Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 48 (36th Legislature, 3rd Session)

36-3-48

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVII No. 48-1:30 p.m., Wednesday, May 21, 1997

MANIT OBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim Charleswood P.C. EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S.

Brandon East N.D.P. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HEL WER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Pion N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C.

McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P. - MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David, Hon. Riel P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank, Hon. Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P.

SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P. Vacant Portage Ia Prairie

3003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, May 21, 1997 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mobile Screening Unit for Mammograms Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Glenna Miller, Chris Fingas and Nettie Penonzek and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to consider immediately establishing a mobile screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity.

Obstetrics Closure-Grace General Hospital Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Kerniel Aasland, N. Seifert and Jeffrey Lowe praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the Minister of Health consider stopping the closure of obstetrics programs at the Winnipeg Grace Hospital. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mobile Screening Unit for Mammograms Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense

WHEREAS medical authorities have stated that breast cancer in Manitoba has reached almost epidemic proportions; and

WHEREAS yearly mammograms are recommended for women over 50, and perhaps younger if a woman feels she is at risk; and

WHEREAS while improved surgical procedures and better post-operative care do improve a woman's chances if she is diagnosed, early detection plays a vital role; and

WHEREAS Manitoba currently has only three centres where mammograms can be performed, those being Winnipeg, Brandon and Thompson; and

WHEREAS a trip to and from these centres for a mammogram can cost a woman upwards of$500 which is a prohibitive cost for some women; and

WHEREAS a number of other provinces have dealt with this problem by establishing mobile screening units; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has promised to take action on this serious issue. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to consider immediately establishing a mobile screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity. * (13 35) PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson of the Comm ittee of Supply): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again.

3004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1997 I move, seconded by the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table the report of the Mani toba Liquor Control Commission for the nine months ended December 31, 1996.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon ten Grade 12 students from Maples Collegiate under the direction of Mr. Gordon Boyko. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for The Maples (Mr Kowalski). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Disaster Assistance Provincial Proposal Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the First Minister.

Yesterday in this Chamber the Premier indicated and tabled the copy of a specific proposal to the federal government on flood compensation for the province of Manitoba with a proposed figure of some $270 million. Today it is quoted by the federal government that they, quote, have not received a proposal from the provincial government, and they have not received specific amounts of money from the provincial government. I would like to ask the Premier: Did the federal government indeed receive the specific proposal, and why are they saying they did not? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): I thank the member opposite for that question, Madam Speaker. Certainly, as one can imagine, the intent that was there when we signed the agreement on the 1st of May, Mr. Axworthy and myself plus other ministers, was that we would immediately have our senior officials continue the negotiation and the fleshing out of all the details in the proposal. I know that there have been numerous people involved.

We have paper in our files that has been submitted to us by various senior officials from PFRA, from Western Diversification, including the assistant deputy minister for this region for Western Diversification, and many others on the agriculture side and on the disaster assistance side. The proposal which I tabled for the House yesterday was sent to the associate secretary of the federal cabinet, the Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council, on the 15th of May-which was Thursday of last week-by fax at his request, and it was a product of discussions that had taken place earlier that day.

I assume that was in preparation for the cabinet meeting that took place the following day in Ottawa which I believe was, although I stand to be corrected, attended by Mr. Axworthy. So, quite honestly, I cannot answer why the lead federal minister would have indicated that he had no knowledge of this information. Water Resources Department Staffing Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, on May 21 the federal lead minister stated that he would look to the federal government to reinstate the federal government's water survey staff and the forecasting capacity in Manitoba.

Larry Whitney has said that the reduction and cutbacks ofthese staff will be a major concern to Manitobans. Professor Doering has joined Mr. Whitney in stating that the failure to restore Canada's water survey people could have disastrous consequences for Manitoba. When we look at the failure of the gauges and monitoring in Grand Forks, we see the kinds of consequences that could take place. Has the provincial government received any change in the plans of the federal government on this issue of federal forecasting, and can the Premier advise -

May 21, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3005 Manitobans ofthe status of that particular concern and issue to all of us in this province? *

(1340) Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I certainly share the concern that the Leader of the Opposition is expressing, and that concern, of course, has been expressed by Mr. Whitney of our Natural Resources department. I can indicate that, as part of the discussion, I believe it was in a document that I saw, under PFRA's letterhead, that they had put in as part of the additional costs that they were proposing to incur for this overall Canada Manitoba agreement, that restoring some of that water monitoring would be part of the federal costs in the ensuing program.

I know that it is certainly under discussion, but I do not know whether or not the federal government has made any final decision on it. Water Quantity Survey Agreement Funding Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, under the 1975 federal-provincial water quantity survey agreement, there were certain elements and conditions of funding from the provincial government and certain funding requirements from the federal government. In 1994, the provincial government withdrew about 43 percent of funding in the '94 budget.

In 1995, the federal government withdrew some 70 percent of the funding that is scheduled to take effect in August of 1997. We have had both experts inside the provincial government and experts outside of the provincial government saying that this could have, potentially, a disastrous impact.

Will the Premier himself be taking a flexible position on our funding cutbacks of 1994 so that we can go back to the table and get the co-operative provincial-federal agreement in place again for the future, as we have in the past, and have flexibility in terms of the provincial cutbacks that the federal government is alleging is leading to their cutbacks, both of which we do not certainly support? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, as I have indicated in this House and I believe as well the Minister of Natural Resources has, the areas of reduction on the Manitoba side were in the construction side, the- An Honourable Member: Different question. Mr. Filmon: Okay. Perhaps that is a question then that should better be answered by the Minister of Natural Resources. Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Well, Madam Speaker, the implication of the member's question was that Manitoba somehow added to the issue of adequate monitoring through the management that we have applied within our own department, and what I indicated earlier and what I want to reiterate is that the history of the program is that it was originally largely a federal program that has become increasingly a co-operative agreement signed with the province, and reductions up until recently have been done in a way to make sure that we did not compromise the forecasting ability on surface water quantity.

The proposed next reduction, through letters and communications from myself and from the government, we have indicated that it is simply not an option to have any further reduction in the capability for water quantity monitoring. We have indicated that concern, and we have received preliminary assurances from the federal authorities that they would be reconsidering their reductions. Multilateral Agreement on Investment Government Support Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, the federal Liberal government is currently promoting the so-called Multilateral Agreement on Investment, whose purpose is to give investors the right to buy, sell, or move businesses or any other assets under any terms and conditions they want, regardless of what the sovereign state might want. Federal officials apparently have briefed nongovernmental organizations on the treaty which was supposed to have been completed this month but has been delayed.

Can the First Minister advise the House whether his government supports the Multilateral Agreement on Investment as currently drafted and whether or not his

3006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1997 officials have prepared a provincial position? If they have, what is that position, Madam Speaker? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism. Status Report Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I am going to table a copy of the draft agreement so that Manitobans can see for themselves what is in this document.

Can the First Minister confirm that the treaty, as currently drafted, would have made it possible for foreign corporations such as AT&T to have purchased 100 percent of Manitoba Telecom Services and that there would have been nothing his government would have been able to do to prevent immediate, complete purchase of that phone company by any foreign multinational that wanted to purchase the shares? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): No, Madam Speaker, I cannot confirm that. Mr.

Sale: Madam Speaker, the Premier seems quite out of touch with issues that are of great concern, for example, to the western governors of the United States of America, some 30 states of the United States that have great concern about this issue. Could he confirm that under the current treaty the western governors' concerns about investment for the purpose of creating jobs or maintaining environmental standards would not be able to be met, that the current treaty would not make it possible to set targets of any kind of local procurement, that, for example, the Limestone agreement would not be possible?

Can he confirm that the western governors of the United States, at least, have a point? Mr. Filmon: There is no current treaty. I know that the member opposite is speaking in terms of drafts, and as we all know, drafts are often changed substantially before they reach any final conclusion. *

(1345) Health Care System Funding Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, The Pas hospital has been forced to give up evening snacks to its patients because of budget restraints; Holiday Haven had problems, but the minister had no way of getting the information; Seven Oaks, Concordia and Victoria have eliminated their LPNs, but the minister is not responsible; Grace is closing its obstetrics, but the minister is not responsible; clerks at Concordia Hospital are going to be taking on nurses' aides roles, but the minister is not responsible.

Yet the government is cutting $40 million to $50 million out of the city hospital budgets this year. When will the minister be forthright with the people of Manitoba and take his responsibilities and admit the fact that most of these changes are as a result of the government cutbacks to the health care sector? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Let us examine the question from the member for Kildonan. One premise on which he makes his statement in this House is if we are in a static system. We are not, Madam Speaker.

In fact, if anything, we have seen a shift in services away from institutions into the community. If he looks at the budget of the Ministry of Health over a number of years, he will see that resources in hospitals, yes, have declined, as they have gone up on the home care side, as they have gone up on the community side, because it is very reflective, generally speaking, of a change in how we receive our health care services. There is no doubt that from time to time our facilities are under pressure financially.

Some, yes, due to budget restraints, some due to change as they adapt to changing circumstances in the system, but it is clearly not simply the premise on which he bases his question that is responsible. Mr. Chomiak: Is the minister seriously proposing that a place like Health Sciences Centre, which formerly offered many home care equipment services to individuals to keep them out of the hospital, would start charging and would set up a store in the hospital if they - -

May 21, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3007 were not being cut millions and millions of dollars from their budget and are forced to try to reclaim that money on the backs of people who have to attend the hospital? Is the minister seriously saying that is not the case? Mr. Praznik: I believe the member for Kildonan is referring in his question to a story that was in today's Free Press about the Health Sciences Centre leasing space to a particular company that sells various devices.

If the member had called over to the Health Sciences Centre and found out what their policies are with respect to equipment, he would have learned that, with respect to crutches, for example, the Health Scienc es Centre has always charged a $20 fee to people for the rental of crutches for the duration of their illness, of which $5 was refundable. People on social allowance, for example, have that covered under that program, and that continues. But if the member had made the call, he would have found out that information. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speaker, is the minister today seriously trying to state to the people of Manitoba that the fact that we are charging for home care equipment, the fact that Grace Hospital is closing its obstetrics, the fact that LPNs have been laid off at Concordia, Victoria and Seven Oaks is not a result of government cutbacks? Why is he shirking the responsibility that this government was elected to handle and to deal with the health care of Manitobans? Mr. Praznik: The member for Kildonan raises a number of issues. Let us deal with nursing, for example.

There have been hosts of changes in the nursing profession, the qualifications of nurses, the requirement of staffing mixes to get the best use of staff for dollars available. That has gone on our system. It is a very complicated issue. If the member is suggesting that we maintain the status quo at all costs, even if it is not needed, even if it is not the best, that is not acceptable at all. The member, again, has made reference to changes in facilities, mentioned this particular issue at the Health Sciences Centre.

If those facilities are able to find sources of revenue that add to their budget, is there anything particularly wrong with that if it is not part of insured services? In fact, if anything, if you support our current governance structure, those facilities have that ability to do it. Education System User Fees Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education. User fees are being charged more and more in public schools.

User fees are in fact being charged to students to just enter a classroom, a classroom in junior high or senior high in many schools and school divisions in Manitoba. As the minister responsible under the education act for the supervision, the control and the direction of all public schools, does the minister believe that students have the fundamental right to attend public school regardless of their family income? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Absolutely. *

(1350) Ms. Mihychuk: How can the minister then justify a system, her system, a system this government built that charges students compulsory registration fees to enter classrooms? Mrs. Mcintosh: If the member would be good enough in her next question to tell me which classroom a student cannot enter without paying, I will investigate that, Madam Speaker, or if she wishes to give me that now, I can give it in my second answer. Madam Speaker, this government provides the public school system of Manitoba with $746 million a year, a $115-million increa'\e since we took office, a huge increase to public schools.

In addition to that, we also have money flowing into the system in additional grants over and above that for medical assistance, et cetera, in the schools. The member is aware of those extra monies going to public schools. Many divisions do have extra enhancements they add to the system that are not covered and never have been by public school funding such as certain kinds of extracurricular programming, et cetera, that have never been funded, and sometimes they will take money from education funding to pay for those. User fees have always been around.

I am not aware of students being charged to enter a classroom.

3008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1997 Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, it is clear that the minister is not aware of the extensiveness of user fees. Will she conduct a comprehensive study, a list of the types and amounts of user fees being charged to students in the public education system so that she can become aware of the charges to students in Manitoba schools? Mrs. Mcintosh: School divisions have always, throughout time, charged user fees for certain things.

As a student many years ago, I, myself, was charged student fees for a number of things, for field trips, for locker fees, for student fees, et cetera. Madam Speaker, school divisions have ample money within their budgets to allow students to come to school without charging them to enter a classroom. Now I could begin my investigation by having her give me some specifics to her allegation that schools are charging students to enter a classroom. If she could back that up with a specific example, I would be pleased to investigate it.

So far as I know, I have not heard complaints of that specific nature from the public. Regional Health Boards Authority Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is for the Minister of Health. This is the government that has decided ultimately to create a new level of bureaucracy known as the regional health authorities. The regional health authorities, if they come up with the recommendation to accept the obstetrics leaving the Grace Hospital, this government is prepared to abide by that particular decision.

Madam Speaker, the question to the minister is: Does the ministry, in particular this minister, believe that the government of the day should be deciding what sorts of services ultimately should be provided in our community hospitals, that it should not be the regional boards and the minister hiding behind them? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I again find it difficult to understand where the member for Inkster is coming from, because just a few weeks ago in this House he rose here to defend the current governance system, to defend those facilities that have and want to continue to have a governance role, a full governance role in making the decisions with respect to their facility. You cannot have it both ways. There is a fundamental debate about what role government has. Arc we just the funder of health care, or are we the provider of it as well?

Madam Speaker, in the policies that we have taken, we have recognized the role technology has given us to a large degree to be the provider. We are making those decisions to put not bureaucracy in shape, not another level of governance, but the kind of tool, the kind of governance instrument that will be able to give a rational, objective view to delivering services to meet the changing and ongoing changing needs of Winnipeggers and Manitobans. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, does the minister see any difference in Alberta where they have a regional board in Edmonton? They are suggesting a private hospital.

Does the minister believe that our regional board can make the same sort of suggestion and have private hospitals in the province of Manitoba? What role does the Minister of Health today have with policy with respect to the regional health boards? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the question of a private hospital in this province has not even been considered by this government because it is not one that fits into our planning. Our job is to make the current system, a public system, function well.

Madam Speaker, if the member for Inkster would do some research and check into the issue, what he would find is that one of the difficulties that they found in Edmonton is when they actually took the advice he offered me some weeks ago in this House and maintained this kind of double complete governance system, that did not allow the benefits of regionalization to take place. So I hope they do not follow his advice. I would not follow his advice. *

(1355) Grace Hospital Obstetrical Services Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, the minister said that he does not want to follow the plan of private hospitals. The question then is: Does the government want to follow the plan of taking out obstetrics from the Grace Hospital? - -

May 21, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 3009 Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health) : Madam Speaker, the question is not a simple one as to whether or not there shall be an obstetrics program at the Grace or not be one. There are lots of factors that fit into that. Obviously, you have to have a group of practitioners who are prepared to practise there, that will have enough babies delivered in that facility to have a well practiced centre. How you organize that system to even create the opportunity for that to happen is what is critical.

That is why we created the Winnipeg Hospital Authority; that is why we are working to put it into place in the manner we are, which the member opposed in this House. The opportunity for the Grace is not a yea or nay to fund or not fund. It is: Will you have the practitioners; will you have the mothers who want to have their babies there that creates a sufficient unit to be well practiced? That is the real problem, and that is what we are trying to address. Disaster Assistance Agricultural Losses Ms.

Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, yesterday we heard more information about how flood assistance will be made available for flood victims and municipalities, but we have no definite answer on what will be happening with farm assistance. We hear of possible assistance for farmers who will be unable to seed, but no details are available. Can the Minister of Agriculture indicate how the unseeded acreage payments will be handled? Will it be administered through crop insurance, and if so, what will be the implication on those people who have already purchased unseeded crop insurance-unseeded acreage? Hon.

Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I want to thank the honourable member for Swan River for the question and indicate to her that it would certainly give me some comfort ifl could answer her at this particular time more definitively than I can. There are committees involving the federal and provincial senior bureaucrats working on the compensation package that the Red River Valley farmers will require, but discussions have not been concluded.

It is my understanding that the senior federal minister, Minister Lloyd Axworthy, has indicated that in the next two or three days hopefully these discussions will have come to a conclusion, and we will be able to, with some detail, respond to that kind of a question, not just to the member for Swan River, of course, but to the many farmers who are waiting for that answer. Ms.

Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, since Manitoba Crop In surance is legislatively required to operate as an actuarially sound insurance program, will the minister _agree that any ad hoc payments must be handled in a way that will not have a negative impact on Manitoba Crop Insurance? Mr. Enos: Again, Madam Speaker, I thank the honou rable member for that question and indicate to her that I do agree with the implications of that question.

We do not want to disturb the soundness of the insurance program that is offered by Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation and, quite frankly, it would not be fair to the other farmers who participate in the program if ad hoc programs were injected to the program by this group of producers and then borne as a whole throughout the province. We have always made it very clear as spokespersons, people, including the First Minister (Mr.

Film on) and people out of his office, when dealing with this matter with the federal authorities indicated that any support of that kind would have to be outside of the crop insurance program. *

(1400) Man Globe Government Discussions Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier. On television on Thursday, May 15, '97, the former dean of management at the University of Manitoba, Bill Mackness, the current PC candidate in Winnipeg South, described the ManGlobe project as follows: It is a classic boondoggle of government spending, and if it were their own money, I would say they should go for it, but unfortunately they insist on using our money. I would like to ask the Deputy Premier: Will the Deputy Premier be discussing this issue later today with Bill Mackness, Jean Charest and the Premier when they meet for their photo op?

3010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1997 Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): No, Madam Speaker, we will be talking about how badly the Charest party and the PC Party will trounce the NDP in the upcoming federal election. Telecommunication Projects Funding Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, yesterday in Estimates, the Deputy Premier confirmed large losses of taxpayers' money in his other pet projects, Iris Systems Inc., which lost $877,000; TeleSend and Gateway Incorporated, where he lost another $200,000.

How many other failed projects has this minister recommended to Treasury Board? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, let me at the outset say that is not what I said in Estimates yesterday. In fact, I indicated that one company was no longer in operation and that was Iris, although the technology and the information, the work that they had done did in fact develop some technology that was marketed. Secondly, the other companies that he is referring to are still operating in the province of Manitoba and hiring people and providing services.

So I do not know where he is getting his information from. If he would only read Hansard from yesterday, it might be helpful. Mr. Maloway: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Deputy Premier what due diligence was done before he approved these projects, and did he check the credit ratings and backgrounds of any of the principals involved in these projects? Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, the member has a very short memory. I answered those questions in Estimates yesterday, and he would be well advised to read those answers. Provincial Parks Camping Reservations Mr.

Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, today the Minister of Natural Resources finally put out a news release talking about the Destinet deal where the campers in Manitoba will now have to book their camping reservations through an American company. In the news release the minister talked about a central toll-free information line. Well, that always was the case. He said that campers from outside Manitoba can now map out their visits. They always could.

What is different is that it now costs more, the profits go to an American company, and there will be part-time employment instead of full-time people working at our parks. I want to ask the minister: Will Destinet employ a comparable number of full-time employees to those who have already been laid off from Natural Resources who previously did this work at our campsites? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, the member is so unwilling to see that there is an opportunity to having a call centre moved to this province which potentially will create 20 or more jobs, as many as 50 jobs, and they would have an opportunity to take on far more than just campsite registrations. If he wants to close his mind to opportunities like that for the citizens of this province, then we know why he has no vision of the future. Mr. Struthers: This minister should open his mind to full-time employment and quit kicking Manitobans out of work and replacing them with part-timers.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member, to pose his question, please. Mr. Struthers: The minister confirmed that the service for campers will suffer because Destinet agents outside of Manitoba are unaware of our parks. For example, one agent had to ask a camper how to spell the word "Manitoba." Mr. Cummings: Madam Speaker, the member for Dauphin refuses to acknowledge that there are going to be 20-plus jobs created in a call centre here in Manitoba. He wants to talk about- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Cummings: I guess they are not interested in call centre jobs.

That is unfortunate. - -

May 21, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANIT OBA 3011 Madam Speaker, I do not want to cause embarrassment to the member for Dauphin, but I just handed out a recognition of 18 new Natural Resources officers who have just been sworn in to the Department of Natural Resources. Are those not real jobs? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Natural Resources, to quickly complete his response. Mr.

Cummings: To conclude my response, I will have to, for emphasis, repeat that there are going to be call centre jobs-a call centre located here to provide a service far in excess of what we have been able to supply up till now. If the member refuses to acknowledge that, then he had better get with it. Destinet Contract Tabling Request Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Dauphin, with a final question. Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, if this minister thinks this is such a good deal, why will he not table that contract like I asked him to last week? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I will speak slowly. The contract agrees that a call centre will be established in this province where it will employ Manitobans. They will employ Manitobans. It will create 20 to 50 jobs. The member refuses to acknowledge that those are real jobs, typical of the opposition. The best job creation record in the country and they do not want it. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): A point of order, Madam Speaker, and I will state my point of order very slowly. The question was: Will the minister please table the contract?

I would appreciate if you would ask him to either table the contract or not waste the time of the House with his rather long meandering answers that have very little to do with the question. He was asked to table it, and I would ask you to bring him to order and make sure he does that. Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I would remind the honourable minister that, indeed, his answer should reply to the question asked. *

(1410) AIDS Service Organizations Funding Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, we were not surprised that the federal Liberals, with a grand flourish, have chosen the federal election to announce a $200-million over five-year renewed national AIDS strategy. The announcement, of course, does not guarantee that Manitoba AIDS service organizations will be funded; there are still guidelines to meet and hoops to dance through.

I want to ask the Minister of Health today if he has had time to meditate on his own fall 1996 provincial AIDS strategy, and has he given attention to the question of actually funding the strategy. Will he match his federal counterparts and consider funding AIDS service organizations like those that have submitted funding proposals to him, for example, the Village Clinic? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I remember before the federal election call, the member for Osborne and I, in this House, in an exchange of questions and answers talking about the withdrawal of federal money, and I think my prediction to her was, with an election coming and the track record of the Liberals to come out at election time with funding commitments, we might see some progress. I am pleased to see that the federal government, during the course of an election, has renewed this funding commitment, because I think it is welcomed by all who work in this area.

With respect to our provincial commitments, we have that strategy in place. There is obviously a fair bit of work to do by myself and others in the department to assess exactly what we are able to provide. I continue to work with that community to do the best that we can,

3012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITO BA May 21, 1997 but I certainly welcome the renewal of the federal money. Ms. McGifford: Maybe a provincial election will ensure funding to the AIDS service organization. AIDS Hospice Government Support Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Osborne, with a supplementary question. Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Since the minister on both March 6 and April 15 indicated to this House his support for an AIDS hospice, I want to ask him what steps he has taken toward realizing such a facility. Whom has he contacted, what concretely has happened and what support is he offering?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): I think the member will find it does not take a provincial general election on this side of the House. This government has been very committed to a host of areas in a very rational and reasoned approach over the years, and we will continue to do that. Madam Speaker, there are a host of issues here. The member asks me today to make a commitment carte blanche to a number of organizations that have submitted particular funding requests. I would hope that she would expect us to assess the ability of those organizations to deliver services.

Some of them that she is aware of have some issues that have to be addressed in terms of their own ability to provide deliverables for dollars that are there. With respect to a hospice, that is obviously one of the issues that has to be addressed as we move into looking at capital needs and needs assessments within our regional health authorities. I hope that we are going to see some resolution to that through that process. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon.

James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to. Committee Changes Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Madam Speaker, do I have leave to revert to committee changes? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek have leave to revert to Committee Changes? [agreed] Mr.

McAlpine: Madam Speaker, the composition of the Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections be amended as follows: The member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer) for the member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer) for the May 20, 1997, 7:30 p.m. meeting. Madam Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek .(Mr. McAlpine), seconded by the honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck), that the composition of the Subcommittee on Privileges and Elections for 7:30, Tuesday, May 20, be amended as follows: The honourable member for Niakwa for the honourable member for Gimli. Agreed?

An Honourable Member: That is agreed. Madam Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. *

(1420) Mr. McAlpine: I move, seconded by the honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck), that the composition of the Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections be amended as follows: The honourable member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer) for the honourable member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer) for May 20, 1997, 3 p.m. meeting. Motion agreed to. - -

May 21, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 3013 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) LABOUR Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Department of Labour. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 2.(k)(2) on page 101 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass? Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Chairperson, I wanted to continue with a couple of questions relating to the Worker Advisor Office. The minister mentioned yesterday that he had-there was a seconded person working for his department, a person coming from the Justice department and he mentioned the name. It was Irene Kavanagh. I am still not clear on the purpose of why Ms.

Kavanagh would be coming from the Justice department to receive some training within the Worker Advisor Office, and I am wondering if the minister could provide for me some further explanation on that type of secondment. Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Labour): Mr. Chairman, and I do not have a lot more information than I put on the record yesterday.

My understanding was that we had a vacant staff year, and I believe this individual was looking toward government for some change or new challenge and arrangements were made between my department and the Justice department for this individual to come forward and join the staff in the Worker Advisor Office. I do not think permanent arrangements have been made yet, and, as the individual gains experience, I think we will make a determination, and supervisors will make the determination, whether this develops into a longer-term situation or not. Mr.

Reid: I can understand if there was a vacancy and the minister felt that he needed to bring the staff complement up to its regular level, but I did not get that sense from the minister yesterday when he was responding to my question, that this particular individual would be working with the department after the training period had expired and that perhaps the individual may be going back to the Justice department. I am just trying to get an understanding here.

If you are bringing the individual in for some training that would facilitate perhaps a resolution of the matter that I raised with the minister yesterday when matters proceed to the courts, and some people in the Justice department need to have that sensitivity to these cases that would go before the courts, with respect to either Workers Compensation or Workplace Safety and Health issues, then I can understand that. But, if that is not the case, then I would like to have some detail on why that person is there and for what purpose?

Are we getting best use of those monies if we are bringing someone in to train who is not going to be utilizing that experience or that particular training? That is why I am asking the minister the question. Mr. Gilleshammer: I think what I hear the member saying is, is this an appropriate way for somebody to gain additional experience if in fact the individual and the departments involved are not prepared to make this a permanent relationship?

I think that this is not an unusual occurrence to happen within the civil service, and, maybe, when we get into the discussion of the Estimates of the Civil Service Commission, we can have further discussion of that. There are many times, it is my understanding, within the civil service, that people are looking for new opportunities and new challenges, and efforts are made to try and accommodate these as openings occur. So I cannot be more definitive than that, because this arrangement was made amongst the two departments involved.

What the final outcome and resolution of that will be, I cannot say at this particular time. When staff within the government civil service, and sometimes even with the federal civil service, are looking for new challenges and new appointments, there is an opportunity for departments to co-operate and allow that type of experience to occur. Mr. Reid: Are there other people within the minister's department that have come in from other departments to receive training in other areas within the Department of Labour? Are other people seconded from other departments to come into Labour to train as well? Mr.

Gilleshammer: I cannot give you a definite example, but I believe there are. When we have an opportunity to deal with the Civil Service Commission

3014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT O BA May 21, 1997 in a short while, I think that is a valid question to ask. From time to time, as I have indicated, people from one department are seconded to another department, and those arrangements are generally made with the managers within those departments. I know that, when there are staffing changes that take place from time to time, there are people who are looking for new and different opportunities. All departments of government, from time to time, wiii look at individuals from other departments, and if there is a position, they can second those people to gain that experience within a new department. *

(1430) Mr. Reid: Perhaps the minister is right then. If this is more appropriately dealt under the Civil Service Estimates, then we will leave that over to that when the minister may have staff available to him to assist with the reasons why that decision was made. It is my understanding that when you bring staff in, you second staff to come in, it is usually to fill a role or a vacancy where work needs to be done. Yes, they get training at the same time, but it also provides for some-because there is some requirement within the department.

I do not get the sense here, from what the minister's answers have been, that the particular individuals coming in to play a particular role, other than training which, to me, seems to be different than what past practices have shown to be the case. That is why I raise-and perhaps the minister wants to provide some further explanation, if staff can provide him with the answer. Mr. Gilleshammer: I just say again, it is not an uncommon occurrence within the civil service for somebody from one department to gain some experience in another department.

I gather from the tone of the member's questions and comments that he is opposed to having people from another department get some experience and be seconded to another department. I do not think we are breaking new ground here. This is something that has happened over the years and, if my honourable friend is not aware of that, I would be pleased to get some statistics put together to examine how many secondments occur within a calendar year for him. But we are not pioneering a new idea here.

This happens from time to time that people take on a challenge with a new department, and in this case it is not an unusual occurrence. Mr. Reid: All right. We will leave that over to the Civil Service Commission and Jet some further questioning take place in those Estimates. Can the minister tell me, were there any individuals seconded out of the Worker Advisor Office over the course of the last year, perhaps to other departments or to other areas of government operations? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, there were some other changes.

My understanding is there is one individual who is now with the Ombudsman's department and another individual who was in Employment Standards and has moved to the Worker Advisor Office. Mr. Reid: So I take it that these individuals then, are they still with the department? Are they there for training or have they moved back to the departments from which they were seconded, and were there any others that perhaps may have been working more directly with the minister? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am informed that this was a career change made by these individuals. Mr.

Reid: Were there any other individuals working in other than branches of the Department of Labour, perhaps more directly with the minister, who may have been seconded from the Worker Advisor Office in the past year? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, we had one individual from the Worker Advisor Office who did some work with government, relative to the Workers Compensation Board. Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me how long those individuals were seconded from their departments, including the one who was seconded to work on cases for the minister? I take it that is what it was for. -

_M_ a�y_2�1, _1_9_97 __________ L_ E_G�I_S_L_A�T�I V_E __ A_S�SE=M __ B_L_Y_O�F�MA __ N�I�T�O _B_A ______________ ___ 3015 Mr. Gilleshammer: The individual referenced, who was doing the work on the Workers Compensation Board issues, was for a period of about three months. Mr. Reid: And the other individuals were seconded for how long from their departments, there are two other names you mentioned? Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, the one example I used, and I refer to these as career changes, left the Worker Advisor Office, won a competition and is now with the Ombudsman's office. Mr. Reid: I am sorry.

I misunderstood the minister and his earlier explanation. Can the minister tell me, there was an individual who had some dealings, involvement with the government as a part of the labour group, a Mr. Tesarski. Is Mr. Tesarski working with your department or other government departments that you may be aware of? Mr. Gilleshammer: No. Mr. Reid: So then Mr. Tesarski does not have any current employment status with either your department or the government? Mr. Gilleshammer: The answer is no. Mr.

Reid: If there is a competition, would those competitions be dealt with, I guess, under the Civil Service Commission, if Mr. Tesarski was to apply for one of those jobs? It is my understanding that he may be working for the Department of Labour now. The minister has said, no, that is not the case. So are there competitions that are open currently within the Department of Labour for jobs that may be vacant? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am not sure what the question is. You asked if this individual was working for the department, and the answer is no. Then you were asking if he won a competition. Obviously, he has not.

This individual, whom I have met on one or two occasions, is not employed by the Department of Labour. Mr. Reid: My question there was just to determine whether or not because the departments, through the Civil Service Commission, do advertise for job vacancies and that perhaps the individual may have been a successful applicant on one of those advice notices, and perhaps may not be in the employ of the department officially yet, but has been the successful applicant. That is my question here.

Has he been the successful applicant for any of the bulletins or the vacancies or other jobs that are available within the department? Mr. Gilleshammer: Again, I repeat, he does not work for the department and, to my knowledge, has not won any competition to work for the department. Mr. Chairperson: Item 11.2. Labour Programs (

k) Worker Advisor Office

(2) Other Expenditures $145,000-pass. 11.2.(

m) Office of the Fire Commissioner-no funding. Shall the item pass? Mr. Reid: I have a few questions for the Fire Commissioner's office. The minister had advised me earlier that building permit fee increases would be more appropriately addressed or questions asked through the Fire Commissioner's office, so I would like to ask the minister: Has the Fire Commissioner's office increased the building permit fees? Mr. Gilleshammer: I would like to introduce the Fire Commissioner Doug Popowich, who has joined us at the table at this time. The answer to that question is, yes, there has been an increase in fees.

I understand that increase was in the area of 50 percent. Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me, that seems to be an excessive fee hike considering the cost of living is in the range of 1.5 to 2 percent, what is the justification for a 50 percent hike in those fees? *

(1440) Mr. Gilleshammer: I guess the cost of living is often calculated on a monthly or annual basis. These fees have not been addressed on that basis, and, as a result, from time to time, you have to do comparisons with other provinces. You have to do evaluation of the actual cost. I believe that the last change in these fees was in 1988, so it has been almost 10 years since they

30 I6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 2I, I9 97 were adjusted. As a result, the 50 percent spans some I 0 years in terms of an adjustment of those rates. Mr. Reid: Just doing rough calculations here, that still exceeds the level of the cost of living increases over that I 0-year period, 50 percent. No cost of living has gone up 50 percent in this province that I know of, and not even in Canada. So how do you justify, even over that I 0-year period, a 50-percent fee increase? Mr.

Gilleshammer: Well, again, I think I indicated as part of my first answer that you have to do cost comparisons with other jurisdictions, other provinces . These rates are still less than what it costs to do these inspections and to have these permits in the city of Winnipeg. Mr. Reid: So then I take it that the purpose of the fee increases is to move towards full cost recovery for the work that is being performed. Mr. Gilleshammer: One ofthe comparisons we do is full cost recovery. We also, as I have indicated, compared the provincia l fees, which are rural fees, to the cost in the city of Winnipeg.

We have made this adjustment. As I just indicated, the fees are still less than in the city of Winnipeg. So there was a discrepancy between these building permits in rural areas as compared to the city of Winnipeg. This was an attempt to adjust them upward to compare them to other jurisdictions and to look at recovering some of the costs that go into this. Mr. Reid: Does the minister have a comparison chart that he can provide between the building permit fees of the rural areas and of the city of Winnipeg, so we can have some type of comparison between the two? Mr.

Gilleshammer: We do not have a chart with us today, but we can provide that comparison for the member. Mr. Reid: Perhaps the minister can send that along with the package of information that he has already committed to prepare and forward to me. Mr. Gilleshammer: We would be happy to do that. Mr. Reid: It is my understanding that the Fire Commissioner's office deals with codes and standards. There was an issue that came to my attention in my own constituency, although I am sure it is not isolated to that community of Transcona, but it was involving dwelling units that have a single door.

During the course of the blizzard that we had this spring there were a number of complaints that came to my office from constituents whose homes were blocked. There was only one door permitting the residents of that building to leave or enter the building. Of course, they were attempting to leave the building but were snowed in. Other buildings that I had noticed in the community after the blizzard, where they had two doors to allow the residents to move freely, gave the residents at least one opportunity to leave the building.

My concern here is that in blizzard situatio ns or in cold weather climates like we are living in, where you have heating appliances, furnaces, either natural gas, electric or other, heating the building, should a fire occur within the building and we have a door that is blocked, and it is a single door to that building, I suppose you can smash a window to get out if you have the strength to do that.

But, if you have young children that are involved, or perhaps elderly, frail or the disabled, and you only have one door and it is blocked by snow, my understanding is that the current code allows for dwelling units to be constructed with one door. My question is: Why was the decision made to allow one-door units to be constructed, and is there any consideration being given to alter the code to make sure that there are at least two ways, hoping that one will at least be free and passable in events such as a blizzard or other events that may occur? Mr.

Gilleshammer: I am told that having more than one entrance and exit as part of the building code is not required anywhere across the country, not to say that my honourable friend's concern is not a valid one. I think we have made great strides in terms of fire prevention issues and education, use of sprinklers, smoke alarms, a variety of ways to enhance early warning and assist with putting fires out, but across the country there is no jurisd iction that requires more than one exit or entrance.

I think if you look at the literature or the advertising, certainly, individuals are encouraged to think about this in their own home, think about how - -

May 21, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANIT OBA 3017 they would escape if there was a fire, train their family, teach their children, find ways to deal with an issue like that should it arise. I had the pleasure recently of presenting an award from the Fire Commissioner's office to a teenage girl in western Manitoba who saved herself and four other children from a fire that broke out in an upstairs bedroom. I think the training that families give their children to deal with those emergencies is important, and it is not only children that we need to educate, it is all citizens.

I am told that there have not been discussions within the department and with the Fire Commissioner's staff to change the regulations here that are reasonably consistent across the country. Mr. Reid: I do not disagree with the minister. It may be consistent. I have not done the research to either prove or disprove that statement. My concern here is for what is happening within the province of Manitoba and for events that took place within my own community, that I am sure is no different than many other communities in the province.

My concern here is for the safety of the very young, the elderly or the disabled that may not be able to implement an evacuation plan in a timely fashion in the event of, perhaps, that a fire should take place within a structure that only has one door. I know you are not going to make this change, and there would have to be some consideration undertaken by the department and perhaps some consultation take place with various jurisdictions across the country, but we have a climate here in Manitoba that is different than some other jurisdictions in Canada.

I do not know that all of the jurisdictions in Canada get the type of blizzard conditions that we have here. Yes, they get some snow, but they do not, from my experience, get the same type of conditions that we have here.

So I am asking here whether or not-and I take it you do some consultation with other jurisdictions across the country, various Fire Commissioners' offices across the country, you can put this on the agenda and have some discussion of this, considering the different climatic conditions that we have within the province of Manitoba and that we are charged with the responsibility of making sure the codes and standards that we have in place are safe for the people that we represent collectively in the province of Manitoba-to standardize our codes and practices with other jurisdictions, we have a responsibility, safety-wise, to the residents and to the people we represent.

So I am asking the minister, when you go to your staff or the minister attends ministerial meetings or Fire Commissioner meetings with other jurisdictions, internal to your own department, that you have some consideration for looking at the code provisions or the standards that only allow for dwelling units to be constructed with one door. I will leave that with the minister. I know it will take some more research for the department to look at what would be a best way of ensuring the safety of our communities. *

(1450) Mr. Gilleshammer: I would say that, in all of the educational material that is put out through the Office of the Fire Commissioner, it urges all individuals, families, to determine what other exits there are from a building in case that horrible eventuality should happen that your home is on fire. So this is part of the education package that is put out by the Fire Commissioner's office and used in various communities with our volunteer fire departments and with the education programs within the school system.

But, of course, as I have said before, we will take all of the good suggestions my honourable friend has brought to this committee and have the department look at them. Mr. Reid: I thank the minister for that undertaking. Can the minister tell me: Are there any other fee increases that are planned by the Fire Commissioner's office for this next year? Mr. Gilleshammer: We have not had that discussion within the department or with the Fire Commissioner. As my honourable friend knows, we budget on an annual basis and, of course, it is difficult to say what changes might be recommended for another year.

The member is no doubt aware that the Fire Commissioner's office is now a special operating agency, and they have an advisory board and will be looking at all of their activities, but I believe we have announced all of the fee changes that are currently in place.

3018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANI TOBA May 21, 1997 Mr. Reid: Is the minister contemplating any other fee increases in other parts of his department other than the Fire Commissioner's office? Mr. Gilleshammer: Again, the budget has been set for the current year, and it will probably be some months yet before we get into detailed consideration of where we are moving with our budget for next year. I expect the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) will be brin ging down another good budget in the spring of 1998. My honourable friend will have to wait until that happens. Mr.

Reid: I understand that there is a budgetary process that is involved here. I am just looking to see whether or not the department has plans in place that will make adjustments to the various fees through the Department of Labour that perhaps may be implemented at a later point. It is my understanding, from other departments for which I have been the critic, fees are not always implemented at the beginning of the budget year, and some of them are held over until July 1 or September 1, as other examples proven to be the case.

So that is why I am asking whether or not the department is contemplating implementing other fee changes or increases that may not have already been announced. Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairman, I believe in earlier discussions, we have made the commitment to give the honourable member detail on some of the revenue, or all of the revenue, items that were brought forward in this budget. Mr.

Reid: If the minister would then undertake to give a commitment here that should there be fee increases that are planned by the department as part of this year's budget, that he would give me some notice when he sends the package to me, giving an indication on when they plan to implement those particular changes, should there be any with respect to fee changes or increases in any of the other subdepartments, including, but not limited to, the Fire Commissioner's office. Mr. Gilleshammer: I think we have already made that commitment. Mr.

Reid: Could the minister tell me why-because looking under the Repair and Maintenance under the Fire Commissioner's office, you are assuming that the facility in Thompson will be closed effective April 1 of next near-is it the $28,000-saving that you are contemplating as the sole reason why you are closing the Fire Commissioner's office? How many staff are employed in that particular facility? Mr. Gilleshammer: There will be no staff impact from that decision. The board made a determination that they would close that particular office, and that will be done. Mr.

Reid: Then I take it that office will be closed, as the document indicates, on April 1, '98. What is the workload of that particular office that would dictate that you can afford to close that office, and, I take it, shift your staff elsewhere, because you say the staff complement is going to remain stable. Mr. Gilleshammer: We have two staff in that area, and we will continue with two staff. The facility-and perhaps I misled the member inadvertently-was a classroom used for training. Mr.

Reid: So the training function will no longer take place out of that office in Thompson, and those two staff will still work for the Fire Commissioner's office in that community serving the North? Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, that training can take place at any site. We can use existing space. We can rent if we have to. The decision was made to close that particular classroom. Mr.

Reid: So your objective then is to retract or withdraw from office space that was used to train and to house these two staff people, and your training function or component wiii still continue, and those two staff people will remain employed in that activity serving northern Manitoba? Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct. Mr. Reid: You charge an insurance levy which is not to exceed 2 percent of the value of the premiums or the assessments with respect to property insurance. Can you give me an idea of the size of the pool of money that would be accumulated in a year, and is there an -

May 21, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 3019 ongoing pool of funds that stays in place, or is that expended through the course of the year? Mr. Gilleshammer: I believe there is about $3 million added to that each year. Mr. Reid: Are all of those funds, or nearly all of those funds, expended during the course of the year? Mr. Gilleshammer: The majority of the funds are expended during the year. At the current time, I believe there is somewhat over $5 million in the fund. Some of it will be used to finance the construction of a new training site in Brandon.

I think it is about $1.5 million that is being used for that. Mr. Reid: You are showing on your balance sheet which I take it to be the projected income statement for years, on page 59 of the supplementary document under the Office of the Fire Commissioner income statement-and it is showing successive years from '97 to the year 2000. I take it that is a projected income statement for those years. You have losses, operating losses, that appear to be fairly constant in dollars.

These fee increases that you have brought into place, you say to offset some of the losses, will that in any way, or any of the fees that you charge, offset this sheet as is shown in this document, and will those operating losses decrease? Mr. Gilleshammer: The fee increases that we spoke of earlier have already been built into this budget and these budget projections.

The Fire Commissioner's office and the training school in Brandon is endeavouring to control its costs but also to generate revenue, and I am very pleased to say that there has been interest expressed from jurisdictions outside of Manitoba to do some training, to avail themselves of the expertise available to them. I do not know whether my honourable friend has ever had an opportunity to visit the training site, but we would certainly extend an invitation to himself and the deputy critic to come to Brandon at any time and view the site.

We have the development of an additional training site that has just been announced and probably just starting. We hope to have that completed by the fall. Part of the challenge of the special operating agency has been to increase business to attract more training. I think they have an excellent track record in training men and women in this particular area. *

(1500) I am encouraged that the City of Winnipeg is considering using the facility in the near future. I am not sure it has been finalized yet, but we are working towards it. But other cities, other provinces, some of the northern states, and in fact, I believe, some countries from other areas of the world are also considering using the site as a base for training.

So it is an ongoing challenge for the Fire Commissioner and his staff to provide a high level of service and at the same time recover costs for the training they provide, working with rural fire departments, professional firefighters and others to try and enhance the amount of business that occurs at the training site in Brandon. Mr. Reid: I am happy to hear that you are making some strides to make other opportunities available to the Fire Commissioner's office and to provide expertise to other jurisdictions, which will allow the operating agency to grow.

I take it then that as more opportunities become available to provide or to share the expertise of the Fire Commissioner's office with other jurisdictions that as well could affect the bottom line on your revenue picture which will change then your operating loss picture for successive years. Until those negotiations conclude, then you will not have a clear picture, and it will have to be revised year by year to determine what your projections are on your operating losses for successive years. Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct. The objective, of course, is to balance the budget and even turn a profit if we can.

There are many ways to invest any surplus dollars back into the college, and certainly, I believe, there are lots of opportunities out there that are being worked on by staff at the college. Mr. Reid: I take it then that since there are operating losses and that this is not just paper numbers here, but there are real operating losses that are affecting the Fire C9mmissioner's office, should those opportunities not develop in the future, that the current losses are covered

3020 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1997 out of the Consolidated Fund for the government. Will the government continue to cover those losses in successive years should the Fire Commissioner's office not be successful in achieving or realizing the changes or the contracts that they hope to achieve? Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, the losses are covered from a pool of money that the Fire Commissioner's office has access to. But you are right, the objective is to expand the opportunities to attract more business, and time will tell whether they are success ful.

They are running a budget of about $4 million, and the objective is to try and bring their expenses and revenues into balance in the next short while. Mr. Reid: Over the years that I have been here, I have received correspondence from First Nations communities, and my understanding is that it is not only First Nations communities that have volunteer fire departments, many of the rural communities have them as well. We have seen a loss of life on some of the First Nations communities in particular; at least those are the ones that stand out in mind.

What role does the Fire Commissioner's department play, or are they involved with First Nations communit ies, their representatives, the chiefs and band councils, to provide training to the people living in those communities? Do you have a ratio that is in place? Are there ongoing negotiations to bring so many people a year in for training, or what type of process or structure do you have in place to provide for that continual training need? Mr. Gilleshammer: I think it is fair to say that every community out there has some sort of fire protection.

In rural Manitoba, virtually every community has a volunteer fire brigade; ones that are, at this point in time, quite well equipped and quite well trained. In addition to that, they have agreements with nearby communities, the mutual aid agreements, whereby they assist one another if there should be a fire that is in between jurisdictions or is deemed to be of a nature that assistance is required. By and large, this works very well. The member asked about First Nations communities.

They can access the same training as any other fire brigade or mutual aid district and are able to participate in training programs offered by the Fire College in Brandon. Certainly, all fire departments out there are not created equal; some have taken greater advantage of training opportunities. Some, obviously, make it a higher priority, but the training is available, can be purchased by any community within the province, and there have been a number of First Nations communities that have availed themselves of the service. Mr.

Reid: I guess the concern I would have in my mind here is that not all municipalities are created equal and not all First Nations communities are equal in financial capabilities with the various municipalities in rural Manitoba What type of a process do you have for those communities that do not have the financial wherewithal to send their people, because they have to, obviously, from my understanding, pay a fee to send people for this particular training?

What type of a process do you have to make sure that these people coming from communities that do not have that financial capability are also given the opportunity to train their people? Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I am not sure how to assess the financial capabilities of First Nations communities or bands. They have their own sources of revenue, and some of it, of course, is earmarked for health, education, housing, that sort of thing. I am not just sure what priorities different bands put on it, but I am informed that the college has not turned down any jurisd iction asking for training.

They have all been accommodated. Mr. Reid: Well, I hope that the financial considerations would not be the primary objective of the department, that the department would seriously consider all the applications that are coming to make sure that people are trained, and that when they go back to live in those communities, they have the adequate training, and that the cost would not be prohibitive to prevent that training from taking place.

But I want to ask the minister another question dealing with-because he mentioned in his opening comments-the North American Agreement on Labour Co-operation, do you have that agreement available to you here today? Is it possible to get a copy of that agreement from you so that I might have the opportunity to read up on it? - -

May 21, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA 3021 *

(1510) Mr. Gilleshammer: I do not have one personally, but we can certainly see that a copy is provided for my honourable friend. Mr. Reid: Is that agreement now in effect, and what would be the effect? Do you have a

summary or a ministerial

summary on the effect of the agreement on the Province of Manitoba? Mr. Gilleshammer: The agreement that my honourable friend has referenced was signed, I believe, in January of this year-it might have even been in this room or the one down the hall-and we can provide a copy of that for the member. Mr. Reid: I would appreciate it. At the same time, if the minister is going to provide the copy of the agreement, if there is an executive

summary that is attached to it, if one is available, he would pass a copy of that long as well, I would appreciate that. Mr. Gilleshammer: Agreed. Mr. Chairperson: Item 2. Labour Programs (

m) Office of the Fire Commissioner, no funds-pass. Resolution 11.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $12,139,600 for Labour, Labour Programs, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1998. The last item to be considered for the Estimates of the Department of Labour is item ll .l. (

a) Minister's Salary $25,700. At this point we request the minister's staff leave the table for consideration of this item. Item l.(

a) Minister's Salary $25, 700-pass. Resolution 11.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $474,000 for Labour, Labour Executive, for the fiscal year ending the 3 I st day of March, 1998. This completes the Estimates for the Department of Labour. The next set of Estimates that will be considered by this

section of the Committee of Supply is the Estimates of the department of the Civil Service Commission. I do not believe we are ready to continue, so we will take a brief recess. [interjection] I guess we will not take a brief reces s. · CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of the Civil Service Commission. Does the honourable Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission have an opening statement? Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission): In introducing the budget Estimates for the Civil Service Commission for 1997-98, I would draw attention to the Supplementary Estimates Information which has been provided and contains a good deal of organizational program and financial information to assist the members with the Estimates review now before us.

The budget Estimates for the Civil Service Commission for 1997-98 remain largely unchanged depicting a decrease of approximately $100,000 from $4,164,1 00 to $4,063,900. This decrease has been achieved largely through the elimination of two staff positions; one a vacant computer programmer within the Administrative Services division and the other, a seconded administrative officer from the Human Resources Programs Branch.

For the coming fiscal year, collective bargaining will be a major priority within the Civil Service Commission as collective agreements with the MGEU and other bargaining groups expired on March 28, 1997. Negotiations with the MGEU and other bargaining agents representing provincial government employees are currently underway. The province provided its proposals for renewal of the collective agreement to the MGEU on February 18, 1997, and the MGEU subsequently responded with proposals to government on April 11, 1997. Negotiations are continuing between the parties. As minister responsible

3022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1997 I am hopeful that a satisfactory agreement will be achieved consistent with the government's bargaining framework and overall fiscal goals. Other than this general information, while the parties are at the bargaining table I do not believe it would be appropriate to disclose or discuss details of negotiations at this point in time. I am pleased to highlight the fact that our workforce adjustment process continues to operate with success in reducing the impact of potential layoffs within the civil service.

This year's Estimates process identified a reduction of less than 200 staff years with approximately 100 employees being potentially impacted. Through application of our workforce adjustment process, only 45 letters of layoff were required to be issued in March and April of this year. Currently, 36 employees remain on the redeployment list and, of that number, 17 have been re-employed in various positions resulting in nine employees left to be placed at this point in time. Re-employment efforts will continue for these employees for the period that they remain on the re-employment list.

Total employment in the civil service stood at 14,3 73 as of fiscal year end. This is a slight decrease of 122 employees compared with 1996. Of this total, full-time employment is represented by 11,256 employees, with the remaining 3,1 17 employees being part-time or casual. Since 1991 the total civil service workforce has been reduced by approximately 3,000 employees, or 15 percent. At the same time that the civil service has become smaller, it is also growing older as the predominant baby boom population moves through our workforce.

It is anticipated that, within the next five to 10 years, upwards of 25 percent of our civil service will exercise the right to retire. It is for these reasons that the government, through such measures as the Management Internship Program and recently announced Aboriginal Management Development Project are taking steps to implement new measures for human resource planning and development that will contribute to the renewal of the civil service as these retirements take place over the coming years. Finally, Mr.

Chairperson, as Minister responsible for The Civil Service Act, I would like to take this opportunity to recognize and pay tribute to the tremendous effort and dedication that our provincial civil service has displayed over the past several weeks in battling one of the largest disasters in our province's history. It is at times such as these that public servants, working alongside private citizens and volunteers, have the opportunity to showcase the value of their services, their dedication and their professionalism.

I think we can all take pride in many unsolicited and well deserved compliments that have been expressed by the general public and all forms of the media directed at the terrific effort being put forward by our civil servants. Without question, the response of our civil service to this unprecedented state of emergency has been a real tribute to the quality of the civil service we have grown to enjoy within the province of Manitoba. With these very brief opening remarks, Mr. Chairperson, I would now welcome questions from the members opposite on the Estimates now before us. Mr.

Chairperson: We thank the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett), have any opening statements? Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Chair, just a brief comment as well on the role of the civil service in dealing with the flood of 1997. I think it is a shame, actually, though, that it takes something like a natural disaster of this calibre to bring out positive comments about the civil servants of the Province of Manitoba.

Over the years that I have been in the Legislature, there have been a number of negative comments put forward by various members of the government about the civil service and about, most particularly, the Manitoba Government Employees' Union. *

(1520) While I appreciate the comments put on the record at this point in time by the minister, I think it is incumbent upon the government to understand that the civil service operates that way all the time, more or less; that they do the jobs that they are hired to do. Over the last seven or eight years they have been doing them in very stressful situations on an ongoing basis with a 15 percent reduction in the civil service since 1991. - -

May 21, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 3023 Even though many of those jobs have been reduced through attrition, the process of that attrition has been very stressful on the employees, not knowing who is going to be laid off or who is going to get pink slips, what jobs are going to be eliminated� what is the bumping going to be. All of these situations that happen when layoffs or reductions in the civil service take place lead to an increase in stress and workforce problems, and I do not think over time they have been recognized by the government.

So I am glad to see the government recognizing the positive role of the civil service. I hope that they will continue to do so as they negotiate with the MGEU another collective agreement and in their day-to-day activities and comments in the House and with the people of Manitoba. Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to say the remarks I made are not inconsistent with anything I have put on the record before. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the critic of the official opposition for her remarks. We invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask the minister to introduce his staff present.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I would like to introduce my staff. Paul Hart, sitting next to me, is the civil service commissioner; on his left, Gerry Irving, assistant deputy minister, Labour Relations; and also with us, Bob Pollock, director of Human Resource Programs Branch Mr. Chairperson: We will now proceed to line 17.1. Civil Service Commission (

a) Executive Office

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 20 of the main Estimates book. Item 17. l. (a)(l) $163,600. Shall the item pass? Ms. Barrett: Mr. Chair, I am wondering if the minister could tell me if there are any current vacancies in this area of the department. Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I am told there is one vacancy, one professional staff vacancy, with no budget dollars attached to it. Ms. Barrett: Yes, I see that. No budget dollars attached to it. It would help ifl could read one of these things. So in this Executive Office category there is currently no professional/ technical person under salary? Mr.

Gilleshammer: I am told that the salary numbers reflected there are the salary of the commissioner, a support staff, and the stipends that are paid to board members. Ms. Barrett: Can the minister explain why there is a profe ssional/technical line there since there is not an actual person attached to that, or is it just that this is the standard format for the Estimates reporting? Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I confess that some of the staffing arrangements across government are still a mystery to me, and I recall being told by a previous deputy that sometimes staff years are more valuable than money.

I guess this is a case where a staff year was left in place and there were not dollars attached to it. Ms. Barrett: Yes, I can understand that staff years would be like gold or some other precious metal, particularly with a reduction of 3,000 staff in the civil service as a whole. Is there any concern expressed on the part of other departments that there is this staff year sitting here for at least two years-! am not sure if it goes back any further than that-under Civil Service Commission, when there surely must be other departments that would like to have access to that SY. Mr.

Gilleshammer: I am told that vacant staff years occur in many other departments. Ms. Barrett: Could the minister give me the remuneration rates for the Civil Service Commission, their per diem, if any, and any other rates? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told the remuneration for the chair is $140 a day, and for members it is $70 a day. Ms. Barrett: And is that for a full day or are there some-! recall that there used to be some categories or some boards or commissions that had half-day and full day, so that you could have a full-day meeting and be-

3024 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1997 Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told there is just the one rate in place, that a meeting consists of three and a quarter hours and that there is not a half-day rate. Ms. Barrett: Could the minister tell me when the last time these rates were reviewed or changed, how many years it has been in place? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told it was 1981. Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that there is a statutory-the legislative procedures are that they will be tabled by September 30. Ms.

Barrett: The appeals process-have there been any changes in the procedures that civil servants follow in order to initiate an appeal or to have it heard, or are the processes the same as they have been for the last few years? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told they are standard, that Ms. Barrett: How often does the Civil Service they are referenced in the collective agreement and in Commission meet? The Civil Service Act. Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that it is a minimum of once a month. That once-a-month meeting is on administrative matters, and there may be a second meeting to deal with appeals. Ms.

Barrett: So that only if there were an appeal or appeals needing to be dealt with by the commission would there be more than a once-a-month meeting? Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct. *

(1530) Ms. Barrett: W auld this be an appropriate time to ask about the appeals, numbers of appeals, et cetera? [interjection] Okay. I will do so then. I am wondering if I can get the number of appeals currently before the Civil Service Commission. Mr. Gilleshammer: The annual report that I have before me for '95-96 contains the information. In 1995- 96 there were 15 appeals initiated; there were two appeals heard; there was one appeal granted and one appeal denied. Further to that, in '96-97, there were 13 appeals initiated. Ms. Barrett: I was interested in '96-97 information.

When will the '96-97 annual report be available? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told it will be available before September 30. Ms. Barrett: Is this a normal time delay between the end of the fiscal year and the issuance of the report? Ms. Barrett: I would like to ask a question under the Expected Results component of the Estimates. It says, "Ongoing review and revision to a strategic plan, role and mission for the Civil Service Commission." I am sorry, I did not check last year's Estimates book to see if this is the traditional statement, or is this a new addition to the expected results column? Mr.

Gilleshammer: I am told the statement is identical to last year, and that, historically, they have reviewed it on an annual basis. Ms. Barrett: What focus, or what are the components to that review and any revision? Is there a process that is undertaken? Is it a formal process or an informal process? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told it is the standard strategic planning process that they go through involving senior staff and input from others. Ms. Barrett: Okay, what others? Mr. Gilleshammer: The input is gathered from the board, from the client departments and from other staff within the department. Ms.

Barrett: Is there a formal gathering process? Is it initiated by the civil service staff, or does the Civil Service Commission receive input from the board, other departments and staff rather than proactively going out and asking for information? Mr. Gilleshammer: This is, I am told, information requested by the Civil Service Commission, which, of - -

May 21, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITO BA 3025 course, has regular contact with all of their client departments, but there is a process whereby input is requested. Ms. Barrett: Who does this regular contacting with all the departments? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told it is the directors of the various branches within the Civil Service Commission. Mr. Chairperson: Item 17 .1. Civil Service Commission (

a) Executive Office

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $163,600-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $57,1 00-pass. 1 7 .l .(

b) Administrative Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $542,300-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $280, 700-pass. 17 .1.(

c) Human Resource Management Services ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $979,100. Ms. Barrett: I am sorry. Is it possible to go back to l. (b )? Mr. Gilleshammer: Certainly, we can engage in any process the honourable member wants to here. Ms. Barrett: Thank you. I was distracted. Mr. Chairperson: I have, I believe, unanimous consentto go back to l. (b)(1) or (2). Ms. Barrett: This, I take it, is the Administrative Services and Management Information and Support Services. Am I correct? Thank you.

I am looking at a memo that I received from the previous minister, Minister Toews, last year in response to questions during last year's Estimates stating that there is no specific limit or formula applicable to retained earnings for Organization and Staff Development, i.e., any profits or retained earnings available to the agency at the end of the fiscal year can be used for reinvestment purposes or invested through the Department of Finance on the agency's behalf.

I take it that this means that if OSD runs a surplus that there is no specific directive as to what happens to that surplus; it can either be turned back to the agency or to the Department of Finance. Can the minister give me clarification on this? Mr. Gilleshammer: The question my honourable friend is asking would fall under 1.(

e) Organization and Staff Development Agencies, but the member is correct in her

interpretation. Ms. Barrett: I am sorry to have brought it up under the improper grouping. Should I ask questions under it now? Okay. Well, let us say there is $100,000 profit, just for the sake of discussion. Who makes the determination as to whether that money goes back to OSD or into the general revenue or is targeted back to another department? *

(1540) Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairman, I am told the director would make that decision in consultation with the advisory board and if there was a surplus in discussion with Treasury Board, when the annual review of the operation of the board is held, a determination could be made there to return to general revenue. Ms. Barrett: I am tired, but I think I heard the minister say that, one, the director makes the determination as to what to do with those additional revenues, in consultation with the advisory board, which is one answer, and then talked about Treasury Board being involved as well.

Can he perhaps clarify that. At what point is the decision final? Does the director have the final determination, or does it have to be passed through Treasury Board? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, the director, in consultation with the advisory board, makes that decision. If there is a surplus building that there are no commitments for in the annual reporting to Treasury Board, that money could be returned to general revenue. That is, if they do not have any plans for the money that has built up as a surplus. Ms. Barrett: So the special operating agency, OSD, it would make sense then for it to have plans for any

3026 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1997 operating surplus, to ensure that those retained earnings or that money is able to stay in OSD rather than going back into general revenues. Would that be a process? Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairman, it is a very small agency with, I believe, expenditures around $750,000. They do keep a contingency fund. If there are plans and a need to have funds as determined by the director in consultation with the advisory board, they have the ability to proceed with those expenditures. Ms.

Barrett: So any retained earnings would be found under the contingency fund part of the budget, or could you have an additional source of revenue? I am trying to get at how much autonomy does the OSD have with regard to the money that it has access to. Mr. Gilleshammer: They are no different than any other special operating agency where they have a reasonable degree of autonomy, and they have an advisory board to assist in terms of their planning.

Again, if they have new initiatives that they want to proceed with, they have that opportunity to, in their planning and in their consultation, put that forward and go in that direction if they wish. The retained earnings, I believe, are separate from the contingency fund. Further to that, there is no separate contingency fund. I guess the point that I should be making is that the board will attempt to have a certain level of retained earnings to cover off things like sick leave or other unexpected expenditures. Ms.

Barrett: Okay, so to my inexperienced and unprofessional-in this kind of context, that to me is the kind of thing that you would use a contingency fund for, even though it is not called that. It is money put aside for the kind of expenditures that you might assume might be coming, but you have not potentially budgeted for. Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairman, the retained earnings can be held at a level that these contingencies can be accommodated, and that is part of the discussion the director would have with the advisory board and, in tum, part of their presentation when they have their annual review. Ms.

Barrett: Okay, so the director in consultation with earnings would be legitimate at X level. Then they have an annual review with Treasury Board. Treasury Board could say, no, no, no; it has to be at X-minus-one level, and then Treasury Board then has the authority to tell OSD, go back and reduce your retained earnings. Is that an accurate assessment of the process? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I am told there is a detailed business plan that is filed and that the activities that are encompassed within that detailed business plan are accommodated within their budget. Ms.

Barrett: Yes, I understand that, and I have looked at some of the information about special operating agencies, although not recently. What I am trying to get at is, again, as I said earlier, the level of autonomy that the OSD has. It seems to me that one of the principles of special operating agencies is to act in a businesslike manner and, to that end, to try and work towards total cost recovery to whatever degree is possible in this particular SOA. It could very well be that OSD does that and they have more money than they budgeted for.

I guess what I am asking is, in that case, does Treasury Board have the authority to say, you have not planned for this, you do not have any plans put aside for if you did have some extra money, so we are going to take a portion of that and put it back into general revenue? Do the efficiencies accrue back to the special operating agency or would they go into, potentially could they go into the general revenue, based on the decision of Treasury Board? Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, the member is asking a hypothetical question.

The special operating agency works very well towards its business plan and, by having an accurate plan of activities, they are able to live within their budget. Ms. Barrett: Okay, so getting not hypothetical but actual, has this special operating agency ever had money taken away from it by the Department of Finance to be invested, as the previous minister said, on the agency's behalf? * (15 50) the advisory board could determine that the retained Mr. Gilleshammer: The answer is no. - -

May 21, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 3027 Ms. Barrett: I would like to talk a little bit, or ask some questions about the Better Methods Initiative that is identified under this 1.(b ), the Service First Initiative under activity identification, participate in the Better Methods Initiative. Is this the proper place? Okay. One of the statements around the Phase I findings is something I would like to ask about. It says, and I quote: Staff who work within these processes and systems will be affected by these dramatic changes.

Better Methods is committed to a $5-million government-wide Workforce Adjustment Program, including, but not limited to, retraining, redeployment, and job search training. Choices will be tailored to each individual. I would like to get some more specific information about that $5-million government-wide Workforce Adjustment Program. Mr.

Gilleshammer: I am informed that the question the member is asking is not lodged within the Civil Service expenditures but rather under the Enabling Appropriations located on page 129 of the budget document, Internal Reform, Workforce Adjustment, and I believe the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) is the in dividual responsible for that particular budget line. Ms.

Barrett: Okay, then maybe the minister can clarify for me the first statement under activity identification which says, participate in the Better Methods Initiative to implement and integrate a human resource management system and the expected results at the end which is completion of Phase 3 of the Better Methods project, et cetera. Mr. Gilleshammer: What that indicates, Mr. Chairman, is that we are one of many departments participating in the Better Methods Initiative. Ms. Ba rrett: That is exactly what the activity identification says. What I am asking for is an explanation of what that means.

How are you participating in it? Can you clarify what specifics are involved in that participation? Mr. Gilleshammer: Our participation in this government-wide initiative is that we are involved in a new human resource information system, and it is part of a corporate-computerized system to deal with human resources. Ms. Barrett: So the staff in the Department of the Civil Service Commission or that part of government does not participate in the Better Methods Initiative in any other way other than the implementation of the CHRIS system, if that is what you are mentioning? Mr.

Gilleshammer: Our major participation is in the development of that system. Ms. Barrett: Okay, maybe this has a connection. I am not sure, but under the Salaries and Employee Benefits I see that, again, the Professional!fechnical column has lost an SY. Then there is a note at the bottom, although it is not connected-oh, yes, there is. I am assuming that that is the computer programmer position that has been lost. Has that position gone to another part of government, or is that part of the staffing reductions in the civil service as a whole? Mr.

Gilleshammer: This was a vacant position within the department and one that the department felt they could eliminate. Ms. Barrett: Is that the only vacancy in this section? Mr. Gilleshammer: At the current time, the director's position is vacant. Ms. Barrett: That is the Managerial category? Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct. Ms. Barrett: How long has the managerial position, the director's position, been vacant, and when do you anticipate filling it? Mr. Gilleshammer: It has been vacant six or seven weeks, and the department anticipates filling it in the not-too-distant future. *

(1600) Ms. Barrett: I just am intrigued actually by the fact that under the Executive Office subappropriation the Professi onal!fechnical SY has been vacant for at least

3028 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 21 , 1997 two sets of Estimates. I have not gone back to '95-96 to see if it was vacant at that point, and yet it still shows it has not been given up by the Civil Service Commission. Here we have a professional/technical computer programmer position under subappropriation 17 .I (

b) that has been vacant for, well, I do not know how long, but now is seen to be not necessary. It seems to me that on the one hand, in the Executive Office, you are holding a vacant SY, and in the Admin Services you are saying we can get along without a computer programmer, at the same time that your participation in the Better Methods Initiative is basically dealing with a computer system, if I am hearing you correctly. Mr. Gilleshammer: These should be seen as two totally different positions. The one position has no dollars attached to it.

The one that was eliminated was a vacant position with dollars attached to it. Ms. Barrett: I know that, Mr. Minister. That is clear. But why is there such a difference in dealing with these positions? It seems to me this is an indication of how civil servants must feel really discombobulated, if you will, about how you can have a professional technical position in-1 am sure it is a- An Honourable Member: How do you spell it, Harold? Somebody downstairs is running for a dictionary. Ms. Barrett: I will get a call later, I am sure.

How you can hold onto an SY, a professional technical SY, in one area for two years, at least, with no dollars attached to it and still maintain that SY, and in another area, an area that would appear to me to be necessary if you are involved in establishing management systems with computerization, et cetera, the Civil Service Commission feels it can eliminate a staff year in an area that would seem to me to be necessary. I do not understand the Human Resource Management rationale between these two professional technical positions. Mr.

Gilleshammer: We have very experienced and dedicated managers within the Civil Service Commission who make staffing decisions that are within their purview that allow them to operate to fulfill what they perceive their needs to be. If I read my honourable friend right, what she is saying is that perhaps we should eliminate the staff year that has no dollar attached to it as well. I am not sure where she is going with that. Ms. Barrett: No, the minister continues to not read the honourable member for Wellington correctly.

I am not for a moment suggesting that you eliminate the executive office professional technical staff year with no dollars attached. In effect, you have eliminated it. What you have done, it seems to me, is by keeping it as a staff year but not putting any money attached to it, you can say you are not eliminating it, but, in effect, it is not being filled. It would seem to me that if I were someone from another department, I would say why are you keeping this SY here when we have eliminated, streamlined and are looking to streamline and make Jean and mean, effective and efficient, our civil service?

You are sitting here with an SY, a professional technical SY, with no money attached to it when I, in the Department of Labour, Department of Family Services, the Department of Culture, could certainly use that SY. Why are you keeping that one vacant with no money attached to it and for whom perhaps is another question? Mr. Gilleshammer: There is an opportunity for all departments to plan to achieve whatever staff levels they feel are required for the running of their department, and I am not aware that other departments have not dealt with this in a professional manner as well.

These decisions were made two years ago, or that decision was. Again, within government things change from time to time, and the managers of the Civil Service Commission have made staffing decisions that they feel are in the best interests of the performance of the Civil Service Commission. Ms. Barrett: Who makes the decision that the Executive Office, Professional/Technical position will not be filled, but the SY will remain under the Civil Service Commission? Mr.

Gilleshammer: The department annually reviews their needs and comes up with the plan for the upcoming year that they ultimately have budget resources for. -

May 21, 1997 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 3029 Ms. Barrett: I am wondering if the minister can tell me, or get the information to me if he does not have it available right now, what that position was when it was filled. ? Does the Civil Service Commission anticipate filling that position at some time in the future and that is the reason they are keeping the SY? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that this was a support staff to the appeal's process within the commission, and if my honourable friend looks at the Civil Service Commission Annual Report, the number of appeals has been declining over the years.

In 1991-92 and 1992-93 there were over twice as many appeals initiated. So the workload at the Appeals Commission has declined and, as a result, they are able to manage with one fewer staff in that area. Ms. Barrett: Well, if that is the ca<>e, why does the Civil Service Commission not just eliminate that SY from their department and redeploy it to someone else's department? Why keep that vacant when you have under Admin Services what sounds to me like exactly the same situation, that you can deal effectively with one fewer computer programmer, so you reduce the SYs?

Do you anticipate, perhaps, an increase in the appeal process at some time in the near future? Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, we are optimistic that the trend with the appeals will continue to decline, but the staff year was left there in case there is more activity at the Appeals Commission. If those appeals start to increase again and there is more work there, then they have the ability, in terms of that staff year, to add that staffback in. This is not unique to this particular department.

There are other departments across government with vacancies, and departments, of course, require funding if they are going to fill vacancies and sometimes that is a bit of a problem. *

(1610) Ms. Barrett: Not to belabour the point, and I will try not to, but precisely the point I am trying to make in the Admin Services, under the Managerial category, there currentiy is a vacancy, although it is showing that it is intended to be filled very shortly for a whole year. I do not understand why. Well, it does not seem to me to be logical that you leave the SY in there with no money attached if you think there is a possibility that you may need it. If you give the SY away, yes, then you may have more difficulty in getting it back from another department.

But to have the SY with no money, if you find that you need it, you are going to have to come back with an additional appropriation or a change in the budget to begin with. I guess what you are saying is that you want to hold that staff year in reserve in case the appeals do increase. It would be interesting, and I think what I will do is maybe look at other departments and see how many situations like this there are, where there is a staff year with no money attached. But I will leave that particular area, and go on. I am prepared to pass l. (

b) as well. Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I think the member has got it. That is the correct

interpretation of that particular staff year. I am sure that the senior staff here will review her concerns. If they are deemed to be appropriate, we will certainly examine whether that is possible. Mr. Chairperson: Item 17. l .(

b) Administrative Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $542,300-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $280,700-pass. 17 .1.(

c) Human Resource Management Services ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $979,100. Ms. Barrett: Are we at l. (

c) Human Resource programs, right? Mr. Chairperson: Human Resource Management Services. Ms. Barrett: Yes, I am not going by the budget book, but by the Estimates. Mr. Chairperson: I am sorry. Ms. Barrett: That is okay. The same question as I have asked before, are there any vacancies in this area other than the reduction in administrative support of one staff year, any other vacancies that are currently in this category? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told we have one person on long-term disability.

3030 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA May 21, 19 97 Ms. Barrett: In what category is that person? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told it is professional. Ms. Barrett: Thank you. The previous minister sent to me, May 14 of last year actually, or it was prepared on May 14 of 19 96, the Affirmative Action Indicators Distribution: Government Employees By Occupation as of March 31, 19 96. I am wondering if the minister has the updated 19 97. Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, we do. Ms. Barrett: May I have a copy? Mr. Gilleshammer: We would be pleased to arrange that. Ms. Barrett: May I have a copy now? Mr.

Chairperson: This is the copy of? Mr. Gille shammer: Yes, we are tabling the Employment Equity In dicators. Do you want one, Daryl? Do you need one? No. Ms. Barrett: I appreciate getting this from the minister, and I will try before the end of Estimates to be able to take a look at it and see if there are some questions that I might want to ask.

In this category, Human Resource programs, I am wondering if this a place where I could talk about the individual who is on secondment from the Department of Justice to Labour for training, that the critic for Labour mentioned to the Minister of Labour in the previous Estimates. Mr. Gilleshammer: The staff from the Civil Service Commission I do not believe have any details on the individual, if that is what the member is asking? Ms. Barrett: No, it was not a specific. It was as !-[interjection] The process, yes. Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, we can deal with the Ms.

Barrett: I guess what I am asking was, from my listening to the exchange that took place earlier in the Department of Labour Estimates, it seemed to me that a secondment for training is an unusual procedure. I may be incorrect in this, but it does seem to me that the secondments that I have heard of before have been where the person being seconded has skills and expertise in areas that are required in the department to which he/she is being seconded. This would appear to be a reversal of that, that the person being seconded is getting training rather than providing expertise.

The first question: Am I stating the situation in this case correctly; and, secondly, am I accurate in saying that this is an unusual process to be undertaken in the secondment procedure? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I am told that this is not an unusual secondment. It is an employment opportunity where an individual probably comes to the job with some interest and skills and enables them to participate in what could be termed a developmental assignment, and with employment opportunities across the civil service varying from time to time, this is an opportunity that someone can take advantage of. Ms.

Barrett: So it would appear to me that the seconding department, in this case Justice, says we have got enough staff, we can afford to have this person go to another department for training. I would assume then that the Department of Justice anticipates the return of this person at some point. Mr. Gilleshammer: This probably should be seen as an employment opportunity to expand one's horizons, to come to a new position with some skills and an opportunity to develop some new skills, so that if they should go back or when they go back to the sending department they go back with further skills.

I am led to believe that this is not an unusual way of getting further training. I am given a page from The Civil Service Commission Act here where under personnel selection it says: The commission shall whenever possible and in the public interest fill vacancies in the civil service by promotion within the civil service and, further to that, take such action and measures as it may deem necessary to anticipate and meet the need for well qualified personnel at higher levels in the civil service. process. * ( 16 20) - -

May 21, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 3031 So, again, I am not just sure what the member is asking, but this is an opportunity within the civil service for a person in one department to achieve some additional expertise and training in another department. It is a way of, I suppose, gaining that on a secondment basis. Ms. Barrett: Oh, I have no doubt that it is an opportunity to get training and experience in another department. That is clearly going to happen.

It seems to me, though, that if you are seconded for training, or if you are a staff person who is in this position, then potentially you have a leg up, as it were, should a permanent job be open in the seconding department, in this case it would be Labour. Training for what I guess-is this person who is seconded for training in the Worker Advisor department then not going to be able to step into a worker advisor position, have a better shot at that potential position than other members of the civil service? Is this not preferential treatment? Is this not grooming, if you will, someone for another posi tion? Mr.

Gilleshammer: Well, I guess I am trying to explain the reality of how the civil service and departments interrelate with one another. If I am reading the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) correctly, she is opposed to anyone from one department going to another department and is opposed to providing that sort of opportunity that people would have to move from one department and learn additional skills within another department, because it gives them some advantage. I guess I have never thought of it in that way.

I am told that people move from one department to another from time to time, and it is an opportunity to gain experience and skills, and, perhaps, to apply for other positions across the civil service. So I do not think we are breaking new ground here, that this is very standard management action across government. I think it has been a practice of long standing, not something that came into effect in recent years, but a practice that is in vogue in other provinces and this province for some time. I am told there are all sorts of examples where this is happening and has happened in government in the past. Ms.

Barrett: Normally, I would assume the secondment for expertise, if I could say it that way, a requesting department asking for a secondment of a person who has a particular skill or area of expertise that the requesting department would like to take advantage of, that that is the process, that the seconding department asks for this person or a person with these particular skills. In the case of secondment for training, what is the process? Does the individual ask to be seconded? Would this individual, for example, have asked to be seconded from Justice to Labour to be trained in a patticular category?

Is this secondment for training open to all civil servants? Is there a process whereby any civil servant can access this secondment process, and could the minister undertake in the future to provide me with a list of the number of people who are seconded for training from department to department? Mr. Gillesbammer: Yes, I am told that the secondment can be initiated by the employee, that numbers of employees indicate that they would like a new work experience. It can be initiated by management.

That secondment has been used across government by all departments or virtually all departments, and it is not an unusual practice. It offers opportunities to try out a new experience and a new department. I am not totally familiar with the process that was followed in this case, but I think when we discussed this yesterday-! think if this is the same individual we are discus sing-this was a person who was a lawyer and a nurse, and there was an opportunity to move from one department to another and expand one's horizons by taking on a new challenge. Ms.

Barrett: Again, I ask the minister if he would be able to provide me at some future point-1 know he probably does not have the information now-but if he could undertake to provide me with a list of the training secondments and the departments from which they are coming to which they are going as separate from requests for secondments to fill a need of the requesting department. Is it possible to do that? Secondly, the minister is saying there are currently nine people still on the redeployment list. Have they been given access to this request for training?

It seems to me that this might be a way for them to be able to

3032 LEGISLATIV E ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 21, 1997 find a new niche for themselves in the civil service. Are they being given access to this training-secondment process? Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, my honourable friend has asked for some information on secondments across government. We can certainly report on the Civil Service Commission. We have people, I understand, who have been seconded from departments and people from the Civil Service Commission who are serving in other departments at the present time.

I notice that the member puts a lot of emphasis on the word "training." Virtually all of the secondments have a training component to them in that what is happening is that somebody is going from one position to another position or one department to another department. I suppose it would be realistic to believe that some people would fit in on Day One, because they have a certain knowledge and expertise that would suit them for that particular position. In other cases, it may take some time longer for the person to adjust to the new environment and adjust to a new position.

But we would be happy to provide as quickly as possible information that we have on secondments, and if the member wanted it right across government, we would have to be in contact with other government departments to get an accurate snapshot of what is happening within those departments. Ms. Barrett: I put the emphasis on training because it seems to me, from my experience with the Estimates process and hearing about secondments, that this is the first I have heard of a secondment for training. Anytime you make a job change or move to a different off

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-3-48
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 3rd hansardpdf 48.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	842baf8a4304867a8618ed1fb08dbf324429c2ba

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