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May 16, 1991

35th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

The House met at 1000.

Prayers.

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

INTERVENORS AND SIGN LANGUAGE INTERPRETERS / SERVICES D'INTERVENTION ET INTERPRETES DE LANGUES DE SIGNES

Mr Malkowski moved resolution 13:

That, in the opinion of this House, recognizing that the time has come for a fundamental assessment of provincial policies and practices concerning intervention services and sign language interpreting services, intervenor training and sign language interpreter training and the availability of intervenors and sign language interpreters in educational settings and in the community generally, the Ministry of Colleges and Universities should immediately undertake a thorough review of those policies and practices, with the scope of the review to include:

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a) the reasons for the current shortage of intervenors and interpreters in this province and its impact on the ability of colleges and universities, elementary and secondary schools, schools for the deaf and community service agencies and employers to hire qualified intervenors and interpreters;

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c) the availability of intervention training programs and sign language interpreter training programs, including either ASL or LSQ, in Ontario;

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d) the appropriateness of current entrance requirements for sign language interpreter training programs, particularly the criteria pertaining to prospective students, sign language fluency;

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e) the number of sign language interpreter instructors who do not have an appropriate sign language interpreter training background;

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f) the effectiveness of current sign language interpreter training curricula and an assessment of curriculum standards in Ontario, including the degree of involvement of experts and consumers in curriculum development and the extent of ongoing consultation;

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g) the availability of funds to cover the costs of intervenor services and interpreter services;

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h) the appropriateness of the currently limited mandates of the ministries of Community and Social Services, Health, Colleges and Universities, Tourism and Recreation, the Attorney General, Skills Development and Education to assist those who need intervenor services and interpreter services, and the policies of those ministries on the provision of those services, particularly in relation to interpreter screening, intervenor screening, service quality and training program quality;

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i) the availability of current intervenor apprenticeship programs and interpreter apprenticeship programs and their funding status;

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j) current practices regarding the hiring of sign language interpreters in educational and other community settings;

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k) the role of the Ministry of Colleges and Universities as it pertains to intervenor and sign language interpreter education, and its mandate to collect province-wide data on issues regarding the quality and effectiveness of the teaching of intervention and sign language interpreting in Ontario;

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l) the reason or reasons why no faculty of education in Ontario currently provides teacher training for instructors in intervenor programs and sign language interpreting programs; and

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m) such other matters that the ministry considers necessary to complete a thorough evaluation of provincial policies and practices concerning intervention services and sign language interpreting services.

Further, in the opinion of this House, the ministries of Colleges and Universities and Skills Development should take immediate steps to establish a provincial intervenor task force and a sign language interpreter task force, with the involvement of representatives of the deaf and deaf blind communities, professional intervenors and sign language interpreters, intervenor providers and sign language interpreter service providers, and intervenor trainers and sign language interpreter trainers, to develop short- and long-term goals for the expansion of intervenor services and sign language interpreter services, and to advise on apprenticeship programs and the establishment of an intervention education program and sign language interpreting education program at the college or university level;

The ministry should immediately establish timetables for pursuing apprenticeship program expansion; and

The ministry should report to the Legislative Assembly on these matters on or before the 31st day of October 1991.

The Deputy Speaker: Pursuant to standing order 94(c)(i), the honourable member has 10 minutes for his presentation.

Mr Malkowski: Before I actually talk a bit about the history of the problems in intervenor and interpreter services, I would like to make sure that the recommendation is included that we get representation from hard-of-hearing groups, deafened groups and parents of deaf children groups; that real-time captioning be considered as a form of interpreting for deafened individuals; that for deaf people who do not understand or access hearing interpreters, deaf intervenor interpreters be added as well; and that, when we spoke of all of the ministries, the Ministry of Correctional Services also be involved in the review of interpreter and intervention services.

I would like to talk a little bit about the history of interpreting and intervention. Those services have only been around professionally since 1980, so it is a very young profession. Interpreters' and intervenors' services prior to 1980 were mainly done by volunteers, family members, relatives and children of deaf or deaf-blind people. Interpreter training programs, in fact, were only established in 1987 and began at only a college level. An intervenor training program will be established this coming fall, and it will be the first program of its kind ever, and also at a college level.

Prior to 1980, when family members and relatives and children were used, many of these intervenors and interpreters were volunteers. The problem with that was there was no code of ethics they followed. Many of the children of deaf or deaf-blind people had to interpret for their parents in matters such as possible divorce cases, or the buying of houses or cars. Again, these people had to depend on their own children, even, for example, to interpret in a parent-teacher interview when the child himself was being discussed. So members can see that a tremendous number of communication problems existed.

Many people did not have the sign language skills or the knowledge and sensitivity and culture. Therefore much information was edited, and emotional involvement on the part of the interpreter or intervenor occurred, which meant there was a great deal of misunderstanding or misinformation. When incorrect decisions were made, often the child or the volunteer interpreter was blamed because effective service did not occur. Still today we see this happening. Some deaf people or deaf-blind people are forced to use their children as interpreters or intervenors simply because they cannot find quality, professional interpreters and cannot get intervenor services. That occurs to this very day.

The fact that there is so limited a number of interpreters and intervenors in the province of Ontario means these people are being used a great deal, which causes burnout. We are seeing physical damage being done to interpreters and intervenors. To give members an example, there are 80,000 deaf people in the province and only approximately 35 full-time interpreters; 600 deaf-blind people in the province and approximately eight full-time intervenors. This of course has a tremendous impact and is extremely frustrating for deaf, deaf-blind, hard-of-hearing and deafened individuals.

In trying to access information on a daily basis they are constantly limited. If they are trying to find a job and are able to obtain the job interview, they are told they have to wait two months before they can get an interpreter. The number of opportunities that are lost is tremendous because they cannot get qualified services. For things such as family counselling, legal appointments, doctors' appointments and psychological assessments, often qualified interpreters are not available.

I know of a deaf patient who was left in a hospital for one week. One of the family members flew in to see this individual to make sure he was all right and found out that he was actively hallucinating and talking about killing himself. Luckily that family member happened to be able to sign and began to interpret for the patient, telling the psychiatrist that the patient was hallucinating.

The psychiatrist thought the patient was fine and said: "This is my system. I walk in every day, and if they raise their hand like I do, it means they're okay. If they put their hand down, it means that they're not all right. That's our system of communication." Unfortunately, the deaf patient thought the doctor was simply saying hi, every morning and so waved back. Nobody had bothered to explain this communication system to the deaf patient. Nobody had provided appropriate treatment for this patient. Luckily the family member had found out in time; otherwise that person might have killed himself. Where are the professional ethics and responsibility in this sort of situation?

Deaf-blind people in this province need to access information about the world and yet are given only six hours of intervenor services a week. That six hours a week that they are provided has to include food shopping, talking to friends, having some sort of social contact and trying to access information of the world. I wonder how many members could survive with that type of access.

We all know of Helen Keller, who was a shining example of success. However, she had 24-hour intervention services in the form of Anne Sullivan. I wonder how many other Helen Kellers like her are hidden away, unable to access information, cut off from the world.

I know of a qualified teacher who became deafened. After losing their hearing the person lost their job as well, and applied to get into the teacher of the deaf training program, but was not accepted because the person could not hear, could not sign and could not lip-read. But what about real-time captioning and providing sign-language courses for this person? Instead, that did not happen, and they were denied the service.

Hard-of-hearing people often live in a world of hit-or-miss information and a great deal of misunderstanding occurs. Often we see that the problem is because oral interpreters are not provided.

We can see that all of these cases are extremely frustrating and dramatic. Members may think this is not common, but that is because they are used to everyday access to information. Our lives are not like that. We are dealing with very limited schedules and very frustrating experiences.

That means there are deaf people, deaf-blind people, deafened individuals and hard-of-hearing people ready to become directors, administrators, to study for their PhD, to become lawyers, social workers, counsellors and even politicians. The only thing that is stopping them is the requirement for high-level, highly skilled oral ASL-LSQ interpreters, captioning intervenors, so that they can have full access to information.

We need to establish interpreter training programs and intervenor programs at a university level so that if deaf students want to take their PhD courses, they do not have to use interpreters who do not even have a university background to interpret those courses. We have to see these programs at university level.

We also have to see apprenticeship programs established, so that after graduating from college, students who still need to upgrade their skills have a place to go. It would be like members taking a French course for a year and thinking that they had become French translators. I doubt that the Prime Minister's Office would hire them in that capacity.

Therefore, what we need is to see that highly qualified, highly trained interpreters, intervenors and captioning services exist for all individuals, because some day some members out there may also become deaf, hard-of-hearing or maybe deaf-blind, and they too will need interpreters, intervenors and captioning services so they can access information and be able to appreciate the information that exists out there.

We see a lot of deaf and deaf-blind people here with their intervenors or oral interpreters today, and deafened people who can access captioning systems. Now they are actually able to understand the political system. They are up here today in our galleries.

I think it is critical, in

summary, that this resolution is important, that all members support this resolution and that we do indeed establish such a review looking at interpreter-intervenor services and captioning services so that we have appropriate training and qualified people; that we have representation from the various interest parties, including deaf, deaf-blind, deafened and hard-of-hearing people so that we actually can establish long- and short-term goals of expansion of services and provision of service to meet the needs of all people. We shall become a model, an effective model I am sure, for the whole world.

Mr Curling: I want to commend the member for York East for bringing forward this resolution. I know of the hard work he had put in even before he was in Parliament, and he continues to fight for those individuals who are being deprived of expressing themselves and playing an important role in our society.

The four minutes or so that I am given is not quite an adequate time to express my emotions and commitment to this cause; however, I will try my best to do so. It is a long way, as the member said, from 1980 and from the time of voluntarism to a more structured manner of dealing with these concerns. Many things have been done.

I can recall, in 1988, that Richard Johnston, the former NDP member for Scarborough West, had met with a member who I think was then representing the Ontario Association of the Deaf in bringing about a resolution which at that time was supported by my party, the Liberal Party, and all members here.

In 1989, I recall too that our government, the Liberal government at the time, the previous government, released two comprehensive studies of educational programs and services in Ontario for the deaf and hard-of-hearing students. People are quite familiar with those programs as a review of the Ontario education programs for deaf and hard-of-hearing students. The other was the review of the Ontario post-secondary programs for deaf and hard-of-hearing students.

In 1990, the same member, Richard Johnston, introduced Bill 112, a private member's bill to amend the Education Act to make American sign language the language of instruction. I also recall that in June 1990, the minister of the day, the member for Renfrew North, announced that the American sign language pilot project would be undertaken, commencing September 1990. The initiative was, as members will recall, in response to the recommendation in the review of education programs for the deaf and hard-of-hearing.

In November of last year, the present Minister of Education announced four measures concerning the education of deaf and hard-of-hearing students, including such things as statements of the government and commitment to the American sign language as an optional language. It stated that within four years these rich, expansive languages will be established as the optional languages for learning in Ontario schools and programs.

Many things have been done in that time. I want to commend at this time the former member, Richard Johnston, for introducing a private member's bill. I urge the government of today, while this private member's bill is a very important one, to take it under its own wing and introduce it and, without much amendment, move forward with this bill. I know the role that the member plays; he is also part of that government. The bill would get much faster clout and we could have it properly debated if we bring it forward as a main bill, because many of us on this side would like to express ourselves and make sure that that commitment is not only said but felt.

At times it is good for us to be a part of this. It is not only the deaf or the blind who are being disfranchised in this society. Black people, for instance, feel disfranchised about the education system and feel that they are not given an opportunity to play an important role. The streaming and many other things they are faced with are just so much. I can understand the frustration of those people who have so much to give and lend and are unable to give it.

My other colleagues would like to speak. I would like to say to them that it would have been great if they had brought it forward as a government bill so that we could all have supported it strongly. I have no hesitation at all in supporting the honourable member's private member's bill.

Mrs Cunningham: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for this unique opportunity in this House. I would like to thank the member who has brought to this House for the first time in the history of Ontario an opportunity for all of us to support the important issue of allowing members of all disabled communities, but in this case especially the deaf and the deaf-blind communities, the opportunity to be full participating members in our society.

I would also like to take this opportunity to thank my colleague the member for Scarborough North, as he spoke on behalf of his government, which I think made great inroads into the improvement of this quality of life that we are talking about. I would like to remind especially those in the gallery today that they have a wonderful role model in this Legislative Assembly this morning.

He should be commended for the work he has done in the past and he should be commended especially today for the opportunity that we all have to see what can happen to someone who has been tremendously motivated, who has worked very hard in his life, who has made public life his contribution to the society in Ontario and to the improvement of the lives of others.

No one will be surprised to know that I, on behalf of the Progressive Conservative caucus, and all of us are here to support the resolution of the member for York East and to offer him our great thanks. In doing so, it would be unlike me not to give him some advice, because at the same time the great concern for all of us in this House is that we cannot be in all places at all times. It concerns me a little bit that maybe I will not be at one of these meetings. I would love to be there and to offer any help that I can as a person who has worked in London, Ontario, for the last 18 years.

In my very early years as a school board trustee, I was proud to be made aware of services that we provided both at the Robarts School Regional Centre for Hearing Handicapped and certainly in our own school board where we took a very different approach to teaching young children, not with American sign language but in other ways. I am here today to talk about all ways and especially to support the one that seems to be most important to the member for York East.

I will start by saying that the member's resolution is one that we and other governments, including our own government many years ago, will take seriously. We got started, did not move too quickly but got a lot of additional support from the Liberals, and now we have the NDP government which will move forward and that is what we need.

We should know that deaf education in Ontario has been widely criticized because of a lack of achievement by Ontario's deaf students. We have talked about that at the elementary, secondary and college levels, and no one knows better than the member for York East what I am talking about.

Post-secondary education opportunities are limited because of a lack of support services and, as a result, the deaf and hard-of-hearing communities face barriers to employment, promotion and job training. Even when they get jobs -- and I think a very important part that I have underlined today for the member in his deliberations is the fact that even when we have helped people to become important members, contributing members of our community, when they are so disabled, we do not continue to support them.

I am now talking about the real need for job coaching and job shadowing on an ongoing daily and weekly basis so that employers also understand that it is not easy to be disabled even with the support services, even with the kinds of drive and energy and the degree of success that the member for York East has received. Some of his own young students, colleagues and young people follow him and look at him as a role model.

Even with all that support, if employers are not aware of what is happening, of their responsibility and their gains as employers by supporting the disabled community in many facets of life -- but today we are talking about the deaf and hard-of-hearing, the hearing-impaired, the deaf-blind -- that has to be part of our mandate. Even after they have left our school systems and our colleges and universities, disabled people still have a right to ongoing education, and part of their education is educating their employers. I want to underline that today.

If Canada is to remain competitive in today's global economy, we must be able to produce a highly skilled work force of all kinds of people, not just people who have been able to make it on their own without support systems, but people who need support systems. As I stand in this House today, I do not think there is one of us here who does not have a special support system no matter what we are labelled, and I have been labelled many things in the last few days, but I will say that. With happiness I say it.

Of course, if Canada is to remain competitive we also have to make certain that all students are given the opportunity to attend our universities, our colleges and other post-secondary training institutions. Today, however, the services and opportunities, as we have been made very much aware, at the university and college level are not as universal and comprehensive as they ought to be. For this reason I believe it is important for the study of the support and intervenor services to heighten awareness of the need to facilitate educational opportunities for deaf and hard-of-hearing students.

We just have not done a good job of making citizens of Canada and Ontario aware of the necessary support services and what happens because of them, the wonderful degree of accomplishment and the wonderful degree of involvement in our society because people have had those kinds of opportunities. As a society, we must take measures that will make the education offered to all deaf and hearing-impaired students more open and supportive, and must respond to their needs as individuals and as participants of the community.

The study that my colleague the member for York East is proposing today is extremely comprehensive; I do not think I have seen a more comprehensive one. In fact, even at the end he added something he thought was important, and we should put that into it. I thought it was very important. I did not write it down, but I know there was another aspect he wanted us to talk about, and of course if the study is implemented it will hopefully answer a number of questions and make significant recommendations.

In doing my homework for this, I would like to give some credit to those citizens across Ontario who support all of us in our work and just to begin, I will talk first of all about the Canadian National Institute for the Blind. When we ask them for their support or for their encouragement or suggestions, they always respond. As elected representatives, they have never let us down and I would like to say that on the record today.

The Canadian Hearing Society also responded to our requests for information. A number of letters have been sent to my colleagues in the Progressive Conservative Party and to our leader, and we will certainly take their good advice today.

The Bob Rumball Centre for the Deaf has always been extremely helpful in so many ways to the legislators of this province. We count on them for the best advice they can give us as we proceed in the training and education of our young people.

I thought the member for York East would be most appreciative of the Canadian Deafened Persons Association's input, as its representatives pointed out some of the problems they have in getting themselves organized and also in looking for services for people who have become deaf later in life because of accidents or health or other reasons and have had no warning and no training for this disability.

As I look to my own community of London, I would like to thank Sandra Bend, who is the literacy instructor of Deaf-Blind Services in southwestern Ontario and has always been most helpful whenever I have needed some assistance on this matter.

Certainly the Board of Education for the City of London, which I think has been a leading school board in teaching and working with parents of children at a very early age -- one of the first young children I ever met was two years old and now we are taking them into the program even younger at the London board of education and other school boards across Ontario.

I would like now to talk about the concerns of Fanshawe College and other colleges. The administration at that particular college is most supportive and congratulates the member on this resolution this morning.

They do however remind us -- and certainly I can speak quite openly about this as the critic for Colleges and Universities, Skills Development and Education -- that when one is looking for programs in our society, one has to provide the support to the universities and the institutions that are providing those kinds of programs, as we talk about training interpreters today and as we talk about the kinds of intervention services that are so necessary for the deaf and the deaf-blind community.

We also have to make certain therefore that we do not -- and I know the members of the government will be quick to criticize if I am not careful in my choice of words. There are many services that the public of Ontario are most happy to pay for and they tell us about them, but they want those services delivered efficiently and effectively. No one knows better than the members of the government how much more efficient we ought to be.

I think it is up to every single member of this House to take a look at waste in government and places where we can improve the quality of service so that, at the same time, we are not making this particular program look like an add-on but like something that should be part of the services that are provided now. I know if we take a look at our priorities, we do not have to add additional funding; we have to transfer funding from one program to another. This one should have always been there, in my view.

I think we can find the money to do it, so for those who want to be critical, I can say right now I know it is there, and if anybody would take my good advice from time to time, I will find it for him.

At the same time, I think it is very important and I really would like to read a letter that was sent from the University of Western Ontario, because all of us go back to our home communities, and my two colleagues from London this afternoon, I am sure, would do the same thing. I think we are a particularly good team in that we help each other around resolutions, and when I have the opportunity to speak, I hear from them, the member for London South and the member for London Centre.

But today I would like to put on the record one of the notes from Dr Daniel Ling, because he speaks on behalf of certainly his own faculty, which is the applied health sciences at Elborn College. If the member for York East has not been there, I invite him today. They have done a wonderful expansion. They are dealing with small babies. They are looking at transplants, wonderful technology and opportunities for families today that were not available in the past, so we are looking at many ways of dealing with the issue that we talk about today.

Dr Ling says: "It is important at the outset to define the terms used in this resolution. Intervenors are interpreters who work as helpers for deaf-blind persons,

whereas interpreters are required for all hearing-impaired people who are unable to understand discourse without the provision of sign language or lip-reading cues provided by another person." It gives us an opportunity to make those distinctions.

He also says: "Because the degree of hearing impairment varies widely among both children and adults no one method of educational instruction or type of

interpretation can meet the needs of all hearing-impaired people. Accordingly, Mr Malkowski's resolution should be modified to recognize this." I am going to send this brief to the member for York East so that he can include these concerns from a very widely known educator, Dr Daniel Ling from the University of Western Ontario.

He says: "Unfortunately, adults cannot learn as well as children to interpret the information modern speech technology can provide. However, deaf adults can not only benefit from sign language and oral interpreting, they can also be helped by real-time written translation services that technology can currently help us provide."

I would hope that this study goes to the University of Western Ontario and takes a look at that wonderful new facility we have and that the member for York East will give me his viewpoints and tell me how I can help in my role as an opposition member, because from time to time we can stand up and help the member for York East along in the work he wants to have done.

At the same time, I would like to be kept informed of what is happening with the committee. I would also like to say I do hope we do not lose the good work that has gone on before -- and I will close with this -- the review of Ontario post-secondary education for deaf and hard-of-hearing students, as we take advantage of this opportunity to move about Ontario, to have hearings, to talk about all aspects of training and the need that the member for York East has talked about.

It has been a pleasure to stand here this morning and to take so much time to talk about something I feel so strongly about. I would like to congratulate the member for York East, to say it is a pleasure to have him here and we look forward to his future leadership.

Mrs Haslam: Unlike my colleague across the floor, I am not going to be able to talk for the full 15 minutes. We have many speakers over here and I am afraid my time allotment is not going to be that long, but I would like to talk today about intervention.

What is intervention? The Canadian National Society of the Deaf-Blind defines it as, "The provision of a professional service, paid or voluntary, to facilitate the interaction of a deaf-blind person with his environment."

I would like members to think for a minute about the term "deaf-blind." There are approximately 600 adults in Ontario who are designated deaf-blind and only eight full time intervenors.

Being a teacher, I am going to ask members to kind of bear with me and I am going to give them a scenario. I would like all members to close their eyes right now. Members should just close their eyes. I would like all members now to stop doing whatever they are doing, no turning pages, no writing, no talking, no noise. Imagine living like this. Imagine living in a darkened room with no sound whatsoever.

Think about it. You are not unintelligent. You wish to live an active life. You wish to participate and engage in leisure activities. You wish to learn, but without access to information, these wishes cannot come true. How would you cope? How would you go to school?

I have a letter from a constituent of mine, certain parts of which I would like to share with members. It says:

"Dear Ms Haslam:

"I am the parent of a 20-year-old multisensory-deprived person who has been both deaf and blind from birth. Presently my daughter is attending the W. Ross Macdonald School in Brantford. The school provides an excellent program and she has displayed a steady progression in both communication and living skills through the years.

"In order to interpret her world and to carry on the necessary living skills, she needs constant intervention. Intervention is a facility to ensure that multisensory-deprived persons have access to information and are able to pursue educational, vocational, avocational and social goals.

"At present, the school provides intervention through the week and her family becomes her intervenor on the weekend.

"She is now of school-leaving age. She will graduate in June. If there is no program which can adequately meet her needs, the only choice for her mother and I will be to keep her at home and hire a full-time intervenor, which we cannot afford, or institutionalize her in a total-care setting. Institutionalization would cause definite regression in all areas which we and the school have worked very intently to develop."

We here use our eyes and our ears 24 hours a day. With intervenors and volunteers, people have the opportunity for only six hours of interaction and intervention.

There are various communication methods. One of them is POP, where you spell into the hand of the person you are working for as an intervenor, and that is not easy. Imagine spelling every single word that someone is saying. But for the deaf-blind, this is a common method of communication in the community and, as in the movie about Helen Keller, they must learn this skill, they must be literate.

Intervenors also provide a link between the deaf-blind person and others. They provide instruction in the areas of mobility, communication, life skills like shopping and cooking, support for recreation activities and, also very important, counselling.

As the member for York East mentioned, it is not unusual for children to act as interpreters for their parents, even children eight years of age and even in a court system. When people require professional intervention, it is important that those intervenors have the skills necessary, because the decisions made will affect their lives.

Assessments are sometimes made, just as the member for York East has mentioned, with regard to a deaf-blind person being a slow learner, addressed as a slow learner or learning-disabled. It is not their incapacity to learn; it is their lack of access to learning facilities.

I am aware of a new course that is starting. George Brown College in Toronto has an intervenor training program that is opening in September 1991. It is a two-year certificate course, the first of its kind in the world. These courses are very important. With a properly trained intervenor, the deaf-blind individual could gain access to higher education. Through teaching and facilitation, deaf-blind people would be able to have independence. This is what intervention is all about.

Mr Ruprecht: The presence here today of so many members of the deaf-blind community and others shows their commitment to this resolution. I wish to thank the member for York East for this resolution, as it takes a significant step in the struggle to ensure that members of disabled communities will take their rightful place in terms of integration into our society at all levels.

I am reminded that not too long ago the previous Liberal government, of which I was a member, introduced the resolution by the United Nations proclaiming the Decade for Disabled Persons. The decade actually began in 1983. When we took office in 1985, it was Premier Peterson who decided at that time, along with our cabinet colleagues, that it was important to establish an Office for Disabled Persons. We did that in 1985. As soon as the decision was made to come up with a plan to follow suit with this decision, the United Nations declaration was proclaimed and I had the distinct honour at that time to become Ontario's first minister responsible for disabled persons.

We were conscious then, as soon as we declared the decade in 1985, that within the proclamation was a certain set of principles that could be shown to the people of Ontario, including disabled communities. They would then have some guidelines by which the government of the day and this government could be held accountable for their actions. We were conscious of that.

I think that today, whether it is this government or the previous government, we will be held accountable for this resolution and for other resolutions that will no doubt follow, because it is only fair and just for those members of the disabled communities and others to take their rightful place in the economic and social structure of this country and province.

What are these principles? One of course, the big one, is the principle of dignity and independence. The question would then be asked, because it is the proclamation of the Decade of Disabled Persons, what is this government or future governments or previous governments doing to ensure that there is dignity and independence for disabled persons? What about the question and principle of equal rights? What are we doing as a government to ensure that everyone has equal rights?

What are we doing as a government to ensure that there are enough processes of integrating or mechanisms or possibilities of integration being established so that every person may be able to contribute the best way, according to his ability, to the progress and future of this province?

It becomes very clear that the member for York East and his resolution be supported today and that the task force he is asking for, the intervenor and interpreter services task force, be established as soon as possible. We in this House have already indicated our support. I see no disagreement either from our colleagues to our left or our colleagues from this government. There are no persons who will speak in opposition to this task force.

The point will then be made, how soon will this government be able to implement the task force and implement the consequent recommendations that must be flowing from this task force? The responsibility then will be how quickly can the government act and what will it do once the recommendations come out?

In closing, let me congratulate the member for York East and congratulate those who are present here today, because their presence is an indication that they do wish to participate fully in the life of this province and what this province has to offer.

Mr Martin: At this time in our history, as we focus so sharply on questions of Confederation and who we are as a country, I think it is important to look at what we value. If we value actually a healthy, productive, prosperous community and if that is the ideal that all of us aspire to, then we need to listen to all sorts of people as they tell us what it is they need in order to be able to participate fully in the process of this great country evolving and reaching its potential.

My experience with the select committee on Ontario in Confederation as it went through northern Ontario certainly spoke volumes about that whole issue, particularly where it affected the folks whom we speak to today most directly, the deaf community in Ontario. The deaf community in Ontario is represented here. We must listen to them very seriously and take into consideration all that they are telling us and do whatever we can within our power to make sure we put in place those things that they see as essential so that they might reach their potential and participate fully in the society in which they live.

They have gathered here today in large numbers in this chamber. There is a group on its way from Belleville which got hung up in the truckers' demonstration in the province. They have actually abandoned their bus and are catching the GO train from Ajax to be here for the vote at 12 o'clock.

I have about 50 letters here this morning from folks in my own community of Sault Ste Marie, supporting the resolution that the member for York East has presented to us in the chamber this morning. We must not and cannot refuse to listen to this voice. The ability to communicate in their own native language seems to me, as I read the resolution, the key issue here. They are telling us that their native language is American sign language.

What do we value as a country, as a province? If it is people we value and we see people as valuable and want to maximize their potential, then we cannot but move quickly to pass this resolution and move it to a stage of legislation which will allow the folks who are here today and out there across the province to simply want to take their place, as was so ably presented to me at a function I was at recently where we were talking about providing opportunity for the teaching of ASL as a teachable subject. We so often get up hung up on names and language.

They mentioned the words "differently abled," and all of us in Ontario today, regardless of our assets or our liabilities, are differently abled. Let's get on with making sure that all of us can participate fully.

Mr Beer: It is a pleasure for me to rise in support of our colleague's resolution today. In the time available to me I would like to look at this motion from three perspectives: personal; some comments on the francophone element of this motion; and, finally, a few comments on the principles that I believe should be involved in carrying out the work of the task force.

I think it is important for those of us who have our hearing and our eyesight to try to look at an issue such as this at times from a personal perspective. I want to share with members part of the journey that I have taken in trying to understand better the needs of the hearing-impaired, of the deaf and the deaf-blind community. I want to refer to several members of my own family, an uncle and aunt of my wife, Gaines and Emma Fawcett. Emma is still alive, living in Brampton.

Gaines and Emma lived very full, vigorous lives. They were both deaf, but that never stopped them from travelling around the world, from living life, as they say, with full vigour.

Yet when I look at all of the elements in this resolution, I know that along the way there had to be many obstacles that they faced because the playing field was not an equal one, ways in which the kind of changes that Richard Johnston's bill brought before us in the past few years and that the motion which the member for York East has now brought before us would help not to change the spirit of their lives but to provide them with the help and assistance that at times they required.

I think it is very important that we look at it in that respect, because what we are trying to do is to make sure that the access to the kinds of services in fact becomes a reality.

I look at the lives of Gaines and Emma Fawcett and I then think of a much younger person, the daughter of one of my cousins, Melinda Riddle, who is completing this year the preliminary year at Gallaudet University in Washington. She, like Gaines and Emma, is a person of tremendous determination. There is just no question in the world that she will succeed at whatever she decides to do.

But what is exciting, I think, at this point in time, when we look at the changes that are going on in our own country, the United States and other countries is that in fact there will be a more equal playing field and that there will be the kinds of services and programs that we like to see, which will really be of direct assistance. I wish for Melinda no less the spirit and determination that Gaines and Emma have demonstrated throughout their lives, but now and in the future that there will be in all aspects of our lives more support for those who are deaf

J'aimerais souligner aussi l'importance de cette motion pour les francophones sourds et aveugles de notre province, parce que des fois nous oublions l'importance d'assurer les services et les programmes tant pour les francophones que pour les anglophones. Je sais fort bien qu'on va assurer ces services, mais il est très important, ce matin, de souligner ce point.

Finally there is the question of choice, because it seems to me that when we are dealing with services and programs for the disabled we want to create a society in which there is choice, so that we can have the development of ASL and LSQ and at the same time recognize concerns of parents about other kinds of programs and other kinds of support and help that they feel they want for their own families. It is important that we allow that choice. We in the hearing community must be sensitive to the kind of cultural dimensions of the deaf community in particular and to recognize the importance of ASL within that.

It has been a pleasure for me to rise in support of this motion, because I know it will do much for so many people in our province.

Mr Silipo: I am pleased to have the opportunity to rise, however briefly, to add my voice of support to the resolution presented this morning by the member for York East.

Because many people have spoken about the merits of the resolution, I want to simply underline my support for the resolution on the merits and to underscore the need for us to undertake the kind of fundamental assessment of the various provincial policies and practices relating to intervention services and sign language interpreting services and the many other points the member for York East has raised for us in the resolution.

I think the detail of the resolution speaks volumes to the kind of tenacity and thoroughness those of us who have had the opportunity to work with the member for York East have become accustomed to seeing. Certainly, having worked with him on the select committee on Ontario in Confederation, I know full well that tenacity and thoroughness of his dedication to this issue and to issues concerning all Ontarians, and am pleased to be able to support the resolution today.

As we travel led the province with our committee, we heard from a number of deaf people and disabled people and individuals in general. I think it is a tribute, therefore, that the kinds of things we heard across the province are expressed to some extent in the resolution that is here before us and also that there are present here this morning so many individuals who are deaf, deaf and blind or with other disabilities. In looking around, I think I have seen at least three different kinds of interpreting going on.

That is a fascinating tribute to the kinds of efforts that have been made and very clearly an indication of the kinds of things we as a Legislature need to continue to push to ensure that people all across Ontario, whatever their ability or disability may be, have the same kinds of opportunities to be full participants in our society.

M. Bisson: C'est avec plaisir que je profite de l'occasion de vous parler de cette motion aujourd'hui. Comme l'ont eu d'autres députés, par exemple le député de York-Nord et le député de Willowdale, j'ai eu la chance de travailler avec le député de York-Est durant les audiences publiques concernant la constitution tenues au mois de février dernier.

Ce qui m'a frappé pendant le temps de toute cette présentation qu'on a vue, en plus de l'expérience de travailler avec le député de York-Est, c'était la question sur les services qui sont offerts -- ou pas offerts, devrais-je dire. On était à Kenora, je pense, ou à Sioux Lookout, où on a rencontré un monsieur sourd et muet qui demeure dans la région nord-ouest de la province. Parmi ses confrères et consoeurs qui ont des problèmes avec leur ouie dans la communauté, personne ne parle.

Dans toute sa région, il n'y a personne dans le coin qu'il connaisse avec qui il peut communiquer parce qu'il n'y a personne qui connaît ni la langue des signes québécois ni l'American sign language. Ça fait sept ans, depuis qu'il y demeure, qu'il n'avait parlé à personne. La première personne à qui il avait parlé dans sept ans c'était le député de York-Est pendant nos audiences publiques.

Je me demande comment ça doit être difficile dans une situation semblable de n'avoir personne à qui on peut parler, personne à qui on peut donner nos expériences, personne avec qui on peut communiquer quand on a un problème ou développer une vie communautaire dans notre société.

A

part le manque de services dans cette province et dans le pays en général, ceux qui sont sourds et muets n'ont pas la chance d'utiliser le langage, souvent parce qu'il n'y a pas les services en place à travers les systèmes éducatifs ou à travers les services sociaux.

Un point qu'il faut se rappeler qui est très important, c'est qu'il faut donner un peu le contrôle de ce qui se passe avec les services à ceux qui se trouvent dans la communauté elle-même. Si on regarde dans l'éducation pour les interprètes soit de la LSQ ou l'ASL, c'est très important que ceux dans la communauté sont capables de donner ce que eux croient être important pour mener les services eux-mêmes.

Je voudrais que le monde appuie le projet de loi, mais l'important c'est qu'on se rappelle la question de donner à ceux dans la communauté elle-même non seulement de l'input, mais la gérance de leur système d'éducation et la gérance du curriculum nécessaire pour développer les fonctions.

Mr Malkowski: I would like to respond to a few of the comments made by the members. The member for Scarborough North was very helpful in helping us pass Bill 112, and I think there is still some unfinished business for us to do. I would also like to agree with the member for London North. I certainly invite her to be involved in work with the committee and would be happy to get her consultation. I am sure it would be helpful if Dr Ling sent me that letter of invitation. I would be happy to come and take a look at his program and look forward to working with all of them.

I think it is also important that we include all options, including auditory-verbal training, ASL, LSQ and so on and that all options be available as well as live-time captioning.

I was very impressed with many of the members, for example the members for Perth, Cochrane South and Dovercourt, who spoke about their own personal experiences, which were very inspiring. I think it has helped us in the whole education process. I also think it is important that we do look at independence and dignity, as was mentioned, and that this is critical. It is important that all of us support the resolution and that the Ministry of Colleges and Universities moves ahead with this resolution and the recommendations that come from it and that we hear from them by 31 October.

In closing, I would like to thank all of the deaf people, hard-of-hearing people, deafened people and deaf-blind people who have come out today with the services that have been provided. It is great to see that you are able to access the political arena.

I want to thank particularly Bob Rumball Association of the Deaf, Bob Rumball Centre of the Deaf, Canadian Deafened Persons Association, Canadian Hard of Hearing Association, Canadian Hearing Society, the Canadian National Society of the Deaf-Blind, Ontario Association of the Deaf, Ontario Deaf Sports Association, Ontario Cultural Society of the Deaf, Sheridan College, St Clair College, Ontario Association of Sign Language Interpreters and all the people who gave their support to this resolution.

HIGHWAY TRAFFIC AMENDMENT ACT (VOLUNTEER FIRE FIGHTERS), 1991 / LOI DE 1991 MODIFIANT LE CODE DE LA ROUTE (POMPIERS AUXILIAIRES)

Mrs Fawcett moved second reading of Bill 87,

An Act to amend the Highway Traffic Act with respect to Volunteer Fire Fighters.

M me Fawcett propose la deuxième lecture du projet de loi 87, Loi modifiant le Code de la route relativement aux pompiers auxiliaires.

Mrs Fawcett: I am pleased today to be announcing the second reading of Bill 87, which would grant to volunteer firefighters in Ontario the right to have their own designated licence plates. Firefighters on two separate occasions have spoken to me about a conference they attended where they learned that in several states volunteer firefighters receive a distinctive licence plate which designates that they are firefighters. This was effective in assisting them in arriving at the scene of the emergency as quickly as possible. This of course reduces the response time, resulting in the possibility of more lives being saved and less damage done.

When I served on municipal council in the village of Colborne, I was appointed council liaison to the fire department. In that capacity, I learned just how valuable this group of volunteers is in its respective communities. I also came to realize how little we show our appreciation to these brave men and women who risk their lives whenever that familiar fire siren goes off. I believe strongly that granting them their own designated licence plates is the least we can do to assist them in doing their jobs better, and also just plain to give them the recognition they so justly deserve.

Volunteer firefighters play a vital and important role in Ontario's fire fighting service. The facts speak for themselves. The province has 656 fire departments and almost 80% are fully staffed by volunteers. Numerically, volunteers are the backbone of Ontario and Canadian fire fighting services and outnumber career personnel by about four to one. They are essential to the provision of fire fighting forces in towns, villages and rural areas and to some extent in urban centres.

Whether they are called to service by the age-old siren or the modern portable pager, these dedicated people very often put themselves at risk for the safety of others. In rural Ontario it always means travelling either to the fire directly in their own vehicles or driving their vehicles to the fire hall. If the public at large can recognize these men and women in some manner, for instance, by a special licence plate, this will mean a faster job done. Cost savings to small municipalities are tremendous.

Consider this: Full-time firefighters are four times as expensive as volunteers, and fire protection costs per resident decrease as the percentage of volunteers increases. Furthermore, as a percentage of the total municipal revenue, financing a fire department may be as high as 10% for career staff departments, compared to only 1.2% for voluntary departments. As well, home owners, insurance rates are lower in areas protected by their own fire departments. In rural areas this is of the greatest significance, since fire departments would not exist if not for the volunteer firefighters.

There is no doubt that the estimated 16,000 part time firefighters who provide fire protection services to rural communities on a volunteer basis form the backbone of Ontario's fire fighting service. These dedicated men and women deserve our recognition.

A dramatic example of their dedication and value to society was more than evident during the tire fire at Hagersville. Volunteer firefighters from 11 departments across Haldimand-Norfolk region, more than 600 altogether, left their jobs, families and warm beds to fight the monster blaze that would not quit. In the end it was the firefighters who would not quit and the monster was slain.

Oft-times I have been on the main street of the village of Colborne when that familiar wail of the fire siren sounded. Because Highway 2 goes through the village, there is always a moderate flow of traffic. On occasion I have attempted to pick out volunteer cars trying to make it to the fire hall to do their duty, but it is very difficult. A designated licence plate would indeed be a start in this recognition process.

The dedicated volunteer firefighter is an inspiration to us all. He or she gives up evenings and weekends to train, and of course in this province often has to turn out in subzero weather to help his or her neighbours. They know the importance of keeping up to date with the challenges of this ever-changing technological world. Aside from extensive formal education at the Ontario Fire College in Gravenhurst, in which they pass the same exams and practical tests as full-time firefighters, volunteers spend many personal hours attending mutual aid meetings and other information sessions.

A mutual aid system operates across the province on a county, district or regional basis. In my riding of Northumberland alone there are 14 fire departments which have made a mutual assistance agreement. They include the departments in the municipalities of Harwood, Hope township, Baltimore, Bewdley, Cobourg, Port Hope, Colborne, Campbellford, Brighton, Murray township, Hastings, Roseneath, Warkworth and the Canadian Forces Base in Trenton.

By combining forces, firefighters not only can go to the assistance of a neighbouring community in the time of emergency, but they also combine funds for more frequent and less costly educational workshops. This ensures that up-to-date techniques and methods are relayed to all members in a region and that there is a standardized degree of skill and knowledge between departments.

Volunteer departments in the 1990s have many more demands and expectations placed on them today. For departments near major highways, members respond to as many highway accidents as structural fires. They are responsible not only for cleaning up fuel, but for freeing victims from the wreckage. Volunteer firefighters are also being trained to handle chemical spills, hazardous waste and are even being given paramedic-type training to respond to medical emergencies.

For these reasons I believe it is important that if at all possible, a car belonging to a volunteer firefighter should never be blocked in. This can happen at a community event that a volunteer might be attending, for example. It is no one's fault that he might be blocked in, because how does the public distinguish the cars? With a specialized licence plate, this kind of problem might be eased somewhat and response time cut down significantly. Also, just knowing that someone qualified in CPR, etc, is in the area can save a life in a drowning or a heart problem, for instance.

All firefighters, no matter where they are located, know that response time to a disaster is a key factor. Most volunteer departments are in rural communities and are continually trying to achieve the five-minute response time. The fact remains that most of the damage in a fire and other emergencies does happen in those first five minutes. Thus speed is of the essence.

However, as the law stands today, every time volunteer firefighters drive to a scene of emergency, they risk losing their personal driver's licence. The public expects and demands emergency help to arrive at the scene as quickly as possible, yet thousands of volunteer firefighters, skilled in a vast area of ways from performing CPR to dealing with chemical spills, are hampered from getting to where they are most needed. I believe we have to help here, and this bill could be a start.

It is critical that the public is aware of who these volunteers are when very often they are trying to rush through a crowd to a disaster scene. This way the authorities already on the scene can facilitate the volunteer's swift passage to where he or she is needed. Just cutting a few minutes in response time can make a difference between life and death. The cost of implementing this amendment would not be significant, but the result, more lives and property saved, certainly is.

I do not wish to infringe upon the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Transportation by dictating specifications of a special licence plate or the combination, let's say, of a plate and a flashing light. This is for the ministry to decide. However, one may consider an example used in the United States. In several states, the plate has a white background with red letters and a Maltese cross, the international symbol for firefighters.

Currently, this legislation to assist volunteer firefighters in their job is in place in 14 states. Similar legislation is strongly being considered in Nova Scotia and a number of maritime provinces. Furthermore, British Columbia and Quebec may consider this bill as a model for their own legislation, since their volunteer firefighters play a very large

part in their fire fighting service.

I am sure that every member of this House recognizes the value of volunteer firefighters. Changing lifestyles and social attitudes coupled with the increasing dangers and risk of liability are eroding the availability of this vital component of the fire protection picture.

I feel confident that each and every member can recognize the advantages of Bill 87. It is not complicated, nor is it a costly proposal. Similar legislation is in place throughout North America and has proven to be effective. Surely every member is interested in encouraging and assisting these wonderful men and women, volunteer firefighters, in their efforts to save homes, lives and property. I would very much appreciate members' support for this bill.

Mr McLean: I welcome this opportunity to make a few brief comments about this private member's bill, Bill 87,

An Act to amend the Highway Traffic Act with respect to Volunteer Fire Fighters.

The purpose of this bill is to authorize the issuance of special licence plates to motor vehicle owners or lessees who are volunteer firefighters. This plate would clearly indicate that the vehicle belongs to a volunteer firefighter.

Citizens in the small municipalities of Ontario rely on volunteer fire fighting staff for the provision of the fire protection services that we supply in this province. These volunteers are usually on call 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and they give up their evenings and weekends to take courses necessary for upgrading their skills and knowledge of fire fighting practices.

I have no problem with issuing special licence plates to our volunteer firefighters if it results in a quicker response to the scene of a blaze and if it permits them to park in areas close to the scene where parking is usually prohibited. This would then identify that they are volunteers.

While we are considering this bill today, we should also be giving some thought to a bill that I have in Orders and Notices, and it is one that regulates fire alarms. When that bill comes before the House for second reading, I hope that people in this Legislature will realize the importance of that bill as well as the one we are dealing with today. That bill also involves volunteer firefighters and people from the police department. When we are looking at the problems we have today with the emergency reaction we need, my bill would cut down on some of these false alarms.

Today, it costs the fire department in Orillia $500 for a false alarm. Those prices are staggering when you realize they could be avoided if the equipment were used properly. The most common situations involve employees inadvertently triggering an alarm at their place of business. While debating this bill here today, we should also be giving serious consideration to my private member's bill as a bill compatible with this one, because of the seriousness of the fire departments and their responses.

We have more than 16,000 volunteer firefighters in Ontario. I remember a while back there was a request that there be a light to identify them on the way to a fire, which never got to first base, so to speak. I do believe identifying licence plates would be used appropriately and properly. If they were not, there would be some provision for stiff penalties for those volunteers who did not use them properly.

I notice in the bill, with regard to the volunteer fire fighters getting the licence plate, there is also provision that, "A person to whom a number plate has been issued under subsection (3f) shall return to the plate to the ministry forthwith upon ceasing to be a volunteer fire fighter under the Fire Departments Act." I think that is appropriate, because there is a turnover of volunteer firefighters. That

section I certainly agree with. When they are no longer involved as volunteers, that plate should be reverted back in.

Simcoe County Mutual Aid is an organization that coordinates across the county the volunteer firefighters. It is an organization that sets up training periods and makes sure the numbers of volunteers are appropriate. The municipality of which I was at one time reeve had 88 volunteers in that one municipality alone, so when you look across the province as a whole, the numbers are staggering.

When emergency vehicles respond to highway accidents and the calls, our volunteer firefighters also are called to those accidents, in most cases on our major highways. There is an important aspect here of Bill 87, and that has to do with the incentive we could give to the volunteers.

I support in principle private member's Bill 87,

An Act to amend the Highway Traffic Act with respect to Volunteer Fire Fighters, but at the same time I believe there is a very real need for legislation like my private member's bill with regard to the false alarms. Members can stay tuned for that and we will relate that at another time.

We owe it to our police, ambulance and fire officials to give this bill a speedy passage, and I will be supporting the bill here in this Legislature today. Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to say a few words.

Mr Dadamo: I would like to respond to Bill 87 this morning,

an act amending the Highway Traffic Act, which is currently being introduced by the member for Northumberland and is also slated for second reading.

Let me say at the outset that I commend the member with regard to this bill. Its purpose, as I see it, is to authorize the issuance of special licence plates to motor vehicle owners or leasers who are volunteer firefighters in order to ensure that such vehicles are readily identifiable while responding to an emergency. It would also serve to recognize the important contribution these men and women make to their communities and to underline their own commitment to public safety in the province of Ontario.

The duties of volunteer firefighters are onerous. They must undergo extensive training and must be prepared to respond to all kinds of emergencies, not just fires. They are trained in CPR, chemical spills and, of course, other emergency situations.

These firefighters give enormous amounts of their personal time to community service. By way of example, they respond in the middle of the night, many times on a moment's notice.

The Ministry of Transportation does not currently have a specialized licence plate series for personal vehicles that are owned or leased by employees or volunteers of any emergency response agency in the province. This includes full-time municipal firefighters, ambulance attendants and, of course, police. Under the existing system, municipal fire department vehicles are registered under the regular commercial series.

The issuance of a special plate series to identify personal vehicles owned or leased by volunteer firefighters would require changes to public awareness programs, law enforcement awareness materials and our vehicle registration system in Ontario. None of these problems, however, is insurmountable, and they pale beside the necessity of this kind of designation of these vehicles when they are responding to an emergency situation.

The majority of damage caused by fire occurs in the first five minutes. The first five minutes is the critical point, the point at which someone's home will be saved or lost. Because of this fact, we cannot underestimate the importance of a firefighter's ability to respond quickly to an emergency situation where people's lives and properties are at stake.

Some people may express concerns that a special licence plate will be in fact a licence to speed. I do not believe that for one moment. The men and women in this province who dedicate themselves to this important community work are doing so because they are concerned about safety and because they care about the lives of their neighbours. I cannot believe it is possible that people who are spending large amounts of their personal time in training and working to save lives and property would do so only in order to drive faster.

In view of these facts, I want to offer my support of this bill in principle and urge the other members of my party to support it as well, recognizing that we will need to explore implementation issues. Of course we will be consulting with firefighters in Ontario in order to explore this bill further.

Mr Offer: Let me say what a pleasure and in fact honour it is for me to partake in this debate on a very important piece of legislation by the member for Northumberland. I speak very much in favour of the legislation.

I believe this is a piece of legislation whose time has really come. It is a piece of legislation that embraces the issue of recognition for those many thousands of individuals who take it upon themselves to act as volunteer firefighters. You know, Madam Speaker, the member has well indicated the incredible number of individuals who do take this as their goal and job.

There are many examples of heroism, of courage, by volunteer firefighters. I believe this designation on the licence plate is one which is necessary not only for recognition purposes, but indeed for safety purposes, because it sends out a message when an individual's licence would be so designated, a message to the public that this individual is a volunteer firefighter and is attempting as best he or she can to go either to the fire station or directly to the place where the emergency is called for.

I believe it is a message which the public wants to hear and a licence plate designation is one which would permit that. It would result in a better response time, it would enhance safety and it would make the job, the role, the task, the duty of the volunteer firefighter just that much easier -- not easy by any stretch of the imagination, but a little less onerous.

Many examples are in existence of the volunteer firefighters. The honourable member for Northumberland has already indicated the many hundreds of individuals who took

part in the Hagersville tire fire -- the largest tire fire in North American history -- and that was, in large measure, put out in a very few days, against all odds, and it was their determination which permitted that to happen.

The volunteer fire fighting service is one which has a very storied past. Two or three weeks ago I had occasion to convey a plaque of appreciation to two individuals who reside in my riding, Kirby Burns and Norman Russell, who were members of what was then the Streetsville fire department, which was a volunteer organization and had been since 1937. It was a very interesting, informative celebration. There was a luncheon, with plaques provided to those individuals as recipients, and certainly as symbolic of the efforts of so many others who were part of the Streetsville fire department.

I was very pleased and honoured to have the opportunity to be with them that afternoon and hear some of the examples of the department in many years as to how they responded to emergencies.

This particular piece of legislation is one which is necessary for its recognition, for its safety, for its response time improvements. It does not permit those with the licence plate designation to go through red lights or to go through stop signs. It does not permit them to do anything that the normal driver could or cannot do. All it does is send a message to the public that this is a member of the volunteer fire fighting service who is currently on some call of some sort, and we all know the variety of calls that can certainly take place.

I have read the piece of legislation and I believe it is very necessary. I hope all members of the Legislature will support this initiative by the member for Northumberland. There should not be a member in this Legislature who is against this particular piece of legislation. Why? Because there are already licence plates with designations on them. The Lieutenant Governor of this province has the designation on the Lieutenant Governor's licence. In fact, many mayors of many municipalities have, as a designation on their licence plates, the word "mayor;" again, a sense of information to the public.

There is certainly no member of this Legislature who should be against any designation on his or her licence plate because each member has the opportunity to have "MPP" put on his or her licence. If it is permissible for all members of this Legislature to have the designation "MPP" with a number following, then surely no member of this Legislature should be against volunteer firefighters having on their licence plates a similar form of designation.

It is a piece of legislation whose time has come. It is one which embraces the concepts of safety, response time and recognition, and it is one which promotes volunteer firefighters and the men and women who have served in that association, the many Kirby Burnses and Norman Russells of my riding and the Streetsville fire department who have given so many years of their time and service to make this place and this province a safer place for all others. I support this legislation wholeheartedly. I commend it to all other members.

Mr Arnott: I am very pleased to have the opportunity to rise and speak for a few minutes on Bill 87,

An Act to amend the Highway Traffic Act with respect to Volunteer Fire Fighters, and I am pleased to congratulate the member for Northumberland on her excellent initiative.

The purpose of the bill, as I see it, is to authorize the issuance of special licence plates to motor vehicle owners or lessees who are volunteer firefighters. The plate would indicate that the vehicle belongs to a volunteer firefighter.

The way I look at this bill, when I immediately started to read it and tried to decide what the implications were, I see it as an issue of recognition for our volunteer firefighters. In my riding, in Wellington, rural Ontario, we rely greatly on our volunteer firefighters. We could not do without them. The member for Northumberland talked about the cost-effectiveness of having a volunteer fire department over a professional one -- I should not say professional, but a full-time, paid one. Certainly the volunteer firefighters are as professional as we can get. We need that cost-effectiveness in rural Ontario.

The province of Ontario has to support our volunteer fire departments so that they can have the resources to adequately do the job which they are doing at the present time.

The professionalism of our volunteer firefighters is absolutely wonderful and I think, as the member for Mississauga North indicated, we in this Legislature should have a good understanding of how the volunteer firefighters have to operate. As we have the option to have our own designated licence plate, like the volunteer firefighters, we are on call 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and I think that we understand as well as anyone the public service commitment that often requires to be called out of bed in the middle of the night or whatever. I think we should be conscious of that, and we should be willing to recognize the firefighters in any way we can and thank them in any way we can.

There were some questions that came to my mind when I started perusing the bill. I wondered if perhaps a flashing light on the dash of the car might be a good idea as well in terms of recognition. If members can imagine a firefighter having to race to the scene of a fire or race to his fire department office to get on his truck, if he had any assistance to better enable the cars around him to recognize that he was in a hurry, I think that would be a plus and hence something that should be explored.

I also think that if members look at other professions and jobs that require emergency response -- physicians come to mind immediately, police officers on an off-duty basis perhaps, ambulance workers -- many of them require an immediate, urgent response, and time is very much of the essence. So we should probably consider those groups as well if we are talking about giving designated plates for volunteer firefighters.

I was pleased to hear the comments from the member for Windsor-Sandwich and his indication of support, because I think that holds a lot of sway on that side of the government. I am very pleased to hear that the Ministry of Transportation will take a receptive view to this bill, because I know that in my riding there are fire departments that have had concerns about policies coming from the Ministry of Transportation.

Most recently, I received a letter from Fire Chief A.G. Slade of the Puslinch volunteer fire department, one of the busiest and most professional departments in my riding. They have an additional obligation, having to respond often to accidents on the 401, which bisects Puslinch township, if there is an accident there. Because of the fact that the present government is not giving adequate police resources in the south part of my riding, and the undermanning problem we have in the Guelph area and the south and east of the riding, the fire department is asked, and obligated, to respond often to police calls, unfortunately, because we do not have enough police resources.

But on another issue that is affecting the Puslinch Fire Department, it recently received a letter from the Ministry of Transportation, dated 15 March, from the head of program administration and evaluation, which indicates that the ministry wants some sort of change which will affect my fire department in Puslinch. It states in the letter:

"It has recently come to my attention that the authority to certify the competency of drivers associated with the Wellington County Mutual Aid has been granted several years ago. This practice contradicts the policies and procedures governing the driver certification program in that: (1) drivers are not employees of the named recognized authority and, (2) the named recognized authority official has insufficient control over each fire department to ensure the integrity of the delivery of initial and ongoing training."

I spoke to Fire Chief Slade on this and I certainly agree with his response to this letter which is that the existing system for training firefighters in Wellington county, as sponsored by Wellington County Mutual Aid, is very satisfactory and in fact safer than what the ministry is proposing.

In response to this letter, I got together with Chief Slade and we worked together and responded to the minister about two weeks ago, indicating our concern about the ministry's initiative to change the existing system in Wellington county.

We feel in Wellington county that Captain Don McCrone from Guelph has been very important in ensuring a very safe measure of operation of fire vehicles in Wellington county and that any initiative from Queen's Park that will prevent him from being able to offer his advice and assistance, which he does, again, after hours, on the weekends -- he makes himself available to all the fire departments in the county that require his advice and his counsel -- far better I think than the system the ministry may be suggesting.

So I feel very strongly about this and I hope that the Ministry of Transportation and the minister specifically -- I see him in the House at the moment -- will respond to our concerns in an appropriate way.

I would like to close by urging all members of this House to support Bill 87. I think it is a very important common sense initiative, and I hope we will have unanimous support for this bill.

Mr Mills: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Unlike my colleague, the member for Simcoe East, I wear glasses, but I recognize your gender from a distance and I am glad you are in the Chair this morning.

I am very pleased to rise and speak in support of this bill this morning on a couple of planks. The member for Northumberland's riding joins mine in Durham East, and we have some services that cross the border of the two ridings: police and, notably perhaps, education. So I am pleased to stand here this morning and speak as the member for Durham East and also as parliamentary assistant to the Solicitor General.

We in this House know that the fire fighting of the province is under the umbrella of the Solicitor General, but the people who may be watching the proceedings here this morning may not be quite clear about that. The fire fighting portion operated by the Solicitor General is under the supervision of a very fine assistant deputy minister.

I appreciate this morning the comments that the member for Northumberland has made on Bill 87,

An Act to amend the Highway Traffic Act with respect to Volunteer Fire Fighters, and many of the things she said I concur with. I am not going to waste time repeating them because they are on the record, and the fact that I concur with them is also on the record.

Volunteer firefighters are truly the backbone of public safety in Ontario, and at this point I would just like to make note and read into the record the many fine volunteers that man fire stations in the riding of Durham East. They are to be found in Bethany, Blackstock, Bowmanville, Brooklin, Curtis, Hampton, Janetville, Newcastle Village, Newtonville, where I live in Orono, Oshawa, Pontypool, Port Perry and Whitby, a riding I share with my honourable friend to the left of me.

When one considers that more than 550 fire departments in Ontario are served exclusively by volunteers, one can appreciate how valuable they are to the citizens of Ontario. Also, Madam Speaker, I do not have to remind you of the cost that regular firefighters would add to the bill for the province, when these people do this on a volunteer basis.

We owe these dedicated officials a great deal and we should do whatever we can, not only to recognize their contributions but to facilitate their work and other public safety endeavours. However, as we have heard from the member for Windsor-Sandwich, there are some technical difficulties with this bill, and I for one think we may be opening the door and that every organization may want some sort of specialized licence plates. That is one of the concerns I have. I know, as an ex-member of the military in Canada, there was a drive some years ago that we could have special licence plates to recognize our service to this country, so we know that there are a number of difficulties with this bill.

Last week the Ontario Association of Fire Chiefs passed a resolution at its convention requesting the government to issue special licence plates for volunteer firefighters. However, in making this recommendation they also recognized the number of technical difficulties which would have to be overcome for the effective implementation of this program. There are several options that could be used in this area, such as window stickers, decals and licence plate holders, and I believe these can best be explored in a forum where the views and expertise of all the parties can be obtained.

I heard comments from the member for Simcoe East and the member for Wellington in so far as why we could not do something about lights. I would like to let them know it is my belief that this is under consideration and some discussion at the Ministry of the Solicitor General right now. They may be looking into some alternatives.

In

summary, the Solicitor General fully supports the principle and the intent of this legislation as a symbol of recognition of the dedicated service provided by the volunteer firefighters of Ontario and as a symbol of the need to facilitate their efforts to improve the safety of our communities. However, a caution: We need to find a mechanism to achieve this which is efficient, effective and responsive. I am sure this can be achieved.

On a last note, I heard some comment in the House this morning about the MPPs' licence plates. I believe members can get them and put a number after them. Thankfully, I have not gone that route. I drove Highway 401 last night to a meeting of the good neighbours in my riding, and I was very glad that my licence plate reads, RUBY 88, which indicates that in 1988 my wife and I celebrated our 40th wedding anniversary. On that note, I will close.

Mr Conway: My good friend from Colborne, the member for Northumberland, asked me to speak to this bill, and I thought I would take a few moments to say a few words. My friend from Colborne is a very thoughtful member of the Legislature and she said it very well, I thought, in her opening remarks.

On the question of licence plates, I have spoken over the years quite negatively actually about a subject that has developed in the course of some of this debate. I felt since the day I was elected the whole idea that members of the Legislature or, for that matter, members of Parliament ought to have special licence plates was just at a very minor level quite ridiculous. In fact I think it anticipated a certain dimension of conflict of interest. I have always felt, what is in the community that has an interest in looking at licence plates? Police officers.

Why would members of the Legislature want to advertise their special status to members of the police? God knows, I am stopped enough and I am happy to report --

Interjections.

Mr Conway: My friend the member for Durham East said his licence plate is RUBY 88. I think mine is 524 HWZ.

I think my friend the member for Etobicoke-Rexdale might even remember a debate or two years ago when we were talking about some of these questions. I really do feel at a very secondary level that the idea that members of Parliament get the MHC designation and MLAs get the MPP designation should be dispensed with. I repeat that from my point of view there really is only one group of people in the community that has an interest in reading licence plates. I do not think members of Parliament should be advertising their special status to those people, because there is a capacity there for compromise.

It has probably not ever happened, but it seems me to that is one designation that should be dispensed with.

In this case, as my friend from Colborne, the member for Northumberland, has stated so eloquently, those of us who particularly represent rural communities -- and I doubt that there are any other members of the Legislature who have a constituency more thoroughly rural than mine -- appreciate the importance that the volunteer fire services provide to the community.

Just last Saturday I was in the hamlet of Quadeville in the southwest part of the county of Renfrew and on that very happy occasion we were officiating at the opening of the new fire hall. The ruggedly rural united townships of Brudenell and Lyndoch in the county of Renfrew have a very substantial volunteer fire department, which has petitioned me on several occasions over the years about the inadequacy of provincial assistance, particularly for purposes of capital purchases like equipment. We have been through that. My friend from Orono, the member for Durham East, has probably reviewed some of the files himself in his capacity as parliamentary assistant to the Solicitor General.

There are a number of areas, for whatever good or bad reason, where Ontario has not been able to provide assistance to the volunteer fire departments, but certainly this is one area where apparently there is a real desire by the association and by individual members of volunteer fire services for the special licence plate designation. I do not see in this case, as I do in the case earlier mentioned, a problem.

Apparently it is unanimous in the view of the members who have spoken to this debate that we ought to support this. I would recommend that. I think it is a good idea because it would support this very important part of the volunteer community and because the community of volunteer fire departments has made a specific request for consideration.

I simply want to join the members from Wellington, Colborne and Orono and others who have indicated their interest in and support for this resolution by adding my support and by adding again a personal word of comment and commendations for the scores of people in my county of Renfrew, where we have some 36 municipalities, most of which are very rural, all of which I believe are served in one way or another by hundreds of men and women who give enormous amounts of their time, of their financial support and of their energy to ensure that those of us who live in the cottage country or in the small hamlets are well and ably supported by these very excellent volunteer firefighters.

Hon Mr Philip: I just want to rise as the Minister of Transportation and congratulate the member for Northumberland on identifying a real need. I have expressed to her my support for this bill and I have suggested to her that my staff and I are willing to work with her in looking at ways in which we may be able to implement certainly the intent of the bill in perhaps an unbureaucratic, inexpensive way. I am concerned that if we go ahead with it in a certain way, it could be quite expensive, but I am sure we can resolve those problems.

I want to congratulate her for bringing it to the attention of the House and to my attention as the minister. My ministry will be working with her to implement the contents of this bill. I give her full credit for it.

I also would be remiss if I did not say that I do agree with some of the comments of the member for Renfrew North. Maybe he and I can convince our colleagues to do something about the concerns he has expressed that I think I have expressed in opposition. Perhaps it is time we look at those concerns as well.

Mr Owens: I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the member for Northumberland for bringing this bill forward. I think we all realize part of the problem with being the last or next-to-last speaker is that all the good things have been said, but I think some of them bear repeating.

We recognize that the volunteer fire department is made up of hardworking volunteers, individuals who put their lives at risk for zero pay and for zero benefits. They do not just come out on nice spring evenings; they are there no matter what the weather, no matter what the time of day. We need to recognize these folks in some way. I think the least we can do for them is to make specialized licence plates.

As the parliamentary assistant to the Ministry of Correctional Services, I can say that we need all the job creation programs we can give for the folks who are currently guests in our institutions.

These firefighters are required to participate in extensive training exercises. No longer do we have the days of the bucket brigades where we see in some of the older films, which I of course am too young to remember, the buckets going from hand to hand to put out the fires. Those days are long gone. As the member for Windsor-Sandwich mentioned, volunteer firefighters are now expected to deal with chemical spills, traffic accidents and all sorts of mayhem that we create for ourselves in this society.

In closing, I am glad that our Minister of Transportation will be working closely with the member to implement this program. I congratulate the member once again for bringing this bill to this House.

Mr Perruzza: I think all has been said in this debate that needs to be said with respect to the bill, but I do want to voice an acknowledgement which I think the third party would do well to take. This morning an opposition member brought forward an initiative. That initiative has been embraced by what I can see is an overwhelming majority of our party. The minister has stood in this House as well and has both applauded the initiative and reassured the member of the official opposition that her initiative will be well taken and well received by his ministry.

It shows that there is a level of co-operativeness, of good spirit. There is really good spirit in this House this morning, and I hope it carries on into the debate in the afternoon. I think the Conservatives would do well to take this kind of spirit, this kind of initiative, this kind of compromise into the debate this afternoon and stop the blatant, obstructive grandstanding that they have been carrying on with for the last several days on an initiative that really --

The Acting Speaker (Mrs Haslam): Time. Thank you.

Mrs Fawcett: I really want to express my sincere gratitude to all members in this House this morning for their support of this bill. I believe that volunteer firefighters across this province are very happy to have received all of the accolades that have been given.

I want to thank my two caucus colleagues for their remarks and their fine support. I do want to say a special word of thanks to the minister because it is very special that he has taken the time to come into the House this morning and speak of co-operation, which I certainly will give, in coming to a decision on the kind of designation that we wish to give these men and women who deserve it. Perhaps too, included in this consultation, would be the firefighters' association, so that we can really come up with something that everyone is happy with.

I want to reiterate that in no way is this a licence to speed, just as several members have said. This is recognition only, recognition that they deserve.

Two of the members, the member for Simcoe East and the member for Wellington, did mention a light. Actually, there is a

section right now of the Highway Traffic Act that states that a volunteer firefighter may carry on the left front fender of his motor vehicle an amber and white flashing light showing the letters VFF. Unfortunately, that light is no longer manufactured, so we really need some other method. I quote from a letter of Jerry Candler from the township of Sidney, a fire prevention officer. He said they are using a rotating green light, but I think together we can consult.

Once again, I thank everyone for support in this very important matter.

INTERVENORS AND SIGN LANGUAGE INTERPRETERS SERVICES D'INTERVENTION ET INTERPRETÈS DE LANGUES DE SIGNES

The Acting Speaker: Mr Malkowski has moved resolution 13.

Motion agreed to.

HIGHWAY TRAFFIC AMENDMENT ACT (VOLUNTEER FIRE FIGHTERS), 1991 / LOI DE 1991 MODIFIANT LE CODE DE LA ROUTE (POMPIERS AUXILIAIRES)

The Acting Speaker: Mrs Fawcett has moved second reading of Bill 87.

Motion agreed to.

The Acting Speaker: Pursuant to standing order 94(k), the bill is referred to committee of the whole House.

Mr Bisson: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: In regard to the bill, is it supposed to be a committee of the House, not of the whole House?

The Acting Speaker: Your point of order is incorrect. It does go to committee of the whole House.

Mr Jackson: They are killing the bill. You don't want to refer it to a private committee.

The Acting Speaker: That is fine. Thank you.

Hon Mr Philip: My understanding was that members wanted it to go to the standing committee on administration of justice, and I think that is where it should go.

Mr Bisson: On a point of order, Madam Speaker: I was not out of order.

The Acting Speaker: There was no one standing, and until somebody stands, it does go to committee of the whole House.

Shall this bill be referred to the justice committee? All those in favour of this question? Agreed.

Bill ordered for standing committee on administration of justice.

Le projet de loi est déféré au comité permanent de l'administration de la justice.

The House recessed at 12:03.

AFTERNOON SITTING

The House resumed at 1330.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

EASTER SEAL RUN/WALKATHON

Mr Beer: On the morning of Sunday 26 May months of planning and years of experience will culminate in the 15th annual Persechini Easter Seal Run/Walkathon.

What started in 1976 as a small group of club members and friends having a bit of a lark has grown into an event requiring hundreds of volunteer workers and involving more than 2,250 participants. As the brainchild of Joe and Rosalia Persechini grows into its third decade, it is difficult to measure its impact. In cold financial terms the event has contributed more than $660,000 to charity. This year the goal is to raise $100,000.

In more human terms, the activity translates into a deeper understanding of the work of Easter Seals, a framework within which friendships and community spirit are forged and an opportunity for individuals to make an important contribution. To give special meaning to the 15th anniversary, David Blackwell, the co-chair of the run, has invited back all the Easter Seal Timmys and Tammys.

The annual effort adds up to real dollars being raised for the Easter Seal Society, which supports a variety of work, all of it focused on improving the lot of disabled children and their families. The society is at the forefront of research into the cause, treatment and prevention of paediatric disability, diseases that disable children.

To Joe and Rosalia Persechini, Dave Blackwell and everyone involved, I know we all wish them a most successful 15th run.

TENDERING PROCESS

Mr B. Murdoch: I would like to bring to the attention of this House and the Minister of Health my very real concern with the policy of awarding contracts to companies which import equipment from the United States rather than to those which manufacture their goods in this country at competitive prices.

Edwards, of Owen Sound in my riding, a unit of General Signal Ltd, has been supplying and servicing fire alarm equipment to hospitals in this province for some time. Since the election it has bid on two jobs, one at Oakville-Trafalgar Memorial Hospital and the other at the Kitchener-Waterloo Hospital. On both occasions Edwards bid according to the plans and specifications. This past time, after the bids were opened, the hospital decided to have the successful contractor submit an alternative supplier outside the tendering process, against the wishes of Edwards. Edwards was not allowed to respond to the alternative bid.

In the past it has been inappropriate to consider alternative approaches after the tender process without allowing competitors the opportunity to also reconsider.

Something very peculiar is happening here and I would ask the minister to investigate. Edwards employs 800 people in Ontario and is the only major fire alarm manufacturer to produce its equipment in Canada. As of today no purchase orders have been submitted, so the situation can still be rectified if the minister moves immediately to do so.

However, should this practice of not allowing fair competition continue without a reasonable explanation, it will mean a severe loss of jobs in my riding and in the province in general. With our economy already suffering, this will --

The Speaker: Thank you.

LABOUR ISSUES

Mr Hayes: I spent 27 years in the auto industry. Over those years I have fought hard representing workers, fighting for decent health and safety legislation, improvements in workers' compensation and wage protection, while the members opposite fought against any of those improvements. I also worked hard against free trade, the GST and high interest rates while the members opposite supported free trade, high interest rates and deregulation of the trucking industry, which all cost tens of thousands of jobs in this country.

It really upsets me when I see politicians -- especially the Tories, who are antilabour and have continually suppressed workers in this country -- suddenly change their tune and proclaim they are on the side of labour. This is hypocrisy and an insult to me and all my colleagues who have worked hard on behalf of the workers. I am very pleased that we finally have a Minister of Labour, the member for Hamilton East, who cares for workers in this country.

GLOBAL WARMING

Mr McGuinty: The most serious environmental challenge facing us today is the threat of global warming. If unchecked, scientists agree the buildup of greenhouse gases will have its greatest impact on the northernmost countries, such as Canada.

In order to better wrestle with this problem, the previous government struck a select committee on energy, issued a discussion paper on global warming and committed to releasing a white paper in December 1990.

The NDP, prior to the election, made a specific commitment to reducing carbon dioxide emissions. Since the election, we have seen no movement of any kind on the part of this government to address global warming.

But the outside world has not stood still. Germany, New Zealand, the Netherlands, Australia, Japan, Norway, Sweden, the European Community as a whole, Canada, the states of Oregon and New York, and the cities of Toronto and Vancouver have all made specific commitments to reducing carbon dioxide emissions.

Our province has a proud history of being a world leader in terms of environmental and energy initiatives, but we are slipping badly on the global warming front.

Global warming demands a response from this government. Instead, we have only questions. Does this government intend to address global warming and if so, how and when? What about Ontario Hydro, a large contributor to global warming? What direction will the government be giving to Marc Eliesen, the new chairman, and to Al Holt, the person who I understand will be the new president?

We are tired of asking questions. Global warming demands a response now.

TRUCKING INDUSTRY

Mr Villeneuve: In this government's hurry to provide various benefits, it seems that the only ones missing are those that will help employees remain as employees -- the employers who sign the cheques.

This budget has not made it easier for any employers to create jobs or to keep jobs in Ontario. In fact, the opposite is happening. This budget is prolonging the procession.

Glengarry Transport Ltd, for instance, will only survive now if its employees take a 42.5% wage cut over the next three years. That is what high payroll taxes, diesel fuel taxes, tire taxes, income taxes and other taxes have done.

The Treasurer and members opposite should be aware that GTL, Canada's fourth-largest trucking company, was forced into declaring bankruptcy last week. It should come as no surprise that the company found higher taxes and higher costs of doing business in Ontario to be the main reasons for its losses in recent years. GTL has depots in about 19 Ontario and Quebec cities and 800-plus employees. Even though GTL is a major trucking operation, it has retained its head office in Alexandria, my metropolis, since 1948.

I do not want to see Ontario lose more employers like GTL. In fact, I want to see more employers like Glengarry Transport come here to Ontario. Unfortunately, with this government no one is coming to Ontario.

POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION

Mr Bisson: It is with great pride that I have the chance to stand in the House today and to introduce a couple of people to all members present. We have present in the gallery today two fine individuals, one of them being Charles Belanger, who is the president of Laurentian University, as well as Robert Gervais, who is the president of Northern College.

They have been working for a while, I would say, in putting together first-year university programs for the people living in the community of Timmins. As some members might know, university programs are presently not offered in our home community of Timmins, one of the largest communities in northern Ontario not having university programs. Because of the work done by these individuals and other people within our communities, we are now able to go into the position of hopefully being able to offer, starting in this upcoming year, first-year university programs for the people inside the community.

I think the thing we also need to underline with this is that it goes to show what could happen when we get together and decide to work together and do not sit there calling each other names. What we do is get together in partnerships with people from government, from industry, from different sectors, to see what we can do when we put our minds together. What we see today is exactly what can happen when we decide to cooperate and not play games.

NATIONAL CONFERENCE OF CHINESE CANADIANS

Mr Ruprecht: I would like to introduce to members of the House the co-ordinating committee and members thereof of the National Conference of Chinese Canadians, which will take place in Toronto this weekend: Ping Tan, Victor Lee and Kai Tao.

This weekend will see the largest number of Chinese Canadians coming to Toronto from coast to coast to discuss a number of very important items to Chinese Canadians. Chinese Canadians, who wish to be proud Canadians, want to discuss a number of issues, such as the head tax, where Chinese had to pay $500 per head when they came to Canada. And what about the Chinese Immigration Act from 1923 to 1947?

At this conference we are also going to be discussing the present situation. What about immigration to this country? How about the Constitution that we are talking about as Canadians? What about multicultural issues? These are the issues from the past and the present that Chinese Canadians are going to be discussing. We in this House would like to congratulate them for coming to Toronto, choosing this place and coming to grips with their past and with their present.

VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN

Mrs Witmer: Recent statistics show that violence against women is increasing, despite heightened public awareness. By 24 April of this year, there were 56 reported cases of sexual assault in Metro, compared with 40 cases last year. Victims of sexual assault are waiting up to six weeks in Metropolitan Toronto to receive counselling. Sexual assault centres are beginning to lose their credibility because they are not in a position to offer immediate counselling services to the victims.

It has been reported that it takes the Barbra Schlifer Commemorative Clinic, a clinic that offers counselling and legal advice to victims, up to 10 days to return a phone call. This is the case in spite of the fact that the majority of women still do not even report sexual assault because they do not think they will be believed.

It is appalling that there is no province-wide program that both informs and supports victims of sexual assault and that there is nothing in the present law that ensures that victims of sexual abuse or violence are entitled to support services.

It is time the government enacted victims' rights legislation that would ensure that all victims are entitled to support programs and that all victims are notified if an assailant escapes or has applied for parole or day passes. Surely it is time this government recognized that women need these services now.

PLANT CLOSURE

Mr Wood: On 9 May, a day-long conference in Timmins was held by the Mushkegowuk first nations of James Bay and Hudson Bay. This event brought together over 100 native and non-native leaders to talk about building bridges between our communities.

At a news conference that day, the Mushkegowuk council clarified its position on the proposed sale of the Spruce Falls powerhouse at Smoky Falls, 75 kilometres downriver from Kapuskasing, as well as Kimberly Clark/New York Times's ultimatum to close three of the four paper machines at Spruce Falls, which would result in the discharge of 1,000 workers on 18 November of this year.

I am well aware of the letters and phone calls most of the 130 members in this House have received from the workers and business community in Kapuskasing concerned with finding new owners for the mill.

It is important to know that most of my friends and former co-workers at Spruce Falls, where I worked for more than 28 years, were expecting news of automation and modernization with layoffs of up to 500 people for the last 10 or 15 years. They never expected this to be part of the routine collective bargaining, which has been stalled since last year at this time.

A working committee led by the Deputy Minister of Northern Development is seriously looking for new investors and owners to take over the operation of Spruce Falls from Kimberly Clark-New York Times. With everyone working in solidarity, we can achieve our goals.

PARLIAMENTARY PROCESS

The Speaker: Members will know that since Monday last, 13 May, I have been considering a point of order raised by the honourable House leader for the government. In doing so, I am also considering the arguments presented in the House by other members and also some considerable written material that has been provided to me up until 6 o'clock last evening.

I would like to thank all of the honourable members for the assistance they have provided, and I must advise the House that because of the very serious nature of the point of order presented I will need a bit more time to consider my decision. Therefore, I shall give my decision on Monday 27 May.

LEGISLATIVE PAGES

The Speaker: I would also like to take this opportunity to draw members' attention to the fact that this is the last day our current group of pages will be serving us, and I am sure I speak on behalf of all members when I thank them very much for the dedicated service they have provided to all of us both in the House and throughout the assembly. I would invite all members to show their appreciation for our pages.

[Applause]

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

ONTARIO'S CREDIT RATING

Hon Mr Laughren: I would like to take this opportunity to inform the members of the Legislature about the current state of Ontario's credit rating.

During the past week, I, along with Treasury staff, have been meeting with representatives of four bond-rating agencies who review and post Ontario's rating. In these meetings, we detailed our government's decision to allow the deficit to rise this year in order to fight the worst recession since the Second World War. In addition, I outlined our medium-term fiscal plan, including our commitment to reduce the operating deficit.

However, one bond-rating agency, Moody's, today has informed me that it has decided to lower Ontario's credit rating from triple A to AA2.

I am concerned about the lowered rating because of the potential impact on Ontario's borrowing costs at a time when the province and its people are being hardest hit by the recession. Our commitment to effectively manage Ontario's fiscal position and reduce and contain the deficit is clear. This deficit reduction will be evident as we pursue our medium-term fiscal plan as outlined in the budget. I want to assure the House and the people of Ontario that this government has the political will to ensure that Ontario's finances will be managed prudently and vital services will be maintained.

I would like to emphasize that we believe our approach to the deficit is the most responsible choice we could make, given the economic and fiscal conditions facing our province. We also believe Ontario's economic base remains strong, and that once the economic recovery begins, we can significantly reduce the province's operating deficit.

Clearly, this rating change will have an impact on our borrowing costs. I would like to stress, however, that it is difficult to estimate exactly what the impact of this rating change will be. There are a number of factors which influence borrowing costs. The bond rating is only one of these. Other and, I might add, more important factors are US interest rates, the Bank of Canada interest rate policy and inflation.

Indeed, the most important factor is the general level of interest rates. In the past few months there have been frequent weekly declines in the Bank of Canada rate and overall the prime lending rate has declined four percentage points over the past year. Yet the Bank of Canada continues to hold Canadian interest rates more than three percentage points higher than US rates. This adds significantly to Ontario's cost of borrowing.

A rating change from triple A to AA2 is estimated to add about $2.5 million for every $1 billion borrowed in the public bond markets. As I have noted previously, the province has a diversified borrowing strategy and only a portion of the costs of our financial requirements will be affected by the ratings change.

International investors have for some time been aware of the severe impact of the recession on Ontario's economy. It is likely that there has already been a moderate increase in Ontario's borrowing costs to reflect its changed economic position. Despite this, Ontario still retains a high credit rating within the triple A standard.

I am proud that through this budget we are investing more than $4 billion of this deficit to renew the province's infrastructure, including our schools, roads and other public facilities. This investment will not only provide enduring assets for Ontario communities, but is also an important investment in our province's future. In addition, the money we spend today will create or maintain 70,000 jobs for the people of Ontario.

I also want to emphasize that, unlike the federal government, we are not prepared to abandon our commitments to vital services that Ontarians need now more than ever. This government decided to maintain health care, education and social assistance services.

While prudent fiscal management is one of the fundamental priorities of this government, it is not the only one. Unlike the federal government, we are determined to alleviate some of the distressing human costs of this recession. We believe that government has a responsibility to support employment and economic growth in times of recession. Government can and should be active in supporting the transition to a more productive, sustainable and equitable economy. We are confident that investors will continue to recognize the fundamental strength of Ontario and to view Ontario government bonds as high-quality, secure investments.

PROVINCIAL SCHOOLS

Hon Mrs Boyd: I wish to inform members of the steps I am taking to ensure the safety and welfare of students in Ontario's provincial schools in light of recent allegations of abuse.

I have established a review team comprised of experts from my ministry, the Ministry of Community and Social Services and the Ministry of the Attorney General. This review team, to be headed by a senior staff person seconded from the Ministry of Community and Social Services, will determine the adequacy of current policies and practices intended to promote the health, welfare and safety of students in provincial schools.

On 15 April 1991, the Ministry of Community and Social Services investigations unit commenced an investigation. Although no charges have been laid by the police to date, three staff members have been placed on leave, with pay, pending investigation. The city of London police, the Halton regional police, the Children's Aid Society of London-Middlesex and the Halton Children's Aid Society are involved in ongoing investigations.

In addition, as a precautionary measure, I directed my ministry to secure all relevant files from provincial schools and the demonstration schools. The files are currently being maintained at offsite locations for safekeeping and to assist investigators in their work. Appropriate access to student files has been arranged to ensure that their medical and educational plans are maintained, and we are taking steps to ensure that freedom of information concerns are respected.

Provincial schools are located in the following locations: Milton, the Ernest C. Drury School; London, the Robarts School; Belleville, Sir James Whitney School; Brantford, W. Ross Macdonald School; Ottawa, Centre Jules-Léger.

On Friday 10 May, I issued a news release which outlined the status of the investigations to date, and announced that Ministry of Education experts in family violence will provide co-ordination and support to parents, students and staff. It is my intention to ensure that parents continue to be kept informed of the government's measures, and I wish to reassure them that the safety and wellbeing of the students currently in our provincial schools is my ministry's highest priority. A letter will be sent to all parents of children currently enrolled at the schools.

This letter will outline the steps we have taken and encourage them to use the support system which we have in place to assist families to deal with sensitive and serious matters.

My ministry is equally concerned that those who may have been students at the provincial schools in the past, and their families, are assured of support, safety and respect, should they decide to come forward to provide assistance in this investigation. The review team itself will also be seeking input directly from both current and past students and their families.

At the same time, we must safeguard the rights of present and past employees of the schools. Despite the allegations which have been made, the dedication and professionalism of the majority of provincial school staff members are not in question. It is my expectation that actions by my ministry and those of other investigating agencies will ensure that the provincial schools provide quality care and education for deaf, blind and learning-disabled students in our province.

POLITICAL ACTIVITY BY CROWN EMPLOYEES

Hon Ms Lankin: I am pleased to inform the House that the government is today releasing a discussion paper on extending political activity rights for Ontario crown employees. In the speech from the throne, we stated our commitment to recognize the right of the employees of ministries, agencies, boards and commissions to take

part in political activities. The release of this paper represents a major step towards fulfilling that commitment.

Many of the existing limits on political activity and public comment by crown employees are much too restrictive. Indeed, some have been challenged in the court. The Ontario Law Reform Commission has also recommended that rules be relaxed to give most crown employees more freedom.

This government is taking action to meet those challenges and recommendations. At the same time, the government also recognized the need to strike an appropriate balance between permitting crown employees to exercise their individual democratic rights and protecting the public interest in an efficient, politically neutral public service.

Governments of all political parties, crown employees and the public all have an interest in the political neutrality of the public service. Governments need neutral, objective advice and the faithful execution of their policies. Crown employees must feel secure that their political activities or abstention from such activity will not affect hiring and advancement in the public service. Above all, the people of Ontario must be confident that their relationship with government is not affected by the political affiliation of the crown employees who provide public services.

This discussion paper addresses those concerns, sets out some key principles, identifies areas in need of reform and proposes some options for change. The discussion paper proposes a tiered system, with progressively more political activity rights for employees in each of three categories.

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