LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 13 May, 1985. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Welding: Presenting Petitions RE ADING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS MR. SPE AKER : The Ho nourable Member for Concordia. MR. P. FOX: The petition of the First Presbyterian Church Foundation praying for

an Act to amend

an Act to incorporate the First Presbyterian Church Foundation. Also. Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of the Winnipeg Real Estate Board, praying for

an Act to amend

an Act to incorporate the Winnipeg Real Estate Board. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . . . MINISTERI AL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Business Development. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a statement for the House. Mr. Speaker, honourable members of the House, it is with great pleasure that I relate to you the signing this morning of a new $30-million Canada/Manitoba Agreement for Tourism Development. Mr.

Speaker, I have for members of the House circulated a copy of the program brochure outlining the various programs and the concerns of the new Canada/Manitoba Tourism Development Agreement, as well as a copy of the press release which was jointly issued by the Federal and Provincial Governments. The theme for this agreement, Mr. Speaker, is "Go World Class." "Go World Class" means that as a province we are stepping out of the local and regional tourism market into the international league, with hopes of creating a billion dollar industry in the province by the turn of the century.

The agreement provides $30 million, cost-shared 50- 50 between the Federal and Provincial Governments, for tourism development over the next five years. The agreement is the result of extensive consultations with the tourism industry. These consultations will continue throughout the five-year life of the agreement and beyond.

The $30 million will be spent as follows: $5 million for marketing expansion; $8 million for resorts and facilities; $9.5 million for Winnipeg attractions; $4 million for rural attractions; $2 million for tourism events; .5 million for industry productivity enhancement; and $1 million for administration, strategic research and studies, evaluation and public information. We are extremely ple ased with the agreement package. lt provides a clear direction for future growth in Manitoba tourism. lt can, I believe, make tourism a billion dollar stimulation to Manitoba's economy.

This agreement sets some fairly ambitious goals: Renewal and expansion of the attractions and resort facilities In our resort communities; Development of major new and expanded tourism attractions in Winnipeg and rural destination areas; Expansion of our existing major tourism events and development of new events; Substantial increase in marketing directed to highly targeted geographic and specialty travel markets; Development of programs that will increase the productivity of tourism through better staff and managerial skills, adoption of new technologies and the Improvement of operating systems; And improvement in Manitoba's market position In interprovincial and international markets.

We believe that these ambitions can be achieved - that the private sector, and the community groups involved in tourism, working In co-operation with governments through this agreement, can develop the industry into a billion dollar business. There are key points in the strategy which target on a geographic and market strength. lt focuses on specific destination areas and specialty markets, and it is designed to focus on our strengths and our commitment.

The agreement will encourage and support joint activities by groups or consortia of suppliers who are targeting specific interprovincial and international tourist markets. The agreement, as I've said, sets some ambitious goals. To achieve these goals we must look to a larger market. There is no question that we have in Manitoba cultural and historic resource strengths that are internationally competitive. We need to think world­ class when we develop resources for tourism that are already of world-class stature. Anything less and we're selling ourselves short.

We are confident that the strategy devised in this agreement Is achievable and that the industry in Manitoba will understand and respond. We have a plan and with hard work and effort on the part of all the actors involved in the tourism industry, we can succeed. Mr. Speaker , I look forward to working with the private sector, the industry, organizations, individuals and the Federal Government to successfully implement this tremendously Important agreement. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. W. STEEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Members on this side of the House welcome this agreement. We've been waiting for months for Tom and 1850

Jerry to get their act together and to sign this agreement, and by that I mean, the Honourable Tom McMIIIan and our Manitoba Minister. Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, for the last decade has been In a deficit position In relation to tourism and hopefully with this new agreement and with the favourable dollar exchange between the American and Canadian dollar, that Manltobans will get their fair share of the tourism dollar from outside of the Province of Manitoba. The tourism industry, Mr.

Speaker, Is a service industry and I would like to once again remind the Minister that this government's payroll tax Is a disincentive for the people in the tourist Industry. Also as I've said, Mr. Speaker, this Is a service industry, the tourism industry, and In Manitoba we have the highest taxes on spirits. Therefore, many times our restaurants are penalized because they have to charge so high for alcoholic beverages that go along with dinners.

So 1 would ask this Minister as he enters Into negotiations with his colleagues in government, that at all times he reminds them about the payroll tax acting as a disincentive and the fact that we have the highest taxes on spirits In Canada. Hopefully, Mr. Speaker, this new concept working along with the private sector, as the Minister has stated, will be a favourable approach for all of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK introduced, by leave, Bill No. 43,

An Act to amend The Housing and Renewal Corporation Act. (Recommended by Her Honour the lieutenant-Gov ernor.) INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of members to the gallery. We have 28 students of Grade 9 standing from the John Prltchard School under the direction of Mr. Kroeker. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for River East. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. Also there are 55 students of Grade 5 standing from the Dr. D. Penner Elementary School. They are under the direction of Mrs. Powell and Mrs.

Horn, and the school is In the constituency of the Honourable Member for Niakwa. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. Also prior to Oral Question period, I can advise the members that the problem with the sound system on Friday was due to power fluctuations in the building's power supply. Electricians are working on the problem and have found it to be associated with the functioning of a new elevator In the building. The elevator has been closed off. There may be some noise, but it will be kept to a minimum and the electricians hope to have the situation rectified shortly.

On Thursday and Friday of last week there was a major breakdown of equipment at the typesetter that produces Hansard. The equipment was repaired over the weekend and there may be some delay in Hansard over the next few days; although I am told that Thursday and Friday's Hansard have been prepared and have been distributed to all members. ORAL QUESTIONS Woodlands Garage - proposed laroffs MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for Manfor.

I am wondering if the Minister can indicate whether or not , in addition to the previously announced layoffs of Manfor, whether or not there Is a plan afoot to lay off additional people, this time In the Woodlands Garage, commencing June 2nd. MR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Business Development. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I did announce the last time this Issue was raised that management at Manfor were reviewing cost reduction efforts that would have implications throughout Manfor's operations.

I can tell the honourable member that the market situation with respect to both lumber and pulp and paper continues to be depressed, that management have been Instructed and understands the need to ensure where cost reductions can be put Into place, that those kinds of procedures should be considered and undertaken, not of course without consultation with the affected workers involved. Certainly, Mr.

Speaker, there has been no secret made of the fact that those kinds of actions may be necessary; and where they are in the long-term best interests of the people of Manitoba and the company, those decisions will be made. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could indicate how many will be laid off on June 2nd in this new round of layoffs. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, I do not have the exact number. I do know there will be major layoffs in the Woodlands division. This Is not entirely unusual; what is unusual, I believe, is the length of time.

There have been explanations provided and discussions held with Woodlands employees about the potential length of the layoff, under what circumstances there would be extensions to those layoffs. I think with all due respect to the member opposite, they understand the situation a lot better in The Pas than the Honourable Opposition Leader does. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I don't know why the Minister is being defensive.

I am simply asking for information. lt's not a question of whether or not we understand the situation; we just simply want the information. it may well be that all of the staff in The Pas are happy with. what he is doing. 1851

MondaJ, 13 MaJ, 1985 The question that I have is, I wonder if he could Indicate what the total numbers who are to be laid off is presently planned at for the immediate future. HON. J. STOAIE: Mr. Speaker, I believe I indicated in the first instance that I would take as notice the exact number. I did indicate that it would affect all aspects of Manfor's operations at some point in time and that what was left in question was the duration of the layoff. Manitoba Research Council - relocation of MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology.

I wonder if he could indicate whether or not it is the intention of the government to move the Manitoba Research Council to the new Science and Technology Centre on Ellice Avenue after the expiration of their lease this coming February. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Province of Manitoba is willing to look at the possible relocation of part of the Manitoba Research Council's activities from their present premises on Niakwa Place to the National Research Council Science Place Canada if that will help the Federal Government to formalize and finalize its plans with respect to that centre in the City of Winnipeg. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister can indicate whether or not the Provincial Government has been invited or was Invited to participate in the implementation team that was being struck for the NRC centre. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, the province was Invited to be part of the implementation team that was established by the Federal Government with respect to the National Research Council, it's due to manufacturing technology in the City of Winnipeg. We indicated that we would be pleased to participate in the implementation process on that task force if there was a firm commitment from the Federal Government with respect to funding of that centre. Unfortunately, the Federal Government was not in a position to make any firm commitment with respect to any funding of that centre. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that there would be the potential to bring forward a good deal of scientific research and development that could lead to future industrial development, private sector participation, the university and so on, does the Minister not believe that it would be a useful thing for the province to participate in, regardless of the commitments for future participation or funding by the Federal Government; in other words, simply to be involved in the process to ensure that Manitoba's interests were being served by the manner in which this was being investigated? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Yes, I believe this centre would be very important in terms of the manufacturi!'Jg industry in Manitoba, indeed all of Western Canada, it would be Important for the development of science and technology.

That's why we, as did members on that side of the House, worked to see the implementation of that centre by the previous Federal Government, and to have the construction start on that centre after many years of discussion, many years of consultation with the private sect or, with the then Federal Government, the then Provincial Government, this present Provincial Government, previous Federal Governments, the National Research Council and other organizations. That's why also, Mr. Speaker, we were dismayed when the Federal Government cut that centre on November 8th last.

Since that time we have been willing to work with the Federal Government to get that centre back in place in the City of Winnipeg. However, Mr. Speaker, we have to have a firm commitment from the Federal Government with respect to funding of that cen tre.

We cannot enter into arrangements or negotiations if it's expected that the Provincial Government, that this government, that the taxpayers of Manitoba will have to take responsibility for the costs that were previously agreed and the costs that are paid for by the Federal Government in other provinces, it would be unwise I think for this government to accept that responsibility on behalf of the Federal Government. Until they are prepared to formalize their involvement, we will not be formally part of that until they make that commitment to that ceritre here in the City of Winnipeg. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister refers to putting the centre back in place. lt doesn't seem to me that anybody ever removed it from Elllce Avenue. MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, it seems to me as though the building has proceeded to be completed and . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, ohl A MEMBER: Why is it in your brochure? MR. SPEAKER: Question. Order please, order please. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I know the Minister would like someone to think that it has been removed from there, and that the whole building has disappeared from the face of the earth, but it is there. MA. SPEAKER: Question. MR. G.

FILMON: But indeed, Mr. Speaker, I think that the crux ... MA. SPEAKER: Order please. If the honourable member has a question, would he kindly pose it? The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, what I think is the crux of the point that I want to approach Is, does the Minister not believe that it is in Manitoba's Interests for the Government of Manitoba to participate In the 1852

imple mentation phase, regardless of how ultima tely the costs will be shared or the costs will be suppor ted for the operation, but because it has the potential to attract industrial development and research? lt will be of long­ term benefit to Manitoba, and Mani toba should participate in ensuring that Manitoba receives maximum benefits. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The belief of a Mi nister is a matter of opinion. Would the honourable member wish to rephrase his question to seek information? The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speak er, is the Minis ter unwilling to have participation by the Province of Manitoba on the implementation team that will be put to work on the NRC Centre? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker, here, again, we have the Leader of the Opposition apologizing for actions of his friends, the Federal Government In Ottawa. Let's deal with the facts on this one, Mr. Speak er, and since the member keeps on making reference to the fact that the centre was not cut, was not put in limbo by the Federal Government, I refer him to the federal Hansard of January 28th of 1985, and I'll quote from that, Mr. Speak er.

This is the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of State for Science and Tec hnology. "Mr. Speaker, the decision to end the ongoing funding of the Institute for Manu facturing Te chnology in Manitoba is not an easy one for the gover nment to take." They admit that they took the decision to end the funding, Mr. Spea ker, not what the member is suggesting. That same day in the federal House - I'll send a copy over for the Member for Sturgeon Creek to read - in that same Hansard, the same day - (Interjection) - Mr. Speak er, in the . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: . . . federal House, that same parliamentary secretary to the Federal Minister also Indicated in Hansard that he expected the Provincial Government to accept some of the respo nsibility for the operating costs of that centre which is something else that is now being denied by the Federal Government. He said, "In this regard the Minister has invited the private sector and the Provincial Government to participate in the staffing and the operations of this facility." Mr. Speaker, so it's very clear that the Federal Government took a decision to cut the funding for that centre.

We have indicated that we are prepared, we accept the premise that the Federal Government would like more formal private sector involvement in this centre. We even accept the fact that they would like to tower the operating costs of that centre from the original proposal for $20 million. We have indicated to the Federal Government that we are prepared to co­ operate and work with them. But how do you negotiate, Mr. Speaker? What kind of negotiators are they going to be if they're going to sit down and get into a fuss not having any commitments, any commitm ents whatso ever. - (Interject ion) - Nonsense.

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oht MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speake r, I'm glad to hear the Minis ter acknowledge that the building is now In the process of being completed. What we're talking about Is the operation and that's precisely the question that I want to ask the Minister.

Does he not think that it's in Manitoba's interest, regardless of what decision is ultimately arrived at with respect to whether or not the province participates in any way in funding the operation to be Involved In the process of Implementation, to ensure that Manitoba obtains maximum benefit from the private sector participation, from the university participation, and from whatever other participation accrues to ensure that the operating costs are made? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I have indicated, Mr.

Speak er, that the Government of Manitoba would like to see and wants to see that centre come into being in the City of Winnipeg, wants it to meet the Initial mandate that those members when they were in government said that should be for that centre. We are prepared - (Interjection) - no, we're not. We are prepared. The Leader of the Opposition says that we're trying to make a political issue of this, Mr. Speaker.

We did not take the decision to remove the funding for that centre that was clearly indicated In the de Cotret statement of November the 8th and In the comments in the House on January 28, 1985; we did not make that decision. We are, however, prepared to work and co-operate with the Federal Government in order to make that centre come into being In the City of Winnipeg. We've Indicated that we are prepared to implement activities of the Provincial Gove rnment, it can be moved Into that centre. We 've indicated that we are prepared to work with them on an implementation committee. We want a simple thing, Mr.

Speaker, a very simple thing In any negotiation. Any simple person would understand that If you're going to negotiate something like that you want a commitment from the other party. We have not got that commitment and until we get that commitment, we will not be part of that process, Mr. Speaker. Tax reform, proposed MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Deputy Premier. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. SPEAKER: Order please. If members wish to hold a private debate, would they do so outside the Chamber?

I'm trying to hear the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. 1853

Monday, 13 ..., 1986 MR. B. RANSOM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Deputy Premier. The Minister of Finance has alleged that the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition, through taking advantage of tax loopholes, are not paying their fair share of taxes in this country. My question to the Deputy Premier would be, are there any plans within the Cabinet to have Cabinet Ministers reveal their tax returns so that Manltobans can judge whether they're paying their fair share? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, the member on the other side, I think, misses the whole point of tax reform. it's to get the law changed so that the rules of the game are fair for everyone across the country, not just calling for unilateral action. One has to answer one's tax return accurately as the law of the land of the day stands. What we're upset about and what we want changed is the law, because it's an unfair law. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker , Members of this Legislature receive one-third of their indemnity, tax free, does the government have any plan to request Ottawa to remove that privilege? HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, what we're looking at is not something that will go at pruning one little tree In exquisite detail. What we're asking for is some kind of conditions that treat the whole forest, that deal with the whole inequity of loopholes for the whole upper third of the income-earning people in Canada at the expense, Mr. Speaker, of the middle and low income people in this country. School Curriculum - teaching of peace MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Speaker, a Saturday headline in the Winnipeg Free Press, indicated that the Minister of Education wants peace taught in Manitoba schools. The

article went on to say that schools have a responsibility to provide students with factual knowledge about the consequences of nuclear war and alternatives to conflict. I'd ask the Minister whether teachers and trustees, through their various associations, support the government in this policy view. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, I'd just like to say I'm sure I am not alone in either wanting peace, or wanting to discuss peace, or wanting to explore ways to find peace for the violence in today's world.

But in terms of what I said at the conference, what was reported was quite accurate, but it's always difficult to get everything into an

article in terms of space and there were a few things that I said that were not reported that answered the member's opposite question, and it will only take me a few minutes to give them to you. - (Interjection) - lt was a very good conference. First of all I said that we were studying and looking at what they were doing in other jurisdictions.

I think it's very important that we find out what is going on in other countries, in other provinces, and other jurisdictions, because we can learn a lot from programs that they have in place and how they're handling what is a difficult problem for any classroom and any school, is coping with the effects of the threat and the belief by our young students, that they are going to die, that they are going to be killed with a nuclear bomb and they are not going to live out their lives, to lead full and adult lives.

That affects their school work; it affects their relationships; it affects their long-term planning in their careers and their personal lives, Mr. Speaker. I said that we were studying it and looking at what they were doing; that I had a report coming into my office over the summer and that I would be reviewing it.

I also said, because the conference was put on by academics and teachers and doctors and other organizations very active and interested in this issue, that If we were going to look at it seriously, and I thought we should, that we would have to go to the parents; we would have to go to the educational community; we would have to go to the public at large and involve them in this discussion. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, the Minister indicated that she wanted to bring into the classroom the effects of nuclear war.

At what grade is it the Minister's Intention to bring the horrors and, of course, the full force of nuclear war - those horrors - at what grade is it her intention to bring it into the public school system? HON. M. HEMPHILL: First of all, I remind the member opposite that I just said I didn't yet have the report. The report is reviewing programs and making some recommendations. So until I see it, I am not able to see what age levels they're teaching, and what they're teaching.

What I did say though to the group, whose topic was "Education, Peace In the Curriculum," is that if there was any consideration given there would have to be several elements and principles taken into consideration before it was Introduced, and the first one was age appropriate, Mr. Sp�aker. The first thing I said that would have to be given very careful consideration is, that what was taught be taught at an appropriate age. That's very important.

I also said that it would have to, and I repeat, have the involvement and the participation of members of the community, members of the public, membe1 s of the educational community, and the public at large. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, maybe the Minister can tell us how far along this process of curriculum development is at this particular time. But in teaching peace and using her words, alternatives to conflict, will national defence of our borders and defence in general, will that be considered wrong, or will that be allowed Into the curriculum at all? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: I think the member opposite knows that right now we have a very unbalanced system. We do teach about war. We do teach conflict. We do teach in the history, we teach a lot about wars and 1854

conflict and violence. We 're teaching that every day. What we don't have is the alternatives and we don't have the other information that our students need to know to get a better balance. But I did say something in that speech, Mr. Speake r, 1 said that we would have to deal with peace and conflict; that it would have to have both sides of the issue; it would be a peace and conflict prese ntation. We have more of the one and too little of the other, but it could be a balanced view. MR. C. MANNESS: A final supplementary , Mr. Speake r.

The Min ister also ind icated that young people feel highly anxious and helpless about the potential for nuclear dest ruction. I'm wondering though what she is doing to provide quality education, so those students who feel anxious about their job prospects after graduation will know that they have been provided with the very best learning skills. What is she doing within that major area? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speak er, around 50 to 80 percent of the students in the school have as their greatest fear - their greatest fear - that they are going to be killed with a nuclear bomb.

That's their number one fear and it even supersedes the fear that is usually the top fear of young people and that is that their parents are going to be killed. You don't address that major fear and issue by looking at jobs; that's another issue. we look at quality of e ducation and I've told the member opposite that because it would req uire me hours to give the list of what we have done to improve the quality of education, I expect we will have to do that In Estimates, because they don't have the tolerance for that kind of information, that degree of information.

But when we're dealing with this Issue, their fear of dying and being killed and of this earth not existing anymore, that has to be dealt with directly. Nuclear war films - shown in schools MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. A. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, just following on the previous questions, I wonder whether it comes as a surprise to the Mini ster that some of the young children in our schools are frightened and worried about the dangers of nucl ear war when there are such films, frightening and horrific films, being shown to children in that regard. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

Would the honourable member wish to reph rase his question to seek Information and not opinion? MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I guess the point of my question is: is this surprising, in view of the fact that young children are upset and some are losing sleep and some are nervous and agitated about this, when the school divisions themselves are frightening the children by showing them horrific films on nuclear war? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. That is the same question. The honourable member is asking for an opinion. Would he wish to rephrase his remarks to ask for information? The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. A.

DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'll ask the Min ister the same question, but I will rephrase it and simply ask her whether she supports and approves a policy of showing young children frightening films on nuclear war. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, the exact pu rpose of the exercise . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The honourable member is still asking for an opinion. Would he wish to rephrase his question to seek Information? Public Schools Finance Board - priority of funding MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker , I'll go to another question then, my point simply being that the government Is part of the problem. Mr. Speaker , I wanted to ask the Min ister a more specific question concerning the construction of schools in the St. Vital School Division, and In regard to the policy of the Public Schools Finance Board. Given that there Is a pressing need In St. Vital due to some expanding communities In the southern part of the area, the school board seems to be preoccu pied with a junior high addition to a re cently built school, even though there is existing space available.

I wanted to ask the Min ister what the priority of the Public Schools Finance Board is in reg ard to that. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, when I announc ed the new policy for the building of schools in the Province of Man itoba, I Indicated clearly that there were some new priorities. The first priority for funds that are available this year is to upgrade and renovate the older schools that are throughout the Province of Manitoba, that have not had any atten tion, any upgrading, any money for 20, 30 or 40 years. So the No. 1 priority Is upgrading of deficient and older schools throughout the province.

No. 2 priority will be to build schools where there are new enrolments. Where there are increases in the population or new enrolments, clearly that remains a priority and we must follow that. we also have an additional policy that we hope the school boards will be designing both renovat ions and new schools, taking into consideration community use. it's very important when we look at all the monies that are going into our schools these days, that they not just be designed for the teachers and the students and the schools, but they be designed so they can be well used by the commun ity.

That's another criteria that we brought in. We 're also hoping to upgrade heat ing and lighting systems that are defi cient in the older schools. Apart from our establishing the provincial criteria, it is up to the local school division to decide on their priorities for their space, Mr. Speaker. 1855

Monday, 13 May, 1985 MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, given that guideline of the Minister and given the fact that apparently some several hundreds of thousands of taxpayers' dollars have been used to improve and expand and renovate Glenwood School, and the school board is now going to convert those classrooms into administrative space, are there any provisions that would prevent that action being taken by the school board? HON. M. HEMPHILL: There is nothing that prevents that action being taken by the school board, Mr.

Speaker, providing it has the approval, first, of the Public Schools Finance Board, and then myself. lt has to be looked at in the overall request that they're making. lt is up to them to decide where to house the children, where to have their adminis tration, and what programs will take place in what schools, and to make their request based on their decisions on the use of the facilities for program and student enrolment. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker , a final question.

Given that the superintendent of the area has indicated that students in the new area bus to an established school, that the cost is paid for by local taxpayers, but if there is an addition to a new school, then the province would pay. Is that the policy? Is that the kind of program that is in effect in our province? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker , I'll take that question as notice to make sure I understand exactly what he's talking about.

When you're talking about having 714 schools - 750 schools in the Province of Manitoba and even dozens of schools in the particular division that he's talking about - it's hard to know exactly what he is referring to. In general, the Provincial Government does not pay transportation costs within the city limits, as they do out in the country. But if he lets me know which school it Is he's talking about, I'll make sure I have an accurate answer. Careerstart Program - criteria re applications MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Minister responsible for the Careerstart Program. Could the Minis ter indicate whether the government, in perusing applicants for Careerstart from businesses and the jobs that they intend to fill under the Careerstart Program, whether the government has a rating system by which they evaluate a job in a certain business higher than a job in another business, and thereby determine which jobs receive priority? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Employment Services. HON. L. EVANS: Ye s, Mr. Speaker , there are various criteria used by the field staff in analyzing the applications.

One of the criteria is quality of job, the idea being that there should be an opportunity for young people to have experience in as highly skilled, highly challenging occupations as possible. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, I would appreciate if the Minister could provide myself and members of the House with some of the criteria and particularly those dealing with the quality of job; and as well if the Minister could provide me with the listing of businesses which are most suitable, in other words, the priorization of business; and in that list, indicate where in that list agriculture fits in terms of this government's priority for Careerstart hiring. HON. L EVANS: Mr. Speaker, that type of question is one that's suitable for the Estimates review. Perhaps that could be discussed at that time. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that applications are being made now for Careerstart and a num ber of those applications are being turned down, I think the answers to those questions are important now, not at some future time when we consider the Minister's Estimates.

My supple mentary question to the Minister is that, in view of the fact that he's indicated these criterion are decided on a regional basis, would he care to indicate why it appears that in rural Manitoba where agriculture is the No. 1 indus try that jobs under Careerstart applied for by farm businessmen are being turned down because agriculture does not rate as a high priority in the job rating scheme that this government establishes in their rural Manitoba offices? HON. L. EVANS: Again, Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member is making some general observations and asking some general types of questions that again are best discussed in Estimates. But one has to look at the rates of unemplo yment around the province, within the regions of the province, and indeed that is one of the factors that is looked at as well as the dispersion of population within our province. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister assure students in rural Manitoba who have had jobs in line on farms in rural Manitoba and those jobs through Careerstart have been rejected by this government because they don't fit its criteria of importance, would the Minister give the as Surance to those students in rural Manitoba and those potential employers in rural Manitoba, that agriculture will not be considered a second-class indus try in rural Manitoba where it is the No. 1 emplo yer? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I wouldn't consider agriculture to be a second-class or a third-class indus try.

Even though we are spending millions of dollars more on this program than ever before, the fact is that the demand far exceeds the supply of money . The demand exceeds the supply of money. I think it's incumbent upon anybody adminis tering a program to make darn sure that the occupational skills are of the highest nature so that the young people can get worthwhile experience that they can use in subsequent years. Having said that, monies do go to farms and so on, but we want to make sure, Mr. Speaker, that the money is used in a· way that is going to add in a net additional way to those who are working.

We don't want to just 1856

hand out money to employers who are going to hire people anyway. We want to create net additional jobs, and having said that, Mr. Speaker, I would dare say, proportionately, there is more money going to the rural parts than there are to the urban parts of this province. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Careerstart Program Is designed to develop skill enhancement in provincial empl oyees, would the Minister stop discriminating against agriculture in which there are the various business skills ranging from weather forecast ing, chemis try, market planning, purchasing agent and a numb er of various skills in mechanics and other operat ions? Would he stop his department discriminating in rural Manitoba and turning down farm applications under Careerstart because they don't rate in this government's priority of jobs? HON. L. EYANS: Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member is repeat ing his que stion and he doesn't want to listen to the answer. The fact is we are doing our darnede st to distribute these funds to create the greatest potent ial work experience for our young people In this province. If he'd talk to some of his colleagues in Ottawa and asked them to help us a bit by not cutting back on their funding, we'd be in a little better position to approve more applications. Mr. Speaker, I think we are distributing these funds equitably and fairly and not trying to discriminate against any one sect or or any one Ind ustry in this province.

Brandon University - Shanghai University contract MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Turtle Mountain. · MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education. lt is reported that Brandon Un iversity has entered Into a teacher training arrangement with a Shanghai University. I'm wondering if the Min ister can provide any details to the House about that contract. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: I'll take that as notice, Mr. Speake r. Interest Rate Relief Program - billing and collecting repayable portion MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina.

MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Acting Minister of Agriculture. Could the Acting Min ister of Agriculture indicate how quickly I might receive the information I requested some 10 days ago on the pay-back of the Interest Rate Relief loan portions that many farmers in this province received ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Housing. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Ye s, Mr. Speaker. I'll take that question as notice and bring an answer back to the House as soon as possible. Manitoba Broiler Hatching Egg Marketing Plan - reduction in broilers MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin­ Russell. MR. W McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Acting Minister of Agriculture and ask if he'd be kind enough to get me the Information regarding the numb er of birds that have been killed at a killing plant. The information that I'm get ting Is reduced from 1, 000 to 200. I want to know if the Acting Minister of Agriculture can get me that Information. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Mr.

Speaker , I believe the Minister of Agriculture undertook to provide that answer last Friday, and I'm quite confident that he will have that information for you as soon as possible. COMMITT EE CHANGE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Could I have a change in the Public Accounts Committee: Kovnats for Lyon. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Could I have leave? MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, I know that all members of this side with some regret noticed that the Honourable Member for River East is no longer with us on this side, has distanced himself somewh at, and indeed the Member for Wolseley a little further. I know that the Honourable Member for Pembina will regret - (Inte rject ion) - this very much. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Acting Government House Leader. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, would you kindly call second reading of Bill No. 2, followed by No. 12, please? ADJOURNED DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS MR.

SPEAKER: On the propos ed motion of the Hon ourable Mini ster of Health, Bill No. 2, the Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Stand, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Stand. On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Commu nity Services, Bill No. 12, the Honourable Member for Fort Garry. 1857

Monday, 13 May, 1885 MA. C. BIAT: Stand. MA. SPEAKER: Stand. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. L. DESJAADINS: Mr. Speaker, before I move to go to committee, I understand that there is a willingness to forgo the Private Members' period so if we could agree by leave. MA. SPEAKER: Is there leave to dispense with Private Members' Hour this day? Leave has been granted. HON. L. DESJAADINS: I would like to move, Mr. Speaker, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Employment Services, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Departments of Finance; Crown Investments; and Environment and Workp lace Safety and Health; and the Honourable Mem ber for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Business Development and Tourism. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT AND TOURISM MA. CHAIRMAN, C.

Santoa: Committee, please come to order. We are considering Item No. 3.(a)

(1) Tourism, Travel Manitoba: Salaries; 3.(a)

(2) Other Expenditur es; 3.(a)

(3) Grant Assistance - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MA. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, when we finished last Friday we were discussing the market of the different programs within the tourism area. There is one the Minister mentioned, a debt servicing and grant? What is this group of people - it was something the Mini ster read off when he read a number of them off. MA. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J. STOAIE: Yes, there were four programs or activity areas that I mentioned, along with one called debt servicing and one that was grants.

The allocation of the grants is not changed from'84- 85, and those grants are directed towards the industry associations, conventions and visitors' bureaus, etc. The debt servicing - there has been some increase in debt servicing that relates to loans outstanding on funding provided through the Destination Manitoba Program. We assume interest charges for the loan portion of the grants, and those funds come to the government through MDC. MA. F. JOHNSTON: This group does not make any decisions as to who gets the grants? HON. J. STOAIE: No, Mr. Chairperson, no. MA. F. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the new program or agreement that was announced today by the Minister, there are a couple of questions I would like to ask on it. The $30 million is $15 million between the two governments. Are all programs split equally? HON. J. STOAIE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, they are. MA. F. JOHNSTON: In the case of the Winnipeg Attractions Program and in the case of the Tourism Events Program, Industry· Productivity Enhancement Program, and Program Seven, Administration and Strategic Research, I note that in those programs, federal and provincial assistance will be 100 percent eligible for the costs.

Now it's understandable that the federal, If they approve something to be done by the government, it would be 100 percent - 50 percent each - but let's say in the case of the tourism events, you've got 100 percent eligible costs for federal-provincial, and you've got SO percent for non-profit. What is the breakdown going to be? In other words, how much is going to be left for the non-profit groups or the private sector groups? You've only got $2 million over five years in that particular program. What is the breakdown? Is the federal-provincial going to use it all?

Are the municipalities going to use it all or non-profits? What criteria will be used to make sure all sectors will receive part of those monies? HON. J. STOAIE: I don't think it's possible at this point to break it down and say, 50 percent of that money - the $2 million -w ill go to events, for example, in Program Five that are promoted by the Federal and Provincial Governments. Certainly we, as in other program areas, will be looking at proposals that come from a wide variety of groups.

Funding will be assigned, I suppose, on the basis of other criteria, whether it's a new, expanded effort in terms of an event; how that particular event is seen fitting in with the general thrusts of the development agreement generally; and finally, I believe the word in the agreement is, common benefit one might see from funding a particular event. lt would be my expectation that a good deal of the funding under this particular program will be going to the non-profit or not-for-profit groups, but certainly there will be private sector projects, particularly those new projects which will be deserving of assistance. 1 should make it clear that the assistance that is being targeted to the private sector in most of the areas is essentially one-time startup assistance. lt is also true that in the not-for-profit section, our general desire is to see that those groups become self­ sufficient after a period of time, recognizing that that's to go.

We cannot ad infinitum support not-for-profit groups, that they have to develop strategies whereby their ongoing marketing efforts, or whatever, can be sustained by contributions of that particular group or those benefiting from the activities of that group for that event. MA. F. JOHNSTON: On that particular program, you have mentioned one-time startup, and then you say, 1858

after startup continuing suppor t will decline. Is there any formula for the declining of the support? HON. J. STORIE: I don't think there is any formal declining support principle written into the agreement, it will depen d, again, on how quickl y and how successfu lly that particular event becomes established and how quickly other sources are found to support the activities of that particular event. Again I say to the principle, I think both the Federal Minister and myself believe that the principle is self­ support.

I don't think I would want to cate gorically say that, well we're only going to fund for two years, if at some point it is viewed as feasible to suppor t it for a further year and make it self-suf ficient, I think that good sense would dictate that one look at those on an as­ needed basis beyond the first year ev en. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: We ll then, the City of Winnipeg one, the minimum project size is $1 million, and the total capital costs for new development of $500,000 for existing expansion, is any of that money committed now such as the changes that have been proposed to the Convention Centre, or any of it in the core area? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperso n, none of the funds have been comm itted at th is point.

The Convention Centre obviously would be one of those facilities that may be eligible under the agreement; although, in all fairness, I would certainly like to see - and I believe my comments have been echoed by the mayor - that in the event that there is some major upgradings, some major changes to the Convention Centre, that we might look outside of this program particularly because of the fact that the Federal Government was not initially involved in supporting the Winnipeg Convention Centre and has subsequently contributed tens of millions of dollars to other facilities which effect ively compete with the Convention Centre.

But at this point there are no proposals that have been reviewed by the eo-management team or by the advisory group which will be reporting to the management team on individual projects. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Who will the management team from the City of Winnipeg be made up of? HON. J. STORIE: The term I used is perhaps incorrect. There are eo-managers of the program, and those are essentially representatives of the Federal and Provincial Governments.

There will be an advisory group established, which will be esse ntially private sector, and they will be commenting on the criteria and be making, in effect, reco mmendations in support of various projects. If the member is aware of some of the people who served as advisory and sup port groups to the previous agreement, he will know of some of the names that will, in all likelihood, end up fulfilling the same kind of function under this particular agreement. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Wel l, I know that the City of Winnipeg has not got any funds in this.

But is there going to be nobody from the City of Winnipeg on the management team? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, two points on that question; No. 1, the program is administer ed, as the member knows, by the two levels of government. The final decisions will, in eff ect, be made by that particular governing body. The advisory capacity, it's cer tainly possible that on the advisory team there will be represe ntation from citizens of Winnipeg. The personnel for that particular advisory committee has not been established at this point.

However, I'm quite certain that individual actors in the tourism Industr y, who also are actively Involved in tourism in Winnipeg, will be on that advisory board. MR. F. JOHNSTON: On Program Four, where it has Lake Winnipeg beaches, Hecla re gion, would the government-owned Hecla Hotel be eligible for monies under this program? HON. J. STORIE: I presume if there was a desire to do a major upgrading that they would also be eligible, providing they fit in with the other criteria that are outlined under Program Four. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, the minimum project size will be $500,000 and we have $4 million in this program over five years, which is less than a million a year, who will be the committee deciding the funding on this program? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the plans are to have advisory committees established, but again the final decision, if that's the member's question, will be made by the joint managers of the program, the Agreement Manage ment Committee, which is a shared respo nsibil ity on the part of the two levels of government.

The member's refe rence to Program Four, there are other programs which could be util ized in those particular destination areas as well. So the fact that the rural attraction's Program Four has designated $4 million does not mean that other programs could not be tapped. Other funds from other areas could be utilized to support development in those areas. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, if I'm not mistaken, there was a committee under Dest ination Manitoba regard ing rural attractions and I believe it was

Section 6 of the Destination Program, a committee set up that examined all proposals. Is there going to be that type of a committee set up exa mining proposals on any of these programs? HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, there will be. I think we're going to be following a model esta blis hed by Dest ination Manitoba relatively closel y. Again, those will be advisory and program review comm ittees.

They will be designated for individual programs, and we will certa inly be drawing on the strength in those regions or in those areas to ensure that proposals are vetted through a group of people who have some knowledge and commitment to the area and the industry as a whole. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MR. W. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, as I said earlier, we welcome this new federa l-provincial 1859

Monday, 13 May, 1185 agreement. My one fear is that, just as the Member for Sturgeon Creek was mentioning, for example, in Program No. Four, Rural Attractions, $4 million over a five-year period and yet they call for a minimum project size of $500,000 is that we are with this whole concept only going to be funding a limited number of programs. Obviously , government is going to be after major events, major capital programs and new and initiative ideas that are going to assist the tourism industry in Manitoba in a large way.

I just point out to the Minister that when you have all your eggs in so few baskets that the political involvement may become very very strong. When you are doling large sums of money for a few events or a few capital projects that the hard facts of politics are going to play a major role. You, as the Minister, and your federal counterpart are going to be looking at a number of projects that might be eligible for government assistance and, because it's a winner-take-all type of proposal, that politics is going to be played hard and heavy.

This is the one drawback to this is that there are going to be few winners and lots of losers as I can see it. If the Minister ·and his government are prepared to try and get major events, and this program appears to be geared towards major events or major projects, I just warn him that the hard facts of politics are likely going to become very evident with this program in the next five years. HON. J. STORIE: I don't accept the member's premise for a minute that there has to be politics. I think the politics that are going to be played in this program are the politics of developing an industry.

What we're looking to do by this - and the member I think correctly identifies the major thrust of this agreement, and that is that it focuses on some major investment , private sector investment in a numb er of areas, rather than I would think politicizing the program and making small attractive grants throughout our province which have no major impact on the way that we're perceived as a travel desti nation.

I suppose it's politically attractive to say, well, let's spread out the small grants in my constituency and your constituency and his constitue ncy, but the goal of this program was to create an impression and create a reality that Manitoba has lots to offer naturally and we need the facilities and the events to go along with that natural beauty and those natural assets. The fact is that what we'll be looking for throughout the program is the greatest investment of private capital to the minimum investment of public capital. We see that as being the way the program, in ideal terms, should go.

So those people who are prepared to make the greatest personal investment or corporate investment will be those who, assuming that their particular project meet the overall criteria of the program, will be the benefactors, but again the whole idea here is to lever the private sector into investing in world class events and attractions, and we're indicating, through this program, that we're prepared to support those. The member made reference to the $4 million that is available through Program Four.

If you tie that to the amount of funding that is available through Program Two, you come up with $12 million of support for private sector incentive programs. The Program Four is, in essence, a way to provide support to the not-for-profit groups and for tourism organizations, as well as municipalities. MR. W. STEEN: Mr . Chairman, there is no doubt that the program is geared towards Manitoba coming up with major facilities and perhaps of the nature of current Hecla Island-Gull Harbour facility or the Minaki lodge, which is in Ontario, or as the Minister said, Elkhorn Ranch in the western part of the province.

I think the total program is on the right track, that in order to obtain tourism and tourists from 250 to 350 miles away from Manitoba that they have to come for a major event and they're not going to come for nickels and dimes. lt's like the one that is outside of Minneapolis that advertises heavily in the Winnipeg paper, the one on the river down there where they have the raft rides and so on. This might be something that can occur on some of our rivers in Northern Manitoba, is a project along those lines. A MEMBER: The water's a little colder. MR. W.

STEEN: Ye s, the water is a little colder, but you're supposed to stay in the raft and not be falling out of it, and so on - or tube ride. Mr. Chairman, it'll be very interesting over the next four or five years to see how this program does attract major events and the emphasis is on major marketing and major capital projects and, as the Minister has said, projects that come with imagination and come with lots of private dollars will be what will be getting the ears of the government officials that will be assisting · these programs.

So, hopefully, as far as I am concerned, that as a member who represents a Winnipeg riding, that a major tourist attraction in the near future will spring up in the Winnipeg area, and that this program, jointly operated by the Provincial and Federal Governments, will be playing a major role In seeing such a concept developed in the Winnipeg area. So I look forward to seeing this new endeavour proceed and both Winnipeg and rural Manitoba receiving some new initiatives. MR. CHAIRMAN: Before I call on the Member for Emerson, the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I note in the Minister's answers, and in the brochure that he passed out today, that he is alluding to the fact that rural Manitoba may well qualify for funding of projects under Program Four and possibly again under Program Two.

Now, in read ing the program it would indicate that there are thr ee regions that are focused in the presentat ion: the Eastern Precam brian region; the Lake Winn ipeg Beaches/ Heels region and the Riding Mountain/D uck Mountain region. lt goes on further to say, "The proposals will also be received for development or expansion of attractions serving specially markets in any rural area." Could the Minister indicate whether there is a preset percentage of the $4 million in rural attractions and of the $8 million in Program Two, which will of necessity 1880

llonday, 13 ... , 1815 by the specific identification of those three regions, be ded icated to projects within those regions? HON. J. STORIE: No, there is no set amount allocated to any of the regions or any of the specialty market areas. it will depend again on the quality and the-kind of proposals that come forward. If they fit the criteria, are deemed to be world class, are prepared to make sign ificant investment, then I think they have to be considered. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, when the Minister is ref erring to world class attract ions, there is in my constituency a world class attraction in the presence of the prehistoric museum, if you will, at Morden where the bentonite mines in the Pembina esca rpment north and south of the community of Morden, particularly north of Morden towards Miami, have been producing fossils of world class rarity. A disp lay of those fossils is a very expensive proposition and the museum in Morden has done an incredibly good job with assistance over the past.

I am not cert ain whether there has been assistance in the last three years because I think the program was put In place - at least funding was approved for it I belie ve prior to 19 81 - but I am told that the quality of fossil, the type of prehistoric animal that is found in the bentonite mines is unique in the world, and by the fact that the bentonite mine s are very close to the surface and haven't undergone the types of compression that great depths of overburden have exposed similar fossil deposits in Nebraska and other midwestern United States, that these fossils are probably the best that have been found to date.

Could the Minister indicate to me whether that is the kind of world attraction in the form of a mus eum and display that could be considered with an application under this program for, or indeed program to - and I note in reading the proposal that not-for-profit tourist organizations - I am sure that this would probably fit in, it's not a tourist organization - but cert ainly it's not for profit. I don't think they make any money at the museum. Is that the kind of world class tourist attract ion that the Minister is hoping to enhance through this program? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, I have no intention of getting into a debate with the member of what is or isn't a world class event. I would jus t say off the top of my head without looking at what eventually may happen, that I am not going to be making those decisions. I think for something to be classed a world class attrac tion has to be attrac ting not hundreds of people or thousands, but tens of thousands. I am aware, and I am sure the member is, of many attrac tions in all parts of rural and Northern Manitoba that are considered by local standards to be valuable assets.

I kno w there are going to be individ ua l attract ions making application that are going to be disappointed because some decision has to be made at some point about what really is going to benefit and be a draw for Manitoba in the long term. There are going to be some painful decisions made. Certain ly, from the way the member described it, I suppose it's a project that could be considered in that 1861 light. I don't have enough detail on the specifics of the kind of traffic that Is attracted to the area, etc., which would lead me to make any definitive answer on.

I suppose the only suggestion I can make Is that anyone in the province, any not-for-profit group that feels that their particular project has merit, review the criteria, establish in their own minds whether they fit the criteria. If they are convinced they do fit the criteria, then they should make an application and it will be considered. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, that is the nature of my questioning because these museums, particularly this one, is staffed and represented by a largely volunteer board. I think they only have a couple of paid employees and not even on a full-time basis, I don't believe.

Therefore, their resources are quite limited. Now when you are talking about a project for which the minimum project size will be $500,000 in capital cost, and for expansion $250,000, you are talking large projects. You are talking world class attract ions.

That's why it would be of interest to know what the definition is of a world class attract ion, because these groups don't have the spare time and they cer tainly don't have the spare money to pursue for 3, 4, 5, 6 months, 10 months, 2 years, an application and be told, well, we just need this extra little bit of Information; we just need to have this little detail clarified. They have got better things to dedicate their resources to than the pursuit of a grant that they may well never have qualified for.

That's why I am attem pting to determine from the Minis ter what he means by world class and whether a museum fits Into the criterion of tourism attract ions which are going to be considered for funding under this program. HON. J. STORIE: We ll, again I don't know of the facility that the member is ref erring to. Perhaps I will have a chance to get down and view it. I would simply say that the general criteria is explained in the back of the brochure that the member received earlier In the House. To the extent that it meets those criteria, I would say proceed.

In a general way I indicated to the member that a world class attract ion is Science Place Ontario that has the prospect, at least, of drawing hundreds of thousands of people over the course of a year. I suppose, in general terms, that's what my interpreta tion of the words "world class" would be. As I said, the individual attract ions such as the one the member is ref erring to would have to assess on their own the merits of proceeding with the project, which would require a major investment .

They would have to determine whether they viewed themselves as a world class or a potentially world class event or attra ction, and then they should apply. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, they do consider themselves to be a world class attract ion, because as I indicated the quality of the fossil remains are superior to any others that have been yet unearthed, and they are very unique types of fossilized remains. Maybe I could offer to the Minister, either in my accompaniment or, if he doesn 't so desire, I can cert ainly arrange with the Museum Board in Morden to have a

MondiiJ, 13 May, 1985 tour of the museum down there so he can determine for himself whether it's world class, because cer tainly they, and they have been told by various experts in the field, have world class displays down there. Since the Minister is sett ing his definition in the program as world class attractions, it isn't up to them to convince themselves, it is up to them to convince the Mi nister and this government that they are world class.

In that regard, If he so desired, he could let me know at his convenience when he's available, and I can cer tainly arrange to have a tour of that museum, which would be both educational and a very very rewarding afternoon he could spend at the museum in Morden. HON. J.

STOAIE: Wh at I had indi cated was, I recognized that, in the final analysis, the department and the eo-managers would have the ultimate decision of including or excluding the particular attraction the member was ref erring to from funding, but what I had indicated to him is that they have to make their own determ ination by virtue of the fact that they have access to the criteria. If they feel they meet the requirements, etc., then they should cer tainly apply. Wh en a decision Is reach ed, the results will be transmitted to them. I would also like to take the member up on his offer to tour the facility.

I don't think that a brief visit in the company of the honourable member would so sully my reputation that I wouldn't be able to recover. MA. D. ORCHARD: I'm worried about it though. I'm not worried about you; I'm worried about me . HON. J. STOAIE: I promise to make it brief. MA. CHAIRMAN: I am at a loss here, because there is a member who is prior in signification. You'd better agree among yourselves who should be first. MA. A. DAIEDGEA: I spent three days with him. I now have the priority over him. A MEMBER: I was here before you. MA. A. DAIEDGEA: You left. A MEMBER: Are you going to be very long? MA. A.

DAIEDGEA: No. A MEMBER: All right, carry on. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MA. A. DAIEDGEA: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to just pursue this program that has been touched on, Program 2 and Program 4, and go back to the first page in the brochure where it says: ". . . sports angling and wilderness adventures ... "lt seems as if this program is a very rich type of program. When we look at the minimum of $500,000 to qualify, how does the Min ister view this under the sports angling and wilderness adventure? For example, fishing lodges, when we're talking of attracting thousands of tourists.

I think the first impression probably will be to many people . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MA. CHAIRMAN: Order please. There is someone who has the floor. MA. A. DAIEDGEA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. He's always difficult to control. I'm just wondering how the Minister views this. Wh en we talk of fishing lodges, sports angling, we're talking basically of lodges. With a minimum of $500,000, we're going to be looking at a very select group of people that will be able to get Into this. The perception will be there by many of the operators to maybe improve their facilities, maybe expand on their facilities.

When we're looking at that minimum of $500,000, that to my mind creates concern. I don't know whether it creates any concern to the Mini ster's mind, but he is more aware of the lodge operators in this area than anybody else. Does he feel that is realist ic to put the sports angling in that category? HON. J. STOAIE: I recog nize the member's concern. I should say that Program 2 provides for expansion of facilities in the area of $1 50,000.00. Five- hundred­ thousand dollars, to the member and perhaps to myself, sounds like an exorbitant amount of mone y.

I do know that major expansions in lodges and accompanying cabins and so forth have ranged well beyond $15 0,000 in my own area. So if you're talking about developing a new project that is going to Include 10 or 15 cabins, you're certainly talking already in the area of $500,000.00. So while it sounds like a lot of money, In terms of what you can actually put up for $500,000, it's not that big of a project. MA. A.

DAIEDGEA: Is there any possibility - in the Program 4, it ind icates " ... clustered dev elopment ." Is there any possibility in your mind, the way you perceive the program, that a number of operators could combine on a joint type of effort in expanding their programs together to make use of it that way? HON. J. STOAIE: I certainly could foresee that happening where three or four people, who were lodge owners or had some experience, got together and decided to create the Falcon Lake Magic Resort, and combine their capital to encompass a number of different operators that that would be possible.

Providing that the overall investment was over the minimum required, I think it's possible. MA. A. DAIEDGEA: What I was sort of toying with, Mr. Minister, was four or five lodge operators could work out a joint program for, let's say, If they couldn't qualify under the $500,000 individu ally, work out a joint program for certain expansion and maybe for the buying of an aircraft to fly In, whatever the case may be. Is this what we're looking at to some degree? I'm just trying to see if there is any room for an expanded type of program, or whether this Is just a very rich program for a very select few. HON. J.

STOAIE: Certain ly, the aircraft costs, I don't think, would be considered part of the development cost, but what the member Is referr ing to Is fea sible. We're talking about a co-op vent ure of some kind. 1862

MendaJ, 13 ...,, 1811 I want to clear up this for the record. The cluster concept really does not refer so much to individual mem bers getting together on a project or a series of projects. lt refers to the idea that like a shopping mall -a shopping mall is a cluster development, where you'll have individual entrepreneurs who band together and create a des tination. St. Vital and Eaton Place and Unlc ity are cluster developments of retail trade entrepreneurs.

What we're looking for in the tourism industry is cluster development where an individual with a fun park, or that's maybe a poor example, an individual with a marina devel opment, condominium, an individual with some other kind of speclalty attraction locate in the same area.

The purpose of doing that Is to ensure that when a person thinks of Ma nitoba, thinks of a destination, that they have enough activities to interest them and to keep them in Manitoba for a longer period of time. it's difficult to attract tourists on a world class basis If there are single, albeit significant and spect acular events throughout the province. If there are a numb er of events, attractions, facilities clustered in an area, you stand a lot better chanca of pulling someone in and saying, well, we've got things to do for the rest of the week In this particular area.

So that's the kind of Idea that we're working on. The member's particular kind of project , I think, sounds to me like it should be possible and could be eligible for assistance providing that it fits In with the general destination areas that have been discussed, or one of the specialty market areas. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you. Well, for the Mini ster's sake, as well as I suppose for all Manitobans, I hope that this cadillac program is going to be beneficial.

The thing that concerns me a little bit, and I might as well Inform the member that I had the occasion to spend a number of days up In his area there and received a fair amount of information regarding tourism In that particular area and the possible lack of some incentives and I want to bring that to the Minister's attention. These kinds of programs might be fine, but the one thing that many people out In that area come forward with in suggestions Is training programs.

I think this Is something that we probably need desperately and badly, rather than when we talk of this kind of thing I suppose there Is room for that and I certainly encourage that as well. But the present operators that we have, I think there is a crying need to develop present lodges, to provide the kind of service maybe on a little smaller scale, maybe a more affordable scale for many of our tourists, the one thing I think is missing dramatically is the training program for operators, for staff, it's not on this program, I realize that. HON. J. STORIE: lt is in that program - Program Six. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Program Six? HON. J. STORIE: Ye s. I appreciate the member's comments, and I would say that I think he is tuned in very quickly in his travels to one of the persistent problems that have plagued the tourism industry in Manitoba and that Is the lack of training. I believe the figures are some thing like one in five of our personnel who are servicing the tourist Industry have any kind of training at all and by world class standards, that's not acce ptable.

Program Six, which I referred to, does provide that kind of assistance, both to the not-for-profit groups and for private Indu stry and there Is no specific maximum referred to so that Indus try people generally can take advantage of that particular program. The member is absolutely right when he suggests that we can only do so much In terms of providing facilities; that the facts are if we don't have the right perso nnel, if our personnel aren't train ed , if the personnel aren't pleasant and receptive, that all of our best Intentions in terms of capital Inves tment can go for not. MR. A. DRIEDGER: We ll, okay.

I have to apologize. I suppose I ha dn't checked that out close enoug h. But aside from that, even with this kind of a program, I can foresee maybe a little more difficulty.

I would hope that the Minister can, within his Department of Tourism, start promoting this kind of an idea with the lodge operators because, if we're going to be competitive, and by the Minister's own words on the radio today , he indicated that Manitoba has been lagging In the last while, and then I would encourage him to quit lagging and maybe get some of these programs motivated so that we get a fair share of the action that is out there, across the line specifically , because I know that Saskatchewan Is expending much more money for the attraction of tourism at this stage of the game.

Then, of course, the other problem that we have is that this gove rnment has not been that receptive to some of our neighbours to the south and has created an atmosphere that has not always been conducive to bringing them here. And, if the Min ister, instead of putting his head that way, I want to Indicate to him, I was there about three weeks ago and that's a major concern out there. Maybe he should travel out there and do some promoting as the Min ister of Tourism, more so. There Is a lot of - how should I say it? - PR that has to be done, especially in North Dakota.

There are a lot of people who love to come here and there are some raw wounds that I think have to be looked at. So these are imme diate things. What we're looking at is this kind of a major program, you know, it looks inviting enough, but there are things that we could do at the present time and that's why I'm hoping, or suggesting to the Minister that he can maybe work out some kind of a training program or give advice so that they can tie into Program Six under this one, and then Instead of telling us things are looking rosy, maybe more monies have to be expended to attract tourism.

This is a good chance where you don't have to invest that terribly much money to get a good return. it's Crown money. This is money that comes from outside of a province, and that is always - in my terms at least - the best money that you could have coming in here. So, with those comments, Mr. Chairman, I just want to, without being unduly critical of the Minister, indicate that he represe nts an area where tourism is possibly 1863

; a very good seco ndary industry to the one major industry in towns or communit ies that we have out there, and that this should be expanded constantly at a little faster rate than has been done because the people out there are desperately looking for other sources besides the major one-industry source, and I think that thing that lends itself most capably to that is tourism in this area - many beautiful lakes, many golden opportunities there, and I'm sure he must hear this If he gets out there once in a while, because I sure heard it when I was out there for a few days. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you.

I appreciate the plug for Flin Flon and the Trout Fes tival. lt means that I don't have to make it. Certainly I agree with the member. Tourism is an Important industry In that part of the province and other parts of Northern Manitoba, and I think that through the Destination Manitoba Program, a good number of the lodges did receive support and improvements have been made. I think this agreement follows up on the initial steps taken through Destination Mani toba in that it is recognized as certainly a specialty marketing area.

I know that many of the people involved in tourism in that part of the province, will be reviewing the programs under this new development agreement very care fully and in all likelihood taking advantage of it. I would say, just with ref erence to the member's comment about a cadillac program, certainly it is major In its scope. I don't think that we can call it cadillac.

I think what we're trying to do is to Invite those people with considerable sums of capital to get involved in tourism and show that there is a will on the part of the government, on the part of the industry and on the part of the organizations that support tourism, to promote ourselves in a little more aggressive way than we have In the past.

That's not to downplay the impact or the support that is offered by a lot of other small events, attractions, in other parts of Manitoba, but it is to say that if we're going to compete internationall y, if we're going to turn around, the - I forget what the term is now - travel deficit, we have to do much more In terms of creating an exciting and world class atmosphere in our resort areas. So we'll be working on that and I appreciate the member's comments about the direction.

In terms of the other issues he raised about the department's activities, in particular in reference to upgrading the standards, both over the last couple of years, the department has been working with industry organizations, groups like the Manitoba Lodge and Outfitters Association to develop and improve the standards. That is going on in an ongoing basis. We're looking at a review of the star rating system to make it more compatible with the rating systems in other jurisdictions. The member says, well, the government or the department should be doing more.

I take those comments seriously. it's true that we should be doing more. I think we have identified now with the major industry groups, those areas where we have to make a concerted effort to improve the standards and improve the quality of service that's offered . What's more interes ting, I think is, that not only are we initiating some of those activities but I think pretty well all people involved in the tourism industry have come to the conclusion that it's time that we collectively did something about those problems.

I think that bodes well for the future because obviously it's not my desire, nor the department's desire, to impose the upgrading of standards on people involved in the Industry. But I think by virtue of the fact that we have gone through a difficult period, we did have a tourism program. We have promoting tourism as an important part of the economy, we've come to the conclusion that anything that we can do to Improve our attractiveness is in the best interests of not only the Industry, individual entrepreneurs In the industry, but the province as a whole.

So I think that there is a very healthy co-operative atmosphere in the tourism industry at the present time, and we will certainly be capitalizing on that as we review the regulations and the standards that affect the industry. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Since the Minister is high on this working together and communication, I'm just wondering whether he is having good dialogue with the Minister of Natural Resources who's intent on designating a good portion of the province's wilderness parks and stuff of that nature, and I want to ask the Minister as well how he feels about the privatizing of provincial parks by the present administration under the Department of Natural Resources? Does he feel that will nece ssarily have an impact on the tourist business and the attitude of the people towards provincial parks? HON. J.

STORIE: We ll, I can only respond in general terms. The Minister of Natural Resources obviously can deal with the issue of contracting of campgrounds, etc., that has gone on for years. I will just say in general terms that there has to be a balance. One cannot dismiss out-of-hand the concern that individuals have with respect to the environment and the protection of world-class - (Interjection) - let me finish, and I'll deal with your comment later.

I don't think that you can dlmiss out-of-hand the concern that people have, the legitimate concern, for the protection of species and habitat that is of world significance. I think that we have a large enough province that we can combine the interests of all of the major groups interested In preservation of our resources and those who are interested in consumption of resources.

The Minister of Natural Resources and I, I think, have a very good working rela tionship and our departments are going to be working in a concerted way over the next couple of months to make sure that we can mutually benefit from the attractions that our natural resources offer us, and I don't expect there will be any major problems. I think there is room to accommodate the need and the desire for people to take advantage of our natural heritage, and at the same time there is every opportunity for us to preserve those aspects of our natural resources which are unique and important. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Mlnnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to make one or two comments on the new program. But before that there has been much 1864

comment, I'm sure, before I got in about Friendly Manitoba and the money being spent to attract our tourist visitors, especially American tourists, to the province and it see ms that all of these efforts can be shattered. I just finished reading the

article in the Winnip eg Sun from Monday about the Americans who come up here - 54 of them - to a dog show and arrived - with the tow-truck operators who were towing their cars away. Those people are going to go home with a terribly bad taste in their mouth as many many Americans did after the flag-burning episode. I just want to say that our efforts are being thwarted In so many ways that it see ms to be counter-productive.

Even the staff in our areas where hospitality is supposed to be foremost and I know there have been training sessions and conferences, but some thing has to be instilled in those people who are serving the tourist visitor. That takes very very little time and effort, and that's something that we don't seem to inherently have up here.

I don't know why, and I kind of agree with the way we promote Friendly Manitoba, and I'm not too sure if it's any more friendly than anywhere else, but the money being spent to attract those people here is just going to be absolutely thwarted and lost un less we can instill that feel ing of appreciation for the tourist dollar that we seem to be so desperately after, and so many more of them probably could be obtained with very little expense, with just a little common sense and courte sy. lt is just so evident to me when I leave here and go across the line to the south to see the different attitude in the people who provide that service to tourists.

But Mr. Chairman, I hope I didn't miss the point in the new program; If I did, maybe I can get it out of Hansard because I have been In and out. I'm wondering what's available for the small operator, the guy who wants to spend $15, 000 or $20,000, $25,000, to upgrade his facility. One particular case, in my particular area, there's no doubt that Riding Mountain National Park is a world-class attraction, but there's an aw ful lot of spinoff comes from visitors to that park.

They want to extend their visit and expand their areas another 20 or 30 mile s so they hit the sandy lake, the smaller lakes and the smaller recr eation communities that are abundant throughout that area. There seems to be nothing In any program that would assist someone In those areas from expanding their smaller operat ions. They're not the type that can go into .5 million or a .75 million expansion. What programs are In place to help those people upgrade their facilitie s and provide a service, and a very valuable serv ice, to the tourist at small expense? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, the member has raised a couple of very good questions and I would like a short recess to ponder them. MR. CHAIRMAN: There will be a short recess. RECESS MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee reconvenes. Mr. Min ister. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairpers on. The two problems that the member left me with, I have considered. The first question was with respect to the damage - I guess the word you might use - that can be done to the tourist generally by careless and thoughtless actions on the part of people generally .

I don't know what specific things the gove rnment, the Department of Business Development and Tourism, can do to prevent those things. The member I think has raised the concern that I have raised In my meetings with industry and interested individuals throughout the province.

There is no question that most Manitobans, those employed in the service industry, particularly, have a role to play in promoting Manitoba - that the tow truck operator, the gas service attendant, the waitress, the waiter and the person in the small grocery store can have a positive impact on the attitude that is left with visitors to the province. We have left the challenge, in part, we believe, with the industries themselves, with the tourism associations.

We believe it cert ainly is In all of our collective best interest to promote a tourist consideration program, so that we can promote the idea that we're all amb assadors tor the Pr ovince of Manitoba as individuals, and that anything we can do or do to make a visitor's stay more pleasant and more enjoyable is something that's worth doing. We have what we call an awareness campaign with TIAM, which is the Tourism Industry Association of Manitoba. lt's an A/V promotional piece and also a speakers' bureau which supports the concept of promoting tourism on an individual basis.

Those kinds of things, I think, have to be part of our heritage or our culture as a tourist province. lt's something that needs to become seco nd nature to Individuals, to smile and promote the idea of Friendly Manitoba and helpfuln ess towards our visitors. With respect to the question about the publicity, negative or otherwise, that surrounded past eve nts, we are still working In a very co-operative and satisfactory way with the governments of North Dakota and South Dakota and Saskatchewan in promoting something that is called the Heartland North America series.

A survey that was done by the department some time ago Ind icates there is no lingering Ill feelings on the part of North Dakotans with respect to Manitoba, that we are still viewed extremely posit ively . Certainly I was involved in the Minn eapolls blitz which took place in the latter part of April. We were In Minn eapolls. A numb er of Industry people were in Minneapolls, a number of private entrepreneurs, lodge and outfitters were in Minn eapolls and they, I think at least In conversat ions with me, seemed to indicate that they had a very positive response, a particularly positive response.

So I am not overly concerned with that particular problem. I think the inflammatory kinds of statements that were being made were politically motivated, and didn't reflect or don't reflect necess arily the attitude of the average midwestern northern states of America. MR. D. BLAKE: I think, Mr. Chairman, that's probably just the difference. The Americans, when we are down there visiting them, are very very careful in what they say to us; they say nice things that leave us coming away with a nice warm feeling such as they've done 1865

Monday, 13 May, 1985 with the Minister but that might not always be the case. I'm saying that's the attitude that we have to develop here. The Minister hasn't answered what assistance is going to be available for the small operator who only wants to spend a few thousand dollars on his operation. But before he gets to that, Mr. Chairman, if the Min ister, I think, can dialogue with his colleagues to some degree, there was a perfect example last year during the hunting season which is a pretty good boon to the tourist industry in a lot of areas.

The American hun ter, a lot of them are ordinary Manitobans such as ourselves that come up here and plan their holidays in advance and they got here last fall and found that they could only hunt in the morning; and with our fishing limits now, they're reduced in some of our lakes to three fish.

If you're going to travel 1,2 00, 1,5 00 mile s to catch three or four fish, it's really not too encoura ging. 1 know they can use barbless hooks and throw back and whatnot, but their resto cking programs and that down there, they can probably catch more fish down in Minnesota and North Dakota now than they can catch when they come up here because we've rest ricted them so severely. But there were thousands of - (Interject ion) - no, it's on the Garrison Lake Diversion for the edification of Mr. Scott.

Lake Sakakawea has probably got more pickerel in it now than we have up here, but I know he wouldn't be in favour of anything like that. There were dozens upon dozens of cancellations, Mr. Chairman, when the American hunters found out that they could only hunt in the mornings. I know several guides and camp operators or outfitters that just had a terrible time in trying to fill in the days. They took them out hunting in the morning, and they had to do a lot of fast talking to fill in the afternoon to keep those fellows a little bit happy for the four days or whatever they spent 1 ,000 bucks for.

So I think if the Minister would dialogue a little better with his colleagues and say, look, we're trying to promote one industry and you're killing it on us by some decisions that are maybe ill-thought-out or ill­ conceiv ed. HON. J. STORIE: If I can deal with the last question first, I am aware of the fact that there was some displacement and some ani mosity created because of the lateness of notice. I can assure you that the Minister of Natural Resources has that particular problem in hand, I believe. When you go a bit further and address the que stion of, how do you avoid that?

Or what do you do when the people in the field in Natural Resources are saying that this particular species or that particular species is in danger, when they recommend limiting the bag limit or the catch or the moose or the bear or whate ver, what do you do? Do you ignore it and say, well we can't disappoint our tourist friends? Or do you take a longer term view and say, well, can we really jeopardize this res ource? Again it's a question of balance. I believe there is some rationale to establishing bag limits and etc., for the harvest of game. I don't think we can avoid that.

The issue you're raising, quite rightly, is at what point is that decision made and how are people affected informed. I know that it did create some problems, and I know that the Min ister of Natural Resources will be revi ewing it. MR. D. BLAKE: If the birds aren't there, you're not going to deplete the species, but they can still hunt them. I did a lot of hunting last fall, but there were no ducks, but it was still fun going out. So you can still give them the benefit of going out to the great , wonderful outdoors with all the fresh air and abundance of lakes and fields and streams that we offer.

If the birds aren't there, they aren't going to get them, but they have the benefit and the enjoyment of going out at least with a gun in their hands and trying their luck. HON. J. STORIE: I presume you could carry that philosophy to its logical conclusion and say, well the people that were hunting the wood buffalo were just going out to see if they could get the last few remaining ones. lt creates - (Interjection) - no, I'm simply saying to the member, it creates that kind of problem. I recognize his point of view.

What I'm saying is that I'm no expert and, to my knowledge, neither is the current Minister of Natural Resources an expert on wildlife biology. What he does, I assume although I shouldn't presume to speak from him, is take the best advice he can get from his department. If they're indicating that there is some concern about jeopardizing the well-bei ng, the perpe tuation, whatever, of a species, that they make their recommendations and they're revie wed. I'll leave that at a problem of co-ordinating the final decision with the people who are affected.

The question you raised about what's in it for the little guy, I think two things. One, we have just come off a program called Dest ination Manitoba which, to my way of thinking, supported the little guy. I deliv ered grant payments from Destination Manitoba to at least half-a-dozen lodges in my area. - (Interjec tion) - I am aware of the fact that hundreds of support payments were made to the little guy out there involved in tourism. I think that Dest ination Manitoba had an important role to play in stabilizing our industry and improving it, improving the quality of the accommodations, etc.

But it doesn't address, to my way of thinking and to the thinking of the Federal Government, the larger question of what do we do to reverse the travel deficit that we have? lt doesn't do anything to address the quest ion of what major international kinds of attractions and events are going to be here to turn around our travel deficit situation? lt was the view, and I believe correctly so, of both levels of government that in order to be successful in terms of tourism traffic, we had to create destination points, we had to cluster our development and we had to create world class facilities.

We believe that the timing is right, that there are a good number of private investors out there who see tourism as a tremendously lucrative field, who are going to come forward and invest many mill ions of dollars in our dest ination areas, building on what we see as our tourism strength. I think that that's the correct direction to go. So, if that happens, if we have that vision and we go for it, if we get the kind of support we believe we are going to get from the private industry, from the tourism groups, we are going to create an atmosphere 1866

whereby the smaller tourism operator is bound to succeed. I think that if you had an opportunity to travel to Disney World or Disneyland or Science Place Canada, or any of the larger tourism attractions in the world, you will find hundreds of small entrepreneurs who have benefited by way of spinoff from those main attractions. If we can get tens of thousands or hund reds of thousands of people coming to an area, there is no question in my mind that the smaller entrepreneur is going to have many many opportunities to benefit indirectly from this particular investment.

I should correct the impression that the member left that no one in his constituency got any support. In fact, the Gateway Motel received some support, and the Vivian Motor Hotel, and these are all a matter of record . So ... MA. D. BLAKE: Vivian Motor Hotel is in Neepawa, but HON. J. STOAIE: Vivian's not in your constitue ncy. MA. D. BLAKE: . . Elkhorn Ranch did pretty well in Clear Lake. HON. J. STOAIE: Ye s. MA. D. BLAKE: . . . and the other lodges. HON. J. STOAIE: So, you know, I think that De stination Manitoba spread the support out across the province pretty evenly.

In terms of the small guy as well, the department assists In a very real way through consulting advice, feasibility assistance, all kinds of things - small people who are looking at establishing or expanding their tourism facilities. So there are opportunities for the small guy to get assistance. MA. D. BLAKE: I wonder if the Mini ster could tell me; has there been anything done to encourage or to promote in any way the "bed and breakfast" concept that is so popular In Europe. HON. J.

STOAIE: Ye s, I can tell the member that there are discussions under way with the Manitoba Farm Vacations Association to promote the idea of "bed and breakfast" accommodations. I think it's an idea whose time has come as people look for something interesting as an alternative to the standard fare at hotels and motels. lt's something that has certa inly been successful in other parts of the country and in particularly Europe. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MA. A. ADAM: Thank you. Yukon has a very large tourist industry. I guess tourism and mining was the two major industries in Yukon.

The mining has now gone down the drain pretty well because of weak markets. The tourism is still a very large industry in Yukon. The theme there is, of course, the Klondike Gold Rush. Everything seems to blend around the '98 Gold Rush. 1 was in the Yukon last year and I was able to observe some of the situations there. There are busloads and busloads of people coming in. As one busload leaves, another one comes in, and they all stop In at the hotels as they spend their money there. I made some inquiries because I know that we are trying to develop our tourist ind ustry here in Manitoba.

I found that a lot of them were passing through the Yukon going up to Alaska; there was a quite a numb er going there. Some of them got on board ship at Seattle, or somewhere u p the west coast of the United States, got off at Skagway, got on buses and then went up the Alaska Highway to Alaska, stopping off at Whitehorse in the Yukon. I found out that a lot of the hotels are owned by Americans, American people, and they own the travel agencies in the States.

They are able to keep their hotels filled constantly with having the travel agencies in the States owning the bus companies, probably, and the hotels, and owning the whole system . lt's vertical Integrat ion. We have the same problem with the use of the Port of Churchill where it should be a world class tourist attraction. Mr. Chairman, you see what's happening the heavy tourist trade going to the Yukon is because it's integ rated by the Americans themselves. Now there are a lot of spinoffs.

As I say, the same problem we have with the Port of Churchill, we're trying to develop more use for the grain shipment out of the Port of Churchill, but the facilities there are not owned by the grain trade. So they want to send their grain to their facilities whether it be at the head of the Lakes or Vancouver. So I am giving you the example of grain, as the tourists are used to go to Yukon. I know the members opposite want to make light of this, but that Is really what is happening.

I am wondering whether or not there are ways of developing that here, and whether there is that kind of tourism in Manitoba, such as there is In the Yukon, because I know that's what has happenening there. The tourist attractions are owned by Americans and they bring the Americans there to see that. That's what's happening. HON. J. STOAIE: The member's point is well taken. I can only say that, one, the department I think would support and has supported the efforts of Churchill and individuals in Churchill in developing world class attractions.

Churchill is one of the destination areas, or specialty market areas in the province that already has, I think, a world class reputation and there are great numb ers of tourists, particularly from outside of the country who perhaps more so than citizens of Manitoba, visit Churchill.

The possibility of extending the attractions from the Churchill area is some thing that we have explored from time to time with the Government of the Northwest Te rritories, and I would hope that through the new agreement that every advantage will be taken on behalf of individuals who recognize the attractiveness of the Churchill area to esta blish those drawing cards that will improve our tourist attraction, the numb er of tourists that have come to Manitoba. MA. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a X1) - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. 1867

Monday, 13 May, 1985 MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a couple of quest ions. Just regard ing Churchill, I would agree with the Minis ter that it has been going on for years; Via Rail has tours; there are American agents bringing tourists to Churchill and it is a world class now, and I guess the member didn't realize what has been happening. Mr. Chairman, I know this doesn't come under your jurisdiction, but roadside parks, has the Minister had any discussion with the Minister of Highways regarding roadside parks?

When you travel from here to Fargo or Grand Forks, you see some except ionally good rest areas for the traveller who is moving with his automobile, and has there been any discussion or any thought with the government between the Minister of Tourism and the Minister of High ways to expand those particular parks? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, there is a review of the current facilities, wayside parks, campground facilities under way between the two departments.

I can only say that, certainly from a tourism perspective, the more that you can offer by way of facilities and amenities for the tourist, the better off we will be, recog nizing at the same time that the Department of Natural Resources, as all departments, are looking at ways of stre amlining their costs and the decisions that are made with respect to the campgrounds and wayside parks is based on the volume of traffic.

Certainly those that are well used, that have a high occupancy rate are strategically located, have been maintained and those things have happened because of the interest of the department and the fact that they are on particularly well used, travelled corridors and because they have a high-utilization rate. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the member mentioned the Minneapolis Week or Days or whatever it was with the department to encourage tourism from Mlnneapolis. In a report, Minne sota vacation travel survey, dated January, 1985, by Strategic Planning and Dev elopment, a

summary of conclusions it says, "the Incidence of vacation pleasure travel by Minne sotan households - in general, travel rates have declined from 19 83. To Canada, has decreased 2. 1 percentage points," and it says, "the market share of Minnesota vacation pleasure trips to Canada has declined in 19 83 and in 19 84. To Manitoba , it has decreased 1. 2 percentage points." What does the Minister believe his week did down there? In other words, what increase does he expect or are they forecasting from the Minnesota area, Mlnneapolis area? HON. J.

STORIE: I don't know that there is any breakdown with respect to specific area. I do know that, and as I indicated in committee, we are anticipating a healthy increase in traffic, particularly overn ight traffic to Manitoba. I suppose we won't know what the results of the Minne apolis blitz have been until the tourist season is In effect over. I do know that I have talked to many of the people who attended with the Travel Manitoba staff, and indicated to me that it was the most successfu l, the most enjoyable, co-operative effort that they had been Involv ed in.

Certainly , if the attendance at the Festival Manitoba night that was held where tourism operators, tour package operators were invited, is any indication, there is a lot of interest in Manitoba. That, particularly - the tour packages - is an area where we feel that there Is much to be gained, and while it may not be reflected In the veh icle traffic between the two countries, it may be reflected in the dollars spent and the number of people who actually visit Manitoba. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: In the report, Highway No. 1 Su rvey, dated Februar y, 1985, Business Devel opment and Tourism, we had a 1. 2 increase of travellers, 1. 22 percent increase of travellers along Hig hway No. 1 in 1984 over 1983, and we had a decline of 2. 11 perce nt, nearly 3 percent traffic coming Into Manitoba along High way No . 1 from the west 19 84 ov er'83. Mr. Chairman, those are pretty depres sing figures. I used to say to the previous Minister of Tourism, how lucky can you be with His Holiness the Pope coming and Her Majesty the Queen being In Manitoba . . . A MEMBER: Blue Bombers winning the Grey Cup. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Ye s. I would say that from the East it would be mainly to see the Blue Bombers because there Is no football team in the western part of Ontario as there is a football team In Regina. You know, these figures, with all of the activity that was held in Manitoba in 1984, don't look encouraging. What plans do you have for any advertising in Nor thwestern Ontario and in Saskatchewan and Alberta? HON. J. STORIE: Well, first, I agree with the member that it's discouraging when you see those kinds of decreases.

If one were going to speculate, you would only have to suggest that the fairly dis mal economies of particularly Alberta and B. C. probably contribute to those low sta tistics. Over all, as I've indicated a number of times, we are anticipating an increase in tourist traffic to the province. We are in the upcoming advert ising season going to be targe ting marketing effort to Northern Ontario and I mentioned a couple of specific things that will be done In Northern Ontario. As far as Saskatchewan and Alberta, Saskatchewan will receive some attent ion, Alberta ·l ess so.

I'd indicated to an earlier question that we are co-operating with North Dakota and South Dakota and Saskatchewan to develop a hear tland North America campaign to attract people to the general prairie region, other than the general generic advert ising that we do, I can't say that anything specific is being done to im prove those statistics from the Alberta prospective. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, there's a little graph that I have carried with me for several years.

This graph shows that in 1974, a high point of visitors to Manitoba dropped drastically through to 19 78 and the expendit ures on tourism from 197 4 to 1978 dropped drastical ly. In 1978, expenditur es started to increase through to 198 1 and tourism, in 1978 through to 1981 went up continually. In 1982, we dropped just about out of sight. In 1982, we dropped from 3,000,000 total tourists in the province, 3,053,841 to 2,646,466. In 1983, we dropped again to a total of 2,382,000 and we 1888

Mencl•r. 13 .. ,. 1 .. dropped again In 1984, from 2,382,000 to 2,305,000, not quite as big a drop. In looking at the Estimates of the Department, it would seem that since 1982, there has been more money being spent and there will be more money spent this year. You'r e spending more money on tourism and yet, it's going down. Mr. Chairman, Saskatchewan Is picking up tourism just hands over fist; they're moving Into Saskatchewan. Our markets that were always ours are heading for Saskatchewan.

With your arrangements with Saskatchewan and North Dakota, do you expect to start to have tourism to come up again In this province, because it has dropped drastically since 19 81? As a matter of fact, it dropped drastically during the NDP years pre vious to that. HON. J. STOAIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, I would, in terms of the statistics - the review since 1974-75 that the member presented , I think it would be fair to say that those kinds of trends are evident In all provinces.

I know, In speaking to the Fed eral Min ister, he Ind icated that the trend over the last ten years has not been a trend that Is specific or unique to Manitoba, that it's a trend that has been experienced by all provinces. I can only Ind icate that we have increased our expenditures, not as fast certainly as other provinces, and the member referred to Saskatchewan and I think he's aware of the kinds of changes that have occurred In the tourism marketing budget of that province.

We are experiencing increases and successes in terms of the travel to Manitoba. lt may take us some time to get back to the halcyon days of 1970's when perso nal disposal income was at an all-time high; when gasoline was cheap and all the rest of it and cert ainly, it's a trend that we hope will continue. I should say, as well, that despite the spending that Saskatchewan has done, I don't believe that from speaking to staff, that there's any dramatic turnaround in their situation.

We have seen increases In the number of angling licenses and those two provinces, Saskatchewan and Manitoba, compete pretty extensively for the angling market. We have seen a pretty dramatic Increase. We have seen a 66 percent increase in the convention busine ss, year over year, that's coming to the province. So I think there's some positive signs. The member Is leaving the question open as to whether we should be providing more funds. I suppose that's a debatable Issue.

I think that what we have tried to do, and I' ve said it a number of times, is make our spending more productive, and we've done that by trying to come to grips with who our visitors are; why they come here; and where they come from; and then, targeting our advert ising.

We 've done that as well by promoting the idea that it is not only the government's responsibility; it's not only in the government's interest to pursue the tourist dollar; that there are so many splnoff benefits to the tourist dollar that the co-operative approach, using co-operative advert ising or other vehicles is the way to increase our effect on the International market and the Interprovincial market. So we're pursuing that with some vigor.

I can only tell the member that I appreciate the value of tourism and to the extent that I can, through meetings and my own efforts and the efforts of the department, will be promoting In a real way, the Province of Manitoba. All I can say Is that I hope the efforts are evident when we're here next year, or In succeeding years, and when we look at the statistics and see whether we've actually made an impact. If we continue to see the increase In tourists flowing Into Manitoba, then I will be happy - the larger the Increase, the greater my joy. MA. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I have one last question.

Has the Min ister had any Input as to what Is on the road maps produced by the Department of Highways, as far as having some pictures on the road maps that encourage tourists to go to different areas of the province - that Is a piece of literature that every person driving a car has in his car and uses. Quite frankly, I must admit, I had my own problems trying to get the road map having more tourist Information on it when we were government . I had a rather stubborn sort of Min ister of Hig hways; but quite frank ly, it Is even if there's an extra fold in lt, or something of that nature.

People open up the road map and they use it and I kno w the department had presented it on many occasions. I'd only ask, has the Minister had any success trying to get that road map having more tourist information on it? Secondly, has the Min ister had any success getting road maps printed by the Min ister of Highways, as we've been out of them for quite some time apparently? HON. J. STOAIE: Mr. Chairman, in terms of the access, I believe the Min ister of Highways responded to that question some time ago.

To the member's other question about co-opera tion, when I was appoi nted Min ister, I met with the communi cations staff and Travel Manitoba. That was one of my first concerns, that certainly the Department of Highways but not only the Department of Highways, the Department of Natural Resources, the Department of Culture, Recreation and Heritage all have an aspect of tourism to them.

As a matter of fact, the department met today with the Department of Highways to discuss a review of the possibility of Impr oving the quality and the attractiveness and the usefulness of the highways map as a vehicle to promote tourism. lt is certainly some thing that I think Is worthwhile. We've had a positive response from this Minis ter of Highways. I'm sure the previous Minister would have respo nded positively if he'd had just a few more months. However, the member's point is well taken.

I think it's time that we co-ordinated a lot of our literature that comes out from various departments to facilitate the travel and the Invest igation, the experiencing of Man itoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I know the Minister discussed the exchange rate the other day, and he ind icated that they have a recommended exchange rate. Could the Min ister Indicate what the rec ommended exchange rate in terms of relativity to the quoted exchange rate Is for American tourists In exchange of American money? 1889

Mond•J. 13 M8y, 1985 HON. J. STOAIE: Mr. Chairperson, the recommendation is go full value or more. That is also the recommendation of the Tourism Industry Association of Manitoba. We believe that there is - I think good business dictates that we offer that kind of value to attract and promote the province as a place that's receptive to visitors. MA. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, that's a very noble goal that the Minister of Tourism has but maybe, as his department and he were discussing with the Department of Highway and the Highways Minister today, he might, since tourism is a function of word of mouth in a lot of cases where people are either satisfied or dis satisfied and either recommend or don' t recommend a particular destination, the Department of Highways might be negating a lot of the efforts that this Minister has in promoting equal exchange or even higher, he indicates.

Because the Department of Highways in terms of charging for single trip permits to truckers who are travelling across Manitoba have certainly not been following the Minister of Tourism's exchange rate policy. They were as much as 15 cents to 20 cents below the going exchange rate, and a couple of Orders-in-Council had raised it. I don't believe they're today even close to the exchange rate, that is the fair exchange rate. Truckers are very congenial people and, when they're pleased with the treatment they get in an area, they tell people.

Likewise I'm sure, they have no hesitation when they get back to Minnesota or when they get back to North Dakota, South Dakota or in other parts of the states, they have less than friendly words for these Hig hways Department people that offer them maybe $1.25 exchange at the most - maybe it's down to $1.20 now - and certainly don't come anywhere close to what the Minister of Tourism is suggesting would be a recommended policy that the tourist industry follow. He might consider taking that matter up with his Mi nister of Highways.

Instead of making money on the exchange offered to single trip permits purchased by American truckers, they might come close to doing what the Minister says of offering a fair exchange rate. HON. J. STOAIE: I think the member makes a good point, something that if we as a department are going to be promoting fair exchange, then I think it only makes good sense to have that practice followed as closely as possible by other government departments. I will convey that concern to the Department of Hig hways. MA.

CHAIRMAN: 3.(a )( 1)- pass; 3. (a)(2)-pass; 3.(aX3)- pass. 3.( b)( 1) Canada-Manitoba Tourism Agreement, Salaries, 3.(bX2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MA. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to ask the Minister, first of all, has the program ended - and naturally the new program is taking over. But when did Destination officially end as far as gr ants were concerned, in March, 1984 or March, 1983? HON. J. STOAIE: March 31st. MA. F. JOHNSTON: March what? HON. J. STOAIE: March 31, 1985. lt was extended for a year. lt was originally intended to close at the 31st, 1984. MA.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MA. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, under the Canada­ Manitoba Tourism Agreement, Destination Manitoba, could the Minister indicate what improvements, what the nature of the development at the Thompson Ski Club was that, for the fiscal year 1983-84, they were given $133,500 grant? Could the Minister indicate what sort of tourism-related improvements were made at the Thompson Ski Club with that money? Also could he indicate whether tha