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April 8, 2004

38th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2004-Apr-08 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Thursday 8 April 2004 Jeudi 8 avril 2004

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

ELDER ABUSE PREVENTION DAY

RECALL ACT, 2004 /

LOI DE 2004

SUR LA RÉVOCATION DES DÉPUTÉS

ELDER ABUSE PREVENTION DAY

RECALL ACT, 2004 /

LOI DE 2004

SUR LA RÉVOCATION DES DÉPUTÉS

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

ABORIGINAL HEALTH CARE

INTERNATIONAL

WALK TO SCHOOL AWARD

UNIVERSITY FUNDING

CHILD SAFETY

NORTHEAST MENTAL

HEALTH CENTRE

ANTI-SMOKING CAMPAIGN

SAFE DRINKING WATER LEGISLATION

EASTER GREETINGS

FIREARMS CONTROL

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

HEALTH INSURANCE

AMENDMENT ACT

(INSULIN PUMPS FOR DIABETICS), 2004 /

LOI DE 2004 MODIFIANT

LA

LOI SUR L'ASSURANCE-SANTÉ

(POMPES À INSULINE POUR DIABÉTIQUES)

DEFERRED VOTES

THRONE SPEECH DEBATE

MEMBER'S BIRTHDAY

THERESA BOYLE

MEMBER'S BIRTHDAY

ORAL QUESTIONS

ONTARIO ECONOMY

HOSPITAL FUNDING

ONTARIO ECONOMY

TUITION

ONTARIO ECONOMY

ONTARIO DOWNTOWN

REVITALIZATION PROGRAM

SECOND-STAGE HOUSING

TOBACCO GROWERS

RURAL SCHOOLS

SEX OFFENDERS

TOURISM

AMBULANCE SERVICES

TRAFFIC SIGNAL

TOBACCO CONTROL

PETITIONS

SENIOR CITIZENS

SEWAGE SLUDGE

ANTI-SMOKING LEGISLATION

TILLSONBURG DISTRICT

MEMORIAL HOSPITAL

RENT BANK PROGRAMS

RIGHT TO LIFE

ONTARIO DRUG BENEFIT PROGRAM

RECREATIONAL TRAILERS

SEWAGE SLUDGE

ADOPTION DISCLOSURE

LCBO OUTLET

ONTARIO DRUG BENEFIT PROGRAM

LANDFILL

ORDERS OF THE DAY

PUBLIC SECTOR SALARY DISCLOSURE

AMENDMENT ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LA DIVULGATION

DES TRAITEMENTS

DANS LE SECTEUR PUBLIC

PUBLIC SECTOR SALARY DISCLOSURE

AMENDMENT ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LA DIVULGATION

DES TRAITEMENTS

DANS LE SECTEUR PUBLIC

HEALTH INFORMATION

PROTECTION ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 SUR LA PROTECTION

DES RENSEIGNEMENTS SUR LA SANTÉ

The House met at 1000.

Prayers.

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

ELDER ABUSE PREVENTION DAY

Mr David Zimmer (Willowdale): I move that, in the opinion of this House, the government of Ontario should commit itself to an annual Elder Abuse

Prevention Day, fixing a date where the government, its agencies, communities, professional and business organizations and service providers can communicate a clear and consistent message and

foster substantive awareness and learning around protecting our senior citizens.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bruce Crozier): Mr. Zimmer has moved private member's resolution number 10. Pursuant to standing order 96, the member has

10 minutes for his presentation.

Mr Zimmer: Thank you for the opportunity to speak to this resolution. Let me address some comments as to why I think this resolution is needed,

why this resolution is important and why members of this House should support this resolution. Elder abuse is one of the last silent issues in our society that needs attention, that needs to be

attended to. It's the last unmentionable issue, along with child abuse and spousal abuse. It is an issue that needs attention.

The first step in recognizing or dealing with the issue, I submit to you, is awareness of the issue in all its facets. Issue awareness in the past has done a

tremendous amount to bring forward the issues of child abuse, cancer treatment, spousal abuse and the awareness issues surrounding the treatment of Alzheimer's disease. So becoming aware of an

issue and its effects and manifestations is really the first step in addressing the issue. That's what I'm proposing today: that we adopt an Elder Abuse Prevention Day as a first step in generating

awareness of this last unmentionable issue. Let me give you some facts surrounding this issue, just to keep it in context.

In Ontario, there are 1.5 million senior citizens. There are credible studies that indicate that 4% to 10% of that seniors' population -- that's 60,000 to

100,000 -- suffer some type of abuse. The abuse itself can occur in many forms. The principal form, the obvious form of elder abuse, is physical abuse, and we've all read about and perhaps we all

know about situations of physical elder abuse. A less obvious abuse, but just as crying out for correction, is the whole issue of neglected seniors, which in itself contemplates abuse. There's

financial abuse of seniors; that's akin to fraud. There are unscrupulous commercial entities and unscrupulous relatives taking advantage of seniors, taking advantage of their assets, their bank

accounts and their properties. The more subtle and indeed more taxing form of elder abuse is the whole issue of the emotional abuse of elders.

Those same studies that give that statistic of 4% to 10% of seniors suffering abuse go on to point out that 68% of the abusers of elders are family members; 32%

are non-family members. If we break down the study, it tells us that of the family abusers, about 30% are abused at the hands of a spouse and, shockingly, 50% of elders suffer abuse at the hands of

their adult children. Some 18% of seniors who suffer from abuse are males and, shamefully and shockingly, 38% are female seniors.

Abusers often are aware of what they are doing, but there is a whole component of the abusers of seniors who just aren't aware that their conduct, their

emotional relationship with seniors, their financial relationship with seniors, constitutes an abuse. An awareness program will go a long way to make those people aware of the effect of their

actions on seniors and to point out that in fact many of those actions constitute a form of abuse.

Awareness, then, is always the first step in correcting a situation that needs correcting. If you're not aware of it, you can't begin to address it, and I come

back to the examples that I pointed out earlier: the great success that awareness programs have had in dealing with child abuse, spousal abuse, the treatment of cancer, cancer awareness programs,

the treatment of Alzheimer's, awareness surrounding Alzheimer's programs.

What does awareness mean? Awareness programs have to recognize in this case of elder abuse all of the various forms of elder abuse: clearly the obvious, the

subtle forms of elder abuse and the hidden forms of elder abuse. This resolution is a first step in raising that level of awareness.

Let me tell you a poignant story which I think captures the whole issue of senior abuse. A number of years ago an elderly woman passed away. A few months after

her death, her diary was found; she was in the habit of keeping a diary. In her last diary entry, which she wrote a couple of days before she died, she wrote these words: "These years have been

wasted ones, ones of degradation, of not belonging, of muted feelings."

Members, this resolution is a step toward ensuring that seniors have their golden years and not ones of degradation, of not belonging, of muted feelings. I urge

all members to support this resolution.

Mr Garfield Dunlop (Simcoe North): It's a pleasure to rise today. In fact, I will be supporting the member from Willowdale's resolution. I think

that anything any political party or government can do toward raising more awareness of something like seniors' abuse is certainly important to the almost 1.5 million seniors we have in the

province of Ontario. I know in his first few comments, he mentioned that it was very silent. The fact of the matter is, I really don't agree with that. I think there is already a lot of awareness

of it, and I'm going to point out some of those, if I may.

I'd like to say that for four years now I've had seniors' days in my riding. We bring awareness to things such as all the services that are available to seniors

in our community. We even invite the Ontario Seniors' Secretariat to come. They're always great. They send staff people up to my seniors' days and they talk about issues like seniors' awareness and

elder abuse.

The Ontario Provincial Police has a strategy in place. They have a special division of the Ontario Provincial Police, and I think they do an excellent job. Those

folks at the Ontario Provincial Police like to go out and visit seniors' organizations. They go to seniors' days in MPPs' areas. They're out there adamantly promoting this particular branch of the

OPP, trying to promote the fact that elder abuse is there and they have all kinds of solutions to help with that.

I think we all have probably at one time or another encountered someone who has suffered elder abuse. Of the key points the speaker mentioned already, I think

financial elder abuse is probably the biggest problem they find. We often see that. Sometimes it's even in families, where families use older members of their families and rip them off for money.

We've actually seen cases of that. Telemarketing is another one. It's terrible how some of these telemarketers have created scams that hurt our seniors as well.

I'd like to put a few people's names on the record who have worked toward elder abuse in a very dynamic way in my riding. Two people, Mrs Shirley Dmytruk and Mrs

Marie Smith, are both members of United Senior Citizens of Ontario who are continually out across the province. These are ladies who are well into their senior years, and they travel right across

our province talking to all kinds of senior citizens' groups and bringing elder abuse forward.

I should just quickly comment, is it ever nice that the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing and minister responsible for seniors is here this morning. I

didn't expect you to be here and I want to compliment you for coming here and listening to these comments on elder abuse. I hope you're listening very carefully, Mr Minister. I hope you're not over

there talking about greenbelts all the time, but are listening to the senior citizens as well.

It's important that I also mention some of the folks in the west end of my riding: Mr George Lawrence, Rosita des Roches from Lafontaine, John McLaughlin from

the seniors' awareness group right in the city of Orillia. Once a month on Wednesday they meet with a guest speaker and they do exactly what Mr Zimmer's trying to do with his bill, and that's talk

about bringing awareness to seniors on all types of issues, whether it's market value assessment issues or issues around elder abuse. It's really important that we mention these people in our

comments because it's important that we bring awareness to seniors about elder abuse.

I'd like to comment on a couple of little things that our government did when we were in power and that I hope the new government will continue. I know that in

March 2002, Premier Eves at the time committed $4.3 million, including 10 new specially trained staff, to an elder abuse strategy to address and prevent the abuse of seniors. Of course, you are all

very familiar that a lot of the abuse can take place in the health care industry. One of the areas we found in 1995 when we came to power was the lack of long-term-care beds. As you know, there

have been over 20,000 beds allocated across the province. Many have opened up in many of your ridings. I'm sure that as very hard-working constituency men, you people all go and visit these homes,

and if you haven't been to each one in your riding, you should go, and I'm sure at some point you will. I think those 20,000 new long-term-care beds have helped the health care industry a lot in

elder abuse as well.

The Ontario drug benefit plan has added 1,436 drugs to its formulary since 1995 and now covers over 3,200 drug products. Seniors are the largest group of drug

consumers and comprise as much as 89% of the benefits of that program. As you know, we are very concerned about some of the comments that have been made by the Minister of Finance and by members of

your party about the possibility of working on that program and reducing the number of drugs that are covered and who would actually be eligible. We have a real problem with that. I know that you

have received a number of concerns, a number of complaints, over the last few months since that trial balloon was floated out there.

But there are a few things. Although I support the bill, I find it ironic that this government would bring out a bill like this, because in a lot of ways you've

hurt seniors.

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): It's not a bill.

Mr Dunlop: I'm sorry, the resolution. I think of the seniors' tax credit that you took away; the average amount of that rebate for seniors was

$475. You took $475 out of the pockets of our senior citizens in this province. I'm disappointed. We passed that legislation. You rolled it back with Bill 4, and I can tell you that hurt senior

citizens. That hurt a lot of our senior citizens in the province. They were counting on that. We had numerous calls to our office, asking when the applications would be available, when they would

actually have an opportunity to receive that money back, and they certainly didn't come through with that. You rolled it back and you hurt seniors to the tune of $475 a household or about $400

million that would have gone back into the pockets of senior citizens in Ontario. I'm not happy with that, I know the senior citizens of the province are not happy with that, and I know that a

number of the members of your caucus in the Liberal Party will not be happy with that as well.

Removing the hydro cap: Talk about elder abuse. The most vulnerable people in our society, and you took the hydro cap off, something you promised to leave in

place until 2006, and we don't have it. Now they're vulnerable out there. It's something that we on this side of the House were committed to leaving in place until 2006. You've obviously broken a

promise with that one, because you went across the province telling everybody that you would leave the hydro cap in place until 2006. You weren't in here an hour and you started fooling around with

that. That's sad, and the senior citizens of the province won't forget that. Although this trial balloon of an Elder Abuse Prevention Day obviously is a good idea, it will not deflect the criticism

that you've received about that.

I mentioned also the drug benefit plan and how they're going to tamper with that. We fully expect that you will try to tamper with that. That is also elder abuse

to the senior citizens of Ontario.

A couple of my colleagues would like to say a few words as well, but I do want to thank you for the opportunity this morning. I will be supporting this

resolution, but I wanted to put those comments on record. I believe that they had to be brought forward at this point, because I don't believe this government, the Dalton McGuinty government, is

very supportive of our seniors.

Hon John Gerretsen (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, minister responsible for seniors): I want to thank the honourable member for

bringing this resolution forward, first of all. Just to rebut something that the previous speaker stated, it's interesting to note that the nine seniors' organizations with which the Ontario

Seniors' Secretariat work on a continual basis all supported the government's idea of cancelling the seniors' tax credit, provided that the money that represents would go into seniors' services. So

that's where they stand. They would rather have it in services than in tax cuts.

Elder abuse is an issue that our government, the McGuinty government, takes very seriously. We are pleased to implement the Ontario strategy to combat elder

abuse, the first strategy of its kind in Canada. Giving credit where credit is due, it was the previous government that initiated that about five years ago. Other jurisdictions have looked at our

comprehensive strategy as a model.

The strategy focuses on three priorities: coordination of local services, training of front-line staff and public education. The strategy is being led by the

Ontario Seniors' Secretariat, the Ministry of the Attorney General and our community partner, the Ontario Network for the Prevention of Elder Abuse.

The establishment of a fixed annual day recognizing elder abuse would certainly support our public education and awareness efforts to raise awareness of this

growing problem. As has already been mentioned, there are over 1.5 million seniors in this province. We live in an aging society. Our population base will contain more seniors in years to come.

Nearly all of them live in the community. Ontario seniors deserve to live safely, with dignity and as independently as possible, with the supports they need. The

vast majority of older adults, who live independently and are supported by their families, friends and community programs, or who are cared for in residential settings, are treated with the dignity

and respect they deserve. But elder abuse, unfortunately, does happen.

At least 4% of Ontario's seniors suffer from elder abuse. It is for them a terrible reality. This is why it's so important that we have programs and resources to

help people who are victims of elder abuse, or those who want to help others they suspect are victims. It is why public education is an important tool in addressing elder abuse and helping to

prevent it.

Abuse can take many forms: financial, emotional, physical, or simply neglect. It can happen to anyone, anywhere, regardless of cultural or socio-economic

background. The health and safety of all Ontario's seniors, and ensuring they have safe, livable communities in which to live, are priorities for this government.

Elder abuse of any kind should not be tolerated in Ontario or anywhere else in Canada. Its prevention is everyone's business. The better informed citizens are,

the greater the role they can play in ensuring their own safety and the safety of others.

The work taking place to combat elder abuse across the province is very much a collaborative effort. The progress made to date is the result of the hard work and

dedication of many individuals and organizations that are making a difference on a day-to-day basis in our communities. We are very pleased that communities have come together throughout the

province to combat elder abuse.

The results are both promising and impressive. Innovative local developments are contributing to real, positive change in our fight against elder abuse and

improving the quality of life for all seniors in the process.

For the past year, eight regional elder abuse consultants have been working diligently across the province in supporting new and exciting local elder abuse

networks. They have been working with senior groups and local service providers to promote and support community efforts to combat elder abuse, helping communities coordinate local justice, health

and community services to respond to the needs of abused seniors. They are contributing to elder abuse training for front-line staff from sectors such as health care, justice and financial

services.

Local elder abuse networks have been established or rejuvenated in 30 communities across the province, bringing the provincial total to 75. By coordinating local

justice, health and community services, networks are addressing gaps in services and bringing new players to the table all the time. These networks are doing innovative work in their communities

through mechanisms such as community response teams, and public awareness campaigns have been developed in communities from Dryden to Peterborough to Windsor.

The McGuinty government plans to bolster these local efforts with a province-wide public education campaign. Linkages are being established with other groups

that provide training to front-line staff from sectors such as health care and financial services. For example, the elder abuse curriculum is being added to the Ontario Police College training and

other professional training programs. Seven networking days have taken place across the province since the launch of the Ontario strategy to combat elder abuse. These days provide an opportunity

for seniors and front-line agencies to share best practices and strengthen partnerships. The conference included topics such as reaching out to diverse communities, a multisectoral approach to

police education, rural approaches, a northwestern development model, preventing elder abuse of older women, and training of professionals, to name but a few.

All these efforts are generating knowledge and interest that will ultimately help us in our fight against elder abuse. We are ensuring that Ontarians are more

aware of how to identify elder abuse, how to address it and how to prevent it. Through the collective efforts of thousands of seniors and service providers across the province, we are sending the

signal loud and clear that elder abuse will simply not be tolerated in Ontario. Progress is being made in Ontario's fight against elder abuse; it's being made, but we are not yet finished.

The establishment of an elder abuse prevention day such as proposed by the member from Willowdale today would help advance the fight against elder abuse, and I

am therefore pleased to heartily support the honourable member's resolution.

Mr Frank Klees (Oak Ridges): I'm pleased to participate in the debate and I want to commend the member for Willowdale for bringing this

important bill forward. I do believe that it may have had more effect had we named it something else. I would have liked to see us name this resolution "respect for elders" because I believe we're

dealing with a symptom of something that is pervasive in our society.

I listened with interest to the Minister of Municipal Affairs, who spoke about the initiative of the government to incorporate into the police college a

curriculum relating to elder abuse. Where we really need to incorporate this issue is in the curriculum of our schools. We need to reinsert into our education system the concept of respect for

elders in our communities.

The day was, I recall well, when I was taught as a young person that when you meet someone on the sidewalk, you say hello to them; when you see an elderly person

coming along the sidewalk, you're the one who moves and allows that person to have the right of way. There was no such thing as tolerance within our household when I was growing up, and to this

day, and there was no such thing as tolerance within our school, I recall well, of disrespect for elders.

I would suggest that we have a responsibility within our society to send out a clarion call to our educators, to parents, to those in positions of responsibility

within our communities that it must start with holding those in our community who have gone before us -- our seniors, our parents, grandparents. I see the pages here and I say to them, as you

listen to this debate, think carefully about the kind of respect and how much we owe to our parents, to our grandparents, to those who have given us all that we have an opportunity to enjoy in this

province. That's the fundamental issue, and I think often we have forgotten, even in this place, the whole issue of respect among members. We have young people in the galleries today and they will

be watching the proceedings in the House. The concept of respect between human beings, between individuals as we relate to another is a huge signal that's sent out to youth in our communities and

to the province as a whole. If we can't begin to respect each other within our own homes, if we can't respect each other within a place of government where laws are made -- we can do all the

lawmaking we want to say it's wrong to abuse elders. Let's stop abusing each other and start to show the kind of respect we should be showing each other, starting here. I think it's a great place

to start.

Having said that, I commend the member because it is a reality in our communities. I want to support the member in his initiative. It's the appropriate thing to

do. All of us, as we focus in on this, know that we will have our hand in improving the quality of life for elders in our communities.

Mr Gilles Bisson (Timmins-James Bay): First of all, I want to thank the pages. The pages probably play the most important role in this

Legislature. They found my tie, my suit and my glasses. So I want to thank Mark and Michael. I ran up here at the last minute from one meeting to another. Without the pages I don't know how we

would function around here. I congratulate them. I believe it's their last day today and I want to thank them on the record for the work they've done. I know we'll be doing that a bit more formally

later. I'm not sure if it's the last day today. Is it or isn't it?

Interjection: One more week.

Mr Bisson: One more week. I almost sent you guys away early. You would have been mad at the NDP. Future voters would never have gone there. You

get another week.

Hon James J. Bradley (Minister of Tourism and Recreation): They should be.

Mr Bisson: Come on, Jim. You're so cynical.

Back to the point: I want to say that I, along with the rest of my colleagues and the New Democratic caucus, support the member for Willowdale on his motion. We

agree there is a problem of elder abuse within our society. It's not specific to Ontario. We need to recognize that this is a problem that's existed for a long time. Governments in various

jurisdictions, including Ontario, have made some progress over the years, from government to government, as we learn more about these issues. As we become more aware of them, more and more is being

done. I think what the member is recommending is that we try to step up our initiatives and efforts to make sure we prevent those awful situations from happening.

I want to put a couple of things on the record. A Conservative member made a couple of points that are important. I forget who it was, but it was one of the

Conservatives, who got up as the first speaker; I meant to write down what riding and I don't remember. Elder abuse comes in different forms. There is the physical, which we know about. It's pretty

clear understanding what that is. There's a psychological or threatening kind of thing as far as people making you feel unsure is concerned. I think there's also government policy to a certain

extent, which is a subtle type of abuse.

I don't want to go as far as my colleague in the Conservative caucus in saying it's direct abuse, but I think it's very subtle. We need to make sure that the

services we provide to seniors in our province are of a degree that people are able to live in some comfort of mind, knowing they don't have to worry about how they're going to be treated today or

tomorrow when it comes to their physical needs, as far as having a roof over their head, food, services, all that stuff is concerned, but also their psychological needs in regard to how we deal

with them.

Many of you know as members of the assembly, and if new ones haven't learned this they're going to learn it very quickly, that one of the most disrupting things

for a senior is change, especially when it comes to somebody in an institution. If you have somebody living in a long-term-care institution somewhere and all of a sudden they're told that they're

moving, even to a room across the hall, that can create a lot of disruption in that person's life because they've finally become acclimatized and settled into a particular issue.

Abuse comes in various forms. I don't think this is abuse that people want to give, but I think government policy sometimes has the effect of abusing seniors to

a certain degree. That's why I want to put on the record that I was a little bit concerned the other day with the comments the Minister of Health made in regard to changing the policy here in

Ontario when it comes to forcing seniors to take their placement once a placement has been offered in a long-term-care facility.

There is one side of my brain that says I understand what the minister is saying. In our terms, we have the problem of bed blockers. But let's keep in mind we're

dealing with seniors here. Let's not look at them as units of production or units of whatever. These are people. They're elderly people. About 40% to 50% of them have some form of dementia by the

time they end up in our institutions. Let's say you have an Alzheimer's patient who is becoming more and more critical. All of a sudden they're admitted to the hospital for some physical issue, but

they are also suffering from dementia. It's at the point that the community care services are no longer able to provide the level of care necessary to leave that senior in their home, independently

or with a family member. They go into what we call ALCs -- alternate level of care beds.

One of the big problems we have in this province right now is that the alternate level of care is mushrooming. In the Timmins and District Hospital, for example,

it's a huge problem, and it's a huge problem, I would say, in most hospitals. There are so many ALC beds being taken up by seniors who are waiting to get into long-term-care institutions that it's

preventing patients being admitted into other parts of the hospital when it comes to medical or surgical needs, and that's a problem.

What the government was musing about the other day, specifically the Ministry of Health, was that we may take the position that we would force a senior, once a

bed becomes open within the system, to take that bed and then later transfer them back to wherever their first institution of choice was. I just want to put in practical terms what that means to a

frail, elderly patient, and that's why I'm saying it's abuse to a certain extent. If you have somebody at the Timmins and District Hospital who lives in the city of Timmins and they're starting to

suffer dementia and they have physical needs and they can no longer live independently, all of a sudden the government says, "Oh, by the way, there's a bed available in Matheson," or "There's a bed

available in Kapuskasing." They're perfectly good institutions, I'm not going to argue that they're bad ones; they're very good. But the problem is, there's the whole link of the family and support

groups that they need in order to feel comfortable and they're being sent out into a community in which they have no family support. That is going to put that elderly person in a cycle of worry and

they're really going to start fretting and that's not good for their health, not to say what it means to the family.

Now all of a sudden -- you've acclimatized the patient to the ALC bed -- the elderly person, if the minister gets his way with this policy, is forced into an

institution far away. Then the person gets acclimatized and you shift them back to the institution they wanted in the first place. I'm not going to vote for that. I think that's nuts. We've had to

deal with this problem for many years. Our policy took the position that elderly people should have the right of refusal. They should pick their first institution of choice and other institutions

they're interested in. If they're offered an institution that they're not happy with, they shouldn't have to take it. After all, this is their housing. I would say, if the government goes that way,

it is, quite frankly, abuse of seniors, and I think we need to keep that in mind.

The other thing is this whole issue of the promise the government made in the last election vis-à-vis $6,000 per year additional funds necessary for

patients in long-term-care institutions. We saw the stories the other day where you can get more and better food living in a prison in Ontario, in some cases, than you can get in a long-term-care

institution. There are a lot of good public institutions out there that provide long-term care and actually have pretty good dietary services. I know, for example, at the Golden Manor in Timmins

and others they do a pretty good job. I've never had a lot of complaints about those specific ones, but some of the private ones, I've got to say, are a problem. The government promised they were

going to give $6,000 more per patient, for a total of $420 million in the first year. When my leader, Howard Hampton, got up yesterday and asked the minister, "Will you commit to the $420 million

you promised?" he vacillated all over the place, more or less telling us that he's going to break that election promise.

So I say there are all kinds of issues that we need to be looking at if we really want to prevent elder abuse. There are a whole bunch of issues that we've got

to be looking at far beyond just a motion saying, "Come, we'll hug you; we love you. We think elders shouldn't be abused." We all agree with the motherhood-and-apple-pie statement that's made in

this motion but we need to have some concrete policy issues decided by this government when it comes to a level of care for patients and when it comes to others.

Will anybody want more time, or am I going to --

Interjection: Take it.

Mr Bisson: OK. I just saw two of my members walk in and I thought they all want time.

I also want to say that my leader, Howard Hampton, has put forward a bill called

An Act to protect persons in care from abuse, Bill 47. This has many good,

positive steps to try to prevent elder abuse. We as New Democrats are going to be supporting Mr Zimmer's motion because we agree with the direction he's going in.

I'm asking that the government support my leader Howard Hampton's Bill 47, which deals concretely with the issues of elder abuse to make sure there are some

standards that are applied, and that when abuse happens people are forced to report it, so that either staff or whoever might be a witness of abuse reports it and the Minister of Health has some

ability to deal with it, which he already has, but we need to give him some additional rights under the legislation.

We will support the legislation. We look forward to the day we have a debate on Bill 47, Howard Hampton's bill on elder abuse. At that time I will be asking

the Liberals to vote with us and not do what the Tories always did, which was to vote against good legislation that would help people.

Mr Dave Levac (Brant): I appreciate deeply the opportunity, first of all, to express my complete and total trust and support for the member

from Willowdale, who has brought forward for us a culture change. I want to make sure we understand clearly what we're talking about here. We're talking about culture change. What you need to do in

a cultural change is educate and make sure people move from one way of operating to the next. What I want to do is give you the quick example of what happened with drinking and driving.

The perfect example of that is drinking and driving before MADD, Mothers Against Drunk Driving. What they did was they changed a culture of acceptance. We know

that in courts across the province, across the country and across North America, when 12 people were sitting as jurors to convict somebody of drinking and driving, a serious offence, they usually

got off. Why? Because the 12 people sat there saying, "That was me Saturday night, so I'm not going to convict them" -- until Mothers Against Drunk Driving stepped forward and said, "Enough of

this. We're going to change a culture and an attitude about drinking and driving." Sure enough, that's been happening. We've changed a culture.

What Mr Zimmer is asking us to do today, and I know all of us believe this, is to change a culture of acceptance. We can and must no longer accept the type of

abuse that's been going on, not just in retirement homes, not just in long-term-care facilities, but indeed, unfortunately, in people's own homes, and unfortunately, even more so, by their own

family members. We've got to change a culture of acceptance. What do you do? You need to bring it forward. You need to make sure it's in the open. You need to make sure, loud and clear, that it

will not be accepted.

The minister has told us that our government has said yes. I know the previous government said, "We will not allow that to happen." I want to compliment the

member from the third party. Howard Hampton's bill talking about elder abuse is another important step to bring to us the rules and regulations that need to be changed.

I want to take the opportunity to explain to you that in my hometown, unfortunately -- I will say fortunately -- we had that W-Five episode where we exposed

abuse going on in a long-term-care facility; unfortunately, obviously, because we caught some people doing some things to our senior citizens that are not acceptable. The member from Oak Ridges was

absolutely correct, and I support him 100%, when he says there needs to be a cultural change in our attitudes toward our senior citizens. Why do I say fortunately? Because it brought it out in the

open and some good things are happening.

I'm proud to report to you today that a report I wrote about the incident went to Monique Smith, the member from Nipissing, who is parliamentary assistant to

Mr Smitherman, the Minister of Health, who has made it clear that he wants action on this, not just the words that some members, unfortunately, are saying, that this is just a huggy-feely thing. It

can't happen until the culture changes. That's what this motion is going to do. It's going to assist us in changing a culture.

The report goes as such:

"Report of Meeting Held on Tuesday, February 10, 2004, 7 pm at Versa Care in Brantford, Re: Seniors' Issues:

"I wish to report on a meeting I attended by invitation regarding recent events concerning `elder abuse' initiated by the local coverage of the W-Five program

and the show itself. I will include previously reviewed materials, the report on the meeting itself and follow-up for your consideration.

"The meeting was held at Versa Care Centre, a facility owned and operated by Central Care Corp."

"Versa Care facilitated the meeting with several head office" people in attendance. The local staff was there along with the manager. The police services board

was there by invitation, regional ministry representatives were there by invitation and there was myself. "These were the only invited guests.... The media were not invited."

The company has agreed to "refocused training; relationship with Mohawk College," a local college, "to assist with their expertise; increase their inspections,

`town-hall' meeting with residents" on a regular basis; "hired a social worker to be `resident advocate'; include unannounced visitations by company officials." They are going to review their staff

routines, and assurances that the ministry and officials would assist any accommodation changes required.

I have indicated my disgust and my hurt that any senior would be abused and have committed to doing whatever I can to assist in bringing this under control.

Hence my support for Mr Zimmer's motion.

I provided information to the ministry on actions to date and future plans, which are approximately 300 unannounced visits to the facilities, 600 more visits

to come; the parliamentary assistant to write a report, recommendations and findings for the minister for action.

I have indicated the vast majority of the workers and employees of long-term-care facilities and retirement homes are caring, compassionate, loving and

professionals. We can't paint everybody with one brush. Several ideas were generated, and those include: video surveillance, registry of abuse files, regulated class of all providers for PSW,

province-wide advocates, and the list is endless. We must start to change the culture, and I support this motion 100%.

Mr Tascona: I'm pleased to join in the debate with respect to the private member's resolution.

As the member from Oak Ridges stated, this is a matter of respect, and as the member from Brantford states quite correctly, it's a matter of changing the

culture. But certainly we have to have respect for our elders and the seniors, what they need today. There are issues out there, and I think the member from Timmins-James Bay pointed out one of

them with respect to the health minister's role, with respect to the treatment of seniors, especially when they're facing a situation where they have had to leave their home, be it an apartment or

a house, and they have to make a decision to go into a nursing home.

I've been very proud of our government's role when we were in power with respect to seniors in nursing homes. In my riding of Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford, under the

new provincial standards with respect to nursing homes, we had tremendous advancement. We had a number of new nursing homes built that allowed seniors in my riding to stay in their community, as

opposed to being shipped to other communities because we didn't have those nursing homes.

I was pleased when the Minister of Health was there to open Victoria Village, which is in Barrie, a state-of-the-art facility. One thing that we asked the --

and it's still on the table because we're doing fundraising for it -- is to have a day facility for seniors so that their children or people who are caring for the seniors can drop them off during

the day to have them looked after. That's something that the ministry has been looking at. I urge the ministry to take a serious look at that, because I think it's important.

We have two facilities that allow for seniors to be looked after in the day in my riding, and it's important that that is a policy of the government with

respect to not only providing nursing homes, but also to allow people who are not in nursing homes to be treated and looked after with respect during the day at the facilities that Victoria Village

has proposed and has built and is looking for ministry funding in terms of looking after, during the day, those seniors who are not in nursing home facilities.

This is the Barrie Examiner we have today, which talks about, "The practice of letting hospital patients wait for a bed at a long-term-care facility of their

choice may soon be coming to an end."

I quote Donna Rubin, the chief executive officer of the Ontario Association of Non-Profit Homes and Services for Seniors, who said, "Forcing residents to

relocate is more than a mere inconvenience.

"This flies in the face of resident choice, and we don't agree with it.

"The average long-term-care patient in Ontario is more than 85 years old; all are frail and more than half of them suffer from some form of dementia.

"Every time you transfer somebody, you run the risk of deteriorating their health." Rubin also noted that family members often provide an elderly patient's

only means of emotional and moral support.

It goes without saying that we have got to be careful with respect to what policies we're going to implement, especially if the Minister of Health is being

directed by bean-counters, because that's essentially what it looks like here. Respect has to be not only lip service. I know the member from Willowdale. His intentions are honourable, but he's

asking the government of Ontario to commit to a day. The bottom line here is to commit to a policy that shows respect, and if your policies don't show respect for seniors, especially when we're

talking about seniors who are 85 years of age or more being moved out of facilities, that's not respect. That's in fact abuse of their residence choice and their rights as seniors. I urge the

minister to stop that particular policy. It's not going to work.

I would say a lot of seniors are feeling threatened today. I got this the other day from the government about electricity prices changing, information about

how it's going to change, but there's nothing in that pamphlet that would say to seniors, "Here's what we're going to do to help you because we know you're vulnerable." I urge the Ministry of

Energy to look at that in terms of how they are going to treat seniors with respect regarding hydro, because they're going to be impacted.

Mr Ted McMeekin (Ancaster-Dundas-Flamborough-Aldershot): I'm pleased to rise and add a few words of support for the member from Willowdale's

resolution. I want to commend him -- he gets it; he understands. He's made the most important leap that we, in this House, can make. That's the one-foot distance between the heart and the head. So

thank you, member from Willowdale. He understands that we need to talk about this issue if we're going to move forward on it, and he has used his good office to provide us with an opportunity to

articulate our concern and to, in fact, express our resolve.

I could speak about a number of things, about the stats, the fastest-growing demographic being seniors, about the programs and resources the previous

government and this government continue to dedicate to this issue, about the recent conference where over 500 professionals came together to explore ways to tackle this issue, about our elder abuse

strategy, its desire to coordinate services, train front-line staff, raise public awareness, regional consultants, the stakeholder networking days. I mean, it goes on and on. There are a lot of

good steps that are being taken to help define, raise awareness and respond to the issue of elder abuse.

I want to spend the three minutes or so that I have to share a couple of stories, to put a human face on this, if I can, because I think many of our seniors

are living between memory and hope. There's often a combination of what I call the "F" factors: family, fear and fraud, in many cases, that seem to conspire almost to mitigate against our

seniors.

A woman named Mary -- not her real name -- an 81-year-old woman with the exception of having a problem with short-term memory loss, lives well, comfortably and

independently in a small cottage, loves to garden, very worried about her plants. In the fall came a knock on the door from a company that offered to take care of her bushes, prune her roses, get

her garden ready. For $500 he'd do that. She was delighted. She paid him the $500 and, to his credit, he did the work, but two weeks later came another knock on the door, "You still haven't paid me

that $500 you owe me." She paid him again. This happened six times before one of the family members finally twigged in, and when Mary was asked, "How come you didn't blow the whistle?" she said, "I

was afraid my son would put me in a long-term-care facility." So a little bit of support can change that.

An 83-year-old man I met -- wife with Alzheimer's -- at an advances-in-dementia research conference came up to me and said, "You know, Mr McMeekin, I'm not

afraid of dying." How do you respond to someone whose opening remark is, "I'm not afraid of dying"? I said, "How long have you felt this way?" We talked and I said, "What do you fear?" He said,

"What I really fear is getting one of those catastrophic, debilitating illnesses that makes me a burden on my family and I've got to be put away." So I said, "Well, that's pretty dark. What's your

hope?" He said, "My hope is that I get sick late and die fast." You know, the fear out there that people have.

Abuse takes many forms. The member from Willowdale outlined some of those. Clearly, prevention is the business of all of us here. Taking initiatives to combat

elder abuse is a responsibility we share. It could be physical, emotional or psychological. It could be fraud, like the gardening example that I spoke about. It can also be institutional, and I

want to end with this. We would never think of having somebody lose their job because they are male or female, because of their race, because of their religion, because of their sexual orientation.

Yet in Ontario and Canada today, we have a form of institutionalized elder abuse called mandatory retirement. Think about it: People with gifts who are in the workforce, who make a contribution

every day, are being forced to stand down. I believe the commissioner of human rights in the province and I believe Paul Martin and our Premier need to end this practice. That is one of the most

important things we can do to eradicate elder abuse in our province.

The Deputy Speaker: The member for Willowdale has two minutes to reply.

Mr Zimmer: I want to thank my fellow members for their support of this resolution. As I said in my opening remarks that awareness is always

the first step. We as legislators must take the lead. We must start by being aware in this Legislature, in our constituencies, in our personal lives, in our communities. Our just-in-time lives

often leave seniors behind -- unheard of, unthought of, alone in their fear and their anxiety.

This resolution establishing an annual Elder Abuse Prevention Day is a first step in bringing elder abuse in all its forms -- the subtle forms, the obvious

forms, the physical, emotional and financial forms -- to the forefront. We owe it to our seniors, we owe it to our society, and we owe it to our collective self-respect.

The good news is that awareness programs have a tremendous track record in bringing issues to the fore that need addressing. I talked earlier about the track

record in terms of spousal abuse, the health issues of cancer, of Alzheimer's disease, of child abuse. So I want to thank members for your support in taking this first step in changing our societal

attitudes toward elder abuse.

RECALL ACT, 2004 /

LOI DE 2004

SUR LA RÉVOCATION DES DÉPUTÉS

Mr Barrett moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 39,

An Act to amend the Election Act respecting the recall of Members of the Assembly / Projet de loi 39, Loi modifiant la Loi électorale en ce qui

concerne la révocation des députés de l'Assemblée.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bruce Crozier): Pursuant to standing order 96, the member has 10 minutes for his presentation.

Mr Toby Barrett (Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant): I stand today to argue in support of a concept whose time I feel has come in Ontario. It's the

concept -- the power, if you will -- of recall as found in this private member's bill, the Recall Act, 2004.

One may ask why I am interested in recall. Well, 10 years ago, I first saw the need for recall power for people. I was chatting with a fellow from Markham, the

home to former MP Jag Bhaduria. After allegations of writing threatening letters and lying about his background, Bhaduria was the subject of petitions that garnered tens of thousands of signatures

for a recall. The result: While he was removed from the Liberal Party, Mr Bhaduria remained as the MP for Markham-Whitchurch-Stouffville until the next election, as there was no government

provision to recall that particular MP.

People were frustrated. They felt powerless in the face of government rules that only allow them a voice once every four years or so. I felt it wasn't right at

the time for the people in Markham-Whitchurch-Stouffville, and it isn't right for people today. The very concept of democracy, in my mind, speaks to the need for people to have decision-making

power on who represents them more than once every 2,000 days or so.

I will be clear: Recall is not a novel concept in North America or in Canada or in the province of Ontario. Over the last century there have been numerous

examples of governments taking the bold step to hold themselves accountable to people -- again, not only on election day but every day. In this House alone, over the last decade there have been

recall provisions brought forward by members of both the Conservative and Liberal parties. In 1993, Liberal MPP Carman McClelland introduced a private member's bill entitled the Recall Election

Request Act, supported by a number of present cabinet ministers -- Monte Kwinter and Gerry Phillips, to name a couple. Less than a year later, a PC MPP, Don Cousens, introduced a recall process

resolution. Again, despite support for recall crossing party lines, these initiatives never became law.

In other jurisdictions, recall has had a long and storied history. Fifteen states in the United States employ recall for elected state officials. Half of these

jurisdictions adopted recall before the First World War in response to the party machine corruption and scandals of that era. I note that most states allow recall of elected local officials.

I will mention the California recall legislation. That was introduced in 1911. While proponents favoured the amendment as another mechanism to fight graft and

corruption in government, opponents criticized it as a device that extremists and malcontents could employ to harass and remove honest officials. History has proven their fears unfounded, however,

as, despite numerous attempts to utilize recall, the bar for a recall election was set at a suitable level, and it was not until 92 years later that Governor Gray Davis became the first statewide

official to face a recall election. In the Governor's case, the recall process was set in motion when 80,000 petitioners, which was greater than 12% of the vote count in the previous election,

signed petitions to recall the Governor on grounds of both financial and electricity mismanagement.

Back on this side of the border, in 1935, William Aberhart's Alberta brought in recall legislation that was itself recalled within a year when, to his horror,

Premier Aberhart discovered it was being used against him. Presently, British Columbia is the only province in Canada to allow its people the power of recall over elected officials. BC's NDP

government adopted recall legislation in 1994, and since that time none of the 20 recall campaigns has been successful.

You're probably asking yourselves in the House: what is recall? As I've been suggesting over the past few minutes, recall is a procedure for voters to hold

their elected representatives to account before the end of their elected term. In the case of this private member's bill, the Recall Act, any elected member may be recalled for conduct unbecoming a

member after a year in office. In addition, a Premier would be subject to a province-wide recall process in which all qualified voters in the province would be allowed to participate.

To initiate the process, any voter in a member's riding can apply to the Integrity Commissioner to approve the issuing of a recall petition. As I suggested

earlier, to ensure that recall powers are not abused, the bar to qualify for recall must be set at an adequate height to discourage any irresponsible applications. The first such bar is set at the

Office of the Integrity Commissioner. If the Integrity Commissioner decides an application is frivolous or not made in good faith, it's immediately denied. Otherwise, the commissioner would conduct

a hearing within two months to determine whether, on the balance of probabilities, the member has engaged in conduct unbecoming a member. If the commissioner determines that there are valid

reasons, the commissioner will issue a ruling in writing and approve the issuing of a recall petition. Once the petitions have been issued, they must be returned within a year to qualify for a

possible recall referendum.

A writ will be issued for a recall referendum if, and only if, the number of qualified signatures on the petition is more than 25% of the total votes passed in

the preceding election in the electoral district to which the petition relates. This minimum requirement sets a higher bar for recall referendums than in California, for example, where it's 12% of

votes cast.

Once the writ has been issued, the chief electoral officer must call a referendum for a date at least 28 days and not more than 56 days later. On the day of

the referendum, if more than 50% of the votes cast are in favour of the recall, the member ceases to hold office, his or her seat becomes vacant and we have a replacement election, obviously.

So, there you have it, members: application, hearing, petitions, referendum and, finally, recall. These are the five hurdles that would have to be overcome for

a member to be recalled from the Ontario Legislature.

I believe this empowering legislation gives government one more chance to live up to the campaign commitment to strengthen democracy through democratic

renewal. The Recall Act lives up, in my view, to the true meaning of democracy by giving governing power to the people, the power to retain or to remove elected representatives at times other than

election days. By ensuring that electors have power today and every day, rather than only when government deigns to call an election, recall enhances the dialogue between electors and

representatives that's so key to our democratic process. This is a principle that, I feel, speaks to the democratic renewal commitment that the current government was elected on.

I look forward to support, obviously, as we continue the debate this morning on what I consider empowering legislation. Through recall, voters would never

again feel powerless when faced with an elected representative who engages in conduct unbecoming a member -- for instance, breaking promises, being implicated in scandals or other unbecoming

conduct.

Hon John Gerretsen (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, minister responsible for seniors): Well then, all of you should have been

recalled last time.

Mr Barrett: Again, I'm not thinking of you, Mr Gerretsen; I'm thinking back to Jag Bhaduria. If recall was in place, the anger of the

electorate would no longer swell, frustrated and helpless, for the four years of a distant autocracy that we can see in a majority government. Majority government members can proceed unchecked --

we know this -- with little accountability to the people who put them there in the first place.

Today I'm looking for support for a concept. I feel the time has come for Ontario to have recall. Obviously, no one here has anything to be afraid of or to

hide. I just ask the assembly here to think beyond your present term, perhaps as legislators in California did back in 1911. Hopefully this process will never be required in the province of

Ontario.

Mrs Maria Van Bommel (Lambton-Kent-Middlesex): As a rookie MPP, I took a look at this particular act with great interest. At first, I thought

that the issues of accountability and how to deal with a member of Parliament who had acted in a way that was unbecoming of a member was very important. But then I got thinking about the whole

process, and the more I got into it, the more concerns I had about this particular bill.

The issue of accountability in terms of conduct, I thought, as a rookie, belonged to the Integrity Commissioner and was dealt with under the Members' Integrity

Act. I think the recall bill overlaps with that to a great extent. If it's an issue of conduct of the member, then I think that the jurisdiction for that belongs to the Integrity Commissioner. If

it's an issue of whether the voter feels that the policies that the member is advocating and supporting are offensive, then it becomes a political action rather than an issue of the individual's

conduct. At that point, I started to look at the issue around, is there potential for abuse of this process? I really begin to worry about that, because I think that voters can target individuals

if they are afraid or concerned about the policies they've brought forward. As a matter of fact, my concern is, it could become as extreme as a voter who is unsatisfied with the election result

coming forward the next day and asking for a petition for a recall just because they don't like the result of the vote.

I read further into the package that the member from Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant put together, and I noticed the bill says this can only be done once per

government. What happens if there's a situation that's even more grievous and we've already had one recall? How do we deal with that? Do we simply go back to what we have now, which is that we

bring it to the Integrity Commissioner and the Integrity Commissioner deals with it? What is the point of doing it if that's the issue?

In a lot of ways in terms of accountability, we've already had situations in the past where things such as public pressure and the media have dealt with issues

of accountability. I can think of one particular incident where I had a view on the news of a member riding his horse in Oklahoma. The whole issue of his absence from the House was brought up, and

I think public pressure was brought to bear and the member resigned. So there are already ways we have in terms of accountability. As I said, there is the issue of overlap.

Another part of the information I received from the member for Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant talks about success and what constitutes success of a recall, ands it

says 50% of the votes cast. My experience, in most cases, is that people who are not unhappy, who have no concerns, tend to stay home. How are you going to be sure, when it says 50% of those who

cast votes, that the vote is truly reflective of how a member's riding really feels about the action? I think it should actually be something like 50% of eligible or registered voters. As I said

earlier, I find that most people will stay home if they're very happy with a situation. They feel there's just a small group who are protesting and they don't want to be involved in that.

At this time, I want to let the Speaker know that I'm going to be sharing my time with the member from Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh and the member from St

Catharines.

The Deputy Speaker: Further debate? I'm looking to -- I just wanted to make sure you wanted to be in the rotation -- the member for

Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford.

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): I'm certainly pleased to join the debate with respect to the member from

Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant's piece of legislation, which we're dealing with here, called the Recall Act, 2004. The recall of an elected member has been subject to a lot of discussion in the last few

years. We know there's a procedure in British Columbia with respect to dealing with this, essentially arising from the elections they had in 1999, I think, or thereabouts, and probably the most

celebrated case was the one in California with respect to the recall of Governor Gray Davis.

This is an issue that obviously deals with accountability. Certainly in an election we're dealing with situations where, because we have first past the post,

the individual who is elected may be elected on 30% of the vote or on 50% of the vote -- who knows? It just depends on how that particular riding works out. As members, we're all subject to the

Members' Integrity Act, in terms of the conduct that we are held to and the powers that have been given to the integrity officer in that regard. The Election Act sets out standards for members with

respect to the type of conduct and who can become a member and who can't. Obviously, so the public knows, there are preconditions for people to be able to run under the Election Act; and there are

also the Members' Integrity Act and the Election Act in terms of conduct of members, what is expected of them and what's not permitted.

I think the member here is looking to bring further accountability into the system. I'm not against accountability for the system. A recall act, such as it is,

is something that merits consideration by this House because it is private members' business and we always give very serious consideration to private members' bills or resolutions that are put

before the House.

I guess my concerns with respect to what's being proposed here have to do with procedure as well as form. The procedure is in terms of not creating a process

that will subject the member, who is trying to do his or her job, to challenges at any time with respect to complaints that are put forth to the Integrity Commissioner. That process is out there at

any time. A member can put to the Integrity Commissioner a complaint against another member with respect to conduct. That is already there. I guess the question is that when you have a riding as

large as mine and you have a procedure that would allow anyone to get into that, the member would spend more time with respect to dealing with situations that may be partisan-driven as opposed to

any substance. If a member has done something wrong, there is a criminal procedure, if it falls within that bailiwick. There is also the provincial procedure and there is also the Members'

Integrity Act.

I think what the member is trying to do here is to put a precondition with respect to conduct. In fact, if it is wrongdoing, then you would have a context of

saying that this conduct was wrong, through the Integrity Commissioner, and then go forth to the petition. What we're looking at here is that the petition would be 25%, and then, if there's a vote,

it's more than 50% of who votes. You look at the fairness of it, saying that if an individual is elected by 50% or more of the people, then 25% of the people can have that particular member subject

to recall. I think that's something that has to be looked at very seriously because there's a lot of money put into the election of a member by the taxpayer. There is a lot of effort put into the

system in terms of the election, by the member and the people who support the member in terms of their election.

I would think that if we were going to consider this further and give it more serious consideration, what we're dealing with here is not something that can be

taken over by partisanship. It has to be dealt with on substance, in terms of not adding on to the layers of accountability that already exist for a member with respect to breach of trust of their

position, which is already watch-dogged by the criminal procedure, and also situations that are governed in terms of conduct of the member under the Members' Integrity Act.

I look forward to the debate on this. Certainly it merits consideration. I think the member's intentions are in good faith. I think there is going to have to

be a serious look at it from a procedural point of view to bring some fairness and balance not only to the members' rights but also to the election process, to not make it a farce, because once a

member is elected and given the responsibilities, they shouldn't have to face another election that is partisan in terms of dealing with their right to serve their constituency.

Mr Jim Brownell (Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh): I would like to let the Speaker know that I'm sharing my time with the members from

Scarborough Southwest and St Catharines.

It's a pleasure to rise today to speak on this bill, having read in the Simcoe Reformer on March 17 that it was going to be brought forward. It is a bill that

is intended to hold elected representatives accountable. Well, I was elected on October 2, and when I put my hand on my late grandmother's Bible on my swearing-in day, that was the day I said to my

constituents that I would be accountable here at Queen's Park. That's exactly what I intend to do.

In speaking against Bill 39, I would like to make strong references to the Office of the Integrity Commissioner. We all went through a process with the

Integrity Commissioner before swearing on that Bible, and I went through the investigation knowing that I had to live up to certain standards, that there were certain opportunities that I had and

that I had to live up to those opportunities in a parliamentary and proper fashion. In this province, we hold our parliamentarians accountable between elections by means of parliamentary

responsibility. For example, we as members have responsibilities to the Office of the Integrity Commissioner. We have responsibilities to the electorate by our conduct and words in question period,

in the debates on bills and in our effectiveness as members of the government or opposition. Here at Queen's Park and in our work on behalf of our constituents, we have daily opportunities to be

accountable. If not, then it's our responsibility to get out of the kitchen and resign.

With the Office of the Integrity Commissioner and its close observations of our actions in the House and on behalf of our constituents and Ontarians, I believe

our conduct is always closely checked and under scrutiny. I would like to ask, what do the Tories have against the Office of the Integrity Commissioner? Day after day during the past couple of

weeks, we have seen that they do not accept the rulings on our Minister of Finance, the capable and honourable Greg Sorbara. We've heard them hammered day after day. With Bill 39, once again they

do not accept that his rulings will result in resignations. They really must have a problem with the Office of the Integrity Commissioner. We on the government side don't.

Mr Speaker, this proposed bill would require the Integrity Commissioner to rule that recall is justified. As you know, such a ruling would normally result in

resignations anyway. We saw that in past governments with MPP Chris Stockwell and MPP John Snobelen. The wrath of Ontarians came down and we saw what happened.

This Legislature has the power to remove members who choose not to resign. It happened back in 1884 to Adam Crooks, when a motion of the committee on privilege

and elections declared his seat vacant. It was carried. A writ was dropped and a by-election held.

Establishing recall in any political context allows it to be a highly politicized process. I look at BC, where they have gone through 20 recall campaigns, a

process costing over half a million dollars, and nothing has been done; no recall has been successful. Look at California. Has it made things better? I don't think so.

I do want to say, in speaking of the bill itself, there are sections -- especially the details of the application for recall, the structure and composition of

the recall application, and the protocol and procedures -- that need some work. We do need parliamentary reform, but I really don't think it's through the recall process. We have to put our minds

together. We have to understand that recall will be just another jumble in the electoral mix, a jumble which, quite frankly, we do not need. We do not need to Americanize our political process.

Mr Ernie Hardeman (Oxford): I'm pleased to rise and speak in support of Bill 39, not necessarily in its entirety or the total package,

recognizing that when you debate the package, it goes for hearings and some amendments before we get to the final third reading, because I do have some problems with some of the intricacies of how

the recall legislation would be implemented, but I strongly support the need for this type of legislation. I think we've heard a considerable amount of debate about the Integrity Commissioner. We

just heard the member across the aisle speaking about not needing anything more than the Integrity Commissioner, but there are a lot of things that can happen here in this place that are not

necessarily against the Members' Integrity Act but need to be able to be addressed by the people who voted for me or who supported me to be here.

I think of one, and I don't think anyone in this Legislature needs to worry about this legislation, because I don't think anyone would do it, but it appears

that I can get elected on October 2, take one trip to Toronto, be sworn in as a member of this Legislature and then not come back again until the next election and get paid for four years doing

another job. There is no one, no system in place that prevents that from happening. I think the people of Oxford have the right, if I chose to take that route, or need a system in place to make

sure that they could have a representative to look after their needs. That's one of the things that needs to be addressed.

I just want to read quickly here -- and it's from a news release that the member from Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant, who introduced this bill, referred to: "I do

believe that in any democratic society the electorate should have the right to hold elected officials accountable between elections."

I think that's so important, but what becomes even more important in this bill, and where the Integrity Commissioner has no authority, is to hold governments

accountable through the Premier. This bill, of course, addresses the recall of a Premier, and I think it becomes so important that it's not against the Members' Integrity Act, but when we go to the

people in an election, we actually put forward a proposal: "If you vote for this party platform or this government, these are the things that we will do." I think it becomes important that people

don't have to wait four years. In this case they knew in less than six weeks after the election that they were not going to live up to the promise, but there's absolutely nothing that can be done

for four years.

Yesterday we had a great debate here in the House about the treatment for autistic children, and in fact a letter was read out in this Legislature that pointed

out that the Premier had said that this was discriminatory, and that immediately upon being elected, the Premier would change that, that they would provide these services for autistic children. It

has become quite clear that's not what happened, but there's nothing that the people can do about that.

The people in my riding were very concerned about what would happen to the price of hydro if changes were made. We remember the previous government capped the

price of hydro at 4.3 cents. It was quite clear during the election campaign, when the now Premier said, "Elect a Liberal government and the price cap of 4.3 cents will stay in place at least until

2006." That's what my people believed. Now, all of a sudden, they say, "No, that was before the election. After the election, we're going to have to put it up to make it viable. We're going to have

to put it up at least to 5.5, and we're not going to guarantee to leave it there. We may have to raise it even more than that."

I think we need a system to allow people to say, "No, that's not what you told us, and you have to stand up for what you said, and we should be given the

opportunity to make a judgment call." The recall doesn't say that it would automatically happen. He may be able to, in the process, justify what was done, and the people would say, "No, we're not

going to have a recall," but I think we need a system in place that would allow that to happen.

I do have some concern, and that's why I say I hope that when the bill goes to committee, there are some changes made, and some reference has been made to Gray

Davis's recall in California.

I have a problem with the fact that we first have a recall vote, and 49% of the people who voted said they didn't want to recall and 51% said they did want a

recall. So they have a recall, and then the person who replaced the then governor was elected with 26% of the vote. Now that says to me that some 74% of the people didn't want the new governor,

when only 49% didn't want the present government. So in my opinion, that system doesn't work very well.

But then, as the member from Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant mentioned, that was put in place in 1911, and electricity prices were not a problem in California in 1911.

So maybe the rules weren't written quite the way they were needed today.

I strongly support this piece of legislation. I hope that everyone in the Legislature this morning will support it to go on to committee to have it corrected

or some changes made to make it a solid piece of legislation to provide the type of accountability that the people of Ontario are entitled to.

Mr Michael Prue (Beaches-East York): I rise to speak on the private member's bill put forward by the member from Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant. I

must tell you that I cannot support this bill. I do not believe that anyone in my party can support this bill.

This is nothing more than an importation of US politics into Canada. They have a vastly different system. I will tell you, even there their system does not

work, for many of the reasons enunciated by the previous speaker here. They don't work. Maybe they're old, but they simply do not work. All we see is the fascination of people watching on

television, watching the Terminator duke it out with Gary Coleman. That's what we watched for weeks and weeks. Then, after the recall was successful, only 26% actually bothered to go out and vote.

It just doesn't work.

This has been adopted in British Columbia, as has been said by other speakers; and 10 or 15 years ago, people were looking for mechanisms to try to control

politicians. But if anything proves that this is not a bill that's going to work, it's the BC example, where it has been tried 20 times and 20 times has failed; 20 times with people running around

trying to get signatures; 20 times with millions of dollars being spent; 20 times with expectations being dashed and all to no avail. To adopt it here, I would suggest, is just going to doom it.

Ontario will just follow a failed policy.

Even the Reform Party, which once championed this, which once had it front and centre in their list of suggestions that they wanted to do, has now seen -- I

think it's the Reform Party with a few Conservatives in it now. But the Reform Party of today, the new Conservative Party, appears to have dropped this from its agenda.

Hon James J. Bradley (Minister of Tourism and Recreation): Hostile takeover.

Mr Prue: Yes, it was a hostile takeover.

This bill, in my view, has at least eight serious deficiencies, maybe more, but time permits me only to deal with the most egregious ones.

The first is that it will, by its very nature, increase partisan bitterness in this House. People will attempt to use the Integrity Commissioner for partisan

purposes, trying to remove a member or members whom they do not like.

Number 2 is that it involves a three-step process. The three-step process is one more than takes place in British Columbia, with all its faults and its

failures. That step is to involve the Integrity Commissioner first. It will take an additional 60 to 90 days, or whatever the period is, for the Integrity Commissioner to research it. It's a

three-step process, which makes it even more impossible to remove someone.

Number 3 is that the position of the Integrity Commissioner himself or herself should be above politics. What you are doing with this bill is drawing the

Integrity Commissioner right into the heart of this Legislature, right into the heart of the political process, where the Integrity Commissioner is having to rule on largely political facts and

factors, which he or she ought not to do. The Integrity Commissioner should and must remain above all of this.

Number 4: The bill has no definition of the conduct unbecoming a member. There is no definition in the bill. So what is conduct unbecoming a member? Is it to

stand up in the House and make a silly speech? Is it to refuse to apologize if you have been unfair to a member? Is it to swear in the House? What is "conduct unbecoming a member"? I tried to find

out where this is. Where is the definition of "conduct unbecoming a member"?

I will tell you, and I may have missed it, that we went through a couple of acts trying to look for it. Is it in the Members' Integrity Act? No, there's no

definition there. Is it in the Elections Act? There's no definition in there of "conduct unbecoming a member." Is it in the Legislative Assembly Act? Again, there is nothing there.

So what is "conduct unbecoming a member"? There is nothing in the bill. We are being asked to support a bill where a member can be recalled and there is

absolutely no definition of what that conduct might entail, leaving it solely up to the discretion of the Integrity Commissioner.

Number 5: This will require that there be a valid voters' list. If you're going to have to get 25% of the voters, you're going to have to determine where those

voters come from. Are you going to use the old list, which might be two or three years old? We all know what happens now every election year: You're trying to use old voters' lists and people are

running in at the last time trying to vote. How do you determine who those 25% are? If they've recently moved into the riding, they may not even have been there at the last vote. Are they entitled

to vote? We don't know. Where is the voters' list? What are you going to use?

Number 6: We have a multiparty system in this province and throughout Canada. We saw in the last election how the parties had portions of the vote. No party

got 50%. Many members in this House did not get 50% of the vote to be elected. That's the system. We know the rules. You could, in this Legislature, be elected with 30% or 32% or 33% of the vote;

you could be here.

You could have it that the majority of your residents didn't vote for you, and then that same majority could come back and say, "I didn't vote for him, so I'm

going to sign this, because I want him gone because I really wanted someone else," and for no reason other than that, on the most frivolous of grounds. If it's good enough to elect a member on a

plurality vote, as we have today, then you cannot un-elect a member with the same thing. If you can get 30% of the vote and be elected to this Legislature, you can't say that 50% is enough to kick

you out. It makes no sense at all.

Number 7: There's nothing in the bill that talks about the spending limits. It is said they will be left to the regulations. However, in the Elections Act,

which brings all the members here in the first place, it is embodied right in the act. We know what the election expenditures are. This is a lacuna here. This is a failure of the bill, to put in

how much money can actually be spent to recall a member. If we have rules on how much you can spend to get here, you should have the same rules embodied in the act, on how you get somebody out.

Because it's not there, this too is open to far too much discretion.

Last, but not least, number 8: I find it rather bizarre that to recall a Premier, who is, after all, the same as all of us in this House -- I understand that

the Premier has other responsibilities and gets paid more and has more power and prestige. I understand all that. But the Premier is, by definition, a member of this House and is elected in his or

her constituency, the same as all of us. This would mean that person would have an inordinate amount of -- trying to recall that person, his or her constituents would be put at a complete

disadvantage. If it's good enough to recall a member, then it should be good enough to recall the member who sits in the Premier's chair.

Quite frankly, we cannot support this bill for all of those reasons and many more. I wish I had more time to talk about the others. The real solution here, and

I hope Mr Bryant will consider this as he travels the province looking at parliamentary reform, is that there are two things that need to be done.

First of all, the parties need to be able to properly discipline members who do not behave in a manner becoming the position they hold. If a member fails, as

the previous speaker was saying, to show up for days and weeks on end, then that member should be called by the House leader or by the leader of the party and the law should be laid down.

If they continue not to show up, they should be removed from the caucus. If the member has transgressed, the member should be removed from the caucus. I think

back to the last House. There was a member from the Liberal Party who sat in that corner throughout the entire House because she had been removed, almost from the beginning, from the caucus and sat

alone as an independent. That was the decision of the Liberal Party. Take it as you want as to whether it was right or wrong, it was done.

Last but not least, we need a change in the law for proportional representation, because that, and that alone, will make sure the people's voices are

adequately heard at election time, where a vote really means a vote and where you get a say on which party is elected.

Mr Lorenzo Berardinetti (Scarborough Southwest): I'll be sharing my time with the member for St Catharines.

Following up on the remarks by the member for Beaches-East York, I agree with a great deal of what he had to say. What we're seeing here today, the phenomenon,

is something that is really born out of California, born out of western Canada and born out of the Reform Party. The once proud federal PC Party of Canada has been taken over, almost like a hostile

takeover, by the western element. They're the ones who are trying to implement this recall system. They're trying to do the same thing throughout Canada, and I think it has filtered down now to

that party and to this private member's bill today.

I cannot support this bill. Instead of looking at the California or BC model, I would rather look at the British parliamentary system, which has existed for

roughly 1,000 years and which I do not believe contains a recall process. That is a system that has worked. There are systems in place such as caucus discipline, and other mechanisms that allow

members to be disciplined if they're not behaving.

What's really at issue here is the whole aspect of being a politician and making a decision. Oftentimes we're asked to make a decision that's not popular. Some

of our decisions are very difficult to make. If we make a difficult decision, and if this piece of legislation were to pass, those that are opposed to it would prepare a petition, present it here

and have the member removed for making a difficult decision.

I remember my time as a city councillor when I had to make difficult decisions. I remember when we decided to take children from children's aid out of

institutions and put them into group homes. When that happened, the people in the communities were upset. It perhaps was not the most popular thing to do, but it was the right thing to do. If a

recall mechanism had existed back then, I wouldn't be in office today because the residents would have got a petition together, had a recall and tried to remove me from office.

Last election, in my riding, there were roughly 24,000 votes cast. Under the mechanism here, all that is required is 25% of the total votes cast to form a

petition. This means that roughly 5,000 signatures by someone out there in my riding who perhaps doesn't like me for whatever reason -- putting together 5,000 names, presenting it, and then the

whole recall mechanism is created. That's wrong and that's something I think we have to defeat here today. I wasn't elected on October 2 to do everything that's popular. If that were the case, I'd

make sure that everyone had two cars in their garage, food in their fridge, paid no money for their electricity and so on. We can't do that. There is an issue here about electoral responsibility

and doing the right thing.

Throughout history, people, politicians, have made difficult decisions that weren't necessarily the most popular decision but were the right decision. All one

has to look at is the example of Abraham Lincoln during the civil war. He was very unpopular and after four years people were asking the then president to try to sign some kind of peace treaty with

the south, some kind of agreement with the south. He refused to do that because he knew that was not the right thing to do. What if the people would have recalled him back then? Think of the

implications there.

Most recently, the concept here in Canada of whether or not to send troops to Iraq: The federal government decided not to do that. Perhaps it was not a popular

decision. There were lots of people who wanted to do that. Yet if we had done that, if the Prime Minister at the time had decided to do the popular thing and sent troops to Iraq, there would be a

lot of dead Canadians today, just like there are dead Spaniards and dead Americans and so many others who have died in that battle. A decision was made that wasn't perhaps the most popular decision

but was the right decision to make.

So this is a very dangerous piece of legislation. I think the referendum is held at election time. It was held on October 2. I think there is a little bit of

anger perhaps on the opposition benches with the results of that election and this is the sort of response that we see: legislation that would have us go out perhaps next spring and have another

election. It's costly, it's not worth doing and I think it's the wrong thing. This thing has to be defeated today and I hope members will follow that and defeat this today.

Mr Garfield Dunlop (Simcoe North): I'm pleased to be here this afternoon to support my colleague --

Mr Michael A. Brown (Algoma-Manitoulin): It's morning.

Mr Dunlop: This morning, OK. I get up at 5 o'clock every day, guys, so I put in a day's work before most of you guys get up.

Interjections.

Mr Dunlop: It's a fact. I never see anybody around here until about 10 o'clock. So what's going on with you? Come on, get to work. You're paid

to be down here and do some work.

The fact of the matter is --

Interjections.

Mr Dunlop: Mr Speaker, you can disturb these people so easily, I'm telling you.

I want to say this morning how I'm here to support my colleague Toby Barrett, the member for Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant, on this particular piece of legislation.

What's important about it is that it falls in line with the fact that the Premier, Mr McGuinty, has actually formed a ministry in the Attorney General's office for democratic renewal. I'm hoping

that the whole process of democratic renewal will be a long-term process. I hope we'll look at all types of options and give the people in the province of Ontario all kinds of opportunities to

discuss the proposals in any democratic renewal legislation you bring forward. I think this is an excellent opportunity to bring forth something like the recall legislation. It may or may not be

part of the final analysis or the final changes the minister would want to bring in for democratic renewal, but it's an opportunity and it's an option.

What is very important for Mr Barrett and for our caucus is that we like to have -- at least myself; I'm not saying the whole caucus supports it. The same

probably with you folks: Maybe not everyone would support it. But the fact of the matter is, it's an interesting piece of legislation. It gives another opportunity for citizens to see democracy at

work. I think that's what the minister of democratic renewal would like to see. That's why I'm actually supporting this.

A private member's bill is just that. We all get up and we have an opportunity to vote. It should be a free vote. I hope it's a free vote today because it's a

democratic renewal issue. I hope you people are all going to voice your concerns and vote with your minds, not with Dalton McGuinty's office.

Mr David Orazietti (Sault Ste Marie): Why didn't you do it?

Mr Dunlop: I'm simply saying to you, if you believe in democratic renewal, you won't vote en masse against this bill at private members'

business. That's very simple.

I have a couple of minutes left and I do want to share them with my colleague from Oak Ridges. I appreciate the opportunity this morning to be here and I thank

the member for bringing this very interesting piece of legislation forward, which I will be supporting.

Hon Mr Bradley: I have an opportunity to speak on this because I have some very strong feelings, and it's not because it's emanating from the

opposition or from any particular political party. I think this idea of recall is bizarre. It was brought to its extreme in California where we saw an actor who was brought out of the movies and

immediately in as the governor of California through a recall process which was in itself, I recognize, not the same as the member is proposing, but which made a laughingstock of the state of

California when we saw this happening.

This is an idea which is American. This is not our British parliamentary tradition. I can remember when the Conservative Party stood for the British

parliamentary tradition which I believe in, and that is, where there is accountability in this House through responsible government because we are a combined executive and legislative body.

What this opens us up to is a rich group of people wanting to get rid of an unpopular member of the Legislature who may have taken an unpopular stand on an

issue. This really leaves it open to very wealthy interests who, for instance, may have an interest in a development that takes place that a member is blocking. They then have an opportunity to put

together a plan, together with spending a lot of money, to get rid of that member. I say that the electorate should make that decision at election time. I can think of some instances, but I won't

share them with you at this time.

I realize it's more popular in western Canada, particularly in the province of Alberta, where a lot of ideas seem to be permeating into the east now. I

remember I watched the Conservative Party convention when they were choosing their national leader. Who was the keynote speaker? Ralph Klein. That is the picture of the Conservative Party of Canada

now -- Ralph Klein. Those who think that his ideas apply to the east, I'll tell you, should look very, very carefully at that. I believe in the British parliamentary system. I think this is open to

abuse, such great abuse. I believe we have an opportunity at election time. Just because the Conservative Party promised to close no hospitals, then closed a whole raft of hospitals, didn't mean

that I was calling for the recall. I was, instead, calling for, at election time, a decision to be made, and that decision was made.

Mr Frank Klees (Oak Ridges): I wanted to rise in support of my colleague's bill. I want to make it clear: This is a vote today in principle.

Should, in fact, there be a mechanism for the electorate to recall a member of the Legislature? In principle, I believe that there should be. There are clearly some issues with the bill, in terms

of its details and so on, that I also have some concerns with. Those are things that can be worked out in committee, but it's the principle that we're discussing.

To the member from St Catharines, I can't tell you the number of people who are coming to me and saying, "How can we recall Dalton McGuinty? What is it that we

can do to recall this government that has made so many promises that they're not keeping?" That's really at the heart of this, and I think the reason that the Liberal Party is saying "no" to this

and will say "no" -- I predict that every member of the Liberal Party will vote against this. Why? Because they know, if this bill ever became law, the whole bunch of you would be recalled. Yes, we

would in fact have an election. I just say to you, I think this exercise that we'll go through in this vote today will be so revealing about the angst that the Liberal caucus has, the insecurity

they have about their jobs as legislators -- I predict the Liberals will vote against this bill to the person.

The Deputy Speaker: The member for Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant has two minutes to reply.

Mr Barrett: I really appreciate the ideas and the information that have been kicked around this morning. We've received input from a total of

10 ridings and, personally, I welcome that kind of feedback.

The member from Lambton-Kent-Middlesex kicked off a concern. The 50% of the votes cast: This does apply to eligible voters. You have to be old enough to vote.

You have to be a Canadian citizen to vote on this referendum. I just wanted to clarify that. You have to be a resident, an elector, in that riding to vote on this.

The member for Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford raised the question of 25% of electors being names on the petition have to be qualified voters. Their signature has to be

vetted by the person taking the petition around. This is not any kind of anonymous Rick Mercer farcical Internet name process. They have to be witnessed. Their signatures have to be vetted and

matched with the eligible voters' list. So there are checks and balances there.

To the member for Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh, to counter your view, this bill is not against the Integrity Commissioner. The Integrity Commissioner plays

a very comprehensive role. The Integrity Commissioner is the first hurdle. He decides whether this would be frivolous or vexatious. The member for Oxford pointed out that an MPP, once elected, can

show up once and take off for the rest of their term, just to use that example. Maybe for that reason alone there is merit in continuing discussion on this debate.

The Deputy Speaker: The time for private members' public business has expired.

ELDER ABUSE PREVENTION DAY

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bruce Crozier Essex): We will first deal with ballot item 9, motion 10, by Mr Zimmer.

Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

RECALL ACT, 2004 /

LOI DE 2004

SUR LA RÉVOCATION DES DÉPUTÉS

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bruce Crozier Essex): We will now deal with ballot item 10, that being second reading of Bill 39,

An Act to amend the

Election Act respecting the recall of Members of the Assembly, standing in the name of Mr Barrett.

Is it the pleasure of the House the motion carry?

All those in favour will say "aye."

All those opposed will say "nay."

In my opinion, the nays have it. The bill is defeated.

Private members' public business now having been concluded, this House is adjourned until 1 : 30 of the clock.

The House recessed from 1158 to 1330.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

ABORIGINAL HEALTH CARE

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): I'm pleased that the government has taken notice of the success of the aboriginal healing and

wellness strategy program and is carrying on this innovative policy that has continually improved the health and well-being of aboriginal communities across this province.

I believe this unique partnership between our province and 15 aboriginal organizations and First Nations is a success because it allows aboriginal people to

have direct input into services and programs, and provides the arena and tools so that aboriginal people can design, deliver and manage their priorities while respecting traditional aboriginal

values and practices.

I'm a proud supporter of this initiative and look forward to continuing to work with First Nations people, groups and organizations across this province in

building on this achievement.

INTERNATIONAL

WALK TO SCHOOL AWARD

Mr Vic Dhillon (Brampton West-Mississauga): I would like to congratulate Morton Way Public School in Brampton for having been chosen as the

first runner-up for the first-ever International Walk to School Award.

For the past three years, Morton Way has celebrated Walking Wednesdays, which encourages students to walk to and from school one day a week. Amazingly, between

88% and 98% of the students at the school participate in the program each week, trading in their daily bus ride for some exercise, some fresh air and some time spent with neighbours, parents and

friends.

This program has participants in 29 countries around the world, and this prestigious distinction is extremely well deserved for those at Morton Way Public

School who make this event happen every week. This program truly is wonderful and is a shining example for schools around the world.

I would like to thank these organizers for doing their

part in developing healthy habits in children and for helping them stay active and fit. I thank them

also for their contribution to the environment by promoting environmental awareness among students, and for diminishing pollution and gridlock in the surrounding neighbourhoods. This program shows

both children and parents the importance of their physical and environmental health and shows them how we can all do our part to reduce pollution in our communities.

All of us in Brampton West-Mississauga are proud of the efforts of Morton Way Public School and I'm happy to be able to recognize those efforts here today.

UNIVERSITY FUNDING

Mrs Elizabeth Witmer (Kitchener-Waterloo): The announcement today by the Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities of $48 million in

funding for colleges and universities to compensate for the first year of tuition totally undermines the stability and quality of our universities and colleges. It is a political announcement that

is woefully inadequate.

In consultation with those at the university and college level, I have learned that the $41 million for universities does not fully compensate them, because

they needed $70 million for the first year of the tuition freeze. In fact, it badly hurts the students and their quality of education since it is one-time funding only and there is absolutely no

guarantee it will be rolled into the base next year.

This announcement means the universities cannot count on more money for future years. It means they cannot hire badly needed additional or replacement faculty,

nor can they do ongoing long-term planning for future years. There is also no money here for the research fund we put in place. It does not provide any guarantee that the quality assurance fund we

set up last year to provide $75 million, and to increase to $130 million and then $200 million, will be continued. This was set up to address the decrease in funding by all three parties over three

decades.

CHILD SAFETY

Mr Wayne Arthurs (Pickering-Ajax-Uxbridge): I just had the opportunity to walk across from the Whitney Block. The sun is shining and it's a

wonderful spring day.

I want to take this opportunity as we look forward to an extended weekend to offer a small note of caution. While we are enjoying the warming rays of the sun

and the longer daylight hours, some of our children may find themselves at some risk of harm. The creeks and rivers are running full and faster, and in some instances they are overflowing their

banks. Ice is fast receding from our lakes. The risk of accidents and injuries to children playing around the waterways is particularly high at this time of year. While we enjoy the time away from

our workplaces and the pleasure of family time, we need to be extra vigilant to ensure it is a safe time as well.

Ontario is blessed with beauty in both its urban and rural settings, and we should avail ourselves of the opportunity to enjoy it. Included in my riding are

the wonderful attributes of the Rouge River, Duffins Creek, and the Lake Ontario waterfront. I hope my constituents visit these wonderful places as well as others, but do so with the potential risk

in mind and do so safely. I encourage all Ontarians to act similarly over the days and weeks ahead.

NORTHEAST MENTAL

HEALTH CENTRE

Ms Shelley Martel (Nickel Belt): The Northeast Mental Health Centre is in crisis. In order to balance its books, the centre must cut $2.3

million from its budget. This will have serious consequences for children and adults in northeastern Ontario who suffer from mental illness.

The first round of cuts impacts children. They include the end of the district day treatment program, which provides mental health services to secondary

students; the end of mental health services for children in CAS foster homes; the end of mental health services for children under six living in Sudbury district east, in Espanola and on Manitoulin

Island; a reduction of services to children who are dually diagnosed with mental illness and developmental disabilities; and a reduction in the preschool speech and language program so that the

waiting list for service will grow from eight months to one year.

These cuts will have a devastating impact on children, but they're not alone. The board will make more decisions about cuts on April 16, and these cuts will

involve adult and community-based programs. They will have serious consequences too.

On February 23, I wrote to both the Minister of Health and the Minister of Children and Youth Services about this issue. I asked both to intervene immediately

so there would be no loss of service or staff. In response to a question I raised last week, the Minister of Health said the government is working on it, but difficult cuts are underway and more

will be made.

The centre needs to know now what the government is going to do to protect patients and mental health services. I call on the government today to announce

additional funds for the Northeast Mental Health Centre.

ANTI-SMOKING CAMPAIGN

Mr Phil McNeely (Ottawa-Orléans): Later today I will be presenting a petition from the students of St Peter Catholic High School in my

riding of Ottawa-Orléans. These exceptional students are taking

part in an advocacy campaign for a smoke-free Ontario. The project was spearheaded by the exposé team, which includes

Samantha Armour, Monica Rondeau, Bailey Vieau, Kate Heney, Cassandra Steffensen, Andrew Showers, Adam Warner, Tristan Phillipe, Dylan Stogran, Rosa Zito and Kevin Richardson.

These young activists organized the distribution of 1,800 blue ribbons to all of the students in the school who support the campaign to "Examine the Facts,

Express your Thoughts, Expose the Truth About Tobacco." St Peter is the only school among the 40 participating from the Ottawa area that has chosen to turn to the Ontario Legislature to advance

their message and petition members to pass legislation to protect Ontarians from tobacco smoke in all public and work places. I commend their efforts and the example they represent of youth who are

working hard to affect public policy for the benefit all citizens in this province. With their invaluable perspectives and contribution to the debate, we may be able to learn how best to encourage

those who might be tempted to smoke to never do so.

These students from St Peter have shown that health promotion activities, whether through quitting smoking, better diet or more exercise, can be effectively

promoted by dedicated young people in our schools. I commend public health nurses like Beverly MacSween for being their catalyst.

SAFE DRINKING WATER LEGISLATION

Mr Bill Murdoch (Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound): I rise in the House today to remind the government about a negative impact that safe drinking water

regulations are having in rural and northern Ontario.

The upgrades to facilities and the testing requirements that are now mandatory under regulation 170 are coming at far too high a cost and do not allow the time

necessary for municipalities to adhere. There is a genuine threat that these regulations will force community halls, arenas, churches and restaurants across this province to close their doors or

disconnect their plumbing. It is no secret that these facilities offer a great deal to the rural and northern way of life.

I was pleased on Monday, March 29, when Liberal MPP Jim Brownell asked Minister Dombrowsky a question on this topic. However, I was shocked by the lack of an

answer that the minister provided him in return. This was a scripted question with a scripted answer. I don't believe Mr Brownell could have gone back to his municipal leaders with a clear

conscience to tell them that the minister was committed to finding a solution to this problem. Quite frankly, she didn't even answer his question.

I have written two letters to Minister Dombrowsky regarding this topic and I have yet to receive a response. In the letters I made a suggestion and I will

restate my position here today: I believe that the working group that had been set up before the election, between AMO, municipal leaders and the Ministry of the Environment, should be

re-established with added participation from the Ministry of Health.

This is the only way to find a solution to this problem. I think we sometimes forget around here that bureaucratic inflexibility and iron fist enforcement are

not the only way to solve problems.

EASTER GREETINGS

Mr Lorenzo Berardinetti (Scarborough Southwest): I rise today on behalf of the House to bring Easter greetings, not only to my constituents in

the riding of Scarborough Southwest but also to the people of Ontario.

Easter is a time for families to come together and spend time with each other. In a place as rich in diversity as Ontario, this holiday is celebrated in many

different ways. Whether it is the traditional Greek mageritsa, the Ethiopian dabo or the Brazilian paçoca, or just plain old Ontario ham, many mark the end of Lent and the arrival of spring

with food, drink and celebration.

While at Easter we celebrate the death and resurrection of Christ, it is also a time to celebrate the end of winter and the coming of spring. Around Queen's

Park and in gardens across Ontario, the first flowers have begun poking through the ground and robins have returned to build their nests and raise their young. After a long winter, it's nice to see

the days getting longer, the evenings warmer and the grass greener.

On behalf of the government of Ontario, I would like to extend my warmest wishes to all members of this House, their families and all the families across

Ontario who will be coming together to celebrate Easter.

FIREARMS CONTROL

Mr Robert W. Runciman (Leeds-Grenville): Yesterday I asked the Attorney General, Michael Bryant, what the Liberal government's position is

regarding the prosecution of criminal charges under the notorious federal Liberals' long gun registry, Bill C-68.

As members will recall, former Attorney General David Young had announced that the Ontario Conservative government would join with six other provinces and the

territories in refusing to prosecute our citizens under this billion dollar Liberal boondoggle law that criminalizes law-abiding Canadians.

The Attorney General, who is increasingly being recognized as a poseur, fancying himself as Ontario's answer to Jack Nicholson in his "You can't handle the

truth" charade last week, provided an answer that was disingenuous at best. He said, "We will continue to prosecute offences to the full extent of the law in the same way the previous government

used that law to do so." That response was far from accurate, given that not one charge was prosecuted under this odious law by the former government.

I ask the Attorney General to clear the air on this important issue and state whether the Liberal government will prosecute Ontarians under the wasteful and

offensive long gun registry law. Stop the affected behaviour, take off the pancake makeup and give Ontarians a straight answer.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

HEALTH INSURANCE

AMENDMENT ACT

(INSULIN PUMPS FOR DIABETICS), 2004 /

LOI DE 2004 MODIFIANT

LA

LOI SUR L'ASSURANCE-SANTÉ

(POMPES À INSULINE POUR DIABÉTIQUES)

Mr Gravelle moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 55,

An Act to amend the Health Insurance Act / Projet de loi 55, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur l'assurance-santé.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

Mr Michael Gravelle (Thunder Bay-Superior North): My bill would amend the Health Insurance Act by making the provision of insulin pumps an

insured service under the act. In my riding of Thunder Bay-Superior North alone, approximately 700 people would benefit from such an amendment to the act.

As you know, Speaker, an insulin pump not only prevents complications for young people but in many cases reverses them by putting a regular amount of insulin

into the body that closely matches what the body normally does. Unfortunately, the cost of the pump prevents most Ontarians from having the use of it.

Diabetes is a leading cause of blindness, kidney failure and heart disease in Ontario. Type 1, or juvenile, diabetes is a life-altering condition. While people

with diabetes make up only 6% of Ontario's population, they account for 32% of heart attacks, 43% of heart failure cases, 30% of strokes, 51% of new dialysis patients and 70% of amputations.

I look forward to debating this bill on April 22.

The Speaker: Introduction of bills? Motions? Statements by the ministry?

Mr Ted Arnott (Waterloo-Wellington): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I seek unanimous consent of the House to allow the Minister of Training,

Colleges and Universities to give an announcement to this House on the phony tuition announcement she made outside the House this morning.

The Speaker: The member is seeking unanimous consent.

I heard a no.

Mr Arnott: Mr Speaker, I sat in this House for eight years while the member for Windsor-St Clair would repeatedly and systematically complain

about our government occasionally making announcements outside the House. How can he have the unmitigated gall --

The Speaker: If you'd got unanimous consent, you could proceed. There's no unanimous consent.

Mr Robert W. Runciman (Leeds-Grenville): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Before you call question period, I draw your attention to the fact

that we had a memo issued by the Office of the Premier indicating that the Premier would attend question period today. We'd like to have clarification; we're advised now that he will not be, on the

day it has been announced that Ontario lost 25,000 jobs in the last month.

The Speaker: I was not intending to call question period yet, but if there was a letter saying the Premier would be here -- I don't know if

the House leader might want to make a quick comment.

Hon Dwight Duncan (Minister of Energy, Government House Leader): The opposition was advised, as is the course, that the Premier is unable to

attend today.

DEFERRED VOTES

THRONE SPEECH DEBATE

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): We have a deferred vote on the motion by Ms Mossop for an address in reply to the speech from the throne.

Call in the members. This will be a five-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 1348 to 1353.

The Speaker: All those in favour, please rise one at a time to be recognized by the Clerk.

Ayes

Arthurs, Wayne

Bartolucci, Rick

Bentley, Christopher

Berardinetti, Lorenzo

Bountrogianni, Marie

Broten, Laurel C.

Brown, Michael A.

Brownell, Jim

Bryant, Michael

Cansfield, Donna H.

Caplan, David

Chambers, Mary Anne V.

Cordiano, Joseph

Craitor, Kim

Crozier, Bruce

Dhillon, Vic

Di Cocco, Caroline

Dombrowsky, Leona

Duguid, Brad

Duncan, Dwight

Flynn, Kevin Daniel

Fonseca, Peter

Gerretsen, John

Gravelle, Michael

Hoy, Pat

Jeffrey, Linda

Kular, Kuldip

Lalonde, Jean-Marc

Leal, Jeff

Levac, Dave

Marsales, Judy

Matthews, Deborah

McMeekin, Ted

McNeely, Phil

Meilleur, Madeleine

Mossop, Jennifer F.

Orazietti, David

Patten, Richard

Peterson, Tim

Phillips, Gerry

Qaadri, Shafiq

Racco, Mario G.

Ramsay, David

Ruprecht, Tony

Takhar, Harinder S.

Van Bommel, Maria

Watson, Jim

Wilkinson, John

Wong, Tony C.

Wynne, Kathleen O.

The Speaker: All those opposed, please rise.

Nays

Arnott, Ted

Baird, John R.

Barrett, Toby

Bisson, Gilles

Churley, Marilyn

Dunlop, Garfield

Eves, Ernie

Hampton, Howard

Hardeman, Ernie

Jackson, Cameron

Klees, Frank

Kormos, Peter

Marchese, Rosario

Murdoch, Bill

O'Toole, John

Ouellette, Jerry J.

Prue, Michael

Runciman, Robert W.

Sterling, Norman W.

Tascona, Joseph N.

Wilson, Jim

Witmer, Elizabeth

Clerk of the House (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 50; the nays are 22.

The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.

It is therefore resolved that a humble address be presented to His Honour the Lieutenant Governor as follows:

"To the Honourable James K. Bartleman:

"We, Her Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Legislative Assembly of the province of Ontario, now assembled, beg leave to thank Your Honour for the

gracious speech Your Honour has addressed to us."

MEMBER'S BIRTHDAY

Mr Jim Wilson (Simcoe-Grey): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I just want to bring to the attention of the House that it's the 41st birthday

of our colleague from Waterloo-Wellington, Ted Arnott.

THERESA BOYLE

Hon Gerry Phillips (Chair of the Management Board of Cabinet): I'm not 41.

On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I understand it's the final day here for one of our respected members of the press gallery -- she's going on another

assignment -- Theresa Boyle, from the Toronto Star. I know we all wish her the best of luck.

MEMBER'S BIRTHDAY

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Since we're acknowledging people, today is also the birthday of the

member for Nickel Belt. I'm not allowed to disclose which birthday it is.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): It's quite an Easter spirit.

ORAL QUESTIONS

ONTARIO ECONOMY

Mr John R. Baird (Nepean-Carleton): My question is for the Acting Premier. Acting Premier, while your Minister of Finance has been busy

defending himself from an ethical scandal, while your Premier has been running around the country and the province talking about the dire Ontario financial situation, 25,000 people have lost their

jobs. At that time, in March, the only person who should have lost his job was the Minister of Finance for his lack of judgment on that scandal.

Could the Acting Premier stand in his place and now admit that their $4-billion tax increase is sending a bad message to the investment community and he should

change course before it costs Ontario even more jobs?

Hon Dwight Duncan (Minister of Energy, Government House Leader): I'll refer that question to the Minister of Economic Development.

Hon Joseph Cordiano (Minister of Economic Development and Trade): Let me tell the member opposite that, in fact, since this government took

office, we have seen an increase in the number of net new jobs created to 51,300. Let me also add, for your information, that GDP grew by 1.2% in the fourth quarter of 2003, for annualized growth

of 4.8% forecasted for this year. So the Ontario economy is chugging along and creating new jobs. One month does not a trend make.

Mr Baird: This is the first verdict on the biggest tax increase in Ontario history. Bob Rae taught us that when you raise taxes it kills jobs,

and Mike Harris and Ernie Eves taught us that when you cut taxes it creates jobs.

Let's look at the record: The biggest tax increase in Ontario history; they've raised taxes on small businesses, working families and seniors; they've raised

hydro rates; they've raised the minimum wage; they've not implemented their promise to protect commercial auto insurance; and they've done nothing but bad-mouth our economy.

Would the minister stand in his place and admit that this tax increase is disastrous for the Ontario economy and it's time to change course before there is any

more damage and before any more people lose their jobs?

Hon Mr Cordiano: The only bad mouth for this economy is the mouth this member opens every time he says something.

Interjection.

Hon Mr Cordiano: It is.

If you look at the record of job creation, in March 2004, SAS Canada opened a new 110,000-square-foot facility; Research In Motion added 220 new positions;

Freightliner added an additional 300 jobs; DataWave, 200 new jobs; CAMI recalled 100 additional employees; TelusSpectrum, 250 employees for North Bay.

Job creation is happening in the province, and the economy is going in the right direction. Things are happening. In fact, I would remind the member that when

you look at our tax rates, we still have, as a result of whatever was done with the minister's announcement back in the fall, a lower tax rate than the US Great Lakes states average: 36.12%

compared to 40% in the United States.

Mr Baird: The cumulative tax burden on Ontario businesses is higher than our trading partners and it's gotten wors