April 20, 2005 SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Yvonne Jones, MHA for

Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair, replaces Roland Butler, MHA for Port de Grave; and

Kevin O'Brien, MHA for Gander, replaces Clyde Jackman, MHA for Burin-Placentia

West, for part of the meeting.

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Wiseman): Order, please!

(Inaudible) Estimates of the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

Welcome, Minister, to you and your staff.

Before we start today's Estimates debates, the members of the Committee

have a copy of the minutes of the April 14 meeting where we reviewed the

Estimates of the Department of Justice, and I would entertain a motion to accept

the minutes as circulated.

So moved by Mr. French.

Is there a seconder for that motion?

Mr. Parsons has seconded the motion.

Carried?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Thank you.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: This morning, as I said a moment ago, we are going to be doing the

Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

Minister, if you could, for the benefit of the Committee, introduce your

staff, I would appreciate that.

MR. J. BYRNE: First of all, it is a pleasure to be here and present the

Estimates of the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

On my right I have Don Osmond, Deputy Minister, who is just new to the

department, about a month or a month and a half maybe. On my left - I think most

people know everybody over here anyway, but I will go through it - is Ramona

Cole, Assistant Deputy Minister of Municipal Support Services; Baxter Rose,

Assistant Deputy Minister of Policy and Planning. Wayne Churchill, who is the

Deputy Minister of Engineering Services, is not here today for very good reason.

If any questions should come up regarding engineering services that we cannot

answer, we will certainly get the answers for you. Ken Curtis is in the back,

Manager of Financial Operations, and Vanessa Coleman-Sadd is Director of

Communications.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

I would ask the members of the Committee, for the benefit of the minister's

staff, if they could introduce themselves, starting with Ms Goudie in the back.

MS GOUDIE: Kathy Goudie, MHA for Humber Valley.

MR. FRENCH: Terry French, MHA for Conception Bay South and Holyrood.

MR. JACKMAN: Clyde Jackman, MHA for Burin-Placentia West.

MS JONES: Yvonne Jones, MHA for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair.

MR. PARSONS: Kelvin Parsons, MHA for Burgeo & LaPoile.

CHAIR: Thank you.

To kind of facilitate the process, historically, Minister, rather than

dealing with each of the heads of each of the departments, we have done it kind

of together, collectively, so it allows some freer movement of the discussion.

We will deal with -

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Chairman, for the information of Mr. Noel, who was not

present on our Justice Committee the other night, any undertakings that were

given by the minister or staff, we had them recorded as we went through so that

you did not have to go back through the transcript, dig them out and so on. I

believe Ms Murphy was here the other night

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Parsons.

That is exactly how we have done it. Those undertakings will be - I asked

Elizabeth, the Clerk, to report them to my office and I will distribute them to

each member of the Committee.

As I was saying, to facilitate the flow of the process, we will deal with all

of the heads together and then we will vote on the question of them at the end.

To help us start the debate, I would ask the Clerk if he would call the first

head.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01. carry?

Minister, maybe we could provide, if you want, before we start debate, an

opportunity for some opening comments.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have a prepared speech here, but I am just going to hit the highlights. I

am not going to read it as such.

Since I became Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, I have actually

met with literally hundreds of municipalities and different interest groups.

Mostly, the thing that came up, of course, was capital works, infrastructure

within the municipalities.

Last fall, as you know, we had an early announcement on the capital works in

the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Normally, the government would wait

until after the Budget came down to make the announcement, but we did it

earlier, went through Cabinet and got approval so we could get some early

announcements out. We have been working with the municipalities, especially on

the multi-year plans. Most of them are done and signed, the multi-year capital

works, so that is working well.

I am hoping to have pretty well all the announcements made, and the

agreements with the municipalities, within the next two to three weeks. Now, we

do have a small problem. I should not say small, it is probably major, in that

the Deputy Minister of Engineering Services may not be available for some time,

but that is still up in the air, so that would impact, possibly, the speed at

which we will be making the announcements.

Under the Canada-Newfoundland Infrastructure Program for 2005 there is

approximately $30 million to be spent. Some of that is carried over from last

year and some new monies this year. Under the Multi-Year Capital Works Program

we have $85 million on a 50-50 basis. Expenditures under municipal capital works

this year is $25 million. We are currently in discussions with the federal

government on the Municipal Rural Infrastructure Fund. The Municipal Rural

Infrastructure Fund is $85 million over the next few years. The gas tax is $82.3

million over the next five years.

During the Budget in 2004, we announced there would be a $5 million reduction

in the Municipal Operating Grants over three years. Basically, we took out $2.1

million last year. This year it is estimated to be around $1.9 million for

2005-2006. There should be no change in that. There may be a few more

municipalities involved; it would be very few more. For rural Newfoundland, we

decided last year that we did not want to negativity impact the smaller

communities in rural Newfoundland because we felt the bigger municipalities

could absorb the impact.

We also have announced in this year's Budget, the Community Enhancement

Program, $4.25 million. That program will be replacing the Job Creation Program

that is put out usually in October or November type of thing. This year we have

it in the Budget. We will be contacting municipalities, organizations, in the

very near future to notify them of this program. Again, it is geared for rural

Newfoundland and we will get more long-term projects, I suppose, and more

sustainable projects, rather than getting what we were accused about over the

years from media and the like, historically, menial projects. We are hoping to

get rid of that complaint.

Other than that, I think we can get right into it, if you want to, unless

someone on the other side would like to say a few words.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Just for the benefit of the people who are recording this, I would ask

members of the Committee, as they go to speak, if they would identify

themselves. That way, your microphones will be activated.

Mr. Parsons or Ms Jones, whichever one of you would like to start.

MS JONES: I will start.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, I have some questions around the capital works and municipal

infrastructure money. In the Budget Highlights, the capital works allocation for

this year was $83 million, which was an increase over last year.

MR. J. BYRNE: I am sorry, I cannot hear you. The mike is working, but I

do not know if you need the mike lower or something. I cannot seem to hear.

MS JONES: Minister, very seldom have I been told that I could not be

heard. I almost take it as a compliment. Hopefully, this will be better for you.

Under the Municipal Infrastructure Program, is it my understanding that the

program has increased this year? The total is $83 million. Is that an increase

over last year for the total program?

MR. J. BYRNE: Are you talking about the Municipal Capital Works Program?

MS JONES: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: It is $25 million this year.

MS JONES: It says, the Province's share of $46.5 million will bring the

total value of this year's capital works to $83 million.

MR. J. BYRNE: It is $46.5 million and $46.5 million, $83 million, 50-50.

The municipalities will come up with $46.5 million and we are coming up with

$46.5 million. Is that what you are talking about?

MS JONES: Yes. Is that an increase in the overall amount of money in the

program this year? How much did we spend last year in capital works?

MR. J. BYRNE: How much did we spend last year? Again, the first question,

Wayne Churchill will be here to answer that question and I would have to defer

to him.

From my understanding of it, $83 million is supposed to be roughly the same

as previous years.

MS JONES: Okay.

The Municipal Rural Infrastructure Fund is for cost-shared infrastructure

projects. Is that cost-shared with the federal government or with the

municipalities?

MR. J. BYRNE: The Municipal Rural Infrastructure Fund?

MS JONES: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: That money is going to be, over the next number of years, I

think, $85 million.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, the Municipal Rural Infrastructure Fund, that is

replacing the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Infrastructure Fund.

MS JONES: Okay.

MR. J. BYRNE: The Municipal Rural Infrastructure Fund, that money, when

the feds first came out with that program - and we are still working on it, by

the way - would have been 50 per cent of what the Canada-Newfoundland and

Labrador Infrastructure Fund would have been, or was, so it was 50 per cent of

the previous program. This new program is actually - it was for ten years, so

they cut it back to five years. They were going to come up with, I think, $28

million over ten years and they came up with $28 million over five years.

MS JONES: Does the same criteria apply, it is cost shared three ways

between the feds, the Province and the municipalities?

MR. J. BYRNE: We are still working on that. That is still being

negotiated, what the criteria will be. The same thing with the gas tax. We have

the Federation of Municipalities out talking about the gas tax now, the amount

of money, and how we should spend it. We still do not have the criteria. It

seems that each program that is coming forward from the federal government,

there are more restrictions being put on it: how you can spend it, where you can

spent it, what type of programs, these types of things, so that is still being

worked on.

MS JONES: The only funding, then, that has been allocated through your

department for municipal infrastructure would have been under the capital works

program this year?

MR. J. BYRNE: It is the Multi-Year Capital Works Program. It is the

Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Infrastructure Program. There was some money

left in that, and some carry-over from last year and the municipal capital

works. The Municipal Rural Infrastructure Fund and the gas tax should start

kicking in this year. They have announced $10 million for the gas tax for this

year, but we still do not have it. As soon as we get it, we will start

allocating that. We will have to work out a formula with the Federation of

Municipalities, with the larger cities, to try to come up with a fair way to

distribute that money. There are discussions (inaudible).

MS JONES: There has not been any criteria attached to the gas tax money

by the federal government?

MR. J. BYRNE: Still working on it. We are in bilateral discussions with

the -

OFFICIAL : (Inaudible) meeting next week.

MR. J. BYRNE: There is a meeting next week on that, but we still do not

know the actual restrictions or criteria to be put in place by the feds, and how

we are going to spend that. There may be differences within provinces

themselves, depending on the bilateral discussions with the provinces.

MS JONES: The $4.25 million that was earmarked for Community Enhancement

Programs, is this an increase in funding over last year?

MR. J. BYRNE: No, what has happened in previous years, the Job Creation

Program is usually done on an ad hoc basis. The previous Administration would,

in the fall of the year, come out with a program, job creation, and it was

roughly around the same kind of money. When we formed the government in the fall

of 2003, it was November before we formed the government, so it was really late

getting out, that Job Creation Program. Last year in the Budget I was hoping to

include it in the Budget but, for obvious reasons, we did not get it included in

the Budget and we had to come last year, in the fall of the year, with the same

type of situation. We did get it out a bit earlier, in October, I think.

This year, what we wanted to do was to come up with the money, get it in the

Budget so that we could notify the towns. It will not be in the too distant

future now that we can notify the municipalities, different organizations that

took advantage of this, tell them that this program is there.

We are meeting now. We have a committee in place which will be setting

certain criteria to be able to access this money. Hopefully, if we can set a

deadline maybe by August 31, that application will have to be in, but if some

come in sooner, we would process them. It will be based on a project basis

rather than, just say, district. Rural Newfoundland is where the money will be

geared to. We are hoping that if an organization or a municipality got $10,000,

$20,000, $50,000, $100,000 say last year and the year before, whatever the case

may be, depending on the projects, that they could use this early announcement

and early approval to leverage more money out of the feds and probably get more

substantial projects, rather than the menial projects that we are often accused

of. So, for planning purposes for the municipalities and organizations, and for

the general employment of the people who are in need, we could get longer

projects, more employment and more substantial projects.

MS JONES: So, will priority be given to regions of the Province that have

a higher unemployment rate and are experiencing difficulties in seasonal

industries -

MR. J. BYRNE: That is a good question.

MS JONES: - or just to whose application gets in first?

MR. J. BYRNE: That is a good question. We really want to get into a

situation whereby the areas of the Province that are hit hard could really

access this money. Now, we do have a group of ministers, a committee in place -

actually, as a matter of fact, I think we are meeting within the next week or so

to try and finalize some of the criteria. Some of the ministers who are on that

committee are Minister Taylor, Minister Shelley, Minister Dunderdale, myself,

and I think Minister Joan Burke is on it also. So, mostly the rural ministers to

try and come up with more - how can I put it to you? - more defined criteria

rather than with the Job Creation Program, which will certainly assist the rural

parts of the Province. That is our plan.

MS JONES: The money that government invested for job creation in Harbour

Breton, did that come out of this fund last year?

MR. J. BYRNE: No, it did not.

MS JONES: No?

MR. J. BYRNE: With a special assistance grant. The special assistance

money with respect to - that is there for emergencies and these types of things.

That is where that money came from. The Premier -

MS JONES: Yes, but it was out of your department though.

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon?

MS JONES: It was out of your department.

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, it was out of my department, yes.

MS JONES: How much money did government put into that program for Harbour

Breton?

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, I think it is around $77,000. It was just before

Christmas, I think, we gave them $50,000, then they came back for $27,000 more,

and I think they were looking for another $50,000, but what -

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, $45,000 or $50,000. What we did say to him, the mayor

down there, was that - he came back and said we need to extend the program and

could we have confirmation if we go beyond what we have now, that it would be

okay? So, we did give him that confirmation. It depends on how much money they

are actually utilizing. It is $77,000 plus $50,000, or $45,000, around there.

So, you are looking at about $130,000, $135,000 at this point.

MS JONES: So the Special Assistance money is in a different line than the

4.25?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MS JONES: That was separate. Okay.

Do you guys have a breakdown of how the money was spent last year by

district?

MR. J. BYRNE: Could have it for you; could get it.

MS JONES: I would like to get a copy of it because, of course, one of the

problems that I had last year was I had some significant decline in the fishery

in my area and had probably more people dependent upon this program than in the

past but received a lot less money than I would have in previous years. Of

course, this year we have also had a further decline and the possibility that

some of our plants could even close this year. So we are going to be in an even

worse situation than we were a year before. So, I just wanted to see what the

breakdown was by district and where the money was spent, and if there are

special circumstances that are going to be considered in this year's funding

allotment.

MR. J. BYRNE: We can get that for you.

MS JONES: Okay.

MR. J. BYRNE: It is a job creation program.

MS JONES: I have heard the President of the Federation of Municipalities

on a couple of times talking about the Municipal Operating Grants. Obviously,

they are not happy with the way the grants are - I should say, the amount being

voted for Municipal Operating Grants. Was there a reduction again this year in

operating grants?

MR. J. BYRNE: I am glad you asked that question because I do not

understand where the President of the Federation is coming from on that, and I

have had that discussion with him.

With respect to the Municipal Operating Grants and the cuts; the cuts were

announced, $5 million over three years. Last year there was $2.1 million taken

out of the Municipal Operating Grants. None of the rural municipalities were

impacted. He is on saying that we are dismantling rural Newfoundland. In actual

fact, if you sit down and look at some of the projects, capital works that are

going into the rural towns and the ratios that we are giving the rural

municipalities, up 80 per cent or 90 per cent, I do not understand where he is

coming from.

With respect to the Municipal Operating Grants, as I said, $2.1 million was

cut last year. That $2.1 million came out of fourteen municipalities. Those

municipalities were St. John's, Mount Pearl, Grand Falls, Corner Brook, Torbay,

the larger municipalities. Those fourteen municipalities, by the way - there was

$21 million, total, for Municipal Operating Grants. Those fourteen

municipalities took, actually, 50 per cent out of the Municipal Operating

Grants. That left $10.5 million for 270 other municipalities across this

Province. What we based it on was a formula we came up with, that any

municipality that under the municipal assessments based on a ten mill - the

updated municipal assessment based on a ten mill base rate, they could raise

$100,000.

That is where we went because I felt, personally - and it was someone giving

advice that you should go 10 per cent across the board or 5 per cent, whatever

the case may be, on an equivalency basis. I said: No, I think the municipalities

that are being hit or being impacted are municipalities that, over the years -

if you look at rural Newfoundland, it was the economic engine that drove this

Province: fishery, forestry, mining, agriculture, and the larger urban centres

benefitted from that. The same thing as they were saying: Practice as you

preach. We have Newfoundland looking at the have-provinces - you could take

provinces back before we even joined Confederation. We are in hard shape. The

rest of the country assisted in it.

So, what I am saying now is that, basically, rural Newfoundland has been hard

hit over the past ten or fifteen years with out-migration and what have you, and

the fishery closing down. That is where we went on the Municipal Operating

Grants. This year we are looking $1.9 million. The same municipalities will be

impacted. Maybe three or four others that I am looking at, that for different

financial reasons, are in good, solid shape, and that is where we are.

MS JONES: So, you do not think that the federation has any legitimate

issue around the MOG?

MR. J. BYRNE: Again, when I was Mayor of Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove

back some twelve or fifteen years ago, whatever the case may be, the Municipal

Operating Grants were at $49 million. So, they declined from $49 million down to

$21 million. It is not something that we want to do. We would love to be able to

increase it, double it and triple it, but again, we have to live in the real

world.

Last year we brought down a difficult Budget, and that is where we went. We

impacted the municipalities that could do it. The other thing I said to the

municipalities is that we should be looking at the big picture, the broad

picture here. When we are looking at the municipalities in this Province, they

should not only be looking at the Municipal Operating Grants as their

operations; some are. Some of the smaller towns, $1,000 to them is like $100,000

to some of the larger cities.

When we look at, for example, the Multi-Year Program, that we have gone -

with the City of St. John's we gave them - we never gave them. We worked an

agreement with the City of St. John's, I think it was $20 million or $21

million; the City of Corner Brook, $12 million; CBS, $7 million or $8 million;

Grand Falls-Windsor, I do not know how many million. So, when you look at the

big picture and you look at the amount of money that we cut and what we are

giving on the other hand, it has to balance out.

MS JONES: This year it seems like there is more money being given out to

larger towns under the Multi-Year agreements, like Corner Brook, Mount Pearl and

St. John's. I can only assume that there must be more money in the program. Is

that the idea?

MR. J. BYRNE: The program - and that is the point that the member who

just walked in brought up some time ago in the House of Assembly. With respect

to some of the larger municipalities, for example, Corner Brook over the number

of years - this was the first year they actually took advantage of the

Multi-Year Program. Therefore, they would be taking from the other programs with

respect to the Canada/Newfoundland and Labrador Infrastructure Program or the

Municipal Capital Works Program. Therefore, they then would take money from that

pot and go on a year-to-year basis, and hopefully - I went up and met with them,

and I suggested to them last fall that they should take advantage of the

Multi-Year Program. In actual fact, by going with the Multi-Year plan they are

now leaving money in the pot to be distributed to the smaller municipalities.

So, in actual fact, they could assist the smaller municipalities with respect to

more money being allocated to them under the Canada/Newfoundland and Labrador

Infrastructure Program because they were taking a chunk of money out of that. Do

you follow me?

MS JONES: Yes, I am just wondering, because it seems like there is more

money going out to the multi-year capital works. Although it may free up some of

the capital works money - which is my understanding from you now - in order for

that money to be there, there had to have been an increase over last year in

multi-year capital works, was it? Or it wasn't, it is just being distributed

differently?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, it is how you work it out with the different programs.

If you had the Multi-Year Capital Works Program and you have more municipalities

taking advantage of that one, therefore under the Canada/Newfoundland and

Labrador Infrastructure Program, which was thirty-three, thirty-three,

thirty-three - say Corner Brook would have taken advantage of that program. The

Province would actually, with the smaller municipalities, pay 60 per cent, 70

per cent, 80 per cent of the 66 per cent. So, in actual fact, some of the

municipalities only paid 10 per cent or 20 per cent. By doing it this way and

some of these municipalities taking advantage of the Multi-Year Program, it

actually left more money in the Canada/Newfoundland and Labrador Infrastructure

Program for the rural municipalities to take advantage of, whereby they did not

have to take part of the 50-50 Municipal Capital Works Program. Some of the

towns cannot afford their 20 per cent, their 30 per cent. So, by getting the

larger ones to take - there are fourteen now. I think there were ten or twelve

last year, I cannot remember now. It actually frees up money for the rural towns

to take advantage of this. It is easier for them, rather than trying to take

part of the 50-50. Do you follow me?

MS JONES: Yes. So, there are funding arrangements now for rural towns

that are 90-10 cost-shared?

MR. J. BYRNE: Under the Canada/Newfoundland and Labrador Infrastructure

Program - because it was thirty-three, thirty-three, thirty-three, federal,

provincial, municipal. Some of the municipalities out there could not come up

with their 33 per cent. So, what the Province was doing - and it was started by

the previous minister and the minister before that - they would pay 60 per cent,

70 per cent, 80 per cent of the 66 per cent. Okay? There is $30 million there

this year to be allocated. Some of it was carried over, but some new monies this

year. Again, under Municipal Rural Infrastructure Fund, that detail has not been

determined yet. The restrictions on the Municipal Rural Infrastructure Fund or

the criteria to be put in place have not been worked out yet, so we really do

not know. There is going to be x amount of dollars there but we really do not

know how it is going to be spent or what projects will be permitted under that

program, but we will use that Municipal Rural Infrastructure Fund.

MS JONES: Yes, because I have had municipalities in my district that have

been offered money under the agreement but they have been told they have to pay

30 per cent of the costs which, of course, they are not able to do.

MR. J. BYRNE: Exactly. Then again, it depends on the project and the

department. Wayne Churchill, again, he is the guy. There are certain formulas in

place, and the previous minister would know this. The criteria put in place is

based on environmental issues, health issues, the financial situation of the

municipality involved, the debt servicing ratio, all these types of things, to

come up with a formula or a sharing ratio for that municipality. Some get more

than others, with respect to the ratio itself.

MS JONES: Is any 100 per cent funding being given under that program?

MR. J. BYRNE: Previously, the Disinfection Assistance Program was up to

100 per cent of $100,000. There are no programs at this point in time of 100 per

cent, unless it is a real emergency type of thing, you know, which we will work

with the town.

MS JONES: Okay.

CHAIR: Thank you, Ms Jones.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you.

I just have a few questions, minister. I notice the Special Assistance fund

is on page 240 in the Estimates, 3.1.03 and the Community Enhancement fund, same

page, 3.1.04. Which one of these two does the Job Creation Program monies come

from, if either?

MR. J. BYRNE: The Job Creation Program is no longer. The one to replace

the Job Creation Program is the Community Enhancement program.

MR. PARSONS: Okay, so that is one in the same. It is 3.1.04, what I

commonly refer to as the Job Creation Fund.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, but we would like to get away from that terminology,

because we have some individuals out there who are trying to say the Job

Creation Program is meaningless, it is not worth the effort, these types of

things. People out there depend on this and need it. We are trying to lift it a

bit, I suppose, and put more long-term sustainable projects in place and, rather

than just moving rocks from one place to the other, something that is going to

be there to improve the community, tourism related, business related, these

types of things.

MR. PARSONS: Well, I guess, Minister, if it looks like a duck and walks

like a duck, it is probably a duck.

MR. J. BYRNE: No, not in this case. I suppose if you want to be pretty

negative towards it, that could be the case, yes.

MR. PARSONS: I certainly would not go down that road of negativity.

I wonder if you could undertake to provide us with a breakout of last year,

of the grants that were given to each district, all forty-eight districts, under

both of these programs: under what you have termed the Special Assistance

Program and what was formerly called the Job Creation and now called the

Community Enhancement Program? Can you provide us with a complete list of all

grants and subsidies given under all of those expenditures for all districts on

a district-by-district basis?

MR. J. BYRNE: That was what was requested under the Job Creation from the

previous member.

MR. PARSONS: I think Ms Jones' question related specifically to the

Community Enhancement Program.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, the Job Creation.

MR. PARSONS: I am asking for both, Special Assistance and the Community

Enhancement Program.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you.

CHAIR: Just for the benefit of the Clerk, in recording that, you now

have: Ms Jones wanted the Community Enhancement project. Now you want the

Special Assistance Grants in addition to that, correct?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

CHAIR: Okay, thank you.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, Community Enhancement actually was Job Creation last

year.

MR. PARSONS: Yes, that is right.

Minister, I noticed recently, or I heard, that there was a $50,000 grant

given to the District of Ferryland, represented by the Minister of Finance, for

a Zamboni. Would that have come through your department?

MR. J. BYRNE: I will have to check on that one.

MR. PARSONS: Okay. If so, if it did come from your department, I am

wondering if you could advise which pot it came from?

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, if it came from our department, it would have come

out of the Special Assistance, I would imagine, and would be in the list that

you would get anyway.

MR. PARSONS: Okay.

Minister, was there any polling done by your department in the last year?

MR. J. BYRNE: Any what?

MR. PARSONS: Polling.

MR. J. BYRNE: Polling?

MR. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Polling?

MR. PARSONS: Polling. Were there any funds paid out from your department

for polling?

MR. J. BYRNE: I will have to check on it, but not to my information, at

this point, not from my memory.

MR. PARSONS: How about media monitoring?

MR. J. BYRNE: Media monitoring? Maybe some, yes.

MR. PARSONS: Could you confirm for us what exactly was paid out, and to

whom, by your department last year for media monitoring? Minister, did you,

yourself, incur any media training last year - you or anyone on your staff?

MR. J. BYRNE: Last year, media training, now let me think. I am thinking

on dates here now.

MR. PARSONS: How about since November of 2003.

MR. J. BYRNE: Possibly, yes.

MR. PARSONS: Could you confirm how much was incurred for media training,

and to whom it was paid?

Minister, are there any current - maybe that is not the correct word - are

there any requests on the books of municipal affairs right now by any community

in the Province regarding resettlement or possible resettlement?

MR. J. BYRNE: Actual requests for resettlement?

MR. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: No. Over the past year we have looked at a couple of

communities and did a cost-benefit analysis on them. Beaches, I think, was one.

MR. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: There was some other one, I believe, was there?

OFFICIAL: Beaches is the most recent.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is the most recent one. Other than that, no.

MR. PARSONS: What is the status on the Beaches request right now?

MR. J. BYRNE: The last study that was done showed that it was not viable

or beneficial to do that, so we said no to it.

MR. PARSONS: The municipal investment corporation, it is my understanding

that will be tuned out.

MR. J. BYRNE: The Municipal Financing Corporation, you mean?

MR. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: The Municipal Financing Corporation, I think there has been

some comment on the Open Line shows recently with respect to municipalities not

having access to the Municipal Financing Corporation and therefore not being

able to borrow money.

Over the past few years, I think, there have been four municipalities, three

or four, that were financing their projects through the Municipal Financing

Corporation. I think it worked out to be somewhere around $427,000. The actual

amount of money that was financed through the private banks for the

municipalities was something like $247 million. It was less than 1 per cent.

This was started with the previous Administration and we just continued on with

that. There were a number of municipalities assisted through the Debt Relief

Program that was started by the previous Administration. We put $9 million in

the Budget last year to pay down the debt of the municipalities to the Municipal

Financing Corporation. I have had some dealings with the Federation of

Municipalities - a lot of discussions, actually - to try and see if we can come

up with a way to assist the municipalities that went out and refinanced and

restructured their debt through the private banks. That is where we are now,

trying to come up with some kind of a program to assist them. This last $9

million, I think, that was put in the Budget last year, will pay of the debt of

the municipalities owing money to the Municipal Financing Corporation - only the

arrears, I mean..

MR. PARSONS: Minister, is there any particular reason why MHAs might not

be informed when communities within their district have been approved for

certain projects?

MR. J. BYRNE: A good question.

That is something I did give some thought to. When I became minister, I just

continued on with the previous process that was there in place, had some

discussions. To me, there was really no reason why, when a letter goes out to a

municipality, I suppose, that it could not be copied to the MHAs.

MR. PARSONS: I am wondering if you could undertake in the future to do

that? I am not too concerned about the rationale, or why somebody did it. I

agree with yourself; I think it is totally inappropriate. I think if anybody in

a district, regardless of your political stripe, if something happens - just for

the convenience of it, so that nobody is on the wrong wave length or goes off

misinformed.

We have had cases, for example - and I commend you and your department, by

all means, for the speedy way in which you have handled the request. The faster

communities know about this, and the earlier they know about it, the better they

can do their planning and get on with their summer works and so on. You have

done a very good job in doing that. It is just that sometimes wires get crossed

and you end up with MHAs bitching to government improperly and unnecessarily

because municipalities have, in fact, been already told that they have it

approved what they requested. So, you get some MHAs going off sometimes, and all

because they did not get copied on the letter necessarily.

I think it is just a matter of convenience. The MHAs usually know that the

requests have been made, because most communities come to their MHAs and say,

look, here is what we have on the burner for this year. Here is our wish list,

just to let you know that is what has gone to the minister, and see if you can

find out what is going on.

MR. J. BYRNE: Again, with respect to that, when I became minister I just

continued on with a lot of the procedures within the department. We have changed

a fair number of procedures within the department. It is a natural evolution, I

suppose, to improve things, hopefully to improve things. I did give some thought

to that, and really there is no reason why all MHAs should not be receiving that

- a copy.

MR. PARSONS: Minister, is there any thought being given at this time to

regional governments? Are there any plans in the works or on the drawing board,

or discussions taking place concerning the possibility of regional governments?

MR. J. BYRNE: There is always talk of it, I suppose. When I was in

Opposition and the former minister was there, and others - when I go out and

meet with any municipalities, I am always trying to promote regionalization of

services, coming together to share services.

I had a study done out in the Holyrood area, within the department, to look

at the regionalization of firefighting. To me, it is something that we could

consider. We had some discussion with the Federation of Municipalities. They

just presented the department with a task force report that has been ongoing for

some time. We just received it, are going over it now, responding to it.

To say that there is concrete discussion on regionalization of regional

government, no. The only thing that would be ongoing is with respect to waste

management in the Province. We have the regionalization legislation approved

last February, type of thing. We have the NorPen Waste Management committee on

the Northern Peninsula that is incorporated. We are looking at one in Green Bay

now that is going through the system. Aside from that there are no concrete

discussions, but I think it is something that we should pursue, personally.

MR. PARSONS: The reason I ask, of course, is, it seems that this

government is very intent - I believe the Member for Gander actually uses the

word hub quite frequently. We have seen the integration of hospital boards, we

have seen the integration of school board, we have seen the regional economic

development plans being overhauled and regionalized. I am just wondering that a

logical next step, especially since we are into program review, I just wondered

if there is some master plan at works in your department to complement what has

already become sort of a hubification', shall I say, of Newfoundland?

MR. J. BYRNE: Not in my department. The only thing I would comment on

with respect to school boards coming together, and health boards coming

together: As you know, I think there was a number, a few years ago, of

forty-something school boards cut down to fourteen from the previous

Administration and now it is down to four, is it?

Again, it is a continuation somewhat, I suppose, of some of the stuff that

was done previously. To say that we are looking at hubs, or anything of that

nature, it is certainly not within my department, I can tell you, but we would

certainly encourage regionalization of services, sharing of services, and I don't

think that is anything new.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you.

Minister, back to the Community Enhancement Program for a second. I wrote to

you some months ago - and I appreciate receiving your reply - concerning an

incident about the application of the rules of eligibility for those persons who

tried to get hired under the Job Creation Programs in the past. Albeit the rules

are very difficult to apply, and I appreciate that the rules are only used as

guidelines and you must do the best, and I guess any set of rules are never

perfect and there is always going to be somebody lost in the process. I

referred, in fact, to one particular individual who missed the boat for his full

family, because I believe it was four hours. There just seems to be something

wrong with a system whereby we have one person on this side of the street who

had two incomes going in their family, and the person on this side of the street

ends up on welfare because the person could not get on the program because of

four hours. I thought that was a great injustice. I thought that was what

guidelines were all about, that you would use them as guidelines, but there

still has to be an equitable resolution system.

Has there been anything established - and you indicated that the rules are

overhauled from time to time, and revised and whatever. Is there any kind of

appeal process, or somebody - arbitration - when you get into those very

unfortunate situations, that someone can refer people to? Because the people

affected by this - the MHAs cannot do much about it. The MHAs, in fact, I think,

on the whole, think the rules are pretty fair. I think the development agencies

who usually impose them have a tough time because it is their residents and

their friends and neighbours whom they are trying to do it for. They think the

rules are pretty fair. The department thinks the rules are pretty fair, and they

are pretty fair, but what do we all do so that we can avoid these very

unfortunate situations so individuals do not feel they have been done by? At

least you can refer them to some independent, equitable process to say: Look,

that group over there has an opportunity to look at the equities of this

situation and do what is right or wrong.

MR. J. BYRNE: I agree. The situation you talk about is unfortunate, there

is no doubt about that, for someone to miss out for the sake of four hours; but,

again, the guidelines are there, and they are guidelines. They had to have

something to base their decision on, any of these organizations or groups. In

the meantime, we are looking at that and we are trying to come up with a process

that probably could be more fair, if you want to say it that way, and if there

is a way we could put some kind of arbitration in place, whatever the case.

Again, the committee that is in place now, these are some of the things that we

would be looking at - more inclusive, I suppose, if that is a possibility.

MR. PARSONS: I was going to suggest, Minister - we all have zone boards

throughout the Province - even if there were some final appeal on a given

situation, say a zone board or whatever, a Chamber of Commerce or somebody, had

a group of three in each district that could look at things quickly and say,

okay, we will make a recommendation to the minister's office based on those

particular circumstances.

MR. J. BYRNE: Then again, I do not know.

MR. PARSONS: Not that it would be binding on the minister, but at least

somebody, an independent group could look at it on the ground, who knows the

people, knows the individuals, and say: Minister, we know the rules, we know the

guidelines, but here are the facts and we recommend to you that in these

circumstances maybe this case should be approved by you.

MR. J. BYRNE: I do not know if the department would want to get into

micromanaging these projects down to that level, and say that the minister is

going to say that Person A or Person B is hired in a job, but there is certainly

some kind of a process that maybe could be put in place to address your

concerns, I agree.

MR. PARSONS: Minister, educate me on this one. The Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing Corporation -

MR. J. BYRNE: Not my -

MR. PARSONS: No. It used to be under municipal affairs, however.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: When was that switched from municipal affairs?

MR. J. BYRNE: Why?

MR. PARSONS: Yes, when and why?

I take it that it happened when the government changed.

MR. J. BYRNE: It happened in probably January or February of 2004.

I think the logic behind that, at that point in time - that is for the

Premier to answer - would be that Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, again, went

to Human Resources, Employment and Labour, and Social Services. A number of the

people in those houses are social services recipients or clients. We thought it

would be more suitable for that to fall under that department, and I agree with

it.

MR. PARSONS: Okay.

I have nothing further.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Parsons.

Mr. Langdon, welcome to the Committee. Thank you for joining us this morning.

MR. LANGDON: Thank you. It is good to be here.

I was here late last night and back again. By the way, the reason why I was

late, I was not informed that this was here this morning. They had not called

me. It was like the Department of Finance yesterday. The minister got fooled up

in that, and that is why we did not have that yesterday morning.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. LANGDON: No, not you, the Minister of Finance. We were all here and

he did not know anything about his Estimates yesterday morning, so they were all

cancelled. We all have mix-ups.

MR. J. BYRNE: I do not know if there is something in my ears this morning

or not, but I cannot seem to hear you very well.

MR. LANGDON: I will talk a little louder then.

One of the programs that we had which was successful, I think, was the water

disinfection program, where we paid out millions of dollars primarily to smaller

municipalities, up to $100,000, and there were extenuating circumstances where

they went above $100,000 and still got 100 per cent. Is that program in place

any more?

MR. J. BYRNE: No.

MR. LANGDON: Can you answer me this question - I am not sure again, you

might not have the stats; they might be with Government Services - how many

communities are still on boil order?

MR. J. BYRNE: The last I heard - now, this would have been some time ago

- would have been 240-something. Does that sound right? Did you say on boil

orders?

MR. LANGDON: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: I thought it was over 200. Around the same, it usually

floats around the same figure. In the meantime, I can find that out for you.

That is not a problem.

MR. LANGDON: So, why would government then not see the necessity of a

program like that? Because most of those small municipalities, as many of us

have here - and that is the reason for it in the first place - could not afford

that type of a program. With that not done, these small municipalities will

never, ever, have an opportunity to put a new disinfection program in place and

come off a boil order.

MR. J. BYRNE: I think the answer to that would be yes, it was a good

program. We take water treatment very seriously within the department, and we

assist the municipalities certainly wherever and whenever we can. It is a

program - the figure you used, you said millions. How many millions did you say?

MR. LANGDON: I did not say for sure, because I do not know. It probably

might have been $14 million or $15 million overall. I am not sure, but that

ballpark figure.

MR. J. BYRNE: Over a number of years.

MR. LANGDON: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Again, when I became minister, there was so much of that

money still in the system and still flowing through the system, and there were

some municipalities taking advantage of that. We did not include it in this year's

budget, but it is certainly something that we could consider, or reconsider, for

next year's budget, when we get in a financial situation where we can do

something with it.

MR. LANGDON: The total infrastructure program, whether it is capital

works or multi-year capital works, whatever the case might be, the total for

this year was what?

MR. J. BYRNE: I think the total was $83 million or $86 million; $83

million, I believe it was.

MR. LANGDON: Eighty-three million, I thought it might have been.

Of the total $83 million, how much of that $83 million - and how many of the

urban municipalities are on the multi-year capital works?

MR. J. BYRNE: Fourteen municipalities have agreed to get into that. For

me to give you the exact number for each municipality, I can get that for you.

That is not a problem, but I do not have it here today, I do not think. I know

that St. John's was twenty - no, that was over a number of years, of course,

over three years; Corner Brook, twelve; Mount Pearl, six or seven; CBS, six or

seven; Torbay, I think, was three or four. I could get it for you.

MR. LANGDON: Yes, I would like to know that.

The other information that you might be able to table for me is for the new

program, as of this year, the multi-year capital works and so on, and the number

of towns. How does the total amount that these towns would have compare, say, to

the last two or three years? You know, is it more this year for the number of

towns involved taking more of the $83 million out of the pot than it was, say,

two or three years ago?

MR. J. BYRNE: St. John's is less. Corner Brook -

MR. LANGDON: Overall.

MR. J. BYRNE: Overall, I would think it would maybe average out around

the same.

Corner Brook took advantage, of course, and they had not in the past, but

then St. John's is down. Mount Pearl took advantage, and they had not in the

past. I would have to get that number but, to me, I think it is roughly around

the same.

MR. LANGDON: Okay.

The other thing, the central waste management area out around South Brook, we

had quite a battle with that, to get that started and so on. On many, many trips

we were out there. There were some municipalities that we thought should come

in, for example, like King's Point. Are they are in now or not in?

MR. J. BYRNE: No, they are not in yet. There are a few there that have

been actually thinking about possibly even coming out.

With respect to waste management in the Province - and, again, I have said

this - when we took over, and you are well aware of this, it was cut from 240

down to, say, ten dump sites, eight or ten, whatever the case may be, but there

was no money in the short term or the long term.

What we are trying to do is come up with a plan. The key here, of course, is

dollars. How are we going to get the dollars to do it? Now, I do have some ideas

about how we can start this process off and get some money.

The situation in Central there, what you are speaking of, of course, is King's

Point, one municipality that does not want to be involved, and I think there are

a couple of others, but we are looking at possibly going ahead with that.

Hopefully they will see the light or the wisdom in that in due course and try

and have more meetings with them to convince them to come onside on it, but it

is actively being pursued.

MR. LANGDON: You were just saying that some of them might want to come

out. Who are the municipalities that (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: There is just one municipality, I think. Springdale, maybe,

was it? There was some municipality out in that area.

MR. LANGDON: South Brook?

MR. J. BYRNE: No, there wasn't anything concrete. There were no

letters. It was just something that said that if we do not get this underway,

type of thing, we have to start moving on this. We want to get it done. If we

don't get it done, type of thing, we will - nothing concrete.

MR. LANGDON: What is happening to the Avalon waste management under Dr.

Regular?

MR. J. BYRNE: The Avalon Waste Management Committee, of course, Mr.

Regular, when his new contract was up, we did not renew it because that was a

paid position and the chairpersons of each group were not being paid. We did not

think that was fair, so his contract was not renewed.

Since I came there, the problem that I have seen with respect to the Dog Hill

site and the Robin Hood Bay site, any time I spoke to any group on that, I have

always qualified that the City of St. John's was a big factor here. What the

City of St. John's decided to do would be a major factor on what would happen

with the Dog Hill site.

The City of St. John's did have a study done, cost shared by us, saying

they could have another thirty to forty years down there spending probably half

of the money to retrofit the site. So we are looking at that, and we are

possibly going to have another study done. Some people within the group felt

that we needed a more enhanced study done of the Robin Hood Bay site. If the

City of St. John's - if that site is viable and feasible, then we will look at

freezing the Dog Hill site and possibly going down the road of Robin Hood Bay.

Now, some people may disagree with that, but it is being pursued.

Again, it boils back to doing something here in the near future, but coming

up with the money to do it. I do have something in mind where we could actually

come up with a fair chunk of money to go down that road if the Federation of

Municipalities and if other groups decide to go along with what I am hoping to

propose.

MR. LANGDON: Still with waste management in Conception Bay North -

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon?

MR. LANGDON: Still with waste management, the towns in CBN, are they

still bringing theirs to St. John's?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, they are bringing it in. Again, I have had meetings

with the Mayor of Harbour Grace a number of times on this issue. What I

suggested to them - of course, they would like to have a transfer site out there

for the Dog Hill site, but this is something that is going to take probably

years to do anyway.

What I have been saying to people is that we do not want, as a Province, as a

department, to get into operations, and paying for operations, but we would

certainly assist the municipalities that are involved with this with respect to

capital. We have done it already up on the Northern Peninsula. What I had

suggested, I asked them to come back with a proposal, and they came back with a

proposal which was similar to the previous proposals.

My view is that if the Dog Hill site is delayed and we continue on with Robin

Hood Bay, then what maybe could happen is that the towns in that area would come

together, possibly, and rather than have five or six trucks coming into St. John's

five or six times a week, or three or four times a week, maybe get one or two

big compactors and service the area that way. It would be more viable for them,

and easier on the pocketbook.

Another point I have always made is that, when we are going to put something

in place, it has to be something that has common sense to it, logical, and the

bottom line we have to look at is what it is going to cost the taxpayer and the

municipalities in the end.

MR. LANGDON: You were saying that you gave some capital money to the

Northern Peninsula. I think only recently, I am not sure who the spokesperson

for the group was up there saying they were still carrying their waste in

pick-up trucks; everybody else had trucks to do it. (Inaudible) looked after

than recently?

MR. J. BYRNE: I think Baxter had addressed that. I do not understand what

is going on there, personally.

MR. ROSE: The NorPen group is in the process now of doing the tendering

to get the equipment, to get the trucks and get the new site up and operational.

We are in the process of setting them up as a regional waste management

authority, the first one in the Province. It is taking some time, but now with

the weather breaking a little bit we can get on with their site development and

do the tendering on the new trucks.

MR. J. BYRNE: I do not think (inaudible).

MR. ROSE: No.

MR. LANGDON: Are they putting in a new site, or is the one that was there

MR. ROSE: They have two sites up there. One is the former St. Anthony

incinerator site, which is being converted into a landfill, and they are in the

process now, this summer, of developing what is known locally as Bill's Pit,

which will allow them to shut down the Boyd Arm incinerator which was causing so

many problems a couple of years ago.

MR. LANGDON: Good.

Can I continue on for a few more minutes?

CHAIR: The floor is all yours.

MR. LANGDON: What we had before was a time limit.

CHAIR: Your colleagues have to decide.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: By all means.

MR. LANGDON: I do not want to hog it, and take it away from someone else.

CHAIR: No, not at all. Feel free. Go right ahead. We appreciate your

interest.

MR. LANGDON: On the federal gas tax, there seems to be a bit of a storm

brewing between St. John's City Council and the Newfoundland Municipal

Financing Corporation. I am just wondering where the minster stands on that one.

Where do you stand with that?

MR. J. BYRNE: Again, on that, the gas tax, all of the details have not

been forthcoming on that from the feds. Last fall, the Federation of

Municipalities were hot to trot on this. The first meeting I had in Quebec City

with the feds on this, they did not even have their plan in place at that time.

They did not know what they were up to at that point in time. They still don't

know, really, as far as - but we are in bilateral talks with them on this.

The gas tax, we had the Federation of Municipalities, locally, coming out

last week. I was in, and there were eight MHAs from the Avalon, and three

ministers, who met with a number of mayors and councillors on the Avalon in

Mount Pearl. Mr. Brett came forward with a proposal of 10 per cent off the top,

and then a per capita basis. I do not know if that can work. We had, I thought,

a good working relationship with the Federation of Municipalities. I had at

least fifteen or twenty meetings with them over the past year or so. We thought

that, before they would put something forward like that, they would actually

come in and discuss it with us, and they did not. That is their take on it.

The City of St. John's, of course, is certainly strongly opposed to it, for

obvious reasons. Where we are on it now, again, we need to sit down, get all of

the details of what is going to be happening, talk to the Federation and try to

come up with a formula that is equitable to the people of the Province, all over

the Province.

I know one of the criteria that is going to be put in place when it comes

forward is, I think, Baxter, that all people have to have access to this money.

Is that correct?

MR. ROSE: The federal government's position is that every municipality

- what they describe as a municipality - must have access to funding under this

program. That would include local service districts and unincorporated

communities as well, which the Federation has to take into account.

MR. J. BYRNE: Not necessarily access to the money, but I think they have

to have benefits from it. Would that be a better way of putting it?

MR. LANGDON: How would you do that?

MR. J. BYRNE: There are ways of doing it, I suppose. It depends on your

approach to it. It depends on the services that you are going to put in a

specific area, who would take advantage of these services in an area.

MR. LANGDON: With many of the unincorporated areas and the local service

districts, the amount that they pay into local taxation is practically nil.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, what we take out of the unincorporated areas is 50

per cent of what, on a per capita basis, we put into incorporated areas. They do

put some money into the system.

MR. LANGDON: One of the things that I would like for you to be able to

get for me over the next number of days, I heard yesterday morning on the CBC,

this fellow John Dinn, I think it was. I did not agree with what he was saying,

and I know the difference, but I just want to confirm it from the officials at

the department. They were talking about a 10 per cent rule, where you give all

municipalities 10 per cent and then divide it equally among all the other

municipalities according to population.

Mr. Dinn says, well, if the smaller municipalities outside of the area raise

their mill rates above four or five, which is normal across the Province, then

they could raise some extra money for themselves. I mean, that is a total

misrepresentation of what the small municipalities have out there. You would

know that I would think it probably might be an average of nine or ten. Some

municipalities have twelve. Even though it is twelve or thirteen or fourteen or

fifteen, in some smaller municipalities, your property is not worth as much

because you do not have the population concentration and so on, and that is very

unfair.

What I would like for the department to be able to do is - or if you could

tell me I could get it through the Municipal Assessment Agency, I can do it

myself - get a list of the municipalities and the average of the mill rate

across the Province and be able to, on my own, respond to Mr. Dinn and the city

council and say it is not right. Because I do know, for example, with water and

sewer - and the minister would know the same thing - there is a community in the

Province that pays over $500 a year for water and sewer. There are communities

that pay more than $400 a year just for water and sewer alone, and in here in

St. John's I think the rate might be $217. To cast that kind of an aspersion

on the small municipalities, rural municipalities where we come from, is not

right. I saw it, as a municipality, as a city, being like the Ontario of the

Federation: they want it all and forget about the smaller municipalities or

smaller provinces getting their fair share. When I heard that, it kind of

troubled me.

MR. J. BYRNE: I didn't hear it.

MR. LANGDON: It was on CBC yesterday morning or the morning before. They

were playing some minutes of the St. John's City Council meeting, and they

were irate that government would even consider taking 10 per cent as a floor

level of the gas tax and then dividing the rest of it on the population.

MR. J. BYRNE: Again, irate that the government would even consider - no

one said that the government is going down that road. That is something that was

put forward by the Federation of Municipalities.

MR. LANGDON: When I heard it, Minister - because the thing is, I am not

trying to be (inaudible). You know me different from that. I had thought that it

was almost, in a sense, a fait accompli, the way that it had been done. The City

of St. John's was pretty much saying that the government had agreed to it.

That is the way that I saw it, but you get your own tape and just have a look

at it for yourself and so on. It is something that, when I heard it, it kind of

made me cringe, because that is not the situation. Many of the rural

municipalities out there are struggling, and that is why we did the debt relief

for them; but as a part of the Debt Relief Program, if I can remember correctly,

we said that you must charge at least $1 a day for water and sewer, and you must

charge at least $1 a day for property, which means $730 a year for your taxes.

That was minimal, and if you did not do that then we did not restructure your

debt. I think that is correct.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, I agree. That is right.

MR. LANGDON: So, that was the thing that I heard from that.

The other thing, as I said, we have been dealing with you on the situation in

Harbour Breton, and the department has been good to us. I do not know what we

would have done, even though it is a small amount for the people who are working

for $6.24 an hour, but it is either that or social services, and we were able to

do that, but obviously that is not the answer.

The problem that the committee is having, the Chair of the IAS Committee met

yesterday, I think it was, or the day before yesterday, with Minister Dunderdale

and some of the other people. It looks as if the federal government is looking

at the Harbour Breton situation and saying, we do not have a program for that.

This is not caused by the federal government. It is where a company in a

particular province, called FPI, decided that they were going to pull up shop

and they were going to move out of the community. It is that particular Province

- this is us - and that company; you deal with it.

So, on the two-year plan that we had put forward to the provincial

government, and you would know because you are on the IAS Committee, Minister,

that if the federal government does not come through with any money, the Town of

Harbour Breton is going to be in big trouble within a couple of days or the

first of May.

I am just wondering to myself, and probably you might be able to do some

thought about it, and not give me an answer here this morning, is the $1.25

million that the provincial government promised that they would come through,

contingent upon the federal government coming through, if the feds do not come

through, then where do we stand? Does the Province then decide that they would

still put up the money for the majority of people who are coming off EI in May?

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, there are two issues here. I think that is something

that we would have to discuss as a committee, if that should happen. Hopefully

that will not happen. Hopefully, the feds will come up with something. That is

something to be discussed or worked on.

The other point with respect to the money that came out of this department,

Municipal and Provincial Affairs, I think it was Christmas Eve -

MR. LANGDON: Yes, it was.

MR. J. BYRNE: Christmas Eve, I think, we were talking and got that

straightened away.

MR. LANGDON: The other thing is, I give you credit for that. I have said

that many, many times.

MR. J. BYRNE: No, no, that is not a problem.

I was really trying, hopefully, to bump it up a bit rather than the minimum

wage type of thing, but if you did that there, you had all these other projects

across the Province. I mean, it was a conundrum, there is no doubt about that.

Then again, like you said, we did what we could at that point in time. As the

Premier said, we are there, so hopefully we can get the feds involved to do

their part.

MR. LANGDON: The thing I keep going back to, because it is a major

problem for us, for me, I do not think it is like any other make-work project. I

have been around sixteen years yesterday, having been elected -

MR. J. BYRNE: April 19?

MR. LANGDON: No, today, the twentieth. Is today the twentieth? It is

today, then.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. LANGDON: Yes, I think it is sixteen years today.

OFFICIAL: Congratulations.

MR. J. BYRNE: Very good.

MR. LANGDON: The situation that I see down there, the people who run the

plant have been there for sixteen years. I cannot think of either one of them

ever being on a make-work project to draw make-work money. Now, other people in

the community did, like they have traditionally in Newfoundland.

This situation - and, Minister, you would know - like I said at the meetings,

these people were caught off guard. The guillotine was just dropped on you

immediately and they had no recourse. With the people in the community, man and

wife or spouse or whatever, between the two of them, making $25 an hour to pay

for their mortgage and their car payments and everything else, and then

instantly, like the guillotine, they were down to $12 and they could not make

the payments. It is still happening now where people are carrying back their

cars. They cannot afford them. Parents are taking the cable out of the house,

and taking out the Internet. The Internet is not a luxury; it is a part of the

education thing. The drama that is involved with that, the pressure is just

unreal, and mounting.

MR. J. BYRNE: It is the same type of impact that the cod moratorium had

back when that first started, on that localized area.

MR. LANGDON: That is right, and that is why we are having problems. The

feds say we did not put a moratorium in place; FPI got as much fish this year as

they did last. It was a corporate decision, and we do not have a program for it.

We are having some difficulty. We were in Ottawa two weeks ago and it does

not look too promising. For the people who are there, the bulk of the people are

on Employment Insurance come a couple of weeks' time, so I thought I would

bring that up.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay.

Certainly, you don't have to bring your views forward because we already

know them anyway.

MR. LANGDON: That is right.

CHAIR: Ms Jones.

MS JONES: Under the Estimates

section 3.2.03. there is Community

Development - Coastal Labrador. What is that?

MR. J. BYRNE: Under 3.2 -

MS JONES: Under 3.2.03.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, what are you asking for? What is the question?

MS JONES: What is it, Community Development - Coastal Labrador?

MR. J. BYRNE: That is the federal money, isn't it?

MS JONES: The money there, I will find the Estimates page.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is the cost-shared agreement with the feds for the

projects in Labrador. It is the Inuit Agreement that has been on the go for

years. That is water and sewer projects, those types of things, infrastructure.

MS JONES: Okay.

What about the Combined Councils? Have you guys approved any money for them

this year?

MR. J. BYRNE: I think we gave them $100,000 last year. That has not been

decided yet. No, we have not approved any yet.

MS JONES: Is there any particular reason? Isn't their agreement run

out, their funding from last year?

MR. J. BYRNE: I was speaking to Mr. Snook. He was in my office within the

past couple of weeks. I had a meeting with him and had some discussions on that.

I told him I would let him know as soon as possible. It is being discussed

MS JONES: So there is no reason for it to be delayed, other than you guys

haven't had an opportunity to deal with it, or what?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, I would say that is pretty well it.

MS JONES: Are they assured there will be some funding?

MR. J. BYRNE: That comes out of special assistance.

MS JONES: Have they been assured there will be some funding, or that has

not been decided?

MR. J. BYRNE: That has not been decided.

MS JONES: I guess I do not need to tell you the important role that the

Combined Councils play in municipal government in Labrador.

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Snook made the case when we met with him. There was

some discussion around the situation where the thirteen Cabinet ministers and

the Premier - or twelve Cabinet ministers, I think, one missed - went to

Labrador and we brought in all the mayors, that type of thing, and there was

some discussion around that, and the Combined Councils having their meeting,

because we are planning on doing that each year, at least once a year, and some

discussion around the Combined Councils having their meeting around the same

time, type of thing, so there have been some discussions on that.

MS JONES: The Combined Councils itself, its only role is not just to meet

with Cabinet ministers. It is also an opportunity for municipalities to get

together -

MR. J. BYRNE: I am talking about the mayors and councillors we brought in

to meet with us. The Combined Councils could have their meeting around the same

time. When the money was first allocated to the Combined Councils, it went from

$30,000 to $50,000 to $70,000 to $100,000. When it was first allocated or given

to them it was to assist in transportation costs for the Combined Councils.

MS JONES: When do you think you will have a decision made on it?

MR. J. BYRNE: In the not too distant future.

MS JONES: Okay.

With regard to funding for Local Service Districts, is there still funding

available for them, for Local Service Districts?

MR. J. BYRNE: For certain projects. We have water projects and wells,

these types of things. Some do hook up to water supplies, but there is some

assistance there, yes. That would come under the Capital Works Programs.

MS JONES: Can Local Service Districts get funding for artesian well

programs, for artesian wells for their communities.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MS JONES: They can. How do they apply for that funding? Is it the same

as-

MR. J. BYRNE: The same process as a municipality.

MS JONES: They do not have engineers and they do not have budgets to hire

engineers, so how does that work?

MR. J. BYRNE: That is why we are trying to encourage them to incorporate

as municipalities. There are problems out there with the Local Service Districts

on that because they are so low scale with respect to their-

MS JONES: I cannot hear you.

MR. J. BYRNE: There are problems out there with respect to Local Service

Districts, with respect to the engineering services and these types of things,

because they do not have the funds and what have you. Then again, usually the

cost associated with engineering fees and these types of things, a lot of it is

born out by the department anyway. depending on their percentages.

MS JONES: I have a couple of situations in my district where Local

Service Districts want to look at artesian wells, but we cannot get an engineer

to even come in and look at it. They know they have no money, they do not have

the resources, and so on. In a situation like that, does the department provide

that service? How would that work?

MR. J. BYRNE: I think what you need to do is make application, contact

the regional office. If there is anything that we can do to assist them, we

will. That is where our mind is, where it has been. Again, when you are looking

at artesian wells, some artesian wells are put down and are not serviceable

because of the type of water, minerals and these types of things. It depends on

the location, to be honest with you. I think if there is a community out there,

a Local Service District, that is interested in putting down an artesian well to

service their people, they should make application. We know that Local Service

Districts, if they are given a service, they charge a fee for it to help offset

the costs. There is a lot of- what is the right word - areas, I suppose, where

Local Service Districts do not go. Roads is one.

MS JONES: Would these projects be 100 per cent funded to the local

service districts?

MR. J. BYRNE: No.

MS JONES: Not necessarily.

MR. J. BYRNE: It could be upwards of a 70-30 type of thing. Therefore, if

you have a local service district that has put down an artesian well and it is

going to cost $20,000, we could pay $14,000 and then the number of houses would

try and come up with some kind of a fee to offset the cost to the residents over

a period of time.

MS JONES: Yes.

Before I go, just a couple of questions on the Estimates piece.

Section 2.1.01, Support to Municipalities, Salaries increased by $71,000 for

2005-2006. Is this new positions? Are they permanent or temporary? What are

they?

MR. J. BYRNE: The situation is that we had, I think, a couple of

retirements that had been budgeted for, that people would retire and they did

not retire. Then we had to bump it back up because they are still there and they

have told us they are not retiring.

MS JONES: Would that explain why the Budget was revised last year by

$30,000?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MS JONES: Under Policy and Planning, 2.2.01, the Salaries increased by

$123,000. There was $173,000 budgeted last year, $263,000 -

MR. J. BYRNE: Same thing, retirements. People who we anticipated would

retire, their time was in, they did not retire. We have another individual over

there now who is looking at putting together some kind of a strategic plan for

capital infrastructure throughout the Province with all the municipalities,

looking at what is there and what needs to go there in various municipalities.

MS JONES: I am to assume, then, that if these people had retired the

positions would not have been refilled, because the money was not budgeted for

that.

MR. J. BYRNE: As you know, with respect to layoffs in government, we said

there would be x amount and we would try and do it through attrition. That is

what we were looking at. We were not planning on replacing them if they retired,

but it may come to a point where you have to replace certain individuals.

MS JONES: Also under that same head, there was a $135,000 increase in the

Policy and Planning budget voted for.

MR. J. BYRNE: Where is that again?

MS JONES: Under 2.2.01.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is it Salaries you are talking about? Which subhead there?

MS JONES: Under the Policy and Planning.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MS JONES: Never mind, I am looking at the wrong one. Forget it. I had to

go over my own notes then.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay.

MS JONES: The Urban and Rural Planning which is

section 2.2.02, the

request for this year is down by $11,300, but last year the division overspent

on the Salaries by $37,000. Do you want to explain that to me?

MR. J. BYRNE: Urban and Rural Planning, Salaries you are talking about,

01?

MS JONES: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Again, retirement. A person who we had anticipated would

retire did not retire. You talking about $296,000 up to $333,000 under

subsection 2.2.02.01, Salaries?

MS JONES: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: The person did not retire, so we had to bump it up. Now, we

are expecting him to retire this year, him or her.

MS JONES: Under the Industrial Water Services, Purchased Services and

Professional Services are down from last year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Professional Services?

MS JONES: Industrial Water Services, 2.3.02, Professional Services and

Purchased Services are down.

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, yes. That is down because we are hoping to transfer a

couple of the water services to municipalities, and therefore it would not be as

much on government to maintain and upkeep if the municipalities take them over.

MS JONES: Which ones would they be then?

MR. J. BYRNE: I can get it for you, I do not know. We have nine, two that

are going to be taken over which will leave us with seven, I think.

MS JONES: Mr. Chairman, those are all the questions I have. I would like

to thank the minister and his officials for their co-operation this morning. I

very much appreciate it.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

MR. LANGDON: I have a couple of more.

CHAIR: Go ahead, Mr. Langdon.

MR. LANGDON: On the water supply for Marystown, I think that was one of

the towns that was on the Industrial Water Supply. We have allocated money for

them, haven't we, for Marystown for a new water supply?

MR. J. BYRNE: Marystown - I will have to check on that one for you.

MR. LANGDON: Didn't we approve a new water supply for Marystown a

couple of years ago?

MR. J. BYRNE: We did. I think you did, and I think we are funding it. I

think that is ongoing.

MR. LANGDON: Yes, that is what I am saying. That is one of the ones that

would be off there.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, that is right, that is coming off. I see where you are

going.

MR. LANGDON: One of the other towns that had some problems with the way

the work was being done was the Town of Englee. Even when I was there, they were

saying that the engineering work was not done the way they had wanted it to be

and that was giving them problems. Has that been corrected?

MR. J. BYRNE: We are trying to work out an agreement with Englee to take

it over. What they are saying to me - and it goes back to engineering problems -

when the lines were put in the lines were waving like this, and that therefore

causes airlock. We had our engineering department look at this, Wayne and

others, and we had a private engineer look at it. They are saying what is being

put forward by the Town of Englee is not quite accurate. We are trying to work

something out with them. They are saying it is going to cost x amount of dollars

to correct it, the engineers are saying it is going to cost less than that, so

we are trying to work something out with the Town of Englee to correct that

problem and get it done.

MR. LANGDON: Again, talking about the emergency measures, Mr. Hollett is

still with the department is he, Municipal and Provincial Affairs, a part of

your outfit?

Just a note from the media a few days ago, talking about the rocket - the

people at the Emergency Measures Organization knew about it probably five or six

days before the Premier's office did. Did the minister know?

MR. J. BYRNE: No. What had happened was the EMO were notified March 31.

On April 8, which was the following Friday, I had found out at about 1:15 p.m.

as I was going out the door. The department was trying to come up with more

substantial information, because it was very vague, on the time lines with

respect to when it would go and when it would not go. It was only yesterday, I

think, it was determined that it was delayed again. Once the Premier's office

got involved he got more substantial answers more quickly. The department did

not notify the Premier's office until that Friday. The Premier was in the

media the day before, of course. Then again, not to make excuses, the people in

the department were trying to get more concrete information to put forward.

MR. LANGDON: I understand, sir.

The other thing, one of the projects that was not completed when I was there

a couple of years ago, was those mobile trailers that were supposed to have been

distributed before I left but they were not. Have they all been distributed now?

MR. J. BYRNE: That is done. We got the money last year. Two new trucks

and two new trailers have been purchased.

OFFICIAL: He is talking about the HAZMAT trailers.

MR. LANGDON: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, I thought you were talking about another issue. The

HAZMAT trailers, working with the agreements with the towns now, there are still

a couple out there that are iffy, based on certain problems they may have with

respect to liabilities and these types of things. The last discussion I had with

the Fire Commissioner was that would be happening in the very near future.

MR. LANGDON: One of the units that was scheduled to go to Bay d' Espoir,

our part of the coast, the Fire Commissioner nixed that and did not send it

down. Where did that trailer go?

MR. J. BYRNE: There were nine trailers. I am told - I did have

discussions before and was informed of this - that the tenth has not been

assigned and it may be used for training around the Province.

MR. LANGDON: Okay, I will leave it at that.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

Are there any other members of the Committee who would like to ask some

questions of the minister or his staff? Okay, thank you.

Having said that and there being no further questions, I would ask the Clerk

if she would now call - we agreed that we would do all of the heads from 1.1.01

to 4.1.04 together inclusive. I would ask the Clerk if she would call those.

CLERK (Murphy): 1.1.01 to 4.1.04 inclusive.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01 to 4.1.04 inclusive, carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.1.04 carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report then the Department of Municipal and Provincial

Affairs carried without amendment?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, total heads

carried.

CHAIR: I thank you all very much.

To the Members of the Committee, we are meeting tonight at 7:00 p.m., I think

it is here in the House, and we are dealing with the Department of HRLE, the

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation and Women's Policies.

To the Minister, thank you, and to your staff, thank you very much for your

insightful answers and giving us the good sense of what the department is all

about for next year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, very much.

CHAIR: Thank you.

The Committee now stands adjourned.