Manitoba Hansard — 23 July 2002 (Sitting 69, 37th Legislature, 3rd Session)

37-3-69

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LII No. 69- 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, July 23,2002

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HA WRANIK, Gerald HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEV AKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosano, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson K.ildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Lac du Bonnet Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Ross mere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

3669 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, July 23, 2002 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Universities Property Tax Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Glenn Dobson, Vema Mae Dobson, Charlotte Dobson and others praying that the Government of Manitoba consider ensuring that local property and education taxes do not rise as a result of the offloading of provincial responsibilities onto the City of Winnipeg, the City of Brandon, and Fort Garry, Assiniboine South, Winnipeg No. 1, St. Boniface and St. Vital school divisions.

TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Scott Smith (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review 2002-2003, Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today Mr. Gary Robichaud, the Leader of the Prince Edward Island New Democratic Party. This visitor is the guest of the honourable Member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD West Nile Virus Mosquito Fogging Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, less than two weeks ago on July 12 the Health Minister invoked legislation passed by the Doer government instructing the entire city of Winnipeg be fogged for mosquitoes. At the time the Health Minister said, and I quote: After discussions with the Premier and the mayor, we have determined the Province will be asking that the entire city of Winnipeg be fogged.

The Health Minister added, and I quote: It is our decision from the Province that an imminent health hazard is possible. Does the Premier still endorse his Minister of Health's (Mr. Chomiak) statement that an imminent health hazard is possible, considering that to date four birds have tested positive for the West Nile disease? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Yes, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Murray: Well, that is interesting, Mr.

Speaker, because for the past couple of nights the media have reported that W olseley residents opposed the Doer government's decision to fog the entire city, and they have been blocking fogging trucks from public roadways and alleys in the neighbourhood. The Premier is quoted in today's Winnipeg Free Press that he does not have evidence the protests are keeping the trucks at bay. That is what the Premier says. He has also said that they have no plans to use the courts to force W olseley protesters out of the way of the city's fogging trucks.

A number of other W olseley residents who support the fogging that the Health Minister has requested to deal with the imminent health hazard have threatened to make citizens' arrests. I would ask the Premier why his Minister of Health's imminent health threat does not apply to the residents ofWolseley. * (13 :35) Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, when we came into office, the legislative framework that was in

3670 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 23, 2002 existence allowed for a so-called individual-right application for a so-called buffer zone. When we brought the bill in last November and December, we dealt with the issue of one of the health risks we were concerned about, the potential of West Nile disease. The Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) has overridden the buffer zone that was in existence when we came into office. Before, prior to that, there was no spraying going on for mosquitoes in Wolsel ey.

Last night I understand over 60 percent of W olseley was sprayed; the night before they were to be sprayed or fogged but the winds were over 60 kilometres an hour. The bottom line is before the minister made his ruling there was no spraying going on; now there has been some progress. The conditions continue for us to deal with mosquito populations in this populated area. Mr. Murray: Well, Mr. Speaker, on July 12 the Health Minister acknowledged that there would be opposition to fogging but said he was doing what he felt was necessary to prevent a major disaster. He demanded it.

The minister said, and I quote: We have made the decision that the public protection is more important. It appears as though public protection is not what is important to the Government when it comes to the residents of Wolseley. If the Premier believes the fogging of mosquitoes is about public protection and a necessity because of the possibility of, according to the Minister of Health, an imminent health hazard, why does the Premier dismiss plans to use the courts to force protesters out of the way to protect those that are against fogging? Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, the law is written in such a way that the ministerial order is the law. The requirement for fogging is there. In fact, the law is written on the basis of public health to disallow an injunction for somebody who was opposed to fogging or other means of public health if members opposite will read the law and the act that was passed in this Legislature.

We believe the rights of the majority of this community to be protected in a potential health risk supersedes the individual rights of a few that are either protesting or having a position of using the buffer zone legislation that was in place when members opposite were m government. That is the decision of the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak). Mr. Speaker, the police yesterday made some individual decisions.

We do not direct the police from these legislative buildings how to implement certain requirements; but the condi tions for fogging that were issued by the Minister of Health, the decision we made was to override the buffer zone and we are still committed to the decision the Minister of Health made. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a new question. Mr. Murray: Over the weekend we have learned that two more dead birds have tested positive for the West Nile virus in the rural municipalities of Ritchot and St. Andrews.

The Health Minister has said that fogging is neces sary to prevent a disaster. When will fogging take place in the R.M.s of Ritchot and St. Andrews? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, the member ought to know that there is a variety of responses dealing with this particular issue. First was the issue of larviciding. For the first time, as I understand, there was larviciding both inside and outside the city of Winnipeg. Significant resources were invested this year to deal with larviciding around the city of Win mpeg. Secondly, Mr.

Speaker, for the past several years there has been a significant ongoing education campaign as it relates to the West Nile virus. It has kicked in in high gear as a result of the finding of a positive for West Nile virus in Corvus, so the plan is in operation. With respect to fogging specifically as it relates to the city of Winnipeg, in this large population area we felt it was in the interests of public safety that fogging, that an extended- * (1 3:40) Mr. Murray: Well, Mr.

Speaker, what we have is a Health Minister who has demanded, within two hours of finding a bird in Winnipeg, demanded that the entire city of Winnipeg be

July 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 367 1 fogged. Yet, when crows are found outside of Winnipeg in rural areas of Manitoba, it appears that there is nothing that is going to be done. My question is: Why does the minister not take the same approach to rural Manitoba as he demands in Winnipeg? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, there are a number of factual inaccuracies in the Leader of the Opposition's question. It reminds me of the Leader of the Opposition's shopping list before the session started when he ran around rural Manitoba saying: The NDP is going to close rural hospitals, and he was wrong then. Mr.

Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. When we put out information, it is correct information, not like a press release done by this minister which stated it was the municipality of Ritchot when it was actually the municipality of Tache. Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Health, on the same point of order? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, what I was attempting to do in my response was to clear up the misapprehension of the Leader of the Op· position and try to deal with a public health issue as opposed to turning it into a political issue which was what the Leader of the Opposition's only interest in this regard appears to be. Mr. Speaker: Order. Before making my ruling, I would like to remind all honourable members, a point of order should be used to draw the attention of the Speaker to a breach of a rule or a departure of procedure.

On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does have a point of order. Answers to questions should not provoke debate. * * * Mr. Speaker: I would ask the honourable minister to conclude his answer. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, on the day in question as I indicated, at five o'clock in the afternoon, which is about six or seven hours following the finding of a positive bird in Winnipeg, that I had talked with the mayor, that I had talked with the Premier (Mr. Doer), and they were invoking the order in order to override the buffer zone with respect to fogging.

I also indicated in a press conference that the Leader of the Opposition could have attended. We will make available the resources of the Province in all Manitoba to take whatever meas ures are necessary in order to protect public safety. Mr. Murray: Well, Mr. Speaker, the Government's policy in regard to fogging for · mosquitoes following the discovery of birds with West Nile virus seems to be lacking. The Minister of Health talks about inaccuracies. Well, let me try and put his quotation then on the record.

He said regarding the fogging of the city of Winnipeg that, quote, it is our decision from the Province that an imminent health hazard is possible, an accurate comment of what the minister said. The minister has also said, quote, we have made the decision that the public protection is more important, Mr. Speaker. It is the Governn 1ent's policy that public protection is important unless people block fogging trucks and unless you live in rural Manitoba. Why treat them like second-class citizens? * (13 :45) Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated, not only is larviciding available both in urban and rural Manitoba, and we have made it available, fogging is available in both rural Manitoba and urban Manitoba. If the member really wants to be accurate, he ought to look at the comments of the Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings) when we discussed debate on this biii when we brought it before the Legislature, because the Member for

3672 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 23, 2002 Ste. Rose talked about concerns with respect to spraying and other issues that had to be taken into consideration. So the Leader of the Opposition ought to check the comments of his own member of his own caucus in this regard. West Nile Virus Mosquito Fogging Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Mr. Speaker, when the Doer government introduced Bill 10 , they indicated it was very important to override the buffer zone in case, and I quote, of an imminent health emergency. Well, the Deputy Premier (Ms.

Friesen) supported Bill 10 when it was introduced, as did all members of this House, and my question today would be for the Deputy Premier. Why is she no longer supporting her Government's efforts to address this imminent health hazard? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I am proud of the fact that the Deputy Premier and Inter governmental Affairs Minister (Ms. Friesen), along with our Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) and Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin) have increased the drainage budget, as opposed to decreasing the drainage budget. I know they do not get it. Some Honou rable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Lakeside, on a point of order. Mr. Ha rry Enns (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, it is a point of order or indeed, probably a matter of privilege, for the First Minister to put delib erately wrong information- Mr. Speaker: Order. Is the honourable member rising on a point of order or a matter of privilege? On a point of order. The honourable Member for Lakeside, on a point of order. Mr. Enns: A lengthy examination of the Minister of Conservation's Estimates revealed no increase in drainage money in the province of Manitoba.

Furthermore, running his department with 9% staff vacancies that the whole Government is running, by orders of the ministry of the Treasury Board- Mr. Speaker: Order. Prior to making a ruling, I would like to once again remind all honourable members a point of order is a very serious matter. It should be raised to point out to the Speaker the breach of a rule or the departure of procedure of the House, not to be used for debate or rebuttal. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. The honourable First Minister, were you rising on the same point of order? Mr. Doer: You have ruled. Mr. Speaker: No?

On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Lakeside, it is not a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable First Minister, to conclude his answer. Mr. Doer: To continue. For the first time ever there has been mapping of those water storage areas, again, agreed to and led by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen).

For the first time ever in the history of Manitoba, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs and Deputy Premier had a larviciding program in the total Capital Region of Win nipeg, something nobody across the way has ever done. * (1 3:50) Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Emerson, on a point of order.

July 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3673 Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): On a point of order, I would suggest the Premier look at the records and he will find that the mapping of water storage areas in this province was started a number of years before- Mr. Speaker: Order. I am going to once again point out to all honourable members, a point of order is a very serious matter. There is lots of time for asking questions, for answering ques tions if you want the information.

Points of order are to be brought to the attention of the Speaker for the breach of a rule or a departure of the procedure of the House, not to be used for debate or rebut what a member has said. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please, because points of order are a very, very serious matter and I hope we will treat it as such. Mr. Doer: Finally, Mr. Speaker, when the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) invoked the

section of the act 10 days ago to override the buffer zones, it is a decision supported by the Government. That is why 11 days ago the buffer zones would have been respected. That is why last evening 60 percent of W olseley was fogged for mosquitoes pursuant to the Minister of Health's directive of 10 days ago. Mr. Speaker: For clarification on a point of order raised by the honourable Member for Emerson, it was not a point of order. It was a dispute over the facts. * * * Mrs. Mitchelson : Mr. Speaker, it is obvious that the Deputy Premier (Ms. Friesen) is passing the buck and trying to blame everyone else.

Since the City is acting under the direct authority of her Government and since the Deputy Premier is the minister responsible for larviciding and fogging in the province of Manitoba, will she now stand up for the residents in her constit uency who deserve the same treatment as the rest of the city of Winnipeg does? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. We have the viewing public, we have visitors in the gallery who have come here today to listen to questions and answers. I would ask the full co-operation of all honourable members, please. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, for several years our monitoring with respect to the West Nile virus indicated that it was likely the West Nile virus would appear in Manitoba. When West Nile virus appeared positively in the bird population, we invoked a

section of the act that indicates a health imminent, because of mosquitoes capable of transmitting diseases, and we overrode the buffer with respect to the fogging in the city of Win nipeg which was already ongoing. With respect to outside of the city of Winnipeg, Mr. Speaker, we have increased mos quito trapping and testing, sampling of standing water, and dead bird pickup is already taking place. Mosquito traps have been set up in St. Andrews and are to be set up in Ritchot.

The R.M. of Ritchot said fogging would not help in this area as I understand from the paper, and the reeve from the chief administrative office of St. · Andrews said, and I quote, they would not ask for fogging. That was from the Winnipeg Free Press. As a result of discussions that took place between our Government officials and officials at all levels of government, Mr. Speaker, we are trying to work co-operatively to deal with a health threat. * (1 3:55) Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. Mr. Speaker, it is not only the provoking debate, but I would like the minister to put on the record if it is Tache or if it is Ritchot, because it is important that the people of Ritchot or Tache know exactly which area was infected. There is a misunderstanding on which one. The minister's response was again Ritchot just now, but there are some people who are saying it is Tache where the bird was found.

3674 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 23, 2002 Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, on the same point of order. Mr. Chomiak: Yes, Mr. Speaker. By my count that is the fourth or fifth point of order raised during, what, three or four questions of Question Period. I think I leave it up to the viewing public to see who is abusing the rules of this Legislature. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does not have a point of order.

If any member seeks information they have a right to get up and ask a question but not to use points of order to raise questions. That is not the purpose of points of order. I would ask the co operation of all honourable-the honourable Official Opposition House Leader does not have a point of order. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, have you concluded? Okay. Mrs. Mitchelson: Will the Deputy Premier (Ms. Friesen) stand in her place, tell the Premier and the Minister. of Health (Mr.

Chomiak) that she does not need a buffer zone, that she can answer to the constituents of W olseley who deserve the same treatment and the same protection as the rest of Winnipeggers do? Will she stand up and ensure that the fogging takes place in her constituency of W olseley? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the members opposite are trying to play political games. The bottom line, last evening in W olseley fogging took place- Mr. Speaker: Order. I was rising on order, so the honourable First Minister's comments would not have been picked up by the mikes because they probably would have been off.

I was rising to remind all honourable members about decorum in the Chamber. It is very important to the viewing public and the guests we have in the galleries. Decorum is very, very important. I once again ask the full co-operation of all hon ourable members, please. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the order was issued by the Minister of Health. The fogging took place last evening and there was no buffer zone. Health Care Facilities Review-Availability Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, Winnipeg hospitals are undergoing the biggest operational review in the history of medicare, a $600,000 probe launched to find out why hospital costs are so much higher here than in other Canadian cities. Can the Minister of Health tell me why I was denied access to a copy of the interim Deloitte and Touche report when I applied for it through Freedom of Information? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, when I last checked the Member for Charleswood had FIPP A'd through Freedom of Information literally hundreds and hundreds of pages and was provided with those pages and is being provided with pages, as I understand it, on almost a regular basis, something that we were not permitted when we were in office since we took FIPP A and we extended it. We just did not keep it within government. We extended it to all regional health authorities, institutions, et cetera. The member has more information than anyone has ever had in the health care system since I have been around. Mrs.

Driedger: The minister certainly did not answer that question. * (1 4:00) Review-Rec ommendations Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I would like to ask him to confirm that the report recommends staff cuts and layoffs in order to decrease costs in Winnipeg hospitals. Can he just confirm that? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, the member must be thinking about a report that was tabled and was brought forward by members opposite. I believe it was put together by one Connie Curran.

It cost close to $4 million, I believe, and I think that is what re sulted in the layoff of a thousand nurses during the Conservative years.

July 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3675 Review-Manitoba Nurses' Union Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Char leswood): Can the Minister of Health confirm that the nurses' union was the only union not represented on the steering committee and if it was because the nurses' union refused to participate in this particular review? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, there are ongoing operational reviews, studies being done by regions all across the province of Manitoba in order to improve the quality of care across the province, but one thing we will not do, we will not hire a big high-priced consultant to come in from the U.S. like Connie Curran came in to tell us to close 1400 beds, to tell us to lay off a thousand nurses. We believe in rebuilding the health care system, not slashing and cutting as occurred during the dark days of the 1990s, according to the president of the Manitoba Medical Association. Review- Recommendations Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): On a new question. Mr. Speaker: On a new question. Mrs. Driedger: The Manitoba Nurses' Union vehemently opposed and actually boycotted the review of the Minister of Health's $600,000 review, and they refused to co-operate with Deloitte and Touche in any way, saying the review unfairly targeted nurses. Can the Minister of Health confirm that his $600,000 review recommends the layoff of eight full-time registered nurses in critical care at the Health Sciences Centre? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, first off, the member opposite was complaining about critical care nurses. In fact we are trying to increase the number of critical care nurses we are training in this jurisdiction. We are not cutting programs and we are not cutting nurses, as happened during the 1990s. We are not a cutting government. We are a building government. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister confirm that his $600,000 review recommends the layoff of 50 full-time obstetrical nurses? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, this is not the 1990s. We are not going to enter the dark ages of the 1990s with respect to the firing of a thousand nurses.

We are short nurses. We have vacancies all across the province and in the city of Winnipeg. We are trying to expand roles. We are trying to expand functions. That is why we have doubled the number of nurse trainings in this jurisdiction. Mrs. Driedger: Well, the Minister of Health is avoiding answering all the questions.

Can he confirm that his $600,000 report recommends the layoff of almost 200 full-time positions from the nursing departments of Winnipeg hospitals and, because most of the nurses in Manitoba are working part time, that 200 equivalent full-time positions could eventually lead to 400 layoffs or 600 layoffs of part-time nurses? Is that what his report recommends? Can he just confirm that? Mr. Chomiak: No, that does not. In fact, not only is the member factually wrong in terms of the ramifications but the member opposite stood up a week ago and said, why do you not hire more nurses. We are hiring more nurses.

We are expanding the role of nurses. We are expanding the number of nurses training. Perhaps that is why members opposite did not support us when we expanded our nurse training program. Now I see where that came from. In fact we formed with the nurses' union a joint council to try to work with the nurses' union to try to find more full-time nursing positions and try to make full time nursing positions more available for nurses across the system. We are trying to rebuild the system after the dark days of the 1990s.

According to the president of the Manitoba Medical Association, the 1990s were the dark ages of health care in Manitoba. Livestock Industry Tuberculosis Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, news reports today indicate that there have been three cases of tuberculosis in cattle in Manitoba over the last decade and that Manitoba has been declared a tuberculosis zone for cattle. I would ask the Minister of Agriculture and Food if she can give us full details to tell us what she is doing about this, and to provide details of

3676 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 23, 2002 what extra testing and costs will be required of producers. Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, the accreditation of Manitoba has been downgraded, and it has been downgraded because there was another case of TB found in Manitoba. The first case of TB was found in 1997 and at that time CFIA indicated that there was TB, but no action was really taken by the provincial government at that time.

Since we have taken office, we have put together a TB strategy where the Department of Conservation, Department of Agriculture, CFIA, Manitoba Cattle Producers and the Riding Mountain Park association are all working to gether, and money has been put in place to address the issue ofTB. We have had accreditation. We have had notification from the USDA that the whole province will be zoned. The Province and producers were working to have a smaller zone in the province, in the whole province.

What it means is we now have to negotiate with the USDA to try to have that changed, but it means that breeding stock leaving this province will have to be tested before it can leave the province. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, this is a very serious issue, one that I raised more than a year ago in this Legislature. It is disappointing that there was not more decisive action taken then. Clearly, the problem here is growing. I would ask the minister: One of the things that consumers are concerned about and the minister perhaps can clarify is what are the implications for people in Manitoba who like to eat beef? Ms.

Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, I do not believe that there are any implications for the people in Manitoba who eat beef. We have food standards. We have inspections. The member knows full well we have federal inspectors at all facilities, and he should not be using this as a scare tactic or fearmongering. This is a serious issue. It affects our cattle producers. But we have to work together at it to come to some conclusion so that we can continue to move beef cattle out of this province, because it is a very important product and a very important part of our economy.

For the member to say that he raised this issue and nothing has been done, I wish he would listen to what we have said. We have put together a strategy. There has been money put in place for barrier fences. There has been a committee put in place. There have been meet ings held. But the member is forgetting, as well, that TB is an accredited disease. It is a federal responsibility. It falls under the CFIA, and we work with the CFIA and have been working very closely with them and the producers, because this is an important issue.

I would ask the member not to try to use scare tactics or imply that the food in Manitoba is not safe, because that is not true. Mr. Gerrard: Manitobans deserve clarity and they deserve to know good information so they do not have to be anxious. I would ask the Minister of Agriculture: Why is it when there is such a serious issue, why was there no ministerial statement? Why is there nothing on her Web page on tuberculosis? Why has there been an absence of a media release today? What is the minister doing? Why is this Government just sitting on its feet instead of doing something? Ms. Wowchuk: Well, Mr.

Speaker, if the member would use all of that energy and direct it to a more useful purpose, maybe we would get something accomplished or some support from him. An Honourable Member: Hook him up to a power grid. * (14:10) Ms. Wowchuk: Yes, and get some energy there. Mr. Speaker, for the member to say that nothing has been done obviously tells me that he has not been listening to what has been going on. There has been a series of meetings with producers. There has been a series of meetings

July 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3677 discussing what kind of zone we might have in Manitoba so that all cattle are not affected, but the member seems to forget that this is federal issue. They are responsible for the control of reportable diseases. TB is a reportable disease, if the member does not know that yet. The CFIA has made a ruling on Manitoba's accreditation. The USDA has now said that they want all of Manitoba zoned rather than the smaller area, and we are continually working. I can tell the member that it was this Government that put money into a TB strategy.

Absolutely nothing was done by the previous ad ministration. Drinking Water Government In itiatives Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin-Roblin): My question is for the Minister of Health. In those dark dreary days of Tory rule throughout the nineties, nothing was done to protect Manitoba's drinking water. As a matter of fact, cuts to the departments of the environment, natural re sources and Agriculture actually worsened the situation and weakened protection for Mani tobans and their families. Can this minister indicate what action has been taken to protect our drinking water supply here in Manitoba? Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, one of the first things we did was reinstate the subsidy for well-water testers. I understand members opposite who were re sponsible for the cutting of that program were handing out well-water testing kits at their constituency offices, so I am glad that they have come around. In addition, Mr. Speaker, we put in place an Office of Drinking Water, and we have before this Legislature a bill that builds upon some of the best experiences and some of the experiences that were learned in Walkerton and North Battleford with respect to drinking water quality.

It is one of the more progressive pieces of legislation in all of North America. It protects water right across the system, not just the public water systems but the semi-public water systems as well as providing assistance to the private well water operators, which is considerable. It takes Manitoba's water system and over the next few years will move it into an era where Manitobans can again feel totally confident in their water systems as it proceeds. Dakota Tipi First Nation Gaming Commission Compliance Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for the Gaming Control Commission. On July 16, the minister responsible indicated that the Dakota Tipi Gaming Commission was in compliance with the gaming regulations of the Province of Manitoba. Since the minister has assured himself that they are indeed in compliance, I would like to ask him if he is prepared to table the 2002 financial statements for the gaming control commission in Dakota Tipi. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the adminis tration of The Gaming Control Act): Mr.

Speaker, indeed Dakota Tipi is in compliance, and I am pleased to report that since we have come into government we have made significant progress in dealing with the legacy of the previous government which was 13 gaming commissions that were not in compliance. I have indicated also and I indicate to the member again that indeed Dakota Tipi is in compliance and is currently in the process of providing this year's financial information which we anticipate by the end of the summer. So we have acted to bring Dakota Tipi into compliance by working with that community. We are proud of that. Financial Statements Mr.

Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, the financial statement was due on June 30 and it is now past that date, but since the minister cannot table the financial statement that was due on June 30 I would ask him if he would be prepared to table the financial statement ended March 31 , 2001. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Cont rol Act): The member opposite knows, by the way, and I think this is important to put on the record, that when they were in government, in terms of the gaming commission, none of this information

3678 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 23, 2002 was made available. In fact, there was no infor mation made available in terms of which bands were in compliance. I remember the Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) asked me that question and we have provided that information. I can indicate they are in compliance, and currently. In fact, they met with the gaming commission as recently as last week. They are providing that information. We are working with Dakota Tipi to make sure they live up to those requirements, something that did not happen when the members opposite were in government. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, on a new question. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Russell, on a new question. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, under

section 57(3) of the gaming commission act: "The Com mission shall be empowered to monitor the effectiveness of the functioning and regulatory activity of the licensing authorities and to com municate its observations and findings to the Minister." I would ask the minister whether he has had that kind of communication from the com mission with respect to the annual reports, the financial reports from the Dakota Tipi gaming commission. Mr. Ashton: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I meet reg ularly with the gaming commission and that is one of the ways in which we have been able to make progress, not only in regard to Dakota Tipi but other First Nations communities. I want to put on the record it may come from the fact that we believe in trying to work in partnership with First Nations communities, something that may come as a complete surprise to members opposite who left us with a legacy in which 13 communities were in non-compliance. We have made significant progress, including with Dakota Tipi and we will continue to work with First Nations to achieve that.

Auditor's Recommendations Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, on a new question. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Russell, on a new question. Mr. Derkach : Mr. Speaker, for the record I would like to table the Dakota Tipi First Nation Consolidated Financial Statements for the year ended March 31 , 2001. In that report, the accountant, the auditor, says, and I quote: Our examinations indicate serious deficiencies in internal controls over the accounting records.

As a consequence, we were unable to satisfy ourselves that all revenue and expenditures of the Bingo Palace had been recorded or existed, nor were we able to satisfy ourselves that the recorded transactions were proper. Mr. Speaker, has this minister acted in any way on the recommendations that came from the auditor as it relates to this report? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): Mr.

Speaker, once again I put on the record that in fact as recently as last week the Gaming Commission met with the gaming commission from the First Nations community and are dealing with those financial deficiencies on the auditing side. As I said before, we are working with First Nations communities, including this community, to make sure they do come in compliance, something I wish the members opposite had done when they were in government. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, on a new question. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Russell, on a new question. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, as a matter of fact the Dakota Tipi First Nation's gaming commission was given a month to be able to respond to the concerns of the auditor. That is over a year ago. Has the Dakota Tipi First Nation's gaming commission responded to the comments of the auditor, and has the minister received those? Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I mentioned and I will put it on the record again that as recently as a week ago the Manitoba Gaming Control Commission met with the First Nation, and in fact that information is being provided.

July 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3679 I want to indicate the way to resolve matters like this is the way this Government is treating it: Work in partnership with the First Nation, unlike the ostrich approach of the previous government which, quite frankly, left us with a legacy no one should be proud of in terms of compliance with gaming control regulations in this province. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Legion Houses Walkway Project Mr.

Peter Dyck (Pembina): On Saturday, July 20, of this year, an official opening ceremony was held to commemorate the completion of the Legion Houses Walkway Project in Morden. It was a great success. The project entailed the construction of an enclosed link between Legion House One and Two. This link will provide year-round access between the two facilities for residents as well as caregivers and others who come to the facilities.

This $90,000 project was funded by various levels of government and local organizations as well as individual donations. * (14:20) I would like to offer my congratulations to the board of directors of Morden Legion Housing for the Legion Houses Walkway Project. I am certain residents, staff and visitors alike will be grateful for the conveniences this initiative will provide to them. I would also like to say a word of thanks to the many hardworking volunteers who had a hand in making this project and official opening possible.

Finally, I would like to recognize the building committee chair, Barny Bjarnason, for the role he played in making this project a reality after it had been discussed for a number of years. Again, thank you to the board of directors for the work they have done on this project. Mr. Speaker: Before recognizing the honourable Member for Flin Flon-order. If members wish to carry on a conversation could they please do it in the loge or the hallway. It is very, very hard to hear the member who has the floor. Cranberry Portage Homecoming Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Mr.

Speaker, I am happy to report that the 75th anniversary celebrations for my home town of Cranberry Portage are in full swing. On September 19, 2000, a number of dedicated volunteers formed the Cranberry Portage 2003 Homecoming Committee. The official celebrations are scheduled for the August long weekend in 2003. Many former Cranberry Portage residents and visitors are expected for this historic event, which will in clude an official opening with invited digni taries, social and historical displays, a parade, a fish fry, a community social, community bar becue and many other celebrations.

A number of · the events will take place in a beautiful, natural setting, namely, the park on the shores of Lake Athapapuskow. The Cranberry Portage site has a long and colourful history. It is named after a profusion of low-bush cranberries that grow in the area. For thousands of years, Aboriginal people used the portage between Lake Athapapuskow and First Cranberry Lake. Later, explorers, adventurers and prospectors also used the portage. In the 1870s, the noted mapmaker and explorer, David Thompson, first referred to the site as the Cranberry Carrying Place.

In the early 1920s, a family of surveyors and miners, the Thompsons, built the first permanent dwelling along Lake Athapapuskow. This year, the last member of that family, Margaret Rose Thompson, died at the age of 104 at the same site along Lake Athapapuskow. Also, in the mid 1920s, Mr. Fred Semchenko established a stopping house along the portage. By 1928, prospectors swarmed into the area lured by rich mineral finds near Sherridon and Flin Flon. On March 25, 1928, the first steam engine pulled into Cranberry Portage.

At that time, Cranberry Portage was a distributing terminal located halfway between The Pas and Flin Flon. Tragedy struck on June 4, 1929, when a forest fire to the north swept into town and destroyed most of the buildings. The town was rebuilt

3680 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 23, 2002 overnight. It soon gained the reputation of being a robust, colourful and lively northern town. It is still colourful today. I am proud to represent friendly Cranberry Portage. I wish the Cranberry Portage 2003 Homecoming Committee much success. Crime Rate Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, here in the province of Manitoba and the city of Winnipeg, this Government has a dreadful legacy that it is leaving with Manitobans in the area of crime. Since this Government came into office, the Hells Angels have come to town. They have set up a storefront.

There have been shootings in broad daylight. There have been firebombings in the constituency of Fort Garry plus other places. There has been police intimidation. The police intimidation did involve a firebombing of a police officer's residence. Gang members have risen to approximately 4000 gang members. There have been promises, promises, promises made by this current Government. Mr. Speaker, 427 days ago, a cyber tip line was promised by this Government to protect children from cyber internet exploitation. Unfortunately, the cyber tip line is still not up.

I have to put on record that this current Attorney General wishes to be the first in Canada and, as a result, has extended the cyber tip line into the federal jurisdiction. So it covers all of Canada. It is regrettable that Manitobans cannot feel the benefit of feeling safe and children cannot feel the benefit ofbeing safe because this Attorney General does not attend to the needs of Manitoba children. Mr. Speaker, 18 police officers have been recently announced as coming on the streets. Unfortunately, this money to put the 18 police officers on the street comes from the photo radar initiative.

To date the money is not available. There is no time line, no understanding of when exactly those 18 police officers will be on the street. I have to say, Mr. Speaker, that this Government has a dismal record in the area of fighting crime here in the city of Winnipeg and in the province of Manitoba. Ochre River Days Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin- Roblin): I would like to put a few words on record about a little community with a great big spirit in our part of the world. The town I speak of is Ochre River. Ochre River is a village within the R.M. of Ochre River.

Every summer they host Ochre River Days, which I was pleased to attend with Michelle and our son on the weekend. We had a great time. There are so many good festivals in rural Manitoba, in every part of rural Manitoba, from the largest of our rural communities to little communities like Ochre River. One of the highlights of the weekend is a parade. I think Ochre River prides itself in probably having more people in their parade than they do actually watching the parade. It is a huge parade. Everybody gets involved. People from all around the district come in to view this parade and to take

part in a good community event. All day Sunday there was a ball tournament, slow-pitch tournament, organized with a number of teams participating, live entertainment on Saturday night at the dance under the big top in Ochre River, and, of course, a real connection with our history and a real connection with pioneer days. There was a horseshoe tournament that took place on Sunday as well. This was an opportunity for the citizens of Ochre River and visitors from outside of town to come and view the new Ochre River Park that the council has been working hard on, and the volunteers in that community.

We know in these little communities the importance of volunteers to make these kinds of events work. So I want to recognize on behalf of all of us here in the Legislature the organizing committee and all their volunteers who worked so hard to make Ochre River Days a success again this year in the summer of 2002. Randy and Deanna Wondrasek Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): It is with great pride that I rise today to recognize the recipients of Manitoba's Outstanding Young Farmer Award, Randy and Deanna Wondrasek. This young couple runs a grain and cow-calf operation just west of Russell.

July 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3681 Canada's Outstanding Young Farmers Program recognizes excellence and achieve ments of Canadian farmers. Regional nominees for this award must be between the ages of 19 and 39 years old and must also derive at least two-thirds of their income from farming. At the national awards seminar the seven lucky regional winners will be recognized for their achievements and judged based on their farming progress, their maximum use of natural resources, crop and livestock production and contributions to their community, province and proud nation of Canada.

Randy W ondrasek, despite the fact that he has a university degree in agriculture, feels the most valuable lessons he has ever learned were taught to him right on the farm. Since having taken over the family farm in 1987, Randy has learned about seeding, chemical use and basic machinery maintenance simply from experience. Deanna, who also grew up on a farm, had as a child seen the stresses that often accompany farn1ing, and she promised never to marry a farmer. Now, however, she knows that she would not have it any other way.

She explains that by living out on the farm the kids have the chance to raise their own animals and a chance to learn the responsibilities that come with that. From here Deanna and Randy will travel to Toronto to represent Manitoba at the national level. In response to their fantastic achievements Mr. W ondrasek commented that farming is very rewarding in that you take a lot of pride when something works out. While the W ondraseks are excited about representing Manitoba at the competition, they still feel that their continuing involvement with the alumni of the Outstanding Young Farmer Program is a real reward.

Perhaps Mr. Wondrasek best exemplifies the true spirit of the Manitoba farmer when he said we enjoy working the land and doing things together. It is probably the most rewarding lifestyle that I think anyone could every choose. It is clear that these Manitoba farmers should not only be recognized for their successes and their accomplishments, but also for their strong sense of family and community. It is for this reason, Mr. Speaker, that I, on behalf of all members of this Legislature, congratulate the recipients of the Young Manitoba award winners for Manitoba, Randy and Deanna W ondrasek.

ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger), that the House resolve into Committee of Supply. Motion agreed to. * (14:30) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) STATUS OF WOMEN Mr. Chair person (Harry Schellenberg): Good afternoon. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be continuing the consideration of the Estimates of the Status of Women. When this committee last met, there had been agreement to have a global discussion. The floor is now open for questions. Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): Mr. Chair, if I might just take a moment and introduce Gerri Thorsteinson who is with us today. She was here yesterday but not at the table, and she is a policy analyst with the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council. Mr. Cha irperson: Thank you for that introduction. Mrs.

Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): I would like to thank the minister for that introduction and welcome to the table. I think yesterday we were in the process of discussing the whole issue of a safe house for child prostitutes. I was attempting to find out from the minister where this issue is at. I do know, and I think contrary to some of the discussion yesterday, I believe that back in 1999 there were certainly meetings with the working

3682 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 23, 2002 group up until, the last record I have would be minutes from June of 1999 where members of the community and those within several government departments were involved in discussion and still working towards an end goal of some sort of support program for child prostitutes. So it was an ongoing process then, and it is now over three years later. I was commenting yesterday that I was a little disappointed that the minister did not have some sense of what her own position might be on her thoughts on a safe house for child prostitutes.

So maybe I will just start by asking the minister again if today she might indicate for me, and I know when there are papers that are before a Cabinet committee or Cabinet that the end result cannot be discussed, but I would like to ask her personally what her thoughts and her views are. I know she indicated yesterday that she had an opportunity to meet with women from the community who certainly are propo nents of a safe house, and so what are her thoughts on the presentations that have been made to her from the community around this issue? Ms.

McGifford: I did indicate yesterday to the member that this Government takes extremely seriously the whole issue of sexually exploited children, and this Government has certainly been working on this issue. I indicated to the member that recommendations will be brought forth, and I would like to ask the member to be patient. Those recommendations will be brought forth. Now the member made reference to presentations made to me by members of the women's community. What I had said yesterday during the Estimates was that I have had meetings with many groups from the com munity.

I think I mentioned the Provincial Coun cil of Women, I remember the anti-poverty group who marched in-was it September 2000? I have met with E. Fry, several other women's groups, service providers of various kinds. Most of those groups have made reference to sexually exploited children, but not in my memory have I had a group come forth to present specifically and only on sexually exploited children. So it has been part of a larger presentation where that issue has come up. We have heard it in this Government. I have told the member that recommendations will be brought forward.

Now the member makes reference to my personal views. At this table my personal views are not really relevant. My personal views are aired at the Cabinet table among my colleagues, and I do not know what the practice was amongst the previous government, but our practice is to arrive at consensus, and we have a position because we work together as a caucus. So the views of government will be reflected once the decisions are made, and I ask the member to keep patient. She will be informed as soon as there is something to share with her. * (1 4:40) Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, but again I think as the minister within the Government that is responsible to advocate on behalf of women, from time to time that minister, and I know because I was in that position, has to take a stand on behalf of women. There certainly has been, although the minister may not have received any special presentation from women. It might have only been part of representation that has been made to her in her meetings with women throughout Winnipeg or throughout the prov ince. There certainly has been a Jot of attention paid to this issue in the news media, much of it approximately a year ago.

I would presume that the minister would have read those newspaper articles, would have heard the strong statements from women, and women that are feeling that this Government is not paying the attention to this issue that this issue deserves. So I will go back to some of the articles that were in the paper last year, and many of them refer to a safe house that would serve as a transition from the streets. I am just quoting from one last November, for instance, an

article by Lindor Reynolds who, by the way, was the person that made the presentation at the Lunch and Learn session that I attended around this issue, who has done an awful lot of work in the community, has seen first-hand the issues that young girls on the streets face and is very much a strong advocate for a safe house for those young women that are involved in the sex trade. That

article back in November indicated that Winnipeg could have a 1 0-bed safe house for child and youth prostitutes within a year if the Province accepts a series of recommendations

July 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3683 from an internal committee developing into the sexual exploitation of children. So, back last November, the community believed that the Government would be recetvmg recom mendations and would be dealing with them. Now I know that, usually in a budgetary cycle, departments are looking to go to Treasury Board with recommendations through that budget process and what initiatives might be supported in the following year's budget.

I do know from speaking to women in the com munity before this year's Budget was announced on April 22 that they were very hopeful that there might be something concrete announced with this year's Budget and, I believe, were quite disappointed that that did not occur. So I guess my question would have been: Was there any discussion at the departmental level with the Women's Directorate or the Advisory Council and were there any recom mendations that came forward that would have strongly supported inclusion of some money for a safe house in this year's budget? Ms. McGifford: Mr.

Chair, a few minutes ago the member made reference to the Minister for the Status of Women taking a stand and seemed to be suggesting that I do not take stands at Cabinet or on committee. I do not know where she would get this information or how she would come to this conclusion. In fact, I rather pride myself on taking a stand when it comes to the lives and rights of women. Indeed, I do take a stand. I do advocate on behalf of women. I always do, so I think the member can rest assured.

The member made reference to Lindor Reynolds, who is a columnist with the Winnipeg Free Press, and pointed out that Lindor Reynolds had spoken at the council's Lunch and Learn session on January 10, 2002, and I believe that was attended by other community members. Certainly, I am advised that some of the points of Lindor's presentation included the need for more public education on the dynamics and scope of the commercial sexual exploitation of children. She talked about the need to protect children from this type of exploitation.

Apparently, she talked about the importance of eradicating child poverty, that this was a priority, something on which members opposite had a dismal record, I might add. She also pointed out that children of both genders are being exploited by the sex trade, that these individuals are children. We need to remember when they are children, and it is important that we remember this. She pointed out that gangs and johns prey on kids as young as children in elementary school.

She pointed out that children must be made aware at a very early age of the dangers of sexual exploitation and that children need to be tutored in ways to protect themselves from this kind of exploi tation. This can be done in a variety of ways. * (14:50) She talked about the need to monitor the increasing risks posed to children via predators using electronic or communications mediums .. She talked about it being unacceptable for our society to ignore the commercial exploitation of children via the Internet or through prostitution.

She pointed out that children must be protected and deserve an excellent quality of life. I could go on, but I basically provided a follow-up of her report. As the member knows herself, it was an excellent presentation. We again congratulate Lindor Reynolds on her presentation. I do tell the member again that there are recom mendations that will soon be heard. She will know as soon as we come to any conclusions when and if those recommendations are made public and become part of public policy. Mrs. Mitchelson: We are three years into this Government's mandate.

This is an issue that had been on the table for a considerable period of time before the 1999 election. We, to date, have not seen any action or response, especially at a time when we see increased gang activity. The Hells Angels have moved into our province and are very much alive and well. We do know that the sex trade on the streets is very much related to gang activity. I think there has been significant research.

I wonder if the minister, on behalf of women that are being sexually exploited, has asked her staff to do any work or any research or any analysis on whether the increased gang activity over the last couple of years in our city has had an impact on it and there is any correlation to increased prostitution on our streets as a result.

3684 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 23, 2002 Ms. McGifford: I guess this is one of those conversions on the road to Damascus because the former government was in power for 11 years, starting in 1988. So, if the member was as passionate and keen as she portrays herself as being, there was certainly a great opportunity for her to do the work that she now expects to have been done in a shorter period of time. I am not sure that is quite fair. She asked if the Women's Directorate is doing work on issues related to the subject under discussion.

I think that she knows that the Status of Women is represented on the Healthy Child Committee. Yes, indeed, the Status of Women is doing work and research along with other indi viduals who are part of a committee who are making recommendations. As well, the Women's Directorate is doing research on services for girls in gangs. That is something that we are currently involved in. Mrs. Mitchelson: I wonder if the minister could indicate to me specifically what the Women's Directorate has learned and whether there are any recommendations before government right now. Ms. McGifford: Yes, Mr. Chair.

Recom mendations have not been made because the research is incomplete as yet. The research is ongoing. However, at this stage, we do think that what we are seeing is that there are many more services available for male children who are involved in gangs than there are for female children involved in gangs. We think that perhaps when our research is completed, it may show that we do need some services for females or girls who are involved in gangs. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Well, I know there are certainly issues around support services for those that are involved in gangs and hopefully some initiatives that might come forward that would look at more healthy or positive alternatives. It is something I think that we would all struggle with. It is not anything that I would lay any blame on anyone about. The issue that I am talking about right now is child prostitutes and those that are being used by gang members and exploited by gang members. We do know that the Hells Angels over the last couple of years have moved into Manitoba.

They have a significant presence in Winnipeg. We know that sexual exploitation of young girls is one of the activities that takes place in a significant way. I know that the minister said I have had a major conversion on the road to Damascus, that we were in government for many years and did not deal with this issue. I do want to indicate that when it was brought to our attention, we worked on it for two years and were very close three years ago to finding some support and putting some support in place.

We are three years later with a significant increase in gang activity over the last two to three years in our province. We have not seen action from this minister on this issue, or this Government. Now, she indicates that we should be patient, that there is something just around the corner. I understand I think from her comments or answers yesterday that she said the Cabinet committee quite probably has a meeting coming up in September. When was the last time the Cabinet committee met? Ms. McG ifford: You know, the member said that after 11 years in government they were awfully close to a solution.

Well, after three years in government we are awfully close to a solution, and again I bring the member's attention to that. The member talked about organized gangs and sexually exploited children and the possible link between the two. I want to assure her that this work is being done in concert with other members of the Healthy Child Committee of Cabinet. Recommendations are to come forth very soon. As to when did we have our last meeting, I cannot remember the specific date, but it was in early July. I believe it was a Monday or Tuesday in early July.

Yesterday was the 22nd, so it may have been the 8th or 9th of July. The specific date I do not have with me, but it was during that time in July. * (1 5:00) Mrs. Mitchelson : Mr. Chairperson, could I maybe ask what the process is? I think I heard

July 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3685 the minister say that the proposals that are coming forward that the interdepartmental committee has done their work and there are recommendations there for the Cabinet committee to consider. Could I ask the minister whether in fact those issues will be dealt with at the next Cabinet committee meeting? Ms. McGifford: Mr.

Chairperson, I am told that the recommendations, and I think I mentioned this yesterday, had been discussed at the deputy minister level, that the deputy ministers had made some revisions and that there is a committee now working on the ways in which these recommendations could be implemented. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, my sense would be, from any process that takes place in government, that implementation does not happen until there is Cabinet or Cabinet committee approval. So I would question what an implementation committee of deputies is doing unless something has been approved.

Usually the process would be that recommendations would come forward, Cabinet would improve in principle, then implementation would take place. So I would ask for some clarification from the minister on that. Ms. McGifford: It is looking at possible ways of implementation. It is looking at strategies to make sure that services are not overlapping, the identification of resources, et cetera. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I wonder if the minister could indicate to me how long it has been at the deputy minister's level and when she might expect that that would come forward to ministers. Ms. McGifford: Mr.

Chair, I am told that it was at the deputy minister's level on June 20. It was discussed at the June 20 meeting. I think I mentioned to the minister yesterday that the Healthy Child Committee is meeting again in early September; however, since I do not control the agenda, I cannot tell you whether that material will come forth on that date or not. I think I could suggest this might be something she wants to bring up during the Estimates of the Minister of Family Services, who is the chair of the Healthy Child Committee. It would seem to me that that may be the venue for discussion. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, but again, the minister always likes to try to push the responsibility onto some other minister and say that questions should be asked of other ministers. I think that this is a significant issue that is important to women and to children in our province of Manitoba. She is the minister responsible for advocating publicly on behalf of women, but the minister that has been chosen to be responsible to advocate for women within her Cabinet and within her caucus. This issue is one that has been sitting for a while.

This issue is one, in January at the Lunch and Learn, that women said it was time that we put pressure on the provincial government because they are dragging their feet. · That was back in January of 2002, and we are now in July of 2002. So women in the community were asking, and the event, the Lunch and Learn, was sponsored by the minister's own Advisory Council. Obviously, members of the Advisory Council heard that message loud and clear back in January. I would presume that the Advisory Council that reports to the minister, that is her eyes and ears, got that message.

I would ask the minister whether that message was relayed to her in January. Ms. McGifford: The Advisory Council chair meets with me regularly and often discusses, in fact does discuss, lunch and learns. I appreciate the work of the Advisory Council and of the chair. As I told the member, I have also heard about this issue from women's groups in the community. In fact, as I have told the member repeatedly, there will be recommendations that will be before the Healthy Child Committee very soon. You know, this, as we all realize, is a very significant issue.

I think the same issues and concerns were raised with the prior government. The prior government apparently sat on its hands for 11 years. So I find it inordinate that this member expects a solution in 3 years. So I put that on the record and tell the member once again we are working on it.

3686 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 23, 2002 Mrs. Mitchelson: This is not an issue that the former government sat for 11 years on. There was work ongoing on this issue for 2 years. It was at a point in June of 1999 where there were recommendations around a safe house. Those recommendations would have been dealt with through the Estimates process that would have started in the fall of '99. The reality was that there was an election and a new government took over. That is the Government that this minister represents. She represents women and advocates for women.

So she can go back and she can try to make the argument that we sat on our hands for 11 years and did nothing around sexual exploitation of children, but the reality is and the community knows that work and a lot of work had been done for 2 years on this issue and there were recommendations that were before government at that time, unless the minister threw the baby out with the bath water and said all of the work that the community has done to date is irrelevant because we are a new government or whether she said, yes, there has been a lot of work done, the community has put a lot of time and effort and energy into this, the bureaucracy has put a lot of time and energy and effort into this, we do not need to reinvent the wheel, we can move forward from here. * (1 5: 10) Three years is a significant time.

I wonder how many young women have been exploited and how many new young women have been exploited in the last three years while this Government has taken no action. I trust her at her word, and I trust that this is going to be dealt with this fall by her Government and her Cabinet. I do not ever want to indicate that I do not believe the Advisory Council that represents or works on behalf of the minister or the Government is not taking its responsibility very seriously. I mean, they would not be holding the kinds of sessions on such a regular basis.

I think it is a great idea, the lunch and learn whole process and concept. I believe that the message was brought back to the minister, and the minister has indicated that she meets on a regular basis. So I guess my question to her would be: What has she done since the Advisory Council reported to her back in January or maybe February by the time they had an opportunity to meet that there was a concern in the community that the provincial government was dragging its feet? How did she advocate on behalf of the women when that information was brought to her attention? Ms.

McGifford: I would suggest to the member that probably not as many young women and children were exploited in the three years that the member mentioned as in the 11 years when her government was in power. Since she is counting numbers, I would suggest that to her. I think that we indicated that some of the work that has been going on in the department is the research into gang issues and providing services for young females who are in gangs and are often victimized by the gangs although they are in gangs. We have participated in the Healthy Child Committee.

We participated as a department in the research of the Healthy Child Committee. I repeat again that the Healthy Child Committee, a staff component, has prepared recommendations. I am advised that there was a meeting on the 20th of June. I am advised that there will be, pardon me, there was a meeting on the 20th of June of officials at the deputy minister's level. I have told the member repeatedly that recommendations are due to come forward and they will be discussed at the Healthy Child Committee. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, other than a safe house for young women that are being sexually exploited, are there any other initiatives that the minister could share with me that are underway or ongoing or under consideration? Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, of course, the sexual exploitation of children is a very complex issue and requires a multifaceted strategy. A safe house is just one part of a number of initiatives. Other things that are important are public education, services of various kinds.

Of course, since these recommendations have not been before Cabinet, they are confidential, and I am not really willing to go into a great deal of detail at this time.

July 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3687 Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I guess there may be recommendations that are before Cabinet at this point in time that the minister is not prepared to discuss. I guess I would ask her what initiatives- Point of Order Ms. McGifford: On a point of order, Mr. Chair- Mr. Chairperson: Excuse me, a point of order. Ms. McGifford: On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I wish to draw to your attention that, not only am I not prepared to discuss, but it would be a violation of Cabinet confidentiality to discuss.

So I think there is a distinction there that I would like to put on the record. Mrs. Mitchelson: On the same point of order- Mr. Cha irperson: On the same point of order, the Member for River East. Mrs. Mitchelson: I do not really want to get into this, but I have, from time to time, heard ministers answer questions, even in Question Period, that say that something specific is going to Cabinet, and it will be decided.

So it is the minister's prerogative to discuss or not to discuss, and I take her at her word that the issues that are going before Cabinet, she is not prepared to talk about and can use Cabinet confidentiality to her advantage when she so chooses, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair person: On the point of order, there is no point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. * * * Mrs. Mitchelson: Thanks very much, Mr. Chairperson.

Because I know that this is a very multifaceted and very complicated issue and that there are significant different strategies that need to be undertaken, I wonder if the minister could indicate to me, over the last three years, what specific initiatives have been undertaken and what programs are in place today, that are new over the last three years, to deal with the issue of sexual exploitation of children. Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I am a firm believer in promoting the lives and rights of women and children by a holistic approach.

I just want to point out that one of the things that this Government has done is to show that it values women in a whole variety of ways. For example, we have more women in Cabinet than most, well, certainly than any other cabinet of its size in the country. We have appointed women to very senior positions as far as chairing boards, et cetera. So my point is this is a way of showing that we respect women, that we trust women, that we want to give women credit for their skills, and I think our Government has done this in a whole host of ways.

As far as the initiatives that are specifically geared towards the sexually exploited children, I will take that question as notice, and we can provide the member with information. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chair, is there any one initiative that the minister could, off the top of her head, think of or indicate that her Government has undertaken in this area? I would think that any announcements that had been made, she, as the advocate for women around the Cabinet table, would be aware of some of those initiatives and would be able to, off the top of her head, provide some information to us. Ms. McGifford: Mr.

Chair, for example, I can point to a program at New Directions called TERF, Training Employment Resources for Females. I am informed that the department people are working very closely with Jane Runner, probably an individual with whom the member is familiar, on that particular initiative. So the member asked for one; I have given her one. I have also identified earlier the research that is being done by members of the Women's Directorate. I might also point to the work that is being done in the Advisory Council.

In fact, there was a Lunch and Learn held in the Advisory Council in January, apparently attended by the member opposite, that has led to this line of questioning. So I think the member is quite familiar with the fact that there is work being done by this Government on this particular issue. For an in depth answer, which would really involve monitoring all departments, and we are quite willing to do that, I will provide the member with official information by letter.

3688 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 23, 2002 Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, yes, I am aware of the TERF program, and I know that it has been around for many years through New Directions. Is there anything new that is happening through that program with Jane Runner that the minister might be able to share? Ms. McG ifford: Well, I am advised that Jane Runner is very involved in acting as an adviser as our new strategy is about to roll out. Again, confidentiality is an issue so the member will find out about it in due course. * (15:20) Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chair, does the minister know offhand whether there are any resources that were budgeted in this year's budget around initiatives to deal with the issue of sexual exploitation? Ms. McGifford: No, I do not know the answer to that question offhand, but again I would advise the member to bring that question to the attention of the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Mr. Sale), pardon me, and let me also add the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh). Mrs.

Mitchelson: Well, that leads me to a question around what role the Minister responsible for the Status of Women plays when it comes to working with her colleagues and examining. I mean is there sort of inter departmental co-operation? If there is an initiative that comes up, for instance, in the Department of Justice that deals with women is the Minister responsible for the Status of Women aware? Is she brought up to speed by the Minister of Justice on what might be coming forward, and is she asked to provide input on whether she supports a specific initiative? Ms.

McGifford: Perhaps I could ask for clarification. Is the member talking globally or is she talking specifically about issues related to the sexual exploitation of children? Mrs. Mitchelson : Mr. Chairperson, I am talking globally. I know that there is a budgetary process within government and a Treasury Board process.

I know that we had a process whereby we had Cabinet committees that sort of dealt globally with budgets, certain different committees of Cabinet that departments were involved in, and the Minister responsible for the Status of Women was involved in the budgetary discussions and new initiatives around issues that might come up in Justice or Education or Family Services, in those days, the Children and Youth Secretariat, now the Healthy Child Initiative.

What role would the mm1ster play in a global way in being a part of any initiative that might be being looked at by any government department that might impact or affect women? Ms. McG ifford: Well, Mr. Chair, I am pleased to inform the member that as the Minister for the Status of Women, I work in close concert with my colleagues. Over the years in opposition, I developed a very close working relationship with the current Minister of Justice and, as well, with the Health Minister (Mr. Chomiak), and more recently, since 19 99, with the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) and with the Finance Minister (Mr.

Selinger). Of course, I forgot to mention the Minister of Child and Family Services. I have mentioned that he chairs the Healthy Child Committee and that I have been a member of the Healthy Child Committee and have been pleased to work with the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Sale), not only on that committee but I have joined him in work related to domestic violence prevention and child care from time to time. I can point out that some of the work that we have been doing with the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Justice involves possible credit splitting of the Canada Pension Plan.

We are also members of the anti-stalking committee. In an attempt to make policy that is more user friendly my department is involved in gender analysis when it comes to education and pro posed education in northern Manitoba, particularly related to hydro-electric develop ment in the North. I think I mentioned yesterday, probably in my introductory remarks, that one of the things that I have done as Minister for the Status of Women is travel about the province. I have been in Winnipeg, Brandon, Thompson, Lac du Bonnet, Dauphin and hope to travel to The Pas in the fall in order to ineet with community

July 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3689 groups and talk about health issues. This is part and parcel of a health strategy for women. As a department we have been involved in breast screening, midwifery, smoking cessation. Those are examples of some of the things that we have been involved in. Mrs. Mitchelson: I was just getting to the internal, working process within the minister's Government and budgetary process and new initiative process. I know that through consultation throughout the province there is input into many different areas within government regarding women's issues.

I know that the Advisory Council brings information forward. I know that the Women's Directorate, in its work, brings information forward too. I am wanting to get to what process her Government follows when it comes to new initiatives. For instance, let us take the Healthy Child Initiative. The minister is a member of that Cabinet committee. When the budget for the Healthy Child Initiative is developed it crosses government departments. There is very often a Health component, an Education component, a Family Services component. I know the Minister of Family Services is in charge of that com mittee.

It falls under his budgetary authority, but it is interdepartmental, because very often government departments share in the cost and they share in the development of programs and new initiatives. The Minister of Justice is, I believe, involved. If I could just get clarification from the minister, the Department of Justice is involved in the Healthy Child Initiative, or no? Ms. McGifford: Yes, the member is right. The Minister of Justice is a member of the Healthy Child Committee, and the Department of Justice participates in the Healthy Child Committee.

I believe the deputy minister attends meetings with the Minister of Justice and is part of the deputy minister's committee. Mrs. Mitchelson: I was pretty certain that that was the case. We have initiatives that would be coming forward. I would presume that it is not only the Department of Family Services that takes the lead on certain initiatives around Healthy Child, that the Department of Health might take the lead from time to time, the Department of Justice would take the lead from time to time, Education may take the lead from time to time around initiatives.

That is sort of the vehicle within government that develops programming intersectorally to support children. There would be an analysis, I presume, of that budgetary authority involving all of the departments that sit on that committee and all of the ministers that sit on that committee. They would all have input, and probably significant input, from their perspectives on any new initiatives or any ongoing initiatives or evaluations.

I would ask the minister whether or not there is a process whereby when the budget is being developed for the Healthy Child Initiative that all members of that Cabinet committee are involved in setting that budget and approving the new initiatives. * (1 5: 30) Ms. McGifford: Just to review for the member, the departments that are involved in the Healthy Child Committee are Health, Family Services and Housing, Justice, Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, Education, Training and Youth, Culture, Heritage and Tourism, and the Status of Women.

In relation to the member's specific question, the Healthy Child Committee has its own budget, of course. It has a line in the budget. The Healthy Child is, like all departments, subject to the Estimates process. The Healthy Child takes forth its Estimates to' Treasury Board. They are debated there, and in fact often debated at the Cabinet level, as with all departments.

As far as building the actual budget of Healthy Child, staff make proposals, they are discussed by all ministers, and ministers make decisions with regard to prioritization, et cetera, and then the budget goes forth from that point on, to Treasury Board. Mrs. Mitchelson: I ask could we have a five- to ten-minute break. Mr. Chairperson : Is there leave for a short recess? An Honourable Member: Yes. I believe 10 minutes would be a good time.

3690 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 23, 2002 Mr. Chairperson: Agreed and so ordered. Ten minutes. The committee recessed at 15 :32 The committee resumed at 15 :45 Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, so the minister has indicated to me, then, what the process is for decision making for the Healthy Child Initiative. So that would lead me to believe then that she was involved in discussions around budgets that would reset new initiatives, that would be a part of this year's budget announcements.

So I would ask her then to indicate to me, I know that she did indicate I think just a few minutes ago that she was not sure, or maybe I should ask the Minister of Family Services what was in the Healthy Child budget. But if she was part of those discussions, part of the Treasury Board process presenting the budget for the Healthy Child Initiative, could she indicate what new initiatives were approved through the budget process? Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I certainly sat in and was part and parcel of the budget discussions on Healthy Child Manitoba.

If I said that the member should ask the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Mr. Sale), I certainly misspoke myself because I was present. I do want to bring the member's attention to the fact, once again, that Healthy Child Manitoba is in the Department of the Minister of Family Services and Housing and that he chairs the Healthy Child Cabinet committee. Some of the things that were part and parcel of the budget discussions this year and some of the things I certainly supported were the parent child centred approach. The parent-child centre concept has been expanded.

We refer to it as the parent-child centred approach. It is an approach that reinforces the emphasis on the importance of community and the importance of community developing a local broadly based coalition to determine the best approach to developing and implementing parent-child activities in regions. The regions are based on the regional health authority boundaries, that is outside of Win nipeg, and on community areas within Manitoba.

Parent-child coalitions have been established in 11 regions outside Winnipeg and 12 com munity areas in Winnipeg. ln addition, there are three cultural organizations who have received parent-child funding: La federation provinciale des comites de parents, Manitoba Association of Friendship Centres and Indian and Metis Friendship Centre. All regions except downtown and Point Douglas have received either developmental or implementation funding. Membership on these two coalitions has been confirmed and they are expected to access development funds in the very near future.

So I do bring the member's attention to the parent-child centred approach. It is certainly an approach that my department was very keen on. We certainly supported the Health Baby program and I joined the minister, oh, some time ago to make an announcement on Health Baby. Healthy Schools, formerly Nurses in Schools.

The Healthy Schools initiative will provide a strengthened public health nursing, health educator and primary health capacity in elementary, middle and/or senior schools, with the priority on those schools located in communities with higher than average factors of risk to good health. * (1 5:50) Some of the other important initiatives were the Healthy Adolescent Development which works with the communities to build capacities to support healthy adolescent development with a harm reduction and population health framework. Certainly FAS/FAE strategy.

Healthy Child Manitoba works with community partners to address F AS through. There are five strategies here: public health and awareness; prevention and intervention programs; support staff to care givers and families; resource development and distribution; and diagnosis and treatment services. Some examples include support of the following: first of all, STOP F AS; Fetal Alcohol

July 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3691 Family Association; and FAS Information Manitoba. Of course it has a toll-free line. Mr. Chair, Healthy Child Manitoba also includes a home visiting initiative, Baby First, Early Start. I know the member is familiar with these programs. We think they are very ef fective. More recently my department has been interested in working on strategies to consider the high costs of food in the north. In fact, that is being worked on in connection with the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Ms.

Wowchuk) who is very interested in that, as well as the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr. Robinson). I would also like to bring to the member's attention that the Advisory Council published the sixth edition of Parenting on Your Own in partnership with Healthy Child Manitoba and also in partnership with the Women's Director ate. For the first time, Parenting on Your Own is on-line, so it is accessible to folks who probably could not have accessed it earlier. I think putting it on-line has another advantage, that is, it is easier to do revisions, so it is more affordable.

Those are some of the things that we worked with when the committee was discussing the budget. There were also several community initiatives-they are not all with me-individual, smaller projects where we had to make decisions on funding or not to fund. Mrs. Mitchelson: I am pleased to see that Parenting on Your Own is continuing. It was first published when I was the Minister responsible for the Status of Women many moons ago. If we are into the sixth or seventh printing and publication, I think it is great. It has obviously been a very valuable tool.

I am pleased to see it move into the new age and be up on the Internet on a Web site that does make it more easily accessible. I noticed though that in that list of initiatives and new initiatives there was not any mention of funding for issues surrounding sexually exploited children. This discussion and the Estimates process is all around budget and budgetary decisions, so I would ask the minister whether there was discussion around this and whether there was anything brought forward for consideration for budgetary support in this year's Estimates process. Ms.

McGifford: We could not cost this program before the recommendations came forward. I just give that information to the member. Mrs. Mitchelson: Would there be some discretionary money in the Estimates of the Healthy Child Initiative that would be available once the recommendations come forward, or is the minister indicating that any resources for this initiative might have to wait until next year's budget? Ms. McGifford: As far as discretionary funds are concerned, I ask her to ask that question of the minister responsible. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Again, the mmtster has already indicated to me that she was part of the discussions around the budget for the Healthy Child Initiative. Now she is indicating I should ask the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Sale). I · would expect that, if she was part of the process and part of the approval process for initiatives that would come out of the Healthy Child Initiative, there would have been some discussion around some contingency should there be needs that arise partway through the year. I know this issue has been on the Government's plate for at least the last three years.

I know it was on our agenda for a couple of years before that. * (16:00) When forecasting what might need to happen during a fiscal year, there is some discussion around ongoing work that is being done and commitments that might need to be made. So I just ask the minister whether there was any consideration or discussion during the budgetary process around setting aside.

You know, the minister may say there is some confidentiality around Cabinet discussions on this whole initiative because government or Cabinet has not dealt with it yet, but it certainly is an issue that has been out there in the public that I know the minister is aware of, the Government has been aware of. So from time to time, although work is still ongoing, there is sort of a notional commitment from government to set aside some money to deal with recommendations from committees that are

3692 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 23, 2002 actively working towards developing new initiatives. So I guess I would just ask her whether there was that kind of discussion through this budgetary process. I am not asking her for an amount or any detail. If that announcement is in the offing or will be made, it seems to me we can expect an announcement to be made around some initiatives this fall just from what the minister has said, that it is at the deputy's level, so it will be coming to the Cabinet committee and that there should probably be a resolution soon to this issue.

So I would just ask her whether there is any discussion or any notional commitment through the budgetary process to this initiative during the budget discussions. Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, there was not a discussion because we had not received the recommendations at the time that we were discussing the Estimates for Healthy Child Manitoba for 2002-2003. The member asks about discretionary funding. I would suggest to her that we do not have the Estimates of Healthy Child here, we do not have the staff who are intimately acquainted with Healthy Child Manitoba here.

I suggest once again that these questions would be best asked during the Estimates of the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Mr. Sale), who, of course, has access to that information. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I realize we do not have the staff from Healthy Child Initiative here, but we do have a minister that is part of a Cabinet committee for the Healthy Child Initiative here. I mean, the discussion on the budget, the Estimates process was not that long ago. It was only a few months ago. You know, the minister has indicated many times that this is an issue that she is extremely concerned about.

We know that she is an advocate within government on issues for women and female children. We do know that work is ongoing. I guess a question I might ask is: Is everything that was included in the budget of Healthy Child Initiative as a result of recom mendations that had come forward, issues that had been dealt with completely and all the work had been done internally and the budget was approved accordingly?

Or were there other issues that were on the table where recommendations had not come forward to government yet, but government felt that they were priority issues, so that partially your funding might need to be set aside with the expectation that recommendations were in the works? Can she indicate whether that process is followed or is used by her government? I mean, I know, very often, when we went through the budgetary process and there was a new initiative that was being worked on and the recommendations for funding would not be in till half way through the year, we would put half-year funding in place.

I guess my question to the minister is: Was there discussion around this issue, and was there a notional allocation of money in this year's budget to deal with sexually exploited children? Ms. McG ifford: I think I already indicated to the member that, whether there is discretionary funding or not, it would be best to ask the Minister of Family Services and Housing, who is responsible for the Healthy Child Committee and who has access to staff. I do not have the Healthy Child Estimates with me. I do not have the staff from Healthy Child with me.

That question had best be put to the person who has the expertise, and that is the Minister of Family Services and Housing. Mrs. Mitchelson: I guess I might ask the minister then, when they were discussing the budget or the Estimates for Healthy Child, did she, as an advocate on behalf of women, raise this issue with her colleagues indicating that it was a pressing issue and that it was something that she wanted to add her support to as they moved forward in this year's decision-making process around what some of the needs might be?

Did she indicate to her colleagues, through the Estimates process, that this was a pressing issue, one that was high on her priority list and one that would need some consideration some time this year? Ms. McGifford: Well, Mr. Chair, I think we have answered this question in I do not know how many different ways over the course of I do

July 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3693 not know how long. I have assured the member that there is a committee at the deputy level that includes representation from: Health; Family Services; Justice; Aboriginal and Northern Affairs; Education, Training and Youth; Culture, Heritage and Tourism; and the Status of Women. That committee is preparing recommendations that will come forth to the committee. I think, Mr. Chair, that this is evidence of the commitment to this Government on the importance of issues that relate to the sexual exploitation of children.

I know that these concerns were raised with the previous govern ment. The former minister tells me that they had just about reached resolution, but they had not reached resolution. I tell her the same. We have just about reached resolution, but have not reached resolution. I bring to her attention, once more, that child sexual abuse is a complex issue, that it requires a multifaceted strategy. I know the member has talked considerably about a safe house, but a safe house is only one aspect of a strategy.

I think the member knows that there are many other important aspects of a strategy to address the sexual exploitation of children. In fact, a safe house sometimes turns out, or there is a possibility that it sometimes turns out, not to be a terribly safe house if it becomes identified in the community, et cetera. Anyway, my point, the point that I have been making several times, is that, yes, this Government is committed. We will be consid ering recommendations.

If the minister wishes to have more information about discretionary funds and whether there is money budgeted to start a program half way through the year, or three quarters of the way through a year, or two-thirds of the way through the year, these are questions that would have to be asked of the Minister of Family Services and Housing who has access to the expertise from Healthy Child Manitoba and who is primarily responsible for that department. So, Mr. Chair, I think that the question has been answered, and I will leave it at that. * (1 6: 10) Mrs.

Mitchelson: I take it by that answer that it was not something that the minister raised with her colleagues. I am not going to dwell on this too much longer. I did ask her a direct question of whether she raised this issue with her colleagues during the Estimates process. She did not answer that question, so I would presume that, by not answering the question, she is admitting that it was not an issue that she did raise with her Cabinet committee.

I do want to indicate that I look forward to hearing an overall strategy and some sense of whether the community can expect a safe house after the September Cabinet meeting of the Healthy Child Initiative that is scheduled. I know the minister said there is a meeting in September. So I would expect, and I anticipate, as I know many others in the community will anticipate, an announcement very shortly there after around a comprehensive strategy for sexually exploited children.

I am glad that it is at the deputy minister level, and I am hopeful that all ministers, including this minister, will be briefed by her deputy before that Cabinet committee meeting so that they can move forward in a very expeditious way and make an announcement. So I do look forward to that and want the minister to know that I will support movement in that direction and give credit where credit is due when that announcement is made. Mr. Chairperson: Before I recognize the Member for Russell, I just want to inform the committee that private members' hour has been waived, and we will be in Supply until six o'clock.

Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Chair, I have some questions for the minister as they relate to the whole issue of gambling and perhaps the impact on families and women. This is an issue that I see the deputy minister expressing her gesture with regard to that, but that is fine. Mr. Chair, I sense that this is an issue that is important to the women in this province, and to families in this province, and it is for that reason that I raise the issue in this committee because this is the place to raise it. Mr.

Chair, for a number of months now we have been raising the issue about the advertising as it relates to gambling in Manitoba and what

3694 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 23, 2002 this is doing to families in our province. I think the AFM recently reported on their findings, that are not new, but indeed they continue to be vigilant on what the impact of gambling is on families and on young people in Manitoba. It is a negative impact. It is causing our youth, es pecially, to engage themselves in activities that are illegal because they require the money for their gambling addictions and their habits. Of course, Mr.

Chair, you live in a constituency that is probably more sensitive to that than many others, because your constituency is one that has very high moral values when it comes to issues of gambling and other activities that sometimes society engages in. So, when I ask these questions, I ask them on behalf of families and on behalf of women who see us going down a path that is not desirable. We have seen the budget for gambling in this province triple, and at least there are a few bodies in this province who have raised the red flag with respect to what advertising is doing to their children and their families.

I want to ask the minister why it is that she feels it is so important to involve herself and her department in the whole issue of advertising gaming in the province of Manitoba. Point of Order Ms. McGifford. Mr. Chair, on a point of order. I do not believe that questions on gaming should be directed towards the Ministry of the Status of Women. Questions on gaming can be asked at the standing committee which met last December and will be meeting again. Mr. Chai rperson: On the point of order raised, you do have a point of order. This does not come under the Status of Women.

This issue can be raised at the standing committee which considers the annual report of the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation. Thank you. Mr. Derkach: You did not ask for a response to that point of order. I would like to speak to the point of order. Mr. Cha irperson: Excuse me. Sorry, I did not see you. I will let you speak to that point of order. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, on that same point of order, as a matter of fact, you have already ruled, but I am going to ask you to reconsider your ruling- Mr. Chairperson : I will. Mr. Derkach: -because the information as presented, if you were listening carefully, my

preamble talked about the impact on families and on women. The Status of Women secretariat and the department, for that matter, has a responsibility to advocate on behalf of women in this province. In doing that the issues as they relate to such things as gambling, drunk driving, sexual abuse, and the list goes on and on that impact on families and women are indeed near and dear to the hearts of the people that I represent in my constituency who are women.

So I ask this question on behalf not just of the constituents in my area who are women but, I am sure, on behalf of women right through Manitoba who have expressed through their churches, who have expressed through their organizations, the frustration and also the concern about the issue of the advertising about gaming in our province. So it is in that context that I ask the question. Therefore, Mr. Chair, I ask that you respectfully consider this in your ruling. Mr. Chairperson: Yes, I will. Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr. Chair, to the same point of order.

While I appreciate the member's ingenuity in trying to bootleg the question on gambling to the Minister responsible for the Status of Women in the province of Manitoba, quite correctly the responsibility for gaming in the province of Manitoba is not a matter before this sitting today. Mr. Chair person: The appropriate forum, questions on gaming should be raised at the standing committee which considers the Annual Report of the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation. So I will stick to my earlier ruling that we raise questions at the appropriate forum. * * * Mr. Derkach : Mr. Chair, you disappoint me greatly.

You know I have the utmost of respect

July 23, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3695 for you as a member and as the Chair of this committee, but I also have a responsibility on behalf of the women in my constituency and other women that have expressed their concerns through me to deal. Therefore, with the greatest of respect, I challenge your ruling. Mr. Chairperson: The ruling of the Chair has been challenged. Voice Vote Mr. Chair person: All those in favour of sustaining the ruling of the Chair, say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Chairperson: All those opposed, please say nay. Some Honour able Members: Nay. Mr.

Chair person: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Formal Vote Mr. Derkac h: Yeas and Nays, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair person: Do you have support of another member? An Honourable Member: Yes. Mr. Chair person: The committee will recess for a recorded vote in the Chamber. The committee recessed at 4:32 p.m. The committee resumed at 5:31 p.m. Mr. Cha irperson: Will the committee come back to order? The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Derkach : I believe the critic is on her way in here, but I do have some questions to ask of the minister, and I guess I will have to try a different approach since, Mr.

Chair, you ruled that my questions were not relevant to the Status of Women, which I find very curious and certainly will be reporting that to the women in my constituency at least. I want to ask the minister whether or not the issue of gaming and the issue of the impact of gaming on women and children is a topic that she has had some discussion on with the Women's Secretariat. Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I just wanted to point out to the member that your ruling on his question was that it was out of order, so I think he put something slightly different on the record. I just wanted to correct that.

As to the question, have I had discussions with gaming, and I am assuming the member is referring to my department, the Women's Directorate, has this been brought to my attention, I am told by the ADM for the Status of Women and also the leader of the Women's Directorate that they have not ever had a call on gaming at the Women's Directorate. Mr. Derkach: The minister who is responsible · for the Status of Women is also the minister responsible for gaming in the province of Manitoba. She is also the minister who has launched a very aggressive program with respect to advertising gaming in the province of Manitoba.

The alcohol foundation of Manitoba, which deals with problem gamblers and problem issues as they relate to such things as alcohol and gaming, has come out very strongly with respect to the impact that gaming has on families in the province of Manitoba. This in itself must have some concern to the Women's Directorate and to the women of this province because, if I have heard it as an MLA, I know that somebody in the Women's Directorate must have heard it from families in the province.

Just recently we have seen from the research and the surveys that have been done that not only is there a direct correlation between gaming and the impact it has on families-as a matter of fact, the advertising in itself has caused an increase in the incidence of illegal activities by those who are addicted to gambling. From the people that I represent, there has been quite a concern raised about the fact that we as a province seem to be hooked on gambling, seem to be hooked on advertising gambling and perhaps some of the revenues that are raised from that activity.

In effect, we are destroying the lives of young people who are in the care of families and women. Therefore, we should be

3696 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 23, 2002 conscious of that, and we should be sensitive to it. So I find it somewhat surprising that the minister tells us that the Women's Directorate has never had a call on the issue of gaming and its impact, but I do want to ask a question as it relates to the Women's Directorate and ask whether or not the minister, in her discussions with her Directorate, has addressed the issue of the impact of gaming on families and on women in the province of Manitoba. Ms. McGifford: You know, Mr. Chair, I find the hypocrisy at this table absolutely staggering.

Here is this member from Russell, sitting at this table, talking about the evils of gambling when, under his watch, under his government, the former government, the Filmon government brought into this province 5000-plus VLTs, when his government expanded the two casinos in Winnipeg so that the overrun on the casinos was $10 0 million. I find it absolutely incredible, just rife with hypocrisy that this member can sit at the table and talk about the expansion of gambling. This is the Filmon legacy.

Now, I am assuming that the member's statements at the table today are evidence or is a public declaration that he rejects the initiatives of the former premier of this province, that he rejects the Filmon legacy, that it has nothing to do with him, except he was sitting at the Cabinet table. He was sitting at the table that made the decision to bring in 5000 VLTs, to spend $14 5 million on casinos. So I am just staggered by the hypocrisy.

Now, the question with regard to the Women's Directorate, I have asked the ADM for the Women's Directorate, and she has told me there have been no calls on gaming to the Women's Directorate. So I give the member that information once more. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, I am glad the minister has finally acknowledged that this is the place to talk about gaming, because she has entered into the discussion herself. So, now that she has set that precedent, we will continue.

No one is more rife with hypocrisy than the minister herself because she is the one who, in opposition, made all types of claims about the impacts of gambling on Manitobans. She is the one who is on record in Hansard in terms of her views about the impact of gambling on the people of Manitoba, and now she has the responsibility and the distinction of tripling the gambling advertising budget.

She has the distinction of being recognized as the minister who not only increased the threshold to gain more money from the VLTs in this province but has increased the number of casinos in this province, and they are yet to be built, to five, which we did not have. I have to say that the hypocrisy lies on the shoulders of this minister, not anyone else. Mr. Cha irperson: Order, please. I have just ruled that the gambling or gaming and advertising does not come under the Status of Women. We have just ruled on that, and I would just like to caution the Member for Russell to uphold that ruling. Thank you. Mr.

Derkach : Mr. Chair, if I were finished with my statements, then you may rule. As a matter of fact, I had not completed my statement, and I will try to make it relevant, but, indeed, the minister herself has set the precedent by talking about gambling. So I am responding to her comments, nothing more, and I will continue. * (17: 40) Point of Order Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, on a point of order. Mr. Chair person: On a point of order, the Minister responsible for the Status of Women. Ms. McGifford: On a point of order, Mr.

Chair, this member mocks the whole proceeding of this House with his silly comments, with his disparaging comments. This is ridiculous. Mr. Chair, I would like to bring to your attention that the Member for Turtle Mountain is addressing comments directly to me rather than addressing through the Chair. Mr. Chairperson: There is no point of order, dispute of the fact. I would just like to caution members to speak to the topic, Status of Women. Thank you. * * * Mr. Derkach : Mr. Chair, the Status of Women is an important portfolio in the Government of

July 23, 2002 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3697 Manitoba. It is a portfolio that is, not only respected, but one that many women depend on to advocate on their behalf for activities that are conducted in our society by government and other agencies and individuals. So the minister has a responsibility, on behalf of women in this province, to ensure that indeed we respond in a proper way to programs, to issues and to activities that are conducted that impact on those women.

There is one activity that impacts on the women in this province, and that is the activity of the addiction to gaming by young people, many of whom are women, many of whom impact on the lives of families, which impacts directly on the lives of women. So it is in that context that I asked the questions. Now, I did not ask the minister whether or not they have had any calls on the issue of gambling.

I have asked the minister whether or not she and the Women's Directorate staff have had any discussions and whether they have looked at the impact of gaming and the addiction aspect, which the minister herself through the newspaper agreed yesterday that there has to be a correlation, whether in fact they have discussed this in the Women's Directorate to ensure that the impact can be addressed in a proper fashion. Ms. McGifford: Yes, Mr.

Chair, I am advised once more by the ADM for the Status of Women, and I think I put this on the record twice now, that gaming is not an issue that has come to the attention of the Women's Direc torate. Mr. Derkach: So is the minister telling us in the Legislature that women in Manitoba, her Directorate that is responsible for advocating on behalf of these individuals across this province, have no concern, have not raised the issue, therefore have no concerns with respect to the problems of gaming, gambling and the Stats Canada report that suggests that there is a correlation between gambling addiction and crime?

Ms. McGifford: That is quite correct. As I said, the issue has not come to the attention of the Women's Directorate. We have had no phone calls. As far as I know there has been no evidence that there are more addictions among women in this particular area than numbers of men addicted, Mr. Chair. I think the member should be very careful. I think he is getting quite close to being critical of staff. We have very hardworking staff. I think that he should respect that our staff work long, hard hours. Mr. Chairperson: The Member for Russell, on a point of order? Point of Order Mr.

Derkach: Yes, on a point of order, Mr. Chair, you know I have the utmost of respect for the staff of the Women's Directorate. I do not think the minister should be putting words in my mouth as it relates to how I refer to the staff in the Women's Directorate. I do not hold them accountable or responsible for something that the minister is accountable and responsible for. The minister has responsibility to answer to · Manitobans with respect to questions that I may pose, but that has nothing to do with my attitude towards her staff at the Women's Directorate.

Indeed, I have said time and time again and I will continue to say that I do have a high regard for all of the staff at the Women's Directorate, as I do for other departments as well. So I would ask the minister to carefully choose her words. Ms. McGifford: On the same point of order, I am relieved to hear that the member does have respect for the Women's Directorate staff, because I thought he had said, and perhaps I misheard him, and I guess the record will show, I thought he had suggested something about had staff at the Directorate ever brought it to my attention.

I am glad to hear that he has indicated on the record that he has great respect for the staff. Mr. Cha irperson: On the point of order, there is no point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, the Women's Directorate is a body that was put in place for a very good reason. It was put in place, as J understand it, because many of the issues that impacted on women were not getting the attention they needed by legislators and by people who were in position of authority with the Government of Manitoba. So their

3698 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 23, 2002 responsibility was to ensure women's voices were heard, not only at the Government Cabinet table, but indeed at the Legislature as well. I think members around this table would agree that is in fact the reason we have a Women's Directorate. For those reasons we have a body of people who, during our term, were put in place to ensure all women had equal treatment across this province, and indeed whose voices could be heard. As an MLA, Mr.

Chair, I have to tell you I have had a number of calls from families, and specifically mothers, whose sons and daughters had run themselves into a problem because of their addiction to gaming at a very early age. They were asking us as legislators what we were prepared to do to help these people and to assist in bringing their families back to normality. I do not know whether we can do that or not. One of the areas that was highlighted to us was the area of the advertising of gaming by this Government. That is a specific issue, Mr. Chair, that is impacting on these people.

I want to ask the Minister responsible for the Status of Women whether she is satisfied that the gaming advertising that is going on in the province of Manitoba is conducive to a proper environment, both in the family and in the

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-3-69
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 3rd hansardpdf 69.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	83b004bef5e6722ccc58206bc08a13c932852753

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