Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT l\llonday, April 16, 1973 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 55

April ](,. 197] T.!pC' l 226. The !1011se mc-t at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the- C' .tir. MR. SPEAKFR: Order please! Gentlemen before commencinp today's proceedin?,s it gives me p,reat pleasure to welcome to the ~alleries fifty-two students fron St. Mich~el's Elementary School at Arnold's Cove in thr. company of their teachers Miss Barbara Barrett, ~lr. Willis Wi 1 liams and tfr::. 0. Sidebottom. It r,fves me great pleasure to welcomr. visitors to this honourable House and I trust that your visit here will.be intcrestinr, and informati.vc. HON. T.A. HTCKM.AN(MI!:I<:TF.ROF.JUSTTCE): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to announce to this House that the founding conference of the C:madian Asso<~iation of Provincial Court Judpes and Mar,istraLes will be field in St. John's, Newfoundland from May 2 to May 4, 1973. This conference which is designed to create for the first time in Canada an organization consistinr, of all tlie provincial court .1udgcs an<! magistrates was initiated by the Ne.wfoundland lfa1~:I stra tes' Association and ~yself.

The principal aim of the new orranizat:lon will be to bring about the> hip.t1est degree of uniformity in the enforcement of criminal law throughout Canad;i and to provide a forum for continuing education and discus5jons for all prov1_ncial court judges and m;ip,istrates. A great deal of the work has been p,oin~ on for some timi-, workinr. out thl' details of the foundinp, cr:nfl'rencc- which involves :111 ten provinces pJus the two northern territories. These nC'rotiat.ions w0re carried out hy the president of the Newfoundland Mnp,istratcs' Associatio11, HaRistrate L.W. Wicks, and mysc l f.

T am pl cased to .tclvise tlte House that the proposals have met with a p,reat deal of support from the various attorneys p,eneral in Can.1d.1. I think it is quite s:1 p,nificant that the initiative for this associ.:tti'on has come from the Province of Newfoundland. I feel too, Mr. Speaker, thnt it is quite proper that there should be such JM - 1 an orpanizntion,when one consi.ders Lhat over ninety-five per cent of all

April 16, 1973 T:ipe 1226 crininal cases in Canada ~re tried in rungistratrs court nnd that we must have a vehicle at the nntionaf lPvel to pool the resources· and ~xperience with a view to havinr, some uniformity in the administrat:1.on of criminal, law and.the sentencing that flows from it. ThC' ten attornf'ys r,cnernl plus the representatives of the territories and the ?Hnistcr of Justice in Ottawa have expressed a great deal of support for this proposal. The provincial attorneys r.eneral and the Federal Min:lster of Justice have been invited to attend the conference in St. John's.

I hel:lcve that we will see a very st1·onr, :Input from their departments :ind hopefully from the ministers themselvN: :Into this founclin,: C".onventfon. I felt it proper ~o bring th!!; to th<· attention of honourable r.,embers at this tirr.c. I hf'l:levp that Newfoundland will be able to take a r.rent deal of pride in beinr, the province where for th~ first timr 11 preat nntion:il organiza~ion was conceived Pn~7 hopefully,horn. MOTIONS: MR. Hit:l".HA'.l: Mr. Spc:iker, J have a motion here for the honourable Minister of Forestry anrl Ar,riculture but rathPr than run down with it,I will ~ive it on his behalf.

I give notice that he will ask leave to introduce a b:1.11, "An Act To Amend The. Farm Developmc-nt Loan Ac·t." l!()N J.C. (;HO ;11 IE~TIITSTl-:R OF FTiJN!r.E)_: Mr. ~pcaker, I iive notice JM - '2

April 16, 1973 Tape 1227 that I will on tomorn,w ask ]rave to introduce a bill, •~n Act To Provft!£' r-or The Contr ,>l-()f AlcohoHc Liquor," and a bill, "An Act To Provine For The F.stahlishmrnt Of The Newfoundland Liquor Corporation." MR. S.A. NF.ARY: Mr. Speakc •r, I r,ive notice that I will on tomorrow ask Jr;ive to inlrc,duce the fc,]low:lnr, resolution: W1:rREAS the con!lumer prl ce inde-x as published by Statistics Canada has ar,aln rcvcnl~d th~t the City of St.

John's has been subjected to the hfr,hrst incrrasc in the cost of living among index cities in Cnnada, and WllEREAS it is undouhtedly true that the consumers resident outside St. John's hi!.ve been victim:! zed by similar or greater increases, and WIIERF.AS this escalation wipes out the recommend federal increase to old ar,e pensioners,and

WHEREAS all other pensioners and individuals l:lving on fixed incomes arc driven to desperation in their efforts to survive before the rising tide of :Increased prices for food, housinr,, clothing and fuel, and

WHEREAS even those who have built into their pay scales modest annual increases will find that these are far from sufficient to counter r,allopinr, inflation,and WIIElffAS our present status as the province with the highest 11n<'l"1ployJTIPnt n11<l thc sc·cond lowest per capita income in C;i.nada m;,J,r-~1 snc:-h eroidnn ol- the h11y:lnr, .power of tltc> dollar even harsher !n ft~ lrip.tcl. on the v;ist maRsc-s of men, woml'n and chill ,.-en in thJ~; rrnvincc, THEREFORE nE lT RESOLVED that there be estahl J.shed a select committee of the Housc of AssembJ y to invE's til!;i te, report on and make recommendations on all factors involvE'd h1 escalatinr, costs of products and services in Newfoundland and Lnbrador particularly thosc factors which ar£> in part o: whole controllable within the province itself toi>ethc·r with w;iys and means to lower the cost of r,on<ls nnrl srrvirrs to c:-ons,~rr~ in our province.

JM - I

April Hi, 1973 Tape 1227 MR. 'SPT'Al':l'.R: The preilmhles to t!,c, motfr,n nrr many 1rnd we will hnv1• to rc-v!c·w th,, mo tlon ;1 •, t h,· r,• rn«y bl.' cert :dn matters there which nrerl adjudication. However we wiJ 1 do it as quickly as possible. QUESTim1s: tl_Q:,. G.P::__ OTT f:::JIF.TWR('-fINISTER OF EDUCATION): Mr. Speaker, I would lfke to table the answer to IJUCStion 247 on the order paper of /,priJ 16, 1971.aske<l by the honourable mc•mbrr for St.

Barbe North ,md alno the answer , to 'Jlll"~;tfon ·asked April 10, 1973,by the hrm o ur:i.hl,. 111r:mher for Labrador South. !{P. 1/r:t,P.Y: Whilt number is that? HP.. OTTE!lflE Jl'! ·'. !( : The first one is 247 nnd the second one was in far:t an oral <111<•st1on. W)!l. DP.. A. T ._ Rrll·IE (MPHSTEH OF' lll~ALTII): Mr.

Speaker , I would 1i kc to table the answers to the following questions: number 190 on the order pnper of March 23, 1973,asked by the Leader of the Opposition~ number 191 on the ordC'r p1'pPr of March 23, 1973; number 192, nu mber 197 on the ordc-r paper of M:1.rc:h 27, 1973; number 19P. on the order paper of March 27,1971, all questions asked by the honourable J~adcr of the Opposition . HON. F.. MAYNARI>(MTNISTER 01-' __ Ar.TtlCUI.TURr~ AN!) FORESTS): Mr. Speaker, l would like to table the answers to questions number 60, number 150, number 213 and number 237. ORDERS O'F 'J'IIE DAY : MR. NEARY: Hr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honourable thr. Pri:-mier. ~!oul.d th(' honourable the Pr(' r:der care to make a staternt·nt on the complete withdrawal of ~erviccs at the oil refin('ry at Come by Chance? mm. F.D._ MOOHES(PRF.HIF.R): . Unfortunat<'ly, Mr. Speakc •r, T cannot m:ik1• a cnmplctr st:itrmcnt on ft,as much ;w l would lfJ ;(' to be able to d n r.o. The sltu .,Uon .,t Com<' by Chance is of very i'.r.JVl' ronccrn to tl1e r.overnMrnt ;md to l think just nbout <'V<'ryhody in the> province. Jt is somrth1n _i_: th.,t cvPry emph.,!;fs is bcfnr: r.lven to rfr:ht now ancl :.: 080 JM - 2

April 16, 1973 Tape 1227 hopc-f11l lv thl'TI' wl 11 hc- :t mc>c-tinr. hc-lw1.•c-n thosc- fnvnlved ,in thf' rn'xt f<'W d:ivs,to !~t·r If w,• <","lnnnt comr tn 11 Hntf,:fnrtory rnncluslc,n. Otl,.·r lli.111 1!1.11 tli••rt• l,1 v,·r ·y llttl,• 1·:111 11.1v of 11,·1· I h.111 lo ,,,1v that It !,; In H v,·rv ,.,•rfow; contlft [1>11 und ft h.1,; !w1•n 1•volvf11f'. into this posit ion for quite> some tfrne. The r,ovcrnm<'nt are fully aware of it and are t.1.kinr, t.>hatever steps we have within our power to try to corrc>ct it. IIO_N . ._, f: ._t:f:.. 1<01\l·'.RTS (T.EAllER OF THF. OPPOSITION) : Mr.

Speaker, a suppl<'mf"nt;iry question, Sir. Could the Premier tell us whether Procon hns ~vrved notJce under,! think it is

article twenty-six hut I conJ<I he wronr., the force ma.1eure clause in their contract with Provinci,!l. lluilding r.ompany Limited? MR. MOORE'S: Hr. SpeakE·r, not officially, no. MR. RO!lF.RTS: The Premier said not officially, Mr. Speaker. Doc-s that mean that there hns been some - It is an important question because from the moment notice comes it starts on our account as opposed to on account of Procon. Have they served unofficial notice then? MR. MOORES: No, they have not, Mr. Speaker.

They are trying desperately to find some solution to their substantial problem which in the c-nd ana]y9is is the peopl~'s problem as well or th(' r,overnmcnt's problem, whi.chever way you want tr, look at it. Both Procon .,nd the Shaheen r,roups have been cont.'.lcted by the povernmcnt as have the business agents of the uPion. It is now at a situation where pretty hard r<'asoninp, is r,oin~ to have to take hold. But t~nre has been no official notification of the force ma1eurc clause nor any direct contract with me or anyone else that I know of as such. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Spcaker, . arc the povcrnmcnt contc-mplating the possibil1ty of lcrislative action to end this situation? MR. ~•nnP.ES: ~•<'. Spc>.1Jrrr, J hope .it ii: not necessary. That is th" Lrnt tliirw in th< · wnrlcl we would t.'ant to dG. w.-. .'.lt we are trvln;• tc, cln is r,"t :, ,:l'tll1•m,•nt l,c-twc-c·n th,, r.rn11p~ first. ~081 J~' - l

April 11',, 11)71 T:ip1• 1 TJ7 MJ1. t/1:/\JIY: ~Ir. ::p,·:il 1•1. ,111• "'"!'"' 1,il 1(111': <n111 ln11lrw, or 111 tlif'rc• n nl:11HI 011 i'"'dtlnn """' l11•lw•·••t1 th•· va1·!011•i r,:1rtl1•11? ~H. ~10_01'.I·~·;_: 111•!1-J<•,·n rh,· unions ,ind tl11• c-omp.,ny thPr1• f,q a stand -off position but as far a::; the government 1~ concernC'd t_hC're are about to be nerotiations and talks are about to start to continue again. MR. ~EARY: Between the union and the - !•IR. l{r)l')'P.F.:S: Ee tween the works. ------ MR. ~~. W()Of>11ARD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to <lfrect a question to the Premier.

Would the Premier confinn or deny thnt the r,overnment hnve rcrefved a proposal from Cnna<linn J.,vrlln lo build a railroad in J.ahrarlor, t ri ,fove lop t b£: J11 l ienne 1.akr- iron ckpos its? "P. ~r1r,n,:r;: T c:;in confirm tlint we have n•ceiverl a wire from the pres! dent, r thf nJr. it is, of Cnn:idian .Javelin m,kinr, the r,overnmcnt to put a hill throu~h the House fn order for a railw~y to be built fron Julienne Lake to wherever it ~appens to be.

We have replied to the effect that before ;mything such as that can be contemplate.cl by the p_overnment that we will be asldnr, for much rnnre information as to what benefits are proposed and what the development itself is goin?; to be. We have no dct:tils of wh:1t the development itself j s nor. how it is goinp, to be done. All WP havP is the wf.re rcr.ar.<llng the railw:1¼ I/hen we r;et thr detai.1 s of wl,at is bcinp proposed in total,thC'n of course we will only too g1:tdly sec what n<:c<ls to be donC' rei,,:1rcli nr, that pcrmi s~ion or that act. W)()fJW/..R D: A supplemrntary question, Mr. Speaker.

Does the Pn~l"lier J,nnw when he will have some details in this resrc>ct 7 hill they be in the il!ll'lcdiate futurt? MR. ~()()Rf.S: We received the wfre on Friday, Mr. Speaker, I replied to it this Mnrninr.,:1skinr. for these details,nnd upon receipt of the wire from Canadian Javelin,I will only too gladly make it.11va11:1ble to thr flot1sf>. MH. WrlOfl\·1/\1-:IJ: Anothr,· s11pplr•mr•nt:1ry (]lll''>Lion, Mr. s,,rnkc>r. Would thr Premier r.lv<" snm<> c:onnldf'ratiun,ln thr evC'nt th:it this i,lioul<l m:iter.,Jf7.1•,1u dt·vrloplnp snrr"' prirt In J.ahr.-ido,· for thP sli1pnl('nt of :_; 0 82

April lfi, 1971 iron ore? 11m 11nl 1,1,·111Jonl1w nnv pnnlc11l.1r pl:1cc• 1"01· Liu• pnrl. MR. M1l0!,ES : 1'\1.11, 111. ~\w.,kC'r, is 1wnwthltw T :nn 1-:,ir,• tl1 1ll tlu• developers 1,,:111 h(' mo,;t cor,nlzant of as to which is the best economically and we will do of course what is best for the province. MR. 11.W.C. C.TLLF.TT: ·--··--- --- Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to th<> Minister of Transportation and Communication.

We have a very serious problem in Twillinp,ate,I understand,having arrived home about an hour ago from the mainland, and I am wonderinp, what if ;my dC"cision has been taken by the minister and his dPpartmcnt to close the gap, the very narrow r,ap remaining in the cm1scw.1y :fn Twillinp.ate,so that traffic can p,et to the island. HON. DR. T ._c. _ FARRF.J.T.( -HNISTER OF TRANSPORTATION A~D comn.TNICATIO N): Mr. SpC'aker, in answer to the honourable memher for Twillinp,ate, tedm1 cal ly thr.rc is no possible way of closinr, this r,ap at thc­ prescnt time.

A briclr,<' h;rn to ~o there and actually the two ends of the cmrneway have been of considerably hip,her P-levation for where the brid~e is p,oinp.:. It rnir,ht sound simple to fill in this gap just for an interim period. It is of course a deep plac~ because we have to have this pretty hip,h for boats to p.o through, and it would be unnecessary expense. We went out of our way last year to expedite the construction of this causeway for the people of Tw:fllinP,ate and at the present time,technically,to fill in this NIP thc-re is no possible way.

The bridr.e contract has been let nn<l as soon as possible in the sprinr.,before th:fs cause­ way c:111 hr: c.ornpl<'ted.thif ; hriclge must be built first, Sir. That is th<' ;in~W<'T' right now. MR. G JJ.T.r-:TT: -·-- --- --- A supplr-r.1Pntary question, Mr. Speaker. I understand JM - 5 from the minister thnt it is impossible, impractical or what have you to close the P,np. The contractors told me last year,as he will recall, he suggested in fact closinp, the ~ap last year,temporarily,for the winter,~ecause the problems that we are having today, Mr.

Speaker, I h;ivc hrnu~ht before" his rl~partment, the honourable minister's rlcpnrtmrnt lnst vcar ;inrl told him r xactlv whnt we wer E r.ninP. to h~ fac-c•d wl th •. ,nd now we have it. :.i 083

April 16, 1971 JM - 6 I rc-1w.1t ,,f'.nfn, Mr. Spc-;il«·r, in 11nswl'r to th,1.t quc-stfon from the hon,JUrablc mcmbl'r,that it :ls impractical in ,my way at this particular time. As far as his information from the contractor. I had no knowledge of it at that time- nor now nor since. At the present moment our intentions are to finish the c~useway as expeditiously as possible. We d:ld accelerate and extended our r:ontracts in this arc•a.for the benefit of the people of 'I"willinp,atc- 1 f n thl' p;i~ t yr-a r, :rn far M1 r.xtc-nd f n;'. the causC'way, cluC' to our own feclfni'.'.i of the n:itun· of the pro (Pct.

Thnt is whC're it h; :it th, - pn•:-:Pnt t irn,,. think 1 t woul(l be a nC'Cl•Hsary funds cxocnditurc to fill in thi~ ?ap at the prC'nent time:- This area iF- where boats wU 1 bC' J>cissinf; throur,h where thl s bridr,e is v,oinR and if we fill it in,it will have to be removed later. It is just for an interim period as sprinr, is here upon us rir,ht now and we hope to bPgin as soon as possible to r,et the bridge off the r'.ro11rHI. Th;it is wl,,..,r~ it -ls dr,ht no..-, !:!:-. Tt is :Impractical in my op:! ;iion :rnrl :In the opinion of my officials at tlic prc>sent time. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Spraker, could T direct a ~urstion to the Minister of Tomr:port:1tion and Conmunicat ions? Woulcl the minister indicate to the House whPn the rovernmrnt is roin~ to rc>place th(' famous Manuel',=; f\rid~('? !JR. FARRELL: I am sorry, Sir, but could you give !Tle a little more dPtai 1 on it? Tnf a".Ylous or fmnO\ts? MR. NF.ARY: The infamous or famous for the: safety lt;izards - p:R. FAl\PJ:..!:_T:_: Thate the word priority, Sir. I remember last year, when I was awny,rcadinr many of th<' reports of the IJ011se where the word priority was a very nasty and had word and T do not wl~h to use> 1 t l1crc now. Tl,1!

M:muel 's llrirli•.P is an an·.1 which we fl•c-1 h.,s hC'<'II thl're for !":o many y,•;irs nnd it Ii; :ttn•c · lous, Hr. Spf'ill--<'r, th:it 1t h;is he£"n lrft thpr,- nn lon 1~. 1t fs appallfnr. Tt is ac:tu;i)Jy a scandalo11s situation ;irnl wc- - (In:iudibl .r).

April 16, 1973 Tape 1227 DR. FARRELL: No, no, ,•xc11!'le mr. 1 will tell you, Sir, that thii; IH ,, Top 1·1.111,·r of r-1,,1rt"rn to mv drp:irtrrrnt .,t tltl:1 tlm1• nncl that fr. llw only anr:w1•r I will vlvc nt thin t lmr, SJr. MR. RCIIIERTS: -·-- . -. --- To th~rP snmPthinr. br1nr, donr or nor? DR. FAP.lff l.l.: Well, Sir, I will be doin~ my best to announce this in the very near future,as to whether it is going to be done or not, MR. NEARY: The honourable member for Harbour Main promised a new bridge when he beg~ed for our votes. MR. E.M. WINSOR: Mr.

Speaker, may I direct a question to the honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs? What if any. attempt :Is being mane to get the school bus back in operation in Chanr:e Isl:mds? DR. FARRF.J.1.: Mr. Speaker, is it all rir,ht for me to answer that question? When the honourable member for For.o asked that question initially last week he asked if I had any recent communications from these people.

I have not had any recent but prior to that I had,through the good wishes of the cember from Fogo,met with some students who had brought forward a very interesting, I think he will agree, plan for the area .who tor.ether with him ;mcl these gentlemen who on their own time.who were a university group mostly, had given their time and effort ( I was extremely interested in th1L) ~o the road system in the community, I was quite interested jn it hut it. actually heinl!; an organh:cd community,it had to p:o to !~1nicfpal Affairs.

First of all it was to p,o to the officials of the community and then be rcferr<'d to Municipal Affairs and from there to Hip.hways and we were to p,ct tor.ether on it. At this time we have not offlcially,as far as I know.received it back from Chanre Islands.but we are very interested in the project, Sir, and we will he looking at it very closely when we receive it from an official man or from Municipal Affairs. MR. IH'lSnR: ~!r. Speaker, T appreci.-1te the minister's concern and JM - 7 hfs fr,,nk rmd f{lvo11r.1hle rC'ply. l!mJL•v,·r, tliC' ,;!tu:1tion bC'ini; as it is

April l o . 1'171 now t he hus c-annot opern tc t here nntl ro:whl' ., l ! t t I c m !·no r r crai rs wou l d r,e t th.:it bus bnck t,o tninsror tlnr, th e k1ds hack and forth to ~choo l. Thii:. is th e prohl E'm :it the 11'.r>mrnr, Sir . JM - 8 DR . FAnRf.LT, : t am surf> the- mrmbcr, Sir, hns mor(' know1edr.e of it at this r---- - -- - ·-- p:1rt1 c:11lnr norwn t thnn T h;w c: bu t we arc cr>1·cninly intrrcstcd in it.

The c:h:rnr,es an• m,,jo r r c:il ly fro r, rhr. pl;,n tlrnt was presented to ui::, l do not know but I wJ l1 c:ct·t,, inl y check into it if some mino r repai_n; could he lp the- !lchool hus s:ft11ation at t-his time . I will c<>rt alnly look into :l.t , Sir. MR. \ffNSOR : A 1;upplcmr:11tnry quc·stfon, ~fr . Spr11ker. To my knowled~c thc- rc are _iu~l two or thrr c hiJd stops nt the moP1ent whic h prevent that b us fron oper,1tln;-:. J f tlwy could he t.::ikcn r,-ire of then that bus should hf' r,ble- tc, rc:t h-1rl: on the _ro:i<I until suc:h time- as the minister cnn rcr thr th i n:-: orrn nlzed. ~OiHi

April 16, 1973 Tape No. 1228 NM - 1 nR. FAR~ELL: Urr.radc the road there, Mr. Speaker, I will certainly look into this at this time. ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion of the honourable Minister of Health, A Bill, ''An Act To Amend Th(' MPntal Health Act, 1q71, 11 read a first time, orclcre<l rPacl a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the honourable Minister of ~lunicipal Affairs and Hous for,, A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The City Of St. John's Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

On motion of the honourable Minister of Health, A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Hospitals Act, 1971," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the honourable ~inister of Tourism, A Bill, "An Act Respecting Historic Objects, Sites And.Records," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the honourable Minister of Justice, A Bill, "An Act Further T0 Amend ThE< Criminal Injuries Compensation Act," read a first time, ordered read a second ti!lle on tomorrow. On motion that the House go into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR.

THOMS: (1202-02-08) Mr. Chairman, it occurred _ to me that in every department that has come up so far that computer services fs up ccnsiderahly. This (08) is up somethin~ like $35,000, I was won<l,.rini'. ff the 1~fnist('r could explain this to us. •111. :1,\Y:,Al'fl: The vot(' was there and it wi 11 make use of the data processinr, force we have and also find use for the computer in processinR payrolls and possibly other accountin~ data.

I do not l1ave the exact brc;ikdown on what that entails but the Administrative Services Division say that this amount is necessary ih order to do th~ work that is to be done. ~ffi. T}i(J'-'.S: D:fd the p.:1yroll before ~o throu~'.h computers? :.;os1

Tape ,lo. 122 A "'IR. "":Ar:t- " ri: I have to r.et the actual bren h lown, I do not know why th~ h1r_hC'r vote. Tf yo·u c.ire to pass on,I am trying to get the infomation by telephone from my administrative officer. I will make . it available as soon as I r,et it. 'MR. NEi\RY: (1203-01) ~Ir. Chairman, I am sure that the m.inister will have no problem at all in answerinp, the problems that I am going to put to him. XR. THO'."'S: One second now, the suhhead is not here. MR. NEARY: Are we r,oinp, to carry subheads now, Mr. Chairman1 ~1R, "CHA JR'-!AN: No, ---- -- -- MR. THm!S: lie is not cnrryfor, r.uhheacls?

MR, NF.AnY: Subheads got wipecl out when you were down orr the Burin Peninsula. !-IR. TIIOVS: Oh,on that a11-nir,ht session. MR. NEARY: The titles mir,ht he carryinp, next week, we do not know,but the questjon I am p.;oinr, to put to the minister, h~ will have no trouble at all in answerinz this one. Mr. Chairman, what about llewfoundland Forest l'roducts,what is the problem down there now? Is the mill closed down? How long is it going to be closed? Why is it closed1 Is it lack of planning on the part of the Ncwfotmdland Forest Products or the Tory Administration, or just whnt is the problt-m clown there?

The weather - well if it is the weather, how long is it r,oinr, to be down? ~.MAY~~R!): 'l'here are two reasonfi for Newfoundland Forest Products he1n~. closl 'd down at this time I understand - Numher one is the sprin~ weather, hard road conditions and what not, 8y the way, the mill will close down or the woods operation at least will close down every year around this time. The other reason is that they have equipment whjch they are installing in the mill, new equipment, and they are going to do it over the spring closedown period. AN HmL :-IE: IIER : -- - - · --- How long is that? :.i088 ,I

April 16, 1973 Tape No. 1228 NM - 3 MR. ~IAY~l,\1'.H: I wnul<I think about one month but I have not r.ot the• ,·,. :n-t d:1t•·'l--;1TI Jt. ~m. 1:,i1JJ1'•!.\!:ll: !\,.Jore tl cnrr1c-u, I wo11dt•r 1 f the· ndniHter c-0111<1 inform the committeE' :1s to the c,rnce'.;sioi1 rights in the llawk<'r; Hay Area,of Howatcrs, because of their participation in Nc>wfo1111cll:mcl Forest Products, ~ivinr, the rir,ht to that industry to dP.vclop the timher. or have the rights been turned over to the Newfoundland Forest Products? MR.

MAY~1A~D: The timber limits in the Hawkes Bay Area, at least 11 larr:" port:lon of llowaters timber limits in the lfawkes Bay Area, have been assiRned to Newfo1mdland Forest Product~ for a period of years, as long as eiP,hteen years the original assignment was for. Three of those years have al ready i:onc so there is smother fifteen ye~rs to RO of the assiRnmcnt. This is a straight assignment as far as I know, Legally Newfoundland 'F'oreAt Pronur.ts have complete control of that timher block for the fifteen year period as lonP, as they continue to operate a mill. MR.

W)OD\·:ARD: Mr, Chairman, does this extend b'7yond the Hawkes Bay Area into the Ten Mile Pond Area that way or does it not go over into the Main Brook Area. It does not extend that far, does it now? ~R. MAYNARD: Now, it extends from the area of Bc-llburns to approximately the C,'lstor River, the Castor River watershed. MR. HOODHARD: So Bowa•crs still has a concession on the Ten Mile Pond and the ~ain Brook Area? MR. WM. ROWE: Mr.

Chairman, how is the minister coming on in negotiating with Ottawa on a forestry development agreement~ The minister has announced so far the ap,ricultural one I think or somethinR under ARDA, There was one announced when we were in thP administration, the Mineral Development A~reement,and there was ia1pposc>d to be~ 11ncl<>r DREE .' forcntry dcvc-lopmt,nt agreement as WPl 1. Tlil' way th.it that was tt'nd!ni: w:i:; toward:: settinr. up ~089

April 16, 1973 Tape No. 1228 NM - 4 MR. WM. ROWE: some kind of corportion or other in which the paper companies would participate in order to get good rational control over the timber limits in the province today so that we would not have the same kind of problems as we have had in the past anri now have at present, namely very grave difficulty in getting exchanges with the paper companies with regard to Crown Land on one hand and paper company land on the other. Without ROing into it in any further detail, could the minister give us some idea as to what is going on in the field. Then depending on his reply, Mr.

Chairman, there may be one or two other questions on it. MR. MAYNARD: I would assume. that the Canadian Forestry Corporation is the one that was recommended in the old Royal Commission Report on Forestry in Newfoundland. Aa far as I know, and I have checked back through the files, nothing has ever been done.either previous to our coming into office or since that,on the Canadian Forest Corporation.

The present Forestry Task Force are studying the concept and in their report, the involvements that we have now in forestry.with Ottawa, (1) the forest inventory, the global inventory,which has been completed on the island and will be done in Labrador,and of course the winter capital works programme,but the Canadian Forest Corporation, or whatever the name was, has not been worked on. MR. WM. ROWE: How is the minister coming on with regard to exchanges of various timber limits?

For example,as the minister is aware, there are a number of people in my own constituency, on the Bale Verte Peninsula Are3, where the limits are owned,sometimes right down to the sea,by Bowaters and there are a number of industrious entrepreneurs there who want to have sawmill operations and what not - A. T. White in ~eal Cove,for example. I have not heard from Mr, White now for some weeks, I do not know.if he were successful or not in gettinR a piece of land or getting cutting rights to a piece of land, or whether the govern~ent .ere successful in making some kind of an exchanr,e with

April lo' JIH) Tape No. 1228 NM - 5 'Ill. \J'I. Hll\ll:: l\111,,11,•r:1 Oil It or not. Could the mJn1stt·r let us know whnt the pn~st'nt s1tunt1on is? r..,n p,•r1pl<" w~10 w:mt to set up s:iw mill oper11tions in are11s where the timber limits are controlled or owned by the paper companies, can they expect to be able to use some of this land or not, or is there too great a backlog?

T r<>~ember, I believe just before we left office, the situation ,ms that th<> paper companies had already given quite a bit of timber limits over in exchange,without really r,ettiur, the Crown L anti in exchm1r.1~, 8nd there was a bit of a debt owinr, to the p:ipr.r comp.1nies 0 r.ould the ministrr comment on that? MR. MAYt~ARD: The main problem now could, in as for as exchange!:.: arc concerned. in the backlog that ·BowatPrs proclaJmetl that they had.

We spent some time trying to work out a formula with Bowaters to get the books balanced,if you will, to see-what the government owed them and what they owed government in various places: We have come to an agreement on it but the agreement has yet to be·ratified by Bowaters noard of Directors. The situation is that if and wh(>n Bowatc.>rs Bonrd of Dire>ctors ratifies the formula ancl the ar:reemc>nt we> h:we worked out, we will then he in a position to talk on future exchanr,es of timber: \..'ht re we feel there is a rood chance· of someone like Mr.

White putt i nr. in a viabJe operation, we can then exchange different blocks, But until this has heen cleared off the books and until Bowatcr.s and government were satisfied that one had not caused any trouble for the other or one had not got more advantage over the other, there is very little we can do with further exchanges, As a matter of fact tliL:y would not even talk about it. nut I thfok after the>y do ratify, asstnninr, that they do ratify our arr,•c1111•11t by thc•ir Jlo:ird of Din•ctorf:, ·we> will b1• ahlr to talk on ;,n ••:-:ch.mrP b:1!;ls. \fr can with thr othrr paper comp;rnl<>s.

J'rl," ::,,,.,,r,,,111dlan<i have t:11ked \dth 1:11.• on an cxch:1n1·,<' hasis. As a matter· :i091

AprJl Hi, 1973 Tnpt- Nn. 1 ;•;?R m, - 6 couple of months. ~~- Tl!O!-!S :_ 'Ir. Speaker, I wond.er if the mi ni!l ter could elaborate on the a~reement between the Newfoundland Governrr.ent and the Federal Government in relation to the task force and the study of forestry resources of Newfoundland. Personally I beUeve that we are possibly settin~ a very danr.erous precedence here. If we are allowinr, the federal r,overnment to encroach upon our forestry, that is to control any portion of our forestry in t:ewfoundlan<l.

Now the federal P,overnr-ent is al] there to jump in today and to control every tree which we !,ave on the island. I do not believe that we should allow this. I am v1und.ering if allowing them to undertake or to take

part in this task force on the study of our forestry, if we are not possibly endangering our right here. TI1~n arain I am wondering if i!: is necessary because I believe our forestry has been studied, surveyed time and time again and I am quite sure in the minister's department he can find plans, he can find photo~raphs of every trre on the Island of Newfoundland anrl on the Mainland of Labrador, I am wonderin~ if the minister could comment on that for us. HR. H!:..Y:iAR!~ Hr.

Chairman, I am not quite sure what the honourable mernher means when he says the federal p.overnment are anxious to take over control of the forcotry :In :'iewfo11w!land. To my knowledge, we have never received any ind:lc;ition that the federal f•.overnment wants to assu~e control of the forr> s t resources in this province.

As far as the t;isk force is concerned, we do consider it hir,hly n<>cessary to set up a ta'.;k force on the forest industry in the province because the stu<lJr~ that had Leen done before had never brPn nr.tP<I upon hy th!' prcv!ou!; ndmJnistral fcin n o!" : 1:1°; otl:c·r ;:c,-.•c: " : t•11t f.ncludinf'. us. For thP rrio•;t part, tlwy 'W<'rc criticized very hlr;hly hy all a:;p(•Ct8 of the fore:1t :Industry, prlv;ite an,! puhlic, Ttw Tf'ason for rf:'tti11r, tl11• federal pE•opl«.i involved w;1s simply

/\pt fl II,, 1'"171 T111•c· No. l ;>:,11 NH - 7 "'-'., ' 1,\~': :\l:i >: tli :11 ll1<•y hacl u J, , 1 of e x p,·rtJ,:,• :,s wl'll as,. ,. u11n:i · J ·,.•, : ln thL· 1 l~·ld of fon •,,c ry.

Their pl:'ople have bE'en most helpful and most co-opC'rative and I am sure that it will be much more beneficial to us if in ' the future we have to go to the federal government for nssistance either directly or indirectly in relation to the forest industry. ~owe thour,ht it very advisable and very wise to keep them jnvolved and I do not sec any erosion of our rir'.hts or control over the forests of Newfoundland by setting up such a task force. ~R. TIIO'IS: 111r. Spenker, I wonder could the minister tell us what benefits we are goinp, to receive from this task force.

What is it going to tell us or what do we hope it will tell us? Will it give us some direction as to control of our forests in the future? ~. MAYNARD: Mr. C~~irrna:.., we arc hoping and we feel very certain at this time that the task force will enable the Government of ~cwfoun<lland,for the first time in its history, to take a sensible approach to the development of the forestry in Newfoundland for years to come. MR.

MAPTJN: I am sure the honourable minister is as aware as Jam of the practices the paper companies use in harvesting,up-country where they are not under the scrutiny of the forest services as much as they might be elsewhere. I am referring particularly to tht cases where they just drive the road in throu~h, take the most economic stands o_f timber on the way by and make no attempt to salvaRe the less economic stands. I am wondcrinR what the depnrtment is doinR to enforce bettl~r m:m.1r,cmcnt and control the boundary h;1rvesters of our forest lnnd?

MR. ~J\YNARn: Thi s is one of the nrt-.1s that have been studied by the task force, Mr. Chnirma~. Ar,ain I feel certain that they will have so:cr- very spc•cific and concrC'te stH',gestions as to wh:1t we should <lo with forest m:rnar,emcnt. We are certainly

April 16, 1973 Tape _No. 1228 NM - 8 MR. NAYNARI>: not ignoring the problem. We know it is thf'ra and we will do something about it, MR, ~L\RTIN: Under the present legislat1on, is there any way in which the department can force these companies to take all of the marketable timber and all the marketable wood as they pass through or can they leave anything at all? MR. ROBERTS: Arc yott talkiit& about private timber holdings? MR. MARTIN: Any timber holdings - private or public, MR.

MAYNARJ): The acts - the Bowaters Act and the Price Newfoundl.-:u1d -------- Act, or Anglo Newfoundland De·.,,C'lopment Corporation,whatever it was, anyway the acts which applied to both la1:ge companies, stated in a vague sort of way that they were to practice good forest management but if they do ~ot,.:here is no legislation whereby we can really force them to do this on their timber lj_mits. They, as you know, have a substantial amount of the forest land of the province tied up under the licence l imi.t, MR.

MARTIN: It means then that there is a large air.ount of our timber stands or timber lands over which we have no control whatsoever. MR. MAYflARD: At this particular. time, ye11. MR. WOODWARD: Maybe the minister can inform the committee when he expects to make j t public. l'as tl,e report been firishcd by the task force on forestry? WhPn will it be made public. MR. MAYNAR'.): No, I am afraid I could not give a date to the honourable member when the report will be made public, That would have to be determined by government.after particular study, MR.

THO~S: Mr, Chairman, I wonder could the minister inform us if there is any reforestation progr3mme in exlstence or is the department planninr, one? I am thinking particularly of the Great Northern Peninsula and Labrador, wl1cre as you reali?:e, Sir, thr natural reforestation is much lower than it is on the southern portion or even the central portion of our island, :i094

April 16, 1973 Tape No. 1228 NM - 9 •. HR. Tlffl'1S: In Labrador it 1~ vrry, vrry slow and with the n•sul t of cour~:t• tlie lt1nr.th of r.rowth up th,.re will take lonf,,·r than it 11111 on u,.. island. Tlwt is, if it takes seventy years for a spruce tree to mature on the jsland, it will pui;sJbly take a hundred to one hundred and twenty years in Lahra<lor. Now I just picked these two figures out of the air. They are approxjmate I know. Could the minister inform us if there is any reforestation programme in existence? MR. MAYNARD: You asked specif!Lcally about the Northern Peninsula and Labrador Area.

The problem with growth there is not the rep,cncration or new trees coming up in the cut-over areas and "1hat not, it is the problem of climate. If "1c planted trees, it could not cause any faster r,ro"1th than if they evolved naturally in that area. It is a matter of climate,which I am afraid we are not going to change. MR, MARTIN: I know that it was back in 1966, I believe, the Canada Land Inventory was started. I understand that since then a part of that inventory has been cancelled or cut out some way or another. Can the honourable minister tell me what

part if any has been cut out and "1hether or not the recreation sector and the agriculture sector of that inventory have been completed or dropped altoRcciier. :-m. MAY:,ARD: /\re you talking about the province as a whole? I am advis,•d that 1n rcr,ards to Lahraclor, all the 1nventories have• b,.!en dcf Prred with th~ exception of th,· forc•st jnvl~ntory. The fon:!it invc nto;·y aspect of the land inventory 1s still ongoing. It will take anoth1~r couple of years to fjnish.

As far as the island is conct'rned, I believe I am safe in sayinr, that all the otl,er asi,ccts have bcsen complctc·,1 jn rC'p,ards to the island but for some reason or another and I am not sure why the aspects such as recreation and· so un and so for~i have bc£'n deferred on ciie Lahrndor /\rcn. :;095

April 16, 1973 Tape No. 1228 NM - 10 MR. M,\RTT:J: Mr. Chalrm;m, I wonder if tin: lao11i1urahle mi.n ls,ll\l" --- •aa - • .. would 1111cll•1·takt! to fi11<I out for tlw llow;c c>·.ictly wlaat is the e,tatu:1 of the C.111ad.1 I.and Inventory with re1;pect tu Labrador, whether or not the deferrals will be lifted and that inventory will go ahead and whpn? :'fR. ~IAY~;_\!-!!J: later date. I 1,uuld be glad to and make a statement at a MR. THOMS: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder could the minister inform us as to whether the money that was loaned or guaranteed by the government to ~cwfoundland Forest Products is within these est1matcs? In what departmL,nt can we fincl that? MH. MAYNARD: Industrial Ucvclopmcnt. MR. TIIO:'.S: Jndustr 1:al Dcv"loprncnt . Could the minister tell us why it is not wf thin thc'lc C!Htfmatc!i? MIL HAY:':~IW:_ It is a ma.1or industrial d~velopmc _nt and it is not r.or.-,ct!d:i;; th ~.t woul<l come under my department. it would 1::ither come under In4ustrial Development or the Department of Finance. !1R • '1.

RO':.'E: -------- I probably missed the department now, What about the woods operation for Newfoundland Forest Products? Is that under industrial development or forestry? The woods operat1on for Newfoundland Forest Products. MR. MAY~i/\RD: In Goose or !fowfoundland Forest Products? NR. F. R0WE: In Hawkc:s Bay, Newfoundland Forest Products in Hawkes .Bay.

What I am asking is wl:at department does it come under, the Department of Forestry and Airiculture or Industrial iJevelor,r:t,nt - the lh.wkes J:ay operation? !·!?.. )A.J._'{;:.:..!'J~ Essentially I suppose the whole thing would come under ti~ Dc:partrnent of Industrial Development. Since the woods operation is on company limits, the Forestry Division of my department would not have any direct influence or control over or anything to do with it. MR. F. ROWE: Would the minister, Hr.

Chairman, undertake to supply the corir..ittce with a list, one list,1dving a hr(•akclown of the ,°1pplicnnt,;, the .ippllcations that W<'re made for the 1,mods operations ~OH6

April 16 , 19 73 T;ipe No. 1228 MR . F. Rm·1::: appl lc:mts, tile applications that were made for th ew ods operatio n,; nloni;: with their names and addresses and NM - 11 a list of the ~ucc, ·ss ful :1.pplicants and could the minister supply the same list for hi.! mill operation that 1s in Hawkes Jlay? Applic a liuns to wor~ in Ll1e woods, I might have missed it under Industrial IJ •\' •lo : L•nt. MR. M,_ y ·~ RD: I do not know if that is possible. HR. N'EARY : \,!!•at my colleague is getting at here, Mr.

Chair man, are the subcontractors, ln the case of the Newfoundland Linerboard, for jnstance, th~y have farmed out contracts Lo people on the Great ,!ortl1em Peninsula and it may be just a 1nntte r of coinc ide nce but t he minister will admit, you know,th.lt it is becoming like a family .3ffair, the thin~ on the Great Northern Penin sula. You huvc the Manaw.i r o f the \ewfoundland Lincrboard,

T1tpE' 1229 PK - 1 hrothrr of the> Minf~ti:>r,cuttfn p pulp ,,•ot:'l<l down in th<> Grent Northern rrn1m:ul11.

All my rolle.iii:11r 1!: doinr: l,c•re ie ,rnl•lnP. for n list of contrnctorH - :.11hrontrnct:n1·:11. :MR, NEARY :_ Subcontractors on thr Crrat Northern l't'ninRula,cuttin~ wood for Ncwfouncll,md Forest Proclucts or for the- Newfoundlnnd Lf.nerboard? 1 c.'.\n attc-ll'pt to pPt it hut it may talre some time !:'11_,_y.o~JI·~ .. !'_. __ B_._ I ,-mule! like to make> it pt:.'rfectly clear what I am really lookinr. for is a list of the peoplC' who sought employment in the woo·ds operation, whether it was throur,h subcontractors for the Newfot1ndlancl Forest Products or the- Linerhoard Mil 1, and a list of the peoplc> who were succC'ssful in raininr- employment in the woods.

That mir.ht takt> a bit of time but I would appreciate that list because I am really concerned hl're about whC>thcr or not the people, for instance in the Castor Rivrr Rnsin Area,nre p,ettinp, a fnir nnd squnrc dc>al, I am not sur.r.ci-tinr: thnt they arr not, hut whethPr thPy are ~etting a fair c.nd ~quar..- clc-a] wlth rc-i::pc-cl to c-mployme>nt with tht•se opP.rat1ons. ~!_._.!.~.JJ:!_~_R.P_: J wil 1 have to ask the company for th11t information. ~. R01·!F.. F. 1'1. Ye~, Well,could the- minister undertake to r,et that infonnation. Mr. Chairman? On motion 1203-01 carried. On motion 02 carried. ~fR. POWF., W.N.

Mr, Chairman, 03- t!otor Vehicle Acquisition, why is this down c' 1•:ell ,is :It hecause th('re were a ii:reat nUJT1ber of vt:.'hicles last year and they are not needed this year? What is the problcm1 Why is it do1,,m1 ~R.:..."'!'2'Jl_A_P,_!)_:_ \-1(' have .1ust cut had somc>what on the nu!'lber of nc>"' vehicle~ to hP. acquirrd rlurinr: th1R ycnr, Mr. Chairm1:m. '!:'.hc>re is no pnrt:lr.ul:1r re;u;on othC'r than prohnhly a little> hit of a strinp,rnt hudrc-t. !•IR • DOODY : Jnnurlib]e, --- ----- On motion 03 carried. ~098

April 16, 1973 Tape 1229 PK - 2 r-1R. f.P.A 1R'1AN: Sh:ill 03-01, Har.es and Expense>s of Forest Survey PartiPs 7 carry? t-lJL M. l!ARTIN: Th'-' honourahle minister has already told us that the> Canada Land Inventory has completed its operation on the island. I am '-.·onderinp, llC'rr, ns the wap,cs and expenses of forest survey parties are away up, almost thrc-e till'PS, more than thr<.>e times , what is going on w:fth forest surveys? ttR.

MAYNArn: The increase in expenditure there this year as in a couple of other placC's is because of the winter capital works proi::ramme which was work<.>d out with the federal r.ovcrnment. I have some notes on it hE'IE', Mayhe I can r,et some more dc:>tails but that is the bas:! c reason for 1.t. The assi:-ssment pror,ram11e is essential in order to provide the> forest service wlth the> informat:!1;m, location. quality and quant:lty of timher required for sawmill and pulp wood operations.

The work donP under that particular vote:> will be :Increased a considerable amount this year as a rc-sult of s:lp.ninr, the winter cap:lt&l worka pro~rammc:> with the federal government. This by the way has nothinp. to do with the inventory that - AN HON. HP1BER: Inaudible. ~- HOODWAPD: Mr. Cha:!rman, is it possible that the minister could supply thC' committc>e with a list of wirrter works parties in any of thf" particular arC':is that thc-y ::ire workinr:? Would there l,e such R list? Ia th:fs imposs:fhlP to p,c:>t?

I am thinking in tcrr:1:; of th,, p:1rtie'..' J lst ::incl how mnny parties ancl in what areas of the pr~v:lnce they are? Is this "rorki 1';', - ~1 P. ~tw::t-nn: llov much of n hrc-akcl01 -m is the:> honourahle mc>mher askinr, .. . ··- ·- for, Mr. Chai man? lie wan ts the> information I assume> as to Phere p;irtic:>s arc- working now and hm, ];irr,c. !'ow many p1'!rti c-s ,mcl what areas thc-y are working in. 'IP.. ''AYr'Afm· At this presc-nt timC'. '!R. \.!OO!ll·.'M{D: 1 nss11,;-c> th.1t the 'punhrr of Part1c>s Fould he:> twelve, or 'fiftc-t>n ,·nlllcl ("OV<'r tl•,'lt r•c:ri0nclit11re.

But :ff he could gc-t the loc:.ition ancl th(' nu1,1br•r of p:irt1c><-: tl-at we h,,vc> l••orl·inr on thr isl:md :.;099

April lh, ]<J73 T:ipe 1229 PK - 3 and in 1.ahrador? rm. ".,w~:,\P.n· Gc>ne>r.tlly T .tm advisPd th.1t th<'rc- nre> e:lr,ht parti<'s with four men <'ach. They arf' r,enerally in the ;ire>nR of the Avalon PPninRula , G~nder. South µc>st Rrook nnd Ste>phe>nvtlle> hut ther<' are none in l.nhr.idor. MR. 1-IARTT~-l · sometimes? /fr. Chai nnan, are they rc>r,ul.ar staff? Are they part-time or I am ratl1rr confusPd here hec:tuse if this is in connc>ction 1d th the> l'.intc>r C;:ip·t ta] Works Prof?ramme.

I run at a lost to undC'rstnnd how it :Is tlint we can hnve forest survey party wages included under the Winter Capital Works Programme, I know there is a relationship but I am sincc>rc>ly confmied · on it. The> pr·plr :Involved , the> diffC'rc>nt parties and the per>p 1 c> who ~1Rh' up thr pnrty nrr> hi r<'d on for this particular pror,rammP, thry are not pennan,:,nt 1>taff. They nre a ve>ry tC"mporary staff. On moti.on l ?n1--n1-n1 cnrdC'd. Om mot:lon 03-02 throur.h 03-03 carriC'd, ~R_,._S_HAI_R?fAN_·_ Shall f1J-04 carry? !:1J! ~.!5_:- !_H_O~ S.: 1-lr.

Cha:! rman, I notice that tM s vote is cut in more than half, The protc>ction of our forC'st is dC'f:lnitely a pr:1.or:i.ty as fnr 'ls I Rm conc€'rned. I am wonderinr why we are cutting this in half.

Do we> not expP.C t to hav,:, fore>Rt f irrs this yc>ar or. whnt iR the r.tory on thnt? t-fR.nAYN/IPn: Jf I rc>nf'l'•l1C>r corrPctJy, tlwt iR nhnut thC> nonnal aJlocatJon that is rnndr rach yrnr for forri:;t f:lrP protrct1on hut some yrars we> f!O m11ch ovpr thnt and somt> ycnrs wr come within that votr. l.a!'lt yQar the ~11ocation was c>xcc>P<lcd hv SRn,onn on account of 1:lr,rteninp firrs in Lahrndor,'1- .•hich !"nde> up for thC' hirher Rmount herr , the revisc-d c-stimnte.

It is possil ; le that our revi<;cd c>stimatr s this ve>ar corninp; up mip.ht hC> S2r'lfJ.0(J'l, it r1ght be below S6r'l,!'l()n or whatcvE>r. Rut that is thf' normal aMount to put in there and tbcn we> havC' to,unfortunately.play it by ear and hope> that is not po:lnp, to he that bad. ~1r. rha:ln:ian, I am 'l-ion<lPr1nr: hc>re - I recall a few yE'ars ago WP h:1d a forest firr on the> Lar,rador.-Ouehec Border, 1ust inside of :_; 10 0

April Hi. ].Q7) TnpP ]229 PK - 4 the> T.:ihr;ic!or_ hor<ler. A rr><]uc>st Pas m.1dc> to - mayhe it was the other way arouncl, ft was on th<' Ouc>hPc hordc>r nnd a rc>quc>st was made'to the GovernMr.nt of !Tewfoundland and Labrador to lend assi1itance, and that- :,articul:ir rC"ouc>st w1s turned dm-m, t:r to that point there had been sort of a loosC' reciprocal arranr,ernt>nt, nothing official, but it was a workable arranp.crnPnt whereby we would lend mutual assistance, I am won<lerinr, wheth<>r or not there is any such a?,reement,worked out officially,hctwC'cn the tFo rrovinci:il p.ovcrnments now? MR.

MAYNARD: As far as I know, Hr. Ch.1:l.rman, we have> an arranr,<'m<'nt, lt is not a fonnal thinr, n0 r a sir,ned docum<'nt' nor anything but we do have an non-written arr.,nr.ciml:'nt whr.re>hy we cl1c>rish other se>rv:lccs. On motion 03-0~ carried. ~ -• CHAIR~!AN · Shall 03-05 carry? MR. P, s. TPOMS· 'I-Ir. Cha:!rman, I wonder could the minister trll us what kind of forestry consc>rvation we> are talkinp_ ahout here and whereabout :In the province> is this heinr, carried out? MR.

MAYNA'PD: The forest consrrvat:1 .on dcvelop111ent vot<' is up, ar,ain as a result of the Winter C;i.p:l.tal l·!orks Programme and an expanded proi;i;ramme :!.n reforestation. We are into the first phase of dc-velopment of Forest Nurf;eries, started in 1972, izenerally expanding the reforestation as a result of the ~-!:Inter C"'-rital Works PropamMc. We have a list here, the> la cation of the> work; Forest ~mprovemcnt, pre-commerical th:lnninP,, plantation thinninr,, fertilization and on and on. Inaud:lh] c>. '-fP. l'-IAY~IARD · Well partically by forg:!veness on the labour content.

Then there is reforestation, the nursery mainly,which we will be into this year on a l'lUCh larper scale. ~•R. HARTIN· tlr. Chainnan . I won<ler if the honour ah] e minister could trll us what k1n<l of a consc•rvatfon pror,ral'lme do we have and thC' <'ducation involvc>d in tlie schools pC'rhaps, If there is a programme desir,nc-d to he intC'izrat<:>d :l11to the school curriculum with rerard to

April 16. ] ')71 Tapt> 122'> PK - 5 forest conservat:lon? And wl1c>ther or not thc>rc is anyth:lnp- in the act that allows for a private ind:lvidunl to ta~e up a cC'rtain area of timher land and harvest it and farm it,so as to speak,with any k:lnd of r:ovc-rm•C'nt -a5s1stancc>? MR.

MAYNARD: I do not quite understand the second question which was asked. lie was '!.skinp, ahout the deve>lopment of private wood lots or acquirtnr: woocl lotfl on a private hasis for dc>vc-lopmc>nt? l~TT. l!ARTTN: Ancl wl1C'thc>r or nnt tl1Prc• fs any p,ovcmmt>nt pro~r:tTl'ITIC' dP.s1tmN1 5pC'cffic.r ll.y for the• dc-vC'lopmPnt of private wood lots? :m. !~AYNARn: :!n we have- no providon undC'r th€' act whereby this is done>. As far as the> 1nformnt:lon rmd rd11cation in the schools arc concc>rnC'cl our off:lci:i]s arr avnflab]e on request from any school,at any t:lme,to take part :In this sort of a thinp..

Sometimes the requests nrC' very mi.n:lmal and other times thrre are a number of requf'sts. nut it is on request only,:md we are available to do 1.t. !f_!!~_'J.:!1_0~!~:_ ~Ir. Ch:tirrnan. the 1n:ln:lstc>r mc>ntionC'd a trer nursery, I wonder if ht' could tell us whC'rP. this nurRc>ry :Is and what type> of tree>s Are w:lthin a nur!l<.>ry? All'lo he> mf'nt1.onC'd fertil1':at1on. I wonder could hr C'xplain this to us. I mt'an what type> of fert1 lization are we carrying out? "'R • MAY!:Arm • The tre>e nurRc>ry 1s in Bishop's Falls, in Wooddale Are>a.

ThC' fc>rtilization is hr:fng done :In Gander, Bay d'Espo:lr, Lake Bond and ltocldickt0n. •Ap_. TJT()!IS '. !!ow is he doing this prop,r:trrrmC'? Frrtilization pror:rammr? !fR. MJ\Y'!Arn • What does the honourable member mean? MR. 'J'IIOH~: '1.-lhat is he doing7 Putting fertilizC'r on thP land? How i.s h(~ doinr, 1 t? By plane or m~nuaP y~ !~P.. !'AY~IAPO· Tt :Is ;i rmnun] thinr.. !·IP. Tf'ri:•s: lt 1<: rt rn,inunl tldnp. Ts thfs on nn expC'r:fmrnta1 hnsfs or i:'3 it overall? four different areas. It :Is fairly <'Xtc>nsivc> over a larp,C' number of

April Hi, 11'171 PK - 6 ACrc>s of. l:md. Hr. Chnfrn1m. could the mini.stc-r explain to UR whnt r1Pthod \.'C' .,n, mdnr hrrC'~ An• W(' tnJ,fnr, n 1':-w out and tl,rowlnJ'. the> fC'rt i 1 i zPr on thP r.round'? Have we vehicles r.otnr. or whnt? JuAt tell us what the rro1~r~inm1C' 1s all about, A'!i !'ON. PF~ll',El'I· (l11;111t!iLJc) MR • rno:-1s : ; !R • CHA JR~!A N · MR. MAYNARD· No, lwcause all the manure spreads are :f.n your district. Order, please! They are not takin?, a bar, Mr.

Chairman, and flicking the fertilizer out, dot hy dot or piece by piece and Rpreadin~ it around, They are using some kind of hand equipment which I do not understand vPry well but I think it is somcthinp, similar to a !':Pe>dinp, m;-,ch:lne. a hand seeder. The fertilizat:lon programme was started a couple -of years np,o and it has hcc-n done on a fairly extc-nsive basis. Tt :I fl manual• l t is not done from pJ anC'fl • AN HON.

MF.MRF.R · It :Is done hy the hi rds ancl the- hers. }ff{. ~AYNA!m • HR. '.MARTIN : - ---- - by the- birds and th<' bC'es , I wonder if thc>se two prop,ramm<'s,thc reseedinr, and fertilization,are being carried out on privatrly held land or on crown land { If it is he:fnp done on private land whether or not the companies are standing any part of the rxpc-nses? }!R. }1AY:"lA RD· On crm!Il J and only. In rc>rnrd to P.ishop's Falls nurst-ry,what type- of trees are necessary! What type of sec>cll:inp:s arc> 'WC' u,c;:fnr? Eir,hty P<'T crnt black sprucC', fiftrC"n per cPnt white ,c;prucc> and the rC'mainc..r>r - '.fP.

TJT()~!S • When thc-sc> sc>edlinrs com£' to howC'ver tall they have thC'm p;row, where dn they p:o fr011 thc>rc>? What :1.s the plan for theM? Thc>y arr rep] antr-d, The arc>a is worked out whC're we are> r.oinJ!; to plant the>m. !'Tl. Tl!OJ'.S :_ Repl:mtecl whrrC' now? And on whose land? The, ac-tu.1.l :1rC'as w!lC're the> sc>c>dlinrs will he transplanted hi1VC' not hC'C'n wor1'c-d out. 1 t w11 l take> thrc>C' or four yc>ars for thc>m

April 16, lfH3 Tape 12i~ PK - 7 to y.c>t to thr point whrrP they can hr trnnsplnntPd. ~o thAt iR hC'inp 11tu<liC'd now hy the off1dnls Emel :lt will hP workPd out at thnt timt'. MR. nrnr,~ Within this nur11c>ry pro~ramml'!, 111 thl're nny co-orl'ration hetwec-n the two larpe forC'stry companies like Price RrothPr11 and Bowaters in this or any monies spent by these companies into this programme? ?-IR. ~AYN/.RD: No. ~THot 1S •. None" whatsoC"ver? They are not taking

part in any of it? ?-IR.~~NA'RD: No. It is strictly a government programme. On motion 03-05 carried, MR. THO~S: Mr. Chairman, n3-06, could the minister explain this one to us? 1'"R • MA Yt!ARD : Forest Inventory? Mil. THO~~ Forest Inventory. ~AYNp.RD: This is thl' on-go:fnP, forest inventory progral'l'll!le with the federal ~overnment. T~e island,AR I said,hns been completed, That is a r,lobal type s~rvey. There is a two year extension. The extension has heen approved,has it? AN HON. MF.MBF:R: Yes. MR.

MAYtlAl!D: Then• is a two year exten11ion now to do the Lahrador Area, it is a federal-provincial cost-shared programme. MR. TPOMS'. This is the pro~ramme where·you brinr, in a map and you can tell exactly the volume , let us say.within a given area. ls that rir;ht? ~R • ..!'!_r_!.P.Y_.:.. !low much nf this fs recoverable from the Government of C:anacfa? HR. ?fAYNARD: ,:inety per cent. MR. NT'ArY ~ Ninety pc-r cc-nt recoverable. On motion 03-06 carried. Shall 03-07 carry? :i104

April 16. 1~73 Tapr ]72~ PY - 8 ••r.. ''T'.!'i:Ol\· ~Ir, Chairman, woulcl thr Minister rxplain. On forest firC' equipmE.>nt, tber?~C'Pns to bC' a round-about there. Last year the c>xr>Pnrli tnre was $35,NlO, this year it is $220,0()0 and we find forC'st ffrp protectjon doPn half of what it was last year. How dors thC' mjnister account for that? MR. r<.,WtiARD: Host of tl1£> increase> is due to a change-ovrr of the radio tc>lephonc> system usc><I hy thc> forest fire Rervice.

We. are chnnr,inr- ovc>r f ror1 thc> o] c1 HF sys tern to a nc>w VHP1 systc>m ~ which I think will cost approxirnatrly $170,000 or thr-rc•nhout. P.ut thr- old rarl:lo P']uip1nrnt ir. fettinr: old and worn out and it had to he rC'p]acrd and wr had to do it this year. ~•P. Cll/1 T'f?~'A~l · The Chair recop.nizcs the mPmhPr for Lahtador South. } 1R. MARTTN· Thank you, ~r. Chairman. I think this is probably the subhead under which we should discuss the water bombers.

I wonder if the minister could tell us exactly what the status of this fl~et is at the moment. how many aircraft ~:c havP? 1:rhether or not ~;e should expect to replace some of thc>m in the near future? Who docs the maintenance? Whether it is done hy p,overnmcnt employers or whether it is contracted out? There are five water bombers at thr present time. 'J'hc work is done on a c0ntract hasi!'I with i\,tlantic Aviation who has hc>en rloinr, the maintenance work for all tl1P r,ovrrn~ent Aircraft.

As far as replacl.'mPnt is concc-rnrd thcre.,unforttJnately or fortunately, I do not know which, there Js no nircrnft nn the market 1dthi11 a n.asonablc pd c<" ranr:e that can take the place of the old Canso. They arC' r,oinr, to he a very. vrry difficult aircraft to replace althouRl we will have to find a replacenent sometime but certainly not this year. AN HON. Mn•BER · Or in the forsPeah le:- future. On motion n1-n7 carried. On motion 03-08 carried.

MP. ('.!'~11:•11\'!· ~hall 03-n'l cnrrv? 'IJ'. r1t"'TP 1 : T .1m wonclerfn1· ff thC' ::ifnfstPr could tC"ll u~, hC'Tc> C'x,,rtly who thC' r1,,rl tfmp l.111111,Pr l\tirP:111 arc a:,,: wh~· wt, shotJld he giving :; 1 ii 5

April lf., l ll73 Tape 1229 Pk - 9 them ~2n.OOO? NR. ~•/IYW\T'ID• 1-'ell the ~!aritil'le Lumber Bureau is a more standards bureau for the production of lumber in the }1aritime provinces affiliated with the Canadian Lumber Association. Canadian Standards Association. · It is sort of a standards group and this $20,000 is an annual ~~ant. lt is a share of their operatinr. budr,et, The other provi ncc-s, ~fova Scot:! a and New Brunswick ,share in the operation of :It as wc>l.J. On motion 03-09 carried, ~.

CHA IR.MAU: ------ Shall 03-10 carry? l!r, Chainnan, maybe the minister can :fnfonn the committee in ~hat areas of the province this money is beinp. spent this year and the amount,1f he can brea~ it do~'Tl. ~- ~:AYN/\RD: That is only for maintenance. Mr . Chairman, this $75,000 is for maintenance of forest access roads. The arPas that it wil 1 be spC'nt in will depc-ncl on where the nf'st snow :Is and where thr moot operators are.

MR. lJOODWARD · Wt' 11 - ·---- ----- he has not determined yet where the money is ~oinp. to he spent? ~- MAYNARD:_ We cannot until the people start operatinp,, when the snow starts fallinr.. 1-'R. MARTHT· Where are these access roads? Are they apart of the road systeM that Price and Bowaters use or are they the small operator roads? !!_R-!.._1'!!>,YNAR_D_:_ Wc>l l these> access road~ are on crown land territory, We do not Tl'aintain any access roads for either one of the two lar~E' companies. MR.

TJ1m1s :_ ~Ir. r.ha1 m:m, in a case where a cht·p haR a r,rant or a pemit to cut on Bny flm-mtrrH or AND, the- dC'partml'.'nt will kc><'p roads maintainc>d for him. will thc>y not? It il'l _1ust not strictly confined to crown lands? ~11?, "t-1/1.YNAPn: If where> he is cuttinp.: has bec>n exchanr,e<l and it is --·----- essentially then undc>r r,ovc:>rnrne-nt control, thc>n we will rna1nta1.n the ' ,. ~ ·, 6 ;J .l ~-

April 1r,. lQ71 Tapf' 12?CJ rr. - 10 11ccf'SS roarls hut 1 f ht> is c::ut t inr. on a P.ow:1 tt>r or Price> lot nncl the- road runs throurh th~ir tc-rrority and he- is obviously st>llin~ -the wood to tht>w,w<.> do -not r,!:'t involved in the maintenance of that road. '-'R._ Jj~O~•:~-· :lo. no, not only to th0m but he is taJ.:inr the wood himself and producing :ft. 'IP. P}Y: '.\PJ') • Pell :In th:i t case he would have to have an exchanP,t: hnHis.

Lssentially that hloclr wo11.l rl hecoJT1t' crown land hf'caui::c- anotht>r block has been g:fvc-n to Rowatc-rs or Pricf' in return for it, P.ut strictly speakinr, it is a crown land prop,ramme. ~•~ • T!IO~I~ : 0;1e cannot ct•t wood on othc-r pc-op le' s property. ~'R • MA YNATm · --·----·- MR. TPOVS: ------- HR. M/\YNARI): ·--- •--4 --• We co•:ld I supposP - T,et us put :ft this way - they have We have? MR. MAYr-iARD: Well not to my knowledge. MR. THOMS: Okay. Good c-nourh. On motion 03-10 carrit>d. On motion 03-11 carrierl. MR. NFARY· ~r. Chai rmon, not carr:f t>d.

T "'ould J1 ke to pet an explanati .on of th<' capital arnount of $75'1,00(J, of wltlch $(,25. 000 is capital• to he> l'.pc>nt down thrrc> 1n thr Grofl "'orne National Park. I would 1 iJrc> for the> m:fnister whfl<' h<' is pivitir: us a rundown of that 0 $750, nno, if ht> would also inform th<' committee h<.>cause I was not quite clear the.othrr day whrn hr mndc- his ministerial statemt>nt in the House on th£' /:',ros ''ornr ParJr. if the communities to which he rrferrC'd.like Sally's Cove, '-'Ou)d remain there forever or if nt SOil'<' point thc-y would he> w:lpc>d out.

At lc-ast I have hE'ard that trc> commun.it:lrs will re>m:dn for thc- t:!me heinr, but as p~oplr die off or ],,:we• the- co1~munity thc>ir propc-rty will have> to rc>ve>rt to the> cro,,.-n. T woulrl lH:0 to knmr what arr:in~c-mc>nts - T :i 1,17

April 16. 1 q73 Tl\f'C' 1229 T'l'. - 11 hc>r your p:irc1on? 7nnuclfhlC'. "I'. 'Ti\f'Y: No. T 111:1 not nmrnrilnr .,nythirw thnt Hr. r.ol]lnR sa:ld nt nll. No, I nm a~k:lnr thP min:l~trr, T want thc> minister t6 conf1.nn or dC'ny this. A~ 11m;. "r.''l\fR: Tnaudible. "''P. r:r.A'PY: Oh, he can call mr what he likes hut ·what I want to !<now, tAr. C:ha1.rman, :If at soml'.' date thc> private' property there , the comrr,unities will PvPntu:tlly bt> wfpecl out,if the property will revC'rt to thr. crown and if i;io, how will thC' pc>op 1 C' rrcri ve compC'nsnt:lon for th"' prop,.rty?

You l-:now,w:1]1 :It hC' an arhitrary decision or will th" peopl<> whn fnllC'r:ft thC' propC'rty,in th0 case of th<' family pass:lm• mmy .or :If thC'y want to ]C':ive the- community, how wJ]l thc,y he- cornpC'nsatr>d? Hhnt yardstick will they use- for compc-nsatinr the pc-op]c- for their property?

First of all, T would like for the rnini .ster to tell us whether the com~unities are going to remain there or not,forever, or will there come a time when Sally's Cove will becoll'e extinct? '-'R. !-!.A.YNATID: WE'll the !-finistc-r of Indian and Northern Affairs has said that as far as the federal government are concerned,the people who are in these cornmun:f.ties at thC' present time can remidn for as lonr: as they care to. I would a!'lSUIT'e that most people in the communities like Sally's r.ove are poinr, to opt for remajninr, in the corrir.1,m:ltir.R. ,.,,,. cE'rtainly tliink so.

The fact remains hovevM· tl111t if p,:,op]P in the>1:;c• conmun .itiPs c1ec1de that they •i:,,ant to relocate to other areas,th0 provincial r,overnmc-nt are required to make a relocation policy available to them if thc-y decided .to take the opportunity. In our survey that was done aloniz the coast, a living-attitude survey, there ~,ere ind:lcation!l that a number of peop]E' wanted to relocate. In that light we have to ma1':c thE' rc-locatio~ polic'y availahle. The $625 ,ono cap:f.tal c-xpenditurc or the E'stimated expr>nc1iture :Is for that purpose to a certain Pxtent i.f people 1-·ant •• . t \18 "'J.

April Jn. 1CJ73 T'K - 1?. tak<' ;,dvanta f.<' of :It, we> do not lcnow :If th:it h: r.oing to he> f:lv,:, or six t1m<'S too much or tJh<'th,:,r w,:, are p,oi.nr. to nrc:-d five or Rix times morc:- tl1:in th:it. The actual rc•loc,1.t:lon no11cy what w1ll ht" offered to the people is a s11h_iPct at thif: time of ht>fnp; formulated hy government, the pol:lcy :Is beinr, formulated hy r.ove>rnmcnt and I cannot announce it her,:,, 1 t wi l J be announce>d by p,ove>rnmPnt wht"n the pol icy 1 s firmed up.

Wt> do however state. :It has stated before that if people dPsire to move from these communities t;hey must he he>tter off, equally as well off or better off afte>r they move than thry were before> and th:ls includes all a~rects of life. }IR. NEARY: J\lr. Chairman, thifl dC'al th<-n thnt thC' m:ln:fster announced the othe>r day. he coulcl not w;i:lt, hC' rushed into the Hom~e to announce this new policy that this ll.overnrnPnt had been succ~ssful in nC'r,otiating for thC' pc>ople in Sally's Cove and Trout Ri•.-er and somt> othC'r areas.

It is not really a:if!ood a deal as th<' minister told us the other day that it ,1as, came in thi:- House ere -w ing about it. In actual fact, Sir, the> minister did not say this but in actual fact what is goinP, to happen is that over a period of probably fifteen, twenty, tM.rty, forty or fifty years or ten years - MR~_t:_T::~RY: ~ayhe tC'n ye>ars nt the most, Mr. Chairfflan. that these commun:ltil's :ire r.oinr, to hecome extinct, and all the minister is doing ri1 '.ht now is P,C'ttinp the pc>oplC' off his hack.

The p,ove>rnment are just tryinr, to bring in a tc>mporary measure that they hopC' to satisfy the people dm n thr·re anu r,et the people off their hacks that is all it is, Sir. It is only a temporary thinr,. 1'Jow, Sir, at the same time the> minister stands in this House today and te>lls us that the ~overnmcnt have no policy for relocating the pC'ople. i:o policy '-'Orked out yet. t-'11at will be the relocation policy?

Th:ls c~o1,•cl ovC'rthrre>, Sir, when thC'y campaip.ned in t,.o provincial pc>nC'r:11 rlPctiom1 told the- pc-oplr of th:ls province' that the> nf'~-' phi.losorhy, the- nrw poUcy of this r:ovc>m!l'f'nt wo11ld he> a

April ](;. J ()73 TnpP J27q T'K - 13 hmnC' for n homc-. Wllcrl! !'C'ctf'lC' were tr:mRplnntrd, thrrc> would he> a-homt'-for-,11-home. We havP. not hrnrcl a sound. not ft P<'<'P ahout :1 . -,,. home for a home>, Sir. since that crown took office, Now the- minister stands up and tPlls us we have no policy. MR. f,f.AYNAr-D: That is an untruth. MR • .NF.ARY· That 1s not an untruth. It is in the Throne Speech. I wish I had it hc.>re with me. Jt is huried dm-m he.re somewhere under all of this material that I have here. In the Throne Speech - AN .P.OS.

MF.~RJ-:R • Inaudible. --·---- !:!!,, ~!EAJY ~- In the Throne Speech the Tory Administration committed itself to a-hnme-for-a-honte. Never again we w~re toltl would pe.ople be asked to_rl'locate hPcause of urban development. because of resettlement, because of relocation, :.; 110

April Hi, 1973 TRpe 1230 JM - 1 whatever the reason. Mr. Chainnan, that is a fact. It is not an untr11th. Tt i:<1 ., truth and thP ·minister !'lh0uld know that. He should know \.'h,1t l!Jf1 lcaclcr :IA p.oin~ aroun<l promisinr,. Mayb1.• he docs not know it :If the leader makes so many promises it :Is a job lo keep up with him. MR. ~1.\Yt:.\lnJ: (Jn:mdihle). HR. NEl1RY: Hell th:1t promise was made, Sir.

It was made primarily to lur,k after the people like the people in Sally's Cove ·and South River and all the other communities that at that time were going to he relocated,but now they have been given a temporary stay of execution. Well, Sir, I do not think that is going to satisfy the people in these r.ommunities and the honourable minister knows it :Is not goinP, to satisfy ttle people down there either. In the meantime there may be the odd one who will want to relocate, I have no doubt but there will be a handful of people in these communit:1.es who will want to move for some reason. MR. MAYNARD: (Inaudible).

MR. NEARY: A handful of people will want to move. MR. '1-'.AYNARD: (Imiudible). MR. NEARY: The minister knows what I am talkinp, about. Do T have to pick and choosi;, 1,1y words, Mr. Chairman? They are hanging on to every word,over thPre,I am sayinp;, Sir, hanp,ing on to it and if I do not pick and choose my words thry will find some fault with it. Well, Sir, I am not satisfied with the minister's explanation here this afternoon.

He came in here last week and announced this new policy that the people could stay, that they had a temporary stay of execution but did not tell us, we had to read between the lines and we had to clepend on people like Mr.

Wick Collins, a very astute r.entleman, very observant, quick thinking, quick witted,. who wPnt down in the minister's district, travelled arounrl there and talked to the people down in Sally's Cove and Trout River and the olhPr two or three- communities that arc r,oinr, to be transplanted nnd w:1'.: al Prt C'110111·h to plck np this very impurt;int f,7ct, i,,·,. h:id t:o rf',1d hf'tWP('ll the ] lnl'S as the. minister made no mc-ntion of ~111

April 16, 1973 Tape 1230 that at all,that these communities would be wiped out ot some stage probably ten ye~rs from now, Now the minister cannot tell us wlrnt compens a tion the people are r,~inR to p,et for their homes and their property. If I were representinp: that district, I tell you I would have it worked out. I would be ashamed to p;o down there and meet these people un]ess I could. Fifteen months is lonp, enough. It would not happen on Rell Island I can tell the miniRter that. I would have Borne kind of a pror,ramme worked ' out.

But this crowd, Sir, are committed to a-home-for-a-home and the people in these communities shou]d settle for nothing less.as that was a promise that was made to them in two provinc:I al-general elections. MR. MAYN/RD: Mr. Chainnan, the people in those commun:fties will not have to settle for anything less than a-home-for-a-home. As a matter of fact they will he much better off than just merely a home-for - a-home. We have no intention of bringing in any other kind of policy. When I made a Atatement in the House the other day, Mr. Chairman, T made no attempt to cover up any of the statements that were made hy Mr.

Chretien in his letter. I read the relevant statements to this House and I circ:ulated copies of the statement to members of the honourable House as well as members of the press. The concessions made by Mr. Chretien are not as good as we would like to have it,I grant that. We would like to sec the communities remain as long as they care to,~nd that is forever as far as I am concerned. But I mi~l.t point out, Mr.

Chairman, that we were not as anxious to ~et rid of those people as the previous administration when in 1970 they si.~ned I\ memorandum of ar,rl'em1!nt which essentially put the 1>,uns to the people in tho!'le communitit'R nnd s.<1id, "Now, ~et out of here." The honournhlc member for Hell Island was a part of that administration and knew "lhat was r,oinp cin. We had to try to pick up the pieces of that memorandum ar,rcemcnt, pick it apart and try to put some humanity into the whole thinr,. The honourable •• •1 -'12 i.i J. JM - 2

April 16, 1973 Tape 1230 member over there hRs the audacity to stand up and try to be cornp.:rns iona tc and hurnalll' in th<' House whC'n hC' wns party to tm ar.reement th.:it in effect put n rifle to the backs of those people and sa ld; "Now you r:e t Oll t of hC're or we wil 1 shoot you~" 1 think thC' hono11r.1h J e mernhc-r should .,po] or. tz~ to the people of !fo1.1found land for evPn m11king such an insinuation. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I beg to correct the honourable .minister that this honourable member did not agree with the policy a~d neither did he threaten the people down there to move out or he would shoot them. I would submit, Sir, that that is very unparliamentary and that the minister withdraw that statement and apolo~ize to this House for making such a statement, Sir, becau3e it is untrue. It JM - 3 is untrue, Sir. J stood in this honourahle House and I four.ht ap;ainst relocatinp, the people of Sally's Cove, Trout Riverand the other communities down there, Sir. I am on public record as beinP, opposed to it.

These communities in my opinion, Mr. Chairman, should be left intact. They show our natural Newfoundland heritage, Sir, and people who go down in that park would be proud and privileged and honoured to be able to p,o into Sally's Cove or to go into Trout River,which is a typical Newfoundland outport community. That is why they come down here from New York and Toronto and Montreal and all the other big cit:fes, Sir.

They come down here to r,et away from t~e pollution and the smoke and the traffic and the noise and they come down to take a look at a typical little old fishin~ community, Sir, an<l ~hey should be l<>ft there. I arg\led that in this honourable !louse and I think the minister ,,hen he stands to answer some more• questions he should apologize to me for makinr. such a statement. I <licl not agree to puttin~ the iuns to the people~ hcaris in that community no more than I have in any othC'r community in Ncwfou11dl.1nd, Sfr. That is .,n incorrect statement.

Tl1,1t 1:; f11l :;c and lhc mlnlAt,·r I :: j11:: t tryinr; to cl(•fl•nrl hf1, n<"tion hy puttln1'. up thl!! v,·ry W1'11l< ,1t•f1•11,.-· 1111.! J, y hl11 d1nrnct,·r 11 s 1111,i,;fnatlon. Ar,nfn thnt iH !IO typlntl 11f th,· crowd on that std,· of tlu · llomw, Sjr . •. . , . '> ou J. _l tl

April 16, 1973 Tnpl' 1230 lt Is not true· and thr minJ!lt<'r !lhould rc-trnct. ft nncl npolo~ize, Now, Sfr, I -wnnt to nAk thC' 1nlnf11t,·r whi,t happens to the property in Sally's Cove and the other co111munitiC!!I. What will happen when the propC't·ty owner dies? Can the property be inherited by his survivors? MR. EVN~S: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, th:f.s is a very serious matter. We have had too much fun poked at serious issues that are being debated in this House. We had one last week by the Minister of Finance poking fun nt the safety on our hip,hways,and we will deal with that Wednrscl~y cominr,.

Thi~ is a pretty serious matter, Sir, this is. I want the minister to tell us what happens if the present holder of the property dies. Will the property be taken over? Will the people who inherited the property then be forced to sell it to t:he crown? If so, what compensation will they get for it? That is a reasonable ·request, Sir. That is a reasonable question and I would like for the minister. to give us the answer to that. MR. MAYNARD: Mr. Chairman, first off J have no intention of withdrawinp, any of the remarks that I made.

The honourable member was a member of a p;overnment that made the decision in 1970 and as R member of the r,ovcrnm,:,nt,whether he Rgreed with it personally or not,he hao collective responsibility as all r.overnments do. Therefore the P,overnmcnt as such stands to be 1udp,ed by its actions. As far as whether property can be inherited,we have asked the honourable Mr. Chretien by letter,irnmcdiately after we received his letter,to clarify that particular point,and we have n~t received an answer back from Mr. Chretien.

I hope that .we will get one back sayinr, that the property can r,o on and on and the family can r,o on and on. ' It was not clear in the letter that J had from him and we hnve as~Pd for clarification of that pnrticular point. MR. P.S. TIIO~S: Mr. Chnirmnn, n wrck or two a~o the honourable .... 1· 1 •' J l JM - 4

April 16, 1973 Tape 1230 minister r11mr in10 tliffl l!OU"ll' nnd vrry lrnpp11y prcst'!nted tl!l with 11 '1t11trmrnt. NmJ, Mr. f.h11frm:m, T tho11rht whrn I hrnrct thf11 stnt1·m1•nt thnt tldi1 wo11ld p,fv1• tlw life of infinity to thl'Hl' fivl' or siY. communilfl's involved. Mr. Chai nnan, I would like to read a few of these words which the ninistrr :;;tated. On the fourth page he said, "It gives me a ~rcat deal of pleasure to report that the honourable Mr.

Chretil'n has agreed that the people of the communities named may continue to occupy their properties without let or hindrance of ary kind for as long as they choose to remain. This is a great breakthrough in respect to allowing people to pursue their chosen way of life as opposed to government dictating the way they should live. The communities will renain within the park boundries." The minister goes on to say, Mr.

Chairman, that this is a real victory for the people of these . communities and of course the five communities that he is talking about are the communities of Lobster Cove, Woody Cove, Bakers Cove, Green Point, Belldowns Point and Sally'H Cove. Now, Mr. Chairman, if there is any intention of the present p,ovcrnment or the present minister to make concessions to the prople to al]ow them to move and to freeze the land within the community, to freeze the buildings within the cornnunity well surely, Mr. Chairman, this p,ives the communities a limited lifetime.

It is only a matter of a year or so before the people in that area realize that sooner or later they are going to have to move and they might .1 ust as well get out now seeinr the going is good. How come we arc providing and working on a plan where wc can give them a house for a house, land for land,if wc come into this honourable House and make such a statemC'nt as this?

Because it cl early indicates that ·we are p,1vlng thC'se rom•rnnitics a lonr, life and giving the residents of thC'sc communit1cs thC' okay to progress, to modernize their comm1111 ft 1 f'S, to mocll'rnizc the:! r hot1es and to r, f ye them somC' JM -· 5 fut11re to look forward to. ·suppos:lnr, if some young ch.~p in Sally's Cove ~115

April 16, 1973 Tape 1230 JM - 6 wants to build a house today, can he p,o Rhead nnd build it? If he should want to improve hfs ~perty, to expand his business in some of these communities, is he permitted to p,o ahead and do so or is all activity in these communities frozen? Now there are many questions aloni this line that have to be answered and the proper time to have them answered is now. Are these communities temporarily frozen? Are they frozen for the future? Is there any intention;O"l the part of the present government to in the course of time eliminate these five or six communities? MR. M. MARTIN: Mr.

Chainnan, if I may hnve a few words or so. I think the- point taken by the member for Ronavista North is a very good onr and I think that there m:1yhe n very clirnr,erous precc-dc-nt set here if some kinrl of definite r,overnmc-nt st~tcment is not forthcominp, rcgardin;,. what may be the future of these communities. It is not quite a matter of whether or not they are p,oinr, to be frozen as such but whether or not they are goinr, to be allowed to have the same kinds of privilcp,es and the ri~hts of ROVernment programmes as other communities now have.

I wondering if they want to deve]op thelr communities, if they want to take advantage of certatn r,overnment schemes and proprammes whether or not some board wf 11 arbitrarily ded de, bc>cause they are within park bounclric-s~ that thc-y are not r.o1nr, to be able to avail themselves of thnt. I think we Rhould have some· real ancl definite statement of p,overnment policy on this point because there may verv well be other communities in the future in other areas where we :,111 have to mar.e such a rulinr,. ~- ~AY~lAP.D: ~r.

Chairman, one comment rep,ardinr, the comments made by tr.e honourahle mer.:ber for Bonavista North: This P,overnment has never had any intention that these communities should move. We fought apainst it for fifteen months and we were workinr, from the basis of a signed M~rc•el'lent, Ul agrC'ement that was signed spedfi<::illv stat:fnr. th:it th('se flve communitiC's h:ui to P.O. Hf' wt•r(' wnrHnr frt,m thrit h:isfs :-m,l :ft 111 VP.TY, vr-ry difficult, •• -1 1 (' ., J . )

April Hi, l 973 . Tnpc J 230 Mr. Chn!rmnn, to rc•m•r,otiate n si~ned AJ'.rec•mcnt.especially when you arc clc-,11inr, ,:1th the frderal government. I have no doubts thnt there are prohlcms in rer.ard to the concessions made by the federal people. I am not strictly happy with it. The only thinp; that would make me totally happy and this government totally happy would be if those co!TDTiunities could renain the same as other communities such as Rocky Harbour or Norris Point or whatever. They are under a different status.

I think we have made a breakthrough in that we have wheedled concessions out of the federal ~overnment to at least let them remain as lonr, as they so desire. The key words that we understand in Mr. Chretien's letter or at least the words that we are tryin~ to get more details on are the words "let or hindrance of any kind." Now we haver.one back Lo Mr. Chretien in a letter written a couple of days after I received the letter from h:lm and asked for clarification of all the points,as we are very anxious to know exactly what he meant in detail in each part of the ten point programme that he outlined.

As soon as the points are clarified, we have also made our suggestions as to what should be done and as soon as these points are clarified it will be the subject of a further statement. As soon as we can make the information known in dc-tail to the people in the area or to the people of Newfoundland in ~encral,wc will he makin~ a further statement. It is up to the fedc.-ral peoplc- lo cl:trify their intentions in line with !he sur,r,estion s that we h,,vc ~one bnck wi.th as a rc-sult: of Hs c-:irlil'r letter. MR. NF.ARY: Mr. Chairman, ------ ---- MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, - MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I think he saw me first - MR. CROSIHF.: It is a hideous si~ht but did you actually see the .honour:ible ~entlC'nian first, Mr. Cnair r.i:m? ?-fR. NEARY: l will yield the floor to mv - MR. CHA rn~w -1: The honourable m<.'mber for Hc-11 lsl:m(l. .IM - 7 ~li7

April 16, 1973 T1ipC 1230 ?-fN. NEARY: rJkay. Mr. Ch:'lirmnn, th<' point thnt wt• nre mRkinp, h<' r<' f n th:1 t when the• ffl'i nin tcr c,11'1<' in to t hi R llo11n<', T think ft -· wnR on April 9, 1973, rurihC'd :fn and c:011ld not \ ·nit to pet into print a statement outlininr, the new policy conccrninr. the coTll!!lunities in the C:ros Horne National Park that now would he allowed to remain within the boundries of that park, the minister. had been under tremendous pressure, Sir, and I con appreciate that. He has been under tremendous pressure since he p,ot elected down there in March of 1972.

Sir, you have to Tfc'Tllcmber thiH that during the provincial-r,eneral el€'ctfon fn October, 1971, the Tories ran a candidate in the DiRtrict of St. Hnrbc South nn<l the Liberals rnn a candidate, J think there were only two candidates, and there was a tie, Sir, there was a nplit. The matter ,ras referred to the Supreme Court, the election was disallowed and - It is relevant. The point I a!'l ~oing to make is relevant. Now if the honourable member for Green Bay would just keep quiet, hold his tongue, hold his fire, relax and take it easy now, I will get to the point.

We are in committee now and I can take all the time I want, So, Sir, the court disallowed the election. Sally's Cove was the centre of activity, Sir. scene of the burninr, of the ballots? Sally's Cove was not the AN HO~. MEMIIF:R: YeR, Sally's Cove, Sir. MR. NEARY: Sally's Cove, and for no other n.,ason, Mr. Chairman, in my opinion,Sa]ly's Cove should be left intact as a historic site. After twenty-three years of Liberalism, Sir, it took a little unknown, insirnificant community like Sally's Cove to o'rerturn the Smallwood administration and put the Tories in office.

If there is a crowd on the face of this earth, Sir, who should p.et down on their knees and thank the people of Sally's Cove it should be that crowd over there because it was Sally's Cove that put them where they arc today, Sir. MR. ~Rr.AN : (Inaudibl€'). --~-- - ----~ ~. TIH)MS: To a point of orcl('r, Mr. C:hainnan, the hono11r.nhlc member for Ronnvfstn South is spenkfnr and h~ is not in hin neat. :.d.:iH JM - R

April. 16, 1973 Tape 1230 ~~-~-~:/\~'!'._: 'F.v(!ry nip,ht vhen they r,ct down on their knee!> to pray to Almii"lity C:otl, ~ir, evt>ry night they should say a little prnycr for the people in Sally's Cove. The Minister of Finance is over there now waiting to get on his feet to lash into us. Can you hear it, Mr. Chairman? The previous administration, what did they nerotiate for the people of Sally's Cove? Well, Sir, we paid the price for what we ne~otiated for the people of Sally's Cove, We paid the price and they elected a Tory.

They said to the Liberals,after the Supreme Court had disallowed that election, they said to us, "Look your deal was not ~ood enour,h, We are not satisfied with the negotiations with the Government of Canada on the Gros Morne National Park and we are going to defeat your candidate," This they did, Sir, and I will say God bless them for it.

They did it and we paid the price, Not all of us agreed with the terms of the deDl that had been worked out for the Gros !-lorne National Park but the Government of Canada can he pretty pigheaded .JM - 9 on times and they said; "NC"." l"nn •. ,,. beat our heads against a stone walL When we tried to renegotiate the tenns so that these comm.unities could be left in th(' park boundries they said ; ''No," and we beat our heads off a stone wall and we paid the price for it, Mr. Chainnan.

The Minister of Finance or anybody else on that side can get up and say, "Well,what did the previous administration do?" Well I am te~ling the minister, I am telling the minister now what the previous administration did. We did not do the right thing and we paid 'the price. Now how is that for a confession? It is good for the soul, is it not? Confession is good for the soul. Now what is the minister r,oinr, to say when he gets up on his feet? MR. CROSBIE: (Innuclihle). ------- -·- MR. NF.ARV: All ri~ht but here i~ the point we are miking. Sir.

The people clown ther.c made a choice, They said no to the Liberals, "No, you did us d:!rty so we are going to send a Tory to the House of Assemhly.~ This they did. That w~~ thritcrn_months a~o. Jn comes the minister, Sir, the member for that District of St. Barbe ;j11·9

April 16, 1973 Tape 1230 South, rushes into the H~use and says we have a new deal with Ottawa and here is what he says and I am only r,oing to quote this in part, Sir, "This is a great breakthrough," he said, "in respect to allowing people to pursue their- chosen way of life as opposed to governments dictating the way they should live." Sir, that statement is less than honest because the government is going to dictate the way they live. But they are, Mr. Chairman.

My honourahle friend asked a question here, "Will the son or a daughter of a family in Sally's Cove be allowed to build a house on the property down there?" MR. MAYNARD: This govermnent is not r,oinr. to dictate to them. MR. NEARY: This government - Well, do you think the previous administration dictated to them? MR. MAYNARD: Your Liberal member in Ottawa is r,oing to dictate to them. MR. NEARY: ------- Ottawa? Now you see how they try to sneak out, weasel out, p,et off the hook, Sir, blnme it on Ottawa.

First they were blominp, it on the previous administration and now they suddenly realize that Ottawa has some say in that park down there and it was not all the fault of the previous administration and that this poor old crowd over here who got kicked out tried to do the best they could. MR. MAYNARD: But you did not have to sign the agreement. MR. NEARY: We did not have to sign the agreement? That is another story, Sir, J could deal with that. Now listen to this, "The communities will remain - " MR. MORGAN: What are you readinr, from? MR.

NEARY: I am readinp, from a ministerial statement the minister broup,ht into this House on April 9, 1973,when the member was down on the Burin Peninsula somewhere p,allivantinR around,· "The communities will remain within the park boundries and will not be enclaves such as Rocky Harbour and Norris Point. A relocation policy will be made available to them. We consider this to he very_ fair in view of r•A 20 ~J.. JM - 10

April 16, 1973 Tape 1230 the fnC"t tlu1t II numhrr of pr.opll" 1ndicntcd durinr, recent surveys n <fr!lfrc to rt'loc-ntt-."~ l.il'ltrn to thi!!I, Mr. Ch,linnan, 1ust listen to this. The m!nist~r is full of enthusia~m, idealia~ flowinp out of him, coming out of his eyes the idealism. This crowd over here had stabbed the people down there in the back and now this minister and that crowd over there are coming to the rescue. Just listen, "This is a very real victory for the people of these communities." A very real victory my foot. "As far as this government is concerned," he said, listen, just listen# Mr.

Chairman, you would hardly believe it. A minister who just ~ot up and told us that there is no policy for relocation, do not know how much the people are going to p,et for their property, whether the property can be inhc-rited by the survivors .Jf the family,when they die,or whether the crown will move in, take over the property, what compensation they will p,et. Just listen. You would never swear that that same minister made the two statements. Just listen to this one.

"As far as this government is concerned," he said, this great Tory Government, "we can now proceed at full speed with the development of this large and very important project.,'' Proceed now,irnmediately,at full speed,and now we hear that there is no policy for the people there who want to stay. That dark cloud will be still over their heads, Sir. They do not know what is going to happen to them and this is not going r,et the minister off the hook. Listen to this, Sir, listen to this. ''On hc-hnl f of the Government of Newfoundland ;md the people of the area, I want to extend our sin<'.c npprt'ciation to Mr.

Cl.'t"etien 1md his collea~ues for this ma1or chanp:e of policy. I am sure that the people of these communities will today hi·eathe a deep sir,h of relief that this issue has finally been resolved." Not a mention, Sir, not JM - 11 a word anywhere in this statement that at some stage these communities were p,oinr, to die. I submit, Mr. Chairman, that a ministerial . stntt'mcnt in this House should r,'11e al1 the f11cts. If it doc-snot, S[r, it i ,a J,·ss th:m honC'st an<' th:it m1nistC'r will h:ivc- to n,,v the ~121

April 16, 1973 Tape 1230 price wh<'n he r,oC's tlown to mf't-t h Is r.ons ti tuf'11 tN nrxt wrrk or the WC'l'k nftc-r or whl'ncv,,r-thc lions<' clost'~. T tlilnk ft fR rruf'l, Sir, and the p~•ople shall hnve been given oll the fnctR, or are they goinr, to depend on Mr. McLean whrn he puts out his "Gros Morne News"_ at $1,500 a month for putting out a mimeo~raphed sheet called the "Gros Morne News" down there, Sir? Are they waiting for Mr.

McLean to cover that up, to camoufla~e it, to do a whitewash job, to point out thC' propaganda for $1 , 500 a rn<-.nth, zeroxed copies to cost an extra $500.00 at Christmas time because they change the colour on the masthc.id? Is that what they arc wnitin~ for, Mr. Mcl,enn to do a whi trwaf.lh .1ob 011 it? Then' j s no way, Sir. If the miniRter wants to talk about puttinP. shot r,uns to peop] e's heads, he is dealinr, with the right r;uy here now ,.because I would h,1ve only asked the minister about his policy if he did not have to provoke me.

But, Sir, this is less than satisfactory to the people in these communities. As I say, Sir, we paid the price for thinr,s like that and not only down in St. Barbe South but in a number of other districts in this province. But the people are wtsening up, Sir. They realize they have been conned and _the taxpayers of this province are not ~oing to put up with it much lonr,er. Now I will take my sent and hear what my congenial friend over there, the Minister of Finance,has to say about this 111atter.

No doubt, Sir, he will find a way, the master, the artist who is creating smoke screens in·this House, The Minister of Finance, will not only drag in a red herring, Sir, but he will diag in an elephant now. But there is no way, Sir. They cannot talk their way out of it. The deed is done. The damap,e is done. The minister is in hot water. The member for the District of St. Barbe South and the Minister of Finance are r,oinr, ' to.have to do a lot of talldn~ ,ind a lot of fancy footworl<- to P,et them off the hook. ~!.._r,Rrlli_1!_~_~: Mr. Chntrmnn, whnt b:,ffl.<•s me is why the honourable JM - 12

April 16, 1971 Tape 1230 gentleman is not up praising the rninis .ter for resolvinp, this situation that the honoura1 ,le gentleman who was a member of the ,cabinet left when he finally resigned from office on .Jnnuary 18, 1972, AN HO~ . ~U:?-'BER: Rcsigncdi' MR. CROSBIE: Well, he w.is given a little shove, The honourable gentleman was finally dr~~~ed,~creaming and kicking,through ti~ front doors of Confederation Building, hauling.his fiJes behind him,on January 18, 1972.

The honourable gentle~an was a member JM - 13 of the last administration and he must be adopting a new theory now .~f collective responsibility. He said he was n~t responsible for the Gros Morne agreement because now he says he did not agree with it. Well, if he did not agree w~th it, it was the last cabinet that authorized Silica Bill, Members of the House will remember the famous old Silica Bill days when we had the white paper, there wa~ going to be a white paper on the Gi·eat Nortl,crn Peninsula, airports every hundred miles, museums, pavement, under-- water gardens in the Bonne nay Park.

There was goinp.: to be a great white paper,which we afterwards called the brown p~per for reasons that everybody can. r,ucss,which was never produced to the House, the r,reat brown paper, It was his r,overronent and his minister that entered into this agreement that the honourable member for St. Barbe South has now rescued the> people of Sally's Cove ~nd the rest of them from. What was the honourahle ~entleman's policy or his p.overnment's policy?

That the jntercst of hav:lnp, a national park in Newfoundland dictated thnt those six communities should go at any cost or whatever the cost was,their interest had to be subordinated to those of the province as a whole in havinr, a n11tional park :In thr. province. lie nsked thi:; r,ovcrnmC'nt what its policy is with respect to tho!IC' six c.ommunities. The policy of t;his p.overnm<'nt has hec.>n sl1own by the fact that we have P,otten ~- ., 23 .J J. .

Aprjl 16, 1973 Tape 1230 the Government of C,m:id:t t C\ chonr.c their polic ·y . Whnt he ~hould be askinp is wha t is the policy of the Covernn:ent of Canada ahout the quest1ons that he has asked because it is the Government of Canada's pol;icy that dictates the whole situation. They say that they will aP,ree to this area as a national park but for t here to be a :1ational p:irk there certain conditions must be met.

Orclinnrily ,as far as I know,up to now, up to this recent bus·iness with the Gros Morne Park, thC'ir polfc y has been that the province must acquire all the land, acquire ownership of all the land, everybody must move out of the .in:a and the land has to he turned over to them completely. Then when that is done hy the province,they will proceed with the national park. But here they have ar,rned.aftcr fift een months of effort, H rst by the former minister, the junio r member for ~124 JM - 14

April I&, 1973 Tape :10. 1231 Page 1 - ~IIZ~/ Harbour M;tin a:1d now as a result of the urgings of the member for St. Barbe South, to chanr,c that so that the -people living thP.re now ca:1 st.w th<->re as ln:1g as they live, the rwople now livin~ there. Whenf'ver they want to sell their prop(•rty, they can offrr It for s11le to the !iOvernml'at and that they will lw crmpr>mrntcd for it on the b,rni11 of as f.:iir compe>::1,rntion as there ca:1 be.

I.f they ,want to stay there, when they dle their executor or their heirs can sell it to the government and they will be recompensed for it, The Government ·of Newfoundland are entitled to co:itinue the mu:1icipal services in the area,as I understand it. They arc not going to be left destitute. They will have municipal services or if they want to move to another area nearby, like Rocky Harbour .that wi.11 be a serviced area. All •of those improvements have been made, Now the hon. member for Bell lala:id says how the honourable minister rushed into the !_louse and mt.tde this announcement.

Well he was several weeks late over the hoa, Lca::!:?r of the Oppo::ilti.on who rushed in the House and made an announcement about it several weeks before the thing actually happened. We all remember that incident. Apparently there is a split in the ranks of the oppositioa. The Leader of the Opposition was de]:lghted with this change which he ascribed to Mr. Jamieson. He said tlrat Mr. Jamieson. should get all the praise for this mom':'nt.ous change.

Now the hon. member for Bell Island, apparently whnever is responsible for the change should r,et a lot of blame. lf the Leader of the OpJ osition :Is right in sayi.ng H was Mr. Jamieson, then tli:1s is a ic.:;ivnre 11ttack hy thl' hon. member for Bell Island on Mr. Jarni.cson. I lir,pe the House notes that, It is a savage attack on the federal wing of the Liberal Party and on the Trudeau r,overnment, not oa the minist<!r, Now if we are correct and the hon.

Minister for :Forestry and Agriculture is respon:,iblc for this chanp,e (I think we are correct), then it is a· twist<:>d alt,1c-k on "the rni,nistrr who has made great str:I des •. _... rJ r:. .J J . r...J

Apri I lb, 1973 '1'11pe no. 1231 Page 2 i:1 snvi:1r, those six communitlP.!'! for thl" pe,,rlti who w11nt to stay in thr?r.i a:,rl who sh!'ulr.l desc>rvc th,• tbanks of this House for it, When ·the honourable r,e:1.tleman wants to know what the policy of the federal government is, he should contact hjs confreres in Ottawa, Mr. Jam1esoa, Mr, Rompkey and Mr, Rooney. They will riot be there, Jf there should be another election this yrar, they will be gone like the wind. Get hold of them this year,quick,before the I election,and ask them to do their best to get Mr.

Chretien to change his policy a bit more because it is there that it counts. That is where the policy needs to be changed and if the oppos:f.tion would join us in fightine for that change, jn.r.tead of attacking the minister who has made so 1nany :1.mprovements 1 n it in the House, I think we would get a lot further.. If the hon. membc,r [or Bell ls.land has any influence at a] 1 with Mr.. Jamieson, I would plead with him now to get on the phone and use hi!'! persuaRive abilities to c-.onvince Mr • .Jamieson to convince Hr. Chi:-etien' to change his mind.

We are asking this in a nonpartisan spirit, Would the hon. gc>ntleman for Bell Islan.d do that? MR.NEARY: Pay me the minister's salary? MR. CROSBIE: No the honourable gentleman is overpaid now. Ile is paid as a member of the House; he is paid ns a party whip and who know9 what else he is paid. MR. NEARY: The hon. Leader of the Opposi ti Jn. Hk. CROSRTE: He is well pai<l no~. TI1e only gentlemon properly paid in this - the only people in this House underpaid are thP. forty-one merr,bers who have to listen to the hon. meml,er for Bell Island. We should all have three ti~es the compensation. MR. TIHY.1S: Mr.

Chairman, after hearing tl,e hon. MinJ.ster of Fiaance speak, I am sure that ":1oby Joe. 11 is no lo::ir,er painted white, he is probably palnted red. The honourable memlH'.1." has just drar,r,ed in a red ~126

April 16, 1973 Tape no, 1231 Page J whale over this whole situation. The true facts of the matter are, according to t~ statem<,nt and accordinr, to what the minister tells us, that it is o:1ly a matter of time before these five or six cnmmu:1ities disappear. No~ that is n0t saving the communities for a:1yone. As soon as these people realize that the communities will disnppear, naturally they will take advantage of the resettlement programme and move out of the area altogether. What is. there for them if eventually,within five,te:1 or fift,~cr1 years,the communities are r,oing to go nnyway?

What else are they r,oing to do?, If they come into the government tomorrow and look for water and sewerage, will they get it? MR. MAYNARD: No, they will not get it. MR. THOM~: Then why are you making pl,ns for a resettlement plan for them? MR. BARRY: We are giving them the option instead of telling them what to do as the previous· administration did. Nl{. THOMS: option. You are giving them some option. That is some AN HON. MI-:MBER: That is right, So it is. MR. THOMS: Stay there for five or ten years and then you will have to be forced out. You do not take them all the one time, you take a family at a time.

You take enough so that first the schools go. Then the federal government says that the po~t office has to go. What is left for them to stay? Nothing! Why does not the provincial r,cver.nm(•nt corn~ out now with a clear-cut policy and say that it is a normal community and it will get al'. the normal services as any other community or that it has to go/ MR. BARRY: We do not have the category of normal and abnormal commuaities in this govc>rnment. MR. 'DIOMS: I know the Tory Government do not because they probably do not know their distric:ts. ~127

April 13, 1973 Tape no. 1231 Page 4 l ,am not talking about abnormal communities, I want to know whether they are going to be normal communities or not, the same as the other communities in Newfoundland. Are you just going to give them a life span of ten or fifteen years? What is the policy? This statement is no clear-cut policy. MR. MAYNARD: There are abnormal communities in Newfou:-idland,are there? MR. THOMS: ---- · No, there are not abnormal communities. MR . MAYNARD: w~11 then what are you - MR.

THOMS: If this situation is al.lowed to exist, these communities wjll become abnormal communities because they will have no life span. TI1ey will have a very short life span. Any other community along the coast of Nr,wfoundland has a life span. It is infinity, as far as I am concerned. In these communities, as soon as a chap dies his property is sold to the government. The Minister of Finance .1ust told us so. The Minister of Fi-ianr:e just told us so, Is the Minister of Finance all wrong? MR. BARRY: They can if they want to 1he sai~. MR. THOMS: Mr.

Chairman, apparently the cabinet on the other side do not know what the other chaps are talkinr, about. The Minister of Finance told us that when a person dies he or someone of his estate can sell the property to the government. He did not sny that they had en option to sell to anyone else, AN liON. MEMBER: Well they ca.n if they want to. MR. THOMS: - ·- - - -~ Can they? AN HON. _MEMBER : No, MR, TIIOM~;: lfoll,will tho minister come out and stnte that clearly for the bc:11>fit of th~s,, pr-op]r, involved? Hight now there> is ;ihsolutr? confusio:1.

We do not know where these commu!"lities arc going to be in five or ten years. If it cannot be Rold privately, he is dictating to the communities. MR. MAYNARD: I did not dictate it. ~128

Apri~ 16, 1973 Tape no, 1231 Page ~- MR. Tlim1~: WPll his r,overnment is. ~IR. MAYt-;'.'::1: No! MR. THOM:'.: ·-- - - - MR. MAYNARD: !-IR. THOMS : MR, MAYNARD: MR. THOMS: He is most definitely, He signed the agreement. I sig::i.ed the agreement? He must have, Who siened the agreemeat? Talk to his colleagues in the former administration. '-lelJ can the minister explain what this is all about? Can the minister tell us what the future is of these communities and the individuals within these communities? If I want to move to Sally's Cove today ann buy n piece of lnnd, can I do :It? MR.

MAYNARD: Can he clo it? _MR, THOMS: Yes. MR. MAYN:'\RD: Not according to Mr, Chretien'. MR. THOMS: Does Mr, Chretieri' have control over these communities now? MR, MAYNARD: Yes. MR. THOMS: Well then there must have been some agreement signed, MR. MAYNARD: Sure there was i::i. 1970,by the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Resources. MR. 'J:HOMS: What a bunch! MR.MAYNARD: Mr.

Chairman, this is gettinP, a bit ridiculous, I am sure there is an agreement signed and that is what we have been saying all alonr, that there was an agreement signed which we did not agree with, which we [elt we could not live with, The agre~ment was signed by one of the former Ministers of Mines, Agriculture and Resources in the Liberal Administration, a::i. agreement that was ironclad, an agreeme::i.t that called for six or seven commu::i.ities or whatever it was to be eliminated, That was sir,ned by the previous administration. When we :;129

April 13, 1973 Tape no, 1231 Par.e 6 took office, we tried to rhanr,e t~at, We tried to change that agreement a:i.c,l we have chanr,r.d it to a certaia extent, to the greatest extent possible. If w~ ran chan~~ it more, we shall change it more. I have no desire to see those communi.ties r,o. Our policy on resettlement is simply this: If people wish to move, they may. If they do not want to move, then they can remain, Until the federal government make more coaccssions to us, thea the points set out in Mr.

Chretieri' 1 s letter have to be the law, There was a legal, binding agreement signed in 1970, before we ever came on the scene,between two sovereign governme?ts. That can ouly be changed by the consent of both parties. We certainly have given our consent to change it, We would like to see it scrapped in total and a whole new ar,reement drawn up for the development of Gros Horne. That agreement can only be changed, that contract,if both parties agree to it. So .far the federal government have not agreed to cha:1ge that 11creement with the exception of the points set out MR. NEAHY: The point is this, Mr. Chairman.

Everybody agrees that there have been minor improvements in the agreement, Yes, there is an improvement in the agreement, I said in my remarks, Sir, I conceded in my remarks that it was the former Liberal Administration who negotiated and signed the agreement. I said that, Sir. Remember I said that confession was good for tl1e soul, th~t there were those of us who did not agree 1o1ith that, did not a~ree with the~e communities being relocatP.d. MR. BARRY: ·· MR. NEARY: You had to resign. I did not hnve to resir;n, Sir. We got the answer. The people in St. Barbe South eave us the answer.

They gave us the anf<wer, They f lun.; out our me:nber down therl:!. I do not remember who he was at the time. Who was our member at the time? A reformed Liberal,

April 16, 1973 Tar;ie no. 1231 Page 7 MR. NE,\RY: A reformed Ljberal? No wonder he got flung out. AN HON. }!l·:"1-rnrR: )!,. w,1s a CrosbJe Knir,ht. lk Wi15 a Cro:•,bie K:1ight. ;,;ow I know why he was flunr. out. Whitt: the pc>ople in these co,·1TT1unities sAid to that member, Sir. They sald, "Look,you havf! ner,otl.-ited 11:1 Ar,reement with the Government of Cnnacia wher.:>by you are going to lrnild a n;itlo:1.al park here. The f Pdcral govl'r:ment are going to build a national park.

We are not satisfied with the agreement, So, therefore, we are going to vote against the Liberal candidat~ and we are going to vote for our glorious a:i.d r,allant Tory ca:1.didate in the person of one Mr. Edward Maynard." He was elected, Sir, by the fickle finger of fate. Now, Sir, we paid the price. Now remember also that the Government of Canada, Sir, in the October election almost paid the price,but not for the ~~me reason. It was not Sally's Cove that almost overturned the Goveran,ent of Canad11. It was the same reason. Gover.1me~ts had beccirr.~ arrogant.

Governmf!nts had dug their heels in and refused to listen to the people. So this crowd SP-t about the same as we would have, Mr. Chairman. We would have set about to try to amend that agreement. I want to. say to the Minister of Finance now (He is not in his scat. He asked for my help and my co-operation) right here in this House,puhlicly, that I do not want . to see these five or six r.ommunities die now, ten years from now, fifty years from now, one hundred years from now, indefin1.t1:,l,y - ad infinitum! I. want to see them carry on, Sir. I do'not want to see these communities die.

I want to sre these communities remai:1 intact, not to be wiped out through attrition, people dyJng, leavinP.. No,, Sir] This is where the minister and I differ. h'hen the minister made his statement in this House, he left out that little f11ctor that these communities were going to die. This is what the argument is all about, Sir. This is what the

Aprf 1 l6, l973 Tape no. 1231 8 argument is all about, We tried to rener,otiate with the Government of Canada. We nm up against a stone wall. That crowd over there have some minor concessions. It is most unusual for a Tory Administration to be able to get some concessions from a Liberal Government. when the former Liberal Administration could not get them,but they got them. More power to th<'m. I wil 1 give thP.m full credit for it. It is the minister's i-t.1tement thnt threw me for a loop, Sir, the n1inister w11s less thnn honest. lie did not level wl th the people down there.

If the minister had come~ in and said, "Look,ue have a concession from the Govcr::rn1c-nt of Canada and we are r,lad to be able to get it but they did not r,o far enouEh bP.cause the communities are going to die anyway," I would have said to thP. ministC':r ,"well done yourself. You si:ood up in this House, foup,ht for your people and you have levelled with them.'' Now I do not k:iow who wrote the statement for the minister. Maybe he did not write it himself. HR. MAYNARD: I wrote it. MR. NEARY: The minister wrote ft himself. Very cold-blooded, calculated to fool the people, Sir. Thnt is what it was.

Now whether the minister dld :It deliberately or he did not do it deliberately - Rs a matter of fact, it alr.1ost fooled n1e, Sir. I am pretty observant in this !louse. I j:IITI pretty astute. I do not let that crowd over there get away with very much but it almost fooled me. I picked it up at the last minut~. l said, now when we get to the Gros Horne National Park ,I ;im r,oinr, to find out if this is so. I was left with the :Impression, the same Rs the people dowa in these commu'.lities, that th,,y would never dJe. 'fhcy are r,oinr, to die, Sir.

As W:1.ck Co]li:ls said, (I think it was), "you \1ill see some statisticnn do-.t:, there hldlnr. b~ldn,I .1. trc>e :In th,:, pnrl · , Around tile corner of a hourie, a Hhadr,w kl!epl:w .the stnti,;tic:i;," l'Por old skipp~r so and so ifl on his last ler,s, he :Is r,oinp, to die, How lonr , more will he last? Take him off. He is gone." A. record every time there is a:, obituary in

April 16, 1973 Tape no. 1231 Page 9 the newspaper, tick it off. That is what is going to happen, Sir. The communities are going to die; I say here now,if the minister wants rny b~cking or the MJnister of Finance and if the Minister of Finance wants me to do tl1e work for the Minister of Forestry. Sir, pay me his salary and I will no it. We are not the r,overnment. We are oppositloa, Sir. If that crowd over there wnnt to abdicate their authority, we would be !-.lad to move over anytime they want us to. All they have to do is to give the voters a chance. We will move over there anytime they want us to, Sir.

I want to say to the minister right now that I am all for keeping these communities iu• tact and that is my wish, Sir, my desire. If I had any say with Ottawa, I would go and tell them in no uncertain terms,quite frankly, honestly and sincerely, that I want these communities to remain where they are and that they will never die. That is where the minister an? I disagree. It is with the statement that he made. I am not disagreeing with the improvement. We could not do it, they did it. Good! I am not a bit jealous about it. I am not a bit envious.

It is the minister's statement that J am concerned with, Sir, because it was less than honest. It is not p,oinr, to fool the people down in that district. MR. THOMS: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the mi:1ister could explain to us - let us say, i,e., down in Baker's Brook that there is some old person livinB all by himself,an<l he has a son down in Corner Brook, and he dies, then his estate can:1ot be sold to another individual. Say, i.e., Uncle Georp,~ so and so dies tomorrow, can I go up and buy his estate and buiJd a house on it? MR. MAYNARD: (Inaudible), MR. TIIO~ts: Why can I not?

If I ca:1not, then this is not a normal community. MR. MAYNARD: As I said lH.•fore, Mr. Chairman, these are points that have to be clnriffpd hv ci1c federal minister when hop~fully he answ~rs our :;133

April 16, 1973 Tape no. 1231 Page 10 queries on the matter, We have _proposed a number ·of questions to the federal minister for clarification. One of the things we have proposed to nim is as to whether or not the . property can be passed on to the son and to his son and so on and so forth, in which case it would be a normal community. Our understanding,in rP.adinr, tl,e letter and from a previous conver:;,1tfon we had with the fed,:,ral officials, is that no new developments (I ar.i t:,JkJng ahout pcnple who Dre not now re!lidents of the community, tryini to become reRid<>nts) will be allowed in that reBard.

It is a subject that is up to the federal Hinister of Indian Affairs and Development to decide on how far he is willing to ~o. We have made our representations,numcrous times over the past fifteen months. We did not want the communities to he rclocatE'd. We wanted the communities to b~ enclaved the s.ime as Rocky u·arbour, Norris Point, Trout River so on and so forth. WI? did not r,et that much. We got part of it. We did not r,et as much DA we wnntc,I to get in the. form of concessions. We did, however, get a auinb~1.· l,f conc:t!R!iiow; li,at are very in1portant.

Let us say that the door is opeu a cr.rtain amount and we are hoping to open it a farther amount as the weeks and months go on. We cP.rtainly are not yet r,tving up on the whole thing as far as relocation of theRP. communities a re concerned. l did not try nei. ther did 1 pull the wool over anyone's eyes in my st ... tcment. I am willing to abide by that statement. I think it was very clear and it Ret out the picture as it was. I am willing to abide by that statement in this llousc- or in the district or in a;1y other part of this province.

There is :10 place in that statement where I tried to fool anyone in any way As l say, the mech:i.ntcs of the conces'liomi, the explanation of the ten point11 that WP.re m,3rJ,, by the M1nlster of Indian Affai.rs and NorthP.r :1 llevi:?loprnent wlll hnve t0 be> clarifll'd. We> have nsked for cl1uificatlon i,nd wh1•n wr> r,•it it, thr•se clarificatic,,1s will be made public. MR, 1'1i')'fS: ____ ..... ... Mr. Ch-'lirm,1.:1, I tal<', it to understand that from \.'hat the

April 16, 1973 Tape no. 1231 Page 11 ministt"r h:is to1d u!9' that it is _just a matter of time,pou~lhly five, t~n or fifteen y ;•;irs ,nd tl1<.>Sl' slx communitic~J will dlsappc;ir, So be it! Mr. Chairman, I wond~r if the minister could tell us if there -is any :1.ncrease in the $1,500 paid to Mr. McL~an for the publishing of thr> "Gros Morne News"? I wonder :l.f the minister could table a copy of this •!l.:tborate ne"wspaper in this honourable House? I have never seen it. I am sure there are a lot of people anxious to see lt. MR.

MAYNARD: I would be- only too happy to put the honourable member on the mailinc list for the "Gros Morrie News". The "Gros Morne Uews" is coatinuing to be published every month. Until such time we Uad that :It :Is not doing any r,oo<l, not f P.edlng nny information to the people, it will continuf' to be publ1.shecl. Whether it is clone by Mr. McLean or sonu'!o11e else is a subj,.ct of furtber decis:1 .oa. Certainly we are quite happy with tl,e puhlication as :l.t is now, individual mail:lncs to 1,200 householders in the an~/\, p)us other mailings. We are going to coatinue to publish it on a monthly basis. MR.

THOi.'1S: Mr. Chairman, I wonder could the minister explain to us where this $750,000 :Is going. That is three-quarters of one million dollars. What is being spent on the Gros Horne Park? J'IR. MAY~ARD: Where it is coming from? I think I answered that. Part of it, of course, in current accouat, the Aalaries of a Gros Morn" co-ordinator, a provincial person who is 1n chArr,e of Gros Morne, his · staff aad office l'XJH•ns.,s. Pnrt of the capif:al, a small part of the capit.i.l,w:! 11 be tile offic" hui lding. There is a small office building there now. It wil 1 be e11lar1:ed som..,what.

A r,reat part of the capital, if it is aecessary, it iE; there only if it is necessary to spend it or if it is re'juircd,wi -11 be allocated for those people who want to take advantar,e of the res..,ttlement policy. There may only be $50,000 spent in that vote this year. There m.i.y be $500,000. We do not know.

Apri.l 16, 1973 Tape no, 1231 Pop.e 12 'l'llnl <l~ep••ncl~ on lh•· m1111h,•r or proplr who w1111t It. Ml(. TllmtS: Mr. Chairman, could the mlnister Inform us who the co-ordin:itor is? How much he is being paid and where is his office set up? MR. MAYNARD: I. tab led an answer to a question in the House today, Mr. Chalrman, on that. The Gros Morne provl:icial co-ordinator is a chap whose name is Mr. Don Peckham. lie originally worked with the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation and before that with l believe the Department of Public Works. His salary is $16,000 per year.

At the present time, until school closes and the office iR com11lete<l :In Hocky ll;nbour, he is here in St. John's. As soon as the offic~! in completed in Rocky Harbour, not later than the last of Ju~e, his place of residence and his working office w:111 be in Rocky Harbour and all the staff will be in that area - Rocky Harbour, Norris Point. MR. THOMS: Mr. Chairman, could the minister explain to us,roughly what are the duties of this co-ordinator? MR. MAYNARD: W~ll, Mr.

Chairman, there is a great deal of development that has to be do::i.e in the Gros Morne area, from a provincial point of view., as a result of the park development. A lot of the work to be done in the area is on a cost-shar~d basis by the federal-provincial people. There is also, of course, the planning in the various communities. Obviously, we are going to take full advanta~e. The tourist industry will be created in that area or we hope it will be created.

The encJavc co=unities in particular will need a great deal of development - development somew~at of a different kind possibly than the normal type of developme:it,such as water and sewerage, street l:lghtiar, and so on. M0 have a staff appointed to co-ordinate all the efforts of the federal - provi:icial governments in the cost-sharing arran~ements. We are also trying to have our say in the way that the park is developed and what is developed in the park by the.fed e ral peopk.

We have to have a r,reat d<',d or cl,.,v,•lopm<'nt fn the v11rlous commun!ti!'s which will be co-ordl:1 :1l<'d by th,, provl:irf;,1 c-o-ordi :i:1tor a:1cl ht:. ~l.,ff 11nd :is w,~1 l we h:ivc to,

April 16, 1973 Tape no. 1231 Page 13 wherever possible,.,a-y nnd cr~ate jobs and try to make sure that these jobs are rn:id~ avail able to the people in the area. All these things will be within tr.£• anibit of the Gros Morne co-ordinat,,r. MR. NE,\RY: Hr. Cha:1.rman, Mr. Peckham's position of $16,000 a year, was that job advertised for? MR. MAYNARD: Yes. MR. NEARY: It was advertised for? MR. MAYNA!W: Yes. MR. NF.ARY: !low mnny opplications did the min:f,;ter receive for this part:! cular job? Did it f.:O throur,h the Civil SP.rv.ice Commlssion or was it advertised outsi<lc the Civil S,!rvice Commission? MR.

MAYNARD: There was a departmental s•!lection board. MR. NEARY: Departmental selection board? In other words, it is a political appointment. AN HON. Ml:..~BER: No, MR. NEARY: Yes. That is the whole idea of getting it excluded from the Civil Service Commission so thRt it.will give the minister. a little flexibility,a little leeway, Sir, I did it myself. lam well aware of it, The minister does the same thing. It was purely political. That is Mr. Peckham's job, What is his title? MR. HAYNARD: Co-ordinator. MR. NEARY: Co-ordinator at $16,000 a year. Now is there an assistant co-ordinator?

Give us a run down of the jobs there and their salaries, :l.f they were advertised for or if they weat through the Civil Service Commission or how they were hired. They are not listed in the salaries here, That is why I am asking, Mr, Chairman, because they are not in this little blue book. MR. MAYNARD: There are presently three people on staff with the Gros Morne Park authority, The co-or<linator,Mr.·Peckhman,was hired by us. He is a career civil servant and very capable for the job. The other person who

April 16, 1973 Tape no, 1231 Pnge 14 is o:i stnff ilt the present timP. is the information officer who ~;1s hired by the. previous a<ln,i::iistration, Mr. Reµba::i Hardy. I am not exactly sure but I think he was a GS 30 or GS 31, I would have to check on that. I think it is around $10,000, I am not sure. There is also one stenographer on temporary staff as of this time. There will be another stenographer hired on a temporary basis or a year to year basis for the Rocky Harbour Office as well. HR. THOMS: Mr.

Chairman, I do not know if this is the right place or not but J notice in the salary estimates that there are apparently six u:-iclassified jobs here for $24,000, That must be $4,000 a .1ob, Then there is cxtrR assistance for $165,000. I woncler could the minister expl~in this to ua. It is on page seventy-eight. fage seventy-eir,ht. That 1s a lot of mo:-iey to have unaccou!lted for. Mn.. THOMS: Mr. Chairman, the minister is getting up to answer. If it is a different head, Mr. Chairman, the minister can inform me and I will ask the question - MR. MAYNARD: This is forestry staff. MR.

THOMS: It is under 1203 which :Is what we are on.