Province of Alberta The 27th Legislature Fourth Session Alberta Hansard Wednesday, March 9, 2011 Issue 10 The Honourable Kenneth R. Kowalski, Speaker

Legislative Assembly of Alberta The 27th Legislature Fourth Session Kowalski, Hon. Ken, Barrhead-Morinville-Westlock, Speaker Cao, Wayne C.N., Calgary-Fort, Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees Mitzel, Len, Cypress-Medicine Hat, Deputy Chair of Committees Ady, Hon. Cindy, Calgary-Shaw (PC) Allred, Ken, St. Albert (PC) Amery, Moe, Calgary-East (PC) Anderson, Rob, Airdrie-Chestermere (WA), WA Opposition House Leader Benito, Carl, Edmonton-Mill Woods (PC) Berger, Evan, Livingstone-Macleod (PC) Bhardwaj, Naresh, Edmonton-Ellerslie (PC) Bhullar, Manmeet Singh, Calgary-Montrose (PC) Blackett, Hon.

Lindsay, Calgary-North West (PC) Blakeman, Laurie, Edmonton-Centre (AL), Official Opposition House Leader Boutilier, Guy C., Fort McMurray-Wood Buffalo (WA) Brown, Dr. Neil, QC, Calgary-Nose Hill (PC) Calahasen, Pearl, Lesser Slave Lake (PC) Campbell, Robin, West Yellowhead (PC), Government Whip Chase, Harry B., Calgary-Varsity (AL), Official Opposition Whip Dallas, Cal, Red Deer-South (PC) Danyluk, Hon. Ray, Lac La Biche-St. Paul (PC) DeLong, Alana, Calgary-Bow (PC) Denis, Hon.

Jonathan, QC, Calgary-Egmont (PC), Deputy Government House Leader Doerksen, Arno, Strathmore-Brooks (PC), Deputy Government Whip Drysdale, Wayne, Grande Prairie-Wapiti (PC) Elniski, Doug, Edmonton-Calder (PC) Evans, Hon. Iris, Sherwood Park (PC) Fawcett, Kyle, Calgary-North Hill (PC) Forsyth, Heather, Calgary-Fish Creek (WA), WA Opposition Whip Fritz, Hon. Yvonne, Calgary-Cross (PC) Goudreau, Hon. Hector G., Dunvegan-Central Peace (PC) Griffiths, Doug, Battle River-Wainwright (PC) Groeneveld, George, Highwood (PC) Hancock, Hon. Dave, QC, Edmonton-Whitemud (PC), Government House Leader Hayden, Hon.

Jack, Drumheller-Stettler (PC) Hehr, Kent, Calgary-Buffalo (AL) Hinman, Paul, Calgary-Glenmore (WA), WA Opposition Deputy Leader Horne, Fred, Edmonton-Rutherford (PC) Horner, Doug, Spruce Grove-Sturgeon-St. Albert (PC) Jablonski, Hon. Mary Anne, Red Deer-North (PC) Jacobs, Broyce, Cardston-Taber-Warner (PC) Johnson, Jeff, Athabasca-Redwater (PC) Johnston, Art, Calgary-Hays (PC) Kang, Darshan S., Calgary-McCall (AL) Klimchuk, Hon. Heather, Edmonton-Glenora (PC) Knight, Hon. Mel, Grande Prairie-Smoky (PC) Leskiw, Genia, Bonnyville-Cold Lake (PC) Liepert, Hon.

Ron, Calgary-West (PC) Lindsay, Fred, Stony Plain (PC) Lukaszuk, Hon. Thomas A., Edmonton-Castle Downs (PC), Deputy Government House Leader Lund, Ty, Rocky Mountain House (PC) MacDonald, Hugh, Edmonton-Gold Bar (AL) Marz, Richard, Olds-Didsbury-Three Hills (PC) Mason, Brian, Edmonton-Highlands-Norwood (ND), Leader of the ND Opposition McFarland, Barry, Little Bow (PC) McQueen, Diana, Drayton Valley-Calmar (PC) Morton, F.L., Foothills-Rocky View (PC) Notley, Rachel, Edmonton-Strathcona (ND), ND Opposition House Leader Oberle, Hon. Frank, Peace River (PC) Olson, Hon.

Verlyn, QC, Wetaskiwin-Camrose (PC), Deputy Government House Leader Ouellette, Hon. Luke, Innisfail-Sylvan Lake (PC) Pastoor, Bridget Brennan, Lethbridge-East (AL), Official Opposition Deputy Whip, Official Opposition Deputy Leader Prins, Ray, Lacombe-Ponoka (PC) Quest, Dave, Strathcona (PC) Redford, Alison M., QC, Calgary-Elbow (PC) Renner, Hon. Rob, Medicine Hat (PC), Deputy Government House Leader Rodney, Dave, Calgary-Lougheed (PC) Rogers, George, Leduc-Beaumont-Devon (PC) Sandhu, Peter, Edmonton-Manning (PC) Sarich, Janice, Edmonton-Decore (PC) Sherman, Dr. Raj, Edmonton-Meadowlark (Ind) Snelgrove, Hon.

Lloyd, Vermilion-Lloydminster (PC) Stelmach, Hon. Ed, Fort Saskatchewan-Vegreville (PC), Premier Swann, Dr. David, Calgary-Mountain View (AL), Leader of the Official Opposition Taft, Dr. Kevin, Edmonton-Riverview (AL) Tarchuk, Janis, Banff-Cochrane (PC) Taylor, Dave, Calgary-Currie (AB) VanderBurg, George, Whitecourt-Ste. Anne (PC) Vandermeer, Tony, Edmonton-Beverly-Clareview (PC) Weadick, Hon. Greg, Lethbridge-West (PC) Webber, Hon. Len, Calgary-Foothills (PC) Woo-Paw, Teresa, Calgary-Mackay (PC) Xiao, David H., Edmonton-McClung (PC) Zwozdesky, Hon.

Gene, Edmonton-Mill Creek (PC), Deputy Government House Leader Officers and Officials of the Legislative Assembly Clerk W.J. David McNeil Law Clerk/Director of Interparliamentary Relations Robert H. Reynolds, QC Senior Parliamentary Counsel/ Director of House Services Shannon Dean Manager – House Proceedings Micheline S. Gravel Parliamentary Counsel Stephanie LeBlanc Committee Research Co-ordinator Philip Massolin Sergeant-at-Arms Brian G. Hodgson Assistant Sergeant-at-Arms Chris Caughell Assistant Sergeant-at-Arms Gordon H.

Munk Managing Editor of Alberta Hansard Liz Sim Party standings: Progressive Conservative: 67 Alberta Liberal: 8 Wildrose Alliance: 4 New Democrat: 2 Alberta: 1 Independent: 1

Executive Council Ed Stelmach Premier, President of Executive Council, Chair of Agenda and Priorities Committee, Vice-chair of Treasury Board, Liaison to the Canadian Armed Forces Lloyd Snelgrove President of the Treasury Board, Minister of Finance and Enterprise Dave Hancock Minister of Education, Political Minister for Edmonton Iris Evans Minister of International and Intergovernmental Relations Mel Knight Minister of Sustainable Resource Development Luke Ouellette Minister of Transportation Rob Renner Minister of Environment Verlyn Olson Minister of Justice and Attorney General Yvonne Fritz Minister of Children and Youth Services, Political Minister for Calgary Jack Hayden Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development, Political Minister for Rural Alberta Ray Danyluk Minister of Infrastructure Gene Zwozdesky Minister of Health and Wellness Ron Liepert Minister of Energy Mary Anne Jablonski Minister of Seniors and Community Supports Len Webber Minister of Aboriginal Relations Heather Klimchuk Minister of Service Alberta Lindsay Blackett Minister of Culture and Community Spirit Cindy Ady Minister of Tourism, Parks and Recreation Hector Goudreau Minister of Municipal Affairs Frank Oberle Solicitor General and Minister of Public Security Jonathan Denis Minister of Housing and Urban Affairs Thomas Lukaszuk Minister of Employment and Immigration Greg Weadick Minister of Advanced Education and Technology Parliamentary Assistants Evan Berger Sustainable Resource Development Manmeet Singh Bhullar Municipal Affairs Cal Dallas Finance and Enterprise Fred Horne Health and Wellness Broyce Jacobs Agriculture and Rural Development Jeff Johnson Treasury Board (Oil Sands Sustainable Development Secretariat) Diana McQueen Energy Janice Sarich Education Teresa Woo-Paw Employment and Immigration

STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Standing Committee on the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund Chair: Ms Tarchuk Deputy Chair: Mr. Elniski DeLong Forsyth Groeneveld Johnston MacDonald Quest Taft Standing Committee on Community Services Chair: Mr. Doerksen Deputy Chair: Mr. Hehr Allred Anderson Benito Bhullar Chase Johnston Notley Rodney Sarich Taylor Standing Committee on the Economy Chair: Mr. Bhardwaj Deputy Chair: Mr. Chase Amery Dallas Fawcett Hinman Johnson Lund Taft Tarchuk Taylor Woo-Paw Standing Committee on Health Chair: Mr.

McFarland Deputy Chair: Ms Pastoor Forsyth Griffiths Groeneveld Horne Lindsay Notley Quest Sherman Swann Vandermeer Standing Committee on Legislative Offices Chair: Mr. Mitzel Deputy Chair: Mr. Lund Bhullar Blakeman Campbell Hinman Lindsay MacDonald Marz Notley Quest Rogers Special Standing Committee on Members’ Services Chair: Mr. Kowalski Deputy Chair: Mr. Campbell Amery Anderson Bhullar Elniski Hehr Leskiw Mason Pastoor Rogers VanderBurg Standing Committee on Private Bills Chair: Dr.

Brown Deputy Chair: Ms Woo-Paw Allred Benito Boutilier Calahasen Dallas Doerksen Drysdale Hinman Horner Jacobs Kang Lindsay McQueen Morton Redford Sandhu Sarich Taft Xiao Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections, Standing Orders and Printing Chair: Mr. Prins Deputy Chair: Mr. Hancock Amery Berger Calahasen DeLong Doerksen Forsyth Groeneveld Hinman Jacobs Leskiw Lindsay McFarland Mitzel Notley Pastoor Quest Sherman Tarchuk Taylor Standing Committee on Public Accounts Chair: Mr. MacDonald Deputy Chair: Mr.

Rodney Allred Anderson Benito Calahasen Chase Dallas Elniski Fawcett Griffiths Groeneveld Kang Mason Sandhu Vandermeer Xiao Standing Committee on Public Safety and Services Chair: Mr. Drysdale Deputy Chair: Mr. Kang Boutilier Brown Calahasen Cao Forsyth Johnson MacDonald Rogers Sandhu Xiao Standing Committee on Resources and Environment Chair: Mr. Prins Deputy Chair: Ms Blakeman Anderson Berger Boutilier Hehr Jacobs Marz Mason McQueen Mitzel VanderBurg Select Special Ombudsman Search Committee Chair: Mr. Mitzel Deputy Chair: Mr. Lund Blakeman Hinman Lindsay Marz Notley Quest Rogers

March 9, 2011 Alberta Hansard 259 Legislative Assembly of Alberta Title: Wednesday, March 9, 2011 1:30 p.m. 1:30 p.m. Wednesday, March 9, 2011 [The Speaker in the chair] head: Prayers The Speaker: Good afternoon. Let us pray. Renew us with your strength. Focus us in our de- liberations. Challenge us in our service to the people of this great province. Amen. Please be seated. head: Introduction of Guests The Speaker: The hon. Member for St. Albert. Mr. Allred: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

It’s my privilege and pleasure today to rise and introduce to you and to all of the Assembly 45 of the brightest grade 6 students in the province from Sir Alexander Mackenzie school in St. Albert. These students are accompanied by their teachers, Mr. Roger Bouthillier and Mrs. Janet Hurley, and a student teacher, Miss Chantal Fournier. I would ask them all to rise and receive the traditional warm wel- come of the Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Advanced Education and Technology. Mr. Weadick: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It’s an honour today to introduce to you and through you to members of this Assembly the Alberta Students’ Executive Council, or ASEC. This organiza- tion has advocated on behalf of postsecondary students in our province for over 29 years. They represent over 120,000 postsec- ondary students in Alberta from coll eges, technical institutes, and universities. ASEC is an active stakeholder in postsecondary edu- cation. They work hard to ensure that front-line student issues are clearly communicated to government, and that’s what they’re here doing this week.

This week there are 10 members here, and I’d like them to stand as I introduce them: Carol Neuman, Steven Kwasny, Timothy Jobs, Meghan Melnyk, Kerri Hartman, Jeff Desjarlais, Brady Schnell, Ben Wilson, Martha Affleck, and Jamie Fraleigh. Let’s give them a warm welcome. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Seniors and Community Sup- ports. Mrs. Jablonski: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today it’s my honour and my great pleasure to introduce to you and through you to members of this Assembly the members of the Central Alberta Women’s Outreach Society.

They’ve joined us here today to tour our beautiful Legislature and to celebrate with us, in a member’s statement to follow, their out standing achievement of opening Julietta’s Place. Mr. Speaker, the Member for Red Deer-South and I would like to thank this dedicated, hard-w orking group, who work tirelessly to create a safe and supportive pl ace for women and children in transition. They are helping people in Red Deer who are seeking refuge from domestic violence to achieve a better life. I would like to introduce Barb Barber, executive director. Barb, if you would stand.

Charlie Turnbull, who is a staff member; Kelsey Steeg; Christina Gagné; Alesia Kossmann; and Danielle Klooster, who is a board member. They are seated in the public gallery, and I’d like to ask you to give them the traditional warm welcome of this As- sembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Manning. Mr. Sandhu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is my pleasure to rise today and introduce to you and through you to the members of this Assembly eight seniors and orga nizers from the Northgate Lions seniors’ centre. They are Miss Amber Ritco, Mrs.

Norah Dias, Shirley Jones, Barbara Appleton, Jim Appleton, Doris Derko, Lori Weishaar, and Agnes Gartner. Over the lunch hour I was lucky to get a photo taken with them. I have visited the centre many times, Mr. Speaker. Unfortunate- ly, due to the extreme weather on January 25 the roof on the facility collapsed, and renovations are needed. This centre serves so many seniors for their recreation and is a gathering place for the community. I would like to thank them for still making the trip to the Legislature. I will look forward to seeing the centre rebuilt as soon as possible.

Now I would like to ask them to please stand and receive the traditional warm welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Meadowlark. Dr. Sherman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Joining us today is a group of some of the hardest working, most ambitious young peo- ple in my constituency from Alde rgrove elementary school. These are the future teachers and doctors and nurses and leaders of this community. They are joined by their teacher, Ms Amber Neren- berg, and by their parent group: Parry Chizawsky, Mrs. Pat Goodwin, and Jeff Bartlett.

I would ask all of my colleagues here to give them a warm welcome and ask my friends to rise to re- ceive the warm welcome of the Assembly. head: Members’ Statements The Speaker: The hon. Member for Red Deer-South. Julietta’s Place Mr. Dallas: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It gives me great pleasure to rise today and recognize the Ce ntral Alberta Women’s Outreach Society, a Red Deer based agency which began in 1984 to help women who have chosen to pursue a safer, healthier, and more secure life for themselves and their families. In November 2010 I was privileged to attend along with the hon.

Member for Red Deer-North the grand opening of Julietta’s Place, the first of a second-stage housing initiative fo r central Alberta. This home ensures a safe, supportive, and healthy environment for women and their children fleeing domestic relationship violence and pur- suing a better life with long-term stability. Women can live in Julietta’s Place for up to 18 months while they work with an out- reach worker to access supports, transition to independence, and heal from abuse. Mr.

Speaker, programs at Central Alberta Women’s Outreach Society include crisis interventi on, intensive domestic violence support, legal support, court prep aration, housing support, moni- tored exchange, safe visitation, and a support group. These proven programs position the women of Julietta’s Place, not to mention numerous other community members, to develop personal skills and resiliencies that can help them achieve long-term success. Julietta’s Place receives 70 per cent funding from the municipal block funding through Housing and Urban Affairs.

Since this project was initiated, continued generous outpouring of commu- nity support has been a tremendous benefit.

260 Alberta Hansard March 9, 2011 Mr. Speaker, I’d like to congratulate the Central Al berta Women’s Outreach Society board of directors, staff, and all co m- munity supporters of the outreach project for their dedication and hard work on the opening of Julietta’s Place. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Varsity. Association for the Rehabilitation of the Brain Injured Mr. Chase: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Making life better. I r e- cently had the opportunity to visit a well -respected community agency in Calgary, the Association for the Rehabilitation of the Brain Injured, ARBI.

When I was tou ring the facility, I learned that making life better is the mission statement of the organization, which began over 30 years ago as the result of the vision and dedication of one woman. This is an ongoing story of overcoming incredible odds. As part of my tour I met individuals of varying ages fighting to move past their limitations.

With the dedicated efforts of trained staff and a host of volunteers, despite very little government recognition or financial support, these traumatic brain injury and stroke survivors are working hard to regain what they had lost, and in many cases they were written off as being irretrievable. ARBI is the only community, nonprofit day program in the province that offers hope to people who are affected by a severe brain injury or stroke. Through intensive, longer -term therapy and support, survivors experience amazing improvement. ARBI has been providing spe- cialized services for more than 32 years.

They often help their clients leave long-term care and return home to their families. ARBI’s model, using community volunteers, is clearly a cost - efficient and effective model of delivery. More than 92 per cent of ARBI’s referrals come from Alberta Health Services medical pro- fessionals. For these reasons, I believe that Alberta Health Services should be compensating them for the essential services they are providing for the Calgary region and rural areas of our province. I recommend a tour for anyone who is interested. I guarantee you will be inspired. The Speaker: The hon.

Member for Edmonton-Decore. 1:40 Math Curriculum Mrs. Sarich: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is interesting to note that we use mathematics on a daily basis whether we realize it or not. Just like reading and writing, a solid foundation and understanding of mathematics is essential for everyday living and for our wor k- force. These skills are highly valued in science, business, trades, and technology but also in other areas like fine arts, music, and sports.

More than ever, Alberta students need a strong grounding in mathematics to meet the challenges of learning in the 21st cen- tury and to be successful in their futures. In keeping with Alberta’s reputation of world-class creation of curricula, the revised kindergarten to grade 12 mathematics pr o- gram maintains the standard by integrating current research, developments, and trends in mathematics learning and teaching. Mr. Speaker, the programs of study were developed in collab o- ration with teachers, administrators, parents, business represent - atives, postsecondary institutions.

Heartfelt special thanks to all those involved. Students from kindergarten to grade 10 across Alberta are cur- rently being taught the revised math curriculum. The implement - ation of the program will continue this fall in grade 11 and in 2012 in grade 12. I encourage all Albertans to visit Alberta Education’s math website, which contains the most up-to -date information, in Eng- lish and French, about the revised mathematics curriculum. This renewal of the mathematics program emphasizes and rei n- forces, Mr.

Speaker, the government’s commitment to Albertans that education is indeed a priority and is forward thinking, a com- mitment that benefits our greatest resource, our children and our youth. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie. Sexual Exploitation Awareness Week Mr. Bhardwaj: T hank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I’m hon- oured to rise today to recognize March 7 to 11 as Sexual Exploitation Awareness Week in Edmonton. Sexual exploitation has devastating and lasting effects. That is unacceptable in any form.

By proclaiming Sexual Exploitation Awareness Week, the city of Edmonton is shining a light on this important issue and reaffirming that it will not be tolerated. There are a number of events occurring to raise awareness and help citizens learn more about sexual exploitation and what they can do about it. Mr. Speaker, Alberta is a national leader in working to protect children and youth who are at risk of being sexually exploited. Our Protection of Sexually Exploited Children Act is the first and only legislation of its kind in Canada.

We also provide resources to assist parents and caregivers in educating their children and teens about dangers they may face online through Internet luring. Sexual exploitation can happen to anyone, male or female, from any background. There is help available. If an Albertan knows a child or a youth at risk of being sexually exploited or young pe o- ple of their family are looking for help themselves, they can call the child abuse hotline at 1.800.387.KIDS.

I congratulate all of the partners in Edmonton and area who are working together to recognize and support events during the 2011 Sexual Exploitation Awareness Week. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Hays. Trico Centre for Family Wellness Mr. Johnston: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s a great pleasure and honour for me to rise today and talk about a great community neighbour in Calgary. For over 28 years they have worked with 28 surrounding community associations and 36 communities in south Calgary to support healthy kids, healthy families, and vibrant se n- iors.

Everyone appreciates the need for children to live happy, healthy lives, and any of us would be thankful for assistance for seniors to meet their unique health and physical needs. This great neighbour, who does all of this and more, is the community - owned, nonprofit Trico Centre for Family Wellness, located in Calgary-Egmont. The Trico centre is one of the true jewels in the city of Calgary. The Alberta government has provided over $6 million grant fund- ing from Culture and Community Spirit since 2008.

The physical infrastructure includes a large redeveloped fitness area with ru n- ning tracks, aquatic centre, and twin arenas. The centre also includes a seniors’ club centre, a child care facility, and several multipurpose rooms. The combination of impressive amenities and the long -standing relationship with the local communities forms one of the most popular destinations for families in the e n- tire city.

March 9, 2011 Alberta Hansard 261 I would like to thank and congratulate the board members, st aff, and volunteers for nearly three decades of service in south Cal- gary. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Airdrie-Chestermere. Wildrose Alliance Party Inclusiveness Mr. Anderson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Earlier this week the Member for Edmonton-Calder in a childish tirade said that I a t- tacked trade workers for suggesting that the $275 million MLA offices should not have been undertaken during a time of record deficits.

He then inv oked the classic left -wing nugget of class warfare in a manner that would make my friends in the NDP blush, saying: what could a white -collar worker possibly know about running a business, meeting a payroll, or working with ones’ hands? Well, I’m not going to stoop to this member’s rhetorical level, but I will say this.

I have started, owned, and operated a small business, and aside from my father and one brother I come from a large immediate and extended family of tradespeople whom I love and respect, and these tradespeople are telling me that they would rather be working on a school for their kids than on some fat -cat offices for politicians. Others, still working on oil rigs in B.C. and Saskatchewan, would like to be working in Alberta, which they were until this government’s ignorant policies drove them out.

They would like their government to keep their election promise to balance the books instead of spending like drunks on a binge. They would like their MLAs to stand up and vote for a cut to their golden parachutes rather than talk about how much they’ve earned them. They want to know that when their kids have a health issue, they can go to an ER and not have to wait 24 hours to be treated. They are ticked off about the impending increase to their pow er bills because their government awarded billions in unneeded transmission line contracts to their buddies.

And they are fed up with their PC MLAs continually showing that they are more loyal to their political party than to those who voted for them. We in the Wildrose don’t do class warfare. We’re here to unite all Albertans, every ethnicity and religion, old and young, male and female, healthy and sick, rich and poor, blue collar and white collar. We’re here to let Albertans turn the page and write a ne w and better

chapter for the province they love, and let me tell you, for the majority of them the next election can’t come soon enough. head: Tabling Returns and Reports Mr. Liepert: I have some significant documents to table, Mr. Speaker, and these are t he processing and marketing agreements under the agreement that the government of Alberta signed with North West Upgrading recently. I’d like to table five copies of each. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Mountain View. Dr. Swann: Thank you very mu ch, Mr. Speaker. I have two t a- blings today.

The first is from nine physicians and their families from communities in Alberta requesting continued support for the physician and family support program, which is in jeopardy. The second is from an individual whose family member has been seeking transsexual surgery for three years and has been under terrific duress with suicide threats that are affecting the whole family and is requesting urgent attention to that problem. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Calder. Mr. Elniski: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have four tablings this afternoon.

The first is the Calgary Herald editorial yesterday enti- tled Throwing Bricks: Halting Legislature Project in Mid -stream Makes No Sense. The secon d is a letter from the hon. Member for Airdrie- Chestermere, a short note. The third one is my response to that letter. The fourth one, Mr. Speaker, is his response to me. I table the appropriate number of copies right now. Thank you very much. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Currie. Mr. Taylor: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have two t a- blings today, one from Dr.

Alexandra Howlett in regard to the AMA’s physician and family support program and the other one from Dr. Nicola Watkins in relation to the proposed termination of nine programs enlisted to help Alberta doctors achieve a patients - first agenda. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands - Norwood. Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to table the appropriate number of copies of an excerpt from the Occup a- tional Health and Safety Code 2009 relating to hazard assessment, elimination, and control.

The document relates to my questions still to come. 1:50 head: Oral Question Period The Speaker: First Official Opposition main question. The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. Emergency Medical Service Delays Dr. Swann: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Is it any wonder that Albertans have lost co nfidence in this Tory government over their mismanagement of health care? The government can’t even get its story straight on whether it will proceed with an indepen d- ent investigation by the Health Quality Council affecting 322 patients who received compro mised emergency room care.

The Premier now says that he’s open to allowing the Health Quality Council to investigate serious medical issues on their own, yet the minister of health continues to stonewall. To the Premier: how can Albertans have any faith in this government when at least two ministers and the Premier himself were directly aware of these 322 cases? Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I said that I’d never close the door on any matter to be reviewed by the Health Quality Council when it comes to improving health care delivery and pe r- formance, and that does include waiting times in the emergency rooms. Dr. Swann: Well, Mr.

Speaker, will the Premier allow the Health Quality Council to independently investigate these 322 cases? Yes or no? Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, yesterday, of course, in speaking to the issues that were raised, I was very clear that some of the all e- gations made against third-party members that are not members of this House: there was no substantial evidence tabled in the House,

262 Alberta Hansard March 9, 2011 so we are not going to proceed with those. Anything that we can do to improve the confidence of Albertans in our health system, we will continue to do. Dr. Swann: I guess one would have to ask, Mr. Speaker: what is the Premier afraid of? Why will you not allow the Health Quality Council, which has a direct mandate to investigate patient quality? After three years, Mr. Premier, what is holding you back? Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, after yesterday, of course, we have one doctor in this Assembly that’s accusing doctors of taking hush money.

Another doctor in this Assembly accused our Alberta doc- tors of malpractice. I am here to support our doctors, and we will do whatever we can to ensure that Albertans have confidence in the Alberta health care system. The Speaker: Second Official Opposition main question. The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. Dr. Swann: For the record, Mr. Speaker, I was accusing the go v- ernment of malpractice, not the physicians.

Today the AMA’s Paul Parks flatly refuted the Premier’s spin that the Alberta Health Services internal review and its employee code of conduct will help get to the bottom of 322 cases of co m- promised care. Dr. Paul Parks said this: The picture is being painted of an open, friendly environment to come forward wit h our concerns. That is not accurate. There is a subtle culture of dissuading any kind of discussion on health care. End quote.

How can the Premier continue to ignore a growing chorus of experts, including nurses, who believe a culture of fear and intimida tion is contributing to the crisis in health care today? Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, I also said yesterday in reply to a number of questions that we are moving on everything that ER docs told us and advised us about some months ago.

One is to open more cont inuing care spaces, appropriate care for seniors that happen to be in acute -care beds; increasing the number of nurses, and we are firmly committed to increase that number by 2,000 by 2012; and also increasing up to 370 physician spaces in the province of Alberta. That is a substantial gain on what we committed to, and we’ll continue to do that. Dr. Swann: I’m talking about the freedom to speak in this province, Mr. Premier. Will you agree along with many health professionals that the Alberta Health Services code of conduct is a publicity ploy?

It does absolutely nothing to address compromised patient care. Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, all physicians take an oath, and I’m sure part of that oath is a duty to be responsible for their patients. Also, the Alberta Health Services policy is very clear that they have a duty to report to Alberta Health Services any issues that may question the delivery of health care to any one individual in this province. That is the duty. Dr.

Swann: Will the Premier finally do the right thing for all A l- bertans, for health professionals, and for patients and call an independent investigation through the Health Quality Council? After three years. Three hundred and twenty -two cases. We’ve said it over and over again. You know what we’re talking about. Mr. Stelmach: I think I just heard the hon. member ask us now to do a review of the Alberta Health Quality Council. Just earlier he asked us to have the Health Quality Council do the review, so I’m a little disconcerted in terms of what he actually means. Here’s the thing, Mr. Speaker.

Six in 10 Albertans say that health care is in crisis. Six in 10 also are very confident that when they need health care delivery in this province, it’s going to be there. We’ve also seen substantial improvement. Since 2004 at 40- some per cent to 50-some per cent, now 62 per cent of Albertans have confidence in their health system. The Speaker: Third Official Opposition main question. The hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview. Villa Caritas Geriatric Mental Health Facility Dr.

Taft: The Auditor General has reported serious concerns in writing about the conversion of Villa Caritas from long -term care to a psychiatric facility. With news of a tragic death at the facility the health minister’s glib response was: I didn’t design the facility; why don’t you ask the Infrastructure minister? So to the Infr a- structure minister: given that the minister of health is shirking his responsibility, are the reversals, problems, and huge cost overruns of this project your department’s fault? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Danyluk: Well, thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

It is very much a tragic and unfortunate situation. The facility was rede s- igned for the needs of seniors with mental health issues, and the design changes were reviewed by mental h ealth experts, phys i- cians, and union reps. Dr. Taft: Well, to the same minister: given the sad irony that this redesign, as the minister says, cost taxpayers $40 million more than budget and we still ended up with a facility that’s unsafe for residents, will the Infrastructure minister tell us how much more money will be needed to make Villa Caritas safe for psychogeriat- ric patients? Mr. Danyluk: First of all, Mr.

Speaker, let me be very clear that the facility is safe. Secondly, I want to say to you that to change from a seniors’ facility to a mental health facility did not cost $40 million. I need to reiterate that we did have mental health experts, we had physicians, we had people of expertise looking at the r e- vised changes. The Speaker: The hon. member. Dr. Taft: Thanks, Mr. Speaker.

Given that this minis ter appar- ently is responsible for the construction and design of the facility, was he aware of the concerns for safety that were brought to the attention of the operator of the facility just a couple of months ago? Was he aware of those? Mr. Danyluk: Well, Mr. Speaker, I need to say to you that Infr a- structure was involved in the late stages. As I said before, the design changes were reviewed by experts. They were also sent to us to review the design plans as well. Mr. Speaker, I again say to you that any t ime that we do have a tragedy or we do a review, we definitely look at safety.

We make sure that all facilities are safe. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Glenmore. Emergency Medical Service Delays (continued) Mr. Hinman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. T his current government from the Premier right down to MLA 67 continues to undermine the public’s confidence in our health care system by failing to allow a public inquiry. Morale amongst our health care workers is

March 9, 2011 Alberta Hansard 263 a major concern. Dr. Parks’ call for a pro cess where immunity for people who come forward is needed because of punitive actions taken on health care workers in the past. Does the Premier not understand that his refusal to open this inquiry only adds to the doubt and speculation that there is a major cover-up? Mr. Stelmach: Mr.

Speaker, again to the hon. member I said that all of those allegations that were made in this House against third - party members that have no way of defending themselves we’re not going to chase because there was nothing that was presented in this House that was any credible evidence.

In terms of the issues tied to health quality, confidence in the system, I’ve always had the door open to do the review and ensure that the steps that we’re taking as the government – the substantial investment that we’ve made in health, the five- year funding com- mitment, the only one of its kind in the country of Canada – make sure that this money is going to good use. 2:00 Mr. Hinman: Mr. Speaker, we didn’t say to chase after innuen- dos. We said to open up an inquiry, to give immunity.

Given that this Premier and the health minister insist the system is working great, that whistle -blowers aren’t being silenced, that there is no basis for allegations of hush money or a cover -up, and that the Premie r is stating himself that he just wants to see this issue die, shouldn’t they be eager for a full public inquiry to clear their names? Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, allow me to quote, please. Today Dr. Cowell, who is a member of the Health Quality Council and is the chair, said this, and I quote. The allegations are very serious. There’s no question about it. Dr.

Sherman is saying there’s up to 250 people that died on a waiting list. He needs to provide further evidence that this is, in fact, true. Right now they’re allegations. We would need to see some factual evidence. End of quote. The Speaker: Hopefully, the documentation will be tabled later. The hon. member from the third party, please. Mr. Mason: I have a point of order. The Speaker: Okay. Proceed. Mr. Hinman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Given this Premier’s r e- luctance to investigate this situation, are Albertans to conclude that he is afraid of what this investigation would bring to light?

They need to open up the investigation to clear this up. They can’t keep declaring themselves innocent. Open up the inquiry. Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, I believe the answer I gave to the previous question deals with this situation appropriately. When it comes to quality of care, access, all of those areas that can be i n- vestigated and reviewed by the Health Quality Council to make sure that the money is going in the right direction, they will be able to do that. In terms of these allegations that were raised, we already heard very clearly a quote from the chair. The Speaker: The hon.

Member for Edmonton-Highlands - Norwood. Villa Caritas Geriatric Mental Health Facility (continued) Mr. Mason: Thanks very much, Mr. Speaker. This question is for the Minister of Infrastructure.

We were informed by staff that the occupancy risk a ssessment which is required for the Villa Caritas facility was not conducted in accordance with the occupational health and safety code, specifically 8(1), that “an employer must involve affected workers in the hazard assessment and in the co n- trol or elimination of the hazards identified.” I want to ask the minister why this was not done and why he is not taking respons i- bility for the fact that we are unable to provide . . . The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Danyluk: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think I was very clear before.

I did say that the expert committee that was in place, that looked at the redesigns involved my ministry to ask them their opinions and their input, and we did that. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Mason: Thanks very much, Mr. Speaker.

Given that Villa Caritas was not designed as a mental health facility, and given that a patient has died as a result of flaws in the design, and given that this minister of health forced Covenant Health to convert their long-term care facility into a psychiatr ic unit to justify the go v- ernment’s plans to close Alberta Hospital, will the minister stand up and accept responsibility, at least some responsibility, for this tragic situation? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, I stand by my view of Villa Car i- tas.

It is officially designated under the Alberta Mental Health Act as a location that can provide the type of services that geriatric mental health patients require. It’s on par in that respect with legal standing, the same way that the Alberta Hospital Edmonton is, or the same way that the Centennial Centre for Mental Health and Brain Injury in Ponoka is. There are over 300 staff members there. There are something like eight psychiatrists there and one general practitioner doctor, and they’re providing outstanding care. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Given that this Premier and his health minister were anxious to get credit for Villa Caritas at the self -congratulatory opening ceremonies this week, and given that the death of a patient has revealed serious concerns about the safety of the facility, how can the Premier and this mi n- ister now try to dodge responsibility when things go wrong? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, we were invited, as were other members. One of them is now a private member sitting there, from Edmonton-Meadowlark.

I don’t know why the hon. member who asked the question wasn’t invited, but if he would just go over there and have a look, I can tell you that enormous improvements have been made to upgrade it from wha t was intended to be a long-term care type of facility to what is now a fully accredited mental hospital: shatterproof glass, additional monitors in the TV hallways, better sightlines from the nursing station to the rooms, and I could go on. It’s an outstanding facility. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Currie. Emergency Medical Service Delays (continued) Mr. Taylor: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I mean, the essential piece of this puzzle, the essential theme of all the ques- tions asked so far today is that the people of Alberta have no idea who to trust and what to believe about the health care system they need to rely on. To the Premier: if the Premier is unwilling to call

264 Alberta Hansard March 9, 2011 for a public inquiry, how is the air supposed to clear, and how is the public supposed to understand the situation? Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, once again, the hon. member hasn’t said what area he wants investigated. Does he want to investigate those allegations that were made in the House or to open up the door and see if we can further have the Health Quality Council review the operations, see if the money that we have invested in the system, the changes we’ve made are actually doing what we wanted them to do, and that is to reduce waiting times?

That door is open to that but not to the other. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Taylor: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It’s good to hear that door is open because that is what I’m asking about. Again to the Premier. Dr. Lloyd Maybaum, the president the of Calgary & Area Physician’s Association, believes that an ind e- pendent inquiry is essential to restore public faith in the system.

For the sake of public confidence in health care – and yes, I know, the Premier and the health minister have talked about all the wo n- derful things tha t they’re doing to improve the system; the problem is just that people don’t believe it – will the Premier launch that independent inquiry? Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, in 2004 52 per cent of Albertans had confidence in the system. In 2006 we moved that up t o 58. In 2010, the last Health Quality Council review, it was 62 per cent. It is moving in the right direction.

I know we have a lot of work to do, but it’s certainly heading in the right direction, not going backwards. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Taylor: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Sixty -two per cent won’t get you into medical school. My final question is again to the Premier. In order to regain public trust in the health system, will you commit today to chan g- ing the mandate of the Health Qual ity Council of Alberta so as to allow them to independently launch investigations when they feel it’s necessary? Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, 62 per cent gets us elected. Thank you very much. The Speaker: The hon.

Member for Athabasca-Redwater, fo l- lowed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. [interjections] Athabasca-Redwater. [interjections] Athabasca-Redwater , you’ve been called three times. Student Loan Remissions Mr. Johnson: Sorry, Mr. Speaker. Alberta’s postsecondary st u- dents are already concerned about the level of debt they are accumulating to pay for their education. Some of them have even said that they don’t want to go to postsecondary because it will end up costing them too much in the end. My question is for the Minister of Advanced Education and Technology.

With loan amounts increasing, what is the minister doing to ensure that st u- dents are graduating with manageable debt and able to get a good start on their futures? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Weadick: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s great to answer this question today with the students in the House. This gover n- ment is really committed to trying to ensure that students’ loan amounts are maintained at the lowest possible amount.

To help them with this, last year we came o ut with the repayment assi s- tance plan, and this is to help any student who has a loan they simply cannot make the payments on. We’ll work with that st u- dent on an individual basis to ensure that they have an opportunity to pay. As well, we ensure that the rates for these remain low. Mr. Johnson: Again to the same minister, Mr. Speaker: why was the eligibility for loan remission limited to only students who complete their programs? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Weadick: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Completion has always been a requirement, but the definition of completion up until this year was that when someone quit a program, that was determined as completion. We have now changed that. We are trying to en- sure that tax dollars and the investment is properly done, so completion now means that a student completing a program would have the potential for remission for part of that loan. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Johnson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Maybe it’s the fault of the previous minister.

What about the students who have to leave their program early due to unforeseen circumstances and don’t get to finish their program? What does this say about the value of lear n- ing in Alberta and building a culture of lifelong learning? Mr. Weadick: Well, I’d like to tha nk the member. Actually, that is an important question. As long a learner comes back into the system, they’re always going to be eligible to have remission. We all know that there are opportunities when students have to leave a program for a while. It could be because of family requirements. It could be because of work requirements.

It’s critically important that we create flexibility, so if a learner comes back into the sy s- tem, they’ll be eligible for the remission. 2:10 Health Services Financial Reporting Mr. MacDonald: The Auditor General’s report last Oct o- ber indicated that Alberta Health Services found numerous errors in the way data was being processed from the ledgers of former health authorities, including Capital health. One error resulted in more than $500 million in misclassified expenses. Another r e- sulted in the omission of $420 million of expenses. My first question is to the minister of health.

How does the minister e x- plain these errors and expenses totalling $920 million? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, I’ll have to take a look at that and just see if it’s correct or not. I’m not familiar with the exact line that he’s talking about. When you’re looking after and are respon- sible for a budget of $15 billion, there are a lot of lines that you have to pay attention to. I can assure the member that I will have a look at that. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s obvious. To the minister: it’s on page 165, and I’m disappointed that you do not read the Auditor’s reports.

I’m going to read directly from it. The Auditor General states: “Transactions with Covenant Health were classified uniquely in Capital Health’s general ledger. This unique classification was not picked up by the topside ledger and a p-

March 9, 2011 Alberta Hansard 265 proximately $420 million of expenses were omitted.” My question is: can the minister explain why these expenses were omitted? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, I could assure the House and I could assure all Albertans: I do read what the Auditor General says. I just don’t memorize i t all. However, I will take a look at that, and I will get the member an answer. He should know that he could bring it forward as a written question. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again to the same minister: is this unique classification, as described by the office of the Auditor General, of the omission of $420 million of expenses an example of one organization with two sets of books? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, I hardly think so. The fact is that whatever the numbers, they are fully audited, they are fully avai l- able to the public, and I’ll get him some more details if that’s what he wants. He chairs Public Accounts or he used to chair it.

He should know that there is a process to access that level of detail, but since he doesn’t know how to do that or has forgotten how to do it, I’ll do it for him. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-North Hill, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-Buffalo. Tuition Fee Policy Mr. Fawcett: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Many high school st u- dents in my constituency are starting to apply to postsecondary institutions for the fall, and some of them have been contacting my office, asking if this government has abandoned its commi t- ment to predictable and affordable tuition at our postsecondary institutions.

For students and for parents who are fearful that they will not be able to help their children, this is a real concern. My questions are to the Minister of Advanced Education and Tec h- nology. Can the minister assure these students, my cons tituents, and their parents that the tuition fee policy will remain in place? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Weadick: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to assure this member and his constituents that we are absolutely committed to the tuition cap polic y in this province. That cap: any increases are set to the rate of inflation. We’re going to stick by that this year.

That is .35 per cent, or approximately $20 per student. That’ll be the increase, and you can make sure that your parents and students are aware of that. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Fawcett: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. How is the minister going to balance the need for postsecondary institutions to generate the revenue required to offer the high-quality programs demanded by students with the need to ensure affordability and accessibility of these programs for all? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Weadick: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker.

That remains the balance that we always work to include, to make sure that the programs are affordable for the students, that they’re accessible to the students, but that we can maintain the quality that we must have. Our stu dents demand programs that provide quality, and that’s what we do. The tuition cap to this point has continued to provide a high- quality education at an affordable rate for our st u- dents. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Fawcett: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My final supplemental to the same minister: will the minister prevent the institutions from going around the tuition cap policy by changing so-called noni n- structional fees? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Weadick: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. We’ve heard many co n- cerns from students about the noninstructional fees, and we also are very concerned about that issue. We don’t believe that noni n- structional fees should be a way to simply increase tuitions. The students in the province have a very good working relationship and have come up with some options where we may be able to manage this.

We’re working with them, and I believe we’ll have a solution for that. ESL Funding Mr. Hehr: Mr. Speaker, you’ll be happy to know that I won’t be asking questions today about the county of Barrhead using ta x- payers’ dollars to send people to an event organized by the local Barrhead Progressive Conservative association. Instead, I listened to the advice of the Justice minister and will forward these co n- cerns to Elections Alberta. My question today is for the Minister of Education.

Given that high school completion rates are 10 points lower for typical ESL students, how will cutting supports for students with the greatest language problems help them earn a high school diploma? The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Education. Mr. Hancock: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It was unfortunate that we had to show some restraint in the Education budget this year, and one of those restraints was the enhanced ESL program. That grant has been in place for six years.

It was originally put in place in order to help those jurisdictions that had a particular type of immigrant coming in with extra problems to learn how to deal with those problems. In the six years we hope they have le arned how to do that and that they will be able to handle the needs of their ESL students within the regular grant, which is about $1,155 extra for each ESL student. Mr. Hehr: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I heard that explanation, but given that 70 per cent of all ESL students are not completing high school within three years, does it really look like the problem has been solved in the six years you’ve just emphasized? Mr. Hancock: Mr. Speaker, I would hazard to say that the pro b- lem that’s exhibited is not simply an English -language learning problem. There are a number of issues that we need to deal with in terms of the supports for students who come into the jurisdiction. We’ve been putting a lot of focus on wraparound services and other ways that we can support families.

I’ve asked my parliamen- tary assistant to work with some of those communities to actually help us discern how we can work with, particularly, the major school boards in the urban areas with respect to how to deal with those students. It’s not simply an English-language learning prob- lem. The Speaker: The hon. member.

266 Alberta Hansard March 9, 2011 Mr. Hehr: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Given that the largest thing, from my point of view, that ESL students would need would be English-language training, why are you cutting this part of the budget and emphasizing these other wraparound services? Give them the English training they need. Mr. Hancock: Mr. Speaker, in fact, we do. We’ve supported Eng- lish-language learning significantly and continue to support it significantly. It is the enhanced grant, the extra, I think, $405 per student for a certain segment of those students that has been cut.

That particular grant has been cut because, as I say, it was put in place for a specific purpose, and that was to help school boards discern the better methods that they needed in order to help those students learn. In the six years we hope that that’s been acco m- plished. Now, those students are still being funded not only with the per student grant but with the supplemental English -language learning grant of . . . The Speaker: The hon. Member for Leduc -Beaumont-Devon, followed by the hon. Member for Fort McMurray-Wood Buffalo. Abandoned Gas Well in Calmar Mr. Rogers: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The town of Calmar is located 10 minutes west of the city of Leduc, where I reside. Last year a capped gas well drilled many years ago by Imperial Oil was found to be leaking within a new Calmar residential subdivision, causing the relocation of five homes and families. To the Minister of Energy: why is it not required that the ERCB notify the town of Calmar of the location of abandoned wells prior to subdivision approval? Mr. Liepert: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I know that earlier this week the Minister of Municipal Affairs in response to a question from the MLA for Drayton Valley-Calmar stated that his ministry and the ERCB are working together to amend regulations to ensure that abandoned wells and pipelines are identified before these ne w municipal developments occur. The ERCB does have a land de- velopment information package available, but the onus is really on the municipality to inquire before they permit a development. The ERCB is not aware of every development that is proposed or ta k- ing place in the province. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr.

Rogers: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again to the same mini s- ter: how is your department or the ERCB ensuring that industry is fairly compensating the affected homeowners who’ve had to sell their homes for the well to be properly abandoned? These people are not at fault. Why should they face potential losses on the sale of their home? Mr. Liepert: Well, under existing legislation, Mr. Speaker, the ERCB does not become involved in matters of compensation. In cases like this it is really the responsibility of the company in- volved to provide the compensation.

It is my understanding that Municipal Affairs has either offered or is involved in mediation. It’s mediation with only one homeowner. Four of the five hom e- owners have resolved the issue. 2:20 The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Rogers: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again to the same mini s- ter: what role do the departments of Energy or Municipal Affairs have in ensuring that the remaining residents in the crescent are treated fairly while this abandonment takes place? Mr. Liepert: Well, I can only comment relative to the Depar t- ment of Energy, Mr. Speaker. The ERCB reports through the Department of Energy.

The Energy Resources Conservation Board is responsible for r egulating safe, responsible development of Alberta’s resources and is also responsible for ensuring that the company’s technical and public safety plans are followed. That being said, there’s no question that there will be inconve n- iences in the neighbourhood as this remediation takes place. In situations like this I would suggest that it’s incumbent on all the participants to work together to resolve the issue, and that includes the town of Calmar. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Fort McMurray -Wood Buffalo, followed by the hon.

Member for Calgary-Varsity. Emergency Medical Service Delays (continued) Mr. Boutilier: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. We just heard the Premier of Alberta say that he only cares about the health of 62 per cent of Albe rtans so his party can get elected. It’s obvious why the Premier wants the issue of health care to die given this government’s incompetence in managing health care. To the mi n- ister of health: have you been instructed by your party’s boss, the Premier, to kill this issue, and is that why you are refusing to call in the Health Quality Council to investigate emergency rooms? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr.

Speaker, this is a member who brings shame to himself and to other members of this House by misrepre- senting a statement like that. The Premier said nothing of the kind, and he knows it. He should be called to order and immediately asked to retract it. With respect to the other question, I said, “No, not at this time,” but at the appropriate time I will take appropriate a ctions if neces- sary. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Boutilier: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The health minister doesn’t want this issue to die – and I applaud him for that – unlike the Premier, so they’re in conflict.

He told the Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar yesterday that he would, quote, find exactly what budget line legal fees are included in. To the minister of health: have you found out how much of these legal fees were for settlements? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, it’s common practice when people come and go from jobs that sometimes they have contracts that are bought out early and that some severance pay might be given. That’s precisely what happened in the case of some of the CEOs. As you know, we had 12 CEOs. We brought it down to one. That meant curtailing some of those agreements early.

The allegations that were made yesterday by the Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar – well, there weren’t really allegations, but there were some insinuations there – just pointed out the fact that he didn’t fully understand what one -time payments were, and I tried to clarify that. We’re looking for more detail because it really is a question for Motions for Returns. I’ll do the best I can to get him the detail he needs. Mr. Boutilier: The minister thought it was a good quest ion yes- terday. Now he’s saying that today it’s not a good question.

March 9, 2011 Alberta Hansard 267 Given the awkward position that the minister of health is in, that his boss wants the issue to die, the minister needs to answer first to Albertans, not to the Premier. Will you stop putting your party’s boss ahead of Albertans and get Albertans the answers that they are demanding in this Assembly? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, let’s be very clear. What the Pr e- mier indicated yesterday was one set of answers for one set of allegations.

What he also said was that he would do whatever was necessary to restore some public trust because of some of the all e- gations made in this House. If that requires me doing something to support that, I will be there to support the Premier, and I’ll be there to support Albertans asking the questions. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Varsity. Workplace Safety Mr. Chase: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday in this Assembly the Minister of Employment and Immigration asked how much more proof Albertans required to believe that worker safety in this province is improving. The answer, unfortunately, is a lot.

To the minister: given that this government completed only 11 workplace safety prosecutions last year compared to 47 in Saskatchewan, when is our Alberta labo ur minister going to get serious about the prosecution of safety offenders? Or is his reluctance due to resi s- tance from elsewhere in the government? Mr. Lukaszuk: Mr. Speaker, the number of prosecutions depicts the number of violations. If our Crown prosecutors have no basis on which to prosecute, they don’t prosecute. If in one province there are more murder prosecutions, that means they have more murders.

This is not a competition for who has more prosecutions. I’d rather have zero prosecutions. That means there are no violations. Mr. Chase: Mr. Speaker, a race to death and injury certainly isn’t a competition, but Alberta has more workplace injuries and deaths per population than the majority of other provinces. If the minister favours more transparency i n occupational health and safety, will he tell us how many workplace safety cases his department fo r- warded to the Department of Justice last year with a recommendation to prosecute? Are you saying . . . The Speaker: Okay. We’ve had three

preambles. We’re not su p- posed to have any. Mr. Lukaszuk: Mr. Speaker, if you want to talk about transpa r- ency, you would be glad to know that Alberta is the only province in Canada if not in North America that actually has a full onli ne, free-of-charge disclosure of the occupational health and safety record of virtually every employer in this province. So get on the computer, look up your employers, and you’ll see exactly what their safety track records are. Only in Alberta. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Chase: Thank you.

Given that the minister told the Calgary Herald that he would speak with the former Minister of Justice about increasing the number of workplace safety prosecutors, does that not indicate, to the minister’s credit, that he was and is dissat- isfied with the resources available for handling OHS cases in the Department of Justice? Mr. Lukaszuk: Mr. Speaker, this minister and the Minister of Justice are in constant communication.

However, one thing – one thing – Albertans should be assured of is that neither this minister nor any other minister of this government is in any collusion with the Minister of Justice, telling our Crown prosecutors whom to prosecute and whom not to prosecute. They make that decision based on evi dence, and they choose whom they should or should not be prosecuting. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Bonnyville -Cold Lake , fo l- lowed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. Water Quality Monitoring in the Oil Sands Mrs. Leskiw: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This week the gover n- ment received the final report from the Water Monitoring Data Review Committee, set up in the fall of 2010 to examine oil sands environmental monitoring work from Alberta Environment, Dr. Schindler, and his colleagues. My question, in fac t all three que s- tions are to the same minister, the Minister of Environment. Given that the academic work relied on methods which differed from those used by the government studies and made strong concl u- sions regarding the water quality in the oil sands re gion, what was learned from these studies? Mr. Renner: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the work of doctors Kelly and Schindler identified monitoring techniques that, frankly, are worth consideration. The report also made it very clear that sweeping conclusions cannot be based on the available data, either by the government or by the university studies. We need to recognize and monitor the adverse effects rather than just monitoring the thres h- old levels. That is what we intend to incorporate into our future plans for monitoring. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mrs. Leskiw: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Since we’ve heard about the government multidecade, long -term commitment to monito r- ing in the oil sands region but this report highlights a needed enhancement to the overall focus of monitoring efforts, how is the minister ensuring th at the government’s environmental manag e- ment efforts are based upon the overall impact to any ecosystem rather than simply inputs? Mr. Renner: Mr. Speaker, that’s precisely what we’ve been talk- ing about in the development of the cumulative effects environmental management scheme, where we concentrate on outcomes rather than constantly concentrating on inputs.

In the past it’s been a site -by-site monitoring system that hasn’t taken into account, to the extent that perhaps we could, the overall i m- pact on the environment. That is the scope and scale that we intend to develop in the new world-class monitoring system. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mrs. Leskiw: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Because the oil sands are an important provincial and national resource and many of my constituents benefit from this industry, how will this minister e n- sure the continued credibility of oil sands developments? Mr. Renner: Well, Mr.

Speaker, we’re working very closely with Environment Canada to improve the monitoring. One of the areas that was very clear that came out of the report that I read this week was that we need a more co -ordinated approach. We can’t have water monitoring going on in one area, air monitoring going on in another area, biodiversity monitoring going on in another area, and not combine the strategy behind all of them. That’s why we’ve asked the panel to put together a co-ordinated approach that deals with all media from one central monitoring body.

268 Alberta Hansard March 9, 2011 The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre , followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-Hays. 2:30 Gender Equality Ms Blakeman: Thanks very much, Mr. Speaker. In 2007 the Premier’s Blue Ribbon Panel on government agen cies reco m- mended that appointments should reflect the people of Alberta, 52 per cent of which are women, and should use a transparent, non- partisan, and competence-based process. But when I quickly checked, there were zero women of nine on Alberta Capital F i- nance Authority, two women of 13 on Environmental Appeals, two women of nine on Alberta Innovates.

To the minister of f i- nance: would the minister agree that the government could look a little harder to find qualified women to sit on government age n- cies, board, and commissions? Mr. Snelgrove: Mr. Speaker, first, I do want to apologize to the hon. member for yesterday because I did not anticipate questions that I think would have been more celebratory of the hundred years of success women have had. We do us e a competence-based approach to boards we are es- tablishing. In the Alberta government, Mr. Speaker, 67 per cent of our employees are women; 47 per cent of them are in management positions.

We are working towards equality, and we’re striving very hard to get that. Ms Blakeman: A little harder on the agencies, boards, and co m- missions. To the same minister: it’s nearly two years since the Alberta Public Agencies Governance Act was passed, so why has it not yet come into force? Mr. Snelgrove: Mr. Speaker, we have a lot of different respons i- bilities from the government’s boards and agencies, and they have special tasks.

We talk about the need to have specific abilities on those boards, so while we transform and we’ve moved into a co n- sistent process for evaluati ng membership to it, we are still only able to process people that apply to be on the boards. So if there’s a question or if I can ask her consideration, encourage very cap a- ble women that she knows to put their names forward, and then we can at least deal with their applications. The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Blakeman: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Thank you for that.

I will certainly follow through on it, and I will also throw the gauntlet down to the minister of finance because I want him to agree to champion increased appointments of competent, skilled women to government agencies, boards, and commissions. He’s a well-respected, leading member of that front bench. Will he agree to champion this? Mr. Snelgrove: How can I say anything? Seriously, Mr. Speaker and hon. member, absolutely. Not only will I do it, but I can gua r- antee you that all of our government will do it, and I know you will help. We all agree on the same thing. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon.

Member for Calgary -Hays, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview. Transportation for the Disabled in Calgary Mr. Johnston: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Both provincial and municipal governments in Alberta are well known for providing supports to persons with disabilities. In the past couple of weeks I’ve seen labour negotiations between the Calgary HandiBus A s- sociation and the Amalgamated Transit Union local 583 come to a halt. My questions are all for the Minister of Employment and Immigration. Can the minister please tell us the status of these negotiations? Mr. Lukaszuk: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I’ll be glad to. As you may know, on December 31 of just this last year the collective bargain- ing agreement between the Calgary HandiBus employer and employees came to an end. I know that the union has met on a number of occasions with the employer. On March 2 they held a vote to strike, and I believe that the day for strike has been set now for Friday, March 11. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Johnston: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the same minister: what impact would a strike have on the Calgarians using these services? Mr. Lukaszuk: Well, Mr. Speaker, the impact obviously will be immense.

Let’s just put it in perspective. First of all, this particular service provider provides transportation services throughout Ca l- gary for the most vulnerable residents of Calgary. Those would be persons with di sabilities and others who require daily rides. Fur- thermore, just imagine. They provide approximately 40,000 trips per month. That’s a large number of the population to very impor- tant points of destination, so any form of disruption to those services will obviously have a negative, adverse effect from many perspectives on those who rely on the service. Mr. Johnston: My final question.

Given the nature of the services provided, what options does the province have to ensure that this invaluable service is not disrupted? Mr. Lukaszuk: Well, Mr. Speaker, ideally, I would like to see the two parties come to a negotiated agreement. It is always better when two parties compromise their positions and find a mutually palatable solution. It seems like it’s difficult at this point for those two parties to do that. I certainly hope that both parties keep the value of the service that they provide to those vulnerable clients in mind.

However, our labour code allows the minister to utilize a number of tools, and ultimately I can tell you this, hon. member. My number one priority always will be vulnerable Calgarians that rely on that service day in, day out for very important purposes. Noninstructional Postsecondary Fees Dr. Taft: Mr. Speaker, my questions are for the Minist er of A d- vanced Education and Technology. Given the question earlier this afternoon about mandatory noninstructional fees for postsecond- ary students, the minister indicated, it seemed, that he was confident that a solution would be found.

Well, I think he owes it to this Assembly and to students across Alberta to give some de- tails. Exactly what solution is in the works? Mr. Weadick: Well, thank you to the member for that question. We’ve had discussions over the past year with student organiz a- tions, and clear ly the students, as people funding their education, should be involved in any decision on these instructional fees. What we’ve been discussing is a way that the students could be involved in supporting or voting on any of these types of fees to ensure that they meet the needs of students. Dr. Taft: Mr.

Speaker, it sounds like the minister is putting the

March 9, 2011 Alberta Hansard 269 solution onto the students. If they had the power, they’d be happy to implement it, so let’s see if they will get the power. Is this min- ister considering binding votes by students on any proposals from postsecondary institutions to charge mandatory noninstructional fees? Mr. Weadick: At this point that is an issue that has come forward by the students as acceptable to them to be involved in. The ideal way is not to do it through regulation but to work with the instit u- tions and to create a partnership between the institutions and the students.

We’re going to work together with our institutions and students to create an environment where the students can be i n- volved in the decision. Dr. Taft: Mr. Speaker, that was a pretty evasive answer, so let’s try something else. Will the minister at least use his authority as a minister of the Crown to ban the practice of some institutions of charging mandatory fees that pro vide zero additional services? Will he ban that? Mr. Weadick: Mr. Speaker, at this point I haven’t had any of those types of fees come forward that provide zero service or qual- ity for the students.

We haven’t had any of those come forward, but there is som e question about the value and whether or not there is true value to the students for some of the fees that they have seen. Agricultural Research Mr. Drysdale: Mr. Speaker, as the world population continues to rise, so does the global demand for food whil e land and resources available for agricultural production continue to decrease. My question is to the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development.

With agricultural exports being such an important part of our economy, what is the minister doing to addre ss the challenge of feeding a growing global population? The Speaker: Stick to Alberta. That would be helpful. Go ahead. Mr. Hayden: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I will stick to Alberta. Because we export 80 per cent of what we produce, the world is our customer. By 2050, as an example, we are going to be requi r- ing our producers to produce twice as much as they are today, so we’re investing in research to get that production. Gentec is one.

We’ve got two studies right now in research projects that are ha p- pening. The other is Phytola at the University of Alberta. We’re looking, of course, towards increasing production but also quality. The Alberta Livestock and Meat Agency, as an example, has i n- vested $1.5 million in the Gentec project. Mr. Drysdale: Again to the same minister: how will these initia- tives benefit Alberta’s livestock and oilseed industries? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Hayden: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The genomic r e- search with respect to the livestock sector has advantages for us environmentally but also production increases. We’re talking i n- creases in quality and quantity with respect to both dairy products and also beef products. With respect to the research in the oilseed sector right now 43 per cent of a canola seed is oil. Through the work that we’re doing now and the research that we’re doing, if we can increase by 1 per cent that oil, we’ll be looking at ab out an extra $9 million just in that sector in Alberta alone. 2:40 Mr.

Drysdale: My final question is to the Minister of Advanced Education and Technology. What other types of agricultural r e- search is your ministry supporting? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Weadick: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m pleased to say that Alberta Innovates: Bio Solutions provides a broad range of agricultural research. One really exciting piece of research I’d like to highlight today is the prion research that we’re doing in an i- mals, especially after the BSE crisis.

What we’re finding is that research in livestock is now starting to provide some answers to human health issues around Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s disease. It’s really an interesting area of crossover, where re search into livestock health is now providing some answers for human health as well. The Speaker: Hon. members, that concludes the Oral Question Period. Eighteen members were recognized today, with 108 que s- tions and responses. We’ll continue the Routine with Tabling Returns and Reports in 15 seconds from now. head: Tabling Returns and Reports (continued) The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Varsity.

Mr. Chase: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have three sets of tablings. The first is a set of informational pamphlets from the Association for the Rehabilitation of the Brain Injured, that I referenced in my member’s statement. My second tabling, Mr. Speaker, is from Vecova. Vecova is the new branding name for what has been formerly known for the last 43 years as the Vocational and Rehabilitation Research Institute in Calgary-Varsity, which has been providing service for both able and disabled individuals. My last set of tablings, Mr. Speaker, has to do with concerns over the Castle-Crown.

They are from Douglas Brown, S.J. Harri- oson, Mae Stolte, Lisbeth Mousseau, Alan To, Robert Laing, Frances Reynolds, Jess Harding, Trudy Baker, Colleen Campbell, David Fulton, Sarah Hutc hison, Thomasine Irwin, Brad Jones, Sarah Elmeligi, Janice Ryan, Beverly Kaltenbruner, Bob Bo r- reson, Jim Patterson, Marc van Sluys, Catherine Gill, Roberta Olenick, James Harlick, Alan Chomica, and Yvonne Ellingson. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Meadowlark. Dr. Sherman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d just like to table five copies of a letter from Gerald Foster. He’s a constituent of the hon.

Member for Leduc -Beaumont-Devon. Throughout this ca n- cer issue, he said in his lett er, he had to wait at least three months, so he actually had to go down to Vancouver and purchase health care. He said: I’m the president of a company. But what I’m really concerned about . . . The Speaker: That would be fine. You’ve tabled it. Dr. Sherman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. head: Tablings to the Clerk The Clerk: I wish to advise the House that the following doc u-

270 Alberta Hansard March 9, 2011 ment was deposited with the office of the Clerk: on behalf of the hon. Mr. Snelgrove, Minister of Finance and Enterprise, pursuant to the Alberta Economic Developm ent Authority Act the Alberta Economic Development Authority activity report 2010. The Speaker: Well, hon. members, three points of order today, so we’ll start with the first one . Hon. Member for Edmonton- Highlands-Norwood, quotations of documents would be very helpful. Point of Order Referring to a Member by Name Mr. Mason: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I am refer- ring to House of Commons Pr ocedure and Practice, second edition, 2009,

chapter 13, rules of order and decorum. “The Speaker will not allow a Member to refer to another Member by name even if the Member speaking is quoting from a document such as a newspaper article.” During question period the Premier specifically referred by name to the Member for Edmonton- Meadowlark. I think that should ha ve been dealt with, but it was not, and that is why I stood up to make a point of order. The Speaker: Fair game. I can deal with this. The member is absolutely correct.

The long-standing tradition in here is that members should not refer to othe r members by name, and abso- lutely the long-standing tradition is that one shouldn’t do indirectly what one can’t do directly. The Premier did quote, and I asked that the document be tabled. It hasn’t been tabled yet. We ’ve gone through the tablings. Gov- ernment House Leader, you might wa nt to look at that, please. As I understand it, the quote says: Today Dr. Cowell, who is a me mber of the Health Quality Council and is the chair, said this, and I quote. So I presume this is the quote. The allegations are very serious.

There’s no question about it. And then the name is put in. He could have said, I guess, “the Member for Edmonton-Meadowlark.” . . . is saying that there are up to 250 people that died on a wait- ing list. He needs to provide further evidence that this is, in fact, true. Right now they’re allegations. We would need to see some factual evidence. End of quote. Yes. I guess the only dilemma with respect to this is if it adds or takes away from the quote if the name is in there, but the member is right. Another member should not be referring to the name.

This has happened now on several days in this Assembly by members from various parts of the House, and it seems to always be in a unique circumstance, which this was. The bottom line is that the name should not have been mentioned. Absolutely correct, right to rise on a point of order. Clarification made. Tabling still to come. Okay. Number two. Government House Leader. Point of Order Questions about Detail Mr. Hancock: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise on a point of order with reference to a question that was raised by the Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar earlier today.

In essence my point of order is around raising questions in the House which ought to be raised either by written questions or in another forum. The citations that I would use would be Beauchesne’s 409(5), which reads, The matter ought to be of some urgency. There must be some present value in seeking the information during the Question Period rather than through the Order Paper or through corre- spondence with the Minister or the department.

And 408(1)(e), that such questions should not be of a nature which would require a lengthy and detailed answer, and the House of Commons Pr ocedure and Practice, page 504, which provides that it should not request a detailed response which could be dealt with more ap- propriately as a written question placed on the Order Paper. In essence, Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member was raising ques- tions, pulling out budget documents or other documents, quoting from a specific line – now, as he held up the document, you could see that that document was a si gnificant number of pages – and making the assumption for the public and others watching that the minister of health ought to have memorized all those lines and ought to be able to provide a detailed response to a detailed ques- tion.

Clearly, in our orders of procedure there are places for those sorts of questions, and Written Questions and Motions for Returns are specific opportunities for that type of question. As well, in our practice, I think, the rules that I just read from Beauchesne’s and from the House of Commons Procedure and Practice would suggest that where you’re asking for a detailed response, it might be more appropriate just to write a letter to the minister as opposed to trying to grandstand in the House.

One of the most important pieces that should be referenced by this House under this point of orde r is that the member asking the question is, in fact, the chairman of the Public Accounts Commit- tee, and he knows full well where those types of questions can be brought up. If it’s a matter of a current budget issue, it should be raised in the House during discussion in the Committee of Supply or in the policy field committee during discussion of estimates.

If it’s with respect to a prior year ’s accounts, the Public Accounts Committee is the appropriate plac e for those questions to be raised, and the hon. member, as chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, ought to know that. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar on this point of order. Mr. MacDonald: Yes. This is quite an interesting point of order if you could call it that, Mr. Speaker. Now, certainly, the first thing I would like to say to the Government House Leader – and he should know this – is that the government majority which sits on the Public Accounts Committee is now setting the agenda.

I would love to have the ministry of heal th come frequently to Public Ac- counts, but that is no longer possible because last year we changed those rules. Now, I certainly would like to say that I was clear when I asked the question of the minister of health, and I was clear in my open- ing

preamble, Mr. Speaker, that the Auditor General’s report last October indicated that Alberta Health Services found numerous errors in the way data was being processed from the ledgers of former health authorities, including Capital health. This isn’t a budget document. This is the Auditor General’s report from October 2010, which should be required reading for each and every hon. member of this Assembly. For the Govern- ment House Leader to say that this is an obscure budget document or a big budget document is untrue.

That is untrue because this is required reading for every member of the Assembly. 2:50 Certainly, the hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview used the same report in a question previous to me today to ask the Infra- structure minister about Villa Ca ritas, and there was no problem with that from the hon. Government House Leader. He didn’t have a problem with my colleague asking the question, so I think I

March 9, 2011 Alberta Hansard 271 should be given every opportunity to ask questions about the Au- ditor General’s report. I have an obligation. It’s not grandstanding, as the hon. member indicated. In fact, this point of order, one could conclude, may be grandstanding on the hon. member’s behalf. Certainly, I have every right to ask questions from the Auditor General’s report I’m going to quote, in conclusion, Mr. Speaker, from Beauchesne 409(6). “A question must be within the administrative competence of the Government.

The Minister to whom the ques- tion is directed is responsible to the House for his or her present Ministry and not for any decisions taken in a previous portfolio.” This question certainly had to do with the recent financial state- ments and the recent report from the Auditor General. Beauchesne 410(5) goes on to say, “The primary purpose of the Question Period is the seeking of information and calling the Government to account.” That’s ex actly what I was trying to do. I didn’t get any answers. Again, 410( 6), Mr.

Speaker: “The greatest possible freedom should be given to Members consistent with other rules and practices.” I can’t understand why anyone would try to exclude the use of this Auditor General’s report or any of his previous reports from examination in this House during question period. Thank you. The Speaker: Okay. I’m quite prepared to deal with this matter as well. This is the point of order raised by the Government House Leader. First of all, a bit of information: the Minister of Health and Wellness is scheduled to app ear before Public Accounts on May 11 of this year. That has been scheduled.

Gee, when I was listening to all of this and I was paying atten- tion to all of this, I thought that this point of order would have to do, basically, with the phrase, “I’m disappointed that you do not read the Auditor’s reports.” That kind of phraseology was a cast- ing of aspersions upon another member, but the Minister of Health and Wellness has made it very, very clear that he did. Certainly, he’s got a photographic-type memory, so he remembered that as well. The Auditor General’s report is fair game in this House.

Ques- tions can be raised from the Auditor General’s report and should be dealt with and answered. Sometimes it gets a little technical. Sometimes the Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar is a bit pedant ic in his questions, and if he just eliminated the

preambles in his second and third questions, we probably wouldn’t have points of or der raised with respect to that. So this is not a point of order that I’m going to spend any more time entertaining. We’re all going to move on, an d we’re all going to learn from this that, number one, the Minist er of Health and Wellness will appear before the Public Acc ounts Committee on May 11. Done. The chairman knows now. Number two, the Auditor General’s report is fair game, any questions coming out of the Auditor General’s report.

Let’s try and keep it at the policy level rather than specific – you know, the dollar, dollar, dollar figures – because that can surely be dealt with in the Public Accounts Committee ra ther than this Assembly. If we stick to policy and no preamb les in the second or third ques- tions, we won’t have these kind of details to have to deal with. Okay. Let’s move on to number three now. The Government House Leader. Mr. Hancock: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That was precisely my point, that the pedantics and the dollar figures and the specifics were for Public Accounts. Obviously, policy is for here.

That was not what the hon. Member for Fort McMurray-Wood Buffalo was dealing with when he blatantly mischaracterized what the Premier had just said in res ponse to a question, when he said that the Premier only cares about the health of 62 per cent of Al- bertans. Every member in the House was a witness to what the Premier had said and what the hon. Member for Fort McMurray- Wood Buffalo said. It was an absolute, blatant misrepresentation of what the Premier just said.

However, I don’t believe I need to raise a point of order on it now because the hon. minister of health dealt with it quite succinctly in his response. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health and Wellness did deal with that. This would have been a point of order, and I would have asked for a retraction from the Member for Fort McMurray-Wood Buffalo. I’ve got the readings of both of them, both Hansards, in front of me, and that’s not at all what one member said, that an- other member said that he said. That would’ve been dealt with, but we’re finished with that one now. Yes, sir. Mr.

Anderson: I just wanted to respond. The Speaker: I looked. Nobody responded. Sorry. It’s already dealt with. Mr. Anderson: I’d like to make a defence on the part of my col- league, but that’s all right. The Speaker: I’m sorry, sir. I looked. You didn’t move. I looked to see people stand, and I was star ting to talk already. We’ve dealt with this one. Mr. Anderson: Okay. head: Orders of the Day head: Committee of Supply [Mr.

Mitzel in the chair] The Deputy Chair: Hon. members, I’d like to call the Committee of Supply to order. head: Main Estimates 2011-12 Energy The Deputy Chair: Hon. minister, do you wish to speak? Mr. Liepert: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’ll make a few opening comments if I could and then be happy to spend as much time as we can on an exchange back and forth. The Member for Calgary- Buffalo said that he wants to be educated, so we’ll make sure that we at least get him through grade school here today. Mr.

Chairman, before I start, I want to introduce some staff that will be assisting me today: my deputy minister, Peter Watson; I also have with us the chairman of the Energy Resources Conser- vation Board, Mr. Dan McFadyen, and the chairman of the Alberta Utilities Commission, Willie Grieve. We have additional staff in the gallery. Before I make some remarks, I’d just like to thank all of the staff from the vari ous sections of our department.

The year 2010 has certainly been a year of incredible progress in the area of the Department of Energy, and we owe a great deal of thanks as Albertans and as memb ers of the Assembly to a number of hardworking staff that we have in the Department of Energy. I’m here, as we all know, to pr esent the Minister of Energy’s business plan and budget for 2011-12. I want to start by saying

272 Alberta Hansard March 9, 2011 that our province is making a solid recovery from the global eco- nomic downturn, and as expected, we will have one of the strongest economies in North America as we move into 2011. Renewed activity in the oil and gas sector is leading that recovery. The final numbers for petroleum and natural gas land sales for the 2010-11 fiscal year are not yet complete, but I think it’s fair to say, Mr. Chairman, that the numbers will be very similar to what the calendar year 2010 delivered, and that’s somew here in the range of $2.3 billion to $2.4 billion.

That surpasses the previous record, which was set in 2005. It exceeds that previous record by half a billion dollars. Now, in Budget 2011 we’re forecasting revenues in the range of just over a billion dol lars. It’s hard to predict, but we want to e n- sure that we don’t overshoot this number. Obviously, as the year goes by, if those numbers show the same kind of strength as they did in 2010-11, we will revise them on our quarterly updates. 3:00 What those numbers mean is that land sales illustrate that A l- berta continues to be competitive in attracting new investment.

Its record sales also mean new jobs and new opportunities for indus- try. In 2010, Mr. Chairman, 17,000 full -time energy jobs were added in Alberta, and I can tell you that there’s a feeling of optim- ism and confidence in our sector in Alberta today. I want to spend a few minutes and look at some of the budget a- ry asks that we have before the committee today. Our operating spending for the Ministry of Energy with two exceptions is pretty much consistent with the previous year.

Of the approximately $445 million, $231 million is allocated to the Department of Ene r- gy, $175 million to the Energy Resources Conservation Board – I know that there is some int erest in knowing just how that budget breaks out, and I’d be happy to answer those questions – and $39 million for the Alberta Utilities Commission. The $83 million increase that’s forecasted in our department estimates this year is mainly attributed to two clean energy initiatives. One is the carbon capture and storage initiative, and the second is the bioenergy producer credit program.

Budget 2011 continues to build on our strong long-term strategy to green our energy supply. In support of climate change we will maintain our commitment to carbon capture and storage. This year’s allocation is $73 million. This increase includes the repr o- filing of originally budgeted amounts for carbon capture and storage to future years. An overall investment of $2 billion for those four CCS projects, however, continues. In turn, Mr. Chai r- man, for that investment we are expected to start removing by 2015 some 5 million tonnes of CO 2 emissions from the atmo s- phere.

We started that process last month with the first project that we had go out the door, and that’s the one with Enhance Energy. Work is continuing on the remaining three projects. I hope that we’re in a good position to make those announcements this year. Another part of our commitment to clean energy, of course, is the bioenergy projects. Since 2006 government has invested some $239 million into three grant programs to stimulate bioenergy development, which in turn has encouraged more than $1.4 billion in additional private investment.

Biofuel initiatives will se e an increase from $43 million in ’10-11 to $58 million in ’11-12. This budget will fund a five -year extension to the bioenergy producer credit program. The extension will encourage the development of new technologies that use nonfood crops, waste biomass, or wood to produce products like fuels, power, and heat.

Some of the projects that are being supported through the pr o- gram include wood waste gasification facilities in Edmonton and Fort McMurray, a bioenergy applied research facility near Vegr e- ville, an organic waste-to -energy facility in Lethbridge, and an industrial park in Drayton Valley converting wood waste into electricity. These projects are creating new value-added products, spurring investment, and contributing to important clean energy research. This budget also allocates $10 million to implement the reco m- mendations of the regulatory enhancement project.

The task force has recommended a long overdue streamlining of our regulatory process in the province as it applies to the oil and gas sector, and I’d be happy to go into any discussion about that over the next couple of hours. I wanted to spend a few moments speaking about our nonr e- newable resource revenue forecast. Now, many factors are considered when forecasts are developed, including supply and demand, world economic growth, and non-OPEC supply growth.

But as one can see from the recent civil unrest in the Middle East, those forecasts are often outdated within days, let alone a year, which our budget is attempting to predict. So while foreca sting prices in a market as volatile as oil and gas is a challenge, the Department of Energy based its forecast on assumptions regarding factors such as economic growth, demand trends, and expected supply levels. This forecast is then compared to estimates made by a number of other industry analysts, including banks, investment dealers, and forecasting agencies.

Budget 2011 shows prices equal to the average of those industry experts and private-sector forecasters that were surveyed by the Department of Energy. I must add that it’s clearly below what oil is trading at today, but in saying that, I would say that when our final numbers are produced for the budget year 2010- 11, our fore- casts will be likely within about $2 of what we’d forecast in the budget som e 12 months previously. This budget assumes that natural gas prices in ’11-12 will average about $3.45 per gigajoule and that oil prices will average $89.40 per barrel of west Texas intermediate crude.

Budget 2011 also estimates that nonrenewable resource revenue will increase quite dramatically over the next three years, Mr. Chairman. Resource revenue is forecast to increase by $319 mi l- lion, or 4 per cent, to $8.3 billion in ’11- 12 and grow to $10.2 billion in ’12-13 and $11.9 billion in ’13- 14. That growth is attri- buted primarily to three things: the increase in bitumen production, the payouts that will start to occur with our oil sands plant, and increased prices.

Now, I know that we’re running close to my time limit, so I’ll just conclude by saying that bitumen royalties are forecast to increase by some $556 million in ’11 -12, by 1 and a half billion dollars in ’12- 13, and by $1.497 billion in ’13-14. To conclude, Mr. Chairman, energy will remain Canada’s eco- nomic driver for many years. Alberta’s role w ill continue to be one of leadership and responsible development of those resources, which will ensure sustained prosperity for all Albertans. With that, Mr. Chairman, I would be pleased to engage in ans- wering any questions that may arise. The Deputy Chair: Hon.

Member for Calgary -Buffalo, do you want to go back and forth? Mr. Hehr: Yeah, that’ll be fine. The Deputy Chair: Then we’ll work 20 minutes back and forth. Mr. Hehr: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for the comments, hon. minister. It is indeed a pr ivilege to be here at estimates d e- bate, and I’d like to thank your staff for coming through what no doubt has been a challenging couple of years. I know that when I first came to this House, we were going through a rapid advanc e- ment of oil prices, which, I think, went all the way to $140 and

March 9, 2011 Alberta Hansard 273 then went all the way back down to $35. Many people were out of work. Lord knows, I do a lot of complaining about things, but I know that when I was born at the Holy Cross hospital in 1969, I was lucky and blessed to be in Alberta, and some of that is be- cause of the fact that we have a large abundance of oil and gas here. I realize the benefits it brings. You also realize that I’m new in my capacity here, so if some of my questions appear to be naive or redundant, I’d appreciate some leniency. I’m sure I will get the appropriate answer to move ahead.

At the end of the day I hope you realize that I, too, hope that we have a strong oil and gas culture and community providing us with a revenue stream where we can build a be tter province for not only today but tomorrow. On that note, we can go right into some of the plans. Again, the hon. minister recognized and even my soliloquy showed that pr e- dicting oil and gas revenues is often very difficult.

However, if we look at this year’s postings by the government and what the prog- nosticators are saying out there, one has to question why we have permanently incorporated into our royalty framework the drilling stimulus initiative we have, which is essentially 5 per cent of ro y- alty being paid for any new well. I’ll start with that question. Mr. Liepert: Well, that’s a very good question. I think the easy answer to that, hon. member, is the fact, as you will probably r e- call, that we had a situation in the province where we weren’t competitive.

Capital can flow, and when we made the announc e- ment that that would become permanent, the results speak for themselves. The land sales are clearly an indicator of that. I don’t have the information in front of me, and I’m going from memory, but I saw yesterday the report from the Canadian association of drilling contractors, which said that the number of rigs working in this province in January is back to 2006 levels.

Member, there aren’t a lot of things that we do in government where we have the data that can back up that the decision that we made was right, and those are two very important pieces of data that I think justify that the changes we made to the royalty structure a year ago are wor k- ing and will continue to work. I make no apologies for them. 3:10 The Deputy Chair: The hon. member. Mr. Hehr: Thank you. I didn’t ask the minister to make an apol- ogy for it. I realize that at the time, about a year ago, it may have been necessary. Okay?

Given the timing, given the political ram i- fications that were at stake here in the province, it probably should have been made. Now, what about the permanency of it? That’s more what I’m worried about. Would there be some mechanism that we could incorporate into the system where after three quarters of oil and gas over $100 we will have this come off? Then after three quar- ters of it under a certain price the royalty incentive would go back on. I realize that the industry likes certainty.

But at some price point, when we’re reasonably certain that the Alberta pe ople are employed, that the government is doing all right, that oil compa- nies should be doing all right, maybe there could be some mechanism like that put in place. Is that the strangest idea you’ve heard? I’d just like to hear your response to that. Mr. Liepert: Mr.

Chairman, I should say to the Member for Calgary-Buffalo that when I made my previous comments, I must admit I was kind of looking over his right shoulder because I know what the question from the Member for Edmonton- Highlands-Norwood is going to be, so I wanted to prime him for that. Let me answer the question this way, hon. member. When we did our competitiveness review and we held our meetings with industry, there were three issues, I think, that came to the for e- front.

One, we needed to wor k on streamlining the regulatory process in this province, two, we had to adjust our fiscal regime, but probably just as important was number three, which was that when we adjusted that fiscal regime, we then left it alone. Predictability and stability in the investment community is paramount. One of the things that we continue to hear as we meet with the investment community, whether it’s in Toronto, New York, or London, as it was most recently, is the question: well, are you going to leave it that way? The answer I gave them last spring was: you’ve got to take my word for it.

We’re meeting with them now, a year later, and they’re seeing that we’re serious, that the fiscal regime we’ve put in place is the one we’re going to move forward with and that we’re going to stick to it. As a result, in- vestment is flowing into the province. Mr. Hehr: I will agree that you had to leave it. That was probably because you had changed it six times in the year previously. So to give them some measure of confidence, you may have had to do that. I understand that. They were difficult times.

What percentage of growth – and I know this is difficult – for the economy or the oil and gas industry is forecasted because of these changes in the royalty framework? Can you put a numbe r on it? Does your department attribute a number to it? How much was due to the change in the royalty framework, or how much is due to the price of oil here? Some skeptics say that we got caught in a bind of low oil prices, political pressures, what have y ou, and the like. Mr. Liepert: Well, I think it’s a bit of both. You know, I take as an example land sales.

We have noticed in the last year both with land sales and the number of rigs that are working that there has been a shift from gas to oil. There’s a n obvious reason for that. I’m not sure if we can put an exact number on it, but I think the number that is important is that if you have collectively the right regime in place, the investment will flow. You know, the thing that’s interesting is that even in natural gas and certainly in the shale plays in the province and actually throughout North America there is continued strong investment in gas even though the price is low. It is only an estimation on our part.

I don’t think there’s any way we can actu ally decipher it to say what percentage led to the decision. But I would say that what we’re seeing in gas is telling me that the fiscal regime is more important than the world prices right now. The Deputy Chair: The hon. member. Mr. Hehr: Well, thank you. If we can go to royalty performance measures, the old performance chart for the collection of royalties was Crown revenue share. That was a portion of the oil and gas industry’s annual net operating revenue that is paid to the Crown as a royalty.

A three- year moving average of between 20 and 25 per cent was the target range. Now, the department – really, I think you know this – only ever received 19 per cent. This was mentioned in the Auditor General’s report, and it mentioned a lot of big problems with this measurement. This has now been r e- placed with the competitive performance target, which is combined tax and royalty rates for Alberta natural gas and co n- ventional oil production compared with other jurisdictions.

I think this is a good measure because it includes both taxes and royalty rates, and you have to factor in both because in Alberta we expect our workers to be paid decent wages.

274 Alberta Hansard March 9, 2011 Why can’t this government have two performance measures, one to measure competitiveness and the other to measure the prov- ince’s take? Can you separate out these two to make it a little more easy for maybe just me to understand or possibly other people? Can you have a competitiveness number, how we’re doing on competitiveness? What is our province’s total take? Can you separate that on just our total take on the oil side of things and then our total take on the side of taxes? Mr. Liepert: I’ll try and answer the first part of the question first.

I have a slide, that I’d be happy to provide to the member, which shows that our combined royalty and tax structure makes us the second most competitive jurisdiction in North America. Saskatche- wan is slightly ahead of us in a competitive environment, especially on the oil side, but their royalties are very, very low. From a co m- petitive standpoint we are very confident that the regime we have in place now puts us in that competitive environment.

What I think you have to be careful of, though, when the me m- ber receives a copy of this slide, is that you have to remember that Alberta producers have to get their product to market. For the market, whether it be on the east coast of the U.S. or California or wherever it is, there is a significant transportation cost that Alberta producers have to incur. As an example, new shale plays in New York state or even Texas shale plays that are supplying gas to many of the major markets in the U.S. don’t incur those same transportation costs. I’ll get a copy of this to the member.

I’d ask if you could repeat the second part of your question. Mr. Hehr: Well, I think that there could be, in our view, two, I guess, performance measures, one that measures competitiveness and one that measures the province’s take. I mean the take just out of oil and gas revenues and then the take out of oil and gas and natural gas and taxes. Could we have the two numbers? Is there a way to separate the two numbers, or am I just misreading it? Mr.

Liepert: I think that, you know, I won’t use the term that the member is using, which is “take.” What we try to do is put in place a regime that encourages the private sector to invest. The private sector invests, it creates jobs, it pays taxes, and I think the proof is in the pudding. I don’t know that you can kind of break it out that way. I know there are a lot of academics who tr y to use that terminology, try to use that measurement. It’s not one that we necessarily subscribe to. Mr. Hehr: I believe the hon. minister will recognize that our job is not only to provide jobs and do a competitive thing.

It’s also to have resources that will not only pay for things now but, hope- fully, pay for things later. It’s not only being competitive for businesses to do work here but to have a relatively competitive, to use a term that we’re throwing around here, capture of royalties – okay? – a capture of the economic rent from what is, to use a term that would be out of date, the people’s oil. Mr. Liepert: Do you want me to respond to that? Mr. Hehr: Sure. Yeah. 3:20 Mr. Liepert: Again, there’s a balance. I mean, when we impl e- mented some royalty changes, I don’t think we found the right balance two to three years ago.

As I said earlier, capital can flee on a moment’s notice, and there are lots of places in the world to drill for oil. So it has to be a balance. There’s no question that we need to ensure that Albertans receive fair return on the investment that’s being made, but at the same time the investor also has to not be seen as overly penalized. It’s a balance, and I think all indica- tors are that we’ve now found the right balance. Mr. Hehr: Just a question.

If you look at our basin and our types of oil reserves and our type of marketplace, where, actually, we encourage large companies to come in and invest like Suncor, Total, all these different plays, what areas of the world are we in direct competition with for this type of investment? Where are the other jurisdictions in oil? It’s my understanding we’ve got 25 per cent of the world’s oil resources, in and around there, and it’s my understanding that the world is getting fewer and fewer of thes e places that are really open for business to large commercial enter- prises like the Suncors, the Totals, and whoever.

Can you name me some of the jurisdictions we’re in competition with that allow for that sort of open competition as we do? Mr. Liepert: Well, the reality of it is that Alberta and Canada sit on the largest proven reserves by far of any democratic, not -state- owned country. You know, to answer the question is difficult because when a company makes a decision to invest, there are a number of factors that are taken into account, and I’m sure that on that list of factors that are taken into account today, civil unrest has jumped to the top.

I don’t think there is a formula where any particular company will say: “Okay. We’re going to plug the pieces into this formula, and then we’ll make our decision.” You know, there are a lot of factors that are taken into account. The percentage of the profitability is one thing; the climatic conditions are another thing. But, clearly, how stable is the government in the jurisdiction that we’re planning to invest money in for decades? How stable is that government? I think that’s jumped to the top of the list of considerations that are taken into account. Mr. Hehr: I would agree.

Maybe I can find this in a textbook, but would some of the people here be able to answer the question: where do they see the jurisdictions that are competing for the kind of investment dollar that we have? I think you said Saskatchewan. Mr. Liepert: Well, you’ve got to remember that we’re talking about, really, four different commodities here: conventional oil, unconventional oil, conventional gas, and unconventional gas. When it comes to unconventional, or shale gas, clearly northeas t- ern British Columbia has been a hotbed of activity and investment.

A good chunk – maybe we’d like to see a little more – is moving over the border into Alberta. But we know that our competition for investment in shale gas is primarily in the U.S., huge discove r- ies of shale gas. When it comes to conventional na tural gas, you know, it’s a tough go out there today because of the price. We’re in compet i- tion, primarily when it comes to conventional natural gas, with the North American continent. We have no ability right now to get it off the continent. If we got it off the continent, we’d be competing with countries like Qatar, who are big into liquefied natural gas.

Clearly, Russia has become the number one supplier to Europe of natural gas. So in conventional natural gas that would be our com- petition globally if we could get it off the continent. When it comes to oil sands and heavy oil, there are other coun- tries in the world that we compete against. I would say: offer it as a package. The oil sands, clearly, are at the top of the list. I think the best measurement of that is when you take a look at who’s been investing in the oil sands in the last year or two. We’ve had significant investment from mainland China.

We’ve had inves t- ment from Korea, Thailand, across the globe. Then when it comes to conventional oil, that’s been around for a long time. We get back to what I just said a few minutes ago, that our competition is – again, we don’t ship off the continent. So when it comes to who

March 9, 2011 Alberta Hansard 275 do we compete with and who do we sell to, it’s primarily on the North American continent. That gr aph that I sent you is a pretty good indicator. Mr. Hehr: It sounds like there are various different areas in the world we compete against. I’m just trying to get a handle on what the geopolitical sense is in these areas, to really see which areas are open for business. That’s more of what I’m getting at. But I can do that on my own time, not in this time. Mr. Liepert: Well, if I could, Mr.

Chairman, I think the number is that something like 50 per cent of the reserves in the world are state owned, so they have limited ability to invest by the private sector. We can’t say that they don’t because they’re joint ventures, but by and large the environment that we offer in Alberta is only available in about 50 per cent. We have about 50 per cent of the world market. Mr. Hehr: Okay. Thank you. Just one thing. I get questions about this one. You hear us talking a lot about Norway sometimes, and I realize there are different tax regimes and all that stuff there. This is a different time period.

Did we maybe make a wrong decision in ’93 in getting rid of the Alberta Energy Company and paying off the debt, when we have groups like Total over here now who are setting up shop and sending what I view are profits back to the motherland, if you want to call it that? I always thought that that at one point in time was owned by the Alberta people and that Peter Lougheed set it up so that 50 per cent of the industry would be controlled by the Alberta government, where we could play off, keep the private system but know we’ve got a competitive system here.

If the privates won’t do it and we find it viable, then we’ll go in. It doesn’t look like we have the balance to be able to do that anymore. I know you don’t like to look backwards, but are we missing that sort of play here? Mr. Liepert: Well, I think that when you mention the Alberta Energy Company, you have to really go back and look at the es- sence of why the Alberta Energy Company was formed. In many ways it was formed because there was a market void, if you might. The decision was made over a period of time that the company no longer served the purpose that it was set up for.

The private sector was adequately developing the resources in Alberta, and Albertans were receiving appropriate return on the reserves that they owned. I think that the history of the kind of marketplace that you talk about is not something that we want to see in Alberta. I go back to Petro-Canada. I mean, Petro-Canada was a federal intrusion into what we saw was the marketplace. Ultimately, the government of the day in Ottawa concurred with us; it sold Petro-Canada off.

You know, I think it’s almost a situation where you either have a private sector developed industry or you have a state-owned com- pany that does it all and forms partnerships with the private sector. [interjection] I know the Member for Edmonton-Highlands- Norwood, but I wouldn’t get too excited over there, Member, because the election results tend to speak for themselves. The Deputy Chair: Just to note, we’re on our second 20-minute segment. Mr.

Hehr: While we’re on sort of this trip down memory lane on Alberta Energy, I was a youth, and I think my dad owned six shares and was very proud to own those shares. 3:30 Nevertheless, you were talking about voids in the marketplace. That’s when governments either step in to incent things to get done, or they do it themselves. I look at that as a situation that may exist in our bitumen upgrading right now. In my view, the government should maybe be doing more to incent this. It’s easy for me to sit over here and say: “Why don’t we have seven up- graders going up here?

When I’m going to sleep at night, I dream that they’re there. Why aren’t they there?” That type of thing. I realize you’re saying that there are already these places down in the United States, that we can send it down there, and they’re ready to take it. It’s an investment by industry. There is money already spent there. Why are we going to make industry invest twice? I understand that argumen t. I understand the economics of it. I don’t understand it from a province-building capacity. Why don’t we take a calculat ed decision as the Alberta gov- ernment?

These oil sands: I’m making a logical bet that these things are going to pump oil for 300 years. Okay? I’ve heard that number banging around. I, for one, hope they’re pumping for 300 years. Why don’t we bet the world is going to need these re- sources for 300 years? Why don’t we say: “Piss on it. Let’s build these upgraders here.” Why don’t we have these jobs? Why won’t we build the province? Why won’t we build the infrastructure here? Mr. Mason: You can say that. You could get away with it, Ron. Mr. Liepert: I’ve got to figure out how I respond to that.

Well, in many ways, member, that’s exactly what we’re doing. Under the leadership of my colleague here, the Minister of Sus- tainable Resource Development, we developed in this province what’s called the bitumen royalty in kind, or BRIK, program. You know, I doubt that either one of us will be here 20, 30 years from now. If we were, I’m not so sure that what you’re asking for wouldn’t in fact be happening. We could be in a position 10, 15, 20 years from now as the Crown, the largest handler of bitumen in the province, and that number could be 200,000 or 300,000 or 400,000 barrels a day.

I think, though, the strategy that we’re on right now is that w