VOL. l PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 8, 1979 NO. lB '

August 8, 1979 The House met at 3:00 p.m. Hr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Tape No. 620 SD - l Order, please! On behalf of all hen. members, I would like to welcome to the galleries today seven members of the New Brunswick Legislature who represent the New Brunswick Select Ccmmittee of the Legislature on Renewable Resources, and as Chairman Reverend David Bishop. And we trust that their visitation to our Province will be beth enjoyable and informative. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. L. BARRY: Hear, hear. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS The hen. ltinister of Mines and Energy. Hr.

Speaker, I have the honour today to announce the commencement of the largest construction project in this Province since the construction of Labrador Linerbcard, namely, the Upper Salmen hydro electric development which will have a total capital cost of $155 million and at its peak will employ over 400 men. SOME HON. 11EMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. L. BARRY: And because, Mr.

Speaker, this government believes in concern for people as well as for the development of resources, I had the privilege this morning of meeting with people in ti1e Bay d'Espcir area and telling them first-hand that this project would commence and that the access read for the Upper Salmon development project would go in througn the St. Alban's area. SOME HOt~. ;'!EMBERS: i1R. L. BARRY: Hear, hear. The people of Buchans, however, I want to make clear,will be given preferential treatment for employment on this project together with the people of the Bay d 'Espoir area these two areas of our Province.

The Bay d'Espoir area has suffered long-term unemployment proolems really since the Bay d'Espoir development ceased operations down there. There nas been very little in the way of employment opportunity for the people of Bay d'Espoir 1559 '

August S, 1979 Tape No. 620 so - 2 ~- L. B~: and we are also very much aware and very much sensitive to the needS of the. l3uchans area whi.ch is now facing the phasing down of the mining operations, and we know there are already large Illllilbers of 111en that have been laid off ~ possibly others to come if the life of that mine is not exteJlded.

So we, as a gove.rmaent, have decided that thel:"e will be pl:"eference given to ·both o.f these areas in eQlployment on the Upper Salmon power prf?ject and provisions will be made for special eQlployment offices of Newfoun~nd, and La.bl;ador Hydro to b.e located directly in each of these area, one in Buc:hanlo, one i .n the Bay d'Espoir area. SOME liON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. 1560

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 621 OW - l MR. BARRY: These offices will operate in conjunction with Canada Manpower but will be a special, exceptional arrangement made to ensure that the people of these two areas get an opportunity to benefit from the construction activity. we are also looking at ways in which the workers from Buchans who can get employment on the site, arrangements for the regular commuting of these workers back and forth to Buchans over the term of the project. So we will be very much aware of the need to meet the employment problems in the Buchans area as well as that of Bay d'Espoir.

Now generally, just briefly, Mr.

Speaker - and this statement is being distributed to all hon. members and I will not go through it in detail because it is quite lengthy - but if I could just mention a couple of factors: First of all that in approving the release, giving the approval for construction of this project, this government has been very much aware of the fact that there are environmental considerations. we have since 1975, and I had the opportunity as previous Minister of Mines and Energy to commission environmental studies, we have been aware of the fact that there could be possible disruption to the wildlife in the Upper Salmon area, and for that reason we have taken certain exceptional measures.

The first phase of the project will be the construction of the access road; that will start immediately for completion in this coming year. But even though the access road is underway, as of now there,will be provision made for the modification of this road in the event that the continuing environmental studies which will be going on through this year, and indeed through the life of the project, indicate that measures are needed in order to permit the migration of caribou herds and so forth.

There has been a decision that we will have an environmental monitor, not employed by the Hydro Corporation but employed by the Department of Consumer Affairs and Environment, and this person will monitor the project from an environmental point of view ~~d will ensure that the project takes 1561

August a, 1979 Tape No. 621 ow: - 2 !om. L. BAR.~Y: place under certain control conditions so as to minimize the impact upon wildlife or on the envirolllllent generally. There are many things that we are already aware need to be done in order eo protect the caribou, for example, and the instructions have already gone out that this be done 1 things such as maintaining the natural vegetation as much as possible, keeping the road as narrow as possible, keepin g 1562 ' •·

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 622 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: ditches as shallow as possible so as not to provide impediments to the migration of the caribou herd, and many other details,all of which are set out in this statement which I will leave hon. members to go through themselves. By 1983, Mr. Speaker, we will need the energy of the Upper Salmon development in order to meet the needs of this Province. Prior to the Labrador power in-feed being completed for the Island,we have to meet our needs in 1983, 1984, 1985.

And the Upper Salmon at 40 mils is not cheap power,but at 40 mils it is the cheapest of the alternatives, the most efficient of the alternatives for meeting the needs of the Province. I am sure all members will agree, Mr. Speaker, that this is a very significant decision for this government to have taken, a decision that will help ensure the continued prosperity and growth of this Province. Thank you, very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hen. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, it is a very happy day for Bay d'Espoir.

I welcome the announcement on behalf of the people of Bay d'Espoir. It is an announcement that is somewhat overdue, an announcement that was somewhat the subject of some political manoecvering but I suppose that is to be expected. I noted the minister's new-found concern for people and I welcome it. I welcome it. It was totally absent in his commitments to the people of Buchans who were - AN HON. MEMBER: Now do not be sarcastic. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

SIMMONS: - led down the garden path on the issue of the Upper Salmon, it was totally absent in the government's manoeuverings on this matter during the election. But thank God, Mr. Speaker, even the minister has seen the light and now has some concern for people. MR. WHITE: Hear, hear! 1563 '

August: 8, 1979 Tape No. 622 NM - 2 HR. SIMMONS: Hr . Speaker, the minister i s getting the t:WO issues confused. Number one, I welcome wi·tho ut equiv ocation che very happy announcement today for Bay d 1 Espoir . ! cannot, Mr . Speaker , allow that to be construed that I condone the minister 1 s cruel dealings with people in the ~1iJ..lertown area and the Bay d' Espoir area over the past: several months. MR. BARRY: MR . NEARY: go there. MR. SPEAKER (Sintms): MR. SIMMONS: You want both roads going in? The Premier said that both roads would Order, please! Mr. Speaker, the .decision is a happy one.

The events that led up to the announcement of' tb.e decision are despicable in the ex:t:rBI!le. MR. li'LIGHI': SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SIMMONS: MR. NEARY: _ NR. SL"'MONS: SOME EION. ~!EMBERS: t-!R. SPEAl<ER: ~!R. SL'1MONS: not? M.l1.. SPEA-KER: M.R. SIMMONS: Scandalous! Scandalous and dis~aceful! He.ar, h¢ar! Pespicable in the extrBI!le. Cruel. Czuel. If they want to show concern for people - Oh, oh! Order, please! Did you get your happy pills today or The hon . member for aurgeo- ·aay d 1 Espoir. I ·..relcome also, Mr. Speaker - 1564

August 8, 1979 Tape 623 PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: Mr. Speaker, is there any way - MR. NEARY: What is wrong with the happy undertaker today, Sir? "'it for tat. MR. SIMMONS: Is there any way to put him on there for a few minutes, Mr. Speaker? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I welcome in particular the minister's announcement about preferential treatment in hiring practices for the people of Bay d'Espoir and the people of the Millertown, Buchans area. And again, Mr.

Speaker, I am sure I will be allowed to add a word of caution, because the last time we heard such a commitment from a Minister of Mines and Energy, the minister concerned is now the Premier, and he made a commitment to the people of Buchans and Bay d'Espoir in regards to the Hinds Lake project. PREMIER PECKFORD: on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) On a point of order, the han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: On a point of order. MR. NEARY: lie is ina fousty mood today, PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.. Speaker, the han. member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir (Mr.

Simmons) has just made an allegation that at some~ time when I was Minister of Mines and Energy I made a commitment for pre£erential treatment for employment practices to be practiced at the Hinds Lake projec t , "hich is: completely erroneous.

At no time while I was Minister of Mines and Energy did I make such a commitment and therefore I would ask the han. member for Burgee-Bay d 1Espoir if he would withdraw that allegation because at no time,either verbally or in print or over any media or in any forum 1 did I indicate preferential treatment as it related to hiring practices at the Hinds Lake project for any party. MR. SIMMONS: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the han. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. 1565

August 8, 1979 Tape 623 PK - 2 MR. SIMMONS: The printed record to which the Premier refers, of course, will show me correct on this one. Had he waited until I completed the sentence he might have got the thing more in context. What he said, and what I was about to report to the House 1 'Was that in regard to the Hinds Lake project arrangements had been made for two Manpower offices to be set up so that people in the Corner Brook-Deer Lake area would get preferential treatment but to the same degree only that the people being served by the Grand Falls office would get treatment.

He gave the information publicly that the two offices would treat applicants the same and to that degree the people from Corner Brook and the people from Bay d'Espoir, Buchans, and Grand Falls would get preferential treatment over and above people from other parts of the Province, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS] : To the point of order 1 I would rule that there appears to be a difference of opinion on this particular matter and not a point of order. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I would also remind the hon. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr.

Simmons) ~~t the time allotted for speaking after ministerial statements should be related to simply a few comments and clarification. The hon. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you , Mr. Speaker. I shall hope to conclude quickly. I was of the impression that it was also related somewhat to the length of the ministerial statement made by the minister, but I am open to Mr. Speaker's guidance on that matter. Mr. Speaker, I do welcome in particular the preferential treatment which has been announced. We shall monitor it 1566

Auqust a ,1979 Tape No. 624 AH-1 MR. SL~S: closely to see if it follows through in fact. It has not in the case of Hinds Lake. I hope the minister can be taken at his word on this particular issue.

He did not especially address himself to preferential treatment as it relates to unions and I wonder if the minister by inference has indicated to the House that he has already made some arrangements with unions whereby he can implement his preferential treatment commitment notwithstanding certain sanewhat contrary provision~ in various union membership agreements and so on - or union agreements with the companies concerned 1 I ought to say, the contracting companies once they are known. l!r. Speaker 1 the minister also neglected to address himself to any long-term benefits.

He talked about the construction job opportunities which are two to three years duration, but he did not at all address himself to any long-term benefits of this project except in the provincial sense in terms of hydro generation. But I am talking in terms of the government's earlier commitment to Bay d'Espoir in terms of long- term job creation opportunities and I would hope at some point the minister would indicate what permanent job opportunities are available once the Upper Salmon Development has been completed and is onstream. Finally, Mr.

Speaker, I cannot take the same encouragement that the minister apparently takes from the good news, as he calls it, of forty mil power. He may have to do some more talking before the people understand his enthusiasm over that particular point. In conclusion, Mr.Speaker, we on this side w~lccme, one, the announcement that the road will go through Bay d!Espoir; two, that the project will be underway; three, that four hundred people at peak will be involved in the project.

We welcome the minister's newly stated concern for people,which by the way,did not extend to any concern for the people's representative who would have loved this morning to have been with the minister 1567 '

T August a, 1979 Tape No. 624 lUI-2 MR. SrMMONS: when he 111ade that important anno=cement fo:r: Bay a•Espoi:r:, He saw fit to tell my political opponent last niqht 1but he did net see fit to tell me and perhaps to have me alonq fo.:r: the lileeting:. 'l'hat is his concem for people who voiced their decisions at the polls and do not happ8J1 to aqr~e with the !llinister's view of thinqs. som: HOl'l. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) O:tder, ~lease! ORAL QtJESTl:ONS MR. SPEAXER: The hen. lllelllber for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I have a few questions for the Minister of Finance (D!:.Colllns), Sir, in connection with the ntedia tax. There see!IIS to be a stem. of protest not only in Newfoundland but right across ~da over this media taX being very unfair. Yesterday the minister was presented with a brief by the St. John's Board of Trade. 1 who feel that this tax is 1568

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 625 DW - 1 MR. S. NEARY: unprecedented in North America,with the exception of Quebec. There is no tax on broadcast advertising in any other Province of canada and it is rendered to be unconstitutional in the United States. Would the minister care to comment on these statements made by the Board of Trade? Are these statements correct 1 that this media tax is unprecedented in Canada except in the Province of Quebec and is unconstitutional in the United States? Is that a fact? MR. SPEAKER: (SIMMS) DR. J. COLLINS: The hen. Minister of Finance. Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member is quite correct • The Board of Trade have put in a brief, the brief is being studied and an appropriate response will be made in the near future. MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, the Board of Trade also say that the tax is very complex and will be very difficult to apply and costly to administer. Would the minister care to comment on that statement? Is that true or false? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I think it woulc not help if I commented piecemeal.I think that the brief was of such a nature that it deserves a comprehensive response and this is what we intend to do. MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. S • NEARY : A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. Mr.

Speaker, the Board of Trade also indicated in their brief-and the hon. gentleman obviously is refusing toe comment on the Board of Trade's brief,but surely he must have something to say about it publicly - that some of the advertisers and advertising agencies and so forth have indicated that they will refuse to pay this tax and as a matter of fact some have already changed from paying cash to coupons. Is the minister aware of this, that some of these agencies and advertising companies and so forth, advertisers,·rill 1569 '

Augus t S, 1979 Tape No. 625 DW - 2 MR. S. NEARY: refuse to pay the tax? Does the Minister have any knowledge of that? If so, what • will the minister do if some company on the mainland who is advertising in a national magazine for a business in ~ewfoundland,how does the minister rropose to collect the tax? MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The han. Minister of Finance. OR. J. COLLINS : Mr.

Speaker, a bill will be brought in related to this matter and if it is passed in this House we anticipate that the citizens of this Province,or those )Jusiness people and conc:ezns doing business in the Province, will abide by the laws of the Province. MR. S • NEARY: A final SUPPlementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementacy, the han. ll!e!l!ber for LaPoile. MR. S.

NEARY: In the light of all the arguments, ~ir, that ha;te been submitted by various groups against the i%llposition of this 4 per cent tax on advertising 1 the Board of Trade yesterday urged the minister to re-examine the proposal or to withdraw the tax. Now in the event that the government refuses to withdraw the tax 1the Board of Trade made a suggestion that the implementation be deferred at least tintil such time as an independent body acceptable to both the government and the Board has had opportunity to thorougl1.ly study the ramifications and implications of such a tax.

Is the minister going to accept 15?0 '

Auqust 8, 1979 Tape 626 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: this recommendation of the Board of Trade? I would go a step further, Sir, and ask the minister if he would consider deferring the tax until such time as an independent group is set up comprised of representatives of govenunent, the Board of Trade and consumer associations to study the ramifications and implications of this tax. Would the minister agree to that recommendation made by the Board of Trade yesterday in their brief? MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) DR. J • COLLINS : The han. the Minister of Finance.

It is our intention that prior to bringing in the bill for consideration in this House that all submissions will be given due consideration. MR. SPEAKER: I indicated a final supplementary there .• The hon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir and then the member for Port au Port. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question or two for the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. w. Carter). It relates to the Fisheries Loan Board.

Notwithstanding the good news in the Budget about amounts available to the board- it is my understanding that the board has not met since June 11th, nearly two months ago now - and that, notwithstanding the fact that there is quite a backlog of applications awaiting the board's consideration - and I should say further to the minister by way of preliminary that it is also my understanding that there is no decision as to when the board will meet again; I could not determine the day, the nearest I could get on asking several questions of a representative of the board was, I finally said, 'Well, will it be weeks or months,' and I was assured that it probably would not be months before the board met, but it seemed to me that the board has no inmd.nent plan to meet.

I wonder would the minister indicate whether there is any particular reason why the board has not met for a couple of months and might not meet in the near future? MR. SPEAKER: MR. W. CARTER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. No, Mr. Speaker, my understanding is that the board met, I believe, on Monday or Tuesday of this week. 1571

August B, 1979 Tape 626 EC - 2 MR. SIMMJNS: Not to consider applications. MR. W. CARTER: There was a board meeting, I believe it was Tuesday or Wednesday. !'lo particular reason, Mr. Speaker, why the board is not meeting. Certainly, I will find out and maybe report back to the House tomorrow as to when they last met and when the next meeting is planned for. MR. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementaey. A supplementary, the hon. the member Mr.

Speaker, the minister, from the infoxmation that I have, is quite correct that the board did meet this week but not for the purpose - and this point was made by the representative of the board to me by 'phone today - that the board has not met to consider applications since June 11th. I asked the person to verify the date and it was verified while I waited on the 'phone, and June 11th was the last date on which applications were cons~dered. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have asked, Is there any particular reason? And perhaps I could be a little more specific.

To the minister's knowledge, has the board run out of funds for this year? Have all the funds been allocated for this fiscal year? Does the minister know that that might be the reason the board has not been meeting? MR. SPEAKER: MR. W. CARTER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. The funds available to the board this year have increased from ~5.5 million last year to, I think it is $8 million this year . MR. NEARY: MR. W. CARTER: You cannot get out of this one, 'l~alte· r'. It might be a case of the board, Mr. Speaker, slowing up the process. We know that last year there was quite a run on the Loan Board, 1572

August B, 1979 Tape No. 627 SD - 1 MR. W. CARI'ER: a lot of applicants, where a lot of applications were made for mo~ey to buy into 1 to build boats to improve boats, new technology and so on but a large part of the money, of course, that is available for the Board is money that is paid back by people whc had loans from the Board over the years and the same thing will happen this year.

We have made available SB millie~ as apposed to $5.5 million last year,and I expect there will be some sizable amounts coming in from these areas, fishermen who had gat~en loans from the Board especially now with the increased interest. ~e increased the interest rate from J l/2 to 6 per cent. :m. R. SL'1MONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) A supplementary, the hon. member for Burgeo -Bay d'Espair. MR. R. S!MK>NS: i1r.

Speaker, the question that I would like to have the answer to - I am grateful for tlle information, the regurgitation of the Budget Speech about the great new amounts of money-but the specific question that I wanted the answer to was, has the Board run aut of money, has it run aut of the $8 million? The minister indicates in the negative. Could I ask the minister a· further supplementary?

Is the reason for the Board nat meeting since June 11th that it has received an instruction, an instruction from the minister, is the reason that they have received an instruction from the minister not to hold any further meetings for the time being? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. i<IR. W. CARTER: No, Mr. Speaker, no such instructions were given by me and I will check into the operation of the Board in terms of when the last meeting was held, when the next meeting is planned.

I think at the Resource Policy Committee meeting yesterday, the question was asked by one han. member apposite as to how much of the $8 million was being spent to date. I believe tha reply given by the cnairman was, I think, $7 million 1573

Au.gust 8, 1979 Tape No. 627 SD - 2 MR. W. CARTER: was it DCt? AN liON. MEMBER: AroWld $7 million.. MR. W. CARtER: Y EIS, wnich would indicate that the Board is certainly DCt ~ke. l.t ~~light be a c.OISe of slowing up the process becau.se we do know that there are a. lot of applica.tions cCIIling in.. I suppose if we were to conceda to a.ll the requests !llade, we wou.ld need prob.ably four times the -unt we were g-iven this year. i~. R. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Supplementa.ry, Mr. Spea.ker.

Supplementa.ry, the hon. lll.elllller for Burgee Ba.l( d'Espoir 1 then the member for Trinity - Ba.y de Verde 1 followeQ .by the memb.er for Windsor - BU.chans. MR. R. SIMMONS: Mr. Spea.ker, it is not, a.s ~ minister understands ,I a.m sure, a. question of whether <!. Boa.rd meets or not. A number of dozens, probably hunckeds of fishe:men or would~be fishermen, fisnermen in most ca.ses 1 ha.ve had their pla.ns for a. woole fishing- $ea.son quite disrupted beca.use o.f the fa.ilu.re to get a decision f:t:om the Fi.sherie.s Loa.n Beare; on this particula.r ma.tter.

Now, I can Wldersta.nd the wisdom of slowing- up the process lilut at the same time I do not think people who ha.ve gone through 1574

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 628 NM - 1 MR. SIMMONS: the pain and planning of putting an application in should have to wait unduly several months for a decision. If that decision can be forthcoming now it can help them- MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. On a point of order, the hon. the The Question Period is for the purpose of asking questions, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman is getting into statements, debate and what have you. MR.

SPEAKER: To the point of order, I would draw that to the attention of the hon- member and ask that he ask his question. MR. SIMMONS: on the point of order, Mr._Speaker. He is a little vexed today, the President of the Council, that is fine, but I was just getting into what I thought was a very brief

preamble before putting my supplementary and I submit I was therefore in order. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, as I said I would ask the han. member to ask his question now and forgo comments. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary to the Minister of Fisheries relates to another aspect of the Loan Board operations. It is my understanding that a number of fishermen are having their applications delayed in another way and that is by being obliged to wait for inspection staff from the Fisheries Loan Board to arrive at a given location to inspect the boat that is being purchased by a loan applicant.

I wonder if the minister can indicate why the long delays here? Has it anythinq to do with a shortaqe of staff, perhaps,or is it part of the overall s~rategy which the minister has just indicated to the House of slowing down the process of application. approvals? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Yes, we have had a staff problem,of course, and we are advertising now for I think four or five additional inspectors. 1.575

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 628 I<IM - 2 MR. W. CARTER: The work load of that board bas increased , Mr. Speaker. ~ L971-72, when this government asswned office,there were 285 loans made to fisherm e.n. In 1978-79 there were 1118 loans, an increa se of 292 per cent, with an overall increa se, Mr. Speaker, from 1971 t .o 1979 of 1229 per cent. SOME 8.0N . o!EI-IBERS : Hear , bear! MR. ~·. CARTER: The cash flow, Mr. Speaker, of the ,. <'isheries Loan Board has increased from ~1,002,000 in 1971 - ~!R . JAMIESON: On a point of o·rder, Mr. Speaker. H.R. SPEAKER (Simms) : On a point of order, the bon .

Leader of the O_pposi tion. .I.R. JAMrESON: !-lr. Speaker, in view of the intervention earlier oy the Bouse Leader with regard to the irre~evancy of the quest i on, surely it is appropriate also to say that in this particular case the ·non. minister is not in £act answering the question that was put to him in the precise form. HR. MORGAN: He does not want the information. Re does not want the information. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, if r might I would bring to the attention of all hon . members, Standing Order 31 (

c) which clearly sUites tha~ "in puttinq an oral question" no arqument or opinion is to be offered nor any facts stated except insofar a s may be necessary to explain t !:te same ;and in answering any such question 1 the Minister is not to deba ·te the matter to which i t .ref.ers ." r call on the hon. minister t o furnish the reply to ~~e quest i on. 1.576

August 8, 1979 Tape 629 PK- 1 MR. W. CARTER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: That is what I attempted to do, Mr. Speaker. Oh, oh! MR. W. CARTER: There has been a very substantial increase in the workload of that Board during the past few years. In fact, I believe last year, l978-1979 1 there was a very substantial increase. For that reason we have had to take a look at getting additional staff for the Board, and that is now in the process; Mr. speaker, of being done. I think there are ads about to appear in the daily newspapers soliciting applications from people to occupy positions of inspectors on that Board.

And for that reason, Mr. Speaker, I suspect that maybe the Board is behind in its inspections, and that is strictly from an over worked load rather than certainly not on the instructions of the minister. But I will look into it, Mr. Speaker, today and tomorrow and report back to the House later as to what the status of these applications what it is and just how many are in the backlog. MR. SPEAKER (.SIMMS): MR. F. ROWE: The hon.member for Trinity-Bay de Verde.

Mr. speaker, in view of the fact that the minister took great credit in having an increase from $5.5 million to $8 million in the Fisheries Loan Board for this year, and we found out during the consideration of the estimates- it is quite an astounding fact-and that is that $7 million out of the $8 million of these had already been committed or spent. During the consideration of the estimates I was wondering if the minister could supply, he probably cannot do it today, could supply the number of applications presently on file, the total value of these applications in dollars, or millions of dollars?

And since the $8 million is an estimate, whether the minister is giving any consideration to increasing the allotment to the Fisheries Loan Board for this year, since, in fact, at this point in the game, during the consideration of the estimates, $7 million out of the $8 million has already been spent. Is the minister thinking at all of increasing the vote to that particular division of his department? 1577

.August 8, 1979 Tape 629 M:R. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The hon . Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CAR'l'ER: Mr. Speaker, the Loan Soard last year, on t~~ basis o£ ;overnment's money of $5.5 million put !nto the Loan aoard ,.made loan .s, I tillnk, tob.lling around $17 million, in excess of $17 mil2ion. A large part of that, of course, resulted PK - 2 from revenue that was generated by 111eans of pay back on the loans .

The $8 million amount this year will- well, there is about $1 milJ.ion .le£t, I think, at the present time, but certainly if it is found necessary to increase that amount ar.d if 1:he needs of the fishermen are such ~hat additional money is necessary,weJ.l then I am sure that my Cabinet colleagues will see fit to increase the amount. But certa .inly the Loan Board is operating well, it is a busy operation, business has increased considerably 1 the work.J.oad is outstanding and ! think the fishermen are oretty haocy, Mr. ~aker, with their Loan Board. MR. F . ROWE: A supplementary, Mr . Speaker. M:R.

SPEA.t<ER: A finaJ. supplementary, the hon. member for Trini1:y- Bay De Verde . MR. F. ROWE: ! am wondering about the first tw-o parts of the 1578

Auqust 8,1979 Tape No. 630 AH-1 MR.F.ROWE: question, Mr. Speaker, if the minister would undertake to table the number of applications presently on file and the total value of the applications .on file at the present time? MR. W .CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: (Si.Jmns) Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: I will get them tonight, The hon. member for Windsor- Mr. Speaker, I have several questions for the Minister of Mines and Enerqy (Mr.Barry) with reqard to his Ministerial Statement today.

Now that the decision has been made to brinq the road in from Bay d'Espoir 1 I will call to the minister's attention that when the access through MillertOWR was being considered,and I could go further and say dangled in front of the people in the Buchans area, one of the main considerations was that building the access to the Upper Salmon may expedite the activity in the mining deposits know in the Great Burnt area and that aydro and ~~e minister and the Premier, certainly the Premier, indicated that building the road, the access road to the power site would expedite or would have any effect on bringing about the production of the ore bodies that that would be a consideration.

What are we to read in the fact that the road has come in from Burgee? Is the priority gone off the development of those ore bodies? What effect will that have on the mining companie's ability to bring those ore bodies into production and deliver the ore to Buchans as was their intention? MR. SPEAKER: Mines and Enerqy. MR. BARRY: The hon. Minister of Mr. Speaker, as I indicated to the member last evening in the discussio~ of my estimates 1 the most promisinq ore body is the Tulk' s deposit. Now this is the one in which the company is now carrying on a feasibility study.

In the course of deciding the route of the access road 1 we expressly considered 1579 '

August 8,1979 Tape No. 630 AH-2 MR. BARRY: the potential of the Great Burnt Lake deposit. We contacted the company to see just how far down the road they saw this project, how commercially viable they considered it at __ 1;his time 1 and the conclusion we reached was that it is too early to say at this stage, and the company is not yet in a position to say at this stage whether that can be developed.

But they are looking at the commercial development of the Tulk's deposit and with this end in view government is going to be prepared to consider applications relating to the establishment of roads leading to that particular deposit. That is,as you know, at the far end of Red Indian Lake from Buchans and the access road in this case voa:l.d not relate, if it had gene through Millertcwn to the Tulk's deposit, which is the one that is now presently being studied as far as feasibility is concerned. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) hen. member for Windscr-Buchans. I'.R.. FLIGHT: A supplementary.

The This supplementary comes from something that was alluded to by the hen. memberfor Bay d'Espoir (Mr.Simmons).

With regard to the government's stated intention new to give preferential treatment to the people of Bay D'Espoir and Buchans,how would the minister reconcile that with the fact, the given fact, that the major construction companies in this Province - they ran into this in Hinds:· Lake - the major construction companies, the people who would bid on that size of a project, have got an agreement with the eonstruction Trade Unions, covering all the trades and the labourers' unions, that their unemployed people, wherever they are in the Province,be hired first?

Hew does the minister rec~ncile that particular fact with his ability to give preferential treatment to the people of Bay a'Espoir and Buchans? MR. SPEAKER: of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: 1580 The hon. Minister Mr. Speaker, it boils down

August 8,1979 Tape No. 630 AH-3 MR. BARRY': to that 1 this was a government elected by the people to qova:r:n. There are qoinq to be conditions set for the development of this Upper Sallfton project. o- of the conditions is qoinq to be ~t the people of Buehans and Bay a'Espoir obtaiJI preferential treatlllent. Contracts that are qoinq to be let will. include a clause that the contractor must qive preferential t,re .at:ment and it wil.l. be up to the eontriil~r to work out with any uilions involved a way of doinq this. Purely and simply this qovernment is here to qovern and is qoinq to qovern. SOME Hal.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAXE~: A supplement~. The han. member for Windso~Buchans. Mr. FliGR'f : Woul.d the minister indicate- he all.uded in his Ministerial Statement to employment offices beinq established in Buchans and in Bay d 'Espoir. Now in vi~ of the ~act that the Canada Manpower Office in Grand Falls was indeed desiqnated as a referral center for the Hinds Lake project and that not one referral was made frcm that off~ce to the Hinds Lake project unle.ss it was channeled through Corner Br90k 1 1581 ' ---·~-

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 631 ow - 1 MR. G. FLIGHT: unless Corner Brook could not fill that job, well, would the minister care to exp2ain to us what kind of a hiring on that he sees operating? Will it be the contractors that will get the contracts maintain the employment office there, or will it be the Provincial Department of Labour and Manpower or will it be canada Manpower? ~.R. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: I made it very clear in my statement, Mr. Speaker, that these will be employment offices run by the Newfound­ land and Labrador Hydro Corporation.

And just one further point; I am sure that all unions in this Province are responsible enough to recognize that the policy which is set by government is one that they can live with as well. MR. G. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: MR. L. STIRLING': They were not on Hinds Lake. The hon. member for Bonavista North. Mr. Speaker, I had a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. N. Windsor) but since he is not here I would like to direct it to the Premier I because it is something I am sure that he is not aware of; the minister might be.

The new Provincial Home• Ownership Assistance Programme: The information Uhat is b~ing put out by Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation is that the applications will not be available until s"'me time between the middle of August and the last of August. I am sure that the Premier is aware that this programme was announced,and all of the people all over Newfoundland but certainly from my district have been waiting since the first of A~gust to make applications. I wonder if the Premier can ste~ in and at least qet a mimeoqraphed form. ~his elaborate thing could be done today.

I wonder if we cannot at least get a mimeo­ qraphed appiication out because one of the provisions requires that in order for them to get the money the unit must he 65 per cent 1582

August 8,1979 Tape No. 631 OW - 2 ~. L. STIRLING: completed and occupied. So we are in a situation where if the _ applications are not available until the middl.e of August , and th!!n you have to have approval, we will have lost the construction season. Will the Premier intercede and see if can at least an interim supply of mimeographed applications? MR. SPEAKER: (SIMMS) The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Will do , Mr. Speaker, and report back to the han. member tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. E. HISCOCK: Could the hon. Minister of Fisheries (Mr. W. carter) advise the hon.

House of the future of the two fish plants at cartwright and Mary's Harbour? These two fish plants were built on the coast of Labrador, the only two that have been built 1 with a ~ considerable amount of money from this Province and now for various reasons are not in operation,in particular Mary's Harbour,due to some problems with the private person getting finances. Could the hon. minister advise the House as to what will be done with the future of these two fish plants? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I will take the question as notice and supply an answer tomorrow. MR.

SPEAKER: MR. WARREN: of Fisheries, The hon. member for Tcrngat Mountains. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker 1 to the Minister On May 31st. a vacanc y occurred in Labrador pertaininq to the regional fisheries representative for the Labrador region. Since that time there has been no fisherv representative in r~brador· I was wondering and the minister did announce that they were advertising for inspectors-I wonder are they also planning to advertise for a regional fisheries representative? !1R. SPEAKER: The hen. ~1 inister - of Fisheries. 1583 '

Ay911st 8, 1979 Tape No. 631 OW - 3 MR. W. CARI.'ER: Mr. Speaker, I will ta~e that as notice and supply an answer tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: (SIMMS) The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. D. JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. the Premier. Would he confirm that the news reports of today are correct in that the environmental recommendations or study. with regard to the Come by Chance oil refinery have been received andjif so1 can he give some indication either of the contents or when the government will be in a position to make some response. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the environmental report has been received and is now under study by people in government and Cabinet will be reviewing the recommendations w±thin the next .. week or so. So it will be sometime after that the position of government concerning it will be made known. But it will take a week1 I would say. MR. D. JAMIESON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEI>KER: A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the OppElsition. _MR. D.

JAMIESON: In view of the fact that there are some speculative stories 1 I am wondering if the hon. the Premier is in a position to say whether or not in general that the environmental study is favourable or is there anything to these reports which were circulating today that the indications are that there is no impediment to proceeding on environmental grounds? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker, · I would not comment on that at this time until we have looked at it first. 1584 '\

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 632 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Would the hon. gentleman indicate,in this environmental study that was done,the sulphur content of the crude oil that was submitted to the people down in Boston for analysis? What was the sulphur content of tne cruae oil? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREHIER PECKFORD : Mr .

Speaker, I cannot answer that in specific terms and I would not be prepared to answer it until a full review of the environmental thing was done and then all the information relative to it would be published at the same time as the government's position. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: 11.R. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the han. member for LaPoile.

Would the han. gentleman indicate if a sample of crude oil was sent to the environmental people down in Massachusetts, or were they just given the description on paper of the crude oil that would be used at Come By Chance in the event that First Arabian took over the oil refinery? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, government's position as it relates to the environmental study, and the detail and the mechanics under which it was conducted,will be made availabe to this House as soon as we have decided upon what our 2osition will be. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary. A final supplementary, the hon. member Would the hon. gentleman indicate to the House when they will be in a position to make a report to the House? Will 1585

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 632 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: there will be an extension of time to the First Arabian Corporation as a fesult of the government dillydallying with the environmental report, or will the decision be made within the deadline that was given to the First Arabian Corporation? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I cannot accept the description of government's position or movement on this whole question of the environmental study. I think it was received in the Province the night before last.

I do not think that one can,therefore,necessarily describe that as government d~llydallying with a report. It is a highly technical report as,hopefully 7 the hon. member understands- MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: very carefully. MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: Will it be tabled in the House? - and,therefore,we have to look at it Will it be tabled? It is a very big matter that has to be considered. I can assure the hon. member that as soon as we have,as a government,reviewed it, most of the Cabinet have not had an MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: When? When? - opportunity to see it - When?

I indicated in answer to a previous question, Mr. Speaker, that I hope that within a week, in the passage of a week or so, government would have had the opportunity to examine fully the report and to take a position relative to the report and the Come By Chance refinery. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for the Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Mines and Energy. Could he advise this hon. House if BRINEX is planning, in the very near future,to do a road mapping of the area between North West River and the Kitts-Michelin deposits? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BJL~Y: Road mapping, was that the question? 1586

August 8, 1979, Tape 632, Page 3 -- apb MR. WARREN: Yes. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the company involved has requested from government government approval to authorize it to commence the construction of an access road to the Kitts - Michelin deposits. There are certain environmental considerations which government must look at here, and there are certain other matters which government must negotiate with the BRINEX company prior to government giving its full approval to the commencement of the Kitts - Michelin mining development.

However, we are aware of the need for an early start on the road and I have instructed officials to consider very carefully the possibility of a conditional approval which would not mean an ultimate approval of the overall mining development - a conditional approval might be possible to permit the company to meet its

schedule for the development of this mine. But I want to stress again that we have not given final approval nor will we give final approval, until the environmental and other concerns which we have are cleared up with the company. MR. JAMIESON: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : the Opposition. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. The hon. the Leader of MR. JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker, on the same topic to the Minister of Mines and Energy. I understand that there have been some corporate changes contemplated in the makeup of this company. Is the hen. minister aware of these and have these difficulties been resolved?

There was to have been, as I understand it, or there was talk of a change of partners involving a change from, I believe, American to German, or perhaps it was vice versa, but in any event, is the company structure now such that they are in a position to proceed provided all of these other matters are dealt with? 1587

August 8, 1979, Tape 632, Page 4 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Sirnrns) : The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, there was a public release to the media by BRINEX Corporation - I just had it here in my pile 1588

August 8, 1979 Tape 633 EC- l MR. BARRY: of correspondence a moment ago, if I could get it out I think it would clarify matters. The announcement was by BRINCO and BRINCQ Limited announced late last week that its wholly owned subsidary, BRINEX has exercised an option on the 40 per cent interest of Urangasellshaft (Canada) Limited - this was the German partner that BRINEX had in that operation - in the joint venture covering portions of BRINEX' s ooncessionaries in Labrador, so that BRINEX bought out the German interests.

Subject to government and regulatory approvals both in Canada and Illinois - the regulatory approval in Canada would be FIRA, the Foreign Investment Review Agency - BR~~EX,has agreed to transfer the 40 per cent interest to Edison Development (Canada) Incorporated, a wholly owned subsidiary of Commonwealth Edison Company of Chicago. An agreement in principle has been reached with Commonwealth Edison whereby it will, through its subsidiary, arrange financing of mine and mill construction at the Kitts-Michelin deposits in Labrador and will purchase up to eighteen million pounds of uranium.

BRINEX will provide construction and operating management. Final contract arrangements are to be settled and will be subject to government and regulatory approvals. The project would be staged out of Goose Bay, where extensive infrastructure requirements already ex:ist. An eighty-five mile all-weather road would be constructed from Goose Bay to the mill site. Direct employment during operation would be approximately 300 persons, most of whom would be housed at Goose Bay. Order, please! MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. BARRY: Employment during construction,including support personnel,would be considerably higher. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: I am sorry, that is the - MR. SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. MR. JAMIESON: A point of order, •tr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hen. the Leader of the Opposition. 1589

August 8, 1979 Tape 633 EC - 2 MR. JAMIESON: With respect to the Chair - and I will not ask the supplementary - in all seriousness, I did not want to have a lengthy press release read to me. I asked a particular question about the change in structure. And I did have a supplementary to ask, but I will bow to it and I will do it tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Well, obviously, to the point of order, the time for Oral Questions has expired and I have to apprise hon. members of that. If it is agreed by leave then that is up to - AN HON. MDmER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. JAMIESON: By leave. By leave.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I will make it very short. I want to ask the han. the minister whether or not,in fact,it is only a FIRA issue when they refer to government regulations,or if it is not something considerably more serious and that is a change in the grandfather rights which the original corporation had and which, I believe, are questionable unless the Government of Canada is prepared, under the new structure, to extend to the company the same kinds of arrangements that existed before but which would not now exist in the normal circumstances? MR. SPEAKER: MR.

BARRY: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. Mr. Speaker, I understand that arrangements have been made to satisfactorily meet that problem. And as you can see, the reason I went into the press release is because it does give a lot of background information which indicates that this project is very likely to happen, provided again, the company meets with our environmental and other qualifications here. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN l.ffi. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Soeaker, I wish to table, as 1 indicated I would yesterday, the list of the roads programme of the Department of Transportation and Communications for t:"le year 1979 - 1980 - AJ.'l HON. i'IEMBER: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: - which is broken down district by district to make it easier for the hon. member. 1590

August a, 1979 Tape 633 EC - 3 PREMIER PECKFORO: Th.ere was so!De thought earlier to just p~duce a list which was alphabetical and then the member:~ o;f the House 'WOU:ld nave to ~o to the trouble of ayag to identify them in the diffe:rent poli.ticai districts aJ:Ound the ProVince and ·I thcu.qht that woul.d not be wise - then SOIIIII!body l!liqb.t accuse us of ayinq to still not give it, so we have done it acc:c:rdinq to each of the fifty-two districts in the Province and, the amount of !IICne.y and the name of the project and all the :rest of it. so I will table that.

I think the:re are copies alreacif available, fifty-two copies fo:r each llleiiJI:)er. I will table that as part of my promise of yesterday, Mr. Speaker. SOt«E BON. MEMaE~: Hear, hear! 159:1

August 8,1979 Tape 634 PK- 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: Secondly, Mr. Speaker, I want to respond to a question that I promised I would respond to yesterday as it related to the Newfoundland Hardwoods. TWelve people are to be laid off on a temporary basis. The reason for that is twofold; one, there is a three month inventory at that plant right now where these twelve men are affected, having trouble getting veneer. and secondly, the company is The shipment will not be in until the third week in September, and as soon as it is in then these twelve men will be rehired again. layoff of twelve.

So it is a temporary And1 thirdly,I promised a couple of days ago to get the information as it related to the former Premier's rent, and I mentioned this to the hen. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) yesterday. Afterwards I went over to indicate that I had called and gotten the information for the hon. member,that the former Premier's rent at Mount Scio house was paid up to March 31, 1979. MR. NEARY: Everything they say about him is not bad. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS : Mr.

Speaker, a short time ago I indicated . to the hen. member for LaPoile that I would get certain information for him. The information related to the final agreement for the sale of the Labrador Linerboard mill, and has the purchase price been deposited to the credit of the Province? MR. NEARY: on a point of order. I cannot hear the hon. gentleman, Sir. would the hen. gentleman speak up and go over that again? I did not hear what the han. gentleman said. MR. SPEAKER: on the point of order. I would not rule there is a point of order, but I would ask the minister if he would respond to the hon. member's request. DR.

COLLINS: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member asked me a few days ago if I would get certain information with regards to t he Labrador Linerboard mill sale; as to whether the agreement for the sale was completed and, also, whether the payments had been effected? 1592

August 8, 1979 Tape 634 PK - 2 Dr. Collins: The final agreement has been effected. In regard to payments a single payment of $6 million was received on December 22, 1978. The 1979-1980 Budget indicated anticipated receipts of $10 million in this current fiscal year and that is payable as non-interest bearing promisory note payable and due on the 31st. of December 1979. A further $27.5 million of non-interest bearing promisory notes are- also due on the same date, and they are convertible at the option of Abitibi,into redeemable preferred shares.

Those shares are to be redeemed in four equal installments on the 31st. of December of each year from 1981 to 1984 inclusive. Mr. Speaker, the hon. member also asked 7 concerning the statement by the auditors in the annual statement to the shareholders,concerning insufficient information. Note one to that statement, Mr. Speaker, states as follows: and I am quoting now from the statement that is available for December 31, 1977. The hen. member also asked for the 1978 statement, and I am in the process of getting that for him. MR. NEARY: All (inaudible) . DR.

COLLINS: that issue, Yes,I am in the process of doing that. But this particular note, I think , clarifies and the note states as follows: "During the year the company discontinued its woods harvesting operations and on August 29, 1977, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador shutdown the operation of the Linerboard mill. A divestiture committee formed by the government to sell the company held its first meeting on December 28 1 1977.

Due to the preliminary stage of the divestiture committee's estimates, and because of the practical problems involved in ascertaining break-up or liquidation values at this time,the financial statements have been prepared on an ongoing concern basis." And, Mr. Speaker, the statement to the shareholders at the annual meeting also includes the following: "As explained in note one" -that was the note I just read out - "the 1593

7 Auqu.st 8, 1979 Tape 634 PK - 3 Or. Collins: company has discontinued operations and, tberefore 1 generally accepted accounting principles recommend that the financial statements be prepared on the basis of break-up or divestiture values. These values are not determinable at this time." In other words, l1r. Speaker, t.'lis was purely an accounting matter,tbat because the mill had not been sold, the auditors could not determine the value of the assets of the company as a liquidation or a break-up situation. OR. COLLrNS: ·And, therefore, this was the reason why there was a statement included there that the report .. -as made in the fashion it was. MR. NEARY: No . That is not so. 1594 ' ..

August a, 1979 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. E. HISCOCK: Tape No. 635 so - 1 PRESENTING PET!TIONS The hon. member for Eagle River. Mr. Speaker, I wish to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Williams Harbour. Mr. Speaker, there are eighteen people who have signed this petition. And the prayer of the petition is that they erect a new school in this community. The other day I mentioned about the idea that these people moved into this residence with the idea of getting pe:rmanent electricity and setting up a pe:rmanent community.

In this school, it is a one-room school, from kindergarten to grade ten, with two teachers in one classroom, one fire exit, an oil stove in the middle of the classroom that the principal of the school had to bring to the attention of the parents. He called a public meeting and during that meeting he hit the stove pipe with an eraser and it collapsed. Mr. Speaker, I would like to draw to the attention of this House that the Premier, yesterday, was wearing a button, The Year of the Child. I would also like to point out the disgrace.

With the development of Labrador - and a bill going to be presented in this House today on the Lower Churchill - and the development that has gone oi:l there in Labrador, and the taxation that has gone to this Province, we have gross inequalities there. There is no library, no resource centre, no recreation. The !::ducation budget for this year was $322,933,900 and here we have a gross neglect of our greatest resource.

As was mentioned last year in the Budget, the greatest resource of this Province is our young people and I would like to t:ry to point out to this House, whether it is debate or not, that this point, in particular, needs to be brought to the attention of this liouse and I hope that speedy work will be done on it. Mr. Speaker, tl1ank you. SOME liON • ;-!EMBERS : Hear, hear! 1595

August 81 1979 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) HR. D. JAMIESON: Tape No. 635 SD - 2 The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether it is debate or not and I hope you will provide a fairly wide amount of latitude because I want to say 1 and I do not believe any member of this House, of whatever party ,could possi.bly disagree with the premise that has been behind this petition. What the hon. member did not say was that in addition to the adults who signed this particular petition 1 there are a number of students themselves.

And it rea.l.ly is quite unforgivable for us in Newfoundland to be talking in the way we have been in this House and to see that there is a school left, only one, there may be others,that is in such terrible conaition in a part of this Province. I would urge that the government and the Minister of Education (Ms. L. Verge) take not just the routine note of this particular petition but that,surely 1 within the resources of the department, it ought to be possible to treat this petition with the kind of special attention that, in my judgement and I am sure the judgement of all hon. members, it deserves.

SOME HON. 11EHBERS : Hear, hear. ~1R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. as. L. VERGE: Mr: Speaker, I would just like to comment briefly on the petition. A decision to constructing of the school was that of the applicable Denominational Education Committee in consultation with the School Board. I will take note Of the comments macie by the hon. lilember. The decision, however, regarding construction of a specific school would be tnat of the Denominational Education Committee using funds allocated by the ciepartment. 1.596

.\ugust 8, 1979 Tape No. &35 SD - 3 ORDERS OF THE DAY !1R. SPEA.'<ER: (Simms) I beJ.ieve it is agreed by both sides that we woul.d d.ebate Bill No. 26 . Agreed? SO,ME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Motion, se=nd reading of a bill "An Act To Facilitate The Development Of The Hydro - Electric Power Potential Of The Lower Churchill River" (Bill No . 26) . ~IR. SPEAla::R: SOME HOO. 11E!ofilERS : HR. L. BARRY: The hon. 11inister of ~lines and E.nergy. Hear, hea.r . Mr. Speaker, this bill is being int-~duced following the signing of an agreement between the Province and the Federal Government.

The.re have a.lxeady been press reJ.eases and ?ublic statements made at the time of the agreement to form the Lower Chu.rcll ill Development Corporation but it is necessary now to ?roce ed with a bill of this Rouse because t.~ere is no auehority , etherwise 1 for 1597 .. ..

Auqust 8,1979 Tape No. 636 AH-1 MR. BARRY: the canying out of the agreement and the agreement contemplates,naturally,ratification by this hon. House. The bill involves,for example,the granting of an op~ion to the corporation concerning water rights in Labrador. There is no provision for such an option in the Crown Lands Act or by any other existing provincial statute and,therefore,it is necessary to have the aqreement,made between the Province and the Federal Government,ratified by statute before the Province can effectively implement the agreement already entered into.

Now,at the conclusion of the First Minister's Meeting in February, agreement in principle between the Federal Government and Newfoundland was reached to establish a Lower Churchill Development Corporation. Since that time there have been many meetings between the federal and provincial officials and a draft agreement,wbich is attached to this bill, arrived at. We have to make clear, Mr. Speaker, that the Federal Government has not,in this agreement,ccmmitted itself to enter into the development of the hydro potential of the Lower Churchill, in those words.

It has)however,committed itself to carrying out a study, a study for which it has provided some $5 million.And more than that , Mr.Speaker, it is not just a study in the significance of this agreement, it is not just that the Pederal Government is going to carry out a study, the significance of it is that the Government of canada agrees that following receipt of the study, the Federal Government will,in good faith,consider the results of the study and decide whether the economic, technical and financial viability of the project has been completed.

And this .on page 22 of the bill, it is actually in the agreement attached to the bill. We have a provision that sets out in

Section 5, Study Stage Work, it says in Subsection 4 there, "Followii;tg the ccmpletion of the study stage work, the parties agree that· . they will meet and review the feasibility of proceeding with the project pursuant to the recommendations resulting from the study stage work and the 1598 '

. ·, August a, 1979 Tape No. 636 AH-2 MR. BARR!': comments by the parties thereon." And they go on to say, "In the event that the parties agree to proceed with the project, either on the basis of the study stage work or the work as aJIIImded, the parties will exercise all reasonable efforts" - we have a collllllit.ment by the Federal Goverzunent to exercise all reasonable efforts to ensure that the Lower Churc::ilill project is constructed and operated in accordance with the agreement. 6 And further" - the~e is just one final

section I will refer to, Mr. Speaker. We will have an opportunity to go through these in detail at cClllllllittee stage - "Canada and Newfoundland aqree to consider in good faith" - this is the

section I referred to - "when the study staqe work is COIIIPleted, whether either or both of them can, having regard to the existing conditions, support the financing by the CO:tporation, which is referred to. in the agreement so as to permit the corporation to obtain the financing needed for the project, it being understood that as a target the parties expect that approximately 90 per cent of the capital costs of the project will be obtained by borrowings of the corporation." 1599 '

August 8, 1979 Tape 637 EC - l MR. BARRY: And that would leave, naturally, 10 per cent equity to come from both the federal and provincial governments." It is more than just an agreement by the federal government to carry out another study on t.\1.e Lower Churchill, it is a commitment to take all reasonable efforts and to,in good faith 7 determine whether the project. is economically and financially vi~le once this study work is completed, and as I have earlier indicated to this House, the study we expect to receive by the end of 1979 or by early 1980. MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: So that is what this bill is all about.

Not a very great commitment, is it? It is a very great commitment and the hon. member must be saying that he believes that the Government of Canada would be prepared to act in l:lad faith, because if the study establishes, if the experts who are now working establish the economic and financial viability of this project, the federal gove~t has committed itself, has given its word that in good faith it will take all reasonable efforts to develop. Mr.

Speaker, that is a very significant commitment by the federal government and that will, in my opinion, see the early development of the Lower Churchill, because I believe that this study work will: indicate that this is a commercially feasible and viable project. MR. NEARY: Another (inaudible) study. MR. BARRY: The hon . member will get his chance in a 100ment so if he would have the courtesy just to sit back like a good fellow I will tell him a few things about the Lower Churchill Development Corporation. MR. NEARY: Tell us about the explosion. MR. BARRY: The people of this Province, Mr.

Speaker, have put back another P. C. Government since the events that the hon. member refers to, and the people of this Province have shown a confidence in this government at the polls, a confidence which we do not intend to fall down upon. MR. NEARY: Let her go . 1600

August 8, 1979 Tape 637 EC - 2 MR. BARRY: We intend to carry out the mandate that we have been given by the people of this Province. One of the main planks in our election platform, which saw us carried to victory~ was that we will enter into this Lower Churchill Development Corporation agreement and we will see that that project is carried out. SOME liON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the principal features of this bill are that we have a corporation formed, incorporated under Newfoundland law.

Two types of shares will be issued, namely, Class 'A' shares, common voting shares 1 and Class 'B' , common non-voting shares. At all times at least 51 per cent of the Class 1 A' shares 1 the voting shares, will be owned by Hydro for and on behalf of the Province <md 49 per cent by the federal government. So at all times the government of this Province will maintain control of that Lower Churchill Development Corporation.

As far as profits are concerned, profits will be shared as follows: ~~e federal government will get 10 per cent initially on the Class 'A' shares until they get a 10 per cent return, then all additional profits will be shared between Class 'A' and Class 'B' shares up to 18 per cent, and over 18 per cent all profits will. go .to t...'le Cl.ass 'B' shares. In other words, if there are any so-call.ed super profits, exceptional profits, as we see occurring on the Upper Churchill. power contract, these super profits will. go to the Province - profits in excess of 18 per cent. MR. B.RETT: ;-m. BARRY: Not to Quebec.

Not to Quebec, not to any other province, not to a private developer, but to this Province. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: And the federal government has shown very great wisdom and foresight in agreeing to these terms, because it recognizes that this is only fair and reasonabl.e, and an 18 per cent return on any man's invest~rent is fair and reasonable. Ali HON . MEMBER: MR. BARRY: That is exactly what I said (inaudible). I must have been reading your mail. 1601. ;

august a, 1979 'rape 637 EC - 3 Mr. Speaker, the federal government has aqreed to purchase 500 Class 'A' Shaxes for $5 million and this is the IIIOlley that is now beinq spent on the study that is beinq carried out. Newfoundland receives 520 Class 'A' ' ,shares, its 51 per cent, merely in return for delivarinq this option, for supplyinq this option aqreeiJ!I!!lt, The option agreement will qi. ve the developmant co;r;poration the sole an4 1602

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 638 PK- 1 MR. BARRY: irrevocable option during the term of the agreement to acquire all the Gull Island company assets and the water rights to the Lower Churchill sites at Gull and at Muskrat. The agreement provides for the Lower Churchill Development Corporation to recognize, now this should be noted, Mr. Speaker, we have heard many comments in this House about money wasted, about explosions wasting money in connection with the Gul~ Island project.

Here we have the federal government agreeing to recognize all expenditures made by Newfoundland on the Gull Island project and to give this Province credit in shares of this Corporation for the expenditures already made. So these expenditures - AN HON. MEMBER: All (inaudible) . MR. BARRY: Yes, all expenditures interest, however, which has been accruing and which continues to increase the amount there, there will be a cutoff point and the upper limit is $100 million.

There was - $65 million, I think, the expenditures actually were, and since that time interest has increased the amount that is attributable to that work and the federal government has said, we will provide a credit up to $100 million in equity in the LCDC Corporation in recognition of the' expenditures made by the Province and approximately, well, $100 million class-A shares will be issued to Newfoundland in exchange for the assets of the Gull Island Corporation.

Also, the expenditure made by the Province of Newfoundland, the $30 million paid to BRINCO to get back, to repatriate, to get back our birth rights that had been given away, $30 million that was spent by this government to purchase these water rights from BRINCO will also be credited to the Province. And the class-B shares will be issued in return for these water rights with respect to Gull and Muskrat Falls which were obtained.

The Lower Churchill Development Corporation will initially carry out a study, and this study involves a capital and operating cost reivew, it is now going on, a construction programme with the development of an appropriate timetable. A 1603

August 8, 1979 Tape 638 Pk - 2 Mr. Barry: financial plan governing the programme, a marketing plan, all of this is now being done, environmental assessments, a plan to maximize Newfoundland employment ~1d similar plans to maximize other elements of Newfoundland content, machinery, equipment, supplies etc. Another very basic proviso that this government insists go into any project of this nature;. that Newfoundlanders be employed, that we use Newfoundland goods and Newfoundland labour. A very basic philosophical difference in the way that resource development has occurred in the past in this Province.

Also 1 at the present t.ime detailed plans are being prepared regarding the obtaining of licences and so on that may be involved in connection with the project. Now1 when the study is completed, as I said, the parties will get together and consider the feasibility and decide whether they can support - and decide in good faith, I might mention - whether they can support the financing which will be needed for the project as identified by the study.

If a decision is reached to proceed with the development,the Lower Churchill Development Corporation has the right to exercise its option then on the Gull Island ?ower Cmmpany assets, and the Churchill River water rights. They do not get the rights until they decide that they are prepared to proceed with the development. In connection with the option,the Corporation will provide a convertible demand debenture to the Province, and this is attached as the Third

Schedule to this Bill, in an amount equal to the agreed value of the Gull Island assets and that could be up to $100 million, and the water rights another $30 million. As the Lower Churchill Development Corporation incurs financial obligations beyond the $5 million which was put in by the federal government initially for the study, the federal government will provide additional funds and receive additional 1604

August 8, 1979 Tape 638 Mr. Barry: class-A shares, and the 51 per cent-49 per cent balance will be maintained by Newfoundland's exercising of its right to conversion of the 1605 PK - 3

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 639 DW - 1 MR. L. BARRY: debenture into Class A shares. So initially it will transfer the Gull Island assets in return for this debenture which could be as much as $110 million to $130 million and as the money is put in by the Federal Government the province's portion will be .put in by decreasing this deben­ ture. So1 in effect,the Province will be converting the expenditures on Gull Island into equity in the project. It is anticipated, as I mentioned,that equity will be 10 per cent of the total project cost. So you can figure then 10 per cent equity on $3.3 billion would be $330 million.

So we can antic~pate Newfoundland having to contribute additional cash up to approximately $75 million. As the Federal Government puts in,say, $150 million or $160 million, the Province will have to put in additional cash which could be as much as $75 million. I!R. D. JAMIESON: MR. L. BARRY: MR. D. JAMIESON: Would the minister (inaudible) • Yes. I do not want to interrupt the hon. minister's train of thought but he dropped in the figure of $3.3 billion and I aw just curious as to - I think that was the first time it emeraen in '>is comments and I am wondering to what it relates.

Is it the estimated cost of the project? MR. L. BARRY: This is the latest figure which is subject to this final cost estimate which is now being carried out.But the last sort of look that was taken at the Gull Island project, there were indications that its cost had reached the $3.3 billion mark. It is not a reliable figure for us to use at· the present time in order to make a decision to go,for example.

Obviously,we need this final updated study which brings in the most recent inflationary trends, increases in costs of materials and so on and this now being carried out and will be completed by the end of 1979 or early 1980. Muskrat by comparisonJagain a ballpark figure 7indicates about $1.7 billion for ~~skrat. MR. D. JAMIESON: The $3.3 billion is the Lower Churchill. 1606

August 8, 1979 Tape NO. 639 DW - 2 MR. L. BARRY: JUst about half as much - PREMIER PECKFORD: Gull Island. MR. D. JAMIESON: I am sorry, Gull Island. MR. L. BARRY: Gull Island is $3. 3 billion it seems roughly and Muskrat Sl. 7 billion. unfortunately, although Muskrat is about half the cost 1you only get a bit ·more than one-third the energy. So you can see the decision that we are going to have to make.Muskrat on the other hand will not require as much financing so it will be a question of what we can afford. And.also,we will be able to take up the complete load from Muskrat virtually as soon as it is completed.

There have been a number of protections built in to this agreement to protect Newfoundland's interests. The corporation is to have a twelve man Board of Directors, six to be nominated by Newfoundland, five to be nominated by Canada, and the Chief Executive Officer to be the twelfth. The Chief Executive Officer is selected, has been already, Mr. Wally Reid, selected by agreement between the Province and the Federal Govern­ ment. The Chairman of the Board is to be one of the Newfoundland nominees and the Chairman will have a second vote in the event.of a tie,so he will have a tie-casting vote - MR. D.

JAMIESON: would the Chairman be an official or some- body from outside of the Public Service: MR. L. BII.RRY: He would, I anticipate 7 probably be the Chairman of Newfoundland and Lab~ador Hydro but that has not been finally decided. The second condition,or second protection for Newfoundland 7 is that apart from the fact we have this majority control on the board, we have the right to first refusal on all power from the development. Thirdly, we may at any time elect to acquire from the Federal Government the outstanding shares, to buy out the Federal c~vernment.

The price to be agreed is provided for, there is a formula there which would basically give the Eederal 1.607

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 639 ow - 3 MR. L. BARRY: Government back its money plus an agreed right of return which is about the borrowing rate of the Federal Government plus one-eighth of 1 per cent interest, 1608

-- ~ August 8, 1979 Tape No. 640 NM - l MR. BARRY: this is the formula agreed upon, less any dividends that have accrued to the federal government in the interim. The LCDC power sales are intended to ensure that the corporation obtains the best available terms for power sold and there is protection in the event of price escalation, if any long-term contracts are entered into there will be escalator clauses.

The corporation, as I mentioned, will develop employment and purchase plans and practices to maximize Newfoundland cor.t~nt and Newfoundland is to be the sole holder of the class 'B' shares which, when profits ao over eighteen oer cent, will mean all of these super profits, exceptional profits, will accrue to the Newfoundland Treasury.

Now1 we have had to agree to certain terms in order to provide protection to the federal government and these terms are that there are a number of things relating to the operation of the corporation which require unanimous approval, approval of both the Province and the federal government, at a share­ holders meeting.

For example, if there is a change in authorized share capital, if there is a material change in the business activity _of the corporation, just to go through some of these, there must be unanimous approval for the establishment of corporate policy regarding the conduct of a study that is being carried out, regarding the operation and management of the project, regarding the marketina of electricity but subject to Newfoundland's right of first refusal, like Canada recognizes that Newfoundland has this right and will have this right.

There are a number of others that require the unanimous approval of the federal government including,! might mention,any agreement with the Province of Quebec relating to water flow of the Churchill River and the transmission of electricity to or from Quebec. 1.609

August 6, 1979 Tape No. 640 NM - 2 MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that everybody in the Province recognizes the tremendous benefits that will flow to our Province from seeing that the · development of the Lower Churchill proceeds. We believe that the development corporation, through its access to federal funding and more importantly through federal support by power purchase agreements, completion guarantees or similar assurances,that this corporation will be an effective instrument to facilitate the development of Gull Island or Muskrat Falls, or both.

The involvement of the federal government, with the Government of Newfoundland as an ally in the development of an effective marketing strategy for Labrador power 1 can be of major assistance. The degree to which the federal government is prepared to use its influence in terms of negotiating with Quebec,if such negotiations are needed, is obviously something that is up in the air but we can be sure that we would gain assistance from the federal government in our discussions with Quebec or other provinces. The fact that we have them on side will give the whole project additional stature.

But paramount in our thinking with respect to the development corporation 1 should be the fact that we have federal government backing, we have the federal government commitment to put its financial resources behind this project if the study establishes, as I am sure it will, that it is a viable project. Mr. Speaker, I could go on a bit longer but I think that there is no point in labouring this too much. I will be prepared to,in closing debate, respond to any points which hon. members want to raise on this project. we want, the people of this Province want, to see the Lower Churchill development proceed.

There has been a lot of work qo into the putting together of this agreement, with the Government of Canada. I believe. that it is a very sound and sensible way to proceed. I believe that it is a way that will see the earliest and most efficient, most expeditious development of the Lower Churchill River, whether it be at Muskrat Falls, or at 1610

August 8, 1979 Tape 641 EC- 1 MR. BARRY: Gull Island, and I ask the members of this House to throw their whole-hearted support behind the bill which is now before them. 'lhank you very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: (Butt) White Bay. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. RIDEOUT: Hear, hear! The hen. the member for Baie Verte - Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, the closing words of the minister - he asked the members of this House to throw their whole-hearted support behind this bill -we can respond to very quickly. We have no hesitation whatsoever with the principle as outlined in Bill No. 26. MR. NEARY: MR. RIDEOUT: SOME HON.

MEMBERS: MR. RIDEOUT: Hear, hear! And I want to ~ay that at the beginning. Hear, hear! We have no quarrel with what the bill is doing, setting up the Lower Churchill Development Corporation. The principl"e as outlined in the bill, the setting up of this corporation with the express down-the-road aim of developing the hydro potential of the i.ower Churchill : is one that we have close affinity with, is one that we have no hesitation whatsoever in supporting. But, Mr.

Speaker, having said that, we do have some reservations about what has taken place up to this particular point in the development of the Lower Churchill, and it is interesting to note, Mr. Speaker, that the chicken has really come home to roost, because the minister who is now introducing and piloting this bill through the House was the same man who was Minister of !1.ines and Energy in 1975, when the colossal mistake in hindsight was made to proceed with that development for reasons that I will not go into in this particular debate. So the chicken,in that respect,has come home to roost.

Now_. what does this bill really do? - Mr. Speaker, is what we must look at - ~,e principle we have no quarrel with, but we do insist that the bill merits some debate and we have to look at the hi~torJ of the project up to this particular point in time. 1611 -·

August 8, 1979 Tape 641 EC - 2 MR. RIDEOUT; The min~ster, himself, admits that there is no federal commitment to enter ~to the development of the Lower Churchill.

There is a very footloose and fancy-free clause ~ the b~ll say~g that both sides w~ll, after the reassessment has been done - and that is exactly all that th~s bill does, proposes a further study, an update study and a reassessment of the feas~il~ty of the development of the Lower Church~ll - and ~ very fancy language, it proposes after that that both sides ~ the agreement, the Government of Canada and the Government of Newfoundland, will agree to s~t down ~ good f~th and study the recommendat~ons that w~ll come out of that report. So that is,in essence~what the bill is all about. So, Mr.

Speaker, what really then are we saying? We have a commitment to study, we have a commitment for reassessment ud we have a commitment to sit down and look over the recommendations after the study and reassessment have been done. And I am delighted with the federal participation. I happen to agree, as I. will go ~to ~ some det~l a little later on, that without federal participation in this particular project, the poss~~lity of this Prov~ce ever develop~g in the very near future that k~d of project is cert~nly very limited. But what, in effect, do we have? What we have in this bill, Mr.

Speaker, fortunately for this Province, is a b~l-out by the federal government of the premature action of this government in 1975. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: That is exactly what we have in this bill, a b~l-out of the premature action taken - not saying that we should not do it now, but this government, Mr. Speaker, has been very fortunate, this government has been very lucky. And I might say as an aside that this particular agreement was negotiated with that much maligned previous administration in Ottawa.

This is the crowd who are putting money into it, are up front with it, the crowd who have agreed, were they there, to sit down in good faith and reassess the study after it was done. That is e~actly what this is, it is a bail-out of the premature action taken 1612

... · August a, 1979 Tape 64~ EC - 3 MR. IUDEOtl'l': by this government in 1975. And I say it is prexnal:ure because we have to qo no further, Mr. Spea.kel:, than the very lenql:hy ministerial statement made i n this House by a fooner minister of Mines and Energy on November 28, 1975. The present Minister of Finance in Ottawa , Mr. Crosbie, made a ve:ey lenqthy stacell\81\t in 1975 1 and tile statement admitted - Mr. Crosbie bared his soul to the people of this Province in November 1975; not in J une or August:. because there was an election, remember, in September, 1613 •· .-

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 642 SD - 1 MR. T. RIDEOUT : but in November 1975, Mr. Crosbie bared his soul to the people of this Province when he had to come before this House and say that the decision made by the present bon. gentleman who is l•tinister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L. Barry) was a misleading decision, that the people of this Province had been grossly sucked in by the decision made at that particular time. HR. L. BARRY: MR. SPEAKER: (Butt) Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: On a point of order. On a point of order, the hen.

If the bon. member is going to quote a statement then I submit that he should quote it accurately and that he is misleading the House,deliberately or otherwise,and I will have the hen. member say that by his purported references to a Ministsrial Statement which contained no such words. Now, if the hen. member would like to, I submit, I ask him to table the statement to which he refers. MR. T. RIDEOUT: To the point of order, Hr. Speaker, the bon. gentleman, I will have the statement hand-carted over to his desk if he wants when I am finished with it and I will be quoting from the statement.

And I understand the rules of the House enough" to know that if I quote from a document, it must be tabled and the short-fused gentleman from Mount Scio will just have to wait until I am ready to table it. MR. L. BARRY: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker, There were certain words used which I ask be withdrawn if they are not contained in the quotation. MR. T. RIDEOUT: I said misleading. 11R. L. BARRY : You said sucked in. The hon. member said sucked in, Mr. Speaker, and that wording, I submit, is not in the Hinisterial Statement, that it is misleading to the House.

N.::.w, is it in the statement or is it not? i1R. T. RIDEOUT : Sit down, boy. HR. L. BARRY: Is it in the statement? 1614

August B, 1979 Tap~ No. 642 NM- 2 HR. RIDEOUT : Hr. Speaker, if the term is unparliamentary I will certainly withdraw it without qualification. A ruling, ~1r. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : On the point of order, this is a diffeFence of opinion between two hen. members. White Bay. HR. RIDEOUT: The hen. member for Baie Verte- What we are seeing here - and I have only been speaking five minutes, I have not been provocative, I am making a point - what we are seeing here 1 Hr.

Speaker, is the reason why the air of co-operation that has existed in this House for the last month of so, the air of co-operation that existed in tile coounittees for the last month or so, really turned into a dog fight last night when we were discussing the estimates of that minister. T!>e minister is a short-fused minister. If he cannot take the heat then he si1ould get out of the kitchen. lie nas to - this is a debating forum. The minister has made his points. I am making mine. If I say something in the heat of debate unparliamentary I withdraw it without any qualifcation whatsoever.

So no problems with that. What I was saying, Mr. Speaker, is that the former Minister of Energy in 1978) had to come into this House and say that a premature decision was made in 197S,when the Lower Churchill, the Gull Island project was announced and the present i-tinister of ;-lines and Energy (Mr. Barry) was the then Minister of Hines and Energy when that. premature decision was made in the first place.

And in the document that the minister read in the House at that time in talking about financing and I will be quoting from it as I go along, is the study stated that the required capital could be obtained for tile project provided an assured marKet existed for the energy and ti1e project had suitable financial strong supporters. And then the minister has aCII!litted 1 even in Committee and in Question Period in this House 1 that we still do not today nave ~~e substantial 1615 .,.

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 642 MR, RIDEOUT: buyers of that b~ock of energy. Even today we do not have th;tt, And th.i.S was the -thing that cost this Province at the tiJne $110 mi1~ion. Now,I said fortunately, fortunately, the federal gover:nment has agreed by this bi~J: to save this administration, to save this Province, because they ;~.re allowing us to buy into the cozporation around $100 mi~llon equity, I understand,in return for the money we have uready spent on the Lower CllurclU~l development.

So w!!,at cou~d have been a $ll0 mil~ion bluff turns out to be llCW an asset in the sense that we can buy into the cozporation. AJld that is fortunate, fortunate for the fina.nciU well being and financiu stabi~ity of this Province.

The stat~nt goes on to say : "One of the issues addressed by the feasl:lility S1tudY" - this is the one done by Teshmont-Zinder, I gliess is the proper pronunciation - "One of the issues addressed by the feasibi~ity study was the ' ability of the Province of Newfoundland to act as the sole financia~ backer of the entire project, It was considerea however that the investment was too L;Lrge in relation to the income, resources and eredi t of the Province:' Now the minister had that in£ormation before him in 1975 .,. ·- 1616

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 643 NM - 1 MR. RIDEOUT: when they made this decision in the beginning, and that is where we had to1 on principle, take exception with the present Minister of Mines and Energy . His successor had to come into this House and say that that decision was wrong, it was made for all the wrong reasons, it was made when the facts told us we could not back it up. So you know, Mr. SpeaY:er, t !1is is not my words, those are the words in the ministerial statement of the minister's successor, immediate successor I might add, in the port folio of Mines and Energy.

So we have to take exception with this present minister and that is why I say,in his particular case,the chicken pas come home to roost. He is back here today now piloting this bill through the House, having made the colossal blunder in the beginning. Fortunately 1 thank heavens 1 for this Province,we have now been bailed out by the Government of Canada.

We have now been bailed out by the government in Ottawa and I hope, and in supporting the bill we have no hesitation in saying, we all hope that the Government of Canada will help this Province in every way possible financial and otherwise, to get that development going. Now, Mr. Speaker, having said that there are a few other comments I want to make. It seems to me that listening to the Minister of Mines and Energy since he has taken over the p~rt folio, that the minister has not the slightest idea of what his department's energy policy is for this Province.

We had the minister before the Resource Committee last night and we asked him very pointed, very hard­ hitting questions about where are we going in the development of Labrador power. And the minister talked about all kinds of alternatives, in this particular ministerial statement that I refer to here,there is. study after study, a half a dozen of them by Teshmont and there are some more by Morgan Stanley, and some more done by Hydro itself, and now the minister tells us that they are doing another reassessment.

There is another reassessment being done, in addition by the way to the one that this bill is providing for, but there is another reassessment being 1617

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 643 NM- 2 MR. RIDEOUT: done to look at the alternatives as far as the development of Labrador energy goes. They are looking at the alternative of Muskrat by itself. They are looking at the alternative of Gull Island plus Muskrat. They are looking at the alternative of power going westward. They are looking at the alternative of power coming down to the Island. And they are looking at the alternative of bringing in a large industrial user of larg~ energy blocks in Labrador.

After all this time, and back to the same minister again, we still do not know, we still do not have a clear­ cut energy policy as far as the development of Labrador power goes. So I think, Mr. Speaker, that it is very unfortunate that after all this time, after all the expenditure of money that has been expended on the Lower Churchill development - thank Heavens for the bail-out from the federal government. There is nothing wrong with that. Thank heavens for it - after all that we still have not been able to get from this minister a clear-cut government policy of development of Labrador energy.

Even in Question Period in the House the minister goes so far as to admit that unless there is a commitment from the federal government,this Province does not in its own right have the financial capability of developing even the smaller of the projects which is the Muskrat Falls development. The minister in the House on July 17th. told us that, that we will have to have a guarantee from the Government of canada before this Province could have the financial means of even backing the estimated $1.1 billion development on the Muskrat Falls. So we are back here, Mr.

Speaker, in 1979, after all the grandiose plans and talks of this minister and this administration, we are back here after the former Minister of Mines and Energy, the present ~~nister of Finance in Ottawa, said it was all a mistake in the beginninq - and, by the way, he was a minister in that government then - it was all a 1618

.\ugust 8, 1979 Tape No. 643 NM - 3 MR. RIDEOUT: mistake in the beg.inning - it was a premature :,low up on both sides of the Straits - we are back here with Sl~O million expend .ed to date on the development of the Lower Churchill, of which $100 million we will have equity participation in u:oc, what about the extra $10 million that it has cost us co chis point in time? What about the interest? The LCDC aareement does not make any provision for the inclusion of the interest.

We are back here at . this particular time learning from Committee last night that the $78 million loan that this ?rovince made Newfoundland Hydro in 19751 in order that the election campaign could get under,o~ay, that if there is no reactivation of the 1619 .·

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 644 GH-1 MR. RIDEOUT: project by 1980, that loan is forgiven. l'i'e learned that last night for the first time, now albeit that part of it will be returned in equity participation in LCDC but, Mr.

Speaker, that is where we are, that is the energy policy of this particular administration up to this particular point in time_ ?~d the long-term result of it, I suppose, has been that because we have allowed Newfoundland Hydro to go ahead with this mad rate of borrowing, especially for this project, I am not talking about the U)?per Salmon or Hinds Lake or anything like that, but this particular project, and the result has been that the consumer,' the ordinary consumer in this Province, has had to pay through the nose in order to finance the mad borrowings, the mad fiscal escapades that went on in the latter days of 1975 leading up to what happened in the Fall,when the Minister of Mines and Energy had to come in here and say, "It was ill-conceived in the beginningi we have never had the financial capability to back it up; we had no industrial user; we had no agreement to sell it", but yet the $110 million of the taxpayers' money of this Province was pumped into that ill-conceived scheme in the beginning.

Now, I am not suggesting that it was ill-conceived to conceive the development of the Lower Churchill, but I am saying at that particular time, Mr. Speaker, the timing is the essence here. This agreement with the Government of Canada is an excellent agreement, we have no hesitation whatsoever in saying that, but thank God,for reasons beyond our control,basically in the international arena and in the national arena, the Government of canada had to come in and help bail out the $110 million blunder that this administration made back at that particular time. So, Mr.

Speaker, in supporting the principle of the Bill, I want to say again that we have no particular hesitation in doing so. We do hope that once the studies have been done, once the reassessment has been completed, that the present Government of Canada will negotiate in good faith, as Clause 26 says, the eventual development 1620 '

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 644 GH-2 MR. RIDEOUT: because we do not, Mr. Speaker, and that is the essential thing to remember, we do not have an agreement to develop. we have an agreement to reassess ~~ to study, so we hope that once that is done, once the studies are in, we hope that the present Government of canada will indeed negotiate the eventual development of the project in good faith as the previous Government of canada was willing to write into the agreement that we eventually will be giving assent to here today or tomorrow. So, Mr.

Speaker, we do support the principle of the Bill, we think in doing so it is only fair and that indeed it is our responsibility ~ point out to the people of this Province that the premature blunder made in 1975 will eventually turn out right, hopefully, thanks for the participation and the good will of the Government of Ottawa. If not, this Province would have been the loser and the loser very sorely because of the premature blunder made by the man who has had to come back here now and try to correct it in this legislation through the House. Thank you. SOME HON. MEJ:mERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: (Mr.

Butt) The han. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, under the circumstances I think I have very little choice other than to take

part in this debate today in relation to Bill No,_ 26. Obviously, I have a very personal interest in this Bill and what it implies, the possible development of the Gull Island and Muskrat Falls areas of the Churchill River. Churchill River itself completely dissects my district, the district of Naskaupi, Churchill Falls being the extreme Western end of Naskaupi district, and Muskrat Falls being 14 miles upriver from Happy Valley - Goose Bay, which is a part of the extreme Eastern end of my district. So, there 1.621

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 644 GH-3 MR. GOUDIE: is an obvious interest in that way in the development, any implications of a development in terms of employment, in terms of future 1622

August 8, 1979 Tape 645 RT-1 MR. GOUDIE: industry locating in this Province, specifically in the Lake Melville area of Labrador,and I guess the personal interest extends a little further than that, Mr. Speaker, in ~~at my family has been connected directly with the land and the waters of the Churchill River for several years past.

Lobstick Lake which now makes up a part of the Smallwood Reservoir which feeds the turbines of the present Churchill Falls complex was the trapping ground of my father and a couple of my brothers, and other members of the family as well, so there are several interests involved in my comments. I was probably the most disappointed member of the House of Assembly, I guess, in 1975 when the announcement was made that Gull Island was not going to go ahead. Some hen. members of the present House will remember that the then member for Eagle River (Mr.

Strachan) and myself received quite a number of telegrams from individuals, from groups, and other interested parties in Naskaupi District and other parts of Labrador who were extremly upset that Gull Island was not going to go ahead when it had been planned to do so. I certainly remember the psychological effect,and the psychological effect is still present in my district,when the decision was made not to proceed. So there are several interests here. I think something else that should be pointed out, Mr.

Speaker - Well, first of all I would agree with the principle of the Bill that the Federal and Provincial Governments and if other agencies are necessary to be brought into this whole process of developing the hydro potential of d•urchill River then I am all in favour of it - but I think I should point out and I am sure that most hon. members of the House realize already, that it is not just the two levels of government and other financial institutions who have an interest in this, but just on Friday past I had a meeting with four representatives of the tlaskaupi-Montagnais Innu Association who made a request that they are now interested in sitting down and discussing land claims as it applies to the Naskaupi and the Montagnais Indians in Labrador, and there is another group, ~~e Labrador Inuit Association 1 1623 '

August 8, 1979 Tape 645 RT-2 MR. GOUDIE: who has similar interests. The areas which will be affected either by the Gull Island or the Muskrat Falls development is going to affect traditional hunting lands not only of the Indian people but some of the other settler people of Labrador as well. I think there are just two people left now in the Lake Melville area who trap parts of the banks of the Churchill River and still earn a livelihood from it.

So their livelihoods are going to be affected, I suppose in one way, but the overall land claims issue is going to have to be addressed, I think, and one of the proposed developments in Labrador which will directly affect any discussions in relation to lands issues will be the eventual development of the Lower Churchil hydro potential. So these two groups are going to have an obvious interest in this as well.

I think the people of Labrador for the II'()St part now realize the tremendous potential we have in our part of the Province for many industrial developments, not just hydro, but the uranium possibilities, the woods possibilities, the requirement not only for hydro development but a good year-round transportation system and other developments which will have a direct effect on the future, not only of Labrador but of the Province as a whole.

And considering the desperate economic situation we have in the Happy Valley­ Goose Bay area and the neighbouring communities of i~orth West River and Mud Lake,which are directly affected one way or the other by the economic situation in the larger towns of Happy Valley-Goose Bay, everyone in that area is hoping desperately for some kind of industrial development to take place very soon.

We have gone through two tremendously hard winters with a great many people living off unemployment insurance or short-term temporary employment barely struggling through, and this kind of effort will alleviate these unemployment problems we have presently for the short-term.And, of course, one of the major rationales behind the proposed development of the Lower Churchill is the 1624 '

August 8, 1979 Tape 645 RT-3 MR. GOUDIE: possibility then of attracting industry from ot.'ler parts of Canada and other parts of the world, I suppose, when you 1625 '

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 646 GH-1 MR. GOUDIE: look at the possibilities for uranium smelting, for the - I am sorry, aluminum smelting - the uranium developments and wood harvesting al\d wood processing and so on. I would suggest that the Happy Valley - Goose Bay area is presently well equipped to accommodate personnel, equipment and other require­ ments necessary for any hydro development which would.go ahead when you consider that the American Forces and Canadian Forces moved out of our area several years ago and left some of the prime real estate, certainly in Eastern Canada.

The airstrip alone, I believe, is second only to the airstrip at - what is that new place just outside of Montreal that was developed a few years ago - AN HON. MEMBER: Mirabel. MR. GOUDIE: - Mirabel Airport - I understand Mirabel has the largest or the longest airstrip in Canada.

It has been established that Goose Bay has the second longest, so in terms of air transportation and movement of personnel in and out, the real estate, the buildings, the facilities there are certainly in good enough condition to accommodate many of the requirements of any potential development. so, I just wanted to stand briefly and support this Bill, the principle of the Bill. I agree with the hen. member for Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr.

Rideout) that there were some faux pas pulled in the past and I think the point he made that hindsight is always better than foresight in many ways, realizing that mistakes were made, and with the agreement of the federal government now to consider the expenses in the past as a part of the whole equity consideration, and that, I suppose, is one of the areas in which we benefit. But my district probably stands to benefit more than any other individual district in the Province, obviously the Province as a whole would benefit from this type of development.

I have no hesitation in supporting this Bill, and my added hope is that before too much longer,within the 1626

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 646 GH-2 MR. GOUDIE: next year or two years, that we can actually see the physical development of either Gull Island or Muskrat Falls or both, proceed for the benefit of Labrador and the Province as a whole. SOME RON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Butt) MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! The hon. the member for Lapoile. Mr. Speaker, I just want to have a few brief comments on this Bill. I listened to what the hon. gentle­ man who just took his seat had to say in support of the Bill, Sir, and I must say that I did not realize that the hon. gentleman was so naive. The member for Naskaupi QMr.

Goudie) leaves the impression, Mr. Speaker, apparently he is under the impression, that this means by passing this Bill in the House, this piece of enabling legislation in the House, means that the development of the Lower Churchill is going to go ahead when in actual fact, that is not the purpose of the Bill at all. MR. GOUDIE: There is a possibility. MR. NEARY: There is a possibility, there was a possibility back in 1971. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, for the benefit of the hon. gentleman, there was a proposal before the government in 1971 and 1972 that the development of the Lower Churchill go ahead at a cost, Mr. Speaker, at a cost of $700 or $800 ~illion. In that proposal was an aluminum plant to be put right side by side , by the development of the Lower Churchill, the hydro development, side by side.

The gentleman who was here the other day, who met with the Premier on Regatta Day, put a proposal to this government to develop the Lower Churchill and put an aluminum plant employing several thousand Newfoundlanders side by side of the hydro development of the Lower Churchill. For that, Mr. Speaker, they were kicked out of Newfoundland, kicked out. So the hon. member for Naskaupi now tries to leave the impression, at least that is how I interpreted his remarks, as meaning that now we are going to put a Bill through the House, a piece of enabling legislation, 1627

Au.gust a, 1979 Tape No. 646 GH-3 MR.~: con£irming that a joint federal-provincial CroWn corporation be established to study the Lower Churchill, anq that is aJ.l it is at this point in time, Mr. Speaker, is a study. It is another study of the, Lower Ch.urchi.ll. Mr. speaker, back in 19731 this government, t1w TOey government, made what I consider to be the most colossal blunder that was ever made in Newfoundlai;d 1 s history, and that was when th.ey kicked out BRINCO, Which was a magnificent corporate citizen in this Province, ld.cked out BRINCO and nationalized the Churchill Falls Corporation. 1628 .: '

August 8, 1979 Tape No.647 NM - l MR. NEARY: That was a colossal blunder and it is costing the taxpayers of this Province, Sir, an arm and a leg. The money to take over the Churchill Falls Corporation was borrowed from a bank. The interim financing was arranged at the bank and on that loan, . I believe the original loan was $165 million, the taxpayers had to pay interest on that loan for almost a year, I do not know but longer than a year. And then the Newfoundland Hydro, or somebody floated a Land issue to pay off the loan. But, Mr.

Speaker, are members of this House aware, are they aware that this loan which is now well over $200 million, it started out to be the purchase price $165 million, went well over $200 million, that the taxpayers of this Province are paying over $30 million interest every year for that blunder? Yes, Sir, they are paying somewhere between $25 million and $30 million a year interest. And the hon. gentleman shakes his head and says no, I say yes. MR. SIMMONS: All he knows too. Shame. MR. NEARY: And the hon. gentleman disagreed with it. I do not know if he disagreed with it . .

He disagreed with the setting off of these two explosions on either side of the Straits of Belle Isle. The only dissenting voice on that side of the House was the present President .of the Council (Mr. Marshall). And, Mr. Speaker, if there was ever an example now to show that this crowd are not born again, that we have a minister back in 1975,who took the decision to set off these two explosions on either side of the Straits of Belle Isle, then the hon. gentleman got defeated, and now he is back in the House again. And he is in the same portfolio, exactly the same position, exactly the same position.

He should be banished to Limbo for the rest of his life for what he did. But no, he is back in the House again, in the same portfolio so he can make these mistakes and these blunders all over again. MR. SIMMONS: He bungled it then and he will bungle it now. 1629 '

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 647 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: He bungled it. And the hen. gentleman, the President of the Council, spoke against the proposal, spoke against the idea of going ahead at that time with the development of the Lower Churchill, because the hen. gentleman told us that the government was not ready, Newfoundland Hydro was not ready. There was no marltet for the power. I remember the hon. gentleman telling us that. Newfoundland could not afford it. The hen. gentleman knew that it was a bluff and told us so in this House and spoke aqainst it. And so, Mr.

Speaker, it is hard for me to comprehend anyway ho~ this can be a new government. We are seeing legislation being introduced by the same old crowd, the same old crowd, the minister of - whatever he is now, I do not know, what is he minister of now? MR. JAMIESON: Lands and Forests. MR. NEARY: Minister of what? The Minister of Lands and Forestry was a minister in that government. The present Premier was a minister in that government. AN HON • .MEMBER: MR. NEARY: No he was not. Oh yes he was when the explosions were set off.

He was not there when the colossal blunder was made to kick out BRINCO, one of the best corporate citizens we had in this Province and nationalize the Churchill Falls Corporation, the hen. gentleman was then an adviser in the Premier's Office. Later he became Minister of Mines and Energy. We had three - I believe in my time we had three ministers of Mines and Energy. We had Mr. Crosbie, we had the present Minister of Mines and Energy, and the Premier was also Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. SIMMONS: Do not forget (inaudible) MR. NEARY: Well he was only there for a short while,- was he not? Well there were four.

And I believe Mr. Moores was acting in that capacity at one point in time. But, Mr. Speaker, the present Minister of 1630

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 647 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: :tines whc:, is introducing this bill, .. and as my hon. colleague pointed out, we cannot very we~l voce against it, it is just motherhood. When my bon. colleague was up in Ottawa I would think chat my hon. colleague, the Leader of the Opposition was more responsible for getting the federal governmenc co participate in this great project than any other man in this aouse. And whe.'l the :>roposal first came up my bon. friend will remember, what did Mr. Crosbie and what did the ministers and the ?remier of the day say? What did they say? ' .. .. 1631

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 648 GH-1 MR. NEARY: They said they would not touch it with a barge pole, and as a result they delayed this joint federal-provincial Crown corporation for well over a year, a year and a half as a matter of fact; it was a year a half they were thumbing their noses at Ottawa and saying, "We do not need you. We do not want your help". That is what they did and they delayed this Bill that we now have before us by a year and a half - MR. JAMIESON: (Inaudible) cannot argue that. MR.

NEARY: No, they cannot argue it, but I will tell you what they will do, they will drag in a red herring, and here is what they are going to say, I can see the hon. the President of the Council now when he leaps to his feet, he is going to get up and he is going to say, "But the Government of Canada wanted equity in the project", and I say balderdash, that is not true, because I wired Mr.

Gillespie and I wrote him at the time, and I asked him if that was true and he said, "No", n-o, even though we were told in this House by the present Premier that the reason they were not interested in entering into this agreement a year and a half earlier was because the Government of canada wanted equity in the corporation, and that is not true. PREMIER PECKFORD: It was true. MR. NEARY: And it was not true, Sir, and the hon. gentleman can get up and repeat it all he wants.

We have the man here who will get up and put the hon. gentleman in his place in due course, because it was not true, that was a red herring, and it delayed as a result, Mr. Speaker, it delayed the setting up of this Crown corporation, which was an afterthought by the way. It came after BRINCO was kicked out, and BRINCO was kicked out on the grounds, Mr.

Speaker, that the Newfoundland Hydro needed the rights · to the rivers and streams, that Newfoundland had to get its hands on the rights, on our birthright when it was sold to BRINC01 had to get their hands on it, because they were going to go ahead right away with the development of the Lower Churchill. 1632

August 8, 1979 MR. JAMIESON: MR. NEARY: MR. JAMIESON: MR. NEARY: Tape No. 648 Immediate development. Pardon. Immediate development. GH-2 Immediate, it was immediate. They could not wait. They said, "No, we have to kick BRINCO out and we have to take back our rights to the Lower Churchill so we can go ahead and development it right away", and that was back in 1973, 1973. That was over six years ago, and since then we have been paying interest of $25 to $30 million a year on that money that was borrowed. There was no need of it. The takeover was premature.

The development did not go ahead, and ever since that colossal blunder the government has been doing nothing but bungling the development of the Lower Churchill. Back in 1975_,we were told in this House, and I have to admit that I was one of the ones who was sucked in - the hon. gentleman was not, I was - we were told that the development was going to go ahead and the only way, the only way that you could transmit power from Labrador to the Island of Newfoundland was through a tunnel underneath the Straits of Belle Isle. Now, we are told, Mr.

Speaker, now we are told that new technology makes it possible to transmit power to the Island of Newfoundland by submarine cable, only a few months later, now they have changed their tune again. And my hon. friend says the Government of Canada took them off the hook. Well, I do not know if that is quite correct or not. They may have taken them off the hook. They may have given them an excuse. AN RON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: They saved a $100 million loss.

Well, they really have not saved a $100 million loss, because that $110 million is added on to the provincial debt, one of the reasons why we have the highest debt, one of the reasons we have a $2.6 billion debt in this Province, that is one of the reasons for it, And, you know, talking about that $11 0 million, Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague did not mention 1633

August 8, 1979 Tape No. 648 GH-3 MR. NEARY: that we have never been able to get an accounting in this House of what that $110 million was spent on or how it was spent. we have never, Mr. Speaker, been able to get a· list of the contractors; we have never been able to get a list of whether or not public tenders were called; we have never been able to get a list of all the houses that were bought in St. John's, all the houses that were bought in St.

John's at exhorbitant, very high prices and then sold within a matter of months at reduced prices, at bargain basement prices; we have never been able to get a list, even though we have asked for it. Hen. gentlemen want to check Hansard, they will go back and they will find that I have asked numerous questions about that $110 million. Not one answer, Sir, it is almost - well, yes it is - it is equal to Labrador Linerboard. Now, $110 million of taxpayers' money, you may as well have taken it and thrown it ' out the window of Confederation Building - MR. JAMIESON: Or put it down the hole. MR.

NEARY: - or flushed it down the toilet - $110 million, Sir, $110 million. MR. BARRY: $65. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know where the hon. gentleman gets $65 million, we have proven in this House that it is $110 million that had to be borrowed, and you may as well have taken it down into the Straits of Belle Isle and just flung it out into the ocean, and let it float away with the current and no explanation for it. Before the hon. gentleman passes this Bill, .

I believe we on this side of the House should insist that the hon. gentleman give an accounting for that $110 million, table contracts and tell us how the $110 million was spent, where it was spent and who got it and were public tenders called. They were 1634 'l"i

August a, 1979 Tape 649 RT-l MR. NEARY: doling out contracts right, left and centre to their buddies. The same minister, Sir, that was minister then, Or, Mr. Speaker, are we allowed to refer to the paSt? Do we have to blot out that little episode in our history? can we not talk about that, or do we have to step into the future with 'Peckford; step into the Eighties with 'Feckford? Or can we ask now? We have not been able to get it before and the han. gentleman now ,all of a sudden,is portr~ying the image of honesty and integrity, which I commend him for. Will the han. gentleman give us the contracts, give us a list of the contractors, what the contracts were for, how much the