Manitoba Hansard — 8 June 1982 (Sitting 71A, 32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-71a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 8 June, 1982 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Wal din g (SI. Vit al): Presenting Petitions . . Reading and Receiving Petitions PR ESE NTIN G REPO RTS BY STAN DING AND SPECIAL COM MITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Mr . Speaker, the Com mittee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and ask leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Hono urable Me mber for Riel that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Kildonan. MS. M. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to present the fourth report of the Standing Com mittee on Economic Development. Your Standing Com mittee on Econo mic Develop ment begs leave to present the following as their Fourth Rep ort: Your Com mittee met on Tuesday, June 8, 19 82 and appointed Ms. Dolin as Ch airperson in the pla ce of Mr . Scott, formerly a member of the Com mittee. Your Com mittee considered the Annu al Repor ts of the Mani toba Devel opment Corpor ation and Flyer Indus tries Ltd., and the Financial Statements of Wil liam Clare (Ma nitoba) Ltd. Mr .

Hugh J. Jones, Cha irman and General Ma nager of the Ma nitoba Devel opment Corpor ation, and members of the staff, provided such inform ation as was req uired by members of the Com mittee with respect to the Manitoba Developme nt Corpor ation. Informa tion with respect to all matters pertaining to the operations of Fly er In dustries Ltd. was provided by Mr. Doug las R. McKay, President of the Company. The ful lest opportu nity was accorded to all members of the Com mittee to seek any information desired.

Your Com mittee examined the Annual Rep ort of the Manitoba Development Corpo ration for the fiscal year ending March 31 , 19 81 and the Financial Statements of Fly er Industries Ltd ., and William Clare (M anitoba) Ltd. as at December 31 , 19 81, and adopted the same as presented. All of which is respect fully subm itted, M. B. Dolin, Cha irperson. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Hono urable Mem ber for Radisson that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports of Bills . Notices of Motion ORAL QUESTIONS . Introd uction MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my qu estion is to the Honour able the Minister of Health. I would ask him whether he can advise the Hous e, Sir, which office it was of the Depar tment of Health that was contacted by Mr s. John Leppky of Nivervi lle for informa tion on rabies? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, Mr . Speaker, that acci dent apparently happene d on Ma y 4th and the office tha t was contacted on Ma y 4th was not the office of the Department of Health at all, it was the Federal Depar tment of Agric ultur e.

It was only on the 25th of May that my department was instructed. It was a little late then. I have been advised that all these people are being treated by their own doctors and that they are doing fine. Had they cal led us immediately they would have had the informa tion from our department, either from Dr. Eadie or from Dr . Mor ley Sirett. I don't know why the Federal Department of Agricultur e didn't refer them to us but they didn't. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, would the Mini ster assure the House that he is undertaking approaches to the Federal Department of Agricultur e to unde rline the difficulties that result ed from that kind of response given to Mr s. Leppky and ur ging a much tighter and closer liaison between federal offices of that kind and the Provincial Ministry of Health, when it is essentially a health que stion that is being asked and raised? 314 0 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I could inform the mem bers of this House that I've alr eady instructed staff to do ju st that. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr .

Speaker, can the Minister assure the Hous e that the department's publ ic edu ca tion cam paign on Rabies include s the specific notice that Ra bies can be trans mitted by saliva and it doesn't necessarily require an animal bite? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, Mr . Speaker, I think that is inform ation that the pu blic should receive. I must confess that I had no idea that it could be trans mitted like that until I read the article. The

article was cer tainly helpful in that direction and we will certain ly look to see if that kind, not only that, but if we can give more information to the publ ic in case of an emer-

Tuesday, 8 June, 1982 �� · ��- gency such as this and you wouldn't have this un for tu nate situation. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister advise the Hous e whether there is a Medi cal Officer of Health in the Eastman region or whether the depart ment is relying on part- time participation by private practitioner s? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I'll have to get the information. I don't want to guess at this time . I'll get the information and give it to my honou rable friend. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for La Verendr ye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr . Speaker.

I direct my qu estion to the Minis ter of Educ ation and would ask her whether or not she could confirm that residents living in the Local Government District of Reynolds, Hadas hville and East Braintree area are facing prop erty tax increases, in some instances, of almost 100 percent? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour ab le Mi nis ter of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr . Speaker, I understand that there is a letter coming to me with the informa tion that he jus t indicated regard ing the tax increases for the School Division of Agassiz.

When I heard that this letter was coming, although I hadn't received it, I gathered the information that I knew he would be asking for in today's qu estion period and while, as usual, it's fairly detailed and complex, and I want to share the three pages of material with him, I'm going to su mmarize right now the major points. Fir st of all, I'm as concerned as he is about the information that we've recei ved about the tax increases.

I want to tell him that the major reasons that we have identified for this tremendous increase is the re-assess ment that took place through the Provincial Assessment Branch in 1980 and I can give him the statistics that indicate that. In terms of the money that came from the govern ment, I think, that our school grants, the Edu cational Support Program that they brou ght in and the su pplement ary program that we brought in, did an excellent job in going towards giv ing help to the school division. They brought in a budget with a 24 percent increase, Mr.

Speaker, we gave them a 19 .1 percent increase in operating costs. I don't think anybody with the resources available today would say tha t a 19 percent increase was not a good increase and a fair and good supp ort for the school division. The assessment that took place in '81 does not impact for a year and it means that the taxpayers are faced with the impact of a two-year increase in the one year. The prev ious govern ment recognized the prob lems with the assessment base, that's why they set up the Weir Comm ission. We recognized the problems and we're foll owing thr ough and looking at it.

It will be clear when he sees the details of this information that the govern ment su pport has been adequa te to help the division and the main problem is the re-a ssessment 3141 of the property tax in that area. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr . Speaker, a supp le menta ry qu estion.

In light of the fact that some of the homeowners, for instance, a home with a small acreage of marginal land that is assessed jointly at about $8,000 will jump from $418 to $721 this year, I wonder if the Min ister could inform the residents in that particular area whether or not there will be any steps taken by her department to try and alleviate this situation in this particular year of having such a large increase at a time when many of the people are finding it hard just to keep their own homes. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr .

Speaker, I can't think of a better way to demonstrate the reasons that this gov ernment brought in the supplement al program that we brought in. It was to help school divisions like Agassiz that were faced with serious problems of their ability to raise money in their assess ment base. Mr. Speaker, I thinl< we did the best we could this year with this Budge t, with the money tha t was available.

Agassiz School Division received a mill-rate reduction of 6.3 mills as a direct result of the supplement al program that they would not have received had we not br ought that program into place, so we recognize school divi sions like Agassiz were in a difficult position. We brought in a special-s upport program to give those disadvantaged divisions additiona l help to the degree that we could, and we recognize that it's a basic, serious problem of the assessment base that has to be addressed on a provincial basis.

We did the best we could for Agassiz and school divisions like Agassiz with the money we had availa ble this year. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr . Speaker, in light of the answer to the qu estion, I wonder if I could direct another qu estion to the Minister in charge of Munic ipal Affairs and ask him with regard to the reassessment in that particular area whether or not he will be working with the Minister of Educ ation to try and alleviate this one year hard ship that these people are being asked to bear, this horrendous increase in one year's taxa tion? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Mu nici pal Affairs. MR. A.

ADAM: Mr . Speaker, this is the first informa tion that I have received of the problem in Agassiz School Division. My staff at the present time is review ing the report and the recommendations that we have received from the Assessment Review Com mittee. We will be, fur ther to that, taking sam ples of assessment thr oughout the province on a numb er of different areas, both ur ban and ru ral, to analyze the actual impact of the recommendations.

Later on in the fall it is my intention to have the Munici pal Affairs Standing Committee of the Legislature go out and elicit information, elicit advice from the people of Man itoba on the impact of the recommendation. Hopefully, we can resolve the problems that are now being experienced in the assessment of the properties in the Province of Manit oba. MR. R. BANMAN: Well, Mr. Speake r, these people still aren't being helped. They're going to be faced

Tuesday, 8 June, 1982 with pretty enormous increases and I would ask the Minister of Educ ation whether or not she could con firm that the amount of provincial su pport that the Agassiz School Division is receiving from the Provin cial Government has dropp ed from last year to this year, in percentage terms? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour ab le Mini ster of Edu cation. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I don't have the figures of the percentage increase that they received last year.

I would be sur prised - I'll confirm that if that is the case - if it were more than a 19-percent incr ease for the school division since the supp lemental pro gram wasn't in place and has had a significant impact on the amount of money that they received which they did not receive in last year's Edu cational Support Pro gram tha t did not have the special su pplemental pro gram. So that they received more than they would have received had we left the program intact the way it was to be for its second year.

The effort was made to give as much help as we could to school divisions like Agassiz facing a difficult year. MR. R. BANMAN: I wonder if the Minister of Ed uca tion could check for me and confirm whether or not in 1981 the Provincial Government picked up about 82 percent of the total costs of edu cation in Agassiz School Division and this year it's going to be about 80 percent which means there's a 2 percent drop in the amount of money that the province is picking up as far as percentage of total expenditu res. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will get that information for the Mem ber for Hano ver.

Wha t I can indicate is that is possible because there was a declin ing enrolment of, I believe, about 80 students in the division and we all know that a drop of 80 students which has an impact, I think, of one unit; it means about $90,000 and is a significant impact on a small school division. So the percentage incr ease could be down, not related to the amount of money we put in, but related directly to the negative impact of loss of students. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I have a que stion to the Minister of Agriculture.

In view of the fact that the report last week in the Free Press was correct as writ ten by Jack Fran cis, that there would be some major changes in the Department of Agriculture, Mr. Speaker, and the Minister did not, dur ing Estimates, give us the detail of the positions he would be creating and those people who'd be filli ng those positions, will the Minis ter of Agriculture now give us, or as qu ickly as possi ble. the precise positions that he is creating and who will be filli ng those positions within the new re orga nized Department of Agriculture? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour ab le Mini ster of Agricultu re. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr . Speaker, the reorga nization that I spoke about is not a major reorga nization in the · ��- -�� Department of Agriculture and I repeat that. Mr. Speaker, with respect to the chan ges and the staff and personnel who will be occu pying those posi tions, there is a retirement;aAn Assistant Deputy Min ister retired; that position will be bul letined and adver tised. There has been a reduction in scope in terms of one other position and that as well is being adver tised. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr .

Speaker, will they be handl ed thr ough normal hiring thr ough the Civil Service or will the precedent which has been set by the Memb er for Br andon Ea9t be used and political appointments made to those positions? As well, Mr. Speaker, is there a position being created or being developed for Mr. Jac k Wesson who was the head of the Saskatchewan State Farm Pro gram who probab ly will be now looking for a job in Ma nitoba? Is that one of the individua ls who will be given a job, Mr. Speaker? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, it appears that, with respect to the positions that have been bulletined, they are being handled in the normal fashio n. If they are senior officer positions, they will be appr oved by Order-in-Coun cil, there will be an advertising pro cess, as is required by the Civil Service Act. With respect to the other comments of the honour able member, I would hope that any person in this countr y who feels tha t his services might be able to be utilized by the job descriptions that we are advertising, will ap ply. We will not discriminate against people from Saskatchewan. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, precisely, will the Min ister indicate whether the head of the Saskatchewan Land Bank Program has been hired by the govern ment or, in fact, is he being considered for a job within the Ma nitoba Civil Service? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr . Speaker, it appears that, in terms of one leaving his position in the Province of Ma nitoba for an incr ease in salary fro m $58,000 to $85,000, was a very profitable move for civil servants in the Province of Man itoba.

With respect to the indi vidual that the honou rable member speaks of, I have to say that I thank him for his suggestion and, if his services would be open to us he certainly would be considered along with anyone else for a position that may or may not be available in the futur e. 314 2 IN TRODUC TION OF GU ESTS MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Perhaps this would be a convenient time to interrupt the proceedings to direct the attention of honour able members to the gallery and to the loge on my right. In the gallery we have 30 student s of Grade 6 stand ing of the King George V School under the direction of Mr s.

Higgins and Mrs. Richards. The school is in the Constituency of the Honourable Minister of Heal th. In the loge to my right is Ken Dillon, the former MLA for Tho mpson. On behalf of all the members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS (Cont'

d) MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Tuxedo.

Tuesday, 8 June, 1982 MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. My que s tion is for the Minister of the Environment. We were sorry to learn that he, due to illne ss. was unable to travel to Washington with the Gar rison group. We are nevertheless pleased to see that he is here to answer our que stions today. The que stion is, Mr. Speaker, when can we expect a decision by the Clean Environ ment Commission with respect to the public hearings on the stack emissions for Inca at Thomp son? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. J.

COWAN: So that I can correct the record which has jus t been given some improper informa tion or incorrect informa tion by the member pr eviously, I did not postpone or not carry on with the trip to Washington with my colleague s and his colleagues because of ill ness, but I did so because I had a numb er of pressing activities here which I felt needed to be accomp lished in quick order and, hopefully , I will be able to bring forward some reports which have been outstanding for some time now as a result of not going on that trip which I would have enjoyed participating in and would have enjoyed being a part of.

However, I have great confidence that my colle ague, the Minister of Natural Resou rces, and my other colleagues as well as the colleagues from the other side of the House and those from the Federal Government will do as good a job as I would have done had I had the opportu nity to participate in that trip with them. In respect to the specific qu estion, I will have to get that inform ation for the member and provide him with a detailed answer once I've had an opportu nity to get those details from the Clean Envir onment Commis sion but I will undertake to do so and report back to him as soon as is possible. MR.

G. FILMON: Mr . Speaker, I'm happ y to have that information to correct the record because it had been provided to us by his colleague s so perhaps they were just under the impression he was ill. Mr . Speaker, my second que stion to the Minister of the Environment is, when can we expect the Clean Envir onment Com mission decision on hearings that were held with respect to discharges to the Assini boine River in Brandon by Simplot? HON. J. COWAN: Well, I'm certainly pleased to hear that the members opposite are taking such a concern in my health.

I have to admit that from time to time it could be better, but as with the case with everyone in this Chamber after a long Session, their health could be better from time to time as well. The specific ans wer, as the member is aware, is up to the timing of the Clean Environment Com mission and they are taking the time which I feel is necessary to fully review the evidence and the docum entation which was presented to them as a re sul t of those hearings, both in the previous instance and in this instance and, as well, in a numb er of other cases which they are reviewing at the present time.

I do have to put on the record that I have no dissatis faction with the rate of speed which they are taking to provide those reports at this time. We have given them some fairly heavy tasks as of late, including the corn- 3143 prehensive review of Baygon spr aying and other mosquito control and larviciding programs which was necessary.

For that reason, we may have put a lot on their plate at the present time and that may be slowing down the process a bit, but I am assu red from my conversations with them that they are doing as com prehens ive a job as is possible and I commend them on tha t and I would not want them to rush forward the reports and not take the time to make certain that they have fully considered all the evidence, all the docu mentation, all the arguments and all the concerns that were brough t forward so as to be able to provide a comprehe nsive report as part of their duties as the Clean Environment Com mission. MR. G.

FILMON: Mr . Speaker, referring to the matter of Garrison, I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether or not the Legal Counsel from the Attorney General's Department who was sent to Washington to open an office and have a Manitoba presence there will be staying in Washington beyond June 30th of this year? My qu estion was to the Minister of the Environ ment, but perhaps if the Attorney-General is in a bet ter position to answer that . HON. J. COWAN: Well, I cannot provide to the member at this time an exact answer as to when it is expected that person will be there or not be ther e.

I will check with my colleagues and report back to him or have my colleagues report directly back to him with the answer to that specific qu estion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Robli n-R ussell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I have a qu estion for the Honour able First Minister or the Min ister of Mu nicipal Affairs. I wonder if the government, Mr . Speaker, has finally made up its mind that the little Village of Shell mouth can proceed with their Centen nial this year. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr .

Speaker, it's my informa tion that I've received by way of the Department of Mu nici pal Affairs, that the unincorpor ated Vil lage of Shel lmouth indeed would be establishing a precedent by which many other communities would be eligible for grants if we offered a grant to the co mmunity in qu estion. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, is the First Minister telling me that this little Village of Shell mouth which is cele brating their Cen tennial year, their 1 OOth year this year, and all the monies tha t we have in this Bu dget and the grants that this government is extending to people of this prov ince and that village cannot carry on with their Cen tennial celebr ation because of the lack of grant and courage of this government? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, I believe that I am correct in the statement that I'm about to offer to the honour able member.

It's my understanding that ther e has been a criteria that has been pur sued for a numb er

Tuesday, 8 June, 1982 ----- of years that there have indeed been requests from year to year pertaining to the app lication of centennial grants. It is my understanding that the present Mini s ter of Mu nicipal Affairs has not changed that criteria and, therefo re, Mr.

Speaker, I think it is only fair that if we have criteria in place, we would not cha nge it because one particul ar community has come forward when, indeed, other communi ties that would have been in a similar position would have been refused over the years based upon this same basis that a refusal is being made insofar as the Commu nity of Shell mouth. MR. W. McKENZIE: Well, Mr.

Speaker, now that I'm getting the message from the First Minister and this government, who are sup posed to be looking after the people of this province, this village of Shellmouth is celebrating their 10 0th an niversary and if this gov ernment isn't going to put up the money, I'll put it up out of my own pocket. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr . Speaker, my question is for the First Minister. The First Minister indicated criteria were in place to assure that centen nial grants went out appropr iately.

Possibly, the First Minister might instruct his Minister of Mu nicipal Affairs to use the same kind of discretion that was exercised by us when we were government and respect for the people of Mani toba and from time to time modify the criteria such as was done by our government for the commu nity of Winkler in celeb rat ing their 75th anniversary and not their centennial. The ap propriate thing for him to instruct his Minister of Mu nicipal Affairs to do would be to honour the 1 OOth year centennial of the Vil lage of Shellm outh and show his app reciation of villages in rural Man itoba. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr .

Speaker, I believe there was an exception that was made, as well, in respect to Gimli because there is quite a difference between incorp or ated commu nities and un incorpor ated communi ties in case the Mem ber for Pembina is not conscious of that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr . Speaker, my ques tion is to the Minister of Educ ation. It has come to my attention that there's been a report of students being evacua ted from the Neepawa School because of a gas leak. Could you give us a report on the safety of these students, please? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr . Speaker, I ju st received this inform ation as I was coming into the Hous e this after noon and I will read it out and shar e with you what I know about this particular issue. The Hazel Kelli ngton School in Neepawa was evac uated at 9:30 a.m. this morning, 400 students from K to 6 were moved to the high school. Thirty students were hospitalized; all except four have been released. According to the Su perintendent 's Office the evacua tion was necessitated by the presence of some gas which posed a health hazard to students. Dr.

Jakob son, a medical doctor, is taking blood sam ples. He thinks it might be one of two things; natural gas leak from the fu rnace or fumes from the chimney were backing up and circulating through the air condition ing system. Inter-City Gas was on the scene. They have checked for natural gas leaks and have indicated there were no gas fu mes ap parent. It ther efore appears they're look ing into the qu estion of fumes from the chimney. The fire department is on the scene looking into the matter and we will be in touch with the division office and Dr . Jakobson to get fur ther information. 3144 MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for St. Norb ert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I've a que stion for the Minister of Edu cation. Can the Minister of Edu cation confirm that she and her government lifted or elimi nated the 5-mill ceiling on the increase in the school levy which our govern ment had brought into being last year in our education financing? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ist e r of Educa tion. HON. M. HEMPHILL: If I understand the que stion correctly, Mr . Speaker, no we did not.

My understand ing is that you were asking me if we made, or I made, any cha nges in not allowing school divisions to go over 5 mills without giving some additional support fro m the government. Is that the question? We left that intact. The support went out to the school divisions as it did last year and as the commitment by the previous government was, we honour ed that. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr . Speaker, last year when our government brought in the Edu cation Refinancing Program and the Greater Winnipeg Eq uilization Levy was eliminated in the city, we imposed in the commun ity of St.

No rbert within the Seine River School Divi sion a limit on the increase in the school levy so that we provided a subsidy for any incr ease in the mill rate over 5 mills. My qu estion, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister, and she can take it as notice if she wishes, did her government this year eliminate that 5 mill ceiling? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I thought that's wha t the member was asking. I do not need to take the question as notice. The commitment was made not only to St. Norb ert, but to any school division who had an increase over 5 mills that there would be·a special su bsidy.

I can't qu ite remember the numb er of school divisions that came into this category, six or seven, I believe. I can check into that. They received the same subsidy as was received last year and they, to my knowledge, and I will check into this, received it as they did the money from the sup plemental program as a special money that went out to them based on their local situation. We did not change that commitment and all the school divisions received the money that they were entitled to through the commitment made

Tuesday, 8 June, 19 82 by the previous gover nment under the Edu cational Support Program. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr . Speaker, my qu estion is to the Honour able Minister of Educa tion. Has the Minister received the report of the special two-person inves tigative committee she appointed to review the need for a K-12 school at fie des Chene s? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nister of Edu cation. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, yes I have. MR. G.

FILMON: Is the Minister in a position to share the report with the Seine River School Division School Board and the members of the House on this side? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr . Speaker, I have jus t this last week communicated with the school division that the report is in and that I would like to share the inform ation with them. We are in the process of set ting up a meeting, I think within the next week or two, with the school board to shar e the inform ation that is in that report. MR. G. FILMON: The other part of the que stion, Mr.

Speaker, was of course when members on this side could also receive a copy, but my third part of the qu estion is, what was the amount of the fees that were char ged by the two- person committee that reviewed this matter for the government? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr . Speaker, I don't have the exact dollar figure in mind since it related to the amount of time that they were going to spend review ing the matter. I will take that as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr .

Speaker, my que stion is to the Honour able Minister of Commun ity Services and it's about a specific individual, a severely disabled citizen of Manitoba by the name of Michael Ku rnarsky, with whose case I know the Minister is familiar and whose case is at the centre of a numb er of repr esentations that have been made to the Minister by the CAM R, the Canadian Association of the Mentally Retarded. I would ask the Minister if he can advise the House what is the status of the fund ing request made on Mr .

Kur narsky's behalf and what is the status of the CAMR's request for a meeting with him on this and a number of other sub jects? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Com munity Services. HON. L. EVANS: The particular individual that the member refers to, Mr . Speaker, is an individual that has been looked after, I suppose, on a trial basis by a voluntary group for about a year.

My advice is that because of the various difficulties that this individual has, he requires treatment on a one-on-one basis. 314 5 Ther efore the cost may be in the order of $35,000 per year for the care of one person who has these hand ic aps and it seemed to us this was a very costly type of expenditur e considering that there are not enough funds right now for doing all the things that we would like to do to help the physically and the mentally handicapped in this province.

So our incli nation is that there must be some other way, sur ely, of helping this person without having to have a one-on-one situation which would be very very costly, indeed, in our point of view. Nevertheless, we're prepar ed to review it further but my incli nation is that this is a very very expens ive proposal made to us. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr . Speaker, care of the ill, unfor tunate, disabled, and handicapped is always expen sive and there's no arguing that point. The figure is $24,000 not $35,000, but the point is, Mr .

Speaker, that representations have been made to the Minister from the CAMR which provide ratio nale for sup port of this kind. There's always a trade-off in these situations. The altern ative proposed by the Minister would cost nearly as much. Residents in the Dash residence where Mr. Ku rnarsky was living costs nearly as much ancl the qu estion basica lly is when will he give an under taking to sit down with the advocates of Mr . Ku rnarsky's case and the CAMR and discuss this matter? Re presentations have been made to him on the sub ject since April 22nd, Mr . Speaker, and the private funding is running out.

HON. L. EVANS: Well, I can advise the honour able member, Mr . Speaker, that I have alr eady met with a delegation some many weeks ago on this very prob lem and we spent a long time discussing this. I believe it's the Autistic Society of Man itoba. I may not have the proper name but it is a group that's directly involv ed with this type of disability. I consider that group very well represented the interests of this individual. In addition to that, we've had correspondence with many other people apart from CAMR. MR. L. SHERMAN: Can I ass ume then, and those who are advocating help for Mr .

Ku rnarsky, that the Minis ter has given his answer - that, no, their request for that funding will not be accepted? HON. L. EVANS: Well, Mr . Speaker, we're prepared to look at other options. I believe we've indicated this by correspondence to, I think, from my deputy to one individual who is concerned. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for St. Nor bert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr . Speaker, my qu estion is to the Go vern ment Ho use Le ader, the Honour able Attorney-General. Could he indicate how many more bills he intends that the govern ment will be introduc ing in this Session? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, in fact, I sent a

note to the Mem ber for Tu rtle Mo untain that he will have received today, na ming or listing appr oximately five or six bills which may yet be introduced. I menti oned ther e were amendments to The Bu ilders Lien Act, Conflict of Interest, but probably for Second Reading only and two or th ree other bills of the nature of amend ments; one to The Rivers and Streams Act. So that information has been given to the Op position House Leader and may be seen by the Member for St. Norbert either today or tomorrow. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government Hous e Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr .

Speaker, would you please call second reading on Bill No. 22? SECOND RE ADING - GOVERNMENT BILL BILL NO . 22 - THE MANITOBA LOTTERIES FOUND ATION ACT HON. l. DESJARDINS presented Bill No. 22,

Loi sur la Fondation manitobaine des loteries, The Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Act, for Second Reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Tha nk you, Mr . Speaker. As an introduction to the second reading of Bill 22, The Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Act, I would like to state that the proposed legislation is perm issive and enabling legislation giving the government the ability to become more act ively involved in monitoring, con trolling and operating gaming operati ons in Manitoba.

The intent of the legislation is to provide maximum controls and regulations on gaming operations to ensure the maximum amount of money possible is earned for char itable projects. This legislation is not intended in any way to prej udge the recommenda tions from his Honour, Judge Jewers, acting as com missioner of the inquir y into private operators and lotteries. This legislation, if passed, will not be pro claimed as law until Judge Jewers' report has being received and reviewed.

It is the intention of strengthening the controls of the Manitoba Lotteries and streamlining the operation of the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Act and is being introduced to replace the Manitoba Lotteries and Gaming Control Act. The Act will set up a corporation called the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation which will assume the powers and respon sibility of the Manitoba Lotteries and Gaming Control Comm ission and the Lotteries and Gaming Licensing Board. The Board will be made up of no less than nine members. app ointed by Order-in-Council, reporting through the chair man to the Minister responsible for Lotteries.

Other changes in the legislation include giving the Foundation the auth ority to run lottery sche mes for char ities in those situations where the Foundation felt such a lottery would be justified but the char ity is 8 June, 1982 incapa ble of running it themselves. The legislation also gives the Foundation the auth ority to aud it the books of all vendors involved in the sale and distribution of lottery tickets. This includes an audit of all expenses as well as revenues from lottery sales.

The legi slation also pr ovides the Lieutenant- Governor-in -Council with the ability to direct lottery profits into the general revenue of the consolidated fund for any pu rpose the Lieut enant Governor -in-Council may determine. I want to add at this time that there's no change in policy. As I said this is permissive legislation and it might be that after the recommendation of Judge Jewers tha t this might be necessary, but ther e has not been any intention of using the money for anything else than is being used for at this time.

The thrust of the legislation is to give the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation direct control over the operation of gaming activities in the Province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Memb er for Virden, that debate be adjour ned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Government House Leader. 314 6 HON. R. PENNER: Mr . Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Health, that Mr .

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the Ho use resolve itself into a Comm it tee to consider the supp ly to be granted to Her Majesty. I unde rstand there'll be the one Comm ittee on the Exec utive Council Estimates' meeting, I pre sume , in committee room. MOTION presented and carried and the Hous e resolved itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honour able Memb er for River East in the Chair for Executive Council. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Fort Rouge. HON. R. PENNER: Tha nk you, Mr .

Speaker, ther e seems to be an agreement that ther e is just the one Committee which, although it started in Comm ittee, would normally, by precedent, finish in Comm ittee. Ther e is an agreement, by leave, the Committee of Supp ly sitting on the Estimates of the Executive Council will continue in the House. -(lnterj-e ction) Yes, by leave. MR. SPEAKER: By leave, the Honourable Memb er for River East. SU PPLY - EXECUT IVE COUNC IL MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: I call the Com mittee to order. We're considering the Estimates of the Executive Council, Item 1. (

a) Premier and President

Tuesday, 8 June, 19 82 of the Council's Salary. Honour able Leader of the Op position. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, when we adjourned last evening the Memb er for Turtle Mou ntain was in the midst of starting a discussion with the First Minis ter about resources and matters of that nature and because he's in Washington today with the delegation of the Federal Govern ment and the provincial repre sentatives on the Garrison matter, I will attempt tc carry on with some of his line of qu estioning, although somewhat at a disadvantage in the sense that he has a more intimate knowledge of the line of qu estioning he wished to pur sue, which was cut off when the Com mittee rose last evening.

There were statements made, of course, dur ing the cour se of the election campaign and prior ther eto by the First Minister and by some of his colleagues about alleged "resource giveaways" that were being partici pated in or perpetrated by the previous administra tion, and from time to time this generalized term was used with respect to the negotiations on Alcan, the potash negotiations, the que stion of the Abitibi long term agreement and matters of that natu re.

I'm sur e that the First Minister will not deny this because I've got some exa mples of his comments here with me about repetition of the term, "resource giveaways." No w that he's been in office for six months and now that we've had the advantage, Mr.

Chairm an, of qu es tioning rather closely his Mini ster of Mines and Ener gy, and finding out from him that he wasn't aware of any resource giveaways that he could speak of in the negotiations, partic ularly on mega projects, could the First Minister enlighten the Com mittee as to what resource giveaways he has come across that he would like to give us detail upon? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Premier. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Cha irman, the prime example is the one of Tantalum Mines. HON. S.

LYON: Would the First Mini ster care to give us some detail on Tantalum Mine which would, according to his light s, qu alify it as a resource giveaway? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Chairman, the facts speak well for the mselves and they've been freq uently related in this House, not jus t by myself but by other members. The foregoing of the picking up of an interest which indeed should have been picked up, an option in Tan talum Mines, the failure on the part of the previous government to do so, and the loss of subsequent earn ings as a result thereof. HON. S.

LYON: Would the First Minister care to qu an tify what that alleged loss of earnings would be? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Cha irman, I would suggest that it might be wise for the Leader of the Oppo sition to ask the various qu estions he has or to make the comments, so that I can bank my response in one total response. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Chairman, I'm not the one laying the indictment that there was a resource giveaway; it's my honour able friend. I asked him to cite an exam ple. He cites the example of Trout Lake. We're all waiting with baited breath to hear how Trout Lake was a resource giveaway.

Let him give us all the detail he can. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Chairman, I've just indicated that Tantalum is an example, Trout Lake is an exam ple and it's our view that the negotiations that were under way req uired su bsequent renegotiation by the gov ernment pertaining to the potash and to the Alcan and to the interim Inter-Tie. That is presently under way and certainly, there's been ample opportu nity to dis cuss that and the information in regard to the su bse qu ent completion of those negotiations are not completed. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Chairman, let's deal with these matters seriati m.

The First Minister has said that the Trout Lake project represented a resource giveaway. I would like to hear the evidence that he could call in supp ort of that proposition. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Cha irman, in pertaining to Tantalum first, the record is very clear -(I nterjec tion)- Wel l then, I gather that the Leader of the Op position is conceding that Tantal um indeed was a giveaway and we can dismiss the discussion pertain ing to Tant alum. There is no qu estion as to the gross nature of the giveaway in Tantal um.

If indeed the government had not been defeated in '77, we would have picked up the option pertaining to Tanta lum. The Province of Manitoba would have been sub sequently much better off as a result thereof. For detail, Mr. Cha irman , there has been consider a ble discussion in the Legislature at various times per taining to that and in fact the former Mines Minister, who the Leader of the Op position has eloq uently referred to as a very fine represen tative, the former Mr . Green, freq uently pointed out the gross giveaway per taining to Tant alum.

The Leader of the Oppo sition doesn't place much credibility in the statements that are made by members of our government. I'm sur e that he is prepared to accept the words of the previous Mines Minister, who he has heralded with great elo qu ence this last while as a very fine spokesperson.

I refer the Leader of the Op position, particularly, to the statements on page 3,643 of Hansard, May 19 th, 19 81. 3147 Pertaining to Hud son Bay Mining and Smelting, it's our view that, in view of the value of the pu blic share it shou ld not have been sold as, indeed, it was for the inter est that was realized by the Province of Mani toba pertaining to same, tha t the share was diluted to 25 percent interest in respect to Trout Lake. HON. S. LYON: How much did the people of Mani toba lose as a result of these alleged giveaways tha t the First Minister is talking about? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chair man, that is going to be reflected over the passage of years in respect to potential profits that would be earned by Trout Lake. I have no doub t that the present situation is a tempor ary situation, that with the passage of years will be well demonstrated. Ob viously, when an interest is

Tuesday, 8 June, 1982 reduced fro m 40-s ome percent down to 25 percent of a total mine, there is a su bstantial loss in profits and that will be reflected from year to year by way of reduced earnings insofar as the pu blic of Ma nitoba are concerned. It was the previous govern ment that reduced the earnings from the share from 48-49 percent down to 25 percent. The calcu lations can be easily made year by year, Mr . Chairman, in regard to Trout Lake. HON. S. LYON: Perhaps I can refresh the First Minis ter's memory. The re's a Free Press report dated October 21 st, 19 81, wherein he is reported as follows.

This is a report from Flin Flan dur ing the election campaign. Pawley said the Trout Lake project represents "a $76 million hole in Manitoban's pockets." He said the profits from the 20 percent share "could reach $90 million" but the province sold it for $14 million. It's giveaways like Trout Lake which weaken the Mani toba economy. They turn the development of our economy over to multinational corporations instead of allowing room for healthy joint ventur es between pu blic and private corpor ations.

They leave Manitoba at the mercy of those corpor ations' international prior ities, he said. ''I 'm not happy at all over the last four years with what happene d with MM R," Pawley said. Pawley said mineral profits gleaned by the govern ment incl uding an estimated $30 million by 19 89 from the government's remaining 27 percent interest in Trout Lake will be poured back into further develop ment.

Having had his memory refreshed, does the First Minister still hold to the view that the cost of this alleged giveaway could reach $90 million and could he advance any reason as to why Manitoba Mineral Resources decided to take that size of a shareholding? HON. H. PAWLEY: I have no doubt, Mr . Chairman, that over a space of time the loss to Manitoba will be very, very su bstantial, indeed may be in excess of that. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Cha irman, then I have to ask the First Minister, is he aware of the report that was given by Mr.

Wright, Ma nitoba Mineral Resources Corpor a tion, last Thur sday - I don't have the Han sard for it because it's not available yet - who was asked in that Com mittee what instructions had he been given in negotiating the shar e interests that the Province of Manitoba should take in Trout Lake.

He replied that the best of the instruction that he had been given by the previous governmen t was to do the best job that he could financially for the people of Manitoba and that the Minister didn't interfere in those guidelines that were given to the Mani toba Mineral Resources Co rpo ration and that the deal that was made with Hud son Bay Mining and Sme lting had to be a better deal, said Mr . Wright, than if the government , thr ough Ma nitoba Mineral Resou rces and Granges, had gone on their own, and tha t Mr.

Wright still thinks that this was a better deal than Granges and the government going on their own. No w that was a statement that was made as recently as last Thur sday in the Utilities Com mittee by Mani toba Mineral Resou rces. Is my honour able friend, the First Mini ster, saying that Mr . Wright doesn't know what he's talking about? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Ch airman, Hu dson Bay Min ing and Smelting indeed does a numb er of concen trates for a numb er of companies inclu ding Sher ritt Gordon without ownership interest in same. HON. S.

LYON: Well, having heard that non sequitur, would the First Minister care to respond to the sum mary that I have ju st given as to wha t Mr . Wright said were the facts of the case with respect to Trout Lake; namely, that Manitoba Mineral Resou rces made the best deal that they could with the Hud son Bay Mining and Smelting Com pany on behalf of the people of Ma nitoba, and that the kind of a deal tha t he proposes would not have been in the pu blic interest of the peo ple of Ma nitoba. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr .

Chairman, that depends a great deal on the price and these decisions are ones that must indeed be taken by the pub lic-elected representa tives and I don't think that the Leader of the Op position should be attempting to hide behind the skirts of Mr . Wright or anyone else that was in a tech nical position advising the previous govern ment. HON. S. LYON: Mr .

Cha irman, I'm not trying to hide behind anyone's skirts, I'm asking some que stions of the First Minister based on evidence that was given to a Com mittee of this Legislature less than a week ago, which is totally counter to the wild rhetorical state ments that this Minister was making dur ing the elec tion, and I'm asking him now that he's been in office six months is he willing to concede that the deal that was negotiated with Trout Lake is a better deal than what he was proposing wildly in October? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Ch airman, no I' m not pre pared to concede and I want to advise the Leader of the Opp osition that we're more interested in proceed ing on into the futur e rather than rehashing the past. 3148 HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr. Ch airman, if I'd made as many false statements dur ing the election cam paign as the First Minister did, I'd be interested in proceed ing on with the futur e and having nobody dredge up those statements from the past too, so I can under stand his recalcitrance, Mr .

Chairman, in wanting to deal with the former statements that he made, but notwithstanding his recalcitrance, we're going to carry on in any case.

If the Manitoba Mineral Resources Corpor ation negotiated this deal and said that it was the best deal in the inter ests of the people of Mani toba, given the guidelines tha t they were given to do that kind of a deal, is the First Minister saying now that he's going to retire the Mem bers of the Board of the Manitoba Min eral Resources and change the whole grou p-over into some ideological bunch of puppets who will do what he wants rather than serve the pu blic interest? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Ch airman, I think that the Min ister of Energy and Mines is here to provide the detailed inform ation since this did come up in Com mittee. I was not present at the Com mittee Hearing tha t is the subject of the discussion. The Minister of Mines was and is qu ite anxious to respond to the claims that the Leader of the Oppo sition makes aris-

Tuesday, 8 June, 19 82 ing out of the Comm ittee Hearings. HON. S. LYON: Mr . Chairman, ju st so that we don't get you, Sir, into the same kind of ball up that occurred last evening with people trying to carry the ashes for the First Minister when the Fir st Min ister is being asked qu estions, let me say that my qu estions are posed to the Fir st Min ister. If he wants to take advice from his Ministers, let him take advice from his Minis ters, competent or incompetent as they may be, but, Mr .

Chairman, I think the First Minister would even agree, notwithsta nding the bad advice he gets from his seatmate, that when statements that he has made are qu oted back to him, that he should be in a position to answer for himself. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Cha irman, we have no hesita tion in the view that the Trout Lake deal was a poor one.

I was not atten ding the Com mittee meetings; I understand, in fact, the Leader of the Op position was not attending those Comm ittee meetings either, but I'm prepared to bank the specific qu estions that the Leader of the Opp osition has because this is debate involving Ministerial Salary and it is my underst anding that is the common practice. HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr . Ch airman, I'm quite pre pared to wait as well for the Hansard to come out from last Thur sday's meeting, because we won't then be arguing about various interp retations of what was said, and I think the record will be very clear.

I wel come the Min ister's opportu nity offered to debate this on another opp ortu nity and I admit ther e will be other opportun ities such as Sup pleme ntary Supply and so on, when we can look at the record of wha t Mr . Wright said without the benefit of the

interpretation of any one and have that clear. Now. Mr . Chairman, leaving that in abeyance and leaving in abeyance the Fir st Min ister's allegation that there was a loss of some $76 million, which is not borne out by any facts of which we're aware, I'd like to refer the Fir st Minister to the Mega Projects, so- called; that is, the potash mine, the Western Power Grid and so on.

I believe I heard the First Minister say a few minutes ago that because negotiations were going on that it was impossible for the government, in the inter ests of negotiations, to detail some of the concerns that they might have about some of the terms and conditions of the Mega projects. When does the First Min ister feel that he will be in a position to talk freely to the Hous e about, for instance, the Potash Agreement?

Has the First Minister any concerns at the present time about the Potash Agreement now that he's fully seized of all of the facts including the memorandum that the former Min ister in charge of negotiations left with his successor, the Min ister of Mines and Energy? Are there any con cerns that the Fir st Minister has foun d in the draft of the Agreement on Potash that didn't occur to him before? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr .

Cha i rman, it's my understand ing that the Potash Agreement has already been dis cussed qui te thor oughly dur ing the Estimates, just this past week, of the Min ister responsible for Mines and Energy. HON. S. LYON: Yes but, Mr . Chairman, the First Min ister is the man who signed a document called, in different terms, the New Deal for Manitobans, the Promise to Manitobans, the NOP Election Man ifesto, and so on, in which he talked in vari ous pages, and I can read them back to him, if he wishes, about the alleged resource giveaways.

That's what the topic is, jus t so we can refresh the First Minister's memory, about the various resource giveaways that he was talking about in the cou rse of the election campaign and now some six or seven months later, we merely wan! the First Minister, girded as he must be by the facts and information that he has obtained since com ing into office, with a perhaps clearer sense of respon sibility than he had when he was Leader of the Op posi tion, we would like him to tell us about what resource giveaways were implicit or part of the negotiations with respect, first of all, with the potash mine. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Mr . Chairman. we have informa tion that the previous governme nt, indeed, were informed by their own negotiators of the natur e of the giveaways involving the potash development. That information is at hand. At the appr opria te time we will release that information, Mr . Ch airman. HON. S. LYON: Mr .

Chairman, all the First Minister is then saying is that the concerns that the previous government had that were on the negotiating table as a result of advice that we had received are the same concerns that this government has and, in fact, that they have found no new concerns that would support their alle gation about resource giveaways? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Chairman, again the Leader of the Opp osition doesn't appear to have understood or heard correctly.

Ther e were very, very substantial and serious concerns that were raised by those that were hired by the previous government, the advisors to the prev ious government, in rela tionsh ip to the giveaway that was involved in regard to the loose terms in regard to the IMC contract and at the appropriate time we will release that information when it is in the public interest that same be done. 314 9 HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr .

Chairman, then what the First Mi nister is saying is that the concerns that his govern ment has are precisely the same concerns that were outlined to our government and that were on the negotiating table at the time the government changed. Has the First Mi nister got any other concerns that jus tified his saying, before the election campaign, without benefit of the advice that was later given to him, that ther e were resource giveaways involved in the potash negotiations? What was he basing his comments on? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Chairman, we are dealing with the natur e of the agreement.

What we are attempting to do - these were not concerns that were shar ed by the previous govern ment. Indeed, the previous gov ernment were ignoring the advice that they were receiving. This government is not ignoring the con cerns that were raised by the advisors pert ainin g to the negotiation of the Potash Agreement and, Mr . Chairman, we are attempting to tighten up those con-

ditions to ensur e that ther e's a maximization of pu blic return. That is the process that's under way and unfor tuna tely the previous government was not demon strating the concern that was being expr essed to them by their own advisors. HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr. Chairman, I would be inter ested to know how the First Minister of Mani toba, on the 7th or 8th of June, 19 82, can say what was in the minds of the Government of Ma nitoba prior to November 30, 19 81, when it was negotiating a deal, which in the hands of his govern ment, has seemed to have fallen dead in the water.

Now, how can the First Minister speculate as to whether or not our govern ment was acting upon advice that we were receiving from our advisors? What tittle of evidence can the First Minister propose to sup port that wild all egation? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Chairman, as I've indicated there will be ap prop riate docume ntation at the appropr iate time. HON. S. LYON: Well then, Mr . Chai rman, I must ask, has the First Mini ster's view as to the app ropriate time cha nged as to when the pu blic should be told about the negotiations that are ongoing? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr .

Cha irman, we are attempting to ensur e that we get a devel opment that is satisfac tory to Manitobans. We're working on the basis of the information, that indeed was good information, that was supp lied to the previous govern ment. We're tak ing tha t informa tion much more seriously than did indeed the previous government. When we reach a point, Mr . Cha irman, of a hopeful ly satisfactory con cluding agreement, then we'll be prepared to defend our actions and our comments at that time. At this stage, we're in the process of negotiation. HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr.

Cha irman, there was a time, was there not, when the First Minister was advocating that, and his colleagues were advocating that there should be public hearings on the negotiations into the potash mine? Does the First Minister still hold to that view? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Or der please. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Chairman, I would expect that at the appropr iate time, there will indeed be pu blic hearings. HON. S. LYON: I would take it, Mr.

Chair man, that if it was valid for the First Mini ster, as Leader of the Opp o sition, to call for pu blic hearings on the potash negoti ations a year ago, tha t concept would still be valid now, would it not? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairm an, the big difference is that we have never claimed to have a deal practically negotiated. The previous governme nt claimed, Mr .

Chair man, to have an agreement that was completed and was practically wrapped up in ribbon, as I recall it, to the extent that a great deal of advertising was spent just prior to the election of last year leaving that very clear impr ession with all Manitobans that the Alcan, 8 June, 1982 that the Inter-Tie, that the potash deal were ju st about consum mated, that everybody could rest qu ite easy. In deed, we were sitting on a pot of gold, as I recall the reference that repeatedly was demonstrated to us, compliments of the taxpayers of the Province of Mani toba, Mr .

Cha irman, so tha t Manitobans were cer tainly left with the impression, in this Hous e, by way of advertising from every qu arter, that these projects were just about consum mated, that everybody could breathe easily, that there was a great futur e ahead , that the projects were practically ther e. Mr. Cha irman, we have not and pu rposely have not left any such impr ession with Manitoba ns. We are in the process of hard negotiation. We are not negotiat ing with our backs against the wall politically nor are we going to place ourselves in that position. HON. S. LYON: Mr .

Chairman, did the First Mini ster write the following Letter to the Editor which ap peared in the Winnipeg Free Press on June 13 th, 19 81? I qu ote from the final two paragraphs: "I want Manitoba's potash to be developed on the terms that are best for our province. Let the Conserva tives show whether they are negotiating such terms. Ther e has been much talk about the dr aft definitive agree ment but it is being kept secret. The govern ment's Toronto accountant's reports are secret. The cost, price and other assum ptions are not known.

Don Craik should accept the call for public hearings made by Vic Schroeder, MLA for Rossemere, and supp orted by the Free Press." It is signed, Howard R. Pawley, Winnipeg. Did the First Minister make that state ment? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I thought I said just a few moments ago that at an appropr iate time there will be pu blic hearings but we find that the alleged agreement was far from being consuma ted, despite the impr ession that was left in this Chamber by the previous governme nt. They left an impr ession that did not bear up insofar as the progress that had been made. 31 50 HON. S. LYON: Mr .

Cha irman, perhaps the First Min ister, having obviously changed his point of view about the necessity or need for public hearings, per haps could he tell us, on that same topic, whether or not his government which used to make a great argu ment about insuf ficient royalty structure for potash, maybe he could tell us whether his government is going to change the proposed royalty structure on potash that was being negotiated with IMC or is it going to do as it did with respect to oil royalties, condemn them when they were reduced by the gov ern ment and by our government and then keep them in place when they get into office and say they're fine for attracting industry?

Is that what we're going to see; a du plication of that kind of hypocrisy? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Cha irman, we are intending certainly to review, and the Minister has indicated that he is reviewing the rate of return insofar as Man itoba's concerned. We'll also be monitoring what is taking place in Saskatchewan to ensur e our competitive ness. We have clearly indicated that maxi mization of the pu blic return is the important ingr edient as far as Manitobans are concerned. There is no point, Mr .

Tuesday, 8 June, 19 82 Chair man. proceed ing with developmen t if the bene fits of that developm ent are not realized in a maximum way for Man itobans. That is a fundament al commit ment. The Min ister has com mitted himself to review those terms in the negotiations that is presently under way. That was not indeed the position of the previous government of the Province of Man itoba. HON. S. LYON: I'm afraid, Mr . Chairman, that the Firt Min ister is demonstrating his lack of knowledge. real ly. of what was happening with respect to the mega projects.

That has been apparent thr oughout the term of this House so we won't embarr ass him further. except to say this, that the Min ister jus t fin ished making a gratuitous statement to this Hou se to the effect that he wasn't tryi ng to lead on the people of Manitoba to the effect that ther e was some agreement that was in place and just about ready to be signed and so on. that he wasn't about to do that with respect to the people of Mani toba, but rather he was going to negotiate. not with his back to the wall. and all of these other macho flouri shes that he attached to his comments.

I remind the First Min ister that his government turned out a Prospectus. not to the people of Mani toba but to the borrowers who were supporting a $200 million loan that the Government of Man itoba was tryi ng to make. I qu ote from page seven of that Pros pectus. and this Prospectus, Mr . Ch airman, was dated the 23rd of December. 19 81 and was attached to the Prospectus that was issued on March 8th, 19 82.

So the Fir st Min ister, having had the full knowledge, as he now alleges, the fact that there was no agreement in place and so on. that the negotiations were not to his satisfaction and so on, here's what he and his gov ernment said in the Prospectus on page seven: "In May, 19 81 , the province entered into a Memo randum of Agreement with International Minerals and Ch emical Corporation Canada Limited (I MC), relat ing to construction of a $640 mil lion potash mine and refinery in western Man itoba. with a proposed annu al prod uction capacity of 2 million tons of potash and providin g for joint ownership of the facility by Mani toba Mineral Resou rces Limited , a Crown corpora tion. and IM C, (See gross investment)." Mr.

Ch airman. there was nothing in that agreement, other than what I read at the time I made my remarks on this Prospe ctus. to su ggest to the borrower or to suggest to those loaning money, to whom my hon our able friend and his colleagues were rattling their tin cup down in New York or to the people of Mani toba, that there was anything but go ahead on that.

Indeed, they didn' t tell in this Prospectus. they didn't tell the people of Man itoba, they didn't tell the bor rowers that they had al lowed the Memo randum of Agreement that they were touti ng in this Prospectus to expir e on the 15 th of Decem ber. 19 81. So I can agree with the First Min ister that there is less chance of that mine happening in Man itoba now. not because of anything that occurred prior to Novem ber 30th. 19 81, but because of the misfeasance. nonfeasance. malfeasance and sheer incomp etence of what has occurred since Novem ber 30, 19 81.

Would the First Min ister care to dilate upon why that statement was made in the prospectus if he wasn't tryi ng to hold out to people loan ing money to Mani- 315 1 toba, and to the people of Man itoba that agreement was still in place? You can't have it both ways. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Chairman. that was dealt with several times at some length by the Min ister of Finance. HON. S. LYON: I'm asking the First Min ister for his view as to why that statement was made in the Pros pectus when it is in direct contradiction of what he jus t finished saying in this House a few minutes ago. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr .

Chairman, the Minister of Fina nce has dealt with it at some length. I' m satisfied with the responses he provided in this House. HON. S. LYON: Mr . Chairman, the First Min ister may be satisfied with the response of his Min ister of Finance, but I'm not and the people of Manitoba aren't going to be.

Fur thermore, I'm not satisfied with the First Minister stan ding up in this House, a matter of a few minutes ago, and making a statement which is contradicted by the very Prospectus which his government turns out with respect to the touting of a potash mine, which he now says wasn't anywher e near the final stages of negotiat ion. He can have it one way or he can have it the other. The House prefers the truth. Can we now hear it from the First Min ister? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: If the Memb er for Pem bina would like to speak, would he stand? The Honour able Leader of the Op position. HON. S.

LYON: We're waiting for the First Minister to tell us how it is that a few minutes ago he could say in this House that his government did nothing to lead the people of Man itoba to believe that a potash mine was just on the verge of happe ning, when in fact in the Prospectus that is precisely what the Govern ment of Man itoba did by saying that there was in existence a Me morandum of Unde rstanding which the First Min ister and his colle agues knew they had allowed to expire on the 15 th of December. 19 81. HON . .H. PAWLEY: Mr .

Chair man, we have indicated, indeed I indicated a few moments ago that we are continuing the negotiations. We're continuing those negotiations in good faith. I'm not aware of my Minis ter of Finance. my Min ister of Energy and Mines indi cating other than the negotiations are under way; that the terms are under review. We have not uttered statements to leave the impression that agreement was just around the corner. HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr .

Chairman, then perhaps the First Minister, if he's having trou ble with this qu estion, as I know he obviously is, perhaps the First Min ister can tell us why that statement was include d in the prospectus dated March 8, 19 82 when, in fact, the Me morandum of Agreement. which he was touting in the prospectus. had been allo wed to ex pire on the 15 th of December. Is that kind of state ment or is that kind of information consistent with fu ll reporting that the Securitie s and Exchange Comm ission in the Un i ted States expects from provincial governments?

Tuesday, 8 June, 1982 HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Ch airman, I'm not aware of any comments fro m the Securitie s Comm ission in the Un ited States at all in regard to the prospectus. If indeed they were concerned, it seems to me that they would have released information or lodged with us the complaint s pertai ning to the prospectus. The only complai nts that we've heard about the prospectus has been from the former Mini ster of Finance and the Leader of the Opp osition. Mr . Chairman, there is quite a difference between a Memor andum of Agreement and a firm, completed agreement.

It's my understanding indeed that there were aspects of the original Memor andum of Agreement that wer en't abided by as per that Me moran dum Agreement. The re's a large difference between a Memor andum of Agreement and a fina l agreement. HON. S. LYON: Well, if the Fir st Min ister, Mr . Chair man, refuses to come to grips with his own statements which are in contradiction to what he says in a formal way in the prospectus then he and his conscienc e will have to live with that probl em.

I move along now because, obviously, he has a very convenient amnesiac memory as to what he has said even five or seven minutes before. Bu t, if he wasn't touting to the people of Manit oba this agreement, why was he touting it, I say to the borrowers and he has, let the record show, Mr . Ch airman, he has no answer to that qu estion. Now, with respect to the Alcan negotiations, Mr. Chairman.

Can the First Minister, who was the one who was talking during the election campai gn about resource giveaways in his party propa ganda, can he identify any problem with respect to those negotia tions in the nature of a giveaway except what has alr eady been identified by the Mi nister of Mines and Ener gy, a legitimate negotiating concern about what happens with respect to the recapture of the units of the power plant at the end of 35 years. Are there any other aspects of that negotiating agreement that fall into the Fir st Minister's categorization as resource giveaways? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr .

Chairman, the conc ern involves, as the Leader of the Opp osition knows full well, the agreement, its potential impact insofar as other hydro consu mers, those that are indeed pur chasing hydro, it's a pertinent and major concern to us. Tha t is the very reason that nego tiations are un der way. It's very easy to indeed sign the first agreement that comes one's way if you're not concerned about the potential impact that might have pert aining to other hydro users in the province. HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr . Ch airman, this is an inter esting approach.

Perhaps the First Min ister would care to identify the negative impacts upon the hydro ratepayers of Manit oba as a result of Alcan coming to Manitoba and taking 400 megawatts of power per day over a 35-year period at a rate and under conditions to be negotiated. Would the First Min ister care to expand upon what the preju dice is that would result to the hydro ratepayers in Manit oba? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman, I say this regret ful ly, that the Leader of the Opp osition should be conscious of the fact that we are attempting to nego tiate the best possible deal for the ratepayers of the Prov ince of Manit oba. The Leader of the Opp osition should be giving us suppor t in that respect because there are major concerns perta ining to what happens in the futur e with the esca lation of the costs of con structing hydro plants.

There is no que stion that in the futur e that hydro plant construction could potentially cost $5 billi on, $10 billi on and during the term of this agreement that is proposed, what will be the impact on all other hydro users in the Prov ince of Man itoba that must contribut e toward that inflated cost of hydro plant s in the futur e if, indeed, a major user of hydro in the Province of Manit oba is exclud ed from contribut ing to that additional cost. Secondly, Mr . Chairman, there is a major concern that I think the majority of Manit obans feel, properly and rightly . Has lnco the same kind of claim?

Does I nco have the same right, because I think that lnco has as large or indeed a larger interest than indeed ln co? In fact, it may very well be that lnco was in the process. For all I know maybe the former govern ment was going to give lnco private owner ship of a dam on the Nelson River. Why not? Or in the Bu rntwood River or any other river in Nor thern Manit oba. So that, Mr. Chai rman, determined -(I nterjection)- MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: So, Mr . Chairman, there are very serious matters pertaining to the publi c interest in the Province of Ma nitoba.

We intend, through the process of negotiation, to qui etly and firmly carry on with those negotiations and ensur e that there's a fair deal for Man itobans and indeed at the same time to, if it is possible on satisfactory terms, to encour age the locat ing of such projects in Manit oba but not at the overall expense of the detriment of Man itobans as a whole and other hydro users. 315 2 HON. S. LYON: Mr .

Chairman, is the First Min ister tryi ng to tell us that he has had advice from Manit oba Hydro which would be contrary to anythin g we heard at the Public Util ities Com mittee when Hydro was repor ting that the negotiations with Alcan somehow or other would be disadvantageous to the hydro rate payers in Man itoba? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Chair man, unf ortuna tely Manit oba Hydro was exc lude d from those negotia tions.

The negotiations took place under the full aus pices, as I understand it, of the former Min ister of Mines respo nsible for the Manit oba Hydro System and Man itoba Hydr o was by passed in those negotiations. HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr . Chairman, I understand the contrary. I was there and the Mini ster of Min es and Energy was yipping and yapp ing as a Memb er of the Opposition at the time but Hydro was involved in the negotiations through at least the Ch air man. I can't name all of the other people. I know that Mr . Jarvis, when he joined the staff of Hydro, was also involved as he is still involved .

So, my honour able friend, the Min ister of Mines and Ener gy who's quick at giving misin formation to the Hous e and to the Fir st Min ister

Tuesday, 8 June, 1982 should perhaps keep his private thoug hts to himself until he app rises himself of the facts. I'm still asking the First Minister. however, under the category of resource giveaways and it was in his notorious "Clear Choi ce for Manit obans" brief where he talked about "Man itoba's natural resources could provide us with economic security for generations to come but this can only happen with resource devel opment for Man itobans, not resource giveaways.

Lyon's Conservatives have been willing to sell off our resources to multi national corpora tions," hear all of the nice left-w ing trigger words in there, multinational corporations, to benefit their shareholder s. The wealth generated by our resource flows out of the province. The potential jobs in refining of products and the development of new technology are lost to Manit oba with Tory resource giveaways. Very simply, Mr . Chairman. we want the Fir st Min ister to identify in the Alcan deal what was the resource giveaway that he was alleging there? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr .

Chair man. it's been dealt with in some detail, I under stand, the entir e que stion of the buy-back pertained to the Hydro agreement. HON. S. LYON: Mr . Chairman. we alr eady acknowl edged that that was one item to be negotiated but tha t was hardly the su bstance of the whole agreement and may I, while I'm on my feet. Mr . Chairman, advise the First Min ister that it wasn't a que stion of Alcan ju st coming along to Manit oba and saying gee, we'd like to do you a favour and settle this plant in Manitoba.

The former govern ment had the abil ity, unlike this government, to go out and to talk to busine sses both within this province and outside of the province because we didn' t have the paranoiac hangups that my honour able friends seem to have about multina tional corporations and all of those trigger words that my honour able friends seem to have when they're in Opposition; then when they're in government they sit arou nd the same table and say they negotiate in good faith with the same multinationals that they condemn when they're out of office.

Then they have to send their Mi nister of Mines and Energy trott ing out to Alberta to console the oil compan ies that are doing a marvelous job of exploring in Manit oba because, quite rightfully, they have their pants frightened off them by these rhetorical flourish es of people like the Min ister of Mines and Ener gy and the some of the other left-wi ng advocates who get into my honour able friend's party to the dis advantage, not only of the public but. I may say, of the party. So we can understand this paranoiac syndrome that exists within the social ist party in Man itoba but that's not the point.

The point is can the First Minister iden tify any resource giveaway other than the alleged recapture of the plant at the end of the term that caused him to make the statement during the cam paign about resource giveaways. We're merely asking him to give some evidenc e in su pport of these rhetori cal flourishe s that he made during the campaign. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Chair man, it's alr eady been well docu mented, in our view it's a very big potential givewawy, $10 billion to $15 billion, that pertains to the Hydro bu y-back. Mr . Cha irman, I'd like to say a few words ... -(I nterjection)- MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order please. I would hope that the honour able members would allo w a clear hearing of the Prem ier jus t as I would hope tha t members on the government side would all ow a hear ing of the Leader of the Op position. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Ch airman, it disappoi nts me to hear the kind of references it disapp oints but it doesn't su rprise me being espoused by the Leader of the Opposition because the Leader of the Opp osition insists in not living within the world of reality at the present time. Mr .

Chairman. this government has had no problem whatsoever in deal ing with busi ness and the busine ss community. It may be that the Leader of the Op posi tion isn't very happy about that. It may, indeed, be the reason that members across the way are so obviously thin··skinned. It's either that they're very very thin skinned or they're still sma rting from the resul ts of the election of Novem ber 17 th. Manit obans can certainly choose which of the two. either they are thin- skinned or they are still suffering from sour grapes from the election of November 17 th or, indeed, both. I would kind of think, Mr .

Chairman, that it would be both because this government is acting in a constructive and a positive manner . Mr . Ch air man , I am not aware of complain ts from Alcan about the negotiations that are under way. Alcan has its interests and I anticipate that they will represent their interests as well as they possibly can in the interests of Alcan. But, Mr .

Chairman, I say to the Leader of the Opp osition that the responsibility of members in this Cha mber, because we represent Man itobans as a whole, is to negotiate as well in the interests of Manit obans as, indeed, Alcan is doing on behalf of the interests of Alcan. Mr. Chair man . if indeed, we accommodate our selves to a situation by which we do not negotiate on the basis of represent ing the public interest, then we will fail Manitobans. 315 3 I'm pleased, Mr .

Chairman, that the Min ister of Ene rgy and Mines and other Min isters are in the pro cess of such negotiations at the present time despite the fact that the aluminum industry worldwide has. indeed, gone for somewhat of a tailspin. Those nego tiations are continuing. Mr . Ch airman. Alcan hasn't cal led off the negotiations despite the fact that the world market perta ining to aluminum has gone into a tailspin, although I understand that in some ju risdic tions they have discontinued negotiations. In the Province of Manit oba the y are continuin g negotia tions and we continue negotiations with Alcan.

What more can be expected of a government but to repres ent the public interest? I've indicated the reservat ions we've had pert aining to the original agreement and those discussions are under way; those concerns have been related to Alcan. I suppose, Mr . Chairman, the simplest thing for us to do would be to sign the first deal that comes along. That would be the simplest. Then we would be able to say to members acr oss the way, we've signed the deal; we can all now relax; we've done our duty. Mr .

Chairman, I want to say to you and I expect, indeed, the signing of tha t deal might create a lot of relief in many, many qu arters and understandably.

The transaction that is completed by this government must, indeed, stand the light of day with the passage of years and the passage of decades because what we complete today not only affects our selves, but it affects those that follow us and this government, Mr . Ch airman, is not a government that is going to sign a contract on an expedient basis. We want a fair con tract, a contract that is arrived at thr ough firm negotia tions. We expect Alcan to negotiate firmly with us. We intend to negotiate firmly and fairly with Alcan. What more can be expected? Mr.

Ch air man, I want to also respond to wha t I think is an unfortuna te kind of comment on the part of the Leader of the Opp osition because it places into disr e pute Man itoba. He made some state ment - the Leader of the Op position can correct me if he chooses - a few moments ago that the Min ister of Energy and Mines was cra wlin g to Alberta to try to console the oil com panies in the Province of Alberta. Mr . Chairman, I noted in the Winnipeg Free Press this morn ing that Omega has, indeed, tripled its wells in the first qu arter of 19 82. Mr.

Chairman, there is an increased interest in respect to oil development in the Prov ince of Manitoba. Mr . Chairman, I think it's unfor tuna te the Leader of the Op position leaves some kind of false impression in this Cham ber that this govern ment has to travel to Alberta to reassur e the oil com panies when, indeed, tha t is not the case.

I know the Leader of the Op position, the former Min ister of Eco nomic Development and the Mem ber for Pembina don't like to see the New Democratic Party Govern ment carr ying on constructive and fair negotiations with the oil compan ies; it seems to trou ble them a great deal. But those negotiations are carr ying on, Mr . Chairman, and we're satisfied that they'r e carr ying on on an appr opriate bas is, that progress has been made, and indeed that is -(I nterjection)- Mr . Chairman, I do ask that the Memb er for Pembina - I find it difficul t to speak above his voice from his seat. MR.

DEPUTY CH AIRMAN: Or der please. If the Mem ber for Pembina wishes to speak, I will put him on a speaker's list. HON. H. PAWLEY: Well, Mr . Chairman, I don't intend to yell, to try to outshout members across the way. No consolation is req uired. Oil prod uction in the Prov ince of Manitoba is increasing well and I'm very pleased, Mr . Ch airman. I believe Man itobans are very pleased that, indeed, there is now a government that doesn't have to negotiate its back against the wall.

I trust that will not take place with our government and that we will have to negotiate from a position of expe diency or political weakness. Mr. Ch airman, we are prepared when negotiations either suc ceed or not succeed to fully jus tify our actions in detail and also to release the information that was made avai lable to the previous government that gave the previous government advice so that Ma nitobans can compare the actions of this govern ment, the act ions of the prev ious govern ment in respect to advic e that was provided to the prev ious government.

We're prepar ed to do that at the approp riate time. I'd give that to the Leader of the Op position. HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr . Ch airman, just on the last 19 82 point before we come to the more substantive point because I appear to have touched a very touchy nerve in the First Min ister when I talk about the need of this govern ment to reassure the private sector that it doesn't real ly mean what it says during the election and that, in effect, is what he is saying, because during the election he went around talking about resource giveaways to multi national corporations.

Now he has to deal with those multinational corporations and he, in effect, says to them as he jus t finished sayi ng in this Ho use, there's nobody over here but us decent peo ple; we don't really believe that social ist rhetoric that we put out during the campaign that talked about joint ventur es and talked about resource giveaways; we don't really believe that, chaps; we're just a good bunch of fellows here; jus t don't pay any attention to the NO P stuff; that's done for the rank and fi le.

That's what the First Min ister seems to be saying in the House now. 315 4 But I'll tell him why he has to reassure the oil com panies and the other parts of the private sector because his par ty when it meets annuall y with respect to public policies in Man itoba deals with resolutions of the following kind. Let me read to my honour able friend this resolution that was dealt with by his party under his leader ship when he was Premier back, I believe it was in February of 19 82, ju st a few short months ago.

Let me read the resolution and for the better edification of members opposite it's Resolution No. 82- 12 00- 1 and it reads as follows: "WHEREAS the New Democratic Party at the last two Provincial Convent ions and the National Convention passed motions to nationaliz e where and when necessary, this Convention must act in un ison to this motion. THEREFORE BE IT RE SOLVED THAT the Man itoba New Democratic Party, now the Gov ern ment of Man itoba, national ize Imperial Oil Canada Ltd., Gul f Oil, Shell Oil and Texaco Ltd .," unq uote. Now, that is a Res olution put in by the people of Chur chill.

The Mem ber for Springfield says - I suppose with his computer-like recollection - that the resolution didn't pass. My God, Mr. Chairman, it's fright ening that it's even discussed, let alone passed. We're in a democracy in this country, not -(I nterjection)- MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order please. HON. S. LYON: And if my honour able friend, the Memb er for Springfield, Mr .

Chairman, who interjects usually to the discomfort of the First Min ister, for good reaso n, if the Honour able Mem ber for Spri ngfield wants fur ther evidence as to why his colleagues on the front bench have to go out and qui et down industry, then it's because resolutions such as this are seriously debated at their conventions when they get -together in their left-wing conflabs and talk about the great Marxist world that they would like to inflict upon the people of Man itoba. Mr .

Chair man, there are dozens of other ex ample s that I could read to the First Minister to refresh his memory about the rather upsetting resolutions that he and his party regularly put forward in debate. In fact, I go back to the

Preamble of this resolution which states and I'm in no position to judge because I don't go to New Democratic Party conventions, but people

Tuesday, 8 June, 19 82 opposite do. Here's the

Preamble, "WHEREAS the New Democratic Party at the last provincial conven tions and the national convention passed motions to national ize where and when necessary." So I can only presume from that Pream ble that's what happened at the last two provincial conventions and the national convention of the New Democratic Party. Can it be unexpected, Mr.

Chairman, that strikes a fair amount of concern in the hearts of people in the private entrepreneurial system when they read that a party that has come into office in Ma nitoba is a party that says that it's prepared to nationalize where and when necessary and then goes on and talks about nationalizing Imperial Oil Canada, Gul f Oil, Shell Oil and Texaco?

Can you not und erstand the fact that the Min ister of Mines in his own words said not too long ago in this Hous e that he was going out to Alberta to talk to the oil companies, to reassure them that the royalty structure was going to stay in pla ce and tha t ManOil was not going to be a threat to them? He said those words in this House. -(I nterjection)- Yes well again, Mr . Ch airman, we don't need the Minister of Mines and Energy to interpr et his words. They're in Hansard, thank heaven. They're in Hansard, Mr . Chairman. I realize, Mr .

Ch airman, the complete sen sitivity of our social ist friends opposite, because they do have to reassure the private sector because of the very simple reason that has jus t been docu mented in this Hous e. They try to say to people they don't mean what they say during an election campaign. That's what they say to busi ness. Don't pay any attention to this stuff - this is what the First Min ister just finished saying - don't pay any attention to what we said about resource giveaways, we're going to negotiate with you in good faith, says he. Well, Mr .

Ch airman, I'm not going to take the time of the Hous e to read some of these other fright ening resolutions that his party debates as though they were something that is com monplace and so on. Maybe I should leave this topic just by reminding the First Min ister of Resolution 82- 12 00-16 and I'll just give him the operative part of that Resol ution.

"THEREFORE BE IT RE SOLVED THAT the NOP Governme nt of Manit oba undertake a study on the feasibility of distribution and marketing of natural gas in the province through a Crown corpora tion." And as the First Min ister goes out and speaks to Br andon and to the Cham ber and is palsy-walsy with all of the busine ss people which he's fully entitled to do to try to reassure them that he didn't rea lly, and his party doesn't really follow that policy. That's why they have to reassure the busi ness community and we don't hold anything against my honour able friends for this Jekyl l-Hyde position that they have.

We merely point it out from time to time that the Dr. Jekyll is turned into Mr. Hyde and vice versa, Mr. Ch airman . Their real message to busi ness is, don't bel ieve what we say during an election campaign when we're spr ead ing a bunch of rhetoric to get the voters excited. Don't believe a bunch of rhetoric about that. We'll deal with you and put all of that stuff behind you. Now, Mr .

Chairman, to get down to cases on the Alcan deal - and the First Min ister has yet to identify any resource giveaway in the negotiated Alcan deal - let me read to the First Minister again what he said in "Policies of the Manitoba New Democratic Party, A Clear Cho ice for Manitobans." This is under Energy: "Orderly development of northern generating stations would commence immediately. Adequa te plan ning and training would be undertaken to ensur e maximum benefits for Mani toba from hydro developme nt. The NOP will not allow Alcan owner ship of a hydr o electric plant.

Energy development, not energy giveaways, are the policy with greatest benefit to future generations of Man itobans." So now, Mr . Ch airman, the Fir st Minister says to us, in his usual bland way, usuall y missing the point of the que stion, but says to this committee and his words stay etched in Hans ard for all of us to benefit from in another year. "We're negotiating very well with Al can. Everythi ng's going along swimmingly," which is my term. not his, but that's the impact of what he is sayi ng. This is what we said during the election carr.paign.

The NOP will not allo w Alcan owner ship of a hydro electric plant. His Minister says, "Well, everyt hing's up for negotiation at the present time. Neither party is taking any preconceived position." Does that mean, as the Minis ter has been asked on a numb er of occa sions - this is my fir st que stion to the Fir st Min ister - that the NOP have abandoned their idea of not all ow ing Alcan ownership, or more accurately, partial ownership of Limestone? That's Numb er one. If that is the case, does that mean then, Mr .

Chair man, that the First Min ister and his colleagues have been told what, indeed, the previous government had been told? I read now from the Ann ual Report to Employees, 19 81 , by Alcan. Read ing from page 2 of that document. Quote: "Another internal development was the fur ther clarification of our strategy for smelter expa nsion and rebuildi ng. In this area our prioritie s are now firmly establ ished. The modernization and revitalization of our existing Canadian facilities must proceed in an orderly manner over the remainder of this century.

Expansion oppor tunities must be viewed in the context of this modern ization commitment. The se moderniz ation and production expansion strategies, predicated on our ownership of hydro electric power stations, remain intact. However, the timing of significant projects will have to be delayed as a result of cu rrent financial constraints. We are involved ... " I interject, Mr . Chairman, to say I'm read ing the whole paragraph to be fair.

I don' t want to be accused of quoting out of context because I want the First Min ister to realize the import of what the company is saying because I know in private they have been say ing it to him. "We are involved in ongo ing discussions with the Provincial Governme nts of Que bec, Man itoba and British Col umbia, so that when the time is ripe to move forward with our plans, we will have the necessary government and public supp ort." Unquo te. 315 5 Now, Mr.

Ch airman, my colleague, the former Min ister of Economic Developme nt, the Mem ber for Stur geon Creek, said in the House the other day that Al can and other large aluminum companies have to be pre pared, notwithsta nding the adm itted serious down turn in the economy as it affects the mineral indus try and affects the whole economy in Manitoba, notwith stand ing that, Alcan wants to be prepared when that market condition improves and God hopes that it does improve soon for the benefit of all people in this coun try. They've got to be prepared then to move ahead

Tuesday, 8 June, 1982 with the expansion. The y say, as we knew, that they are negotiating with Qu ebec, with British Columbia and with Manitoba. We know that the Man itoba negotiation is the only off seaboard plant that Alcan has ever contemplated. The reason for tha t is that Manitoba has an excess suppl y of energy which we can develop to the advantage of the people of Manitoba, to the advantage of Alcan, and provide at the same time, and this is something we never hear the honour able members across the way talk about.

Here is somethin g that is being held up by the negotiations and by the negotiating stance that apparently is still in place based upon this great NOP docu ment during the election that they won't nego tiate with Alcan about partial ownership of the plant. Here's what they're putting at jeopardy.

They're put ting at jeopardy something like the work, right now at peak, when that plant could be built, 19 0 carpenters; 300 elections; 230 iron workers: 60 rebar workers: 80 boilermak ers: 70 pipe welders for a total of 5 million man hour s of direct on-site employment, not includ ing extensive off-site fabrica tion. These, Mr. Chair man, are statements that are made by an official of Alcan who was speak ing to the Ann ual General Meet ing of the Winnipeg Construction Association in March of 19 82. Mr .

Ch airman, "The end cost of the pla nt," said this official in Mar ch, 19 82, "was $850 mill ion in 19 81 dol lars of which 60 to 70 percent could be spent in Mani toba. The smelter developm ent would employ up to 600 construction workers for a five-year period, a fur ther 750 permanent employees once the plant's completed and an additional 600 employees involved in indirect job servicing the opera ting fac ility. It's expected that as high as 90 to 95 percent of these employees could be Manitobans." Mr .

Chairman, Alcan is also considering using the same process for tenders as it had with Queb ec by breaking the total job down into smalle r packages allowing local contractors - that means Man itoba con tractors - to have an opportun ity to tender. For exam ple, in Queb ec a total of 32 fou ndation contracts had been awarded with a combined value of $43 million and also a total of 18 electrical contracts for a total of $9.3 million. The official also predicted that in proper economic circu mstances, four or five more smelters the size of the one proposed for Man itoba would be req uired within the next 20 years.

Mr. Ch airman, I only mention those facts to indicate a side of the Alcan development that seems to go largely unr emarked by the members of the present government, preocc upied as they are with their tun nel-vision concern about who's going to have par tial ownership of the Limestone plant. I haven't even begun to talk about the benefits that will flow from the Limestone plant.

We know that what the previous govern ment was working on, and working toward a concl usion on, the Western Inter-Tie, is wha t will en able tha t plant to start first of all and the concu rrent guar antee of sale to Alcan of that power, can guaran tee that plant could start to go ahe ad in 19 82, if my honour able friends would only get rid of their tunn el vision and realize that there were no resource givea ways implied or actively involved in the Alcan negotia tions, not up until the date that we had left them, but realizing tha t one of the preconditions for Al can corn- ing to Man itoba was that they would have partial ownership of a certain numb er of turbi nes in that unit during the length of the first contract which is $35 million.

Un less I am mistaken, and un less the qu ality of advice, Mr. Ch airman, that this government is receiving from Man itoba Hydro is much different from the qu al ity of advice that we were receiving, that is good for Hydro and I don't think that Manitoba Hydro has chan ged its view, that this is good for Hydro and good for Man itoba. I come back, Mr.

Chairman, to say to my honourable friend, the Fir st Min ister, we know why he and his government have to move around and reassure the busine ss community, be it Alcan, be it small busine ss or anyb ody, because of the reputat ion that his party has for tomfooler y when they get into office in blin d adherence to their funny ideology.

I merely say to the First Min ister, let him be a fully rounded and working First Min ister for Manitoba, and the first thing to do in tha t regard to serve the public interest is to put the ideology to one side and get down to fair bargai ning on a realistic basis with IM C, with Alcan, not encum bered with all of the flotsam and jetsam of his 15 0 year-old doctrine which is of no particular concern to me or the people of Mani toba.

We want some action out of this government because wha t his doctrine appear s to be putting at jeopar dy is the numb ers of jobs that I've ju st related that can come to this belea guered economy in Man itoba and it's more belea guered now than it was six months ago. My honour able friends have done nothing, not a thi ng, to give any hope to the people of Manitoba that these projects can proceed, even though we admit, anyone will admit that economic circums tances may well cause Alcan to have to put a different time date on the completion of their project.

For heaven's sake, let's sign and seal an agreement with them. 31 56 We don't favour giveaways. We never have, but we want legitimate negotiation not based on an ostrich like view which is tied into some socialis t-rhetorical position about no ownership because we don't bel ieve that Crown corporations should have any private ownersh ip in it. Sit down at the table in good faith with competent negotiators, if I may add that, Mr . Chair man, with people who un derstand what the busi ness world is all about and serve the pub lic interest in Man itoba.

Sit down with those people and come to a rational ization of the situation which will cause Alcan to sign that deal even though they can't move ahead with immediate constru ction. Ther e is too much at stake for the people of Manitoba for genera tions to come to permit either the Western Inter-tie, to permit Al can or to permit the potash mine to be lost while this govern ment tries to arr ange or rearrange or put into some form of order its ideological bric-a-br ac while compan ies are sitting there ready to negotiate in good faith with the government.

I have expressed the view and I regret the pessim ism that is inherent in this view, but I've exp ressed the view that if my honour abl e friends had gotten off the mark on potash, they might well have had someth ing signed with IMC before the government changed in Saskatchewan. It's no secret, Mr . Chairman, that one of the reaso ns tha t IMC was coming to Man itoba was that it couldn' t deal with the Government of Saskat chewan. Mr . Chairman, now that there's a government

Tuesday, 8 June , 1982 in Saskatchewan with whom any com pany can deal on an honour able basis. that is on the basis of not being clut tered up with Crown corporations or other dogmatic preoccupations. now I MC may well be given the signal to go ahead to develop further tonna ges of potash in Saskatchewan without the necessity of buildin g a head frame in Man itoba and. because of that. we lose the chance of our first potash mine. Mr . Chairman.

I'm not tr ying to blame the Fir st Min ister of this province for the welcome outcome of the election in Saskatchewan. but I'm merely saying that time does have from time to time a fundamental change on events that can occur and we may well be witnessing in Manitoba because of the dithering that took place on the part of the First Minister's Govern ment with respect to potash. allowing the Memo randum of Un derst andi ng, Mr . Chair man. to expire on December 1 Sth. and sayi ng in effect to I MC. well, let's go back to squ are one and you put in some proposals and we're talking to other people. including Sask.

Potash and so on. That's not calcu lated. Mr. Ch airman. to encour age the kind of welcome or stimula tion that was in place before November 30, 19 81. wher e the negotiators on both sides knew that this was good for Manitoba and good for the company. It's got to be good for both or you won't have a deal. Let's try to restore that kind of a feeling that was in place for the benefit of Manitobans, so tha t my honour able friend. the Fir st Min ister. can go into the Town of McAuley with his head high rather than try to sneak thr ough in the dark as he would have to now.

The people in McAule y, the people in Western Manitoba were counting on that as one of the biggest developments that had ever occurred for Western Manit oba. My hono urable friend is under the gun. I tell him. he's under the gun in a way that he, perhaps. doesn't even understand yet. The people of Ma nitoba knew that these projects were within their grasp, now because of wha tever is happen ing with respect to my honour able frien d's ability or inabili ty to negotiate, those projects are further out of reach than they were six months ago. In fact. the expression - my honour able friend has heard it.

I'm sur e - on the street in Winn ipeg is that they're dead in the water and I regret that very very much. I regret tha t because I want them to be al ive in the water and I want this government to do its job and I want this govern ment to negotiate those deals because the people of Man itoba desper ately need this kind of economic injection to provide the kinds of jobs tha t we tal ked about that are ava il able from one project alo ne, let alone of the start up of Alcan or the start up of Limestone. So. Mr.

Ch airman. that's the indictment that I have agains t my honourable friend; that's the indictment that I have agains t his rhetoric; that's the indictment that I have agains t his position which in effect is. even though we say these things during the election cam paign, we really don' t mean them. That's why my hon our able friends have got an extra tough job to do in convincing any reaso nable people in the entrepre neurial field that they really bel ieve what they say.

How far can they trust a social ist government in the Prov ince of Man itoba. given the kind of disastrous record the Saun ders Aircrafts. the King Choys. etc .. etc .. that we saw during the previous eight years? That is the albatross that is around my honour able friend's neck, not put there by us or by the people of Man itoba. put there by themselves and that is the indictment my honour able friend has to answer and he has still yet to tell us where ther e was a resource giveaway as he alleged in his election document in the Alcan deal . HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr .

Ch airman. we have al ready dealt with the qu estion of the buy-back and the poten tial cost that would be to Man itobans. You know, Mr . Chairman. I find that. indeed. the Leader of the Opp osition must be living in an entirely different world, the world of Alice in Wonderland. from the world of reality.

Cer tainly it's not the world that I have been exper iencing and I think the Memb er for Pembina found out to his dismay, some six weeks ago, that when he attempted to present that :;ind of message that we've ju st heard from the Leader of the Opp osition to the Man itoba Cham bers of Commer ce, he received a pretty sharp response from the audie nce because. Mr . Ch air man. the Memb er for Pem bina might have been somewhat surprised at the response that he received when he suggested to members of the Chamber of Commer ce that they could n't trust the present government in the Provi nce of Man itoba.

He might have been somewhat surprised that members of the Cham ber of Commerce did not want to associate themselves with that kind of irresponsible effort to create distrust in the Province of Man itoba. And I'm told. for the information of the Memb er for Pembi na, I've had reports from a numb er of the delegates that were present that expressed extreme disappointment and advised me how unfavourably the mem ber's speech was to the Cha mber of Commer ce. So I say to the Leader of the Op position, Mr .

Chair man -(I nterjection)- any time. and we'll be quite delighted to match our record with any record when we've lived up to our mandate. We're in the process of living up to that mandate and. Mr . Chairman. despite the rather desperate efforts of the Leader of the Op po sition to leave some sort of impression that there are all kinds of trou ble and turmoil between this govern ment and the busine ss community, that is not the case. We will have our differences. ther e is no qu es tion.

There will be differences from time to time ju st as. indeed, there were differences with the prev ious government with the busi ness community from time to time. It was not this government that advised the busi ness commu nity that they were being placed on trial; it was the previous government of the Prov ince of Man itoba. 315 7 My Min ister of Energy and Mines, my Min ister of Economic Development. myself and other Min isters have had very constructive and positive meetings with the busi ness community in the Prov ince of Man itoba. very positive and constructive meetings.

Th ere have been differences that have been expr essed from time to time, but let me advise you, Mr . Ch airman . that I've been pleasantly pleased with the spirit of trust and understanding that exists between various business groups and this govern ment. Business groups and this govern ment are doing all that we can to continue that sort of trust and relationship and I know that's what. indeed. the members across the way are most indignant about because they can't under stand that kind of spirit that exists at the present time in Mani-

Tuesday, 8 June, 19 82 toba. They can't understand it and obviously it's creat ing some gener al frustration on the part of the members across the way, including the Leader of the Opposit ion. Mr. Ch airman, we're deal ing with the qu estion of Alcan; we're involved in discussions. It's been clearly indicated that we have our policy, Alcan has its policy that both the Government of Manit oba and Al can have agreed to continue the discussions without precondi tions and it is within that spirit that those . MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: It is within that spirit, Mr .

Chair man, that those discussions are taking place at the present time and -(I nterjection)- MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I bel ieve the Memb er for Arth ur has been using a word which has been rule d unparliam entary in the last few days in Comm ittee. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr . Chairman, if you could point out on the record that is on Hansard' then I would withdraw. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It's not on the record but I believe it was clearly heard by the Ch air . I would hope that the Memb er for Arthur would refrain from using that type of langua ge. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr .

Ch airman, for the decoru m of the House, I would hope that honourable members wouldn' t stoop to that length, but the honour able members across the way have been digging their own political graves for some time prior to the election and since the election by the kind of statements that they seem to be prone to make. I don't know how that sort of practice got under way. It's not the Man itoba way and the Me mber for Sturgeon Creek is very very dis tant from understand ing that. The Manit oba way is qu ite different than the kind of reference, the kind of remarks -(I nterjection)- Mr .

Ch airman, if you noted, when the Leader of the Opp osition was speaking, the government side remained silent. We listened to what the Leader of the Op position had to say. We gave the Leader of the Opp osition that kind of respect which, indeed, he deserved from members across this way. Mr . Chairman, we are proceeding with the negotia tions. We have removed preconditions and the dis cussions are tak ing pla ce in a constructive fashi on, but the Leader of the Op position ought not to be leaving the impression which, in fairness to him, acknowle dged that indeed proceeding would be delayed now.

In fact, I believe this is the first time that he's made that clear that he's accept ing the fact, regardless of outcome of the negotiations, the pro ceeding of construction of the smelter would be delayed because of the very acknowle dgment in the report by Alcan, postponed because of current eco nomic circu mstances. Mr. Ch airman, reference was made to the negotia tions with Qu ebec, with Br itish Columb ia and with Manitoba in the report. Mr . Chairman, I don't hear of Qu ebec or Br itish Columb ia signing the first agree ment that's hande d to those provincial jur isdictions. I've not heard of that.

In fact, I sus pect that British Colum bia under a Social Credit Government and the Qu ebec Govern ment under Party Queb ecois Gov ernment are negotiating firmly and fairly as, indeed , Alcan is negotiating firmly and fairly. I don't see why, Mr. Chairman, the Leader of the Opposition keeps urging us to adopt any different standard insofar as Man itoba is concerne d and tha t is wha t we will do. We will not bend from that path because, Mr .

Chairman, there was a discussion and honourable members may not have enjoyed the out come of that discussion, but ther e was consid erable discussion as to the approach that Man itobans wanted to see their government proceed on insofar as negoti ation and discussion with Alcan, with the Potash Cor poration and with the Inter- Tie. We had that k ind of discussion and Manitobans expressed their view as to the kind of discussion they wanted their governmen t to carry on. It's our view and we hold firmly to this view tha t we are reflecting, the view of Man itobans - negotiate, negotiate hard, negotiate fairly.

If you'r e success ful, we welcome such projects, but the negotiations must be on such a basis that the end re sult is satisfactory to the public interest of Ma nitobans and that is what we are doing, Mr . Chairman. HON. S. LYON: Mr . Ch airman, because my honour able friend apparently needs to be reminded of this, he's suggesting that some how or other, we, on this side of the Hou se, are importunin g him and his gov ernmen t to negotiate in some way other than in a firm and fair way for the people of Manitoba.

That is not the case; it's never been the case; it's not at issue in this discussion, even though my honour able friend likes to drag in, sort of deba ting red herrings, of this sort which do not bear upon and are not germane to the point. 31 58 The point, however, that rather amazed me was when the First Min ister said that - he was tal king about different standards of negotiations - we're not tal king about different standards of negotiation at all.

We want him to negotiate in a tough way and in a realistic way and in a reasonable way, uncl uttered by some of the ideological baggage that he has to carry around because of his leader ship of this rather pecu liar party. But let me say this, that there are different standards vis-a-vis Alcan deal ing with British Columb ia and dealing with Qu ebec and they're very, very different and the different standards that apply, Mr . Cha irman, for the edification of the Fir st Min ister, are fun damen tal to Man itoba getting its first aluminum smelter.

They are very simply these, that Alcan alr eady has in place most of its smelting capacity in Canada in Qu ebec and in Br itish Columbia and that in many ways it's easier for Al can to go on with an expansion of their plant in Qu ebec than it is to put a new plant in Manitoba. I would have though t that such an elemen tary fact of life should have been apparent after six months to my honour able friends. No w, we all get caught up from time to time in political rhetoric.

I would have hoped it would have been obvious to my honour able friend, the First Minis ter, while he was still Leader of the Opposition and a pretender for the job. Now that he's in the job, he has no excuse for overlo oking the fact that those are the tough negotiating conditions that exist for any Gov-

Tuesday, 8 June, 1982 ernment of Manitoba. The tough job has al ready been done and was done by his predecessors. The tough job was to interest Alcan in coming here in the first place. because they have never located a plant other than on seaboard before. That's the tough job. That was done. Now that the pass has been thr own and the qu arterback's caught it and it's been flipp ed over to another one carr ying the ball, that one had better not drop the bal l. That's what we're saying. He's got the goal in sight and there's nobody there to stop him from making a touch down on this particular project.

It looks as though he's fumbling the bal l. Mr . Ch airman, I merely wan! to remind the Honour able First Mini ster that if he fumbl es this ball, he's going to have a reputation in this prov ince of some proportion with respect to the oppor tunity that was available to him and to his government when he came into office and how that oppor tunity was lost. I don't want that to happen. I want my honour able friend to have a rather more propitious chapter, alb eit brief, in the history of Man itoba. I want that

chapter of the history of Manitoba for the sake of Mani tobans, I want it to reflect that in the cour se of this government, notwithstan ding their hangups and all of the clutter and baggage that they have to carry around with them in this life, that they were able to negotiate success fully a deal with Alcan because that's of too much importance to the people of Manitoba to allow any narrow partisan hangup s to interfere with it.

It's too important that those hun dreds and thousands of jobs that I was talking about, detai ling a few moments ago, be avai lable for young Ma nitobans so that we won't have to be worried about young people leaving the province seeking their futur e elsewhere because that futur e, that new dimension to Manitoba industrial smelting and manufactu ring, will be something avail able for young Man itobans. Let him read the brief, Mr. Ch airman, as he's nego tiating, in a tough way as we hope he will.

Let him read the brief that came from the associated Cham bers of Commer ce in and around Teu lon, Stonewall and the other areas in the Interlake. If he wants really to hear what the people of Mani toba think, let him not be misguided by what he deems to be the mandate that he received during the election cam paign. He didn't receive a mandate during the election campai gn if I may be presumptuous; he didn't receive a manda te not to sign a deal with Al can for the best interests of Manitoba, not by a long shot; he didn't receive that kind of a manda te at all.

He received a mandate to come into office in Manitoba and to guide and to be the tempor ary trustee of the public interest. The people of Mani toba are expecting the Alcan negotiation to be completed successfully. They, of cour se. don't want any giveaways and there aren't any giveaways implicit in those negotiations. Ther e haven't been any, there aren't now, un less my honourable friends have added conditions that I am unaware of. So, let's get on with it, uncl uttered by this kind of baggage that my honour able friends carried with them into office.

Let's get on with getting these thou sands of jobs for the people of Manitoba when the time is ripe because if, through circumstances of the economy, it can't happen now, then let's make sur e that if Alcan is negotiating with Que bec and with B.C. where it's easier for them to settle in many ways, that we are able to overcome that kind of competition and have that plant located in Mani toba because we've got something here that is special. Let's not be dog in t

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-71a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 71a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	84e48cbe2d93e7e3891a2cfcf08496b8b5c885f2

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).