VOJ..... 1 PRELIHii'lARY L"NEDITED TRAJ.'ISCRIPT HOUSE OF 1"".SSEHELY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, .'.UGUST 14, 1979 30. 22

August 14,1979 The House met at . 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: (SiJrallS) Tape No. 775 l\.H-1 Order, please! I am pleased to welcome to the galleries today on behalf of all hon. members the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committees from each of the provinces in Canada and I trust that their visit to our Province · will be both enjoyable and productive. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I would also like to welcome on behalf of hon. members a form~r member of the House of Assembly who is in the gallery, Mrs Hazel Mcisaac SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I have not had an opportunity to speak to my friend opposite on this point. Perhaps he may wish to be associated or might allow us to be associated with the action of the government in moving that an appropriate message be sent by the Clerk or by Your Honour, as the case may be, to the family of the late Mr. James Walsh,who,as we know,lost his life in a very tragic qccident on Friday past. Mr. Walsh, I think, was well know to many of us in this House, Sir, and made many and memorial contributions to the public weal of this Province.

I think it is fitting that the passing of ~uch a prominent citizen 1 particularly in such tragic circumstances 1 should be noted. It is something 1 as Your Honour knows,we have done in the House on occasion when a leading citizen of the Province dies and the House takes appropriate record of it. If I had been able to get here a moment or so earlier,! would have had a word with my hon. friend. Perhaps I would be allowed to second the motion on behalf of those of us on this side and my hon. 1~53

August 14,1979 Tape ~10. 775 l>.H-2 MR. A:>BERTS~ friend might be allowed, if he wishes, to move the motion and the House will adopt the appropriate action. MR. SPE~R: The hen. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, we would ~rtainly wish to be associated with remarks made by the hon. member. Mr. Walsh was well, known to most of us ;;and his -!Ultimely and trag.i,c de·ath is. ve:r:y much regretted. As D\anager of the Main Branch of the Royal Bank of canada he had been involved i~ the business community and in other COJI!IIItmity activities in the Province and in particularly i n the St. John's area.

As I say 1 the tragic events that transpired last Friday a~ deeply regretted by all, and, certainly all members of the House, unanimously. I do not really think that it matters who proposes or seconds it. I think we can all unanimously express our sympathy to the widow of the late Mr. Walsh and his family. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Is it the pleasure of .the House to adopt the said motion? Thos .e. in favour, 'Aye•, Contrary 'Nay", Carried. 1.9GO

.'i.ugust 14, 1979 1-1.."1.. S?EAKER: (SilllillS) ~R. ',i. CA.qTER: Tape 776 EC - l STATEl·IENTS SY ;uaiSTERS The hon. the Hinister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce today that the provincial Department of Fisheries has introduced a special fisi1ing gear subsidy programme for Labrador fishermen. Hear, hear! M...~. "II. CARTER: Onder ~~is programme the depa~ment will pay 30 per cent of the cost of purchasing certain types of new fishing gear up to a maximum of one-half the quantity of the same type fishing gear owned ~y the fisherman prior to his application for the subsidy.

The subsidy will apply to caplin and smelt traps, seal nets, herring traps and nets, trawl lines, cod traps, groundfish gillnets with five and one-half inch mesh and larger, and char and salmon nets. The subsidy on char and salmon nets will be paid only to resident Labrador fishermen who live and fish in Henley Harbour and settlements North of that Labrador communi~]. Only full-time seasonal fishermen who :1ave resided in Labrador for a minimum of one year and whO are owner-operators of a commercial fishing vessel will qualify for ~~e subsidy.

Applicants must ~e sixteen years of age and over ~~d operate a fishing vessel thirty-five feet in leng~~ or under. Guidelines have been built into tile programme which limit the qu~~tity of each type of fishing gear ~hie~ may be cost-shared depending on we size of the vessel a.'ld t.'J.e mll!'ber of fishe:::men affected. Government's invest:Inent is cove rea by a pay-back proceaure for cases ·.vhere an applicant leaves t.'J.e fishery. i•1r.

SpeaAer, I ~-n confident that a1is prograr.une '.-{ill go a long ~Nay in t.1e further C.evelapment of -:.....,e .:..a.oracor Unlike D..,eir C01.L."1te:::-parts on t~e Islw.J.C., 1.~61

.>.ugust 14 , 1979 Tape 776 EC - 2 0 fficials frorn my eepa..rarent are now on t.'le Labrador Coast expla.ini:lg this . programme to tl1e fishermen. SOME: EON • :·!E.'IBERS : :-l..'!.. S?::A.'G:R : (Simms) :Ill. . WAit.'<£!><: near, hear! The hen . t.">te r.1ember for 'l'orngat ~!ountai.ns. Mr. Spe ak:er , al ::..'lough I am not t.'Je spokessr.an for fisheries, as it per.:ains to Labrador : wish to m.a.k:e a few comme.nt.s. I am very pleased that ::..'le Mir~ster of Fisheries (Mr. N. Carter), die. see fit co offer r.n:.s gear s.ubsidy programme for l:.a.bra<;.or fishe:t'llten .

In fact , it is sort: of double-barrelled, because back in ~lovernber I worked t,.;it:h t.'le Department. of Fisheries and I -..:as o ne of che mai:-t bodie s behi!'l ci this :x>ve . SONE HON • l·lE!-!ilERS , z.u~ . :iARREi>: Hear, ~ear ! I believe at that ti.me •..Je got: our six fisne :::men f rom Nain co Red 3ay and met: L'l Happy Valley - Goose 3ay '"iti. t:,.,o othe r members of til e Depar~nt: of Fisheries , and this is exactly what ;,as disc:JSseci and 1962 ..

August 14, 1979 Tape No. 777 SD - l :O!R. G. WARRE:J: what was discussed and what came out of these meetings. So I am glad that, althought it is six months later or 7 months later, that ~1e Minister of Fisheries (Mr. w. Carter) does see fit to put such a programme into effect. I would like to congratulate him. SOME HON. I1EHBERS : MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) '1S • L. VERGE : Hear, hear. The hon. Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement about Grade XII. I wish to clarify the government's plans for the introduction of Grade XII in the Province.

There seems to be some public confusion about the implementation of Grade XII,which may have been compounded by recent conflicting press accounts of the discussion during the Social Services Committee review of the Education Department estimates. The government decided to implement Grade XII as a part of a reorganized senior high school program spanning Grades X throught XII.

There are three main reasons for this decision: Number l, improving the quality of high school education by enabling students to experience a broader programme; Number 2, giving students an extra year of growth and development before they graduate from high school and enter post-secondary institutions or the work force; and number 3, bringing the high school system in our province more in line wi~~ those in other provinces. In February 1979 the Department of Education began planning for the implementation of a Grade XII 2rogramme.

A Steering Committee was established, chaired by Cyril c'lcCormick, Assistant Deputy :.linister of Educaticn, with representatives from t:i.1e Educacion Depart.:nent !;l.struction Division, the Denominational Zducation Committee, the Federation of School Boards, the Newfoundland rr'..::achers' n.ssociation, :.~efilorial t:niver:sity and parents. Ti"" .. e colTIILlitt.ee na.s ~een r~!eeting regularly 3ince rlpril. ~he Steering Coln..TTli.t':.~e ·:1as sec up s~- 1963

A:.:gust 14 , 1979 Tape NO . 777 su - 2 :·IS . L . VERGE : c ommittees on six aspec-...s cf Grade XII. Those are ; community conce.."'!ls and publi c relations; curr i culum reorganization; facilities and cost estimates ; post - secondary cons.icie.rations; in-serv i ce and person ne l, and last, s t ude.'lt eva luation. The sub-commictees are now working ana are expec~:ed to report before til e end of t~is calendar yea: . The informatio ·n oeing gathered by the sub- c ommittees will be used by the Sceering Committe e to make r ec ommendation s on how and when Grade XII s~ould be introduced .

Alt.hought t."l.e t<.rget <late set for ::he in.t:oduction of the reorganized senio r high school p r ogram:ne including Grade XI! was Sepcember 1980 , with studencs encering Grad e X in Sepcember 1980 who • .. ou l d go on to become :he first: Grade xn class in September 1982, graduating in June 1983, the governmenc's final dec ision on that. ~l7le =rarn e "'.; J" no t, .. be,.. roati&- rmtil •· •· ..

August 14, 1979 Tape NO. 778 DW - l "!RS. L. VERGE: time frame will not be made until the Steering Committee has submitted its recommendations at the end of tl!is ;:"ear. The government's major concern is the educational quality of the high school proqramme, rather than the speed with which Grade XII is started. The government is comMitted to imple­ menting Grade XII and the Department of Education intends to keep the House of Assembly and the general public informen of proqress made on the plans for its implementation and the starting date. MR. SPEAKER (SI~~

S) MR. HODDER: The hon. member for Port au Port. ~r. Speaker, in response to the minister's statement I note that I did not get an advance copy again 1 which is, I suppose 1 the wav things usus all v run. Mr. Speaker, I w·ould like to say that it is obvious now, I would think that the qovernment will not be able to implement this Grade XII at the target date.

I cto not know if that is a b?.d thing or not 1 but when we look at the implications and the massive changes that will ha"e to take place in this Province in order to accommodate Grade XII, and if '"e look at the minister's times when the committee reports, I do not think that we will ready in September of 1980 to start ~~is programme.

And, as I said before, I no not think that this is necessarily a bad thing because when '"e consider that from some of the information that we have received about Grade XII recently, con­ sidering that the Department of Education has no" c·<eci ied or is no•,, thinking in terms of consolic.'ation of schools, and when we look at the fact that there will be a fair upsetting of the structure in schools in certain seographical areas of the Province.~hat it is a major thing and it must be brouaht in very carefully.

But l ,,vould ask the :r1inister anr: I ... iould =..sk t~is aovernment to make sure t::at +::-te~e i.:= full p ublic C.i.sc·.1ssion. I realize t:-tat t:-tese corniT1i t~ees 1:1c.ve ":Jeen ~.eetinq an~ ~hat there are suh-cOfT'IJ:"\ittees a.nd that t.hev are -.. ·orkir.c; alor.cr -::-~eir- 1~6S

.\Ug".JSt: 14, 1~79 Tape )fo. 778 Oli - 2 :!R. J .HODDER: does not: knot< ~xac::ly what t.'lese commit:tees are doing . Indeed, we do not: . know which ways t.hey are moving. !tow ?reat. is t.his going t.o l::e, the centralization of schools? Because I did hear in t:he comtni ttee , the minist e r ll'.ent:ioned that there wo\Ud be centra .lizat:ion in some areas . Is t.i<is goir.g to be done non-der.omir~tionally, ' in areas where geop­ raphy dictates or declining enrollments are such- AN rON . :·lEI'!BER: !<!R. J.

HODDER: Denomination ally? •lon- de!l'.oninationally, ! said. - L~ areas where there has beer. a great decline and •,o~here you have maybe t:hree or four denominations 3nd t.hree different separate school systems? These are jus t: questions t hat I think t-1-te general public should he aw·are of and t think that .. ,.

!\.ugust 14, 1979 Tape No. 779 NM - l HR. J. HODDER: the school districts themselves, where there will be disruption,! think that they must know. But I would say to the minister that I feel that it is time now to let the general public know exactly where we are going as far as Grade XII i s concerned, what the proposals are and what it is going to mean to the general school structure in the Province.

I am glad the Grade XII programme - for a while we had almost heard nothing about it until the committees discussed it- I am glad that there is something positive on the Grade XII now,that the government has indeed committed itself to going ahead with it,but I would urge that they do it very, very carefully and that the public be fully informed as to what is happening starting now. SOl-IE HON. MEl1BERS : Hear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The han . Leader of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker, I have a number of questions for the hen. the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins).

May I refer him, f irst of all, t o the budget of 1979 and the heading "Outlook for 1979," in which he forecast that., "The Newfoundland economy," . in his words, "will remain strong throughout 1979 and should demonstrate real growth of more than 3. 2 per cent." Today the Conference Board of Canada in making some forecasts for all of the )rovinces of Canada puts N ewfc~oncl.ond, strangely enough-and it is not a very p romising forecast for t he country as a whole at a very low level-but puts t he figure f or ' 79-'BO,I would assume i t would be, at 2 per cent.

Does the hon. minister have any reason to reconsider his fore c ast for the remainder of this year in the light of that and would he care to give us a figure for 1980? c·!R. SPEAI<!:R: The hon . Minister of Finance . ::JR. J. COLLINS: ~r. Speaker, I have only had an opportunity to see ne1NSpaper reports on the Conference Board of Canada l?reciic t ions to date and my understanding of those reports was that for the remainder 1967

.'l.ugust 14, 1979 Tape No. 779 NM- 2 DR. J. COLLINS: of this year, the current fiscal year, they were predicting actually quite a good increase for Newfoundland, I think it was 6.4 per cent,and I think the 2 per cent relates to 1980-81, that period. So in the budget we did predict 3. 2 per cent and if my

interpretation is right, and I believe it is, in actual fact we were being rather conservative. 1~68

August 14, 1979 MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): Oppositon. MR, JAMIESON: Tape 780 A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the That is putting it mildly, Mr. Speaker. With the greatest of respect for the figures 1 I do not know how the minister could have been off as much as he appears now to be in PK - 1 the remainder of this year from 3.2 per cent to whatever he quoted. I have not seen any figure of 6. per cent or 5. per cent, nearly 6 points for this year. for next year?

But does he agree with the 2 per cent figure And I ask him that in light of the fact that as of today also we have again doubled the national unemployment rate. A few days ago I asked him for some forecasts about this Winter. I forecast now that given this 14.5 per cent or approximately 14.5 per cent now1 that we will have a rate of 17 per cent or 18 per cent at the very least comes the high unemployment season for this year. I ask the hon. minister how does he feel about or how would he react to that kind of forecast? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, there are two questions there, one is the projection for the economy next year, and the other is the projection for the employment next year. We have not at this point in time made a projection for next year. We have not established what our projection will be. When the appropriate time comes 1 we will certainly be doing that. In terms of the unemployment figure for next year,the anticipated unemployment figure for next year, I have taken that under advisement and I will get back to the hon. member when the details are available. ~- NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary, the han. member for LaPoile. In line with the questioning of my han. colleague, the Leader of the Opposition, Sir, I wonder if the Premier could inform the House if the strike that is being made, the announcement by the Premier that gas and oil has been discovered off our Coast, if 1263

.;ugusc 14, 1979 Tape 780 ?!< - 2 Mr . Nearv: it is a major strike or is the ?remier exaggerating? ~~ . SPEAKER (SIMMS): The hon. the Premier . Mr . Speaker, I never exaggerace. I have never been known to exaggerat in the past, not llnown to exaqc;eraee t:oday, •,d11 not be known co exagg~rate in the future. I call the shoes as they are , Mr. Spe~~er, and the shots are,as it: relates co offshore right now on ~obil acrea ge, a well called Hiberr~a has encountered hydrocarbons at: around .: ,000 metres , in a zone of ,obviously, sandstone which is the conducive geology for hydro carbon appearance.

Bow much is there -S not know until the company has complet:ed drilling che ~ell and then does its test as it comes up from che botcom of che well ~~ough ehe ~rious zones. so t:he extent: of the ciscoverf ~ill not: be known for a couple of ·.reeks until che company has had opportunity to t:est. sue the drill ship has encountered hydrocarbons and it is not clear for sure whether it is a substantial amount: of gas or a substantial amount: o= oil present in the well. What: assumption (Inaudible) 19'70

August 14,1979 Tape No. 781 AF.-1 B:REMIER PECKFORD: Well 1 they have encountered hydrocarbons. We are not such which takes precedence over the other. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER:(Simms) hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. A supplementary. The I might point out for the benefit of the hon. the Premier in case he did not hear his Minister of Mines and Energy from Halifax 1 his minister was very vague about this whole strike even though the Premier seemed to be very enthusiastic about it, quite excited about it. Could the hon. gentleman just tell us just what is involved? Hydrocarbons.

There is no indication whether there is gas or oil there,although the Premier is leaving the impression in the Province that there has actually been a discovery of oil and gas off our coast when in actual fact this is not so. Even if there were a strike of oil and gas,could the hon. gentleman indicate to the House how long it would take to get a gas or oil strike off this coast, how long it wou!~ take to develop the technology to get it on shore where it could be of some benefit to Newfoundland? MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Pre~ier. Mr.

Speaker, anybody who knows me at all know that I am not very 2xcited right now, right this moment, and I have not been last evening or all through last night or this morning or right now. I am very cool and calm and collected trying to go about doing the business of operating the goqernment as best I can in my own humble and modest way.I say to the hon. member that 1 like the Minister of Energy (~I.Barry), the Minister of Energy issued a statement yesterday indicating ~~at the company have encountered hydrocarbons which mean that the drill ship or ~~e drill rig has encountered oil and gas.

In most wells it is not unusual to encounter coth.In the wells off Labrador, for exarr~le 1 there was substantial gas with minor amounts of condensate~

August 14 , 1979 Tape No. 781 1\.H- 2 PREMIER PECKFORP: which is a sort of a weird term to describe a 'hydrocarbon between oil and gas, nei~er one nor the other. I will leave it to the physicist or the chell!ists to work out which it is more of. But it any case 1 the ,]iscoveey- and it is a discovery; how significant we do not know- is in a very interesting area. It is · on the Northern Grand Ranks so-called, really. It is out the narrows 200 miles and veer a bit to yourself. That is where the Mihe%11.i.a well is 1which is in: an area unknown to tlls- SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh., oh.!

Pl!EMIER PECKFORD: - ~own up to this - and you CanllOt miss it. Just t:ake your thirty foot skiff and go on out with my directions, just given verbally, and you have to strike it­ not the oil, the rig. The interesting thinq here is that, nlllllber one, the discovery represents a new acreage area that hi thertofore bali not had any encounters of hydrocarbon wit.ll the Southern Grand Sank play that Amoco was involved in ten or fifteen years ago. that 19'72 •·

August 14, 1979 Tape 782 EC - l PRE~!IER PEC-<FORD: the other hydrocarbon discoveries had been off Laorador on t~e Eastcan acreage. So this really marks the first time of any encounter of hydrocarbons directly off the Island of .~ewfoundland and,more particularly, off the Northern Grand Banks off St. John's.

Thirdly, it is interesting from the point of view that it is in shallow water as opposed to the deeper water that Shell-Texaco is drilling on, which is in 4,000 to 5,000 feet of water; Imperial is on 3,000 to 4,000 feet of water; B.P. is on 2,000 to 3,000 feet of water; Eastcan is on 1,000 to 2,000 feet of water. This is the shallowest depth of water and,therefore, from that point of view, is extremely interesting.

Fourthly, it is very interesting because it is as far South no·,; as you can go on the prospective acreage that is being looked at by ~~e companies and, therefore, it is out of the immediate, and even more than that is out of the iceberg alley kind of situation. So there are two very positive factors to it, shallow water and out of the ice zone. The extent of the discovery, as I have indicated before, is not yet known, so I do not know whether we should be excited or whether I should be excited, and therefore, not knowing, I am going to remain very cool and calm. :.IR. i-IEARY: :1R.

SPEAKER: (Simms) member for LaPoile. ~1R. NEARY: A final supplementary, :1r. Speaker. A final supplementary, the hon. ~~e I was hoping the hon. gentleman would tell us, Sir, when we can all pack up and just stop working and we would all get our Cadillacs and get the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. The hon. gentleman was very evasive now; not quite as evasive when he was on the tel-.visi0n and r~dio last night and this morning. The ;'len. gentlell'.an left t...'le L.,_;,;:..,;;s.on , throughout the province, Sir, that we are all going to stril ~ it rich. Now the han. gentleman is very vague about it.

But I would like to ask t,..:,.e han .. gentleman, Is t."lis why t.r.~e other day ·,o~hen I 9ut the question to >.im about: ?rotecting ~,e environment and protec"t.ing t..~e fis :l~ ~l - ~ecause :..£ -,e have a !:!ajar blow- out there is no •.;ay to cope with it : t.:Oe c:ecimology i.s not available en ~r~e face of c.'-:e earth to cope "Nith it,_ anC. it ;,vould t..~reaten au:- fi.3!1ery - ir; t.~1is wny t.he non .. gentl:man said t..i-}at ·Ne \VoulC: scon need 1.973

,. August 14, 1979 Tape 782 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: a major debate in this House to talk about whether we were going to stick with the fishery - that is the impression I get from the hon. gentleman - or whether we were going to take the route of looking for gas and oil off our coast, even though it threatened the fishery in this Province, which is, as members know, our real basic resource in this Province? So when will that debate take place? And was this what the Premierwas concer~ed about when we were talking about the environment the other day and oil pollution off our coast? Z1R.

SPEAKER: (Si.mms) PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, that was one of the factors which led me to make that statement, the factor of offshore exploration, but also because of the Come By Chance ~eliberations that were involved and also because of the recent Kurdistan disaster on the South Coast - for all of those reasons, neither one being given any more preference than the other. At the time I made the statement, I was not aware of the latest news on Hibernia, which only became known in the last forty-eight hours or so.

So it was not done in the light of that information, it was aone just as a general thing. Secondly, I think very soon we are going to have to have that debate. There is right now legislation pending as it relates to environmental assessment procedures, a new Act that the member for Gander, the :1inister of Consumer Affairs and Environment (Hrs. Newhook) is involved in, and I guess that would be an appropriate time for the kind of debate that we have talked about. Y!R. SIMMONS: :1R. SPt;AKER: .1R. SI!-IHONS: Mr. Speaker. The han. the member for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir. :1r.

Speaker, yesterday I 2ut a series of questions to the han. the Premier which related to the r1elicopter crash on FriC.ay and the :1974

August 14, 1979 Tape No. 783 SD - l :1R. R. SIMMONS: very tragic consequences which follow therefrom. I wonder now would the Premier, having an opportunity to check into the matters I have raised, would the rremier and/or the i'linister of Transportation ("lr. C.

Brett) , who was absent from the Chamber when I first put the question- indeed, I had intented to put it to the Minister of Transportation - I wonder would the Premier and/or the minister responsible indicate to the House now what steps are being taken to ensure the safety of public servants and others who may have occasion to use the type of aircraft which was involved in the accident at Clarenville? ~IR. SPEAKER: (Simms) PRE!1IER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. The Minister of Transportation and Communications (!Ir. c.

Brett) just informed me t..'lat ·.;e are waiting for information now from the company and the Department of Transport but we do not have that information at the present moment but we will add up the information. -IR. R. SDIHONS: Supplementary, Hr. Speaker. :·IR. SPEAKER: Supplementary, the hon. member for :aurgeo - Bay d'Espoir. :·!R. R.

SH!HONS : I thank. the Premier. \'/auld the Premier and/or the minister consider requiring the contractor, the contractor who provides the aircraft services, wou2.G t"-e :1inistry consider requiring the contractor not to use the particular type of aircraft?And perhaps I should qualify by saying that I understand the contractor uses two different types of Bell Jet Ranger and that it is my understanding that it is the so-called Long Ran~er ·.;hich was involved in this accic.ient and two other accidents in the last r:~onth or so, and the same type was involved in the rather tragic accic.len t in Quebec, t.:."le so-called Long ::!.anger. i:Ui.d I • .. .ronc..ler •,o~ou2..ll the ~li:-.i.~try consider requiring the contractor not ta :1~-':' :...:1e ~-n·:; ?.anger in perfo:c1:.ing i t.s government contracts, ferrying back • ... .ti:cil~fe ;.eople:, air ambulance cu.ses ~nd so on, r..o~ ':o use 1975

.\UgUSl: H, 1979 Tape ~ . 783 so - 2 ;.m .• R. SI~NS: that pa.r:<:.icular type of equipmen<: until the safety considerations ~ave been adequately dealt with? :•lR. SPEAKER: (S i.wns) The hon . :1inister of 'l'ranspor<:ation and Con:municati.ons . ~~~ . C . SR£'1"1': ~tr. Speaker, t:ha .: ~s s-~ictly a :natcer for :·fOT 1 and as muc:t as I cay feel li.ke calling t.'le company i::wolved and making such suggestions , I think that ~he company would have evert right to tell ete t!tat it is really none of :ny business .

I '"'culd assume ehat. the company is operatin g under the rules and regulations as laid down by ~lOT and as long as they are then I do not t!u.nk ! ~ve any riqht to request thae t:..~ey step usir.g these partio~~ar helic~pters . ~IR . R. S:L:1!·10:\S: :>'.!~. S?EA:<ZR: for aurgeo - 3ay d'Espoir . Fir.al supplementa..ry, Ar . Speaker .

Final supple!nenc.ary, ::."le hon . member This is not th~ point to deba.:e t."lis,~ut surely it is well ·..-ithin t.1e minis ter's prerogative , The minister, as l U."lderstand it, adminiseers ;his parQcular ccn=act , Lit erally :1undreds of ?eop!e , :ninisters of t!l.e Crown , whom I have a special concern for, senior pu.blic servant.s , w!.:..ul.:.fe office rs, ::~y goc<i friend from Bon.avis;;a Soutil (i·tr . J . :-!Vrgan), •.;hom ! ·.,ould not "Nal\t :.o lose, 1S7G

,. August 14, 1979 Tape No. 784 NM - 1 MR. SIMMONS: air ambulance cases, literally hundreds of people in ~he run .of a month have occasion to use this type of aircraft under the auspicies of the government contractual agreement with the supplier of the air services.

And I quite appreciate the fine point which the minister makes that the matter of grounding is a decision for the 1-linistry of Transport, the federal agency. :,ut the question of w:1ether or not this type of aircraft ought to be used, I suggest 1 is a contractual matter between the minister's department and the contractor, Sealand Helicopters Limited, and it is in that vein, and perhaps I could just put the question one more time as a supplementary, would the minister, as a part of his responsibility to see that the contract i s responsibly administered, would he undertake to require the contractor not to use a Long Ranger until the question of safet y has been fully answered?

MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETT: Again, Mr. Speaker, I have no reason t o suspect that that particular helicopter is unsafe and unless I hav e some concrete e v idence, or even some suspicion of evidence that it is unsafe 1 t hen I feel I have no r i ght to as k the contractor n o t to u se that type of helicopter. I mean,after all it is strictly the responsibility of MOT and not the Provincial Ministry. MR. Sii·IMONS: Mr. Speaker, I wonder could I - MR. SPEAKER: I t h ink y ou inQicated a final supplementary but i f there is nobody else standing.

MR. i'lEARY: Let t h e h on. gentleman go. HR. SPEAKER: A fi nal supplementary, the ha n . gentleman f or Burgeo-Bay d ' Esp o i r. MR. SI MMONS: Mr . Speaker , yes terday in the Hou se i n the minister's absence I i n dica ted that I had knowl edge t h a t the manufac t urer of this type of aircra f t, the Long Ranger, had circ ul ated an internal memo to purchasers of that ~ype of aircraft, i nc lud i ng the purcha s er in ~!1i3 PYovince, the supp l ier of Governi.\ent air serv i ces ., and that memo 1977

August 14, 1979 Tape No. 784 NM - 2 )!R. SI:-1110NS: !,::lointed out that: chis pan:icular type of aircraft, the Longe Ranger, ofte n has or ca~ be e xpected to have sudden eng~ne failure when the aircraft is in the climb position, before it reaches i::.s cruising alt!.tude. ! submit to the minJ.ster that that ~s the ki~d of evide~ce in the light of the three acc~cients we have had J.n ctUs Province with ehe same eype of aircraft, ~ the light of ~;e one they have just had L~ Quebec with the loss of five lives, I •.rould suggest to the minisei!r that that is the kind of evidence that the aircraft may be unsafe.

Nobody is ma~ing a charge , nobody is saying it is unsafe; ~;ere l.S the question that it may be unsafe and I submit to him t.l1at that is enough of a mateer of doubt: ~~at he ought to take c.;e necessary seeps to ensure the safety of members of Cabinet, senior publJ.c servants , a1r ambulance cases, and those other people who have occasion MR. NEAAY: MR. SD!!>\ONS: ha ve occasion to use - liighways people, Forestry people. - all the many hundreds of people who \·ihat I am a slung rea~ly, :-tr. Speaker, to !?Ut 1973

T August 14, 1979 Tape No. 785 DW - 1 ~!R. R. SI!-'.MONS: ask the company not to use eight of its twenty-four aircrafts. I understand that only eight of the twenty-four or twentv-six are Long Rangers. The company still has sixteen, eighteen or twenty aircrafts - eighteen 1 I believe,other aircrafts, the so-called the original Bell Jet' Ranger, not the Long Ranger-~~e company still has another eighteen or twenty aircrafts that they could put at the disposal of the government to perform its governmen~ service contract.

And that is the essence of my question that in view of the possible unsafeness of the aircraft 1 would the minister take the necessary steps to ensure the safety of the>people who are using the aircraft? MR. SPEAKER: (SIMMS) ~IR. C. BRETT: Han. minister. Mr.

Speaker, I repeat 1 I ha~ no such information and I feel very strongly that if the hon. memeer has some information-! do not know where he got it or how he came about-but I feel that he certainly has a responsibility,not only as a member of the House of Assembly but as a private individual 1to see that that information is passed along to me and to the Ministry of Transport. But aoain, I repeat, I have no such information and I see no reason why I should call Sealand Heliconters tomorrcw - ~iR. S. ~EARY: (Inaudible) ''.R . SI'E.l\.KER : Order, olease! '1R. C.

BRETT: - or this afternoon and sucrgest that, 'Look, I have heard a rumour frcm the mem~ .r for Burgee - Bay d' Espoir (=tr. Simmons) that your Long Ranger helicopters are subject to engine failure anct therefore will you ground them until such time as I am ~onvinced that they are safe: 1 Are you not concerned? '~?.. .._. = D:ST'!': I am conce~.e:::, yes~ Of course, I am '"'te'!:y concerr1ef! I indicated yesterday \vhen talkinq to sor1ebafy ~ror c:"e :or-e so- that I am not concerned! But this is the responsibility of

August 14, 1979 Tape No. 785 DW - 2 :-!R. C. BRETT: No reason in this world. ~L"-. R. SIMl10NS: We have the information. ~!R. C. B!IETT: Well, if the hon. member has the inforrnation,why does he not give it to the people who are concerned? ~R. R. SIMMONS: A supplementary, ~r. Speaker. :-!R. SPEAKER (SI11MS) : The hon. member for Burgee -Bay d' Espoir. ~IR . R. SIMMONS: I do not know why, Mr. Speaker, but the minister for some reason is walking away from this one.

Now, lookli said yesterday in the House 1 and I say again today that the purchase of- I will be more specific: Sealand Helicopters has the memo·that is where I had access to it. I Mr. Speaker, if the minister has a genuine concern in this matter he need ~ot classify my information as rumour. All he need do is undertak~ to - "!E.. S. NEARY: Pick up the phone. !1R. R. SIMMONS: - pick up the phone and call Sealand and see if t.hey have such a memo. I will him now they have such a memo. And what I am. asking the minister is will he take the necessary steps; I am not asking him to be semantic or to blame it on tLO. T.

There is a matter of concern here 1 and it is widely shared in the public. a matter of concern about Cabinet officials. senior m~:-lic servants and many hundreds of people whom I have mentionel already. And the least, I believe, ~!r. Speaker, the minister could undertake to do is to check into this matter and if there is any reasonable grounds for requesting ~~e contractor to suspend its use of these eight pieces of equipment,I believe the minister should at the very least undertake to check out that possibility. I am asking him one more time if he will agree to do so.

T!"le hon. '!inister of '!'ransportation and Communications. 1~80

August 14, 1979 Tape No. 785 DW - 3 :-!R. C. BRETT: ~·!r. Speaker, the 11.0.T. is carrying out a very extensive investigation at the moment. I am in touch with !·I.O.T. I have instructed my officials to get in touch with Sealand Helicopters. There are a number of points that I want clarified; there is information that I want ,I gave the instructions yesterday;! did not have them up until the time I came to the House.

But if any information comes to my attention which indicates that the helicopters are not safe 1 then I have no hestitation in asking the company - well, I will not have to do that because ~1.0.T. will do that automatically. But I can assure the han. member that I was not aware that the company had a merrc. !f the company has a memo,well then I would assume that M.O.T. are aware of it or will be made aware of it and will take the necessary action. 11R. L. THOMS : :'IR. SPEAKER: (S!l1MS) MR. L. THOMS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The han. member for Grand Bank. !1r.

Speaker, a supplementary to the ~inister of Transportation and Communications. Am I to understand that the minister is not . taking the simple, safe,precautionary measure of instructing his civil servants, 1·1ildlife officials, etcetera 1 ministers and so on not to fly on this particular ship until after the ~linistry of Transport brings in its re port? It is a simple, safe 1 precautionary measure that should concern every one of us in this bloody House. SOME HON. HEMBEP.S : Hear, hear! ~~ - S. 'lE'!oP.Y: '·lr. Spea'<er. :1R. SPE.l\KER: The han. member for taPoile. '1P..

S • ~-JE~i\?.Y : ~!r. srettker I oCviously the ,..,on. qentle- ~3.n is !!Ot -;-oing to ans1ver the question as he :,as been i!'lformeC. by the ?rel-lier, ~is hoss, not to answer t:-.e .:;.uestion . ;·Ihat I want to 3.Sk t:-:e ·--:.on. ·"':entl::=Plan is if - 2oint of orC.er, ~·-.os ·:or! . ?re:-i:=. 1981

.C\ugus t 14 , 1979 Tape No. 78 5 OW - 4 PREMI ER PECKFORD: question he is going.to ask should not be permitted,and I do not think under the rules are permitted. For the han. member's information 1 seeing he is so eager to know what the hon. Premier is doing every second during 1982

August 14, 1979 Tape 786 PK - l PREMIER PECKFORD: Question Period, I did not instruct the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett) to answer. MR. NEARY: get up. PREMIER PECKFORD: It would appear that way. You refused to I did not instruct. And I think it is unfair of the han. member to make such comments which reflect upon the behaviour of another membe~ of the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Hear, hear!' To that point of order. On the point of order? To that point of order, Mr.

Speaker - The han. member for LaPoile. - I would have hoped that the Premier would have taken the opposite position and instructed the han. gentleman to do something about this. MR. MORGAN: Start your question now, The House is not open for debate. MR. NEARY: My question to the han. gentleman, Sir, if anybody in the public service - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! With respect to the point of order that has been raised, again I quote 31 (

c) for everybody's attention, everybody is very much aware of it "That in putting oral questions no argument or opinion is to be offered nor any facts stated except so far as may be necessary to explain the same." I will ask the han. member to direct his question, please ~-NEARY: I apologize to Your Honour. My question for the han. minister, Sir, is a follow-up to the one my colleague, the member for Grand Bank t Mr. Thorns) asked. In the event that public servants are told to go on assignments ~board of these helicopters that are conside~ed to be 1983

August 14, 1979 Tape 786 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: dangerous , that is the Jet Long Ranger, and they refuse to go, what will happen? Will they be disciplined? Will their services be terminated? Will ~~ey be laid off? What will happen in the event of anybody in the Forestry, Fisheries, Tourism, the Department of Tourism or in any other part of the public service refuse to get on these helicopters, what will happen to them? Will they be disciplined in any way? Or will their wishes be respected? MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETT: That matter has been discussed, Mr.

Speaker. No 1 to the best of my knowledge no civil servant would be disciplined in any way if he refused to fly. we have lots of civil servants who refuse to fly for rea.sons - some people are afraid to fly so they do not fly; they walk or they go by car or train or whatever 1 and they are not fired or disciplined. MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: The han. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. A supplementary to the minister. Has the minister in his capacity as minister flown the Jet Long Ranger? And would he do so now? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister for Transportation and Communications. MR.

BRETT: This is getting a bit ridiculous, Mr. Speaker. Yes,I have flown the Long Ranger, As a matter of fact 1 I flew it two or three days before she went down. I think it was the same machine. I would fly it again but I think I would be afraid. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question I would like to direct to the Minister of Fisheries. As the minister is aware 1 on July a number of fishermen in the greater Lamaline area lost considerable gear as a result of storm damage. My question to the minister is I understand an assessment of uamages have been made.

I would like to know what the size of the damage was and whether or not it qualifies under the federal-provincial per captia cost sharing formula? i954

.1\ugust 1~, 197'9 Tape 786 P!< - 3 MR. SPEAKER (.SIJ.I.'IS) : The hon . Minister of Fishe ries, !-!.~. W. CARTER: Mr. Spe~er, I know the surv ey has been conducted. I am not aware yet as to exactly the extent of the losses. But I can say that we do not have any gear replacement programme as such. We pay a subsidy on gr oundfish that is suppose to compensate for lost and worn out gear, With respect to ~e latter pa_rt of th~ question, I doubt very much whether the loss es sustained by the fishermen would qualify them for assistance under the federal­ provincia .! cosc shared, Er-10 arrange:nent.

I think in that case the losses must be for an amount in excess of the one dollar per capita of the total population of the Province. And that being the case 1 I doubt very much whether the losses suffered by the fisher:nen would ~xceed or at least would match the criteria that is established by the federal. government whereby assistance can be rendered under the Emergency ~!easures Organizat ion programme. MR. JAMIESO N: MR. S?e:J\KER: Opposition. MR. .11\MIESON: A supplementary. A supplementary, the hon .

Leader of the Just to set the record stra~ght , if I am correct, is it not the case. ii I !l'.ay direct this to the minister, that where the amount is less than the per capita that it then becomes the responsibility of the ?rovince to deem whether it is in £act a disaster or not and to absorb the cost? And the question is, since it appears to be under the per capita amount. will the Province compensate this particular group of Eishe-~en who have been severely hurt? :-1.'1.. SPEAKER: MR. N. CARTER: The bon . ~inister of Fisheries, Mr. Speaker, 1985

August 14, 1979 Tape 787 EC - 1 I'.R. W. CARTER: whether it is over the amount or under, the Provir.ce does not have any le~al responsibility to replace lost gear. We do pay a subsidy, of course. It is a very substantial subsidy, that is the overall amount that is supposed to be used for the replacement of lost and torn up gear. But I repeat, once the amount of the losses suffered exceed a certain amount - I think it is ~1 per capita - well, then, automatically on the request of the Province, the federal scheme will fall in place.

But certainly, for an amount less than that, we have no jurisdiction; in fact, we have no legal obligation. Mr. Speaker, I can only say that we are aware of the losses and anything that we can do we will do to assist t.'le fishermen up t.~ere. MR. F. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Trinity - Bay de Verde . MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. the member for Mr.

Speaker, the minister has indicated that the Province has no legal responsibility in this particular matter; however, the Province in a number of Tl~one Speeches have indicated t.~at they were trying to get a low cost- shared gear insurance programme established .,...ithin t.~e Province. l1R. ROBERTS: Did they not promise one? M.!l.. F. ROWE : And they promised it in a number of Throne Speeches and in a number of alec~ion campaigns.

Therefore, I ask the minister, Does he not think they have a moral responsibility to install such a gear insurance programme for the fishermen wi1o do not qualify under ~~e federal programme? A.'l HO~. . 11El1BER: MR. SPEA.'<ER: :1.'<. fl. CARTER: Hear, hear! The hen. t.'l.e Hinis ter of Fisheries. Hr. Speaker, we are very t:tuch committed '::o the proposition t.~at a gear insurance programme should :Oe in place and we have worked on that now for quite some time. In fact, I announceci 198G

August 14, 1979 Tape 787 EC - 2 !-!R, W. CARTER: last November that such a programme would be in place on a limited scale by hopefully, April lst of ~~is year. In the interim, of course, the federal gove;nment announced its intention to get out of the vessel insurance programme. Of course, when that happened, then the Fishermen's Union got their forces together and decided they would come up with their own programme of vessel insurance to fill the void. It was determined, I think, Mr.

Speaker, that any such programme on the part of the Fishermen's Union or indeed, the Department of Fisheries, would only be viable if it could be a package proposition, and by that I mean gear as well as vessel insurance. I am told that the union has since lost interest in that kind of a programme and we are now pursuing it. And hopefully we will have such a programme in place in the very near future. 11R • F • ROI·IE : What is the very near future? It is eight years now. MR. 'rl. CARTER: I am hesitant, ~. Speaker, to put a time frame on it, but certainly, as soon as we can we will have such a programme in place.

MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Order 1 please! The time for Oral '::luestions has expired. I am ?leased on behalf of all non. members to welcome to ~~e galleries a former member of this House and former minister, Mr. Ank Murphy. SOME HON. ME ~IBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: And on behalf of hon. members 1 I •,;ould like to welcome to ~•e galleries,as well, a delegation from the Town Council of Bishop's Falls, Mayor George Saunders, Deputy Mayor Oliver Rose and Town 11anager ?.etis Hancock. Sm!E HON. MEMBERS: :--!R. SPEA.'<ER: Hear, hear!

Presenting Repcrts by Standing and Special Committees, Notices of ~IDtion, Answers to ·2uestions for which :>1otice !"las be~n Given, Presenting Petitions. PRE:!IE=< ?EC:KFORD: Mr. Speaker. AR. SPEAKER: Th e i.1o n . t:le P !:'em.ier . 1987

August 14, 1979 Tape 787 EC - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: If the hon. House will agree to revert. we have passed the Answers tc Questions? MR. NEARY: PREMIER PEC?J'ORD: as well? SOME HON. MEMBERS: HR. SPEAKER: (Sinuns) PREMIER PECKFORD: By leave. Do other members of the House agree, Agreed. By leave, the hon. the Premier. Alright, then I have unanimous consent, I take it. There are a number of other members in the House who woula like me to present - On the Eastern Provincial Airways verbal question asked by the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) some time ago, I table the answer to that question.

And there was one other, I think, to do with Atlantic Place and the contract or something, and I am having that retrieved at the present moment. ~1R. NEARY: A point of order, Hr. Speaker. !-1R. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. ~'1e member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the House is rapidly drawing to a close, Sir, and I have over thirty questions on the Order Paper, ·.rritten questions that have not been answered. I would like to ask ~'le Premier when I am going to get the answers to these questions, if I will get the answers before the House closes down, whe~'1er it is this Friday or next Friday? MR.

SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, to the point of order, I do not think it is a point of order and it is a question that the hon. member for LaPoile should have more appropriately asked in Question Perion. ~1R. SPEAKER: I 'N"ould rule wi t.."l respect ::.o the point: of order tilat it is clear in the Standing Orders 'Cha'C a minister ~ay, in :1is disc=etion, decl1.ne to answer any question. Obvious l y, t~~is !.5 ;10c a point of order. 1988

August 14, 1979 Tape 787 EC - 4 ORDERS OF THE DAY HR. Y.A&SHALL: l·lR. SPEAKER: ( Simr.lS) report of the Resource Committee. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Order 3. Order 3, Concurrence motion, the Tne hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Hear, hear! 1.983

August 14 ,1979 Tape No. 788 AH-1 MR. JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to take very much time in this particular debate nor in fact to be dealing with any of the specific items in it1 but; since I was inadvertently and unavoidably absent yesterday when this procedure began I feel that I ought to at this time say a word for the record with regard to this whole new process and with regard to some of the advantages as well as what I now come to see as some of the weaknesses in the system.

And I say that becaus~ 1 as member:; wl,l.l recall, when there was widespread agreement in this House to proceed with committees on estimates, I ntade the point most emphatically that we were proceeding, (

a) on the basis of good faith and (

b) on ~~e basis of experimentation and that clearly there would be1 over the process of the first phase of this new procedure, things which each side would discover and which we would wish to have changed at some point in the future. And it is in the context of that initial intervention of mine that I say these few words today on the particular report on concurrence which is befor~ us.

On the matter of the committees themselves , I think it is not necessary for me at this stage to access or to go into the procedures other than to say that I believe,with the benefit of hindsight - and incidentally I am not in this context making any declarations or accusations. I think it was by 1 in a sense, mutual agreement that certain processes were followed-but there is no question that having three committeps meeting simultaneously is probably not a very good process or a procedure to follow on a consistent or long-term basis. And therefore I orould recommend and indeed hope , Mr.

Speaker, that the appropriate officials of the House, including as well as the House Leaders, might want to have a look at that for future consideration. I think it also particularly important to note in the light of the fact that all hen. members 1 I have no doubt 1 are most anxious that the public get as much 1990

August 14,1979 Tape No. 788 AH-2 MR. JAMIESON: information as possible and of course one of the difficulties when one has at least the three committees meetinq simultaneously is the difficulty 1 which has been conveyed to members on all sides 1 of the media with regard to the reporting procedures. The second weakness, I think, is the one where it is probably being demonstrated by me right now,and that is that in effect the concurrence debates have really become in a sense an extension of the Budget Debate and I do not believe that that was what was in han. members' minds.

It certainly was not in my mind and I want to make it clear that while it may be strictly speaking and technically correct as we are now proceeding,and as we are proceeding by agreement with a certain number of hours and so on,that it does not give to han. members the opportunity for that remaining period of time that we have in order to cross-examine, in a sense, and to have answers from Ministers of the Crown.

I am not the learned gentleman that my own House Leader is or the Government House Leader is and so I will not argue the point as to whether or not it is technically correct for a concurrence motion seeking supply for Her Majesty to be moved by a non-minister, I am not sure about the technicality of that,or that the minister not in some way participate in the procedure. I am merely raising it now so that over ~,e next short period of time these matters can beassessed and discussed.

But I do think that what we have here is a clear indication of one of the shortcomings and the weaknesses of the system and I believe that there will be o~,ers,as I forecast dt the outset, that it will · become apparent to members we will want to change. For example 1if we were in the old procedure these concurrence dabates or their equivalent would require the responsible ministers to be in their places, would require that members have the opportunity to question.

Now I repeat once again that we may not have utilized all of the time in committees and what I arn saying here now is merely,I emphasize it clearly for the basis of putting it down and making no mista~e 1~9:1

August 14,1979 Tape No. 788 AH-3 ~R. JAMIESON: about the fact that we would like to have this looked at again. There will be heads which will be examined this afternoon, (

a) in the absence of the minister­ perhaps through no fault of his own, hut clearly also what is happening 1992

August 14, 1979 Tape No. 789 NM - 1 HR. J~UESON: is of course that there is no responsibility on the minister to respond or to do anything .other than to merely sit it out 1as it were,and wait for the guillotine or the time lapse to come to an end. Now,I believe tl1at this process would be much more beneficial, much more useful to members and to the people of Newfoundland in terms of giving them information,if we had a technique whereby,by no othe~ means than oy agreement 1 that ministers would be afforded a certain amount of time at the end 1or in some form or other 1in order to answer very real questions which (

a) may have been brought up by members in co~~ttee and which they may not have had a satisfactory answer to and they wish to pursue the matter further in, if you like, Committee of the vfuole or in front of the whole House; that is une part. The second thing we have to remember 1 I think, which is vital, by the way,if the committee system is going to function,is that not all members can attend all committees, particularly if there are three committees meeting simultaneously.

Consequently there are inevitably, going to be members of this House, and maybe some on the government side as well, who want the opportunity during what has come to be described as the concurrence debate, to put questions directly to ministers and to get answers to those questions.

Now, what we have seen testerday, as the new process evolved was th<::t indeed- and I recall incidentally that the House Leader made the :;>oint some days ago that a member had lost his opportunity to speak to the budget debate, again through no fault of his own, but that he would speak in the concurrence de~ate- and so what we had 1 in a way1 was a maiden speech, if you wish, made during a period w·hen in =act 1 we were supposed to be in this House concentrating upon specific heads and dealing v:ith S?ecific items of expenditure.

I therefore maintain, and I will watcit this very closely, as I am sure all colleagues •,;ill wer the next litt l e '>Thile co see ·>1i1ether or not ~ t is going to be possible for us to make 1~93

August 14, 1979 Tape No. 789 MR. JAMIESON: this portion of this exercise as effective as the majority of mernbers,I think 1 believe that the initial portion was. But if that is going to work 1then we must NM - 2 worl. out a system in some way or other ·.<here the responsible minister or ministers are in the House at the time of the concurrence debate, that it is being held in such a form that there is the opportunity to ask and to get answers.

Because if that is not going to happen, then the likelihood is that all the time, whether in fact it makes sense or not, is likely to be taken up in the committees, and that 1 I submit 1 would also be •·n aberration on what was basically intended.

I say all of that by way of a continuing desire to see 1first of all, the process refined and improved and , secondly,and most importantly 1 to ensure that the process does not lose credibility, and I think that that is terribly important, that if in the country as a whole it turns out that the public comes to regard, and some people have already described it as a rubber stamp kind of exercise, then it will be a very sad day for what was initially described as a reform. And therefore, Mr.

Speaker, as my only comment on the process at the present time, I would hope that all hon. members, and particularly those who h ave had r.ow experience with the committees, and perhaps even the House Leaders themselves, or indeed the Premier and myself, may at some stage be able before we move into the next session, or whatever the new process may be following this session that we,in total objectivity . look at this exercise that we have had in the last three or four weeks, see what its strengths are, what its weaknesses are, so that above everything else -_,e will emerge from this •.<i th a better system and one ·with which the people of Newfoundla.'!d are going to be Si.tisfied.

If -., e nave a system, I !:epeat, in which t h ere is a feeling abroad that in some way or other very large amounts of money are being granted 199-1

Auc;usc 14, 1973 Tape No. 789 NM - 3 MR. JAI-!IE:SON: in a casual sor~ of way without adequate exanu.nation, and we all know t:hat there is a certain rese !'ltment about rules wh~ch were establish ed long before I and many ochers ~ere in t.!lis House ,limicinq to sevency - five hours 1buc we mus.: surely be able to ~emonscrace ~~at: ~~ose sevency - five hours, and che process, is cocally open ~~d chat those members who want eo ask questions do noe simply !ace a potential scone '"'all in the in eerest: 1 for instance , ot crying t:o be co- operaeive.

So I puc chose remarks on the record now and say that we for our pare will coneinue to co­ operaee w1eh ehe arrangements thae the r~use Leader has worked out , but that we do 1nsise thac before this process begins agaL~ we have the oppo:n:unity to examine it very carefully and eo ensure thac, and I recall usL'lg these \~ords ae che tLme, that the spirit as •.rell as the letcer of whac is implicit in chis process, that the sp1r1c as ""'ell as the letter of ie are both sustained and carried through. 1~S5

August 14, 1979 Sot1E HON. MEMBERS: :·lR. :::>. JAMIESON: i-IR. SPEAKER: (Butt) Leader of the Opposition. HR. D. JA.'!IESON: Tape No. 790 SD - l Hear, hear. On·a point of priviledge, Mr. Speaker. On a point of priv.iledge, the non. I apolgize. I suddenly realize that perhaps I ought to nave waited until the Chairman of the Committee nad moved the concurrence. I did not realize that that had not been done, I am sorry. PREMIER PECKFORD: o!R. D. JAMIESON: :1R. SPEAKER: (Butt) i1R. :1. BARRETT: He already did. He had. The hon. member for St. John's West. Thank you, i·!r. Speaker.

I am quite honoured and pleased to be able to respond on behalf of the Resource Committee struck to review of the estimates and particularly to take note of some of the ra'llarks that have been made by the han. Leader of the Opposition (c·!r. D. Jamieson). As I made notes during his speech, he has .identified two basic weaknesses in the system 7 and I think that ~~ese can be easily identified as being the fact that the committees met sirnultaneously 1 and that the system was, indeed, an extension of the Budget ~ebate.

I think that I probably have made reference to these and paraphrased it a great deal, using greatly less verbiage than the hon. Leader of the Opposition. However, I think that the intention of this particular exercise was to permit an .indej,>th analysis of ~'le estimates. I ~'link ~~at this, in fact, ~as been achieved.

I do not think it makes a difference as to what fo~ of system one could envisage to address .itself to such an important 5ubject as ~o the estimates of certain departments withoutincurring some fom of failure or some aspect whic~'l tlvas not .. ·..;0t ~ith t.i1e a~p~oval of every iJerson ~nvolved. from ru.y own point, I rr:igbt have li:....eci ~a ~ave at.t2r~ec.! a meeting of one of the ot:1er .:ornmi~tees at 19SG

,. August 14, 1979 Tape No. 790 so - 2 ~ inclined to m~~e representation at: each particular meeting 1 then I could have one of my colle.:.gues acciress t.be specific ques't:ions co which I was seeking answers . t-le must recognize the fact t:!lat we are unable to sit t:o review sucb estimate s until ~~e estimates have ~e:l brought down in t.'le audget debate . Once t..'1at has happened ,~ t here is1 ooviously, some time ira'lle L"l '"'hich concurrel)ce mus't: be. obtai.ned .

The people '"'ho drafted the outline cr tl1e guideLi.tle s for t.'lese particular committ:ess at this point in time suggest:ed that fif::een days or fifteen sitting days was adequat.e time . The Chairman of each o.f these coaunittess met and we did look into a number of alt:ernatives , i1r . Speaker , to cry a.nd have the committees meet in a non- concurrent fashion so chat the problem that. was eluded to by the hon. Leader of t:he Opposition :night not have occurred.

I might say that t.'le Chairmen of the ~mnu t:te·es were quite prepared to ?ursae schedulL"lg that ·~-ould have allowed the committees the timing so that t.'ley would not have :::tee si::~ultaneousiy. However, by agreement , wit."lout 1..997 ..

August 14, 1979 Tape 791 PK - 1 Mr. Barrett: any pressure/ there was a suggestion that the process be attempted to be sped up to allow the House to have the report of the various Commit~ees in a shorter period of time. And with the full knowledge of all members of the House,a rescheduling process was done and Committees did in fact meet simultaneously. However, I do not think that this in any way detracted from the information that was obtained.

And I would like to suggest that some of the people who have been most vocal in their objections to the Committee system made it a point not to show up at any of the Committee meetings. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. BARRETT: And it is very difficult for - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRETT: - any person to make any assessment on the validity of any Committee or any system without having firsthand knowledge of what is going on. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

BARRETT: And to be able to sit back and take shots at some people who made an honest effort to obtain the information from the department heads respecting items of vital interest to this Province is certainly no t to my way of thinking a firm basis for making undue criticism of the system itself. The Committee of which I was a part,sat in session for a total of twenty-seven hours, and this spanned ten separate sessions,in review of the estimates of six departments.

There were eighteen members of this House of l'.ssembly who attended our particular Cornmi ttee meetings other than those who "'ere members of the Committee. I would have to acknowledge and thank the Vice-Chairman of this Committee, the member for Baie Verte-White Bay (Mr. Rideout) - SOME HON. >~~ERS: Hear, hear~ ~·!R . 2ARRETT : - who made every attempt to see that a proper procedure took place '"hereby the Opposition members were given every

August 14, 1979 Tape 791 PK - 2 ~!r. Barrett: possible opportunity to explore fully those areas of the estimates that they wanted to explore. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRETT: And I think it was shown in Committee and reported adequately in the press whereby members of the Government side of the House had no hesitancy in asking pointed, direct questions that might,in some quarters 1 be construed as embarrassing questions to the ministers. Al.'l. HON. MEMBER: The proper thing. MR.

BARRETT: And they obtained 1 in all respects 1 full co-operation from the ministers of the various departments, full disclosures as was required, no tendancy to hold back, and if all of the items were not covered it was possibly because of the failure of some members to address themselves to questions rather than to try and state a point of view or a philosophy on a particular item.

I might mention that this Committee,as the other two,shared facilities in the old Legislative Assembly Room of the Colonial Building, in the Collective Bargaining Room on the Third Floor of this Building, and in the Department of Health Board Room on the lower floor. It was not our intention initially to use the third location satisfactory. and I would have to state that it was far from being However, the other two locations certainly were adequate, but I think that the location deemed most appropriate by far was that of the Colonial Building. AN HON, MEMBER: Right on! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

BARRETT: I think, and I think this view is shared by most other people attending these sessions .that every effort should be taken to have this historical occasion again restored to its original condition and used as a permanent facility for use by Standing and Special Committees of this House .. 1999

August 14, 1979 Tape 791 Pk - 3 I·!R. SARRETT : I would like to review ,briefly ,some of the areas that were considered ty the Resource Committee,

August 14, 1979 Tape No. 792 NM - 1 MR. BAHRETT: These included the Department of Hines and Energy 1where quite a bit of discussion centered around the Buchans situation on the discontinuance of the present mine as we know it, on the results of recent assessments to the Tulk's belt deposits and the genuine concern of all members of the plight of the people that are resident of that area. I think we all shared the sentiments of the member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) when he made every effort to bring to everybody's attention the need to take quick remedial action if at all possible.

This important department also received a great deal of consideration as it related to Newfoundland Hydro. A great deal of discussion centered around the Lower Churchill development and the Opper Salmon development. A loc of discussion and questions were also asked as it relates to offshore jurisdiction. In Forestry, Resources and Lands 1 items covered included the spray programme, the forest management programme as it relates to Crown lands, and as it relates in particular to lands held by the major paper companies.

Ne also touched on 1 in some detail 1the forest access roads, their construction, their usage, and who should exercise control. Forest fire protection was covered as it related to facilities, adequacy of personnel, and the future direction of the department in that ver" critical area. The procedures presently being put into place with respect t o Crown lands, grant and lease programmes, were also covered in some detail.

The Department of Tourism, Hecreation and Culture covers such areas as the advertising progr~~e for tourist de v elopment And changes, very conscructive suggestions ca111e out of ~he Committee as to the direction of this advertising programme, ·.;here diff2rent ~---, · · ? c ;_ o ::Ol: 1.d 'Je ""llaced whereby a better return on t h e i :r 1est:me n c in that direction, should be obtained. 2Cn1

.>,ugust 14, 1379 Tape N9 . 792 !nforma~ion was obtained concerning t:1e policy on ne"' facility consc cruction, where these facilities should go1 the privat:e sect0r involv ement in our courist resource, and 1not ~~ lease of ~hich to mencion 1 che future role of the vessel the Norma and Glaclvs .

Details were obtained regarding ~he continuinc; parks programme, their upgrading and e ltpansion, the need for additional facilities, . che need ::o recognize the dif::erent :~eeds of the Newfoundland people, tne need to restate the emphasis that ~~ se parks ar~ for the enjoyment: of Newfoundland's people, and not necessar~ly to respond to the needs of touris ts from outsid e this ?rovince , the fact that c.'lese :1eeds differ as it relates to campers or trailers • iole revie,~ed t he new par.<: facility ac SaL11onier, t.he Wildlife ?ark, and the impac~ that it is having on our tourist development .

A gre at: deal of q~estioning also surrounded the con=ol of licences fo::: big _game huncers dlld 11hich di::eccion thi s shoul.C take in che future. The recreational sporcs programme grancs , assist:a.'lces, various conununity facilities, capital expenditures and t:he role o f che Newfoundland and Labrador '!ou t:h :o!Miission ">Jere also ..revJ.ewed . The Depar~ment: of Fish~rJ.es received a great dea l of time as :Lt: related to obtaining information on c!:le var:~. ous t:'lpes oi vessel ~d equipment exper:~.mentation which is going on , the various research thruscs .. •· ..

August 14, 1979 Tape 793 EC - l ;.tR.

EARRETT: into technology, the inshore progr~e and the assistance programme, the need for better attention or more attention to the marketing of the product and product development, obtaining information on the department's direction as it relates to the existing marine haulout facilities, additional expenses related to further construction, further locations where these were to be located, how they were responding to the needs of the fishermen, whether or not the revenues derived from these facilities were sufficient, primary involvement in the government 1 s direction on establishment of a primary landing facility in Harbour Grace and a refrigeration facility policy as it relates to other locations, the availability nnd the need for further funding for new vessel construction, quite a bit of discussion as it relates to the cost comparison of the construction of vessels as it relates to similar costs incurred in o~er provinces.

Information ~as given in this regard to the effect, basically, that the construction aspects of vessels in Newfoundland are of a much higher standard than those available in other provinces. In Industrial Development, such areas as Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation, NORDCO, Regional Economic Councils, and,in particular, the Marystown Shipyard, received a great deal of attention.

A lot of information was sought and given as it related to ~~e deficit whi~~ was incurred in that shipyard, the necessity for government to have full awareness of the financial position of this and other Crown corporations - and in all probability, a lot of this m.1.ght have been due to ~~e la~~ of response of the board of direc t ors in reporting to the various ministers. There was some suggestion that it might be appropriate that senior civil serv~ts not be made members of these boards of directors.

Under Rural, .'\gricul tural and :,;or~'lern Lleveloprnent, the Loan programme 'N"as fully pursued, as 'N"as the Labrador ~velopment programme, the Jepot p~ogramme, Communit y ~evelopment, Ar~s a.?"J.ci C~afts, ~later a.."1d Sewer, Native ;..ssociations, tl.gric u l tural Production, Land Development, and so on.

August 14, 1979 Tape 793 EC - 2 :1R. BARm:TT: I think there is no need to say further, that in all aspects, the subheads reviewed by this Committee were given a thorough and complete review - SOME HOt<. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARm:TT: - that I do not tnink otherwise could have been achieved, certainly not under the present facilities of this nouse. So I would have to suggest, Mr. Speaker, that this Committee system was, indeed, a very worthwhile system - AN !:!ON • HElo!BER: :.IR. BARRETT: continuance. Thank you very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) White Bay. SOME HON. MEHBERS: .:-!R.

RIDEOUT: Hear, hear! - and I highly commend it in its Hear, hear! The han. the member for Baie Verte - Hear, hear! Thank you, Mr. Speaker • Mr.

Speaker, in rising to make a few remarks in the Concurrence Debate on the Resource Committee 1 as Vice-Chairman of the Committee representing members on this side of the House, I want tc begin my remarks by saying that I think those of us who served as members of that Committee and those of us in the Opposition who served on all the Committees would agree 1 basically 1 to a man ~~at what we saw in the Co~~ttee system was the kind of examination that the Estimates of the various departments of government was the best time, as far as I am con~erned, that those Estimates were ever reviewed since I have been in the House. 50!1£ HON. !·lEMBERS: Hear 1 hear!

MR. RIDEOUT: Now that is not to say, Sir, ~~at there is not room for improvements. I ~~ink the Leader of ~~e Opposition expressed a number of concerns that we have observed

August 14, 1979 Tape No. 794 SD - l MR. T. RIDEOUT: over the last number of days and I think that we ought to be big enough, those of us on both side of the House, ought to be big enough to do something about it. Personally, I think that the concurrence debates,as we see them here yesterday and today,would serve a much tetter purpose, a much more useful purpose, if they would take place in Committee of the Whole 1where ministers would get a chance, an equal chance- te~ minutes interchange - would get an equal chance to respond to the new points that we would bring up in those debates.

I think that thac is an excellent suggestion and I think that both sides of the House, politics aside, oug:1t to be big enough to accommodate that kind of change in the rules for another session. And, of course, it was a new thing, a learning experience for all of us, but I have no hesitation in saying whatsoever that I think the committee system for the first time- it was the first time for all of us- I think it worked well 1 I think the intention of examining the estimates was done well, done diligently by all members on all committees and , speaking for our own, I was quite satisfied with it.

Now, I also want to take the opportunity to publicly compliment the Chairman of this Resource Committee. I think we found him fair and reasonable in all of his deliberations and I do not believe there is any of us on the committee wl·,o could have left •.;hen tne committees wer~ ever with any rancor or any feeling that our rights were abrogated by or degradated from .:oy any actions of the Chairman. I want to go on record as saying that.

You know, we can put policies asi~e for a little while and I blink that the government, the Premier, ought to be complimented for intro<iucing tile cor...mittee system for the first time, in a real sense, in this Legislature .. And I ·.-ould like to see it extended • I would like to see, for e.:< amp le~ the ?~ esource Committee become a Sta nding Cornrni ttee of ~1is House, a committee that would exa mine proposed ~egislat~un zcns

August 14, 1979 Tape No. 794 SD - 2 HR. T. RIDEOUT: in the resource area, for example, a committee that would be able to call witnesses and really delve into any resource legislation brought before this Legislature. And that, + do not think, Sir, is taking away anything from the workings or from the beauty of this Legislature but,I would submit to "our Honour,that it is exactly the opposite.

It is enhancing and helping us as legislators, as scrutineers of the public pur~e, helping us to do our job much better and I think that that is the whole essence of the committee system and in that respect I was delighted with it and I only hope that we can be big enough, men enough, to sort of modify the system, refine it as we go along. It did not work perfectly but I think it was a good start and I would think that we could build on that start and hopefully let it run more smoothly, more effectively in the sessions to come. Now, having said that, Sir, I want to say also that in large

part I think the ministers were very co-operative with the committees ~d so the ministers should be co-operative with the committees. The ministers ought to come before those committees ~asically as humble people looking for the right to spend the amount of money that they are looking for. A:·•d most of the ministers, I think, came with a co-operative spirit.

I mean, ~~e fact that we have information from two or three ministers being circulated around today, information that I never saw before, information that the committee a~ked for, I think is an indication that the con~ittee system worked and that we certainly found more information about what is happening in government then we have ever had an opportunity to see before when,in essence, all we have ever done was debate the whole depar~nt under the ministers' salary. So, I ~'link from that respect also ~~e miniaters must co-operate with the committee; ~n large measure they did this particular time.

There was only one exception and that led to a few bitter exc:,ar,ges one particular night but I believe t:ne ninister in qu.estion, having slept on it for a few ~1our3, ca...~e back t.he next clay in a little bit finer forn and \-/as ZCOG

.\:.~gust 14, 1!179 Tape :~o. 794 so - 3 M.R. T . RIDEOUT: more forth~oming wi~~ information t:"'en he had started off to be the night before . So , I am qui 1:e happy with the way it turned out . :.ow, ;.tr. Speaker, I "'ant to confir.e most of my rtmarks this after noon to ~'le energy policy, tile Hydro policy of the administration. Some of my ot..~er colleagues who were on the cOI!lllllttee will tallc about fishe r ies , ciley will tal:: about lands and forest ,anci they 'i?ill talk about a"-1 the other ~'1inqs, I hope , that time permits t:ilat came !.lp in t.'le committee and are still left outstanding .

Sue I "'ant: eo take a few minutes co talk about m;; particular shado w or res~nsibility as it related to committee 1because I was not satisfied as a member of the committee with the kind of in.formation that the Minister of l1ines and Ener9Y (Mr. L. Barry) in particular provided to our committee 2Cfl7 ..

August 14, 1979 Tape 795 PK - 1 Mr. Rideout: the Minister of Mines and Energy {Mr. Barry), in particular, provided to our Cormnittee. Now I am sorry that I had to say this when the han. gentleman is not in his seat but, Mr. Speaker, I have no control over when the Orders of the Day, the particular Order of the Day is going to be called. And I have one opportunity to say what I have to say and that is today, I will have no other opportunity to speak in the Resource Concurrence Debate because it will be over some time this evening.

So the minister is not here, but I know he will be able to read Hansard, and I am sure he will find out what I had to say, and hopefully do something about it. AN HON. MEMBER: Right . MR. RIDEOUT: Now, the minister made very light the other day when speaking on the LCDC Bill of the fact that, you know, the critic for the Opposition on energy did not even know where Gull Island was versus Muskrat Falls. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I will admit, having read Hansard myself that it was a very poorly constructed question, but to stoop to the lowness in debate to suggest that somebody does not even know where it is at, then it is a new low; jt is certainly something that I have not experienced in this House in the four or five years I have been here. And I would say, Mr. Speaker, for the record 1 that that is immaterial anyway.

Whether I knew or whether I did not is immaterial because what is important is the cost, and that is the point I was trying to make, whether there is a change in government policy and what is the cost to this Province of the particular energy policy that this administration has pursued since 1972. Now in 1978 -well 1 let me start it another way. The minister started to play a numbers game with me the other day, He started to play a real numbers game- and the House; not only me but the House, He tried to get us all confused as far as numbers went when it came to looking at the Lower Churchill development. Now, Mr.

Speaker, two people can play that game; the numbers game can be played

August 14, 1979 Tape 795 PK - 2 Mr. Rideout: by both sides, The minister told the House on Friday that $68 million had been spent in 1975 on the Gull Island project. I have checked Hansard, and I have checked the news clippings, and he told us that $68 million had been spent. And he told us that that investment was now worth $77 million. These were the figures that he gave us, Now I ought to analysis that for a second or twc.

Let us go to the Budget Speech of 1978, The Budget Speech of 1978 1 the Minister of Finance at that time- I believe it is on page eight of the Budget-told us what the Province had invested in the Lower Churchill development up to that particular point in time. And he said on page eight, in his Budget delivered on March 17 1 1978 1 "that in the Labrador

section our Province the major hope is for a construction start on the Gull Island project in early 1979, The targarted date for delivery of power to the Island is early 1985," which I would suggest is somewhat off the track right now 1 "and the construction work on the project will generate 10,000 man-years of employment with about 3,000 men being employed at the peak of construction." Then he goes on to making the revealing thing, "The Province of Newfoundland has already expended great effort and indeed invested $110 million in this critically important project." March 17, 1978, the Minister of Finance 1 in his Budget addressed to this House, tells us that as of that date the Province of Newfoundland had invested $110 million in the Lower Churchill project, The Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr, Barry) representing that particular facet of our development now tells us one thing, the Minister of Finance in March, 1978 tells us one thing.

And, Mr. Speaker, the important thing for us all to remember is not a question of who is right or wronc- that is immaterial - the important thing for us all to remember is that the difference, the difference between those two versions is almost staggering, practically ZCG9

!\Ugust 14, 1979 Tape 795 ?K - 3 ~~ . Rideouc: scagge rin g . The !ormer Minister of Finance told us chat it was SUO mil lio n. The. present Minister of Nines and Energy (Mr. Barry) says i~ was S68 million. That is a staggering difYerence of S42 million . Any simple-minded person can subtract S68 million from SllO million anc know there is a S42 million difference. That is not nickel and dime stuff. What happe.\'led to the $42 million? That is the real question.

That i s what ·.re are trying to find out 1 that is what the COllll!littee was trying to find out1 that is what we have been trying to find out in this Rouse in Question Period: Where was it spent? Row was ic spenc? Nhat was it spent for? Now let me look at it from anocher angle. The ~!inister of Mines and Energy tells us that $68 million is now worth S77 million. The origin al investment, he says, is now worth S77 million . Tha t is a difference of $33 million when compared •·

August 14, 1979 Tape No. 796 MR. T. RIDEOUT: with the figures given us a year ago by the former Minister of Finance. So if they are ooing to play a ~~bers game we deserve to have some answers because we are talking again, · Sir, about very staggering amounts of money. Now what set of figures - this is the real question - what set of figures is correct? I think that in this debate-and ~gain it is too bad ·the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) is not here 1but he has colleagues who can speak for him - the governme~t should come clean, They shou~d come clean once and for all on the Gull Island project.

Was Mr. Hickman right when he said it had cost us SllO million? That is word for word in his Budget Speech a year ago. AN HON. MEMBER: Approximately. MR. T. RIDEOUT: No approximately! The ?~ovince has invested 1 to the point he delivered his Budget Speech he said, SllO million. Is he right? Is the Minister of Mines and Energy right'\vhen he says that the current assets of that project are $77 million< Is he right? If he is right and if his former colleague is right, some'\olhere along the line we have lost S 33 million. That is the crucial question. Now what about the depreciation of the physical assets?

No, the minister would not touch that "ith a barge pole in committee. Now I am no accountant, Sir, but I understand that on those kinds of thinos ~here is zuch a thing as depreciation of those physical assets - depreciation of the physical assets and there is appreciation of a number of the other assets. So if the Stephenvillelawyer would listen, ~r. Speaker, he might learn something. So : I am suggesting to the House that there is a nigger in the woodpile here somewhere.

We have never received any answers to those questions 1 and the fact of the matter is, Sir, that the Bechtel :!>.eport 1 which the minister gave us here a few days ago, t..;hic:, <; ... ·as r:.0!".: :::r-~.=: ::.ror;!=:erted to 9overnment in October 1978 1 not quite a year ago, the Bechtel report gives a different set of figures altogether ZC11.

August 14, 1979 Tape No. 796 SD - 2 ~1R. T. RIDEOUT: So we have got the figures of the former Minister of Finance, SllO million, we have got the figures of the present Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L. Barry), $69 million he said, which is now worth S77 ~illion 1 and on top of that we have got the figures of the Bechtel Report which was done in October 1979.

And they tell us, they tell us in Table 73-,.;:-tich any member can have a look at, it was tabled here in tl-!e House - they tell us that as of October 31st 1978, not quite a year, almost a year ago, S86 million was piled up in assets in the Lower Churchill ~velopment project, S86 million was the current assets of the Lower Churchill Development Corporation. P~d they tell us that the current value of those assets is $80 million.As of August 31st a year ago there was $86 ~illion spent and that $80 million was still a real asset.

No•·· that fi<T'.,re 1 they say1 includes interest of almost $18.75 million, $18,653,000 as a matter of fact. That figure includes $18.75 million of interest. And they also go on to tell us that $3.5 million of that was interest during the construction period and that Sl5.5 million was interest built up since the project was suspended back a couple of years ago, hack in the Fall of 1975. So here '"e are, 'lr.

Speaker • we have ~~ree very divergent sources of information on exactly what has gone one to this point in time. •le have a !-'inister of "ines anr "'rr.,-cr•• '·>,c ,, ill not even look at it, '-'hO sort of gets his dandPr ur because somebody got the gall to ask those kind of questions, who even questions whether you have got the ability to ask those kind of q'..lestions- that is were we are. l'le have three divergent sources of inforrna·~ion on what has ta.lcen place on the Low·er Churchill Development up to this point in time. We ;,ave got the former ~<inister of Finance f~'r.

Eickman) who tole' us '-:arch 17th, 1978 t:!'1at it haC cost t:s ~llQ r.illicn. ~·!~ !:ave qat the 9resent ''inister of '~ines and =n~rc;y ~ ... rh.o tala us in ~Or.r'ittee,anC told us in this Fouse that it had cos-:. us :":;63 r:-illion hut .:_t ~.·.ras !'~.ow 1t!Or-t~ I 2C12

l'.ugust 14, 1979 Tape 'To. 7'l6 SD - 3 'lR. T . RIDEOUT : 577 millioni and we have got the Bechtel Report who told us October 1978-after the ::arch 31st Budget had beer nresented to this House, by the way, it is interesting to no<:2-':i1at we had invested $86 million and that $80 million of it was current in assets. Now, that is th~ 2(13

August 14, 1979 Tape 797 EC - 1 !'.R. RIDEOUT: three widely ranging positions that we have on the Lower Churchill Development at this particular point in 1:ime. And, Mr. Speaker, I think we ought to know1 before this debat;; is finished, exactly where we are. w~at is the true story? Now, having pointed that out, I want to say to the House, here is what is absolutely crystal clear. There can be no argument from either side of the House on this particular point. In 1977, the NewfoWldland Government made a loan of $78. 3 million to Gull.

Island Power Company 1 which was a wholly­ owned subsidiary, by the way, of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. In 1977, in two instalments, March and June, the Governmerct of this Province loaned that company $78.3 million - money, by the way, that we had borrowed on the bond markets a year or so before that, on which, I understand, we paid 10 per cent interest. But in 1977 we finally loaned that money to the Gull Island Power Company. Since that 1there have been three fiscal years go by -we had 1977, 1978 and now we are into 1979 - and we are paying to the bond markets where we borrowed that money, Mr.

Speaker, almost $8 million a year in interest. In fact, 10 per cent - $7.8 million - we are paying almost $8 million a year in interest on the original Gull Island loan. So 1 in fact, over the past three years we have spent $24 million, about $8 million a year, on servicing that debt. Now if we add last year's interest on to what Mr. Hickman told us - he told us it was $110 million as of March 17th last year- if we add last year's interest on to that it is now $118 million. A.!ld the present Hinister of Mines and Energy (Hr. Barry), Hr.

Speaker, becomes the $118 million man, because he was the one who made the whole premature decision back in 1975 to set off what I have often referred to as 'the gunpowder plot' on both sides of the Strait. Now 1 t."lat is crystal clear. l'ie borrowed t."lat money - the Province is on the ilDok for it. And the ow,er thing that is crystal clear is t.,.-:,at the only money in play in all tl1is sad start is r.taney advanced t.o Gull Island ?ower Cor:1pany by the people of t..'lis Province. Tnat is the only 2(14

August 14, 1979 Tape 797 EC - 2 MR. RIDEOUT: money that has been in play in that project up to this particular point in time. Now we may eventually get some of it or all of it back - I hope we do. I have no hesitation about saying that at all. But, Mr. Speaker, the terms of the Gull Island loan, the terms of the loan that this Province negotiated when we turned over the $78.3 million to Gull Island Power Company, says specifically in the terms of the loan that if the project is not reactivated by 1980, the loan will be forgiven.

If the project is not reactivated by 1980, the $78.3 million that this Province gave the Gull Island Power Company will be forgiven, and that is contained in the latest report of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. Any member who wishes to have a look at it, it is public knowledge. That is what the terms of the loan say. Does anyone know in certainty whether the project will go ahead by 1980 or not? I will say this to the House, Mr. Speaker, that the minister was very vague when he was before the Committee. He suggested there was some reasonable doubt as to whether it would go ahead.

He suggested it was not very probable that it would go ahead before the end of 1980. Therefore, under the terms of that loan, it will be forgiven. That is what the terms of the loan szy. As a citizen of this Province, a shareholder, Mr. Speaker, my money and the money of everybody else in this Province,made under the terms of that loan to Gull Island Power Company, can be forgiven.

And in view of the study and reassessment that is going on now under the Lower Churchill Development Corporation - and let us not kid ourselves, that is what it is at this particular point in time, a study and a reassessment to make further recommendations; we do not know when they are going to report - every taxpayer in this Province stands to lose $78.3 million, because the terms of the loan are such that if the project is not reactivated by 1980 then the loan to Gull Island Power Company can be forgiven.

And we, the people of this Province, will ~~erefore continue, if the loan is forgiven, to pay almost $8 million a year in interest for God knows how long. I do not know what the terms of the loan are. Probably fer all of my lifetime we will contiro.ue to pay that $8 million. And that is not all. At this moment, 2C15

-" August 14, 1979 Tape No. 798 GH-1 HR. RIDEOUT: the Gull Island Power Company, Mr. SpeakE.r, has no money. The Gull Island Power Company has no income, so Newfoundland Hydro pays the interest on the Gull Island loan for the Gull Island Power Company to the Government of Newfoundland. Now, I hope that is not lost on members of this House. Gull Island Power Company has no income whatsoever. ~bout S8 million must come out of the general revenue of Hydro to pay the interest on the loan that its wholly owned subsidiary owes to the people of this Province. Mr.

Speaker, that is equivalent to Term 29, and we have had members on the other side of the House talk about renegotiating Term 29, That is exactly what that is equivalent to. The people of this Province own Newfoundland Hydro, We own the largest share of Newfoundland Hydro. If that company were earning money, it would ue turning money over to the people of this Province. Now here is what it has to do now under this particular set of circumstances: Now it must take $8 million a year from its earnings to pay the interest for its subsidiary on the Gull Island loan.

That is indirectly coming out of my pocket and every other taxpayer in this Province, because Newfoundland Hydro has to take that out of their operating expenses. It is our company, our money is used. What is happening, Mr. Speaker, to put it in a nutshell, our money is used to pay interest on the money we borrowed to give those people in the first place. Now, there is no other way to look at it. It is an $8 million annual operating expense that Hydro would not otherwise have to wrestle with.

It is an $8 million annual operati~g expense that Hydro otherwise would not have to find were the premature blunder of 1975 not committed. It is an $8 million annual debt t hat Hydro would not otherwise have to grapple with in reaching and maintaining its desired equity ratio of 1.2. I do not know if anybody read the document that they presented to the Public Utilities Board a few days ago, but they say-and they must by law, by the way, through

an act passed in this legislature 2C16

August 14, 1979 Tape No. 798 GH-2 MR. RIDEOUT: couple of years ago- strive to maintain a debt equity ration of 1.2, and that $8 million that they must pay in interest certainly has a very drastic effect on that. Looking at it in another light, Mr. Speaker, it is an $8 million annual debt that must be considered and it is part of the reason that Hydro is currently before the Public Utilities Board seeking rate increases so as to achieve that debt equity ratio of 1.2.

In that light, ~very consumer of electricity in this Province is paying through the pocket for the 1975 blunder that was created by the present Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry). We are almost shellshocked~ If you come to sit down and look at the figures, Your Honour, it is almost enough to shellshock you when you see what has happened to us in this particular deal. To put it in a nutshell, we are on the back of $78.3 million loan, and that is the only money that came into play in the whole fiasco, the thing that went on. We are on the back of a $78.3 million loan.

The terms of the loan say that if the project is not reactivated by 1980, the loan will be forgiven,and,on top of that, the interest that Newfoundland Hydro currently pays government on the loan has a decided negative effect on its debt equity ratio. Now, that is where we are. Those three things are very important. We are on the back of the loan. In the beginning, yes, we borrowed it and let them have it.

If the project does not fly by 1980, the terms of the loan say it can be forgiven;and on top of that, the $8 million a year that Hydro pays us as interest on that loan has a very negative effect on its debt equity ratio which forces it, Mr. Speaker, I would submit to the House, to have to go to the P.U.B. more often for more substantial increases than it otherwise would h ave to do. Now, that is the true picture as I see it, having researched it over the last number of days. ;nd that is why I am upset we did not get answers to those questions in Committee.

That is the legacy of the $110 million man 1 'N'ho, this year, is the 2(17

rlUgllS~ 14, 1979 Tape No. 798 GH-3 MR. RIOEOOT: $118 million man who, next year, will be the $124 million man. It qoes up $8 million every year . That is ~he fruit of the 1975 gunpowder plot that was perpetrated on the people of this Province, and that is where we are ::ive years lat:.er and that, Mr. Speaker, I would submit:., is a shameful se t of facts that the minister and the government are responsible for . Now, hopefully in the end. down the road, I hope that the people will come out olca_Y. 1 think it deserves a thorough accounting. 1 do not believe that:. there is any room for ifs, ands, buts and ors. If there is any issue , if there was any ZL18 •· •·

August 14, 1979 Tape 799 EC - 1 l1R. RIDEOUT: issue before the Resource Committee where there is no room for ifs, ands, buts or ors, it is this one because it has cost ~~e Province dearly, it i5 going to continue tc cost the Province dearly 1 and I would hope that somebody speaking for the administration will get up and tell us the cold, hard facts of this situation. If they can refute what I have said, fine, but I hope they will tell us the cold, hard facts, because we ought to know. The facts have been long overdue. The facts are not out yet and there was no evidence of them coming out in the Committee. Mr.

Speaker, I think we have a right to know what has happened, what has taken place and why we are now fooling around, monkeying around with three particular sets of figures and we cannot really get a grasp of what has happened in the four or five years previous. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: (Butt) MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The han. the member for LaPoile. It is even worse than that, Mr. Speaker. The situation outlined by hlY colleague is even worse, ten times worse than my colleague indicated.

We know nothing at all about what is involved in the interest and the money borrowed to nationalize the Churchill Falls Corporation. We have not been able to get accurate figures on that situation. I understand ~ow it is well up over $200 million, G~at L~e interest alone on that blunder, that colossal blunder of nationalizing the Churchill Falls Corporation is costing the taxpayers of this Province - the interest - anywhere beb•een $20 million to $30 million a year. That is not to be sneezed at, that colossal blunder. That is why, :1r.

Speaker - my hen. friend just gave one of the reasons why - Newfpundland Hydro is asking for an increase in electricity rates. It is not because of the increase in oil, although that may be part of the reason. The o~her part of the reason is the blundering of L~is government, L~e reason why L~e consumers of electricity in this Province have to pay -c.l1rough the nose for their electricity ra~es. T.~e $110 million that was thrown away on setting off t:.~ese two firecrackers on either side of the Strait of Belle Isle is 2C19

August 14, 1979 Tape 799 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: one of the reasons why the Newfoundland cons~r has to pay more for his electricity. And the other thing is the colossal blunder made in nationalizing the Churchill Falls Corporation. Taking it over, I think the government had to borrow $165 million. They had to pay interest on the interim financing at the bank. And the interest now, Sir, runs, I would say, in the vicinity - it is probably closer to $30 million than it is to $20. But for heavens sake, will the minister get up and tell us what it is?

And is the money to take care of the interest on this $200 million coming from Newfoundland Hydro or is it coming directly out of the Public Treasury? We would like to have answers to these questions, Sir. And, you know, Mr. Speaker, yesterday I fired out a series of eighteen or twenty questions to ministers. Just to show you, Mr. Speaker, how clever the government are, how skillfully they have silenced the Opposition in this House in their clever way, and they are now getting a free ride 1 we cannot cross-examine ministers in even the seventy-five hours that we had. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: MR.

HORGAN: to any committee meetings. MR. NEARY: Of course you can. No, we cannot, Sir. You would not go Mr. Speaker, we were e:ected to serve in this House, Sir, and not in the board rooms of Hr. Crosbie's buildings or 11r. Dobbin's buildings. AN HON. ~!EMBER: (Inaudible) • MR. NEAllY: We were elected to this House. MR. MORGAN: You boycotted (inaudible) • HR. NEARY: And, Mr.

Speaker, it does not make any difference if I went to ~~e Co~~ttee meetings, if I were on ~~e Committees, if I boycotted ~~em or not, I still maintain that as an elected representative of the people cf this Province it is the right of every member in ~~is House, on the floor of ~~is Chamber, to cross-examine ministers and to ask questions wi'"'~en ·He are doing the l::stinates .. 2(20

August 14 , 1979 Tape 799 EC- 3 MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) a great buddy of one of your colleagues ever there. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, let the word go out to the people of this Province that we can ask questions in the half hour we !:lave now when they are moving the concurrence of these Committees, we can ask questions with no hope at all of getting any answers, none at all, Sir. You cannot cross-examine mini.sters. MR . .J • CA.:a'ER: Why did you not come to the Committee meetings? MR.

NEARY: In the first place, I was not on a Committee , and in the second place, I had other far more important things to do than to waste my time. My job is tO protect the Public Treasury right here on the floor of this House. MR. MO:RGAN: no more than all your colleagues. MR. NEARY: You are no more than anybody else, That is right, Sir. ~taybe one day every melllber who is now sitting in this House may come to the sudden realization that they were elected to serve in this House and not in the tunnels and the dungeons of Confederation B'1.1ilding. If these Committees, Mr.

Speaker, could meet year round. with unlimited time, then I would say they could serve a very good purpose. But look what is happening now, Sir. Look what is happening in the rush 2{ 2"1

t.ugus~; 14, 1979 MR. NEARY : middle of Summer. }IR. J. CARTER: :-m. N"EARY: :-':R. J. CARTER: MR. NEARY: Tape No. aoo G~J-1 ~o get the Rouse closed in the It is a lie. What is it? Lies . Lies? This is lies? ~ . Speaker , in the rush to gee the Eo_use closed the Commi~tees wound up ~~eir affa irs i n very short order and now we are here in the House and we cannot get answers to questions. t;e can put the ques t:ions, hall an hour we have , we can put: a lot: of quest:ions in a half hour. 1;e are not in Col!Uilittee of t.'le Whole. Your Honour i s si cting in the Chai r.

All we can do is debate, as if it was a Budget deb ate, a Throne Speech debate or a~y ordinary debate in the Eouse. ~o wayl And the Leader of the Opposition was right: when he raise .d this matter earlier this aft:ernoon. I would have made it more forceful. It is dictat:orial , it is ar~itrary , it is meant to muzzle t~e Opposition . 1•1R. HORGA..'II: MR. NEARY: and whether - ~IR. !~ORGJ'..N: MR. t-IEAAY: Do all your coll eagues agree with you? ~tr. Speaker, I happen to ~ave an opi nion, (Ina udJ.ble ) . - t:he hon . gentleman agrees with me, whe~'ler ~~ hon. member : or Torngat ~ountains (Mr.

Warren) agrees with me, I happen to have an opinion, and I am going to express it. I am going to express it , and that: is my right in this House . well , I have not said it strong enough yet . This is very cleverly , very cleve r ly designed ::o muzzle the Opposition , to t:estrict debate in this House, t:o eliminate the opport:unicy for members to con crol the powet: of the purs e , of the public spending. I can st:and here now, ·..re have six hours . At SlX o ' clock this evening I can fire out all the questions I lil<:e, from no .. · to six o • cloc!c, w!->ich -..·ill 2( 22

August 14, 1979 Tape No. 800 GH-2 MR. NEARY: have used up one and a half hours of Committee time. We have six we can debate in this House. I can ask the questions once and will not get an answer, at six o'clock, bang, she is gone through, she is gene through. HR. MORGAN: MR. NEJ\.RY: MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: Ask a question of me and let me answer it. Mr.

Speaker, I asked - How many questions do you want answered? - I asked 18 or 20 very important questions yesterday that were not asked in Committee, not asked in Committee, and one of the· members on the government side, stalling for time, got up and made his maiden speech as if he was speaking in the Throne Speech, tne member for St. George's (Mr. Dawe). Now, that is getting information, that is getting answers! ~d the han. member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) got up and made a fool of himself as usual, as he usually does every day. MR. STAGG: I was good yesterday. MR. NEARY: Yes, the hon. gentleman was good.

The hon. gentleman is not a minister; we were asking questions of ministers. The Chairman of the Committee today spoke, oh, he enunciated philosophy and policy as if he was a minister. What a misuse of power, Sir! •:'hat a misuse of power, what an abuse of power, telling us all about all the wonderful things the government is going to do, as if he was a minister. SOME HON. MEMBER: ·")h, oh! M..'<.. NEARY: So, I say, Sir, it is a waste of time right now. It is a waste of time and all we are doing is rubber­ stamping, rubberstamping.

I thought for sure when we came back into the House that we would be able to cross-examine ministers the same as we did in Committee of the ~~ole. Now our 75 hours is further eroded, further eroded, Sir, AN HON. MEMBER: Right. 2C23

August 14, 1979 Tape No. 800 GH-3 MR. NEARY: And, Mr. Speaker, the laughing hyena down there thinks it is funny, very funny. Democracy, I would say, democracy is in pretty bad shape. Democracy is in pretty bad shape in this Province. After yesterday's performance by the hon. gentleman, Sir, and I hope hon. members' Hansard will record that the little snide remarks and the innuendoes started yesterday with the President of the Council (Mr.

Marshall), the President of the Council, and the day before with the President of the Council and yesterday with the President of the Council, and hon. gentlemen will remember talking about Mr. John C. Doyle, the hon. gentlemen had to have a flick at me about that, so I hope hon. members will remember who started this, who started it. MR. MORGAN: HR. NEARY: we have it again now. They say he takes himself seriously. Now, there we are, Mr. Speaker, here Well, if hon. gentlemen want to get down and roll in the mud, I will get down and roll with them. 1-IR. MORGAN: SOME HON. ~~ERS: MR. MORGAN: anyway . MR.

NEARY: He takes himself too seriously. Oh, oh! College law (inaudible) saying Well, Mr. Speaker, what I am saying, Sir, is this, what I am saying is this is a farce. I believe in committees. I think we should have reform. I think the committees should meet year-round. There should be no restrictions placed ori the committees. I think we should go through the estimates here in the House, cross-examine ministers and let the committees go off and ;,old their meetings and do as they please. ?.ut the business of the House should stay in this House, and my hon. friend knows what I am talking about.

I have checked with all the constitutional people I can, who I can reach on the face of this earth so far, and I am told ZC24

August 14, 1979 Tape 801 I B-l MR. NEAaY: it is the only jurisdiction where you cannot cross-examine ministers during the debate on the estimates and that is what we are debating, MR. HICKEY: Yes,you can. MR. NEARY: No,you cannot, Sir. MR. HICKEY: In th.e Committee, NR. MEA.lU': In the House I am talking about,~ere the business has to be done. MR. STAGG: In Committee you can. ~lR . NEARY : Yesterday 1I put eighteen or twenty questions to ministers and at six o'clock , bang, the reports went through and I nev er got one answer from one mini ster.

Now, Sir, I am goL~ g t o put ano ther question to the Premier as a result of an answer he gave me t oda y to a question that I -asked him some tim e ago in conn ection with Eastern Provincial Airways . iW !iON. ME~!BER : The Question Period is ove r. MR. NEARY: Oh, the Questio n Peri od is over 1 !-lr . Speaker. !-!ow could you be so igno rant:? How could one be so igno rant of the parliamentar y process ?

How could Crosbie's r epres entat:ive in the couse be so igno ran t of the parliamentary process , the British Parliamentar y system where you ask questions in the Bouse and you try to get informacion from ministers in the Bouse? Thac is where the bu s ine ss is done . But: anyway I am going to talk about the hon, gentleman ' s boss now and perhaps the hon. gentleman knows whac I am coming to and that is why he is making his snide r e.'l1arks. !·lR. MORGAN: ;>,nothi!r vicious atc.a cit , r s uppose . Anot..1e.r a tta ck on a personality . MR. NEARY: No , Sir, this ,,.ill not be a vicious attack.

Thi s will h e factual . ! have in front of me he total file from the Ontario ana Quebec Securities Commission i n connection with the E?~ cransfer, t·IR. AORGAN : (Inau dible) om: of the House aga ~:1 (inau~lel . ou_-c of the House . ~IR . NEAll.'! : ~tr . Speak er, -ould I have silence ,please? • a'l1 fed up wit:h t.'le ~ee.!:" baro:'! from Eonavist.a, z·_zs •·

August 14, 1979 Tape 801 IB - 2 l1R. SPEAKER: (Simms) Order, please! Order, please! The han. member has ~~e right to be heard in silence. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Your Honour. I had to ask Your Honour for the protection of the Clair. This is a very significant item, Sir, and more significant than members realize. I asked the han. the Premier one day to tell me about the EPA transfers and if the government had any involvement, and the han. the Premier, the han. minister who is now sitting there and ~~e hon. minister to his left, the ~linister of Fisheries (Mr. li. Carter), the Minister of Transportation (~lr.

Brett), the President of the Council (!1r. Marshall) and all the other ministers who were in the previous administration)were in on this. They were all in on it. They all participated in the decision. HR. HICKEY: On w·hat? MR. NEARY: On the EPA deal. The transfer of ownership of EPA had to be approved by the Cabinet. :-!R. STAGG: A fly-by•night. A fly-by-night. MR. NEARY: Pardon? MR. STAGG: A fly-by-night. a R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, ~~e hon. gentleman should know after being Deputy Speaker of this House that he has to go to his own seat. l1r.

Speaker, all the snide remarks and all ~~e sarcasm and all the smear tactics and all the c~aracter assassinations from tl1e other side of the House is not going to stop me. I am going to say what I have to say and I am going to ask the questions ~~at have to be asked on behalf of the people of this Province. If they want to use their smear tactics and ~~eir character assassinations that they learned from Hr. !1oores and Mr. Crosbie and Mr. Hickman, well let them go ahead.

But the people in the gallery who are listening to me right now, I ••ant to tell them t.."lat $6 million of ~~eir dollars, tax dollars that were given to EPA on a guarantee from t..~is government~ were not protected in Octobar of last yea~ when the government net in Cabinet ir: the £ight :1 Floor of t:."lis ~uildin<; and allowed the ownership of EPA to be transferred from :·lr. Andre·~· .::~osl:li2 to c·lr. Earr y Steele. 2f..'26

August 14, 1979 Tape 801 ra- 3 MR. W..ARY: Mr. Speaker , in the last paragraph of the answer that I got from the Premier today he..>-e is '"'hat he said, "Earlier'', he ?aid, " in 1978, Eastern Provincial Airways sold one of its· Eoeing 737's. The proceeds - listen to this , Hr. Speaker - the proceeds from the sale were used in pan; to retire the debt sec.ured by the plane ane in par to improve the financial positicm of EPA," li6ul.d hon . gentleme n who sat in the cabinet say that tha t is a fair statement'?

It came right from the Order in Council, the directive from the Cabinet 1 that is where that quote came from . Would hon. gentlemen say that that is what happened to the sale of that Boeing 737? Well , I will tell hon . gentlemen,just to show you how deceiving this statement is - first of all 1 Si r, l et me say that the government extended its guarantee of S6 million to EPA. 'l'hat was one of the things they did, the $6 million long term debt. They extended the term of it from the end of 1978 to the end of 1981. 2t27 ..

August 14, 1979 Tape 802 EC - 1 I-IR. NEARY: And here is what they said when they did it: "Terms and conditions attached to ~~is guarantee will insure that E.P.A. remains a strong Newfoundland based company and that substantially .J.ll of its administrations, accounting and maintenance endeavours will occur within this Province." Well, that is wishful thinking, when they already had allowed 90 per cent of the operation to be moved over to Halifax, when they allowed that training centre to be built in Halifax. MR. ROBERTS: It might have all gone if ~ewfoundlanders had not got wise to it. l1R. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, 90 per cent of it is gone now. They only have a skeleton crew as far as the air crew is concerned in this Province. MR. HICKEY: Have we not got (inaudible) • MR. NEARY: But anyway, I am not going to deal with it. I dealt with that before in the House. But what I want to deal with is the statement made in the Cabinet directive, "The proceeds from the sale were used in part to retire the debt secured by the 'plane, and in part to improve the financial position of E.P.A." My

interpretation of that, Mr. Speaker, is that they obviously had some debts incurred in connection with that aircraft that ~~ey paid off 1 or partly paid off, and they used ~~e balance of the profit made on the sale of that 'plane to improve the position of E.P.A. What garbage! What hogwash! l•lhat a gigantic bluff! This is anything but true, l1r. Speaker. Do hon. members know what they did? E.P.A. paid themselves a big dividend - that is what ~'ley did! And how do I know that? I got it from ~'J.e records of the Ontario Securities Commission. Listen to what ~~ey say here. MR. MORGAd: On a point of order, Nr.

Speaker. :IR. SPEAKER: (Simms) A point of order, the hon. the member for Bonavista SouL~. :·!R. ~-10RGAN; I know it is a netN proceCure in the Eo use in dealing with the reports of the ?arious Committees it ~s the first time doing it in the Eouse, but ~~e han. gentleman is now involved 2(28

August 14, 1979 Tape 802 EC - 2 MR. MORGA..'<: in a debate supposedly involving the report of the Committee on Resources. Yesterday the House dealt with the report on Government Services which dealt with Transportation. I fail co see, Mr. Speaker, the relevancy of the E.P.A. as an airline.i~volving the Resource report from the Committee dealing with Resources. It should have been dealt with yesterday when we dealt with the Government Services report dealing with Transportation. MR. NEARY: We are dealing with Industrial Development, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: (Simms) With respect to the point of order, it is very difficult at times to rule on the matter of relevancy and the reference books will indicate that the hon. member speaking will get the benefit. I would remind the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) that perhaps he is treading on the area of irrelevancy, but at the same time, I would caution him to keep his remarks pertaining to the matters we are now discussing under the Resource Committee. that Thank you, Your Honour.

We are discussing, Sir, I presume, Industrial Development, of which under this head comes E.P.A. in case the hon. gentleman is not bright enough to comprehend what I am talking about. Listen to this, Sir. Here is what the Ontario Securities Commission said: "Results for 1978 include gain on a sale of a Boeing 737 aircraft of $2.317 million." In ot."ler words, they made a profit off the sale of that aircraft after taxes - or, they say, $1.91 per share. Now, here is the letter they wrote in connection with it: "lve confirm t."le following sent to you." This is to t."le ~ntreal Stock Exchange.

"The board of directors of !::astern Provincial Airways Limited has today declared a dividend of ~1.80 per Series A shares, i.:>eing the divider:d and arrears on its Series A preferred shares to October 1, 1978, coge~~er wit~ all arrears of dividends on its Series S preferred s!.ares .. It has also declared a special divide:1cl of r.inety cer:ts :• ~~o· ... · ;..·hat ~earing did that have on i~prcvir-~g t...-.,e po3i tion of L. P . . -;..? It mig;'l. t i1ave i~proveci t~e fi!'!ancic.l position of S=. ;.ndrew Crosnie. ZC29

August 14, 1979 Tape 802 EC - 3 .l\N f!ON . ME:·!BER: What is the dat:e (inaudible} . MR. MORGA.'l: (Inaudib le ) attack Andrew Crosbie. :-I:R. NZAR'i: 'I'ne non . gentltMnan asked 1re for the dat:e. The date is very significant also, by tn.e "Nay, Nove!!lbe.r 22 , 1978, and i£ the hon. minister will recall, I said in t:his oouse some time ago, from NoveE.ber loth to November 22nd a number of very significant decisions were ~~de down on ~~e 8~~ Floor of ~s building. One '"'as the nbi tibi takeover - November 16th, 1978 -and t:he other one was the rental of office space from .i\ncirew Crosj;)ie in tha t white e~ephant building he had downtown , November 22nd, and now Zt30 •·

August 14, 1979 Tape No. 803 SD - l i1R. S. NEARY: we have the transfer of EPA on November 22nd. HR. HICKEY: What is the hon. gentleman charging? MR. S. llEARY: I am saying, Sir, it is too much of a coincidence. And what I am charging now, I am charging the administration now with not protecting the Public Treasury. Mr. speaker, the divieends, the Cividend on that - ;1R.. T. HICKEY: On a point of order, Hr. Speaker. ;1R. SPEAKER: (Simms) On a point of order, the hen. •·!inister of Social Services. MR. T. lUCKEY: This is the point I wanted the hen. gentleman to come out with and he has no;~ come out with it.

He accuses the administration of not protecting the public interests. I want to go on the record of the House, whatever about the rest of my colleagues, and say that I have not, Mr. Speaker, participated in the passing of any minute in Council, .. hile I was a member of the former administration, which in any way, shape or form gives credence to anything that the hen. gentleman said.

Each minute in Council stands on its own merit. :f he is now talking about something that happened after the fact, then I suggest, Your nonour, that his charge against this aaministration or members of it . ..,ho were members or participants in it in the for~mer administration is certainly unfounded and it should not be allowed, saould not be allowed to cast reflections on ministers,presently,who were members of the former administration in this manner. A.."l HON. c·IE;1BER: Hear, hear. :·!R.

SPEAKER: Wi~~ respect to the point of order, I would rule that it is a difference of opinion as to facts and an opportunity for the hon. minister to explain or clarify remarks. The han. mer~er for LaPoile. in effect i..s this; t:O.at there wa.s a profit o£ $2.3 million ma...le on t...""le sale of t...'La. 'C aircraft.. T.::e Newf~--:ldlanJ. .~overn!nent silG.;.lU. :1w.ve

August 14, 1979 Tape No. 803 SiJ - 2 NR. S. NEARY: taken that $2.3 million to retire part of the debt of $6 million that was owed to it by EPA. The Newfoundland Government is the Cabinet, the Cabinet of which the hon. gentleman was a senior minister. Instead of that, according to this Cabinet Cirective- the hon. gentleman, I do not know if he sat in on the meeting or not; I would have to have the minutes of the meeting of Cabinet - the Cabinet decided to extend this ~6 million guarantee to EPA and to allow them to pay a dividend, They were duped; they were hoodwinked!

They were told that the money that the profit made out of the sale of this 737 Boeing was going to be used to retire the debt on the plane and to improve the financial position of the compan y when,in actual fact 1 all it did was fatten the purse strings of those who had held the highest number of shares in that company. The government should have taken their pound of flesh. MR. J. CARTER: Will the member say this outside tb.e House? c1R. S. NEARY: :rr. Speaker, I have said it.

Oh, what a cowardly way for the hon. gentleman to behave . - '.liill I say it outside the House: I have said it outside the House, I will say it inside the House, I will say it on the roof, do'ln in the basement, any place the han. gentleman wants me to say it, I would say the ministers were negligent in there responsibility, They did not protect the Public Treasury as they should.~a I would like to know why? I have my reasons. SOME Hot I. :1El·IBERS : Oh, oh! :·!R.

S. t<'EARY: No, it was taken - ilnswer to verb.;.l ~ue3tion given to me today by the Premier,who told me he took the information, he did not give me the Cabinet directive but hi3 special assistant over L~ere had it. ''Earlier in 1978, Sa..; tern Prov ir.cial Ai~tn·ays sold one of its aoeing 737- The proceeds from ~he sale -in ot.!1er tNorCs, tt.e profit; just li.:;ten- ..ter~ used. to r~tire ~J.le C:e~t secureJ l.,~· t.:·1e plan