ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 11 0 - 2:00 p.m., TUES DAY, 19 JULY, 19 83. Printed by the Office of the Oueens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Member s, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA,Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thomµson La Verendr ye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Nia kwa Radisson Cha rleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Ru ssell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 19 July, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Comm ittees . MINISTERIA L STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, in response to re com mendations receiv ed from the Provincial Epidemiologi st and advice from expert sources from outside the province, I am announcing that a health emergency has been declared in Manitoba due to the potential outbreak of Western Equine Encephalitis. Plans for an aerial spraying program are being initiated for areas of hig hest risk, primarily the Red River Valley. It is expected the aerial spraying will be able to commence later this week.

Centres to be included in the initial phase of the aerial spraying campaign include Winnipeg, Selkirk and Morden, but I would also like to state that several other areas are also being considered and will be annou nced short ly. The higher level of Culex tarsalis mosquito activity reported indicates that immedia te action must be taken to reduce the potential outbreak of Western Equine Encephalitis in humans. I would also like to re-emphasize that aerial spraying merely reduces the potential for infection and that personal protection is still the best method to avoid contracting the disease.

These methods include: Where possible, avoid being outdoors during the sunset hours when mosqu itoes are more active. People should wear long pants and long-sl eeved clothing to minimi ze skin expo sure. Light coloured clothing is less attractive to mosquitoes. The use of ins ect repellent is stro ngly reco mmended. Infants trans por ted in carriages should be protected by netting. Using well-maintained screens on doors and windo ws. The chemical to be used in the aerial spraying program will be Malathion.

The decision to use Malathion followed extensive discussion with officials from my department and the Environment Department. I wish to in form the Ho use tha t the resour ces necessary to conduct the aerial spraying program are now being mobili zed. Thank you, Mr. Speake r. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Fort Gar ry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speak er, I wish to thank the Honour able Minister for his statement. It is not my intention, Sir, to comment at length either upon the statement or the decision.

I recognize the assessment and eval uation process tha t the Min ister and his colleagues have had to go through to come to this conclusion. I believe, and I feel certain that I am speaking for all my colleagues on this point, that the correct decision has been made. Public health and safety must be paramount if, as is indicated in his statement, his health officials have advised him that a health emer genc y exists, then the legi slators of Manitoba must move together in concert to provide the best possible defence for the people of Manitoba against the threat of very serious illness.

The only question I would raise would be with respect to the timing of the inception of the program. I would hope that it could commence very quickly now that the Min ister ha s ackn owledged and declared tha t an emergency does exist. Second ly, Sir, I would expect that a monitoring program will be maintai ned with respect to the effectiveness of the insecticide itself. Whether Malathion is as effective in Manitoba temperatures against this particular species of vector mosquito as is Baygon is an open clin ical question, and I am sure that the government is looking at that question.

Ho wever, Sir, with respect to the decision and the initiative in the interest of protecting the people of Manitoba, I can assure the Minister and his colleagues of our concurrence and our support. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . The Honourable Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Yes, Mr. Speaker , I just received the report from the Clerk. I wonder if we could revert to presenting reports stage? MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave to report for the standing comm ittees? (Agreed) PRESENTI NG REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIA L COMMI TTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for River East. MR. P.

EYLER: Mr. Speak er, I beg to present the Eighth Repor t of the Sta nding Commit tee on Law Amendments. MR. CLERK, W. Remnant: Your Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendments begs leave to present the following as their Eighth Report: Your committee met on Monda y, July 18, 1983 and agreed that Bill No. 17,

An Act to amend The Judgm ents Act, not be reported. Your committee has considered: 4391

Tuesday, 19 July, 1983 Bill No. 20 The Occupiers' Liabil ity Act;

Loi sur la responsabilite des occupants, Bill No. 46 The Perpetuities and Accumulations Act;

Loi sur les dispositions a

titre perpetuel et la capitalisation, Bill No. 82 The Jur y Act;

Loi sur les jures. And has agreed to report the same with certain amendments. Your committee also considered: Bill No. 83

An Act to amend The Bui lders' Liens Act ; Loi modi fiant la

loi sur le privilege du constructeur, Bill No. 108

An Act to amend The Criminal Injuries Compensation Act(3). And ha s ag reed to repor t the same without amendment. All of which is respectfully submitted. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Mr. Speak er, I move, seconded by the Mem ber for Radisson, that the report of the comm ittee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Thank you, Mr. Speak er, I beg to present the Second Report of the Com mittee on Municipal Affairs. MR.

CLERK: Your Standing Commit tee on Municipal Affairs begs leave to present the following as their Second Report: Your committee met on Tuesday, July 19 , 19 83 and heard representations with respect to the bills before the committee as follows: Bill No. 56

An Act to amend The Brandon Charter Mr. Fred Anderson, Deputy Mayor of the City of Brandon; Bill No. 92

An Act to amend The City of Winnipeg Act Mr. Fred Steele, City Solicitor and Councillor Jim Ernst of the City of the City of Winnipeg Mr. Paul R. Moist, Vice-Pr esident of the Winnipeg Labour Council Mr. Kent Gerecke, President, Winnipeg Municipal New Democratic Party Mr. Peter Regey, Amalg amated Transit Union Local 15 05 Mr. Ed. Blackman, President, Canadian Union of Public Emp loyees Local 500. Your comm ittee has considered: Bill No. 21

An Act to amend the Municipal Act Bill No. 51

An Act to amend The Local Authorities Election Act. And has agreed to report the same with certain amendments. Your committee has also considered: Bill No. 56

An Act to amend the Bra ndo n Charter . And has agre ed to repor t the same with an amend ment, on division. Your committee has also considered: Bill No. 39

An Act to valida te By-law Numb er 13 11 of The Town of Melita; Loi validant le reglement numero 131 1 de la ville de Melita. And has agreed to repor t the same without amendment. All of which is respectfully submi tted. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Corporate Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Mr. Spea ker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for lnkster, that the report of the committee be received . MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... ORAL QUESTIONS Jobs Fund - advertising MR. SPEAKER: The Ho no ur able Member for St. Norb ert. MR. G.

MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , my question is to the First Minister. Does the Advertising Audit Office report to the First Minister? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes, Mr. Speak er. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speak er, could the First Minister confirm that the Advertising Audit Office has prepared a media plan for the advertising of the Manitoba Jobs Fund and related projects? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I believe that to be the case. I can take that further as notice if the member would like. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, during the last few weeks the First Minister has refused to disclose to this House the details of the hundr eds of thousands of d'Jllars being spent by the government on advertising the Jobs Fund and related projects. My question to the First Minister now is, in view of his answers to the previous two questions, would he table in this Hous e the media plan prepared for advertising the Jobs Fund? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speake r, I indicated two weeks ago as, indeed, I believe has always been the practice, and the honourable member has had an opportunity to file an Order for Return; I've not refused to provide 4392

Tuesday, 19 July, 1983 the information. If the honourable member would file an Order for Return specifying the information that he wants pertai ning to the advertising program, I'm sure we can accommoda te that request, as has been the approach that's been used in the past. So let there be no mistake. It has not been a question of refusing. It's been a question of inviting the honour able member to proceed in the usual manner of filing for an Order for Return. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speak er, my questions today are not related to the details of the hundr eds of thousands of dollars being spent on the advertising plan. The First Minister has confirmed the Adver tising Audit Office which reports to him has prepared a media plan. My question to him is, would he undertake to table in this House a copy of the media plan which is read ily available from the Advertising Audit Office which reports to him and has prepared the plan? HON. H. PAWLEY: It's an ongoing program.

Again, if the honour able member would file an Order for Return specifying the information that he requests, we'll be prepared to oblige the honourable member . MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speak er, the First Minister obviously does not want to disclose either the details of this enormous amount of money being spent on advertising the Jobs Fund and related projects, and is not prepared to even table in this Legislature a media plan which he has read ily available to him. Workers Compensation Board MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, another question to the Minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board.

In view of the fact that it is now almo st six weeks since he undertook to table in this Legislature a listing of the persons who ha ve been fired, dismissed and forcefu lly ret ired and released from the Workers Comp ensation Board, when will he table th at information in the Legislature? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: I can assure the Member for St. Norbert that there are more pressing matters at hand at the moment, but I can give him a commitment . A MEMBER: Like firing somebody . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. HON. J.

COWAN: . . . and I think the people of Manitoba would agree with that, even if members opposite, including the Member tor Pembina, disagree. I think they would agree with that general thrust. However, I can give him a commitment to have that information tabled to him by the time this Legislature ends this particular Session. Deer Lodge Hospital - takeover MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Gar ry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speak er, my question is to the Honou rable Minister of Health .

I would ask him whether he can confirm that, notwithstanding the fact that a numb er of permanent staff nurses at Deer Lodge Hospital have had their employment termina ted as a result of the Pr ovincial Government takeov er, the hospital is hiring nurses from Upjohn and Medox on a part-time, ad-ho e basis at $18 per hour . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speak er, on this question tha t the member asks me, I'll have to take it as notice. He is talking about a specific case, and I will have to check. MR. L.

SHERMAN: While the Minister is investigating that situation, Sir , bearing on the position with respect to permanent nurses at Deer Lodge Hospital; would he also investigate - or perhaps he could answer at this time a question that is based on the admitting practices of the hospital - can the Minister advise the House whether he can confirm that there has not been a single patient adm itted to Deer Lodge Hospital since the province took over the hospital on April 1st? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, I'll check this also, but I don't think that we should have this kind of a misinterpretation or a misleading statement. I think that we should remember that the situation with the staff would be the same as if we continued under the Federal Government. Now there have been all kinds of attempts to keep as many jobs as possible. I think that statement was made. There are some people that have chosen to seek employment elsewhere and I believe that there is cer tainly some merit to the sugge stion or to the statement that was made, that they have had to get the nurses in other areas.

That has happened before, that at times you have an immed iate shortage of nurses for any reason; that is not something new. Then you have to make sure the important thing is, as was stated in another matter earlier, that the important thing is the health of the patients. Now as far as the admitting, let us remember the agreement tha t has been made with the Federal Government, and that is, anybody that needs acute care would be admitted in other hospitals and not necessarily in that hospital.

The number of beds that the Federal Government requested - and that was looked into by the veterans' organization also - tor personal care beds, if these beds are filled then they are like every other Manitoban, but that doesn't mean that they cannot be admitted. We can go ahead with the agreement and that was the responsibility of the Federal Government. We made sure that the veterans' group were in agreement with that and now we're just going along with it. So I think that is a bit mislead ing. I am not suggesting that this is done purposely, but I think it's misleading. There is nothing worse happening, 4393

Tuesday, 19 July, 1983 now that Manitoba owns the hospital, that was the case before. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speak er, I assure the Minister it is not my intention to be misleading. I am asking questions based on commun ication that I've had from doctors, from medical personnel who have tried to get patients adm itted to Deer Lodge Hospital.

I would ask the Minister whether he can confirm that notwithstanding the fact that appro xima tely 150 beds were to be held for veterans - with which all of us in this Chamber I'm sure are in concurrence - Deer Lodge Centre, as it has become, was nonetheless intended to be a commun ity extended care hospital. Can the Minister confirm that the intention was to turn that facility into a community extended-care hospital? If that is the case, where is the bottleneck? What's the problem in getting extended-care patients into that facility? HON. L. DESJARDINS: No, Mr. Speak er, a final decision certainly wasn't made.

I think I annou nced that we were looking at the bed situation, bed guideli nes, and the main thir.g that definitely we can state that Deer Lodge Hospital, the Deer Lodge Centre, will become more a service for gerontol ogy, I would say. That is the main thing. Now, the final decision hasn't been made, but as far as doctors saying that they can't ha ve people admit ted, that's a possi bil ity. It's a possi bilit y, because the statement was made and I think it was very clear that the decision was made that the acute - and it might be the patients that need acute care, and that will be done.

Well, I haven't got this, I would have to have this information. If that is the case, then it is the right thing to do. Now if we are talking about people in a personal care area and if the beds are taken, well, that's the obligation with the veterans. Now as far as the hospital, a final decision hasn't been made. We know that there will be a construction there, and there will be a determination of what to do with the beds, but that final decision has not been made. Indictment of government employee MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker , I would like to direct a question to the Attorney-General and ask him whether he would consider a fine upon a civil servant who took $41 ,000 in kick backs, whether he would consider a fine of $8,000 to be a little on the light side? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: I have a policy with respect to decisions of the court where there is a possibility of an appeal; and that is, there is a committee of the senior admin istrators in the department who meet as an Appeal Advisor y Commi ttee. They meet every Wednesday morning, and they may well consider this.

I would like to await their recommendations before any decision is made with respect to the possibility of an appeal. So that since that is still a pending matter, I think it would be inappropria te for me to answer the question and give what could only be a personal opinion at this time. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speak er, not being erudite in the field of law, I would simply ask the Minister whether he would disagree with the statement of the Provincial Court Judge , Frank Allen, who was quoted as saying that it was important to deter others from similar conduct to protect the integrity of government and those who do business with it. I would ask him whet her, in view of that statement by the judge, a fine of $8,000 with no jail sentence on a kick back of $41 ,875 isn't ridiculous? MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I would remind the honourable member that the purpose of oral questions is to obtain facts from the government and not from opinions. Perhaps the honourable member would wish to reph rase his question. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker , my point, and perhaps this has already been indicated, I simply ask the Attorney-General whether he has called for, or whether he will call for a review of what appears to be an inappr opriate sentence? HON. R. PENNER: I will, in fact, ask the Deputy Attorney-General to place this matter on the agenda for his committee.

I expect it there in any event, but certainly will make sure that it is consid ered by the appropria te senior admin istrators in the first instance. The Manitoba Act �

Section 23 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan Riv er. MR. D. GOURLAY: Prior to directing a question to the First Minister, I'd like to table in the House the copy of a letter dated June 27, 19 83, add ressed to the Secretar y- Treasurer of the Town of Swan River from the First Minister and also a copy of

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act. My question to the First Minister is, why has it not been possible for him to accurately quote

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act in his letter to the Town of Swan River? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , I don't think there's any ... Mr. Speak er, I'll take the question as notice as to what the . . . I wish the honourable member would repeat his question because it certainly wasn't ciear from the question that he's posed. MR. D. GOURLAY: My question to the Fi rst Minister is, why was it not possible for him to accurately quote

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act in his letter to the Town of Swan River? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , it seems like rather a petty little question to pose.

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act is 100 years old.

Section 23 indeed this 4394

Tuesday, 19 July, 1983 last while has been widely publ icized and certainly I don't have any problems in further widely ... A MEMBER: Don't they have it up in Swan River? HON. H. PAWLEY: ... publ icizing

Section 23, which is part of The 1870 Manitoba Act and has been around for 113 years, so I don't understand the petty nature of the question at all, Mr. Speak er. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Spea ker, the First Minister has inaccurately quo ted

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act to the Town of Swan Riv er. I wonder how many other munic ipalities and individuals have received the same kind of inaccuracy in describing

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , I see what the big ado is about, a typing error insofar as Page 1, is the words, "E ither the English or the French language may be used by any person in the debates of the Hous es of the Legislatur e, and both those langua ges shall be used in the respective Records and Journals of those Houses; and either of those languages may be used by any person, or in any Pleading or Process, in or issuing from any Court of Canada established under The British North America Act, 1867, or in or from all or any of the Courts of the Province.

The Acts of the Legislature shall be printed and published in both ... ," and I gather the problem is that the word "official" langua ges rather than the word "those" was there. A typographical err or. MR. D. GOURLAY: Yes, I'd like to ask the First Minister why he has chosen to use the word "offic ial" rather than "those" langua ges? MON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker , just in case the honour able memb er is not aware, th ere was documentation and material distributed in the House some two weeks ago, a memo signed by his Conservative Leader while his Conservative Leader was the Premier of the Province of Manitoba referring to both official languages, English and French; and in case the honourable member doesn't have that memo I will ask tha t, indeed, that memo be produc ed so that I can ensure that the Honour able Member for Swan River reads the words of his own Conservative Leader of this Province while he was Premier of the Province of Manitoba. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr.

Speaker , I would just point out to the First Minister that he is quoting

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act. My leader was not quoting

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act. That makes a big difference. I would ask the First Minister how many letters of this nature has he sent out to municipalities and individuals in this province, because the word "official" has a very important connotation to the whole concept of this resolution that's been brought into the Hou se. A MEMBER: A little legal trick, Howard. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speak er, I accept from the Ho nour able Member for Pembina that it's not worthwhile concerning myself about words of misleading from the honourable member because I have to assume from whence it comes.

There is a typographical error insofar as the letter is concerned, and I will obtain the memo and ensure that the Honourable Member for Swan River has that letter signed by his own member; there's no misleading in any event - and I would ask the Clerk to obtain the memo which was tabled in his House signed by his own leader . So if the honourable member wants to accuse the present Premier of misleading, he'd better be prepared to also accuse the former Premier of this Province of misleading as well. MR. D. GOURLAY: I would ask the First Minister why he has chosen to misquote

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act. He has deli berately misquoted

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act. Just to read the - he says, "Section 23 of The Manitoba Act reads as follows: . . . " MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Ho nourable Government House Leader on a point of order. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, it is clearly contrary to the Rules - and that member should know he's been around long enough - to ascribe motives to a member in the House. That is an unparlia mentary procedure. It's clearly set out in Beauchesne. To say tha t the First Minister deli berately did something is to ascribe a motive to him, the motive to mislead.

The First Minister has said, and no one in this House should doubt or has the right to doubt the word of the First Minister, that that was a typographical error - (I nterjection) - MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker , once more the zoo is alive. Someho w, when this House comes into Session, those people over there begin to act like jackals and hyenas instead of human beings. The fact of the matter is that the Leader of the Opposition, when the First Minister described the two languages as the "official" langua ges, there is no difference of substance in the approach.

The fact of the matter is, that on that motion . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order ple ase. The ho nourable mem ber is leav ing his point of orde r somewhat when he begins to debate the matter. Does the Honourable Minister of Health wish to speak to the same point of order? HON. l. DESJARDINS: Yes, Mr. Spea ker. The point of order is that there's an accusa tion of misleading.

I want to quote one paragraph: "One of the secretariat's first tasks will be to draft a set of guidelines for Cabinet conside ration, crea ting a framework within which departments and agencies which have not already done so may implement policies designed to provide at least some of their services to Manitobans in both official languages." A MEMBER: Who said that? HON. L. DESJARDINS: This is signed by Mr. Sterling Lyon on September 14th ... 4395

Tuesday, 19 July, 1983 SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please, order. The Honourable Minister of Health is again debating the matter and not speaking to the point of order. Does any other member wish to speak to the point of order? The Honourable Member for Swan River to the point of order. MR. D. GOURLAY: No, I want to direct a further question to the First Minister. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Government House Leader is quite clear when he states that mem bers should not impute motives to other members of this House. I hope that all members will bear that in mind.

The Honourable Member for Swan River . MR. D. GOURLAY: Yes, I would like to direct a question to the First Minister and ask him , who checks his correspondence for accuracy before he mails it out? HON. L. CJESJARDINS: The same people that check yours. A MEMBER: Oh, shut up. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Why should I? You're the only one that can speak? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, it's a typographical error. I assume full responsibility for the typographical error in the letter.

I am sure that the honourable member and each and every honourable member in this Chamber from time to time has sent out letters that have included typographical errors. What is more serious, Mr. Speak er, and I do think that the honourable member should at this time be prepared to withd raw the word "mislead," because certainly there was no intent at any time to mislead and that is an imputation of motive on my part that I intended to mislead Manitobans in respect to the letter. The Honourable Member for Pembina has sho uted from his seat, right, Mr. Speak er.

So, it's very clear that there is an attempt to imply a false imputation to myself and I would ask that that impu tation be withd rawn by the Honourable Member for Swan Riv er. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan Riv er. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker , direct a further question to the First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: I've asked that that implication of motive on my part that I attempted to mislead be withd rawn by the Member for Swan River accord ing to the Rules of this Cham ber. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Let me quote for the benefit of honourable members, two citations from Beauchesne.

One is 322, which said, "It has been formally ruled by Speakers that a statement by a member respecting himself and particularly within his own knowledge must be accepted." It also says in 316 (e), " ... that a member must not impute bad motives or motives different from those acknowledged to a member." Considering both of those citations it would seem that the Honourable Member for Swan River should withd raw that imputation that he has made to the First Minister. The Honourable Member for Swan Riv er. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Speak er, if I had indicated the word "deli berate," I would withd raw that.

But I still put on the record that the letter has misled a lot of people of Manitoba by being inaccurate. I would further ask the First Minister to send the letters of apology or corrections to all those people that have received this kind of a letter where

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act has been misquoted. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speak er, I will certainly take that under consideration but in so doing I will ensure that there is a distribution of the letter dated September 4th, 1981, signed by then Honourable Sterling Lyon, Q.C., Premier of Manih.;ba, in which he makes refere nce to providing the services to Man:toba in both official langua ges. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, I would submit to you that the First Minister should apologize to my leader for making that kind of a statement because my leader was not quoting

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act in his letter. HON. H. PAWLEY: Obviously , the Ho nourable Member for Swan River hasn't read the documents that were tabled in this Hous e a few weeks ago by way of the Honourable Attorney- General, or else he would not be asking some of the questions that he is now. I would also refer the honourable member to the memorandum for Cabinet dated October 6th, 19 80, which was also signed by the President of the Council who was then the Premier of the Province of Manitoba making clear reference by which and I read . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H.

PAWLEY: This is signed by the Honourable Sterling Lyon. I know that honourable members don't like to hear this but they're going to have to sit and listen to this. "By a decision of the Supreme Court of Canada made in December 19 79,

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act was restored and to the degree of its effectiveness, Manitoba became a province in which French and English lang uages are recognized." MR. D. GOURLAY: I wonder if the First Minister could table a copy of that, because I am sure that I didn't read where the Leader of the Opposition was quoting

Section 23 of the Manitoba Act. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, now I understand the gross confusion on the part of the members of the Conservative opposition in this Chamber because the Attorney-General did table this document; this memo 4396

Tuesday, 19 July, 1983 signed by Sterling Lyon dated September 4, 19 81, on which his signature is affixed; and attached to that memo was the document submission to Cabinet dated February 6, 1981 also, and other documents. So when the Honourable Member for Swan River requests that I table this document, let me assure the Honourable Member for Swan River that if he would invite the Clerk to obtain for him the document that was tabled in this Ho use, he will obtain the copies of the docu ments I'v e ma de reference to.

If tho se documents are not readily available, of course, we'll make them available to him , but I certainly understand now the gross confusion on the part of the Honourable Member for Swan Riv er. He has not been read ing the documents as tabled in this Chamber dur ing this debate. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speak er, I have a question for the First Minister. Was the information, which the First Minister is now quoting in an attempt to mislead the public furt her, was that material distributed to the public and did it purport to accurately quo te

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act? POINT OF ORDER HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , again I rise on a point of order. The Member for Turtle Mountain has suggested that I am attempting to mislead the public of the Province of Manitoba. I ask that those statements be withdrawn. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I believe the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain knows that it is improper to accuse another member of misleading this House. The Honour able Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ORCHARD: But when he's right, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speak er, the question has been asked of the First Minister and instead of answering the question that was placed to him in a straightforward manner, he has introduced other material which was irrelevant to the question that was asked, and that is misleading to the people of Manitoba. To say that that material was somehow analogous to the statement that this First Minister made when he sent a letter to the R.M. of Swan River or to the Town of Swan River purporting to quote

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act, so that they would know precisely what the wording of that act was, Sir, that sort of action in my view is misleading. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Government House Leader . HON. R. PENNER: To the same point of ord er. The Member for Turtle Mountain did not, in the remark objected to, say that that document was misleading. He said explicitly, it's a matter of record, that the First Minister was attempting to misle ad the House furt her , and that is what is objected to.

The First Minister has acknowledged that there was an error in terms of the use of "official" instead of "those" and has spoken with respect to the question of imputation. You have dealt with that. This flows directly from a ruling that you have already made. The expression used by the Member for Turtle Mountain is clearly unparlia mentary, and must be withdrawn. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please.

There may be a disagreement as to the facts between mem bers and it may be that other people within the province received a di fferent opin ion, th at it is ho wever un parlia ment ary to accus e another mem ber of attempting to mislead this Hous e, which is what the Honour able Member for Turtle Mountain did and he should withd raw those unparliame ntary words. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Sp eak er, I think it's unparliamenta ry to misle ad the people. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker , speaking to the point of order and perhaps hoping to mediate to some extent the situation that we're facing, if there is one thing that has become crystal clear in terms of talking about constitutional amendments or quoting constitutional law, that every word is extremely impor tant. It is inconceivable to members of the opposition that the Premier of this provinc e, guided by the Attorney­ General, would - (Interjection) - Mr. Speaker . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Hono urable Member for Lakeside should speak to the point and not to debate the issue. MR. H.

ENNS: As to the point of order, if the First Minister perhaps can concede that it was an error , whatever error he makes, then perhaps . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The facts of the matter are not before the House. The matter before the Hous e is the fact that the Ho nour able Memb er for Turtle Mo untain us ed unparl iame ntary langua ge, and I ask him to withdraw those words. The Honourable Member for Robli n-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker , on the same point of order, I have a document in my hands from the Town of Grandvie w.

They also got misled by the First Minister. SOME HONOURABLE MEM BERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I ha ve asked the Hono urable Member for Turtle Mountain to withd raw those remarks, and I now tell him that he should withd raw those remarks. 4397

Tuesday, 19 July, 1983 The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. Does the Honourable Member for St. Norbert ha ve a point of order? MR. G. MERCIER: Yes, on a point of order, Mr. Speak er. If you examine, as I'm sure you will want to, Beauchesne, the word "mislead ing," Mr. Speake r, appears in both sections. It is in th e

section that ind ica tes it is unparl iamentary to use that expres sion; and it is also in the

section where it has been ruled parlia mentary to use the expression "mislead ing," Mr. Speaker. I submit to you that under the circums tances and the facts as they have come forward in this House, that it is justifiable in these circums tances. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Mem ber for St. Norb ert does not have a point of order. I am well aware of the matter that he raises. However, it amounts to a direct accusation against another member and must be withdr awn. The Honour able Member for Turtle Mountain will withdr aw his remark. Tha t being the case, I have no alternative . . . Order please, order please.

Order please. In that case, I have no alternative but to name Mr. Brian Ransom for defying the authority of the Chair . The Honourable Government House Leader . HON. R. PENNER: Pursuant to the rules, Mr. Speak er, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance, that the Member for Turtle Mountain be suspended from the service of this House until 3:30 this afternoon. MR. SPEAKER: It has been moved by the Honourable Government Ho use Leader , and secon ded by the Honourable Minister of Finance, that the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain be suspended from the duty of this House until 3:30.

Those in favour, please say aye. Those opposed, please say nay. In my opinion, the ayes have it. I declare the motion carried. MR. G. MERCIER: Yeas and nays, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. Order please. The question before the House, it is moved by the Ho nourable Attorney-General and seconded by the Honourable Minister of Finance, that the Hono urable Member for Turtle Moun tain be suspended from the service of the House until 3:30 this afternoon. A ST ANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: YEAS Messrs. Adam, Ashton, Bucklaschuk, Corrin, Cowan, Desjardins, Mrs. Dodick, Ms.

Dolin, Messrs. Evans, Ey ler , Fox , Ha rapiak , Harp er, Kostyra, Lecuyer, Malino wsk i, Pawl ey, Penn er, Ms. Philli ps, Messrs. Plohman, Santos, Schro eder, Scott, Mrs. Smith, Messrs. Storie, Uskiw. NAYS Messrs. Banman, Blak e, Brown, Down ey, Enns, Filmon, Gourla y, Hyde, Johnston, Kovnats, Lyon, Manness, McKenzie, Mercier, Nordman, Mrs. Oleson, Messrs. Orchard, Ransom, Sherman, Steen. MR. CLERK, W. Remnant: Yeas, 26; Nays, 20. MR. SPEAKER: The motion is accord ingly carried. ORAL QUESTIONS Cont'd. The Manitoba Act -

Section 23 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speak er, my question is to the Prem ier. Would he concede th at wher e a dir ect quo tation is being made with respect to an official statute of Manitoba, namely

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act, in which the word "th ose" is replaced by the word "official," that that could be misleading to the persons who are receiving that letter? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Perhaps the honour able member would wish to reph rase 11is question so that it asks for information and not for an opinion. The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker , my question for the Premier is: What does he plan to do to ensure that all of the municipa lities who have received the letter that was sent and tabled here in the House today - more than 100 municipalities as I understand it to whom this letter has been sent - are not misled but are told as clearly as possible that there is an incorrect quotation with respect to

Section 23; that the word "those" should be replaced for the word "official" as shown in that letter that has been sent out? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speake r, certainly as I indicated ea rlier, there was a typographical error , which I assume full responsibility for insofar as the letter is concerned, and I will ensure that a corrected paragraph is forwarded to those that received the letter. Shoal lake - sewage disposal MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker , a further question to the First Minister.

What is the province planning to do in response to a letter which I believe the First Minister has received from Chief Herb Red sky of the Shoal Lake Indian Reserve rega rding their concerns about the improper disposal of domestic sewage at the Shoal Lake Indian Reserve? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I have not received the letter that the honourable member has made reference to. I have read a report in the newspaper this morning tha t a letter has been forwarded to me by Chief Redsky.

I will be examining that letter, but it is my understan ding insofar as the matters that are raised by Chief Redsky that they are of a federal nature 4398

Tuesday, 19 July, 1983 and ought not to be properly addressed to the Provincial Government. MR. G. FILMON: Can the First Minister confirm Chief Redsky's assertion that both the province and the Federal Government are in favour of compelling the City of Winnip eg to provide the band with a right-of­ way across a piece of land that they hold, in order to give them access to a potential for sewage disposal? HON. H. PAWLEY: The Minister responsible for Urban Affairs has had meetings with Chief Redsky, and the Minister of Urban Affairs will deal with that question. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . No, I can not confirm the allegations sugge sted by the Member for Tuxedo. The position of the province has been, in consultation with l.R . Band No. 40, the City of Winnipeg and the Federal Government, to find suitable solutions to the problems of sewage disposal and solid waste disposal on the l.R. 40 peninsula. The Federal Government has suggested a solution to that problem that would ha ve the sewage being trucked off the reserve onto possible Crown land sites inside the Manitoba bord er.

The City of Winnipeg, however , has sug gested an alternate way of disposing of the sewage and solid waste on site. The province's position is that it would assist all the parties to find a solution to the problems. We have not specifically said to the Federal Government or the Indian Band that we would do what is being suggested with respect to the road access over the canal that is owned by the City of Winnipeg. We have suggested that the Federal Government and the band deal directly with the City of Winnipeg with respect to the access over the city-owned and operated canal. Municipal information re budget MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Municipal Affa irs. HON. A. ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speak er, on July 11 th the Honour able Mem ber for Roblin- Russell asked a few questions in the Ho use. He's been absent for awhile, this is the first day that he's been back for me to respond while in his presence. He was asking the question as to whether or not the department has seen fit to instruct the municipal audit ors to mail certain letters out to the municipality in this province. The answer is, no, to that question, it is not an instruction by the Minister or the department.

The second question had to do with whether or not these letters, after they were received, were confidence of the auditor s, and the answer to that is, yes. Those letter remain in the files of the auditors themselves. A further question is, "Can I ask the Honourable Minister, again, do the municipalities in this province have to abide by these letters that are being sent out by municipal auditors?" The answer is that under

Section 607 of The Mu nicipal Act it implies that the auditor may ask for those letters. Traffic violations MR. SPEAK ER: The Ho nour able Memb er for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: My question is to the Minister of Government Services respo nsible for the provincial motor vehicle fleet, but in his absence I'll ask the First Minister. I wonder if he could inform the House how many instances there ha ve been of Pro vin cial Government employees that have been charged with traffic violations, paying tho se traffic violations with NSF cheques? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker , I'll take that question as notice. I don't know whether that information is readily available, but I'll take the question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Government Services. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, I wonder, while the First Minister is taking that as notice, if he might provide the House with the number of instances when this occurred.

It must be serious enough to cause the Mag istrate of the Court to write a letter saying, "I must advise you that the practice of issuing NSF cheques to this court by persons using provincial vehicles has become far too prevalent." I wonder if he could give the Hous e the numb er of instances where there have been NSF cheques from Provincial Government employees paying their fines? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speak er, first I would ask the honourable member to table that letter because I'm most interested in the contents of that letter and the allegations that are raised in the letter, so I would ask that the honourable member table the letter so that we can examine the allegations contained in it because they certainly are worthy of investigation and analysis. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Speaker , this has been circula ted by the Clerk of Internal Economy to all departments of the Legislature, so I imagine everyone over on that side got a copy because we certainly did.

I'll get this copied and see that the First Minister gets it within a few minutes. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speak er, I will certainly look into the allegations contained therein because they are certai nly worthy of investigation on our part. Hay-cutting rights MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for La Verendr ye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker , I direct a question to the Acting Minister of Mines or the Acting Minister of Agricultu re, and I would ask the Minister in charge, that's act ing in the capacity of either Agriculture or Natural Resour ces, to inform the House whether farmers who have been given the hay -cutting rights on the Winnipeg Floodw ay, whether or not they have been told this week that they cannot cut down to the waters edge and th at the y mu st leave a 4399

Tuesday, 19 July, 1983 substantial strip of the much-needed feed uncut and unused? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corp orate Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, I'll take that question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Agriculture and report back as soon as I get an an swer. MR. R.

BANMAN: To the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, I wonder if he could also check when this policy change was implemented and, in light of the shor tage of the forage crops being experienced by some farmers, would the government review this policy so that these farmers would be enabled to take this hay right to the waters edge.

I would ask the Minister to try and get back to the Legislature as quickly as possible since it is now haying time and the farmers are in the process of cutting that hay, and whether we couldn't move on this quite quickly to help these farmers who are experiencing some shor tages in feed at this time of the year? Gasoline prices - Manitoba HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, I'll take that second question as notice and try to provide an answer as expeditiously as possible.

While I'm on my feet I would like to respond to a question that was raised by the Member for Roblin -Rus sell last Tuesday in respect to recent gasoline price increases. The question was raised as to what were the reasons for the increases and some reference made as to whether it was provincial or federal taxes?

I would like to inform the House that, according to the oil companies contacted, the increases were not due to any increased federal or provincial taxes, that the increases occurred for two reasons: There was a Canada-wide increase in the wholesale price of gasoline of .5 cents per litre; and secondly, there was a desire to increase dealers' margins and thereby reduce or elimi nate price support provided by the oil companies during the periods of depressed retail prices that made up that difference.

In rural Manitoba there have also been some price increases; you will note that the prices ha ve decreased somewhat in Winnipeg. In rural Manitoba there were increased wholesale and retail prices in most areas and there are four basic reasons for these increases. The first reason, that some locations where dealers were receiving price support prior to the increase the amount of increase was greater than at locations where price support was not being provided; secondly, there is a time-lag factor, that is, the increases did not occur with all companies at the same time at all locations, nor within a location.

This would give the appearance of some dealers having a price increase while others did not; third ly, at locations near the Saskatchewan and U.S. borders price increases are lower due to the lower gasoline prices existent in those jurisdictions; fourthly , local levels of price competition have resulted in smaller increases being accepted by the market at some locations than at others. I believe this is true in southern Manitoba, I'm aware of one location where recently a 4400 Petrocan station was opened and it coincidentally occurred that the other oil companies dropped their prices to meet Petrocan's price.

MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKE R: The Honour able Government House Leader . HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker , would you first call the adjourned debate on third reading for Bill 15, and then the second readings on 98, 99, 100 and 101. Followed, Sir, by the adjourned debates on 48 and 55. I've given you the sequence on other bills that follow, 74, 105, 110 and 3. ADJOURNED DEBATE ON nmm READING MR. SPEA KER: On the pro pos ed motion of the Honourable Minister of Highways, the third reading of Bill 15. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C.

MANNESS: Stand, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: We've decided to allow this bill to proceed to a vote. MR. SPEAKER: Then the honourable member does not wish it to stand? QUESTION put, MOTION carried. SECOND READING - GOVERNMENT BILLS Bill as - THE QUEEN'S BENCH ACT HON. R. PENNER presented Bill No. 98,

An Act to amend The Queen's Bench Act and to repeal The County Courts Act, The Surrogate Courts Act and The County Court Judges' Criminal Cour ts Act and to amend The Municipal Boundaries Act; Loi Modifiant la

loi sur la Cour du Banc de la Reine, abrogeant la

loi sur les Cours de compte, la

loi sur les Tribinaux des successions et al

loi sur les Cours criminelles de compte, et modifiant la

loi sur les limites municipales, for second read ing. MOTION presented. SPEAKER: Bill No. 98, the Honourable Attorney­ General. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speak er, just a general preface. Bills 98, 99, 100 and 101 are all related to the proposed merger of the Court of Queen's Bench as it is presently styled and the County Courts of Manitoba. I should say before giving some particulars by way of explanation, that all of these bills have been very closely vetted by the Chief Justice of the Court of Queen's Bench and a committee of his judges and by

Tuesday, 19 July, 1983 the other judges affected and have been greatly assisted by suggestions made by the Chief Jus tice in his capacity, of course, as adminis trator of that court as well as in his capacity as Chie f Justice. I want to assure members of the House that it has the concurrence in that respect of meeting their technical questions of the judges of the courts affected. Bill 98 is the chief piece of legislation which will merge the county court system in Manitoba into the Cour t of Queen's Bench.

The bill enlarges the bench of the Queen's Bench to accommoda te the numb er of judges presently in the County Courts of Manitoba and there is parallel Federal legislation which was passed towards the end of June in The Federal Judges Act, since these jud ges are federally appointed, which ma kes this possible. There are provisions in the bill to require at least three judges of the court to reside outside of the City of Winnipeg area. This is to provide a level of court services in the areas of the province outside Winnipeg at approxi mately the same level as is the case today.

I should say here, parenthetical ly, that the present county court judges, Brandon, Portage la Prairie and Dauphin, will become Queen's Bench Judges and will continue to reside where they presently are. The bill of course provides for the repeal of the County Court's Act because these courts will no longer exist. It also provides for the repeal of The Surr ogate Courts Act because The Surroga te Courts Act was dependent on county court judg es to serve the Surrogate Court.

The practice which previously was looked after in the Surroga te Courts of the province will now have to be looked after in the Court of Queen's Bench in the same way as county court practice will be looked after in the Court of Queen's Bench. So we will have one superior court of federally appoi nted judges with complete jurisdiction in all areas. The bill also provides for the repeal of The County Court Judges' Criminal Courts Act again because we no longer will have any county court judges to staff the County Court Judges' Criminal Courts.

In addition to the merger of the county court into the Queen's Bench, the bill also abolishes the judicial districts, then effectively as was the case in Alberta and Saskatchewan where the merger has already taken place, we will operate with one judicial district. This will create some change in the practice in the Queen's Bench particularly with respect to the filing of pleadings. Some of the provisions of The Municipal Bounda ries Act are repealed to achieve the abolishment of the judicial districts.

Another minor change being made by this bill is the change in the title of prothono tary - a word that most people can't get their tongues around - and Deputy Clerks of the Crown and Pleas, they will henceforth be known as Registrars and Deputy Registrars of the Court of Queen's Bench. Hereto we are following practice that has already developed in other jurisdictions. In addition to those there are other minor matters de alt with.

For exam ple, the provision of the appointment of a senior master and a senior referee providing that Provincial Family Court Judges will be - that should be may be - really ex officio masters and referees of the court.

I say "may be" because whether or not they sit ex officio as masters and referees of the court - and that would be the family division of the merged court - will depend first of all on the willingness of any of the provincial judges to sit in that capaci ty, and whether the administrators of the Court of Queen's Bench, the Chief Justice of the Court of Queen's Bench and the Associate Chief Justices requir e that service. (

c) Authority to designa te judicial centres for various purposes. For example, places for trials with jury, places for trials without jury. In fact, Sir, there will now be an increase in the number of judicial centres making the services of the court more readily available to citizens of Manitoba. Authority to designa te ad ministrative centres for the adminis trative work of the court, the judicial centres are those places where trials, whether civil or criminal, may be he ld. The ad ministrative centres are greater in numb er.

It is thought 12 judicial centres and about 16 adminis trative centres so that there is a wider number of places in which pleadings may be filed. A change removing refe renc e to sten ographic reporters and simply referring to them as reporters, because reporting is done by a variety of mechanical means now. Removal of provisions respecting the practice relating to the public trustee of the province which these provisions will be moved into The Public Trustee Act. Authority for the judges to establish divisions of the court for the disposal of various kinds of classes of business in the court.

This is to allow divisions to be established for small debts, surrogate practice etc., will not interfere with the statutory family division of the court being established under another bill before this House. There are, of course, some transitional provisions dealing with acti ons in the count y court and the surrogate court at the time the act is proclaimed. It is intended that the actions will continue with as little disruption as possible. I should say, Mr.

Speak er, that although this bill is presented for passage in this Session, it is done with the view to Proclamation and the beginning of the new merged court as of July 1st, 1984, but considerable lead time is needed with respect to forms, a careful purview of the rules by the judges of the court and a numb er of other steps of that kind, which will have to be taken so that when the merger actually takes place, it will take place, we trust, smoothly and without any disruption.

The Chief Justice of the Court of Queen's Bench, together with the present prothono tary and the Director of Court Servic es have travelled to Saska tchewan and Alberta and are able to draw on the experience of these jurisdictions where a merger has taken place. I should say, Sir, that this merger of courts which were created in that way, split jurisdictions between two levels of federally-appointed courts, is one that is now taking place throughout Canada. We will not be, by any means, the last of the provinces to do this, but we are part of a stream of provinces merging those courts.

I recommend this bill to the House. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: I move, seconded by the Member for Sturgeon Creek, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. 4401

Tuesday, 19 July, 1983 BILL NO. 99 -THE COURT OF QUEEN 'S BENCH SMALL CLAIMS PRACT ICES ACT HON. R. PENNER presented Bill No. 99, The Court of Queen's Bench Small Claims Practices Act;

Loi sur le recouvrement des petites creances a la Cour du Banc de la Reine, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, this essentially re­ enacts

Part 2 of The County Courts Act which dealt with the procedures in small claims; that is, claims under $1 ,000.00. There are a numb er of minor changes in the wording, but the main intent is to transfer the small claims practice presently in place in the County Courts of Manitoba to the Queen's Bench, following the merger of the County Courts into the Queen's Bench. This bill does not carry out the recom mendations of the Law Raform Commission with respect to small claims procedures.

It is merely a transfer of the County Court provisions into the new adminis trative setup that is being propos ed , so th at it can be properly adminis tered through the Queen's Bench. I, previou sly, in answer to questions asked by the Member for St.

No rbert, I believe either in the House or in committee during Estima tes, did say to him that we were not moving with respect to any of the recommendations of the Law Reform Commis sion on small claims at this time because of the complex ity, adminis tratively , of carrying out the merger and I didn't think it appropria te to try and do anything with respect to small claims at the same time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: I move, seconded by the Member for Sturgeon Creek, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried.

BILL 100 -THE COURT OF QUEE N'S BENCH SURROGATE PRACTICE ACT HON. R. PENNER presented Bill No. 100, The Court of Queen's Bench Surrogate Practice Act;

Loi sur la pratique relative aux successions devant la Gour du Banc de la Reine, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, this bill will enact the practice provisions of the Su rrogate Cou rts as a separate act so that the practice can be carried on in the Queen's Bench and that, of course, will be the merged Queen's Bench. This necessitated a numb er of minor changes of wording, but essentially there is no change in principle. It is solely a vehicle for transferring the jurisdiction to the Queen's Bench with as little change in practice as possible.

The intent is that actions and proceedings presently in the Surrogate Court as it is styled, will continue in the Queen's Bench and that they can be proceeded with in almost precisely the same manner as previously . There is one area of change, and that is that the provisions presently in The Surrogate Court Act dealing with the public trustee, are not carried over into the new bill. These will be transferred where they belong to The Public Trustee Act, so that they will be uniform for all types of practice.

Previously there were minor differences between the Surroga te Court provisions and the Queen's Bench provisions, but these differences will now no longer exist, and I recommend this bill to the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speake r, I move, seconded by the Member for Sturgeon Creek, tha t de bate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. BILL 10 1 -AN ACT TO AMEND VARIOUS ACTS OF THE LEGI SLATURE TO FACILIT ATE THE REORGANIZATION AND EXPANSION OF THE COURT OF QUEEN'S BENCH HON. R. PENNER presented Bill No. 101,

An Act to amend Various Acts of the Legislature to facilitate the Reorganization and Expansion of the Court of Queen's Bench, for second read ing. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker , this bill is virtually like a statute law amendment bill.

Ho wever, it contains a numb er of provisions which relate solely to the changes required as a result of abolishing the judicial districts, and changing the title of "prothono tary" to "registrar" and the title of "Deputy Clerk of Crown and Pleas" to "Deputy Registrar." It does not contain very many provisions relating to the references to County Courts and Surrogate Courts or The County Courts Act or Surrogate Courts Act throughout the statutes. However, reference to judicial districts in the statutes in many cases req uired special consideration, because nothing was being substituted for the judicial districts.

In addition, there are some amendments to The Public Trustee Act which transfer into The Public Trustee Act the provisions relating to service and procedural matters of that kind on the public trustee, and the capacity of the public trustee as, what is called in law, a next friend 4402

Tuesday, 19 July, 1983 and guardian of infants which were previously contained in The Queen's Bench Act, in The County Courts Act and The Surrogate Courts Act and they will now be transferred to The Public Trustee Act. I recommend this bill to the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Memb er for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , I move, seconded by the Member for Lakeside, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. ADJOURNED DEBATE ON SECOND READING - PUBLIC BILLS Bill NO. 48 - THE ELECTION FINANCES ACT MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mem ber for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr.

Speak er. I just wanted to make one or two comments in connection with this bill. If it would be all right with other members of the Hous e, I would just as soon leave the air conditioner on, and I will try and be heard abo ve it. Oh, the other one's on. Russ is going to have to listen very carefu lly for what I have to say here. Mr. Speaker , on Bill 48 we on this side of the House can see no great rush to push this bill through with such haste, as appears to be the will of members opposite.

We expect there won't be an election for a year or two, and there is ample time to give the bill a little study and a little more detai l. But, Mr. Speaker , the bill before us is a very very lengthy and detailed bill on The Elections Finances Act, which we know is a very important act but there are so many things in there, and I am not going to take time to speak at any great length on this because th ere are speakers following me that will have a numb er of things to say, and will say it in far more eloquent and forceful terms than I might use.

But there are so many sections of this bill that are absolutely unacceptable to members on this side of the Ho use, Mr. Speaker , and th ose of us that have been in politics through a num ber of elections have been able to finance them with some difficult y, but it means a little more effort on the part of your working campaign and we ha ve come through it quite successfully. But in the new act - I just have gone through it in a cursory manner - but there are sections in there that some little old lady that happens to support me won't be able to dona te a cake to my campaign any more unless it's all recorded.

Those people that come to your general meetings, or your nomina ting meetings and want to support you in some way won't be able to throw a $10 bill in the hat any more. There are some people who don't wish to have their donation recorded, and don't wish to ha ve their name shown, that might give you $50 or $75, that's not going to be allowed any more. The constituency officers are going to ha ve a terrible job maintaining records from little break fasts, or small fund-raising dinners that we may have, things of that nature are just going to be so difficult for them to control.

The bill also provides great powers to the gove rning body in saying who will be a candida te, who will be a registered political par ty, and who won't be. A great number of thin gs in the bill, Mr. Deputy Speaker , that we just can't support on this side of the Hous e and, as I said earli er, I don't see what the rush is. I know members opposite were going to say, well the federal government has similar legislation and they get part of their election expenses back, and that might be the case.

I know there are federal constituencies that have fairly substantial bank accounts, and I don't think that is the criteria of legislation to provide any assistance to elections. But the members have brought this forward, Mr. Speaker , time and time again, that here is just another hand into the taxpayers pocket to finance elections.

Where they have been done in the past number of years on a volun tary basis , and it's been qu ite satisfacto ry, and the argument that they use about the little fellow with no resources is not going to be able to take his proper role in actively participating in political parties, or political elections. I just don't think that holds water, Mr. Speake r, because whoever he may be that is interested in running for political office, and is interested in seeking a nomina tion will naturally have the support of the party he's running for and of those that have worked for the party for a number of years.

So those arguments just don't hold water, Mr. Speak er. Fund-raising drives have always been part of election party programs. They may organize a door -to-door canvass on a fund- raising pro gram, or th ey may organize a mailing campaign for political donations. Those have all been handled on a voluntary basis before, and they have been very very successful, and I don't think any candida te has gone wanting for a lack of funds to carry on his political activities. So, Mr.

Speak er, the sections of this act, when it gets into committee, if it gets that far, are going to be examined very very closely because there's many many sections in this act that are just unacceptable to members on this side of the Hous e. I, more particular ly, refer to the amount of recording and the amount of detailed bookkeeping that is going to have to be done now in record ing the names of donor s, the recording of receipts and the issuing of receipts, something that is totally unnecessary in our view, Mr. Speaker .

The fact that the taxpa yer is now going to be asked to finance a heavy load of election expenses, where it has been done on a volu ntary basis in the past, is just not acceptable. I know a number of people in my constituency will object very strongly to financing a portion of my election campaign, and that is fair ball. They don't dona te to it; they don't get asked to dona te to it; and that's their right.

I know members opposite have blinders on when it comes to this because the unions kick into their party without any feeli ng, or any regard for those that may be members of the union that might not want to contribute to any political party, and particularly not theirs. They just don't have a chance to refuse that donation. - (Interjection) - The Member for Thompson is saying, no, no. I know of instances in their party where union dues will be 4403

Tuesday, 19 July, 1983 refunded to any member working in that group - (Interjection) - Mr. Speaker , if the Member for lnkster would shut up and listen for awhile he might learn something, instead of babbling all the damn time and upsetting what is going on. You can get up and speak on it afterwards when I am finished. Tight now I'm speak ing, so you shut up. If I was yapping all the time like you I might not object to it, but I only speak once in awhile. Now, Mr. Speaker , I know of instances ... MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, P. Eyler: Order please. The Mem ber for lnkster on a point of ord er. MR. D. SCO TT: Mr .

Sp eak er, the Mem ber for Min nedosa is making allega tions on how unio ns contribute to political parties. Unions ha ve resolutions and they can only contribute to political parties on the basis of their by-laws. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. Order . The Member for lnkster does not have a point of ord er. It may be a point of clarification but it is not a point of or der. The Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Spea ker.

I know of instances where union dues, when the vote has been made to make the contribution to the New Democratic Par ty, the mem bers that ha ve objected to that have been told that they can fill in a little certificate and that portion of their funds would not be forwarded to the NOP Party. Within two days of requesting a refund of their contributions, Mr.

Speaker , they were visited by the shop steward, or the union leader, whatever it may be, pointing out to them the folly of their ways, that this was the only party that might provide some help to the working person; and if they really knew what was good for them they wouldn't fool around and cause these problems. That, Mr.

Speaker , gave them the indication that their job might be in a little jeopardy and rather than requesting it in future they just said, forget it, let them go to the party and they went out maybe and worked a little bit harder for the Liberals or the Conservatives, or wha tever party they were working for, other than the one across the way. But, Mr. Speaker, those tactics like that and indications in statutes that cause actions like that are foreign to our way of life and to our political process as we have known it, and this bill, all it is going to do is further actions of that nature.

Where the taxpa yer is picking up half the bill, he is not going to be happy with a great many things in this act if he had had an opportunity to read through it and to vote on it. The members opposite are taking a great deal of leeway with the manda te, small as it was, that they received in the last election. They didn't receive a manda te to dip into the taxpayers' pocket for things of this nature; it wasn't mentioned during the election campaign; it wasn't mentioned that they were going to have another language foisted on them.

These things I don't think come with the mandate that the people opposite received in the last election, Mr. Speaker, so for those reasons and many many other reasons we will not be supporting this bill in its full intent. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: I rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker . I do so at the first opportunity that is available to me, having just read Hansard of Monday, 18 July , 1983. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speak er, may I just interrupt on another point of order. If no one else intends to take the adjournment then I may either speak now or adjourn.

I don't kn ow wher e this other ma tter is standing. The member just concluded the debate, and perhaps what I'll do is speak, but I will yield the floor to the Leader of the Official Opposition, also indicating my intention to either speak or adjourn, depending on what happens now. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Hono urable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker , my point of order arises from Hansard of Monda y, July 18, 1983, specifically, Pages 4378 and 4379 thereof, wherein the English Translation of the speech made by the Honourable Member for Radisson appears and if somebody will wake up the member perhaps he will be attentive to his duties, more so than he is at the present time. Mr. Speaker , I quote the offending words from the English Translation - this is on the right hand column on Page 4378: "Mr. Speak er, these are, therefore, necessarily the specific and limited rights which are granted in this resolution concerning the use of French.

We have to ensure that these limited rights are a part of an amendment to the Canadian Constitution in order that persons like the Leader of the Opposition do not, again, bring down upon us such setbacks as we had in 1980" - I presume that is a legitimate typographical, I presume it was meant to be 1890 -"and 1916, in order that our rights are not diminished to privile ges which obli ge us to live in fear and conflict - (lnterjectior1) - let me finish my sentence first - nor that our rights be subject to the political moods of the day." Then he goes on, "To answer the concern of the Member from St.

Norb ert, I did not accuse the Leader of the Opposition, I said, that in order that such a thing does not happen, either through the Leader of the Opposition or by anyone else in the future." And there is another quote that I will bring up, Mr. Speaker .

But, first of all, I wish to place on the record my incredulity at reading that kind of shallo w nonsense, that kind of shallo w emotional nons ens e from a su pposedly honourable member of this Ho use, who so fails to understand an issue that is at the heart of this province's hic lory, and he, particularly he, as a Francophone rv1.1nitoban should know better than to make that kind of statement. Long before he was in this House, Mr.

Speaker , long before this House had to put up with the likes of him, we were, as a responsible government, carrying on with the responsibility that had been given to us, after the Forest case was brought down, in order to give effect to the rule of law, as pronounced by the Supreme Court of Canada in the Forest case. Mr. Speake r, I lay on the table of the Hous e, for the benefit of the Member for Radisson, a copy of Hansard, 4404

Tuesday, 19 July, 1983 Page 2002, Monda y, April 7, 1980, in which , as the First Minister of Manitoba, I annou nced the initial reaction of the government to programs that we would be implementing as a government in order to give effect to the Forest case.

I also call to the attention of the vacuous mind of the Member for Radisson, the exhibits that were tabled by his own Attorney-General just a few days ago, when he spoke in introducing this resolution, in an attempt, albeit a patently flat attempt, to em barrass this pol itical party and the official opposition, tried to point out all of the things that we had been doing as a matter of government policy to give effect to some enla rgement of language services in Manitoba. - (I nterjection) - The honourable member doesn't know a point of order, Mr. Speak er, from a bison; let him sit down.

Let the mem ber sit down and listen. He's an embarrassment to this House and to this province. When I finish with him he may not want to stay around. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. A point of order cannot be raised on a point of ord er. The Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: And I say, Mr. Speak er, from my feet what I've just said from my Chair , let the Honourable Member for Radisson, if has the guts, sit here and take his cowardly medicine instead of trying to skivver out from under the words that he uttered in Hansard the other day, and which were translated, and which we've only just now seen. Mr .

Sp eak er, we can judge something about the character and the integrity of this honourable member by read ing back again, just what I've read to the Hou se. In one paragraph he says, Mr. Speake r, "ir. order that persons like the Leader of the Opposition do not again bring down upon us such setba cks"; and then when he's qu estioned about it, Mr. Speaker , one paragraph later he changes his tune because he's a coward. He changes his tune, Mr. Speaker, and says, "let me finish my sentence. To answer the concern of the Mem ber from St. Norb ert, I did not accuse the Leader of the Oppositi on." He did, indeed, Mr.

Speak er, accuse the Leader of the Opposition, and he'll take his medicine in this House as any other honourable member will, or he'll get out, or we'll ha ve him thrown out of this House. Members are being thrown out of this House today, Mr. Speaker, because they bring to the attention of the First Minister that he is not telling the truth in his letters.

What kind of degradation has this Hous e fallen into when a mem ber, like the Member for Radisson, a shallow vacuous person, can stand in his place and make this kind of indecent comment without knowing anything about the province's histo ry, without knowing anything about what was done with respect to the Forest case in 1979? Mr. Speake r, my final point from that speech is this: He goes on to say, Mr. Speaker, "it's a point of order pointing out when members are misleading the House, as honourable mem bers opposite do far too often.

They've made this House a place where integrity is a stranger - (Interjection) - and, Mr. Speaker, I don't need any instruction from the member of the backwoods of The Pas about integrity. He's going to be back in the woods in The Pas after the next election so I think he'd better keep his peace, too. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. If the Leader of the Opposition has a point of order I wish he would express it a bit more concisely. HON. S. LYON: I'll get around to that, Mr. Spea ker. The second paragraph of what he said offensiv ely, in the transla ted portion, is on Page 4379.

Listen to this for misinformation, Mr. Speak er. "Ha d they wished," referring to the Franco-Manitobans, "to push this matter to the limit they could ha ve stubbornly insisted that all the laws and statutes previously" - Mr. Speak er, have we not had enough Marxist interjections in this House today from that man? HON. R. PENNER: If there is a point of order it should be stated so you can rule as to whether or not there is a point of order .

If this becomes merely the vehicle for the Leader of the Opposition, who cannot contain hims elf, that's obvious, to make a speech tha t is outside of the busine ss of the House that is being called, then that is exceedingly impr oper and not to be allowed. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Does the Leader of the Opposition wish to express his point of order in a concise manner? HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speak er, the second point of order in two paragraphs.

The second point of order, he's talking about the Francophones in Mani toba, he said "they could have stubbornly insisted that all the laws and statutes previously adopted be translated ." Listen to this, Mr. Spea ker, "they could have demanded that all government institutions provide them with complete services in both languages, as is the case in Quebec, or in Ne w Bru nswi ck. Rather , the Francophone collectivity of Manitoba has negotiated in good faith for a reasonable comprom ise. Should we not, today, as the government, show an equal amount of good faith and be rea sonable as wel l?" MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I merely point out that that is a complete misstatement of fact. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. Could the Leader of the Opposition please state why those words are a point of order, we've all had the benefit of listening to the Member for Radisson's spee ch, could the Member for Charleswood please state in what manner tho se words are a point of order? HON. S. LYON: First of all, Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Member for Radisson, who is not very honourable, imputed motives to me, as Leader of the Opposition in this House saying, in effect, Sir, that the Francophone communi ty had to be protected from the Leader of the Opposition. That will not be tolerated, no matter whether you are a Marxist here or not. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. All members of this Hous e are considered honourable, Mr. Member 4405

Tuesday, 19 July, 1983 for Char leswood, all memb ers of this Ho use are hono urable. That sort of language will not be tol erated in this Cham ber. HON. S. LYON: Neither will this, Mr. Speaker, and that's why I'm on my feet because I don't need any half­ baked Member for Radisson telling me, or imputing motives to me, about what our government did with respect to French language services in this province, and I will not ha ve it, Mr. Spea ker.

If he wants to have this point of order followed by a point of privilege with a motion attached to it, that his words go to the Privileges and Elections Comm ittee I'll get it together right aw ay, and let him then stand before th at commi ttee, under oath, and repeat that statement, and repeat the statement I've just read on the back. The statement I read on the back about how the Francophone commu nity could ha ve impo sed government services on Manitobans; they couldn't have, Mr. Speaker , because the opinion of Kerr Twaddle is there to rebut that.

So I bring to your attention, Sir, the fact th at this mem ber has made two false statements, and I ask him to withdr aw those statements, otherwise this will be followed by a motion of privilege. MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Acting House Leader on a point of ord er. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, Mr.

Speaker , that is not a point of order, it is clearly not a point of order, it is an abuse of the privile ges of this House to bring in aspects of the debate which the honourable member can, in a proper time, address as I'm sure he will, with respect to his thr eat that he will - since he think s he commands this House - that he will then immedia tely bring in a point of privilege. He well kno w that a point of privilege must be brought in at the earliest possible time; that Ha nsard has been avai labl e to mem bers for a considerable period of time. HON. S. LYON: We just got it. HON. R.

PENNER: No, you cannot, in the middle of government business that has been called, out of nowhere, other than a fit of temper, and the kind of temper tantrum which is demonstrated again to the people of Manitoba how unfit that person is to even be in this Hous e, that cannot be the su bject of debate at this time. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norb ert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker , I ask you, Sir, to consider the quotation which the Honourable Leader of the Opposition read on Page 4378 of Hansard, which was only available to us this after noon, and consider whether or not the Member for Radisson was imputing motives in the paragraph read by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Deputy Speaker , I submit that it is clear that he was, and that a withd rawal or an apology is in order. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: The Member for Radisson. MR. G.

LECUYER: After hearing this long dia tribe, and I've read what the Leader of the Opposition said in his speech, and all I'm stating here - and first of all I would like to point out the fact that this should not be 1980, but 1890. Somebody in 1890, and somebody in 1916, introduced those acts and all I'm saying is that what we're asking that these be entrenched so that no one, nor the Leader of the Opposition, can repeat these actions, again. That's all that that says, it doesn't state that you have done it. So to make sure that it had not been interpreted that way I went on to say to the Member for St.

Norb ert, who did not ask a question, who just was mumbling in his place, I said to answer the concern, because I presume there was some from the Member for St. Norbert; I did not accuse the Leader of the Opposition, I said that in order that such things do not happen again, neither through the Leader of the Opposition, or by anyone else in the future. So I did not imply anything to the Leader of the Opposition I merely reiterated the fact that these things happened in 1890; they happened in 1916, and we're asking that they be entrenched so that not you, nor anybody else, can do those things again.

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! A MEMBER: Only you and Ronald Reagan were around in 1890. MR. G. LECUYER: As far as the comments on Page 4379, had they wished, in this negotiation that went on and after the Supreme Court decision of 1979, I say, had they wished they could have pushed this matter to the limit, they could have stubbornly insisted that all the la ws and statutes previ ously adop ted be translated. Doesn't the leader understand that in the agreement they are not insisting that all these statutes be transalated. - (Interjection) - I'm going to, give me time.

They could have demanded that all government institutions provide them with complete services in both languages, as is the case in Quebec and in New Brunswick. I say they could have in the negotiations; they did not. In the negotiations they could have insisted that these be the case; they gave up these points. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition to the same point. HON. S. LYON: If he has any honour will he withd raw those phony comments that he made the other day in French? MR. G. LECUYER: I did not impute any motives, Mr.

Speaker , I have no comments to withd raw, as far as I'm concerned I stand by ever ything that's in there. HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr. Speaker , the member has thereby demonstrated he has no honour; he'll never be called honourable by me. A MEMBER: Well, you didn't call him honourable before, did you? MR. SPEAKER: The Member for lnkster to the same point. 4406

Tuesday, 19 July, 1983 MR. D. SCOTT: Yes, Mr. Speaker , to the same point of ord er. If the leader of the Opposition . . . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Member for lnkster. MR . D. SC OTT: Thank you, Mr . Sp eak er. The qu ota tions tha t the Leader of the Opposition is attempting to refer to herein today. When he is talking about attitudes of persons, and if the Leader of the Opposition wishes to link him self with those previous attitudes, he is doing a very good job of it.

When he refers to the Member for Radisson as a zealot fool; when he refers to the Member for Radisson as Kermit the frog; when he tells him to go back and get on his lilypad ... SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please, order please, order . Would the Member for lnkster address his points to the specific point of order and not wan der significantly from that particular point? MR. D. SCOTT: Mr. Speaker , in repetition of my point, the Leader of the Opposition has the right to quote from the Member of Radisson's speech that he was imputing motiv es on him.

Those motiv es, if they are considered to be impu ted by the Member for Radisson on the Leader of the Opposition, I am just saying that he is unduly sensitive from his comments that he has put forward to the Member for Radisson of being a zealot fool and Kermit the frog. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I would like to thank all members of the House for their contributions in this issue. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker , I distinctly heard from my seat the MLA for Thomp son use profanity in this House. There was no question that he used profanity in this House and I wish, Mr.

Deputy Speaker , that you would ask the ML A for Thompson to withd raw his profane remarks and apologize to the House. A MEMBER: Here! Here! MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Mr. Deputy Speaker , I know in the heat of the exchanges here I made some reference to the Leader of the Opposition. I will be quite happy to withdraw them. I would only hope that the Leader of the Opposition would extend the same cou rtesy to the many people on this side of the House that he's insulted time in and time out. MR. D. ORCHARD : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker , I distinctly heard the ML A for lnkster indicate that members of this House referred to another member of this House as Kermit the frog. I wish he would withd raw those remarks because no such name calling was done in this Ho use. No member in this House referred to any member of this House as Kermit the frog and I wish he would withd raw that remark. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: Mr. Speaker, I cannot withd raw a com ment that the Mem ber for Pembina repeats sometimes 15 times in 10 minutes.

He does it constantly from his Chair and if Hansard hasn't picked it up, it is not for me to refute the words from the Member for Pembina. He does it constantly incessantly, Mr. Speak er, and it shows you the racious tone and the bigo try that belies upon that man. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Matter of Privilege, Mr. Deputy Speaker . The ML A for lnkster has indicated that on numerous occasions in the last 10 minutes, and at other times, that I have referred . . MR. D. SCOTT: Many times. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Deputy Speaker , the ML A for lnkster has indicated that I have referred to one of his colleagues as Kermit the frog. I have not done that, and I wish that he would withd raw those remarks, apolo gize to me; or, Mr. Deputy Speak er, you will be, of necessity, naming the Member for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: Mr.

Speak er, for the Member for Pembina , or any member in this Hous e, from his constant heckling that he giv es from his corner, from his side of the seat, directly to the Member for Radisson, to myself, and to other members from this Hous e, if Hansard has not deemed fit to pick up many of the slurs that he throws from his seat, I say it is to the credit of the people from Hansard in deleting those comments as are picked up in interjection mikes. I will not withd raw a comment that that member has put forward in this House numerous times, Mr. Spea ker, countless times.

If he wishes to withd raw remarks, he is the one that should stand and apologize to the Member for Radisson and to other members in this Hous e. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Rules of this House refer specifically to the language used in debate. If these words are not on the record they are not used in debate. The Member for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: Mr. Speaker , I am sad to say that I cannot withd raw remarks that I have heard no less than a hundr ed times from the Member for Pembina.

If the House so desir es to discipline me then I will certainly accept the ruling of this House; but I shall not, Mr. Speaker, withd raw comme nts, be they on the record or off the re cord, th at th at mem ber ha s made incessantly. It is time, Mr. Speak er, that the members of this House be accounted, not only for when they're on their feet, but also for the slurs and the attacks that they throw from their chairs. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker , will the ruling of the Chair be sustained, or not? MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Ho use Leader . 4407

Tuesday, 19 July, 1983 HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker , first of all, the Member for lnks ter tho ught th at he heard someone say something. That, in itself, is not an unparli amentary use of langua ge; there is nothing to withdra w. The Member for Pem bina says that he didn't say that; let that be whatever his opinion is, whatever the opinion of the Member for lnkster, let that stand. I would appeal, through you, Mr. Speaker , to members of the House to get on with the business of the House.

It's clear that if there was ever a time when the air conditioner was needed, either to cool us or to drown out some of the noise from the backgrou nd, on both sides of the Hous e, it was now. Can't we get on with the business of the House? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speak er, I think it's quite clear what the disagreement is. The Mem ber for lnkster is alleging that certain remarks were made by the Member for Pembina. Whether he said that or not to me is not the question.

He is referring to comments that were not made in debate, that were made off the record, and th ose are not a matter for discussion in this Hous e. ML As make remarks in the halls, they make them in private conversa tion, they heckle each oth er. If th ose are not, in fact, made on the record they do not count and, although it maybe difficult for the Member for lnkster to accept that, and infuriating, whether what he said is true of not, the fact of the matter is that anything that is said by any member of the House that is not on the official record is, therefore, basically not debatable. MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Deputy Speaker , the Member for lnkster is on the record this afternoon accusing me of referring to a member of his caucus as Kermit the frog. I have made no such reference to his mem ber, whoever that member may be; he must withdraw his allegations and the accusa tions that are on the printed record agains t me or, Mr. Deputy Speaker , he must withd raw from this House. MR. DE PUTY SPEAK ER: Order ple ase.

The rule specifically states that statements made by members regarding their own specific actions or statements must be accepted at face value by other mem bers of this Hous e. The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. D. SC OTT: Well, Mr . Speaker , in is imminently clear to members on this side who sit within 30 feet of this memb er that he has made that allegation countless times. Since it is not on the record, Mr. Speaker ... MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. Is the member prepared to withd raw? MR. D. SCOTT: I am continuing, Mr. Speak er. Since it is not on the record, Mr. Speaker, I will withdraw the comment.

But, Mr. Speaker , in that I would suggest to you that we instruct Hansard, if you wish this, to pick up more of the comments that come across this floor. For Hansard not to have heard his scream ing time and time again across this House - I'm referring to the Member for ... MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. Occasions such as this are not the time for making speeches. A clear statement of withd rawal will suffice. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Deputy Speak er, the ML A for lnkster made a provisional withdr awal. That is not acceptable to myself and, I trust, Mr.

Deputy Speaker , that's not acceptable to the House. I would ask the ML A for lnkster to make an unequivocal withd rawal of allegations which are not correct that he has made against me. SPEAKER'S RULING MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: With respect to the Member for Pembina's last point of order, I would rule that the Mem ber for ln kster ha s withd rawn his remark sufficiently for the purposes of this House. With respect to the Leader of the Opposition's original point of order, I would like to thank all members for their contributions to that point of order. The specific passages will be reviewed in Ha nsard.

Certain considerations will be made as to whether or not the simu ltaneous translation wou ld, in fact, differ greatly from the written Hansard translation as to whether or not that would constitute, at this particular time, the earliest convenience for raising a point of order. The ma tter will be dealt with. I will take th at un der advisement. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker , a speech had just concluded by the Honourable Member for Minnedosa on Bill 48, Election Finances.

Unless anyone else wishes to speak, I would move, seconded by the Honourable Member for The Pas, that the debate be adjourned. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speak er, I'm prepared to speak on Bill 48. I welcome the opportun ity, Mr. Speak er, - yes, Mr. Speaker , let's turn on the fans. It will improve some of the atmosphere in the House perhaps if we do.

There has been a rather putrid odour coming over to this side of the House from the government side all afternoon as a result of misstatements, misinformation that have been coming from the First Minister, the House Leader , the Mem ber for lnks ter, the Memb er for Radisson and so on. I think the people of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, are getting a very good idea of the quality and th e honour and the lack of in teg rity of this government just from today's activities.

As the days roll on, that will become even more manif est as all of their shortcomings are brought to light, as they will be brought to light and as I intend to do on this bill to point out what kind of ini qui tous legisla tion this government is capable of bringing in. 4408

Tuesday, 19 July, 1983 Mr. Speake r, in 19 80, the first major move was made to update election finances law in this province. Prior thereto, in the Sch reyer NDP Government time, there had been a limit put on elections expenses. That limit was largely unenforceable. The wording of it was ambiguo us. It was full of looph oles and the reby sometimes the spirit of the law was honoured more in the breach than the ob servance. I think it was generally regarded by all political parties who functioned under the Schreyer-inspi red law that it was imperfect in the extreme.

Our go ver nment un dertook to make more contempor ary the law with respect to election finances. Under the guidan ce of the then Attorney-General, my colleague, the Member for SL Nor bert, did a most commendable job of cleaning up the old provisions and brought in

an act or a bill which after it had gone through the various stages of the House, certainly while not perfect, did represent a more contempor ary piece of legislation than what we had been dealing with prior thereto. That bill in 19 80, and I stress the fact, Mr.

Speaker, that that revision was done only in 19 80, and that here in 19 83, only three years after the first major revision was done on the law, the NDP, for reasons known only to them - and we'll come to the real rea son, because it's the grand larceny that they are perpetrating on the people of Manitoba by asking them to finance their election campaigns. That's the reason we have a new bill today, not because there was substantively too much wrong with the old bill but rather , Mr.

Speak er, because the NDP hope to sneak through in this Session a bill which would provide for public funding out of the taxpayers' pocket of their election expenses in the next election, carefu lly not telling the people of Manitoba - and I would imagine the ballpark figur es are available to anyone who wants to find them - that at the last election, the NDP and the Con servative Party probably spent between them about $2 million.

The public of Manitoba will be asked by this one piece of legislation to fund the NDP and all other parties in Manitoba to the extent of about $1 million - $1.4 million is there own estimate. I think that's a very conservative estimate. So what we are dealing with in this bill, Mr. Speaker, the reason why we ha ve this bill, is to allow the NDP to stick their grimy, sticky ha nds into the pockets of the taxpayers of Manitoba and to extract from the pockets of the working people of Manitoba tax money to support their election financ es in the next election. Mr. Speak er, we put a limit in that 19 80 bill.

A limit was put on advertising which is by far the largest expenditure in modern day-elec tions that is committed by political parties. It is the area most susceptible to legitima te and enforceable control, because the expenses can be seen.

We also provided for tax allowances for contributions to registered candida tes and registered parties for the first time in Manitoba's histor y, along the lines of what had been provided by way of tax receipts and tax credits in several other provinces, and very closely paral leling in terms of the tax credit avai lable to the contributor the provisions of the federal election laws. We also provi ded, Mr.

Speak er, in that election financ es law in 19 80 for an election commission which was to be composed of the Chief Electoral Officer as one of the working members, a chairman to be selected by the government, and two other members, one to be selected by each party having more than four members in the House. As it turned out, after 19 77 and after 19 81, there were only two parties meeting that qualification, therefore the NOP appointed one person in 19 80 and the Prog ressive Conservatives appointed one person in 19 80 under the chairmanship of Mr.

Walter Richie, Q.C., who was appointed by the government and the Chief Electoral Officer was a member of that commission. The purpose of the commission was, of course, to keep the matters of enforcement of the act beyond and at arm's length from the government and that principle was generally acceded to, as I reca ll, Mr. Speak er, by all sides of the House. I believe, Mr. Speaker, the principles that were put in place in 19 80 were, by and large, good and workable and in the public interest. I do not defend the 19 80 act as being perfect. Indeed, as I have mentioned, Mr.

Speak er, the House made many amendments to the original draft that was brought in and members on all sides of the House participated, as I recall, till the very early hours of the morning in making amendments to that original draft and some practical suggestions were made by the then opposition, the NDP, as lo how the act could be made more effective. In many cases many of tho se amend ments were included in the final legislation. Mr. Speake r, that 19 80 act while not perfect does not need replacement, it needs amendment from time to time, there's no question about that.

I'm confident that the Chief Electoral Officer, after the election of 19 81, as inde ed I think the Ele ction Commission Report states, made some suggestions for amendments that should be made to The Election Finances Act. But, Mr.

Speake r, it needs amendment from time to time; it doesn't need wholesale replacement such as we are faced with in this Bill No. 48, especially when the real reason for the wholesale replacement is to put into place in Manitoba a despicable form of taxpayer­ funded election expenses being paid to parties in Manitoba but principally the party that wants it, the only party that wants it really is !he NDP and they say that this is their way of getting the public to finance their movement, their socialist movement, which, Mr.

Speak er, is the reason we have this horrendous piece of legislation with his horrendous principle in place in it. What the NDP have brought forward , Mr. Speaker, in substiuition is a maze of contradicting principles, a bur eaucrat's red-tape socialist paradise. Can't you just see the socialist hive that's being created here with all the workers and all the accountants that will have to be hired in order to look into ever ybody's business. What's the old sa ying, Mr . Sp eaker? When your busine ss becomes ever ybody's business it's nobody's busi ness - and the NDP want every thing to become their business.

It's an open invitation to every lunatic fringe party of the right or of the left to multiply and become thereby membe rs of the advisory board which is substituted for the commission although albeit most of the powers of the commission are stripped away. Final ly, as I've said, Mr. Speaker, and as I will say and say and say and say again it represents a kind of piratical raid on the taxpayers and on the taxpayers' pocket to pay 50 percent of all election expenses of 4409

Tuesday, 19 July, 1983 every candi date and every part y which receives respectively more than 10 percent of the votes in each constituency and in the Province of Manitoba. This latter provision, the provision whereby the taxpayers would, for the first time, start to finance political parties' election expenses is, and I use my words in a measured way, Mr. Speak er, the most outrageous example of political grand larceny that was ever attempted by a government in the history of Manitoba. We intend to stop this robbery of the public purse, Mr. Speaker , but more of that later.

Now, I would like to take a few minutes to review some of the comments of the Attorney-General which he made when he introduced this bill. The first principle, if one can divine it from his opening remarks, and I quo te: "It was to prevent politics from becoming the preserve of the wealthy." Those were his exact words, to prevent politics from becoming the preserve of the wealthy . Mr. Speaker, I find it ironic if not absolutely foolish that a left-wing party with all of of its phony hangups about the wealthy is still trying to perpetrate the myth that money alone wins elections. Mr.

Speak er, money certainly helps. But for a party which has won elections in 19 69, in 19 73 and in 1981 to say that it now requires the taxpayers to subsidiz e all of its future election expenses so as to prevent politics in Manitoba from "becoming the preserve of the wealthy," is irrational and irresponsible foolishne ss and will be so recognized by the people of Manitoba. So, Mr.

Speaker , on the major principle if, indeed, that is the major principle that was enunciated by the Attorney-General as the real reason for the bill, the argument fails, just, indeed, Sir, as the bill should fail because it is contrary to the public interest. It is bad legislation; it is legislation that favours one greedy group at the expense of the taxpayers of Manitoba and that is why, Mr.

Spea ker, as I mentioned yesterday in debate and as I will mention again in deba te today or in the future resumed debate on this bill, as I will mention all over the Province of Manitoba that the people of Manitoba need not fear that these pirates will be allowed to take money from them to finance their own election campaigns , Mr. Spea ker, because the pirates will not be allowed to get away with it. We intend, Mr.

Speak er, when we return to office as we expect to be in the next provincial general election, to repeal this perfidious piece of legislation and we intend to repeal it retroactively in order tha t not a red nickel - and I use the words advisedly - that they have collected from the taxpayers of Manitoba will go to line the pockets of the New Democratic Party or any of the other otfshoots of the left who will benefit from this piece of bad legislation. So, Mr. Speaker , the second point that the Attorney­ General tried to make was, he said he was making it easier for political parties to become registered.

Under the previous legislation, the provision had been made for political parties to be registered; under the present legislation the y mu st ha ve over four seats or be supported by a petition signed by 2,500 people. The registration merely enables parties to receive donations and to give tax receipts for them. Only parties having tour or more seats are eligible to appoint representatives to the election commission, as we had noted before. That is a most important distinction, Sir, because the commission is the regulatory and the enforcement body in monitoring election expenses legislation.

Under the new prov1s1on that the socialists are attempting to bring in in this bill, Mr. Speak er, if a party, any real party or any party that's formed on a street corner or in some hotel washroom, or any conjured­ up party, or any ersatz party, or any lunatic fringe grouping with which I hasten to add my honourable friends are much more familiar than any of us on this side of the Hous e, some of them came from that kind of grouping. The Attorney-General is a good example of a person who now claims allegiance to the New Democratic Par ty, when he came from the Commun ist Party.

One wonders where his allegiance is, Mr. Speak er, when we see his arbitrary use of kicking mem bers out of the House at his whim for thr ee-quarters of an hour or will it be four days or what is the whim of the former Communist candida te on matters of that sort - and when he pretends, Mr. Speak er, to be an upholder of the rights of parliame ntary debate when he has spent a good part of his life, Sir, in a party that wanted to subvert parliam ent. So, Mr.

Speaker , one wonders when I talk about lunatic fringes, one knows that the members opposite have much more famil iarity with lunatic fringes than anyone on this side of the Hous e. So, Mr. Speak er, this bill will permit any real or conjured or ersatz lunatic fringe grouping, whether its Marxist-Lenin ists or Maoists or Rhino ceros or the Flat Earth Society or the John Birch group or wha tever - as long as they merely run five candida tes, they then become eligible to be a registered party in Manitoba. Wha t does tha t eligibi lity conf er upon th em, Mr. Speaker?

First of all, it confers upon them the right - I'm talking about the lunatic fringe parties now, the outside parties, the ones that the public of Manitoba probably don't even know exist, in fact, they probably don't even exist today - it gives them the right, after they nominate five people to run, first of all, to appoint representatives to the Advisory Committee which sits to assist the Chief Electoral Office run democratic elec tions in Mani toba.

Can you imagin e th at a representative of the Commun ist Party is going to be sitting on the Advisory Commit tee to help the Chie f Electoral Officer run elections in Ma nitoba if this legislation is passed. Mr. Speak er, that's an outrage, not only to all Manitobans, but to all Canadians. MR. SPEAKER, J. Walding: The time being 4:30 and Priv ate Member's Hour , this bill will stand in the name of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition when it is next before the House. PRIVATE MEMBERS' HOUR MR. SPEAKER: The first item on the agenda for today's Private Member's Hour is the adjourned debate on Priv ate Bills.

On the proposed motion of the Hono urable Member for Fort Garr y, Bill No. 52. (Stand) On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for St. Norbert, Bill No. 41, standing in the name of the Honourable Member tor Concordia. (Stand) Bill NO. 58 -THE OCC UPATIONAL THERAPISTS ACT MR. SPEAKER: On the propos ed motion of the Honourable Member for River East, Bill No. 58, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Rhineland. 4410

Tuesday, 19 July, 1983 MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, Bill No. 58 is similar to the other professional bills that were passed by the previous government. The guidelines established in The Manitoba Assoc iation of Reg istered Nur ses, The Licensed Practical Nur ses and The Registered Practical Nur ses Acts have been followed. Mr. Speaker , I would like to personally thank the occupational therapists in Manitoba for the good work and service they are providing in the communit y. They have brought relief to many patients and their efforts should not go unnoticed or taken for granted.

The occupational therapists have demonstrated that they are respo nsible persons, and certainly should be capable of having a larger input into their area of responsibility such as the definition of their profession, the parameters of discipline, licensing, education, with laymen representat ion on the board of dir ectors. There will also be embodied within this act the right of appeal to the Court of Queen's Bench concerning complaints. Standards of educ ation and pra ctice and new curriculum development are subject to the Lieutenant­ Govern or-in-Council. Mr.

Speaker , I have studied the bill and reco mmend that the bill go to committee where further discussion can take place. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? QUESTION put, MOTION carried. Bill NO. 94 - THE OPTOMETRY ACT MR. SPEAKER: On the prop osed motion of the Honourable Member for River East, Bill No. 94. The Hono urable Member for Fort Gar ry. MR. l. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker , we have had some considerable difficulty with this act in our caucus, because of certain provisions to tend to redound to the di sadvantage of the ophtha lmic di spensers of Manitoba, the opticians of Manitoba. We do not find Bill 94,

An Act to amend The Optometry Act, suitable or acceptable in its present form. Ho wever , Sir , it is my un de rstan ding th at th e inadvertant difficulties and complications contained in Bill 94 in the form in which it has currently been drafted have been add ressed by the sponsor of the bill and by suppor ters of the bill, and have been discussed with the relevant parties, in this case the ophthal mic dispensers as well as the optometrists of this province.

It is my understanding that tho se discussions have been held to the satisfaction of both parties and furt her, Sir, th at the sponsor of the bill will be introducing amendments to Bill 94 at committee stage, should the bill go to com mittee stage, and that those amendments will take care of the objections and difficulties that arise as a result of the current wording of the proposed legislation.

On the understanding, Sir, that the sponsor of the bill, the Honour able Member for River East, intends to introduce acceptable amendments at committee stage, both Bill 94 and, Sir, to The Ophthalmic Dispensers Act which is

Chapter 0-60 of the revised statutes of Manitoba, we are prepared t permit this legislation to 4411 pass through this stage of consideration and move to the committee level of study. The amendments would primarily deal with protection of the activities of the ophthalmic dispensers and, of course, the protection of the public while meeting the legitimate requir ements of the optometrists for reforms to their legislation.

But as I say, Sir, another amendment or amendments would deal specifically with required changes to The Ophthalmic Dispensers Act to ensure that there is fairness and equity afforded the ophthalmic dispensers, i.e. the opticians, not withstanding the provisions of this bill in front of us. It is my understanding that the amendments to The Ophthalmic Dispensers Act would be introduced by way of The Statute Law Amendments Act and will be presented to the House at later point.

So with that in mind, Sir, and I believe that's a firm undertaking from the sponsor of the bill and has been a su bject of agreement between the relevant professional interest groups and those of us who are concerned with fairness and equity for all professional parties and protection of the public, we're prepared, Sir, to permit Bill 92 to proceed. If th ose amend ments are not forthcoming at commit tee stage and if they are not satisfactory; that is, if they fail to meet those standards of fairness and equi ty, then, Sir, our side will resist passage of the bill at comm ittee stage. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for River East will be closing debate. MR. P. EYLER: Yes, Mr. Speaker , I would like to just confirm what the Member for Fort Garry has said, that there will be some amendments which will be introduced at committee stage. When this bill was first distributed for second read ing, the opticians did appr oach me reg arding certai n problems with the definition of optometry as currently outlined in this act.

We have, through the Department of Health, the Legislative Council and the Attorney­ General's office, met with the lawyers tor both the optometrists and the opticians and together the three have agreed to a certain set of amend ments which I have sent copies to the Member for Fort Ga rry, for him to look over in advance and I don't anticipa te any more problems with this bill from any of the other professions which may feel that their particular profession might be in danger from excessive expansion on the terms of the definition of the optometrist.

So therefore I would like just to say, that I think this is now finally in a form, at least it will be after committee, which will be satisfactory to all members of the House and I hope that this will get through the committee stage at a very early date. QUESTION put, MOTION carried MR. SPEAK ER: On the propos ed motion of the Honou rable Member for Brandon West, Bill No. 103. The Honourable Member for River East. (Stand)

Tuesday, 19 July, 1983 PROPOSED RESOLUTIONS RES. NO. 8 -APOLOGY TO U.S. FOR MEMBERS' PARTICIP ATION IN DEMON STRATION MR. SPEAKER: On the propos ed motion of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, Resolution No. 8, the amendment thereto proposed by the Honour able Minister of Natural Resources. The Honourable Member for Thompson has four minutes remaining. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Mr. Speake r. When I spoke last time on this particular resolution, I attempted to review some of the debate that we ha ve seen on it.

In revie wing it, I think I pointed out quite clearly that the issues as perceived by the public, have been missed to a large extent by members of this House, on both sides of this House, Mr Speak er. I pointed out that the initial concern that many people had about the flag­ burning incident; the concern many people ha ve about demonstrations in general, was missed in a rush by members of this House, started actually by the Leader of the Opposition, to discuss foreign policy and a particular member's views on the foreign policy and their views of the world, Mr. Speaker.

I think there is a place for such a debate. There is a place for such discussion but I really question whether we in the Manitoba Legislature, should be expe nding quite so much energy on that kind of