VOL. l PREL!MIN'AR'! UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: no. 34 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 2l, 1979

~ovember 21, 1979 The House :net. at 3:00 ?.!·!. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (S!!-' .. HS) : Tape 1235 PK - l Order, please! I am sure all hen. members would. like to join me in expressing sympathy eo the family of a former Legislative Librarian who served. ehis House for a lengthly period of t.ime, and I refer to Miss Elizabeth Jeffers who passed away on Monday, November 19, at Carbonear. Miss Jeffers was t~e Legislative Librarian from 1949 t.o 1966, and served L'1 that capacity under three Speakers, Mr. Speaker S~arkes, Mr. Speaker Courage, and ~x. Speaker Clarke.

With the concurrence of the House,I would like to extend an expression of sympathy to her family. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Leader of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: M.r. Speaker, I have a question for the hen. the Premier.

In view of ~e distrubing and conflicting stories which are coming from a variety of sourees with regard to the future of the Come By Chanee oil refinery, ! wonder if the Premier is in a position to give an assurance that under no circumstances will the mothballing, as it has come to be called, of this refinery cease at the end of the present year? r think he is aware ~t ~~t report is widespread in my constituency and I guess elsewhere at the present time. MR. SPEAKER: ?R£.'UER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. M:r.

Speaker, I was no e. aware of any comments today or yeFterday on it, but undoubtedly I can appreciate that a number of c?mments might be rampant or a number of rumours mighe be rampane i1,the diserict of Bellevue, given the fact ~t the Come By Chance oil refinery facility is in that constituency. As the Leader of the Opposition knows, and I guess everybody in the House knows, there have been fairly extensive negotiations ~etween ourselves and the receiver and ECGD on this matter 3C96

~ovember 21, 1979 Tape 1235 PK • 2 Premier Peckford: over ~e lase number of weeks. And we are L,to a sort of negotiations with them right new. rt is our ur.ders"Canding t..'lat - and ! do not know who puc out this rumour, I de not know if it was the receiver or who it was, who made some offharAed comment in the Last couple of weeks about it, but from all of the information that we have we are not aware that mothball~,g costs will suddenly end on the end of December. But we are talking to the people in ECGD, and the receiver, ?eat, Marwick,aCout the whole matter presently.

And as soon as we have some definitive answers we will pass them along ~o. first of all, the Leader of -:.i.e Opposition as ::il.: member for the area and to the hen. House. 3C97

nove::-.!:er 21.19i9 :!'te Opeosi tion. !iR.JAH!F.SIJN: Ta~<:! ~:a, 1236 AH-1 !1y eorr:r.ent referreC. - Elerha?s I ought to have been a ~it more specific~o a stat~~ent, ! ~elieve as recently as this t:orning,quo"t.ing the hon. t."'le :,:.inister of Finance (!!r.Collins) as saying, and ! believe it ..,as !n quotes, "Only as a last resort waul~ rot.h~alling be considered or indeed t.,e disi.'ltegration of t."'le plant,!' ':."lat is 1 t."le disasse~r.bly of t.~e ?la.nt. r am sure if t."'le hon. minister ~as misauoted he will be glad to say so,but what I really am getting at at the moment is I think it would reake ~~tters a lot simpler and a lot more effective for tb.e p'!ople of t.."le area,and ! guess for all of NewfounClanC,if we knew wi~"'l clarity t."'lat t."'le government itsel! would insist that ~"'lis facility not ~e allowed to, in a sense, rust away,let us say, at the end of t.~e year or at any point in the ~~ediate future.

The hen. the Premier. ?'!ttM!ER PECKFOP.D: Perhaps the Leader of the opposition is confused ...,it.~ the coe:r:oent!l that t.":e ~'ini3ter of Finance (Dr.Collir.sl made. As I unde.rsta."ld t..~e comnents of t.."i.e ~1inister of Finance t.'&ey (nr.Collinsl had to do with selling t..~e facili~ as scrap. ! t."i.ir.k ~he ~~nister of rinance (Dr.Collins) i~dicatecl t.~at it was only at a last resort ~~at the facility would be sold as scrap; it had not.'&ing to do with mothballing costs. We have tried to keep the people of the area up-to-date on this matter and called 3ome of t.."'lem into St.

John's some tire ago, a couple of weeks ago, to meet with the ~~nister of Finance (Or.Collins) and the President of t.."'le CO~"lcil and others in government to brief them completely on ~hat is going on. Of course,we are very much of t..~e view t.~at the refinery, t.."'le facility, has a future and can be- ~.!.de reactivated. I r:oticed in t.."'le paper, I t.":ink, yesterday that the Receiver is cut again looking for additional proposals, over and al':o~.<c: t.~e FAC proposal, so t."!at '"'e can aggresively get on wi~~ ~"'le job ~f seeing who is around who =ight like to reactivate the facility.

So we are very much of the •Jiew t."lat 3G98

Ncver.ber 21.1979 Tape :~o. 1236 ~~e facility is i.n qocd shape right now and shoulC be kept that way for an extended per~od of time so that we can have !':'Ore time to teeth look at any new prcposals ar.'.i to::: l!ltsure that the facility is not just sole! as $Crap sctr.ewhere Cown the road. H .. tt.JJ\MIESO!l: MR.. SPEAKER: (Siir.ms) the Opposition. ~R. JJ\MIESCN: A supplementart. A supplementary. The hen. Leader of ~r.

Speaker, may I put it to the hon. the Premier t.'"lat t..'"l.ere seem to me to be two aspeets to this, one obviously involving ECG and the receivers, and in those circumstances I can understand ~"'e legalities of the situation. It see~s to me on t..,_e opposite sic!e,ha..~ever, from t.'"l.at is the responsi.bilit:'! of t.'"l.e government to see whether it can in fact,as part of its industrial strategy and job creation,ta.ke a separate and distinct approac::..., in terms of trying to generate tr.e interest of sometody in operating the facility.

What I am asking is is the hon. t.~e Premier saying ~~at we ar~ now merely waiting 3C99

~vember 21, l9i9 Tape 123i EC - 1 MR. JA.'1IESON; until the ECGD and Peat, Harwick ad.ver-..isinq or promoting or whatever name one wishes to apply to it, see what it throws up on its own, or is the Industrial. Oepar""..:-ent. of the Government of Newfoundland itself seeking out and. t..-ying to find. specific or potential opua1:0rs for this facility? MR. SPEAKER: (Si..t::ms) The hen. the Premier. Mr.

Speaker, we are working through the receiver Md ECGO, ·,o~ho have a fai: nu:tler of contac't.S around t:.h.e world, and a number of initiatives have been maCe in the last two or three weeks t.o potential buyers and so on to indicate to them again thae proposals will be accepted over and above the First 1\.::'a.bian Corporation proposal.

So not only through ads in papers 1 bu1:. a fairly aggressive campaign around the world., internationally, has been undertAXen by the receiver through contact with the Government of Newfoundland, through contact \lith ECGD, to ensure that every possible avenue is explored a.nd any kind of indication by any corporation anywhere in the world has been followed up on within hours of hearing about it. And ..,e do not jt.J.Sl:. wait to hear from somebody else; we, ourselves, go out and. t::y to initiate, through. t..1.e receiver, additional initiatives c.o t-~ co find buyers for this facility. MR. Ji\M.!ESON; Mr.

Speaker, a. supplementarf. A final supplemenl:.a.ry, t.be hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. J.i\."UESON; To be quite specific:, Mr. Speaker, I understand the matter of the receiver and the Peat, Ma.r.riclc. side of it. What;.

I .ut saying is apart from that:. - for instance, whatever the hon .. the Premier or eolleaques opposite may t..~ink of, let us say, Petro-canada. or ' some other agency of t.lte Government of canada. or so-me help that the cepa..rtment of I.ndus~ry, Trade and Coumerce might be able to provide, apart altogether from what is be.inq done in conjunction wit..'t t.."te receivership, surely it is important ;nat the Govern.ment of Newfoundland, it:self, initiate a.''ld. say, 'We are going to cry to take t..1.e lead rather than simply wait until we see whae the result is of this separate and protrOtional ca:tpa.ign :' 3100

November 21, 1979 HR. SPEAKER: {Simms) PP.EMIER PEC<E'ORO: ':'ape 1237 £C - .2 The hon, the Pre :tier. Wel;L,~ the first t."ting, Hr. Speaker, is that it is not sore of separate, So tnat ~e do not have people in E.CGD, people in Peat, 'M.arwic.'t, people in t."te Newfoundland Goverrucent, qoinq a£ter t."te same people or wnatever, we are t::ying to co-ordinate our effor""..s in this affair, because it cioes a lot more good than all of us going off in our own separate direc:eions. On the question of Petro-Canada, ~e have ealked to Mr.

Crosbie, the :.tinister of Finance, about t.'ti.s and to other people in Energy, :tines and Resources in Otta~a over. :.>te last t" .. o or three month.s about the whole question of Pet:o-Canada and ·o~hether, in fact, it had any interest here on t."tis i:lusiness of CotM By Cllance, and, to this date, t."te:e really has not been any serious interes't shown, even though we have indicaeed our interest in seeing it happen that way.

So we have been t:ying t.o co-ordinate with. the receiver all t.."te contacUl we know and t.rfing to pool all our resources into ensuring t.~t no stone is left unt.urned in our desire -=.o get: at corporations who in--tlie most prel~nary way t:l.igh.t be interested in looking at Con-e By Olance. 3101

November 2:1, 1979 Tape !lo. 1233 S::> - 1 PREMIER PEC.'<.FORD: ! can a.ssl.lre ::..'1e ::on. membec and the Leader of ~he Opposi~ion that every possible avenue is being followed up on in an aggressive manner as of this moment. :iR • .SPEAKER: (M.r. Si:nms) The hen. member for Lal?oile followeci by th.e hon. member for aaie Veru - White Bay. MR. S. :lEARY: Hr. Speaker, my queseion is for ~,e !ti.c.iste.r of Finance (Dr. J. Collins). sack in 1972 the :-!cores' administration appointed. Burns, Fry Limited and A.E:. :.mes 4nd Company L~ted as the fiscal agents for the Province.

Recencly, they have been replaced by Dominion Securities Limited and McLeod, Young, Weir L.i.mited and the only explana1:ion w have had so far !rem the :tinister is a vague general press release ::..~t was issued from ~~ minis~er's office. would ~,e minister tell us now why it was necess~/ 1:0 change the government's fiscal agents? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, it was not necessary ~ change che fiscal agent:.s. :tt was a ma.cter we took under considerable study.

We interviewed all fiscal agents who not only nor:n.Uly visit the Province looking !or cur business but who also look for business from Newfoundland Hydro'" t·!e also made inliUiries in other regards as to t.b.e particular expertise, the particular orientation, the particular type of business affairs that fiscal agents do that would fit into our requirement.3. Ar.d this was subject:. to quite extensive st:.udy and we decided. that the two firms who were appointed subsequently, best fiteed our need.

This was done, I think, in a very protessional way, we. are very pleased with the resu.lts we have so far from the advice they have given us. MR. S. NElUt1 ; MR. SPEAKER: La.Poile. MR .. S .. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member for Mr. Speaker, t.he hon. gentleman in answering the question said t.h.ac it was not necessary to :::hanc;e the government's fiscal agents yet the government did ch~~ge their fiscal agents and I am trying to find out frcm the minister why such a 3102

Novmaber 2l, 1979 Tape uo. l23S SO - 2 MR. S. :fEARY: drascic seep was necessary? For instance, ciid au...~s, Fr<f and Ames make a mess of our financial relat.ions in the :noney :narket.s ot' t.h.e world? But Why was it. necessary; '!he minister says it was not necessary, but yet the cha.nge ..as oade... Could the bon. gentleman tell us why it was made? Did Burns, Fry do a. qood. job for the government1 ~id. they mismanage the financial affairs of this Province? What precisely happened t..i1at the gover:unent had to kick them out a.tld. replace them with new fiscal agents? MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Simms) DR. J.

COL.t.INS : The bon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker 1 as far as I know Burns, Fry did an extremely good job for the Province. I am not aware of any mess or difficulties they got t.he Provi.oce in in any way1 but there a..re a. number of these firms available to us, we decid.ed to look over t.he field, we decided 3103

iiovet<l:e:: 21, l9i9 :lR. J. COL:..I:I3: be c~nst:uceive. ':'a:;:e ::o. 1239 !:,',) - 1 a change would be helpful o;o us, ;..·ould Ue !l'.ight have ta.ken other .Eirrt"s Cut -.."e decided at t..":.is point in t:i:::e that :..,_e t•t~o firTt.s chosen best fitted our needs. This •,.;as clone qt:.ite ar..icably with the ot.,er fiscal agenes •.,·ho had previcusl:.t been cur aqents.

They will be involved in our bone issues, not as lead ~agars but they will be involved in the syndicate if ;.;e do have to go tc t.!:e :rcr.ey roa.rkets. •-:e still feel it quite open to us to go to ~r.es and sums, Fr"/ for any aC.vice and we have no reason eo Coubt tllat that. will !;e fot""t.hcordng. Jut ou.r main I!'anagers, if we sl"'.ould need tc go to the l"'Cney r.arket, anC: ou: main advisors in financial !l'atters will be the t:'..-o fi:rrs the h.c:-t. rrer.!::er mentioneC:. A final StJt?plernentarJ, :·!r. Speaker. !<m. SPEAKER (SI:,q.JS): A final suppler.enearJ, the hon. r-.er.=er for La.Poile~ MR.

S • !.:EAR!C: ~z. Speaker, would the hon. gentleman unC.ertake to get for the neuse the amounts ?aid out each year in co~r~ssions etcetera to SU-'"":'l.S, FrJ Lirited anr:! P .• E. ll<rres COI'!'pany r..ir:o.ited, a statement of the ~ounts paiC out to ~,_ese tJo companies? ~nd also, while the hon. gentle=an is answering that question, would he tell us 'Jhat: t.he ,t:eople of :;ewfoundlanc! can expect now in t.l--te 'itay of it:'.proverrenes and benefits as a result of :his change of fiscal agents? The hon. the ~~.inister of Finance. DR. J. CCLU!-lS: Cn the first point, Hr.

S?ea.ker, !: can assu...'"'"e 'the hon. mer-ber I will do that juse as soon as possible. On the second point 1 I think the people of Newfoundland can look for..-ard. to extre:r.ely professional, knowledgeable advice as to what is happening in the roney etarkees of the !,'Orlc! i we will go to them when we are looking at the prospec~ for the econo~y beth provincially and nationally 1 both in the short-term and the long-term. In other words, they will give us any adVice t.~at th.eir expertise allows t.~em to do. ~1R. SPEAKER: The hen. !t'er-her for 3a.ie Ve:-te - V:11.ite Bay. 3104

:<ovet"".ber 21, 1979 Tape ~;o. 1239 :xr - : :tR. T. F!DEOGT: :tr. Speaker, ! :tave a question for e.."'!.e !~nister of ~:ines anC Z."'.ergy (:!r. aarry). I ""onder if th.e minister could tell the fiouse ··•hether or not t!'\e envircr.reental i::-;:act studies of the t:pper Sallr.on De•relopr.ent have been cctl"pleted yet and, if so. if they have been clelivereC. to the govermr.ent anC. if the governtr.ent have had a chance to assess the~? !-!R. SPEAKE?: The hen. ~.inis'ter of ~·!ines and Er.erg'!. !·tr.

Speake:, I a.ssur.-e the hen. :rerrl:er is referring to certain stuc.ies whic!'i. deal wit.~ U:.e :rigration of <2.=ibou and other rr.at't.ers ~o;hich had not been totally co::::;:leted l::efore t..~e initial afproval was given for the construction of -.:::e access road fer t.l1e prcJ~::t. These studies, sor-e of t."lern will contir.ue throughout :..'ie -;.:int:e.r to Ceterminc the l'!'.igraWrf pat-:e::n of -:he e.:~.ri.bou during l:."le ;..inter and -::.ey •dl! 3105

November 21, 1979 Tape ~o. 1240 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: then be provided to Hydro and Hydro, as a term and condition of carrying on the projec~ must make sure that the road, the structures which they put in, that measures are taken to mitigate any such work - measures are taken to mitigate the impact upon the caribou movement. So that although approval for the project has been given, it has been given subject to the necessary changes, or modifications being made to avoid undue interference with the migratory pattern of the caribou herd. MR. SPEAKER [Simms): ~ supplementary, the han. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR.

RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, ! asked the question because it is my understanding that Nevfoundland Hydro has scheduled a public meeting in Bay d'Espoir tomorrow night for the purpose of public discussion of certain environmental studies. In view of what the minister has told us, that some of the studies may not be completed 1 I ask him now if certain segments of the studies have been done, say, those different from the caribou migrations, and whet~er in fact that is the purpose of the =eetinqs and if others will be held as the rest of the studies are completed. MR. SPEAKER: Ener~y. MR. BARRY: The hon.

Minister of ~ines and It is this government•s policy, Mr. Speaker, to have full disclosure of all matters relating to environmental matters on the Upper Salmon project or any other project. There have been certain studies completed with respect to environmental impacts of the Upper Salmon and,in fact,these studies have been made available to interested parties and are available from Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, and will be available for discussion with residents in the say d'Espoir 3~06

November 21, 1979 Tape No. 1240 MM - 2 MR. SARRY: area, or, for that matter, with any citizen of this Province who would like the information. And I, myself, have had certain meetings. I attended a panel discussion at the university where a group who were concerned about possible inter!erenee with any traditional land usage of the people of Conne River, raised questions about the pro1eet. So we are prepared to have the information as it is available, presented to the people of this Province for review, for examination, for comment, for criticism and for suggestion. MR. RIDEOUT: A final supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): The final supplementary, the hon. member for Baie Verte - White Bay, followed by the hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. RIDEOUT: ~r.

Speaker, despite the fact that the environmental impact studies of the caribou migration have not yet been completed~! wonder if the minister could tell the House whether or not it is a fact that the original route of the roads, as stated by Newfoundland Hydro, and I assume approved by 90v~rnment, has been changed and that the road is now being built right through the middle of what the local residents refer to as the calving ground of the caribou, is that being done with government knowledge and does it have govern~ent approval? 3107

November 21, 1979 MR. SPE:A.KE.q, (SIM!-'.S) : MR. BA..tm.Y: has his facts straight. Tape 1241 PK - 1 The hen. Minister of Mines and Energy. ~x. Speaker, I do not think the hen. member Initially there were two choices as to whethe~ a road would go in from the suchans area or from the Say d.'Espoir area,and. the decision had to be made on that. ~d after some debate and considerable differences of opinion 1 there was a decision made that the road could and, in fact, should for reasons of costs, efficiency, and technological reasons, go in from Bay d 'Espoir.

There were concerns raised about the environmental impact of this road.J and it was concluded that. on balance there would not be serious adverse environmental impact, on the caribou or any other feature of the environment. Now, one feature of the Upper Salmon project is that the very site of the dam and :.he canals, which •.till have to be built to the power house 1 appears to be at the centre of ~,e migratory pattern of the caribou. Now, there was some allegaeion or some statement that this is close to the calving ground of the caribou.

This is not right L'1 the cent..re of the caribou calvir.g ground, as far as ! know, nor does the road go right ~hrough the cent=e of the caribou calving ground. as the hon. member has staeed, to my knowledge. 3ut where the actual Upper Salmon project is going to be carried ou~ is a~ the centre of the migratory rou~e. Now there is no way of avoiding that, you know, they tend to funnel up through this area.

The best information I have, however, is that with the proper steps being taken, in t~s of having the size of ~~e canal, for example, not too steep so that they can get down and across, keeping the roadbed as low as possible ::;:o that it does not act as a barrier, taking other steps that are identified and spelled out for Hydro, that the project,itself,will not prove to be an impenetrable barrier and that the caribou can go around it one way or t..'le other or in some places right acros~right over the f=Oject.

And that is the basis upon which the project approval was given, ~'lat it could be built in such a way that even though the caribou - MR. NEARY: Build an overpass. 3108

November 21, 1979 Tape 1241 PK - 2 should be t.he way to go, then •.o~e can give serious :::onsideration to it. But even though the project itselt- ic is not just. the road, it is where the power house is going 1 and where the canals ar:.d so on are 3109

November 21, 1979 Ta;e :;o. 1242 MR. BARRY: right at ~~e center of ~he migraeory movement, that it can be built il'l such a way as to avoid undue interference with the caribou herd. That is the infonr.ation that I have. MR. SPEAKER (SIM!1Sl: The hen. mem.ber for Grand. Bank. MR. TH!Jl.I.S: M:. Speaker, I have a quest:ion I would like to direct to the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett).

On November 13th of this year, this mont:..l1,, the Greater Lamaline Area Development ASsociation, which is the associaeion whiCh eakes in from Point !1ay around over eo Lawn including Lamaline, Lord's cove, Point aux Gaul and Taylur's Bay, wrote to ~he minister inquiring abo~e rtunours that they had heard t..~t the Lamaline depot, highway's de~;:ot was to be moved from t.amali11.e to Grand Bank. To date, the Greater Lamaline Development Area has not had a reply from the minister.

My own informa~ion is 't...~t the depot, while we are s1:anding here, is in the process of being moved and there has been no consultation and the people have noc been informed that: this ...as actually going to happen. Could the minister tell me whether or not anybody has been in touch with the Greater Lamaline Development Area to advise them of t..~e move? MR. NEARY: That is l~ke the letter the Minister of Manpower qot £rom the memher • MR. SPE.AKZR: conmunica tions. MR. BRETT: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Mr.

Speaker, ! believe I saw a letter a couple of days ago from that group, I do not recall one before. ! understand that we are going to move the depot mainly because of vandalism and some damage to some of our equipment in some of the builclings, but t..~ere is no real firm decision on that. We have not discussed it with the people in Lamaline and I a..ttt not so sure that ve would. If there is a great deal of var.dalism tilere and if we can give better service, then r ~~ink we would move it anyway. MR. THOMS' MR. SPE.AKE:.R: Grand Bank. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. The hen. member for 311.0

!Iove..''t'ber 21,1?71? AH-2 '!'he ninis:er says t.b.a': t.~-..ere ;,.as been no !i:m decision rnade 1 however. I snoke with the superintenc!a!'lt:., t.~e regional superL~tendant of highways at Clarenville ~he advised rne that a definite decision has been made and the hiqhway's depot is,in !act, !::eing moved at this present tir.e, t.'"l.at is as of today. Now1 t."te closest hospital to the Lamaline ~rea is thirty miles away, scbool buses are goinq Scrt'.e sixteen miles tc t3ke children, could the minister tell me if and when t."e depot is ~oved how they are going to serviee that part of t..'le 9c.rin Peninsula? qoing to service it and so on? MR.SPEAKER:(S~~

s) and Communications. MR • a P:e'l'T : The hen • .'tinister of Transportation :tr Speaker, there would be no change in t~~ serviee. It would make no difference whatsoever whet.'"l.er you put your station in Grand Bank or whether the s~tion is in t.a:naline. Cbviously 1 if they are in Lamaline they have to travel t:o Grand Bank and i! they are in Grand Bank they hlive to travel up to Lamaline,so it would not make any differene~ to the service. 3111.

.;c..,·erl:.er 21, 1979 Ta;:e ....... 1.0:43 ~" - 1 '!'ne hen. ::::e::-.t:e= for Ecnavi.s:a ::c~~ . ...,:'-!!' •• L. STIFLI::G: >~:. 2::eak.er, I have a q~.:est.ion :or c!'le ,\!inister of t;ealt::h Wr. Gcuse). '!'here ·..tas a ::elevision prcgrar::-.e recently t:...1.ae aJ:oue an insulation '"'hich has veri C:angerous sii;).e af.fects, is the :tinister of Healt.l; aware of that problerr.? ~iR. SPE.i\KE?.: The hon. l"'.inister of Healt:.l; . . ~lr.

Spee-.ker, I ar.. a-..· are of it, I al"' aware of the progra..--:e he talkeC. ~<~ut .:l..-.d I .Jr. ~:..-are, too 1 th.at tne national Minister of Health is aware o! it anC is looking into it. ::R. L. S'!I?.Lr.-IG: A supplernentarJ, t~r. Speaker. :m.. SPtAK!?.: ~ supplementarj, t:.~e hen. ~e~er for Eonavista ~Iorth. The question came as a resul: of a nu::-te= of constitutents who have recently used this particular insulation.

Tht question is ,c.oes the ilinister of Health L'"l.tend to put out an"]. kind of publi:: release to warn people •..;ho are in :.-..e process of !laving this insta1leC. 1 t.~at t.'1ere is SC"r"e question about" i':.? Does t,:.,.e !iinister of Healt:..;, intend to do anything of a.public nature? . HR. SPE:Al:E:?.: '!he hen. :·'..inister of i:eal::.h . !-!r.

Speaker, •.oe are aware of .::.."1.ese rat:ers and that. is sort of a national t..l-:.ing, it is a. national ?rcgrillr'.mc really, the ir.s•.J- lation programme is national, and it is a concern of the ::tinister anci ,.,.e are ' awaiting a.'""IY fure.;,er directions from :tational f!ealth. h.:1ci if we th.ink it. is necessary at ~;,at. ti~e, ~~ will circulate to peopl~ in t.'1e Province. :-u~. L. STI?..U~;G: !tR. SPEAKER: Bonavista North. !1R. L. STIRLING: ;. final suppletr.entar], Hr. Speaker. :.. final sot?ple:r.enta.ry, the hoh. mer.ber for ar. Speaker, this is a very serious ques:ion.

It. was first t:rought to light al;cut a week ago, Anci the ~~nister of P.ealth, the federal minister, suggested t.l;at nobody Co anything without. first contacting hi.1':'1, and i: is a very serious question. Right no...,· t.l':ere is a =re-,.· in f!"Y particular district on Cehalf of one of ~he constitutents and he has his house partiall:t ccr.-pleteC. And tb.ere should l:e sou;e i~Ciate decision tr.ade by the Depa.rtrrent of Health to tell people t.o hold off or stop or to Co scrret.-'lin; 3112

::ovetr.Cer 21, 1979 c~: - :: :!F •• L. ST!F.!.I!:G: i..; the ::-ea~t.ir..e t:ecau:;e :..'lis is a very cost:ly ,t;rcposit.ion. Does c.."le :·!inister o£ nealt.h int.enC to taJ:e no act:icn at: until the feC.era.l ll".inister does sor::e~i::; atou-e. it? :1R. SPEAlJ:?.: (SI~!l-tS) The hon. !-tinister of Eealth. ~~R. if. HOGS£.: ~r. Speaker, as ! have stat.ed 1 l·;e ;.,:ill take action if it: is necessary and we have to find out first if it is necessarJ~t_~~~ cannot take this action just st:e~~ng from a radio or a television prograr.re.

I stated e..'"l.at. it is being invest.igateC: ar.cl we ·..:ill take the action if necessarf. :~. L. S:TIF.L!i1G: ~!P .• SE'Eft~::EP.: I ir.Cicat.ed a !inal supplemenury.I see no one else st.anding. The hen. trerber for Bona vista !:orth. HR. L. STiPLI!:G: There is some conflict bet: .. ·een his :irst. a.ns~er and the last: answer, ~r. Speaker. '!'~e first ans:..,.er I get, tb.e ur.der­ st:anding was that he had been in t.ouch ~ith the federal ~inist:er and nc..,.

I · .... culd Uke to ask t..-.,e provincial r..inister whether or l"'.ot,in f.:tct,he has been i.o touch wit..., t."le fecieral t!inist:er and "Mhat aCvice has t..~e. federal ::d.nist.er qiwn him. 3113

November 21 1 1979 MR. SPEAKER: {Simms) !iR. HOt.'SE: Tape 1244 EC - 1 The hon. t.ll.e Miniseer of !iealt.'l. Mr. Speaker, when I meneioned we were in touch with the federal minist.er and t.he federal cieparar.ent. &bout that 1 they had been in contact wi t.h t.'lis Province, yes. MR. STIRL.IUGt Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bonavista Nor<:."l. MR. STIRLING: Hr. Speaker 1 t .. ilis really is a very urgent. matter and he has not given us an answer. MR. SPEAKER: Order 1 please! I should, perhaps 1 point out to the hon. member for Bona. vis ea. :tore."l, (Hr.

Stirling) for your benefit, t..'lat t.'lere i!1 a procedure, if the hon. member is not satisfied with an answer, that you may wish to follow. MR. WARREN: The hon. t..'le member for Torngat Moum:ains. Mr. Speaker, rrrf question is to t.'le Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry). I requested an answer some eime ago, asking that it be laid on the table of the House. My question .is.: It ha.s Deen some ~ now since Or. Angus aruneau subm.it.t.eli his report. on a feasibiliey s:udy of the port of Lake Melville.

COuld. t.'t.e: minis~r tell us if the report will become public and when should the public expect .C::9Pies of the report? MR. SPEAKER: MR. BAR!<{, 'the hon. the Mini see.:: of Mines and Energy. Mr. Speaker, t..'l.is was an int.ernal report prepared. as one part of an ongoinq study for the Lake Melville area. We are looking at various ways in ...,hie.~ industry might Ce attracted to the Lake Melville area and this is in conjunction vith an overall Labrador transportation plan and development plan generally.

We hope to have various aspect.S of this stuciy put together for a report, the base of whi.ch can be released sometime in 1980, but th.e work h.as not yet been totally completed. MR. WARRE..~: MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplemen1:ai'Y• There is time for one short supplementary. 'l.'he hen. the mel:tlber for Torngat. Mcuntai.r::ls. 31.14

Nove=ber 21, 1979 Tape 1244 .E:C- 2 MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I am j u.s':. wondering how many reports a.re we going eo have while this House is sietinq? MR. SARRY: It is a. five 'fU.:: plan .. MR .. WARREN: It must: be a five year report plan probably. My supplementary is, In view of the minister's recent: sta.t:ement: concerning the icebreaker Franklin which I understand is inservicea.ble over in British Columbia somewhere - and he says it is vert doubtful if this icebreaker would be making a trip into Lake Melville tiU.s Winter - in view of itis statement, will t.;ere be any other icebreaker available?

If not, is the whole idea scrapped, or what? MR. SPEAKER: (Si:lms) Energy for a short answer. The hen. the Minister of Mines and HR. BARRY1 Mr. speaker, s!i~~~"_?tae~nt, -I ,haVe r8Cei"ved additional information on the icebreaker Franklin. This ieebreaker received severe damage when ateempting to come through, I t.hi.nk it was the Northwest: Passage trying to come Ease, and had t:o retw:n to Victoria, had to be repaired in t:he shipyard. I understand repairs have now been completed. She is on her way eo St. John 1 s :b.rauah "-t:ha .1'~- c.ana.l .. .is .a:c::;I8Ci:.ad to - MR. !mARY: .H.R'.

SPEAKER: She is going to pic-k up John c. on the ..,ay. Order, please! MR.. BAlUU!' : - No, I do not. t.'link she will pick. up John c. on the \llay along. MR. NEARY: She will pick up Frank D. (inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BA.Rltt: The Franklin is now expected t:o arrive in St. John 1 s aJ:OWld December St:h to December 7t..'l, and although the federal Minister.of Transport, Mr.

Maz:ankowski, coul.d not give me a commitmnt. at the titne we lll4da t..1.e original request. because of the unee:rtainty as to wh.eeher repairs \llould be eompleeed in ti.:ne, I will, in i~t Of t.Ji:e--new information, be approaching him again and I still hope that. •.,re will be a.ble 1 now1 t.o obtain !edera.l approval to have icebreak~r facilities provided in Lake Melville over this W'int.er. 3115

November 2l 1 1979 Tape No. !245 so - l :m.. SPEAKE:t: (!tr. Sir.msl Order 1 please! The time for oral Questions has expired. I should perhaps. point out to hen. members t:.oday t..'lat some of the questions and answers were rather lengthy ... :_ I notice k:oth sides nodciinq in aqreem.ent but I would not want- you to t.Unk that the rule has been ignored. I am sure 1-.on. members would vish to welcome to the gallery ·.mtil quite recenUi~-a fo%mer member of this House and. now the newly elected 11\eml:ler of Parliament for Buri.n - St. Geor;e (Mr. R. Simmcns). Hear, hea:.

ANSWERS TJ QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NotiCE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. 5 • NEARY : Answers to questions. SOME' HON. ~"tBE.RS : Oh 1 oh! MR. SPEAI<EA: 'the bon. the Premier. PREMI.ZR PECKFORD: ! thank the OOn. the member for La.Poile. Question 47 on August 1St.lt 1 1979, I hereby t.able t.be ans\o/Sr. A point of order, Mr. Speaker. ~· SP.EAXER: On a point of order, the hon. mem..ber for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr .. Speaker, the han. the Premier aqreed. yesterday t.o qet me some infor.na.tion in connection with gran t.s and subsidies to fish planes and. t.'le hon. Premier told me he W"Ould have ' ' the information tociay.

I li'Ould. like to ask the bon. qentlema..n. a..re we qoing to get the information today or a.re we not? '!o that point of order 1 I do not think, Mr. Speaker, that is a legitimate point of order. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order; I \ooQuld rule, as I have many times in the past !or the benefit of t..l-:le hen. member for La.Polle 1 !:hat. that is not a. point. of order, leiit.lmaCi. SOME HON • MEMBERS: on, oh! 3ti6

!-lovember 21, 1979 Verde. SOME HON • ME. 'iSS RS r MR. F. ROWE; Tape No. 1245 so - 2 OROEP..S OF THE CA"f Motion 2. The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Hear, he.ir. Mr. Speaker, I understand that I only have twenty minutes to introduce this particular Private Members' Bill and I hardly have time to list off the :epics that ve should cor.sicier under this hill in that particalar t:.i=e limit:..

Therefore, Sir, ! will not mention, the prearDle to ::tis particular bill but just si:=:pl/ read out the resolution itself, ~That. this House tully ciebate all aspects of the fishery i.."l order that. the government may be directed to develop a strategy for the fishery in the Province of Ne..,founciland a..nd La.l::.rador which would l:::e in the best interest of all involved with the fishery and in the best interest. of the Province as a whole~. tlow, Sir, that :nay appear to sound like motherhood and it. is a very wide-ranging type of resolution. no¥:.

SJ.r, a:c clle parcicular ti..::e bae~ il1 July when I moved t..'la.t Private Mem.bers" -ail~, -I dl.d. l.'t. m tne 'Sl.nc:-ere' nope·"artt:_ -·.n::m, "'llS~'Q:l.U-,a:t co.l-leaqyes, th.a't. a.l.l members of this House of Asse=ly \o'Ould, J..."'l fact, allow a wide~ranqing debat.e on all aspects of ~~e fishery. The reason, at ~~t time, Sir, vas very simple. Up to ~~at pcin't. in time, aroW'I.d July and. for the creceCin9' .... year or tvo, there 't<lere numerous and monumental announcements and sta't.ements: made by t..'le previous Minister of Fisheries, Mr.

Walter Carter, and ~'le administration on matters regarding the fisheries of this ProviOce. It ~uld t:.a.ke me, Sirl a full twney m.inu't.es to just l.is't. off the headings of the announcements that were made by the previous Minister of Fisheries regarding the fishery development t."tis pile in t.~s Province. To give you an example, Sir, 3117

November 20, 1979 Tape NO. 1246 N'M • l M!L F. ROWE: here represents simply t~e news clippings of the seatements made by the previous Minister of Fisheries and the administration as far as fisheries programmes were concerned. There were some other thirty-seven major announcements made by the Minister of Fisheries.

Now, Sir, these announce~ents were so numerous, so confusinq, so redundant, so contradictory over the past year or two,that it would have been just as well, Sir, if the Minister of Fisheries, or somebody, had to have held up the Rorschach ink blots and asked the Minister of Fisheries to give his first impressions of what he sav.

And that was the genuine reasqn why we moved this particular motion in the House oe Assembly, to give all members of t~e House of Assembly an opportunity to debate the announcements that were being made inside and outside of the Rouse of Assembly by the previous Minister of Fisheries and the previous Premier, and ~-c:¢K~ ;:rese:TC.,~'i"t:"'-.w:i""t~u-:.-~"'"~d.--:.-~-!-'"'i~"'· ,~.;;"~­ a si~etre and 9enuine coneern on our par~. Sut the reason now, Sir, has completely chanqed.

Since the last election it seems as i~ we have had a complete moratorium on any actions or any announcements, or any interests, or any emphasis on the fisheries.

And the Premier can get up all he vishes and say that we are trying to divert the administration away from the emphasis on the fisheries to that on oil and qas,but the fact of the matter remains, Sir, that this administration, since the last election, has dropped the emphasis on the fisheries and switched completely to oil and gas and this is having a severe psychological impact UFOn the fishermen of this Province, and the people who are interested in the fisheries o! this Province. 3118

November 21, 1979 Tape No. 1246 NM - 2 MR. F. ROW!: So, Sir, ehe first reason when ! originally ~oved the motion 1 was that there was such a multiplicity of announcements being ~ade ~y the previous Minister of Fisheries, and ~y the administration opposite, that! simply wanted to give every ~ember of the House of Assembly an opportunity to comment on these various announcements. Now, the reason is quite the opposite. It 4ppears as if the han. members opposite have dropp~d their emphasis on the fisheries. We have a part-time Minister of Fisheries, no reflection on the han. member for Naskaupi (Mr.

Goudie), but the matter is he does have a portfolio, which is an important one, and onto that has been added the fisheries portfolio. We have a part-time Acting Minister of Fisheries

whereas before, the prev1ous Premier suggested that the !isheries was so important that he himself, the Premier of this Province, felt that he should handle the portfolio of the Fisheries Uepartment. the previous Premier, ~oores. Ahd then ~e vent through a whole series of fisheries ministers, Chaeaeman~ Collins, Crosbie, Carter, and I am sure I am ~issing - and Moores - a numbe: of them. AN HON. M~MBER: The gear scandal. MR. F. ROWE: And now we end up, Sir, close to l980,with a part-time Minister of Fisheries.

I think, Sir, that the government should be held accountable for this great de-emphasis on the fisheries because there are too many questions to be answered. Sir, for example, I asked the Premier just yesterday or the day before, I cannot remember now, this is Wednesday so it had to be yesterday or the day before, what the status of the Fisheries Development Corporation of Newfoundland is? That is the corporation to co-ordinate the development of the primary landing distribution centre, 3119

November 21, 1979 Tape ~o. 1246 ~I! - 3 MR. F. ROWE: anC the ?remier =eFlied anC admitted that the status of the Nevfo~ndlane Fish Corporation, or the Fisheries Development Corporation of Newfoundland for the primary landing and distribution centre and the superport, that the progress on this !ive year plan is dependent upon a reassessment of the fish stocks in the Northern waters and of the catch~~g capacity of our trawlers. Sir, an unbelievable admission. AN RON. MEMBER: No. MR. F. ROWE: Yes. And why is it unbelievable, sir? 9ecause this year 3120

November 21, 1979 Tape 12-17 ?K • l }1::. F. Rowe: we have only 5100,000 voted for ~he superpor~ or this Fishery Development Corporation of Newfoundland,. One year ago last week, this time last week was the first arilliVersary of this great conference,Fish Is The Future,wherein Mr. Walter Car~er delivered his great speech at the Fisheries Senizr.ar and we had the strategies and programmes for the fisheries development. One year ago last week was t.he first anniversary of this great five year programme, cost:.J.ng ssco million, S250 million to come from the government - AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. F.

RO'fi'E: Let the hon. member wait! ssao million over a five year period, that is, SlOO million a year; S250 million to come from the two levels of goverr~ent and S250 million to come from private enterprise. SlOO, OQQ, And what do we see in the Budget this year, Sir? • 2 per cent of the total amount that was es~imated for the building of this superport and the whole five year programme concep~.

Sir, I found it absolutely L"'.credible that after the Provincial Government set up the canadian Kellogg Corporation,and Provincial Governmen~ Authorities, ~-~J."t.-~~""''tha:..~-~"~;~-~~~~~ c"'""'i"ldl"4'"''f"'tauif!~£o:rp __ ,tn.i~~: five year -prcqramme vas announced. S680,000 was spent to conduct a study before this five year programme was ~~ounced. A hundred or so fishermen were dragged in and. asked to look at that for t.wene.y-fou.r hours, less than twenty-four hours and approve of it., ~~ it was announced, no debate in the House of Assembly. AN HCN. ME.."tBER: Shameful! MR. F.

ROWE: And $100, 000 in the vote this year, and the Premier tells us after the expenditure of $680,000 by the Kellogg corporation and the Provincial Government Au~~orities, the fisheries authorities, two years of study S680,000, that now they are looking at the superport concept in view of the fac"C that they have to assess the fishery stocks in Northern waters arA they have to assess the ca~hing capacity of the trawler fleet. and the fishing industry .1.n general.

What a.nac.mission on the anniversay. of tl'".at great fisheries annoucement, without gecting into, Sir, the fact that nobody in this House of Assembly 3121.

November 21, 1979 Tape 1247 l'K - 2 !-4.r. F. Rowe: had ehe opportunity to put five minutes wort~ of debate into t."lat:. concept. It was announced over in the Holiday Inr., hon. members on neither side of the House had an opport:.unity to represent the views of their constituents,of the fishermen, of the fish plant owners, of the fish plant workers, or of anybody, of the businessmen of this Province. It was a fait accompli. And now, Sir, we are '-I'Or.dering whether,in fact, the departure of one Walter Carter represents the departure of that five year plan.

That is one question that I would like the hon. ~~e Premier to answer during this debate, •N"hether there is any coincidence between the departure of Walter Carter and the impending de~arture or abandonment of this five year plan concept? The member for Placentia - MR. F. ROWE: Because, Sir, we certainly did not rAve the opportunity to debate it. The member for Placentia (Mr. Paeterson) raised some very good questions.

And r was out in Harbour Grace before 450 people, Sir, where ! dared to ask a few ques~ions abou~ the superport, and I was practically booed out of the place, booed out of the place- am happy '!'.0 say 1: was i.ns-er.:mental in havmq th.e government drop, whereby a foreign count..'""Y would have taken over one of the major assets of the fishing industry in this Province. But, Sir, tha~ is a ~uesticn that has to be answered, the whole concept of The Fish Is The Future Five Year Programme, and the whole business 3122

November 21, 1979 Tape ~lo. 1248 !-!!-!. - l HR. F. ROWE: of thd five year programm~ and the superport concept. Sir, the second of a hundreC and some odd items or topics that I could raise in introducing this bill is the situation with respect to the Fisheries Loan Board. Sir, it was reported that $54 million worth of loans had been approved in the past two years, that is $49 million more than had been approved in the previous twenty-three years by the :isheries Loan Board. It has been reported, but nobody on the government side has denied it, nor supported it, or agreed with it. But we want answers.

There is a terrific ba=klog, Mr, Speaker, a fantastic backlog of applications before the Fisheries Loan Board. Loans have been approved 1 fishermen are out looking for boats, having boats built and no money is available to them. Young people have entered the fishing industry, have had loans approved and now no money for their boats. And new people have entered the f1She-ry 'a-n."d. na~ a.PtH:t.t:a"el.'o-n~ l:'n ""ane. ~ot."1h:• hAd no word back from it.

There have been accusations of political influence coming from people on the boarcl and then somebody had the gall to blame the fishermen for approving too many loans, making it too easy. And Mr. Carter, before he departed, Sir, suggested as a result of a question I put to him on August 9th., that the Fisheries Loan Board should get extra funds to take care of this particular emergency. MR. RIDEOUT: MR. F. ROWE: That is why they got rid of him.

Sir~ the Fisheries Loan Board is in a complete shambles, chaos, and I think, sir, there is something here that warrants a full-fledged enquiry into the operation of the Fisheries Loan Board and why it 3123

November 21, 1979 Tape ~o. 1248 N!-1 - 2 MR. F. ROfi'E: is in the total oess it is in and why we have the fishermen in the total confusion tha~ they are in as a result of the activities of the Fisheries Loan Soard over the past year or two. Now, Sir, I would like, Mr. Speaker, to point out a number of topics that I would like to have hon. members allude to before I take my seat because I understand I only have about a couple of more minutes. But, Sir, I would like for somebody to explain to this House how we can have the fish and chips kid cominq down here before the last provincial election- Mr.

McGrath said, "I have the fish, Mr. Crosbie has the chips". Well, he has the chips like a poker player and he wants to keep them. And we were told, "Elect a Provincial PC Government here to co-operate with the F~deral PC Government in Ottawa and all these problems with respect to jurisdiction over fish will be solved automatically.'' Well, S~r.

I need not remind Births of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, of Nova Scotia, of PEI, of Quebec or Nev Brunswick 7 and the ministers and the Premier should have reali~ed that before they made such irresponsible statements suggesting that all of our problems could be solved with respect to jurisdiction over the fisheries by simply electing two PC governments, one in Ottawa and one in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Sir, I would like non. members t~ allude to the compatability between oil and gas exploitation and a continuation of the fisheries, with the preserv3tion of the inshore fisheries, particularly as it relates to the Northern cod stocks. ! would like hon. members to allude to the fact that the Small Craft Harbours Division does not have a cent at the present time and are not supporting 31.24

November 21, 1979 Tape No. 1248 NM - 3 MR. F. ROWE: Canada Works projects. I would like hen. members to allude to the over-the-side fish sales, a good temporary measure but there should be something, a long-term plan so that we will not have to have over-the-side fish sales. I would like hon. members to allude to freezer trawlers off our Coas~. to the consequences of the 200 mile limit off the United States where eighty per cent of our fisheries market is. Once they start developing their own fisheries, ~r.

Speaker, I would submit that we will have to start developing markets in the European Countries and other countries of the '"orld. we have to look at the pOssible consequences of the multi-national corporations creeping into this Provinee 1 gear damaged by whales. Sir, obviously I do not have enough time to 3125

November 21, 1979 Tape 1249 t:C- l MR. F. ROW'"E: even reaci out the list of topics that I would like to have discusseci on this particular hill, but. may I conclucie by simply saying titis, that it is a sincere desire on our part,in moving t.~is particular resolution in t.lote hoFe that. hon. members of this Hcluse wi~l support. it so that everybody on both sides of the House will have a full-fledged opportunity to debate aU aspects of the fisheries in this Province because it is probably t.'le single and ~!- i:nportant. aspect of the economy of this Province.

And there have been so many announcements made without benefit of debate, with a. sudcien svitch. a.nd a moratorium, wit:.."l no announce~Mncs and. no apparent. interest in t.~e fisheries, tha~ I t."link every :nember of this House should have an opportunity to debata t.i.is particular thing fully, and I sincerely hope that. the ~nembers opposite will accept this bill in this particular spirit and will support it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: HR. SPEAKER: {Simms} MR. J • CARrEl\' Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear! The hon. the member for St. John's :ior-"..h. Mr.

Spea.ker, I have seldom heard quite """' ... l!Nd.;~~~~~~~~,~-,~<=;~A~,;~-~~' I. nAll:e it is so~t unparliamant.ary - ~. NEAP.Y: savory is for veqetarians- MR. J, CARTER: The hon. member should be struck by llg:.htn.ing for making a remark like that. At least then we could say he died of the clap. Now, Mr. Speaker, as I was saying, I have never heard so much. trash put together in twent:y minutes, a disjointed attack on two of the finest federal ministers that canada has ever had and just a complete misunderstanding of the ..,hole problem.

I do not really blame the hen. member, he is mired in misinformation and wallowing in error, as usual. But there are some points that should be remembered. The first thing is that this government is cert:.ai.l'lly not. 3126

Nove:lbe: 2l , 1979 Tape 1249 :::c - 2 MR. J. CARTER: neglecting fish fo: oil and gas. It is a red herring - pa;cdon the pun - that t.."le :nembers are t..-rying to have the public believe. Wha't has happened, Mr. Speaker, is :hat the fish stocks have to be limited; there has to be a quota established, which has been established, and the fish stocks are quietly multiplying. Now fish do not write editoria.ls AN liON. MEMBER: (Inaudible} fish do. MR. J. CARTER: aut the fish are t..~ere quietly multiplying and tb.e ~rost reliable yardstick for that is that the size of the fish is increasing.

I Ut told that as a fish population is decimated, the average si.:e of the fish decreases, a.nd t..'"l.e si.:e t~f codfish has been decreasing for the last twenty years, I suppose. 9ut only lately, it seems to have registered a slight increase in average size, not enough yet to relieve our fears t..'lat the stocks are not seriously depleted, but it does give us some cause to hope. Now, unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, ..,hen Canada t.ook cont...--ol of t..'"le 200 mile limit, she did not take control of the Continental Shelf.

Now, tb.e Continental Shelf sometimes extends 'l'he problem there is that th.e offsho-re :aplin stoc:k.a;,whidl appa.rent:.ly are not related to the inshore c:apll.'l stocks, the ones that come in to cur shores every June, sore of drift in and out: of our jurisdiction, in and out of the 200 mile limit. In fact, t..'ley spend as muc.1. time outside our jurisd.ie-..ion as Chey do inside, and foreign fleets can quite legit.i.mately come and scoop them up ·,.rhen th.ey are outside our jurisdietion.. There is not a thing we can do al::lout it..

So the only · defencB that. we have, the only bargaining point, is to offer th .. em some • I quota rights i.nsiCe our 200 mile Umit in exchanqe for t..'lem accepting a qucta on :..le d.ee~Sea eaplln stocks so that these extre:nely valuable fish wUl r :at Oe decimated, because once they go, th.ey break t...,_e food chain and all other stocks will vanish. And this is why the :oreign fleets come close to our shores and are W"elcomed and allowed and given a qucta, why th.e Russian fleet is accepted into Canadian ports, 3127

Nove~~er 21, 1979 ':'ape 124S EC - J !1R. J , c.\R'l'ER: why the Spaltish and .?or:.uguese flee:.s are still given rights, and sot:e other fleets. There is an 3128

November 21,19i9 Tape No. 1250 AE-1 ~R.J.CAFTEP.: additional reason to, ~r. Spea~er, ~~d ~~ae is that some of ~~ese eeunt::ies l:e~-ong or are on the frinc;e of the t.'lird world a."ld Canada gives very little in the ...,ay of foreign aid and this is a type of foreign aid that we should give. I do not think we should feel to selfish about it. We are blessed with a very wealthy resource just of our shores and it is only right and proper that we should share some of it with ~'le less fortunate countries of ~~is world. '!'here is some hope th.at some of t.l-je problems of eontrolling the life cycle of certain types of fish will be solved. I th.ink there is an

article in the £ven.l;!'lcr Teleoram today that some prog~ess has been made wi~, sal~~n hatcheries and young sal~Dn fry. It is quite possible that the ?roblems of lobster hatching will be solved and we ean look forward to very well stocked lobster beds. But for the hen. members opposite to get up and just use this as an excuse to tear into governments, ~oth provincial and feCeral, I think is unworthy of them and I hope when the hen. membe:: for La.Poile {Hr .Neary) gets up we will hear the ~irst statesman­ like speech of his life.

It wi~l be a rev~lation but wn are all lookinq tor.1ard to !:t anrl·J: am sure .:.n a few -mcments he will ge:t to hi.s .feet and praise our two mini.ste:rs. the Minister of !'.i.s:h'!!rles {Mr.Goudie) and the Minister of finance (Dr. Collins) and the new :onservative gove!T'.ll!ent: that looks now, since toCay 1 s ne-.o~s, to be in power for a considerably long period of time. MR.SP::AY:ER: (Baird) MR.~ARY: ~ank you. The ~e~ber for LaPoile. Mr.

Speaker, it is beeot\ing increasingly obvious, Sir, ~'lat me~bers on the opposite side of the House, as inc!icated by the gentleman . ..,.ho just spoke on behalf of the governmP.nt, knc.'IW' verJ little and care less about the fishe:::y in this Province. !-f.ost of ~"lem represent urban districts in the Province, distric':s ~~at are located en t.'le Trans ... canada H:iqhway. are not familiar with the fishing industry and could not care less about it. ~y hen. frienc!~~~e 312!3

t!ove!'i'.t:er 21, 1979 ':ape !lo • 1.25 0 me::nbe.rs 1 t'esolution is absolutely correct · .. :hen he states t:-:a~ ':!"lis government is !::einc;: a..--td ':\as !::een for the last couple of years 1 flushed in t:te direction of oil. All they c:a."'l. think about is oil and all of o~~er natural resourcestinc:luding our most tasic: industry, ~~e fisherJ,iS being neglected, dc•«ngraded and overlooked =y the government.

Mr. £peaker, !irst of all ! ~ant to congratulate my hon. friend for introducing this resolution at ~~is very itr:porta.r.t time in the history of New!ouncUanC wher. we are talking so muc~ aCout offshore oil drilling and the possibility of a ccrr.rnercial strike of oil and gas. !low, Mr.

Sf:eak.er, we are hearing so ::tuch aCout oil and qas these days that Hewfoundlanders, especially t..".e fishe~en in this Province, are beginning to believe ~~at there is nothing else the goverr.:nent is conce:ned about. ~lo<;.hinq else counts in t:.is Province except oil and gas. ~verJthing else is being pushed in the tac~qround and ever]~~ing else is heing neglec~ed.

T~at is ~~e poliC"/ t.~at t.i.is goverr.n'!ent has :,een following now for ~~.e l3.st t-,...o or ~~ree or four years and problbly ~o~e so si~ce ~i.e oil sheik <,.,'t~l"'''ftffe~ ,-,~~l-~llr"~"En:""tri~"tU~~vrn"et-;-~ '""'ve"::-crenC"t.r;e ~cores' adminis~ra~ion. ~is qen~leman,when ~e was ~~nister of ~ines an~ Energy 1oanaged to make ~is mark in t.~is Province talking about offshore oil and gas and his policy today in that direction is ~ore pronounced t.i.at it has ever been and the fishe~en are beginning to feel, like all other !lewfou.."'l.dlanders, ~~at tl'~ey ll'e !:leinq left out, ~'lat the government is not lookinq after what it has, that everything is bein~ shoved aside by the newly~born oil sheiks in Eastern Canada.

Mr. Speaker, en thSs side of the House, I think I can speak for all members, we hope ~~at t.,ere is ccmmercial qas and oil off ou: shore. 3130

~ov~er 21, 1979 Tape No. l~Sl so - 1 >!R. s. """"'" : We are not knocking the drilling for oi!. ami gas but we want to remind the government c.."lat t..~ere a..re na.tUial resources in this Prcvinc:e that. are just:. as important as oU and gas, even though oil has been referred to as black gold 1 r t..~e renewable resources, the principle one of which is our fishery. It is a friqhtening t..1.oughe, M.r.

Speaker, it is a frightening t..~ught indeed to reali:e,for people of this Province to reallz.e, that wit..~ all of the activity offshore, with all the oil tankers t..ltat are passing our coast. everf day, that. a major oil spill, a blowout in one of these wells, i! indeed oil is there. or an accident off our coast could wipe out ~e fishery overnight, could wipe it out in total or in part. our most basic industry, something that has given our people a livelihood, praccically the -..hole population of the Provinee year in and year out for almost 500 years, could be wiped out. overnight by a major oil spill or even a medium sized oil spill.

MR.. '!ROMS : says t.ha. t. is a chance we have t.o take • ~. 'S • NE1\lU : t.+;.a. t is a chance we have "----:u. 'iltl:n.tne-t '~-sa."J"$'~""' 1;:a"'4'~-. ~o ~e~ We~l# it is ~ big ~ ~~nee co take a.nd it is about time, Mr. Speaker, that. the government told the people 1 especially ~~e fishermen, the plant workers and the plant owners in t.'lis Province t..~e real t...-uth.

And the trut:.h is, Sir, that there is no technOlogy available today, no technology available on the face of the eart:.h even though the government, this government here,· have told, have said inside of this House and outside of the aous8 and the Canadian COast Guard has reiterated what this government:. has said and the oil eompanies have also said it 1 that they have spent millions of dollars on the latest ~echnology available in the -..orld to try and eope with a major oil spill off the coast of Newfound~and but the technology is not avail.able.

Everybody forgets the little footnote and the 'but:.' t..'lat:. is thrCNn in. There is no technology available on the faee of the earth t.o eope with an oil spill off t..~e coast of Ne...,foundla.nd, Whet..~er it ee from a tanker or 3131

November 21, 1979 Tape :io. 1245 so -2 MR. S • NEARY: from a blowout. in one of the wells. That was confirmed ~ me :ecently by th.e canadian Coast Guard and yet the qovernment. plows on foolhardily, putting all their eggs in one basket, gambling !iewfoundlanci' s fut:ure on the offs.'lore without issuinc; an ultimatum to the oil companies and. saying to the oil companies, '"Look it .. here !U'.

Imperial Oil or Gul.f/ who~ver is doing the d.rilling, 'if you in any way damage t.."le environment, if you pollute the waters around t:.his !sland or around the cease of Labrador, i! you in any •t~ay destroy our natural ha..bitat or damage our natural habiea.t, then you are going to ha.ve to suffer the consequences". ! have not hear that itind of a.n ulti:tat.um from the M.inist:.er o.t: Consumer Affairs (Mrs.

Newhook) or f:om the Premier of this Province who seecs eo be cuddling up to the oU compa:'lies and is being pushed into the \lo'Orld of oil by t:J.e big oil magnates arA by influences outside of this Province, from Aberdeen and other parts of t...~a world. MR. STAGGt That is irrelevant. MR. S. NEAR~:: It is relevant, Sir. Pollute our MR .. "mOMS: Our £is.ne.ry is irre..leva..nt:, is it? MH.~ S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the statement I just. made is not a exaggeration, it. is a statement. of fact. .. , We saw an example last year when t:.he Kurdistan b.roke i."l. half in the Gulf of st.

Lawrence and as I said in this House before, if the wind a.nd tide had been in the direction of Mewfoundla.nd t.:le fishery .in the Gulf, on the SouthYest corner of the Province, especially on the Burgee Banks, \Kiul.d have been drastically affected, it would. have been disasterous for the fishery on "the Southwest coast. Fort:.unately, t.~e Yi.nd was in the other direction, • 3132

Nove:r..ber 11, 1979 Ta?e 1252 PK - l Mr. N"earv: and we did not get the ef=ects of the Kurdis~an accident until the Spring ~f ~,e y~ar when the salmon fishermen put ou~ their nets, !n the S~er when the fishe~er. star~ed fishL~s. the inshore iish~en along the Southwest Coast started to get these big blobs of black zubstance in their nets, these big blobs of sticky goa4y oil tr.at ruined their gear and their nets, and tr~t affected the bird sanctuary down in Cape St.

Mary's, where it got into the feathers of ~lote birds, ar.d il::mobli:ed the birds, they could not fly, and they e~ther s~rved,to death or smothered in the oil. MR. STAGG: That is irrelevant. MR. NEAR'!: And the hon. member for Stephenville {Hr. Stagg) says, that is irrelevant. And government, Mr. Speaker, has continued t:o sidestep this issue. And if the hon. member for Bay de Verde (Z..tr. :.

Rowe) proves nothing else by bringing in this Resolution, it gives us an opportunity to stress and lay ~~e emphasis on the potential, the possibility of ....-iping out our fishery or drastically affecting the fi.shery by an oil spill off our Coast wi~~ all the activity that is going on i.n ofJ!shore dril~ing. and aJ..l the activity of ships moving :=ack a.."le! forth tr~ough the Gulf of St. Lawrence and passing our shores everyday. It is absolutely scandalous the way ~~e government have gotten away with it. It is cri.11ina.l the . ..,.ay they have sidestepped this issue. Mr.

Spea.~er. as I say, I am not knocking the offshore, because it is going to go ahead anyway, no ~~tter what I say in t..~s House. The oil companies with thei:: big lobby and the so-called intellects over at .Memorial, and the pseudo experts that are springing up all over the place, and the consultants that are sel~ing their wares to the Newfoundland Goverr.ment, they are carrying on such a lobby that no matter what I say or we say in this House, they are going to go ahead witl"". tl'..eir p::ogramme and ~>teir projects anyway. But, ~.

Speaker, one thing that I contend is this 1 that the government should have the courage ~o come out and say to the people of this Province, yes, we are cuddling up to the oil 3133

Novembe: 21, 1979 Tape 1252 PK - ."!r. Neary: companies arD we are being pushed in~o the world of oil, and we are going to become ~he oil sheiks and the oil kingdom of the Eastern Seaboard of North America, but we have to ~ell you what:. price you ma.y have t:e pay, ;.;hat the consequences :ni.gh~ be. The consequences might be that you might wake up some morning without a .fishery in t.:,is Province. You might wake up some morning and find that the waters around this Island are polluted, ar.d our "Nildlife, and cur bird life are being threatened or wiped out by an oil spill. These are the consequences, Sir.

And, ~I. Speaker, if the government wants to proceed along the read if they want to carry on their policy of putting all their eggs in one basket:. and not worr1ing about anything else but oi~ ehen they sr~uld warn tr-e people and tell the people of this Province what price they may have ~ pay for the offshcre drilling that is going on at the present time. As I say, Sir, the government seems to be puetL~g all its eggs in one basket, and it is ;~~ling Newfour~land's fut~e on oil,on a cornmerical discovery offshore.

And every man and ....oman and child in this Province should reali:e that apart from the soc~al arA economic upheaval that this will cause in Newfoundlandt that there are rl.SJICS J.nVOl.Vett, 'our ~m'\O.Le ~l.~t."~l;:C.-~~"tr.~ So while ~~e Premier and the ;overnment ~e gambling, they should point out to the people of this Province the consequences of this gamble.

Now1 I do not want to dwell teo much on that, Sir, although I could take a whole week to talk about pollution, to talk about the potential pollution, the possibility of wiping out our fishery. aut it is a very difficult thing to do in twenty minutes in this hen. House, Mr. Speaker, and. there are other things that I want to toss out for the consideration 3134

Nover-.Oer :n, 19i9 Tape lio. lZ53 :::~; - 1 :lR. S. !:EJ\P.Y: of ~erLers,~p~ from ~he ?clluticn problem.· .. ,;hich is there. It is :eal! Government should not burJ its head in the sand, it should face ~.:p to this problen .. T.an fashion anC: t.ell t.he people J tell the people what the consequences tr.i.;!ot be. Never trJ.nd t:yir.g to do a snow job and a con jcb!

Well, tu...""n on your television and your raCio,and the press swallow this ~p,they take it hook, line and sinker, scme twirk, twillick, sctre jerk eo~Jlng in fro~ Aberdee~, outside of this Province and saying, 'Oh, Newfoundlanders, C:O not make of:!shore rigs in ~<ewfoundland. :-!y advice to :rou is, Co not Jr.ake offshore rigs in !;ewfo'.!ndland, ~ake thet:~ socewhere else because you are. going to have a labour shortage in :-:e\<.·founCland'. Just i~agine, Mr.

Speaker, sot:~e jerk con:ing in and telling us, and oc.r Province with recorC. uner.ployttent, we never had so r.:uch unen;::loYf:".ent: in oc.r ..,-hole historf, Co not rr.ake oil rigs in Hewfounc!land I"ake ther:: sorrewhere else because you are nee going to have ~he lal:our - only five minutes left here and I ~ha~ so muc.~ to talk about - there is going to be a shortage of labour in .>iewfouneland. i·;hat kind o! foolish nonsense is that? ·But it has happened! I heard it.

The hon. gentleman was there- paid his SlOO ar.d sat in on that seminar with the other oil shieks. 11.11 t."ley needed at that se.r.i.nar ...,as their turbar.s. MR. J. CARTER: MR. 5. NEt,P.Y: afford t.~e $100. 'You wel:'e: then. No, I was not there, Sir, I could not But, !-~. Speaker, t.."lere is anot.lo;er rr.atter I want to talk about before the <:Uillotine, before this new rule t..l-tat we have where me~r..b-ers are on~y allow-ed to speak for twenty tr.inutes, before the guillotine, the axe falls on r:trf head.

I want to talk. about ';he ne...,· policy of Brother McGrath up there in Ottawa, o: opminq up t.'1e Gul~ to the big Cragqers and the big trawlers which is going to C.rastically affect the inshore fishery in t.'lat Province. An.cL Mr. Speaker, I have talked to some of the cotr.panies who will be the beneficiaries of these drag;-crs getting into the Gulf. I have talked to one principal of Fishery ProCucts who is ver"J concernec!.He saic!, 'Sure, we are qoing to benefit by it, '""e are qoing into the Gulf, ...,.e are going to send our draggers in there and 3135

~:ovei:-J:;er 21, !9 79 J-!R. S. :-jEJ..P.Y: we are gcinq to catch t.:"le fish, l:ut in ~ opinion. ~~e culf is ~einq overfished. Just iragine one of ~~e principals of a company that is going to benefit by opening up ~~e qul! to the draggers, who probably lobbied for itf,...il1 say to me privately, 'I am very concerned about ~~e gulf, it is being overfished: And it is being overfished ar.d it is going to drastically affect the inshore fisl-..ery in that area which is unique in Newfound.land becal·se it is year-.round. Now, Hr.

Speal:er, I have to switc.'l because I only have a couple of t'!'.ore oinutes 1 !,:.,n:. there is a matter that has been setting the devil in rr.e for sc!"'e tir-e and setting the C.evil in Uewfoundlanc:!ers along the Southwest coast of this Province) Z:.."".c! :hat is what is goinq on in St. Pierre. I cannot put ~/ finrer en it, I do not knew what it is 1 but Ne'<~foundland fishermen and plant owners are very concerned abour foreign draggers and ships !ishing inside our 200 mile limit. There are not allOW'ed to put thei: catches ashore in !te....,foundland so they go down to St..

Pierre and put. ~"teir cat:.c:hes ashore 1 transship it and send it off to wherever its going. It is t:.i:re ~~e govern~nt took a leek at that. situat.icn to see what is goinq on in St. Pierre. I am told, ~r. Speaker, that ~;e activity in St. Pierre is out of this world. They cannot Co it in cana.ea., they cannot Co it. .in Newfouncila.nd~ they !i'O eo St. Pier:e and do it and it is ti:re we irrosed penalities on t.~ese forei;n t:ra~rs a."1C ships that are goir.g down to St. Pierre anC transshipping t.l-teir fish back here to whatever cou.t'lt:y the draggers and the ships are fron. So, ~r.

Speaker, I would assume ~~at roy time is al:::ost up. ! wish I haC a !'ew hours or a few C.a::rs to talk a.boct ~"le fishery. But th.e fishery is being neglected, Sir, t.~e goverr.:::ent h.:tve no fisher/ poUcy, they are flying by the seat of t.."leir pants at the present time 1 and a ~stly example of that is the Fisheries Loan Board where we are told it went bust because of political interence, because ~'le govern­ rent spent all its money before ~e last provincial general elect.ion. T~ere is no fishe:::y policy, Hr. Speake::-, the gcvern:--.ent today comnot think of anything but oil~ Oil! Oil!

Oil! - t;.hat is all they ean ~;ink al:out. ~min~ noon and night all you can hear en the radio and r02aC in tb.e 3136

November 21, 1979 Tape 9o. 1254 NM - 1 !iR. ~tEARY: newspapers is oil, and all our other natural resources are being neglected, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Main-Bell Island. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. DOYLE: The hen. member for Harbour Hear, hear! Your Honour in speaking to the action put forth by the hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe), I would like to say that the estimates of the Department of Fisheries for 1979-1960- are a very elear reflection of the government's confidence in the future of our fishery. and its determination to provide for its continued growth in our Province.

Now, I think that it is fairly obvious, Mr. Speaker, that the government has a definite strategy !or the development of our ~ishery in Newfoundland and Labrador when you take into account the estimates for that department only since 1977. Your Honour, I would like to ~"~"'f"J.'e:'e"'t:~-c:rr "lii."' tdtiUfl!f'rt't-""'t'ti."~~U"r't"'.,;.~~frtl""'i:'n"'-lll!'"i"Sin:frift_ in the estimates of 1977-1979, which at that part~cular point in time vas approximately $24 million, and that, Sir, up to that moment vas the largest ever projected.

By comparison the 1976-77 expenditure was SlS.S million, ·an increase of approximately $9 million which was indeed quite a significant increase and onetof course,which the government should be very proud of. Nov, in keepi~g with that priority that government is placing upon the fisheries development, the amount voted in the Fisheries estimates was increased from $24,200,000 in 1978-79, to over S30.S million this year. Taking into account 1 of course,the funding of the Fisheries Loan Board, which the hen. member referred to, it will mean 3137

November 21, 1979 Tape !to. 1254 U!'! - 2 MR. OOYLZ: that by the end o! the current fiscal year the agency, or that agency, the Fisheries Loan Board, will have provided a total o! $53 million in support of the fishing industry since 1975. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. DOYLE: to me ~ON. MEMBER: MR. DOYLE: Hear, hear: And that Your Honour appears (Inaudible) government standing. That appears to me to be the workings of a very responsible government, dedicated to the preservation of our natural resources. Mr. Speaker, the fishery is the largest employer in our great Province, apart from government.

Now, I stand to be corrected but I feel reasonably sure that it is fairly accurate to state that at the present time there are approxi~ately 27,000 people employed direc~ly in our fishing industry and I am told that it would also be reasonably realistic to state that ··-:ry -'•t:n..,w·~e-nli-·"1:1! ''11'i-S,"'~~-.-v.t;-"ll ~""~a. ""~\1. :;·-a-':! _,l4·o-,''O'Oti'tnro'P·-._.,. employed Ci~eetly in the fish~ng indus~ry. the end of 1985. That is ty In addition, those who hithertofore had been employed only on a seasonal basis, are now finding work on·a more permanent level, for a much longer period of t~me.

And that again, in my opinion, is not the workings of a government devoted mainly to the development of offshore oil, ~t is the work~ngs of a government with a definite plan and a definite goal and a definite policy, to lead the people of Newfoundland into the 1980's. No~ one of the major development strategies for the fishery is to encourage further processing of our fish before it leaves the Province of Newfoundland. 3138

~ovember 21, 1979 Tape So. 1254 NM - 3 MR. DOYLE: Uow, in keeping wi~h that po1ic~ government has introduced programmes in the past, are presently introducing programmes and I have no doubt that they will be introducing programmes in the future to assist eish processors in the acquisition of new machinery because of the great demand placed upon i~. It is also interesting to note that at this point the government, in order to stimulate future investment in the processing of fish, has raised :he level of assistance from SSO,OOO to $150,000 per project in this Province.

Again 1 the workings of a government with a definite plan and a definite policy and a definite strateqy for the fishing industry in Newfoundland. 31.39

November 21, 1979 Tape 1255 t:C - l ~R. OOTI ;-: Now, one aas only eo s-:;op for a moment and reflect on tb.e number of fish plants and cold storage facilities that have been built in our Province in t.'le last five years to ac!ec;,uately assess the degree of impor~ance t.'lat ti'le qove::nNnt is placing upon the fishery.

Now, getting down to a mora local level, in my district of Harbour Main - Bell Island, alone, one of !rrf constituents had enough confidence in t.'le Gcverrnr.ent of Newfount!land last year to invest a very huge dollar in establishing a fish plant in Holyrood, and t."lat, I might add, is now employing from forty to fifty people a.nd it is alive and doing well. Anot:..'ler fish plant is about t:o be es1:ablished in the community of Harbour Mair. in approxi:nately two or three tt~:Jnths from now.

Again, t.."lat de:nonstrat.es ~"te type of confidence that t.'le people are displayir.g in government poliC'J in relation to the fishery. Now, t.'lese two particular plants had to be established because of t."le growi.<tg interest in the fishery in that. ·~•lJCt·;C:~ c:m t ;:;oJ),.JUv_.~"- ... And now .• -.the peoo.la .of Bell I£J.and, through 'the Sell Island Da-valopment rlasoc:ia't.ion. hAve 1U.de application for a tventy-five year lease on a federal fisheries shed on Bell Island anti tiley intend t:.o curn ':hat into a small fish plane, as well.

It is absolutely ama.Ung to consider t."le ad.vance.me.nts of the fishery over t.i.e lase five yean: when you consider that in TJrf district, be0>1een the conmn.:.nities of Marysvale and Holyrood, only a taw p:8ople OJuld be counted as fisher::Mn five years ago, and today .:...}ust a few years_latel:-~~ ·we hAve approximately 200 to 250 people who are actively and directly e::ployed in the industry on a pa.rt-ti:ne and a full-time hasis.

That is an ind.ieation. of an encouraging foreea.st for the fishery in years to cotllla. lt might also be interesting to note at this point that the Budget of 1969 - 1970, _ the Department of Fisheries 3140

November 21, 1979 Tape 1255 E:C: - 2 MR. OOYLE: E.stimaus totalled $3,801,400. That was in 1969- 1970. Now1 in 1970 and 1971 it went even lower- $2,307,000. Again, that is qw.ee a comparison when you take intc consideration the face that:. the goverruoent of today voted in approximately S29 million in the 1979 - 1980 Budget, and t.h.a.t, in my opinion, is a very clear indi.c:ation of a definite plan and a c:le!'inite stra.eegy for ehe Newfoundland fisher/.

So, in summation, ! would. like to say t..'lat it is indeed encouraging to be associated with a government \these interu't. in the fishery is not demonstrated by empty promises but it is demcnse:rated by a genuine a.od a deep-rooted conce::n for t.'te fishery here in Newfoundland. SOME HON. ME.!1BE:a5 : Hear, hear: The hon. the member for Bonavista No~~. MR. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think it is signi!icant that the member speaking for t..~e ot.~ttr side in reply to this very important rascludon, maybe the most:. important resolution t.."lat we are goi."1q to d.e.baee in this present sitting of the House .. I think it is part-ti.ma Fisheries Minister (Mr.

Goudie) i..s no"t in the H.ouse, a.nd t.hAt the Premier, who has taken it on himself to act as Fisheries !'tinis't.er any t.ime a question is a.slc.eci, does not consid.er this resolution important enough to be present in the House or to ent.er into the debate. anci that when we get involved- the lead off speaker on our sid.e is our fisheries ,- spokesman, a member who represenes a great fishl.nq district, as cio ma.·w of the people on t..!Ua side of the House, .ihO~ is t.~e lead off speaker tb8 now Acting !ii..--ti.ste.r of Fisheries r Who is the person who responds ---·~-- on .behalf of the Goveounent: to the lead off position?

The hon. :nember who is in ch&rg'e of the savoury farm, the member for St. John 1 s North (Hr. carterl • SOME HON • ME.!iBERS : Oh, oh; 0::1 you have sometilin9. aqa.ins-: farming? MR. SPEAKER: (Siu:ms) 314:1

Nover.ber 21,19~9 ~ape ~10. 1256 AH-l ~r. Speaker, I will gladly yield i! the Minister of E:nergy would now like to make a fisheries speech., if he would like to j~F up and speak on Cehal! of the gove~~nt. SCM!: HON, ME!-$EPS : !1R.SPEAKER: {Sim:ns) continue. MR.. BAP.RY: SOME Hml. !1E.HBERS : MR. SJ!,RRY: Ch, oh! The hon. ~~~er for Bonavista North Mr. Speaker, I t.lotank the hon. tr.eir.:er. P.ear, hear! Mr.

Speaker, back in 1975 this ~overnment had t~~ opportunity - I w&s a ~~nber of the government at the time -had t.~e opportunity af putting a position to t.~e federal government, a very forceful position to ~~e federal government whi~~ was at that tire engaged in neqotiations at the Law of the Sea Conference.

A:td t.'"te position that was beina tAken )::w t:hP. fror"""""l government of t.'"te same political stripe as bon. members opposite 1 i~ ~.,at all we need go for in our Law of the Sea negotiations is a 200 mile economic zone, that th.at will be satisfactory, that t..~at will be sufficient:., that that • ..,.ill protect the fish stoek!' of t.loj,is Province from the over· fishing, the raping by the foreign fishing fleet:.s t.~at was going on at t.i.at time. We had t..i.e !iqures in f:ont of us.

We saw what was happening to t.i.e !'!.sh stodts of t..lti.s ?rov1nee because of thl!! over- fishing and we did not need any great scientific experiments on research in Ottawa or any-..rhere else 1 all you had to do was go out on the stage head and talk to the fishermen, go down and talk to the dragger crews when they came in in Maeystown or anywhere else a...'"Ound the Province, and you would find that ~i.e fishermen knew, t.i.e fisherman of this Province knew that the fish stoc:.~s were threatened, they we:e t..,reatened with extinction, going thl!! ~ay of the dodo bird.And what wes going on i:: =ttawa at that time?

I am pleased to see that the hon. t.i.e tea~er of t.'"te Opposition {Mr.Jamieson) just outside t.'"te ch~~er because the hon. Leader of t.i.e Opp<:~sittor. was: at that ti:ne a member of the Liberal government which took the position that a 200 mile economic 31.42

Tape :ro. 1256 ~1R.BJ.RP.Y: zone was sufficient to protect ou:- ~!ewfoundlanc! fish stocks. :.rcw, Mr.

Speaker, r had the opportunity at ~~at tine. of introducing a motion and by coinc:iCence ~~e ~~en Lea~er of t..lote Opposition, the present me:nber for t.lte Strait of Belle Isle: {Mr.Roberts), the then mer..ber for the Strait of Belle Isle, t.'"le Leader of t.\o;e Opposition at the tit".e supported and, in fact, we P'lt out a joint resolution - and r was jUst trying to get t..~e precise wording of the resolution, ~ut basically we submitted,jcintly from t.ltis Rouse at that time. that it was necessary for the gov~rnment of CanaCa to insure t.\o;at not just a 200 mile economic zone but control of t.~e continental :nargin, th.e continental margin which means that the tail of t..~e Grand Banks, t..lo;e Flemish Cap and all that gr~at !ishing area outside of the 200 mile econordc ::one would :,e under Canadian jurisdiction and control.

How, Mr. Speaker, t.ltat did not ccme al:out. We saw a :nealy-t::euthed Canadian delegation at the Law of the Sea Con!erence back off from going for jurisdiction over the full continental margin and they accepted a 200 :nile economic zone. Mr. Speaker, ~~at Law of the Sea conference is not yet over. ~ank God ve .now have a 'g'oVe.rt".J!'Ient in Ottawa whic..~ ! knoY will fight for Canadians, !or Newfoundlander's proper ~rotece1cn as fa~ as the tail of the Grand Banks, as far as the Flemish Cap, as far as t.~e hundreds of square ~~les. There is an area outside t..lo;e 200 mile economic zone, 3143

November 21, 1979 Tape 1257 PK - l Mr. Sarry: hen. members opposite may not know, an area larger than the landmass of this Province, Islar.d and Labrador. There is an area, a fishing area outside the 200 mile economic zone larger than the landmass of this Province. And ~~e canadian Governmen~ said, "That is all right:., we do not need. to go for jurisdiction over this. We will be able eo control that in some vague way. It will not be economic to have foreign fishing fleets out fishing there." And what happened? What has happened?

We all know ,.,.hat: has happened we saw it: Utis Slllml.er 1 the Spanish !'ishing fleeting were out: t."lere destroying t."le stocks on the Grand Banks. What was the result? The result is ~~at there is nobody able to fish out there for cod right: now on t~e Grand Banks, they had to close it. AN HCN. MEMBER: {Znaudible). MR. BARRY: The stocks are being - that is right. That is right. and we better watch the Northern cod stocks just as ~uch as we had to waech what was happening on t."le Grand Banks - SOME: HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

BAR.."-1' - when we had to standby helplessly and see a ~~L~t-__,in_,n.c,t.a.wa_.J.at the ,.fereianers do what: t.bev lJ..lted outside of the 200 :nile economic ume. Now1 I would like to see hen. members opposite get up and state what their position is, and state whether they agree with the present Leader of the Opposition in accepting that Canada sr£uld not have jurisdiction outside the 200 mile economic zone. MR. MORGAN: Let us hear the official pcsit:.ion of it. MR. BARRY: Is that what hon. me:tbers opposite believe? MR. MORGA."1: Let us hear ~~e official position of it. MR.

BAR. ttY: Is that what hon. :nemhers believe? If they do, ~~en I hope they will explain to the people of this Province why it is that they accept ~~t position? Because anybody, anybody ir.volved with the fishing il'ldustry in Newfoundland knows that it is erucially impor'tant to this Province that we have control outside the 200 mlle economic zone. It is of tremendous importance to protect and to preserve the 3144

November 21, 197~ Tape 1257 PK - 2 xr. Barr-;: cod on the Grand Sanks, the flounder. There are more species out there that - Than oil. MR. BARRY: Maybe, maybe than ~~ere is oil, we will see! We will see! I will tell you, we will never accept that canada's juris- diction with respect to the mineral resources of the seabed extends merely to the 200 ~le limit. Our position with respect to mL~era1 resources as with fish is that we must have jurisdiction out to the edge of the continental margin. !-ffi. MORGAN: It is not the Liberal policy they have in Ottawa. ~~.

BARR?: And the continental margin covers the continental shelf 1 the slope and the lie·cle rise before it slides of! int;:, the ocean depths. Now,we have had a government in the past in Ottawa 1:hat has been ~ore concerned with preserving canada's i-~ge as some great international nice guy than a ;overrunent that is interested in promoti..'1g <:he interests of canadians. Now. as Newtoundland Canadians I want to see hen. members opposite get up and denounce the posicion taken by the previous Liberal Goverr~ent in Ottawa, denounce i~!

If you have ~he courage of your .ccnviction 1 ;et up and denounce it because that was a dasurdly, dast:ardly, I say, Mr. Speaker~ step for a goven4~ent in Ottawa to take - to let ~~e foreigners do what they wanted to do outside ~~e 200 ~ile economic :one. ~e see already in less than - what, four years? - we see over£ishL,q and stocks threatened with extinction. If they had listened a~ the time, Mr. Speaker, to ~he position that we put to them we ~ould not have had :hat probla~. And I would like to just briefly to quote, !i.r. Speaker, from a speech I made on March 6th., 1975, more than four years ago,Mr.

Speaker, more than four ' years ago we C~ttempted to bring this to the attent:.ion of a federal govern- ment, a fedfzal government that closed its ears in Ottawa. They would not pay any att .. mtion to th.is - and you wonder at times why it is that the or~inary person in the street gets frustrated when he cannot get his views known to government. Why do they get fr~strated? Well, ~. Speaker, when you look. 3145

November 21, 1979 Tape No. 1258 GH-1 XR. BARRY: ancl you see i~ the ~ecord of debates of this House of Assembly, you see hen. members getting up from both sides of the House and even with a joint, combined resolution supporting Canadian jurisdiction out beyond the 200-mile economic :one we could not get the attention of the clowns that were then in there in Ottawa.

We could not get their attention, so how can the ordinary person, the ordinary man in the street, expect to get the ear of government, the ear of the !ederal Government, when the combined weight of government and opposition, the combined weight of government and opposition could not get the then government in Ottawa to pay attention~ Mr. Speaker, it is enough to make you wonder what is happening, what is happening to democracy. Thank God that there has been a significant change in the last year, and we now have a government in Ottawa on the right track, going in the right direction. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: ~ ,MR__, J!U.RY ~ Hear, hear! 1975, vhy we were support~nq this reso~ution which urqed the Federal Government to extend its jurisdic~ion beyond the 200-mile :one. r said 1 "There are valuable fish stocks, valuable spawning grounds, outside 200 miles. In some cases, it is necessary to go out in excess of 400 miles, in excess of 400 miles, and I submit, Mr. Speaker, i~ order to protect the fish stocks the way they should be protected. Also, Mr.

Speaker, we believe they should be more aggressive in maintaining the righ~s which we believe Canada now has: It was not a matter of goinq and asking for rights which Canada did not have as far as the jurisdiction was concerned, and we ~efer to the same thing with respect to the minerals of the seabed, again out to the edge of the Continental margin. We asked them to take a more aggressive stance, 3146

November 21, 1979 Tape No. 1256 GH-2 ~R. BARRY: Xr. Speaker, we asked them to modify their position with respect to fisheries, to take a more aggressive stance to make sure that the fish stocks were protected. Mr. Speaker, that was not done. now, the information was there. Everybody in this House had obtained the infor~ation from his constituents, from the fishermen and women of this Province, they knew what was happening to the fish stocks.

Whatever the egq-head scientists in Ottawa were saying about how much fishing there could or could not be, the fishermen of this Province knew that it was being overfished, and we made a joint submission to the federal government and we did not get action. Hr.

Speaker, I ask all hon. members, and particularly members on the other side, to get up and denounce the action taken by the previous government at the Law of the Sea Conference and support a more aqqressive stance by the Federal Govern­ ment that is now in place in Ottawa, a more aggressive stance to ensure that Canada's jurisdiction over fisheries c~~--~ --"j~ ~-..2.0-C' -ai..-14-?~b.u;.t,~ ~--_,A!U:!CALAf ~!:.h~ Continental marqin, ~ecause only in this way will cur fish stocks be protected. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Thank you. Point of order, the bon. member Mr.

Speaker, I would like to make absolutely sure that the hon. member for Mt. Scio (Mr. Barry) still has his twenty minutes to speak. He was merely speaking then by leave of the hon. member, so he still has twenty minutes, I would like that clarified. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. J. CARTER: MR. SPEAKER: on the point of order. Aqreed. By right and not by agreement. I am prepared to hear some more debate The hon. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Stirling), do you wish to speak on the point of order? 3147

~tovember 21, 1979 Tape uo. l25a GH-3 MR. ST!R::.ING: No, not on the point of order. that I did give leave for the member to speak and ! leave the point of order to the Speaker's ruling. I thought that he was .. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) I understand from your comments that there are no objections and that your understanding I agree is that the han. member would still have his twenty minutes? Is that agreeable? MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: MR. S'!'!'RL!UG: or have you ruled? MR. SPEAKER: !1.R. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, just !or clarification - The hon. member for Bona vista ~torth. order, please!

Are we on the same point of order No, I have not ruled yet. On the point of order, it was a question of misunderstanding. I was agreeing that I had yielded and, in my personal view, had no objeetion to the member having his full twenty minutes. for the ti~ebe~nq and it will qive me an opportu~ity t~ do some research and see whether or not that is, in fact, what the :ulinq should be, North,then 1 may continue. The hon. member for Bonavista On a point of order, the hon. tha Leader of the Opposition. MR.

JAMIESON: Forqive me, and it may be even a little brazen on my part to say so, but I wonder if in Your Honour 1 s deliberations on this question 3148

!lovember 21, 1979 Tape No. 1259 SD - l MR. C. JAMIESON: it might be useful for the future if the question of a.."l int.e.rvention of t.~at. type if we could not get. something specific so that we wuld all know on bot...~ sides if an bon. members yields for a question or something or other of that sort just exac~ly what does happen. I ehi.nk it would be an imporunt general ruling from 'lour Honour. MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Simms) President of the council. MR. W. l-'..ARSW..LL : To that point, th.e hon. To that point, ar. Spe.s.i<er, I tb.ink it. ia a moot. point really as to whether the hon. member for Bonavist.a.

North has, in fact, ended h.is speech at the particular time because usually when you yield you usually just yield for question not yield for a speech and the hen. member has already now consumed a cer't.ain amoWlt. But we are not going to insist en that, M..r. Speaker, bei.."lg a government that is always interested in hearing what th.e Opposition says, I just put it on the record now so that in future instances where it occurs it will not be deemed •:.hat •,;e ha7e slept on our laurels or our rights. ,~£.!foE:!:.. -·~~o.C,t.bie~tA_,on_~fll point. of order- t.'le firs't. one, I believe, I. d.e!erred..

This puticulu point; I will admit to hen. members that. I have, in fact, been trying eo do some resea.rc..~ in the last. ten or fifteen mi.nutes on l:ot...lt 'those points and. I will be prep.u:ed eo give a rul.i.ng on it at a later sitting so that we do have a precedent for sure. In 'the meantime, everybody has agreed the h.on. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Sti.rling) may continua and t...lle bon .. Minister of Mines and Enerqy (Mr. Ba.r:

y) may be able to speak later on if there is no change in the rul.i.ng. The bon. member for Bonavista North. MR. L. ST!P.LING: Thank tou very much, Mr. Speaker f and I do thank the_ Minister of Hines and £nerg:z· for malting a speech on fisheries. I am. delighted that he takas the position that he does about t.ne offshore. I believe the egg-head scientists t...~at he re- fers to are still in Ottawa and I will be interested in the comment.s 31.49

November :a, 1979 Tape No. 1259 MR. r.. STIRLING: that. t.."le federal people may have to make about these egg-head scientists that he referred to. I concur with his concern about extending the limit beyonci the present li.:nit. However, Mr. Speaker, today I would. like to talk about something not under the conerol of the fed.eral qoverr.ment, something under the con­ trol of the provincial qoverr~nt ,:.m. WARREN: Whic..'l ones are they ? MR. L.

St'IRLL'lG: - something that the provincial government can do somet.."U.ng about and I agree it is cOtt'.pletely in line with the comments t.."lat the member for Ha.rt::our Main, Bell Island (M.r.Doyle) mentioned in Which he was pleased that there •,.,ere no grand statements or grand comments being made tilat were not backed up l:ly substance. Now, I asked the Primier yesterda~ in his role as Minister of Fisherie~ and I am. pleased that he is back, about e.'"1.e state of the Fisheries :.can i3oard. What MR.

STIRLING: I t.."link the best way t.'lat I can maybe ge"t. a message across is in the same light t.."lat the rne=ber for Mt.Scio (!'!r. Barry) said;•wtten -people ue out tnere voni:l.e-rJ.Jrg t:m<~ 'l:afi '"aley "nave some impact on government• • Maybe t can hne some impac:":: on gover=:ent if I try to give to this House of Assembly the same language t."lat a fisherman used :u.mself. •near Sir, I need some help a.ncl I hope you will t..7 and help me.

I sent in an application to the Fisheries Loan Board for a loan, to get a l:cat built and I have not heard a sound since, t'Jlat is over a tJOnth ago, 11 'this latter was d.ated Sept.e.mber 29th. •r know ~ople that have loans and are not even fishermen. I have been a fisherman all my life and I need a new boat. I do not know anything but fishing and you know there is not much. work on this coast. I think the government shou.l.cl try a.nd help t.he fishermen that are fishermen, '1 - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Kea.r, Hear. MR. L. STIRLI~G: 11 help the fishermen that are fishe.rmen firs't 3150

November 21, 1979 Tape No. 125::3 RA 3 AA. L. STIP.LIHG: 11 before they give new ones loans as they are doing." ~. WARREN: MR. L. STIRLING: They do nee know the difference. I think that is vorth repeating Mr. Speaker, in the wrds of a fisher.nan himself • 11 ! think the govern­ ment should try ana help t..'le fisher.nen th.a.t are fishermen !'irst before they give new ones loans as they are now doinq :' f.I.F.. WARREN: They do not k.'"lew the difference. MR. L. STIRLING: start fishing next season!' AN HON. ME!1EER: ''I want to get this boat built for to Safe enough. 3151

Nove~er 21, l9i9 Tape !.260 !1B .. 1 MR. STIRLING: '18ut if I do not seen 9111t this loa.ri!it is in his hand writing and 1 am sure you will appreciate that I have t.o take some t..ime in reading i ~..:'i! I do not. soon qat uhis loan it will be too la'te for the t.ime t.'le boat is finished the fishing season will be half over, and that. is no good en t:h..is coast •• If you do not get star-:.ed early he:e the best part of the fishing season- I called t.'le Loan Board and they said they have not had a meeting yet. So if th.e way they do this it is no wonder t.'ley are short of :~:~ney.

If a man cannot get a. boat until t.'le :nidd.le of t.'le fisnJ.ng, season,he cannot :n.a.k.e money enough o:o pay on his lean.'' AN HON. ME.."'iBER: liear, hear1 MR. STIRLING: "r hope you can help me. r do not know who else to turn to. I need this boat or else I have to ;o on welfare and I sure do not want that." MR. WARREN: I doubt if he (inaudible) PI cannot afford to bt...y one myself. Pleue try t'C \lnA"'t. you ean ":or 1ae. ~-l. ·-can 11!-'ft:-~'4lBI~--·._-~~c::. -~7 and also keep t-~se working in the ~ish plant.

Hoping ~ hear from you soon, RaytJ:Jnd Ho'Jell, Wesleyville." I wrote Walter Cart.er, Oct.o.ber 5th, asking h.im if he would look into this matter-and ! have replied to ar. Howell-who was chen the Minister of Fisheries, who has now received his just rewards. October 2l, M.r. Speaker. ~rirst of all I would like :.o thank you for answering my letter and trying to help me. Well, r have not heard a thing from the Fisberies Loan Board yet!.october 2l: ! do not know ..,hat is takinq them so long. At least they could let a m.an know ..,hat is going on. They say that all the applications have to go before t..lte board.

Well, that: is not true. I know a fellow who went. in St. John's for a loan to buy a boat, and he has everytiti.ng fixed up. So what is going on1:! maybe a reference to that politieal interference ~-,at a board member mentioned.- 11 why can they not have a meeting? 'lbat is over two ~XC~nths ago. Does it ta.ke that long for a group of people 3152

November 21, 1979 Tape 1260 MB - 2 MR. STIRU1:l'G t to gee together. The fishermen of this Province is giving them a jo.b. The govecmene l:lee::er look after the fisheew!n and .bet:ter than thac, or else, t:here will not be any fishermen in a few years tilne .'1 Right: on. SOME HON. ME.'iBERS: Hea.r, hear; Mlt.. STIRLING: ui wrcce Mr. Peekford a lecter a :nonth ago. Now, he ciid not even answer Trrf letter/' AN HON. MEMSER: What? MR. STIFLING: 'I do not know what is wrong. ~obody eares about the poor man. If r had a million dollars in the bank ... ! would not: have any trouble qet:ting a loan for a boat.

I do not knOW" what :o do. I have not done a. thing this Summer, could not get a. boat, no ~o~ork, no UIC t.~is Winter, all because some lazy people who have plenty and the poor fisher.nen of Uewfoundland paying them and have to do Wit..•'tout it. It will soon be too b.ce to get a boat built for next Spring. It is no good after the fishing season is half over on this coast. If you do not get --fishing early, you only have a couple of months, then it is all over: so the year. Af'2r AUgust m:mt:h t..l-te weaCer 't::rns bad.. So you can see what I am after. I want to get reaCy for ea.rly Spring.

If they do not soon have a meeting 1 it miqht as well call the Loan Board off and let a.ll the f.isher.aen l.ie da.m and see what happens to Newfoundland. I hate to bother you again but I do not know who else ~ turn to. No one w.ill answer ar; letters. I thank. you again. Sincerely, Raymond Howell." Th~ _ave;-a~_.person say~ - "How can I qet through to that government." AN HON. MEMBER: Without any uouble. MR.

STIRLI."fG: Minutes ago, before speaking, I had my office call the Fisheries Loan Board • .-ihe- the %!CSt senior person that she could locate - she spolG!! with Elenor Viteh in that: office - t.~e man still does not have any approval - and she explained that there is a. freeze on all loans from the Fisheries Loa.."l Soard, and nothi~g will be done unt.il the Premier lifts the freeze. 3153

AN HON , MEMBER: shocking? M..'t\. STIRLING: Tape 1260 HB - 3 Is that not shocking f Is th.at not. Mr. Speaker, t W>e the words of t;.~e fisherman himself, Peeause there are hundreds of people, hundreds of fishermen,. sayi.ng 31.54

November 21. 1979 Tape no. 1261 GH-l .MR. ST!P.LI!iG: the sa~e sort of thing • Hr. Speaker, the other subject that ! would like to cover in the time that I have lef~ also was from a group of fishermen. This was in August. ~we are bona fide fishermen in Bonavista Bay. In late J'uly and August of this year, whales were very abundant in our fishing areas, and we experienced substantial losses of gear. At present, many are unable to continue dshing in a manner that allows us to earn a living: And they came up with some recommendations. To me they were sound, sensible recommendations. Here are their recommendations: (

l) The government establish an emergency financial assistance program to compensate fishermen in Greenspond and Salvage for gear loss through whales this summer,

(2) The government in consultation with the union establish an insurance programe for whale damage to fishing gear to be in effect by next season;

(3) The government assist fishermen by dragging fishing areas in Greenspond and Salvage for ghost "..ae.ts~U-k•JL,-hv, .. -.tb• -~.e. .. · 14)_ -XU .aov..er.nt:Le.nt: establish a proqram so that seriously injured wha~es entrapped in fishing gear can be destroyed by appropriate authorities and the carcasses of dead vhales processed. Four sensible, reasonable suggestions. I took that material signed by dozens and dozens of fishermen -- Greenspond and Salvage - and I know the member from Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) also took it up.

I vrote the then Minister of Fisheries- and he wonders why he did not get elected- the then !iinister of Fisheries, and I sent a copy of the petition - ! eould not present it as a petition in the House because they had sent me a photocopy, not the original signatures - I sent it to the Minister of Fisheries. The Minister of Fisheries in September writes back to say, "This is government pOlicy .. , that is vhat he says, .. ! have for acknowledgement 3155

November 21, 1979 MR. STIRLING: with attached copy. Tape ~lo. 1261 GH-2 your letter of 14th September There are many in other communities who suffered similar damages. I a~ now conducting a full survey of such damage preparatory to a ~eeting which I will be having shortly with the Hon. James McGrath, at which time the prospect of Federal compensation to fishermen for gear damages will be discussed." And he goes on talking about a Gear Insurance Program, ''The matter will be pursued with Mr. McGrath and, hopefully, some mechanism will be set in place for next year.

I have passed it to my Deputy Minister for his consideration and appropriate attention.~ Two things, Mr. Speaker, two things that this government has some control over. This is not something that we have to go up and fight with Ottawa about and march on Ottawa, although that is fine, we all do it. We all are looking for bette= !ishinq controls off the coast, but in t~ese two areas, the Fisheries Loan Board and in Gear Insurance Replacement, those are commitments in ex~stence by thi.s sovernment, ane1 1:ha"t. "'tne"''"'rrtis~a«t.-l."''1'i~~--""!-i~e.~. all over t~i3 Province, so ably put by ~r.

Hovell, a fisherman, is that you promised us, you promised us the great revival of the fishery and there has been a great revival of the fishery, and now there is no money backing it up. There is no money that lets the person, after getting all of this excitement, goi.ng back to the communities - as the Premier said, restoring this way of Newfoundland, saying •yes, you want to be a fisherman, it is a honourable course', t was proud of the vay he spoke the other day when he talked about how things had changed, when he was so pleased, now, to have people proud to be the son of a fisherman.

But, as this fisherman says, when he tries to get a boat, when he is encouraged and makes an application 3156

November 21, 1979 Tape No. 1261 GH-3 MR. STIRLING: !or a loan and goes through all the rigmarole and does not even get an acknowledg~ment - started in August and not even an acknowledgement - are you acknowledging it today? PREMIER PECKFORD: I am sorry, you are wrong there, I have to interrupt you. There is a response back to Mr. Howell~ on the question, by me when he wrote me. I have a copy of it here to show - SCM~ HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. S'!'IRLI!.fG: MR. J. CARTER: PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. STIRLING: to table a copy? P?~~IER PECKFORD: MR. STIRLING: I accept that, Mr. Speaker. Retract, retract. October 2Jrd.

Would the Premier be good enough I will when I get up to speak. Thank .you very much, Mr. Speaker. I do accept the fact that Premier certainly intends 3157

Nov~~er 21, 1979 Tape !l'o. 1262 ra-1 :1R. ST!R.L.!NG: great ~~ings, but it not enough juse co have intencions, it is noc enough jusc to make great speeches. You have now got 800 applications, as! understand 1 in which people were tcld 1 do something abouc this induscry. And, Mr. Speaker, the gear insurance replacement programme has been promised by this gcverr~ent for so long people just do not believe them any more. And I know the Premier is concerned to make sure that people have some belief. A."'ld the Throne Speech said that we 'N'ill be accouncable.

T\.-o things in t:..,_e Tl"'.rone Speech, his deter.nina cion to be accoun1:able a.r.d his concern for the way of live in Mewfoundland. well, t:..~ose two things are brought together, Mr. Speaker. It is no1: enough to get the expec~tions up in fishermen, that yes,we have now reached the stage where . ..,.e are go!.ng to support fishermen, and then because too many applications come in just to not provide the extra funds. It is a disgrace, Mr. Speaker, that a Minister of Fisheries was not immediately appointed.

E:it.her 1:hat or the Premier himself should have taken on the job as Minist.er of Fisheries because it is the most important job in all of this government, yesterday, today or t..~e future. Thank you very much. SO.'£ ROU. M£!-m£RS: Hear, hear! MR. 5PEA.'CE:R (Baird): The hon. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, ! will not delay t.'le House very long but I could not let this opportunit.y go by without saying a few words on this resolu1:ion, the guts of it being: THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that this House fully debate all aspects of the Fishery in order tha1: the goverr.ment oay be directed to develop a strategy for t.he Fishery in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador which would be in the best interests of all involved with the Fishery and in the best int.erests of the Province as a whole. This is a very, very relevant resolution,! suppose.at any time that it cernes up in this hon. House, whecher it be 1920·or whet.her it be 1980.

I think the House could do a let. worse than debate this resolution eveey year on all aspects of t.he Fishery, so that members on both sides of the House can ge1: an opportunity 1:0 both express their broad concerns as it rela1:es to the fishing industry in t.he 3158

Nove.be.r 21. 197? IB-2 PREMIER PEC:<FORD: Province and as ic relates 1 particularly.! eo their o-.m ccns't.ituenc!.es where almost all of us have sote interest in ~~e fishery because a !air number of our consticu~~t:s prosecu't.e the fishery. So it is a big area. And I have heard some of the debate ~~at has gone on and some of it I have missed because of meetings in the hallways out here or downstairs but I did not want to let it go past. Let me first deal with the hen. m~ber for Bonavista North {Mr.

Stirling) and the comments that r.e made relative to answers to correspondence and so on 1 which I feel very strongly abOut, and,therefore 1 I want to tell the hon. membe= tr~t Mr. Howell, whom the hon. member mentioned, Box 47, Wesleyville, Bonavista aay, ACG 4RO who wrote me a letter, a copy of which is right here, Mr. Speaker, September 29, was received in ~~e Office of the Premier on October 2, going over the question of his longliner and so on and his application. I replied to ~x. Howell and he must have the letter by now. It is almost a month old now, the letter that r sene out to him.

I do not knew if it got caught in the mails or not but here is a copy of the letter. October 23 was when the letter went from here. MR. STI.?:LnlG: (.!naud..ibla) mac.~e.r .as far as Mr. Ho\o'ell is conerned. '..Jhen he wrote me the letter on October 21st. obviously he said t.here W"as something like a mor~eh in bee~en. He would not have received the Premier's reply because it was not until OCtober 23rd. Just to correct that. ~es. It was a little bit less than a month.

I try to as much as ! can, even though there are hur.dr<ads of letters coming i.."l, to get responses out wit:hi11. a three week period. and I think that just barely catches the three week period.. I did respond to Mr. Howell as I bad to all the fishermen around the Province who enquired about the present s"t.atus of the Loan Soard. So that sort of takes care of that. And I have given the answer to Mr. Howell which I have given to members in this House over and over again. Ar.d I have also contacted the Fisheries Loan Board on behalf of Mr.

Howell to indicate, to make sure. ~"l.at they get answers out so th.at he knows where he stands in relation 3:159

November 21, 1~79 Tape No. 1262 13-3 to it. At least ~~at is some consolation, that ~~ere is some resp:mse, some so-called, "Bureaucracy" which very cfeen is L-:tpersonal and unresponsive to i.'1dividuals around the jurisdicat.icn which they are supposed to serve. The whole fisheries ~tter outside of Mr. Howell and wesleyville, the whole question of the fisheries, ~s one that we could spend a lot of time on and I arn sure that a lot 31oo

'I ape :io. 126.3 FPEHIER ?EC:~OPD: of reoflle in ':.his neuse ;.;ho coulC. get up and discuss it for ::.ours at lengt.'1 and not really repeat. themselves all :."lac ~"Jc."t. !-.nC. t.'1ere is one , that I have gotten involved ir. O'IJ<jr the last five or six :ronths rruch more Ceeply t.'lan I had hitherto fer in other years as a rnerrber of the Houser or as a tr.inister of t.~e governtrent. and it is one that I feel vexJ, •.;erJ strongly about.

AnC. in recent years, as we~ all know1 the fishery has .become to be a very, very viable part of the ~lel .. .-founCi.l;u".:'!. eccnorr.y so much so now that the new middle class 1 yea,almcst the upper class 1 of t::anY parts of rural uewfouncilanC are fisherr.en.

Anc! as I have said on a nu:rber of occasions :.'1is is a welcomed chan.:;e fro:n t.1.e past where t.'le fisher.r:en •rert often .,.·~e looked upon as being sor..ewhat less tha.."l average 'l'he and ;.,ere not a part of the real system t.hat went en in t."le co~unity • :r.erchant was PO\<.'erful and a few of cronies anti t.~ey al:nost paid t.~e !isher- tr.en the kind of •.;ages t.~at they wanted to pay them anC the fishe:.r.en haC. "-"erf little power.

All of t.1.ac has c.'langed and the fishermen, bot.'1 as fish pla.nt·,-wol:Xers, as t::awler.r.en, as captains, as fisher.ren in the boats 1 have cha.nqed that. around. You have fisher=n around to clay •.,..ith SlOO ,JOO boats, t.."tey have become of age and '"!;ley are about -=.."lei: business prosecut:.inq a ver; lucrati"-"e indust;ry in our Province, a verJ lucrative resource.

And one tire the squid and t.~e herring a."l:: t."le mackrel were not a viable operation or ..,ere not seen to be, and there were !ew markets for it:.. :;ow there is a n:ulti-species thing around so we have a ver; valuable fishery here right now and1hopefully,the ~4rkets will maintain t."lemselves and the fishery can continue t.o expa.:1d and the volure of fish and all of the rest of it. But there are three or four areas of the fisher: t."lat I would j US't like to t.ouch on. I can separate it into three or four pa=es, I SU?pose.

One is, !or example, the processing sector 1 t."lat area of the South coast and now the tlor'theast coast where we have seasonal fish plants in Port au ~~oix and in other areas in the St. Ba~e area where fishing is being prosecuted and ~here the processing plants are working all:lost the whole year ro1.l1'ld. You have in t.'le processing sector sorr.e plants 3161

~iove::-.!:er 21, 19i9 Tape ::o. 1~63 ~.at. are working t· .. ·el·:'.:!: r:-ont.hs of the year and you have ot.'lers · .. here t.hey are woridng t.'1ree or four :tcnt.ns. ;.nc: I thir~ that. an objective of-any person involved in leaC.ership in the Provir.ce today eust. set as their objective that we :rust get additional processing of our raw fish in t1ewfounclland, that it !'l'.ust even be increased, t.nat we ~ust maintain the existing processing plants on the Sout.~ coast and so on and we can depend upon the gulf and other areas for sore off- shore laneings to keep the plants going all the year round.

And ·we !T'ust increase the amount of processing that occurs en the t:or;heast coast and tr1 t.o extend t.~e period that these plants can rer.ain open. Of course, t.o Co that, that Unks you alu:ost Cirectly into the ..,.hole question of t.'1~ ~iortitern cod and the Hat:".ilton aanks s-:.oc.'<; and tc ensure that l:.oats fishing that stock off shore, if in fact, there are boats t."lat ..,·ill fish t..'lat -=f! shore once t.~e surplus has heen detertrineC by scient.ists 1that that is l~~Cecl in the ?::evince and in that part of the Province where processl.n; now only happens for three or four t'Ont.~s of t.he year.

If ever ;..·e are going to continue to have a tie""fo~Cland like we even have toc!ay 1 and where you are qong to haw a very viable Fogo IslanC,:-where you are go!.ng to have a t."len you have to have access to a stock and that ~lafpens to be, in our case, the ~iort..'1ern cod or the Hamilton Bank. 'lou r."ust have that~ Other.orise, you al ... ·ays say,. that we have reached no,. the plateau to whic:.~ we cannot ;-o up to another higher plateau of fuller et:"Ploy::~Cnt t.."lan we have at the present ~r:Ct::ent.

There is no question about that. i·:e ...,ill reac:.'l a stage in the next couple of years ""here the amount of herring that can be taken i.r. a given bay and the nt!t'l::er of fishenren 1 as it ::elates to mackerel,as it relates t.o turbot., ' as it relates to cod and all of the other fish 1 t..>:.at the inshore fishery -..·ill be taking care of for all intents anC pu:poses.

An.C. after that has Ceen taken care of1 and you have enouc:-h fishe::n-en to accoll"!!lodate t.l-te amount of fish that is cotr.ing inshore and it is steady anC farily constant, given the fact that there is going to be SOT!".e variati.cns in volurn.es every year dt:e to !actors beyond a.'"\:r~ of our control, out: under a nor:o.al set of circumstances you will readt t.ltat poi..'"lt and then to expa.r.d any fu...-ther to ensure t.~at

i!ove:rber 21, 19i9 ?ape :!o. 1263 ?P.E!'liR ?SCKE'C?D: La Scie plant 1cr Englee ~lant,or St. ;...~t..'1.ony or all ':.I&e -..·ay down the r:ast coast or on '=he t.a.brador ccast stays cpen :.onger, you a:e going to need access to offshore supplies, i! in fact, it can be Cerc:onstrated reasor.al:ly that the inshore fishery will not be negati1."ely af!ect~d,and :.here is a surplus there that 3163

November 21, 1979 Tape !to. 1264 GH-l PREMIER PECXFORD: has to be caught by ~idwater or offshore trawlers. Otherwise, you can always look upon an Enqlee or a Conche or a St. Anthony, to have the kind of cyclical employment pattern that it has at the present moment or will ha~e in the next two or three years, because you will reach your maximum of inshore capacity there with the numbers of fishermen you have and all the rest of it.

So that is one area, the whole processing araa, where,as an aim, as an objective, we must try to see that additional, enough fish, raw material, fish is brought ashore to maintain what we have now in Burgee and Ramea and all the south coast plants. We must be able to stabilize that, manage the resource to allow that; that is one thing. We are at that now and we must maintain that. If we can improve it, well sobeit, that is all the better.

But secondly, along those lines, we must on the East, Northeast and Labrador coasts expand the tiwe of year that processing can occur, and we need more volume ·A:::L"..d.c -thaJ:. ,and ..that volume ea.n only eome from an increased inshore fishery etfort,vhich ve are nov invol~ea in,with more boats and more fishermen and multi species, many, many species, but over and above that,if it can be determined that a surplus to the inshore is available, that that must come ashore in Newfoundland to expand the time that these plants can remain open, so that we can reduce our unemployment rate, increase our wealth, and all of us will be better off.

That is a critical, vital issue that a lot of people - I do not know about in this House, but in Newfoundland- do not understand in the long term. It is not being anti Canadian, it is being pro Canadian~ because the better off Newfoundlanders are, the less will the Federal 3164

November 21, 1979 Tape No. 1264 GH-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Government and Canada have to pay into us. Less unemployment insurance will be paid out in Fogo, less Unemployment insurance will be paid out in Englee, less in Conche and all the way along the coast, and as we get better off, so does Canada become better off.

Therefore, I get somewhat disturbed when I hear people trying to label comments that I make or me personally or the government as being somewhat closeted and with our heads in the sand when it comes to talking about access to a fishery resource which is the lifeblood of Northeastern Newfoundland, Eastern Newfoundland and Labrador coast. And if we are going to have any attempt - we are not going to find oil or gas in every cove and bay in Newfoundland; I hope we never do find it in every cove and bay in Newfoundland - the fishery must remain the foundation of the economy of all those places for the long term.

Fogo cannot go, Fogo must remain. The people of Fogo Island have proven over the last two or three years with a .t:A,£.S4n..Lb,le ~.ounJ:: _,o1 ,Li-.Sharv: _:.e.souree t.hat t.hey can be a very viable~ thriviAq~ T~br&At society vhere they are, where they are. That means continual good inshore fishery based on the proper manaqement of the Northern cod, and if there is fish surplus to what the inshore fishermen can take,that must be cauqht by midwater or offshore vessels that land in Seldom, that land in Joe Batt's Arm, so that the people of Joe Batt's Arm and Foqo are workinq longer. SOME HON. MEMBERS: AN BON.

MEMBER: ~!!_!_!.C~: Hear, hear! That policy came from the Liberals. I do not care where the policy came from. It does not make any difference. You can put what colour you like on it, I do not care what colour - I am talking about a ~ewfoundland policy, a Newfoundland policy. 3165

9ovember 21, 1979 Tape No. 1264 GP.-3 PREMIER PECKFORD: That is number one on the fishery, One is the whole business of processing and how that - The second point is contained in the first and is that our first priority must be, has to be, unless you want to totally change the face of Newfoundland - and ! take it we do not want to do that - that the present demography the present population distribution around the Province is the kind of thing we want to continue to have, with some minor modifications here and there along the way.

Obviously there might be a change in Grandois or there might be a change in Fischot Islands or whatever, okay. You know, we can all see those as realistic. Then, if you are going to have that, the priority must be on the inshore fishery, because if you eliminate that - I mean, the thought can kill us just to start with so it is hardly needed for me to go on to explain why, because if 3166

November 21, 1979 Tape No. 1265 IB-1 PREH!ER P:SCKFORO: you eliminate that, you eliminate fishe:men 1 you el~inate people. so any compensating factors would have to overcome that are just impossible. I mean ,you just cannot do it. so your inshore fishery has to be your first priority and then you build on your inshore fishery. You build on it with access to surplus stock 'Jhich comes about because you manage your stock properly offshore. So that is the kind of way you have to go. Third.ly - and this bri!"'.gs me to t:he current poin:. - MR.. JAMIESON: What point number three? I did not quite get point number two.

PRE..'iiER PECK!'ORD: Point number two which really should have been point number one is the inshore fishery thing - MR. JAMIESON: Yes. PRE!-!IER PECKFORD: - which was a part of the first point. I got to the processing when I should have gotten to it secondly. Number one is your i.."'1shore ,especially as it relates to your East, Northeast and Labrador.

You build on you:r inshore from there based upon first access i.Q_..tJU.s .surp.lus .which _evuy.bcdv,_.savs -~ ooi.tw J::O,-hapoe.n .j...-, J.,9a2 ..c.r 1993 or 1984 Oil the northern cod, arui -which 1if managed properly, will give us a fairly large volume of fish which can be used in our plants along the Ease and Northeast and Labrador coasts.

Thirdly,we must as Newfoundlar.ders, I think, make a fundamental decision as it relates to how we inte...""relate with the federal government who, regardless of who is there - I do not care who the ?rime Mi.nis't.er is - as Newfoundlanders as to how we are going to jurisdictionally manage or otherwise manage the fishery, from a licencing point of view primarily and from overall management of stocks which are off "cur" shelf, the extension of our land mass,not to be Newfoundland orientated,b