1993 Legislative Session: 2nd Session, 35th Parliament HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only. The printed version remains the official version.

Official Report of

DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(Hansard)

TUESDAY, JUNE 22, 1993

Afternoon Sitting

Volume 11, Number 12

[ Page 7613 ]

The House met at 2:05 p.m.

Introduction of Bills

FOREST AMENDMENT ACT (No. 2), 1993

Hon. D. Miller presented a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Forest Amendment Act (No. 2), 1993.

Hon. D. Miller: Hon. Speaker, it is my pleasure to introduce Bill 56 to the House. This bill makes minor amendments to the Forest Act, relating to basic silviculture. It also expands

part 15 of the Forest Act -- study areas -- to deal with a number of situations where, as a result of a land use change, harvesting has to be restricted or reduced.

The silviculture amendments are intended to clarify the definition of basic silviculture and the legal status of silvicultural prescriptions approved by the ministry. In addition, the proposed amendments provide the Forest Service district managers with authority to exempt the Crown or a licensee from carrying out basic silviculture on lands when such work is not needed or appropriate.

The amendments to

part 15 expand the scope of the section. That

section was established to provide the ministry with necessary administrative powers to deal with forest management issues arising from the establishment of study areas under the protected-areas strategy. The proposed amendments will provide the necessary administrative powers to deal with other situations where land use change requires limiting or restricting harvesting which had previously been planned. Examples include temporarily safeguarding newly protected areas until lands can be deleted under

section 53 of the Forest Act and protecting areas where special management prescriptions are to be implemented.

I move that the bill be read a first time now.

Bill 56 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

TOBACCO TAX AMENDMENT ACT, 1993

Hon. G. Clark presented a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Tobacco Tax Amendment Act, 1993.

Hon. G. Clark: Hon. Speaker, Bill 46 proposes amendments to the Tobacco Tax Act that are revenue protection measures. The bill provides authority for the province to enter into an agreement with the federal government under which federal postal agents would collect tax on tobacco mailed into the province from outside of Canada. The bill also establishes enforcement, offence and penalty provisions for possession of tobacco in contravention of the act or regulations. These provisions are necessary to support the tobacco marking system established under the Tobacco Tax Act regulations in May of this year.

I move the bill be read a first time now.

Bill 46 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Oral Questions

VANCOUVER COMMUNITY COLLEGE DEFICIT

F. Gingell: Hon. Speaker, I understand that Vancouver Community College is presently operating at a deficit of approximately $500,000 a month. Could the Minister of Advanced Education tell us what action he has taken with regard to this matter?

Hon. T. Perry: I'd be delighted to, and I thank the hon. Leader of the Opposition for my first question of the session.

He will know, having been chair of the Kwantlen College board in the past, that college boards are not allowed to operate with a deficit. There's a very good public reason why they should not. They receive a grant in consideration of which they are expected to provide services to students.

The government made it very clear to Vancouver Community College in the past -- at the change of the board during the strike at Langara campus last fall, and again during discussions prior to a settlement with the faculty union at the King Edward and downtown campuses last February -- that the college would be expected to live within a balanced budget. Given some of the difficulties it had experienced in the past, we allowed the board some flexibility to bring in a balanced budget over a total three-year cycle by the year 1995-96.

F. Gingell: Clearly, if they're going to be required to balance their budget they'll have to cut back some programs. Can the minister please advise us whether he has given them any instructions about which programs should not be cut back?

An Hon. Member: Yes or no.

Hon. T. Perry: The Leader of the Official Opposition has asked an intelligent question, and he's entitled to an attempt at a reasonable answer at least.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order, please.

Hon. T. Perry: The board at the college, as the questioner well knows, has the authority to make decisions about the budget. We have indicated that the government would take a dim view of the college, which received substantial increases in funding this year, substantial one-time special grants last year and very favourable budgetary treatment from the government over the last several years, were it to take out its problems on the disadvantaged students that it particularly serves. I've made it very clear that the

[ Page 7614 ]

The Speaker: A final supplemental, hon. member.

F. Gingell: If you take the college's program and cut out what the minister says they mustn't, all it leaves is skills development and training. Will I be wasting my time the rest of this week attending the Premier's special summit on skills development and training?

Hon. T. Perry: I'm delighted that the hon. member has been honoured with one of the invitations to that summit. He will definitely not be wasting his time. Attending the summit is one of the best investments he could possibly make of his time.

WINDY CRAGGY PROJECT

J. Weisgerber: My question is to the Deputy Premier. By killing the Windy Craggy project without even giving it the benefit of an environmental assessment process, the government has ignored the process that it is putting in place. Will the government follow the advice that it received from Stephen Owen and have a proper environmental hearing, or doesn't the government care at all what northerners think about this project and the need for jobs and opportunities in the area where they live?

Hon. A. Hagen: The Leader of the Third Party is speaking about the announcement made by the Premier this morning on behalf of our government on the preservation and setup of a world-class park in the Tatshenshini area -- an announcement of which we on this side of the House are inordinately proud. This park of over a million acres will preserve wildlife and wilderness values and put us at the international forefront. It is a decision that this government will be proud to have as part of its heritage.

We will work with other parties to ensure that our decision becomes part of an international park in this area that will add to the economy and social and preservation values that we have espoused as a government.

[2:15]

The Speaker: Supplemental, Leader of the Third Party.

J. Weisgerber: British Columbians resent having land use decisions made in the White House rather than here in Victoria. Clearly the government would rather be politically correct with Al Gore and Bill Clinton than recognize the responsibility it has to the people of British Columbia. Will the Deputy Premier agree today to table any and all correspondence this government has had with the Clinton administration regarding the Tatshenshini area?

Hon. A. Hagen: Hon. Speaker, this is a provincial decision; it is a decision of this New Democrat government. As I said a moment ago, it is a decision of which we are very proud. Let me take a look with the members of this House at the development of this decision. Let us go back to the paper, and investigation of Stephen Owen, where he fundamentally advised the government that in this decision there was no way for wilderness preservation to take place when the mine develops.

This decision preserves wilderness values; a decision where the CORE process and the work of government has come to a balanced decision that will be welcomed by people all over the province, nationally and internationally, in the establishment of this world-class park.

J. Weisgerber: If the Deputy Premier hasn't had an opportunity to read Mr. Owen's report, let me urge her to do so today. The mining industry has lost whatever faith and confidence it has had in this government. The Windy Craggy decision was made without any consultation. Is the government determined to finish today what Dave Barrett started 20 years ago, and kill the mining industry in British Columbia?

Hon. A. Hagen: No. This is not an anti-mining decision. At this very time development processes are in place for seven mines in British Columbia. This government is developing a mining policy for the province. This decision does not speak to mining; it speaks to the setting up of something unparalleled in the world: a park in British Columbia which, along with parks in the Yukon and Alaska, will make up the largest international contiguous park and preserve wilderness values in a way that has never been done before.

This government is enormously proud to have made a balanced decision -- one that will set in motion that heritage not only for our people but for other people in the world as we work with other nations on that park.

TREATY COST-SHARING AGREEMENTS

V. Anderson: My question is to the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs. The Premier has repeatedly stated that this province will not agree to any cost-sharing agreements in treaties the taxpayers cannot afford. Could the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs indicate where the money is coming from for the agreements that were entered into by this government last week?

Hon. A. Petter: While the agreement we have signed on cost-sharing doesn't tell us what the cost of treaty negotiations will be -- that will be subject to the negotiations itself -- it protects the interests of British Columbians very well. Indeed, in terms of treaty settlement costs, British Columbia's share of cash and cash equivalents has been limited to under 25 percent and should average around 17 percent of the total costs. However, that includes credit to the province for land

[ Page 7615 ]

values that are contributed in the form of market values in some cases and foregone resource values in others. That means that the cash share of the province is going to be very small in order to fulfil this agreement at the treaty negotiation table.

The Speaker: Supplemental, hon. member.

V. Anderson: The amount involved is still going to be in the millions, even at 17 percent plus the third-party 50 percent. It will still be in the millions, if not billions, of dollars. Where is this included in the budget of this government at this time?

Hon. A. Petter: Hon. Speaker, I very much enjoyed engaging with the member opposite on this very issue during the estimates debate. We came to an understanding -- at least I thought we had -- that the province couldn't afford not to go ahead with this very important initiative. The member himself has acknowledged that $1 billion in investment is not coming into the province because we failed to resolve this issue.

Furthermore, under this agreement many more dollars will come into this province from other provinces, like Quebec and Ontario, through the contribution of the federal government, because the federal government is going to pay back this province for the failure of its past policies to address these social issues. That will be a major economic contribution to our well-being.

The Speaker: Final supplemental.

V. Anderson: I understand the minister's shell game. Under which shell is the money at the moment? We want to know in what aspect this is going to be in the budget. When will it appear in the budget of this government?

Hon. A. Petter: Due to this cost-sharing agreement, as we move towards treaty negotiations, we now have the ability to assess the precise cost to British Columbians of various alternatives. We'll be able to put financial controls in place to ensure that treaty settlements will be affordable, as the Premier indicated. Those costs will show up in the budget estimates as we proceed through treaty settlements.

But I want to encourage the hon. member to look not just at the short-term costs but also at the short- and long-term benefits of this agreement, because they are going to be substantial in terms of investment and certainty. That is why both aboriginal and third-party interests spoke out yesterday in favour of this very fine agreement for B.C.

EFFECT OF TAX INCREASES ON BUSINESS

G. Wilson: My question is to the Minister of Finance. Throughout this province business people are getting together -- tonight, in fact, in the municipality of Prince George -- to argue that reform is needed in the Assessment Authority because of the increase in municipal taxes. Many people who are subjected to triple-net leases are unable to pay the bills that are before them, and their businesses are going bankrupt. What is the Minister of Finance doing to look after the increase in taxes that is affecting businesses all over this province?

Hon. G. Clark: An excellent question from the member. I was very surprised to read in the paper today that the mayor of Vancouver -- I'm sure members of the Liberal Party are familiar with him -- who also happens to be the chair of the Greater Vancouver Regional District and was the president of the UBCM, had the audacity to suggest that somehow the provincial government is responsible for the spiralling property taxes paid by municipal taxpayers.

A tax-capping mechanism that required provincial government approval was requested by the city of Vancouver and Mayor Campbell in the past. When we took office, Mayor Campbell asked us not to proceed with tax capping but instead to bring in annual assessments and three-year averaging of taxes. At his request, we acceded to their recommendations, and we brought in that law. Now his property taxpayers in Vancouver are screaming about rising property values, and he has the audacity to suggest that somehow it's a provincial responsibility.

Since coming to office, no request for tax capping has ever been received by this administration. In addition, as chairman of the GVRD, Mayor Campbell has presided over three of the largest budget increases in the history of B.C.

Hon. B. Barlee: After that ringing speech, may I have leave of the House to introduce some visitors from overseas?

Leave granted.

Hon. B. Barlee: I had the unique pleasure of meeting the representatives from Swaziland, the High Commissioner Mary Kanya and her two aides, who are visiting British Columbia for a very temporary visit. We'd like to welcome them to our fair province.

Orders of the Day

Hon. M. Sihota: First of all, let me advise all hon. members that the House will be sitting tomorrow at 2 o'clock so that we can continue the same line of questioning we just finished in question period.

I believe we have a report from Committee A with regard to the estimates of the Ministry of Agriculture.

The Speaker: Perhaps the Government House Leader could clarify for the Chair. Are we undergoing a

summary of completed estimates from Committee A?

Hon. M. Sihota: Yes, hon. Speaker. Later on I will deal with the rest of the business for today.

REPORT ON COMMITTEE A ESTIMATES

H. De Jong: It gives me great pleasure to report on the discussions we've had during the estimates. There are basically three issues facing agriculture today: monetary issues, environmental issues and the testing

[ Page 7616 ]

of new equipment. I briefly want to summarize my comments on those three.

The minister and the cabinet know full well that the agriculture industry is based on land and facilities to accommodate the cattle, flocks of birds and what have you -- all adding up to a high capital investment. This capital investment is continually being challenged by higher municipal taxes, school taxes and, of course, on top of that, the corporate tax initiated by this government. If indeed agriculture is as important as people think it is -- and as I believe it is -- it's high time governments at all levels took a serious look at the taxation on farmland, farm buildings and farm holdings collectively.

[2:30]

The other part has to do with all the loans that have, to a large degree, been designated to environmental issues. The loans were there for the farmer to improve, expand and modernize equipment and facilities in order to meet the continuous competition, of all sorts, within agriculture. I was disappointed to hear that the minister has decided that 60 percent of these funds have to be designated for environmental issues dealing with agriculture. The farming community is environmentally sensitive. I feel that it's unfair that the government has decided that 60 percent of those moneys have to be designated for that specific purpose.

The other item we briefly touched on was the testing of new equipment and other things related to agriculture production. I believe that there could be a great improvement in terms of assisting the farming community if the government were involved in testing new products and varieties like they do on experimental farms. There would also be an opportunity on those farms, or on the normal farm, for new types of equipment, such as a prototype, to be tested, with some assistance from the Ministry of Agriculture.

This is where the agriculture community is really putting a lot of money at stake, often not knowing how well a machine will perform and how much it will help them in agricultural production.

Having said those things, I believe that collectively we've achieved a much better understanding of agriculture, and I want to wish the ministry the very best. Of course, this being Dairy Month, it's very appropriate to give recognition to that as well.

R. Chisholm: Over the past 19 months, since this NDP government has taken office, Agriculture and Fisheries have been a low priority. In the last two throne and budget speeches, Agriculture has not even been mentioned. The last two budgets have drastically reduced this ministry's total budget from $96.4 million in 1991-92 to $89.1 million in 1993-94, which is a reduction of $7.3 million in 19 months. But the actual axe to Agriculture is much greater. Why? Because during this time the minister's office and staff have increased their spending.

The minister's office expenditures alone increased by $20,000 in the last 19 months. The ministry's operations for staff assets have increased by $2.9 million under this minister. Let me repeat: that is an increase of over $20,000 in the minister's office and $2.9 million in ministry operations -- at a time when this government is yelling "restraint."

It's time to curb ministers' expenditures. If this is NDP restraint, this province is in for big trouble. The only restraint this government and the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries know is to restrain and kill farmers and fishermen. For a true reading of how much this government has killed Agriculture and Fisheries since it took office just over a year ago, we note that in 1991-92 over $32 million was used to assist the industry, but in 1993-94 it was reduced to $22.4 million. This is the actual hands-on money to the farmer.

Therefore, in a little over a year, this Minister of Agriculture has reduced assistance to Agriculture and Fisheries on such things as the ALR to the tune of $9.7 million. That is a 30 percent direct reduction to Agriculture and Fisheries at a time when this minister knows the industry needs assistance.

When this minister was in opposition less than two years ago, he said on page 11276 of Hansard, July 23, 1990: "The minister is making a tacit admission that there are sectors of the agricultural community definitely at peril. He mentioned there were some vegetable growers and berry growers -- and of course, soft fruits. What about the milk producers?"

I further note on page 11283 of Hansard, July 27, 1990: "We talk about the grain farmers. The grain farmers in the Peace River are having a heck of a tough time." As soon as he became minister, he made worse the very things he promised to rectify: a 30 percent reduction in the industry, while the minister and his office take an increase of $2.9 million. That $2.9 million would go a long way to help the farmers and fishermen of this province. With a total ministry budget of $89.1 million in 1993, it is sad that only $22.4 million goes to assist farmers and fishermen.

This minister has devoted a mere 25 percent of his budget to assist an industry that is hurting. This is appalling, and must not be tolerated.

Agriculture and fisheries have been our wealth since the beginning of our country. This minister is ruining our province and our main resources. To the Minister of Agriculture, who presented a disastrous budget, I say: "Change it to favour the industry, or resign."

Hon. B. Barlee: Perhaps we should take a rational look at agriculture. We should strip the politics apart -- which the member for Abbotsford did, in his usual gentlemanly way -- and make a real analysis of the position of agriculture in British Columbia.

There are 280 commodities or sectors under the food industry in British Columbia. Out of those 280, seven are on what we call the danger list. Like any other business, agriculture is vulnerable. But the other 273 are doing quite well. Let's see how well they really are doing. First of all, the total number of people employed by the ministry in agriculture, fisheries and food is 209,000. Those 209,000 people are employed whether there is a recession, a recession-depression or good times. This industry regularly grows from 3 to 5 percent every year. How well has it grown?

Let's take a look at the total income from agriculture, fisheries and food in 1972. The total income in 1972 was $210 million. In 1992 it was $2.1 billion -- ten times as much in 20 years. Let's

[ Page 7617 ]

take a real look at it and use the federal figures. Eight years ago we had about 20,000 farms in B.C. -- I believe 19,342 to be exact. We had about 30 bankruptcies, which is really quite low. The figures the year before last were 15 bankruptcies in B.C., the lowest per capita in Canada. Last year there were ten bankruptcies, by far the lowest in Canada. Let's look at average net income. Certainly the critic forgot to mention that. The average net income in B.C. is the highest in the country. It came up 21 percent in 1991 and is projected at a 24 percent increase in 1992. Certainly no other agricultural ministry in the country that can match that.

We have employed a long-term strategy. The strategy isn't perfect all the time. We have to launch pilot projects and we have to look at it very rationally. The member said I wasn't spending enough money one time and then that I was spending too much. This is a ministry that has been downsized as far as economic benefits are concerned, but on balance the farmers themselves are doing very well. So let's look at three or four of those areas where we're concerned.

One of them, certainly, is cross-border shopping. Cross-border shopping costs B.C. around $1.7 billion per annum; that's $5 million every day. In British Columbia alone it is as if we were sending five millionaires down into the state of Washington, Montana or Idaho -- because they all border B.C. -- and they come back with nothing. We're doing that seven days a week. This is a hemorrhage we have to at least address. We won't be able to stop all of that, but we may be able to stop part of it.

We've launched a very serious study with an innovative and creative individual who owns an advertising agency called Ravenwolf House. It's not your Madison Avenue advertising agency, but he's a guy who is creative and innovate, and he's looking at this problem. Cross-border shopping is driven by a number of things. In some instances it's driven by lower prices, sometimes by a different type of service, by the price of gasoline, the price of food and sometimes by adventure. We're looking at this, and we've put the first phase into production.

When we analyze that first phase, if it's successful, we'll go onto the second phase. We're never going to reduce it entirely.

Another thing we're looking at extremely closely is our Buy B.C. program, which will span five years and spend $9.5 million. Last year, the first year of the program, we spent $400,000. This year we're going to spend $1.5 million. And we're not throwing the money away here, we're being extremely cautious. We've launched two pilot projects. One is the Thrifty's project that we debated at length in the estimates. Thrifty Foods, as most people know, is a small B.C.-owned chain store that operates in British Columbia. They had nine stores and they've done so well that now they have ten.

In conjunction with one other agency, we launched a program there that high-profiled B.C. produce. We were told that consumer loyalty in B.C. was very low, so we checked 43 jurisdictions across North America -- 38 states in the United States and five provinces. We found that consumer loyalty in B.C. is not low. It's probably the best in North America. The results of Thrifty's campaign over two weeks indicated that. Ordinarily when a chain store puts on a promotion, their traffic increase is 2 percent. Thrifty's traffic came up between 9 and 10 percent.

The average sales of the 27 companies went up 168 percent, and some of them went up 930 percent. We placed 27 new products on the shelves. Amazingly enough, Thrifty's kept most of those customers. With the exception of one, all the other retail chains in British Columbia are now sitting at the table with me on the minister's advisory council. They are at the table for the first time in 20 years.

What else have we addressed? We have addressed the Agricultural Land Reserve Act, which was brought in 20 years ago. No act is perfect; either you have to revise it or you have to strengthen it. We are strengthening the Agricultural Land Reserve Act.

What have we done in the last year? I'll tell you what we've done, and it's extremely important -- what I consider hallmark legislation. There are approximately 11.5 million acres under the land reserve. We lost about 1,130 acres last year, which is under one-hundredth of 1 percent. This has all sorts of ramifications. It adds to the quality of life for people who live in southern Vancouver Island, Vancouver or in the Okanagan, where there's a great deal of pressure on the land. The ALR is under significant pressure in those areas.

So we are strengthening that particular act, and I look to the future, where we will retain our greenbelts in British Columbia not just for the benefit of the farmers but for the public at large.

Finally, we are also reaching outside and looking at other treaties that are impacting on us. The members opposite all voted for NAFTA. The NAFTA is a very interesting agreement, but even the Americans are looking at NAFTA now and saying: "Hold it here. There are some things in this agreement we don't like. It's going to be very difficult for us to compete with Mexican labour." And indeed it is. So I think you should have another rational look at that, and I think you will; I think you'll live to regret it.

Other treaties come into play; the Pacific Salmon Treaty is an example. We have had a treaty with the Americans since 1985 -- about eight years ago. If you compare what they have done in the United States of America to what we have done in Canada, there is a vast difference. The two great salmon rivers in the world were the Columbia River, which was the greatest, and the Fraser River, which was the second-greatest. What did we do? We took very good care of the Fraser River. We sacrificed some economic benefits because we didn't dam it.

The result is that last year we had the biggest run of salmon in the Fraser River since 1913. That salmon run is coming back because we have practised conservation. What did the Americans do? They put dozens and dozens of dams on the Columbia River and all its tributaries, so that once magnificent run of salmon in that area is virtually gone. Now they want to dip into our resources in the Fraser River. They want 100 percent more. We're saying -- and we side with the federal government on this; there are no politics involved -- that the federal minister, the Hon.

John Crosbie, and Yves Fortier, who is his negotiator, have done a good job. So we're standing firm on this.

[2:45]

[ Page 7618 ]

Admittedly, not everything in agriculture is perfect; we know that. It's a vulnerable business. But when you look at ten bankruptcies in 20,000 farm businesses, that's pretty good. That's one out of every 2,000 businesses. Of those seven areas we are concerned with, one is the Peace River block and one is the orchards of the Okanagan. We are addressing those in a long-term strategy, and I think it will work out.

Orders of the Day

Hon. J. Smallwood: Hon. Speaker, I call Committee of Supply, and advise all members that Committee A will convene in the Douglas Fir Room to consider the estimates of the Ministry of Government Services and, by agreement, move to a different estimate later on today.

In Committee of Supply B, I call the estimates of the Ministry of Social Services.

The House in Committee of Supply B; M. Lord in the chair.

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF SOCIAL SERVICES

(continued)

On vote 54: minister's office, $392,165 (continued).

V. Anderson: One question I want to ask the minister right off is about the annual report for 1991-92, which I do not believe we've received. I have been looking forward to it and inquiring about it, because it certainly would have been helpful in preparing for the estimates. Could the minister tell us when that report might be available?

Hon. J. Smallwood: That annual report is in production. We can't give you a hard date at this time.

V. Anderson: I wanted to check one thing with the minister in relation to the discussion this morning. If I remember rightly, last year she indicated that the caseload of the Social Services ministry was somewhere around 280 per worker, and she was hoping to get it down to 245. Those may not be exact figures, but they are in the ballpark. I'm wondering what has happened this year and what the projections are. How many new workers does she expect to be putting on the front line, and what should the resulting caseload be?

Hon. J. Smallwood: The caseload currently is at 308. With this budget, the new staff allocation of 135 financial assistance workers will put the caseload at 262.

V. Anderson: So the indication is that instead of going down last year, the caseload went up from roughly 280, as I remember, to 308. So you would hope to bring it down just a little below what it started at a year ago. I think it's important to be aware of that.

I want to respond to the minister's comment that on the one hand we're asking her to do new programs, and so to spend money; on the other hand, we're asking questions so that money will not be spent. I think our purpose here is not really to do either one, but to confirm that money is to be spent effectively and efficiently and that priorities may need to be adjusted from time to time within the funds that are available.

When we were looking at ages of persons who receive social services, we talked about adults either at 18 or 19. Would the minister clarify when people are considered to be adult for the purposes of Social Services? What is the position of young people under that age of 18 or 19 who have either dropped out of school or completed high school and are not living at home?

Hon. J. Smallwood: As I indicated earlier, the legal age is 19. We deal with those cases of under-age children on an individual basis.

V. Anderson: I know a number of young people are out living in the community: part of the street community in the downtown and others throughout the province. Could the minister share with us what criteria are taken into account in dealing with them on an individual basis?

Hon. J. Smallwood: When I indicate that they're dealt with on an individual basis, I mean exactly that. The worker will work with the child to try to reunite them with their families, to understand whether that is an option for the child and to develop support services depending on the child's need.

V. Anderson: We also raised a number of questions about day care. We've had some discussion and probably will have more later on. For example, a person who is going to work on a regular basis probably has day care arranged for, or else they're not able to work. What about the person who needs day care on a part-time basis because of sickness or other possibilities that come up? What arrangements are made for people on social assistance who might need occasional day care and don't have family available for that?

Hon. J. Smallwood: As the member is well aware, we have two programs in our ministry -- the day care subsidy program and special needs day care. The majority of the day care programs are coordinated by the Ministry of Women's Equality. If the member would like to ask some specific questions about our day care programs, I'd be glad to answer.

V. Anderson: I presume services under the day care subsidy program are contracted out to different groups, or they're run by your groups. The money spent on those services is listed under grants and contributions, so I am assuming they are contracted services. If they're not contracted, how are the grants and contributions for those programs operated? Again, are they available on an occasional basis for single-parent or two-parent families who need them?

[ Page 7619 ]

Hon. J. Smallwood: The day care subsidy is a direct grant to parents who are needs-tested. A person has to be eligible for a subsidy, and that subsidy is provided for the number of children at the time care is needed.

V. Anderson: Perhaps for the record -- you referred me to the book last time -- you'd clarify the distinction between grants and contributions, so that, for those who are reading Hansard, that distinction will be clear. If I've got the right lines, we have $76 million in.... Let me just double-check that line. We have $76,000 in grants and $55 million in contributions. I'm wondering about the $76,000 in grants and the $55 million in contributions under day care subsidies.

Hon. J. Smallwood: The $76 million is day care subsidies. The $56 million is for health care and dental services.

V. Anderson: I couldn't quite hear you on the last one.

Hon. J. Smallwood: You're looking at the line down; you're mixing the two of them. The $76 million is day care subsidies, and the other is under health services.

V. Anderson: No, I'm looking at day care subsidies in column No. 80. Under grants, it's $76,000; and under contributions, No. 82, it's $55 million.

Hon. J. Smallwood: What we're talking about here is $76 million for day care, and under that is $76,000; and next to that is the $55 million. But the $76,000 and the $55 million are both health care services.

V. Anderson: The $76 million is for day care subsidies, and all of that is grants given to individuals so they can purchase day care. The minister is nodding. Is that for day care on a regular basis, week by week or month by month? Is there a possibility, because of circumstances, for short-term day care or relief?

Hon. J. Smallwood: The subsidy is calculated on a daily basis. For the member's information, the subsidy is paid to the caregiver on behalf of the client.

V. Anderson: Okay, that's a clarification. I didn't understand that the first time around. It's not paid directly to the client; it's paid to the caregiver on behalf of the client.

Has the need for day care services or the amount of money contributed for day care increased or decreased this year? Is there any significant difference from what has happened previously in that particular area? When a person is in one of the employment programs, is day care included as part of the employment subsidy? Is that kind of day care included here, or is that over and above this day care, as part of their employment or educational training?

Hon. J. Smallwood: Last year's voted expenditure was roughly $71 million, and it's $76 million this year. That is demand-driven. There has not been an increase in the subsidy rate.

[3:00]

There was another part to the question, but I didn't quite catch it.

V. Anderson: The other part of the question was: if single parents, for instance, are taking

part in an employment training program or an educational upgrading program, are their day care needs taken into account in this $76 million, or is that part of the expense of those two particular programs?

Hon. J. Smallwood: There are two ways that someone participating in one of our employment and training programs will access support for day care. One is the basic support under the day care subsidies. There is also a top-up provision to cover the cost. Our subsidies do not cover the full cost of day care, so there's a top-up for people taking employment and training through the ministry.

V. Anderson: Is there any limitation on the number of children in a family who can take advantage of that? Is it applicable to certain ages? Does it apply equally to after-school care and care during the day for children who might be in school, and is there after-school care for children whose parents are still at work?

Hon. J. Smallwood: We'll get the specific details for you, but there is after-school day care. It is age-specific, but it is not limited as to the number of children in a family. The out-of-school care is for children up to and including the age of 12.

V. Anderson: Is there a particular reason for the cutoff at 12? Basically it would be elementary school children. Is there an assumption that children over 12 are able to be home on their own without adult supervision?

Hon. J. Smallwood: Twelve is the age in the Criminal Code.

V. Anderson: I appreciate that, but I still would raise the question for consideration. This is the time when many youngsters are more likely to get into difficulty without the interactive support of family, particularly if they're in low-income families where they do not have the resources to be involved in athletics and other activities. I hope you might review this at some time within the ministry, because I'm sure that if you ask your community panel, they'll have some strong feelings that it's worthy of consideration. The minister indicates that there's the issue of money, and I recognize that.

Perhaps there are ways of doing it with some cooperative funds for community activities. Many community groups would be interested in helping and being part of that kind of activity if there was some guidance and direction for them.

[ Page 7620 ]

I would like to look at some other aspects. The ministry has added $388 million in the area of social services. Would she like to highlight the significance of that increase? First of all, there is a $22 million increase in program management for social assistance. What is the expansion of staff, programs, offices or whatever it might be in the area of program management and assistance that accounts for that $22 million?

Hon. J. Smallwood: First of all, there is $3 million for annualization of salary and benefit adjustments. The remaining $19.13 million breaks down as $11.13 million for salaries and benefits; $3.74 million, operating costs; $2 million, systems operating cost pressures; $310,000, training for new staff; $980,000, operating allowances for travel, office expenditure systems and voice telecommunications; and $210,000 for dental-optical services claims administration.

V. Anderson: Under program management, $1.25 million is listed under No. 30 for office and business. There's also $1.9 million for total asset acquisitions under that category, which I take it means items that are purchased or added to something. What are those asset acquisitions? A major part of it, of course, is office and business undertakings under No. 30.

Hon. J. Smallwood: I'm told that it is systems hardware and.... Are you looking at STOB 68?

V. Anderson: Vote 55, No. 30, under program management.

Hon. J. Smallwood: That's for office supplies.

V. Anderson: When you talk about systems hardware, I presume it's the communications hardware that you mentioned earlier to help with identification and control in the systems throughout the province. Does this mean that all of the offices are now interconnected by a computer system? Is there now a central network of computer databases that were not there previously, and has it been extended considerably in the last year?

Hon. J. Smallwood: The answer is yes.

V. Anderson: Looking at income assistance, the $1.779 billion for the current year is an increase of $350 million. Would the minister like to comment on that increase?

Hon. J. Smallwood: It is driven simply by our requirement to meet need. It is caseload pressure.

V. Anderson: Looking at how you've been driven this last year, I'm wondering what your projections are for the coming year. Have you projected a 10, 15 or 20 percent increase similar to the increase for this current year? I'm conscious of the fact that we had a grant of $40 million to make up for the overrun a year ago. Are we projecting that there will also be a grant, or have we applied a 20 percent increase over the current year?

Hon. J. Smallwood: I'm not prepared to speculate on what next year's budget will bring. To the best of our ability, and through our knowledgeable staff, we have projected what the caseload pressures will be for this year. As the member well knows, we are only into this year's budget by a couple of months, and it's a little early to tell.

V. Anderson: We are looking at the area which probably has the greatest increase of any item in the budget. Others in the discussion today have raised the concern about the professional ability to take advantage of the system. The minister has also responded that there are people who may inadvertently not be using the system properly because they are not aware of how the system operates or because they have received income that they did not realize they needed to report.

Is there some way besides the "fraud investigations" that the minister will be trying to help the community at large have confidence in the system and appreciate that the larger number of the people within the system are not abusing it?

Hon. J. Smallwood: Yesterday we talked a great deal about some of the work that we're doing in developing our communication tools within the ministry. Not only are we developing our ability to talk to one another and learn from the vast experience of a number of staff at all levels, but we are also developing strategies to ensure that we can communicate clearly with the people that we serve, allowing them to understand not only what services we are able to provide for them and what choices they can make, but what their responsibilities are as well. We will continue to work to enhance our ability to speak in plain language to those that we serve.

V. Anderson: If I understand correctly, within the system there are a number of categories for people who are seeking assistance. There are those who are on temporary assistance and those who have income assurances on a long-term basis. Perhaps the minister might explain the average length of time people are on temporary assistance, as against those persons who have income assurances on a long-term basis. Yesterday the minister indicated there were 193,825 clients. I understand that did not include dependents, and that if we included dependents we went well over 300,000.

Does that fluctuate with the temporary assistance coming and going? Is there a relative caseload of those who are on long-term assurance of support? What percentage would be on long-term support as against those who are on temporary support?

Hon. J. Smallwood: I'm not altogether sure where we should start with this. One of the things I'd like to point out for the member is that we produce a monitoring report on a quarterly basis. I'm sure the member has access to those reports. I'd like to refer him to the last quarterly report from March 1993. That will provide him with all of the numbers he would like.

[3:15]

[ Page 7621 ]

V. Anderson: Can anyone within the community get that information? Will that information be supplied to them simply by writing to the minister's office? For those people who are interested in keeping in touch with this information, where could they get a copy of that quarterly report?

Hon. J. Smallwood: For community members who are interested, the quarterly reports are in some libraries, but they are welcome to phone the ministry as well.

V. Anderson: The other day we briefly discussed handicapped benefits and the number of people who are on that kind of benefit. Perhaps the minister would explain to us the kinds of benefits that people receive for health coverage. Is medical coverage paid for? We also hear of a number of people in the community who have no medical coverage. Is the minister able to explain why some people who are not able to afford it would have no medical coverage?

Hon. J. Smallwood: In this last budget year, we as a government were very pleased to be able to announce the extension of medical services coverage not only for all people on income assistance -- that's the basic coverage -- but in addition to that, in cooperation with the Ministry of Health, for low-income people as well.

V. Anderson: Is the extension of health coverage to low-income people who may not be on social assistance done on an application basis? How would information about its availability get to these people?

Hon. J. Smallwood: As the member is well aware, this is the estimates for the Ministry of Social Services. If he'd like to ask questions specific to the Minister of Health, I would encourage him to do it during those estimates.

V. Anderson: To what extent are the dental program and optical services part of the program under the auspices of the Minister of Social Services? As well, what kinds of miscellaneous therapies are included?

Hon. J. Smallwood: I don't know that we have all the information about what miscellaneous services are covered. We would be more than happy to provide the member with an in-depth briefing around the medical support that we're able to give clients. I have the basic budget items if the member would like to ask in specific categories.

V. Anderson: Earlier there was some discussion, particularly with other members, about the employment opportunities program, community tourism projects and environmental programs. The minister indicated that in one program the ministry had a cost saving of up to $2 and in another program a cost saving of only 41 cents. Can she explain the difference in cost savings among various programs?

Hon. J. Smallwood: The employment opportunity program is a wage subsidy program, where the ministry tops up a wage that an employer pays. We require the employer to pay minimum wage, and then we top that up with an additional $3.50 per hour. That's giving a person on income assistance an opportunity for a job that provides a future for them. Depending on the type of program, we may pay the full amount of the wage. Our RISE programs actually create a job, and the wage differs between the types of jobs. Our forest enhancement workers program provides three stages: $7, $8 and $9, depending on the stage. I'm doing that off the top of my head, but I believe those are the numbers.

As you can see, depending on the wage paid, depending on whether it's a wage subsidy or a job creation program, there will be a difference in the actual cost saving to the program. Some are break-even programs, where people on income assistance are actually provided with that investment -- we'd rather have people working than on welfare -- and some of them are cost savings to the system.

V. Anderson: Where persons are involved in any of those employment programs, particularly in forest management or enhancement, where they have to leave their home community and go to some other place, do they get travel, moving and start-up expenses for housing, clothing and other things that they would need in order to undertake that new project?

Hon. J. Smallwood: If there is no other source for that individual to obtain moving expenses from, yes, we will support them in that initiative.

V. Anderson: You responded to the question about moving expenses. What about re-establishing themselves in new locations and setting up a new household with equipment or clothing they might need for that new job? For instance, somebody moving from the city out into forest enhancement is not likely to have the kind of clothes that are necessary.

Hon. J. Smallwood: We actually have a budgeted amount in our employment and training envelope that supports people into the workplace, whether it is providing them with support -- and we talked about day care or transportation -- or with work clothes as well as tools. Speaking specifically of the forest enhancement program, that program is targeted to regions and is only relevant in areas where there is a forest industry. There are such waiting lists for these programs -- people on welfare want to work -- that we're not having to go out of the region to place people.

V. Anderson: I notice that you also talked about regionally developed programs. Are there other specifically regionally developed programs of significance besides forest enhancement and tourism that would be of interest?

Hon. J. Smallwood: Our RISE programs support communities in identifying areas where work

[ Page 7622 ]

can be developed and created. Those programs are very flexible. They meet community needs. The people who administer those programs and work in our offices are very well connected to the communities; we often work with community partners in creating employment. I just want to make the point that those programs differ from region to region. The annual amount designated in this year's budget for our RISE programs is roughly $20 million. We estimate that the impact of that program, in and of itself, is that we are able to assist approximately 10,000 people on income assistance a year with that program.

V. Anderson: You indicated $20 million for the RISE program. The employment initiative program has a total of $58 million within it. You indicated that Build B.C. -- B.C. 21 -- money will be added to this program. Does that mean that this $58 million will be almost doubled as a result of the B.C. 21 additions to it? Is it all in this category?

Hon. J. Smallwood: We have approximately $58.7 million for employment and training programs in our ministry's budget. An additional $22 million in B.C. 21 has been allocated specifically to support income assistance recipients. However, as the member is well aware, the goals of B.C. 21 are to support disadvantaged groups across all programs, including people on income assistance. So there will be additional benefit in other programs.

The Chair: Hon. member, may I remind you to address your remarks through the Chair. Please continue.

V. Anderson: Thank you, hon. Chair.

We talked mainly about the work opportunity experience programs. As part of her ministry's program of upgrading, would the minister explain the educational and rehabilitative training opportunities at colleges, universities and technical schools? What are the opportunities for people in those particular areas?

Hon. J. Smallwood: As I'm sure the member is well aware, either we purchase seats at community colleges on behalf of our clients, or it's done through community-based training enterprises. The training is varied. It is designed to meet people where they are in their life experience. Support services for people involved in training range from drug and alcohol counselling to ESL and ABE, as well as on-the-job training that is specific to work experience. Again, if the member wants to be more specific, I'd be happy to elaborate.

V. Anderson: Is it the intention of the ministry that those who participate will end up with accreditation in this training -- a diploma, certificate or a degree -- something that will give them recognized standing within the community? In order for those people to be fully qualified in the area they and the ministry agreed on, is the ministry prepared to carry them through to the completion of that training or university course?

Hon. J. Smallwood: There are expanded opportunities, specifically for single parents to extend their education for a three-year period. That would provide an opportunity for some diploma programs. But the objective of the training and support that is given is re-entry into the workplace. So we are heading toward being able to design programs that support an individual with a target of obtaining a job and sustaining that employment.

V. Anderson: One would not be able to complete many diploma or certificate courses in that period of time. If somebody has gone into a college or university program, I assume that you would take them through the beginning years, and they would be left on their own to complete that program afterwards -- say in education or something of that ilk.

Hon. J. Smallwood: The member needs to understand that these programs are designed to assist people on income assistance. As far as basic education is concerned, they are not meant to supplant the education system of the Ministry of Advanced Education or the Ministry of Education.

[3:30]

We have targeted our programs to assist people on income assistance to the best of our ability with the resources that we have. Considering the demand, those resources are limited. For many people, we recognize that we are simply giving them assistance into the workplace. We are hopeful that it will be a successful re-entry and that they can continue to improve their lives from that point on.

V. Anderson: I'd like to move from the area of social assistance to community services, so that we might look at that for a few moments. We notice a $28 million increase in community support services. Just going down through the categories under that, we notice an almost $2 million increase for program management. Again, I'm assuming that this would be an increase in staff in order to undertake these particular programs.

Hon. J. Smallwood: I'll have to ask the member to help us out; I'm not sure where he's looking. We're not able to find the numbers he's talking about.

V. Anderson: The $28 million was arrived at by subtracting last year's figure from the $354 million for the current year for community support services. It came to a difference of $28 million. Then under program management, when you take last year's figures away from the $20 million, there is an almost $2 million dollar difference. There's $20.910 million for the current year, and that's up $1,854,000 from the year before.

Hon. J. Smallwood: The total is actually $1.85 million for program management, $800,000 for the annualization of salaries and benefits, $660,000 for caseload management for persons with mental

[ Page 7623 ]

handicaps and for special needs children and $390,000 for service delivery operating cost pressures.

V. Anderson: With regard to the $660,000 for persons with mental handicaps and special needs children, does that indicate that there is an increase in the demand for services for mental handicapped persons and special needs children? Is there an increase in the number of children needing that care, or does it indicate some other implications within that system?

Hon. J. Smallwood: The pressure there is because of more adults in residential care and more children who are in the transition to adulthood.

V. Anderson: When you say "more," could you give us some indication of the approximate numbers, so we would have an indication of that shift? Is it because persons with mental handicaps are facing a variety of opportunities, and they're leaving home and are no longer being cared for by their families? Or are they in circumstances that have now put them into care, and they weren't there before?

Hon. J. Smallwood: There are a number of reasons why we're seeing an increased pressure. More children are surviving because of medical technologies, and aging parents are no longer able to look after their adult children. In 1992-93, there was an estimate of 4,100 adults; in 1993-94 it is estimated that there will be a demand of 4,250.

V. Anderson: That's an important area. But while there's an increase in care for mentally handicapped and special needs children of $660,000, there is a larger increase in salary annualization and adjustments of $800,000. When you look at these figures, it seems that more is going to salary adjustments than to the actual care portion. If you add the service delivery and special operating cost pressures to the salary adjustments, there is almost $1.25 million -- almost twice as much as in actual care to the mentally handicapped and children in care.

Hon. J. Smallwood: The annualization for salaries and benefits is for all of the ministry staff in this area. The $660,000 in caseload management is for enhancements or additions to program money contracted for service in the community.

V. Anderson: When we look at the services for special needs children -- which was commented on in the latter part of this -- I gather that that is primarily in contributions, which is services provided and paid for by the ministry for people who are in care homes or facilities or special support systems within those care facilities or homes. Or does it include both their day-to-day living arrangements and educational or support services in the community?

Hon. J. Smallwood: First of all, let me provide you with the breakdown for the $3.18 million: $2.81 million is for the service wait-list for special needs programs. That includes special needs day care, at-home programs, infant development, family care for handicapped children and child care resources for handicapped children. There is an additional $1.4 million to make up a shortfall in at-home medical goods; there was not enough transferred from last year. There has been a decrease of $1.03 million to reflect an underexpenditure in the at-home respite program.

V. Anderson: Does this include care providers for children with special needs who would be in the day school programs and who need a caregiver with them within the day school programs? Is that part of the caregiving you are giving a worker with those children who are integrated into the day school program but who need a caregiver with them in that program?

Hon. J. Smallwood: That service is provided by the Ministry of Education.

V. Anderson: With respect to programs for the mentally handicapped, the other day we discussed how people with mental handicaps are dependent upon the kind of definition that is available to them for the various services they might be able to access within the program. Would the minister be kind enough to comment a little more about the structure of

definitions that are being looked at so that persons with mental handicaps can access the social services system.

Hon. J. Smallwood: The discussion that we had earlier was to do with the definition for handicapped designation for the income assistance program. That same definition is not used for service to people with mental handicaps. In particular, the definition for the at-home program is a criterion that Health has put in place.

V. Anderson: My hearing might not be as good, so I missed the last part of the minister's comment about that definition.

Hon. J. Smallwood: My apology. The definition for the at-home program is a definition that is put in place by the Ministry of Health.

V. Anderson: With respect to the program for mentally handicapped adults and the grants and the contributions of that program, are those grants and contributions given to community organizations who are serving mentally handicapped people or are they grants and contributions for their care and needs within their homes?

I wasn't sure by the minister's last comment if she was saying that the definition for these people is provided by the Health ministry and this service simply uses the definition from the Health ministry.

Hon. J. Smallwood: The answer is yes, to your last comment.

V. Anderson: The area of community projects funding has grants and contributions that come to some

[ Page 7624 ]

$14 million plus. Could the minister share what some of the key projects are that are funded through that community funding grant?

Hon. J. Smallwood: The community projects funding for 1993-94 is $8.56 million. There are some 240 projects, which I'd like to read into Hansard.... If the member has some specific questions on that, I would be happy to share that information as well.

R. Neufeld: Before we start reading over two hundred programs into Hansard, I'm going to take a different direction here and go through a few of the points in the report "Project to Monitor Administrative Error and Fraud" that was prepared by the ministry itself. I can appreciate that the minister has possibly answered other members about some of the questions that were raised in the report from ministry staff.

I want to find out exactly what action the government has taken on those issues and whether the minister feels that some of them, those that don't affect the budget too much, are more important than others to try to work on. Maybe we'll start with multiple claims, specifically the issue of mailing addresses, which was brought up in the report, and the identification of people receiving social assistance. What has the ministry done to mitigate those claims?

[3:45]

Hon. J. Smallwood: As I reported to the House on a number of different occasions, we have a protocol with the postal service to ensure that cheques are returned to income assistance offices when there is a change of address; they are not forwarded. We have also enhanced our computer capability to alert offices through postal codes where there are duplicate addresses. I identified earlier for the member that the computer software will not allow a financial assistance worker to enter a duplicate claim.

R. Neufeld: I assume that the computer systems are being put in place now. I saw in the budget that there were some expenditures for computerization. Obviously not all FAWs had computers that could handle what the minister is talking about. Is that in place now? Is it going to be in all areas of B.C.?

Hon. J. Smallwood: Actually, one of the difficulties I expressed about the report is that it did not acknowledge the enhancements that were already in place. Those enhancements are in place and functioning well.

R. Neufeld: Is the minister saying, then, that since this report was acknowledged in May, areas that did not have computers are now computer-equipped?

Hon. J. Smallwood: For the record, one of my difficulties with the report is that it did not acknowledge the fact that those enhancements were in place prior to the report reporting out.

R. Neufeld: Obviously the workers in your ministry, the people who came forward with some of this information, had some issues with it. I'm sure they didn't dream these up just to make a report for the minister. I'm sure there were issues that had to be alleviated. I'm glad to see that the minister has taken care of it so quickly.

Maybe the next issue we could deal with is lost and stolen cash, which she replied to the member for Surrey-White Rock about. As I understand it, lost cheques are replaced within 24 hours. Is that still the procedure?

Hon. J. Smallwood: Rather than going back to the member's earlier comments and reflecting on the report, I'll specifically answer this question and hope that the member can get this one right. There is a 48-hour turnaround to replace lost cheques, and there is an immediate stop-payment upon notification of those cheques being lost.

R. Neufeld: I can get it right; I can read it out of the report. I don't know if you're disputing what the report says or the question I am asking you. I can only go by the report that was done by your own ministry.

The Chair: Could you address your remarks through the Chair, please, hon. member?

R. Neufeld: Yes. Through the Chair to the minister: has it always been the case that it's 48 hours, instead of 24 as stated in the report?

Hon. J. Smallwood: Yes.

R. Neufeld: The other issue was unreported earnings that people that work for Social Services had a problem with and how that impacted on the ministry. Could the minister explain what has been done to mitigate the unreported earnings?

Hon. J. Smallwood: We have increased the number of tape matches between systems, and we are currently in negotiations to add further tape matches to the work that we already have underway.

R. Neufeld: Excuse me, I was not listening to the answer. Could you give that to me again, please?

Hon. J. Smallwood: For the member's information, we have enhanced the tape matches with other systems and are currently negotiating additional enhancements. We have increased the number of financial assistance workers on our front line to improve our intake.

R. Neufeld: Another issue that has been brought forward on a number of occasions is the security deposits given out by the Ministry of Social Services: what happens to those security deposits; and how the ministry staff decide whether they should try to redeem the security deposits from the persons later on or

[ Page 7625 ]

whether they just continue to pay them out. Maybe the minister could explain that a little bit, please.

Hon. J. Smallwood: We have our policy around security deposits under review. We've been working with the minister responsible for the Residential Tenancy Act, examining all of those options. We're working with community groups to explore ways to improve not only our service to our clients but accountability as well.

R. Neufeld: Another issue is native bands. I've had some expressions made to me that are not specifically the same as what are in the report. Band members will acquire assistance on the reserve, which is, of course, the federal government's responsibility, and if they go into town, they will get assistance within the community they happen to go to. Is there any way this can be cross-referenced, or is it now? How do we deal with those problems? They are prevalent. I know they're reported on in the report, but I've also heard about them, specifically in my constituency.

Hon. J. Smallwood: We currently have agreements with some bands that administer income assistance to do that kind of cross-checking and shared information. As the work continues around the federal-provincial cost-sharing and self-government negotiations, that will provide additional opportunities for us.

R. Neufeld: You say that you have working agreements with some of the bands. Can you give me an idea of how many bands? What's the expectation with regard to having agreements with all bands? I would think that this would be a pretty common agreement to make with the bands. It's not that a band in, say, Fort Nelson is different from one on the Island when it comes to this type of thing. Is there any way that can be speeded up so that those extra dollars can be taken into account?

Hon. J. Smallwood: For your information, Mr. Member, we're exploring all options, and we have made significant progress on the programs we inherited from your government. It's regrettable that your government did not do that work before.

The Chair: Could I remind all committee members to address their remarks through the Chair.

R. Neufeld: It's interesting that the minister is starting up again about what she inherited. Obviously all the minister can do is complain about what her ministry inherited and about what the federal government is doing to the ministry. I think it's time that this minister started to understand and to deal with her ministry.

There's no reason why you can't make those agreements with all the bands in British Columbia so that you can save that money. British Columbians are concerned about the $900 million increase -- 45 percent -- in funding for your ministry over two years. You said yesterday that people are still about 50 percent below the poverty line. I guess people in British Columbia are a little upset. It's no wonder they worry a bit, because they see what the NDP government is doing to job creation in the province, other than creating jobs directly through the ministry, funded by government dollars.

The minister continually talks about Alberta, so we asked for some information from Alberta. Alberta's caseload has decreased, and so has their budget in the last year, by 9 percent. Their budget didn't increase by 20 or 30 percent like your budget did. They're dealing with the same issues you are, Madam Minister.

Some Hon. Members: Except population growth.

R. Neufeld: Except population growth, some say. Well, you can do all kinds of things with numbers. Obviously what this minister can do with numbers is spend a lot of money.

The other issue that was raised in the report was unemployment insurance and the cross-checking of that. I believe that there was something in place in the lower mainland for cross-referencing. Is that going to be done throughout the whole province?

Hon. J. Smallwood: Yes, we have tape matches with the UI system. We have negotiated significant enhancements; and yes, they are provincewide.

R. Neufeld: Did you say that they are province-wide now?

Hon. J. Smallwood: This gives me another opportunity to identify that we have significantly enhanced the protocols between Unemployment Insurance and ourselves. Those significant enhancements are part of the work that we have done in this government to ensure the security of the system. Yes, those protocols, that cross-checking, is provincewide.

[4:00]

R. Neufeld: That was another program that was started before the NDP became government.

The other issue I have is ID requirement. What programs does the minister feel she can look at for people to identify themselves when they come to claim social assistance? She reported earlier that 40 percent of single employable people come directly to the office to claim their cheques. What system takes place to ensure that a person is not claiming more than once?

Hon. J. Smallwood: I'm not altogether sure what the question was there. There seemed to be a number of staggered questions that didn't relate. If the member wouldn't mind....

R. Neufeld: What are the ministry's identification requirements for people to get social assistance? Maybe that's where we should start, because apparently some of this report is incorrect.

[ Page 7626 ]

Hon. J. Smallwood: The ministry policy has upgraded the ID requirements. We now require three pieces of ID. One will be photo ID and one will be social insurance. You can choose from a list of ID requirements: B.C. identification, which is produced by the motor vehicle branch, Ministry of Attorney General, and is a photo ID; driver's licence, which is a photo ID; passport, which is a photo ID; native Indian status card, which is a photo ID; or an original citizenship paper or immigration document with photo. As you can see, the possible IDs that can be used in making up those three pieces are primarily photo IDs.

L. Fox: I just have a few questions I'd like to ask the minister. The first one is that during her tenure, this minister has developed a policy that single parents do not have to seek employment until their youngest child is 19. I want to know what the impact of that policy decision is on the budget in terms of dollars.

Hon. J. Smallwood: We have plotted the growth in single-parent caseloads for the last number of years. The rise in single-parent caseloads commenced a full year prior to this government. Keeping in mind that our caseloads are a reflection of the economy and pressures on families, single-parent families are significantly more vulnerable than dual-parent families. We have also estimated on that graph where the policy change took place, and we've seen no significant change in that rise overall. We have looked at it and evaluated the impact of not changing that policy.

For the information of the member, the principle of a single-parent family means that those children rely on a single parent. If that single parent is not there for them, then those children have no one to care for them. In acknowledging that vulnerability, you recognize that there are significant barriers for that single parent in caring for her children and getting back into the workplace. If there is more than one child in the family, there may be a variety of different day care needs, depending on whether the child is an infant or is in school or preschool. It also depends on whether the child is healthy.

If a child is not well, the day care won't look after them, and the single parent then has to leave the workplace to care for the child.

A single person on welfare gets approximately $150 a month to care for that child. If that person can no longer care for the child and the ministry supports the child in the home of a relative, it costs approximately $400 -- I'm giving you ballpark numbers. It costs the ministry approximately $600 a month to care for a child in a foster home. Should that child, in the process of family breakdown, be abused or neglected in any way, the price tag goes up. We have children in care who cost as much as $1,000 to $5,000, depending on how damaged the child is.

It is a strategy that recognizes the reality of a single parent and the need to care for those children. It is a policy that recognizes the reality that those children face in living in poverty.

Interjection.

Hon. J. Smallwood: I'm aware that the member is just coming into the House for the first time.

Many of our programs have been discussed, and we have explained very clearly that we have targeted our employment and training programs to support a single parent in re-entering the workplace and in caring for her children.

L. Fox: It's probably so easy to notice who comes in and out of the House because there aren't any government members here to support the minister.

The Chair: The member knows that it's inappropriate to comment on the presence or absence of members in the chamber. Please continue.

L. Fox: I wish the Chair had made the same statement to the minister when she made a similar observation a few moments ago.

My question about the costs of that new policy was very specific. The minister talked about a host of problems with respect to a single parent. I want to inform the minister that I'm well aware of those problems. I deal with people every day who have similar problems, and there is no question that each one deserves some consideration. But I'm concerned about a broad policy statement that encourages a single parent not to seek employment until their youngest child is 19.

It is a broad statement that encourages people not to seek employment opportunities because the minister's policy suggests that they shouldn't have to do so until the youngest child reaches the age of 19. We have seen changes in legislation so that young people can now vote at age 18, and they can seek medical services at age 12 without consulting their parents. Those kinds of considerations seem to be totally in conflict with this particular policy. But I want to get back to my specific question: what has that policy cost the taxpayers of British Columbia?

Hon. J. Smallwood: I extend an apology for my impatience. We've just dealt with this issue with a significant number of other questioners, both from the third party and the official opposition. So I extend my apology for my impatience with your question.

Let me provide, once again, the same information for this member. If I miss anything, the member might peruse yesterday's Hansard to pick up any odds and sods that I've not covered.

As I said, you need to know that we have extended training opportunities targeted specifically at single parents. We've extended additional employment opportunities for parents, and we expect the people who work in our ministry to work very closely together in developing opportunities for single parents. It's widely recognized in our ministry that the longer a person is on income assistance, the more difficult it is for a person to get off. So it is an underlying goal of our ministry to ensure a rapid turnaround and to provide realistic support, realizing that single parents have special and specific needs.

The member needs to know that 73 percent of employment and training offered by the ministry is

[ Page 7627 ]

taken by women, and single parents represent almost 60 percent of income assistance recipients who take advantage of improved earnings exemptions. That means the vast majority of single parents on income assistance are working to support their children as well. It's a reflection of the fact that women's wages are significantly lower than men's, and while men's wages are felt to be reflective of a bygone era when men were expected to support entire families, women's wages have yet to catch up. Therefore single parents and families headed by women are that much more vulnerable.

It costs the same amount for a single parent to buy a loaf of bread as it does for a single male. Unfortunately, she's only got a 60-cent dollar with which to buy it.

In addition to that, nearly 50 percent of the participants in the ministry's employment opportunity program are women and 30 percent are single parents. As you can see by the case breakdown and specifics, this is a very motivated group. It supports my belief that single parents, in supporting their children, know best how to meet their needs and take advantage of programs.

The change in policy is a reflection of that philosophy. Rather than thinking government knows best and imposing restrictions that perhaps are unrealistic in the lives of those women and children, we will provide support and services to them instead. It's a recognition that they are motivated and, to the best of their ability, are supporting their children in meeting those children's needs. Those are the statistics that bear out the reality, Mr. Member.

L. Fox: I seem to be getting a very long dissertation, rather than a specific answer to my question. I was not suggesting in any of my discussion that education of single parents is not important; in fact, the contrary is indeed the case. If we're going to address the fact that we have third -- and going into fourth -- generations of families on welfare, obviously education has to be a key tool to stop that trend.

But my specific question, and I'll ask it again for the third time, is simply: what did the policy cost the taxpayers of British Columbia, when the minister changed to a policy that suggests that single parents do not have to seek employment until their youngest child is 19? What was the direct cost to the taxpayers of that policy?

Hon. J. Smallwood: First, I want to say that age 19 is the legal definition of a child. That is the only reason that was in the policy to begin with. There is no encouragement for anyone to stay on income assistance. By the number of programs that we provide and the counselling and support we give people in their attempt to leave income assistance, I have indicated that rather than encouraging people, we are discouraging them, and supporting them in their goals to re-enter the workplace.

[4:15]

My reference to the graph that tracked the caseload was the fact that there was not a significant change when we changed the policy. Over and above that, we are -- as I am sure the member knows -- legally mandated to meet needs. When someone comes onto income assistance they have met an eligibility test. We don't ask them what their motivation was for coming onto income assistance; they simply meet the legal eligibility requirement for income assistance. That eligibility or needs test is not only a legal requirement for this province; it is required to access some $800 million worth of federal cost-shared money.

We are legally mandated by our provincial legislation and the Canada Assistance Plan, so we are unable to cost it; it is simply a matter of meeting the legal requirements of the system. I can assure you that while we have tracked the caseload, we have not seen a significant change in direction since the policy changed.

L. Fox: I want to get to one other item. Approximately a month ago this minister, along with the Minister of Forests, announced a program under B.C. 21 which was going to employ people on social assistance. I have found out from people in the Prince George community, who had heard the announcement and went down to apply for one of these jobs, that the jobs were already fully taken. My question to this minister is: out of the 3,000 jobs that were made available in the province, how many were filled by individuals on social assistance?

Hon. J. Smallwood: There were a number of different categories within that program. As you know, it was partnered by the Ministry of Social Services and the Ministry of Forests. Our

part in that program was exclusively to serve people on income assistance. Because of the great demand for that program from region to region, there were waiting lists. It was not a challenge for us to fill the program, to say the least. There is a great demand from income assistance recipients to work and to take advantage of training programs. As a government, we are pleased when we are able to provide those opportunities for those people.

L. Fox: I guess this is a case where I ask the question and the minister gives the answer she wants to give. My specific question was: how many income assistance recipients were employed in those 3,000 jobs that were offered through that program?

Hon. J. Smallwood: We can get the full breakdown for the member. As I said, it is a partnered program. Of the jobs that were announced for that program, 850 were targeted specifically to income assistance recipients.

L. Fox: Provincially there were 3,000 jobs made available under that program and only 850 of them were offered to income assistance recipients. Given that this program is now a month old, can the minister tell me what kind of turnover rate there has been? I am well aware that silviculture and reforestation has a very short time frame. Can the minister tell us what kind of turnover there has been with respect to those 850 individuals who received those jobs?

[ Page 7628 ]

Hon. J. Smallwood: This is a new program. As the member well knows, the programs are just starting up around the province. They are seasonal programs, as the member states, and we have studied them in the past. We know that the programs that have training opportunities attached have a 60 percent success rate over a five-year period. Those people who have taken the opportunity of training enhancement are still attached to the workplace. I think that's a pretty good record.

L. Fox: I have one further question on that. Can the minister tell me what the length of employment is on that program? I understand from the announcement -- and certainly from the Minister of Forests' statements in the press -- that this is a one-time-only program. Can the minister tell me what the length of employment will be on this program?

Hon. J. Smallwood: There are three steps to the program. Each step is six months. They are graduated steps from bridging right through to contract training. We are hopeful that the training that people obtain at the third level will provide a good foundation for them to continue to be attached and opportunities in their communities for further job enhancement.

J. Tyabji: The issue that I'd like to talk about is poverty, food banks and some of the initiatives that have come forward. I know that the member for Vancouver-Langara has canvassed this at some length, but there are some specific issues. I wanted to start off by saying that sometimes, in the line of questioning with regard to single parents, we forget that the value of parenting to society in large part outweighs what we end up paying through the Ministry of Social Services. I think we should not overlook the value of the people who stay home and work to take care of the children. That often gets overlooked.

Somebody has to be paid to take care of them; the best person to pay is the parent. I wanted to start off by saying that.

With regard to food banks, I received a letter which I want to share with the minister about a proposal in the United States for food vouchers. I'll just read it into the record.

"In July 1991 the citizens of Berkeley, California, with enthusiastic help from town merchants, social service providers and the University of California, implemented the Berkeley Cares voucher program. Instead of shunning street beggars or grudgingly handing them cash, Berkeley residents can offer panhandlers vouchers purchased from local merchants. The 25-cent vouchers can buy food, laundry services or bus fares. They can't be exchanged for alcohol or cigarettes, let alone illegal drugs.

"During the first four months, some 26,000 vouchers, about $6,500 worth, had already been sold at Berkeley city hall and by local merchants. The forgery-proof vouchers are distributed by the university's Associated Students organization, the administrative group for the program."

That comes out of the New York Times, in an

article by Ira Eisenberg. That seems to me to be a fairly innovative program. Is there anything like that being considered by Social Services?

Hon. J. Smallwood: I don't think there's any magic to alleviating poverty. The strategy our government has in place is one of supporting economic and social partnership, providing support for people toward independence and self-sufficiency. A decent job with a livable wage is possibly the best safeguard against poverty. For those people who are unable to take advantage of the workplace and face significant barriers to full employment, I would hope that as Canadians we would support a social safety net that met people's needs, rather than spending our time in developing innovations aimed at eliminating beggars on street corners.

J. Tyabji: I agree with the minister that there is no magic solution to poverty, and that we are seeing a dramatic rise in the number of people living below the poverty line, particularly families with young children. I do understand that. As is always the case with poverty, when people feel the emotional impact there are associated problems that can lead to substance abuse. I know that there are other programs in the ministry for substance abuse. But quite often people in the community want to participate. For example, we have the food banks right now as one option.

I think this is one option that might be considered so that people can contribute in some way, whether through donations of food to a food bank or through the direct transfer of a voucher. I don't see anything offensive in that suggestion. I think that is a constructive suggestion.

[E. Barnes in the chair.]

With regard to the social safety net, I want to talk a little about the value of the community in providing some of the "less tangible" contributions to the elimination of poverty, like the feeling of self-esteem that is necessary in combatting poverty. In some communities we've seen innovations like the living library concept. In the central Okanagan region the living library concept has become fairly popular in finding senior citizens who have stories to tell, whether it be from their days as a miner or pioneer or as somebody who contributed to the community.

Many senior citizens are fairly isolated, although obviously not all of them. Some senior citizens may have lived a very rich life but, for whatever reason, they are living at some distance from their extended family. The living library concept has helped alleviate their loneliness and plugged them into the community, and it also allows children to have some way of interacting with senior citizens. So these people have been integrated into some of the community activities.

There are other ministries where there is overlapping jurisdiction, but I mention it here because I know that this ministry is trying to get at poverty, isolation and the accompanying emotional problems that some people have -- and I know many senior citizens are affected by this. Is the minister having discussions about some of these local community-based concepts -- there are many others,

[ Page 7629 ]

and a few that I'd like to canvass -- with regard to bringing out some of these people who are isolated, like seniors or single mothers who would like to be involved in a community environment? Is the minister having discussions with some communities that are doing these kinds of things?

Hon. J. Smallwood: We support a variety of programs. Starting with seniors, we have a very successful seniors counsellors program. It's a volunteer program where we provide support for seniors counsellors that enable them to meet and interact with their peers to provide support in filling out documentation and meeting seniors' needs.

Through employment and training, we have a volunteers initiative program where we recognize that there are people who are unable to take advantage of employment and training programs because they first of all need to be more connected to a supportive environment and to build some confidence before they can be plugged into an employment or training program.

There are a number of self-help groups ranging from the adoptive parents self-help groups that we fund, right the way through to a number of community agencies where we support people getting together in addressing their own individual problems in a supportive community fashion.

The only exception that I would take is that there is a vast difference between dealing with issues of isolation and community-building, and addressing issues of poverty. The fundamental principle of poverty is lack of money, lack of ability to support your basic needs. I would see a different strategy in being able to address those issues.

J. Tyabji: I would like to start with the last comment first, and move back.

With regard to the issue of poverty, from my own experience in dealing with people who have had a very difficult time with poverty, I know that accompanying the economic hardship is a sense of loss of self-esteem and pride, and a feeling that one cannot be plugged into the community because one is not meeting the standards of that community. In working with my own community and with people who have had problems with this, I have seen that they do need encouragement to be integrated into the community. Even if the economic problem has been solved, there is an accompanying problem.

That is why I am asking if there would be some community-based initiative to make sure that there is some sort of integration where people feel welcome to participate with the community, once the economic part has been met.

[4:30]

The minister mentioned a couple of other things: that there are some programs for senior citizens to meet and interact with their peers, and that in doing so, they can share ideas and assist one another. Are there any programs similar to that where seniors can interact with other generations, specifically with children? Is there a bridging that the ministry is exploring, or is working on, right now?

Hon. J. Smallwood: Our ministry is very decentralized. The programs are developed with community participation. The programs vary from community to community, depending on the demographics of the community's needs. So there is quite a variety of programs in place around the province. Many of the community programs that our ministry supports have, as a basis or a philosophy, the support of people in addressing their issues and in the building of self-esteem. As I said earlier about a number of our employment programs, we have, as a principle, built those programs on a desire to ensure success.

To do that, we meet people where they are and support them in that transition or bridging toward successful attachment to the workplace. An example of the philosophy that is brought to bear is the investments in place in our ministry for people on income assistance.

J. Tyabji: Since there are many community initiatives, I also know that the ministry is responsible for the umbrella philosophy that will be overseeing which communities are going to be proceeding and receiving funding. I would assume that the minister herself is providing some of the philosophical basis for the programs that are going on, even if a lot of them are coming from the community into the ministry.

With that in mind, would the minister support some exploring of possible relationships where we see senior citizens interacting with children? I'm thinking more specifically. In my riding, for example, there are many single mothers who have a difficult time, as the minister said, getting into the workplace, and interacting. They also quite often, I think, would welcome the opportunity to have the children in a community environment where there are people who like to tell stories. I don't mean to take the debate to something that might be considered trite; I think this is a fairly important issue.

In my riding we have about 30 percent senior citizens, and we also have a lot of single mothers. Senior citizens, at least in my experience, enjoy telling stories and young children enjoy hearing stories. Yet there's no bridge to bring the two together. That's been a bit of a frustration for me, because if there were a community network for that, I'm sure a lot of single mothers and senior citizens would welcome the opportunity, and the children would like it. That's the kind of thing that I'm looking at, in terms of a philosophy that might bring people together who don't....

There is no mechanism right now that I can see. That's why I'm wondering if there's any discussion going on or any project like that, or if the minister herself is supporting that.

Hon. J. Smallwood: The member needs to know that not only do we support community initiative and volunteerism, but we value the contributions that everyone in the community makes towards a healthy community, whether it's with regard to the care of children or the support of families. The initiatives that this ministry funds could very well be a vehicle, and I encourage the member to contact -- if there is -- a Family Place in your community and encourage them to explore opportunities for encouraging senior citizens to be involved with the children that access Family Place.

[ Page 7630 ]

J. Tyabji: Could the minister please share with the House some specific projects with regard to literacy and give us a general overview of the direction of the literacy programs in her ministry?

Hon. J. Smallwood: As I shared with her colleague, the development of employment and training programs in the ministry meets the needs of people where they are. If there is a literacy problem, we have officers who work specifically with income assistance clients and assist them in meeting their needs to allow for their successful re-entry into the workplace. I thought he was sharing the notes, because he asked the same question.

Interjection.

Hon. J. Smallwood: Right. He should also share the answers with you.

RISE is one of our employment projects. A full 65 percent of the RISE projects are targeted to literacy and life skills. It is a very well-received program that is designed for its flexibility, and that enables our regional offices to deal specifically with the demographics in their community and meet those community needs. Through our RISE projects and other opportunities that we have -- in purchase of service through community colleges, as an example, where we buy seats or spaces for income assistance recipients filling their adult basic education or ESL needs....

Interjections.

The Chair: Order, hon. members. The Chair is having some difficulty hearing the debate. Would the hon. member for Okanagan East proceed?

J. Tyabji: What percentage of the minister's clients would fall into the category of functionally illiterate?

Hon. J. Smallwood: We don't have a case-by-case breakdown. As the member is well aware, I'm sure, the turnover on income assistance is significant. The average stay is approximately six months for an individual on income assistance, so it makes it very difficult. The caseload is changing all the time. It rather dispels the myth that people stay on income assistance for a long period when you understand that the average stay is simply five to six months.

In addition to that, we have a project with the Social Planning and Research Council, SPARC. We have asked them to put a face on income assistance recipients so that we can better understand and target our programs to support the people that we serve. In addition to that, I have met with provincial ministers across Canada and the federal government with an appeal to engage in a significant research project whereby we can better understand the changing face of poverty in Canada generally.

From some of the anecdotal information, some of the case studies that I have seen and the preliminary work with SPARC.... It's particularly interesting to understand, when we're talking about the single employable caseload -- and this is not statistical information but simply a perusal of the cases -- that a disproportionate number of single males have grade 7 to grade 9, and a disproportionate number of single female employables have degrees. It's a startling fact, and I think it speaks to some of the significant barriers that are a reality for women.

We know that a woman coming out of university with a degree cannot count on making the same money as a single male with a grade 12 diploma. That, again, is a reality that is reflected in our caseloads.

J. Tyabji: If the minister would indulge me, I don't know to what extent putting a face on the clients was canvassed by the member for Vancouver-Langara. If it was canvassed at length, then I'll look to Hansard. I'd like to ask what kind of profile is emerging in this attempt to develop statistics on the clients? I don't know if the minister heard me say that if it's been canvassed at length, I'll read Hansard. If not, that sounds like an interesting line of questioning to pursue.

Hon. J. Smallwood: At this point we don't have a database that can clearly identify the needs of clients. That's for a number of reasons, such as the turnover in the client base all the time -- that there is that rotation. But we have a number of indicators in the system that lead us to understand those whom we are serving. One of the indicators is the number of people that we sponsor each year for classroom training, many for literacy or ABE. There are approximately 15,000 in a year whom we will sponsor for that classroom training, targeted specifically to those needs.

J. Tyabji: The minister mentioned that she's trying to get some statistics -- "putting a face on the clients," as she said. Could the minister expand on that? Is there going to be some kind of program, for example?

Interjection.

J. Tyabji: We see the member from Jurassic Park over there saying "photo ID."

What does "putting a face on the clients" refer to? When the clients come and make the application, will there be some kind of tracking and statistical questionnaire that gives us a snapshot profile? For example, I'm assuming the level of education is being.... You said caseloads. But if there's going to be some kind of computer data -- even if it's anonymous but gender is indicated -- is that what the minister is talking about?

Hon. J. Smallwood: I'd like to tell the member that I did appreciate her comments, and I wonder where she's been for the last couple of hours.

The information that we have on our clients is....

An Hon. Member: That's out of order, Mr. Chairman.

Hon. J. Smallwood: Through you, Mr. Chair, I think it's entirely parliamentary to compliment a member on her comments. The fact that I appreciate her involvement in the debate is something worth noting.

[ Page 7631 ]

The information that is recorded on each individual client's file will be very valuable to us in the research that the Social Planning and Research Council has underway. We do not have the technical ability to store all of that information or access it on our main computers at this time. We simply keep client information on the computers that is valuable to the statistical information. It does not reflect detailed information, like their education level or accessing of programs. That's kept on individual files. SPARC is accessing those files and trying to give us an increased snapshot. At any one time it can only be a snapshot, because as I said, the caseloads change.

J. Tyabji: We know that we have regionally based information. When we were canvassing the Ministry of Environment estimates, we found out that a computer system was going to be put in place. There could also be one put in place here so that there could be case-by-case statistical analysis, including the turnover. For example, the computer program could be dated, and the time from when the file was activated to when it was rendered inactive would become a statistic that goes into the regional office. That might be something that the ministry might want to explore -- or is already doing; I don't know.

It would be quite useful to have a modem system where the central computer could monitor what is going on statistically and when the files become active and inactive.

For example, in the Kootenays we could see if there were files that were resident longer than some of the files in the lower mainland. If that information is not being gathered now, then it will be some time before we can even get to the stage of gathering it. If a program were set up with a simple sheet filled out for data entry, it wouldn't have to be tied to a person's identity. The reason I'm stressing that is that I don't think we would want to have a computer system that identified a person by these statistics, because that would be too intrusive into that person's life.

But if somebody filled it out anonymously and fed it in -- and I'm sure the ministry staff understand what I'm talking about -- then we could have regional statistics. That would be very useful.

[4:45]

I want to canvass the issue of homelessness. The reason that I want to talk about this briefly is that in the Okanagan we have a chronic problem: we are both blessed and cursed by our weather. I say blessed because it is obviously very good for tourism, but the negative

part is that in the summertime -- actually, for an extended period of time -- people who are in difficulty feel that they can come to the Okanagan and that it's some kind of Shangri-la where they'll find somewhere to live, and they often don't. The weather keeps them around, and we find that it becomes a very big problem. With the growth that we've had and with affordable housing going down -- our member for Vancouver-Quilchena will probably talk about that a little -- we've had a real problem, as I'm sure the minister is aware. The problem of homelessness is growing.

Are there ongoing interministerial discussions about the issue of homelessness on a regional basis? What is being done to alleviate some of these problems?

Hon. J. Smallwood: I'd like to go back to the member's earlier comments to let her know that we are looking at our computer system to centralize assessment and referral information. That option is being explored. One of the things that the member might appreciate is that while this ministry is in the business of serving people to the best of our ability and meeting the needs of communities and individuals with the resources that we have, the reality is that our system has been considerably underfunded for a long period of time.

If you go around to the income assistance offices, our clerical support staff will tell you that in many offices we have typewriters instead of word processors. That's a cost to the system, and when it comes down to whether or not we're going to meet individual needs or invest in the system, historically the ministry has chosen to invest in individual needs rather than the system itself.

When we look at the advancement in technology -- and the member was talking about the availability of fairly sophisticated computer technology -- I'm sure we're all aware of the fact that as a society we have invested greatly, not only here in Canada but in North America, in technologies of destruction. I saw in the news just a while back -- and I appreciate the tolerance of the Chair -- where there was a decision to downsize an investment in a space station: $29 billion for a single facility.

The member should be aware that when we're talking about residential placements for children, many of our social workers track the availability of beds by pins on a board rather than having the support of the sophisticated technology, which many other corporations have access to. That's a challenge, I would think, to taxpayers, and a test of how much we do value children in our society. It's often nice for people to make grand pronouncements about children, but they do not follow through by actually supporting those children in ensuring that they have the best service and that the people who work for them have the best available technologies to support the work that they do.

You went on then to talk about affordable housing. We work very closely with the Ministry of Municipal Affairs, Recreation and Housing. They are developing a housing policy and have a number of very innovative programs that they will be launching, and we're quite encouraged by that. However, there is as well a challenge to communities to embrace the problem. The problem is not simply one that government owns. It will take a great partnership from different levels of government and active community groups in addressing those problems.

If it is a significant problem in your community, I should let you know that our ministry does support hostels and emergency housing. Where communities are welcoming communities to all citizens, addressing even those that are most marginalized, our ministry will actively support their initiatives.

[ Page 7632 ]

J. Tyabji: Hon. Chair, I can't resist going back to the technology discussion that we were having. Once we start talking about tracking cases with pins on a map, I'm a little nervous, because we're in 1993 and I'm not talking about major capital investment. I understand what the minister is saying: that, yes, we have to make sure that the investment goes into the people rather than into the machinery.

I would advise the minister that the regional district, the city hall, the Ministry of Forests and the Ministry of Environment, Lands and Parks, all of these have adequate computer systems. For example, with the Ministry of Environment, when we canvassed the contaminated sites legislation in the site registry, we had a commitment there for a completely locally based information access system. For Social Services to adopt that, all it would take is one computer in each regional office to modem into that computer system and you're set. It wouldn't be a major investment.

I'm not thinking of each social worker being on a computer terminal. What I'm saying is that if each office had an ability to input some data, that would be very helpful in making the ministry more efficient. The ministry doesn't have to invest in an entire infrastructure. The infrastructure is there -- in fact, we have too much of it. You can probably borrow a few computers from one of your colleagues, because they're getting rid of a huge computer system in both Forests and Environment, Lands and Parks. So there is a lot of government surplus.

I'm not saying that the money shouldn't be spent on the people; it should. But to serve the people in terms of anticipating their needs and getting some kind of hard data as to what the needs are, I think it would be very useful to be able to set that up.

Hon. J. Smallwood: I want to apologize; I was being indulgent. I was not talking about.... We have a very sophisticated central computer system that tracks eligibility for clients and gives us very good statistical information. When we talked about some of the issues that you are talking about, my response was that we are exploring the technology to track assessment and referral; we are examining that. My reference to the computer was an enhancement for social workers that would allow us to better manage residential beds and placements.

In some communities in this province social workers track those open beds by pinning the actual placements on a board. Those are beds for children -- a little different than what you were talking about -- but it gave me an opportunity to feel a little better about my....

J. Tyabji: That's good, because I had visions of social workers in a sort of stock exchange, running around sticking pins on big maps.

Something the leader of the party has been talking about for some time, and which has been kicked around as an idea, is a community information service. There would be a volunteer information base on who volunteers and what they are doing. This seems to be more and more important.

Last year in the Social Services estimates I spent some time talking to the minister about the Community Needs Alliance that we not only formed but which we tried to use as a vehicle for advancing the integration of all the different volunteer and community service groups, such as the three different food banks and the church and homeless groups. There are so many groups coming forward in the community, and there is no central registry for them.

Many people, for example, will contact my office and say: "Where do I go to help out?" Depending on what they have to offer, It would be very useful if there were some kind of information network that people could access or input to through the library system or through Social Services. I know the minister talked a little about the volunteer initiatives that she had brought forward. Has there been any thought given to some kind of database that would centralize information on existing volunteer networks or existing non-profit societies and ministerial services, so that the community could tap into it?

Hon. J. Smallwood: Many communities do have such a central registry, and we have funded that type of program through a number of different community agencies.

J. Tyabji: I want to ask a little about the day care initiatives that the minister has put forward. I know there are some dramatic changes in the Ministry of Social Services, and I know that the member for Vancouver-Langara has spent some time on this. The one issue that does affect my riding quite significantly is the kinds of programs that are in place for single parents who are getting back in the workplace and need day care. To what extent is the ministry working with the private sector to bring about the proliferation of properly regulated day care centres? There is a bit of a problem there as well.

Hon. J. Smallwood: As the member may be aware, the program enhancement and development responsibility for day care is now the responsibility of the Ministry of Women's Equality. This ministry has two major programs: the day care subsidy program, through which we subsidize low-income earners and support people on income assistance to provide day care; and special-needs day care. In our employment and training programs we have developed significant support for people going back into the workplace. That includes topping up the subsidy to meet the cost of day care for those who are taking advantage of those programs.

J. Tyabji: The last part of that question was: is this ministry working with the private sector to encourage the proliferation of day care centres? Are there proper regulations? Is the minister telling me that the regulation is through the Ministry of Women's Equality, or is there some regulation through Social Services?

Hon. J. Smallwood: Day care policy is spread out among a number of ministries, and we work cooperatively in dealing with new policy directions and enhancement. The responsibility of coordinating those day care programs and responsibilities is with the

[ Page 7633 ]

Ministry of Women's Equality. The Ministry of Women's Equality is actively pursuing a number of options, including the licensing and the standards of licensed day care, so I would encourage you to pursue that line of questioning with that minister.

A. Cowie: Hon. Chair, I would like to follow up with a few questions regarding the ministry's

part in social housing, and in housing in general.

Interjection.

A. Cowie: I understand that the ministry does not have housing, but I also understand that the ministry has some joint programs or funding with the Ministry of Municipal Affairs. That was announced some time ago -- homeless programs and things like that. I would like to know what criteria the ministry has for assisting and working with the Minister of Municipal Affairs on some programs, which I understand do exist.

Hon. J. Smallwood: The announcement that the member is referring to is funding for transition houses and hostels. We have programs for transition houses, second-stage housing and safe homes in the community, but affordable housing is the responsibility of the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing.

A. Cowie: Perhaps I could get the minister's opinion, however. Personally, I think housing is going to become a major problem in the next ten or 20 years. Whether it's affordable or not, many people simply will not have housing if we go the way we are now. I wonder if the minister has any sympathy for the idea of self-help housing, where people on UIC or whatever can build up credits by helping to build their own home or clean up an old home in order to participate in getting a home.

Hon. J. Smallwood: I would encourage the member to pursue that line of questioning with the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing.

[5:00]

A. Cowie: Well, thank you. I can see that I'm not going to get anywhere with one of my favourite programs. I'll try to make a comment, but it may lead to a question.

I have to congratulate the minister for getting programs going for tree planting and those sorts of innovative programs. I think people learn by doing that, and hopefully a large percentage of those trees will survive. I actually have faith that they will, if people have learned the business. I would have thought that people also could learn how to bang a nail into wood or clean up a garden or whatever. In the old days they used to. In the co-op programs -- and I really regret their demise -- people used to do their own landscaping and that sort of thing, and thus contribute to the program and keep the costs down. We'll get off that subject if the minister wishes to do that.

There used to be a program called the Environment Youth Corps, which in some ways is similar to the tree planting program. A youth could earn some money -- and there are a number of programs like this in the States now -- by cleaning up and repairing gardens and that sort of thing. In return, there's a certain contract signed. They have to agree to finish grade 12, and at the end of that time, youths from 17 to 23 -- just to take one example in the States -- would then get a $5,000 grant. In other words, it's trying to give people some structure, showing them how to get ready for the workplace or to find work for themselves. Is the minister considering any program like this?

Hon. J. Smallwood: One of our employment programs specifically targeted to young people is Youth Employment Skills or YES. It is to support young people, often with a significant barrier to employment in that they don't have a previous employment history at a time when so many other people are lining up for jobs. Our Youth Employment Skills is budgeted at $3.13 million this year, where we are investing directly in employment opportunities for young people.

A. Cowie: I won't pursue this too much further; I just wanted to get a general idea. Are those programs allocated to the heavily urban areas or are they more the rural areas where there is greater opportunity on farms and that sort of thing?

Hon. J. Smallwood: The programs are evenly distributed throughout the province. I don't want to mislead the member. While this program is specifically targeted for young people, they also take advantage of the forests enhancement program. They will take advantage of other programs that are specifically designed for the demographics or the geographic location of those communities.

A. Cowie: I will just ask one final question. I couldn't resist making the point about pins on a map. In fact, our office uses pins on maps; we aren't all that sophisticated. Sometimes that's very appropriate. I just want to make the final comment that I understand self-computer stations in government cost about $32,000 each. By the time you've got it set up properly, you very easily could build one housing unit for that. One doesn't necessarily have to plunge into the modern times when it might be more beneficial to give the money to the people who really need it and provide housing.

G. Wilson: I would like to return to a subject I was canvassing with the minister yesterday. One issue that I neglected to bring up has to do with the community service organizations and the contracts that are negotiated with those organizations, particularly the disparity there seems to be between unionized and non-unionized organizations in terms of the rate at which the contracts are negotiated and the benefits that are provided for work of equal value. I wonder if the minister might comment with respect to the distribution of funds to unionized and non-unionized community service organizations, and explain why --

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if there is work of equal value being provided -- equal wage rates aren't being paid.

Hon. J. Smallwood: There are a number of discrepancies, and the work of the Korbin commission helped us to identify those discrepancies in the contracting policies across government. The work that we will embrace in this ministry and across government is to deal not only with some of those human resource issues but with some of those wage equity or wage redress issues across that sector. We're quite eager to get on with that job, in partnership and cooperation with that community sector: the employers, the unions and the employees themselves.

G. Wilson: This matter was raised in a letter dated February 19 from the minister to Ms. Norma Collier, president of the British Columbia Association for Community Living. The minister commented that the government's wage.... By way of a preface to these remarks, essentially the minister was commenting that there were a variety of opinions as to how the distribution