Manitoba Committee Hansard — 29 October 1979 (Public Expenditures Committee, Sitting 14, 31st Legislature, 4th Session)

31-4-pe14

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Legislative Assembly of Manitoba STANDING COMMITTEE ON PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS Chairman: Mr. J. Wally McKenzie Constituency of Roblin Monday, October 29, 1979 10:00 A.M. Office of the Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

Hearing Of The Standing Committee On Time: 10:00 a.m. Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. J. Wally McKenzie. MR. CHAIRMAN: The committee will come to order and I'll call Mr. Toews, Mr. Robert Toews, from Virden. MR. ROBERT TOEWS: Mr. Chairman . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: You have some briefs there, some copies? MR. TOEWS: I have 15 copies of the brief and some supporting material that we are .. . MR. CHAIRMAN: Morris can help pass them around, there, if you wish. MR. TOEWS: ... just getting together. We might say while we're getting them all together, Mr. Chairman, that I have a brief preface to the brief, I won't take the time to read out. lt's just a

preamble, I suppose, to what we have to say and comment on what we are saying and why we haven't said certain things or why we have said other thi ngs. MR. CHAIRMAN: Proceed, sir. MR. TOEWS: Thank you. Mr. Chairman and members of the Privileges and Elections committee. Mr. Chairman, I appear before you today as a parent, citizen and a taxpayer.

As a parent who has seen three children pass through the education system of our province; as a citizen of Manitoba who was born here and moved away for sixteen years and came back to practise my profession here with confidence in the province's future and as a taxpayer who has been contributing to the support of the education system in Man itoba. I believe that this qualifies me, and the same qualifies many other Manitobans, to express some views on what appears to be happening in primary and secondary education today in Manitoba.

I dare say that no politician would tell any taxpayer that once the taxes have been paid, the taxpayer has no control over how it is spent. I suspect the taxpayer might be told that the fund s have been spent according to the mandate given by the majority of voters. With respect to the Family Life Program, which is the particular area in which this brief will deal, which is in our schools today, I expect that we will be told that the majority, notwithstan ding that it might be a silent majority, has supp orted the institution of the program.

But what concerns me is that I must be included in that silent majority, in spite of my appearance here today. Included because I must shamefully admit that I was too busy to attend a meeting which was held to discuss the institution of the program against which I am speaking today. Now I recall the occasion of the meeting being called, but I do not recall that it was publ icized as a meeting to discuss and consider giving teachers an almost unlimited area in which to discuss and advise our school children from Grade 1 to Grade 12 in matters sexual, under the urella phrase, Family Life.

I was not aware, and I question whether those parents who did attend the meeting, were aware of the contents of the guideline books which were to be provided to the teachers and the resource material referred to in them. Now if I might just refer you to a clipping taken from the Virden Empire Advance, which I must assume is correct, and this was a report under Family Life Education Course. lt said, and this was in 1973: "During the month of October public meetings were held at eleven centres in a division to provide parents with the opportu nity to discuss and to comment on the venture.

At these meetings those in attendance were asked to express their views using survey sheets." Now it seems to me that 375

t"nvneges ana 1:1ect1ons Monday, October 29, 1979 if we are going to consider something, it is not a question of using survey sheets, it should involve being told what is involved in the program. In any event, getting back to the brief: Over a period of time the reactions of some of the parents of young students in our high school have come to my attention , as well as the reasons for their reactions. I have since then become concerned that the incidents referred to have not been isolated.

I have now had the opportunity to peruse a book entitled "Education for Sexuality, Concepts and Pr9grams for Teaching", which later as I go on in the brief I will refer to as the red book, if for no other reason than that it is that color. This is the book. I just wonder how many of you members are aware of the contents of that book yourself. While I am sure that educators will be quick to say that the book is not to be used as a text book for children, and I agree with that, it shou ldn't be and I don't think it is being used.

Nevertheless, the book is explicit in its suggestions as to how to explain sexual functions to children, and it is particularly noted that the more explicit instructions begin in the Fourth Grade level. If such a book was put on the book stands for pu rchase by children, I wonder whether it would not soon be removed due to its pornographic content. But does putting it on the list of books authorized for use by teachers change the character of the contents? I don't think so.

From our experience we learned that reactions of Fourth graders to an attempt to expose them at that age to the birth of a child or baby was something which was expected due to their tender years. Some years ago when our youngest son was in Grade Four, we objected to allowing him to view the birth of a baby, which was being shown on a CBC television program. Now I must say that the teacher did indicate that this was going to be shown and we had the option to take our child out, which we did. After the program, the children, according to our son, were observed snickering and laughing.

If this is the natural reaction expected at that age level, then I suggest this early attempt to expose our children to sex education in the school, in my opinion, failed.

Upon reflection on the methods and reasons suggested in the red book for informing Fifth graders when, how and where sperm come from in a male, that is a human male, and trying to justify the reason to teach an eleven-year-old child this, it occurs to me that until the Family Life Program was instituted in our schools, we adults who have gone through the adolescent years without having received the benefit of such information, married and had children, certainly must consider ou rselves fortunate in having been able to procreate ou rselves without all of the detailed information, which now appears must be given to our children.

Has the ability of parents today to advise their children against sexual immorality and the value of clean living diminished to a state less than our ancestors ability? I su bmit that it may not have diminished, but merely has been coun teracted by the recognition by the media, that is, television, paper, and government in legislation of the permissive and promiscuous society which has developed. Now, just with respect to permissiveness. I would like to refer you to the Red Book, it's

Chapter 16 , and it deals with sex education of the fifth grade child. The

preamble to it, I won't read it all, the second last line and the last line read as follows: "The teacher must create a reciprocal, comfortable, permissive environment to maximize pupil learning. The unit suggested for the fifth grade is 'Discovering Yourself'." Here is an admonition to the teacher that the child must be taught permissiveness, and this is one thing we disagree with. When I say "we" in this brief, I include my wife.

Instead of combating the perm issiveness and sexual promiscuity, I believe that the family life program, more particularly in the high school grades, has given some respectability, in the minds of the students, to the attack on sexual morality, as well as the erosion of the values of the Ju deo-Christian mores.

What value and respect is left for marriage and commitment when the guidance teacher - and I must say at this point, not only the guidance teacher, but this book, and the counsellor's resource book, encou rages this type of education to take place at all levels of education, whether it's in social studies, English, you name it. lt is suggested that where the opportunity arises, it should be taught, or discussed.

But particularly when the guidance teacher has the full approbation of the Department of Education, through their school boards, to advise students on alternate lifestyles to marriage, and to encourage students to consider such lifestyles as homosexuality, lesbianism, and communal living, including members of the commune being committed to all other members. I'm sure you know what that means. And bio-parents and pro-parents, by that they mean, some conceive the children and others rear them for those who have conceived them.

I'm sure that the latter suggestions will sound somewhat strange to most of our ears today, particularly in our society as we know it. The question is, is it that some attempt is being made to subv ert our society in this way, and if so, for what reason? If 1 could just refer you to the counsellor's resource book for groups in guidance, and I must say, if 1 haven't already said it, this book is put out by the Department of Education, Province of Manitoba, as well as other books that I'll be referring to. But re ferring to the alternative lifestyles, 376

Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 it says, in Unit 220, Page 1, "the object is to develop in students an awareness of the functions of the traditional family and its problems." Then it goes on, "Content and Activities, amongst other things considering the nuclear family, the extended family, the one-parent families, temporary famil ies, trial marriages, serial marriages, common-law unions, the streamlined family, no children, a career couple, children after retirement, that is buying an embryo," here even suggesting science should be discussed in this program.

Then (6), bio-parents and pro-parents, which I have mentioned. Homosexual relationships, communes with married or firmly commit ted couples, with all members committed to all others. These are some of the thi ngs that the teachers, while I'm not saying they will teach that or will want to, but it's there for them to teach. And as a parent I'm shocked and dismayed that I allowed this to happen without me saying something before now. I must observe that I feel that we must be on our guard against a situation which all too often happens.

And I use a situation which is unlawfu l, which is allowed to continue without serious government concern or intervention or serious prosecution by the government. Soon it becomes apparent that the vocal minority in indulging in the unlawful act, has caused sufficient attention to be drawn to the illegality and gathers support from its supporters and because of lack of opposition from the vast majority of the population, who may be against it, the illegality is condoned, in a sense, and I would ask you to consider the Marijuana Commission and the results that came because of that.

As a matter of fact I recently heard that the government now, the Federal Government, has given some thought to reconsidering its stand, which I understand was to not be too hard on marijuana users but it's like the salesman who gets his foot in the door, Mr. Chairman. Now, I would like to refer you to Page 11 6 of the Red Book. They refer to many people and we have a list which is attached to the brief, giving a list of all the authors that have been referred to in this Red Book, and other books, and their affi liations, political, ideological, and otherwise.

But I would like to refer you to Page 116 of the Red Book right now. First of all it refers to Pierre Burton and his attack on the church, "The Comfortable Pew", and it says: "The Comfortable Pew approach as applied to sex education, might take this form: Su ppose that consciously or unconsciously you were more concerned with your personal popularity than with first principles. Your obvious road to success would be to avoid logical principles that support currently popular attitudes towards sexual behaviour.

But supporting an attitude because it is uncomfortable to oppo se it, doesn't do much to improve either the older or the younger generation. The sex educator must not compromise his first principles simply to maintain his popu larity ... And I'm here today to tell you, Mr. Chairman, that we have struck our course and while it may be a popular thing to espouse or to accept what is happening, we're taking the other road, we're prepared to be unpopular, whatever the cost. Now I should like to also, and I co uldn't complete this brief without making reference to other influences.

In the Red Book at Page 392 in an excerpt from a speech which was given in an Ohio, U.S. community and the question may arise, why am I using American textbooks or American books for reference? Mr. Chairman, these are the books which have been provided to the schools to be used; that's why. I don't believe there are any Canadian books which we can refer to, but a comment was made in defense of the sex education program. The speaker attacked a group called "Parents Against Undemocratic Sex Education" for having claimed that sex education is a communist plot.

By whatever name, whether communist or Hum anist I would urge the members of the committee to consider the background and affiliations of some of the authors of the books which are included in the reference material in the red book, and by inference in the counsellors resource book because it refers back to the red book. Why have Canadians been so silent in questioning the effect that communism and its suppor ters in Canada have in our democratic society? Perhaps it is time to look into this area and consider where the inf luences are coming from.

I Believe it is unfortu nately a sad dichotomy that democracy permits the existence of the very thing that is dedicated to the destruction of democracy. The methods, subterfuge and mind manipu lation tactics that are used by the communits are too lengthy to consider at this time and I don't feel that I qualify to undertake this, but I do submit it is worthy of the consideration of the committee, bearing in mind the effects that such tactics can have on the young mind.

In this regard I would point out to you that many of the reference materials in the red book are authored by persons who are known to have been communist sympathizers, to say the least, and in one case actually a member of the communist party. Now I'd like to quote to you from my booklet entitled "The Assault on the Family" and that is part of the brief that I provided you with this morn ing, and it's by Dr. James M. Parsons, and he is a medical doctor, who is practising psychiatry in Melbourne, Florida.

The book was first printed in June, 1978 and the Fourth Printing of the Third Edition was printed in 1979, so it gives you 377

Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 some idea of the popularity of the book, and I quote from it: "After 20 years of sex education in Sweden, the following results were seen:

(1) Sweden had the highest venereal disease rate in the world;

(2) Promiscuity was so rampant that marriage was no longer respected; family life disintegrated; girls fifteen years old were being prescribed The Pill without parental knowledge or consent;

(3) Sweden's sexual perverts found spokesmen to declare that perversions were normal, and that even pedophiliacs, that is, child molesters, had a right to inqulge in their perversion; (4) in 1964 the Swedish national government was formally petitioned by prominent physicians and educators to bring an end to the sex education experiment which had caused "an unnatural oversexualization of the rising generation" . I sincerely hope, Mr. Chairman, that the proper authorities in Manitoba can see the trees in spite of the forest.

One of the most disturbing facts about sex education in the schools in Manitoba, under the heading "Family Life Education", is that, as Dr. Parsons states in his book, and I quote: "A child can walk away from a newsstand or throw away sexually oriented mail, but whoever walks out of the classroom becomes a truant. Sex education is thus the slick Hum anistic pornographer's way to gain a captive audience of school children and to play both ends against the middle while the family disintegrates. Again, please consider the Humanist code-word for sex educati on" and he says it's "Family Life Education".

Now surely it is every citizen's and certainly every parent's duty, to consider the direction which our education programs are tak ing. We cannot afford to leave the direction up to teachers alone and to those beliefs of the "experts" who have authored the reference material used, or available for use, by the teachers. We must not only question whether the direction is ulti mately right but also the motives and ideology, or lack of it, of the "experts".

I would hope and expect that the committee would enquire into my motives for presenting this brief, just as I would hope and expect the committee to enquire into and question the motives of the "experts". Now, I've referred to this already, a list of reference materials used by the red book and also referred to in the Counsellor's Resource Book for Groups in Gu idance provided by the Department of Education is attached for your perusal. My motives, simply stated, are that I am most concerned over the direction which education of the prim ary and secondary grades is taking.

Surely there is still something sacred about sex and the privacy of the family which I feel is being dehumanized and invaded. Now I can only refer to family privacy because I could be here all day telling you what's in that book and what they suggest, but there are such things as having children write stories about their families, telling the teacher all about what goes on in their home, opening themselves up completely to what I feel is an area of privacy that should be protected, if not at all costs, certainly in many areas.

I have noted in the reference books that certain statements akin to motherhood resolutions are made, we all know what that is. You don't dare oppose them because then you are said to be against motherhood, and to deny the truth of them leaves one open to criticism. So, you're damned if you do one thing and you're damned if you don't. Yet, on further examination of the statement made, it is not what it first appeared to be. On Page 267 of the red book, the suggested statement to be made to a fourth grader is this: "When you grow up you may find a boy or girl that you like very much. Then you decide to get married.

When you get married you promise to love and take care of each other. This is very important because unless a man and women really love and take care of each other, they certainly will not be able to love and take care of children. That is why you should get married before you try to have children of your own." No body is going to argue with that statement, I certainly won't. But the part that gets me is that there is nothing in the statement that such physical action required to produce a baby should not be engaged in before marriage.

Or there is no other comment that it's not right for you, as a fourth grader or a fifth grader or anybody else, to do this. I would urge those members of the committee who have not been directly associated with the education process to seriously consider the foregoing and whether in fact there is merit in is merit in the opposition to the continuation of the Family Life Program. I would also ask the committee to consider what evidence there is that the program is having beneficial effect on our young people.

Also perhaps the committee will be able to secure information which I was not able to secure from the government sources in Manitoba as to the pregnancy rate of school age girls and the incidence of venereal diseases among school aged children both before and after the inception of Family Life Programs. I just wish that I could in all fairness present these figures. But we were told to get that information it would cost $75 just to have a computer print it out for us, and we weren't assured that we were able to get it at that.

Without appearing paranoid, I would like to return to the matter of su bversive elements in our society, but I think it has to be referred to, and those elements which appear to be affecting our dem ocratic heritage and Jude o-Christian morals. 378

Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 I cou ld not close this brief without referring to one of the rules for revolution espoused by the Communists, and that is part of the contents of the book that has been provided to you. There is a list of them and I think you will see that there is a tick at the first one and a tick just below that. But it has been circulating, I have seen it in many papers lately, and apparently it is alleged to have been captured in 1919 in Dusseldorf, Germany. I can't give you any more information.

But in spite of where it may have been fou nd, or who found it, it goes on like this: "Corrupt the young; get them away from religion; get them interested in sex; make them superficial; destroy their ruggedness.'' Members of the Comm ittee, I am not constrained in any way to admit that I embrace the Christian faith and fully support the moral standards, which it teaches, and therefore oppose any attempt directly, either wittingly or unwittingly, and I say that that, wittingly and unwittingly, because I am not inferring that many seriously concerned people are doing this knowing what they are doing, and yet I am suggesting that there are others who are doing it just as knowingly as if they wrote the books themselves.

I have not found any proclamation by the federal government or any government of this province to indicate that we no longer live in a Jude o-Christian society, and so long as that proclamation is not made I will continue to live my life based on the morals and standards dictated by such a society. Now, lest I omit comment on other influences apparent in the red book reference material, I would like to point out that some of the material is provided by advocates of humanism. This movement, if I can call it that, is a secular religion, which is offi cially recognized by the U.S.

Supreme Court as an athiestic religion, being anti-God, anti-Christ and anti-scripture. Now if there is any doubt in your mind from what I have said - we have a reference, I'll get to that later - there is a reference equating humanism with the other religions. Now this about brings me to full circle in my brief, Mr. Chairman. One of the other concerns I have is that moral standards are not an essential part of the Family Life Program.

Many suggested questions for discussions in the counsellor's guide invoke discussion and comment by the students and they are open-ended, leaving the answers to be arrived at by the students as to whether they are right or wrong. I have not found any suggestion in the teacher's guide book which would indicate that the teacher is to consider good morals.

Enquir ies as to whether morals are being taught in conjunction with Family Life Plan and particularly sex education have been met with replies by people who probably have some authority over this, they say, "Who is to teach morals?" At the most you might say this is a cop-out, I don't know. While it appears that there is a disclaimer by teachers and school board trustees that morals are not taught; they are in fact being taught. As parents, however, we are left to wonder what kind of morals.

Personal experience has revealed that morals are taught by teachers, based on their own particular views, which are not always the same as those of the parents of the child who he is teaching, but do conflict diametrically with the parents morals, which are being taught to the child. I have heard it said that teachers have told parents - and this is hearsay, but I am here to tell you this today, that parents have been told they have no rights. Now whether this is justified or not, I don't know. But if that day is here, Mr. Chairman, I believe that we are in trouble.

I have no evidence that there is any benefit being derived from the Family Life Program in our area, but to the contrary, three medical doctors, that we have spoken to, have indicated that they feel that the Family Life Program is detrimental to the mental and physical health of the child. And I can tell you from personal experience a situation where a child while being interviewed by a psychiatrist was asked whether he had ever had any thoughts of having sexual intercourse with his mother, if you can imagine that, and that child suffered quite a bit over that.

But this is the sort of thing that could come out of these schools, and this is what we are against. In closing I would observe that the areas in which the teacher is expected to be an expert and it is all in there, drugs, behaviour, values modification, and sex education, and all of its ramifications are areas in which I submit requires extensive medical training and knowledge, which even a highly trained medical doctor might not have in a particular field, and yet we are allowing teachers, who we don't know whether they have qualif ication or not, to teach this.

Now this obviously gives rise to a situation which could and perhaps in the past has made guinea pigs of our children by exposing them to experimental methods in the hands of unqualified persons.

Now I recognize the need and desirability of a young person to become aware of his or her anatomical functions in life, but I do not recognize the qualifications of a teacher to adequately deal with this area of education of' our young people, and I question the need for the desensitizing and resensitizing the student to subject him or her to the sex education presently being carried out in our schools. ' Now these two words, I knew they were in here and I tried to find them, but I didn't look at the la st page. I want to perhaps refer you to desensitizing and resensitizing.

Perhaps in a very short way I can explain what they mean here. What they do is they shock you first, so that they take 379

Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 away any sensibility that you have, and then they resensitize you by permissiveness, as I suggested before, so that everything they tell you is fine. lt doesn't matter what your morals or what your reaction was before, it is all accepted by you .

Ju st referring to desensitizing teachers, and this is another book, this is the Family Life Education, a guide for the development of a school program, Curriculum Suppo rt Series, and this is put out by the Province of Manitoba: "Desensitization" - lt says, "Many teachers at the outset are uncomfortably sensitive about some aspects of Family Lif� Education, and feel anxious or embarrassed at the thought of teaching about them. Some have not come to terms with their own sexuality.

Some have had distressing experiences in their own family relations and some feel inadequate because their own related education has been so meagre. A progressively open examination of the intimate areas of sexuality in family relations can develop a familiarity with and an acceptance of topics which once were nervously avoided.

Between the extremes of inhibited avoidance and brazen verbal display, a comfortable combination of explicit openness and tactful modesty can emerge enabling the teacher to talk confidentally about any aspect of Family Life Education." Now referring to resensitization: "When distressing and obstructive sensitivities have been removed or minimized the way is open for the development of new and useful sensitivities.

These include a sensitivity to the various possi ble meanings of sexual behaviour to the sometimes contradictory feelings of people about their relationships with other family members, to the different values and expectat ions of people in different socioeconomic, ethnic, and cultural groups, and to the deeper concern that may underlie a pupil's simple question." There it is, Mr. Chairman, desensitization and resensitization. Now with respect to an answer, I would prefer a program which would involve a qualified medical doctor, the child and the parents of the child.

In this way, the family unit would provide input to the sex education of the child and not perpetuate the present unsatisfactory practice of authorizing a stranger to teach the child within the scope allowed by the present program. Now, I wonder, Mr. Chairman, and I can't answer this, but I'm wondering out loud, what qualifications teachers have to teach this particular program, because I took Psychology in University and Biology in High School before I went into Law. Now I have a Law Degree which may equate to the Teacher's Certificate. Does that now give me authority, qualifications to teach Psychology?

Or Biology? I'm wondering whether the certific ates which teachers are given qualif ies them to teach what this Red Book and the other supporting books allow them to teach without question, because as I said before, it's a carte blanche right to teach what's in there, and unless there's some control over what they're teaching and if they are teaching based on some of the books or the references which I have made to in these books, then we are definitely in trouble. That's what I feel. I think that now is the time to consider, Mr.

Chairman, what we should be doing. hould we allow this family life to be continued, or should it be seriously considered and taken right out of the school. There is a reference in Bill 22, I believe, which allows certain specific courses to be autho rized by the Min ister, and one of them is dealing with medical, health, and so on of the students.

Surely there must be some better way to teach children, if they're going to be taught sex in any way, shape or form in school, there must be a better way than to allow an unqualified person - and 1 say this, unqualified, with all sincerity, because I feel that unless a person has that qualification to teach, then he shou ldn't be teaching it Mr.

Chairman, I could go on here all day as I said, but I would thank you for the time that you have given to consider my brief, and I would be prepared to answer any questions if there are any, and my wife has much material here that she could refer to to relate to the affiliations and backgrounds of some of the resource people referred to in the books which are open to be used by the school. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. McGr egor. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR: Yes, to Mr. Toews or Mrs. Toews through you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm certainly quite aware of that division and the problems that have been before us in this subject for at least two school board elections, one that's on right now. The question is, if you had a preference, would you have it taken right out of the curricu lum, out of the way that there's no option for it to be in, inasmuch as it would cost an enormous lot of money to have qualified teachers, as you are suggesting, to teach this? MR. TOEWS: Yes, that would be the logical sequitur of what I said. If we don't use it and we don't use it because there are no qualified people, then it should be taken out.

And one other question, of course, I had, was, we have no idea what it cost the Department of Education to provide these books or any other related material for this purpose, and what it continues to cost them. And of course, Mr. Chairman, one other thing, and I'm sorry I'm going on like this, but it comes 380

Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 to mind that this book, the counsellor's resource book, does say that the contents of the book can be taught at any time dur ing the school day by any teacher. it's not just a family life program for half an hour or three-quarters of an hour. lt can be taught by any teacher in the school, so that a science teacher can teach sex education to my child, or any other thing that comes within the umbrella of the family life education program. And this is what scares me. MR. McGREGOR: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

The other thing, I must say, I never saw the Red Book until this morning, and the latter pages of that certainly I would not want to see my Grade 4 or 5 year old boy or girl be going into that in any way, shape or form. And the question is then, Mr. Chairman, when you found out about it sort of innocently like I did, did you still continue to have your children go to that division, or did you somehow get around it? · MR. TOEWS: Mr. Chairman, fortunately, all our children have grown up, and at the tail end of their high school education, they were, you might say, out of the system . They were out of the system.

But had we been in a position at that time to know what we know now, which I have said before, I'm sure many parents don't know, I certainly would have taken them right out of that particular course or whatever it was, and made it quite plain that they were not to be taught. We have knowledge of a situation where this was done, a child was taken out of that particular course, and the school offi cials were told that that child was not to be taught this.

The parents were away for some time, when they came back, they found that that child had been put back in and he was su bjected to that very thing that the parents told them they were not to be taught. MR. McGREGOR: Well, that follows up much like a parent that was with one of the delegations Friday last, and that was this lady's real concern that the teacher had got around her child and brought home the whole family life, that she was greatly upset and believed it shouldn't be there. That's all I've got at the moment, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Boyce. MR. J. R. (Bud) BOVCE: Mr.

Chairman, first of all, I want to thank Mr. Toews for coming on this rather delicate matter, and I have a great deal of respect for you having done so, and it's regrettable that more parents don't raise their concerns, albeit even one individual , because it's the only way that a politician, regardless of stripe, can ascertain that which is going on. Mr. Chairman, one thing sticks out in the brief, one of the last sentences in the presentation. "Present unsatisfactory practice of authorizing a stranger to teach the child." But I wonder, the questions I have Mr.

Chairman, I think that is regrettable, because I personally believe that teachers are but extensions of families, and that parents do have rights. But in your research that you presented, and I want to thank you for bringing that sort of thing together, have you done any research on who is involved in the dissemination of pornography? I wonder how many socialists - Communism and socialists are not synonymous in my mind. They may be in others but they're not in mine. How many socialists are involved in the production of pornographic movies, magazines, and the distribution of these?

I ask this question because you mention this whole area as being part of a Communist conspi racy, and I will confess. that there are many groups in our society that try to manipula te us all. But have you done any investigation into the political philosophy behind the dissemination of pornography in our society? Who actually reaps the benefit from the distribution of pornography? For example, I don't think Heffner is a socialist. MR. TOEWS: Are you finished with your question, Mr. Boyce? MR. BOVCE: Yes. MR. TOEWS: If I might, Mr. Chairman,my wife has done much research on this.

She has all the reference and as I said before it has to be concise because there's so much involved. But there is a book which, if you're interested, Mr. Boyce, I would refer you to, is the "Child Seducers" and it's by John Steinbacher. As you can see it's quite a thick book. Now, in there there are many references that I'll refer you to, if you have the time. I realize that a committee looking into such a wide area as you are lo oking into, may not have the time to do this. But I must say that all we can do is to point this out to the committee. We're not equating anybody with anybody else. 381

Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 What we are saying is what we have fou nd. We do know that a chap by the name of Dr. Parsons, has written a well documented book on some of my comments and the excerpts that I've referred to are all in there for your perusal, and that's why we provide you with the book so that you could judge for yourself what is being said.

And if you have questions as to who is related to who, then all I can do is say that we'd be pleased to meet with anybody after this committee meeting, at our own expense - we're doing this today at our own expense - but I realize, and I think you realize that we can't spend all day on this particular topic, so that we'd be pleased to discuss this with you further. lt's not a su bject that can be dealt with in an hour and as I say, there are references that we have; there are references to people who are, as we said, anti-Christian, anti-God, anti-Scripture who are called Hu manists, who are saying that the human, or the person, is the most important thing.

You know, look after the person, do what you think is right, if it feels good, do it. This is the type of philosophy that I think is being espoused by these writers, and we have to refer to these people. Whether they're communists, whether they're socialists or whether they're anything else, I don't know, but their comments are there and that's why we made them.

And as I said, I think it's perhaps high time that - and I'm not suggesting a witch hunt by any means - but I think it's high time for people in authority to consider some of the aspects that we've raised: How our children and how our society is being affected by views, thoughts and philosophies of - in this case particularly - Americans? We have no thing presented by Canadians and that's why we're referring to these books. Certainly we're going to continue our investigation and find everything out we can about what's happening.

But in answer to your question, I can't answer how many, if you want to say free enterprisers are benefitting from these kind of books, but certainly there are many organizations referred to there: Elysium is a pornographic pu blisher. There's so many of them I can't recall them offhand but they're all on the list. I thank you for raising this question but I can't answer it right now. MR.

BOYCE: Well, I raise the question because it is rather important and there are some organizations which realize hhat the only way to deal with some of these problems is to bring economic sanctions against those people who continually go in a direction they don't agree with. For example, the United Church got rid of their stock in Falconbridge because they disagreed with some of their policies. But, nevertheless, if we wanted to attribute motives and colour the whole thing, I would colour it blue, not red. MR. TOEWS: Well, Mr.

Boyce, I didn't want to say too much about it and I won't name names, but there is somebody in Winnipeg , who is in a pretty influential position, who supp orts Planned Parenthood, which Planned Parenthood su pports many of the things that we have indicated we're opposed to here. As I say, I could be here all morning and we could talk about this, but I'm sure that the committee has other things, and as I say we'd be pleased to discuss this further with you or even provide you with information so that you could follow it up yourself. MR. BOYCE: Well, Mr.

Toews, we have nothing more important before us in Manitoba at the present time in my judgment, than the education of our children. But the rules of the committee are such that we don't enter a debate, all I'm doing is asking questions relative to your brief. I would like an opportunity to discuss some of these concerns.

When you mentioned in an aside that you took some psychology at university and then you went over and took a degree in law, what makes you suggest that you're any less competent than the medical profession, which is in a similar situation to yourself, and they take a smattering of psychology when most of their professional attention in getting a licence to practise medicine is devoid in psychology? MR. TOEWS: I use psychology as an exale, Mr. Boyce. Certainly that is tied in with what we're saying we're opposed to.

The medical aspect of it is what is most important, I think, to have a psychologist tell a child something about medicine, which he may not be qualif ied to do. I was using that analogy to say that just because I took a course in psychology didn't qualif y me to teach psychology. What I'm saying is that a teacher who has received a degree in teaching and as a concomitant to his education and teaching, read a book by a couple of psychologists or doctors saying this is the way you should teach, that's the way you should teach, doesn't necessarily qualif y him to teach psychology.

But what I'm basically concerned about, and of course we don't want to cloud the issue, it's sex education at school with all the ramifications which includes psychology, mind-bending if you want, or imposing moral values .. and judgments on children through the teacher 382

Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 who may or may not be qualified to impose those. And when I say "stranger" , I mean stranger, not to the child because obviously that teacher becomes more of a - if you want to call it a meer of the family to that child than the parents themselves do because they spend most of their waking days with that teacher. I am speaking of a stranger as being a stranger to the parents, not to the child. MR. BOYCE: Well, Mr. Chairman, I understand that of which he speaks but nevertheless I find it difficult. If I was in your division I would be no stranger to you. MR.

TOEWS: We aren't now, Mr. Boyce, and I wou ldn't have been if I had known what was in these books at the beginning. That's my point. MR. BOYCE: Well, that's the only way the system can react is if the parents advise the teachers if they're pleased or displeased. But nevertheless, Mr. Chairman, I notice in your supporting documents that you present to us, that you include a pamphlet from Pro-Media Foundation Incorporated. MR. TOEWS: Yes. MR. BOYCE: And that organization equates gay rights and humanistic sex education with ERA.

Is that the position - the Equal Rights amendment which is before the United States people at the present time is equated with gay rights? MR. TOEWS: I don't know whether it's equated with it.

What they're saying is that these organizations which - and I think we'll have to agree, at least in my own mind - these organizations referred to by you in that pamphlet are organizations which, in more than a sense, ' they are diametrically oppo sed to the values which I think, in a Jude o-Christian society are important, that homosexuality is something that is not acceptable. lt may be treatable, it may be other things, but to teach in the schools that it is an alternative lifestyle, to suppor t a young child who may have those tendencies when he is in young grades, to say that that is acceptable in our society, I think, is going to undermine it, that 's what we're concerned about.

MR. BOYCE: Well, perhaps, Mr. Toews, you know, I've· a tendency to pronounce that name Toews, I don't know why. MR. TOEWS: I'll answer either way, Mr. Boyce. MR. BOYCE: But, in the sentence, in the particular sentence, and, you know, when people include something in the same sentence ... the sentence says: "most U.S. citizens are not aware that hard-core pornography, Hu manistic sex education, the Gay Rights Movement, feminism, and the equal ·rights Equal Rights Amendment", so they are equating all of those things in a way. And, if I could focus, perhaps, on feminism. And, briefly, Mr.

Chairman, if I may, to give an understanding to the question, I see feminism, in our society, as a struggle for women to get out of this economic coersion that they've had, for exale, up to 50 years ago they weren't even persons, that type of thing, under the law.

You know, I'm not trying to shift focus to take away from your argument because I respect your basic argument, but nevertheless, for politicians to deal with some of these difficult questions, when we put in the struggle for women in our society to have a fair share of what goes on, and the Equal Rights Amendment is part of that struggle in the United States, to equate that with some of the detrimental things which may happen relative to sex education, do you think that is serving your cause? MR. TOEWS: Well, Mr. Chairman, Mr.

Boyce, I think that what is happening in those comments is that he is saying - and as I said at the outset, because I took some psychology before I went into law, I don't want to be considered arguing psychology or anything like that, and I don't want to speak for Dr.

Parsons, I think he has been adequately documented and has his qualifications set out in his letter, but what I do believe is that what is being said in there ties in with what he is saying, that there are these underlying motives in these organizations which, as I said before, is like a motherhood resolution to say, yes, we think women should be paid for this and paid for that. I don't disagree with that because I believe, and you may not believe it, but I believe it, that since I was married it's been a 50150 proposition with my wife.

And I b13lieve it not because I am a feminist, but I believe it because I think marriage is a partnership which should be shared equally. 383

Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 So, to have me discourse with you on this particular subject probably wou ldn't be to your benefit or mine because my motives in saying a lot of things may not be what Dr. Parsons's motives would be. So that , in one sense, I could say, Yes, I supp ort equal rights for women; but I don't necessarily support those people who are doing it for ulterior reasons or motives. And, I think, what he is saying there is he's equating some of these movements with what we have said tod ay we are opposed to.

As the front door is closed they're coming in the back way and they're using these things. Hu.manists, whoever they may be, are supporting this type of advancement of equal rights amendment; men are too, but then religion, humanism, communism, socialism, whatever, is not strictly delegated to men or women. They have a right to their own feelings as well so that, as I say, when I say I appreciate that a woman should have some rights I am not an ERA supp orter because of what I know of the supp ort that is being given.

I don't know whether that answers your question and but, as I say, I don't feel qualif ied to enter into a philosophical or psychological discourse with you on it. MR. BOYCE: Mr. Toews, you're just as capable as anyone around this table, and if we got into that kind of discussion I don't think we would differ too much, except when you start rhyming off Hu manist, communist, socialist; I wou ldn't stop there, you see, I would go on Hu manist, communist, socialist, liberal, conservative, you see, I would go through the whole spectrum I wou ldn't show my bias by stopping at MR.

TOEWS: All right, if I may, go on record in agreeing with you, Mr. Boyce. MR. BOYCE: Mr. Chairman, perhaps, because of the attention Mr. Toews and his wife have paid to this particular problem they could express their opinion on just how we can deal with this sentence, "present unsatisfactory practice of authorizing a stranger to teach the child". Isn't it the case, Mr. Toews, that what creeps into the educational system are pu blic responses to what they see as a need.

If the children were coming into the educational system with an understanding of what I feel sure, from just listening to you talk and everything, that your children would arrive in the school situation with a fair sense of values which they could choose later on in life to emulate or otherwise. But, as someone who has considerable more psychology than just ... I have a Master's Degree in Psychology, which doesn't make me a guru; all I learned is I don't know very much. But, nevertheless, I, for example, was faced my last year in teaching, in '69, with three teenage pregnancies, as a counsellor.

Now, if the parents were dealing with this child there wou ldn't be any public need. So, when we get into the problem of strangers, and they were strangers to you until this situation arose, what can we do in this important area? Not just relative to sex education in the schools, but the whole darn developmental process, what do we have to do to our system to change this? MR. TOEWS: Well, of course, I went through the school system when reading, writing and arithmetic were the basics. I'm glad to say that I managed to get this far in life without too many problems, Mr.

Boyce, so I think perhaps that is one of the things, to maybe emphasize the basics first of all. And then dealing with the other matters, as I've very shortly and briefly suggested, some form of program which involves a medical doctor, the child and the parents. I agree with you that this is happening all too often, that there are children, especially female school-age children, who become pregnant. And, unfortuna tely, maybe the family is the last to know.

But, I know of one case - you're speaking from experience, I must speak from experience myself - I know of one particular case where a child was pregnant, the parents stood right behind them and I think because of that a better relationship developed between the parents and the child , which perhaps maybe should have been there in the first place. I have no quick answer as to how this could be done. You can't legislate to say that people must teach their children morals in terms of today's society and try to prevent a su bversion of these morals in school or whatever, because it's going to happen.

There is no way you can legislate that, and that's why we're here today to present our brief to you, to express our feelings and concerns of the way things are going and I would hope that particularly Bill 22, I believe there is a provision in there that allows the Mi nister to provide for a course - or special courses. Now surely, this might be a better alternative than - sorry, it's not 48( 1), it's another one - it's a provision which allows the Min ister to provide certain cou rses dealing with health, physical health of the children, and even to the extent of providing it for employees of the school.

Perhaps there is something that can be done this way which would be more beneficial to society, and when 1 say society 1 mean all the things that people generally feel are good morally, and that sort of thing, to provide for a course like this which could be conducted through the school. Now, as 1 say, I don't know what the cost of these books are to the school; I would be interested 384

Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 to know. But if it is costing the Department of Education money, perhaps it might be money well spent to consider alternatives to this type of a program, where the instruction and education is carried on under the guidance of a more qualified person to teach this sort of thing, to advise them on venereal disease, to advise them on other thi ngs sexual. But, as I say, the way this book reads, it's an open invitation to allow teachers to teach them whatever they feel that that child should be taught, which, in a sense, is based on that particular teacher's morals.

Now, getting back to the question of pregnancy and that sort of thing, I can also tell you from our own experience, of a child that we know, who almost graduated or was in grade eleven, from a comment made by a teacher who is known to be at the very least, an agnostic. After this child had been raised in a family home which tried to indicate what values there were in living, moral values and so forth; this child was told by the teacher, well, you know, I do what I want, I eat, live and be merry, for tomo rrow we die, that sort of thing.

And from that day on, that child, and I can say this from my own experience, that that child suffered a living hell on earth. Fortunately, that's changed but. .. MR. BOVCE: Well, your last comment that you made, is regrettable.

When the Min ister of Education, regardless of politic al stripe is dealing with this complex problem and he is advised by people very competent - you know even in the medical profession you have disagreements in the treatment; and when the Min ister of Education, the governments, politicians are faced with increasing evidence that out of 25 youngsters in the school system at the present time, 15 of them will end up with some kind of emotional problems. I'm going a little bit broader than just the sex education thing.

Fifteen of them will have emotional difficulties of some kind because of the milieu in which they are growing up, which is different than when you and I grew up. If we don't some way get people to give the government and the politicians the feedback before some of these things get too far down the road - because we have to experiment because we don't know. I know personally of the difficulty; I'm getting much flack and still there was some representation made on the program that I was involved with, was Buildin g the Pieces Together.

And I make the judgment and I assure you I'm not out to de-christianize the world. I happen to be personally of christian persuasion, albeit when I took the oath as a Mi nister, I put the palm of my hand on both books, but that's my bias. But as we move down the road, if we wait for the profess ionals, the technicians, and everyone else, to give feedback to governments, too many of these specific incidents to which you refer, occur.

And one of the things that's bothered all members of the comm ittee is the fact that we've had some 58 representations from various organizations trying to do a good job, but you're only two of a handful of parents, so how can we - because it's a monolith of a system - I think it's a third of the budget the Min ister is responsible for. How can we do something to get the people excited about education or the necessity of telling the politicians all across the spectrum what we should be doing and how we can do it as far as making teachers part of the community. MR. TOEWS: Mr.

Boyce, I would hope that after today, and I presume with some coverage here, that we will not be only some of the silent majority that are coming out of the woodwork. You ask how it's to be done. Many things have been done by one person before. People have said, I'm going to do th is, are you behind me? Other people said yes. But then when you're at the crucial point, you look behind and you just see how far they are behind you.

Now, they might be out of sight, I don't know, but I think that this sort of thing and as I said at the outset, we have given much thought to this, there has been much research done on this. And while my wife is sitting down there beside me, don't let it confuse you that she doesn't know what I'm talking about and that she doesn't know a lot more than what I'm talking about. There's been a lot of research done and we are prepared, as 1 said, to go on record, if anybody's interested, I think that's the way we're going to bring this to the pu blic's attention and to the government's attention.

And going back to one question, or one statement that you made which does concern me to some extent, you did say that you have to experiment, that there is a need for this. What concerns me there is when you start experimenting with young minds, that's what bothers me. And as I say, that book, all those books, deal with that sort of thing. I don't know what the answer is; I wish I did. I probably wou ldn't be standing here if I did. MR. BOVCE: Well, Mr. Chairman, I share Mr.

Toews' concern with my use of the word "experiment" because I sure don't mean chasing kids through a maze like a bunch of mice or anything else; it's a very sensitive area, and this is why I'm asking the committee's indulgence whether we pursue this a bit because if people aren't aware of the sensitivity and they offer the advice, not just destructive advice, but constructive advice on how to approach this particular problem, which is but a manifestation of many problems in the area in helping our youngsters to develop, not just 385

Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 to be incu lcated with a certain amount of information. Mr. Chairman, I won't impose upon the committee any longer, but tell Mr. and Mrs. Toews that even Moses had to have the people hold his arms up so he could prevail. Politicians, if they can't get people to hold their arms up, regardless of what their political stripe, are not going to solve this problem. MR. TOEWS: Mr. Boyce, I hope we can help the government cross the Red Sea. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hanuschak. Mr. Brown. MR. ARNOLD BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank Mr. and Mrs.

Toews for coming out today. They have expressed very much the concerns of the particular constituency which I represent, which is Rhineland. As a result of this particular program getting into the schools and so on, we've had a number of private schools which have been established in my area, and this has been somewhat of a concern of mine, and I think that there is a lot more that needs to be discussed in this particular area. We have really only touched on one small aspect of it, which is Education. There are many more aspects that I would like to go into with Mr. and Mrs.

Toews, and I hope to be able to meet with them over lunch, if at all possible, and discuss some of these aspects, because there are very many people concerned in other areas in health and social development, for instance. I would like to see us get together and form some kind of an organization and maybe come to some kind of consensus as to how best to deal with this particular problem. MR. TOEWS: I would be pleased to meet with the Member for Rhineland, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hanuschak. MR. BEN HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, did Mr.

Toews indicate, very briefly indicate what other topics does the family life education program deal with? Or does it deal with topics other than sex education? MR. TOEWS: Well, I did mention, Mr. Hanuschak, that it deals with drugs, the pros and cons; it does, as I said, refer to values as well.

I can only refer to maybe the ones th(it come to mind. lt says it creates what you might call a division in the child's mind; it says one of his friends was caught stealing, or at least he was stealing and the police had set a trap for him and over the dinner table he heard that the police were doing this, unk nown to the boy that was stealing. The question is, should you tell the boy that this is happening, or should you let the police catch him in the trap? I guess this, in a sense is a moral question, but you can see that the question asked is rather difficult for the child to answer.

If he is a real good friend of this kid, he's torn between saying, you'd better not go and steal there because they've got a trap set for you. Then he'll go some other place. But if he tells the child that the trap has been set, then he has filched. He's a dirty guy. Either way, he's damned if he does one thing or he's damned if he doesn't. And these are some of the things that are raised. Surely they deal with morals in that sense.

But also it deals with drugs, it lists all the kinds of drugs there are, tells you what the effects are, I have a list of them here, but as I said, I could have gone into it at the outset, but it was just merely a reference to. This is taken from Grade 8 Health, which I supp ose now would come under the Family Life Education.

But some of the hazards they point out are: (1) drugs must be taken in increasing doses; (2) addiction, where only aim in life is to find the next dose; (3) severe withdrawal symptoms, sweat, shakes, gets chills, nausea, abdominal and leg cramps; (4) shortens lifespan by 15 to 20 years; (5) usually in trouble with family and the law, addiction often leads to crime, psychological dependence on drugs, pure doses can result in death. So it tell tells them what they are, and then says, well if you do that, this is what's going to happen.

But I would hazard a guess that even by telling them what's going to happen, once they've known what it's all about, they're going to wonder whether maybe they should try it or not. Because they'r e going to be su bject to peer pressure. We know ou rselves that it's present in schools. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I would think that Mr. Toews and I are probably products of an education system of approximately the same period in time. Perhaps Mr. Toews is a few years younger than I am, I would think. Anyway, approximately.

And I have the very distinct recollection of, as part of the health program at that time, being taught about the evils, or the 386

Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 bad effects of the excessive consumption of alcohol and of smoking. Do you feel that at that time because we were taught that that motivated and encouraged some of us to become excessive smokers and alcoholics simply because we were taught about the bad effects of smoking and alcohol back in the 30s? MR. TOEWS: Mr.

Hanuschak, I must say that I was a smoker at the time and long before the admonition was espoused by the federal government under law - whether it's law or not, but they have a little statement on a package of cigarettes that says, continued use would endanger your health. I smoked long before that came out and I have quit for ten years now. But I must say that whether we were told, when I was a high school student, whether we were told smoking was bad for your health or not, we did it. lt didn't make any difference.

And I'm suggesting to you that by telling students what these drugs are - I don't know whether they tell you where you can get them, but they certainly tell you what they are - and then telling you that these are the hazards of using them, that's not going to stop them from using them. You 're sayi ng that, there's a red light there, you can't cross that when the red light is showing. That doesn't necessarily mean they're not going to cross. You see it happen all the time. So in that respect, surely I recall being told that smoking and drinking affects your health. There's no question about it. MR.

HANUCHAK: But you seem to differentiate between the two, Mr. Toews. You say, as far as you're concerned, and I suppo se others of our generation, the fact that the hazards of smoking and drinking were pointed out to us that that did not necessarily discourage anyone from smoking or drinking, but now you're saying, with reference to drugs, that by teaching pupils about the ill effects of drugs that that would in fact, encourage them to experiment with various drugs. I fail to see the difference.

If education of a similar kind had no effect one way or the other on us, why should it on the 15 or 16 year old, or 12 or 13 year old in 1979? MR. TOEWS: Well, I suppose I could try and answer it this way, Mr. Hanuschak. I remember when I smoked, I knew where I could get the cigarettes. They used to sell little four-cigarette packages or four in a package, five, sorry, because I couldn't afford any more we bought the small ones.

But I have to admit that until all the evidence of drugs came out, I have to admit that I didn't know where you could get marijuana and what the leaves looked like and how to use it, and I am suggesting that is what is in there. That tells you _now where you can get it. So that in that sense I would submit that it does encourage a closer look at these things by the students who may have never had any thoughts of even considering using them before. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, one further question. I note that Mr.

Toews makes repeated reference to some form of association between sex education and the Communist Party. In fact, he makes reference to a statement made by someone in Dusseldorf 60 years ago, that this is part of a Communist plot to corrupt the you ng, etc., get them away from religion and get them interested in sex, and I would suspect that, you know, if that is part of its plot as espoused 60 years ago, and 1 wonder whether Mr.

Toews' extensive research has indicated or has shown whether this in fact did occur in the countries which had become Communist or that now have a Communist government or have adopted a Communist government since 1919, because in 1919 there was essentially only one country having Communist government Today it is China, Cuba and a whole block of eastern European nations. Was this sort of a plan, plot, a scheme, used by a Communist Party anywhere in the world to acquire power through sex education and is it being used today to remain in power? MR. TOEWS: I don't know how to answer that question, Mr.

Hanuschak. lt is like asking a person, "When did you stop beating your wife?" If he says, "I haven't," it means he is still beating her, and if he says, "Oh, last week," well then he admits that he has been beating her. To answer that, the only way I can say it is I am not privy to what is happening over there, because as I understand it there is very little information comes out of there but what they want us to know. We certainly know there is much dissidence over there through books that have been written, but I can't answer your question.

All we can talk about, 1 guess, is what is happening here and perhaps that is one of the main reasons why we are here, to make sure that we do what we can do to make sure that whatever happens in our education system happens to the best because we have put forth our endeavours and efforts to make it happen. So I can't an;>wer your question. MR. HANUSCHAK: So the only authority for that type of statement is what the Canadian Intelligence Publ ication says in Flesherton, Ontario, or Mr. Gostick in Winnipeg? 387

Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 MR. TOEWS: Well, there is also a book, as I said before, "The Child Seducers", which I would urge you to look at if you have time. There is certainly reference to the philosophies and the people who authored the books that are being relied on in these guidance books and the educ ation for sexuality.

Unfortunately, as I said before, we have no Canadian books, only the pub lication that you just referred to, which, whether it is a voice in the wilderness, I don't know - certainly many people are aware of what is happening because of that book and we can only look at it in terms of what it is saying and try and find out whether it is true. So far we have not found any evidence that it isn't true. MR. HANUSCHAK: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further questions? Mr. Boyce. MR. BOYCE: Mr.

Chairman, you used to be able to get, for three drink bottles you used to be able to get a package of Turret cigarettes and a bubble gum. MR.TOEWS: I don't remember the bubble gum, Mr. Boyce. MR. BOYCE: Well, you had an extra cent left after you took the three bottles back. But also, Mr. Chairman, I hope my smoking here doesn't predetermine me to burn in the hereafter.

I guess why some of us react to the subtle inference, not by yourself, I am not suggesting that, but nevertheless the suggestion that with the hammer and sickles around the churches that we as a group are about to take over the churches and other things. The only reason I wanted to ask a question at this time, Mr. Chairman, is that I hope that in your presentations, and I share Mr. Brown's concerns, that you advise us in your think ing also, because there is a distinct possibility that there will be a change of government in a few years. That is an apolitical statement. MR.

TOEWS: I'm sorry, is that a statement or is that a question, Mr. Boyce? MR. BOYCE: Well, I wou ldn't expect you to comment on that non-political .. I\II R. BROWN: lt is wishful thinking. MR. BOYCE: Mr. Brown says it is wishful thinking and everybody is wishing it was sooner rather than later. But, Mr. Toews, when Mr. Brown suggests that you have lunch, I am not trying to get Mr. Brown to buy me lunch, but I am just suggesting if you wou ld, that you advise us in your think ing also, because it is not just a matter of informing the Conservative Party, it is a matter concerning all politicians. MR. TOEWS: Mr.

Boyce, if I might close this by saying that we feel that this problem is apolitical, it is something that involves us all and that is what we are mostly concerned about. If it means that we can use politicians to get our views across, fine, but certainly after all, politicans are the ones that are going to determine whether this stays in the course of education or not.

But we are concerned, not from a political point of view, but from - well, I am sure you understand our point of view on this in terms of what is happening to the morals of our children, the things that are or aren't in the school curriculum and so on. So I assure you any suggestion that it is strictly political, you can rest assured that it is not. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hanuschak. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I want to make absolutely certain that I understand Mr. Toews.

He is saying that this is, this matter is apolitical, but in his brief he did make repeated reference to the Family Life Education Program being promoted by a political party, namely the Communist Party, and is he now changing his position somewhat from that put forth in his brief. MR. TOEWS: I am sure you didn't mean to put words in my mouth , Mr. Hanuschak. What we said was that the books which are being relied on were authored by people who have been known to have these affiliations.

Now I would suggest that that is a far cry from saying that Communism is doing what you say I said it is doing, because if that is the case then, I don't know whether there is a Hu manist government anywhere in the world, but then by inference you are saying that there is a Hum anist government some place that is doing the same thing, and I didn't say that. 388

Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 I am just saying that we have to look at the values and the motives of these people, and what we are suggesting and hope will happen is that the Committee will look into the values of these people that have been writing books which are being used as reference books. MR. HANUSCHAK: Now, I am sure that, you know, the area of Family Life Education is probably as broad as it is long and covers a whole range of topics and issues. Are you also suggesting that all books found in our libraries, in our school libraries written by known Commun ists should be burned? MR.

TOEWS: Mr. Hanuschak, I hope that you are not trying to equate our presentation with the presentation that may have been made with respect to books on any curric ulum. Our submission has not referred to that in any way because the books that we are referring to are books that can be used by the teacher for teaching. We are not talking about books that are available to students to read, that is another subject that we are not prepared to discuss today, although we probably could if you wanted.

We didn't come prepared to discuss that and I certainly don't think from the education that I got that every book that is abhorrent or doesn't appeal to my sense of dignity and values should be burned. No, I am not saying that at all. I am saying that they should be left there so that people can, when they are mature enough, and that is different than dealing with sex education. MR. HANUSCHAK: I am sure Mr. Toews would agree that various courses of instruction extend to beyond Family Life Education, they have a bearing upon a student's formulation of standards of values and morals.

I would suggest that even the teaching of History may have such an effect. Are you then suggesting that, say in teaching History, which may have a very profound effect on the student's development, that in teaching it a teacher should refrain from making reference to anything written by Karl Marx or by Lenin? MR. TOEWS: No, I suppose you are talking about secondary education or are you talking about. Pardon? MR. HANUSCHAK: Well, at whatever level that, you know, the teaching of History of the U.S.S.R., or of Communism may be found in the school program. MR. TOEWS: Well, I must say, Mr.

Hanuschak, I took History, or they called it Social Studies when I took it, and I found it very enlightening in terms of who did what and why they did it and what happened, and no, I don't say that any reference to that should be taken out, because it is part of History . But if I may ask you a question, are you equati ng that type of education with books on the history of sex to say, well, because we have written this book on if you want to call it sexology or whatever, that because it is a history then it shouldn't be thrown out either. I don't know.

I certainly don't agree that anything in history should be covered up, because it is a part of history, it is a part of what has happened and it shows people what happens when certain things are done. MR. HANUSCHAK: So you feel that having read or having been exposed to writings of Communists in your study of history did not in any way corrupt you, but if anything were written on the topic of sex by a Commun ist, that may corrupt the individual? MR. TOEWS: 1 guess I would have to agree with you, Mr.

Hanuschak, if the person that was being educated from that book didn't know what that person was and it was put forward as being an acceptable point of view by the teacher. Then we get right back again to the morals of the teacher, whether the teacher says, "Well, it doesn't really matter whether I believe Marx or I believe whoever, we will let the child decide that." And to equate that argument with sex, I think is fallacious. I think sex is something that you can't equate the study of history with. MR.

HANUSCHAK: Would you have the same concern about the party affiliation of authors of textbooks in any other su bject areas? Perhaps the Min ister of Education ought to, in appointing his curriculum committees and retaining people to prepare instruction materials, should satisfy himself as to the politic al affi liation of every teacher who is involved with preparation or with every individual who is involved in the. preparation of education m�terials? MR. TOEWS: Well, I think, Mr. Hanuschak, you are asking me to tell the government what to do.

I am not in the government and I think I am well aware that appointments perhaps are not made on that basis, whatever political party may be in, but I can't answer that question. I wouldn't be 389

Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 prepared to suggest to any government, other than what we have suggested today, through this Committee, that you look at the areas of our concern - that is all we ask you to do, to look at the concerns that we have and if they are valid, fine, we would like to know. If they are not, and it can be shown that our children are not being affected by it, then the people should know. As I say, we could go on indefinitely discussing the relative merits of whether books should be burned or whether they shouldn't. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, just a final question.

Now, you did indicate that you have concerns about the authors of some of the family life and sex education materials. Now, would you have less concern about any education materials prepared in relation to family life education if it were written by a member of the Conservative or the Liberal party than you would if it were written by a member of the Communi st party? MR. TOEWS: What we're concerned about, Mr.

Hanuschak - and I guess it just so happens that the people that we have researched who are probably diametrically opposed to what we feel perhaps is the moral posture in school - we would like to see anybody who is qualified to do this, to make comment, to make observation, and make those observations to the Legislature, or a committee, or whatever.

But, our main concern right now is the qualif ications, and if books certainly contain material which are written by people who have the medical background and the psychological background, if you want to call it, and that is presented by people of the same quality, as opposed to people who are maybe considered to be jack of all trades - and I want to say this, that we are not con demning all teachers. Certainly I know many fine teachers.

Our concern is that while those many fine teachers may be admonished to do these sort of things they are doing something which we feel is opposed to the morals which we feel should be imposed - they're not imposed but made known to the child. So that, no, the books that you referred to, or if they were written by a Conservative or a Liberal or a New Democrat, would be as acceptable if they contain what values in our view should be taught in the school. Now, I'm not suggesting that, as it seems to be coming out - I hope, Mr. Hanuschak and Mr.

Boyce, that you are not taking offence to me calling anybody a communist in this room, because I notice that, as Mr. Boyce noticed, in our presentation we didn't say "socialists ", we said "communis ts and Hu manists". Now, I'm not the one that's equating these things. MR. HANUSCHAK: Well, I'm sure that in a democratic society wherein one has the freedom to belong to whatever political party one wishes, members of the Communist party likely take great pride in being members of that party, and they do not in any way consider that to be defamatory.

You do indicate that you would prefer a program which would involve a qualified medical doctor and if the most qualified medical doctor in your community were a member of the Communist party, would you approve the involvement of that particular doctor? MR. TOEWS: Mr. Hanus chak I think, under the circums tances, I would say no, because our suggestion is that we have the child, we have the doctor, and we have the parents. Perhaps I might be concerned if it just involved the child and the doctor. MR.

HANUSCHAK: So you would not approve of the involvement of a doctor who is a member of the Communist party, even though he may be the most . qualified in terms of training and experience and expertise? MR. TOEWS: Mr. Hanuschak, I would prefer to deal in positives and not negatives. You were asking me whether 1 would, or wou ldn't, approve. What I am saying is what we would like is this, a positive approach to this, not a negative.

And I would prefer to stay with the fact that we would like to see a qualified medical person, the parents and the child, and that way the parents would have some control, and who knows, maybe they even may learn something thems elves. MR. HANUSCHAK: An even if a doctor were a member of the Communist party you would have no objection to that, you know, looking at in positive terms? MR. TOEWS: 1 would say no, because if he is qualified in the profession of a doctor then he should know whereof what he is speaking.

And I would say that as long as the parents are there then any apparent attempt, or overt attempt to deal with things other than what the family plan is sup posed to deal with, then the parents would be there to take whatever action or say whatever they had to do to prevent this. So that in that way I would prefer to take a positive approach. lt is certainly 390

Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 better than the way it is right now, because a teacher, whether he's a commu nist, whether he's a Conservative or whether he's a Liberal, or whatever, whether he's a New Democrat, he is still going to indicate to that child what his views are. lt doesn't matter whether he tries not to it is going to come out in the very way he approaches things. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes. I believe, Mr.

Toews, indicated that he finds it difficult to obtain information as to what is happening in the area of education, and I supp ose in other areas, from countries which have a Commun ist government. Well, let's get back to home, to Canada, within which the Commun ist party is a recognized party. Is Mr. Toews aware of any overt action or campc,cign by the Commun ist Party of Canada to promote sex education with a view to expanding its membership and str engthening its position in Canada? · MR. TOEWS: Mr.

Chairman, I don't know about the federal scene, but I do know that Planned Parenthood is an organization which is associated with many other organizations which supports sex education. And I do know, and I purp osely avoided any reference to this, but I do know that there is a person in Winnipeg who is in charge of the Planned Parenthood - well it's not Planned Parenthood but it espouses, or approves, of planned parenthood - and she is the head of that particular area in the Mount Carmel Clinic. MR. HANUSCHAK: Now, you know, let's get this clear. Is it the head of the Planned Parenthood organization who . MR.

TOEWS: No, it's an organization, as I understand it, that supports planned parenthood. MR. HANUSCHAK: Now, Mr. Toews indicated that he is not familiar with what is going on in the federal scene. Well, let's look at the provincial scene, and again, I will ask you, Mr. Toews, are you aware of any overt action, any campaign by the Manitoba

section of the Communist party in promoting sex education with a view to strengthening its position and expanding its membership in the Province of Manitoba, with that aim in mind to strengthen its own position that this is going to be looked upon as part of a Commun ist plot? MR. TOEWS: No, I can't say that Mr. Hanuschak, and, as I said, I can't at the outset - and I suppose I should refer you to what I said that I am n ot qualified to debate this particular aspect.

You may want to debate it but I would sooner not debate it with you because I can't debate it at this particular stage, and I can't say that there is a plan to do this. But, if you want my opinion, and my opinion is that it's never done this way anyway. MR. HANUSCHAK: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Boyce. MR. BOYCE: Mr. Chairman, first of all I can't answer for Mr. Hanuschak.

I raised the question, being equated with a Communi st because of an election campaign in 1973 in which my opponent tried to go through the district in which I've lived for 40 years calling me a Communist, equating me to the Commun ists and some of the other experiences. But, I too, would rather be positive than negative because, I think, that of which you speak is more important than political considerations, the whole educational process. I've said it umpteen times; if I keep saying it maybe somebody will believe it. I know the Mini ster believes me.

But in your discourse you prompt a question, I guess it arises out of a program on American television last night with the concerns of the Coptic church in Florida being involved with marijuana as being built into their religious practice. Another brief that was presented to us in another area referred to the non-sectarianism of our schools, and to make my point, Mr.

Chairman, as a product of this educational system where I feel, by and large, the system has been non-sectarian in that the presentation of history they tried to get a background in a relative non-sectarian way so that we grew up knowing who Calvin was, and Zwingli, and Henry VIII. lt is regrettable that there wasn't more put in the system so more of wou ld, at that time, have been familiar with the Anabaptist movement.

But one of the things that concerns me, from a constituency standpoint, is that we'ye had a great influx over the la st 10-15 years of peoples from other parts of the world who haven't been raised in the Jude o-Christian tradition - I'm thinking primarily of an influx of some better than 15 ,000 Philippine people, a goodly percentage of which are of the Catholic faith. But, nevertheless, there are others; there's Shintos and Buddhi sts and others. So that when we are talking about education, in the broader sense, 391

Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 in trying to build an understanding of people we've had the suggestion that the school system be totally - my suggestion was asectarian - without any reflection of the Manitoba mosaic, as we have here.

Where could your politicians - and politician isn't a dirty word in my language, I'm proud of being a politician - how can your politicians, once again, pressure the people to advise us, in no uncertain terms in some cases, how we can address ou rselves to, not just the thinner slice of the loaf of bread, but the whole question of helping to develop our younger people so that they understand the mosaic, the milieu in which they live in the moral sense. The moral, not a particular moral, but the question of the necessity of people believing in something, I would suggest.

How can we do this in a non-sectarian way because everyone would agree that what we believe has more effect on our operation within a lifestyle than anything which we intellectualize, so how can we serve a function but yet not do a disservice to those whom we disagree? MR. TOEWS: I wish I had an easy answer for that Mr. Boyce.

I don't suppo se there is any ultimate answer to any question, but I feel that perhaps this is a start, something like this, and if we've done nothing else but to bring our concerns to the attention of the Legislature - I'm not talking about the government, I'm talking about the Legislature - then, and if something is done or the concern is shown by the Legislature, then it's really up to the Legislature to provide an answer, I su ppose, by doing exactly what we are doing today, to get input. Now, obviously the Legislature is not going to do anything on my brief. That's No. 1.

If they did anything on it, it would have to be justified. But 3, if they did do something because it was justified they would have to do it based on the research that's available to the Legislature. So that to answer your question, I wish I had an easy answer, but I would say that again that this is a start and that perhaps we could have more input rather than a skip here and a skip there saying we're going to have a meeting on this, anybody who's interested comes out.

So you get five people who come out, don't know what it's about and go back home and still don't know what it's about, then the officials say, "Well, we had a meeting and everybody's agreed to this so let's do it." I think that's the problem, and I think that's the problem you're addressing yourself to. How do you make people know what's involved? How do you get them concerned and interested? Maybe that's a psychistrist's problem, I don't know, a qualified psychiatrist. MR. BOYCE: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm glad Mr. Toews agrees with me that there's a differentiation between the Legislature and the government.

I'm a traditionalist, in fact I'm even a monarchist. But my colleague from St. Vital says I shouldn't apologize and I really don't. But in asking these kind of - is that correct English? - this kind of question, I hope to just re-use this committee to reinforce and underline and perhaps provoke some thought.

My 10 years experience, generally, suggests that governments in many areas move by default rather than by design and if they don't get some pressure from the people - and it's really got nothing to do with the political party system within our legislative process, which Churchill admits is - if 1 may - he says, "it's a hell of a system, but it's the best there is", those were his words. So would you not agree that governments in many areas, and that they will in this area, move by default and not design if the pu blic doesn't start talking and thinking about where we want education to be in the Eighties? MR.

TOEWS: Yes, I supp ose I would have to agree with that because as you say, where there's no opposition or no input then the Legislature does what it feels is best for the province. And again I say, that's why we're here. MR. BOYCE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. and Mrs. Toews, for your presentation. MR. TOEWS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: I refer to Page 1 of the people who wish to make presentations. I call Mr. Jake Froese. I call Mrs. Mary Kardash, No. 3. Mrs. Kardash. MRS. MARY KARDASH: Mr. Chairman and meers of the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections.

I have with me Mr. Harold Dick, that I would like to have here. MR. CHAIRMAN: Fine, Mrs. Kardash. 392

Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 MRS. KARDASH: Mr. Chairman and members of the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections. As an elected representative of the Labour Election Committee to the Winnipeg School Board, I wish to take this opportunity of presenting the views of this committee on two vital matters of the pub lic educational system in the Province of Manitoba, but particularly with reference to the City of Winnipeg, namely, provincial financing of education and pu blic funds for private schools.

We are pleased to see that hearings have been called by the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections allowing those concerned with pub lic education to present their proposals and amendments to Bill 22, the Publi c Schools Act and Bill 23, The Education Administration Act. Needless to say, any legislation that will affect the future educational foundation of our society should be thoroughly considered by professional educators as well as by elected representatives and ordinary citizens before being put into effect and, of course, without unnecessary delay.

We feel the pub lic school system should be founded on clearly defined principles of which the public is not only aware but also actively partici pates in formulating and refining these principles. In this International Year of the Child, particular attention has been drawn to the rights of every child for equal educational opportunities. The United Nations' Declaration of the Rights of the Child states in Principle 7, and I quote: "The Child is entitled to receive education which shall be free and compu lsory, at least in the elementary stages.

He shall be given an education which will promote his general culture and enable him on a basis of equal opportunity to develop his abilities, his individual judgment and his sense of moral and social responsibility and to become a useful member of society ." These are noble aims which every nation should set as its goals for the present and future generations. Schools should equip our youth with skills and values so that they can lead socially useful, productive and economically secure lives as adults.

Schools should help children develop into creative human beings with an understanding of the cultur al and scientific knowledge that humanity has already accumulated, and in turn make their contribution to the vast storehouse of human endeavour for advancement and progress. The vital question is, how is this to be achieved? What are the realities of the present situation in our public school system? Dr. M. F. Grapko, guest speaker at the la st MAST convention in March, 1979, raises an important aspect which cannot be ignored.

He states, and I quote: "Schools are encouraged to provide equal opportunity to all children to help them develop their abilities, individual judgment and sense of moral and social responsibi lity." The fact that children are not equally able or ready to seize their opportunity to learn, work or play all at the same time, does not free us from retaining the options for all children. Headstart programs in the U.S. were designed to try to equalize opportunity for some children who, for economic, language or cultural reasons, were likely to drag be hind.

Today at a cost of over $400 million per year, Headtart continues to provide a preschool educational program enriched by a broad spectrum of social services to over 200,000 of America's economically disadvantaged children." Let's bring this point closer to home. Winnipeg has a large nuer of severely disadvantaged children in its core area. The Native popula tion has been steadily increasing over the past few years, settling mostly in the core area of the city referred to as Inner City.

Most of the children require special education assistance because of a lack of good education faci lities on the reserves over many years. This special need also applies to children of low income families of all racial and ethnic backgrounds and to children of the increasing number of immigrant and refugee families which have come, and are coming, to our city in the last few years, and today. In very concrete terms the following statistics were provided the Min ister of Education by the Winnipeg School Board when it presented its annual brief in Janua ry of this year.

Out of an enrolment of over 35,000 there were 4, 752 children of Native origin, 533 students attended special classes of English as a second language while regular classes of English as a second language were attended by 1,294; 605 children come from group homes. Over 2,000 children have attendance problems due to poor housing facilities and other social problems. Some 4,000 children have special needs that require additional resources in order to help them achieve at least the minimum basic standard of education.

This is not a new state of affairs tor Winnipeg School Division No. 1. lt has been with us for many years and is steadily getting worse. The need for additional resources are increasing while the policy of restraints by the present provincial government has greatly aggravated the situation. While the former government had at least recognized these ' problems faced by School Division No. 1 and gave it an Inner City grant to help alleviate somewhat the additional educational needs, the present government has been very reluctant in continuing with the Inner City grant and has cut back in some vital areas. 393

Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 Special programs related to the lnnter City population cost the division more than $6 million a year. lt is indeed ironical that in 1978 alone $6 million was collected from Winnipeg taxpayers to bolster provincial education fina nces through the Greater Winnipeg Education Levy - also called the Equalization Levy.

In addition to this is the fact pointed out in the brief of the Winnipeg School Division No. 1 presented at this hearing, that the 1979 interest costs for moneys borrowed for necessary current expenditures by the division will be in excess of $2 million, and to add insult to .injury we have just been informed of another increase in the bank interest rates to 14 percent, the fourth in six months of this year.

More and more it is being stressed by educators and medical people that it is important there be early and continuous developmental screening for all children in order to provide appropriate education programs for the preschool years. Su rveys have shown that an average fou r-year old child of a welfare or low income family is not able to cope with kindergarten requirements. The Winnipeg Division has been carrying on a nursery program for four-year olds mainly in the Inner City schools as a means of reinforcing their language and social development and preparing them for elementary grades.

This program has shown very positive results but since its inception in 1965 it has not been supp orted by provincial or federal funding. In 1978 the nursery class teachers were part of some 400 teachers for whom the division receives absolutely no Provincial Foundation program support, and the situation remains unchanged today. The whole grant structure needs complete revision to take into account the special needs of children in today's complex society. Nu rsery classes have become a necessity, particularly in urban centres with large numbers of women and single parents being absorbed into the labour force.

Therefore grants for them cannot be ignored by the provincial government. In fact, it could have established these grants as a practical measure to mark the Year of the Child in 1979. The examples given here clearly indicate that there is lack of adequate provincial funding. While the provincial government claims that its consolidated education funds cover 80 percent of the costs of education of the school divisions in Manitoba, this certainly does not apply to the Winnipeg School Division No. 1.

In 1978 the total support income from provincial sou rces that was applied towards Winnipeg's education costs was $32,303,500 or 42.3 percent of its budget, a most drastic decrease from the 64 percent received in 1970. Conversely, while Winnipeg taxpayers paid 33 percent of education costs in 1970 by 1977 the percentage had increased to 55 percent. lt has long been recognized that the present system of financing the growing costs of education are outdated and should be drastically changed. The home owner and tenant can no longer be expected to carry this burden.

The total costs of education must be assumed by the senior governments who have the necessary resources to provide for this essential service. We agree with the Winnipeg School Division proposal that

Section 189 be deleted from the bill, and the province seek solutions to inequities created by the equalization levy. But we wish to go further and suggest that a solution can be fou nd, even in these times of economic restraint, galloping inflation, and rising costs. so The tax system should be revisedthat for example, the CPR, which has not paid its proper share of taxes for years, and will not do so until the year 2004, start paying its full share of taxes. This should be done at the next session of the Legislature by passing the necessary legislation.

The same can be done with mining and other corporations which have been given tax concessions no average taxpayer has ever received, and who carries the main load of increasing education costs. A recent Dow-Jones su rvey shows the profits of Canada's 134 largest companies dur ing the first six months of 1979 were 50.3 percent higher than last year, and second quarter profits were up 53.5 percent. The best performer was a 27 company mining category with an increase of 127 percent.

At the first Congress on Education held in Toronto last year, it was reported that the contribution to education by corporations from their income taxes had steadily declined to 25 percent while that of average citizens had climbed to 75 percent. The other very important matter we wish to deal with pertains to the question of using pu blic funds to finance private schools, which was legislated recently in Manitoba. This matter involves the basic principles of the concept of a universal educational system for all the people of our country.

His tory shows that this was arrived at through a long, difficult struggle for the elementary rights of every citizen to an education through a pub lic school system. We have always maintained that it is in the interests of our democratic society as a whole, that we have a unified, non-discriminatory pub lic school system which is based on the fundamental principle of separation of church and state. The main components of this principle are

(1) That all pub lic funds should support a single, secular pu blic school system, which all children without exception have the right to enroll in, and

(2) That all taxpayers have a duty to maintain and improve this system for the benefit of all children, regardless of their religious, racial, or ethnic backgrounds. We live in a world that is very slowly overcoming many religious prejudices, which unf ortuna tely 394

Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 still exist, creating dissensions among people. We are seeing today what tragedies have been brought about by religious strife in countries, such as Ireland. lt is our strong conviction that the process of maintaining and continually improving a pub lic school system for the benefit of the whole society will be undermined if divisions are set up among families and particularly children on religious or ethnic grounds.

This is not to deny that parents are at liberty to enroll their children in private schools of their own choosing, but such schools should then be supp orted by private resources. The right to maintain private schools is guaranteed by law. We are of the firm opinion that those who want to take advantage of this law must be prepared to pay for it.

The argument of those who send their children to private schools and say they are taxpayers and therefore have the right to have their money used for funding of p rivate schools, is erroneous, as that would also give those taxpayers who have no children attending school a right to claim an exemption or a rebate. The logic of this would be the eventual destruction of the basic concept of a pub lic school system, which is to provide education for all children without exception.

Those who support private schools also claim that the present grant formula gives only $450 per pupil for private schools, which is below the current $2,000 per pupil cost in Winnipeg School Division No. 1, and they demand greater support. They also say the pu blic school system is not able to take in all the children presently enrolled in private schools, and that it would be more costly than the present set-up.

We say the pu blic school system should be able to serve all children, and the additional costs, from a long-range perspective, will have more beneficial effects for society as a whole, compared to the harmful fragmentation -of our educational system which the present legislation in regard to private schools will lead to. The desire of the majority of people in Winnipeg to preserve and develop a public school system was aptly expressed by a citizen to the Winnipeg School Board in these words, and I quote.

"The Publi c School system is the one toward which all nations of the world have striven for centuries, and in many cases just achieving now. lt is a system compatible with democracy, the one which reduces ignorance, prejudice, suspicion and fear of one's neighbours, and promotes co-operation, understanding, unity, and equality." In regard to other ramifications of funding private schools, the Winnipeg School Division this year had to "pass through" and that is the term used by the Mini ster of Education in describing the procedure leqislated for the fu nding of private schools, almost $1. 4 million earmarked by the provincial government for private schools.

However, the division had no control whatsoever of how this money is used by the private schools it enters into agreement with. We wish to point out that while these fu nds are being made available to private schools, the Winnipeg School Board has made several drastic cutbacks in its programs in the past year, due to the lack of adequate supp ort from the provincial government. The $50,000 cut from the Teachers' Library Resource Centre happens to equal the increased amount which will be given to private schools through the Winnipeg School Board this year. The $220,000 of public funds given to St.

Mary's Academy is almost equiv alent to the amount needed to repair George V School, which the Public Schools Finance Board refused to give the Winnipeg School Division. And to sum it up, the $1. 5 million which the private schools are receiving, could have covered the cost of much-needed special programs for the native, immigrant, and economically deprived children of our division. We strongly recommend the complete deletion of all sections of The Publi c Schools Act concerning public funding of private schools in any shape or form.

We also favour the deletion of the sections dealing with religious instruction in our schools, as this goes contrary to the whole concept of freedom of choice of religious beliefs. In conclusion, we reiterate that a pu blic school system is the only sound basis for the education of all people, regardless of their racial or ethnic origins, their religious or political beliefs. lt is the best means of nurturing our Canadian identity.

The quality and identity of a truly democratic society and its future course and prospects must be judged, more than anything else, by the standard of its educational system. lt is, therefore, the duty of this government to maintain the highest standards of education in this province by recognizing it as a priority in practice. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mrs. Kardash. Questions? Mr. Boyce. MR. BOYCE: First of all, I want to assure Mrs. Kardash that rt:JY reaction to somebody calling me this, that, or the other thing doesn't vary.

If somebody calls me a Conservative, I get just as angry. Mr. Chairman, on behalf of my constituents, I would like to thank Mrs. Kardash for her years of service on the Winnipeg School Board, because regardless of political stripe of anyone who is 395

Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 involved in the educational system in the city of Winnipeg, Mrs. Kardash has been one of the hardest working trustees that we have had for a goodly number of years. MRS. KARDASH: Thank you, Mr. Boyce. MR. BOYCE: But I wonder, Mr.

Chairman, in presenting your brief, when you say, for example, the�t the profits of the mining companies have increased by 127 percent over a period of time, 1 wonder if anyone has done any investigation of how much money goes into the private sector of schools from private individuals, from corporations, and such other contributors, which take it as a tax write-off. I think it was Mr.

Stangl who spoke on behalf of the Federat ion of Private Schools in the province of Manitoba, hazarded the opinion that it would cost us some $10 million a year to transfer the existing system into the pub lic system, and that, I suppo se, is done just on the basis of the additional capital costs and operating costs at the 1978-79 level.

But I do know that considerable moneys flow to the various groups that provide a private education, considerable sums which are a pub lic cost in the sense that their taxable incomes are decreased by the amount that they contribute to these private organizations, and I haven't seen anything in the literature on how much that actually amounts to.

I know, for example, in one particular case with a private school, a whole building was built, and in the corporate structure I think that was written off as an allowable tax deduction, so from your experience in this area, is there any information extant on the pu blic cost of those private donations? MRS. KARDAH: Mr.

Boyce, I am very sorry, I haven't got any statistics here, but I happened to be a delegate of the Winnipeg School Division at the first Congress on Education in Toronto that I referred to in the brief, where it stated that from the income tax, the portion that the corporations were contributing to education was declining over the years, where it's come down to 25 percent, and that of the average, the ordinary citizens, had increased up to 75 percent.

I'm sure that we could get the paper that was presented at this congress because I was very interested in this particular aspect of financi ng, and that could be provided. I'm sorry that I don't have it here today. MR. BOYCE: I'm familiar with those figures, but it doesn't reflect that portion to which I refer. I don't know whether this is going to be used at some future point in time as making me a member of the Communi st Party or the Labour, whatever, but nevertheless, I, too, believe that people have the right to send their children to any school.

And while I had said, and I have sup ported more community type schools, but I have also argued that we should make all schools pub lic schools. But if I may, Mr. Chairman, not to give figures, necessarily, but I know that I contribute to an organization, and when I fill out my income tax, at the end of the year, my taxable income is decreased to the extent to which I contribute to that organization, and with the particular tax bracket that I am in, I have a tax saving on that particular - let me just put it in different terms if I may, Mr. Chairman.

I don't pay into the pu blic coffers on that particular portion about 37 percent tax because it decreases my - in the last particular year that comes to mind, it slipped me back one notch on the ratchet so that if I'm experiencing this individually, and without necessarily mentioning the specific amount, I don't think I'm alone in this society, so that when somebody says that it would cost us, as taxpayers, some tens millions of dollars to have that educational function assumed entirely by the pub lic sector, I realize it would cause problems, problems which have to be resolved 1 but nevertheless, to use the argument that by having the private schools exist, we are saving as taxpayers $10 million, is that not an erroneous use of a figure?

TF250 MRS. KARDASH: Yes, I certainly would agree with you, Mr. Boyce, it certainly is erroneous because it doesn't bring into the whole picture what you have mentioned that there is the opportunity for tax deduction, but it also I think, gets away from the whole question of the principle of a public school system, a system that is for everyone. We don't want to start dividing people on the basis of their racial, ethnic, or religious beliefs.

And if the system is not providing, as the brief of the Labour Election Committee, the necessary resources from the provincial level which we have always felt should be in greater proportion, should haveincreased over the years, then that means that we have to find those resources to see that we do get at the problems, resolving the problems that I have mentioned here in the brief. it's not problems that we have wished upon ou rselves; we happen to be the school division that has the core area, and in the core area there are many many disadvantaged children.

There has to be some special way of helping them and as I indicated in the brief, that the nursery classes, for instance, were established in 1965, and if anyone has the impression that when they were established by the Winnipeg School Division, that it was right 396

Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 throughout the whole system, let me correct you. We started off with two, and it was actually supp osed to start off with one pilot nursery class, and after a long debate in which I felt it should be at least increased by another one, we finally had the board agree to have two. And it's been slowly growing and only covers the children in the core area.

But nu rsery classes are something that all children should have, not only in the core area, and we have not had any support at all from the provincial department for these classes, that besides the nursery class teachers, we also have other teachers that we do not get support from the provincial government because these are special cases or special programs. But how long must a special program exist, you know, it isn't just a one-year thing and you're going to go to the government and ask for some additional funding because a certain problem has arisen. These things are with us.

The problem of the core area is not getting better, it's getting worse, and that's something we have to recognize. MR. BOYCE: Mr. Chairman, I would agree that the problem is getting worse. lt has been with us a long time, in fact, this is one of things that caused Woodsworth to leave the pulpit, and a few others to be the precursors of the old CCF, but nevertheless, there have been a few people around including yourself who continually bring this question to the fore.

You have mentioned in reference to the programs provided in the core area, which I would agree, under the former administration as well that this seemed to be ignored. I understand in the current budget, there's a million dollars which goes to the Winnipeg School Division No. 1, with that moneys being earmarked for the kind of problems that you · refer to, I think it's on your second page at the bottom, "about 400 teachers from the division receives absolutely no provincial fundin g". Was there not a million dollars included in the budget this year for those problems generally? MRS. KARDASH: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the exact amount I can't say.

The point is this, that when the Winnipeg School Division presented its brief to the Department of Education this year, we asked that this particular special fundin g ... you see, we have a problem also with declining enrolment, and there are people who feel that if we have declining enrolment, it automatically means less costs, which is not the case, and there are different solutions being offered, like closing schools, which I personally happen to not agree with because we still have a lot to do to improve our educational system and that's been the case over the years in the past too.

And with decl ining enrolment, there are certain other problems that have arisen. But when we have this kind of a situation, and we have asked the government to take that into account, it's true, there was a declining enrolment special grant given because it was a problem that had developed and come up before our division particularly. When we approached the government this year for fu nding, we raised the question that we were told that certain programs were going to be cut out.

We asked that at least the fact that there was an inflation rate of nine percent should be taken into account, so if we were getting a million dollars last year and we're going to get a million dollars this year, that's really a cutback on the basis of nine percent inflationary. But we were told by the government, there is not going to be any increase beyond six percent, we're only giving six percent. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Boyce, may I just interrupt for ... Lynne Pinterics and Jerry ... are you the two girls sitting down there? Could you come at 2:00 o'clock today? Mr. Hu tton, is he in the room?

Carry on, we'll have you on exactly at 2:00 o'clock. Proceed, Mr. Boyce. We could have continued with Mrs. Kardash, but carry on. MR. BOVCE: I'm sure the Chairman didn't mean to pre-empt. Of course, I've been making this argument with the Min ister for the past year as far as the net decrease in the fundin g of education. Would I be out of order, Mr. Chairman, if I said to Mrs. Kardash with reference to that, if I had have been on the school board, · I would have raised the property taxes; I would have had no other alternative to reflect that, but that wou ldn't have made me a very popular politician.

The question of Winnipeg School Division No. 1. We're dealing with The Pub lic Schools Act and other legislation. Now, one of my apprehensions of the Unicity Bill was that it was going to be detrimental to the school system in that the power base has shifted from the old City of Winnipeg who had some pretty powerful people who were concerned about education, powerful people in the private sector, and as a result that was reflected in their willingness to tax themselves to make sure that Winnipeg No. 1 was avant-garde, was one of the best school divisions in North America.

But with the power shift, I think every community committee on the City of Winnipeg Council, is from outside of the old City of Winnipeg. I may be wrong but I think that they are. I wonder if Mrs. Kardash could comment on the impact of not just the decaying of the downtown area, but 397

Privileges and Elections Monday, October 29, 1979 the shift of economic control to the suburbs insofar as it relates to the educational system of half of the population in the City of Winnipeg. MRS. KARDASH: Mr. Boyce, I think that the answer is in the brief in relation to the reference of the equalization tax.

The question that Winnipeg School Division which is in Winnipeg Proper, as as say, and suppo sedly having the commercia! resources to be able to collect more taxes, is not actually so, because as I pointed out, that while the taxpayers who share the larger portion of the education costs in Winnipeg, paid only 33 percent of the education costs of Winnipeg School Division No. 1 in 1970, that that percentage had increased to 55 percent in 1977.

So while Winnipeg School Division does pride itself in being a pacesetter in many educational programs - the nursery classes are an example of that - we still have many many special needs of children that cannot be met with the present system of collecting the funds for education needs. it's got to be shifted so that the provincial government, which has the greater resources, provides actually that 80 percent of the cost that is claimed; it doesn't reflect itself as far as the Winnipeg School Division is concerned.

Now the fact that there is Unicity, we have in the Winnipeg area ten school boards, ten divisions, and there is . . . well, there is a uniformity to a great degree in the programs and yet there also is, as is only natural, a certain competition to see that certain things are passed off on to the Winnipeg School Division. For instance, we have the R.B. Russell School, which is a junior vocational school, and takes in youngsters who are having difficulties academically, but who can be given a good education academic, as well as vocational. And in order to get this education we have this special school.

But it's not only for our Winnipeg School Division youngsters; we have youngsters coming in from all the divisions because they can't provide, they're not in a position to build such a school, and therefore we have the burden of maintaining this school, with all the need for improvement and everything, it's mainly the responsibility of the Winnipeg School Division. MR. BOYCE: The fact that R.B. Russell School exists is a living monument to the efforts of Mr. Rus sell and yourself, and Mr . Johns, and a few other people in the community. Mr.

Chairman, I wou ldn't like to miss the opportunity to share a couple of ideas with Mrs. Kardash relative to the brief, but if no one else wishes to ask any questions, perhaps I could pursue it . . . but if somebody else wants to ask Mrs. Kardash some questions, perhaps we could ask her to come back for a few minutes after lunch. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you prepared to come back after lunch, Mrs. Kardash? MRS. KARDASH: Yes, I am, Mr. Chairman, yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well if that's agreed, then Committee rise. We'll proceed at 2:00 o'clock, Mrs. Kardash. MRS. KARDASH: Fine, thank you. MR.

McBRYDE: How many have you got on after 2:00 o'clock? MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, there's just Mrs. Kardash, Lynne Pinterics, and Jerry Reichseidler that just left the room, and at 4:00 o'clock Cathi Hill, who teaches at the university who was here this morning, but she'll be back at 4:00 o'clock, Mr. Hutton, and then I have a Mrs. Keenan, Mrs. Gui gere, and Mrs. Lavoie, concerned parents that will be here this afternoon. A MEMBER: Is that one brief ... ? MR. CHAIRMAN: One brief with three. . Are there any others, anybody else in the room that wants to be heard this afternoon? Okay, 2:00 o'clock. 398

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-4-pe14
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 4th hansardpdf pe14.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	85337cb592a17f62f114a919f2797b30ce45dcd5

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