VOL. 2 .. 1' RELil'liN.I\_RY T.T~·:ED I 'rED TRA::1SCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDI'.Y I I-1ARCH 12, 1980 :-.;o. 9

N.o.r.:;..'l 1:;, l SSO 'l'ap~ :;o. Jn;; NM - 1 Tfle Eou.se t:.et: at 3 : 00 ? a!•t . ~k . Speaker in the Chair . ~~q . S?EA~~ (Simms) : oreer, please! Could I have the a~ tent ion of non . me!!lbers'? I have ?. nurtt..ber of :11-atter.s ,,..::tich .! \«:-uld like to rcise .. ?irst o f all~ ! =m pre;: .a.r2d !:o ma ke a rul inc; on the poi~t o: privile~e raised by the hon. member for t~e Strait o:f Selle Isle (~!r .

Roberts), b.ut seeing anotne:- ;;;ember involved. is not: i.rl attendance at tr..is particular mome:1t I •.-1ill cive t:ha.t a E=le later on . ! ha,·e received a cc=unication ••·hich I ~eve ~een askec ~o pass alo~ to members of the House of Assembly. I~ is "ddroasseC., "!:lea::- ~lr . S;:>ea.~e=, ! woulc i:e vey ;;>leased if yo~; ~~uld extend my thanks and ~ ratit ude.t:~ough the F.ouse of Assa~bly, 'tO t.he hon.

Charles Powez , and che ocher me~rs o.= ':he search part· ·' .,.,ho t>-e.re instrumental i-n saving my life <Uld the life o! my brothe .r­ in- li!w, Thomas :1ahor:e y . :•eze it r:ot for the perseverance anci st:,!:e..,qth of '!::::. oor....7e !" and che. ot:h ez-s ou_:- liv.es li.'O'..Jld cer'tair.ly have been lost. as thi!' RC:'!P offi ·cer b c!'la::qe ~;,·as reluctant t o permit anyone t:o bag in searc~inq at: the time because ::>f .. •eat her .

These courageous i~1ividuals chose to begin on the~ o ·~ and despite extremely a~ve r se conditions "'ere succo:ssful." .n.:1d T !lave an outlin e of the stor y .. •hie!\ I will table for an y hen . member ... ho "'•ishes to read it . SO:-!!: HOM. MEHSERS : Hear, hea~! HR. S!'EAlCER• Hen. members will also recall that during yesterday ' s sit: tin<; a matt.er of co~cern . .,as raised relative to Question Period .

The matter of procedure during Quest i on oerioo, and t.l-te f.ramin9 of quest :ions . and I might add answers to questions, have come up on a n1.1lllber of occasions since I have J::..,en Speaker. .fl.s wel l I note from Hansard that the matter recei ved a fair amount of atter.tion d\lring the tenure of the last Speaker of this House . 795

~la rch 12, 1~80 '!'ape ~lo . 305 N'' - ., :-!R . S?.:.'\.'a::t (Ei=sl : Firsr o: all : sha :l ~o~e :ro~ ~he Scandin~ Orders . s::aneinc; Order ~ 3l{c) "rn putcing zr.y oral que!ICiolls, no a..-<;ument:: or opinion is :o be offered nor any ~acts stated ex ·cept so far as may be necessarv to expl;d.n the sa!'le; and in ens·~rinq any s~ch question, ~~e ~iniscer ~s not ::o debate che ::tat:.er to to~hi.c!t it. refe:-s . ''(

d) oral questions must noc be preface.: by che reading o= letcers, celeg r~ns, newspaper extracts or pre ­ ambles o: any ki:'!C.

"(e) ~. ~·:inister may ir. f"..is C!.sc:-etion decline co an~~ any question . ''(gl A ~lem.'"ler '"'ho is noc satisfied '"'l.::. h the response t:o <1n or~l quest:ion may give notice that he intends eo raise t.he sab.jecc :na::::er o: his question on ti:e adjourn.-,ent of che :ouse. •• I •...ould also refer hon . me~ers to pa~es 129 to 134 of 3eauchesne and r quote specifically , ~aqraph 358, "In 1964, ::he ;i'Pecial Commit;:ee on Procedure reco=e.."ld ed che !:ollo·dng auidelines. ···hich ·.-ere subsequent!·; concurred b by ::he Rouse, to be usee by '!eobers i:! asking or ans~ering oral questions:

(1) Sue~ auestions s~ould : (

a) be ~s~ed only L~ respect of ~atte r s of sufficie .n;: urgency and impor::ance as to reC'.lire an im:ne~:llace ans•,.er: (

b) not inquire whether statements Made in a ne wspaper are cor rect; (

c) not re~.lire an an sw er involving a legal opinion; (<!) not be asked in :::espect cf a JT..atter that is sub-judice; (

e) may not ~ of a nature 796

March 12, 1980, Tape 306, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Simms ): requiring a lengthy and detailed answer; and (

f) not raise a matter of policy too large to be dealt with as an answer to a question.

(2) Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, should deal 'l'lith the matters raised, and shculd not provoke debate. Paragraph 359, which reads in part: "

(1) It must be a question, not an expression of an opinion, representation, argumentation, nor debate. "

(2) The question must be brief. A

preamble need not exceed one carefully drawn sentence. A long pre~ble on a long question takes an unfair share of time and provokes the same sort of reply. A supplementary question should need no

preamble. "

(8) A question that has previously been answered ought not to be asked again." Paragraph 363: 'A Minister may decline to answer a question without stating the reason for his refusal, and insistence on an asnwer is out of order, with no debate being allowed. A refusal to answer cannot be raised as a question of privilege, nor is it regular to co~~ent upon such a refusal.

A Member may put a question but has no right to insist upon an answer.' Paragraph 371: "Although there may be no debate on an answer, further questions, as may be necessary for the elucidation of the answers that have been given, within due limits, may be addressed to a Minister. The extent to which supplementary questions may be asked is in the discretion of the Speaker.' As I have stated, I have on numerous occasions made the ruling that both 797

March 12, 1980, Tape 306, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER (Simms): qu est io ns as wel l a s answers should be brief, to the point,and that questions should contain very little

preamble and t.!J.at ans\vers should not give rise to debate. Hon. members will realize, I hope, that I have atta~pted to be fair and flexible at the same time. I ha~e no desire to continuously interrupt members on a regular basis. The final comment I would like to make is that while I have an obligation to quote and enforce the rules as they relate to Question Period, hon. members,too, I believe, have an obligation to adhere to those rules. SOME HON. ME~~ERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I refer to the ruling I mentioned a few moments ago, which I am now prepared to give.

Hon. members Nill recall that during yesterday's sitting,the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) raised a question of privilege on which I reserved a decision. I ~~ now in a position to give a ruling. The matter pertained to remarks made by the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy (~x. Barry). First I would like to point out that I give this decision under the general framework of order rather than privilege, understanding that the gist of the submission of the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle to be his allegation of imputing motives by the hon. minister.

I do not believe it is necessary for me to repeat those remarks, as they are contained in Hansard which is available for anyone who wishes to see them. In reacing over that particular

section I find myself in a somewhat difficult position 798

March 12, 1980, Tape 306, Page 3 -- apb l•!R. SPEA:KER ( S i;::'.'llS) : understanding of the words. i:-1 the lite::-al In the overall context, which I have to consider, I find the remarks to be some'dha t ambiguous. 799

March 12,1980 MR.SPEAKER (Simms) Tape No . 30 7 AH-1 Th ey are , I b el ieve cap abl e o f being interpreted as unparliamentary but they are also capable of being interpreted as not being unparliamentary. So given the ambiguous nature of the commeLts what I will do is call on the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.Barry) to clarify his position in informing the House and I would like to ask him to state to the House that it was not his intention to impute motives and I think that will dispose of the matter. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, if I could remember what I said I would clarify it but of course I had no intention whatsoever of imputing motives. ! am sure that if I go back to Hansard and look at it,it will be obvious what my intent was but at the present time I wil: say that obviously there was no inten~ to impute motives aod if there was any such impression in the ambiguous words there, Mr. Speaker, they are completely withdrawn, unequivocally withdrawn. MR. SPEAKER: I thank the hon. minister and I think that will dispose of the matter. MR. SPEAKER: n.nd Manpower. MR.DINN: STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS The hon.

Minister of Labour Mr. 3peaker, we have ha~ some reports in the press of late,and :very once a month Statistics Canada and the typewriter at Central Statistics here in Newfoundland gets a nervous break~own and starts spewing out paper and giving various statistics on the employment, unemployment and participation rate of Newfoundlanders in the labour force, etc., I thought I would make hon. members aware that the unemployment rate in Newfoundland today, act~el figures is 15.9,which is a 2.9 per cent better figure than last year.

In the last month, January 1980 to February 1980 the labour force increased by 4,000 people and the people employed increased by 5,000 people so it is the continuing 800

l•!a::c h 12, 19ev Tape :io. 3 AH-2 ~!!'t . !:liNN: e~for~ o! ~ov~ ~ ~ment ~o imp rove ~he statist ic s wi~h respect to an empLo y~ant and ew~loymant in Ne,..,foundlenC ~ And the acjus~eo =i gu~es - ! will also ~hat hon . ~em~e:s in asking questions at the last sitting c£ c.he requested o: z~ some i~fo r mac~on wi~h respec~ to what I thought the une~ploymen~ ::ace would reach t~1s yaa~ and I indicated to hon. mem ~e::s that we assumed and we thoughc :r~m ou r var1ous s~ atistical Ca~~ ~ h~ t ~r.e u~e~ploymen~ =ate ·.,youlC :lC't. be ~s bad as last :ear and c.h..: t ";;e wou~C be wit~~in t.he t.wo ;tercentage !:'anqe, ether wo:::-ds, t-!1.is yea: it ~ould be two percentage point s lowe:: ~han last yea r: As sual. ~r.

Speaker, I ~as cc~servac~ve wi~~ 801

March 12, 19 80 Tape 30 8 EC - 1 MR. J. DINN: my figures and,indeed, we have improved even over that percentage point. And I would ~~ink t~at for the rest of the year that these figures would improve even more. one would also note that from March of last year, including every month up to this point in time, the figures have been better. We would hope that they would continue to improve, and I am sure all hon. members will be aware when the Budget is brought down later on this month that the programmes as outlined in the Budget will also improve the statistical figures.

Albeit they are Statistics Canada figures, they are not as accurate as they should be. If they are taken on a month to month basis and over • one year period, then we can say that at least they are as accurate now as they were last year and ~~e situation is improving. SOME HON . MEMBE RS : MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. T. LUSH: Hear, hear! ~e hon. the member for Terra Nova, Mr.

Speaker, it is a new thing for the minister to re-inform us of the labour force statistics as compiled by Statistics Canada, but let it be said that we on this side of the House naturally welcome any improvement in the unemploT-Dent rate in this Province. However, let it be said that we still stand at a ridiculously high level of unemployment, at approltimately 16 per cent in the actual figures. But as the minister said, it represents just about a 3 per cent improvement - 2.9 per cent - and we certainly welcome that. Of course, there are several things that one could comment on with respect to these statistics.

We hon. members are all aware of the point that is made of how accurate the figures are and that there are many hidden numbers of unemployed, but,be that as it may, I suppose they are accurate insofar as the criteria that is used. We could use any set of criteria and come up with a different set of figures. But, as I said, let it be known to all hon. members - and particularly the government - that we are pleased with any reduction in the unemployment rate in this Province and glad to see that the unemployment rate is going down. What we would look forward to, of course, is some continuity in this, and 802

March 12, 198 0 Tape 308 EC - 2 !iR. T. Li.JSH : we will have to w~i~ over ~~other year to see ~~at this trend con~inues. If it Coes, it is going t~ be not on!y welcome to hon. members, but a welco~e bit of news to ail people in tr.is Province to know that we are making 603

March 12, 1980 Tape llo. 309 SD - 1 MR. T. LUSH: some progress, that we are ma~ing some progress towards reducing the atrociously high rate ~f unemployment in this Province and we hope that next year we can see naturally a continuing trend and by the way this is going that over a period of three years then we will get it down at least to the national average. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. OR.'U. Qt1J:2STIONS ~.P .• SPEAKER (Sinuns) : The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans followed by the hon. member for La Poile. MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my questicn is to the Minister of Mines and Energy (1-'.r. L. Barry) ,and if 'four Honou:::: will permit a very short

preamble, the minister is aware 1 as dll members of the House of Assembly are awarc,of the vecy grave sense of insecurity or insecure sense or uncertain sense , atmosphere that exists in Buchans today with the town living with an i:npending mine shut-down. The latest projection the company will make is August.

The Ho\!Se will also know that over the years I have indicateG ~e short term solution to this problem is for the companies concerned to bring ir.to production some of the ore bodies that they have been sitting on that have been discovered , and if brought to production would have the effect of prolongir.:: the life expectancy of t.'lat mine and shoring up t.'le economy of the whole central area. The ore body I am think of specifically, which the minister is familiar with, is the Tulk's ore body, fairly high-grade concentrates and a quantity that would warrant production under the circumstances.

Would the minister indicate to the House if he is aware of what the companies concerned, }.hi tibi Price and AS~, present intentions are with reqards to the Tulk' s deposit?., Is it their intention to bring that ore body into production in time to prolong the life e~ectancy of of mine? 804

Marc h 12, 1980 Tape NO. 309 SD - 2 MR. SPEAKER. (SiJnms) : The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I am aware of what the companies are proposing. I have requested official,s of the COII!Panies to come in and explain within the next few days in more detail, lliOre full.y, their plans and I will be making further statements at the appropriate time and specifically I refer to the fact that within the next ten days I will be having a f~~~er meeting with the Buchans Action Colllllli.ttee;.

And as soon as we have firm infopnation as to the companies' plans I shall be bringing them to the attention of this hon. HOuse and th~ people of Buchans. We are doing everything possible to see that whatever in the way of viable industry,whether it be continued. mining operations at the Tulk's deposit, whether it be deveiopinq barite operations, whatever might be feasi.ble and viable to reduce unemployment in the Buchans area,we are seeking to have carried out. MR, G. PLIGHT: supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SP~R: Supplementary, the hon. member £or Windsor - Buchans • MR. G. FLI.GH'l': Mr. Speaker, Mr.

Minister, there are indications in Buchans; meetings have been held in the past day or so whereby,as I understand it,that the compapies have indicated their intention and their ability to develop the • < Tulk • s mine, and 805

~~ a:-c;, 12 l3c..O . ·a::-e :io. 310 O::L - ~"-' · G. F!.rlGi~~ : the rarific~tions of that are ~s~ for the Buchans area and the ~o.·hole central area -the Euchans, Buchans Junr:t- ion, !tillertown area. The indication is that the quantity of ore required is there, that markets are assured and the <;race of ore is acceptable, and they have appare.ntly in<licated to very con­ cerned groups that they are looking at b:::-inging that ore bocy into production. However, there IT'ay be other factors that ~o.·ou1.c stop or would have some effect on ;.;hether it went into produt;:tion or no.t.

And the coropanies concerned may want to take aci­ vantage of programs that are already in place; access roads, the ore body is twelve or thirteen miles MR. SPEAKE;R (Silt'll's) : Order, please! I think the han. member's

preamble is a little too long. If he has a question,! would direct him to ask it. MR. G. FLIGhT_: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, 'ttle ore body is well rerr.oved frorr. Buchans and access roads would have to be a consideration and I woUld want to ask the minister -and ! am not talking about subsidies to a mine, because I do not believe in sub­ sidies unless the mine can stand on its own feet.

But if, for argument's sake, the company can bring t.'lat ore body into production, bllt government assistance, under exi.;;ting prograir.s is desired or necessary, will the minister a.ssure the House that whatever govern­ ment assistan~e by way of infrastructure that is required to get that mine into production, will indeed be made availabl~ to those two companies? f.'.R. SPEAKER (Si=s) : The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. L. Bi".RRY: Mr. Spe<ilier, if the company has made a public statement as set out by the hon.member,it ha.s not 306

~· arc ~ 1.2. 1\?SO Tape )Ia. 31 0 ::r. - MR. L. BARRY: been brought to my attention and I will l:>e quite incerested in seeing a copy of the company's state­ ment. I suspect that the han. me~ber, what he is setting aut is somewhat prerrature. When I have info=ation, firm in­ formation which can be released, it will be released, Mr. Speaker.

I can say we ha,re had ongoing discussions and I am having. as I just ttentioned, within the next few days, further discussions to see if we can have, at the earliest FOssible cppo.::-tunity, the develo~­ ment of any deposits o;hich might be economically developed in the Buchans area.

With respect to the provision of infrastructure ,this government has maee it clear that before the taxpayers' dollars are put into any industrial enterprise, we have to be shown the economics of the particular situation and we have to be shown that the infrastructure, the taxpayers' investment,is necessary in order to make a project viable. And if, in fact, it is ~~e case that we are shown that government assistance with infrastructure is necessary to make it viable,then we will be very sympathetic in looking at any such proposal. ~~~R (Simms): A final supplell'entary, the han. the member for Windsor - Buchans.

MR. G. n.IGHT: For the information of the House, Mr. Speaker, I did not indicate nor did I intend to indicate that the companies concerned, Abitibi Price or ASARCO,had made a public state~ent. I said that they have, the principals of the companies have hild meetings with very interested groups in Buchan$ who have vested interests in that mine site, that tho .se meetings have been held. So I would like to ask the mir.ister if he would be 100re 607

~:arch 1.2~ :..s.so Tape :.;o. 31 Q EL - 3 ~·~? •. G. F:.IGGT: definitive, be pre.careC to ~E. r-or~ d.-=finitive ar .. d ir~dicate \'.rh~~ exactly ~he r.ee~inas tha.~ I:~ ~efer:s to are ::a~:ing ~lace bet•.-ree!l his Ccpart..TT£nt and the p~incipals o:f the t .. ....;o r.,ining CDIT'panies concerr.ed, i·:h2E exa.ctly t~ose rree~i:-.t;s are takin~ rlace anC •.-;hat ar~ t~e ~ur~cs2s ":::e :eeti:-t~~ .- ; re t~:::y sirr s- l y for the !" i~ister' s BOB

:·:a::c!l 12 , 19 !!0 .a?e )~ o . 3 11 m• - 1 ~ ta.* G . .? ~ z~ n ~: adi..fi"Ca~ i o:"l. as to '"'~.a': the conpe:1y 1 s i:1:.-anti. o rs 3!"e ::..: ~ il ! there b e a~ a~nounce me ~t? !s th~ minis~e= a ~ a~a ~o~ ~ c~ a t a s o~ t ~ o s s m e ~ ci n; s b ~!~ c ~e !d t ~ e~e ~ill be a n a:.i:"'OU:lceme!"l: ~ ~ a ~ ~ ~ ~= o :e b od y i3 i~eee d 90i~g i~to prcciu~t!on ? Jus~ s p~ cifical l y wh en will those meecings be b .elci, !, ::.

S? ea. ." : ::-, =.::d 't~h en e.oes t!-'.e :tinis:.-er fe e l ~ fi ·,;il l b e .:..:"' .. ~ position :.n c~ ~'C' i:· · -:.!'le si.tu ~ cior. ? ~2 . 5?2 ~~~~ { Si ~n sl: The bon. ~inister of Mines a:"!c · En e r .;;n · . i::::;. • !.. • 3 1;.;,?

Y : :-lr. ~ ,::. ea ke~, t ~ !. s c;' 0";-2~ !'1--~E ~ : has ne·te:: aCoot ed t.!le ? h i los o pr. :., t=-:a:: ·":e s~n- u l:3. m a~e a.:u~o u r.ce- ~ant s wi : h ~es pe ct co s n~cu n c e nen~s. ~ n d all ! can ~ay i s t~at ~h e~ ~ e ar~ i ~ a p os~~io~ ~o ~ a k ~ a sta·te men: a s co ch e p lans o~ =n e co~penies in t ~ e ~ uc~a~s ar~a 1 I wiil n ~ ma~in c :~at st.a.te ::\e nt. .".nd my eeti n; s w i~~ co~~ Gn y of:ict a ls wi ll be within the ~ext s e v ~ ral d a y s. ~! :!.. SPEAK!:?:: ~ h e ho~ . ~e~ ~ e~ fo= La ~v il e. ~! .?... s . : : =:;..~tt": Mr.

Speaker, my ~uestion is for t~~ ~t inis ~ e~ of : u ~~ica { ~r .

C tte~hai~ e r) , S ~r. :.;o ul C t~e ~iniscer t e ll t h e Eouse i ~ ~ he at s9~ce o~ an i ~ 7a J ! ~ ~ o! ?ri v ac:· act in t n is Pro vi :"'.ce, if t t :.s le g al fer a.r.: y~ o cl y ~ o s~~ t~ems~l~es up with a telG ? r.one ~r.d a c cm~uce~ - chin~ ch9y call ~~e~selv es · c~e q ue Alercs' -a nd tsv~ all the business p e o ple i~ various pa:~s of the Is lan d call in when som.:c o d comes in to cash~ c~eque, when somebody ma ~ es a pu_rc h ase anc wishes to ca sh a c_r..eqoe, call int.o t his cenr.re anci the person at ':he othe r •,·i 11 tell ·the ln:s i ness people whether or not they can cash the cheques? !s t hi s legal, this kine of ope~a~ion? !s it a n ir.vasion of privacy? :-!R .

SP E A·KER: The !':on. ~li..ni st er oi Justice. 809

:·!~ rc :-, l~ , l., .. ~ -~ ':'a~e ::o. 3:1 :>:·• - 2 t :t. :''::'?~·::£' I ~-!!~~: ·~ r . S~ea~ e=. ~~ a~c~c~ ~·!: 1 ~e qui:.! cene :- ~ :. Ce:::a_::::· _::t-.w.%; ~ .. : :-.:.~~::: -=- ~ ..,:'iv a.e:' : .!-;: !.s:a~io 1 ,a ~ ~.!.t:e d.i::=erent ?OSi. -:.iou c-=-ulC 1:);!: c=~ate~ ~9c a us e t~a: ~;ill c:ea~~ a &eatu: c:y ~e lic:. Sut ~~e~ e :s ~o w a c?~sume= - : Eo: ~o e :~e ~xac~ ~i~le ~= t~e !il! en:o~ce C; a consu.::te ~ - i-: is aC:-ti::.J..s::ereC b:-r ~!: o Dep4 rtme r.c c= Consumer rlffairs ~~C it is cal:~c 'The Connu~e~ Cre~i~ Re~oreing Act ' o: some~hi~r like thac.

A~d i~ co~: c be an in:r1nqe~e'-t oi ~rat Act b..:t :;: cc.,le not say ., e s .., :- -.., . s~: = ~ ~=e is a~ ~c~ ~ove=3i~~ ~he ~~choe a:: ".l =ev~!.ac.ion of c:>r.sa m oer c=e:.:..:. re:.inq a:tC -:-ela .. ~C -a-~e~s . :·!". s. :·::>.1'!Y': • 3. st:.??lemen:.ar· :', :1r. Speaker . XK . SPEAK~2 (Si~~

s) A SU??le~~ntary, t~e hon . me~ber for La?oile. M~ . S . ':C:.>.:t'!: ~r . Spe ake: , t~~se O?erae !o~s . as ~:"te nini3te r knows 4 a:-e quite ~ris:t~er.ing . ':'!':ese peoole can keep records as far back ,! · unc~rs~a:1d,as ~en years a:-:c if so~c~ ~dy goes in ~o cash a cheque and he bap?e ned :o hav e made a l!::l e ~~s~ake :en years ago ,ehese cocky indivLd~als are saying, 'G et you ~ank ra:1ager ~o call us and ~e will wi?e out ~he rec orC' . ~o~ is t::e ~inis :er o!

J~st1ce goi:l£ eo allow this ki nd cf oper at io:1 :o Eunce!on in this ?rovinc~ w he r ~ people 's privacy is ~ ein g :nvaded or will :he mi niseer undertake to inve~tigat~ thesa companies to see i! th~y are !unc:ioning within :he law? 610

--- - --- March 12, 1980 MR. SPEA.'<ER (Silr.ms) : MR. G. OTTENHED1ER: Tape 312 EC - 1 The hen. the l1inister of JustJ.ce. Mr. Speaker, I will certainly check on the provisions of tha Consumer Reporting Agency Act or what exactly it is called - it governs ~1at - and certainly inform the hon. gentleman and the House with respect to ~~at tcn~rrow or,if not, certainly the day after. MR. S. NEARY: MZ1.. SPEAKER: member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary.

A final suppl~entary, the hen. the Did I understand the hon. gentleman to say that there would be a Right to Privacy bill brought into ~~is House? And did the hon. gentleman say it 'could' contain provisions ~o make these operations illegal or 'would' contain provisions to make these operations illegal and run them out of business and out of the Province? MR. SPEAKER: MR. G. OTTENP.EIMER: The hen. the Minister of Justice. Mr.

Speaker, essentially the bill would create by statute a civil wrong for use of information of a private nature and it is related to matters of surveillance, illegitimate or unjustified, unau~~orized surveill~ce, use of computerized personal information and areas of lin_~ge from one purpose to another, impersonation and use of private documents, diaries, let~ers. So I would say that certainly an improper use of this information would be so covered, but it may well be already covered under legislation of the Co~sumer Affairs Department. It is that matter which I will check and inform the hon. gentleman. MR.

SPEAKER: MR. T. BENNETT : The bon. the member for Si;. Barbe. Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the );~.:; ~r of Transportation and CoiiiiiiUnications. While it is certainly delightful to see such a beautification programme being administered along the Trans-Canada Highway and I am sure everybody appreciates the efforts being put into it, would the minister tell the House of Assembly how much it might cost per square yard, or,if you will, per square mile for 5uch a beautification programme, for the landscaping and seeding along the B 1 ·1

;ia:r::: h l2, l9 SD Tape 312 EC - 2 MR. T. BENNETT: Trans-Canada? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Oomm~ications. MR. C. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, no, I do not have that information at hand, but the seeding that was done along the Trans-Canada Highway was part of the upqrading and came under the TCH agreement, so whatever it cost, the Province, of course, would have to pay 50 per cent of it, But I do not know the exact cost per square foot o:r square mile. I will say, Mr.

Speaker, that it is an excellent job and I have had ~any, many letters and telephone calls, and in private conversations people have complimented the government on the job of seeding the Trans-canada Highway. It certainly makes things look a lot better. SOME HOM. MEMBERS : Hear 1 hear! MR. C. B.RETT: I will endeavour to get that answer for the hon. member. 812

~tarch 12, 1980 )1.:1. . SENNETT: M~ . S?EAKER l Sim~s ) : f"o= St.. Barbe. (-!R . :OSNNETT: Tape No . 313 AF.-i. A supple:ne n ta :-:· . A s·upplement:ar y , c.!:e ::on . -m &a4ber I an woneering if ~be nin~s~~r co~ld tell us a~ chis ~ime i: it will be a~ o~~oing proqra~~e a~d if indeed it ~ighc spill over !nto ot~e: areas of the provincial highways of the ?rovince, you k~ow ~ ~he same p ::ogramme? ~!!L S?EAK.ER : and co~munica~ions . :•lR . 3RE'!'T : Th~ hon. ~1nis~ar o ·f Transpo:cat 3on Yes, Mr. Speaker, that will co~cinue to be a pare of our programme as we continue co upg::ade the Trans - Canada Hig~way.

Whe~he~ or ~ot it will extend to ot~er roads I would say pretty w&ll depends on ~he azoun~ of money that is availabl~ . HR. BEN)IE'l'T: .>. supplementary . !'IR . SPEAKER : hon . member for st . Barbe. ~4R . S-E~INJ:"TT : A final supplementaq· 1 the Xr. S?eaker, I an wo~de~in~ how our local concraccors can go about looking tc g~t ~ontr~cts of ~his sore anc what deg r ee of assurance they might get of being able to ~ualify after t~ey co submit a desire to do the contract work that comes aboot by ~he beautification of the Trans - Canada and the other areas ? And wnat ? r ioricy , if a ny , ~r.

Speaker, might we expect with bea~tificacion p r ogrammes as opposed to new road construction or pavio~ cf the e x isting roads? MR . SPEA;(E.R : The bon. Minister of Transportation and Com.mu nicatio n s . !·lR . !lRETT: The se ed ing programme las~ yellr was carried out by a company based in Quebec and the reason for that is because the r e was no one in the Province that bad this machine . r do not know if the hon . membe r ha~ 813

:1arch 12, 19S v Tap e ~:o . 313 J>. H- 2 :-tR. a~T~ : see;; ir: or nct4 AN ?. 0 ~: . H~~~S~R : ( Inaudible ) !4~ . 6il.ETT: Yes, hfd~o some~h~ng .

The~e ~as no machine in the Province, there was no coopa::1y able to han~le it 1 bu~ I u~derstand that a company has bee~ for~ed and that a machine ha s been bo u~ht and I would assu me that this company , if we do a~y rno~e seeding ,woul d b~ tenderin g, and , o= c~urse,bein9 a Newfoundl~nc compa n y , a local company, chen they ~ould get a_ ·ten ?'er ce:1t local preference ane of course that also &pplies ~a pavin; pro?id!ng,of course, ic is no t a D~E2 ~oncract . !f i~ is DREE , then local preferen~e ~oes no t. come in. They do not accept the local prefere::1ce ~olicy, OREE does not. . M?. .

SPJ::.";KER : l!1r.L OSE : The hon . member ~o= Te rra ~ova. Mr . Speaker,! want ~o direct a qu es ~ion co the ~inister of ~unic1pal Af!sirs (Neil ~indsor) relating to the Municipalities Act. Mr . Speaker, specifica l~y there a??ea~s to be a lot of confusion ?ar~icula~ly with smaller councils, councils !:1 ch·e rural parts of Ne•.-!oU -::ldland and just how chis Hunicipali~ies Ace will a~fect cbem in this £iscal year . Fi~st , I want tc ask the minist er ~hether indeed there have been budgets returned this y9ar t.O councils; I understanC: some years ago -::ha;; there 614

March 12, 1980, Tape 314, Page 1 -- apb MR. LUSH: were procedures and mechanisms made whereby councils would get their application in early for their funds for that particular fiscal year. Now they have done the same thing and it has been brought to my attention that many of the budgets have been returned; so the question is, is this so and how will it affect councils in terms of knowing what fiscal arrangements they make for the year 1980? MR. SPEAKER(Sirnrns): The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR .. N. WINDSOR: Mr.

Speaker, first of all, the hon. gentleman is obviously very conf•.1sed as to the whole process. First of all, requests ·that corr.e from municipalities for funding for any particular year - I am sure he is referring to capital funding 1 which has nothing at all to do with the budgetary process of compiling the operational budget, the utility and general budgets for municipalities. The situation as it relates this year, because of the new Hunicipalities Act, obviously, there is, indeed, some confusion. What we have told municipalities is that they should proceed along the lines of previous years.

However, those municipalities which have not yet finanized their budgets, now that the Municipal Grants Act has been made public, and the allocations to municipalities under that Act have been made public, we are suggesting they revise it for t.'1e amounts. T!1ey use the same procedures. The amount of funding to be received from the Province should be adjusted in accordance with the Municipal Grants Act. Nevertheless, the procedures that are used, the compilation of the budget, the two separate budgets as opposed to the one single budget under the new Municipalities 815

March 12, 1980, Tape 314, Page 2 -- apb MR. N. WINDSOR: Act, and the requirement to submit that to tte minister for approval is still being followed as in previous years. The only thing we are suggesting that change, if budgets have not been finalized and finally adopted, is that they make adjusL~ents for the amount that they will actually receive from the Province. But the actual requests from municipalities that are common this time of year really do not relate to that at all; you are talking about capital funding which does not reflect on the current year's budget other than, perhaps, in the interest rates.

I might say, Mr. Speaker, while I am on my feet, if the hon. gentleman will allow me, that just yesterday I did receive the first 100 copies of the Municipalities Act from the Queen's Printer. It has taken some time because of mechanical difficulties, apparently, in printingit. I do have the first 100 copies and expect the balance of 5,000 copies within a week, so that ten copies will be mailed to every municipality together with a covering letter outlining the highlights of the Act and hm-1 it relates to the municipalities, and I will make copies available to hon. members opposite tomorrow. SOME RON.

MEMBERS : MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER(Simms): hon. the member for Terra Nova. Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. The MR. LUSH: The minister did not answer the question specifically. I know of councils that were told to file their budgetary requirements for operation grants, road grants, whatever things councils 816

March 12, 1980, Tape 314, Page 3 -- apb MR. LUSH: apply for, to do them the same as they have done them in the years previous, ar:d they did this only to have the!:! returned. J\nd no 1v are 81 7

~!arch 12, 1980 1'a9e No. 315 NM - 1 MR. LUSH: fcllowin9 another procedure, according to the new Municipalities .".ct, r.>r': those are the facts. That is "hat happened. My question to the I".inister is~ •...rhat delay will this cause? Because as I have said before, the government have attempted to spe-=d up this process and here •,;e a~e now into the mo.'lth of ~!arch and councils have just received their budg~ts back 0 How long will the delay be? When will they kno~' ••hat p~ecisely they are getting? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hen. 1-linister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: !·!r.

Speaker, they know exactly what they are getting. I had a major press conference several weeks ago and outlined tc each municipality,and indeed wrote everv municipality in the Province outlining the provisions of the new 'lunicipal Grants Act, which is different from the ~unicipalities Act, the Municipal Grants Act,which outlines how much fundL~gs the municipalities will get from the Province. Each municipality was written by me personally outlining the amount of the allocation from the ~rovince for this year.

All we are savin~ is that in ?reparing a budget under the Municipalities Act, or under for this year the Local Gover~~ent Act, the act which is in existence until April lst., we are sayinq, "Prepare your budget ln accordance with the Local Government Act,but if you are now just preparing it or if we have not yet finally approved it,then the amount of provincial funding that you put in your budget should be in accordance with the Municpal Grants Act, which we have announced." MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. member for Terra Nova. MR.

LUSH: Then on to the larger issue, which the minister alluded to earlier and that is with respect to capital funding, particularly with reference to monies for water and sewer. How is this going to affect councils, again particularlv the smaller councils, that 818

~1arch l2, 1930 Tape No. 315 :lY! - 2 :.'fR. L~SH: do not yet have a property tax in place because the Municipalities ~ct does require that before getting these funds that a property tax be in place? So what is going to happen to those councils that have ongoing water and sewer systems, or that have the studies all done and are making applications for monies, capital funding for water and sewer, are these councils going to be discriminated agai:~st now? or •·1hat procedures will the minister use to qet over this requirement of the property tax when it is not yet in place? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) and Housing. ~'R.

DINT\l: The han. Minister of Munici_f'ecl !l.ffairs Mr. Speaker, far be it from this government to discriminate against any council. The act is very clear. It requires that when any municipality is serviced fifty per cent by water and/or sewer, then they shall be recruired to im!;Jose the property tax system. All that we are saying is that for this year municipalities which are applying - that they must know and they know very clearly, and it is the law of the land, it is approved bv this hon.

House- that property tax shall be required and they must know when they apply that once fifty per cent of the homes in that municipality are serviced they shall be required to bring in the property tax system. We are using a little bit of discretion this year,obviously,in phasing in this thing beca~se,first of all 1 assessments cannot be done in one year. It is not something that can happen as of April lst. because we cannot assess all the municipalities in this Province as of April lst. to bring property tax in place.

It is going to phased in over probably four or five years. we will be proceeding with all due haste in assessing municipalities and bringing the act into full being as quickly as possible. But in that interim period we will be using a little bit of discretion. MR. LUSH: A final supplementary, Mr. Qneaker. MP.. SPEA!CER: A final supplementary, the hen. member for Terra Nova. 819

£-'.arch 12, 19S·J Tape No. 316 D'i\ - J. ~.; R. T . LUSH : ':'~e question relatino to the unincorporated areas which have over the 9ast few years set up water committees, these committees have been ongoing, I am just wonderinq what the status no~ of these water committees is? Will they b~ eligible for funding in this particular fiscal year? Just how do ~hay fit into t~e general scheme of things, communities that are in dire need of water and are unincorporated, how do they fit into the scheme of things this year? Are these committees now aone by the waysiC!e? ~R. SPEaKE~ (Simms) Han. ~inister. ~!R. N.

WINDSOR: ~r. Speaker, obviously unincor- porated areas are not affected in any way by the Municipalities Act which applies to incorporated communities. :·lR. SPEAKER; The han. member for Burin - Placentia West. ~R. D. HOLLE'!'T: ~r. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Industrial Development (Mr. 5arry) if the Board of Directors of Marystown Shipyard has completed the internal examination of the operation of that yard as directed by the minister last year? MR. SPEAKER: Development. MR. L. BARRY: The han. Minister of Industrial Mr.

Speaker, we have had a preliminary survey of the operations of the yard and we ha7e received certain projections with~.respect to what the position is going to be as af the end of its financial year 1 which is really the end of this month. And as I have mentioned before, the acid test of performance is going to be the bottom line in the financial statements and we will be looking very closely at the financial statements of the yard.to see whether in fact the projections have been borne out. Indications are that 820

:-ta::-ch 12, 19 90 Ta pe No . 316 Di-i - L :!?. . - . 5A::t2.:'! t h e: e have b e~n i~? ~o ve~e ~cs ~i c h r~s p ~c~ ~o t ~ e n~mbe r of ~ a~ hc~ ~s ?er to~ o ~ sta9! i~stalled whi c h indicace s i=proved p rod u ctiv i ~y. ln:;icatio~ s ~ r e ~ h at the ne~ acco~nti n q sy ste~s a~d c~s~ es~i~ating syste~s ar~ h e lpi ~ q m ana~ ement to avoid sur ? r ises.

I still have s c:n.e conc e ~ r.,s 1 .some .;;er ious c .o:tc _er:-t5 as to whe ~~ er in tac: ~he sys~e m s will wo ~k ou ~ as c omp letely as ax?e cta ~ions ~ave it b et a ~ t be ~ r esent t i~e it ap?ea~s that t he y- ar~ is m ov:n~ to~~=ds a sat~s:ac~ory po s itio~. ! t is noc out of ~h e woocs by any ~ea ns yet in ~erms o~ h a ~ing to i~~rove pe rfor ~a~ ce,b u~ we wil l h ave a b~tt e = pic:u=~ whe n we g e~ t~e ! i~ancial state ~: ent s as o~ t ~e end o~ t~is tiscal yea ~. ~R . D. EO ~ L ETT: n sup ? le ment a ~ y, ~~ ~ ~ sp e ak er~ ~R.

SPEAKER (Simms): A s ~pplemen~ary, t he ~ on. member for Burin - Placentia West. =•1?.. ~ J. :iOL L E~T: Thank you , ~r. Speaker. I am ~ happy to h e a r c hat an~ I c a ~ assume c~a~ th~ ~i~is ~er is a~ lea s e partly pleased by che cha nges chat h ave b een ma d e and !~~lemen~ed . ha ppy to hear it als o . ~ am sure a lo~ of pecole will be And j ust to dispel! the curren~ ru ~our - Nhe re it scarted ! cc not kn o~ I ""~ou!.d like t.o ~ s ~ ~ h e ~ini scer: is there an y ~=u:h ~o the r um o ~ r t ha~ :he governm ent is eicher conte rnplat i nq or has decided to pl ac e c h e yard for sale? HR .

SPEAXER: Developme:tt . MR. L. BARRY: The h on . Kinisce r of I neustria Mr. Speake~, I believe in th~ last session of tbe House I referred to the fact thac t.hat was one alternative that obviously has to be considered by any government in terms of looking at the operations of any Crown corporation. We have had expressions of interest 821

arch 1:1, 1980 :'<:!'a -.:o. 31 6 iJW - 3 :·!? . L . 3A~R"l; f ~ om a ~u~ter - ~nd a nc~be~ , ~o; jus~ one - bu: a nu~be: o~ ince~es:e d g:oups. ;;e have made it clea~ :~at we ha ve no inte~~icnJ - this ~as ac c~e ~1~e. by the way, hhen i~Cic~~ ior.s ~ere chac the=~ ~aC ~ae~ se~io~s ~rohlems ~ith ~ he ~!or~e~ ia~ co~~:a~c - we ca~~ ~t c:!.aar we •,.;er:2 not i:tclin.ed :.o S>!!ll t:~e ya :-C at a f:.. !"e sale, h\.! c we are not w rit~nq o~i ~ he ?O ssi~ilicy o~ ~e are no~ !o:e - closi~a the possi~ility c[ looki~g at propos als.

I: ic we re done !t would be done a~ an ocen bas!s w~ ere ~ h ~:e woule be ?~hllc in~:ca~!o~s issue d ~~ ~ave a~y inte restaf pa r~i as c c~~ in anC look ac the ya=C a~d make us e pro~osal. :c~ !.t !..i t.~e"!:tz~:;rc u!l 1:I~. -:11 ·.o~e see ju st ·.·1here t!::e yare st:an..:s at: the end o! :: ~is fiscal year, t:o ive an y i::.C!c.a- ~ions as eo how ~s a~e lik~l y to ccv e o~ =~~s poi~t. 622

March 12, 1980 Tape No. 317 SD - l MR. L. BARRY: I made the point, I think, earlier in this House that should it appear that the yard was going to be a continuing financial albatross around the neck of ~~e Province 1 that any responsible government would have to look at the possibility of divestiture. At the present time it appears that that will not be the case. I do not want to minimize 1 r..owever, the fact that - and there is a danger of people assuming, "Oh, the problems at the yard are cured," ·you know, owrnight. And I know the hon. member would say that that is not the case.

I know the people in Marystown on the Burin Peninsula realize that you do not solve problems of a shipyard overnight. And there are still serious problems that have to be dealt with so I do not want to minimize those at all.But in terms of our approach to divestiture of the yard, if it were ever contemplated it would only be with respect to seeing the continued viable operation of the yard. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. L. BAR.'<Y: principle. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. L. BAF.RY: MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear That would be the foremost Order, please: I am finished. The time for Oral Questions has expired. If the hon.

Minister would like to continue by leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Lands and Forest. MR. L. BARRY: By leave. By leave. the hon. Minister of I will just finish JJr:i remarks. We would only contemplate proposals that would improve the operation of the yard. And it would only be if it were seen that it was not the best way to go to have a continued heavy financial involvement by government. So maybe as time··goes on and we see the financial st-.atements, we can have further discussion on this point. I do not want to give the impression that it is not a possibility but, 823

March 12, 1980 Tape No. 317 SD - 2 MR. L. BARRY: at t~e present time, there has been no gover~ .ent decision to do it. MR. SPE~R:(Simms) Questions has expired. Order, please! Time for Oral I would like to welcome to the galleries today on behalf of all hon. members, council representatives from the Town of Twillingate, in the district of TWillingate, who are in the gallery,and also a delegation from Colinet, North Harbour and Harricott from ~~e district of St . Mary's - The Capes. We trust your visits will be productive a~d informative. SOME !!ON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAJGR (Simms): The capes . !o!R. D.

HANCOCK: SOME HON • MEMBERS : MR. D. H.l' .NCOC K : Hear, hear . PRESENTING PETITIONS The hon. member for St. Mary's - Thank you, !'..r. Speaker. Hear, hear. I should not have to rise to present a petition of this maqnitude, Mr. Speaker, in this day and age but on behalf of the people in the following communities ,the 350 voters of Colinet, North Harbour and Harricott,I will do so. The prayer of the petition is a bit lengthy so if this House could bear with me for a few minutes - I think I have five minutes. "Areas of concern: "this is the prayer of the petition, Mr.

Speaker, "The areas we are talking about a:re located approximately fifty to sixty miles from st. John's, an entirely gravel road

section of St. Mary's Bay." I might add, Mr. Speaker, it is one of the oldest roads on the Islar. ... of Newfoundland. •Poor roads have been a major drawback and difficulty for the residents of this area for many years. Gravel roads , you will admit, are far fro!ll ideal in this day and age at the best of times ,'~owever, there are times during tlE:year when these roads are literally impassable, Considering the condition of the Falls Bridge." I 824

March 12 , 1980 Tape No. 317 SD - 3 MR. D. HA."lCOCK: might add, Mr. Speaker, that bridge was built in 1924. It was last inspected some five years ago and I predict with the ice that has gone underneath that bridge in the last four or five years that it is unsafe to go over that bridge today or any other day. "You must also keep in mind that the centralization of schools in the area was carried out on a promise to residents that the roads would be paved in the near future and made safe for busing. This was some thirteen to fourteen years ago - no pavement to date.

Every school board as well as government has given up in this area,although each year children experience lost school days due to poor road conditions. The kids' futures suffer, are discriminated against as a result of poor roads in this area. They can not take

part in any sports because they have to travel over a

section of dirt road and they have to go to such places as Placentia, Kelligrews and Whitbourne. Why should our future adult generation be as much deprived of these and other essentials as I and my colleagues here were in our youth? " 11 We were resettled to be given a chance to share in the same things that we are inspiring you and our government to do so!IM!!t.D.ing about. We do pay taxes like any other urban or rural peoples of this Province." '1 Health care in our area is deplorable due to road conditions and the hazardous 825

March 12, 1980 Tape 313 EC - 1 I'.R. D. HANCOCK: "tra..,·el to nearest hospitals, etc. It is of little help or comfort to the sick to realize that there are even times when travel will be impossible due to breakdown of snow re~val equipment or lack of obsolete equipment. Need we say more? "This area, we believe, has much to offer in the tourist

section of our economy, but very few travellers come to our area in campers, etc., over such gravel roads, which does little for business in our area which could thrive on such movements of people and equipc~ent. Yot.; must remember we are in the heart of the sallnon, moose and other wildlife areas attractive to sportsmen and tourists alike, but very few people take advantage of the ~~ings we have to offer because of the road conditions • '' "Another point to bear in mind is that the upgrading has been done in ~~e past few years. Slow as it was, most surely we did not let it go to waste because of inaction of our government to provide funds for the blacktop." They are talking about the

section of road that was upgraded l&St year where Class 'B' was put on the Mount Cumel to North Harbour - a

section of nine miles of road which was upgraded and still no call for pavement. The upgrading has deteriorated in ~~e last year and I am afraid that if it continues over this Summer that there will be very little crushed stone left on the road. "In closing, I would like to men~;ion that this is not the first time these conditions and problems have .been brought to the atten­ tion of the minister and government. Some three or four years ago, a similar delegation from Colinet met with Mr. carter &nd Mr. Morgan and outlined the same things we have .been told here today.

Things looked brighter for a short time with the promise of upgrading and paving in the near future. False promises again. Who pays?'' For the minister to stand up today and say that he is going to beautify the Trans-Canada from one end to the other with a S0/50 sharing with Ottawa, I assume. and the people in my district have to drive over this

section of road, and I might add, the bus that leaves North Harbour has to travel twenty miles to the school in Mount Carmel. Kids have to get up - it took a bus only as early as yesterday two a:1d 826

March 12, 1980 Tape 318 EC - 2 MR. D. HANCOCK: one-half hours to reach Mount Carmel. So, Sir, I am in support of this petition, and I think members on this side and the opposite side should be also. I would request that this petition be pl~ced upon the table of this House of Assembly and directed to the department to which it relates. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms] : Belle Isle. MR. E. ROBERTS: Thar.k you, Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear! The hon. the member for ~~e Strait of My friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has been kind enough to accede to the request which my friend from St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr.

Hancock) made ~~at I say a word or two in support of it, and I am delighted to. I thought the member for St. Hary' s - The Capes, who is the second most junior member of the House, spoke with eloquence and with effect when he presented the petition. The prayer of the petition is clear-cut and it does not need any words of embellishment from me, but I do want to say that I hope it commends itself to the minister, who apparently is not even sufficiently interested to pay attention. The road conditions up in that part of our Province are hard to credit in this day and age.

I know there are many areas of the Province where roads are less than perfection. My own district is no stranger to bad road conditions. But last Fall during a certain democratic exercise that was underway in the electoral district of St. Mary's - The Capes, I had the great pleasure of accompanying the gentleman who is now the member for st. Mary's - The Capes - he was not at that tilne, he was in the process of becoming the member - on a drive over this road in question.

And, Sir, over the years that I have been involved in public life,I have baen around the Province once in a while and I have see~ some bad roads,and I have had occasion once in a while to wonder whether my life insurance was paid up, but I do not think I have ever encountered roads quite as bad 827

March 12, 198 0 Tape 318 EC - 3 MR. E. t«>BI::R'l'S I as the roads on which we drove that day. lt was a S1lllday, as I recall it, a,nd if ever there was a reason for being in church, the reason was not simply the hon. gentleman's drivinc;, but the roads in the dis~ict. The road in question, Sir, is shockinc;1 it is deplorable even by the standards of roads in rural Newfoundland. I would hope the goverlllllellt wi.ll £ind the money to do that road this y-ear. I have no doubt it was promised.

I have no doubt when the Premier spoke in Mount C&rlnel a oay or two before the election when he told people that he controlled the money, that he said he would have that road upgraded and paved, and I sincerely hope it is this year. The road series the people of a wide area 1 it serves them in a number of vital and important functions and I would hope t.rult now the people have spoken by means of a petition through the agency of their member in the House that the minister and his colleagues will heed that prayer and we will see tile work done this year. You know, Mr.

Speaker, when we l.ook at some of the road projects that are done, 828

March 12, 1980, Tape 319, Page l -- apb MR. ROBEP.TS: worthy in themselves, some of the road budgets which are done and compare them with some which are not done, it makes one question very seriously the priorities of the men and the women who together constitute the government of this Province. Well, here is a clear-cut choice, Sir, where they can do the right thing, anc theprojectwhich should be given priority, the project which has just been outlined in the House by the gentleman from St. Marys - The Capes (Mr.Hancock).

So I support the peition and I hope it commends itself to the Premier and his colleague,and I hope and trust we will see the results of that, we will see the results in the machines, the construction machinery being moved into the area this Summer to do the necessary work. SOME HON . MEf.ffiERS : Hear, hear! ORDERS OF T~~ DAY MR. SPEAKER(Simrns): Private Members' Day, Motion No. 5. The hon. the member for St. John's Centre. DR. MCNICHOLAS: Mr. Speaker, at the outset I would like to say that I am in favour of the resolution - SGr-lE HON. ME.HBERS : Hear, hear! DR.

MCNICHOLAS: - the resolution that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador make available ambulance services for patients in Labrador comparable to the services provided on the Island portion of the Province. Mr. Speaker, I am for that motion one hundred per cent. Actually, that is a motherhood issue. I think everybody is in favour of it. If they are not they should be. 829

March 12, 1980, Tape 314, Page 2 -- apb DR. MCNICHOLAS: NO\'i 1 on t':le last day a number of hon. members spoke about the desirability of having specialists in Labrador rather than flying people out of there to the Island, and I am >vith that one hundred per cent too. Unfortunately, I do not think we are going to. get that for some time. Not only is there a shortage of specialists in Labrador, there is a shortage on the Island of Newfoundland, there is also a shortage here in St. John's, althouq~ some people might not believe that. I will give you two examples: Take the specialty of obstetrics and gynaecology.

There was one new chap who carne to St. Clare's a few years ago, and in his place, one of the gynaecologist left and went to Saudi Arabia. Now, before that we did not have one new specialist in that field for fourteen years. Take my own specialty of ophthalmology, and I am not referring to optometrists, I am referring to a medical doctor with an M.D. who goes off and does at leastafouryear's specialists course in eye surgery and eye medicine and gets his fellowship at the College of Surgeons, then he is classified as a specialist.

Now, there has not been one new person in that field, in private practice, for about fourteen or fifteen years. Since I carne to practice here, in that field, one of the men died and one has gone to the mainland. I read just around Christrnastirne a statement by the Administrator of the Health Sciences Complex, a Complex that cost $55 million, who said we would have to send patients from there to Toronto for kidney transplants because we could not find the medical or nursing personnel to staff a unit which 630

: ~1arcb 12, 1980 , Tape 319, Page 3 -- apb DR. HCNICHOL.~S : \vas t~ere befo re in the old General Hospital. 1 do not war.t to d1vell on this, l>!r. Speaker, and I will not, but I t.~ink 1ve should note that in our medical school here, less than 50 per cent of the Newfoundlanders who have qualified in medicine are practicing in Nelvfoundland, they have gone else'A•bere . i\nd of the 3 35 medical graduates lvho have finishe6 there since th.e medical school opened, 335, only ninety - one of them are now practicing in New-foundland . !·!r . Speaker, this ambulance service is very necessary ,but lvhere is the money?

Tee hen . the Premier stated some days ago that we have the highest sales tax in Canada, we have the highest income tax in Canada, we pay the highest interest on our loans and bonds . 83 1

March 12, 1980 Tape :.Jo. 320 '!M - 1 D::l.. MCNICHOLAS: There are only tw·o "~"..rays l.oJe can get t:-tat money; new revenue,or we will reb Peter ~o pay Paul. Where do we qet the new revenue? I make no apology, Mr. Speaker, to say the way we can get that for arobulance and medical services and other services is by owning and controlling our offshore oil. I make no apology at all about saying that. SOME HON. ~IE!-!EERS: Hear, hear! DR. MCNICHOLAS: I am very glad to have heard the ho~. m~~er from Grand Bank (Mr.

Thoms) yesterday agreeing with that philosophy completely, agreeinq that we do o•m and control the off­ shore oil. ~~d ~ was very pleased to hear also the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), who is gradually coming around to the same way of thinking, if he has not completely come around. ~1R~ ~IEA.RY: Are you sure? DR. MCNICHOLAS: And I hope all the other han. members on that side of the House will very rapidly come around to that way of thinkinq also. Now, Mr. Speaker, in the interim we have to rob Peter to pay Paul 1 and I want to see this ~~ulance ser\•ice and I want to see a better medical 'service.

How are we going to do it? I have been told that a mile of highway, to upgrade and pave it 1costs Sl million. ~aybe we should cut down a bit on that and devote it to our medical services. Maybe we should fine comb the estimates and see if we can come up with that money no•• or in the immediate future. An obvious one, Mr. Speaker - and I do not want to be misunderstood in this; I think and I believe that particularly out of town members in this hon.

House are poorly paid for their services but let us get our priorities straight.- if we are going to have an ambulance service for Labrador or an increase in our salary,I would say let us postpone an increase until the oil starts to flow. I support the resolution, Mr. Speaker. I do not want the remarks 832

:•!arc h 12, 1 '?80 Tape !-Jo. 320 N~! - 2 OR. !<!CNZCHOL".S: ! made to ::e cake.n as a ::e£le:-tion c~ the De?art~ent of Healt~, or th~ officials there, or the mi~ist e~ 4 I ~~L~~ ~hey are doing a !irst class j o~ with ~he ~u~ds ~hac t~ey have ~Jail~e ~vr ~hem . But ! ~~ulC say this, we do not ~~ve a first c la ss medical service i:\ Ne~;foundland, • . .;e ha•Je a second :-a::e one;and as lo:\g as I sit in this ~o~se my ambition a:ld aL~ will be ~o seek ane do everything i:\ my po~~r to ?rcvide a first class one . SO:-!E RON. ~l !::}13E?.S : ~~ . SPE~~R (3u;:t) : ~!P.. :. R();]E: Eear, hear!

The hon. member for TrL~ty-say de Verde . ~!.r . Speaker, first o f a ll I ,.._-ot:ld l.ike: to co:mnend the merrher for Torn.,at :1ou."tains (:·lr . 1-iarren) for im:roducinq this particular pr ivate merr.ber's rescluticn into che !-:ousa, ane ! ·~'Ould like ::o mention also that his absence :::xiay from the Asse~r.bly is because of a death in his =amily and obviously ttis ~akes ~recedence over the situation as it exists here today .

Buc, Sir, he is to be conqraculaced fer t.'1e very alo~,;nt and passionate way in ~.thich he cid !)resent the. case fer Labrador anc he also mentio l' 0~ in the introduction of his private member's resolution that if he had his cime ~~ck he ~~uld have rephrased the actual resolution to include other remote a:l.d rural areas of Newfoundland anc Labrador as well. Sir, I was going to congra::ulate the member :or St.

Joim ' s Centre (!:lr . :~c..'<icholas ) but ! wHl get back to the member a little lacer on because he said somet~ing to.wards t?1e end which really descroyed the basis upon which I was going to congraculate him fo r his speech. 5ut, Sir, the member for LaPoile C.!-lr. Neary) 1 the member for Na skaupi (Mr . Goudie) , the me..':lber for 5onavista Nort..~ (!-lr. Stirling), tfl.e membo...r for gxploits (Dr. Twomey) , the member for aaie '7er te- \•hite Ba;; (Hr . Rideout) have spoken in support of this ~solution and for all intents and purposes 633

~!arch 12, 1980 Tape No. 321 EL-l MR. F. ROWE: the ~!inister of Finance (Dr. Collins) and the member for St. John's Centre (Dr. ~cNicholas) really did not give any great indication that they were speaking in support of this resolution, and, in fact, I was extremely disappointed in their reaction to this particular resolution, because I would have expected that the two gentlemen, being medical doctors themselves, would have had a very strong feeling and would have gone all out in support of this particular Private Member's Resolution.

Instead, Sir, they did see fit to indicate support, but raise the question of where is the money coming from. DR. COLLINS: We are very practical people. MR. F. ROWE: Very practical people~ Well, Sir, I will have something to say about very practical people - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. F. ROWE: - when it comes to the health of people in this particular Province.

But, Sir, the one thing that really bothered me was this, that both hon. gentlemen used the same phrase, 'where is the money coming from,' and 'we have to wait for the oil flow~ 1 Now, Sir, this government and this administration appears to be completely preoccupied with oil and gas off our shores. ~nd we have all said, on this side, that we hope, and we indeed hope that oil and gas do flow out of these wells that are presently being explored. But, Sir, how can we place a dollar sign on the life and health of the people in the remote areas of this Province, especially in the

section of our Province called Labrador? There is no way in this world, Sir, that we should place a dollar sign on the life and health of these particular people. I can only mention, Mr. Speaker, this, is that out of a one billion dollar bud­ get, approximately, rounding off the figures, surely heavens we can 834

~arch 12, 1980 Tape No. 321 EL - 2 MR. F. RO\iE: find anotner $250,000, whic:h is the estir. .ated cost I understand of providing this necess­ ary ambulance service to the Northern region of our Province, name­ ly Labrador and I would suspect the Northern Peninsula itself. Sir, I would have really exFected two ~edical doctors occupying seats in ttis hen.

House to have ta­ ken a rrcre humane view with resFect to the health and welfare and the medical needs of the people in Labrador and not look at dollar signs,~,.. ,_· saying that they are very practical r.~en: We can uncover, Sir, h'mdreds of thousands of dollars• and I do not want to get into this- hur.dreds of thousands of dollars have been misspent and SFent um1isely by this adr.tir.istration over the past number of years. I will not cet into the details of it, I do not want to lower the quality of the debate in that particular respect. Now, Sir, what are we talking about exactly here?

The meober for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) has mentioned the lack of specialized medical expertise in Labrador, and the hen. member for St. John's Centre (Dr. McNicholas) did mention that this problem does in fact exist throuqhout the whole of the Province. That point is very well taken and I was quite ~azed, actually >~ith the statistics that he presented before the House with respect to the number of medical students coming out of our medical school who are actually staying in this Province. That is a horrifying story and it is quite a surprising story.

I would have expected the percentage to be quite a bit larger, the retention of our medical stu- dents and our graduates from the medical school here in this Pro- vince, I would have expected it to be up somewhere in the 90 per cent area. Instead of that we have, I car~ot remember the exact fig­ ure, lass the 50 per cent being retained in our Province and,to com­ pound the problem, we have the situation where we have a lack of spec­ ialists in the Province 1 period. P~d that compounds ~~e preble~ even 835

~!a:-c!: 12, ! 9'30 TilpC ~o . 321 ~ - 3 . -.i\ . F. =<c·,:: • ~~ r e witr. r es~eq' ~o Lab r ?cor . But, t~.·hat is t :-.e :- esol v ~ P: t:Us pa::=t.- ic:.>l a::: trot1onf ' ': h;,_r. t he qov .. -rr._.,-.ent- o ! ~l e.:~o · .>....,dla~d ar:c La},J:a c o r r.a';;e evail.S.::le. arr.=ular:ce se~vic e for pac1.ents in r.a:!"" ::~? r co:n - ;>a ral:l~ to the services p r~viC.

" C: c r. the Islar!rl ;:-crti o :: of tr.e P ro­ vi::ce~ · :.Jotv, Sirt t he rrerr.ber for To rn sa~ r-~ountai~s (G . t·iarrer. ) 1 speak­ ing on seh al.:: re c:.l:y o:: all oi i.anraC:cr anc the ether re:;-,ote ar.,as o f this Provi:\ce, is aski:-.~ for nothing r-ore, rtOthir.-; less, just. cOr:" f'a~ab l..a ambulance service .:._n ~ ha~ portio~ of ou r P rov ~n ce . ¥- r.ci, Sir , if ever ~he r e ~as = neeC 836 • .! ,, ~

~arch l2 ,l9oO Tape No . 322 Ali-l to1R . F . i\OWE : for an ambulanc~ 3.:rv1.ce - ~f we .do no~ hav~ enou -gh .nurses1 if we do not: have enough doctors ane i! we do not ~ave enough specialL>es in that: area of our Pr ovince -c hat is reason enouqh alone for providi~g a bet~e= ambula ~ce service :or that region oi the Province .

So ! cannot: see ho~ we can debate this bill in this House anc not have unan ·in:ous support of it be f o~e the a£ternoo:"' is out 1 and I 'Aould expecc that this oill •..;ill get the unanimous sup9orc of every membe r o f che House a~~ I sincezely hope chat both hon. members op.posite w!lom : ha•1e be~n a little tiny bit: cricical o£ be.cause of t heir r cnarks in their speech 1 will indeed see fit to stand up in support cf this till because I can assure hon . members that: if you are look i~ g c hrough a billion dollar budget you car. surely scrape up a quarter of a million dollars in terms of th e health and s.afety of peo?le 1n t.he remote areas of our Provi:!ce .

You ·cannot., I repea~, plac~ a dollar sign on che heal c h and we lfare and medical needs of people in Newfound land a nd especially in the remote parts o ~ this particular Province. Sir , I myself reslly do have a special interest in Labrador itself . As a ma t~e r of fact, if I can reminisce for just a moment. it was my first: political experience, was Labrador. In 1 951 when my father decided to run in politics he ran in the dJ.stzict of Lab rad or , period , one whole district:, al ~ of Labrador . There was no Churchill Ea~ls, there was no Wabush or Labrador City, no Twin Falls.

The innerm~st occupied area at that point was t~e Norch ~est River, Sa ppy Valley, Goose Ba y a rea , a nd I had the tremend o us experienc e at the age of thi r teen oi being the cook on the chartered boat -:;ha-c my facher t o ured that particular district in during that Summer . We v-isiced every single c ommunicy ::rom - I guess -:;:'\e most Southerly community 837

.:.larch 12,1980 Tape No. 322 ?.i:i - 2 MR . F . RONE: is ~'Anse -a u-clair, to Eebroo at ~hat time and i:1wards up Lake >i~l· .. ·i 2l i! i:'l' t:O the inner parts of Labrador . We ~Ls~te6 every s~ng~e community,scme of which do n ot exist at this present time.

Sut t h at was a creroendous experience for ~e, Sir, because I had the privilege of me~ting hu~C ~eds of Labradorians at that time and ~ithout dow~grading , without belittling the people of chat particular a r ea of the P r ovine~ I would like to relate a story that indicates in a certain wa y the alienation that the peo~le of Labrador even felt at that time, the is~la:ion that t h ey ielt at that time, th~ misunderstandings r:hat the y h ac a<. that time . ~y father happened to be a doctor of pedagogy, a doctor of education, and we had - the campaign ~anager at the time was Captain Sid Hill, the famous sealing captain, a~d he would introduce, you kcc~.

Doctor ao we as che Liberal candidate in that particular election . I can remember the quite - nothing at all humourous about it - the quite sad st"ory of meeting a lady, a lady actllal coming down to :ne and asking for Doctor Rowe because she figured or she thought that he would be able to solve her medical problems at that particular time . Buc, Sir, things have im?roved immensely on the Coast of Labrador and in the interior of Labrador quite a bit since that time .

Sut we still have that sense of alienation , that sense of not really belonging to the Province or the Island portion of t he Province, the feeling by the people up there that tax dollars are being taken out and they are not seeing their returns for it . I know that is an argumentative statement but the r e is still that feeling, t hat impres "s ion that somehow or anot~:4 ~ud in some ~e~tors of their social life the people of Labrador are being disc r"iminated against and this is the very re"ason •11hy we have this separatist feeling coming to the surface every now and 638

~larch 12,1980 TaEJe No. 322 AH-3 MR.".RGW:S: then, why we have p~ople in Labrador sometimes looking to Quebec every now and then, someti~es looking 839

March 12, 1980 Tape 323 EC - 1 MR. F. ro;..=:: to havi~g tneir own iclen~ity separa~e from the Province of ~ewfoundland and Lab~ado~, it is things like ~~is, ~his obvious disparity, this discrepancy in terms of medical service being provided to the people of Labrador. And I thought that everybody who has spoken so far, particularly the memeer who represents the Torngat Mountains (Mr. G.

Warren), has made a very good cas~ for increased expenditures for purposes of the provision of proper ambulance services to equalize, to bring some •quity between Lab~ador and the Island portion of our Province when it comes to the provision of ambulance service or certain medical services in this partic·.1lar case; and we are not, of course, excluding other remote areas of the Island portion of our Province which have very similar problems indeed.

Sir, I should not let the time pass without really paying tribute to the In~ernational Grenfell Association and the doctors and the nurses and the personnel of the Internatior.al Grenfell Association who have done tremendou~ work over the years on ~~e Great Northern Peninsula and in Labrador. They have been subjected quite often to very, very harsh criticism by people on the Island an~ people in Labrador. Needless to say, every institution, whether it is the Grace Hospital, the Health Sciences Complex, St.

Clare's Hospital or any hospital, cannot be perfect, 3nd the Internationa~ Grenfell Association has not been perfect, but they have provided a tremendous medical service to the people who reside in the Northern portion of the Island portion of our Province and also to the Labrador people themselves.

So I repeat once agai~ that I hope that the impression that was left by two hon. members opposite, and to my deep disappointment coming from two doctors sitting opposite, that the only indication that I have had from the other side of a lack of complete and undiluted support for this particular resolution has come from two members opposite who are themselves in the medical profession.

I find that terribly disappoL~ting and terribly surprising, and I hcpe it will he remedied at the end of the day when these two hen. members will get an opportunity to stand illld be counted 1 as we have heard so often expressed in tr.is House since the 840

March lZ, 1980 ~ape 3Z3 EC - 2 MR. F. ROWE: recent Throne S!?eec.'!, that these two hon. members will stand and be counted and will, indeed, support this particular resolution vhen it co~e3 to the vote. DR. J. COU.DIS: (!naudible) a question. MR. F. ROWE: I do not ~~ow what the hon. the Minister of ?inance (Dr. J. Collins) is - DR. J. COLLr.IS : MR. F. ROWE: question. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Would the hon. member permit a question? Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I will permit a By leave, the hon. the Minister of Perhaps I could put a question to h~~, because ! think he may well have a lot of insight into this matter that perhaps other members would not have, and I really would just like his opinion on it. We are talking here to some extent about the transfer of patients from peripheral areas to, shall we say, core facilities -not totally~ I me~~, you ~~ow.in some instances th~re are no facilities so it is a case of gettin ·; patients into some facilities, not necessarily core facilities. But to some extent ve are talking in that vein.

I would like to get the hen. memcer's opinion on what he would think about where there are no core facilities in the Province for a particulAr matter and you have to have transfer elsewhere for ~~ose core facilities - you know, how would he react to expanding if we did this to cover that side of things? Because I ~~nk that is a legitimate point too. And I do not say ~'>jat to try to be argumentative with the hon. meml:-er, I think that it is all part of the same picture in a way. I think the hon. member would understand that. MR. F.

ROWE: I think the hon. the Minister of Finance realizes why I do understand that particular problem, because I have a personal problem in my awn f~ly in this particular case. That does not distract whatsoever from the argument 841

March 12, 1?80 ':"ape ;-To. 324 '1M - 1 .!-!P.. F. ROI·<E : argument~ the fact that, okay~ :-'.r. Speaker, ! realize in the ro.edical profession that there is always this one major problem, i~ you are going to have a najor core facility in some area of the ~rovince, or even in the ~rovince itself, this automatically takes away from the provision of peripheral services effort throughout the ~rovince, whether it be on the Great ~orthern Peninsula, or in Labrador.

I realize that medical reality, that in order to get that basic core facilit? - I have often heard criticism of the IGA because of the so-called emoire building in St. l'.nthony, h'~t you have got to have that great institution there to perfo~ the kind of medical services that are required so that you would not have to do the type of thing that the ~inister of Finance indicated, and that is ship the~ out of the Province altogether.

But in answer to the hon. minister's question, the answer is taken care of by ~edicare because in my particular instance, where surgery had to be done on the h·eart of ;ny son, it could not be done in Newfoundland, as a matter of fact the problem could not even be diagnosed in Newfoundland, as the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) well knows. The particular problem could not even be diagnosed. It took twelve days in Sick Children's Hospital to diagnose the problem.

But in my particular case, and in the case of every other individual in Newfoundland and Labrador, transportation from the Province to another core unit or area somewhere in ~orth America, England or Canada or the Statel;' is taken care of ::,y Hedicare because somewhere in the act or the regulations something that cannot be done in Newfoundland or Labrador, any surgery or treatment t~at cannot be carried out in this particular Province 1is paid for by Medicare because of the referral by the doctors on the scene. So that is not the problem that we are confronted with here. In

summary, Mr. Speaker, it is very, very simple. We are asking the administration opposite to look at their - which it should be this year; I think it was last year in round figures a $l billion budget - look for approximately 842

:1arch 12, l93 0 Tape NO. 324 'l!-'. - 2 ~m.. ~. ~o~·z : .,~_e c;-..:a::-:..er of a million C:~ol : a.rs -:o p.r~v-=.c (; S250, 000 , a quarter o!" a mill!_:>n Collazs, cut: o-f Sl bi!lior. su.re'l;· could be scraped our. of t!'lat !:lt..d<;et, co give ti:e people of La::--racor ar. a:ni:ulance service and a :redical service that is ~ivalenc to . equ.al to, the meCical se~;ices that are ~roviCed on ~he Island par~ oi eu~ ~rovir.ce, or L, ce~ain pa:~s of the !slanC pa~ of ou r 2rovince .

So I i:ope I have answerec t~e ~!iniste: of :ina~ce's c;ues-=-ion aO~.acely b1,;.t i~ really dogs r.ot dist!:a:-t, nor re.ally doe-s it have: ar.ything to do with the particular r~solve callec for :~ this particular :esolut ion. ~~ . Speaker, ! tha~~ hon . mem-~rs for listening to ~hat ! hac to say on this parcicular motion and I do hopg:, and ! since:-el~· he?-, tha~ e-very· m~rr.be::- of ~his ~ouse ~,;ill seg fit to stand U? and vote for or support this pa:cticula:::- resolut.io:~ and ! hope t!lat. my few comments cf mild critical na~ure will noc be taken in such a <n>ay that the tv1o hen .

Members t.o v:hom ;: referred ~~ll not see :it to stand up and support this ?articular resolution . Tha~~ you very much . SO~!.E HON. :.r.:"-!BERS : Hear, hear! NR. SP::AKER (3airc} : The non. "!ir.ist:er of Heal~~ - HR. :!OUSE: ~1r . Spe-aker , I want: to ma~e a few c~rnments on this resol~cion anc I want to thank hon. members for '=hei.r corr.ments. First of all ~ might say I '"'a~t to tr.ank the member for Tornqat Mountains for bri:~c:ing this resolution and I C.o "ant to say that ! had hope~ that he "'~uld be here toqay but I do ~~ow why he is a"oay and ! extend my sympathy also .

J: do have som'.'! knowledae o~ the situation because I die visit the Jan eway when the young boy was chere. A member of my family "oas a close friend there. So ! pass my personal cond.oleno::es to him today . The ot.her reason why I want to 843 -~-· ·~ .... "':' .. ~ ... ~~.~~·h·· :,JJ" ·~~- ···:t."""· ' .... .,,. ··:-.... ···-::- . ··;· ... ·----~-.. ~~.- .... ""~··:;-,· :·: ...............

March 12, 1980, Tape 325, Page 1 -- apb MR. HOcSE: thank the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) is because he brought to us a good compassionate Tory ?Olic~ one that I thought that he knew what we were talking about and doing some work on. I will say this at the outset, as my colleague behind me said, certainly ! am going to support this resolution. The couple of points I want to make are; I was away last week when the resolution was presented, and I was away for a very particular reason.

I have been so busy since I have been back I have not had a chance to read all of the comments that were made about the resolution last week. But I was reading the paper, I gues~ on last Thursday,and I got the impression that the people on this side were not for the resolution. I did read up on what they had to say and I could not figure out how anybody could get the impression that what the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) said was cigainst the resolution. I thank him for filling in for me, as the second speaker after the mover.

As the Minister of Health, I guess I am supposed to make a r.l':sponse to this,and the Minister of Finance, of course, is the acting minister when I am away and I thank him for his comments. I am not going to cover all the details that he covered because he did mention a lot of things that we are doing in the Labrador area. Now, I w;~.1t to say a fe...,· things about my association with Labrador. Unfortunately, I have not travelled extensively. I have been in Cabinet five years and I have been in Labrador four or five times.

Perhaps as a minister I have most frequently visited Nain and Makkkovik, Hopedale and Davis Inlet. I have been there three times in 844

~ia =c h 12, 1980 , Tape 325 , Page 2 -- apb HH . HOUSE : ~JR . GOUDIE- : ~i.R • HOU SE : a five yea r pe riod . Hear , hear : I have been '.:o Ive ste r!'! Labrador and, of course, to Goose Bay - Happy Valley. Unfortunately, I have not been to any place south of Cartwright. I was trying to get there while I was Minister of Education, but things worked against my getting there. But I might say that I have travelled enough there to get an appreciation of the problems and to perhaps gather some of the feelings about what people think about Labrador.

Yesterday I picked up a document in the back of the room there, I believe it was the report of the Snowden Commission, which was a commission that was set up to look at the problems in Labrador, and to look at the basic needs and so on. That document,there in the back of the · Assembly, points out what has been done to date on the resolutions. There were five or six resolutions there which pertained to health.

I am happy to say that practically - I believe all of them, all but the one related to transportation, or ambulance services, are in the process of being carried out or have been completed, and I think that is very good. When we think of the ambulance, and I will say something further on this, I will elucidate when I get down into the meat of what I have to say, that we cannot forget that there is a fair measure of ambulance service there now. Now, I just want to talk about the last couple of times I have been in Labrador, when I looked at the facilities we have there.

As I have said, some of the results of the Snowden Commission pointed out what things were needed and, of 845

~arch L2, 1980 , Tape 325 , Page 3 ap!) MR . cOUSE : course, as I looked at it, we are getting t!'lese clinics , sta'Cio~s along the coast in practically every ~mall corrm~~it y in ~~e Labrado r area, and ~hese are o~ly good, obv~ousl y , to b::ing '~hat I call the prima ry services . r.: you go to places like ~ ain, for ~nstances, I ~otill use ~:..hat as an example, and other place s ''here we are bcilcir:g new clinics, you .,.,•ill find o\lt that we are putting facil ities ther~ to give pri~a ry , what I call, life ­ sa,·ing ser vices . ~nd, o.: course, there is transportation to get to ot~er centres in the Provi nc e, particularly from the coast o: Labrador .

That is being done , but r,;e recognize that i:; is not 846

~·t a:- c h 12 , l 9 8 ::. Taoe :<o. 326 o:.; - :!. :·1R. H.HOVSE; ade~uate ana I ~ec~qnize wha~ my good friend behind m~ saij hers, that we Go not have enough spe~ialist. service in the ?rovince, not talk of on t~e Island ?art of the Province or here in St. John's, not talk of t~e rest.

And that is something that is qoing to be di£!icult to overcome and I would say with a popula~ic~ ~~ 40.600 people in Labrador or thereabout it is going tc be cl~fficult to get certai~ kinds of s~ecialists even if chey were available because, fer instance, in this Province, you take neurosurqery - I will cse chat as one particular incident - we have two neurosurgeons. They think and we think we neec three and we think that the kind of disci­ pline that neurosurgery is that they should be operating together and perhaos there should be only one centre - ~ndeed there is only one centre.

And I had a talk with a fellow during a little episode in Labrador who said that a relative of his had a brain hemorrhage or something while he was in - a brain hemorrhage, I think it was, the exact words he used - while he was in Halifax; had he not been there it was not likely he would have lived. I submit to you, you would not be able to have a brain surgeon, for instance, in Labrador. I do not think he would be a brain surgeon very long because there would not be enough work there to keep him current, I would submit.

And with a sparse population like we have, not only on the Labrador portion but here on the Island portion, it is very difficult all these kinds of services. Now there are twenty-four or twenty-five doctors in Labrador, 200 nurses, about thirty­ five of these are cur Department of P.ealth nurses who are working under, of course, the IGA, and there are a lot of 847

:·Ia=ch ' " ..L...:., 1980 l'r!R. ~'!. EOUSL: ~a?e ~To . 3 26 ~~·: - .. , s ~ ecialists ~o~~g in.

I ;·:~s in Labrador City som2 ti~e ago and I ~~as vary pl~asantl7 sur p rised ~o cro to the hos~ital and see a ~eam of our professionals, I suppose, p~ysio~~erapists a~d occupational ~herapists, t~ere workinq wit~ the doctors and these went fro~ the!."e into !·!a~?:! 1lalley - Goose 3ay and, of course, providi~q t~at kind of s~ecial service. :·ro~·: w~at I a~ leading to is that I think we are improving continuously but we know we ~~nnot and we are net givina an adecuate s~rvice,but we are making irn?rovements all t~e time. r:ow, ~!r.

Speaker~ we hear a lot. about the idea of ::edica.re and there are t\·,~o a:: three term5 in Me~icare that we talk about. ~~nd one of the terms is •accessibility', 'every oersor:. i:1 Canada si:J.ould have reaso:1able access to roedicaJ.. ~~=vices~ and of course, we are asking Judge Emmet Eall to· define that more fully for us oecause if t~ere are all kinds of medical serv:i.ce~ in Hontreal cr here 1 if I am outside of here 1t is net so accessible, the Medicare that I require is not so accessi~le as it would be if I were here.

And the same thing ap?lies to Nain or Jackson's Arm in my district or in any ·other community in remote Newfoundland. What we think we have to do and what we think we should be doing is trying to at least make it as accessible as possible and consequently that we sho~ld be looking at some kind of an a~bulance pro~ramrne like we have,and I say on the Island portion of the Province or in Newfoundland and Labrador we have one of the better ambulance services. Right now, for instance, the":lmember for Trinity- Bay de Verde, Olr. F. Rowe) I think, mentioned putting dollar signs on people's lives. The fact is - 848

March ;.2 , 1980 Tape ~o . 3:!6 D'.-1 - 3 ~. :-. ?.:'r::: (Inaudible) put ~in g a prLce :aq on them . MR. W. MOC:SE : T!\e fact is •,o~nere people are r.oe able to pay thei r way, of course, right now we do have people qetti ~ g free ambulance service. ~;ere is no ~u estion abou t that and they are get: .ir:g t.;e sal!le service as we are gettin9 here 0!1 the Islam!. l\N !!ON . !>!EMBER: MR . W. HOUSE: >.N RON. MEMBER: '·-·---· .. ·--·--- · -·-. _ ..... That :.s not t:-ue. Yes, the y are. No, tbey are not. 849

March 12, 1980 Tape 32i EC - l MR. W. HOUSE: Yes, they are. The government plane will go in and if they are indigent people, 1::1e Welfare will pay for their ambulance service if they have to come cut. MR. s. NEARY: 3~:t they are indigent people. How about the working cl~s people? MR. W. HOUSE : If they are working class people right now and the plane goes in for t..'l.em, they do r1ot have to pay either, but if they come out on E.P.A., they do. MR. s. NEARY: How often does the government plane (inaudible) MR. W. HOUSE: MR. S. NEARY: Well, she has gone in in emergencies.

There are only a few places she can ~et in now. Do not be talking such foolish nonsense. l".R. W. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, she can get into two places and,besides that, on the Labrador Coast there are planes on charter for that very purpose, to bring them in to Happy Valley - Goose Bay or in to St. Anthony. And that is a service, of course, that is not in any other part, but we recognize that is a very necessary service and one that we are happy to be part of. Mr.

Speaker, I cannot let this go without, of course, making some reference to the International Grenfell Association and the service they have given there, and, of course, the other hospital in the western part, the Jackman Hospital, and the service that board is giving. One of the recommendations of the Snowdon Commission was to have more local input into the administration of the health system in Northern Newfoundland and Labrador, and that is, of course, more or less setting up, perhaps, a local board.

We have been in negotiations wi~h the International Grenfell Association and the people in Northern Newfoundland and Labrador with respect to tha~ parti.cul.ar proposition. We made an announcement a month ago that we are in t..'l.e process of setting up a board that will have representation from all the areas served by the International Grenfell Association, and there is a task force set up looking at the 650

March 12, 1980 Tape 327 EC - 2 ~. W. HOUSE: holC.ings of tr.e I.G.A. and we are in discussion about what will be done wi~~ ~~at. So that particular resolution, then, of the Snowdon Commission will be completed. The board is just about in place, and I am sure that will give ~~e local people more input and more a feeling of being part of their own government. Now, Mr. Speaker, as : said, I think it is reasonable. I ~~ink the m~ber for Torngat Mountains (Mr. G. Warre~) was aware of the fact that some ~e ago when I was in Labrador, when we were there as a Cabinet- AN HON. MEMBER: Yes. M..'<. W.

HOUSE: - t~ere was a brief presented and I responded to the brief there, statin~ that we are looking at so1~ options to try to bring more equality of ambulance services to the Province, particul.arly as it pertains to Labrador. I talked to, I believe, the members for all the districts in Labrador and told them the same thing. So I was kind of surprised to see the resolution come up.

But I am very happy to see the resolution on the Order Paper because it gives us a chance to" point out some of the things that we are doing in Labrador and gives us a c~ance to say that we are looking at this particular kind of programme, some kind of programme to be able to make ambulance services more accessible. I have had cases where people have told me1 and one particular case w~re a fellow told me that he had to have, I believe, something like five seats on Air Canada from Wabush out and he had some escort service, and it cost him, I believe, in the final analysis, something like $2,200.

I think that is the most exorbitant one. Some of that was offset, of course, by some kind of insurance, but the fact remains it was too costly. we recognize this. And I had a number of cases where they talked about the $1,000 costs and so on. So , Mr. Speaker , we are very happy to associate ourselves with this resoluticn because we want to see that kind of thing immediately. 8 5 .,

March 12, 1980 Tape 327 EC - 3 l'B. S. NEARY: Are you going to vo~e fc~ the resolution? HR. W. HOUSE: Am I going to •rote for the resolution? Ob, yes, I arn going to vote for the resolution. I just want to make one little co~ent with respect to ~~e medical school before I - 852

March 12, 1980 Tape so. 328 SD - l MR. W. HOUSE : there is some reference that only ninety people are practising ,as my good friend behind me spoke about that - that is true but the last two classes have not got the ability to - they can not practice yet because they are interning so there are ninety-five of the graduates who are actually working in the Province under certificate and there are fifty-five others who are interning. So we can not say that t.'lese fifty-five are not still in the Province; some of them may not return to the Province but certainly a percentage of these will be back.

The other thing, this is some information - 1IN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. W. HOUSE: I do not know I just got to pass it along here that the memcer for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) spoke about MCP picking us costs of out of province, I guess. 1IN HON • MEMBER: MR. W. SOUSE: That is only in the - 1IN RON. MEMBER: MR. W. HOUSE: ( Ina..:dible) Yes, but not in transportation. (Inaudible} Yes, not il'l transportation . That is only in the actual medical costs and the hospital insurance. So, Hr.

Speaker, I am not going to say much more about this because I think all I wanted to do was reiterate that we have talked about this, we are looking at prograJIIIIes, we know that there ere some inequitable situations, and I do not know what time anything could hapr~ but certainly we favour this. It is a good, u I said, compassionate resolution, one that I want to associate • .-., myself with and I think we all associate ourselves with it. so I will just say that I am going to support the resolution. Thank you very much. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. 853

March 12, 1980 Tape So. 328 so - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : HR. E. HISCOCX: The h~n. member for Eagle F.i ver. I am very ;>leased to be able to talk on behalf of the motion sponsored by the member for Torngat l".ountains (!-!r. G. Warren) and again I e:xpress my s:r"111Pathy to him and to his family of the death in their immediate family. This is a proposal that is really long overd~e, t-he air illl'.bulanc:e service in Labrador. It has been pointed out that anywhere in the Island part of our Province, Newfoundland, that if you need to :be transferred from a hospital in Roddic:kton to St.

John's it is only fifty dollars. A couple of things have been mentioned,and I was going to speak in a little bit more (inaudible), but there are couple of ~~ings that I want to bring up in particular that I found a little bit disturbing. Cne was the member for St. John's CentrE {?r. P. McNicholas) ;basically he ended up saying that with our priorities and getting cur priorities right that basically we, as the members of the Bouse of Asse~ly, should not accept a pay increase until the oil flows. - I would give the member from St.

John's eentre of having that basically L"l his mind and really feeling that it could be done. But I regret to say that in serving in my district of Eagle River,which is one of the largest in land mass, not in populatior. 1 that I can not do it on my salary. I was making the saD"e salary as when I was teaching and yet now I am expected to visit, I am expected to pay air fares, I am expected to pay transportation by boats and getting me from A to B. So the member from St.

John's Centre 1who has a thrivin~ business and I am sure a salary well in excess of what most people make in this House,and maybe with some other lllf"i"1bc~ could eaSily do away and say, "O!c..ay, I will not accept the increase." But again we must come back to the realities that it is not being realistic. Anothe1.· point I am concerned about is of the attitude the Province is taking, 1 wait until the oil comes.' What are the people in my district going to do when they 854

March 12, 1980 Tape No. 328 SD - 3 MR. E. HISCOCK: want an increase of money so that they can get a motor,so they can get their boat? The oil is not going to affect the people in my district. The only way it is going to affect the people in my district in Labrador is that the provincial government is going to be taking money that needs to be spent in my district and in other rural. areas of Newfoundland and taking it 855

:·:arch 12. 19 ~ Tap e No. 329 EL - 1 MR. E. HISCOCK: anQ. bringing in the infrastructure of the oil here in St. John's and on the J..valon Peninsula. So thalo is all the oil is going to affect us. l>i·e are going to see a down­ grading of services before the services actually come up because- Arl ?I ON. ~I E HB E R: ~~:< . :; . !U SCO<Z : (!:< auc.l ~ .!.

e) do net '=hi nk so . We just heard from the member frorn St. John's Centre (Dr. McNicholas) saying you cannot have your ambulance because we cannot afford it, but when we get the oil you can afford it. So I will go on and point out that basically if government had its ~riorities ric:rht and had an effic­ ient form of government, that we could easily well afford t ... 'O hun­ dred and fifty thousand dollars for the air ambulance service.

We could easily afford maybe ten million or twenty million or twenty­ five million if the government itself ha~ an efficient fo~. of govern­ ment and efficient form of tax collection. AN HON. MEMBER: Come on now (inaudible). MR. E. HIS .c:_OCK: Well, I only will be re?Qrting what the Auditor General will say, so you can say about the Auditor Gen­ eral that, Do not complain to me 1 complain to him. The other one I am a hit concerned with is that the Minister of Health(W.

Housel said spars.e population and I have spoken in the House before and I will continue to speak in my term, as long as I am el~cted in this House, that this is an attitude that we have to overcome. If we continue to look at ser­ vices to be given in this Province in sparse population, then a good many of our rural areas of Newfoundland and Labrador are not going to get the f.acili ties that they de .serve because they do not have the populations. The Minister of Mines and Energy (L.

Barry) ended up saying that! the people in Pinsent Arm, basic .ally 856 -- ... --- .. ~--.~ ...... ....---~··. -'"':'W""""-- • ..... _ ~- : •• ----- ~- -~ -'!..--.., ,--~ ... ~ ... -.. ..,...,......~.:e-~-·· .,..,.,---.~-~"'"''' ·-- .. -.-~,- ·~ ....

:.!arch 12, 1980 Ta!'e !>lo. 329 EL - ~ MR. E. EISCCCK: car1not have power C-ecause tr~ey ci.o not have t~e number of houses, they do not have their whatever and we cannot afford, as a Province, to start encouraging small places, inde9endent that are self-sufficiznt. RoaC.s to various cor:"l"1.unities cannot be built because they are excessive of the amount of money that is need­ ed and available to this Province. Schoo:s, hospital construction or clinic constr~ction, you do not just have the population to warr- ent it.

And I can go around the South Coast, the South Coast of Gaultois, f.ermitage, basically cannot have it. wny? Because the ,:opulation. And yet Gaultois is one of the r.lOSt pa.ying to~>.-ns in this Province, and yet it cannot have the facilities because the govern- ment says that it cannot afford it. The atti~ude, as I said, towards Labrador and towards rural areas is that if you have the population you can have it. If you do not have the population,then you cannot have it.

We have heard that, if I may say, from. the past Liberal Government also, as well as the Conservative Government for the past seven years, and it looks like that ~>Ie are going to have it for the next three or four years according to the ministers that are stand­ ing up, and the civil servants. When I write the civil servants and the IT'.inisters asking for various things in ~Y 6istri~t.

I ~ told, 11 'iou have too sparse a populc.tion anr:: we =annot af::orC. it. 11 ;...nd ye't we are reaping the benefits of Labrador by way of taxation fr~r Iron Ore Cowpany of Canada, increase of taxation of minerals of revenue by Brinco. The Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) basically asks where would the money come from? And the r.1erober for St. John's centre (Dr. McNicholas) as well as most of the government officials asks, where will it come from? \ve have oil rigs drilling of Hopedale and also off Cartwright.

I would assume that they pay a royalty or they pay an exploration fee,Could we not take a little bit away from that and put it towards the air awbulance service? We end up getting annually $24 million dollars frorr. the Upper Churchill- even though we should be getting $500 million-but we get $24 million or $25 million, Could we not take a quarter of a million away from that and give towards air 657

;.!arc~ 12. i9Z~ ':':;;:e ~lo . ;2~ : .. l. -3 :·~~. :::. H!SC_£SK: a.tl'.bulanco 7 ···~ · 1 <:r- ._!t•;e -::he !ro:l ere Co l!'pany of ca:~ac;a i::: !.at:rac:>r City anc t·1abush Hi:les i:l liaou:;i:. Coull! we r:oc cake a bi :: c! ::~e :axa::ior: ::hat tiley er:c up :;:a~·ir:o to t:he governmer: t: ar.d g~ve to~arcs air a~bulance? "e have our fi~h procucts ~~e fish pla~t he~e in st. Jcr.~·s CepenCs on fisr. that i~ er.ts of~ che Nor~"tern coo, also pl aces on the South Coast , Earrour Grace and ''ar!o\ls other areas .

Coulc "-'e !'lOt ta!:e a li ::tle 'cit of reve;:ue thac they par in and c1.·;e to~-rarcs air a."''.bula."1ce? :·:in in g exploratior. in !.ab raco r:eac '1 yea r : i::eleive it is at l<:!ast t:"-'0 or ~:-"tree r.illl.or: dcl:azs i::: n:i:ti:'lc exploration and ~st of chis ~cse!! takes ~lace in ~abrador , As a ress12 lt we have the find of Kitts-Michelin. Here o:~ rave t!:e Kius ­ ~ic!le lin :;:~jec:s ~o~hic:: is ~o!.:~g to ::.e co :::in~ on stream a:'ld the taxation is :;:aic, maybe ·.-e coulc! cal< r a SC2l1 tax atio:: from tha1: and ~1.ve to~arcs the air ~hulance service .

The fis~ procucts itsel! are havbg fisherme c corl~o f:om 858

March 12, 1980 Tape No. 330 GH-1 ~!?.. HISCCCK: Conception Bay and coming down to Labrador. Maybe the pa}nents that they give in tc the goverP~ent,we coQld have it. In the AQditor General's report he ended up mentioning the various expenditures in this area - that if the government - the collection of Rural Develo]_:ment, for example, on pages ten and sixteen, the collection of Rural Development Authority loans are not being pursued - over $7 million and these loans are not beina pursued,and we are talking about S250,000.That is only one - '7 million. Collection of the receivables is not being pursued.

The Department of Municipal Affairs, $1,781,500.63 are not being pursued. The Department of Finance, taxes of $3,712,182 not paid, 53 million, almost S4 million not being paid. Non-collection of certain forest management tax not being pursued, not being collected, not even organized. Retail sales tax not paid to the Province: It ha~ increased in 1978, to :.larch 31st, 1978, to the 31st of -'~arch, 1!?79 - 510 million. So, if you take the SlO million and the $3 million and the S7 million and the $1 million, I think I am almost QP to about S3G million, and we are being told t,.,_at ••e c3.nnot afford 5250,000.

Surely we have a much to be desired ( Inaudible) efficient form of government, of taxation and that. :.laybe this form of government that we have now is that the covernment is so concerned with getting the pot of gold at the and of the rainbow that we are not concerned with running our house in an efficient form of order that we should be doing now, that come in the future we will have so much that we can afford to get rid of SlO million.

We can afford to get rid of $6 million or 53 million, but I say to you and I say to the goverrL~ent and I say to the people of this House,that when I have fishermen in my district who have to go out to Petty Harbour and Triangle and various other areas on the coast, who do not even have a phone, in the Summer and yet they go out and fish there and bring in new dollars to this Province and cannot even get as much as a phone, they basically ask the question - $30 million not being collected because of inefficiency of government.

How r.an I explain that to them, when I have a place down in my district ,a school, a one-room school, kindergarten to Grade 10 with two teachers in it and only one exit and a wood stove in the middle of the centre; and another school, from kindergarten to 659

:1arc h 12, U SO !'a pe No . 330 GH-2 1-L't. HISCOCK: Grade 10 wic h one ~eacher ? !& is su ppos ed to have another teacher but because of accommodation, cannot get one. Another classroom down there the same way. Basically, what I ~ - told about this wiL, the Auditor General oi almost $30 million is not being collected, I can easily tell you what could be done with $30 million in my district. Another one that was pointed out is that where could we get the money.

I-f this government had been planning and had the correct type of people and advisors, we would not have lost $150 million of trying to get a tunnel across the Strait of Belle Isle and had a big blow-up in Flowers Cove and another one in L'Anse-Amour and now ic is all there and · ... hat is there is a hole in the ground.

That is where you could get $2SO,OOO,from that. so when .we hear the governments &nd the various ministers talking about we cannot afforc · it, we canr.ot afforo it, I basicalJu ,..n,,, .. ha•re to ask the question, can we not afford itor casically that we do not want to. we do not want to give the Opposition here any credit that, yes, this is a very, very good private member's motion. The Minister of Health (Mr. House) said himself, "I talked with the member from Torngat (~x. Warren) and I am surprised he broucht it in". He is surprised that he brought it in.

The member from Torngat is surprised he also brought it in. He felt that the only way of bringing it in we may get it, but yet the government is ·basically saying, yes, it is a good motion but ~<.>e really cannot afford it because if it goes through, then the member from Torngat and tl1,is side might get a little oit of credit. But I would say to the people and the government and also the people in my district and in Labrador, they do not care in the long term who gets the credit, 860

March 12, 1980, Tape 331, Page 1 -- apb MR. HISCOCK: who gets the credit as long as that family who needs to get five seats to go to St. John's with their child, or with their complication in pregnancy or whatever. We are not that small. In the short-term, sure, we will try to make political points, but in the long-term what will it do to us? We are here basically to give a betterment service to our Province and to our people. I regret that the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) - yes,he is.

In the speech last week the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development looked at me and basically ended up saying the salmon lodge on the Eagle River, that was operated by the armed forces, and here they had a helicopter stationed there at all times taking the salmon away and not doing anything, and basically it was supposed to be a survival camp. I was a little bit surprised, really, when he directed his question at me. I travelled on the Eagle Ri'Jer, yes. I made it a point of going through the full district.

But I was amazed that the minister would direct the question at me and more or less almost say, basically, 'You are responsible for that lodge down there, and if you had any choice in that you would get rid of it'. But it is the Departments of Lands and Forests and Tourism which gave them the lease. And the criticism, if I may say that, the criticism that the member had of the Royal Canadian Armed Forces, who have their lodge there - and there is salmon fishing there and from what I can gather, there is some abuse of power too, but I am not in a position to say.

I mean, the government has to investigate it, they have the people to classify that and say it. 661

March 12, 1980, Tape 331, Page 2 -- apb MR. HISCOCK: But basically what ends up happening, as I was told by the people from Paradise River and Cartwright, is that the helicopter is there, stationed at all times,and they have had search and rescue efforts and those helicopters which were based there by the armed forces actually did go and deliver people to Goose Bay or ended up delivering to various other areas. So I am not pro or con towards the lodge there itself, but I am­ seeing the minister brought it ~p, I will bring this up publicly now in the House.

Tr.ere is anob,er lodge down on the Eagle River that never even had a licence, and never even had a grant to operate, was down the river three or four miles and by squatters' rights moved up to the main part of the river and is still operating without a licence and without a grant and is complaining that this armed forces lodge is over there and they are taking away all the credit, and they are taking away - and they have the best salmon holes and that. So when the minister turns around and gets up and talks about Eagle River, I suggest to him to look into the other areas there are operated by Mr.

Power from Goose Bay. Can we really, when we talk about salmon conservation, have lodges that are operating that really do not have licences and that? So I think if we are going to criticize we should criticize on both sides.

The resolution itself, air ambulance into Labrador to provide services to other parts of the area, there is no question about it and I will be an extremely surprised and an extremely disappointed person in this House if, when the budget is brought down and after pointing out that over $30 million of non­ collected money, of the inefficiency of this government, that I would say that the government will have to do some 862

t-:arch D, 19 80, Tape J3.l, Page 3 -- apb ~1R. HISCOCK: e~~laining a=ter, why ~~ey ca~~ot af=orc S230,000. Our budget is $1 billio n and here we are asking for $250,000. It is ~'le equivalent of tt•enty - fiv~ ce:1ts of a thousand . If somebccy had one ~~ou sand dollars and asked for twenty -five cents, you t-tould tur:t around and you would just give it like ~,at . ~~d yet, here we are talking about $250,000 out of $1 billion, we have over $31 million or more not collected, so I wo~ld turn a~ound anc recommend to the ~·!inister of Finc.nce (Dr .

Collins) to get a better form of efficien~ government,of collecting ta.'<:ation . To the :-!inister of P~ral, Agricultural and Northern Developmenc (~~. Goudie), get his department in shape . To the Mi:lister of Lands and Forests (Mr . Po1o~er}, get his departmenc in shap e. 863

:1ar::h 12, 1980 Tape i'!o. 332 :::1'ri - 1 :1R. E. HISCCCK: Basically ~y doi~g t~at we not only have S25J,OOO for our air ambulance service but we would hav~ $25 million for schoo1 fo= hospitals, maybe the school out in Grand Falls couli be built if we had a more efficient form of t~xation. SOME HON. ~EMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Butt): SO~E RON. MEMBERS: ~R. W. PATTERSO~: Thank you. P.ear,hear! The hon. member for Placentia. Hear, hear! ~r. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the mover of this motion. It is certai~ly an excellent motion and I have learned about Labrador 1 ! must say,listeninq to the various speakers.

But this savage. unwarranted attack on the government a few minutes ago by the last speaker, the member for Eagle ~iver (Mr. Hiscock) telling us where we can get the money 1 I can tell you where we can get the money;with $650 million going ~into Hydro Quebec because the Giveaway Boys the Jac~ in the Beanstalk Boys give away everything over there. AJ:T HON.~EMBER: We had to do with that. ~R. W. PATTERSON: I can tell you if we had the $60 million out at Come by Chance 1 we certainly could provide the ambulance services and much more that they are asking for. SOME EON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W.

PATTERSON: If we had the $250 million that the Liberals wasted out in Stephenville we certainly could provide that. AN RON. MEMBER: MR . W. PATTERSON: (Inaudible) going to do (inaudiblei " If we had t~~ millions that went into the hookey stick plant, the electric light ~lant, and the ----· - ~--- -- ... . ~ -- chain link fence plant and the magnesia plant all put there by the Liberals 1 we could do it. I would say that you are distorting and maligning this motion. It is an excellent 864

1·!arch 12, 198C Tape )lo. 332 D'~'l'7 - 2 ~R. W. PATTERSO~: motion and we are gain- to suppo~t it on this side a= ~he Eouse. 3ut all this trash! lf you are looki~g for something from some~ody,you do not go around insulting them or using the people sick in Labrador as hostages for your chea? political ~ell-beir-q. SOME EON. ~EXBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. PAT~ERSON: You talk a~c11t crovernrnent planning. We just look back a few years,and we have seen all the planning all the plans go up in smoke. AN HON.. ~-!E~~iB~P~: (Inaudibl=l :1R. !'1.

PATTERSON: The $670 million as I mentioned tr.at is going into F.ydro Quebec and we are getting $7 million. Wh~re were your priorities then, you were not there but it was a Liberal philosphy, a giveaway philosophy. AN HON. ME~BER: You have been in nine years.Do something about it. MR. W. PATTBRS~N: We are going to do something about it but you do not do everythino the first few days you are in there.And if you had stood up here today and supported that motion,as your hen. friend~ho introduced it would like you to do and forget your partisan politics!

Do not put the sick of this country, do not use them as hostages. Do not push them ahead of your forces, the crippled and the dying just because you think they are going to earn you a few votes. You will get your number in the next election. support this motion. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! I am going to MR. F. ROWE: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (BUtt) for Trinity ~ Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: A point of order, the han. member Mr. Speaker, we have had a very good debate up until this point and I think the hen. member presently speaking is definitely out of order.

I do not know which edition of Beauchesnes I have here but it is on page 130 that, "The imputation of bad motiv~s, or motives 865

~1arc:1. 12, 1980 Ta?e ~lo. 3 32 l)~'] - :-lR.. F. ?..0~·\'~: ~ifferent fro~ those acknow- ledged, misrepresenting the language o= another, or accusi~g him, in his turn, of misrE9resentation, charging hi~ wi~h falsehood or deceit; or contewptuous or insulting lanqaage of any k~nC; all t~ese are unpar:iamentary a~d call for prompt inter~erence. 1 • !:ow, ~r. Speaker, t~e han. member presently speaking said thac the han. member who ~ad last spoken,the menbar for Eagle ?iver {:~r .. Eiscock) /Has pushinq t~e dead, che dyina and the sick fer his own ?Olitical gains.

I would suggesc, Sir, that t~at is certainly imputi~; ~ctives in this 2ouse an~ I would ask the ~on. ~ember to wit~draw and refrain from making these kind of inflamatory rer.tarks. XR. S?EAKZR (3utt}: ~o the point of order, the ho~. President a= the Co~r.cil . ;•1R. ~7. ~·!A?.SP.'ALL: Y.r. Speaker, in t~e first place the han. me~ber does net ask the other han. member to with­ draw and aoologize; any withdrawal has to come from the C:O,.air. That is nu~ber one~ number two,the point of order is specious,it is wi~hout founda~ion and it is got P-O validity whatsoever.

AN HOX. ~!EMBER: :·!F... 'II. ~!ARS HALL: It is a waste of the time of the han. member co bring it up.Cer~ainly you can get up and you can cite Beauchesne all the han. gentleman wishes to 1 and you are not allowed to ascribe motives to people, you are not allowed to insult people 0 The han. gentleman was not ascribing motives, the han. gentleman was not insulting people.

What the hen. gentleman was doing, he was responding in the debate.to the charges made by the han. gentleman - and the han. gentlemen actually because they have been eminating from that side of the House in this debate to the effect that there would be more money available if the government found it 1:n1 referring to the Auditor General's report and what have you. Now 666

~larch 12,1980 1'age No . 3 3 3 !B-: MR . H.O.RSHALL: all r ~eard the non . ~e~tlem~n say ~as not a mac ~~~ of i~sul~ o~ i~~u~i~g moti~es o: a~yt~i~g, he was en~a;ed in racional aa~a~e, Mr . SpEaker. All he was doing was speaki~~ ~~e ~acts. SOH=: EON . XEN3E~S: Hear. hear! MR. S?SAK=:R ( 3UT~): To the point o ~ orCer, the realm o! disc~ssion during a Prlvace Me~ber's ~otion is rather broadening ouc asd going beyocd t he barriers,we will say,and I would ask the hon. gencleman ~ro~ Placentia ( Nr . Patterson) to conrine his remarks ~o the mot_on . The bon. mem~er for Placentia. SO~E HON . M~MBERS: Hear hear! MR .

PATTERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I '"'Ould not have drawn politics into this debate but for the unwarranted and savaqe actack mads on the qover~menc. :t ~s a mocherhood issue. They know we are g~ing to support it over here. There is no dou~~ at ail abouc that. A~ EON . aEMSER: Then oring it i~ . MR. NEARY: ~!R. P.'I.'!'TERSON: The Miniscer o= Healt~ - AN EON . :.tEHSE~: :1R. Pi'.TTERSO~! : We do noc kno~ that . Oh, you can be sure of that . Put it tlu:ouch. You will see when che vote co~es on it. It is no~ a matter of mon ey. It is certainly not a matter of money .

It is ~ matter of anal y zing the =acts of it and I must say that I have learned quite a bit about che conditions in Labrador , althougn I spent consicerazle years in the North, in Greenland where things were much worse. And I lived in Newfoundland in the 1930's when things were 10,000 times worse a~d we all know there is need for change 1 but chere is not eno~gh money in the world to bring about all the changes thac are necessary. But I am going to support the motion and r am sure that most members of t~is Bouse will supporc it. Thank you. SOHE liON. HE~IBERS : Hear, hear ! 867

March 12, 1980 ~R. SPEAKER {BUTT ] MR. BENNETT: Tape No. 333 IB-2 The non. member for St. Barbe. Mr. Speaker, I would like to have a few words of support on the resolution put forth by my colleague from Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren). Actually I am myself disturbed to think that we have in the past up until this time, in the last good number cf years, seen fit to neglect such an needy thing as an ambulance service in the Labrador. It seems to me that we have reasonably good am~ulance services in our Province at this time. I represenc a district on the Northern Peninsula that is the gateway to Labrador.

We have a ferry boat there which,mind you 1 leaves much to be desired but it is all in the system, a network of transportation,mind you,that leads to the facilities that we have on the Island part of the Province. Sometirr.es we are unhappy with the ambulance service that we have because of the strategy in which it is placed 1 like sixty miles away from the emergency that might arise,but we can usually overcome it.

I am very anxious myself and probably I should not even be taking up the time of the House of Assembly at this time because I understand now it looks like we are going to have full support of this resolution. So probably I am wasting the time of the han. House, Mr. Speaker. I would like to remind the han. House, Mr.

Speaker, that the cost of li<ing in Labrador is, I feel, much, much higher presently than on the Island portion of the Province, the cost of living is higher.Before we start on the non-existent ambulance service 1 the tax s~ructure in itself generates,I would suggest 1 probably enough revenue to support an air ambulance service 1 just the SSA tax probably, possibly in itself in the inflated cost of living in Labrador. I would also like to remind the hen. gentlemen, Mr.

Speaker, in this House of Assembly that Labrador is made up basically of people who have gone across there from the Island and they are all the same people, really 868

~larch l2, 198J Tape :>Ic. 333 IS-3 ~,T?... :SL:.l'N.2'!''I': a~d tculy they are all the sane people. They ~re Islanders first of all and then they have m~ved ova~ to make a living in Labrador and up until this time we have seen fit to deny them a lot of tha services, ~ lot of the benefits and privile ·;es 869

~1arch 12, 1980 Tape No. 334 IB-1 !1R. BENNETT: that we take for granted. We take it for granted on the Island. The longer we t~ke the people of Labrador for granted, if indeed we do,the easier it makes for them to be unhappy and disgruntled and the easier it makes for our neighbors to the South to infiltrate the ranks. The greater the wedge of division becomes between the Island part of the Province and the Labrador part of the Province,the heavier that wedge gets driven horne. I think everybody in this han.

House would be reluctant to widen the gap of unity and compassion that we presently have for the people in Labrador. We are all the same people. We have all,I feel 1 unanimously agreed that we have to provide the service. If we cannot provide it in the form of specialized personnel on the Labrador,I feel myself it probably might cost a lot less money to provide a service of transportation so that the people in Labrador could come to the Island portion.

It would cost a lot less money,I feel,to bring people from Labrador to the specialized services that we have in every form, medical and many other forrrs of service. So I think it is a saving on the part of the gcvernment to introduce an ambulance service for Labrador in lieu of having to provide the service in Labrador itself. I tcink at this time we dare notnot recognize the plight, I think we dare notnot recognize and support this resolution-and this I feel is one of many resolutions that might very well see fit or see a need of support from the han. House. I feel that we need say very little more in support.

I feel that a lot has been said in support of an air ambulance service and I question now if we will accomplish a lot more. I think the mind of the minister and the minds of the rest of the representatives in this han. House of Assembly, Mr. Speaker, are made up. I think they are going to support this bill and I would like to congratulate them and thank you for bearing with me. Thank you very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 870 ... , - ~ ~ .. ~--- ·-.-~- .... - ,..,.,..,_.. ..,,.....,......,....._, ~ ,._....,--r..--~ .. -·•o

Ha::-ci:: 1:?, 19<10 Ta;>e ~o . 334 IB-2 MR. SPEAKER (BUTT) The he~. member for ~!en ih ~k . so:1E Ho:1 . ;tE ~!o::: ?.s : ~ea~, hear! MR . W."':::..SP. : ~es , , Mr. Spea~cr, i most. ce:!:'~air.l!J su?port this mvti on a~c I do no~ think it j~st a??lies to Lab radoi. T~e~ are athe~ areas o~ ou r ? ~ ovi~ce Nhers it ~on be ;..ns~i;.uu:.eci . 1 a.n sure oc.~er membe ~s oi t:.h'!! Souse ·,;ill go along with that . I did not bring my six-shooters. I arn noc a believer o~ this shoocin; back and ~or~h acrcss ~h~ House .

I think we should qet on ~icb ths b~siness c! gov~r~ing the affairs of this Provin:e , what we ~ere elecced fo: . we can go back in c o t~me : I have been a resi6e~c o: Labrador fo= cwenty - one yea rs and to say , who should have i~sci~ut~~ ~hac, I have been informe~ by m~ colleague, th~ Xinister o= Healch ( ~lr . ?louse)chat chey ar~ ... ·orking on :his sit:uation . ! hav~ e7e r y con~idence,and like my colleague f r om Eaql~ River ( ~ r . ais~ock) I will b e rather disappointed if there is noc somethins there ~ealing ~ ith t: his situacion . So in conclu~i~g very shortly, ~r .

S?eaker, I de sup?orc the ~ocion but not just: on the Lebrado~ r ~gio~ . ! think this applies to a loc of other areas in tne ~rovince, che Souchern Shore. My f rie~ d ~rom up t~e No~thern Penin s ula , I a m sure it c o mes in effact there and difee r en~ other places . do support: the mo ~