PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. Wednesday, March 23, 1977

March 23, 1977 Tape No. 1219 The House met at 3:00P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present, actually it is four petitions, Mr. Speaker, on the same s.ubj ect. One from the community of Greens Harbour, one from the community of New Harbour, and one from the community of Ropeall, and the fourth one from the community of Whiteway, in Trinity - Bay de Verde, signed by 713 voters, Mr.

Speaker, and the prayer of the petition reads as follows: NM- 1 "Whereas the road from Ne~-1 Harbour to Spaniard's Bay is one of the oldest access roads between Old Perlican and St. John' s;_. that .. i~ not. paved, and

whereas this road is continually being used to get to the western side of Conception Bay and in particular the Carbonear Hospital, and

whereas it is of great inconvenience to travel the Trinity Bay · Road to Heart's Content in order to cross the Heart's Content Barrens Road to get to the western side of Conception Bay and the Carbonear Hospital,and

whereas the traffic on the New Harbour to Spani~rd's Bay Road is as heavy as the traffic on the Heart's Content Barrens Road, we the undersigned citizens of the four communities-that I have mentioned-do hereby petition the government to upgrade and pave . the road between.

New Harbour and Spaniard's Bay." Sir, in speaking in support of this petition I would simply point out to the House, Sir, that this dirt road is only twelve miles long and at the present time for the people to travel from these four communit~es I have just mentioned, to Carbonear, there is a forty-five mile drive over the Barrens,and of course it is on pavement and it -~s q~He a different situation from the district that I first represented

March 23, 1977 Tape no. 1219 NH- 2 MR. ROWE: in this hon. House, Sir, but people are quite anxious,and the traffic is heavy on that old road which is in terrible condition and the people would like to have it upgraded and paved.

Sir, I might add .that with the building of the new mall in Carbonear it is anticipated that the traffic going both ways of course will increase over the next year or so and be - it is interesting to know as well, Sir, that when the Carbonear Hospital was built a promise was made by this present administration, the promise was made that once the Carbonear Hospital was completed, the people of these communities were ~remised that this particular road from New Harbour to Spa~iard's Bay would indeed be upgraded and paved.

Now I have been speaking with the gentleman who brought this petition into me and he spoke on behalf of ~~~ - 713 people and he says that the people who, signed this petition are all too aware of the financial circumstance of the Province at the present time and the possibility of this particular road not being on the top of the priority list for paving.

The petition calls for paving,however I would like to point out to the Minister of Transportation and Communications that the people will be deeply grateful if this road were just upgraded this coming year, substantially upgraded, with the hope that in the very near future, --.

March 23, 1977 Tape 1220 PK- 1 Mr. Rowe: and as soon as possible that the road be paved. But barring no pavement, Sir, the people strongly recommend and have asked me to ask in as powerful terms as I .can for the substahtial upgrading of that twelve mile

section of road. So, Sir, I give this petition signed by.713 people 100 per cent support, and I hope that the minister will see fit to speak to it because I have received some correspondence from the minister where he suggests that in the road building or the construction programme tnis year, there was some indication given that that particular stretch of road is not exactly at the top of the priority list as far -.as paving is concerned.

I would like fo:r:. the minister to give some indication whether he would undertake to at least ~u~~~anti~li u~~~ade· that road at least for this year, and have it strong enough for paving the following year, Sir. So I ask that this petition, Sir, be placed upon the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member from Harbour Grace. MR. H. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, L rise to support this petition.

I am sure if the hon. minister would look through his files he will find letters there from me concerning this road . that-links the ' . district of Harbour Grace,and as the petition requests it fullfils a need for that area from Trinity Bay side, but also , Sir, from the Conception Bay side. -~·lis .' is really an access re.ad to the Trans- Canada, and I did one time recall having a discussion with the present Minister of Finance on .the possibilities of getting DREE to go in on that road.

And not only that, Sir, but another thing that I would like to stress is that wholesalers from Conception Bay, that road is used quite a lot, quite a few teachers are teaching from Conception Bay drive across that road, and also the main thing is fish being trucked from Trinity Bay to the plants in Harbour Grace and in that area. Sir, I really do ask 't:he hon .--minister con-cerned, · as

March 23, 1977 Tape 1220 PK - 2 Mr. Young: requested by the hon. member from Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe), that every consideration be given to this road, and like he said if it is not paved at least could be widened, upgraded, and therefore, Sir, I support the petition wholeheartedly. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to give the hon. gentleman a hand, Sir, to try and get that road upgraded over there between Green's Harbour and New Harbour, H-opeall -and- Whiteaway. The hon. gentleman made a very strong case, si-r, for having that road upgraded.

And it is the first time to my recollection since I have been in this bon. House, Sir, that I beard an bon. gentleman be realistic enough, and reasonable enough to offer the minister a compromise. And I cannot see how the minister can refuse it, Mr. Speaker. · The hon. gentleman said ultimately the people would like to see that road upgraded, reconstructed and paved, but not all in the one year. They would be satisfied this year just to have it upgraded. And I think that is a pretty reasonable proposition. It is too bad, Sir, the Premier does not make the member from Harbour Grace (Mr.

Young) Minister of-Transportation, because then there is no doubt about it that this road then would not only be upgraded and reconstructed this year, but it probably would be paved also. But it is a very fair and reasonable request, Sir, and I hope that the minister will grant the prayer of the petition in the next fiscal year. 0 0 0 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member wishes to have leave to rever "t to petitions. Agreed? SOME RON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Fortune-Hermitage. MR. -l· WINSOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the Fire Department of St.

Jacques -Coombs Cove,representing the communities of Wreck Cove, Coombs Cove, Boxey, Mose Ambrose, English Harbour West, and St. Jacques. The prayer

March 23, 1977 Tape 1220 PK - 3 Mr. Winsor: of the petition• these people eXpress their 1'utter dissatisfaction in regards to the unwarranted so-called, telephone service rendered by the Canadian National Communications. Over the years we have experienced untold difficulty -in dialing long ·-· --- -. - . distances as well as local calls. Most of the difficulty in long distant dialing can be contributed to two factors, namely; poor and inefficient long distance lines, failure of operators ---· -to respond to calls' local dialing probleu!.$ . as"a result _ ot too many parties on the -same line, or failure of exchange

~.arch 2~, 19 77 Tape 1221 IB-1 PR. J. WINSOR: equipment in local areas. In light of the foregoing statements we are demanding improved services based on these main arguments! One, inefficiency of long distance dialing. Long distance charges are imposed fQr a call originating from St.

Jacques to Coomb's Cove and Red Cove or vise versa, a distance of some fifteen miles by road; Two,because of the inefficiency of long distance dialing over the short distance, we are hampered in the performance of our duties; Three, because of the multi party lines in some communities we are further hampered in responding to local calls; Four, considering the modern facilities provided in some not so stable communities, we feel we. are being discriminated against. _Therefore we are demanding that telephone services be upgraded immediatelyJ' In supporting this petition I must point out that their big problem is dialing long d~stance for a telephone call and you can just imagine when a house is afire and you have got to wait for the operato-r in Clarenville,possibly five · minutes ., it could be just too bad.

A bit too hot for you for one thing. And there are a number of party lines and people,as we all know,on party lines there is much to much chatter, needless some of .it. A.."'' HON • ME~ER : Would you give me the name of it? MR. J. WINSOR: The local improvement district of St. Jacques- Coomb's Cove. I realize that this falls within the purview of I two departments, Transportation and Communications and ¥unicipal Affairs. I feel quite sure that the Minister of Transportation and Communications is going to suggest that I contact my federal member.

But I point out to him that a couple of days ago, yesterday possibly,he pointed out that transportation was not all of his department,that communications took up a great deal of it. I would like him to remember that when he is answering to this petition and use his influence with the federal minister of communications and see if something cannot be done about it. I have experienced the same problem myself and I find it very frustrating and I am sure the

March 23, 1977 Tape 1221 IB-2 ¥F.. J. W'rnSOR: people who have signed this - it is signed by forty persons - AN RON • }~1-ABER: The CNT? ¥.R. J. WINSOR: That is the CNT. It is signed by forty persons, Your Honour, and I have much pleasure in supporting this petition. I ask that it be placed upon the table of the House and - referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of all the independent Liberals in this Province, Sir, and all the other people who have no particular party affiliation,it gives me great pleasure, Sir, to whole-heartedly support the petition presented by my bon. friend on behalf of his constituents in the local improvement district of St. Jacques-coomb's Cove. My hon. friend is aware, Mr. Speaker, . that this problem is not me.rely isolated to my hen. friend's district.

You can find similar situations aJl along the Southwest Coast,in my hon. friend's district from Hermitage and in the district of LaPoile, the district that I have the honour to represent in this hon. Rouse. It seem to me, Mr. Speaker - AN RON. MEMBER: And Burin-Placentia. MR. NEAP_Y: And Burin-Placentia. AN RON. MEM3ER: Northern Peninsula. MR. NEARY: Northern Peninsula. It seems to me, ~r.

Speaker, that when CNT~who are responsible for the t~lephone systems along the Southwest Coast, when they decided to put in telephones in a lot of communities they took the attitude that because the people had nothing before that they thought they could bring in obsolete systems and install them in the communities and the peopJe would be satisfied with them. Well Your Honour knows that only lasts for a limited period of time until the novelty wears off~and then people demand the same service that they have in every other part of this Province. !-'R. WINSOR: There should be no charge for these long distance calls.

MR. NEAP_Y: There should be no charge - I completely agree with my

~.arch 23, 1977 Tape 1221 IB-3 MF .• NEAP.Y: hon. friend-o .n these long distance .charges from ten to twelve miles away. I had the same problem by water calling from LaPoile to Grap.d Bruit • MR. J. WINSOR: There is no extended service there. MR. NEARY: And there is no extended service there. · They have to pay a long distan~e charge. And this is not good enough in this day and age, Mr. ~peaker, socking it to the poor people of this Provinee the way they are.

You know,I sometimes wonder if CNT should be in that business at all, if Newfoundlani Light and Power should not be forced to . c;arry out their franchise in this Province'- AN RON • MEMBER: That fs. Newfoundland Telephone. MR. NEARY: Newfoundland Telephone rather, to carry out their

March 23, 1977 Tape 1222 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: franchise in· this Province that has been given to -them by the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities, and provide a modern up-to-date telephone service in every community in this Province. Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to support the prayer of the petition and I hope that the hon.

Minister of Transportation and Communications will communicate the feelings of this House to his counterpart in Ottawa, so that something will not only be done for my bon. friend's community but will be done for every other suffering _community along the Southest Coast of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Burin-Placentia West. MR. P. CANNING: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support this . petition wholeheartedly because there are two or three settlements in., my district that are yet isolated, and in those settlements that is the service they have is CNT telephone.

All I can say about it is just a little bit better than nothing. If the sun is shining and it is a fine day, no cloud,you can possibly get through. But when the sky gets overcast or a little rain, a little· snow and you try to get through there you hear the most peculiar noises you would hear on anything. . I have made complaints directly to Canadian National time and time again, and they are going to do something about it; and that was ~ot yesterday,I have been at that for the past twenty years.

And there was a little additional improvement_, they have put in a few more phones, but the service is just ridiculous. Like I say,it is a little better than nothing. I have gone as high as three weeks trying to get through to the little town of Monkstown, three weeks trying day after day. It is a bit frustrating for me trying to get through to them, so you can imagine how frustrating it is for those people to get to the outside world. •I know it is federal. And there is definitely a need for improvement. Lives can be lost, if there is an accident or something people can

March 23, 1977 Tape 1222 PK - 2 Mr. Canning: be suffering for days, cannot get in touch with St. rrohn's to get a helicopter or a plane or any other means of transportation • .So I heartii. y ,·support the petition, Mr. Speaker, I do hope that the Provincial Minister of Transportation will get after Ottawa, and I wi!I have to admit that I have been after my friends the Liberals up there for almost twenty years, and darn little that · they have done about it. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member from St. George's. MRS. H. MACISAAC: Mr. Speaker, I would like to say a word in support of that petition too.

I too live in a-district where we have a small area, the little town of Gallants, whidi. iS -suffering- from the same problem. In Gallants there are, I believe, approximately thirty-five families, and the telephone system is anything but adequate. We have one private line in the town of Gallants, and we have a ten -_line- system, ten parties on the same line, and there is no possible way to get through to Gallants or for the people from Gallants to get_outside of the area.

They have on occasion had to leave Gallants and make a trip to Stephenville Crossing to get urgent phone calls through, because of the fact .there are ten people on one party line. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is CNT also? MRS. MACISAAC: This is CNT also. And there is only one private line in the whole community. There are thirty-five families who have requested private lines and who do not have any telephone connection whatever, they are not able to get a telephone. And, of course, they will not even put in an extra ten party line.

So I think that the service is definitely not adequate and not good enough for the people of Newfoundland. We certainly should not have to put up with that type of service in this day and age. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear: MRS. MACISAAC: I certainly hope the minister will make representation for what we want. Thank you.

March 23, 1977 Tape 1222 PK - 3 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the prayer of this petition. We have over recent weeks raised a number of petitions concerning the telephone service in the Province. And exactly as my colleagues have stated,we have in my district alone many communities which have had very poor telephone service, if any at all. I have the -community. of C~arlottetown which went ~ithout a telephone service, that is , ~ou would not call in or call out of the community from December 23 until February 1 this year.

If - - -you wished · to use a telephone for any emergency t one ha.d to snowmobile a distance of forty miles, -and :I state that snowmobiling a distance of forty miles to get the use of a telephone for emergency cases is not good enough in this day and age • .. •. . . . ---- ----

March 23, 1977 Tape no. 1223 Page 1 - mw Mr. Strachan. I also have many other communities who have fringe radio, that is radio on which you might as well be on CBC, because everyone else can listen to you. They listen into the conversations. In fact at one time we used to listen to the telephone service on the Labrador Coast which used to be the means of cummunication rather than the CBC news. I have known many cases.for instance,that I have flown 110 miles in order to make a private telephone call, that you could not have a private telephone call.

Now I must admit that the Newfoundland Telephone Company since they took over from Bell Telephone have improved the service. The system has improved., -especially North. They did spend ·--- -· a considerable amount of money, $1.2 million to put in a telephone system, and we are grateful for that. We feel we should have sufficient service, a service as good as the rest of the Province. But there are many other areas in my district, especially the small communities, the smaller communities up to a papulation of 100,which do nat have telephone service or if they do have it is extremely inadequate.

It is a service which often will be out for many, many davs. It is a service which works on the weather. If the service quits, if the service " ceases, then what happens is that, depending on weather, it can110t be repaired again- until the -- - .......:...-_. - - - --- - - -- - - - repair men get back in, if they are stuck by weather. And the weather can be dpwn from anything from twelve to twenty-one days at a time. And so we wait many, many days in order to be able to call home.

In fact,I remember when the new system did come on in North, - - -- -- I was in the House here,. the - -rir~f £i~~-I c~~-Td - ~y e;- _ ta.l:k to my wife directly. The first time was when I was in this House here that I could ever talk to my wife directly and converse without

March 23, 1977 Tape no. 1223 Page 2 - mw Mr. Strachan. anyone else hearing me. But we have real problems with the - - . telephone system~ and alt_hough_ ~ may give them a clap_ on_ the_ back for what they have done so far, I feel that they should not . increase the rates, and they certa~ly should pot do anything else until they can provide a service all across the Province, in all the communities , adequate service, a service which is as good as calling from here to Grand Falls or here to , Gander. S.OME HON. MEMBERS: Hear , hear! ~m. SPEAKER The han. member for Bellevue. HR.. CALLAl.~ : Mr.

Speaker, I cannot refrain from standing to support this peition presented by my friend and colleague. I represent a district, Mr. Speaker, which is the fifth largest in the Province, population-wise, and the second largest as far as the number of communities in each district. I think I would have to agree with the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) when he says that he rather doubts that CN should be in the telephone business at all. I have talked to gentlemen who work with CN who tell me that they think they will be out of jobs in a few years.

And some of them tell me that they are ashamed to let people see them going around with their coveralls on. The coveralls have the big CN on the back~as most people know.

The telephone system for,I would say, about half the district of Bellevue is served by CN, and I have had numerous occasions where I have tried to call constituents in Little Hearts Ease, Hodges Cove and North Harbour and Garden Cove and so on only to hear the operator in Clarenville sav, NC - no circuits - or on some occasions I have dialed directly Hodges Cove or Little Hearts Ease and somebody down on Random Island answers, Hickman's Harbour, down in the other member's district.

Harch 23, 1977 Tape no. 1223 Page 3 - mw Mr. Callan. I have heard some M.H.A. 's, Mr. Speaker, talk about conference calls where rather than making separate calls, they have asked the operator, 1'I want to make a conference call. I want to talk to four or five people at the one time~~ Some M.H.A. 's tell me they do this. Well I can tell this House that it is quite easy to make a conference call to an individual community, because as the member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) mentioned MR. STRACHAN: We make broadcast · ··calrs. MR.

CALLAN: - nine or ten people, six and seven and eight and nine and ten people on the same line is quite common. Mr. Speaker, I want to give another reason why I agree with the member for LaPoile when he thin~ that CN should not be into the business at all. Here is a unique situation. Coming up the district of Bellevue as far as Thornlea, CN has the telephone service there. Between Thornlea and Norman's Cove there is a gap of seven miles -not as the crow flies but as the car travels over the back roads and so on. ----- - - -------- - -----·-- - - ~ "" --- · ·---·--- 3369

Harch 23, 1977 Tape No. 1224 NM- 1 MR. CAL!..AJ.'l: But anyway in that seven mile gap -at Norman's Cove we have Newfoundland Telephone, at Thornlea we have CN - well, a couple of years back a gentleman got the idea that he was going to start a farm halfway between the two communities. and so he built a house and his two sons followed him there, and so you have a small community,in a sense, three homes there, three families. Mr.

Speaker, these people have tried on various occasions, they have tried CN and they have tried Newfoundland Telephone to get phones installed there in their homes, about three and a half miles from Thornlea in one direction and three and a half from Norman's Cove in the other. In order for one of these gentlemen to get a telephone it would cost them $1,800, because there is no line there,you see, one system ends here and another system ends in the other community. I contend that if there was one telephone company serving the whole Province we would not have this sort of a situation. In concluding my remarks,-Mr.

Speaker, I would say '--' ' - ' · that the only thing I can see good, and the only good word that I can speak on behalf of CN in this Province,is with regards to the Chief Operator in Gander. I am sure that every hon. member in the House has seen the Chief Operator advertising the new system that t~ey have in Gander, when you see this lady there, Bonnie Pritchett, who is the Chief Operator at Gander, and I would say personally speaking, that is the only good thing about the system. I say that, Mr.

Speaker, because that lady is my first cousin, as ·her mother was a Callan before marriage and she is also the first · cousin of the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) as her father is a Lush and of course she was a Lush before she married. AN HON. MEMBER: Now we know her. MR. CALLAN: From Ga~bo, Bonnie Pritchett from Gambo, that is

&rch 23 , 19 77 Tape No. 1224 NM- 2 MR. CALLAN: the only good thing that I can say about CN. I support the prayer of the petition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I listened attentively to the speakers on this petition. We seem to all get away from the petition that came from forty residents in the St. Jacques - Coomb's Cove area. But I guess the main reason is because the problem is common to many areas of the Province as the various speakers outlined.

And of course as minister responsible for communications~ and my predecessors in that same position~ we are quite a~a!e of the problems we have around the Province, in particularly the remote and rural areas of Newfoundland. ~ve have a rather unique situation.We have two carriers, telecommunications, telephone carriers, one being under the control of the provincial regulatory agency, in this case the Public Utilities Board of Commissioners,and the other being under the federal regulatory , ' agency, th~ CRTC, now called the Canadian Radio,Telephone, Telecommunications Commission. Last year, Mr.

Speaker, fully aware of the various problems people are having with both carriers, but I must say before I go any further I would like to commend one of the carriers for the substantial improvements they have brought about in Labrador. Only a couple of days ago I took

part in a ceremony which opened up a microwave system from L'Anse-au-Loup to Charlottetown, which will now provide adequate telephone systems to the Port Hope Simpson, Mary's Earbour, Fox Harbour, Char1ottetown area, on the Labrador Coast, and that is the second leg of a threeyear programme. The first was a microwave system from Goose to Nain, and that of course helped overcome some of the problems on the Labrador Coast. And now this sytem that went into operation

March 23, 1977 Tape No. 1224 NM - 3 MR. MORGAN: two days ago again is a substantial improvement to the communications systems on the Labrador Coast. And I commend them for their work they are doing and I wish them well in their future plans and developments. Now with regards to the CNT,there is one thing that I am concerned about~and this ~ill be brought forward at an upcoming meeting commencing next Fonday in Alberta, where the Federal Minister of Communications, the hon.

Madame Sauv~ and all my counterparts in the other provinces across the nation, will meet with her to discuss legislation only yesterday introduced in the House of Commons, new legislation with regards to communications. The only one minister who has refused to attend that meeting because he feels his province has a mandate to take over control of all aspects of communications, in this case the Minister responsible, the hon. Mr. O'Neil, I in the Province of Quebec.

He feels that his province has a mandate to -take over __ the control with regards to broadcasting systems, programming systems, and carriers and inter-connection systems in the Province of Quebec. Of course we feel as a Province that we can negotiate any differences we have with the federal level of government and of course the other nine provinces, or in this case eight provinces., feel the same ~vay. One of the things we will be discussing will be the role of the CRTC.

The CRTC can now control telephone companies, in this case,which are under federal control, Crown Corporations in this case, CN Telecommunications. And last year in 1976, Mr. Speaker, we being fully aware of the problems we have like those in St. Jacques - Coomb's Cove area, and over in the western part of the Province and _other parts of the Province, in the Burin Peninsula area and other -

March 23, 1977 Tape 1225 PK - 1 Mr. Morgan: areas ·of the Province, in the Bellevue area. last -year I invited the Federal Minister of Communications to come to Newfoundland and listen to our complaints and listen to oar policies, and we do have policies in the Department of Cammunications.provincially as to how we feel we can overcome the problems we have in communications.

So last year Madam Sauve came down with approximately fifteen or sixteen, I think, . officials of her department, came down and sat down with us and at that meeting there was an agreement made and signed that a major study be carried out into the telephone, tele- communications s~stems and broadcasting systems we have in the Province. As a result of that a major study was commenced, and the officials, the Director of Communications in my department is a very competent, able· individual,Dr.

Tom Grandy, accompanied by officials from DOC, The D~partment of Communications in Ottawa, and accompanied by officials, in each case, whichever area they were responsible, from the CNT and from Newfoundland Telephone Company. They travel.led ali. over the Province except they have not -- - .• ' - -- -- - -- - - ~ --· - covered Labrador which they intend to cover next week.

So by Easter we will have ·the study and survey fully , completed, and then a report compiled, and the purpose of the report of course is to define and to determine the problems we have in communications, both aspects, broadcasting, breadcasting reception and signals in remote areas of the Province,and telephone and telecommunications servicing to rural and remote areas. After the report is compiled, Mr. Speaker, it is then the intention to again sit down with Madam Sauve, the Federal Minister responsible,and to hopefully, and I repeat, hopefully, determine possible solutions. So, Mr.

Speaker, these problems that we have in communications, we are fully aware of them. We are hoping that the meetings in Alberta this week will help overcome some of the jurisdictional questions, and we hope that our upcoming meetings with the Feeeral Minister in the next ~Umber . of mont~e wlll be able

March 22, 1977 Tape 1225 PK- 2 Mr. Morgan: to find solutions to the problems we have around the Province in communications. MR •. SPEAKER: The hon. member t'rom Burgee-Bay d 'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I could not 1et the opportunity pass without just saying a brief word about telephone service, I hope not to• stray too far from the subject, except to draw attention to the particular problems in my own district just to support what has been said by my colleague from Fortune-Hermitage (Mr. J.

Winsor), and to make,I hope,an overall, a general point about telephone service, again witbout·getting into the specifices of communities, such -as Grey River, for example, which has had particular problems, and without at all being unkind to the Telephone - ·--Companies. - I- ams ure tiiey have a very difficult job to do. I nevertheless want to say that because of the monopoly situation which they have, and nobody can argue that, you cannot have two competing telephone lines ·I suppose, but the monopoly situation doe~ introduce some disadvantages.

The person in Grey River or any other community does not pay his bill right on time, they have a very swi~t recourse, the telephone people do, to cut off the servi"ce and then you have to pay to get your service reconnected, and you have to go through a lot of trouble and a lot of time.

But in those cases where a customer waits up to three wee~s, and I had the occasion recently in the case of Grey River where people had to wait three weeks 1 -it is somehow taken for granted that the telephone company can continue to collect from thos people just as though they had had service, and if that were any other branch of the retail market, obviously if you did not get the product 1ou would I not have to pay for it, if you did not get the service you would not have to pay for it. And I say in this particular respect, Mr.

Speaker, the monopoly situation in ·which these people find themselves is being taken undue advantage of by those companies, and equal parallel - ~ents could be made by the electric utility companies in that respect. It is a matter that I would commend to the

March 22, 1977 Tape 1225 PK- 3 Mr. Simmons: Minister of Consumer Affairs for some investigation. I am making the point , if he has not heard, that very often when a customer is without telephone service for an extended period, through no fault of his qwn, he is neverthe-less billed the s~ monthly rate, and

March 23,1977 Tape 1226 AH-1 MR. SlliMONS: . I believe that there is a principle involved there that might bear looking into. MR. MURPHY: It could be out for days, very poor service, yet you are expected to pay the thirty day bill? HR. SIMMONS: I just had nine persons in Gray River, nine parties out for 'three weeks. •• MR. MURPHY: I would appreciate to having the particular ones. MR. SIMMONS: Sure, I would be delighted to give them to the minister. MR.. MAYNARD: Down in Petite, in my district, they were out for a year. MR. SIMMONS:. _A year? MR. MAYNARD: A year. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, of course we had a couple of petitions · this afternoon • One from my colleague from - or four from my colleague in Trinity- Bay De _Verde about road conditions~ and one about telephone conditions, both of which affect the Department of Transportation and Communications. How touched we are that the minister rises to talk about communications. He elects not to talk ·-- about roads but he has his own good reasons,! suppose. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please! I must point out to the hon. gentleman that he is now getting into the area of debate. MR.. SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker, I am sorry.

I just meant to compliment a very hard working minister for being so intouched with the communications problem in this Province, a fellow we do not often praise~and I just want to say how touched we are that he is so in touch with th~ situation. A man who gets no thanks, no bouquets , no T.V. sets. Mr. Speaker, today he has really excelled himself and I hope he will display such interest in the road situation as he does in telephones. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate.

March 23, 1977 Tape 1226 MR. SMALLWOOD : Mr. Speaker, when the franchise was given originally to the first company that established the telephone system in St. John's and later throughout Newfoundland,there was a time limit placed on it and that time limit was reached and it expired. Now the legislation that gave that franchise provided that at the expiration of the franchise the Government of Newfoundland could take it over, could assume it. That date fell due while I was in office in thi& province,and for JM- 2 about a year before it fell due I was beseeched by two great organizations.

One was the CNT- Canadian National·Telegraphs­ and the other was the Bell Telephone Company,which was represented here at the time by a man named Thomas Fildes. He came every Sunday morning to my home on Roaches Line and would come up ~~ere and talk about everything under the sun and not mention telephone,but I knew why he was there. He had acquired financial control of the Avalon Telephone Company. He had a majority of the shares and was in absolute control of the company.

On the other hand,Donald Gordon wrote me and when he came to Newfoundland came to see me,and would sometimes telephone me urging that the CNT should be the one to take over the telephone company when their franchise expired. Now it was entirely up to the Government of Newfoundland to decide who should have it. Would Tomie Fildes be allowed to sell out,as he wanted to do,to Bell Telephone,or would the CNT and Donald Gordon be permitted to acquire the system?

We discussed it in Cabinet and came to the conclusion that it would be bad for Newfoundland if there was to be only . one telephone system in the province, that this would be a monopoly and although if it went to CNT it would be a publicly owned monopoly,and if there is to be a monopoly it ought not to be privately owned - better that it be publicly owned than any other kind of monopoly. Buowe felt that with a monopoly 3397

'~arch 23, 1977 Tape 1226 ~1R. S't.~LLWOOD : even the CNT, which had spent a good nany millions of dollars to imorove the Q~T telephone service in this Province, 3398 JM- 3

~farch 23, 1977 Tape no. 122 7 Page 1 - HS Hr. Smallwood. 'it. would be better for Newfoundland if we had a second, and so we agreed that they could selL out to Bell Telephone and Bell Telephone today are the owners of the company which is now knoWn, I believe, as Newfoundland Telephone Company, not Ava,lon ~:rymore . I believe that there has been the best part of a quarter of a billion dollars spent by CNT and Bell Telephone on improving the telep~one services in Newfoundland and Labrador. The comparison of today with ten, twenty years ago is just out of this world.

We have a system which is incomparably better than anything we ever had. But compared with, say, Nova Scotia or New Brunswick~or almost any other province of Canada,the service that we have is abominable. It is backward ( and inadequate and unsatisfactory in every way. But I think on the whole the decision we made uas the right one. At least we do now have two separate competing giants in the communications field .; MR. NEARY: They do not compete. MR. SMALLWOOD: They compete in two ways!

Number one, in the invention of new ~~vices, :Ln the improvement of the technological advances of the communications industry there is the fiercest possible competition between those two giants across Canada, Bell Telphone, I believe - I am almost certai~~being a giant subsidiary of an even bigger giant in the United States. The CNT is, of course, the Government of Canada. And these two giants have made giant advances in scientific development and improvement of communications.

And I think Newfoundland is benefiting from that degree of competition. _I, of course, obviously, needless to say, I agree completely with the prayer of the petition and I hope that - not that this government, not that the Government of Newfoundland can do very much about it - but that something will be done. 33S9

March 23, 1977 Tape no. 1227 Page 2 - MS MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: I wish to speak briefly to this petition now, Mr. Speaker, and support the petition. I can relate very easily to the p·roblems raised by my han. friend from Fortune on behalf of the people of St. Jacques. I have in my district a community, .Buchans Junction and Millertown - in the community of Buchans Junction, Mr. Speaker, there are roughly sixty families and the minimum I number of people on a party line is four, maximum six.

I have .. ~en in that community and tried to contact various households ., and have had to go visit door to door because there was just no way - if ·one member on that party line is using the phone the ~hole five phones are out. I think everybody understands that as academic. There are only two long distance circuits out of both communities, Mr. Speaker, and I have had to travel from Buchans Junction and Millertown, back ~o Buchans, a distance of around twenty-two miles,in order to make a long distance call.

Now having said that,I might also say that I have taken these problems up with CN and CN at this point have agreed to rem.edy the situation to the point they can. They are installing microwave to give those communities more long distance circuits. However, I can certainly appreciate the frustrations and r·certainly can relate to the problems that communities with five or six party lines systems are going through, and I believe the answer is for the minister to put pressure on CN to upgrade these facilities. I concur with the han. member for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir (Mr.

Simmons) when he indicates that any community that loses their service for an extended period of time should have that considered when they received their:t~lepho~~ bil+. And to the ~inister of Consumer Affairs I would say, Sir, that I have seen the community of Millertown without any telephone service at all for five days,

March 23, 1977 Tape no. 1227 Page 3 - ms Mr. Fli.ght. but that was not taken into consideration when the next bill came. And I think that the minister should talk to CN and have this problem rectified. Now having said that, Mr. Speaker, I want to make these other two points. I am not sure that I buy the theory that has been raised, that the CN should be out of the telephone business in Newfoundland. I submit, Mr. Speaker, that ------ -- ---~ ------

March 23, 1977 Tape 1228 PK - 1 Mr. Flight: ·if CN were not into the telephone business in Newfoundland; there are hundreds of communities in Newfoundland today that would not .have any telephone system ·at all, let alone a bad one. Any ' company whose motivation would be profit, I can think of a lot of communities that have a phone system aloeit - it may not be the best, they would probably have no service at all. And, Mr.

Speaker, speaking for myself, all I want to say is that I am not interested, and I suspect a lot of other people will not be interested in having another utility company get a complete monopoly in this Province, the type of monopoly that Newfoundland Light and Power has. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Lewisporte. MR. F. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to speak very much on this. I just want to make one point relevant to the discussions on the-petition presented by the member from Fortune-Hermitage (Mr. J. Winsor). Mr.

Speaker, we all have,as we have heard members say today,problems with the telephone service in all our areas, particularly those of us who live in rural Newfoundland. But I believe, Mr. S'peaker, that CNT are making a desperate attempt to fmprove the service in rural areas, aithough they are being delayed in some areas. Mr. Speaker, this past year CNT opened in Gander a $6 million toll centre that is the most mode~ in Canada, and it certainly compares favourably and it is far better than anything that Newfoundland Telephone Company has on the Avalon Peninsula. And- that is the point I want to make, Mr. Speaker.

I find it far easier dealing with CNT in the Central Newfoundland area in terms of service,getting through to the operator and all that kind of thing than I do with Newfoundland - Telephone Company in St. John's. trj'to get through to the operator at night and it is almost impossible;you have got to wait for eight and ten and twelve and fourteen and fifteen times, and I just want to make the point that I find CNT service in Central Newfoundland comparable or even

March 23, 1977 Tape l22R PK - 2 Mr. White: better than Newfoundland Tel in St. John's. Mi.. R. MOORES: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Terra Nova: MR. T. LUSH: I feel obligated, Mr. Speaker, just to utter a few phrases in support of t~is petition for the residents from St. Jacques and Coombs Cove. And I feel obligated to do so not insomuch as the CN is a telephone service which is supplying telephone service throughout my entire district, but there is one community that I want to mention in particular where telephone service is absolutely essentiaL-and that is of course the -island of St. Brendan's.

And, Mr. Speaker, I can suggest to you that the telephone service 0n that particular island is probably out 50 per cent of the time, and outside of the ferry service I would expect that is the most common complaint that I get is the telephone service to St. Brendan:'s. And it varies, - -~he kind of service they get, the adequacy of the service varies with the weather. I must say CN is very co-operative in coming in to try to correct the thing. But I am told no sooner have the people who come in to repair the thing left~and the thing ' is not working again. So it seems to be a large problem, Mr.

Speaker, and the quicker that we can get these services upgraded, . the quicker that CN can get these services upgraded to these communities .·- where particularly phone service is essential, and I would suggest to · you that St.Br~ndan'~ is - - - ~ - probably - it is most essential that we have an adequate service ta St. Brendan's where they only have, their only connection with the outside world is a -ferry link, and it is most important that they be able to communicate, to be able ~o reach areas outside in the case of emergency and other such cases.

So I have no hesistancy in supporting the prayer of this petition.

March 23, 19 77 Tape 1223 PK - 3 MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, like every member of the House~ my constituents have telephones, I suppose that in itself is a reason to support the petition, because none of us, Sir, is satisfied with the telephone service which we are getting. My friend from Fortune-Hermitage. (Mr. J.

Winsor) in presenting the petition in behalf of the people who live in these two communities along the Western side of Fortune Bay has, however, touched off a far more important debate than simply the question of getting telephone service improved to the people of St. Jacques and Coombs Cove, as important as that is.

I think we have seen as well that in almost every single constituency in this Province,certainly in the rural constituencies,there are difficulties with telephones, and I could second everything that has been said both in praise and in condemnation· of both Newfoundland Telephone Company and CNT because my district is served by both and it suffers with both. I think each of them is making an effort, and at times I get very angry.wheri-r-ao not·think they are making enough effort, but really that is not the point I want to make. The paint that '\ . ~· ... 'l_.4f1'4 " ......

MARCH 23. 1977 Tape 1229 Page 1. ~ .• FOBERTS: I w~~t -~? - ~~~~ is that I think it is incumbent uoon the minister of Transportation and Communications to lay forth a policy which sets forth certain basic standards of communication services that will be available to the people of thi.s province. No~, I know communications in the constitution are federal but, of course,telephones within the province are under provincial jurisdiction. AN .RON·. ~ER: What about CNT? MR.ROBERTS: ~o,the C.N.T. Mr. Speaker, are under the federal regulatory authorities simply,as I understand it,because they are a federal company.

If they were to be as Newfoundland Telephone Company,a provincial company, our ~ !~bli"c Utii:t.ties _ _ _ ~9a~~ · would have the jurisdiction. Furthermore I venture to say that

an Act of this House could make C.N.T. subject to provincial jurisdiction. It could. But be that as it may, I do not want of forcing these companies to do anything because I would rather try the carrot than the stick. I think what I would like to see~and . what I suggest to the minister, Sir, the time is come when we should have a defined standard a publicly defined standard of telephone- service, . one that will be available _as a matter of right to all the people of this province. Telephones are not only a great convenience now a necessity.

Instances have been given by my colleagues here of examples where that is so. I could give many other examples .: an.cr-so;--rs-uspect, couraevery - mem1ier--o:r-tn:e lfouse-:------ - - - --- - - --·----. ---· - .... - - -- --- - -- - - --- -- -· -, - -------- - - - - - -- - ----·- -- -· So~ what I say to the minister quite simply is this,he nas begun the work. I have had an hour of so with the minister's blessing with Dr. Grandy. I find him to be very bright man and a very dedicated and interested a~d -~h£ --·awar~ U:~~ -a:nd __ that_i~ - ~ goodthi~g. ~~ But let us now set forth the policy.

Let us set forth-the policy on extended · area service. ~fuy should people have to pay a long distance charge to telephone, say .)from Raleigh to Griquet ·, a mat"ter · --- of six or seven miles,simply because they happen to be in . 3405

~farch 23, 1977 Tape 1229 Page 2. MR.ROBERTS: different exchanges. Or in southern Labrador,where there are only 2500 people along fifty miles of road they are five or six long distance points. To call from Forteau to Lance au Clair, which is just over the hill~again it is a long distance charge. That is one question which should be resolved. Then there is the question of standards of service. Why are telephones out for days and weeks on end,and they are out? Are they unavoidably out? Can steps be taken to remedy it? There will always be problemso ~ ··Her·e "in St. John's there are problem!;.

Heavens krlows-.- Then finally --- . ··---- there is the question of· cost .. C.N.T. 1I gather,actually makes money. -rt is one of the few operations within the entire C.N.R system which breaks even or makes money on a genuine economic basis. The rest of the C.N.R operations,with the exception of the hotel~are hopelessly subsidized. They are costing millions of dollars a year --out it ·:cs another subject. But, why are telephones this way or do they have tc be this way? This too is a point, Sir. ~I.

Speaker, I think the prayer of the petition is a reasonable one and I think the minister whould his best efforts to see that it is granted. I am sure that he will do that.

Sir, I do not think th~t is enough.I think the real point of what has been said today,and I think it has been a very useful mini-debate, -tliereal- point -oi-;.h~t has · bee~s-;_ld- ·- -·---- -· . -- ... - - -- ~ . today is that the Government of this Province have a responsibility to define , the standards C:~ c~~nic~_~ ion_s _ t l!~Lo~_p_t;o_P.,l.~_h~ve a right to expect,and that they must define . them and they must then ensure those standards are met and I believe Sir, the Government of this Province has both the constitutional and the practical power to make that so.

Sir, I would say to the minister let us have the policyj _let us debate it_,___;f __ it .. n~eds to · be debated,and let us get down to the business of enforcing it. The people of this Province are entitled to better telephone service than they are getting now, -ft is up to the minister to try to get it for them. -- ---- - -L- ·- - - .

March 23, 1977 Tape 1229 Page 3. Ke.. HICK¥ .. AN: 1-!r. Speaker, if I may have a short "WOrd in support of this 'petition. -tt is undated but I believe I received a copy of that petition, if the hon. gentleman will nod, I did - sent to me in my capacity as Minister of Justi~e because of an association I have with the voluntary fire brigade of St. Jacques = Coombs Cove, who represent Wreck Cove and Boxey, Mose Ambrose and English Ha~bo~r West.

It is my recollection that I know I responded to their petitio .n and indicated the procedure that should be followed by them i.i:1 bringing to the attention of the CF..TC, the Federal Government regulatory bo~y,the procedures they should adopt in attempting to obtain an improvement fn services • The hon. . ~- ··-- &- ----·- ···-··-- ·- -·------ ··----- .. 1~---- ~--- --·· - 3407

~1arch 23, 1977. Tape 1230 RH- 1 MR. HICKMAN: member for Fortune Bay-Hermitage(Mr. J. Winsor) nods his head, because my recollection is I sent him a copy of the correspondence and also suggested that their federal member, the member of Parliament for Burin-Bura~~. his support should be solicited as he is a member of the Government of Canada. I have had no indication as to what kind of response Ottawa has given. My guess is that if the response had been favourable the han. gentleman from Fortune Bay-Hermitage (Mr. J. i-linsor) would not have bothered to present this petition to the han.

House with th~ request that it be forwarded to the appropriate governmental department or agency in Ottawa. There is one disadvantage I see, Mr. Speaker, in the operations of the C.N.T., __ Telecommunications~n Newfoundland and that is that they are subjected to the regulatory body known as the C.R.T.C.,which makes it rather difficult, expensive, virtually impossible for customers of Canadian ~ational Tele- communications to respond to applications for rate increases, or to seek orders from th~t board for an ~provement in service.

Now I do not know whether the C.R.T.C. have the same jurisdiction as the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities have over theirutillties within Newfoundland. But our board, the Newfoundland board on at least one occasion ordered the Newfoundland Telephone Company Limited,with respect to their operations on the Burin Pen~nsula, that they improve the service. Indeed they made an unprecedented order by ordering them to install the dial telephone system. But that was done after strong representation from the joint town and community councils of the Burin Peninsula in May of 1966 or thereabout.

Now, I am not sure that the C.R.T.C. have that authority. If they have not it is regrettable. If they have it, it is almost impossible for a group the size of the

Harch 23, 1977. Tape 1230 RH - 2 MR • HI CKMAl.'\1 : voluntary fire brigade of St.Jacques-Coombs Cove to go to Ottawa and appear before them. There is another procedure that is followed quite fre- quently,and I believe it is followed with the C.R.T.C. and it is different from our procedure, namely, that they simply file their tariffs and they give notice of their proposed tariffs. If anybody wants to object to the tariffs they can do so if they are lucky enough to find out about it.

Whereas our board advertises that an application has been made and it is up to the utility to come in and satisfy the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities in Newfoundland that they are entitled to a just and reasonable return- well they are by law - that ... . - . - they are entitled to a rate increase. This gives the consumer t?e right to object. The St. Jacques, Coombs Cove, Boxey area is an area that has had MR. NEARY: _ ~t is -~_!1_~-- ~irst time the hon. minister l>Tas right in his life. MR~-=-S}.f_ALLWOOD: - -Did ~ the minister hear · what was said about you in the House? MR.

HICKMAN: I heard it distinctly, · definitively~ My day has been made. I have never felt so proud in my· life. But if I can get back, Mr. Speaker, to S~ .Ja~q_UE;!~ -Coombs Cove and be allowed to proceed with the kind of silence that the han. gentleman from LaPoile(~rr. Neary) is so anxious to confer upon this Houser may I say that in my area, particularly in the Grand Bank area _we had a very strong and long association with all of the towns that are represented by this petition. ~Thilst we have certainly a modern service now on the Burin Peninsula,when we communicate with Boxey or Mose Ambrose or St.

Jacques we find that those on the receiving end are encountering some difficulty. I was referring, Mr. Speaker, to the operations of Canadian Telecommunications, National Telecommunications q dra~v this 3409

March 23, 1977. Tape 1230 RH - 3 MR. • HICI<HAN : House's attention to the obvious diminution of the services being offered by the CN telegraph in this Province. Indeed the nerve centre for the South Coast of Newfoundland was at Grand Bank. They had a large office that occupied one-third of the floor of the Federal Government building.

March 23, 1977 Tape No. 1231 NM- 1 MR. HICKMAN: todav there is not one - MR. NEARY: Are there any anywhere in the Province? MR. HICKM..L\N: I am not sure,but there certainly are not any on the South Coast. I presume there is some on Water Street in St. John's because I still see that they decorate their sign at Christmas time. At least, Mr. Speaker, if I may conclude, and in response to the suggestion that CN have closed down their telegraph offices, I certainly know they have done it on the South Coast.

They did it over the strongest objection of the residents of the-area and most assuredly if the service fo~telephones in St. Jacques is as bad as the telegraph service is on the South Coast today,then the petitioners most assuredly are entitled to rapid and sympathetic redress. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs. MR. MURPHY: Hr.

Speaker, I just stand for a moment or so to offer my sympathy,in the first instance,to these people who are subjected to such terrible service,and because my department has been mentioned by a couple of members.! would ·like if-any complaints arising from the telephone service would be brought to the attention of the department,, and I can assure these members that anything we can do in our power we will certainly do it. But we cannot do it just on hearsay.

There has got to be something from either a community, a group of people or from an individual that their service was cut off for eight or ten days~and as everybody is aware, n~~t to Light and Power if you like, telephone affects more consumers than anything else in the Province. So I would like to urge all members any complaints we would like to have them either here in St. John's, in our Grand Falls office, or Corner Brook office. We are available at any time to follow · any complaints.- MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. 34:11. _ _, _

March 23, 1977 Tape No. 1231 N!1 - 2 ~. HCDDER: I rise to-support the petition presented by my colleague from Fortune-Hermitage (~r. J. Winsor) and I would also like to say to the Hinister of Consumer Aff;irs that I certainly am pleased that he has said that because there are many, many telephone problems that come from my district and I have been taking them to the telephone company - MR.. MORGA.i.'l: Hr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. • SPEAKER : A point of order. I must hear the hon. minister. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, it is diff .icult hearing the hon. gentleman 0 I do not know if his mike is working or not. We cannot hear him over here. ~. SPEAKER: I would ask hon. members to bear in mind that some members are having difficulty hearing the hon. gentleman. ~. HODDER: The speaker is, on, Mr. Speaker. But anyhow, Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased about the minister's statement as I have been going to the telephone crimpany in -very many cases,and have not been getting the results that I think, or at least that I desire. But I would like to say something else about the telephone exchange in the district that I represent.

I think that there are approximately 3,000 people on the Port au Port Peninsula. And amongst that 3,000 people we·have three telephone exchanges. We have the Stephenville exchange, which reaches out on a certain po~tion of the Peninsula; we 'have the ,~ourds ·exchange and the Degras exchange. And I think it is one of the few p~aces where to call across the road you have to call long distance. And in almost every instance you are calling less than ten miles - anywhere over ten miles you are calling long distance, and it is all in this little group of 3,000 _ peoole. I think? Mr.

Speaker, that this is a travesty .of justice and I think that it should be looked into by the Transportation and Communications

?-tarch 23, 1977 Tape No. 1231 NM- 3 MR. HODDER: Department and representation should be made tQ the telephone companies,because when you have three exchanges amongst 3,000 people there has to be something wrong. And this is not a rich area and their long distance charges are very.large. For instance between the French communities of Mainland to Cape St. George,they are very close,these two co.mmunities,but yet they must phone long distance.

And some of the telephone bills that I have seen 1 that residents have shown me from each of these communities are very, very high indeed, and I think that something should be done about it in this case. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NOLAN: ORAL QUESTIONS: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. Mr. Speaker, I would like to address my question,if I may,to the Minister of Finance, and President of the Treasury Board. Perhaps he would be good enough to tell us if he or his officials have made any new offers to the workers. from the Wa~erford Hospital,and what is the current situation there?

Or are we_ now at a stalemate and the strike continues as it is of _today~ MR. SPEAKE&:· The hon. Minister of Finance. ~1Jt. DOODY: Mr-. Speaker, the government has made no new offers or overtures since I last reported to the House~! think on yesterday. This morning however I did have a discussion with Mr. Locking, · · - . 3413 ··-

March 23, 1977 Tape 1232 JM- 1 MR. DOODY: the chief negotiator and general manager o·f NAPE who has made a . counterpr~po_sal. This was around noon time today,and government has not qad an opportunity to examine it nor t~e~oard nor the administration nor the Department of Health. lve are encouraged by this move and ~.re hope that something positive will come from it. But as I say,it is much too early to be _abie to say exactly where we stand on the situation now. ·That is the first break that we have had to date. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary - the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, I guess better late than never. My supplementary grows out of the minister's ahswers, 'sir. Could he indicate to the House when we might expect some answer to be made with respect to this most recent proposal by Mr. Locking? I understand from what the minister said that first of all his officials in the bargaining unit must look at this to examine it,and then of course the poard of the hospital who operate the ho~ital,even if the government end up paying for it must examine it,and then the Cabinet themselves must look at it to consider it whether they approve it.

So that may· take a-little time,but can we expect an answer to ·be given today or tomorrow? I mean what I am really asking,! guess, Mr. Speaker, is is there any real hope that the union have now made apparently a significant co~~er~roposal based on what the minister says. Is there any ' real hope that we may see this matter moved to a resolution very quickly'? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. DOODY:·· - Yes, the hope is certainly there, Your Honour. There is no question that we all h~pe that we can bring this thing to a speedy conclusion.

As to the degree of significance of the counter- proposal~it would be premature for me to speculate on that. As I say,I can only announce to the House - that this has been .received 3414

Harch 23, 19 77 Tape 1232 JH - 2 MR. DOODY: and we are very grateful and happy to have it come in. We had a session with Mr. Locking this morning that was cordial and courteous and until such time as government gets an opportunity in conjunction with the board and the other interested parties to analyze and to siz.e up the offer, what the signifance of it is and what the implications are , it would be premature for me to put a date or time limit on it. I would hope that we should be in a position to respond ~thin a couple of days,but that is a hope. I hope it will be earlier than that and it may be later.

I cannot honestly say, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary~ MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask a question of the Minister of Justice in connection with the strike at the Waterford, Sir, and the situation at the Waterford where some weird things have happened in connection with the administration in the last few weeks. I Would the minister tell the House if the administration at the Waterford can ignore a court order that was given this morning to - I think it was this morning - to admit a patient to the hospital for examination?" If a union ignores a court order they are hauled into court.

What about · the administration at the Waterford who ignored this court order? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: The answer to the question from the hon. the member for LaPoile is nobody but nobody can ignore a court order and that includes the administrator for the hospital and the court - MR. NEARY: They did ignore the court order. MR. HICIQ-rAN: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, obviously hon. gentlemen are not aware of what transpired. MR. NEARY: Well, tell us. MR. HICKMAN: I am answering the -- MR. NEARY: Tell us · what transpired ·. ~415

March 23,1977 Tape 1232 JM- 3 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! HR. NEARY: \~ould the minister care to give us the - MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary? }fR. NEARY: Yes, Sir. Would the minister care to give us the circumstances surrounding this ignoring of the court order? Just what happened? Was it a mistake? Did the court make a mistake in the beginning in issuing the court order? Just precisely what happened? MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I most assuredly would not comment on whether the court makes or - on a decision of the ' court.

That would be highly improper and Your Honour would not permit me anyway. I understand,and I have to confess this .was not brought to my attention until noon or later .today,that yesterday apparently a person who had been remanded on previous occasion to another institution,that the Magistrates Court in St. John's had ordered him admitted for observation to the Waterford Hospital. Ther~ was by a person in the employ of the Waterford Hospital a refusal to admit this person on the grounds that hewas under the impression that the policy of the board was to admit no ·one and that therefore he could not accept him.

This morning this was brought to the attention of the court,and the court, as a judicial act without consultation with my department and without seeking . any crown - -··-- · -- --- counse1~rdered that the administrator show cause why the order was not carried out or be ___ c:i.ted --and the administrator appeared in court this afternoon and was told that the gentleman was to be admitted forthwith,and the gentleman has been admitted forthwith. That shows to ~e beyond all reasonable doubt 3416

March 23, 1977 Tape 1233 PK- 1 Mr. Hickman: - that our courts insist that all eourt orders in this Province are carried out without question. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER A supplementary. MR. NEARY: The suppl~entary is to the Minister of Finance, Sir.

Would the miniseer confirm that over a year and a half ago, or between a year and a year and a half ago,following the last round of negotiations with the Waterford workers that the minisc.er gaye a commitment in writing to the employees at the Waterford Hospital that their pension plan would be restructured before the contract expired? And what has the minister done about that? Have the government honoured that commitment, that obligation to the workers in there? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr.

Speaker~ as the hon. member from LaPoile is well aware I answered that same 'question in the House shortly after the beginning _ of the unfortuna~e strike at Waterford, and I quoted the operative clause from that particular letter, that was in a letter addressed to the unit dated July 7, 1975, and the operative clause to which the hon. member refers says, and I quote ~ Mr.

Speaker, "In particular government recognizes that justification for revised pension benefits exists for those employees of Waterford Hospital 2~ith a record of lengthly service comprised of constant involvement in the supervising and care of patients: At the same time,as I have already explained to the ·non. House, government together with the unit agreed to establish a commision ' of enquiry and mutually agreed that it be headed up by Mr.

Howard Dyer., w hom we had ~oped would resolve our mutual problem. ---- ­ Unfortunately,both f~om the uni~s po~t of view and from government's point of view,the report was anything but satisfactory in that it did not make the recommendations which both of us on our opposite 3417 --- - --

March 23, 1977 Tape 1233 PK - 2 Mr. Doody: sides of the fence would have hoped that it would have made. And subsequent to that in the beginning of negotiations this year government recognized the fact that a commitment had been made and I have quoted that commitment. And in particular,as I said,government recognizes that justification for revised pension benefits exist for those employees of Waterford with a cecord of lengthly service comprised of constant involvement in the supervising and care of patients.

And in line with that commitment and in honouring that commitment,an offer was made to the unit involving .some, I think, seventy patients with a revised pension plan, a restructured - AN HON. MEMBER: You mean employees. MR. DOODY: About seventy employees. I am sorry, I said patients, I am sorry. Seventy employees . were singled out because of their lengthly terms of service.

And it was suggested that these people who were employed at. the W~terford prior to 1960,when we recognized or agreed to recognize the·-fac-t that circumstances may have been different in there at that time,would indeed be Justifiably involved in the restructured pension plan. This offer wa~ not . acceptable to the unit, and subsequently the strike occurred.

Subsequent to that a further offer was made by government, by' the Board, lengthening the numbers of people involved, and I think the new offer was somewhere between eighty-five and ninety people of the unit, and there was also a change in the benefit portion of the plan. I think it was, the original offer,was o~_a five year average basis; the second one was on a three year average basis. This offer was also rejected by the unit,which of course is their right, and so the strike has dragged on. The move this morning by Mr. Locking is in effect a further revision of that particular pension plan.

Now whether or not itt is one that can be lived with is,as I have indicated to 341.8

March 23, 1977 Tape 1233 PK - 3 Mr. Doody: the House., has yet to be decided beeau5e- the government, the Board have not had an opportunity to analyze it, and to see what its implications are. But 3419

March 23, 1977. Tape 1234 RH- 1 MR. DOODY: in my opinion, Mr. Speaker, and I think in the opinion of all fair-minded people, at the time of the writing of the letter in July, we did recognize the fact that there were particular circumstances at Waterford particularly some years ago before imprQvements had been made - and I am not suggesting that the situation in there is any means perfect - but we recognize the fact that justification for revised pension benefits did exist for some of the employees in there. And we have been making efforts to honour that commitment ever since. MR..

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile followed by the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Would the minister indicate to the House,out of this eight-five or ninety employees that the minister referred to, that was a counter~offer made by the government with regard to being included in the new restructured pension plan, out of the eighty-five or ninety, how many were members of the bargaining unit and how many were administration? MR. SPEAKER: Tne hon. minister. MR.

DOODY: The first group that I have listed on the first offer, there were twenty-four people who were eligible for retirement immediately,and these people varied in title or classification from psychiatric nursing assistant supervisor to, and then there were fifteen psychiatric nursing assistants _!_~_I_, ____ __ · another psychiatric hursing assistant II, three psychiatric • r•• - - - ----; ~h~~a~y aide - II, another psychiatric therapy aid III and three --- more psychiatric nursing assistants III. So these twenty-four people would have been eligible to retire immediately of the seventy that I mentioned.

Of the balance I honestly do not know. I do not know how many of them were in the unit and how many of them were outside the . unit. As I said . in the beginning 'land as we mentioned in this House at many times, we referred and recognized 3420

Y..arch 23, 1977. Tape 1234 RH - 2 HR. DOODY: . that anomalies might exist in the offer and these might be the anomalies or some of them to which I referred and said',' Tole would be willing to sit down any time and discuss that~' And if there are some people in there in our offer who it was felt should not be in there, then that could be discussed. And if there were some people who should be added whom we inadvertently left out, then that could be discussed.

But we never did get down to that level of discussion because the unit has held out up to today for the Warder's pension plan for all those ••• '• - --- • ·- - · - • - -- · • • • T • • people with maximum patient contact. And so the question that .the hon. member has just asked ha~. _realJ_y __ n()t; surfaced on the table because we never did get down to that level of discussion, -~fort un a t ely~ MR. NEARY: Can you get the information? MR. DOODY: I can_= certainly try. MR. SPEAKER: · The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR.. ROBERTS: A supplementary 7 Mr. Speaker.

Could the minister tell us, first of all 7 what proportion of the employees at the ~aterford Hospital received contact pay-whatever its modern name is. I do not think that particular term is used anymore. And secondly, and I think this is getting close to the . essence of the question separating the union ~nd the government on this issue, why did the government draw the line at. 1960? The minister has said there were some changes. I have no doubt that he has .. something in mind · when he says that ·. But could he be a little more enlightening. What specifically were the changes?

I do not claim to be terribly familiar with the administration of the hospital, -but I was Minister of Health for a year or two, two or three years in fact,during which the hospital was be~ng directly administered by the department and thus under my direct ministerial 3421. -- -

Harch 23, 1977. Tape 1234 RH- 3 MR. ROBERTS: supervision. And I do not recall being told of any major changes which had occurred at that point. _ It would have to be a pretty important to justify a cut-off that in effect is the only issue in the strike as it now stands. The minister shakes his head in the negative. Of course, he will have the opportunity to correct me if I have gone astray. But my understanding is· that that is the major issue, that only the people before 1960 have been offered a revised pension plan. That is correct; MR. DOODY: 1965. MR.. ROBERTS : 1965 now. Again we have a deadline.

The people who have been there for the past twelve years, which is a fair length of service, Sir, more than almost any member of this House has ~-~~~<!L~elve years, those people who have been there for twelve years or less do not have access or will no.t be granted a new pension plan as matters now stand. So my question then would be why 1960, what for the changes, why the dividing line there and then subsequently wh¥ 1968 and' then going out of that is 1965, like the law of the Medes and the Persians,or can it too be changed? 3422

March 23, 1977 Tape No. 1235 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: That has been indicated. As I said the . 1960 figure was an arbitrary figure as · the 1965 fig~re was ~. ROBERTS: So there is no specific change in anything. MR. DOODY: There was no magic in that. As we have said to the.unit it could be 1958, it could be 1967, come in and shm-1 us where the differences are and what the difficulties are and identify the people who are involved and let us work it out and talk about it. MR. ROBERTS: Or 1977 it could be. MR. DOODY: That is a possibility that can be looked at.

But the position of the unit has been, '~e want the warder's pension plant." And we have said HR. NEARY: For all MR. DOODY: No, no, not for everybody. MR. ROBERTS: For all in contact. MR.. DOODY: For all the maximum, now that is important too, Not all the contact, to be absolutely fair to the unit. They . . are not demanding this pension plan for all the contact employees. But there are two levels of contact pay at the Waterford,Your Honour, there is a maximum level and a minimum level. There are two different levels at least. MR. ROBERTS: People get-:_ : MR.

DOODY: And those people, and I think there are about 290 involved and there are probably some people in the gallery who can correct me if I am wrong. There are about 290 people involved in the maximum contact pay area and those are ~he people who feel that they need and deserve the warder's pension. As for . the significant changes that have taken place in the hospital since the time that the hon. member was 3423

~.arch 23, 1977 Tape No. 1235 NM - 2 ~. DOODY: Minister of Health, I really cannot tell you. MR. ROBERTS: But there is no specific major change. MR. DOODY: No, I cannot - there is a new wing shortly to be opened ' - MR. ROBERTS: I planned it. Yes. 'MR. DOODY: Btit that is not opened. Part of it is in· operation but not significantly. MR. ROBERTS: If I might, Sir, a further supplementary. , HR. SPEAKER: A further supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: We are getting to the heart of the whole system as it now stands.

We are really talking about 29a people who are in contact- to use that, which is a term of art, a phrase of art in that sense - who are in contact with the patients who are in the maximum security wings and the patients who have difficult problems requiring, you know,requiring approp~ite treatment. Now let us be clear, Sir, that some of those patients in the old Justice wards,which th~k God will be removed and destroyed,I hope,when the new wing opens, those patients of course are in the Waterford Ho~pital because they are too dangerous to be handled by the warders. I mean that is the simple truth of it.

They are too dangerous for anybody - you know,for the penitentiary system to handle. Our penitentiary is a medium security institution at best. So we have these people who are pati.ents and we have the employees who must deal with them.

Why does the government not agree to allow the 290 people who are at the maximum contact level, that principle has been accepted, it is embodied in th~ pay plan, it is embodied in all the approaches over the years, there have been no changes,as the minister says, why then does not the government sfmply - say, --- - - - - "All right,for the 290 people who are- in maximum security work and have to_deal with people under these conditions, patients with this kind of problem ,we will go along ~<Tith it." Is it simply a question of cost? Because it ~v.Lll cost more money obviously. 3424

}farch 23, 1977 Tape No. 1235 NM- 3 MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Unfortunately, Sir, in the Province of Newfoundland, I guess in most places, particularly in the Province of Newfoundland the cost has got to be a major fact in any situation. And one of the major difficulties, one of the major dilemmas that we are involved in, are situated, find ourselves in with the situation at Waterford is -and if I may briefly run back over the contact situation, or the contact pay situation, the people at Waterford some years ago made an excellent case for the reasons that the bon.

Leader of the Opposition has just pointed out, an excellent case that there are certain members of the staff, certain employees who deserved special consideration b~cause of special circumstances and this was argued long ?Ud hard and eventually the contact pay system came into being. MR. ROBERTS : MR. DOODY: on the scene. MR. ROBERTS: MR. DOODY: MR.. ROBERTS : Early sixties,was it not? I cannot honestly say; it was before my arrival Dr. Jim McGrath was minister. God rest his soul. A good man. A better minister than we have got now. The minister of Health, not l:he Minister of Finance. MR.

DOODY: No, I just wanted to wait for you to finish because this is very important. MR. NEARY: Carry on,boy. Carry on. · MR. DOODY: The contact pay principle was established at that time and it was established for those people. Subsequently it was discovered that there were people who also worked at the Waterford who perhaps while not in that maximum position were also in their opinion entitled to some extra consideration. And so they in eff~ct- b-argained sucessfully and obtained a contact pay level,lower than the first,admittedly, ~425

March 23, 1977 Tape 1236 JM - 1 MR. DOODY: but a subsequent contact pay. Eventually the people at Exon House and the people at the Children's Home came in with a good case to say that the.irs was a special situation and that they deserved a special pay. In their case it was not necessarily a contact allowances, I think it was called an environment allowance. But in any event it was a spread situation. We got into the recent round of negotiations not so long ago when the Boys Home and the Girls Home and the Hoyles Home and various others asked for the same consideration.

They needed extra pay because of extra circumstan~s,and so one of the purposes and· original purposes of the Dyer· Report~as those people on the negotiating committee who met with us last year then drafted up the letter and drafted up the terms of reference for the Dyer Report,was to try to find some precedent, some thing •• that we could hang our hats on and say,This is indeed a special situation and there is no way for it to spread to all the units, all the institutions, all the hospitals around the province the psychiatric unit at the Gra~e or the outpatients at the General!' I do not mean to cotirpare the Waterford ·to these situations,but there are people who work in both institutions who have very similar jobs,although there are people who work at the Waterford who have different jobs.

So we had hoped that the Dyer Report would be able to demonstrate by looking at statistics from other provinces and other parts of Canada, other hospitals in the province,that this special case could be made. Unfortunately as I said earlier, Sir, that did not happen. Subsequently to that we ourselves have contacted twelve hospitals in Canada - the Hillsboro Hospital in Prince Edward Island, the Nova Scotia Hospital in Dartmouth, the Provincial Hospital in St. John, New Brunswick, the Provincial Hospital in Campbellfori,, New Br1.mswick, the London 2426 ::

March 23, 1977 Tape 1236 JM- 2 MR. DOODY: Psychiatric Hospital in Ontario, the Queenstreet Mental Health Centre in Ontario, the Lakeshore Psychiatric Hospital in Ontario, the Hamilton Psychiatric Centre in Ontario, the Selkirk Mental Health Centre in Manitoba, the Brandon Mental Health Hospital in Manitoba, the Alberta Hospital in Edmon~on, Alberta and the Saskatchelqan Hospital in Saskatchewan.

We also got information from the Oakridge Hospital in Ontario and this institution, Sir, was specifically established for the housing and treatment of the criminally insane and all patients have been as-sessed : as unfit to stand trial or have been found not , guilty by reason of insanity. The data obtained from•this hospital I have here as well. So out of the twelve hospitals - I will not go through the whole do.cument - but the significant thing is that in Prince Edward Island at the hospital there are no special pension provisions. In Nova Scotia they tell us that there are no special pension provisions.

In New Brunswick there are no other special provisions related to pensions or allowances. In Ontario,and I include here that Oakridge Hospita~ where ~mentioned --- specifically there are no special pension provisions. _In Manitoba there are no special allowances or pensions for those working on the Attorney General wards. In Alberta there are no special pension provisions applied. In Saskatchewan there is no special allowance or special pension provisions for employees working with criminal patients~ , So o~r attempts in that area to try to find a precedent and try to ease us out of our .dilemma have collapsed.

Now- ad~ttedly, Sir, I do not know the conditions in all these hospitals. I have not seen them. I have not been in them. I do not know. Some of them may be Cadillacs, some of them may be 1927 Volkswagens. I honestly cannot say. I can only go by the information that I have avaiLable to me at the present time and that information is the cause of part of the conundrum that

~.arch 23, 1977 Tape 1236 .]}1 - 3 MR. DOODY: government finds itself in. It is trying to find a ·way to recognize the fact that there are some people at Waterford who are deserving of special benefits, special attention and trying to do it in a way that will not be a spiraling, pyramiding sort of situation that will cost successive administrations or the government of the Province in future years astronomical sums of money which the province may not be able to afford. dilemma in which we find ourselves right now. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. AN EON • MEMBElt: No principal has emerged yet. MR.

DOODY: No principal has emerged yet. That is the C!P~AIN WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I do not want to divert the attention of the House away from the Waterford Hospital, Sir. I am sure other members can come back to this question if time permits. But I do have a question for the hon. Minister of Transportation and Conununications. Is the ~ 3428 ,

Y.arch 23, 1977. Tape 1237 RH - 1 CAPT • \ITNSOR: minister a~vare that the students who have to travel on the gravel roads on Fogo Island have refused to travel in the school buses because of the poor gr~vel road conditions on the Island? HR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. l·ffi. J. HORG.AJ.'f : Mr. Speaker, no I am not. If there are any problems with the roads I would anticipate that the gravel roads throughout the Province- in fact this time of the year we are going to have problems, particularly with the Spring thaw..

Well if the problems are of a nature where .the, either the school bus operator or the parents of the school children using that s~hoo~ bus, if the roads of the nature to warrant action on the part of keeping children out of school, I would strongly suggest that they contact my office or the officials of my office and inform me accordingly. CAPT • WINSOR : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. member for Fogo. CAPT. WINSOR: Is the minister aware that the :grader qn the Island has been broken down for several days ·and· weeks? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. }ffi. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I am aware that we have had problems with the equipment on Fogo Island .as we have had in ~ny _ ~_ ther p~rts throughout the Province · ~his Spri~g -~nd Winter, and_ mainly because of the fact that some of the equipment is in need of- be i ng repla~e~ with new equipment. Unfortunately budget restraints do not allow enough funds yearly to purchase all the required equipment. Last year we purchased $4 million worth of new equipment and this year~hopefully 7 another "X" number of million dollars as well for the same purpose. But in the case of Fogo,because ~t is an . 3429

Harch 23, 1977. Tape 1237 RH- 2 MR. MORGA.L~: Island and there is the problem of getting parts over there, I can assure the han. gentleman I will look at the matter myself personally this afternoon. MR.. SPEAKER: The han. member for Conception Bay South followed by the han. member for LaPoile. 'HR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Health whom 'tve have not heard too much from on the strike.

Would the Hinister of Health be kind enough to tell us if the menu now being served in the Waterford Hospital to those who are on emergency work, the policemen and all the rest will be the same diet and menu that will be served to these employees here when they return to work? MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. HON. R. COLLINS': Mr. Speaker, I do not make up the diet at the hospital. But I can tell the han. memBer that whatever food is served at the hospital at the present time - MR. NOLAN: Steaks and shrimp. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ MR..

COLLINS : - to the police or anyone else who is in there, this question arose before 3 everybody in the hospital are eating a similar diet. MR. ROBERTS: ~rr. Speaker, a supplementary. ~~. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the Leader of the Opposition fottowea _b_y the han. member for LaPoile._ MR.ROBERTS: lvell I would simply ask if the Minister of Health will get from the board the information as to how much additional is being - because I understand outside caterers are bringing in unusually attractive meals. I do not begrudge anybody a meal, But it seems to me what is chalk for one should not be cheese for another.

Will the minister undertake to find out how much .:

March 23, 1977. Tape 1237 RH- 3 MR. ROBERTS: extra it is costing the Treasury of this Province to provide this kind of somewhat generous fare to the people vmo are working in the hospital while the lawful strike is on? . MR. __ MORGAN: You have got to eat. MR. NOLAN: Yes, you have got to eat but not the way they are eating. MR. ROBERTS: Eat the same grub they do. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I just want to broaden the question that was asked by the member for Conception Bay _So_uth(11r.

Nolan) a little bit and ask the:}~nister of Finance, Sir, the President of the Treasury Board, the caretaker of the public Treasury> if the minister has had his officials make a cost study analysis since the strike started at the Waterford to see what the cost per employee is now as compared to what it was before the strike took place, in view of all the overtime, the luxurious hotel accommodations that are being provided for people brought in, strike breakers, strike breakers MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Order, please! · I think the gist of the han. gentleman's question is now evident and since the time is getting very short I would want to give the han. .: minister time to reply. The han. minister. MR. DOODY: I cannot really reply, Sir, because to do so would be to acknowledge the fact that luxurious accommodatiQns are being_ provided and all this sort of thing and I just cannot accept that because I do not know that it is true.

I~o-not want to detract from the ;han. ma~ber's very colourful rhetoric and his very descriptive phraseology 1 but I would like him to be reasonably accurai.~ ___ wh~n he is asking these questions because I know they are of_imyor~an~e to a great many people. The answer is the 3431.

, March 23, 1977. Tape 1237 RH - 4 MR. DOODY: same answer that I gave an hon. mem])er opposite either yesterday or the day before yesterday, is that no, we have not had an opportunity to de) any cost analysis on it. OR.DERS OF THE DAY: MR.. SPEAKER: It being Private Members' Day proceed. to the adjourned debate on motil)n (1) adjourned by the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It has been a fortnight since this debate was called in the House and a great deal has happened in the for~gg~_ • . 3432

March 23, 19 77 Tape 1238 PK - 1 Mr. Roberts: we·have had all the controversy about the sealing industry, and we have had all the discussion about the Scrivener thing, and all the other matters which come before the Hause. So perhaps I could be permitted in the approximately forty minutes which I understand are left to me, to refer briefly to that which .I have already said.

The point which I made in my interrupted speech, the point which I made some fortnight or so ago was that,in my opinion, and I think I speak for a lot of people in this Province, and I know I speak for a lot of people throughout the Labrador portion of this Province that, in my opinion, - SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. NOLAN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS) : A poin·t of order. MR. NOLAN: That is why I have risen, I mean the hon. Leader of the Opposition is attempting to bring out a few points in this debate on the Labrador situation and so on, and I submit with respect, Mr.

Speaker, that members on both sides of this House cannot --=-- hear what he is saying at this moment. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! Will hon •. member~ pay attention accordingly. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It was not hoB. gentlemen in the Chamber who were causing the noise, if in fact . it was hon. gentlemen who were causing the noise, it was members who are outside the precincts of the House) or outside the'·House but within the precincts, and also the people in the lobbies, and I guess they want to talk to each other, and nobody has any right to complain about .that, but it is distracting and the result is that either ones words are unheard, . ~hich--at t.imes -I realize might be _of advantage to all concerned or one ends up, you know, speaking in a very loud voice and that does not help anyway.

The Minister of Justice is listening, and I hope whatever he is chewing is attractive.

March 23, 1977 Tape 1238 PK- 2 MR. NOLAN: Chewing his cud. MR. ROBERTS: I did not say that. MR. NOLAN: No. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, whatever the Hinister of Justice is chewing is giving his dental facilities, be they natural, dentist supplied or denturists supplied a geod work .out. MR. LUNDRIGAN: The hon. member is very irrelevant. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I would think taking a good bite out of the Minister of Justice would be very relevant to the state of things and.the state of affairs in Labrador these days.

All hon. gentlemen opposite, Sir, obviou&ly havin~ a late lunch or any early dinner as the case may be. The Minister from Grand Falls for- once, Sir, is working his jaws to some affect instead of usually as he is in this House when he talks. -- . - - - . -- - .. -MR. LUNDRIGAN: ¥orget _the _pl~asantries now. MR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Speaker~ ------- .. --·- .... - - --- -- ·- ---- MR. LUNDRIGAN: FoJ:"Ret it. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if the:·hon. gentleman from Grand Falls is ready I would like to proceed. MR. LUNDRIGAN: · ·- -----Commence! Forget the political overtones. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, earlier in this session we developed - Your Honour developed a decision with a tit for a tat rule, and the tit for ta~ruie-:- -- · - - - - - -- --~- --- -- - - - - ---- ·- -_Why_ did ·y.-o"U_ilo.t tit __ yesterday1 MR. LUNDRIGAN: MR. ROBERTS: , - the tit for tat- ruiesays- that if };on. gentlemen opposite chose to be tit, we on this side may be tat. The Minister of Justice shakes his head, shakes his head • MR. HICKMAN: For the eludication of the hon. member, Mr.

Speaker, in his Chair recently said that he felt it incumbent · upon him, and this was without any point of order raised, but points of order had been raised fro~ t;ime to_ time, and apparently there was some confusion as to the ruling, and Mr. Speaker has ruled that there is no such thing.as a tit for a tat rule in this House, and he will not tolerate it. -------- -- - ·- .:

March 23, 1977 Tape 1238 PK - 3 MR. RelBERTS : Well, Mr. Speaker - MR. HICKMAN: And that is the fina i ruling of the Chai r and he made it very definitive, went into it in the greatest detail as Your Honour wili recall, · MR. NEARY: He was on a ministerial statement. MR. ROBERTS: Was he? MR. NOLAN: No, no! MR. HICKMAN: No, no it was not a ministerial -it was dur.ing the debate.My colleague who looks so young in the last two or three days, the Opposition House Leader will recall that he and I were very pleased that for once and for all the tit for tat rule had been laid to rest, buried, gone, dead. MR.

ROBERTS : But, Mr. Speaker, I apologize if I have inadvertently transgressed the rule ~ I was in the Chamber when the. tit for ,tat ~le was developed in colloquial between the gentleman from Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) and myself, aided and abetted by the gentleman from Grand Falls (Mr. Landrigan) and myself, but if subsequently the Chair . in -i~s : wisdom has seen fit not to reconsider the rule, · but to expand upon it by saying that the rule that was a rule is no longer a rule, then sobeit.

But the point nonetheless remains val ~ d that if an hon. gentleman opposite choses to interrupt, thus transgressing the rules of the House1 he can hardly be heard to complain with any validity if he in turn draws a little answering fire. Now, Mr. Speaker, whether we call that the tit for tat rule or any other rul~, we could call it the jot and tittle rule, or a number of things, the fact remains that that was the decision which the Speaker gave. ! t he has subsequently given another one I am not aware of it.

I will have to go and . read the Hansards._ It_ may well have occurred during a day when I was away from the House, doing what the Minister of Justice ought fo have been doing namely; trying t~help the people who were trying to preserv~'the seal hunt. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 3435 '

March 23, 1977 Tape No. 1239 N!1- 1 MR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Speaker, let me come back to talking about Labrador which after all is the motion before the House. When I spoke a fortnight ago I said that in my opinion~ I think the opinion is a sound one, it is not mine alone, it is one which a great number of people share - ~~~ . in my opinion there are very real problems in the relationship between the people who live in the Labrador part of this Province and the people who live in the Island part of this Province and it is mainly the people in the Labrador part who perceive this difference.

They may not all perceive any problem. They may perceive different problems and in different parts of Labrador the concerns vary widely from those of people in other parts of Labrador. The people who live in the dis~rict represented by my friend from Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) have very different concerns from people who live in the district which I represent which includes the Southern Coast of Labrador, the area from L'Anse~au~lair north to Red Bay. The people who live in the -;. - district of Menihek have widely differing concerns from those advanced by the people who live say in Happy Valley-Goose Bay.

But all, Sir, .have one thing in common, they may ~ave different reasons for bringing them to a state of opinion, they all have one thing in common and that is that they are unhappy with the relationship between Newfoundland and Labrador. More and more people are coming to question this. Anybody who thinks otherwise is e~ther being incredibly ignorant of the facts or is · W:i-lfully ignoring the facts.

We may disagree as to the cause, we may disagree as to what should be done about it, but nobody could disagree about the state of opinion, the fact that it exists and we should be concerned with 1t. 9 Now, Sir, I think it is-incumbent upon the Government of the Province, or failing them,and they have failed in this case, it is incumbent upon the House itself to discuss this and to try to take some steps to alleviate it. And I do not want to get into =

March 23; 1977 Tape No. 1239 m.-t - 2 MR. ROBERTS: what the government have done or not done. I have only got forty minutes and it would take a lot longer than that to catalogue the 'failures of this administration with respect to Labrador •. And I say there are failings despite the valiant efforts of the gentleman from Menihek CMr. J. Rousseau) who : I think has carried on a lonely fight. The gentleman .from Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) has made so~e . noises but has done little else.

But I think the gentleman from Menihek, who is the only Labrador member in the Cabinet, has carried on . . a valiant fight and he has simply been overruled time and time again,even on something as simple or as minor. as getting government letterhead with Government of Newfoundland and Labrador on it, a name established by this House. The minister has fought for it. But colleague after colleague of his has gone contrary to that.

And the minis~er whenever he hears about it, has done something about it, but still you know we can : still find examples day after day of letterhead currently in use by ministers and by public servants that still says Gove~ent of Newfoundland. I Hardly _a day goes by that we do not see it, hardly a day, hardly a minute. AN HON. MEMBER: Very embarrassing. Very embarrassing. MR. ROBERTS: Yes it is very embarrassing to the minister and to the House because it is a flagrant defiance of

an act ~ of this Legislature. We saw the minist~?Ls colleague, his seat mate, the Minister of Education brought a bill into the House the other day to create the Newfoundland Polytechnical Institute, not the Newfoundland and Labrador Polytechnical Institute, the Newfoundland Polytechnical Institute. No wonder people in Labrador are concerned and upset. If the government ignore something as simple as that:~-now I will not .. -say, and I do not wan~ anybody to pr~t~nd that I say, that the name of the Province in itself is terribly important. But it is a

March 23, 1977 Tape No. 1239 NM- 3 MR. ROBERTS: significant symbol and I think the minister will agree with me that the feeling in Labrador is that the people in Labrador are proud to have the words Newfoundland and Labrador making up the name of this Province. And I do not find very many people on the Island who object. And I think as long as our Province is made up of two parts, two geographic parts, and I hope it always will be, the name of that Province should be Newfoundland and Labrador. I think the minister agrees with me. Mr.

Speaker, let me talk in the few .. minutes left to me about some of the practical steps which I suggest we could look at in an effort to ,try to resolve the difficulties or to try to improve the situation. And - these are the types of steps which in ~y opinion a select committee could look into and could get opinions upon and good- -sound opinion. And,of course,as Your Honour will recall, the purpose of this resolution is to appoint a sele~t committee to hold hearings throughout Labrador and . throughout Newfoundland too, but throughout Labrador and to receive briefs. First of all, Sir, .:. 3438

March 23, 1977 Tape 1240 Page 1. MP .• ROBERTS: let me say there are two levels of approach which we can take. I think we should realize there are two entirely qualitatively different kinds of action. One is the practical; the bread and butte~ the nuts and bolts. The other is the much deeper and much,much more important in the long run and much more significant• Let me talk first about the more immediate> the mo~e practical easier ones.

I will be specific . but, in the interest of brevity, I will not go into details.But let me say first of all that I think we as a province, we as a party accept it but I invite the ·government to accept it,we have ·_ got to take as our principal the fact that we believe the peopl~_ of Labrador, people who live in Labrador must have access to public services comparable to those available to people throughout the Island. That should be the _p_r_~~~iple Sir, it is a _ PJ;:inc~ple which is not now absorbed.

People who live in Labrador Sir, do not have access to public services equivalent to those available throughout the Island. Some of the people do. The people who live in Western Labrador in many ways are ahead of many ~eople who live on this Island.

Sir, the people who li....-e on the coast ·, particularly the southern coast} the neglected coast, the coast that is in ·my d.istrict and the coast that is in my friend's district, the coast from Lance au Clair in the south to Cart~~ight in the north the coast south of the g~eat indent of Lake Melville, those people, Sir, are the most neglected people in this Province. There is not an inch of pavement. There is hardly an inch of .. road ~ worth driving on between Lance au Clair and Cartwright. There is not an adequate municipal water system, there is not an adequate public water system. AN. RON.

MEJ..fBER: Rigolet. !offi.ROBERTS: Rigolet, no Rigolet is nn the north side of ?~elville. Rigolet is under the federal provinc~~~ agreement and so is Black Tickle. So if anything has been done in either of these communities) as it has it, 90% is federal or thereabout, depending on the exact ' . 3439

~~arch 23, 1977 Tape 1240 Page 2. MR.ROBERTS: proportion of Inuit~Indian and settler people in the community..-- But the Government of this oProvince, o;.rith the piddling exception of what little they have done in Forteau and Lance au Clair and Lance au L'Eau have not put one nickel into water systems. Even something as basic as water systems, forget sewera~e svstems The Premier promised them in Cartwright in the summer of 1972) during his one and.only visit to Cartwright, he has been in Eagle River a number of times; fishing, __ b~t he has only been in Cartwright once.

He went there during the hi-election campaign. He told them that th_e goyernment would - I do not think he promised that the government would do it he said the government would make a study and survey and,w~ will see . what we can do. Of course if the study was done i~ has not been seen since and no action has been taken. But that kind of public service the people of Labrador do not have access to them. Let me name another one, the CBC,the television. I think it is essential that the people of all parts of this province have access to both television services the CBC arid the CTV.

At present only the CBC services are available and that is not universally so. - ·-available on the ground satellite station at Sept Iles and it comes down the railway. So you can get English and French CBC. You cannot get CBC radio there • In Labrador, on the coast of Labrador there are very few communities where you can get the signal from the ground receiver station that there is at Happy-Valley.· But again it is CBC. Nothing wrong with-1t but it is only one of the two channels. I think it is a matter of record, it is the least desirable, the least popular I should say, of those two channels.

Steps much be taken to have the CTV service provided. If it is not economically feasible __ to do so) and I do not think it is' if it is not then we cannot expec't the private network to provide funds becau~e they have to operate under the laws 3440 -~

l·'arcg 23, 1977 Tape 1240 Page 3. mt.P,OBERTS: of the marketplace.CBC do not. CBC gets hundreds of millions of dollars a year as grants from the Government of Canada, the Parlialnent of Canada,. to enable them to function. If it is not economically feasible to do so then the necessary hardware has to be provided. The repeater stations and the receiver stations that is what is needed. And I may add what · . ' . I say about the coast of Labrador applies equally to the northern peninsula.

If you draw a line from, say, Bonne Bay across to the bottom of White Bay,Hampden, Jackson's Arm, north of there,there is no :..private tele1Tision ·service available except on a fl!:eak or a fluke basis. You: can . . .. ) 344:1 .·

March 23, 1977 Tape No. 1241 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: only get CBC. So let the government provide it .- It is constitutionally permissable for the Government of the Province to do it. It does not infringe upon the federal jurisdiction with respect .to broadcasting. Sure I ~v-ould rather see .the Govermnent of Canada ' do it, th_ey -· have got more money than our government has. And I think the government as a first step should try. But it has been discussed here in the House, nothing has been done. No , approach has been made to the Government of Canada to see if we could get a special programme.

What would it cost? $5 million, $10 million, they do not even know. The· · Minister of Transportation and Communications has not got the least idea and nobody in the government has even cared enough to find out what it would cost. But if the Government of Canada will not provide the money,and as I have said they should be approached and pressured, but if they say No, then I think the Government of the Province should do it. MR. NEARY: If .mY han. frien~ would allow me for a minute-? HR. ROBERTS: Yes, of course. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there is no quorum in the House, could we have a quorum call? MR.

ROBERTS : Yes we should. Yes. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS) : I would ask the Clerk of the House to count the House~ Order, please! I am informed the quorum is present. ·The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The point I was making is that the Government of the Province should take this 3442

March 23, 1977 Tape No. 1241 NM- 2 MR. ROBERTS: responsibility upon themselves if nobody else does. I think it is that important. I think it is of very great importance and I think it is something Hhich the government can do. I think, Sir, that the Public fervice generally has got to be upgraded. Roads have got to be provided-where they are necessary, the sort of situation my friend in Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) talked about in the community of Fox Harbour cannot be tolerated in this Province any longer. The schools in most communities are still inadequate.

I know the government are not directly responsible but they .. do have a responsibility. Economic development has been a phrase and not a policy with respect to Labrador. In fact for many~of the people living in Labrador ,I think it is true to say that life has not improved at all since Confederation. For many it has become far worse,in real terms. Transportation servic~s _have ~ot to be improved radically and quickly. I do not think we. can bu~ld roads to every community in Labrador at this time. There may well be many communities in which we could never build roads. But there are steps which we can take.

We can do something -to h~lp the prisoners of Western Labrador. And the prisoners of Western Labrador are the people of Western Labrador who are being hit by constantly rising air fares and~ S~r, for them air travel is the only real means of transportation. The road link is down the railway to Sept Iles and then on from there. Something has got to be done. The subsidy must be increased. Then I think the government should try to open the road across AN HON. MEMBER: How far? 3443

March 23, 1977 Tape No. 1241 NM- 3 !1R: ROBERTS: - put the car on the train in Labrador City or Wabush)to drive it by rail across to Ross Bay Junction and north to Esker and then to drive it by road from E$ker across to Churchill on what is a good road, the road which is now used as the supply point for surface transportation to _. Churchill Falls,and then drive further to the east from Churchill Falls down the Freedom Road to Happy Valley, a road which is now drivable, indeed I hope to drive ~n it myself this Summer but I do not think it is a very practical road. I do not think it is a very easy road to drive.

I think it needs some money spent on it. It. needs some attention. That is something the government can do. Something the government can do directly and immediately and positively. I think they have got to increase the subsidy pay. It is now twenty-five per cent. And I think it has got to be increased. I know it will cost the government money but so does everything els_e. AN RON. MEMBER: Twenty~five per cent? -MR. ROBERTS:- Yes, the twenty-five per cent, Sir ·. We brought it in. It ~vas twenty-five per cent of what? - - 3444

March 23, 1977 Tape 1242 JM- 1 MR. ROBERTS: $100.00 1 I guess,was the round trip in those days? Yes, it is now twenty-five pe'rcent of $212.00 it will be after the next raise. AN HON. MEMBER: $226.00 after the next raise. MR. ROBERTS: $226.00 my friend tells me after the- next raise. l.Jell there is a big difference between twenty-five percent of $225.00 and twenty-five percent of $120.00. People are really - It costs a man and his wife and the family $1,000 to get out on a holiday, at least. -Incredi'bie --- the only people in this province who are so cursed.

We have to build air strips - Nain, Makkovik, Hopedale, Rigolet, Cartwright, Port Hope Simpson, Mary's Harbour and in the L'Anse-a~l'Fau Area. Ottawa should help but they are helping to an extent. I think they are paying part of the cost of the strip at Cartwright. It is very reyealing that the strip at Cartwright is b.eing built in large measure,I suggest.because of the oil exploration activity off that part of the Coast of Labrador. Mr. Speaker, we need more strips and we need them quickly. Something has to be done about the price of electricity.

I . think that the government and it is not just in Labrador it applies - many of the rural areas of this ~rovince have got to do more to reduce the cost of electricity. Why should ~eople be penalized becaus~ they live in areas where they must consume diseal generat:ecrpowei'"'f~. I know the public chest through the government subsidizes this already vecy largely but I suggest the subsidy is not large enough. Instead of say the first five hundred hours being equalized 1,which is the present rule, it should be the first thousand.

Now that Happy Valley-Goose Bay - a very large area consuming a lot of power- is being fed by hydro power as opposed to diseal generated powe~ then surely the cost of ' ·-equalizing the first thousand hours 1 which is getting close to a 3445 .- ·~·

March 23, 1977 Tape 1242 JM- 2 MR. ROBERTS: normal consumption, a normal months consumption in a normal home with the usual appliances that, Sir, is not beyond the reach of the Treasury. But, Sir, these are all specific and very small, as important as they may be, small matters. Let me conclude in the ten minutes I have left - the clerk keeps track - it is like a hockey game. I have about twenty minutes left he tells me. I do not know if I will need them, Sir, but let me ·conclude by talking about what I believe are the important things that we should do.

The other things are important but they do not go very far - roads~ schools, municipal services, transportation, television - they are ' all important. They all should be done. They are all relatively easy to do. All it takes by and large is money. I know money is not always easy to come by but it is not a difficult or a cumbersome idea to accept and it is not a difficult or a cumbersome one to implement given enough cash. What I suggest we have to do now in this province is to commit ourselves to an examination of the constitutional structure of this province. We have a government - of laws not· of men.

That is a basic truth. But, Sir, in my view, in my belief the law must be made to serve man - not man to serve the law.. lve I must observe the law of course. If the laws are not adequate, if they no longer reflect the realities of the day then they ought to be changed by th~ proper and appropriate processes. Qur ccnsitutional structures have 'served us . well~by and large, but that does not mean that they should not be changed if we can make them serve better.

What I am· saying really in so many words is that we in this province, ' in Newfoundland and Labrador,must now be prepared to undergo the . same sort of process which we as Canadians are going to go through in the next few years in coming to terms with the situation that now exists with Quebec - in particul-ar with the francophone population 3446

March 23, 1977 Tape 1242 JH - 3 MR. ROBERTS: of Canada in general. I have no doubt there is some who will condemn me for this. Some will say I should not even mention it as _if somehow it were unthinkable but the trouble is that when you ignore the unthinkable then it often becomes the immediate. I believe, Sir, in confronting problems and discussing them and looking at the options and looking at the solutions and then dealing with them. HR. STRACHAN : It is : ____ like· walking toward a pothole in the street and closing ·. ~our _ eyE:_s _ -toit -.:.-~ ~-~-~--- MR.

ROBERTS: My friend from Eagle River says not to confront reality is like walking towards a pothole in the street and closing your eyes to it. The concerns are there in Labrador. The men who sit in this House and who live · in Labrador or who ·have close ties to Labrador know that. Anybody else with any real inkling of what is happening in Labrador knows that and any --- -- -- ----- --- - . -- .. ·---- - --- - -- -- =- 3447

J:.Iarch 23, 1977. Tape 1243 RH - 1 MR. ROBERTS: member or any person on this Island who does not know it.i~- e~~~er ignoring reality or just does not want to face reality. Whether we like it or not, Sir, whether we admit it or not there is a problem. Many of the people of Labrador, not a majority but ·a significant minority and _one which is growing both in strength and in substance are seriously questioning Labrador's role within this Province. Anybody who does not accept this, as I have said, is either blind or stupid. The signs are on every hand. The gentleman from St. Barbe(Mr.

Maynard) was at the conference, I- attended it as well, the Labrador Resources Advisory Council in Happy Valley, funded as it is by the government -what?- the middle of February and I think he got an eye opener there, the experience of having a civil servant get up and question, not the government's actions but the government very integrity in their motives. I do not mean the government a ~ ~ - g_ro1:J.p __ 9~- men, I mean the government as a government, as a corporate agency.

A civil servant, an employee of the Minister of Education, _in fact, got up at a public meeting and just. di~ not question the government's actions but questioned the minister. The minister had made a statement of policy and the gentleman said in so many words, "I do not believe you. You are not telling us the truth. You are not telling us why you really act as you do." The Minister of Forestry and Agr-iculture was there, and if I am wrong I hope he will j~ai~~~~~- me~ But I was not wrong. I am not wrong. I __ was_ shocked by it. The signs are there.

Those of us who represent Labrador constituencies can testifywi~~- eloquence and conviction that more and more of our constituents are questioning the very future of this Province as a united Province. I have said time and time again ~vhere I stand and where my Party stands 1 that we believe that a united Newfoundland and Labrador is a much greater 3448

March 23, 1977. Tape 1243 RH - 2 HR. ROBERTS: one for all of her people. But we also believe that we have got to stand up for it and try to make it so. And for all these reasons, Sir, I think it ~s of compelling and urgent importance that we in this Provi~ce commit ourselves to a fundamental : re-examination of the alternative constitutional structures available to us within this Province. I do not advocate any particular alternative but I believe we should look at all the alternatives and weigh them. It is within our power as a Province to do so. The British North America Act specifically g;i.ves us this power. I read the relevant . sections. of the B·.N .A. Act a day or so ago,

section 92(2) is the one which gives us the power. Let us use it then and let us use it wisely. What are the alternatives and what are the merits of each? Well the first alternative, Mr. Speaker, the obvious first one is simply to leave things as they are now. This- has its merits. The present constitutional structure of this Province has served us as a Province for nearly thirty years. For manv years before that it. served us when we were a Dominion and th~n when _we were under Commission of Government. Each of us, each of the people of this Province must decide for himself whether it can continu~ to serve.

I question it for the reasons which I have·given. But it is an alternative. And if upon looking at all the other _c;o.u~~~s-~f_actian open to· us, ''we feel that it is the best alternative, then let us stick with it. But let it be a conscious decision. Let it be a decision taken by the people of this Province only after they have weighed the various alternatives available to them. Another alternative, Sir, number two,is at the other end of the constitutional scale and that is the separation of Labrador, the assumption by it : of -territorial"~ siatus ~ . often talked . about _ __ _ --·· .. · ~ - - .. 3449

Harch 23, 1977. Tape 1243 RH- 3 HR. ROBERTS: although often in very loose terms. I find it anathema and repellent but it is talked about. And as far as _I can understand it the proponents of this form of government, this status~are -, ·- . ·-· talking of an arrangement similar to that which now governs the Northwest Territories and the Yukon, the two"