role="main" class="main-container container js-quickedit-main-content" id="main-content">

September 24, 1996

36th Parliament, 1st Session

< Previous sitting day

Next sitting day >

Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

L097 - Tue 24 Sep 1996 / Mar 24 Sep 1996

ABSENCE OF SPEAKER

LEGISLATIVE PAGES

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

HEALTH CARE REFORM

DURHAM BOARD OF EDUCATION

DONOVAN BAILEY

DURHAM BOARD OF EDUCATION

HEALTH CARE

ALZHEIMER COFFEE BREAK

TRUCKING SAFETY

DURHAM BOARD OF EDUCATION

NIAGARA-ON-THE-LAKE

LEGISLATIVE INTERNS

JOHN WHITE

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

GOVERNMENT'S AGENDA

ORAL QUESTIONS

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

EDUCATION FINANCING

PROTECTION OF PRIVACY

FAMILY SUPPORT PLAN

YOUNG OFFENDERS

HIGHWAY IMPROVEMENT

RENT REVIEW

SPEAKER'S CONDUCT

MOTIONS

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS / AFFAIRES D'INTÉRÊT PUBLIC ÉMANANT DES DÉPUTÉS

The House met at 1334.

Prayers.

ABSENCE OF SPEAKER

Clerk of the House (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): I beg to inform the House of the unavoidable absence of the Speaker.

LEGISLATIVE PAGES

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bert Johnson): Please join me in welcoming the sixth group of pages to serve the 36th Parliament of Ontario. I want to introduce them to you one at a time, and maybe we would show our affection for them at the end. They may just step forward to be recognized:

Candace Bullock, Kenora; James Cameron, Etobicoke-Humber; Kevin Cooke, Lake Nipigon; Jonathan Coutts-Zawadzki, St Andrew-St Patrick; Sarah Dawson, Willowdale; Megan Findlay, Grey-Owen Sound; Natasha Kanerva, Durham-York; Stephen Kingerski, Sudbury; Sarah Kolasky, Parkdale; Alex Lambruschini, Scarborough East; Michael Mali, Bruce; Melissa Morgan, Lincoln; Geoffrey Nelson, Mississauga South; Trevor Nelson, St Catharines-Brock; Lyle Reid, Hastings-Peterborough; Tracy Reynolds, York East; Andrea Robinson, Wilson Heights; Nancy Rumble, Hamilton East; Caitlin Salter MacDonald, Ottawa East; Jeremy Schembri, Durham West; Laura Sisco, Guelph; Eddie Staines, York South; Richard Wiersma, Brant-Haldimand.

How do we show our welcome to the pages?

Applause.

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): Mr Speaker, on a point of order: It may be a minor point, but it's a major point to the new page from Sudbury and his family. His name is pronounced Stephen Kingerski, and we welcome him warmly from Sudbury. Thank you.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

HEALTH CARE REFORM

Mr Michael Gravelle (Port Arthur): Next week, the Health Services Restructuring Commission will return to Thunder Bay to render its final verdict on the future of health care services in our community in northwestern Ontario.

It is difficult to articulate in the short time I have today the level of concern and anxiety that has gripped our community since the initial report this past June. In fact, it would be accurate to say that over the course of the summer Thunder Bay residents have been charged with a fury and an anger unmatched in recent memory.

The good news is that the community turned this anger and fear into action in an attempt to show the commission that it simply had got it wrong. Thousands of people responded to this call to arms by phone, fax, letters -- which I have right here -- petitions and at public rallies. I believe they have forced the commission to revisit its initial decision and made it recognize that the people of Thunder Bay will not idly sit by while their health care needs are denied.

The big question is whether the commission will now understand that Thunder Bay and northwestern Ontario need more acute, chronic and long-term beds to serve all of northwestern Ontario or that psychiatric services and facilities must be enhanced and assured.

Finally, the Minister of Health must understand that he cannot remove himself from this final decision. His fingerprints are all over the restructuring process, whether it's in Thunder Bay, Sudbury or Toronto.

The people of Thunder Bay and northwestern Ontario have spoken loud and clear. On Friday, October 4, we'll find out if the commission and this government have been listening.

DURHAM BOARD OF EDUCATION

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): Mr Speaker, I rise today, through you to the House and through the House to the people of Ontario, to express my great dismay and disappointment that this government, in its haste to discredit the education system in Ontario and its haste to paint a picture that is totally untrue and false about an education system that has served all of us and our families well over the last few years, has not found the time to recognize the outstanding achievement of the Durham Board of Education, which has been recognized just recently by an international body for excellence in education.

As a matter of fact, it was announced that it had won an international award. The Carl Bertelsmann Foundation is a German organization that annually seeks to identify outstanding public education systems around the world. The Durham Board of Education was the only North American finalist. It won out over other finalists from Scotland, the Netherlands, Norway, Hungary, Switzerland and New Zealand, and all this government can do is cast aspersions. It has no time at all to recognize that there are some wonderful things happening in Ontario under the guise of education.

I believe an apology is owed to all of those who work in the education system, and a voice of confidence in and congratulation to the Durham board for winning this wonderful award and putting Ontario on the map from an educational perspective.

DONOVAN BAILEY

Mr Terence H. Young (Halton Centre): I rise today to recognize Donovan Bailey, double gold medallist and resident of Halton Centre in the town of Oakville.

This summer Donovan Bailey struck gold, not once but twice, first in the men's 100-metre sprint and then as a member of Canada's four-by-100-metre relay team. In the process, he broke the record for the 100-metre sprint and touched the hearts of millions across the country. This past weekend Donovan was welcomed home by thousands of friends and fellow citizens in an unprecedented display of pride in the accomplishments of this Oakville hero.

Donovan is a role model for all Canadians, but especially our youth. His accomplishments, his attitude and his drive to succeed speak to the potential within all of us to achieve our goals through hard work, commitment and perseverance. I've had the pleasure of meeting Donovan and I can testify he is a genuinely nice person. With Donovan what you see is what you get.

I ask all members present today to join me in congratulating Donovan Bailey not only for his accomplishments at the Olympic Games but for giving all of us something to be proud of. Our children can do no wrong if they adopt people like Donovan as their role models, and that should give all of us much hope for the future.

It is also important to note in the Legislature for the record that Donovan Bailey is undeniably, officially, absolutely, at 9.84 seconds, the fastest man on earth.

DURHAM BOARD OF EDUCATION

Mr Richard Patten (Ottawa Centre): I'd like to join my colleague from Sault Ste Marie and also recognize the Durham Board of Education for being named by the Bertelsmann Foundation as the district "that represents the best framework for the desired development of schools." This international prize was set up by the German media giant to promote innovation in the public sector.

The Durham board won out over nominees from six other countries on criteria which included concern for students, pedagogical innovation, testing, quality assurance and parental participation. Congratulations to all the people connected with the Durham board.

Secondly, I'd like to recognize another esteemed member of the education community, the Minister of Education. The minister deserves an A+ for achieving what he set out to do a year ago, which was of course to invent a crisis in the educational system in order to justify certain actions. The minister has successfully met all of the elements necessary to create a crisis.

He has sent out a series of negative messages; he has created confusion, mistrust and cynicism among educational stakeholders in the system who now fully believe that he will circumvent the processes that he created in order to implement slashing the educational budget to fund the 30% tax cut; he has created a crisis of confidence in public education and, finally and most seriously, he has created a scapegoat, the classroom teachers.

Their alienation could not have come at a more inopportune time, the commencement of a new school year. How the minister could be so insensitive and create such discouragement among those who play the most crucial role in education is beyond --

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bert Johnson): The member's time has expired.

HEALTH CARE

Mr Floyd Laughren (Nickel Belt): The Health Services Restructuring Commission has studied the Sudbury health care system and is now ready to bring down their recommendations. In fact they were ready to make their recommendations today but have now delayed publishing them by one week.

What is the reason for this artificial delay? The people of Sudbury are anxious to know the fate of their health care system. I'll tell you why there's a delay; it's for no other reason than pure political manoeuvring. The Premier is visiting Sudbury this Friday and the spin doctors in his office do not want any negative publicity or any controversy surrounding the Premier's visit; therefore, the report is being delayed until after the Premier visits Sudbury.

We are sceptical about the entire Tory health care agenda, and hospital restructuring is no exception. The Tories have broken a major election promise that they would not cut health care. In fact they've cut $1.3 billion from hospital budgets alone.

Next Monday the commission will be revealing their binding decisions in Sudbury, but guess what? The hospital administrators and the media will be told of their decision before the MPPs and regional council. We have a bigger stake in the outcome of the decision than the Tory spin doctors and we have a right to be there when the announcement is made, not afterwards.

The commission could very well bring down recommendations that are good for the Sudbury health care system, but they are getting off on the wrong foot by treating the local elected representatives unfairly.

ALZHEIMER COFFEE BREAK

Mrs Helen Johns (Huron): Every day millions of people across the country break for coffee. On September 20, 1996, Canadians made their caffeine count by hosting and participating in the Alzheimer Coffee Break in their communities.

I was pleased to be part of the Huron coffee break last Friday. Donations from every cup of coffee poured benefited the Alzheimer Movement of Canada. This organization is committed to research and providing information and support to caregivers.

There are 250,000 Canadians with Alzheimer's, and that number is expected to grow to 750,000 by the year 2030. It is estimated that the cost is approximately $4 billion each year to care for Alzheimer patients.

On September 6 I chaired an historic meeting with the Alzheimer Association of Ontario. It is the government's intent to develop a strategy to deal with patients with Alzheimer's and dementia and their families. Approximately 50 people participated, including patients, caregivers, health professionals and researchers. I am looking forward to the report from the Alzheimer association.

I would like to thank all the volunteers and caregivers who give their support daily to the people with Alzheimer's.

TRUCKING SAFETY

Mrs Elinor Caplan (Oriole): On Monday, August 26 this year a horrible tragedy occurred on Song Meadoway in the riding of Oriole. My constituent Kim Wong was in the basement of her town house when a runaway gravel truck struck her house, killing her and injuring her two sons. The Wong family and their neighbours in the Meadoway community have been traumatized by this event, and I know that we all give our condolences to the Wong family. Many families, however, especially children, are afraid to go into their basements.

My constituents have asked me to bring this issue before the Legislature and the Minister of Transportation. As MTO is aware, the company that operated the vehicle in question has had more than 500 citations since 1991. My constituents believe, as I do, that if the ministry had better enforced their regulations, this tragedy might have been prevented.

At the very first opportunity I will introduce a petition from hundreds of constituents in the riding of Oriole. We are urging this government and the Ministry of Transportation to view the issue of truck safety inspection more seriously, both through legislation and, more importantly, strict enforcement. The Meadoway community will participate with the Ministry of Transportation when safety issues that affect our community are decided.

I would like to acknowledge the response from the Family Service Association of Metropolitan Toronto, with assistance from the Ministry of Community and Social Services, for excellent community trauma counselling. Furthermore, MTO responded quickly to the request for timely repairs to the structural damage caused by this accident.

Once again, I know that all members of this House will express their condolences, along with me, to the Wong family for this tragic accident.

DURHAM BOARD OF EDUCATION

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): Along with all members of the assembly, I express congratulations to the Durham Board of Education, which won the prestigious Carl Bertelsmann Foundation award for excellence over nominees throughout the world.

Applause.

Mr Wildman: The response of all members is welcome, because it belies this government's insistent claims that Ontario's public education system is broken. There are 61,000 students and 6,000 staff in the Durham board and they deserve to be recognized for this very high achievement. Instead, the Minister of Education repeatedly denigrates public education in Ontario in an attempt to justify enormous funding cuts that hurt classroom education for all Ontario students.

The Carl Bertelsmann Foundation annually seeks to recognize outstanding public education systems around the world. The Durham board was the only North American finalist and won out over finalists from Scotland, the Netherlands, Norway, Hungary, Switzerland and New Zealand.

The board and its staff deserve credit for this achievement in the face of Conservative cuts and a Minister of Education who continually badmouths the education system.

What's broken with the education system? It's time to stop manufacturing a crisis and acknowledge the successes that our education system has met. It's time to end the war of words with Ontario teachers and with boards of education. Public education in Ontario, properly funded, will produce more champions like the Durham Board of Education.

NIAGARA-ON-THE-LAKE

Mr Tom Froese (St Catharines-Brock): I am pleased to announce that on Saturday evening, September 21, 1996, the town of Niagara-on-the-Lake once again bloomed its way into the ranks of Canada's most beautiful towns with populations between 5,000 and 20,000 people. On behalf of the province, I'd like to say congratulations to Lord Mayor Michael Dietsch and all of the town's citizens, not only for winning, but for pulling together as a team. That is what the Communities in Bloom trophy is really all about: combining environmental awareness, landscape originality, heritage preservation and community involvement.

I am told that the town now hopes to get ready for the Communities in Bloom international competition. On behalf of the province, I wish them well.

LEGISLATIVE INTERNS

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bert Johnson): I'd like to inform the members of the Legislative Assembly that we have in the Speaker's gallery today the 1996-97 Ontario legislative interns: Christine Czapnik, Andrew Hastings, Anthony Jonker, Rina Li, David MacDuff, Christopher McDermott, Annamie Paul and Charles Vincent. Please join me in welcoming our guests.

JOHN WHITE

Mr Bob Wood (London South): I wonder if I might ask the unanimous consent of the House for a few moments to pay tribute to the late John White, former member for London South.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bert Johnson): Is it the wish of the House? Agreed.

Mr Bob Wood: I rise to pay tribute to the Honourable John Howard White, who passed away on September 5, 1996. He was the member for London South from 1959 to 1975 and the longest-serving MPP for this riding. He served in many capacities: committee chairman, chief government whip and a minister in both the Robarts and Davis governments. He was a major political force in both administrations and was considered a potential successor to Premier Robarts, although when the time came he decided not to run for that position.

In London he was known as an innovator, a promoter of new ideas, a hard worker for his community and, perhaps most important, a champion of the underdog. Our province is the better for John White having been one of us. I know that the hearts of all members of this Legislature reach out to Bea and to his family.

Mrs Marion Boyd (London Centre): I too have the honour to have the opportunity to rise today to honour John White, the colourful, dedicated and versatile former member for London South. He is remembered and revered in London, the place he made home and the constituency he served with great distinction in this Legislature for 16 years.

First elected in 1959, John White has the distinction of having held more cabinet posts than any other representative from southwestern Ontario, and maybe even in the province, before his retirement in 1975. He served as government whip, Minister of Revenue, Minister of Colleges and Universities, Minister of Industry and Tourism, Treasurer, Minister of Economics and Intergovernmental Affairs and the chair of cabinet for many years.

John White had character, style, humour and dedication. I met him on only one occasion, during the year 1971-72, when he was Minister of Colleges and Universities and I was the personal assistant to the then president of York University, David Slater. Many of you will remember that year as the first major economic crisis which faced our growing university sector. John White was responsible for carrying out the government's limiting of university grants, a policy which was universally decried by administrators, faculty staff and students alike.

His skill, his willingness to listen to critics, to answer their questions and yet to remain firm in his resolve to fulfil his responsibilities to his government and his ministry have remained with me to this day and would, I suggest, provide a role model for many of us here in this place.

John White tackled everything with verve and vigour, with thoughtfulness and skill. His wife, the former Beatrice Ivey, told the Free Press after his death that "He liked to expedite things, to make things happen, but it was never for himself. It was important for him to serve the people."

From John White's service with the Royal Canadian Navy during the war years, his work as a representative in this place, his many positions in cabinet or his later contribution as the president of the Ontario Heritage Foundation, he was, in the very best sense, a public servant. He believed in the ability and the necessity of government to do good things on behalf of the citizens of this province. He is remembered as a faithful constituency representative, being in his riding every week and meeting the needs not only of his own constituents but those of his dear friend and Premier, John Robarts, when the Premier was not able to travel to London as often as he wished.

John White was also a businessperson, having educated himself with a bachelor of arts, a business diploma and a master of arts in economics from the University of Western Ontario. He worked for the Steel Company of Canada, for Canadian Industrial Supply Co Ltd, and in his later years chaired the board of trustees of First Canadian Funds and AngloGibraltar Insurance Group. He was a founder of the Canadian Development Corp.

John White saw no contradiction between his reverence for public service and his involvement in business and industry. He admitted, however, in his characteristic way that he missed the Legislature, confessing he missed "the hoopla, the camaraderie, the arm-twisting and the deal-making."

I extend the most sincere condolences of my leader, the New Democratic Party and this place to Mrs White and her daughters, Martha and Emily. Your family no doubt made many sacrifices so that John White could represent his fellow citizens of London so well and so faithfully as an MPP and as a long-serving cabinet minister. Be assured that his contribution is not forgotten and is gratefully acknowledged here today.

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): On behalf of the Liberal Party, I extend our condolences to the wife and family of John White, who was a man who served, as has been mentioned, with distinction the people of London South. The fact that he had a number of cabinet posts, a wide variety of cabinet posts, is a clear indication of his understanding of the responsibility and role that government plays and the faith, of course, that Premier Robarts and Premier Davis had in his abilities.

He was an individual in politics who was not afraid to stir controversy, who was not afraid to put his views on the line, was not afraid to ruffle feathers even within his own caucus and his own government, and that speaks well for him.

We wonder, I suppose, how people will be viewed once they pass on. He was viewed as a character, and a positive character, in an obituary that was found in the Toronto Star very recently. It has been mentioned that he was a member for 16 years, which is certainly a matter of distinction in itself, a clear indication of the support of the people of London South for him and of the general support that he enjoyed in the London area.

It also mentioned he was politically skilful and "regarded by the opposition at Queen's Park" -- and I say this in a very nice sense, because each party must have people in this role -- "as the government's chief hatchet man," the columnists wrote. That really means he was the person in the government who would carry the tough battles in the Legislative Assembly. On the day that happens, members of the other party believe that is something to disagree with.

But placing it in perspective, one always admires those who are prepared to carry the tough arguments for the government and to be tough when it's necessary in the House.

Something members would find amusing and something which perhaps has been an age-old circumstance, it says, "With a fast tongue, a raucous voice and a ready wit, he was appointed party whip" -- the party whip of the government will find this amusing, as will all -- "to keep the party's backbenchers in line when they became lazy and listless following fat majority wins in the 1960s." For any chief government whip, that is always a role: how to motivate members of one's own very large caucus. I'm sure that many who have had that position could learn from John White.

So a person passes on, at the age of only 71, who has served in business with distinction, in politics, and subsequent to politics in the very important area of president of the Ontario Heritage Foundation, once again remembering the history of this province and wanting to preserve what is best.

When I look at many of the ideas he brought forward, in today's context he would be considered to be very much a red Tory. In those days he was probably the moderate, middle-of-the-road person -- the Premier smiles. He believed in land-banking and a 50% tax on speculative real estate profits and an imposition of a tax on energy consumption, so he would be considered in those days probably to be a moderate, a red Tory today.

In any age, no matter when we sit in this assembly, he is an individual to be admired, and we all express our appreciation for his service and our condolences to his family and his many friends and supporters.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

GOVERNMENT'S AGENDA

Hon Michael D. Harris (Premier): I'm pleased to take this opportunity to update the House on our government's activities since the Legislature last met in June and also to look ahead to what we'll be doing as a government over the next few months.

There is no doubt that job creation has been and will remain the number one priority for our government. While our unemployment rate fell recently to 8.5%, the single biggest month-over-month drop since 1984, the human cost of this level of unemployment is still unacceptably high. That is why in our government's very first budget we cut income and payroll taxes and that is why both the ministers of finance and economic development have all been meeting with potential investors and job creators to spread the message that Ontario is open for business.

Earlier this month, I travelled to France, Germany and the United Kingdom. The Minister of Finance also was in Zurich. I'd like to tell the House that our message that Ontario is on track to being competitive on taxation, on regulation and on legislation was very well received by the business community and investors in those countries. Investors and job creators are very excited about the potential market that exists in Ontario for them.

We stressed that Ontario is a cornerstone of an integrated, interprovincial and international trade market within a day's drive of more than 120 million North American consumers. With an annual purchasing power of about $3 trillion, the market access for the Toronto area is larger than --

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bert Johnson): Order. Come to order.

Hon Mr Harris: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. As I was saying, with an annual personal purchasing power of about $3 trillion, the market access for the Toronto area is larger than the areas around Boston, Chicago, Detroit or New York. As part of this government's ongoing effort to bring jobs to Ontario, the Minister of Economic Development, Trade and Tourism led sector-specific business delegations to Houston, Texas, and to San Jose, California. He also went to Mexico to reinforce and strengthen our NAFTA partnership.

There are signs that our plan is working. I'm pleased to say that during the first two months following our tax cut, 82,000 net new jobs were created in the province of Ontario.

Just last evening I attended the opening of a beautiful new marketing, sales and distribution centre for Mother Parker's tea and coffee in Mississauga.

During the last quarter of 1995, our GDP grew by 4.7% at annual rates. During the first six months of this year, our merchandise exports rose by 5.7%.

Auto production in the second quarter of 1996 reached an all-time record level, and in the same quarter housing starts rose by 14.2%.

Inflation in July was 1.2%, the eighth consecutive month it has remained below 2%.

Now, according to private sector forecasters -- not government forecasters -- Ontario is poised to grow by 3% annually during the next four years -- more quickly, they say, than any of the G-7 industrialized nations. There is still, however, much work to be done.

Over the next few months we will continue to meet with job creators, both here and abroad, to make them aware, not only about our competitiveness as a jurisdiction, but also about the other efforts we are undertaking to make Ontario the jurisdiction of choice for jobs and investment, efforts such as making government more efficient and effective through our ministries' business planning process; making government more open and responsive to the public, with our referendum initiative; focusing our education system on quality in the classroom, with an emphasis on schools that teach and on kids that learn; ensuring that our health care system is --

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker: I'm a patient man. I would ask for your indulgence and your order. And if you can't give it to me, then I will exercise my authority.

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker: Order.

Hon Mr Harris: -- ensuring that our health care system is protected by focusing our resources and meeting our $17.4-billion commitment; protecting Ontarians through an emphasis on effective correctional institutions and a crackdown on serious crime; addressing environmental issues, including smog reduction; protecting our vulnerable through changes to a number of our support programs; and caring responsibly for Ontario's children.

As we begin this fall sitting, I invite all members of this Legislature to work with us to continue to help bring fiscal sanity to our public finances and to bring jobs to this great province. The hope, the opportunity, the prosperity that those jobs bring, both for today and for our children, will ensure a bright future for Ontario. Thank you.

Mr Monte Kwinter (Wilson Heights): I am delighted to respond to the Premier's essay on, "What I did on my summer vacation."

We have a situation where the Premier has gone to Europe, has told potential investors of the merits of investing in Ontario, and I find it somewhat strange that he gives the impression that for the first time ever a government is open for business and it's there, encouraging people to invest in Ontario, particularly given the markets that he visited: the UK, Germany and France, which have traditionally, next to the United States, been the major investors in Ontario.

I think it's important that we understand and that we realize that when you talk about some of the economic indicators there are some serious deficiencies, and I'd like to give you an example. Notwithstanding that the automotive sector is showing some increase, the bulk of that production is going to the United States. When you take a look at the automotive sector in Ontario, other than add-on investment, which has been made to protect the investment that is already here, there has not been a new greenfield investment in the last six years.

When you take a look at people who came to Ontario to look at whether they should invest -- I'm talking about BMW, talking about Mercedes-Benz -- they opted to go to the United States. So we have a situation where we are, there's no question about it, competitive in the automotive sector because of the investments that were made years and years ago, but obviously we are not competitive, other than add-on investments, today for greenfield investments.

When you highlight some of the advantages for coming to Ontario -- let's just suppose that an advance team came to Ontario today to decide whether or not they were going to invest. You have to understand that most people who invest in Ontario from abroad are doing it to use Ontario as a springboard to provide production to be shipped into the United States. We have a mature market here and the growth, if you take a look at the growth that's happening, is fairly stagnant.

But you highlight all of the advantages, and I can tell you, if an advance team came and was reading in the newspapers, it would see that the education system is on the verge of chaos, not because of what it has done, but because of what it's liable to become. We have a situation where in the health care system doctors are threatening to withdraw services; hospitals are threatening to close their doors. We have a situation where your government on this very day is probably going to be bringing in legislation to reduce environmental controls and to reduce the quality of life in Ontario.

We have a situation where people are constantly complaining that they don't have access to highly skilled employees. We have a high unemployment rate but still a serious shortage of people able to provide employment services in the high-tech area. You talk about protecting the vulnerable and caring for Ontario's children when both those sectors are under increased pressure because of activities of your government.

So notwithstanding your grandiose statements about why people would invest here, I suggest to you that we have a serious problem, and unless this government addresses it, we are going to continue to lose potential investors.

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): Just to follow up on my colleague's comments on the job front, Premier, you are letting the people of Ontario down on your job promise. You promised, when you ran in the campaign, that you would see 145,000 jobs a year created. That was in your Common Sense Revolution. You put out a budget barely six months later indicating that you were going to miss that mark dramatically.

Now we have the figures for the first eight months of 1996, and what do we find? Dramatically fewer jobs, 22,000 fewer jobs created in Ontario in 1996 than in the same period in 1995. Your government is performing far worse than we did a year ago, Premier. We find your own report indicating 7,000 more young people out of work in the first eight months of 1996. We find that employment in the manufacturing sector is barely up. You have misled the people of Ontario. You said there would be 145,000 jobs created during the campaign --

The Deputy Speaker: I would ask the member to withdraw that.

Mr Phillips: I would withdraw that comment and say that the document that you produced during the campaign --

The Deputy Speaker: I thank you very much.

Mr Phillips: I would say that the document that you ran on misled the people of Ontario, promising 145,000 jobs when you're coming nowhere close to that.

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): In response to the Premier, only a Conservative government that is visiting more and more dismal numbers on the people of Ontario would try to spin this kind of document. Only a mean-spirited Conservative government would try to take credit for an unemployment rate of 8.5%, when any economist worth his salt in this country knows that more and more people are dropping out of the workforce, more and more people are disappearing.

The government itself has commissioned a study to find out what's happening to people who are being forced out of the social assistance system, because they know they're not getting jobs. They're disappearing out of the system; they're disappearing out of the workforce. Only a Conservative government would try to spin it that the real unemployment rate of 30% among people under 30 is somehow good news.

There is a tremendous contradiction here, and maybe the Premier can explain some of it. The Premier went to London -- he's reporting here a bit on his trip -- and talked about the Ontario eduction system. It's incredible what he had to say. He said that Ontario's education system is one of the best in the world. I happen to agree with that. I wish he'd talk to his Minister of Education, who says that our education system is falling apart. This is an incredible contrast.

The Premier says Canada's top 10 high-technology companies, in terms of revenue, are all Ontario-based and he says it's because of our education system. He says that the University of Waterloo, McMaster University and the University of Toronto, for example, rank among North America's top computer, electrical and mechanical engineering schools. He says that the University of Waterloo is a favourite recruitment place for high-tech companies.

He says that the 1996 World Competitiveness Report ranks "Canada's education system ahead of the US in terms of ability to meet the needs of a competitive economy." Why doesn't he talk to his Minister of Education who says that our education system is falling apart?

The Premier, before he tries this spin, should go talk to a few of the economists who even endorsed his campaign a year ago, because they say that whatever jobs we're enjoying right now are totally unrelated to his government's policies. Whatever job growth we're enjoying we are enjoying because the United States is into a presidential election. In presidential elections the interest rates drop in the United States. They put the gas pedal to the floor and they create jobs. The only sectors where we are creating any jobs are in those that are exporting right into that US economy. It's got nothing to do with your economic program -- nothing.

I note that the Premier says the government is going to do good things for children. I happened to be watching the CBC's National last night. Your government has set a record because your government has moved more children out of apartment buildings, out of dwellings and into hotel rooms than any government ever in the history of Canada. You have situations where five children are living in one room in a hotel -- five children in one room. The United Nations condemns that, and you stand up here and try to take credit. Go hire yourself some more spin doctors, because this will never pass.

Mr Gilles Pouliot (Lake Nipigon): This is a government that's on the hook, that has said 725,000 jobs, which it cannot and will not deliver. This is a government which, upon returning from Europe, borrowed $6 billion when the need for this fiscal year is only $3 billion. This is a government that has no economic plan beyond two years, that is literally flying by the seat of its pants. This is a Premier who, while addressing the press, states that we're on our way to $8.11 billion, referring to the budget deficit, yet last week tells us that he's $5.11 billion short. They have no credibility. They have no plans. They've been very lucky and that's all.

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I find it passing strange indeed that the Durham Board of Education has been awarded an award of international excellence and no one in the government has a thing to say about it. No one in the government, not even the members who represent Durham, have anything to say about it here today in the Legislature.

The Deputy Speaker: That is not a point of order.

ORAL QUESTIONS

HOSPITAL RESTRUCTURING

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Leader of the Opposition): My first question is for the minister responsible for closing hospitals. If there is one thing that has characterized your term in office, it has been an unprecedented grab for power that would give you, and you alone, the ability to close our hospitals in a desperate bid to find the $1.3 billion that you have already taken out of the hospital budgets.

You have tried to wash your hands of this messy business of shutting down our hospitals by setting up your so-called independent hospital restructuring commission. You somehow wanted the public to believe that you had nothing to do with the hospital closures that were coming. Those cowardly tactics are completely unacceptable and they are now only too transparent.

We have seen this summer that you are calling the shots without any question on hospital closures. You presented a secret report to your supposedly arm's-length hospital restructuring commission and in that secret report you instructed the commission to close an additional four Metro Toronto hospitals on top of the 11 hospitals already recommended for closure or amalgamation. You wanted to go even beyond the district health council in shutting down hospital beds and access to health care for people in this province.

Minister, will you admit once and for all to the people of Ontario that you are at the helm of this destructive project? Will you take the responsibility and admit that you are the one who's driving the bulldozer through Ontario's health care system? You're making the decisions that are going to shut down hospitals in this province.

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Health): The honourable member is well aware that a commission has been set up and that it is, with respect to its decision-making processes and the decisions it will make, at arm's length from the government. I thought we had agreement from all three parties. I've read the quotes many times from both the Liberal Party and the NDP about the need for hospital restructuring.

I remind the honourable member that we're the last province to go through restructuring, that hospitals have amalgamated in every other province except Ontario. In Winnipeg, when 500 beds were closed and services were amalgamated into hospitals in 1992 and 1993, we actually saw an increase in the number of patients who were able to be served by that system after restructuring. We saw more dollars into front-line services, better services, more surgeries, greater access. That's the goal of hospital restructuring. That is the goal the commission has in mind.

You know the people on that commission because they've served for your government and they've served for the NDP government, and they are of the highest calibre. I have complete confidence that they will make the right decisions for a better and more accountable health care system in this province.

Mrs McLeod: We're talking about "processes of restructuring," the words the minister likes to use. We're talking about a Minister of Health trying to shift responsibility for the provision of health care to the people of this province, about a Minister of Health making secret reports to his own commission and trying to deny the very existence of those reports in a way that is less than honest with the people of this province.

My question relates to the fact that this minister made a secret report to his commission, and when it came to light, his office first attempted to deny the very existence of the report. Then they said if it did exist, there was nothing significant in it.

We know that it existed, that it was significant, that it took two months of intensive review and several full-day staff retreats to complete your secret report and that it states very clearly where you, the Minister of Health, stand on the health council's recommendations for Metro hospitals: that you recommend even more closures, more losses of hospital beds, more denial of access to health care.

Minister, I ask you how you can continue to claim that your handpicked commission, the commission you set up, the commission that you staff with your own staff members, is an independent commission, when you make secret reports to direct it.

Hon Mr Wilson: I think the confusion arises here that a reporter had done a story about a report. It was not, as it turned out, the report that went to the commission. The report that went to the commission, the data provided to the commission, is in the public domain, so there is no secret report. I remind you in the case of the Metropolitan Toronto District Health Council study which was made public last November by the district health council that even at that time the data were two to three years old. It was actually two and a half years old.

By the time the commission gets to looking at Metro, which I understand it's looking at now, the data are at least three years old. The ministry has been providing, as it does in the case of all of these studies, updated data at the request of the commission.

So there's no secret report and the data are available. In fact, much of it comes from the district health councils themselves. They either give it directly or the ministry bureaucrats provide it.

Mrs McLeod: You are the Minister of Health. You are responsible for managing access to health care that is critically needed by the people of this province, and I say to you that you are being less than honest in your plans for delivering health care to people in this province.

Come to my community of Thunder Bay, which is on the verge of a health care crisis because of the recommendations of your commission, my community, where you did make a secret submission to the commission, where you said you were going to make it public but you haven't chosen to make it public because of some sort of legal problem you have discovered. Come to my community, where it was absolutely bizarre to hear you, a Minister of Health, say that you expected the commission to treat you and your report just as it would the report of any private citizen.

Minister, do you understand that you are not a private citizen? You are the Minister of Health. You are responsible for making these decisions. You are responsible for the financial bottom line. You're responsible for taking the $1.3 billion away from hospitals that's driving the loss of hospital beds, and you will be ultimately responsible for longer waiting lists for surgery and for the closure of emergency rooms and for people being denied the care they need. The veil of secrecy is completely unacceptable. Will you stop your secret dealings and deal openly with the people of Ontario on this critical issue?

Hon Mr Wilson: On this particular issue, both the Premier and I have been extremely clear. We know that in three and a half, four years' time, when we go back to the doors of the people of Ontario, they will hold us accountable for what has occurred during the time that we have been in office, but unlike the naysayer across the floor here, I have complete confidence in Duncan Sinclair and the members of the commission that they will make the best decisions without political interference, and if you're suggesting political interference here, I can tell you, you are dead wrong.

Those ladies and gentlemen who make up the commission are getting paid $1 a year. They are spending most of their time -- and they are very busy people in their private lives -- trying to do what's right for health care in this province, and they don't need jabs from you. They need your support to restructure a system which, all three parties have agreed in this House, and it's on record on Hansard, is at least 10 to 15 years overdue with respect to restructuring.

We are propping up buildings that are half-empty right now. We owe it to the taxpayers to amalgamate those hospitals, get those administrative costs down, get rid of the waste and duplication and the gaps in service and drive those dollars to front-line services so we can perform more surgeries and look after more people as they need the health care system. That is the goal of restructuring, that is the goal of the commission, and it doesn't need political pandering on your side.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bert Johnson): New question, the member for Fort William.

Mrs McLeod: Mr Speaker, on a point of order: This minister must have a new dictionary that defines "political interference" if he doesn't think a secret report from a minister to a supposedly independent commission is political interference --

The Deputy Speaker: I'm sorry, I didn't hear who your question is to.

Mrs McLeod: I haven't placed it, Mr Speaker. I will proceed to do so.

EDUCATION FINANCING

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Leader of the Opposition): My second question is for the minister responsible for cutting classroom funding. Minister, three weeks ago, the students of this province returned to school and they faced the damaging effects of the $400 million which you have already cut from education budgets. Fewer teachers, larger classes, less resources, more portables -- that's what students are finding education is all about in Mike Harris's Ontario.

Minister, given that your $400 million in cuts are clearly being felt in the classrooms this fall, how can you even consider slashing another $600 million to $900 million from the schools of this province?

Hon John Snobelen (Minister of Education and Training): I want to thank the Leader of the Opposition for the question. Let me see if I can make this very clear to the leader. I am not, and my colleagues are not, willing to ask the students of Ontario to pay for their own education by adding to the debt of the province. We believe that there's a responsibility to create an environment that those young people, when they've finished their schooling, will have the opportunity to enjoy a prosperous Ontario and a good job market. So we are doing the responsible thing.

I have been disappointed by some of the responses to our request to school boards to reduce their expenditures by 1.8% last year. I know most of the people in Ontario have seen reductions of a much larger magnitude in their workplaces and in their homes, and any of the plans by any of the individuals in our school system that will affect children in our classroom are unnecessary and unfortunate and this government will not tolerate them.

Mrs McLeod: Minister, I'm positively afraid to even attempt to imagine what our education system would look like if you took over the full control that you seem to want.

But I do wonder whether or not you have actually visited a classroom this fall, whether you've talked to teachers, whether you have any idea what the effect of your cuts have already been, whether you have any idea how large the classes are. I wonder if you have any idea that students in our high schools are in classes of 40, that we have classes of that size even in chemistry classes, where students are working with dangerous equipment. I wonder if you've been into the junior kindergarten classes where there are 28 students, which is well beyond what is safe for the management of four-year-olds.

I wonder if you've talked to the parents of special education students in board after board where special education's been cut and their children are not going to get the kind of support they need.

There is no question that your cuts have hurt children in the classroom and that children are going to be left behind. If John or Jane can't keep up in the classroom, there is not going to be the special support from the teachers that would be necessary for them to move ahead.

Minister, I have to wonder why you are so hell-bent on cutting hundreds of millions of dollars from education just to pay for your tax cut, just to hit your arbitrary goal of taking $1.2 billion out of the education system, that you don't even seem to care what happens to kids along the way. Minister, is hurting kids really a necessary part of creating the crisis you seem to want to destroy public education?

Hon Mr Snobelen: I'm disappointed in the tone of the Leader of the Opposition today, but I'm very, very pleased to have the opportunity to respond. First of all, I have had an opportunity to be in the classroom this fall. I think the Leader of the Opposition knows that I spent a good deal of my time last year in classrooms across the province. I intend to continue that because what's happening in the classrooms is very important to me, and it's important to me personally to see what is happening in our education system.

The Leader of the Opposition brings up an interesting point. She brings up the point of large class sizes. A lot of parents in this province wonder, when we have the lowest student-teacher ratio in Canada at about 15 to 1, when we have that low a student-teacher ratio, why it is that class sizes in some circumstances are so large. The question the parents of Ontario are asking me, and the question that I intend to answer to them, is: Where are the teachers?

Mrs McLeod: The minister may be disappointed, but I'm a lot more than disappointed. I am worried, I am heartsick, I am angry at what is happening to students in classrooms across this province. I am angry and I am heartsick that we have a Minister of Education who does not understand what Ontario education is about and what we have achieved in Ontario education. He doesn't even understand what it is his cuts are doing to education and to students.

I don't think the minister understands what's at stake here. I don't think he understands that this isn't some kind of balance sheet of a local business as he attempts to run the entire education system like the so-called business that he wants it to be. I don't think he understands that this is about kids' needs and about providing the support that kids need to learn, and it's about the future of our children, and it is worth investing in. It is not something that you try and take $1.2 billion out of, just for the sake of hitting his personal financial target.

Minister, I believe that students and parents in this province feel betrayed. They trusted your Premier, Mike Harris, when he promised that our children and their education would not be hurt by his revolution and they want to know what happened to his promise not to cut classroom education. Minister, as you talk glibly about slashing another $600 million out of our schools, can you tell the people of Ontario what happened to the Mike Harris promise not to cut classroom education?

Hon Mr Snobelen: I think it's obvious to the people of Ontario that this government intends to keep its promises to the people of Ontario, every one of them. I want to assure the Leader of the Opposition that she need not worry, because the record of this government over the last year is very clear. This government over the last year has made more quality improvements in our school system than any previous government in one year.

May I point out to the Leader of the Opposition that we have put forward the EQAO, the Education Quality and Accountability Office, an independent agency that will test the quality of education in the province for the first time. We now have a College of Teachers, a college that will represent the professional interests of teachers and the public interest. We have initiated the most important secondary school reforms in my time in this province, looking for the real needs of our students in the future. We have doubled our commitment to technology partnership programs in the province -- all quality initiatives, all designed to improve education in the province of Ontario.

But let me assure the Leader of the Opposition and the parents in Ontario that there are two things that this government is not willing to have happen: We are not willing to have our children educated in 1950s-style classrooms and we are not --

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bert Johnson): The Minister of Education.

Hon Mr Snobelen: Unlike the previous two governments, we are unwilling to send our children a bill for their own education.

PROTECTION OF PRIVACY

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): My question is for the Premier. The Premier will know that earlier this summer a woman named Sandi Thompson brought a complaint of sexual harassment against the Speaker. The press has reported that Tory insiders were shopping Sandi Thompson's résumé around Queen's Park a week before the Speaker's lawyer released it. In other words, it would seem that a deliberate attempt was being made by Conservative insiders to smear the reputation of an alleged victim, perhaps an attempt at damage control.

Your government came into office promising to defend victims, but it would seem that some Conservative insiders have been trying to do exactly the opposite in shopping around the complainant's résumé. I want to ask the Premier, are you aware of these allegations and have you made any inquiries of your staff or other Queen's Park Conservative staff about their involvement in these activities?

Hon Michael D. Harris (Premier): No, I'm not aware. I've never heard any allegations of that, and no Tory insider I know.

Mr Hampton: This was on September 14. This is a press release, an

article that appeared in the Toronto press. It would appear in all of the press summaries that all of your members get and that your office gets. I'm sure that someone in your staff would have noticed this and brought it to your attention. I find it hard to believe, Premier, that you haven't been informed of this, that you wouldn't know of this, that your staff, who must be concerned about this, wouldn't have brought it to your attention.

I ask you again, are you aware of this? Is anybody on your staff aware of this? Have they made any inquiries as to who the Tory insiders may have been who were shopping around this résumé and smearing the complainant?

Hon Mr Harris: No, I have not, and I would assume if there was a shred of evidence to it they would have brought it to my attention.

Mr Hampton: This is passing strange. This reminds me of -- what was his name? -- Richard Nixon. "I hear no evil, I see no evil, unless you thrust it under my face."

Let me quote the Premier in the Legislature on November 23, 1992. At that point you were expressing support for the federal rape shield law. You said: "We look at the federal rape shield law, supported by us all, brought in to protect victims of rape. The reason? There are people who think it's okay to try and smear a woman by raising her past or raising information irrelevant to the case at hand, particularly when she has become a victim."

Now, at other times it appears that you took these kinds of situations quite seriously. It appears that you spoke out on them quite specifically. How is it, Premier, that this could appear in the public press, that it could make its way into Queen's Park Today, which is the press clippings that you get, every other member of this Legislature gets and I would say probably everybody on your staff gets? How is it that this could appear in Queen's Park press clippings and that you didn't take it seriously and nobody on your staff took it seriously? How could that be?

Hon Mr Harris: It could be there's not a shred of truth to it.

Mr Hampton: This is indeed Richard Nixon time.

FAMILY SUPPORT PLAN

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): My next question goes to the minister responsible for the destruction of the family support plan, otherwise known as the Attorney General.

Minister, women and children are suffering because you have in effect shut down the family support plan. You laid off 290 experienced staff and you have effectively closed the regional offices across this province. You have contracted some of the work out to the Royal Bank, but you've had to admit that it can't do the job.

Yesterday a number of women who are affected, including Judy Poulin of SCOPE, Support for Children, an Organization for Public Education, held a press conference to express her concern for the women and children who are not receiving the money they are legally entitled to because you have in effect shut down the family support plan. In attendance at the press conference was Ruby White, a single mother with cancer who has not received her family support payment even though her husband's employer has confirmed that the money was garnished from his wages.

What do you say to Ruby White, who has had to charge her medication on her credit card and has been unable to purchase textbooks for her son because she has not received the money that she is legally entitled to from the family support plan that you have in effect shut down?

Hon Charles Harnick (Attorney General, minister responsible for native affairs): I'm particularly pleased to receive this question from the leader of the third party.

The complaints that he has about the family support plan have existed for many, many years. If I could provide you with some statistics, in November 1990, the family support plan had 80,652 cases in it. At that time the arrears in the plan were $346.1 million. Only 23% of those in the plan in November 1990 were in full compliance.

In June 1995, after the leader of the third party put his mark on the family support plan, the plan now had in it 140,000 cases, and I'd like to tell you that the arrears owing to women and children after this gentleman, this leader of the third party, had an opportunity to run the family support plan went from $346 million to $850 million. That's what the arrears went to.

I will also tell you that after they finished with the family support plan, no one could get through on the phone and no mail was being answered. I am now taking steps to reorganize the plan to ensure that women and children get timely payment and that arrears are being collected.

Mr Hampton: Let me say to the Attorney General, I think everybody in this chamber would agree that yes, there are some people out there who may be unemployed or may do everything that they can to avoid paying. They may even switch jobs. We recognize that. We're not talking here about trying to get money from someone who is avoiding paying. Yes, that's a long-standing problem. What we're talking here is about people who send their cheque in, the employer sends the cheque in to the family support plan. This Attorney General has so screwed up the system that people can't even get those cheques any more.

That's what's happened. This is not a case of chasing someone out there who doesn't have money. This is something you are clearly responsible for. People were getting this money before. The money was coming from the payor into the system and it was going to women and children in need. Because of your actions, because you put 290 experienced staff out of work, even these people can't get their cheques any more.

Let me ask you, since you created this screw-up, what are you going to do to fix it?

Hon Mr Harnick: The leader of the third party knows not of what he speaks, as usual. I will admit we had a difficulty with the plan, and for that I apologized. It is the intention of the family support plan to get money to people as fast as possible, and in that regard, as the first part of our restructuring, we have now increased by 1,000 cheques a day the number of cheques that we are able to process. We are now processing 5,000 cheques a day, versus 4,000 cheques a day. With our private sector partner, we are now able --

Interjections: Oh.

Hon Mr Harnick: I might add, as everyone says "Oh," that private sector partner was contracted by the member for London South.

Interjections: Oh.

Hon Mr Harnick: "Oh." I might tell you that we are now electronically processing cheques so that money is flowing faster than it's ever flowed before and we have increased by 25% the daily output of cheques in that plan. We are doing that during the course of the restructuring so that we will have a better plan and get money to women and children faster than has ever happened before.

Mr Hampton: Now we understand. From this Attorney General's perspective, this is not about women and children getting the money they're legally entitled to. This is about privatization; this is about being nice to his friends in the private sector. That's what it's all about.

The reality here is this: The offices in Thunder Bay have been closed, in effect; the offices in Sudbury have been closed, in effect; the regional offices in Hamilton, London, Windsor and Ottawa have, in effect, been closed. People who want to enquire about their family support cheques go into those offices and can't speak to anyone. They dial the 1-800 number -- I guess because maybe it's a privatized 1-800 number now it's supposed to work more effectively -- and they can't get through.

Those women who came here yesterday came because they are not getting their cheques, came because they cannot provide for their children. All you have done in the time you have been Attorney General has made the system worse, except for your private sector friends, who probably enjoy the contracts they're getting. What are you going to do for Ruby White and all of the women who were here yesterday who can't get their family support plan cheques, who are being forced into a very difficult situation by the decisions of you and your government?

Hon Mr Harnick: Let me explain very simply to the leader of the third party so he might understand it, so he might understand the first thing I want to say. Your party was the one that privatized that aspect of the family support plan. You may not want to admit it, but it was you, Howie.

Mr Gilles Pouliot (Lake Nipigon): When you make a mistake, admit it.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bert Johnson): Order. The member for Nipigon will come to order.

Hon Mr Harnick: As I indicated, there was a problem getting out a number of cheques. That problem has now been solved. We have in fact increased the cheques we're able to send out, so that women and children can get their money more quickly.

The problem we have and the problem we wrestle with is that when the NDP took over this plan it had $346 million in arrears. When they left, the arrears had gone to $850 million. During the course of that time, clients of the plan couldn't get through to seek help for a problem, letters couldn't get answered. The plan cries out for restructuring and I'm trying to restructure the plan.

I would think the opposition would be happy we're trying to solve the problems they created. I would think they would want to cooperate with us to get money into the hands of women and children. They don't really want to do that, but this government does. We are going to restructure this plan once and for all so that women and children can be treated properly and get the support that they need.

The Deputy Speaker: New question.

Mr Robert Chiarelli (Ottawa West): My question is to the Premier concerning the Attorney General and the facts surrounding the closing of the eight regional family support offices. I saw you applauding the previous answer of the Attorney General. If you really believe what he said, you're truly living in a cocoon. Let me tell you some of the facts your minister and the Ministry of the Attorney General did.

Firstly, it kept the process secret from regional staff, resulting in negligent and inadequate estimates of available staff for the transition. This was because of larger-than-expected numbers of buyouts. You didn't even know what was happening.

Secondly, you made insufficient banking arrangements for the new system, resulting in thousands of cheques not being cashed or deposited by the bank in a timely manner.

Thirdly, you transferred to a new computer system that was not fully operational.

Fourthly, you have been haphazardly storing and misplacing parts of thousands of client files.

Fifthly, you inadequately communicated to clients of the plan how the new system would work. They didn't know what was happening. They didn't even know where to send their cheques.

This is very important and I want you to listen carefully: By Mr Harnick's own admission, 7,000 single mothers, representing over 15,000 children, in this province have had insufficient income -- Premier, stop smiling; it's not a joke -- insufficient money for food and clothing for periods of up to three months.

This level of incompetence, so fundamentally and unnecessarily punishing to the lives of innocent children, certainly cannot be tolerated by your government. Using your private sector approach to government, will you fire this minister for incompetence?

Hon Michael D. Harris (Premier): If you want the facts, you should get them from the Attorney General.

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): The question, Charlie, is, are you going to be fired?

Hon Mr Harnick: No, I'm not going to be fired.

The member says we aren't doing a good enough job getting money out to women and children. In the past, absolutely that has been the case. That's why we're restructuring the plan: to do it better. So far, we have increased the number of cheques that we can handle and process in a day by 25%. So that aspect of the plan is improving.

Let me tell you a little bit about the regional offices. The regional offices were servicing, on average, 60 people a day each. That's 480 people. The reason those 480 people went to those regional offices was because they couldn't get through on the phone lines. On some days, upwards of 50,000 calls a day come to the family support plan. What we are doing is restructuring the plan and hiring a new workforce that will be trained and able to deal with problems as they come in. We will be able to deal with the problems as people phone. There won't be referrals; they will be dealt with directly and the problems will be solved.

We are also adding new enforcement to the family support plan. I will be bringing a bill to this House very shortly, and I hope that the member will support the bill, because it will help get more money to women and children who need it.

Mr Chiarelli: Even though, although we disagree, there may be policy reasons for changing to the new system, the fact of the matter is that the transition has been mangled, and not only has the process been mangled but it's mangling the lives of a lot of people. On a very personal level, this has affected the lives of many people, people who can't pay their rent, buy food for their kids, pay for back-to-school requirements. We have not even heard an apology from you for what you have done to their lives. That's number one.

Secondly, you don't have the ability now even to honour your legal obligation to provide a client with a record as required by law. The stuff is packed in boxes, clients' information is in different boxes, shipped to central headquarters at different times. They can't even assemble it. The computer is down half the time. When the few people who do get through speak to a live body, they get on the computer screen and then they say: "There's not enough information here to provide an answer. We'll have to get back to you."

It is in one hell of a mess, and that's not the NDP, that's not another government, that's you, Minister. I want to know whether or not you are going to come clean and share the facts with us, instead of giving us these BS answers. It's in a total mess. What are you going to do?

Hon Mr Harnick: Let me first say that the member is wrong when he says I haven't apologized and haven't apologized publicly, because I have. No one felt more terrible than I did about the difficulty that we had.

Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine): You blamed it on the computer.

Hon Mr Harnick: No, I accept full responsibility for what happened. A mistake was made, for which I took full responsibility.

Ms Lankin: No, you blamed it on the computer.

Hon Mr Harnick: No one in this province felt worse than I did about the delay in those cheques. I appreciate that they don't want to believe what I'm saying, but that's their prerogative.

We are restructuring this plan, and we're restructuring it so that the moneys can flow more quickly, so that people can get the money in a timely way and so that the very things that the member says about people phoning and not being able to get an answer will no longer be the case.

That has been the history of this plan from the beginning. I have had letters from every person in the opposition who, long before the restructuring, were complaining about the inability to get an answer. This plan cries out for restructuring, and that is what we are doing.

Again, if it wasn't good enough the last time, let me reiterate to the members how terrible I felt, and I still feel, that there was a delay in cheques. We have increased our capacity to deliver those cheques more quickly. Now we are going to get busy and complete the job so that we will have a better family support plan, and I hope that the member from Ottawa is going to support me in doing just that.

The Deputy Speaker: New question.

Ms Marilyn Churley (Riverdale): I have a question for the minister responsible for women's issues. Minister, I hope you don't end up being an apologist for the Attorney General today in answer to my question, because the AG's answer today was total hogwash and a refusal to accept responsibility for a crisis in the family plan system.

The fact is, women who were getting cheques are not getting them today. Forty per cent of the staff have been laid off. Experienced staff, who, I may add, under our government plan would have kept their jobs, were laid off. Inexperienced staff people have replaced them. Guess what they are telling people like Ruby White on the phone when they've managed to get through after days and days. Some of them are saying, "Get a job."

This is happening out there, Minister. It is totally inappropriate, and I ask you today to speak up and do your job, speak up for the women of Ontario, in this case vulnerable women, and answer my question. I hope you do not switch it, because you are the minister responsible for women's issues and I want to hear you say today you will do your part to fix this problem.

Hon Dianne Cunningham (Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, minister responsible for women's issues): Obviously all of us have been concerned about the family support plan as long as I've been in government, and your government in particular was. Last year less than one third of all cases were in full compliance, and administratively I think that's very important. Less than one third of the mothers of those children did not get the money that they legally should have received, so we moved forward to do something about it.

The question was, what am I going to do about it? I have been working, as have other members of this Legislative Assembly and members of the opposition, by the way, who have been in contact with the Attorney General and myself, with individual cases in our own ridings as recently as three weeks and two weeks ago to do the job for them. Some of us have had terrific success. In London North we're down to some nine people and we did have some 60 complaints. It was in fact extremely, extremely difficult for those families, and the Attorney General, as he has said today, was particularly concerned about it and extremely sorry and apologized.

The point is, we'll do our best, and if you've got cases like this Mrs White, you should get that case to the Attorney General so he can help you fix it, just like everybody else in this House. It was extremely unfortunate and all of us regret it.

Ms Churley: Minister, that answer is not adequate. Your suggestion that we deal with this crisis, this problem on a case-by-case basis is absolutely ridiculous. I know that the member for Sudbury has sent in about 40 cases and has got about four responses. At my constituency office alone, I can't keep count of them. We have so many emergencies, people like Ruby White, who's in a crisis -- and let me add here should be congratulated for her courage. She's got a 12-year-old son, she's got cancer and she's actually quite spunky and is able to carry on quite well. She's on the phone for days.

My constituency office has been on the phone for days. We can't get through to people. I say to all the members in the House today, call your constituency offices when you get out of here and hand them all over to the Attorney General every day if that's the way you want to deal with crises out there, because we've got them, Minister.

I would ask you again: There is a crisis, and we have in the gallery today Judy Poulin from Support for Children, an Organization for Public Education. They are saying that there is a serious problem that wasn't there before. Will you commit to meeting with Ms Poulin to talk about the serious problems in the system and then go and meet with your Attorney General and demand that he fix them?

Hon Mrs Cunningham: The answer is yes.

YOUNG OFFENDERS

Mr David Ramsay (Timiskaming): I have a question today to the Solicitor General. On June 6 you made a statement in this House about the alleged beatings of young offenders at the Elgin-Middlesex Detention Centre occurring after the Bluewater Youth Centre riot. In this statement you expressed your concern for the young offenders' safety by stating that you had asked that the eight young offenders be transferred from the Elgin-Middlesex Detention Centre to Sprucedale. You also said, "We have taken a number of steps to ensure the safety of the young offenders who are in custody under the Ministry of Correctional Services."

Minister, what were these steps that you took in June?

Hon Robert W. Runciman (Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional Services): There were five directives issued on August 7 which dealt with the detention of young offenders in adult areas using properly trained staff for young offender supervision, the use of isolation for more than 48 hours, dealing with young offender disturbances and establishing a complaints procedure for young offenders. Those were the directives issued on August 7.

Mr Ramsay: Minister, I'm a little concerned that it took you to August from June, when you said on June 6 you would undertake these steps and now it's August that you said you brought these steps forward.

As you and I and everybody in Ontario are painfully aware, since that time a death occurred of a young offender while under your custody in the Ministry of Correctional Services. Of course, this is doubly a tragedy because all of us knew that this particular young offender was in danger and you and your staff knew that, the potential danger to this young offender.

I know you're not going to comment on this particular incident at this time because of the ongoing investigations, but what all Ontarians would like to know is what further steps now, since August, you have taken to make sure that our young offenders in your custody are safe and that none of our young offenders have to pay the ultimate price while in your care.

Hon Mr Runciman: We concur, with respect to the death, that it was indeed a tragedy, and I'm sure all members will express their condolences to the family of the young man in this situation. We've indicated that we are undertaking a number of initiatives to reform the corrections system in Ontario, and certainly one of those deals with the training of correctional officers.

This member, when he was the minister of corrections, outlined his frustration publicly with the training processes for correctional officers, and regrettably nothing was forthcoming with respect to changes. We've announced that those changes are going to take place. They're going to take place before correctional officers go on the job. At the end of four weeks of basic training, if you will, they will be put into streams so that anyone going into the young offender system as a correctional officer will get specialized training dealing with young offenders prior to assuming their duties. The same will be the case for the adult

section of corrections as well.

Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine): My question is also to the Minister of Correctional Services and it is respecting the tragic death of James Lonnee. Minister, I agree with you that this death is a tragedy. What I'm concerned about is that I think it is a tragedy that could have been avoided.

Three months ago in this Legislature, when there was debate and concern with respect to the incidents that took place at Bluewater and at Elgin-Middlesex Detention Centre, you promised that no young offender would ever again be placed in an adult jail, in an adult detention unit. Perhaps if that promise had been kept, James Lonnee might have been alive today.

It's two weeks since his death. I would like to know what inquiries you have made and what you have found out with respect to the decisions that were taken that led a young offender, James Lonnee, and others, to be placed in an adult detention centre, to be doubled up in what should have been a segregation cell; the decisions that were taken that led to what James Lonnee feared the most: his murder.

Hon Mr Runciman: I'm sure the member is aware that there is still a police investigation under way. Although charges have been laid with respect to this particular situation, the police investigation is still under way. We have not received signoff, if you will, from the police involved in this investigation to conduct an internal ministerial investigation to determine if indeed any of the directives which were issued by this ministry with respect to treatment of young offenders or policy guidelines that have been in place for some time were violated.

I can assure the member and other members of this House that we will get to the bottom of this, and if directives were violated, we will take the appropriate action.

Ms Lankin: Not good enough, Minister. We went through a month in this Legislature with you putting off answer after answer because there was this investigation, that investigation, this court procedure, this internal inquiry, this outside consultant coming in. You've never answered a single question here with respect to what is going on in your ministry.

I'm not asking about the circumstances that took place in the cell that led to the tragic death, I'm asking about the decisions that took place in your ministry. I'm asking about what you did over the course of this summer. Surely you cared enough about those 40 young offenders, those 40 teenagers who were being kept by your ministry, to get regular briefings about what was happening to them in the system, about how they were being treated. Surely you were informed about the fears of James Lonnee. There were only 40 kids.

Surely you knew about the concerns he was raising, about not wanting to be placed in an adult centre, about not wanting to be moved to Wellington, about not wanting to be doubled up in a cell.

What steps did you take to live up to your promise, to live up to the promise of your Premier to protect the kids who are in our custody so that parents never need fear, never need worry again?

Hon Mr Runciman: This concern would be more convincing if the member opposite and the government of the day had done much more to deal with quite comparable situations in many instances.

We are moving. In a report commissioned by the former government in 1993, Judge Inger Hansen indicated her concerns with respect to the workplace culture in corrections. She said: "The culture in the ministry's work environment was not the result of a few acts. The problems that this investigation uncovered have a long history."

I can cite a number of occasions. I'll indicate one: a 1993 allegation by a young offender who alleges that he was choked unconscious and sexually assaulted by a number of fellow young offenders. That matter is still before the courts, but those kinds of situations were not dealt with in a meaningful manner by the former government.

This is the only government with the political courage to deal with the real issues. We've outlined a very significant program of review of the whole system, a system-wide review that no one has undertaken in this country, let alone this province. We're moving forward where past governments failed to act.

HIGHWAY IMPROVEMENT

Mr Gary Fox (Prince Edward-Lennox-South Hastings): I have a question for the Minister of Transportation. Over the course of the summer I have received a great many calls in my riding concerning the poor shape of the pavement on Highway 33 between Bath and Adolphustown. Highway 33 is an important tourist road also known as the Loyalist Parkway. Considering the economic importance of this road to both the local community and the province, I would like to ask what plans your ministry has for the rehabilitation of this very important highway.

Hon Al Palladini (Minister of Transportation): Let me first say that I'm glad to see all my friends again. I want to thank the member for Prince Edward-Lennox-South Hastings for his question. I had the opportunity of driving on that particular road with the member during the summer and I certainly concur with the concern the member is referring to. The ministry does recognize the poor shape and we have plans to completely reconstruct Highway 33 from Bath to Adolphustown. This rehabilitation will bring the highway up to the same standard as the rest of Highway 33 towards Kingston. Furthermore, the ministry has taken great care to maintain the natural and historical integrity of this highway.

Mr Fox: I appreciate those words. Over the course of the past year you have said that you would like to restore Ontario's highways to their former glory. The budget saw an increase of $140 million to this effect. Can the minister tell this House what progress has been made?

Hon Mr Palladini: Ontario's economy and prosperity are directly related to the state of our highway infrastructure. The additional $140-million increase to this year's provincial spending on highway rehabilitation brings it up to a total of $375 million, compared to the previous government's average of $240 million over the last six years.

We are investing in the future of this province. I want to share some of the examples with the honourable members: Highway 401 near Puce Road, Essex-Kent; Highway 7 near Baldwin Street, Durham-York; Highway 17 near Iron Bridge, Algoma; Highway 43, near Alexandria and Monkland, East Grenville; Highway 11, the Severn River bridge through Gravenhurst. Increased levels of funding, along with a commitment to the initiatives detailed in our business plan, will help keep this important highway network from further deterioration thanks to the last two governments.

RENT REVIEW

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough North): I have a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing regarding the sham of a committee he sponsored to ram through his New Directions discussion paper. On August 19th, you opened the rent control committee with remarks that charged the committee with the task of studying proposals introduced in the New Directions paper and making recommendations that could be tabled in this House. It was my understanding that the report would be tabled today.

My party prepared its own report, due to the failure of the full committee to produce a report reflective of the recommendations of the 260-some presentations, not to mention those submitted in writing by those who were not granted space to appear, due to the inadequate consultation period.

You heard from tenants, landlords, developers, social advocates. They agree that your proposal to wipe out rent control in this province will not achieve the goals you set out: to lower rents for tenants, to stimulate the development of more affordable apartments and to provide greater protection for tenants. How can you ignore the recommendations of 260 presenters? It's obvious that neither you, the parliamentary assistant nor your Tory colleagues listened to any deputants to the committee and it's obviously reflected in the writing of the report. Nevertheless, I always believed that the report you have was written long before you even heard from any of the presenters.

Can you assure this House also that no legislation will be written to dismantle the existing rent control system and therefore you will not implement your disastrous decontrol system?

Hon Al Leach (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): The member is right; I understand that the report from the committee is being tabled this afternoon. I must say that I was terribly disappointed when the opposition members walked out of that committee without taking the opportunity to play a

part in producing the report.

What we did was go to the people of Ontario with a balanced program for rent control. We've asked for their input. We will now take that input into consideration when we're developing the legislation.

SPEAKER'S CONDUCT

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): I rise on a point of order to request the members of the House to give unanimous consent for this House to debate motion number 25 on the order paper: "That the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly of Ontario no longer enjoys the confidence of this House." I would hope that the members would give unanimous consent.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bert Johnson): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? It is not agreed.

Motions?

MOTIONS

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS / AFFAIRES D'INTÉRÊT PUBLIC ÉMANANT DES DÉPUTÉS

Hon David Johnson (Chair of the Management Board of Cabinet): I move that notwithstanding standing orders 8(

a) and 96(a), the House will not meet on the morning of --

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Leader of the Opposition): On a point of order --

Hon David Johnson: -- Thursday, September 26, 1996, to consider private members' public --

Interjections: Point of order.

Mrs McLeod: On a point of order: I would interrupt the proceedings of the House, if I may.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bert Johnson): Excuse me just a minute.

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker: I had given the floor to the minister --

Interjection: She was up earlier.

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker: I will rule on the point of order afterwards. The minister will continue.

Hon David Johnson: Notwithstanding standing order 96(h) --

Interjections.

Hon David Johnson: -- the requirement for notice be waived with respect to ballot items 39, 40, 41 and 42 --

Interjections.

Hon David Johnson: -- and that Mr Ouellette and Mrs Marland exchange places in the order of precedence for private members' public business.

Interjections.

Mrs McLeod: It's not disruptive. May I please place my point of order?

The Deputy Speaker: You may not.

Mrs McLeod: On what grounds, Mr Speaker?

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker: The minister had been given the floor. He was in the middle of his motion. I will deal with your point as soon as I have finished.

Mrs McLeod: You will deal with my point of order as soon as the minister has completed --

The Deputy Speaker: As soon as this item is done.

Mrs McLeod: This is somewhat unusual, Mr Speaker, but I will accept that.

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker: Mr Johnson moves that notwithstanding standing orders 8(

a) and 96(a), the House will not meet on the morning of Thursday, September 26, 1996 to consider private members' public business; and notwithstanding standing order 96(h), the requirement for notice be waived with respect to ballot items 39, 40, 41 and 42; and that Mr Ouellette and Mrs Marland exchange places in the order of precedence for private members'

public business.

Is it the wish of the House that the motion carry?

Mrs McLeod: I rise on a point of order, Mr Speaker, because I believe that all of us have come into the House today facing what is a completely unprecedented situation in the history of this Legislature, and potentially in the history of any Legislature. I did not rise on this point of order in order to be obstructionist in any way. I simply want a clarification of the way in which the matter that we all know is before us is going to be dealt with. I think all of us need that and deserve that explanation.

We're all aware there has been a motion of non-confidence in the Speaker, which was placed by the New Democratic Party 24 hours before the House resuming, and it was placed within time to be considered today. I would simply ask for a clarification from the government House leader as to whether the motion is to be called; if not, when it's to be called, and why a decision has been made to delay calling that motion.

The Deputy Speaker: That is a point of order, but it is not my place --

Mr Bud Wildman (Algoma): On the point of order raised by the leader of the official opposition, Mr Speaker, I think it is imperative, on a very, very important matter, for us to know how the government and the assembly will be proceeding. It is a matter of significant, substantial importance for this assembly as a whole, for each of the individual members, and certainly for the occupant of the high office of Speaker in this House. If the matter is not to be dealt with today as far as the government is concerned, then is it to be dealt with subsequently this week, and when does the government intend this matter to be debated and voted on?

We believe that this matter is of such importance that it should take precedence over all other business before the assembly. That is why the motion was tabled yesterday and proper notice was given. That is why we, as members of this assembly, believe that it is imperative that the matter be dealt with and that members be able to express their views and a decision be made by the assembly as soon as possible. We believe it should have precedence over all other business.

If the government doesn't accept that position, then what is the government's position, when will the matter be debated and when will we vote on it?

Hon David Johnson: I wish to assure all members of the House that I and the government, and I assume every member of this House, take this situation very seriously. It is of grave importance. It's of grave importance to us all as members of this House, it's, of course, of significant importance to the Speaker and, I might add, to everyone involved in the matter.

I have attempted to maintain contact with the House leaders, I've attempted to poll, I guess, or have contact with as many members of the Legislature -- naturally more on this side of the House, I'm sure you understand, as opposed to the other side of the House -- and I wish to outline at this point what the government or what I propose in terms of how this should be dealt with.

What I have found is that many members consider the investigator's report to be a significant component of this issue. There is, I think, an understandable concern of having to make a very important decision, affecting people's lives very deeply, without being made aware of the investigator's report. There has been some discussion about the availability of that report. I believe that the members of this House should have access to the information in that report. Many of the members of this House have expressed to me that they need that information.

I might say, on the other side, some members have expressed that they do not need that information. But many have told me that to make an informed and fair and just decision on this matter, they need that information.

I propose to set up a mechanism whereby they would get that information. What I am proposing is that this matter will be dealt with on Thursday of this week. This is a matter that, as has been mentioned by my honourable colleagues across the floor, should be dealt with as quickly as possible. I believe that dealing with this matter on Thursday will allow those members of the House who need the information -- information which was only made available for the first time to the House leaders yesterday and which virtually nobody in this House has had access to -- to have that information, have an informed opinion and deal with this matter on Thursday of this week.

Mrs McLeod: On a point of order related to the second point of order, if I may, Mr Speaker: Again I rise because I believe that this is an issue of both great sensitivity and great importance to all members of the Legislature. We all have a responsibility for dealing with the matter before us. All of us in our caucus have attempted to recognize due process and fairness in the carrying out of the investigation of the specific allegation which has been made about the Speaker of the House.

Having said that, we came today prepared to vote on a non-confidence motion on other issues. Recognizing that the immediate allegation has not been resolved, there are many other issues which have eroded our confidence in the Speaker.

The fact that you're suggesting this vote be called on Thursday: I want to be absolutely clear as to what further information you believe will have been provided by Thursday. I'm assuming that the specific allegation will not yet have been resolved fully. I make that assumption not necessarily knowing that. I also believe I heard in your answer that you would be releasing the information of the report to members of your caucus.

As you know, there has been some legal question about that, and I think it's important for the members of our caucus and for our House leader that we know whether in fact you consider us to be free to release that information to our caucuses, believing that it has a significant impact on the vote on Thursday.

Ms Frances Lankin (Beaches-Woodbine): On a related point of order, Mr Speaker: It's related to both points of order that have been raised. I believe that we are placed in a difficult position as members of the Legislature, when we rely on the Speaker of this Legislature to protect our individual rights with respect to the proceedings in this House and proceedings of business of government as they transpire in this Legislature.

The very fact that the Speaker, through his counsel, is the one who has taken actions to deny members of this Legislature the very information that they would need to take appropriate decisions is what has led our caucus to arrive at the decision that we have lost confidence in this Speaker.

I have no Speaker to go to today to protect my rights, to provide me with appropriate information, with informed information with respect to whether or not I should ever even take receipt of this report, should you offer it, sir. There have been legal challenges that have been set out. Our House leader has refused receipt of that report as a result of those legal challenges set out by the Speaker and by the Speaker's counsel.

Interjections: Threats.

Ms Lankin: Threats of legal action. We have no Speaker on which to rule with respect to the rights of the members of the House. It is untenable that the government should choose to leave us in this situation by putting this off until Thursday -- until, I would suggest, you've had time to consult further with the members of your caucus because you didn't get the decision you wanted out of a caucus meeting this morning.

Every member of this assembly has been threatened with legal action, the actions of a member who has public duty, public responsibility, the Speaker of this Legislature. That is untenable. We have lost confidence in that individual in holding that office. We have a right, as members of this Legislature, to debate that issue and to take a collective decision, and it is not appropriate for the government to make a decision to deny us that opportunity. This is a decision of the members of the Legislature.

I put it to you, sir, that you are thwarting the desire of the members of the Legislature for political purposes. This should proceed. We should have an opportunity to debate this and to take a decision.

Hon David Johnson: I don't disagree. As a matter of fact, I strongly support the member when she says this body should have the right to debate this, and indeed this body will have the opportunity to debate this in the very near future. I suggest that Thursday will allow those members, and I think we have a right for those members -- and I suggest to you those members are on both sides of this House -- who may feel that an important part of this issue is the report from the investigator.

It is said that there has been a legal threat, but I can also tell you that the House leaders have been made aware of a legal report generated through the human resources director of the Legislative Assembly, and that indicates that indeed the members of this House have the right to see this report. The report is in the possession of the House leaders.

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): You table it.

Hon David Johnson: Those House leaders who chose to accept the report have it, and what we are being told is that they have the right to distribute that to their members: not to table it in public, not to make it a public report, not to give the report to the media. I mean, with a little bit of common sense we would understand that a report dealing with a sensitive matter such as this would not be a report that would become public. However, the 130 members of this Legislature are the employer and, accordingly, they do have the right to see this report.

What I am simply suggesting is that over the next short period of time the members on both sides of this House would have the opportunity to see that report, to understand this issue. Some members have been asking for that right. I believe they deserve that right, and then to deal with the issue on Thursday. I think that's a reasonable way to approach it.

Mr Wildman: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: With the greatest respect to the government House leader, the government House leader is aware that the legal counsel to the Legislative Assembly advised the House leaders and advised the members of the Board of Internal Economy that, yes, in his view the members were entitled to have the report of the independent investigator and to peruse that report in order to be able to make decisions. He also, though, informed us that if that report were discussed outside of this assembly, the legal counsel for Mr Speaker McLean might have a basis for legal action.

You can't have it both ways. You can't read a report, you can't discuss it in the Legislature, and then not have it dealt with in the public. We are put in a very difficult situation where the legal counsel informed us that we should have access to the report, we should be able to debate it in the House, but we shouldn't talk about it outside of this place because we might be subject to legal action. That is why we are concerned. How does the government House leader intend to deal with this? I should make it clear that because of the legal advice we received I did not take receipt of that report, because frankly, I don't want to end up in court for trying to do my job as a legislator.

Mrs McLeod: On a further point of order, Mr Speaker: As spokesperson for my caucus, I think it's critical that I make it very clear to the government House leader that our caucus has indicated overwhelmingly that it was prepared to deal with the motion of non-confidence without regard to the investigation of the current allegation and therefore without regard to the contents of the report. The Speaker of the House has irretrievably lost the confidence of our caucus and therefore the release of the report and the question of whether or not this investigation has been fully carried out and fully resolved is not an issue that would affect our caucus's willingness to vote today.

Mrs Elinor Caplan (Oriole): To the point of order, Mr Speaker: As a member of the Board of Internal Economy, I received a letter from Mr McLean's -- the Speaker's -- lawyer, Mr Teplitsky, which threatened me. That letter said that I could not discuss or divulge the contents of a report. I have to tell you that when I received that letter, at that moment any confidence I had in the judgement of the Speaker ended.

That he would authorize a letter from his solicitor that threatened a member of this Legislature, who has the right by virtue of this office to stand in this House and speak on behalf of the people and speak about how public life is about public scrutiny and accountability; that he, the Speaker of this Legislature, would assume that he could direct his lawyer to take away that right from a member of this Legislature was sufficient for me to vote today on a motion of non-confidence because, sir, I have no confidence in Speaker McLean's ability to be fair in this House.

I say to the government House leader that his actions in the handling of this unfortunate affair, from beginning with the attempt to smear an alleged victim to the taking of a lie detector test and ultimately to saying to his solicitor to write a letter to members of this Legislature about this unfortunate affair, and the suggestion that rules that have been put in place for bureaucrats, because that's what it is, due process for bureaucrats, should apply to the Speaker of this Legislature, whom we rely on, whose good judgement we rely on to guard the privileges and the rights of members of this Legislature -- he crossed the line and cannot expect to have the confidence of members of this House.

I implore you to allow a vote of confidence in the Speaker today so that we can move on from this unhappy matter, because the content of that report, in my judgement and I believe in the judgement of many members of this House, is irrelevant when it comes to the confidence we have in the Speaker.

Mr Hampton: Same point, Speaker: For the government House leader to somehow assert that the issue here now is the report totally misses the point. The issue here is that we are in an entirely unprecedented situation. The Speaker of this House, through his solicitor, has attempted to deprive members of this House of the information that they should have as members. That is what has happened. This has got nothing to do now with what may or may not be in that report. This has got everything to do with the Speaker of this House trying to shackle each and every member in this House from doing his or her duty.

That is the issue which is before this House, and for the government to try to move away from that, for the government to try to then interpose something else, is utter nonsense.

This is an unprecedented situation in the parliaments of the Commonwealth, that someone who sits in the Speaker's chair should attempt to use a threat from a solicitor to shackle the members of this Legislature and to stop them from making a decision. That is what the motion of non-confidence is about; that is where we are at at this point in time.

Frankly, whatever the report says, now is irrelevant. That a Speaker would show this disrespect for this Parliament and for every other tradition of Parliament is, as I say, totally unprecedented. Anyone who would purport to be Speaker and then take this kind of action is not deserving --

Mr Gilles Pouliot (Lake Nipigon): Not worthy.

Mr Hampton: -- not worthy of being called Speaker, not worthy of the position. That is why this motion of non-confidence has been brought. This House cannot sit, this House cannot go forward in such an unprecedented situation, and if government members think they can, then they are denying every tradition of Parliament in trying to move ahead.

Hon David Johnson: Mr Speaker, there's conjecture on what point the members of this House may consider to be the most significant in this debate, and when the debate is held indeed the leader of the third party may be correct; that may be the issue which weighs most heavily on most of the minds or all of the minds or some of the minds of the members of this Legislature. But this is an issue that we would all agree has to be determined by all the members of this Legislature.

In terms of how each individual makes up their mind and what information each individual member needs to make up their mind, I think we should allow for the fact that maybe some people come at this issue with a slightly different approach than any of the previous speakers have indicated.

Some of the members have said to me, and I will say a number of members have said to me, that they feel the information contained in the investigator's report is of importance to them in making their decision on this matter. I'm trying to understand why we should deny them that right. Now, if this report had been available to them for some period of time then I would say you may have a point.

Ms Shelley Martel (Sudbury East): Who makes that available?

Hon David Johnson: The report will be made available to those. From a solicitor representing the Legislative Assembly we have a ruling that indeed those members who wish to have this report, who wish to have this information, should indeed have that information. If that's important in their mind in making a decision, who here today should say that they should be denied that information, denied that report?

I don't think that will lead necessarily to the best, most fair and just decision that could be made, and I believe all of us here today want everybody to be comfortable in their minds in terms of making a fair and just decision on this matter. That's all I'm suggesting. I believe that in dealing with this at the earliest opportunity, which I think is Thursday, we will accomplish that.

Mr Hampton: The government House leader makes a valiant effort, but he misses the point. What the Speaker may or may not have done with respect to the complaint that was raised by one of his employees is not the issue here. The issue here is that the Speaker, through a deliberate act, has tried to shackle the members of this Legislature. The Speaker has shown disrespect for the members of this Legislature. The Speaker has attempted to deny to the members of this Legislature the opportunity to determine the process that happens here. That is the issue.

The report, what is in the report, the events around the report are no longer the issue. Those might be dealt with at some time in the future. The issue now is the conduct of the Speaker with respect to this place, with respect to trying to deprive this place of information that members of this Legislature are entitled to in order to do their job properly. The Speaker's conduct goes to the heart, to the integrity of the process here. That is the point. For you to try to avoid that in itself shows disrespect for this place.

Mr Gilles Bisson (Cochrane South): On the same point of order, Mr Speaker: The government House leader has to understand what's happening here. The government House leader is trying to say that we, the members of the assembly, should walk back, take a look at the report and then try to make a judgement about the Speaker in regard to how we deal with it. The House leader misses the point. The point is simply this: What happened was that yesterday that report was brought before the Board of Internal Economy.

At that point the Speaker, through his lawyer, sent a letter to the members of the board and said that if that report is released and if we as members look at it, read it and talk about it, we will be sued. How are we, quite frankly, able to deal in a context such as that?

If the Speaker wanted us to deal with this in due process, the Speaker would have removed himself from the process altogether and allowed things to take their normal course. That is not what has happened. The Speaker in this case has jumped into this and, through his lawyer, said that we, the employers of the Speaker -- the Speaker is responsible to the 130 members of this assembly -- are not to deal with the matters within the report. Thus, how can we make a judgement?

I say to the government House leader that quite clearly the issue here is not so much the report; the issue is the conduct of the Speaker, how he has dealt with this entire situation from the beginning and how he is dealing with it now, specifically through his lawyer. To try to say that we will wait a couple of days and allow you as the government House leader to try to rein in your backbenchers so that they can maybe come around to your point of view, which I think is not too far from where the opposition is, is only basically saying -- and I think an admission -- that your own government backbenchers are having problems with the direction you would want to take.

This matter is serious. Nobody in this assembly is happy about what has happened. Nobody in this assembly is happy about what has to take place. But there is a decision that has been made by the Speaker. The Speaker has done things. The Speaker has dealt with this badly. The Speaker has threatened the members of this assembly. How is it that we as members of this assembly can do our jobs when we are under threat by our own Speaker?

So I say to you, House leader, it doesn't cut it. The issue here is not the report. The issue is simply that the Speaker has threatened the members of this assembly. The Speaker has dealt with this badly from the beginning. He, through his lawyers and by other means that we heard in question period today, released the information of the person to the media. The Speaker has not dealt well with this.

I say to you: Think clearly and come back to this assembly and tell us that you are going to debate this matter today. We will deal with it forthwith. We will deal with it so that we can move on with the business of the House and deal with the issues of the people of this province and not have to drag our way through this particular issue for an inordinate amount of time.

The Deputy Speaker: I would like to remind the House that I do not have the ability to deal with your points of order. I do rule on the orders of this House and to that extent I control what goes on. There is a motion before the House. I would like to ask that we proceed with debate on it.

Mr Wildman: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: The government House leader, I think in a very reasonable way, attempts to say, who would deny information to the members of the House? The answer is simple. Mr Speaker McLean would deny the information to the members of the House, and that's what this is all about. The point we're trying to make is that we believe the government should be proceeding forthwith with this matter so that it can be debated and dealt with and decisions can be made by the individual members of the assembly with regard to the office of the Speaker. Who would deny the information to the members? Unfortunately, Mr Speaker McLean.

The Deputy Speaker: I would like to repeat that I don't have the ability to rule on these points of order, but it would appear that under ordinary circumstances it would be something that usually the House leaders would meet on and sort out. I rule on what goes on in this House and I'm not able to rule on those points of order. I would like the House to proceed with the business as the orderly House that you are.

Mr Bisson: I think this makes the issue even more difficult to deal with. You, as the Deputy Speaker, have stood up and, first of all, have refused to acknowledge members on points of order earlier. That's a separate issue. But then in your ruling just now, or in your discussion with this House -- I'm not so sure it was a ruling -- you have said that you don't have the ability to rule on points of order. Where do we find ourselves? We find ourselves without a Speaker, quite frankly.

It is your responsibility, as the Deputy Speaker, to deal with the issues that are brought before this House on points of order, and you should have the authority to be able to do that. If not, I think we're in need of another Speaker.

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough North): Mr Speaker, I heard you mention that there's a motion before the House. I'd like you to tell me what the motion before the House is.

The Deputy Speaker: Mr Johnson moved that notwithstanding standing orders 8(

a) and 96(a), the House will not meet on the morning of Thursday, September 26, 1996, to consider private members' public business; and notwithstanding standing order 96(h), the requirement for notice be waived with respect to ballot items number 39, 40, 41 and 42; and that Mr Ouellette and Mrs Marland exchange places in the order of precedence for private members' public business.

Mr Sean G. Conway (Renfrew North): If I might, Mr Speaker: I have been listening carefully to this debate and I must say, I have a great deal of sympathy for the untenable position in which you now find yourself. This is very difficult. It's a mess. There is no precedent of which I'm aware, and it is, I think, urgent and pressing business.

In the normal course of events, the first thing we do as a newly elected Parliament is to choose a Speaker.

The Deputy Speaker: Excuse me, I wanted to clear up if you were debating the motion or were on a point of order.

Mr Conway: On a point of order.

Again, I would not want to be in your situation. You are in one hell of a tough spot and I think we owe it to you to try to come to some resolution.

Let me say at the outset that this is, I think, an urgent priority with which the House must deal. I haven't talked to anybody. I've been away. I come back today to encounter the situation that we all face.

I also have some sympathy for the government House leader. He too is in a very difficult situation.

This is an issue that faces the assembly as a legislative body. Al McLean is our Speaker. We put him there. He is there because we had an election a year ago. The fundamental question with which we must deal is, does Mr Speaker McLean continue to enjoy the confidence of this assembly? That's the fundamental question with which we must deal, and it seems to me that until that question is dealt with, we're not going to be able to do anything else.

I want to say that over the course of 21 years, we have on at least one other occasion of which I'm aware faced a direct motion of censure of the Speaker. If I'm not mistaken, it was November 1981 when the then third party -- the now third party -- lost its patience with Mr Speaker Turner. A motion of censure, as I recall it, was put, debated -- I think Don MacDonald, former leader of the CCF-NDP, put the motion. It was debated and it was voted upon.

Interesting that at that time the then government party, the Progressive Conservative Party, headed by Mr Davis, and the Liberal Party, led then by Stuart Smith, sustained Mr Speaker Turner. The New Democratic Party, as I recall, voted en bloc against Mr Turner. He continued, as I think he had every right to continue, because it was clear to him and to any fairminded person who looked at the issue that two of the three parties and an overwhelming majority of members of the assembly voted to sustain him, made it very plain they had confidence in Mr Speaker Turner.

But it is all about confidence, that intangible, immeasurable quality. I must say that over the last few weeks, when I see my Speaker having to take a lie detecting test, when I receive from an agent of my Speaker a directive telling me that I had better not open my mouth about certain subjects or I might be sued, I have to tell you, speaking personally, that ends my confidence. My confidence, I'm sorry to say, in Mr Speaker McLean ended when I received word of his agent's direction around what I might and might not deal with with respect to related matters. I respect the right of 128 other members to come to their own conclusion in that respect, but it is about confidence.

I want to recall that it was 10 years ago this summer in the Dominion Parliament that Mr Speaker Bosley, in a case that not very many people seem to remember, John Bosley, elected by the Parliament of Canada, chosen at the September 4, 1984, general election, was in deep trouble with his parliamentary colleagues. In fact, Mr Speaker Bosley was forced from his chair in September 1986 because for whatever reason or reasons, he lost the confidence of the House. He apparently also lost the confidence of the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister's agents.

But lest we forget, there are some precedents about which I think we should take cognizance. I would have thought John Bosley would have been an excellent Speaker. But for whatever reason, and in that case, as I recall it, members were annoyed about everything from too many violins at dinner parties to -- well, such is the stuff of confidence.

No Speaker -- no Tory, no Liberal, no New Democrat, no Reformer, no independent -- is going to be able to sustain himself or herself without the confidence of the assembly. That is not to say, as the 1981 Ontario precedent makes plain, that one should expect everyone to support a Speaker. I'm sure that if the ballot that chose Mr McLean was made public, it would be clear he did not win with a unanimous vote, I say as I look across at my friend from Mississauga South and think about my friend from Carleton East. We know we had a vote. We had several candidates, good people all.

One person won, but it wasn't unanimous, and no fairminded legislator can be expected to hold any occupant of the Speaker's chair to unanimity throughout the piece. I don't expect that and I don't expect that other members are going to agree with me in my assessment of what constitutes confidence either.

But I