Manitoba Hansard — 25 August 1969 (Sitting 9, 29th Legislature, 1st Session)

29-1-9

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Monday, August 25, 1969 ADJOURNED DEBATE - THRONE SPEECH MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gimli. 157 MR. JOHN C. GOTTFRIED (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, Honourable Ministers and Members of the House. Sir, may I first congratulate you upon your appointment to the highest office in the Assembly, and may I also commend the mover of the Throne Speech, the Honourable Member from Osborne, and the seconder, the Honourable Member from St. George, on the fine way they carried out their tasks.

As a representative of Gimli constituency, I would like at this time to pay a word of tribute to my predecessor the Honourable George Johnson who has done so much for this province in the field of health, education and social welfare. I hope that I prove worthy of the confidence the constituents have now placed in me. Gimli constituency, Mr.

Speaker, is one of the more challenging areas in our province, inasmuch as within its boundaries are to be found such wide diversity in the racial and cultural backgrounds and such wide variations in its geographic features, that while on the one hand it is the location of some of the finest wheat land, fishing grounds and resort areas, it also contains many of the poorest mixed farming areas to be found in the province. Thus, as part of the Interlake, Gimli constituency has been designated as an economically backward area and worthy of special assistance under the ARDA-FRED agreements.

Yet because of the rich variety of its natural resources, it has the potential of providing greater and more varied employment opportunities than now exist in many other regions of Manitoba. To achieve this aim, however, requires more initial capital investment to create the economically self sufficient farming and fishing units. It is my hope that this government will continue to assist the federally sponsored schemes now in operation to achieve this goal.

In this respect, we should as soon as possible establish and implement the provisions of the Fish Marketing Board, which was slated to begin operation in May, to provide a more stable price and a growing market for fresh water fish products. The provision for making loans for fishermen contained therein makes it imperative that this bill receive our immediate attention since many fishermen left for their fishing grounds this spring, fraught with uncertainties, awaiting the passage of this bill.

Now they must be prepared to honour their financial obligations, not only for the whitefish season just ended, but also in their present preparations for the fall and winter seasons. I shall be watching carefully the implementation of this bill to see that greater benefits accrue as originally intended to the primary producer - namely, the fishermen - and that those wh o will unfortunately lose their jobs in the reshuffle may be given suitable alternative employment. This was not the case wh en the British Columbia Packers plant at Gimli was shut down this spring.

The drainage of water from low lying areas still remains an acute problem in many parts of my constituency, especially in the construction and formation of the interconnecting arteries into the main channels. Stonewall and Teulon, two of our major centres, still lack waterworks, with the result that industries willing to locate within their bounds must look elsewhere. Not to mention the housing developments that would automatically result. Stonewall in particular requires some form of assistance to help overcome the prohibitive cost of cutting into the bed rock upon which the town was built.

It is my hope that this government will see fit to take action on these problems in the very near future. Most of my constituents, Mr. Speaker, anxiously await the removal of all or a large portion of the flat Medicare premium imposed upon them by the previous government, in particular those on pension, low incomes, and those trying to eke out an existence on the many marginal and sub-marginal farmlands. Placing the cost of Medicare on an ability-to-pay basis is another step forward in trying to make the good things this province has to offer available to all.

Finally, I would like to say a few words about the proposed Ombudsman Bill, inasmuch as it will help to curb discriminatory acts that are racial or ethnic in origin. The other day, the Honourable Rene Pepin made reference to a newspaper clipping wh ich stated that one-third of his constituents were French and two-thirds were German. Does this indicate that there exists a Franco-Prussian Republic within our boundaries, and does this imply that in some way he, the Honourable Minister, as a Canadian was not properly representing them? I say that if this

158 August 25, 1969 (MR. GOTTF RIED cont'

d) government made a concerted effort to have our citizens think of themselves as Canadians, and the Ombudsman Act is one step forward in that direction, then we will have done much towards preserving our national unity which is an item of prime importance today. Isn't it about time ? The Imperial Conference of 1926 stated and the Statute of Westminster in 1931 reaffirmed the fact that we were a nation. Shortly thereafter all the public schools in Manitoba displayed posters fringed with the symbol of the maple leaf and stating, among other things, that if you were born in Canada then you are a Canadian.

Then World War 11 broke out and we found out that legally we had no Canadian citizens. After the war, ottawa saw fit to pass the Citizenship Act in 1947 informing us that it was now fitting and proper to be known as Canadians , but this has not been the result. Since then we have witnessed an increase in the hyphenated variety of citizenship with their Canadian citizenship taking second place. I say that this is a sad record.

I say that we as Canadians should take positive steps to fill the vacuum that surely must exist in the hearts of those who left their native land to freely embrace this great land as the one of their choice. They , along with those born here , have every right to be accepted as Canadian citizens on an equal footing with all other Canadians , as Canadians. I am sure the Ombudsman Bill will help to achieve that goal and this is the thought I would like to leave this Assembly with. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Brandon West . MR. McGILL: Mr.

Speaker , I thank you for your recognition at this time and the oppor tunity to enter the debates in the Speech from the Throne. I would like firstly to be associated with those speakers who have gone before me , who have expressed their goodwill and their commendation to you on your elevation to your present position, and I, as a fledgling member , am hardly able to judge the quality of your performance to date but I feel, Sir, that the affairs of this House are in good hands , and I wish you well in your present position.

I would like also to join those who have expressed their feelings of goodwill and apprecia tion to the mover and the seconder, the Honourable Member from Osborne and the Honourable Member from St. George . I have a certain feeling of affinity for them because they are - as I am- a new member in this Legislature, and I was very much impressed by the way in which they carried out their duties and I am sure that we will hear a great deal more from them in the time to come .

May I also express my congratulations publicly to my honourable friend the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources who represents the constituency of Brandon East. We are all very proud of the fact that the honourable member is from Brandon, from the community of Brandon, and that he is representing that community at Cabinet level , rather a rare distinction, I might say, for the people and the representatives of our community, and I wish him well.

I should like , too, to express my congratulations to the members of the government for their success at the polls, and to the Honourable the First Minister -whose absence here tonight we note -for his elevation to the highest office that this Legislature can offer. We wish you and he , if not a long life, certainly a busy one and I hope that you and the Honourable the First Minister will accept the serious responsibilities of this Legislature in a spirit of humble sincerene ss , because I think these are certainly the characteristics of a successful government.

I would like to say, too, at this opportunity that I have not had previously, that I deeply appreciate those people in the constituency of Brandon West who worked so hard prior to and during the election for me, and I do appreciate that work very much . I appreciate the people who came out on June 25th and by their decisions assisted me in representing them here today and this evening.

I'd like , of course, to assure all of the constituents of Brandon West that I will represent them and support them in all their lawful undertakings regardless of their politi cal persuasi ons, and I hope that they will, if they feel I can be of assistance, refer their problems to me . I had thought, Mr.

Speaker , that I was perhaps the first member to represent Brandon West but a little research has indicated that back in the year 1886 there was a constituency known as West Brandon, and while the dimensions of that constituency are not related in the documents that I saw, it would indicate that the name is not entirely new . The first member to represent West Brandon was a man named John Kirkopher, and he was elected in 1886 and I believe that he later became Senator Kirkopher.

I think it would in in order to briefly describe the new constituency to the members here assembled because its boundaries were determined just prior to the June electi on, and they are from east to west in length 22 miles beginning at No. 10 highway, extending westward to No. 21 highway which runs north and south just to the east side of the Town of Griswold. In depth ,the

August 25, 1969 159 (MR. McGILL cont'd) . constituency from north to south is 12 miles bounded by No. 1 highway on the north and the access road to Lake Clementi on the south. To this rectangular projection of 22 miles by 12 miles we should add a further smaller rectangle of the u.rban area, which is one mile in width from 18th to First Street, and two miles in depth from No. 1 Highway again to Victoria Avenue, and in that rectangle most of the business area of Brandon is included as well as the central residential area north of Victoria Avenue.

And to the west, all of the western residential area of Brandon is included in the constituency, and this includes the site of Brandon University. There have been a number of distinguished representatives from Brandon through the years. The first to represent Brandon was a man named John Sifton and he was elected in November of 1881 and served in the Legislature of the following year. In 1907, the Honourable George Coldwell was elected from Brandon and he became the first Minister of Education for the Province of Manitoba.

It would not be fair to single out or to mention all of the representatives from Brandon but I would like to pay a special tribute to a man that I in part represent here this evening, the former Member from Brandon Mr. R. L. (Reg) Lissaman. Mr. Lissaman represented Brandon very ably from 1952 until 1969 when it was his decision to retire from public life. Among the many things which Mr.

Lissaman did for this Legislature and for his area of Manitoba, I would imagine that none will be remembered longer than his sincere work on behalf of Brandon College, an institution that was beset by difficulties through most of its life and which became particularly acute in 1952 when financial support for the institution was at an extremely low ebb in this Legislature. Mr.

Lissaman, by his forthright support and his constant work on behalf of the institution, was able to obtain approval from the government of that day to raise the grants, which were then I believe the princely sum of $22,500, to a very much greater amount, and the institution flourished from that time forward and is now well-known as Brandon University. So I think it should be said at this time that of all the things that Mr. Lissaman has done and of all those in elected office, he is perhaps most responsible for the proud position which the University of Brandon holds today.

In the opening sentences of the Speech from the Throne we are enjoined to consider the economic development of this province in relation to its historical perspective.

I think this is an excellent thought at this time, as we enter the hundredth year of the history of our province, and I would begin with Year 1882 because perhaps it's the first year that Brandon was repre sented in the Legislatu re , and it happens by coincidence to be a year that is rather important to me in that amongst a group of i=igrants from Peterboro district of Ontario, who were on their way to Manitoba to settle the new lands, was a group of people by the name of McGill which includedmy great-grandfather, my grandfather and my father amongst the others.

They travelled to Wi nnipeg by the means of that time and then from Winnipeg they proceeded by cart to follow the Edmonton Trail, a trail made useable in those days I think by trappers and traders of the Hudson Bay Company largely.

They followed the Edmonton Trail to a point on what was then the Little Saskatchewan River, known as Tanner's Crossing, and they had some difficulty in fording the streams at that point, there being no bridge, and my father , who was four years old, had particular difficulty so he was carried on the back of one of the adults of the group, and I think my great grandfather must have made it on hi.s own- he was 82 years old at the time.

I have since enquired of the Honourable Member from Minnedosa as to why the lack of a bridge at Tanner's Crossing and he tells me that he has since taken care of that; that there are bridges now to be used in that area.

They proceeded on from Tanner's Crossing to a point ten miles northeast of the town of Basswood where they established and took up homesteads in a community that's now known as the Fairmount district, and it was in this district that my grandfather became a postmaster and later a reeve of the municipality of Harrison with offices in New dale, and very briefly, a short time after they had settled this land, both my grandmother and grandfather died as a result of contracting typhoid fever while they were, I regret to say, on a visit to Brandon.

My father took up the farm and continued this homestead until his younger brothers and sisters completed their education and then he went to Newdale where he entered the private banking business, which was taken over by the Union Bank, and then went to Vancouver where he was again in the private banking business, and then in the latter years of World War I returned to Brandon where our family has lived ever since, so I have been a part of the history of this province for just about half of the first 100 years, and have been privileged to watch the progress particularly as it applies to our area of the province.

My absences have been briefly

160 August 25, 1969 (MR. McGILL cont'd) .••.. in the Thirties when, as you all know, there was a little diffi culty in obtaining employment in this part of the world, and I was able to obtain employment with the International Nickel Co. of Canada Ltd. in the smelter at Coppercliff and found this a very useful experience and good education. Aside from a further peiod of absence during my service in the RCAF I have been in Brandon ever since, in the civil aviation business.

The Speech from the Throne has supported the idea of regional economic development and of the notion that this government should, by all means at its disposal, take steps to correct any regional economic disparities. We have been, many of us, fortunate to visit northern Manitoba in the past few days and to see the economic development that goes ahead in that area. Certainly there is no question of economic development in the north.

It is really a matter of timing - I think the honourable First Minister said of pacing the development, and I think really the problem that confronts this administration is not to achieve development but rather to lead that development in a way in which the funds and resources of the government can be used so that they are not expended in large amounts too far ahead of the developments that will occur.

I think, if I may be permitted a venerable cliche, the economic development of the north has increased by leaps and bounds, and these leaps and bounds and the necessity for them were pretty apparent as we flew over the large tracts of muskeg and wilderness that still exist north of 53. The Mauro Report suggests how these leaps and bounds can be accomplished as an interim step.

They have suggested that it would be a proper interim step to continue the pro gram of airstrip development which was begun under the previous administration, and I would heartily support this view that this is a way in which the funds of the government can be used in a very useful manner at this stage in our development, because it avoids the costly work of building roads to communities whose full economic development may not be achieved for a number of years, and with relatively inexpensive airstrips, there now is available and coming on the market constantly, modern aircraft of high load-carrying capacity and a relatively short takeoff and landing capability, and this will certainly break the restrictive pattern imposed by the necessity to use float-equipped aircraft and with reduced cargo-carrying capacity, and the restrictive pattern imposed by having to have a water landing area adjacent to the area to be served.

So I would hope that the Honourable the Minister for Transport would consider this a very reasonable approach as an interim measure in the north. In all this development, planning and projection is of great importance and the previous administration must have, I am sure, received your enthusiastic support for the manner in which they have projected, for the basic resource of that area, the power developments that will be required to produce the energy that will be required of the industry to come.

The im mense natural resources that we now know of and those that have not yet been discovered, will require as a basic raw material the power that will come from the huge Kettle Rapids develop ment that they hope to have in operation in late 1970, and I think too that to achieve its full operational capability, a diversion of water will be very necessary, a diversion that will increase the flow of the Nelson and achieve the full capability of the Kettle Rapids project.

I hope that when this government, as we sincerely trust it will in the very few weeks ahead, makes a decision on the diversion that it will be done so unemotionally, that it will be done non-politically, and that it will be done with a sense of the historical perspective of our province, because this is a decision that will have its.effect for many, many years to come on the future of the province of Manitoba. We have a diversion project for the north; we have a projection that will provide the basic ingredients in all the developments to come, but in southern Manitoba the situation is not quite so clear.

I represent an area in the southwest that has a basic agricultural base. It is highly sensitive to the changing winds of markets all over the world for the basic product - grain. It is a very delicate economy and is the first in the province, I am sure, to show the result of any restriction .in the markets for our wheat. In the southeast we are fortunately better off. In Metro Winnipeg and its confines we have a very diverse economic base with its overlay of government services and its complete economy, depending on no particular single industry.

The Speech from the Throne has indicated that they will assist regional economic development and correct disparities where this is possible. I suggest that in the southwest perhaps lies their greatest problem. As many of the previous speakers have pointed out, right now we face a rather severe crisis, brought about by lack of markets for our product. There has been no decisive measures mentioned in the Speech as to how this correction should be made. I would suggest to the

August 25, 1969 161 (MR. McGILL cont'd) ••.•• administration that we need in Southern Manitoba a diversion. It will not be a diversion of water that will produce power, because we don't have the basic requirements for heavy industry. It would be , rather, a diversion of people resources. I would suggest that in agriculture, in education and in health services, the western Manitoba community has an environment that is most desirable.

There is there for the people of high skill , professional skills , perhaps a quality of life that is being eroded slightly in the Metro Winnipeg area where the existence is becoming more and more complicated, but if a diversion were to be made of those government services related to agriculture, and I speak now of those things in research, in support services, I speak of enlargement of educational facilities at all levels, which would require academic skill, scientific and research skill; I speak of those skills, those professional medical skills that would be required in the enlargement of the present broad health services which exist.

There is room in the area for considerable expansion and modernization of our facilities for extended care. There is room in this area for increase in the number of faculties provided at Brandon University, particularly as they relate to agriculture.

There is room,certainly, for all of those agricultural support services that are being offered today, and those I think as they are considered by government, should be each weighed very carefully to determine whether or not this wouldn't be a reasonable time to start a diversion of these services and these skills to the area which needs a strengthening of its economic base. Our province is only 100 years old. It is very young. Those things that need to be corrected should be done now.

It is not too early in our history, and certainly not·too late, to consider a policy which would broaden the economic base of the area to the west and give it a reasonable strength when difficult periods are experienced. Many years ago the Federal Government saw fit to establish an experimental farm at Brandon; it is now called an Agricultural Research Station.

I suggest that this area is a fitting area and one that could be used for an agricultural services centre where soil testing and veterinary diagnostic services could provide the basi::; and the support for what must be a broad ening of the mixed farming in that community. We in this area appreciate the problem of government when it becomes necessary to make a decision, and I suggest that in almost every industry it is possible to make a very valid argument for its location in the southeastern part of our province. No. 1, the people who would likely man this facility are already here.

They are comfortable; their homes are here. No. 2. There are already in this area all of the support services that would go with the industry in question. It's a very difficult pattern, I submit to this House, to upset but it does take definite action and once the diversion is made the channel itself will widen and deepen, I am sure , in the future, and the economic base of Western Manitoba will be greatly strengthened. Mr.

Speaker , it's been a privilege to present these views on behalf of Western Manitoba and I sincerely hope that those people who are charged with these decisions and these responsi bilities will regard them with great seriousness and make a just decision. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. P A TRICK: Mr. Speaker , I wish to make my contribution on this debate at this present time. It seems when one takes

part in the Throne Speech at this late stage, I feel that many things have already been said. The Throne Speech has been dealt with quite closely, and in this case I think the Leader of our group has dealt with the Throne Speech quite well, so I will try not to repeat some of the things that he has said already -I'll try and cover some new ground.

Firstly, it is my pleasure to congratulate you on your election as ruler of this highest office in this Assembly, and I as well would like to pay my respect to you as the guardian and protector of the rights and liberties of this House, and the men and one lady wh o sit in it. It is, as well, my pleasure to congratulate the mover and the seconder of the debate in reply. I felt that they made very interesting speeches.

It is my pleasure as well to congratulate the govern ment for their victory on June 25th and I wish the Premier and his Cabinet well, but I hope that the life of the government on that side is not going to be for too long. Mr. Speaker , I also want to, in some way, congratulate the Minister the Attorney General. I feel that the people are blessed in sunny St. James, in the city of St.

Je.mes Assiniboia at least , finally having a cabinet minister in the government, and quite often wrongly the people sometimes feel that once their area 'is represented in the cabinet, they have a direct pipeline to the government, which is not necessarily the case, but at this time I really

162 August 25, 1969 (:MR. PATRICK cont'd) •.... do want to compliment the Attorney -General. I know that he's an avid hunter and perhaps if the House does sit until probably late September, I am sure that there will be probably a few more spoonbills around just because the House will sit and he's a Cabinet Minister. :MR. MACKLING: I can do it later, Steve. :MR. PATRICK: Mr.

Speaker, getting back to the Throne Speech itself, I was pleased to hear that the government promises to do so much for the people, and it would seem that our province is in for a great period of tremendous activity in all areas of human endeavours, but once you have examined that Speech much closer, really there isn't much new, and all that's in the Throne Speech is what has been debated in this House during the past session.

There are some few things that are new and I would like to say at this time, I know that the Premier has mentioned on a couple of occasions now that this is an irregular session and some of the Private Members' Resolutions will not be taken into consideration, and I was very much dis appointed to hear this because, really, I feel that as far as the Opposition is concerned there is no reason why we cannot propose or I cannot see why the Members on this side should be precluded from proposing any new ideas . . . :MR. PAULLEY: ••. is wide open. You go right ahead and propose them. :MR.

PATRICK: Because, as well, there are some new things as far as the Throne Speech is concerned, some new things in respect to what was left on the Order Paper during the last session. You feel that there is no reason for us on this side not to introduce ... that we would like to at this time. MR. PAULLEY: We welcome ... The conclusions may not be satisfactory. :MR. PATRICK: What was that ? :MR. PAULLEY: I say the conclusions may not be satisfactory. We welcome your proposals. :MR. PATRICK: I have no intention of dealing with all the points in the Throne Speech, Mr.

Speaker, but I cannot resist the temptation to deal with a few points. I know that many Manitobans will welcome the points outlined in the Throne Speech and I would be remiss if I did not mention at this time that many of the points in the Throne Speech at one time, or through the years, the past few years, have been introduced or probed by the members of the Liberal Party, and I'm glad to see that many of those points are in the Throne Speech. I was also glad, in the Throne Speech, that the government intends to reduce the Medicare premiums extensively.

I feel that the indecision of the previous government has cost Manitobans some millions of dollars, and I think if anyone has read the Royal Commission on Medicare it stated that after some 40 years of endeavours on the part of the voluntary private plans and insurance companie's, less than 50 percent have any degree or had any degree of Medicare coverage, and because of the high cost of health care only a few at the top income brackets can survive from any serious illness or injury without beinr;; financially crippled.

I think we should recognize the fact that it's part of the democratic process to make decisions for the common good, to achieve a desirable goal, and I'm glad that the NDP are prepared to carry out their promise to reduce Medicare premiums. You will recall, Mr. Speaker, that the Liberal Party during the last session introduced a resolution to debate and to reduce, because the present Medicare plan failed to take into consideration the ability -to -pay basis.

The premium was charged the same for everyone in the province regardless of what their income was, and for this I am happy that the government is prepared to keep their promise. I was also happy to see mention in the Throne Speech review of The Revenue Tax Act and I hope that the sales tax will be remov ed from children's clothing, books and school supplies, soaps and detergents, and as well I feel that the utility tax should be removed as well. I would also request the government to give consideration to removing the sales tax on sports equip ment used by young people in our community clubs. :MR.

CHERNIACK: What's young people's equipment ? Little hockey sticks ? :MR. PATRICK: That's right. Equipment- - baseball -- because, Mr. Speaker, really most of our community clubs have a difficult time keeping their doors open today, and in many cases the coaches, or the people working with the young athletes, are forced to dip into their own pockets and buy the equipment so they can field a hockey team or a baseball team. On top of that they have to pay the sales tax , and I think in this area, I hope that the Finance Minister will take this into consideration, Mr. Speaker.

I also welcome the amendment to The Metropolitan Winnipeg Act offering reduced transit fares, as the bill was tabled and passed second reading today. I mentioned at that time that I

August 25, 1969 163 (MR. PATRICK cont'd) ..•.• did speak on this

part last session on the Throne Speech, and I was glad to see the bill go through the House. However, the former administration could have just as easily passed this and I cannot see why the previous government did not do it because at least they would have had some goodies to offer to the people during the election time and say' "Look what we've done, " and for some unknown reason they did not do this. -- (Interjection) - No, I -- probably another two weeks I think that session could have been fully completed. (Interjection)-- That's not true, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, during my first session in this Legislature I proposed a resolution to reduce the voting age and I feel that we cannot discourage citizens from evaluating government policy or candidates in their constituency. A lot of study has gone into this aspect and I know in Ontario, the study that was conducted, there was no significant difference from the questions that were asked of a man that was 21 or from a person that was 18.

So I feel that today people at 18 or 19, because of better education and more education, I feel they're just as easily capable of evaluating fiscal policy of a government or their candidate in their constituency as a man 21, and I cannot see why we should promote to disinterest people when we exclude from 18 to 21 to participate in a democratic process. So I hope that we will be receiving some legislation in respect to reducing the voting age, if not this session perhaps the next session, which I under stand will be some time in the beginning of the year. Mr.

Speaker, on the other hand I want to be very critical of this government in the field of housing, because if anyone on this side not so long ago it seemed that the members of the New Democratic Party seemed to have had all the answers in respect to housing in this province, and there's nothing mentioned in the Throne Speech in respect to housing for low income people and I was very disappointed, because I think it's one of the most important items that should be considered in this province at the present time.

We all know that large proportions of homes, five out of seven today, are financed through the CMHC financing. Every CMHC borrower in Canada makes, or has to make to qualify, a little over $8, 000. 00. The average income in Canada is $5, 900. 00. So, many people making below $8, 500.00 do not qualify for a CMHC financing and are unable to buy a home. Canada has prided itself on being a nation of homeowners and I think that we are quickly becoming a nation of renters. HON. SIDNEY GREEN (Minister of Health & Social Services)(Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the honourable member would permit a question at this point ? MR. PATRICK: Sure. MR. GREEN: I wonder if the honourable member can exercise any influence on his colleagues in Ottawa to do something about those restrictions that he has just referred io with regard to CMHC loans. MR . PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, housing is still a provincial matter and I am sure that the Minister knows that he can do something because the Province of Ontario, which I will just point out to him, and the Province of British Columbia, have done something about it.

So I'm sure that the Provincial government in Manitoba can do something about in respect to housing. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I just wonder whether the honourable member would permit another question at this point. I appreciate the fact that we can do something about it but,with regard to the restrictions that you had just referred to, with regard to CMHC homes and the amount that is required in order to get one, could you exercise any influence on the colleagues of your party in Ottawa to change those restrictions ? MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, yes, I perhaps can.

You will recall that last session I introduced a resolution -- I think that you got my answer wrong -- the last few sessions I introduced·. a resolution to this House to reduce the 12 percent and 5 percent sales tax on building materials, and I will be most happy to see the present government to take the 5 percent sales tax and likewise -- (Interjection) -- Mr. Speaker, we are told in the Metro Report on Urban Renewal that half the families in Winnipeg live in substandard housing and that there are 5, 000 homes in Winnipeg that should be probably removed.

So it appears that something has to be done, particularly in the area of medium to low income group, and I would like to at this time say that there are provinces that are doing something about it. For instance, British Columbia makes an outright grant of $1, 000 for first time home buyers in that province. Further, it offers a mortgage of up to a limit of $5,000 at the same rate that the first mortgage is offered through the CMHC or under the National Housing Act.

Ontario offers a second mortgage up to 20 percent of the purchase of the unit with 75 percent first mortgage, 20 on the second, making a total of 95 percent financing

164 August 25, 1969 (MR. PATRICK cont'd) .•... for the one unit. And at the present time, the Ontario Housing Corporation has announced it has 8, 500· condominiums under construction in the City of Toronto alone. These condominiums are priced from $13, 000 to $26, 000 per unit with their income requirement to buy from $5,200 to $9,500 and, Mr. Speaker, I would say with this type of a program I'm sure that many people who are making $5,000 and over, up to $8, 500, the ones that cannot qualify for a direct loan, would certainly appreciate and would fit into a program like this.

As well, the Ontario Housing Corporation offers the purchasers where they can lease their land and where they don't have to buy and it requires a much smaller equity. I am somewhat disappointed, Mr. Speaker, that last year, or a few years ago, I intro duced to this House a resolution for condominium legislation, and it appears that it has not caught on as quickly in this city and province as it has in perhaps Ontario or some of the other centres, Hamilton or Vancouver where it is working as a very good vehicle for many people in a low income group.

I know since the legislation became law there's only one condominium on a large scale that's under construction at the present time, and that's in the constituency of Assiniboia. But I feel that there must be some encouragement given to the builders or more information, so they would take advantage of this type of legislation, and I think this would go a long way as far as people being able to afford to buy their own living accommodation.

Because, if you recall, in the federal Helly'er Task Force on Housing it was pointed out very strongly that most people living in government-subsidized housing were not too happy. Many of them would prefer to have a home of their own, and if this is the case, then I say this is the type of vehicle we would have to use in this province so we can be able to offer people in the lower income groups a home of their own. Mr. Speaker, I was as well disappointed when this government made no mention in the Throne S.peech about tax freeze for the city core of Winnipeg.

I have to admit that the Premier did say that it's still under consideration and we may have something, but I think that we have to act in this respect quite quickly because at the present time Winnipegers do suffer from high taxation, divided local government, shortage of low cost housing, and we have difficulty in attracting investors to this city because of the high tax in respect to commercial buildings, and I had done some research in this field and I can probably point it out to the members in a few words in a couple of minutes. So, Mr.

Speaker, I would have liked to say I did not completely agree with the proposal that the Honourable Member for Wolseley was presenting to the House last year where we had the whole City of Winnipeg asking for a tax freeze. I don't think it was right as far as the other municipalities were concerned and the other parts of Manitoba, be cause if we allowed this for Winnipeg there is no reason why St. James -Assiniboia or Fort Garry or some other municipality should have not had the same concession.

But I feel if it would have been restricted just to the city core for urban renewal purposes, I think it would have been the right thing to do and to advantage of the city, because I feel that some of the other cities out west such as Calgary and Edmonton have almost reached the saturation point as far as commercial and industrial buildings, and this is the right time for Winnipeg to attract new capital and I think that we can do it. We should not be waiting but I feel that the tax freeze probably would have been an incentive in this direction.

I think that urban renewal is one of the greatest challenges that any government, city government or municipal, faces at the present time. I think that we should rebuild our urban centres to shape the kind of cities that people would like to live in the city core in a proper environment. Urban renewal is also a continuous process of, I think, replanning, rebuilding and reshaping our cities, and I'm very disappointed that the government did not do anything at the present time because I feel if the heart of the city is enlarged, so will the outlying com munities grow as well.

But if your city core is not prosperous, if it's in a df:lcay, naturally your outlying municipalities and communities will not grow as well. I just wanted to point out, Mr. Speaker, that at the present time for apartment buildings along, taxes per square foot, on the same type of building in Edmonton it is considerably less than any other city in western Canada, and so is Victoria, Calgary and Winnipeg, the same type of acco=odation in an apartment block is considerably higher. I think that we have to take this into consideration.

If we go to commercial buildings we are almost in the same predicament because the rent structure, the return in eastern Canada is higher than it is in Winnipeg. So I'm not so strongly sold on tax concessions of any kind but I think if we're going to attract people to this city, a tax concession or tax freeze --I wouldn't say a tax concession --tax freeze probably during the construction period would have been the kind of

�--�- �--�-� --�------- --�� - 1 August 25, 1969 165 (MR. PATRICK cont'd) .. ... incentive for the city core of Winnipeg that I'm sure all members in this House would have been able to support, and I hope that the government will still give consideration.

I could point out that during a seven-year period one of your devel·· opers, M.A.P.C., developed such buildings in the city as IBM Building, Imperial House, Britannia House, 360 Broadway and Royal Trust Building, and they would have continued to develop more except that they found that it was more profitable and a better return on their money to develop in other centres instead here, and this is the reason that I'm pointing this out. I have right in the report a statement, but I don't think it's any -- it's newsworthy to this House or to our city. I would not want to quote it.

It's out of the MPC financial statement, but I do feel that the government must look very realistically as far as the tax freeze is concerned for the city core for urban renewal, as far as attracting investors to this city. MR. RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood): Is a tax freeze enough? MR. PATRICK: Mr.

Speaker, you have to start -- I can't tell you if it's enough but you have to start somewhere and I think it's --probably the timing has been pretty good because, as I mentioned, the other cities have almost reached the saturation point as far as commercial buildings are concerned and this is probably the right time for Winnipeg, and with a little incentive maybe we can attract quite a few investors to Winnipeg. Mr. Speaker, on a different point completely.

Last year I introduced a resolution to this House to give a homestead exemption on the first $2, 000 of assessment to old age pensioners who qualify for a supplement. This is not giving a $2, 000 exemption to somebody who does not require or somebody who lives in a 50, 000 or 60 ,000 or 25 , 000 dollar home. I'm talking about old age pensioners who live in a relatively inexpensive home. These people have worked all their lives to retire in dignity, to be able to retire in their own home, and are forced today because of high education tax and property tax to have to in some instances sell their homes.

And I would have liked to see the government take some action in this respect. As far as the cost to the province, I think it's going to be very small. I don't think it would reach anywhere, .not even, probably three -quarters of a million dollars, and I don't think it would be very much for the people that live in their own home who at the present time are receiving old age pension and an old age supplement. If you calculate the many pensioners there is in Manitoba I don't think it's giving these people too much.

I'm sure that the municipal people who are here sitting in this House would probably agree with me that these facts are correct and this is what usually is happening in many areas where the old age people are behind in their property tax. I 'm talking from experience because I've talked to many people who've come to see me and said, I can't stay in my own house any more because the cost factor is too high. I can't keep it up. Because besides paying taxes they have upkeep on the house, and the heat and so on. So I would have liked to see some consideration in this field.

I know the Honourable Minister of Education last year introduced a resolution of $2 , 000 exemption on every home to everyone in the whole province of Manitoba and I'm sure that if anyone would have calculated what it would have cost, I think it would have cost somewhere in the neighbourhood of $22 million and I can't see where you'd have generated that kind of money for that type of legislation. I think what I'm proposing or requesting here is feasible and I hope that the government will give it consideration in due time.

You may also realize that in the two years' period since the old age security pensions were tied to the consumer price index, that the living costs have gone up considerably much higher than was earlier predicted by the Federal Government that it would keep pace and this is not the case so I think we definitely have to do something in this field. Mr. Speaker, I just have a few more points. I would like to appeal to the government at this time -I made this point in committee on reviewing The Municipal Act, that I would like to see disabled people to be able to vote by mail.

I know that some of the municipalities are using it at the present time and it has been working quite well. I know the City of St. James Assiniboia have used it for some five years. It has no problems and I cannot see why the system cannot be the answer for many people who are crippled or disabled in wheel chairs and have not the right to vote by mail. I know that many states in the United States use the system in their state elections and federal elections as well and it has worked extremely well.

I know that many of these people at times of election do want to exercise their franchise to get to the polls, and first thing there is a stairway they can't get up and they have to go home and not be able to exercise their vote as they should. So, Mr. Speaker, I wish the government will give consideration in this respect and amend The Municipal Act so the disabled and infirm are able

166 August 25, 1969 (MR. PATRICK cont'd) .•... to vote by mail. I know this works quite well. I would just like to read an excerpt from the State of California Voters' Handbook. I'm quoting, Mr. Speaker, now: "If a voter is confined to hospital, sanatorium or nursing home because of illness, he may obtain and return a ballot up to the time when the polls close. Such an absent voter's ballot is to be requested in writing accompanied by written statement from one of the several designated persons.

A voter who expects to be absent from his election precinct or who will be unable to vote because of physical disability or by reason of fact that the tenets of his religion prevent him from attending the polls on election day, may secure his ballot from the Clerk and cast it by complying with the following rules: He may apply in person or in writing to the County Clerk for absent voter's ballot provided his request is signed, shows his place of residence and makes clear the reason he is entitled to a ballot.

A request may be received by the County Clerk not more than 29 nor less than 7 days before the day of election. The Clerk sends the Inspector of Elections of each precinct a list of voters in his precinct who have applied for and received a ballot. The absent voter, after receiving his ballot, may mark his ballot and transmit it to the Clerk by mail. He marks his ballot in pen and ink or indelible pencil and places the declaration in an identifica tion<(llvelope provided. He then fills it and signs the declaration on the envelope and mails it to the office of the Clerk.

The absent voter ballot must be received by the Clerk by five o'clock the day before election. All supplies are furnished by the Clerk and no charge may be made by any officer of the state for services rendered an absentee voter. " The above is an excerpt from a personal letter from a voter in California. So I cannot see why this type of procedure cannot work here . Mr. Speaker, I'm coming --(Interjection) --perhaps it can also work for many of the service people today who are sometimes disfranchised because their change of residence takes place so quickly. Mr.

Speaker, during this last year, I think that the university students probably had more difficulty in finding jobs than at any time si nce I've been a member of this House. I know that I had many of them phone and come to see me and they had real serious problems which they were able to have employment in previous years and they were not able to get this year. But I would like to make one point that the employment office at the University for students was a great success last year.

I understand that the University put up $25,000 and the government put $25, COO for a total cost of $50, 000 and this program that was carried out this last summer was very successful. I would like to see if the government can review the program, perhaps maybe increase the amount that's required and this may be a great assistance to many of our university students in respect to getting employment during summer holidays that has been so difficult this past summer. Mr. Speaker, one more point that I have here, and that's the Inner Perimeter Beltway in St. Jame s.

I hope the Minister of Transportation will take the time to acquaint himself w ith the Inner Perimeter Beltway that's been proposed by the Metropolitan Corporation of Winnipeg and I think it's important that the government have a policy in this respect, are they L'l agree ment or not, because many people even at the present time in St. James, in the west of Greater Winnipeg area are quite concerned about this.

It seems that they're not getting any satisfaction from their other Metropolitan members and on the other hand there has been expropriation going on continually which indicates that definitely the Inner Perimeter will go, . which was designated. Well, I think it's important to the people in that area.

It's important to me as a member in this House and many people in the constituencies, to see what is the government policy, because in the long run the government will have to supply money for any type of such a vast undertaking as the arterial highways and Inner Perimeter Beltway which I understand is -there's rumour talked about that it's going to cost somewhere in the neighbour hood of $200 million. If this is the figure that can be used loosely, I think it is a figure that the government should get itself concerned with and should have a policy in that respect. Mr.

Speaker, I just have one more point and that's in respect to auto insurance. I have some reservations in this respect. It's not because I have a personal interest in it. I don't think it affects my personal interest in any way, shape or form, but if the government is going to get involved in government auto insurance I would like to see that private carriers are not precluded from participating in that program or competing in that manner. The second point, I would not like to see the government subsidize any government plan. Besides I think a premium should carry itself.

I think if we look at the Saskatchewan program

August 25, 1969 167 (MR . PATRICK cont'd) .. ... and I think that many of us here would be disappointed if perhaps some of you maybe have had experience becau se of your professions as lawyers and so on that have acted maybe for clients in this province when men or a motorist from this proVince was involved in an accident with somebody from Saskatchewan and in a serious accident in which there was probably injury involved to a great extent and then you try and get compen sation . I think it's one of the greatest and most difficult things one can get from a government insured program .

I'm not saying that this is the kind of a program that . MR. GREEN: Hard to get it from the . . . MR . PATRICK : Not necessarily so , but I think ... MR. PAULLEY: Sometimes take years. MR . P A TRICK : During my time and experience I don 't think that anything has been as difficult to get any claim settled as it was with ,one accident that I' m familiar with where a person had a broken leg, two legs broken , not only him, the whole family, the child had a leg broken , and when I tell you what the compensation was you wouldn't believe it . But this is how difficult it was .

First it was difficult to get any understanding until the person here had to get a lawyer, which is costly, and this is what you have to put up with . Now I'm not against in a way if the government wants to establish insurance but I don't think you're going to gain any thing in that respect . The second point is, Mr . Chairman, I don 't believe that the bad driver should pay the same premium as the good drivers.

Surely there must be some - and this is what government insurance is, that everybody pays the same, so if one driver is involved in , half a dozen accidents in a year, surely he should pay some penalty for that type of driving and the one that has a clean record has to pay the same . I don 't think this should be. At the present time in Manitoba we already have compensation without fault in respect to death benefits of $5, 000 to the head of the household; we have death benefits for the children and the other members of the household and as well $50 . 00 a week compensation during disability.

The only problem is I would have sooner liked to have seen this mandatory instead of a voluntary basis, because many people have this type of compensation clause added to their policy whlle there's many others that don 't and I would have liked to have seen this as being mandatory so that every policy would have been covered the same way . MR. SPEAKER : Order . May I remind the honourable member he has four minutes remaining. MR . PATRICK : Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I'm just coming to the end of my remarks, Mr . Speaker. I have one more point that I would like to make .

In the Throne Speech the Premier has mentioned that he would make greater use of House committees of the members in here , and I certainly think it's the right thing and the right course to take . I think that the committees can do a good job in this House because if we look back at the members that served on the Highway Safety and Driver Training Committee a few years ago - and I had an opportunity to serve on that co=ittee - I think it did a real good job in respect to cross-walks .

We wrote the complete new Highway Traffic Act and I think that committee met during the two years that it sat for many times, did a good job , and as a result we have a new Highway Traffic Act . We have, I think , better cross-walks in the whole metropolitan area of Winnipeg; we have driver training programs throughout the whole province, and I cannot see any reason wh y we cannot establish House committees in other areas as well. So I certainly appreciate and I think that's certainly worthwhile considering. Mr .

Speaker , during the last two years I certainly had some problems as far as our end of the city was concerned in respect to schools, and I hope that this doesn't happen again because I know that thousands of school children had to attend staggered classes in Assiniboia and a great many children had to attend staggered classes in St . James , and I could really appreciate that staggered classes probably had to be maybe attended in Assiniboia because of the great explosion and expansion in the area, but certainly I don't feel it was necessary in St .

James because there wasn 't the explosion and so many new homes built. It was very. limited and very few, so I would hope that this government doesn 't get itself into a predicament of approving schools in the budget for construction of schools in the Greater Metropolitan area of Winnipeg, that we'll lose a year and then we find ourselves in the position where the children have to attend staggered classes, and I think in the age group that the ones in St.

James had to attend , I know the parents were really concerned and were not too happy because it's just at the age where it's difficult to control the kids because they're in Grades 7, 8 and 9, and will not discipline themselves, and I think this is the time they need discipline the most . I just hope

168 August 25, 1969 (MR . PATRICK cont'd) .•.. that the same thing doesn't happen. Mr . Speaker, in ending I would like to say that I will not support the amendment by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. I would like to almost try to repeat what my leader has already said , not that we agree with everything or will be agreeing with everything that the New Democratic government will be doing and proposing.

I feel that there's going to be many things that we'll be opposing and opposing very strenuously, but according to the present Throne Speech I see nothing in there that we would feel, and with the short time that there was change in administration, that we should support a non -confidence motion at this time, and for this reason I will not support it, but that doesn't mean that I will support measures that I do not agree or believe with. These are just a few of the things that I wanted to mention at this time, Mr. Speaker, and I'll be making other points later. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas .

MR . BOROWSKI : Mr . Speaker, I was wondering if I could ask a question of the honour- able member who just sat down? MR. SPEAKER: If the honourable member for The Pas will permit . MR. RON McBRYDE (The Pas): It's all right with me . MR . BOROWSKI: Is the member who spoke indicating that he's for the Beltway? MR . PATRICK: I'm not the Minister. I was asking you, Sir. Continued on next page .. . .. .. .

August 25, 1969 169 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas . MR. RON McBRYDE (The Pas) : I'm very pleased, Mr. Speaker, to be able to rise on this occasion and to present to you this, my maiden speech. Like the maiden I'm not yet sure whether it will be a painful or a pleasurable experience. First, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to again congratulate you on your election to the position of Speaker of the House. You have already demonstrated that you are well qualified for this position. As a member on this side of the House I can of course support the Speech from the Throne 100 percent.

Everyone must realize, however, that it's just a token of our legislative program, As a northerner I'm especially pleased to see the increased emphasis this government has placed on northern development, and what I see is a recognition by this government that economic and physical development serve one basic purpose - that is human development. The proposed legislation to allow treaty Indians to vote on and to become members of school boards is another important item. Let us not forget, however, that this is just the beginning of what we as a legislator must do to help these our first Canadians.

The cuts in the Medicare premiums, the consumer legislation, the changes in labour legislation, the upgrading of the minimum wage, study of automobile insurance, preparation of human rights legislation, the Fish Marketing Act and other proposals are of course all important. If I might, however, I would like to take a few moments to give you some understanding of my constituency. The main centre of The Pas constituency is of course The Pas itself. The Pas has been billed as gateway to the north, as home of the Trappers Festival and more recently as my home.

Besides the usual establishment people there are in The Pas many working people and quite a number of civil servants. A lot of workers are employed by the railroad and more recently a number are beginning to work with Churchill Forest Industries. The Pas is presently at the beginning stage of new growth as a result of this forest industry complex. In spite of what you may have been led to believe from reading The Pas' conservative reactionary press, The Pas is actually becoming a progressive and dynamic community.

We have our reactionary, we have our share of bigots, and people who pursue their narrow self interest, but we also have our broadminded and progressive citizens. They call themselves The Pas NDP Association. Seriously, The Pas is about to undergo considerable growth and its accompanying changes and growing pains . As it grows the old establishment will probably lose some of its power and influence and it will be interesting to see what sort of new social structures emerge, It will also be important to see whether or not the new industrial progress will bring accompanying social progress.

Will a tr uly representative union be allowed to represent the workers. Will the pulpwood cutters get more than the marginal wages they are presently being paid ? Will local labour be given first preference and appropriate training so that they can take full advantage of this local economic development? I hope that the answers to these questions will be in the affirmative. On the east and west side of The Pas are farming areas, and they're NDP farming areas, known as the Carrot River and Rahls Island. Like farmers all over Manitoba, these are good people who are having a difficult time.

Across the Saskatchewan River north of The Pas is The Pas Reserve which is one of the most progressive in Manitoba and whose representative is the young lady you saw this afternoon. Also on the other side of the river are two non-treaty or Metis settlements. As you fly east from The Pas - and you have to fly, there is no all weather road - you come to the Indian and Metis settlement of Moose Lake and southeast to the relocated community of Easterville. Both of these communities depend upon the fishing industry, with some trapping and some pulpwood or sawmill cutting.

Another larger centre is the town of Grand Rapids with its mixture of Hydro people, village people who are mostly Metis and the treaty Indians again on the other side of the river. From there The Pas constituency moves into the Interlake region and includes the Reserves of Sknownan, Dauphin River, Fairford, Little Saskatchewan, Lake St. Martin, Koostatak, Jackhead and the large Peguis reserve. Also in here are the farming communities, again NDP communities, of Dallas and Homebrook and the fishing village of Pine Dock or Little Bullhead.

The Interlake as you probably know is an economic depressed area and until ARDA probably a neglected area. Amongst others there are numerous road and drainage problems. It takes me a full day to drive from one end of my constituency to the other. To do this I must travel through four other constituencies. The area is large and the geography and ethnic backgrounds vary considerably. As you may have guessed, approximately 40 percent of the people in my constituency are

170 August 25, 1969 (MR. McBRYDE cont'd. ) . . . . . of Indian ancestry. My interest in and acquaintance with the Indian people of the north along with my identification with the working class are the main reasons why I ran as an NDP candidate in this election. So with your permission, I would like to talk about the situation of Indian and Metis people. ' The Indian people, Treaty, non-treaty and mixed blood are at a turning point in their history; having been beaten down and suppressed by the majority culture, they have begun in the last five or ten years to make a comeback.

It is today probably the most exciting time since the coming of Europeans to be an Indian or to be able to work with Indian and Metis people. The apathy which we for ced on to them is beginning to disappear. A new sense of pride and a new sense of direction, new hopes and aspirations are emerging. Community awareness is developing and strong leaders are coming forth to fight alongside their people. The organizations of the Manitoba Indian Brotherhood and the Manitoba Met ls Federation are significant signs of this new vitality.

I must warn you that the expectations of the Indian and Metis in Manitoba are at this time very high, that those of you who visit the north must realize that the battle is not yet won and the people of Indian ancestry face many roadblocks as they come to grips with the larger society. These obstacles can take the form of control and domination by outsiders or the form of prejudice or simply the form of indiff erence on the part of the rest of society .. In isolated communities this obstacle can be a local trader or storekeeper or a local clergyman or teacher or it can be a civil servant.

In the past, the department of the provincial government has been one of the worst offenders in terms of preventing community growth and self-government in isolated northern communities. It is my hope that this northern aff airs

section of our government will undergo major changes so that the employees become the civil servants and not the civil masters of the people. The people of Indian ancestry are, as I said, at a crossroads. The provincial and federal governments and the people of Manitoba and Canada can still shut the lid and hold the Indian people back. We can adopt enlightened legislation and attitude which will allow the people of Indian ancestry to become full participating citizens while still maintaining their own cultural identity or we can block their further progress.

I hope that as legislators we will be able to take the more enlightened approach. It has been a great learning experience for me as an individual to have been able to work with Indian and Metis people. I have learned, I hope, to become more sensitive and to respect people regardless of their status or their cultural differenc es. I hope that we will as a government and as legislators, and as we sit here in this grand building we must realize that there are people throughout this province who are having difficulties and people who are suff ering.

They are depending upon us to give them that boost and that opportunity that will allow them to fulfill themselves as individuals and to create a society that will have meaning and purpose for all Manitobans and hopefully for all mankind. I sincerely hope that this government will never reach the stage at which we become isolated from the needs and concerns of the people; that we never become so insensitive that we must say as the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition said in regards to farm ers, "We didn't know there was a problem. " If we ever become so detached then we too would deserve to be defea ted.

It is my feeling that Manitoba's 29th Legislature could be one of the most significant in the history of this province and it is my pleasure to join with you on this very exciting occasion. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speaker, my first words must be in following the tradition of this House in offering you my sincerest congratulations on the position of responsibility that you have assumed in this Chamber. The position of Speaker carries with it a very heavy burden of responsibility.

The progress of debate, the eliciting of inform ation, conduct of the members to a large extent rests in your hands. The Speaker must be familiar and have a thorough knowledge of the rules of this Hous e. But a knowledge of the rules in themselves will not necessarily create the kind of atmosphere that is required to get progress in the passage of legislation and the voting of Supply.

A Speaker must be impersonal and he must manifest his impartiality so that there can be no question on any side of the House that he is the presiding officer and that he is doing his utmost to insure that everyone in this Chamber has an opportunity to express themselves. It means that the Speaker must have judgment and tact - and I think that tact is a most important quality. In the years that I was fortunate in

August 25 , 1969 171 (MR, JORGENSON cont•d. ) .. ••• attending the House of Commons as a member I had the opportunity of watching some of the best speakers this country has ever had, and I join with someone who said earlier, who said that -- (Interjection) -- I don't recall at any time that Tommy Douglas was ever the Speaker of the House of Commons. I'll admit he did an awful lot of it, but I don't recall him ever as being the presiding officer of that Chamber. I know that you members believe a great deal of what they hear but I wouldn't think they'd have gone that far.

I don't think that in all the years that I was in Ottawa that I saw one who possessed all of those qualities as well as the present occupant of that high office. I speak of Speaker Lamoureux. Ami it was without any doubt on the part of all members that Mr. Lamoureux would occupy that position as permanent speaker. He's fully qualified. And I'm sure as you gain the experience in this Chamber, Sir, that you will exercise those qualities, because I believe you have them, in such a way that there will be no doubt in this House that you will be the permanent incumbent of that position.

You know, Sir, too frequently legislative bodies are regarded by people who are outside this Chamber, and I might add by sotre people who have been in this Chamber for a long time, as nothing more than legislative mills to which the ingredients are poured in one end and you turn the crank and legisWion comes out the other end. There's a great deal more to a legislative body than that. Too often of late we seem to regard the passage of legislation as the only function of a legisWive body. I don't think it is. Never intended to be.

The first function of a legislative body is to control the purse strings, and there isn't a great deal of difference, Sir, between a totalitarian system and a democratic system, - a great difference. They're both equipped with the same powers. The only difference is, in a democratic system those who occupy the seats of the mighty have to answer a few questions, have to justify their expenditures in the legislative body where the representatives of the people have an opportunity to question them.

They can only perform that function if they have the freedom of expression and the opportunity to question those who are in authority. The voting of Supply in my view is the important function of a legislative body. But the second one is the expressive function, where on behalf of their constituents members have an opportunity of voicing their opinions and their views on behalf of the people that they represent. The third function is the informative one, where members are able to communicate to the public through the medium of the news media so that they are informed as to what is going on in the legisWive body.

I think the laSt function, the legislative�one, is the least of importance of all the functions although it seems to be occupying the greatest time in legisWive bodies today. I want to also, Sir, offer my congratulations to the government and particularly to the Premier, a man who I had the pleasure of serving with in Ottawa. who I had the privilege of watching in action �>n a number of occasions. I wish him well and I hope that his tenure of office will be as productive as the tenure of office that has just been completed by the Progressive Conservative Government. Honourable friends opposite laugh.

They are so -- and this is the greatest sign of weakness, those members who feel. I don't know of a legislative or a party yet, a government that has assumed office that has not made some contribution to the betterment of life in this country, and for honourable members opposite who should know better to attempt to create the impression that they and they alone are the custodians of all civil Uberties and the only people who have progressive thought is just patent nonsense.

I ask honourable members opposite to refer back, to think back to some of the legisWion that has been passed in the past ten years that has contributed to the betterment of life in this province. Well, Mr. Speaker, the Premier was critical, and I note that most of the members opposite when they rise in their places to speak, are critical of the calling of the election. MR. PAULLEY: I bet you were too. MR. JORGENSON: Well no I'm not, Mr. Speaker, no I'm not, because the very fact that honourable members opposite are in the position today is the best justification I know of for the calling of the election.

The calling of that election on the heels of the redistribution that took place in this province was not a precipitate action; it was done to insure that the changes brought about by redistribution reflected the change that did take place on June 25. -- (Interjection) -- I don't know what my honourable friends are ohing and ahing about. The fact is that in my view our system of government, the democratic system, is the greatest vehicle for reform and change that has ever been devised by man. And every once in a while the people of this province and this country have the opportunity of expressing themselves.

They were given that op portunity and they expressed themselves. I have no regrets and I don't know why my honourable

172 August 25, 1969 (MR. JORGENSON cont1d.) ...• friends opposite are so upset about it. Before I leave that subject I want to offer congratulations to one more person on the other side, the Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, who is my constituent, and I want to assure him that at any time that he can't get the co-operation of his colleagues opposite that by all means he can count on me to help him. I want to congratulate him for the position that he has achieved and I want to wish him well, and I mean that sincerely. I don't suppose that I got much of his support in the last election.

I assure you I'm not counting on him as anyone who is going to be depended upon to insure my re-election. I want to also, in the tradition of the member, offer my congratulations to the mover and the seconder of the Address and Reply. I believe both of these gentlemen acquitted themselves in a manner that is remlnlscent of the finest traditions of this House.

I know some of the agonies of standing up for the first time in the elected Chamber and the moving of the Address and Reply - I've had that honour in the House of Commons, and I thought I knew some of the feelings that went through their minds as they stood up for the first time in this Chamber. The Honourable Member for Osborne, in his opening remarks, made some comment about express ing the hope that you, Sir, w.ould be able to handle some of the more unruly members of this House. I'm sure you can. But there has been a slight change.

The unruly members of this House, if I remember correctly from my days here in February, are over there. MR. GREEN: No, you don't mean that. MR .• JORGENSON: We can all remember the thundering verbosity of the Minister of Labour who, while he was over here, never failed to take advantage of every opportunity. I wouldn't say that he tried to break every rule but he tried to bend every one a little bit, and it was rather amusing. to me, Sir •.•. MR. PAULLEY: Don't you try it. MR. JORGENSON: ..•. when he stood up in his place and complained about honourable members opposite not being in order with their questions.

Now that was, I thought, very amusing. But it was also amusing to watch him in the last few days, and more particularly today; he was usurping your role, Sir, in ruling almost every question out of order - I think a role that he should leave to yourself. He was running interference for some of the less experienced Ministers. He was answering his own questions. He reminded me of a Bugs Bunny movie that I saw many years ago. Bugs Bunny was a baseball player and he occupied every position on the field.

He'd throw the ball, then run back and catch it, and then run out in the field and field it, and this was the Minister of Labour. He was as busy as a xylophone player two bars behind. MR. IAN TURNBULL (Osborne): Did Bugs Bunny win the game? MR. JORGENSON: Then there were the stentorian predictions of gloom on the part of the Mlnlster of Flnance.when he sat on this side of the House. But what a subtle metamorphosis has taken place! What a change! I haven't heard any 40-minute NDP speeches this Session.

They used to wax on every subject under the sun for the maximum amount of time and then hope to heaven somebody would ask them a question so they could go another ten minutes. MR. PAULLEY: They were good speeches too, not the type we're listening to now. MR. JORGENSON: Now listen to him. And the Minister of Transportation who used to thunder invective at the government benches. Why, the subtle change that has taken place is unbelievable. MR. BOROWSKI: You don't give me a chance. You're on your feet all the time. MR.

JORGENSON: The Honourable Mlnlster has toned down his language considerably in this Chamber for one thing. It must be the benevolent influence of the Member for Point Douglas and his proximity to him, and I hope he continues to exercise that influence on him. He sits there today like a smiling Buddha and enjoys every moment of the salary that he's earn ing, which incidentally, Mr. Speaker, is going to be -- or at least we're going to make an effort to accommodate him on his reduction of salary when his estimates come up. I think he can expect that. MR.

GREEN: I'd like to talk about you guys but you're not here any more. MR. JORGENSON: Well I'm still here. And oh yes , don't forget the Minister of Health and Welfare, he who sat there, and the profound pronunciations that used to emanate from that chair, waxing on every subject under the sun, and the dulcet tones that we hear from him now, it's just unbelievable. One would not imagine that the same person had transferred from this side of the House over there. MR. GREEN: Hard to believe, isn't it?

August 25 , 1969 173 MR. JORGENSON: I don't lmow what brings about these changes, Sir, but it is interest ing to watch. And not only the change in their countenance, but their attitudes. Oh how they used to rail on this side. They had the answer to every problem that was ever confronted by man- when they were here. But now, what do you hear from them today, Sir ? The tired old cliche, "It's a matter of policy that will be announced in due course. " Guess who's training them, Sir. Guess who's training them. Nothing original in that.

Nothing original in any idea that has ever emanated from that side of the House that I have seen. MR. DO ERN: One month. MR. JORGENSON: One month he says. I didn't think it would take that long. When they were over here there appeared to be no doubt at all that they had everything figured out to the last detail. This is the impression I got. -- (Interjection) -- Tha t's right. Because you de ceived the people. You see, somebody let the cat out of the bag here the other day. MR. MACKLING: Sounds like in the alley now. MR. JORGENSON: The Premier let the cat out of the bag the other day.

When he was confronted with this business of signing documents he said, "Well after all, that was just an election promise. It's diff erent now. We're the government." MR. CHERNIACK: That's not true. MR. MACKLING: Point of order. He never said anything of the kind. MR. JORGENSON: That's double standard. When you're not in a position, or at least when you don•t think that you're ever going to win an election, the criteria is then to make all the foolish promises that you can. MR. CHERNIACK: That's what you did. MR.

JORGENSON: But when you have assumed the seats of the mighty, then the heavy hand of responsibility takes over. And suddenly, suddenly they become mild and meek gentlemen. MR. GR EEN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege. The Honourable the First Minister is not here, but for the record I would like to say that he never said what the honourable member attributed to him nor anything resembling that, and I think that the member should withdraw ••.• MR. JORGENSON: You see, Mr. Speaker, they don't evenlmowwhat a point of privilege is yet. MR. GREEN: That's a point of privilege and you should withdraw. MR.

JORGE NSON: My honourable friends willhaveplenty of opportunity. The silent front bench will have plenty of opportunity during the course of this debate to make their comments known. MR. GREEN: And you should withdraw your remark. MR. JORGENSON: I'm looking forward with eager anticipation to hearing the Minister of Health and Welfa re. MR. GREEN : You'll hear me. MR. JORGENSON: That could be very interesting. A MEMBER: Just tell the truth, Warner. MR.

JORGENSON: Before I move on, I should like to also say a word to the seconder of the Address and Reply, a young man who has taken his seat in this Chamber for the first time. He has youth, sincerity of purpo se, and I believe the ab111 ty to make a valuable contribution to the province, and I hope he has an opportunity to exercise that responsibillty. But I couldn't help but take note of one comment that he made during the course of his remarks.

He seemed to have the almost -- and I hate to use this word - naive belief that the election of an NDP Government was perf orce the solution to all the problems of the farmers of this country. I can assure my honourable friend that he should not hold his breath while waiting for this govern-· ment to do something that's going to get the far mers out of the mess they're in today. It will take a good many years and much more than my honourable friends opposite are going to be able to achieve.

The Premier - and I agree with him - the Premier said during the course of his remarks the other night (I was interested to hear this too) that he was a student of Doug Campbell's. I lmow that the Minister of Agriculture was never a student of Doug Campbell's because listening to him one got the impression that he had all the answers, and the number of resolutions and the number of occasions that he filled the Chamber with his words of wisdom are too many to count.

I want to remind him, too, that despite all the protestations to the contrary and the things that might have been said during the course of the election campaign, and you will remember this, Mr. Speaker; when the price of milk went up in this province last winter who was it that complained about it ? It was the NDP.

174 August 25, 1969 MR. GREEN: The NDP. Ri ght. MR . JORGENSON: That's why I said he'd remem ber. And when the price of beef went up, when the farmer, for a change, was getting a reasonable price for his product, the kind of a price that the Honourable Minister of Health and Welfare thinks he should get, he was the first one to complain about it. MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege. I never complained about the farmer getting too high a price for his beef and I would ask the honourable member to withdraw the remark. MR . JORGENSON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member is terribly sensitive on this point. But I .... MR. GREEN: Sir, when somebody says something about me that is untrue I react, and I would ask the honourable member to withdraw the remark. MR . JORGENSON: I don't think that I have offended the privilege of this House. I have made a statement and if the member objects to that statement he can say so when he gets up to speak, but it's hardly a question of privilege. MR . GREEN: Mr . Speaker, with the greatest of respect to the honourable member, I disagree.

The .honourable member said that I was the first to complain about the price of beef going up, and I say,. with great respect to the honourable member , that I did not say so. He knows that that is not the case and he should withdraw the remark. He should accept the fact that I didn't say that. And that is a question of privilege. MR . JORGENSON: Mr . Speaker, I don't want to cause any problems for you ..•• MR . SPEAKER: You made that statement ••.• MR . JORGENSON: I beg your pardon? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister denies having made that statement? MR.

JORGENSON: Well, I'm not going to make an issue of it, Mr. Speaker. If the honourable member wants me to withdraw that, I withdraw it and I withdraw it with the above qualification. But I remember last winter when the price of beef was as high as it was, and I don't think it was a bit higher than it needed to be to give the farmer a decent return, who were the people that were going around complaining about it and trying to get consumer organizations to protest and to stop buying and to boycott? We know who they were.

There have been a number of new members who have taken their place in this Chamber for the first time. Now I've been listening to all of the contributions and I want to single out two contributions that I think are worthy of some mention; two members who seem to -- and this is a unique place in that respect. You either grasp the feeling of a Legislative Chamber or you're doomed to a life of misery in this place. And I think these two members delivered their con tributions in a scholarly fashion, in a way that was intended for people speaking for the first time in this Chamber.

And I want to refer to the Honourable Member for St. Matthews and join with him in the very gracious remarks that he made about the member who preceded him in this Chamber, Mr. Steen. All members on this side of the House will find no disagreement with those comments and I want to congratulate him for making them because Mr. Steen, like other members who occupied positions in this Chamber, all made a contribution, and I think that for him to have recognized that contribution and commented on it is the mark of a true parliamentarian and I want to congratulate him .

I also want to pass the same remarks to the Honourable Member for Brandon West who delivered a speech earlier this evening that I thought was one of the better contributions that I have heard in this Chamber. Both these men, in my opinion, have futures in this Chamber and will make contributions that will be worthy of their constituencies. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the Speech from the Throne indicated that this was going to be a clean up session, and almost on every occasion when members of the government benches opposite get up to introduce a bill that had been left over from the previous session they never miss the op portunity to make some comment about this was a bill that would have been introduced had the session gone on before. They have a schizophrenic attitude here.

On the one hand they say that it is legislation left over from the previous session, and yet when it's legislation that is going to be beneficial, even in spite of the fact it was legislation that was left over from the last session, they never fail to leave the impression that this is their baby. They want to take the credit but they don't want to take the blame. Now they can't have it both ways. Either it is the session that - it's a clean-up session to deal with those items that were left over from the last session or it's not. And if the honourable members want it one way, why it's all right with

August 25, 1969 175 (MR. JORGENSON cont• d.) •••• me; if they want it the other that 's okay too, but they can't have it both ways, and I would hop e that they'd get off this kick and get down to the business that is at hand. The election is over; the people have decided; and I think it's time they stopped playing politics . And they're the ones, Mr. Speak er, who continue to rid themselves , or try to purge themselves of the stigma of being poli ticians. What did my honourable friend say ? MR. BOROWSKI: Make that speech to your leader . The election is over. MR. JORGENSON: You see, Mr.

Speak er, the Minister of Transport , the horse thief from Thompson, hasn 't grasped something yet. The members of the front bench over there, they knew what the role of the opposition was. They played it to the fullest. And this is some thing that always bothers me, the impression that people seem to get about the role of the opp osition. I'm sure my honourable friend the Minister of Health and Welfare is not one of those members who would take a case in court only if he knew that his client was innocent. His job is to defend that client whether he knows he's innocent or guilty.

That is the principle upon which our system of justice is bas ed. In this Chamber the opp osition's role is to question the government's actions, their legislation, even if it is our own legislation, and that w1l1 be done. I'm glad my honourable friend mentioned "intelligently" because that principle seems to have escaped him when he was on this side of the House. MR. DOE RN: Give me an example . MR .

JORGENSON: Now, much has been said here , Sir, about northern developm ent, and there isn't anybody in this Chamber who isn't concerned, and particularly after the trip we had over the weekend, and I want to thank the Minister of Industry and Commerce, the Premier, for the opportunity that most members of this Chamber had in visiting the north and seeing some of the development there , and seeing some of the things that are required. I think that we all came back from there with a better understanding of the needs of the northern part of this province .

But honourable members opp osite should not get the idea that they, and they alone, are the only people that ever have done anything for the north. Because they haven't done anything yet. There have been some pretty substantial developments taking place in the north as a result of the actions of the previou s government, and I don't think that it sits well with honourable members opp osite to try and create the impre ssion that they and they alone have contributed to the development of that part of the country.

Twenty-five percent of the total road budget going in the northern part of this province is a pretty hefty slice of road construc tion, and it may be slow and it may not be as much as the people up there would like , but there are still a lot of roads in the southern part of the province that have to be built yet too, and my honourable friend the Minister of Transporation is welcome to come down in the southeastern part of the province and have a look at some of the roads down there that have been there since ·th at country was occupied before the turn of the century, and I think that there is development that needs to take place in all parts of this country, not just in one area .

Now in saying this I don't want him get get the impre ssion that I, or anybody on this side , are opposed to the kind of development that can take place and should take place in the northern part of this province , because it was John Diefenbaker in 1957 who talked about northern development , and nobody would listen to him then . So if you want to talk about •.. MR. CHERNIACK: And you threw him out . MR .

JORGENSON: The Roads to Resources prog ram was one of the vehicles that the Province of Manitoba was able to use in effecting some· considerable development in road con struction in the northern part of the province , and our honourable friends opp osite who are belate dly beginning to capture the imagination of John Diefenbaker in his visions of the north, I congratulate them for it but I don't think that they should attempt to take upon them selves all of the credit for whateve r has gone on up there because there have been many things done by other governments that deserve a considerable amount of consideration.

Now, the Premier mentioned something about agriculture and I just want to touch briefly on it. I agree that insofar as the Provincial Government is concerned, the respo nsibility for agriculture is somewhat a peri phery one. There isn't the opportunity to have that influence and impact on agricultural well-being in this country as there is on the federal level .

But he men tioned restoring the Agricultural Credit Corporation to its original role, and I would suggest to him that if he wants to make a contribution to the farmers of this country he can do it in a far better way than restoring the Agricultural Credit Corp oration as a competing agency again st the federal Farm Credit Corporation . The re is no point, in my opinion , to having two lending

176 August 25, 1969 (MR. JORGENSON cont1d) agencies operating in the same field. If they want to make a contribution, then give some con sideration to subsidizing the interest rate of the federal loans so that those loans that are going to be necessary in the light of the Board of Grain Commissi oners report that was handed down a few days ago, concerning the changing of our grading standards , in the light of that report and in the light of the TED Commission Report on Agriculture, there has to be a considerable changing of the agricultural economy of this province .

It's going to take large injections of capital to do that, and I would suggest to my honourable friends opposite that they give some consideration to the suggestion that I have just made rather than the one that the Premier made a few days ago. Mr . Speak er, I thank you for your indulgence . MR . HARRY SHAFRANSKY (Radi sson): Mr . Speak er, I move, seconded by the Honour able Member for Point Douglas, that the debate be adjourned. MR . SPEAKER pre sented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. PAULLEY: Mr .

Speak er, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, that the House do now adjourn. MR . SPEAKER pre sented the motion and the House was adjourned until 2:30 Tuesday afternoon.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-1-9
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 1st hansardpdf 9.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	848580f7577c96c5e66ca150c2067378b0681e99

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