British Columbia Hansard — 20130725am Hansard v4n6

20130725am-Hansard-v4n6

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

First Session, 40th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) THE HONOURABLE LINDA REID, SPEAKER ISSN 0709- 1281 (Print) ISSN 1499-2175 (Online) Th ursday, July 25, 2013 Morning Sitting Volume 4, Number 6

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Judith Guichon, OBC First Session, 40th Parliament SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Linda Reid EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council .............................................................................................................. Hon. Christy Clark Deputy Premier and Minister of Natural Gas Development and Minister Responsible for Housing ......................Hon.

Rich Coleman Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ......................................................................................................... Hon. John Rustad Minister of Advanced Education ............................................................................................................................................ Hon. Amrik Virk Minister of Agriculture ............................................................................................................................................................... Hon.

Pat Pimm Minister of Children and Family Development ....................................................................................................... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Minister of Community, Sport and Cultural Development ........................................................................................... Hon. Coralee Oakes Minister of Education ..................................................................................................................................................... Hon.

Peter Fassbender Minister of Energy and Mines and Minister Responsible for Core Review .....................................................................Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Environment ..........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Mary Polak Minister of Finance .................................................................................................................................................. Hon.

Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations......................................................................................Hon. Steve Th omson Minister of Health ............................................................................................................................................................... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Minister of International Trade and Minister Responsible for Asia Pacifi c Strategy and Multiculturalism ..................Hon.

Teresa Wat Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training and Minister Responsible for Labour ...................................................Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of State for Tourism and Small Business ....................................................................................................Hon. Naomi Y amamoto Minister of Justice ...............................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Suzanne Anton Minister of Social Development and Social Innovation..................................................................................................... Hon. Don McRae Minister of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Services ................................................................................... Hon. Andrew Wilkinson Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure ......................................................................................................................Hon.

Todd Stone LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Offi cial Opposition ......................................................................................................................................................Adrian Dix Deputy Speaker .............................................................................................................................................................................Douglas Horne Assistant Deputy Speaker ...............................................................................................................................................................

Raj Chouhan Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ....................................................................................................................................... Marc Dalton Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ................................................................................................................................................... Craig James Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees .................................................................................................................................

Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sessional Law Clerk ...................................................................................................................................................Roderick MacArthur, QC Clerk Consultant ..............................................................................................................................................E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Sergeant-at-Arms ................................................................................................................................................................................. Gary Lenz

ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Anton, Hon. Suzanne (BC Liberal) .............................. Vancouver-Fraserview Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal).....................................................................Penticton Austin, Robin (NDP) ................................................................................ Skeena Bains, Harry (NDP) ....................................................................Surrey-Newton Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ............................................... Cariboo-Chilcotin Bennett, Hon.

Bill (BC Liberal) ...................................................Kootenay East Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) ................................................... Peace River South Bing, Dr. Doug (BC Liberal) ................................ Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Bond, Hon. Shirley (BC Liberal) ........................... Prince George–Valemount Cadieux, Hon. Stephanie (BC Liberal) ................................Surrey-Cloverdale Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) .................................Vancouver–West End Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...........................................................

Burnaby-Edmonds Coleman, Hon. Rich (BC Liberal) .......................... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Conroy, Katrine (NDP) .............................................................. Kootenay West Corrigan, Kathy (NDP) ..................................................... Burnaby–Deer Lake Dalton, Marc (BC Liberal) ............................................. Maple Ridge–Mission Darcy, Judy (NDP) ..................................................................New Westminster de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ..............................

Abbotsford West Dix, Adrian (NDP) ............................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Donaldson, Doug (NDP) ......................................................................... Stikine Eby, David (NDP) ..........................................................Vancouver–Point Grey Elmore, Mable (NDP) ................................................... Vancouver-Kensington Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ............................................................ Port Coquitlam Fassbender, Hon. Peter (BC Liberal) ...................................

Surrey-Fleetwood Fleming, Rob (NDP) .......................................................... Victoria–Swan Lake Foster, Eric (BC Liberal) .......................................................Vernon-Monashee Fraser, Scott (NDP) ............................................................Alberni–Pacifi c Rim Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ............................................. Abbotsford-Mission Hamilton, Scott (BC Liberal) ...........................................................Delta North Hammell, Sue (NDP) ....................................................

Surrey–Green Timbers Heyman, George (NDP) .................................................... Vancouver-Fairview Hogg, Gordon (BC Liberal) ............................................... Surrey–White Rock Holman, Gary (NDP) .......................................Saanich North and the Islands Horgan, John (NDP) .......................................................................

Juan de Fuca Horne, Douglas (BC Liberal) ..............................Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ....................................................Surrey-Panorama Huntington, Vicki (Ind.) ..................................................................Delta South James, Carole (NDP) .........................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ........................................Esquimalt–Royal Roads Krog, Leonard Eugene (NDP) .............................................................

Nanaimo Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ........................... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal) ........................................................................ Shuswap Lake, Hon. Dr.

Terry (BC Liberal) ....................Kamloops–North Th ompson Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) .........................................Boundary-Similkameen Lee, Richard T. (BC Liberal) ......................................................Burnaby North Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal) ........................................Kelowna–Lake Country Macdonald, Norm (NDP) ....................................Columbia River–Revelstoke McRae, Hon. Don (BC Liberal) ..................................................

Comox Valley Martin, John (BC Liberal) ..................................................................Chilliwack Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ..................................... Prince George–Mackenzie Mungall, Michelle (NDP) ..........................................................Nelson-Creston Oakes, Hon. Coralee (BC Liberal) .............................................Cariboo North Pimm, Hon. Pat (BC Liberal) ...............................................Peace River North Plecas, Darryl (BC Liberal) ....................................................Abbotsford South Polak, Hon.

Mary (BC Liberal) .............................................................. Langley Popham, Lana (NDP) ...................................................................Saanich South Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ................................................................ Surrey-Whalley Reid, Hon. Linda (BC Liberal) ..................................................Richmond East Reimer, Linda (BC Liberal) ........................................

Port Moody–Coquitlam Rice, Jennifer (NDP) ........................................................................North Coast Robinson, Selina (NDP) .............................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Routley, Bill (NDP) .................................................................. Cowichan Valley Routley, Doug (NDP) ............................................Nanaimo–North Cowichan Rustad, Hon. John (BC Liberal) ................................................

Nechako Lakes Shin, Jane Jae Kyung (NDP) ...............................................Burnaby-Lougheed Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ................................... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Simpson, Shane (NDP) ..................................................... Vancouver-Hastings Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal) ........................................ Parksville-Qualicum Stilwell, Dr. Moira (BC Liberal) ........................................ Vancouver-Langara Stone, Hon. Todd (BC Liberal) .........................

Kamloops–South Th ompson Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal) ..................................West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal) ...........................................Vancouver–False Creek Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal) ..................................... West Vancouver–Capilano Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ............................................................Fraser-Nicola Th omson, Hon. Steve (BC Liberal) .......................................Kelowna-Mission Th ornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ..........................

North Vancouver–Seymour Th roness, Laurie (BC Liberal).................................................Chilliwack-Hope Trevena, Claire (NDP) .................................................................... North Island Virk, Hon. Amrik (BC Liberal) ............................................. Surrey-Tynehead Wat, Hon. Teresa (BC Liberal) .............................................. Richmond Centre Weaver, Dr. Andrew (Ind.) .......................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Wilkinson, Hon. Andrew (BC Liberal) ........................ Vancouver-Quilchena Y amamoto, Hon.

Naomi (BC Liberal) ................ North Vancouver–Lonsdale Y ap, John (BC Liberal) ......................................................Richmond-Steveston Vacant ...................................................................................... Westside-Kelowna LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Mission ......................................................................Simon Gibson Abbotsford South ............................................................................Darryl Plecas Abbotsford West ...................................................... Hon.

Michael de Jong, QC Alberni–Pacifi c Rim .......................................................................... Scott Fraser Boundary-Similkameen ................................................................ Linda Larson Burnaby–Deer Lake ................................................................... Kathy Corrigan Burnaby-Edmonds .........................................................................

Raj Chouhan Burnaby-Lougheed .............................................................Jane Jae Kyung Shin Burnaby North .............................................................................. Richard T. Lee Cariboo-Chilcotin ........................................................................Donna Barnett Cariboo North .................................................................... Hon. Coralee Oakes Chilliwack .........................................................................................

John Martin Chilliwack-Hope ....................................................................... Laurie Th roness Columbia River–Revelstoke .................................................. Norm Macdonald Comox Valley...........................................................................Hon. Don McRae Coquitlam–Burke Mountain .....................................................Douglas Horne Coquitlam-Maillardville........................................................... Selina Robinson Cowichan Valley ................................................................................

Bill Routley Delta North ..................................................................................Scott Hamilton Delta South ...............................................................................Vicki Huntington Esquimalt–Royal Roads .....................................................Maurine Karagianis Fort Langley–Aldergrove ...................................................Hon. Rich Coleman Fraser-Nicola....................................................................................

Jackie Tegart Juan de Fuca .....................................................................................John Horgan Kamloops–North Th ompson ............................................ Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Kamloops–South Th ompson ..................................................Hon. Todd Stone Kelowna–Lake Country ............................................................... Norm Letnick Kelowna-Mission .............................................................. Hon. Steve Th omson Kootenay East .......................................................................... Hon.

Bill Bennett Kootenay West ............................................................................ Katrine Conroy Langley.......................................................................................Hon. Mary Polak Maple Ridge–Mission ..................................................................... Marc Dalton Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ........................................................ Dr. Doug Bing Nanaimo ........................................................................... Leonard Eugene Krog Nanaimo–North Cowichan .........................................................

Doug Routley Nechako Lakes ........................................................................ Hon. John Rustad Nelson-Creston ........................................................................Michelle Mungall New Westminster ............................................................................... Judy Darcy North Coast......................................................................................Jennifer Rice North Island .................................................................................. Claire Trevena North Vancouver–Lonsdale ........................................Hon.

Naomi Y amamoto North Vancouver–Seymour ................................................. Jane Th ornthwaite Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...................................................... Dr. Andrew Weaver Parksville-Qualicum .................................................................Michelle Stilwell Peace River North ...................................................................... Hon. Pat Pimm Peace River South ............................................................................Mike Bernier Penticton............................................................................................

Dan Ashton Port Coquitlam ..........................................................................Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Coquitlam ................................................................Linda Reimer Powell River–Sunshine Coast ................................................. Nicholas Simons Prince George–Mackenzie ............................................................. Mike Morris Prince George–Valemount ................................................... Hon. Shirley Bond Richmond Centre ......................................................................Hon.

Teresa Wat Richmond East ..........................................................................Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ..............................................................................John Y ap Saanich North and the Islands .................................................... Gary Holman Saanich South ................................................................................

Lana Popham Shuswap ................................................................................................Greg Kyllo Skeena .............................................................................................. Robin Austin Stikine ....................................................................................... Doug Donaldson Surrey-Cloverdale ....................................................... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Surrey-Fleetwood ........................................................... Hon.

Peter Fassbender Surrey–Green Timbers .................................................................. Sue Hammell Surrey-Newton ................................................................................. Harry Bains Surrey-Panorama ........................................................................... Marvin Hunt Surrey-Tynehead ......................................................................Hon. Amrik Virk Surrey-Whalley..............................................................................

Bruce Ralston Surrey–White Rock ....................................................................... Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Fairview ..................................................................George Heyman Vancouver–False Creek ................................................................... Sam Sullivan Vancouver-Fraserview ......................................................Hon.

Suzanne Anton Vancouver-Hastings ....................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-Kensington .................................................................Mable Elmore Vancouver-Kingsway..........................................................................Adrian Dix Vancouver-Langara .................................................................Dr. Moira Stilwell Vancouver–Mount Pleasant .........................................

Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey .........................................................................David Eby Vancouver-Quilchena ................................................ Hon. Andrew Wilkinson Vancouver–West End ...............................................

Spencer Chandra Herbert Vernon-Monashee ...............................................................................Eric Foster Victoria–Beacon Hill .......................................................................Carole James Victoria–Swan Lake.........................................................................Rob Fleming West Vancouver–Capilano .............................................................

Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ..........................................................Jordan Sturdy Westside-Kelowna ......................................................................................Vacant Party Standings: BC Liberal 48; New Democratic 34; Independent 2; Vacant 1

CONTENTS Th ursday, July 25, 2013 Morning Sitting Page Orders of the Day Committee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 1095 Estimates: Ministry of Health (continued) Hon. T. Lake J. Darcy S. Hammell S. Robinson M. Elmore J. Kwan V .

Huntington Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 1105 Estimates: Ministry of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation Hon. J. Rustad D. Donaldson S. Fraser Proceedings in the Birch Room Committee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 1115 Estimates: Ministry of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Services Hon.

A. Wilkinson G. Heyman

THURSDAY , JULY 25, 2013 Th e House met at 10:02 a.m. [Madame Speaker in the chair.] Prayers. Orders of the Day Hon. T. Lake: We now call Committee of Supply: in

Section B, in this chamber, the estimates for the Ministry of Health; in the Douglas Fir Committee Room,

Section A, the estimates of the Ministry of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation; and in

Section C, the estimates of the Ministry of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Services. Committee of Supply ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF HEALTH (continued) Th e House in Committee of Supply (Section B); R. Chouhan in the chair. Th e committee met at 10:05 a.m. On Vote 28: ministry operations, $16,403,475,000 (continued). Hon. T. Lake: I'm pleased to be here today to resume the estimate debates for the Ministry of Health and again want to thank the staff at the Ministry of Health, particu- larly those who are here with me today.

I have my dep- uty minister, Steve Brown, assistant deputy ministers Manjit Sidhu and Barbara Korabeck. We also have from the ministry helping us out today Ann Marr and Nick Grant. Th ere will be others that come through and others that are in the background eagerly anticipating fi nding the answers to the questions from the members opposite. If I may take the opportunity to thank the members opposite for the past couple of days of discussion and questions and the very collegial way in which we've been able to conduct the estimates — thank you. J. Darcy: Th ank you to the minister for those com- ments.

And since I don't know if I'll have a chance at the end of estimates today to say so, let me also thank the minister and his staff for working so hard to answer our questions. I see that there are even more binders that have been brought in today than previously. I don't know what that means. I don't know if you have any idea what other questions we have in store, but we certainly appre- ciate the diligence. I have just one question, and then I'm going to turn to our critic for mental health and addictions, the member for Surrey–Green Timbers. I want to come back on one question related to capital commitments.

We've asked several questions on Tuesday and then several questions again Wednesday of the minister about capital commitments, coming back yesterday to the need for openness and transparency and why cer- tain things appear in the service plan and others do not. Aft er repeated questions about that, and in particular about Burnaby Hospital, we were told yesterday that for Burnaby Hospital, the funding — or maybe it was the day before: "Y es, it is in the budget." As the minister knows, I came back yesterday and said: "We scoured the budget, couldn't fi nd it.

Where is it?" Th e minister said that it's on page 175 under capital funding, Vote 48, a

section that has Minister of Advanced Education and Minister of Education, Minister of Health and Minister of Natural Gas Development, with a total amount of $404.474 million. My question to the minister is twofold. I'd like to ask a specifi c question about the reduction from the year before, when it was $437 million. But my fundamental question is: will the minister please provide a breakdown of what is included in that, in the interest of openness and transparency? [1010] Hon. T.

Lake: Vote 48, capital funding — this is the funding that is provided to various health authorities for health facilities, for capital. That could be major equipment. It could be renovations to the existing infra- structure. We see there has been a reduction in $23.364 million from '12-13 to '13-14. I'm told that is because it really depends on what the stage is and what the needs are of all the diff erent health authorities and the diff er- ent structures. Currently there are over 300 projects that fall into that category of sort of routine investment in upkeep and up- grading.

It will vary from year to year, and it really just depends on where those diff erent projects are in their construction, their payment. One year it may be higher, and one year it may be lower, depending on the basket of 300 diff erent capital projects that are being undertaken. Again, we do list the major capital projects, those over $50 million, in the budget document separately. Th is is more of an aggregate of the smaller capital projects that are undertaken on a somewhat routine basis. J. Darcy: I appreciate the answer, but perhaps I could strongly encourage…. I mean, $49.99 million is an awful lot of money.

I would strongly encourage the minister to look at whether projects over some amount that is sig- nifi cantly less than $49.9 million should be considered for disclosure. I don't want to use language that has been used in other forums about quick wins or about things being used for 1095

British Columbia Debates1096 Thursday, July 25, 2013 political purposes, although we did have some back-and- forth about whether some commitments during the elec- tion which were for less than $50 million were made for political purposes. It seems to me, in the interests of transparency and of British Columbians accepting that, yes, there's room for fl exibility and, yes, there are things that arise that are unforeseen that need to be paid for, that there appear to be some signifi cant projects funded for that, that should both be accounted for to the public and should appear in the service plan. Interjection. J.

Darcy: Well, it was encouraging, but I will ask one more time. Will the minister provide the list? [1015] Hon. T. Lake: I think the member's point is: giving the greatest amount of transparency to what is going on in terms of capital reinvestment in the facilities through- out the health authority. While I agree with the concept, I think there are some practical barriers to that. Th ere's a myriad of diff erent projects, and some of them may be in the planning stage. Some of them will not move for- ward for one reason or another, yet they would still ap- pear under that list. It's very fl uid.

A health authority may have, let's say, a redesign or a renovation of their diag nostic imaging suite. Th at may be a $2 million project and, for one reason or another, something else comes up that was unexpected that needs to become more of a priority, and so that fund may go over to that — a sterilization issue or something like that. Th e health authorities discuss all of these projects with their regional hospital boards throughout most of the province, but there are procurement issues.

Th ere is the concern, I believe, on the part of health authorities that if the list were published — it is changing all the time — there would be confusion created if the public were to see something on the list in one quarter and then not in another quarter, because of that changing dynamic of priorities as challenges occur in capital. I think we've sort of struck the balance in ensuring that the public is aware of the major projects ongoing.

I personally don't have any ideological objection to hav- ing all of that information out there, but I think in some cases it causes confusion because it's so fl uid and it will change from quarter to quarter. I think it may not be the best information to have out there because of the fl uid- ity that occurs. J. Darcy: I think a bigger challenge is to have over $0.4 billion with no breakdown in the public domain what- soever. I would suggest that you can have categories of things that have more fl uidity to them, smaller projects versus bigger projects, but we're talking about $0.414 bil- lion, Minister.

I think the public would have no diffi culty…. If the public were aware that there is no accountability or trans- parency for a sum that big, I think the problem we would face is far more than confusion. I encourage the minister once again to make that list public. S. Hammell: I'd just like to follow up for a minute on this line of questioning. Aft er all, it is the public's money, and the public does see the consequence of the decision at some point because the money goes into something and makes reality, a decision. It seems to me that you're selling the public a little bit short. It is their money.

Th ey should be able to see where those moneys are potential- ly being spent and, in fact, comment if necessary. So I would ask the minister if he would make that list public. [1020] Hon. T. Lake: As mentioned, most of these projects are approved by the regional hospital districts. Having sat on the hospital district in the Th ompson-Nicola re- gion, I can tell you that these smaller capital projects are brought forward in the public domain.

So there is an ability throughout the province, through public meet- ings and meetings of boards that make the decisions on the relatively small capital projects — as I mentioned, over 300 of these. And a lot of that does goes through a public discussion. What I'm saying is we don't keep a centralized list of every project on that list of 300 diff erent projects because they tend to be very fl uid. Th ey'll move around. Th ey'll change as the priorities occur.

Sometimes some of those priorities are unexpected — when you have a piece of equipment that breaks down, or let's say an HV AC system that is all of a sudden not performing properly. I think there is a lot of transparency there at the regional level and — on the major items, certainly — a lot of transpar- ency at the provincial level. S. Hammell: I'd like to shift the questions just quickly back to Surrey for just a minute, and then we'll move on to mental health. We have a new facility that's been open for a number of years called the Jim Pattison Centre.

Can the minis- ter tell me if that facility is now fully operational? It did get a slow start, and people were expecting it to be oper- ational fairly soon. I would also ask, on that same line of questioning: when the new Surrey emergency ward, which is to open this fall, and the critical care tower — when will people see those to be up and fully operational? Hon. T. Lake: Th e member attended the opening of the Jim Pattison Centre, and it is fully functional at the moment. Th e emergency department. I know the member was

British Columbia DebatesThursday, July 25, 2013 1097 there for the preview, I believe about a week ago, and it is scheduled to be fully operational towards the end of September. Th e patient care tower is expected to be fully constructed in the spring of 2014. S. Hammell: I would ask the question…. I don't want to be confusing or unclear. I didn't ask when it would be completed. Th e question is really around operations. When will it be operational? When will it have the money it needs to operate, not the money it needs to construct? Hon. T.

Lake: We anticipate that it will be fully func- tional in the spring of 2014. Having said that, we do provide funds up front before then, for preparing for that opening — one-time funds for training, movement of equipment and things like that. Having said that, as anyone who has ever done a renovation or construction knows, sometimes things don't go quite according to plan. So I can't give the member an exact date that it will be fully functional.

I wouldn't want to say that by May 15, 2014, everything will be 100 percent operational, but it is our sincere hope that in the spring of 2014 the tower will be fully constructed and operational. [1025] S. Hammell: Th ank you, Minister. I'm not sure you know, but I would just mention that the hospital is in my constituency. So I do attend openings, and I think what has been done there is quite remarkable. I have no prob- lem in saying that. It was a long time coming. I have no trouble saying that either.

But the hospital, especially — and we'll move to this — the separation in terms of the emergency ward from the mental health area, I think, will make things a lot easier for everyone involved. I ap- plaud the building, and I'm very pleased to see it opening. I do want to switch over to mental health now, and I do want to open this discussion with just a bit of background or comments from an

article that I can quote, with the courtesy of Kevin Diakiw from the Surrey Leader . He puts mental health in a little bit of a context. I'm going to read much of his comment, because I think it does relate so much to what we're doing now. He said: "In 1841 a 39-year-old teacher walked into a Massachusetts jail and volunteered to teach English. Her subsequent discovery in that institution changed her life — and eventually changed the lives of…others.

"When Dorothea Dix asked authorities why the mentally ill were housed alongside hardened criminals in unheated, unfi nished and foul-smelling cells, she was told 'the insane don't feel the cold.'" Th is is 1841. "Th e war on the poor treatment of people with mental illness was on for the daughter of this Methodist-Baptist preacher. Dix took the matter through the courts, and aft er several battles, won her case — forcing the institution to provide…better living condi- tions for the mentally ill. She took on several other jails, waging and winning the same battle.

"Her work created a new awareness around mental illness and eventually spawned the creation of mental asylums — facilities with pastoral settings where people could get treatment." Th ey spread throughout the United States. Th ey went into eastern Canada and, of course, we know our in- stitution, which was started in 1913, Essondale, which morphed into Riverview. We had that institution for al- most a century. It was felt — at that time — that well-run facilities could dramatically improve the rate, the cures, around mental illness. Th ere was lots of controversy, which we all know. Th ere were lobotomies.

Th ere were other therapies, electromagnetic therapies. In the 1970s, with the onset of psychotics, in terms of drugs, it was felt that the mentally ill would be better served in the community. Th at's a little bit of background to where we get to to- day, where a huge number of the people in the penal in- stitutions, the jails, and on the streets, are the mentally ill. When we had Essondale, or Riverview, we had 4,630 beds that were supported by the government in terms of housing the mentally ill. Th ose people are no longer there, and so the question, of course, becomes: where are they?

And I would ask the minister if he can tell me how many of the mentally ill are in group homes, assisted-living ar- rangements or out on the streets? [1030] Hon. T. Lake: To the member: thank you for that over- view. I think it does provide some perspective on how so- ciety has changed in the way we deal with those in society with mental health and substance use challenges. Th is government has been here in power since 2001.

At that time, I'm told, there were about 800 patients that were still housed at a facility such as Riverview, and since that time they have been moved into the community with group home situations. Th ese are homelike situations. I have, in fact, had the opportunity to visit some, as my sis- ter actually worked for one of these care homes. In fact, you don't know where they are, oft en. Th ey're part of the community and just integrated into the com- munity.

Th ese British Columbians now have the oppor- tunity to have a fulfi lled life and to lead a much more dignifi ed life than the one that the member so well de- scribed. I can say that throughout the province there are 828 beds that are allocated to these community-based set- tings. Th ere are 55 societies that manage those, and $137 million of capital was put into these facilities. Northern Health has 65; Interior Health, 150; Vancouver Island Health Authority, 131; Fraser Health, 267, Vancouver Coastal, 215.

Th at, of course, is in addition to some of the other facilities that have been constructed and will be con- structed, including the Hillside psychiatric facility in Kamloops, the HOpe facility that is being constructed in North Vancouver. A lot of capital has gone into those particular facilities, as well as the group home facilities that I mentioned earlier. So we continue to invest. It is diffi cult. Th ere are some

British Columbia Debates1098 Thursday, July 25, 2013 people who are on the street with mental health chal- lenges and dual diagnoses — with an addiction challenge as well.

Eff orts are made to reach out to those people. [1035] We had the Kamloops integration project, for instance, when I served as mayor of the city, where the AIDS Society of Kamloops, a great social innovation organiz- ation in our city, would go and try to fi nd those vulner- able British Columbians that were on the street and try to fi nd the appropriate social connections they needed in terms of social services from the province and also fa- cilities where they could be homed. So there's been a lot that's gone on, but since….

I think the member is making the point that when that old mod- el — of institutionalizing and warehousing people with mental challenges — was broken down fi nally, there were people that were housed in the community. Subsequently, some people have ended up on the street and continue to end up on the street. Th ose are very diffi cult cases, because you can't take someone off the street and force them into a facility against their will. Y ou have to try to work with them, try to connect them with the services they need, and try to persuade them that that will help them get better.

It's a diffi cult and daunting task, having spoken with many of the people who work in that community, but it's some- thing we continue to put great eff orts into. S. Hammell: Th ank you, Minister. I'm not asking these questions to be combative. I'm just trying to fi gure out where we're at here. I'll ask you two other questions, because you have mentioned the homeless, and I would also like to take that question into the penal system. What percentage of the people on the streets are homeless? Well, let's stick to: what percentage of homeless are mentally ill or dual diagnosed?

And what percentage of the mentally ill oc- cupy the jail system? Hon. T. Lake: Absolutely, I think this is a great dis- cussion to have. I don't take it as combative. I take it as outlining for members of the House and for the general public what a challenge this area is. Th e member points to something that is defi nitely true, that individuals with mental health and substance use are overrepresented. Th ey're overrepresented in areas of emergency care, hospital admissions, unemployment, within correctional facilities, and they need an integrated and collaborative response.

In fact, over 50 percent of adults in contact with the criminal justice system have been diagnosed with a men- tal illness and/or a substance use disorder. So in our ten- year plan to address mental health and substance use issues in B.C., called Healthy Minds, Healthy People, it includes an action to develop guidelines, service proto- cols and tools to ensure that adults with a mental illness and/or problematic use problem who are in contact with the criminal justice system have access to appropriate transition and support services.

We have a cross-ministry deputies team that is bring- ing this up in terms of how we all work together to try to implement strategies that do cross diff erent ministries to try to reach out and help this very complex part of our population. As the member is very aware, fetal alcohol spectrum disorder is a big part of this, and there are many ongoing eff orts, in terms of prevention and in terms of identifi ca- tion and treatment, to try to reduce the number of the victims of FASD. [1040] S.

Hammell: If we think about those numbers, there are 828 beds, and there were at one time 4,638 people in our institutions in British Columbia. And that was at least quite a number of years ago. Th at suggests that there are a lot of people somewhere else who have mental illness. Y ou have identifi ed that 50 percent of them meet and are treated through the justice system. And a number of others are homeless. So there must be a huge cost to the justice system for dealing with the mentally ill. And in some ways, what we have done has gone back to the fu- ture. We had people in jails in 1841.

We created an asy- lum system. We have eliminated the asylum system and now have people again in jails — and at a cost. I'll ask a more general question. What is the estimat- ed cost to the public system or to the system in general from mental illness? Hon. T. Lake: I just want to clarify some of the re- sponses earlier. When we became government in 2001, there were 830 residents of Riverview at that time. Th ey were moved into the community beds that I mentioned earlier. However, those aren't the only community beds we have.

We have a total of 12,425 beds that are for men- tal health and substance-use management. Th ose are throughout the province. Th at has been quite an increase. In fact, the number of adult community mental beds in B.C. has increased 95 percent since 2001, going from 4,940 to 9,654. Th e number of community substance- use beds has increased by 196 percent, with 1,715 new beds since 2003. We've made great strides, but as the member rightly points out, we still have people with mental health and substance-use challenges that come into contact with the criminal justice system.

I don't have a fi gure as to how much it costs society, but I can only presume that it is a lot of money. We are trying through the measures that I have men- tioned, with the vast expansion of beds over the last 12 years and with outreach programs. Working with social agencies and health authorities, we have tried our very

British Columbia DebatesThursday, July 25, 2013 1099 best to reduce the number of people with mental health or substance-use issues from coming into contact with the justice system. It remains a problem. I think this is one of those that you'll never solve completely. All you can try to do is to make incremental change and reach towards that goal of keeping people out of the justice system and in the proper care, where they can have their mental health and substance-use issues dealt with. [1045] S.

Hammell: Minister, there has been a study that has suggested that just the fact that people have mental illness costs society $50 billion a year. In British Columbia that would be $6.6 billion, as this study has indicated. So $20 billion of that is a direct cost to the business community or to the employers of the province. Have you been lobbied by the business commun- ity to do more around this issue? Th e Mental Health Commission of Canada, along with two other organiza- tions, produced the national standard of care for psycho- logical health and safety.

Has that been brought forward to WorkSafe B.C. so that is integrated, also, into their work? Hon. T. Lake: Have I been lobbied by business groups? I think it's safe to say that anyone that's been in govern- ment, whether at the local level or at the provincial level, hears from business and particularly chambers of com- merce about the issue of mental health and substance use and how it impacts workplaces and impacts their businesses. Certainly, as a mayor, we dealt with this a lot, which is why I was very familiar with some of the pro- grams that were being used to try to assist those that had those challenges.

I've just been informed that one of our assistant deputy ministers, in fact, sits on the Mental Health Commission of Canada board that the member refers to. In fact, there was a report that came out about a month ago. Certainly, we will take great interest in that, but that report aligns very closely with our Healthy Minds, Healthy People ten-year plan to combat mental health and substance- use challenges. In fact, the plan includes a healthy work- place strategy.

We very much agree with the member and with the national commission that workplace strategies to iden- tify and assist those with the challenges that we've been discussing will be implemented as part of our strategy. [1050] S. Hammell: Obviously, mental illness is a huge chal- lenge, and it claims more of a person's life than probably many other diseases. My question to the minister would be: what do we spend per capita on the mental health portion of your portfolio? Hon. T.

Lake: Th e province, just in the Health budget alone, spends $1.4 billion per year on mental health and substance use — addictions, essentially. So $1.4 billion — and we have 4.5 million people. Now, obviously, not all of them would be recipients of that funding. I would point out that that's a 63 percent increase since 2001, and it's only, of course, part of the money that government at- tributes to the problem.

Th e Minister Responsible for Housing has a large por- tion of his budget that goes into the housing component, and there would be the Minister of Social Development and the Minister of Children and Families. All would have some funding that would be allocated towards men- tal health and addiction issues. S. Hammell: It's good to know that you have a deputy minister on the Mental Health Commission of Canada. Th at's, I'm sure, a great plus for us. Th e chair of the Mental Health Commission of Canada said that Canada spends considerably less on mental health than several other comparable countries.

For every public health dollar, 7 percent goes to mental health. Th is is far below the 10 percent and 11 percent of public spending in countries such as New Zealand and Britain, just as an example. Th e Mental Health Commission has called for Canada to move that number, in general, up to 9 percent from 7 percent over the next ten years. Has our province agreed to do that? [1055] Hon. T. Lake: The Mental Health Commission of Canada has recognized British Columbia as being a lead- er in terms of the percentage of dollars spent on men- tal health and substance use issues compared to the rest of Canada.

I'm told that when you aggregate all of the money that we do spend, whether it's in operations, phar- macological services, MSP services or the capital projects, we are at about 8.6 percent, so getting very close to the number that the member mentions as a goal. We are doing better and have been recognized as do- ing better than most other jurisdictions in Canada. With our ten-year mental health plan we continue to make those investments. We have a commitment to put in 500 more beds to help with substance-abuse and mental health problems. S.

Hammell: Minister, if you can come up with a num- ber like 8.6 percent, I'm sure you know precisely how you got to that number. Could you make available to me the amount of money that has been spent across ministries on this issue? [D. Horne in the chair.] Hon. T. Lake: I'm told that it is on the website of the national Mental Health Commission board.

British Columbia Debates1100 Thursday, July 25, 2013 S. Hammell: Th e chair of the national commission, again, said, "In a world in which prosperity depends in- creasingly on brain power and on a productive and dy- namic workforce, Canada can't aff ord not to invest in the future mental health" of its population. It does lead back, for me, to the issues around jus- tice, the criminal justice system. All of us either know or have heard of some absolutely tragic situations where the mentally ill were incarcerated rather than dealt with in community settings or appropriate settings.

All of us, I am sure, remember Ashley Smith, whose only crime was to be mentally ill and who ended up dying in a cor- rections facility. [1100] Closer to home we have Colette Salemink. Her house was burned by her son, who was on a day pass from Riverview. So I'd ask fi rst…. I have a couple of questions, but one is to the minister. Th ere are people with mental illness who are a threat to themselves and to society. How are they currently housed, and where are they? Hon. T.

Lake: Th e member began her comments by describing the historical aspects of dealing with mental illness in society, where we've moved from a situation in which people with mental health challenges were institu- tionalized, essentially imprisoned, alongside dangerous off enders, in many cases. She talked about the evolution into the community care model. Now we come to that very diffi cult part of the popula- tion that experiences complex and severe mental health and/or substance-use problems. Th ey require a more in- tensive approach, so there are diff erent approaches.

We have assertive community treatment and intensive case management services. Th ese provide community- based and intensive services to people with those com- plex needs, including those who are homeless. Currently we have ten of these assertive community treatment teams across the province, and three more are in de- velopment. Seven intensive case management teams are in development. We also have psychiatric emergency services and community-based crisis response services, which include 24-7 crisis lines.

We have mobile units, crisis stabilization beds, psychiatric liaison services and integrated teams in emergency departments. Acute in-patient and tertiary mental health services include designated beds, which provide psychiatric as- sessment, diagnosis, treatment, stabilization and short- term rehabilitation. In 2012 there were just under 1,500 acute and tertiary beds, and then we have 190 forensic psychiatric beds. I mentioned the Hillside Psychiatric Centre in Kamloops. Th is is where people with very complex needs would reside — those who could prove harmful to them- selves or others.

In fact, we in the House have discussed such a case. Th en there are some at the Riverview facility, as well, that would fi t into that — at high risk of causing harm to themselves or others. Th at's a very diffi cult segment of the population to deal with. We continue to try to use community-based services as much as possible, knowing that we need to be very diligent and have the resources necessary to ensure that the general public is kept safe and that the person involved is kept safe as well. [1105] S. Hammell: To the minister, in just trying to distill that answer down….

I appreciate you outlining the num- ber of diff erent outreach services you have that are also attached to hospitals and to other places of care. But my question is very specifi c. For those people who are of a danger to themselves and to others, such as what hap- pened in Coquitlam — and I understand that this is talking about reinstitutionalizing, to some extent — are there a number of places throughout the province where people who cannot safely live outside in society can go for a long period of time? Hon. T.

Lake: Th e Riverview redevelopment is de- signed for, I think, the type of client that the member is discussing or referring. Th ese are highly complex mental health disorders where, in many cases, under the Mental Health Act they have been involuntarily placed into care. Th ere are 838 of those tertiary-level positions available at the Riverview development. S. Hammell: Th e coroner's inquest into this death made three recommendations. I can read all three of them out for you, or I can just give you a straight-up question of: have these three recommendations been implemented?

Did you want me to read them, or are you aware of them? Th e Chair: Th rough the Chair, Member, please. Hon. T. Lake: Which coroner's report? S. Hammell: Sorry, it was the coroner's report into the death of Colette Salemink. Hon. T. Lake: Th e member mentioned three recom- mendations. Th ere are a number here — larger than three — so perhaps we will need to be specifi c about which recommendations the member refers to. [1110] S. Hammell: I'll just do the third one.

The recom- mendation also included pairing police with psychiatric nurses for a trial period to deal with patients who have violated the conditions of their extended leave from men- tal health facilities. Th is is the one I'm trying to get to. It

British Columbia DebatesThursday, July 25, 2013 1101 also recommends police be given the power to tempor- arily revoke extended leaves when conditions are broken. Hon. T. Lake: I want to make sure that we're on the right track here. Th is was recommendation No. 7, and it was to the B.C. Ministers of Justice and Health. Th is was about having a provincial program consisting of a strike force, if you like, of fi ve cars positioned strategic- ally throughout the area, each car to include one police offi cer and one psychiatric nurse. I just would like a sig- nal. Is that the one we're talking about? Okay.

Th ank you, hon. Member. Th e recommendation was considered. A response is that mobile crisis response services, such as Car 67, re- ferred to in the recommendation, are most eff ective and effi cient when provided within a limited catchment area and involve police and mental health staff from the lo- cal community. Th at model of crisis response is available in some com- munities — I mentioned a similar model in my com- munity of Kamloops — while in others, mental health mobile response teams exist and provide care in partner- ship with the police. All health authorities have mental health crisis services.

We feel that this is being captured in a number of dif- ferent ways around the province, and the police services and mental health staff continue to work closely together to try to integrate those services. S. Hammell: I have a number of people here who are wanting to ask specifi c questions, so I'll fi rst ask the member for Coquitlam-Maillardville to speak, because she has to leave. S. Robinson: I have a question for the Minister of Health that has to do with Riverview lands. In particu- lar, we heard from the Minister for Housing that he sees this as an important piece for looking at future health care issues.

He mentioned in question period a number of weeks ago that Riverview is seen as "a long-term asset for British Columbia — for health care, mental health, addictions and other opportunities to help people in B.C." [1115] I'd like to ask the minister: what will this ministry be doing with Riverview in terms of mental health and ad- dictions for the province of B.C.? Hon. T. Lake: Th e Riverview lands are still held by the Crown, and the Minister of Citizens' Services would be the minister responsible for those lands. Of course, the Minister Responsible for Housing, who made the state- ment, would….

Th at, I believe, is a vision statement that he has. We have not done any sort of strategizing at any detailed level as to what that would look like, but it cer- tainly will be the discussion in future years. M. Elmore: A question also continuing on mental health. It's with regards to the role of community-based mental health services. Y ou outlined the continuum of care that's off ered through institutionalization, hospi- talization, out-patient care, group homes.

Can you talk about the role that community-based mental health ser- vices play within that continuum and, also, the budget allocation to those services? Hon. T. Lake: We canvassed this a bit earlier. Just for the member's benefi t, we have spent almost $1.4 billion on mental health and substance-use services around the province. Of course, that's broken down into diff erent areas. Th e community-based mental health and addic- tions services total is just over $618 million. M.

Elmore: Just continuing, I also had a question in terms of the value and role of community-based mental health services — certainly understanding the shift in terms away from institutionalization and encouraging individuals who have mental health challenges to be in- tegrated into the community and to be able to live pro- ductive and fulfi lling lives. [1120] Th ere have been numerous studies, certainly, and I would presume that it's integrated in terms of the ap- proach for the provision of mental health services here in British Columbia. My understanding, speaking with a number of groups….

In particular, I have a specifi c question around the Art Studios, which provides an art-based therapy — a very eff ective program — in Vancouver-Kensington. Its art-based therapy has been proven to be very eff ective in supporting individuals who have experienced quite severe mental health issues, providing support for them and their families to allow them a number of benefi ts that have been shown to assist with their recovery, to have them integrated into the community, to provide services that are accessible to them. It's cost-effective.

In ensuring that they access the community-based program, it has minimized hospital stays. Oft en that's where the higher costs are incurred. Once these individuals, when they're managing their mental health illnesses, are able to access this program and not be forced to make hospital stays, that's also a benefi t. Certainly, there's a benefi t in cost to the system. Th ere's a benefi t in individual care. Th ere's also the benefi t to their friends and families of ensuring that their loved ones are cared for and able to function more fully in so- ciety.

In terms of not only the value and benefi t, gener- ally, of community-based health care services but of the eff ectiveness, this Art Studios program has been nation- ally recognized as a very unique program, an eff ective peer-based program. My question is: based on these strengths of these pro-

British Columbia Debates1102 Thursday, July 25, 2013 grams, will the minister reinstate funding for the Art Studios? Hon. T. Lake: I mentioned the dramatic increase in spending on mental health and substance use — a 58-percent increase over the last 12 years. Each individ- ual health authority makes decisions about how to best utilize the resources necessary. Th is was a decision by Vancouver Coastal Health. Th at is certainly their decision, as to the best ways of providing services to the community that needs mental health and substance-use supports.

I understand there is a private donor that has come forward to keep this program go- ing. Th at is something we can certainly commend, but we have, as I mentioned, dramatically increased the amount of money we spend on this complex issue. Health author- ities do the work in terms of deciding and implementing programs that they feel make the most eff ective use, get- ting the best outcomes for their clients. J. Kwan: Could the minister please tell me: what is the average cost of a psychiatric bed? [1125] Hon. T. Lake: It would depend. Th e costs per day, per patient, would depend on the level of care necessary.

We could be talking about a forensic psychiatric facility like the Hillside centre in Kamloops where there would be perhaps a higher cost per day versus other psychiatric wards and hospitals where there would be lower. Th e ward rate for hospitals generally runs between $900 and $1,200 a day, not counting ICU, of course, so it would be in that general range. J. Kwan: As a follow-up, I'm wondering how many beds there are in the province of British Columbia. Hon. T. Lake: We had this discussion earlier, but I'm happy to try and fi nd the numbers once again.

It depends, again, on the types of beds we're talking about. When you talk about mental health and substance- use beds throughout the province…. Th ose would be a range of community; residential care; family care homes; crisis residential care, which is short stay; supported housing; youth residential treatment; adult detox; youth detox; supported housing for group homes; dedicated sites. With all of those brought together, there are 12,424. When we talk about forensic psychiatric beds, I believe the number was 190. J. Kwan: Well, I appreciate that information.

As it was raised with the minister during question per- iod, the Access Community through English program — known as the ACE program — as the minister knows, is being eliminated. In fact, August 7 will be the last day, when the doors will be shut for this program. Th e staff has already been laid off for this program. Annually there are about 80 to 100 students who go through the pro- gram. Th ese are primarily people who, obviously, have English as a second language and people with severe mental illness.

Th e Vancouver Coastal Health Authority actually did a review of this program, and their conclusion states: "Mental health consumers cope with considerable prejudice in our society and experience multiple barriers to accessing health care and other services. When they do not have English language skills, it becomes even more diffi cult for them to communicate their health care needs and to fi nd ways to feel connected to the community around them.

"Th e ACE program provides a unique and much-needed service and opportunity for mental health consumers" — who want to learn English; this is a very valuable, important service provid- ing an opportunity for non-English speakers — "who might not otherwise be able to participate in ESL classes." Th is is the conclusion of Vancouver Coastal Health on the ACE program. [1130] Th at said, it is now the case that the ACE program is no longer considered a core program, and it is being eliminated. Y ou have about 80 to 100 students who go through the program each year, many of them with se- vere mental illness.

Based on the information that I have, this program costs about $180,000 to run. In supporting the 80 to 100 students, you're looking at about a little over $2,000 or $2,250, if it's on the count of 80. I'll go with the lower count, just to be generous around the estimation here. Th at's about $2,250 per student a year. In the event that a student is not able to access this pro- gram and the mental health condition worsens, it then results in them having to go to hospital, to be hospital- ized. Th e minister just advised that the cost, on average, is somewhere between $900 and $1,200, in that range.

Th at is to say that if one person suff ers a setback and has to be hospitalized two nights — right? — that would be the cost of this program on that person. So on a cost- eff ectiveness basis, this program makes sense. I have a stack of letters, documentation, reports from doctors, from various students who have gone through the program, talking about the value of that program for those students. One letter actually says, "I need ACE just like I need my daily medication. I cannot survive without it. ACE is my medication" — as an example. Another woman had gone through huge traumas in her life.

She told me personally that to not be able to ac- cess this program makes her feel empty. Prior to the pro- gram, when she had her breakdown aft er having lost her father, she used to walk in her room in circles all day long. Th at's what she did. Th en her doctor sent her and referred her to a number of programs. ACE was one of them. Th en over time she learned English and began to open up. She now volunteers for the health authority, helping other people with disabilities and seniors. She's not yet work- ing on a paid basis, but she's made signifi cant progress.

British Columbia DebatesThursday, July 25, 2013 1103 Without this program, I think we can imagine what that impact might be like for her. I know that the gov- ernment would like to say, and I saw it on the public re- cord, that they could be referred elsewhere. Just so that the minister knows in terms of the referral, there are less than a handful of people who have been referred to a dif- ferent program. None of the programs that they've been referred to provide for mental health support as they're learning English as a second language.

Many of their students have gone to other programs and have failed in those programs. It's not to say that those organizations who off er the programs are defi cient in providing ESL learning. Th e problem is that they don't have the mental health support and the training to pro- vide that kind of support for this population. Th is is one of a kind. It is an award-winning program. Th ere is no other like it in the entire country, let alone in British Columbia. For today's purpose, I want to urge the minister to please review the program.

If he would like, I could set up meetings for him to meet with the students there to review this program. Th is is an eff ective program, and it is eff ective on two counts — eff ective for the people who are using it on a human level and eff ective on a cost level. I really want to urge the minister to take a second look at this. It's $180,000. I think we can aff ord to do this, and it will save the system money if we can save this program. I'll leave that with the minister.

If he would like to fol- low up with this, I would be happy to engage in a further discussion with him about it, have him meet with some of the students, have them tell the minister their own personal stories. He can see the results of what they have achieved because of this program. [1135] V . Huntington: I thank the critic for giving me some opportunity here. Th e fi rst question I have for the minister is in regards to an issue of a constituent of mine. A friend of mine, a con- stituent of mine, many years ago was in a serious accident and is quadriplegic.

A number of years ago she began the gender redesignation process, legally, in the province — specialists, through the counselling, the pharmaceuticals, the operations. She has now had a gender reidentifi cation. So came the time for my friend to get her documen- tation resolved. She went to ICBC to get the new service card, to have her CareCard changed into the new sex designation, gender designation. ICBC had changed its policies and immediately gave her a new driver's licence. Care, however, was not able to change the designa- tion on her CareCard. It requires a birth certifi cate.

Here there was Vital Statistics. As long as the surgery occurred in British Columbia, Vital Statistics can take care of that. However, in this case my friend was born in Britain and came here about a year aft er she was born. So she's lived her entire life in Canada with Canadian documentation, Canadian citizenship, etc. Not being able to get her CareCard, she had to try and get a birth certifi cate changed in Britain. Well, if you've had a gender reassignment, you have to go through the General Medical Council. Th e General Medical Council requires two reports from specialists in Britain.

Th ey would not accept an internationally recognized special- ist in Vancouver. We now think, however, that maybe they've changed their policy and they will allow that. Meanwhile, we're back here. MSP knows there's a problem. Y our ministry has been working on the issue and a number of months ago said: "Well, we hope to have it resolved in a few months." A few months went by. We called. Our offi ce is very in- volved in this. "Well, we've got a policy now.

We think we've got a policy that will be accepted, but it's the process." It's the process, and we wouldn't be able to resolve this until at least the end of the year. What I'm saying is that this is an issue that really re- quires a CareCard to have a redesignation of sexual orientation on it. It's just a clear case of changing the name on the CareCard. All of the medical documentation is there. Everything has been done according to code. We need the minister, at this point, to satisfy this individual and get this pro- cess in place or make an exception in this instance. My friend is incredibly frustrated.

Th is has been going on for well over a year. I don't want to make it sound at all like a threat, but when you read the B.C. human rights code,

section 8, this is not appropriate. Th e reasonable justifi cation for discrimination, I think, has long passed at this point. I would really appreciate the minister's comment on this and action on this particular issue. [1140] Hon. T. Lake: I would be happy to discuss individual cases off line with the member, as I've not heard from her on this issue before. I've been told that it is quite com- plex policy work that is nearing completion and should be done this fall, but I'm happy to have a meeting with the member to go over the details of that. V . Huntington: I'll certainly take the minister up on it.

I apologize if I haven't been talking to the minister on this specifi c case. My constituency offi ce is deeply en- gaged with the ministry on it. Really, what it boils down to at this point is that there's — I can't tell you — anger, frustration, sadness and hurt, and there's a lack of dignity involved in this. When you think, really, she has a legal CareCard, and the name is the same. It just needs the gender changed on it so that she feels whole — that her identity is recognized by the province.

British Columbia Debates1104 Thursday, July 25, 2013 I think there's a compelling reason to move here far more quickly than the ministry has been able to. As an outsider, the red tape involved in this particular thing is extraordinary. Y es, it's confused by the fact that she has to go through Britain to get a gender change on the birth certifi cate, but at the same time, the operation is legal. If she had been born here, Vital Statistics would have recog- nized that and changed it immediately. I just feel that the minister does need to have a good talk with his offi cials and try and realize….

I don't think that this is as complicated as it's being made out to be. Y es, it's a policy change, but it should have been done a long time ago. I will contact the minis- ter's offi ce and sit down specifi cally on this case with him, and I thank him for that. My further question is a little less onerous and a little less personal. Th e Fraser Health Authority has estimated that the lost productivity, long-term care and rehabilita- tion of accident trauma victims are costing the province about $2.8 billion a year.

Many studies throughout the world and some jurisdictions have improved pre-hospital transportation, including more eff ective air ambulance services, and have found that it not only saves lives but has saved millions of dollars by decreasing the long-term care of individuals, the rehabilitation, simply by provid- ing more timely treatment. [1145] I'm wondering if the minister can tell me: when was the last time the ministry, the B.C.

Ambulance Service or the Provincial Health Services Authority worked with an independent body or post-secondary institution to con- duct a cost-benefi t analysis of improving pre-hospital care in British Columbia? Hon. T. Lake: Just going back to the fi rst issue the member raised.

Whereas I appreciate that you and your staff may have been working with my staff , we've been in this House fi ve weeks. So there were many opportunities to come and have a personal discussion, and I could have addressed the member's concerns perhaps a little earlier. When it comes to pre-hospitalization treatment, there is a lot of work that is ongoing. Th e ministry itself and the B.C. Ambulance Service haven't done a specifi c cost- benefi t analysis. When you look across medicine, it has become abundantly obvious that earlier treatment is bet- ter.

Th e golden hour, of course, is a very well-known tenet of emergency medicine. Our province is so diff erent in terms of geography, in terms of topography and in terms of the regional facili- ties available that each part of the province would have a diff erent type of approach to this problem. In urban centres, obviously, helicopter use may not be appropriate, and the use of critical care teams on ambulances would be more appropriate. In my area of the province, where we have much wider distances between where people live and where the regional hospitals are located, helicopter service makes a lot of sense.

In fact, it is employed throughout Interior Health, and I've heard stories from physicians — how helicopters not only support what they do in terms of managing their critical care patients but actually have saved their patients' lives by getting timely treatment and timely access to hospital. Also, throughout many areas of the province we have what are called high-acuity response teams. Th ese teams sometimes can include a critical care nurse, a respiratory technician and an emergency room doctor who will go in the ambulance so that they are administering pre- admission care at the site of the trauma.

Obviously, the prognosis for that patient becomes much greater. So pre-hospitalization treatment is critical, and we ap- proach it in a number of diff erent ways, depending on the needs of the particular part of the province. V . Huntington: I wonder if the minister could point me to any studies, documentation, any information on how the pre-hospital care, especially in the Air Ambulance Service, is organized in the province? [1150] I know that the ambulance service is presently look- ing at its personnel and aircraft locations.

I would like to know when the minister expects that study and review to be done and whether there's any existing information on their present capacity. Hon. T. Lake: Late last year the Auditor General sub- mitted a report on the B.C. Ambulance Service which was accepted by the Ambulance Service. In British Columbia, as I mentioned, with our diff erent topography and challenges, we have a delivery model that integrates ground and air operations to provide consistent, effi cient and high-quality care for patients. Th at service in 2011-2012 was used for 7,700 patients.

Th e Auditor General identifi ed areas that need improve- ment. Th e B.C. Ambulance Service will be implementing all of them. Th e three recommendations were to actively manage the performance of its Air Ambulance Service to achieve desired service standards for the quality, timeliness and safety of patient care. Th e second was to review whether the distribution of staff and aircraft across the province is optimal for responding to demand for air ambulance service.

Th e third was to regularly identify and review a sample of air ambulance dispatch decisions to ensure that resources are allocated with due consideration for patient needs and available resources. Th e Ambulance Service is currently working on those recommendations. Th e Auditor General will come back in October of 2014, so the response will be in place at that time. J. Darcy: Back to mental health, briefl y, before lunch.

British Columbia DebatesThursday, July 25, 2013 1105 A couple weeks ago I raised in the House and with the minister privately the issue of Lookout Society in New Westminster, where a budget of $80,000 had been cut by Fraser Health Authority, and asked the minister why that was the case and asked him to take action to have that funding restored. Th e minister's response at the time was that the work that was being done by Lookout Society was being taken up by the assertive community treatment program, ACT.

I want to return to this issue and inform the minister, and also ask a question, because I have explored this further with folks in New Westminster and with Lookout Society. Th e ACT program is a clinical treatment program that involves nurses and doctors and other clinical specialists who deal with chronic mental illnesses. Th ey do excel- lent work. [1155] But there was a particular niche that was being fi lled — an absolutely critical one — by this program, and it in- volves $80,000. It involves outreach workers. Th ey are not health specialists per se, but they deal with health issues.

Th ey have experience dealing with the homeless. Th ey do outreach with street-entrenched homeless who are dealing with mental illnesses, who are dealing with addictions, who are dealing with undiag- nosed medical conditions like brain injuries, in some cases. Th ey're dealing with people whose health is already compromised. And it will become more compromised if they don't get support. Th ey have a particular area of specialization of outreach with the homeless that has a major health component, but they are not a clinical out- reach team.

I would ask the minister if he would please meet with the Lookout Society, meet with Fraser Health, in order to reconsider that decision. In our city there has been enormous progress made in the last number of years in reducing homelessness. Th is project, this program, has been an important component of it. Hon. T. Lake: Th e outreach service the member is re- ferring to that was being provided by the Lookout Society is a duplicate of the service that is being provided by B.C. Housing.

Health authorities have a responsibility to en- sure that they're using their operating dollars to the best effi cacy for their clients and for the best value to the tax- payer. Th is was a decision made because of a duplication of services. Noting the hour, I move the House now rise, report progress and seek leave to sit again. Motion approved. Th e committee rose at 11:56 a.m. Th e House resumed; Madame Speaker in the chair. Committee of Supply (Section B), having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again. Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again.

Committee of Supply (Section C), having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again. Hon. T. Lake moved adjournment of the House. Motion approved. Madame Speaker: Th is House at its rising stands ad- journed till 1:30 this aft ernoon. Th e House adjourned at 11:58 a.m. PROCEEDINGS IN THE DOUGLAS FIR ROOM Committee of Supply ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF ABORIGINAL RELATIONS AND RECONCILIATION Th e House in Committee of Supply (Section A); M. Dalton in the chair. Th e committee met at 10:07 a.m. On Vote 11: ministry operations, $34,552,000. Hon. J. Rustad: I'd like to make a few opening com- ments.

First of all, I'd like to recognize that we're on the traditional territory of the Songhees and Esquimalt First Nations. With me today through this are my deputy, Steve Munro; also, Assistant Deputy Peter Walters; Assistant Deputy Peter Cunningham; and Assistant Deputies Charles Porter and Neilane Mayhew. Neilane Mayhew is the assistant deputy minister of corporate services for the natural resources sector. Partnerships with First Nations are a vital part of the B.C. jobs plan and have the potential to create major economic benefi ts and new opportunities across British Columbia.

Since the last estimates discussions we have achieved a number of signifi cant accomplishments, and I'd like to just touch on a few of those highlights before we get into questions. In particular, in April of this year the Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation signed the 18th non-treaty agreement achieved since the B.C. jobs plan was launched, surpassing the commitment to ten new

British Columbia Debates1106 Thursday, July 25, 2013 non-treaty agreements, two years ahead of schedule. Th ese agreements include ten mine-revenue-sharing agreements with First Nations and the fi rst-ever revenue- sharing agreement under the First Nations clean energy business fund — which, I understand, the critic has a specifi c interest in — which will see the Tahltan Nation benefi t from the Forrest Kerr hydroelectric project.

Th ese are examples of B.C.'s innovative approach to reaching non-treaty agreements that bring benefi ts more quickly to First Nations communities. [1010] In addition to the success achieved in non-treaty agreements, B.C. remains committed to the treaty pro- cess and continues to make progress. Since they were introduced, 15 incremental treaty agreements have been fi nalized. ITAs provide benefi ts for First Nations in ad- vance of reaching a treaty. Th is year B.C. passed legislation to ratify the Tla'amin Nation fi nal agreement.

Th e Kitsumkalum and Kitselas communities recently voted in favour of their fi nal agree- ment, and of course, the Senate recently just gave royal assent to the Y ale First Nation fi nal agreement, for which B.C. had previously passed its own legislation. We have made some great achievements through this ministry. I think there is certainly some more to be done, but we're seeing tremendous progress.

In particular, when you look at what we are facing with the opportunities around liquefi ed natural gas and the other resource developments, there is enormous poten- tial for our entire province to prosper, for both aborigin- al and non-aboriginal alike. Our ministry is focused on trying to make sure that we maximize what those oppor- tunities can be and that we bring benefi ts to First Nations, aboriginals and non-aboriginals across the province for the benefi t of all British Columbians. D. Donaldson: Thank you for that opening state- ment by the minister.

I congratulate him on his new role and his entry into cabinet as the Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation. I think it's a very import- ant portfolio for the province and for the north and the northwest, an area that we share and have roots in and concerns about. So congratulations on that. I know, as I said, it's his fi rst portfolio, as Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation. Th is is my fi rst estimates in that portfolio as well, so I'm very happy that we have a lot of competent staff here to help us through the an- swering of the questions I'll have on the budget process.

I would like to say that I am dismayed somewhat by the amount of time we have allotted today. I think we have about fi ve hours to consider about $82 million or $83 million. It works out, I think, to about $17 million or $19 million an hour. I think people in the province would ex- pect us to spend a bit more time on that. So I will have a number of written questions that I'll submit to the minis- ter, because we're not going to have enough time to cover everything in the amount of detail that I was hoping to.

I was joking with the minister yesterday, saying that perhaps tomorrow we could sit all day, just ourselves, and work through this budget process as well. But I think he'll be heading back to the north, as I will be too. I wanted to start off today on a topic of reconciliation. It's in the ministry's name. It's a big part of many aspects of the core activities. And it's something that I think…. I'm going to talk about this in a way that is non-partisan and as something I think we can find some solidar- ity upon, in relation to reconciliation.

Although we're here in budget estimates — and I am going to be talking about reconciliation that has to do with the ministry — I think we have to acknowledge what's going on around us right now. What's going on around us right now is the release just recently of horrifi c information around starving children being used in experiments in residential schools. We got the information last week that up to 1,300 First Nations, most of them children, were used in biomedical experi- ments sanctioned by the federal government. Th is was between 1942 and 1952.

Th e scenario is something I don't think the minister, myself, British Columbians or most Canadians would even contemplate as being part of how we see ourselves as Canadians. Researchers decided that isolated, depend- ent, hungry people would be ideal subjects for tests on the eff ects of diff erent diets. Th is was research that was turned up by a University of Guelph professor into food history research.

Material that he was able to fi nd during his research revealed this. [1015] What has happened since then is that this material came to light and was published in an academic journal right while the Assembly of First Nations was meeting — their national assembly in Whitehorse. Again, this was last week.

What I am proposing to the minister is that we ac- knowledge the wrongs that happened, which are typifi ed by this horrifi c experimentation sanctioned by the fed- eral government; that there is a B.C. connection, in that some of the children in the second round of experiments, I think beginning in 1943, attended the Port Alberni resi- dential school — so there is a B.C. connection; that this was a terribly wrong thing to happen; and that we ac- knowledge the concerns of the AFN and the local head of the AFN, as expressed at the AFN assembly. Th e First Nations Summit has come out with a state- ment on this.

Th e Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs has come out with a statement. What I'm proposing is that we acknowledge the wrongs here, that we acknowledge the concerns by those three groups and that we also refl ect item 6 in the emergency resolution that was passed by the AFN calling on the fed- eral and provincial governments "to initiate a strategic plan, created in partnership with indigenous peoples,

British Columbia DebatesThursday, July 25, 2013 1107 to ensure information regarding scientifi c information on indigenous peoples is made public and is refl ected in the public education curriculum." And it goes on a little bit there. I would be more than willing to stand shoulder to shoulder with the minister if he would draft a letter ac- knowledging those wrongs, acknowledging the concerns, to the federal government and put the province of B.C. on the record that we don't think this is right.

Th is is not something that we think should have been done, and this is part of what we consider the reconciliation process — by writing a letter to the federal government. I'd be happy to cosign that letter and to present a united front in a pub- lic statement on how wrong this was. [1020] Hon. J. Rustad: Th ank you to the critic for his open- ing remarks. As we both share the northwest and many similar concerns, I actually look forward to our rela- tionship over the coming time, however long that may be, and to have the opportunity to be able to work on a number of issues.

Th ere's no question that in Canada's history and, in particular, in Canada's relationship with First Nations, there have been many wrongs. Th ere have been a number of things that have happened over time that have been wrong. Th is is a new piece of information, of course, that has come to light, on which I agree with the member op- posite and with the First Nations leadership — that this was wrong in terms of the actions that were taken.

Although this is a federal jurisdiction in terms of this, I do agree and want to take into consideration what the member has suggested in terms of a letter that could be draft ed acknowledging the wrong that was done with this. I'd be happy, once we can get something like that draft ed, to allow the member to have a look at it and pos- sibly look at the opportunity to maybe even send that as a joint letter. D. Donaldson: Thanks to the minister for that re- sponse. Y es, it would be a fi ne opportunity to get on the record around this.

As I said, this event has sent shock waves throughout the First Nations communities and, I think, the rest of Canada as well. So to get the province of B.C. on the record to at least acknowledge that we don't con- sider this acceptable behaviour in any way whatsoever, I'd be very happy to work with the minister on draft ing a letter and attaching my name to that letter on behalf of the offi cial opposition.

Before I leave this topic — which I think is a good one for us to start off with, because it's something that we can stand together shoulder to shoulder on — I wanted to also get the minister's opinion and his comments on the Select Standing Committee on Aboriginal Aff airs. He knows as well as I do that it's been a long time since that committee was activated. I think it was either '95 or '96 the last time it sat, although MLAs are appointed to it every year since then on both sides of the govern- ment. No matter who's been in power, it hasn't sat since '95 or '96.

I would suggest to the minister that this is, again, a non-partisan issue that would be a good topic for the Select Standing Committee on Aboriginal Aff airs to ad- dress, especially in relation to the AFN emergency reso- lution, clause 6, where they're calling on the federal and provincial governments to initiate a strategic plan, in partnership with indigenous peoples, to ensure that in- formation regarding scientifi c experimentation is made public and to include that information in the public cur- riculum.

Regardless of where we look at that, I would ask for the minister's consideration and comments on this be- ing an excellent topic for the Select Standing Committee on Aboriginal Aff airs to undertake. Th ere are six mem- bers from the government side on that and four members from the offi cial opposition. We could work together to once again demonstrate how seriously we take this issue. We know that First Nations children who attended the Port Alberni residential school were impacted, but we're not sure how widespread this experimentation was. And again, it was horrifi c.

Y ou know, withholding milk from starving children in the name of science…. Th is was ethically questionable at the time but defi nitely something that…. We need to understand how widespread these eff ects were in B.C. I would suggest that would be a fi ne topic for…. I think the word is that the minister has to "em- power" the committee. Th at's the technical word, and I would ask what the minister's thoughts might be on that. [1025] Hon. J. Rustad: To the member opposite, I appreci- ate his thoughts and his suggestion around the Select Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs.

That is a committee that hasn't been active for many years. Certainly, I'll consider the suggestion that has come for- ward. At this particular point we don't have any plans to constitute the committee or charge it with a task. However, it's something I'll consider and think about over the next little while. Reconciliation and how we reach the reconciliation with First Nations to deal with many of those things over time is something that we take very seriously. It is, of course, part of the name in terms of the ministry.

But more than that, we've been reaching out and trying to form partnerships with First Nations across the province. We've been reaching out, in particular, to fi nd the best form of reconciliation, which is to come to treaty and to be able to move forward with treaty with First Nations. We've had some success, and we're seeing some accel- eration and some opportunities around there, particu-

British Columbia Debates1108 Thursday, July 25, 2013 larly through non-treaty agreements but also through agreements-in-principle and through incremental treaty agreements. We recognize that we need to be working with the leadership across the province. We need to be working with First Nations across the province to be able to bring that kind of reconciliation. Like I say, we are making progress on that, but cer- tainly, there is more work to be done. We look forward to those opportunities. D. Donaldson: Th anks to the minister for that.

Th at's something that I'm sure we can have a continuing dis- cussion about outside of this budget estimates process — the Select Standing Committee on Aboriginal Aff airs, as it's called. I want to move on now into some specifi cs on the budget estimates. I know that the minister has a number of the staff here, and we discussed earlier what some of the topics will be. Just to give an idea of how things….

How I plan to use the time this morning is to ask some specifi c ques- tions around the budget and then delve a little further into the questions around the treaty process and then around the non-treaty agreements. So that's the way I hope we'll be able to cover that amount of information before noon today.

Starting off , now that we're into the actual budget es- timates, I want to acknowledge that we are on the trad- itional territories of the Songhees and Esquimalt First Nations and appreciate that we're having our meeting on their territories. [1030] One thing right off the bat that raised a question for me was the amount in this vote that the minister put forward in his opening remarks. In the budget informa- tion I have — I'm just seeking some clarifi cation here — Vote 11, for ministry operations, I have $34.552 million.

In the estimates for 2013-'14 — I don't think that jibed with what the minister said in his opening comments, so perhaps he could clarify that. Hon. J. Rustad: Th e motion that was moved this mor- ning was for the ministerial operations, for $34.552 mil- lion. D. Donaldson: Th ank you for that. Maybe my ears weren't full of caff eine enough. I thought I heard $33 million. I'm happy, though, because that's the fi gure I've been working with. Could the minister inform: that amount, which in- cludes $19.994 million for salaries and benefi ts, what the FTE number in that is?

For those who might not be familiar, that's full-time-equivalent — in other words, a refl ection of the number of people working for the min- istry for that amount of money. What is the FTE number for this budget estimate, '13-14, and what was it last year? Hon. J. Rustad: Th e amount of $19.994 million is the budget that we have available for salaries and benefi ts. Of course, we have a number of staff within that. But we ac- tually try to manage within the overall budget, and so the number of FTEs can fl uctuate back and forth, depending on a number of variables.

We don't actually have the de- tailed information that the member has asked for. D. Donaldson: Th at's unfortunate. I would think that as a minister you'd want to know the number of people or the number of FTEs that they have at your disposal in the ministry. So it's fl uctuating back and forth. Can the minister give me an idea of: is it fl uctuating back and forth so that we have the same number of FTEs, approximately, as the last budget cycle, or less or more, in this one? [1035] Hon. J. Rustad: Last year's total budget around salary and benefi ts was $19.375 million.

As we did last year, as we'll do this year, we actually work to our total budget in terms of that, so there is some fl uctuation. But we don't track those numbers directly. D. Donaldson: I think if you're comparing…. Th is government oft en likes to compare itself to the business world. In the business world, I think that when a CEO gets asked, "How many people do you have working for you?" they have an answer. I fi nd it quite astonishing that the minister doesn't have an answer to a simple question like, "How many people work for you?" — whether it's FTEs or any other kind of number.

Maybe we'll be able to get a commitment from the minister to provide that in writing at a later date to me, if it's not available now. Let's talk specifi cally, then. Th is vote is about…. Part of this Vote 11, for the amount we've mentioned, is to do with negotiations and regional operations. Could the minister give me an idea of how many FTEs or staff work in regional operations, and how many are here in the cen- tral ministry in Victoria? [1040] Hon. J. Rustad: We have eight regional offi ces as part of our operations, plus our Victoria offi ce.

Of course, as I mentioned earlier, we manage our staffi ng levels to our budget. When we have needs, of course, we're bring- ing people on, and those sorts of things can fl uctuate. Approximately, at any given time, it could be 15 or 20 percent, give or take, that would be located out in our regional offi ces. Like I say, that can fl uctuate from time to time based on how we manage to our ultimate num- ber within our ministerial budget. D. Donaldson: Th ank you for that information. As the minister is aware, most of the negotiations around treaty

British Columbia DebatesThursday, July 25, 2013 1109 and non-treaty agreements are on territories that lie out- side of Victoria. When you've got 15 to 20 percent of the staff in regional offi ces — I think that's what I heard the minister tell me — that means you've got 80 percent of the staff in Victoria, where most of the First Nations that we're attempting to reconcile with aren't located. Would the minister contemplate allotting more of his staff resources and FTEs out into the regional offi ces, where the actual relationships get built with First Nations to achieve reconciliation, versus in Victoria? Hon.

J. Rustad: We're actually proud of the work we're doing in building relationships across the province with many First Nations. We have a very good team that is in place, which has been in place for a number of years, in terms of the core of our team, in building those relation- ships. Some of that, particularly around treaty, is out in our regional offi ces, and some of that's in our Victoria offi ces. Having consistency around how you build those relationships and work on that is important.

But we also make sure that within our ministry we do adapt to meet the various priorities that we come up against when we're into those negotiations. Th at's why earlier, when the member asked how many people were out in the regional offi ces, I gave a number that can vary and that could even be greater than 20 percent. It just de- pends on how we adapt to our priorities involved with how our relationships are moving along and which vari- ous fi les we have across the province that we're making progress with. D. Donaldson: Th anks for that answer.

I just want to confi rm, before I get into some specifi cs on the alloca- tion in this vote that we're discussing for Vote 11, which is basically the core activities of the ministry, $34.552 million…. [1045] I just want to ensure that the minister acknowledges these numbers. Last year it was $34.977 million. In '11- 12, the year before that, it was $35.010 million. So in fact, we've seen a decrease over the last three years in the budget for ministry core operations year to year. Hon. J. Rustad: To the member opposite, I think he has a copy of the mandate letter.

Th e number one issue in my mandate letter, the number one priority that's come forward, is to contribute to the overall province in terms of balancing our budget. We believe very strongly that we need to be fi scally responsible, that we need to be able to build credibility with our creditors, but also be able to have that certainty across the province and to investors coming in looking at our province. A balanced budget is something that we believe is a high priority. Th e Premier has made that a top prior- ity. Our government ran on that in the last election.

But getting to a balanced budget means that you have to be able to work together with all ministries to make some tough decisions. Y es, the numbers have changed a little bit over the last number of years, but we have been very eff ective work- ing within those numbers to be able to deliver on the opportunities that we're looking at to make sure that we can further our goals around the jobs plan. But certainly, balancing our budget is the number one priority. It's the number one issue in my mandate letter, and it continues to be a priority for our government going forward. D.

Donaldson: Th anks to the minister for acknow- ledging that information that I forwarded to him in the last question around the last three years seeing a decrease in the ministry operations budget. On that topic that he raised around balancing the budget, we know a core review process is underway, look- ing at fi nding $30 million in cuts across ministries. Can the minister advise what cuts in his ministry might be considered to achieve this $30 million? [1050] Hon. J. Rustad: To the member opposite: thank you for the question.

One of the things that we believe is important, which is why we actually have put forward to do the core review, is that it has actually been more than ten years since we last conducted a core review in the province. So we feel it's a good time to actually re-evaluate, especially through the challenging economic times and the process going forward, and ensure that the structure for success, par- ticularly within our resource sectors, is focused on the highest-priority programs and services.

Government has already done a good job, of course, of managing our costs, but we can always know that there is more that can be done. With regards to specifi cs around targets that are within the core review mandate, we have not received any in- formation at this particular point from the minister that has undertaken the core review, but I think if the mem- ber opposite has some additional questions around the core review, it might be better directed to the Minister of Energy and Mines, responsible for the core review. D. Donaldson: I don't have any additional questions on the core review.

I just want to get a commitment from the minister that when considering core services, this budget that he's presented today is extremely important for the province, for First Nations, for social, economic, environmental reasons and issues, so that he will fi ght to ensure that the core review leaves the ministry oper- ations as is, when they're looking at cutting $30 million from the budget. I just wanted to encourage the minis- ter to stand up for his portfolio, and I'd be very happy to support him in that. I have a specifi c question in regards to Vote 11. Th is is

British Columbia Debates1110 Thursday, July 25, 2013 something that I am hoping the minister and, especially, the staff can help me out with. In STOB 85 "Other ex- penses," under "Executive and support services," there's a just a little over $2 million line item. Th e $1.907 mil- lion under "Corporate services." Could the minister ad- vise what this amount is intended for? Hon. J. Rustad: To the member's initial earlier com- ment about core review, I just wanted to mention that we believe, in government, that we owe it to taxpayers to make sure that they're getting the best value they can for their tax dollars.

So, of course, the process of core review will be extensive, will be comprehensive in terms of the process looking forward and will be done responsibly, prudently and quickly. We recognize, of course, that we're already the leanest public service in Canada, so it's not about designating a project to cut jobs.

Rather, it's about making sure that we are as effi cient as we can possibly be in how we deliver the services and how we go about our day-to-day operations. [1055] Specifi cally to the question the member has around the executive and support services of $2.002 million, a lot of that is around overhead — things like legal costs, cor- porate services that we are a part of in terms of govern- ment, in terms of a number of ministries, facility space. What I would off er to the member opposite is that we can give you a breakdown of all of that, if you would like. D.

Donaldson: Y es, I'll take the minister up on that off er to give a breakdown. In this $1.907 million for cor- porate services, how much of that is spent on contractors or contract services? Hon. J. Rustad: My commitment to the member op- posite in the House the other day was to try to be brief with answers, because I know he does have a lot to go through. But specifi cally with regards to the $1.907 mil- lion — I believe he's referring to STOB 85 from his ear- lier question — to the best of my knowledge, there are no contract services under that amount. D. Donaldson: Th ank you for that information.

I have many questions on specifi c line items here. I will provide some of them in writing, because time is fl eeting. I still would like to touch on two other areas. Th ere's a line item under "Strategic initiatives" — under STOB 60, which is "Professional services" — for $481,000. Could the minister advise what this entails? Hon. J. Rustad: Th e amount of money that is under STOB 60 is primarily around implementing a variety of agreements, and they include things such as surveying costs. D. Donaldson: Th ank you for that. So the $481,000 — how much of that was contract services?

And if there are contract services in that $481,000, how many of those were tendered and how many were direct-award? [1100] Hon. J. Rustad: Of course, as the member knows, we are just a number of months now into a new fi scal year, so that is the amount that has been budgeted. Of course, you know, some work is undergoing, but there's no way to be able give a breakdown at this point as to what might be spent under which particular categories over the course of the year, as we are only partway into the year. D. Donaldson: Th anks for that.

If I could get a com- mitment, then — similarly to the off er the minister gave before — of a breakdown of the answer to that question for last year's budget estimate, that would be appreciated. Hon. J. Rustad: From last year. D. Donaldson: Y eah. It would be an actual rather than an estimate. Moving on here, STOB 80. There's $5.771 mil- lion, under transferred shared cost agreements, for "Partnerships and community renewal" and "Strategic initiatives." Could the minister elaborate on what those items refl ect? Hon. J.

Rustad: To the member opposite, his fi rst part of that question, which was around the information from last year — we commit that we will get whatever informa- tion we can to him on that, as he has asked. With regards to the other question on STOB 80, which is around partnerships, that is the amount that we actual- ly go out and engage with the various organizations and support various organizations through our ministry, or- ganizations such as the B.C. Treaty Commission. D. Donaldson: Th anks for that answer.

Well, there is a good segue into another question that I had for this par- ticular part of the estimates process. Under Vote 11 what is the amount that the province allocates, under this min- istry, to negotiations around treaty — and also, separately, allocates to the actual B.C. Treaty Commission? So two diff erent questions there. [1105] Hon. J. Rustad: As you know, we are going out and engaging with First Nations and building those relation- ships. We're talking treaty and other potential agree- ments.

Th ere is a lot of overlap between many of those discussions, so we don't actually have a direct breakdown, as the member has asked, in terms of how much was spent directly on treaty. To the second part of his question around the B.C. Treaty Commission: last year we allocated $4.139 mil-

British Columbia DebatesThursday, July 25, 2013 1111 lion to the B.C. Treaty Commission, and we're anticipat- ing that this year's allocation will be similar. D. Donaldson: A couple more questions on the spe- cifi cs here. Th e minister's offi ce — salaries and benefi ts. In other words, the staffi ng costs are $389,000. Does the minister have a chief of staff ? Hon. J. Rustad: Y es. D. Donaldson: Last year was there a chief of staff , or was that position called a ministerial assistant? Hon. J. Rustad: Last year the position of chief of staff did not exist. It was a ministerial assistant. D.

Donaldson: What is the diff erence in salary paid last year to a ministerial assistant — the uplift between that and the chief of staff this year? Hon. J. Rustad: Th anks to the member for the ques- tion. As the member probably is aware, there is a range for the position of chief of staff in terms of that. I think that information is available, and we can get that infor- mation to you around what that range is for the chief of staff position. D. Donaldson: Okay. I'll take that as an affi rmation that the minister will provide in writing that information to me at a later date aft er the budget estimates. Hon. J.

Rustad: For the range. D. Donaldson: For the range. Th anks for that. He nod- ded acknowledgement for the range. Two more, hopefully, relatively quick questions. I ap- preciate the minister trying to answer in a quick manner. Under STOB 90, revenues external to the government reporting entity, there is a $401,000 external recovery for strategic initiatives. [1110] Can the minister advise what this refl ects? Hon. J. Rustad: Just in the fairness of time…. It'll take us a little bit of time to look it up. If it's okay, we can ac- tually get that information to you with regards to what the external recovery is.

We can look it up if you'd like to wait longer. D. Donaldson: Th at's fi ne. In fact, I'll pose another one in the meantime that might be something the staff that are here can work on, if they can't give you an im- mediate answer. Just a curiosity. STOB 73 deals with amortization, and there's a $230,000 entry there for negotiations and regional operations to do with amortization. Th at is a curiosity to me, about what that might cover. Hon. J. Rustad: Amortization, as I'm sure the member knows, is a standard practice in terms of….

When you have any sort of asset that is purchased or acquired, you have to amortize that over time. So that amount likely deals with computer systems, databases, those types of things, in terms of amortization. D. Donaldson: Th ank you for that. I'll await the an- swer on the revenues external to the government re- porting entity. I'm interested in knowing where that $400,000 is coming from. Y ou're going to be able to look up as we proceed today — might even be this aft ernoon. Th at's fi ne. I'd like to move on now to treaty.

Th e minister men- tioned that the allocation — I want to make sure I get this straight — from his ministry, from the provincial government through his ministry to the B.C. Treaty Commission, was about $4.139 million in 2012-13, and it'll be approximately the same in this estimates process. How is that number arrived at? Hon. J. Rustad: As I mentioned earlier, the amount of $4.139 million is what we're anticipating to be allocated again this year. Th at's derived through a cost-sharing ar- rangement that we have with the federal government.

Th rough various discussions with the federal government, we come to that agreement. Like I say, we're anticipating that to be a similar amount for this year. [1115] D. Donaldson: Is that a cost-sharing agreement where the province is responsible for 40 percent of the funding for the B.C. Treaty Commission and the federal govern- ment for 60 percent? Hon. J. Rustad: Sorry, it took a little bit of time to sort this through, because it's not just as simple as the oper- ational budget for the B.C. Treaty Commission.

For the operations component, we have a 40 percent agreement from the province, 60 percent agreement from the federal government. When it comes to various negotiations and the loan side, of course, it's a little bit diff erent. So 80 per- cent of the loan is guaranteed by the federal government. Th e remaining amount of that is split in terms of 40 per- cent from the provincial and 60 percent from the federal. D. Donaldson: Th ank you for that. Y es, I'm aware of the loan component and that part of the BCTC funding process. But the $4.139 million — that's associated with operations, I believe.

Is that the 40-60 percent? Hon. J. Rustad: Out of the $4.139 million, approxi- mately $1.019 million actually goes towards the oper- ational amount, and $3 million is actually contributed

British Columbia Debates1112 Thursday, July 25, 2013 to the negotiation side through the cost-sharing as de- scribed earlier. D. Donaldson: Th anks for that clarifi cation. Given that the importance of treaties is acknowledged in the service plan and by this government….

I'll quote: "… long-term treaties that are the ultimate form of recon- ciliation and provide economic benefi ts and security for all British Columbians." Th at's part of the service plan marching orders, to negotiate the long-term treaties, and a recognition that long-term treaties are the highest level of certainty, de- spite all the non-treaty agreements that we're seeing these days, which, you know, provide benefi t, obviously, to First Nations but don't deal with the governance issue, which is the tough nut to crack, I believe, when it comes to settling treaties. [1120] Given that and given the amount of work that the B.C.

Treaty Commission is seeing…. Th e last few years have seen an increase in the number of later-stage negotiations, which is a positive sign, I agree. We've had two treaties signed — the Tsawwassen and the Maa-nulth — and then many are in completed fi nal agreements. Th en there are many in advanced AIPs — agreements-in-principle. Th ere's an increased workload for the BCTC, as keepers of the process. Th e minister, I know, met with the chair of the B.C. Treaty Commission, Sophie Pierre, and I did as well.

She described to me the increased amount of work and the high priority that this government puts on the treaty pro- cess but that that's not being backed up when it comes to a resource aspect. Y ou know, you've got two treaties that are signed off for implementation. Y ou've got a number waiting in the wings, including the Y ale. I believe that has been fi nalized at the federal level now. Y ou've got others, the Tla'amin and others, that are almost there and others that have moved up in the process. Th ese are getting to critical stages. Much of the work is at a critical stage, I would say.

Th e BCTC, because of recent experiences, has seen in- creased work and has taken upon themselves, as part of their mandate — which is a good part of their mandate — to do more work on the ratifi cation process, because we've seen some need for that in recent situations. Th ey've also seen an increasing workload in what's called shared-boundary or shared-territory disputes and overlap issues. Th ose are critical, I think, for the future workings of a treaty. I mean, we're seeing some of that fallout with the Nisga'a treaty, and we're seeing some be- tween the Gitksan and the downstream neighbours al- ready.

So there's a lot of work to be done on that as well. Th e Auditor General recommended an enhanced role for the B.C. Treaty Commission in shared-territory disputes. Given those, why would the minister have in his estimates the same amount of funding towards the BCTC as last year, when these issues — and the Treaty Commission's head commissioner — raise an increas- ing workload? [1125] Hon. J. Rustad: We are in agreement around recon- ciliation and how treaties can be the best form of recon- ciliation.

At the beginning, in our opening statements, we talked about a list of projects and of opportunities, of partnerships with First Nations and with the federal gov- ernment that we've seen success on. As the member said, the Y ale treaty has gone through the federal government process now, so it's through that. The Tla'amin — we've passed legislation here. We're hoping that will go through federally — hopefully, be- fore too long. But as we talked about with the mandate letter, we're also in a situation where we are in tough fi scal times. We need to be able to manage our budgets.

We need to be able to manage the money on behalf of the province as effi ciently as we possibly can. As a sign of importance to going through the treaty process and to furthering the initiatives that we've been working on for a number of years now, we're pleased that we are able to maintain as close as we can to what the numbers have been last year — even though we've gone through the challenge of bringing in and having a balanced budget.

As I said earlier, our government has a priority of mov- ing forward in a fi scally responsible way, of making sure that we have a balanced budget — supporting our job growth, supporting our agenda going forward, to the best of our abilities. Moving forward with treaty and non-treaty opportun- ities with First Nations is a big part of moving forward, particularly on the jobs agenda. As I mentioned, we're maintaining, through the BCTC, what we can do. Like I said, that is a sign of the level of importance we've put to being able to move forward and reach fi nal agreement and bring in that reconciliation. D.

Donaldson: Well, the minister has already ac- knowledged that the budget for this ministry's oper- ations has declined each year in the last three years. And the head of the Treaty Commission, the chief commis- sioner, Sophie Pierre, says the workload has increased for the B.C. Treaty Commission. Y et the funding, which the province is providing to the Treaty Commission to do the work that it needs to do as keepers of the process, remains the same. So when the minister talks about the importance of, and how they protected, this budget, I don't think that on that evidence it's protecting the budget.

Secondly, when the minister talks about his number one priority in his mandate letter as budgetary, then I think the right hand needs to be talking to the left hand. We know that the new

British Columbia DebatesThursday, July 25, 2013 1113 revenue generated

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	20130725am-Hansard-v4n6
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	20130725am Hansard v4n6
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	84c9c734837c7c03793a08e17e25f64d0a4d29e5

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