Volume XL Monday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Fourth Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard) Speaker: Honourable P.]. McNicholas Number 54 13 June 1988

The House met at 2:00 p.m . MR. SPEAKER (McNjcholas): Order, please! MR. SIMMS : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the President of the Council. MR. SIMMS : I wonder if I m :i. g h t j us t ·take a moment. to correct an error IAJh 'ich occurred Jate Friday, just at the adjournment of the House. T indicated that we would deal with The City of MOIJ 11 1: PE~a r 1 ACt rHH:l then the ·two Finance Motions, Stock Sav .Lngs Plan and Uenl :ur'8 Capital. Unfortunately, I t.uas of the undersl:and.ing thai: The Mount: Pearl Bill had been printed. Indeed, Jt had noi: been.

In fact, l relayed the information to the LeadE:~t·' of the Oppos:i.U .on (Mr . Wells) via the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Kelland). I hopE:~ he called and advised you of that. MR. WELLS: No, he did not . MR. SIMMS: He did not? I met him; still here in the House so him if he would call you. he t.uas I asked I also informed the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick). In any event, the bill is not printed so we will not be doing it today; it looks like we will be doing it on Thursday, quite possibly, and I will indicate that al: the end of the di:\y.

What t•Je have agreed to do is to concJ.ude !:he -· I should not ·. say concJude, that is a bit premature, but to carry on t.he debr.lte on Thee~ Agrologists Act, which we L2913 June 13, 1988 Vol. XI. . adjourned IAJiJl. get Resolutions Whole. on Friday, and J n 1.: o t. he t.:t~Jo in CommittE!e thE~ n we Finance of ·thE! I might also point out, Mr. Speaker, as well, thee~ Clerk has advised me, for the benE!fit of the Opposition House Leader (Mr. TuJ.

k) in particular, that indE !ed on the Order Paper, Orders 27 and 28, which arE! showing in Committee of the Whole, are not in fact in Cornmi ttee of the WhoJ.e, UtE!Y arE! stiJ.l second r·e~adings; onE:~ tAJas adjourned, The Legal Aid Act, the Conveyancing Act we did not get to yet. I do not knol.!.J why it :is t·:herr?. . It is just a m-Lnor· E!rTor . Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. RUSS ELL: Mr. Speaker . M~. SPEAKER ; The han. the Minister of the EntJiTonmE:~nt dnd Lands . MR. RUSSELL : Mr.

Speaker, I rise today po-i.nt of pr·ivilegE :! to make remarks pertaining to a which appeared on page yesterday's edition of The Express - MR. PATTERSON : You do not read that, do you? MR. TOBIN: You do not read that, do you? MR . PATTERSON: That is a rag. MR . RUSSELL: on a a few story 8 of Sunday entitled 'Committee recommends Fall s i.t ting' . II. : i.s unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, that the han . the l .. f:'!adt?.r of l.:he Net~J Oetnocratic Party (Mr. Fent.uick) is not herE!; I do not: knot~J .i.f he,, i.s going to be h-er·e this afternoon or not . This is No. 54 R2913

the first opportunity I obviously, to raise this. quite honest with you, Speaker, I do not care if here or not, I am going to it anyway. had, To be Mr. he is raise Mr. Speaker, sometime ago, at the end of ·the last session, the then Government House Leader appoi.nted a Select Committee, or it has been act.Lng i.n terms of Cl Se1E:1cl: Committee to review the rules and procedures of this l_eg Lslature. The committee have met on several occasions, and, J.n 1ny opJnion, ·rJp u n t i 1 now at 1 e a s t , ex c e p t for the han.

LE:1ader of the New DE:Hnocrat·Lc:: Party, we have had excellent co-oper·a tion and we have b~~en making some progress. Mr. Speaker, I was amazed yesterday when I heard, and then subsequently read, the report I referred to earlier which appeared in The Sunday Express containing very factrJal evidence, and we might as well admit it, of the topics, at least:, which IJ.Jere discussed by this Committee and which, I understand, IAJere djscussed by the official Opposi.l:ion caucus and rAJhich, 1 understand, were discussed by the hon. Leader of the NDP and hJs one other member. T h i s c au c u ~> , M r .

S p e a k e r· , o n l h J. s d de of the House, will deal with l:he mat l'.er· I: his corni.ng WednE!Sday, although, I suppose, it might be ki.nd of IAJal:er tinder· the bridge since it j s all out in public now anyway. Mr.

Speaker, critical of although I I have to be somewhat The Sunday Express, blame them information. either myself Vice-Chairman, do not particularly for printing the I do think they owed as Chairman or the or somebody, the L2914 June 13, 1988 Vol XL courtesy of a telephone call tell i.ng us they had this kind of information and asking if we would be kind enough to make a comment on it or what we thought of it all. MR. MORGAN: Very pooi~ journal-Lsrn, that is what it is. MR. RUSSELL: Mr.

Speaker, I think the privileges of all members of this L.egl.slatr1re, particularly the members of this Committee, have been breached. I refer to Beauchesne, page 203, section (647), 1 Premature Dtsclosurc~! of the Report 1 and I quote: 1 No act done at any committee shouJ.d be divulged before it has been reported to the House.

Upon this principle the House of Commons of the ·United Kingdom, on April 21, 1937, resolved "That the evidence taken by any select committE!e of this House and the documents presented to such committee and which have not been reported to the House, ought not to be published by any member of such committee or by any other person". 1 Now, Mr. Speaker, that Js very clear. In referring to the

article in The Sunday Express, Mr. Speaker, Net~Jfounclland 1 s C~nSIAJer· to The National Enquirer, the hon. I: hE! Leader of the New Democratic Party has bE:1en quoted and T t.~.Jill just read the last paragraph for nocu: 1 Accordi.ng lo Mr. Fenwick the reform package has the potential to change the House of Assembly from 11 a speaking gallery and a rubber stamp" i.nto a "significant 11 instrument for provincial policy mak i.ng. 1 For any han. members, Mr. Speaker, who read this

article an~.who have the document IAJhich was circulated No. 54 R2914

by a member of lh8 Table rnar·ked 1 confidential 1 , by the tJ.Jay, 1 to all members of thts Legislature 1 , and then have the audacity to report l:hi.s, because l:her·~1 is no way, in my opinion, Mr. Speaker, that the reporter who published this story could have done this without either seeing the report itself or having it read out to her by the member in question. l'-1r.

Speaker, I refer to a document of Erskine May called 1 Premature Publication or Disclosure of a Committee 1 s Proceedings or Evidence: 1 By the Ancient Custom of Parliament 11 no act done at any committee should be divulged before the same be reported to the House. 11 Upon this principle the House of Commons, on 21 April, 1837, resolved thj.s rnatl~er, 1 and they go on to talk about that. Over in another secl1on, Mr.

Speaker, 1 Publication of evidence taken before s e J. e r: 1: r: o mnrH .: t ~~! r-) s before it is reported to the House. -- 1 L is a breach oF privilege for any person to publish or disclose any portion of ·the evidence given before, or any docurnen I~ presented to, a seler:t committee before such evidence or document has been reported Lo the House. 1 Now, Mr. Speaker, it is, in my opinion, a very serious breach of privilege. There is no question about that in my mind, but Your Honour will rule on it, of course, as Your Honour always does. The Leader of the New Democratic Party, Mr.

Speaker, has, in my opinion, carried out a very unfair act to the me111bers of h-is committee, to this Legislature, to the members of the House and to this ancient institution. Mr. · Speaker, I know there are others tA.Jho perhap~> would l.'i.ke to L291~ June 13, 1988 Vol XL speak to t h i. s , b u l: I am s e rio u s 1 y comtemplating whether or not I wlll continue to serve on this committee if the han. member con ·l:'i.ntH:1S to be d rneJnb(c1r, and I am prepared to do something else about it. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The han. the member for Fogo . MR.

TULK: Mr. Speaker, MenihE!k, the I u..dsh the 1nernbE!r for Leader of the othE!r caucus, was in this Legislature today. It is unfortunatE! that hE! is not. J suppoint the point of privilege raised by the Minister of t·. h e r n v J. i~ o n rn e n I~ a n d I_ a n d s ( M r . Russell), the member for l.ewisporte.

It is of grave concern to all of us in this House thr:\1: LhJs !<Jnd of <:lei~ can bE! carried out, and that a documE!I1t which was circulated confidentially, which I gave to my caucus and thE!n took back because we wanted to maintain a certain confidence, it is indeed unfortunate that the member for Meni.hek, to whom this

article has to be attributed - I do not beliE':Ve there is any doubt about this, unless there is some sleight of hand by a reporter - or any member of this Legislature, would take a document that is to be compiled in confidence and reported to this House and let somebody read it. As the member for Lewis porte, the Minister of F:nvtronm~Hlt and Lands said, if you look at the report in The Sunday Express, then there is absolutely no doubt that the p~1t' son who ~~wo te the art.i. c 1 e No. ~4 R2915

either had to see it or somebody else had to write the

article for them, because many of the words, many of the sentences, and many of the paragraphs contained in tha t

article are uerbaU.m, not from the Committee's finalized report, but from the

summary that was presented to our caucus. I have noth:i.ng to say abo11t The Sunday Express reporting this, because that is lhe nature of journaltsm. If you get a document, t.h<:~n you r·eporl.: .i.l:. That has aJ.t;..Jays been the:1 case, and I 1·1 a \H1 n o Ud. n g "1. o s a y a b o u 1: a netAJSpaper IAJhich does it. I do haue some 1~.lri.ng l.:o Sr3.Y about Lhe person who carries out this kind of act, especially if you are a parliamentarian.

There may be a question arise in this point of priuilege as to why it was important to this Committee that we not go around laying out exactly what the Committee was discussing from meeting to meeting or what the Committee was discussing at any particular point. Why was it important? This Select Committee, by the way, was proposed to the former Government House Leader, who is now a Senator, and myself as the Opposition House Leader, by the member for Meni hek last year, just bE!fotne the l.eg:i.sl~tutne closc,1cl, ~;o ·that perhaps we could upgrade the rules of lhr.~ l .. egJsJ.clturc,1 somewhat.

We thought it was an admi .rablc::! thi.ng l:o do clnr:l IAH) put together the Committee. Now, why did we not want to have this kind of public disclosure? Why does the Committee not want to have it? Well, it is no secret that a Select Committee of this Legislature is made up of partisan parties - you haue the governing party, in this case i:he P.C. L2916 June 13, 1988 Vol XL Party, the NDP and the Liberal Party, and if we are going out making public statements, it · is obvious that we arE! not going to serve the k:ind of role IA.Ie tAJanl: to serve as parliarne:~ntarians.

It ].s very obvious that that would not bE~ the case, because WE! wouJ.d find ourselves bickering over politics rather than ouer thE! parliamentary i.ss1Jt:~s IAJe I~Jer·e discussing. We had an agreement in that Committ ee th.i.s i.s perhap s the mos i: das l:a rd1y act of all - seven mE!Tnbers of us who sal.: not as politicians reprE:~senting a poli ·t~ical party but as parliamentarians hoping to bring about somE! rule changE!S to mct!<E:1 l:hJs !louse lfiOine funcl:ional.

That was the intent of saying, ' Let us k E! e p 1:: h .i. s IA.Ii t. hi n l: he confines of thE!Se walls.' If we hRve witnesses publicly, of course, it is public knowledge . Any discussions we have are not public knowledge. When we preSE!nt this report, hopefully we as parliamentarians can present a unanimous report to our Legislature so that we can have concensus on what the governing party of the day does in changing the rules of the Legislature.

Well, that hi'\s been broken, that has been thrown to the wind by the IAJhi.ms oF one rnan, one person, l:he headline seeker, the person who cotnes -i.nto l::hi.~> l.c,~gtslallu'E~ l~nd begs to get on committees. Mr. Speaker, I ask this 1.. P g .i. s 1 cl t u r e h OIAJ c i"' n y o u t r· u s 1: 1:. hat gentleman or any other gentleman who is go ing to break the confidence of seven of his peE~rs, parliatnen ·tarians. IA.Iho sat Committee to put together a on a rE!port cannot f o r t h i. s u~ g i s 1 a t u r e ? I i: be done.

This is the same his namE! to a for the Job, likE~ a 25 to gentleman who signed report called Tools asking for something No. 54 R2916

31 per CE:~nt rr.~ise For then, when lAJe got a 6 raise, spokc against it . the same gentleman. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. TULK: MHA s I r:-lnd per CE!nt l"hr.li: L; That is the same gentleman who came ·i.nto thi.s LE!gi.slr.tl:ure and voted one day for NATO, on next day voted against it., and thE!l1 thr:1 next day scuttJ.ed out of the House. Now, that is the kind of confidence you can have in that gentleman. Mr. Speaker, as I .said, lAJe had an agreement. I am not going to refer to all the references the han. gentleman referred to, but I tJ.Jould refer to one from Sir Erskine May.

It is very clear that thi.s is a breach of privilege. 11 The publication or disclosure of proceedings of committees conducted with closed doors or of draft·. r·cpor·ts of committees before they have been r e p o r t e d i: o 1: h e H o 1 1 s P. tAd l J. , however, constitute a breach of pri1JiJ.egF.! or· a conl:ernpi:. 11 Tl". Js very clear cut. No room for debal:.e. The only thing thai: r·emains to be nailed down in concrete for this House is whether the hon. gentleman is quoted correcl:.ly in the netAJspapr:~r. That is the only thing that needs to be confirmed . I suspect he has.

If indeed he has, and if indeed this House finds that hE! has, then I am prepared not to move away from the Committee myself, as the member for Lewisporte, the Minister of Environment and Lands suggested. I think that would be giving into something t h a t I wo u l. d s t i c k another name on if I lAJere not in this Legislatur·e. I am nol:. prepared to do that, but I am prepRred to rnovr:1 R moti.on that th(~ L/917 June 13, 1988 Vol XL hon. gen l".J.r~man be oxpeJ.led from sitting in on further mE:1etings of i:haL Cotmn:i.l:tc:!C:~ AS we deliberate further. I am prepared to do that. MR.

RUSSFLL: On any committee! SOME HON. MEMBERS: On any committee! MR. TULK: 0 r a n y co rnrn i t b~ e . ~~ E! 11, an y committee which I would want to be a part of, but certainly this Committee. I think this Legislature should ask the hon. gentleman to leave this Committee. He has cE~rt.ainly misused the trust, the privilege of fifty-tiJJO par·l .:i.atnE~ntarians in this Legislature, because the agreement was there among seven of us that there would be no statements made to the press.

T fo1tnd myselF nll. day, l:o bE! quite frank with Your Honour, with somo netAJS rn'~dia persons and I do not blame them - calling in and :>r.ty ·i.ng, 'Wou-ld yo11 rnake a comment. on this report? This has been published and that has been published.' I found myself saying, '1\Jo, I am sor·ry.' 'WeJ.l., would you confirm that this statement ls true?' You are almost put in thE! posiU.on whE!re you have to tell people a lie, that, indeed, that is not in l:he report.

Because even though the secrE!CY has been broken, I do not. want to further compound the problem by saying, 'Yes, indeed, that is correct or this is not correct.' Mr. Speaker, if this House finds there has been a breach of privilege in this Legislature, I am prr:1pared to make the mo t:ion to have the hon. gentleman expellE!d, ·i.F you t•.JRnt, From thRt Cornmi.ttee. No. 54 R2917

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for St. John 1 s East. MR. LONG: r"'r. SpeakE!r, I do not have,~ a I)Jhol.e lot to say on the - MR. YOUNG: You should si.1: dot)m, boy. You have some face to get up. MR. LONG: p o i. n 1: o f p r i t; :i. l e g e t~J ~l'i. c h h a ~; been raised. I understand that !:he Mintslc,~r for F.ntr.i.ronmc~nl: and Lands.. as Chairman of lhe Committee, ·.i. s concerned about I: he process that has occurred in the last couple of days.

I u.Jould sf!ly simply, as one member of this House who is following quite closely the proceedings of this Committee, that I was concerned about the process of the Committee and how its report was going to find its way to the House .

I am not in any way prejudging the events that have occurred, but my own understanding, having had a conversation with the member for Menihek, who is in his dis tr·ict today and will be here tomorrow, and 1 am st~rc,~ tALi l.l be abl.Fl l:o spe!ak for himself, is that there there was an understanding ~mong ntE:~mbers of l::he CommittE!e that the intc,H'im r·eport, tA.Jh:ich had bc~en prepared by the Officers at the Tab l. e and tAJ hi c h u.Ja s g i. v en 1:: o a J. J. three caucuses, sometime ago had bc,~on presented to c-:~dch of i:he caucuses.

I understand the 1_-lberr.~l cclucus had a. di.scussi.on, as did myself and the mE!mber for Menihek, r·C:~viet~d.ng point: l:ry po·i.nt the very important work of this L2918 June 1.3, 1988 Vol. XL Committee. I understood the m·embE!r ·for Menihek was told by the member for Humber Valley, who is the Chairman of the Government Caucus, Ulc!t an undertaking was given that this rC:~port would be discussc,~d at the Government Caucus meeting on two different occasions.

And I believe an innocent difficulty arose I~Jith the process, in whJch the member for Menihek had an undc~!r~;tand:i.ng abou 1-.: how th~~ r·E:!port would become public amongst the membr~1~s of lhe Corrnn'i.tte~~ afi:E:!r 'it had gone to thE! caucuses, and he~! e v .i cl en 1: J. y h '" d a con t; f~ r· sa L -:i. on IA.Ji t h a person from the media on the understr.~nd i.ng L:hr.1'1.: Hw rE:!por·t IAJas going to soon be a public document. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! AN HON. MEMBI:R: Do not be so foolish! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

LONG: I am not trying to give a fuJ.J. account of what happened with this series of events, I am simply trying to say, from my own position, my understanding was that any day this report would have been tabled in the House, after cHscussion in all thr·et?. CaUCUSE!S. I think what happened here is that l: h c~ r o p r C:~ s en t"' 1:. :i. v P. f r· o rn our c au c us on this very important committee hr.ld hJs OI~JI'l undc,n·s l.:ancLi.ng of the procE:~ss and acted in good faith, I beJ.ieve, based on conversations with the Liberal Caucus and the Chairman of. the Government Caucus.

Beyond that, I am not going lo say any tiring further at this point -I think a fair No. 54 R2918

question has been raised - except to say that T belieVl'! Uw m~~mber for Menihek was acting in good ·ft'lith in tryi.ng i:o make sure Lhal. this important report was dealt with in some Fashion. All members of this Commitlee haue been working long hours for the last eighl: months i:o prr~p;:ll~e th·i.~; report. The member for Menihek t..ua s q 11 i. t e c on c (:~ r· ned abo u t t he eventual delivery of the report. Mr. Spt~aker, the member for Menihek will bE! here in his place tomorrow, and I am sure we can take the issue further. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han . the President of the Council. MR.

SIMMS: I LJJould just like to have a brief word on it. T.n Fact, my preference would be to reserve my r :i. g h 1:. to s p e"' k to t h :i. s poi. n l: of privilege, because I feel quite confident thal Your Honour will probably t..uant, before he makes a r ul. i n g , t. o g i lJ e 1-: he h on . m c~ m be r the appropriate opportunity to E! X p J. i'\ i. n h :i. S a C t i. 0 n S , i'1. 11 d t h i.-l i: :i. S the norma] procedure.

However, I might just cts well go ahead now and say my pie:~c(:~, and presumably, if Your Honour allows l:he hon. member tomorrow to explain his actions it tArill. be brief, because that is the normal procedure. What we heard in the way of an explanation by the member for Menihek 1 s seatrnate, the member for St. John 1 s East (Mr. Long), has no relevance at all to the serious breach of privilege that has occurred with respect to what the member for Menihek has done. Whether the han. member for St. L:.>.9l9 June 13, 1.988 lJ o J. X I.

John 1 s East feels that the member for Meni.hek was concerned about the report getting out prop~rly r.~nd r.~ll i:h,?~t, :i ~; not relevant. It has no relevanCE! at all. There is a sacred parliamentary tradition, a sacred parliamentary practice, t•lhi.ch hr.<5 be0n i.n exi.si:E!nCe for centuries, which says what thE~ m€:~tnb~~r for LE:~t..u:i.spor'i·.:<~ said and says what the member for Fogo said, .i.n quol:ct-L:i.ons, i'\nd th<-:!rE:~ is another one, Mr. Speaker, that I ln~L g h t C\ S IAIE! 11 t h r 01.1..1 in t 0 thE! rni X for your anyway, because thE!':/ arE! c:-1l.l. basically the same.

This one deals with select committees sp(:~cifically. 1 In thE! Commons, any publication of a draft report, which has bE!E!n submitted to a committee, before such report has been agreed to by the committee and presented to the House, is treated as a breach of privilege. 1 It is cut and dried, clear as anything. The member for Menihek, I suppose, has to explain his actions at the earliest opportunity, which, I hope, will b0 i:omorr'ot~l. I IAJould like l:o hE!ar his explanation. I must say the Chairman of the Sr:!l.r~ct Cormn:i.+.:tcr~ cal.l(,~d me yesterday and he was really upset about the,, mal:ter· .

T. t-:hE!n bought a copy of the paper and had a look at :i.i: mys(,~J.f and, T must say, I was very upset with it . But just to clarify a poi.nl:. The rne:~rnber for St. John's East leaves the -Lmpr(,~ssion that L:he committee had agreed, once the caucuses had looked at trris report, thai:. it wouJ.d thE!n be tabled in thE! House. My understanding is that the committee had agreed to discuss the items, because they are only recommendations at this stagE:' by the committee- th(:'Y are only recommendations - to the i.ndiv-Ldual caiJCI.IS(:~S, and aft(:~r t:he caucuses had their input - not all No. 5/.l. R2919

the i terns are going to be agrE!ed to by everybody i.n every caucus -· I understood that then thE! three representatives, the Vice-Chairman, the Chairman, and other members of the committee, including thE! member for Menihek, tAJer·e to come back as a committee and then try to put together a final draft that. obvi.ously having gone through the caucus process, would probably be rnos t ac c eptab l. e to all of the House.

That is what a comm~Lt.l:ec~ at.b:~mpts to do, so to suggest somehow or other that the process sirnpl.y uJas ~:o go to caucus meetings and then it would be lablE:~d hE:~re -Ln lh~~ :louse~ is not accurate. I do not knotAJ if ·the hon. membE:~l~ 1.1Jas ki.ddi.ng tJs or what. Perhaps he did not unclers l::i'lnd i.:hi'll· . par··U.cul.F.tr' process. In any event, Mr. Spei'lker, !-.hat i.s l:he process . This caucus. on this side of the House, has not dealt with the report.. AN HON. MEMBER : That is your problem . MR .

SIMMS: Of course. it is our problem, but certainly you should respect the difficulties that we may have in dealing t.ui th the report. We have lots of thing s to deal with . In the case of the caucus last tAJeek. I think the Premier was absent. It is a major, si.gn:i.f'i.cant mai-.t~H' and we want to make sure the Pr·emier - T t;.Jas abs r;:mt. and I am the House Leader for the goVE!rnmenl sj .dc. So Jt i.s important that we be there to have s om e j, n p 1.1 t i. n t o t h e d i. s c u s s J. o n o n these matters. That is the only r·eason . It i.s not br~cr.J.US(:! I;.Jo drr,, not. t1Mying to deal with it.

It is n o b i g d e •'11 ! Y o 1.1 cl e r.J. J. u.d. t h i. l: . There arr:~ somr:' good things in it and UH~rr~ aJME! some th ·i.ng~; not so good, which I do not like L2920 June 13, 1988 Vol. XL personally. But the fact of the matter is. Mr.

Speaker, the member for Menihek has broken a code of ethics that has been observed by parliamentarians, even the slipperiest parliamentarians in history; if you read back over 300 y ear·s or· 400 years. r:w en the slipperiest would never stoop so J.o1~ as to r·elc,~ase a report:. or release the contents of a report to the pr0ss prior to the House itself and prior to the comrni ·U.ee i t s e J. f h i'l tr.i. n g a p p r o v r:~ d i. 1: . T h i s has not been approVE!d by l:hE! commith~c yel:. ~llhai: I i-Jnd funny aboui: ·i.t·. r.dl. Mr.

Speaker, is that the member F o r M 0. n i. h t=! k • i. n h J ~; lri g h i~ n d mighty and pious way, frequently g 0 t·. s tJ p here :i. n 1~. he H o us e and likes to quote from Beauchesne and say: 1 Oh. you <H'e t~.wong. 1 or 1 You 1 re picky, 1 or he picks this o u t o r' 1·: h a t o u t . M r . S p E! a k E! r • here he. himself. the onE• 1.\Jho tri.c~s to gi .vE:~ the tmprc;!s:don that he knows thE! rules. has brokE!n a rule and he should be severely punished for it.

I can tE!1.l Your Honour that if Your Honour rules that indeed there is a point of privilege, and a breach of privilege, which I cannot SE!E! how, Your Honour, can get away From unJ.ess the member absoluteJ.y gE!i:S up and denir:~s C'!Vc,~rylhing, T tAJould be prepared to support such a mot:i.on as thclt described by the member for Fogo. or. indeed. I t•mttl.rl b0 prepdrc~d lo move it, whatever the process is . I think 1-.he idei'l of removJng h:irn from the cornrni ttee would perhaps br;:~ a most a p p r o p r· :i. i'l b~ c:1 i. r r-~ c:U . o n t. o l: a. k c,~ • a n d maybe even future committees. Personally.

I do not c i:l n e tJ e r t. r 1.1 s l.: l:. h e serve on a committee No.· 54 · know how you geni.:J.E:~m<~tn to again. That R2920

is my own feeling. MR. SPEAKf:f~: I would like to hear from hon. the memb(~r For For·t.une -· l·l<o~rrnil.:c:~ge briefly on this matter . MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Sper.~ke:.~r, it is unfortttnnl:e that the member for Menihek is not hE~re, b11l~. as i:hE=! min:i.s1·.N' i.n r·aj sing the point has noted, he hr.td l::o ri.'l:ise "it al: Lh"i(; pRr·t:.i.c:uldi~ tJme. I lAJant to support the m-Ln.i.si.:E!r 1 s poi.nl:: of pri.v:i.J.egc. I think it i.s a gr:~nuine point of privilege .

I t i. s s u b s t a n t. i a 11 y t o t h E~ c r· e d i. t. of that minister, by thE! way, that the comrn~itt.E!e has tAJorked so tAJel.l in getting a consensus on a far-ranging number of issues, and that c on s e n s u s wa s a b l e to be built largely because :it IAJas well understood by the members of the committee that we would operate within the normal framework of par'l.iament, that: :i.s t.o say, IAJe would not be bandying about draft reports or shoaling off at Lhe mouth to people outside the s <->. v en .

We rH d no t e tJ e n i: a J. k 1:. o ou1n OlA.Irt caucuses until the comrni.tl.:ro~c clec:i.ded -.i.l: IAJr.IS +.:""i.mt~ l:o go back to the caucus, and that is the part of the process we are involved in right now. I j us t IAJa n t t. o say i. n pas sing , M r . Speaker, 'Lhd 1·. I do no 1: bel :"i.eve t:he press is a·t all to blame here, I th-.i.nk the reporter did what any good reporter would do when i.nformal:i.on came :into hi.s or ~Ho~r hands.

I believe the minister had a wild moment there whE!n he rnade some allusion to the National Enquirer, which does nothing to dignify his point of privilege and I would not tAJant · to be as soci.ated with that. Otherwise, I arn certainJ.y associRted with h·i.s L2921 June 13, 1988 'Vol XL point of privilege. Mr. Speaker, there is a word · of caution, of course.

We really do not-. knotAJ hotAJ l.:h:i.s repor·t. carne into the reportE!r 1 s hands, IAJhE!ther, for example, t-:he in8porbH' had :i.t and then talked to the member about :i. l". s c: o nt 0. n l". s , or IAJ h 0. t h cH' , i. n d c,~ c d , the member took the initiative in a c q u d :i. n t i. n q 1·: h f'! r C'! p o 1" ·h=! r· tAli 1·.: h ·.i. t . But, whatever the casE!, it is cJ.E!r.\r fi~om thr:~ acco1 .1n t ·Ln L:he paper that the member discussed qwi. tc~ freely L:hE! con tc,~nt.s of· LhE! draft findings of the Committee, and thr.~+: -Ls IA.Ihr.tt constitutes thE! breach.

How the rE!port got in ·to lAJhosr:~ hands ·is ent.ireJ.y bE!SiciE! UH:' point . Mr. Speaker, the TnE!mbE!r for Stephenville and I were in Menihek a year or so ago and we were given some i.n-formati.on by some community people up there, in a mE!E!ting, and I instinctively sa-Ld to the community leader, 1 Did you acq1~r.\i.nt: your· rnE!mbr:~r, thr:' rnE!I'nber for Menihek, with this ·i.nfonnr.~U.on? 1 lhs r·eply t.~Jas cryptic and very instructiVE!.

HE! ~;r:'\i.d, 1 No, 1~1e d:i.d nol: want l·:o read it in the newspaper tomorrow morning. 1 1.11e cl i.d no l: lAJan t: L:o read it in the newspaper tomorrow mor·ni.ny. ~) ·i.nc:c ~.:hnn, T hc:tt)e ber:~n particularly on my guard about the kinds of things J say in the presence of that particular member. Now, Mr. Speaker, I t.~.Jant to appE!al to Uw rn"i.nis tc:!r. I unc:l(~rstr.Hld hE! is frustrated . The answer to that .is noL to romove ~d.rnsc->.lf. HE! has done nothing out of the or·dinary here. Hco~ is not the problem hE!re at all.

We have had a good concensus on this Committee, and hopefully we can all keep our hr:~ads and br·ing the conCE!nsus to its logical conclusion. If somebody is mucking up, it ·-Ls not No. S4- R2921

the minister. I believ0 the member for Fogo had a solution to tl1ctt pari::Lct~J.ar probh'rn, LIJhich I might be inclined to support at the appropriah~ Ume, becaus0 I do not see how we can continue to sit with that member unless he has some awfully good explanation. Finally, Mr. SpE!aker, to the member for St. John 1 s East, what I heard him say was that he was suggesting the government caucus IA.Jas dragging its feet on this and the-'! member for Mc,Hl"i.hek took matters into his OLIJI1 hands.

If that i.s a fair· account of IAJhaL he:~ said, tiJ.JO poin·ts: The first point i s t h i.'l t he ad m i 1.: s 1:: o 1: he H o 1 ~ s e thr.lt the:~ action of !~he member for Menihek in talking to the press about this w~s not inadvertent, IAJi:lS not onE:~ of those:! bad moments we alJ have from time to time tAJhere:~ you bJ.urted some:~th ·i.ng Otlt i'.Jnd wj shed your cake dough after, i.t IAJ•:'I:> someUd.ng he:~ sel: abotli : quite deliberately to do because thE~ go IH! r· n rn en L c au c us IA.Ja s not moving fast enough to please him, so hE~ IAJas goi.ng to do the wor·k of' the government catJCIJS for the government caucus.

Mr. Speaker, let me submit, finally, that this process, since it went to the caucus, has not taken an undue time::~. The Committee last met, I believe, on May 25 or 26, and the draft report was circulatE:~d on May 30. So we are talking less than three we::~eks. And g-i.vc,~ n a CiHtcus of tiJ.Jenty-five members, which must have oLher items on its agenda besides this onE!, however 'i.mporl:ant IAJE:~ me1y thi.nk thi.s on0, three weeks - AN HON. MEMBFR: (I11<'1Udiblo.) , MR. SJMMOI\JS: L2922 June 13, 1988 Vol XL T h a 1:. :i. s rig h ·i: . nn~ e e weeks i. s not an undue time, I submit, Mr .

Spe:~aker, for thi.s l:o · haue bE!en still under deliberation by the gover·nrnent ccttJcus. BtJI: t.hi'lt is all beside the point. Whether three IA.JBE~ks or· ten months, it does not allow members of this House to take the rules of the House, and the precedents recorded by BeaudHc!Sne and others, to bE! torn to shreds. That is what thE! mernber has done here and that is what constitutes the breach. I support the point . of privi.lege. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please!

From what I have read and from IAJha+: T ha1Je he::~ar·d today, I could rule on this matter right now, but I t h :i. n k ·i. 1·. only fa J. r to tAJ!.d t u n t. i 1 tomorrow, and if the han . the member for Menihek is here tomorrow I will certainly hear hi . m , and 'i. f hE! i. s not i'H"! r· E! tomorrow I will rule on the matter. Oral Questions MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of thE! Opposi t-.Lon. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, in thE! abSE!nce of the Minister of Justice (Ms Verge), the Premier and the Deputy PrE!mier (Dr.

Collins), I IAJi .l1 haue to settle for the President of the Co11ncil (Mr. Simms) , tf he does not mind. I ask the Pr·esident of t h 0. Co 11 n c .i. l i f t h e g o lJ e:~ r n rn E! n t. i. s awarr:~ that the federal government i:lflflE:~iH'S to hr:·\VE:' made a cloc:i.si.on c.''s to the location in Newfoundland for· i·.he netAJ fc,~dc ,~raJ. pc,~rl'i.l:ent: .i.ctry. No. 54 R2922

The news media reported on the weekend that the hon. Mr. Crosbie had indi.cated that he c-?.xpech1d an announcement to be made within the next month to relocate the penitentiary near St. John's? Is this accurate dnd is government aware of this? MR. SIMMS: Mr . Speclker . MR . SPI'~I11<F.I~: Thf:1 hon . the President of the Counc i.l . MR. SU.IJMS : WeJJ, Mr . Speaker, I am not aware that the government is aware fol"ma1ly of the site or l:he location for a new federal penitentiary.

I am aware that l:.his government has long been fighting for a federal penitentiary to be located in this Province, and indeed I believe this government took a prov-incial position as to our preference for the site, knowing full well, of course, that thE! decision was totally a federal decision. And we made our position known to the federal government. Tndc-?.ed. I believe it is public, is it not? SOM~ HON. M~MB~RS : Yes, it is public . MR .

SIMMS: lille sugg~.:'si:o.d dnd r'ecornn1ended that Ruchans, in the hon. member's rid-i.ng, L\JOiiJ.cl bc~ a good s i. te. ~')o IAH:~ rn<-<de ·that known to Lhe federal go v e r nme n i.: s omE:1 l :i.rne c1go, and IAHc~ also made it known to the people of Buchans and to t.hc,1 cornmuni.ty leaders there who are IAJorking so hard t.o try to seE:~ that. it gets located in that particular district . But I am not personally aware. MR. WELLS : L2923 June 13, 1988 Vol XL Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of thE! Opposition. MR. WELLS : Is the government now prepared to takE!

Fu1nther '-"Ct.ion to irnprE!SS upon the federal government that SIICh i:l pr·i.son 011ght Lo be J.ocatE!d in Bu c hans for two v e1n ~ good f . I I . l . ,., (~as o n s , -~ . r· :> ·. , J (~ r: au s E~ "J ·.: J. s cr:~nt1nally located and would SE!Y'VE! the Pr'Otri_nce be u- .er. ;::~nd SE:~condly. because this Province will cease to exist as ~ Province iF everything that is economic is located only on lhe Avalon Peninsula and if rural Nf:~l.~oJFoundli'lncl .i.s gut.ted of aJ.l economic activity? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear', hear! MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. MR.

SIMMS: Wc-?.1], Min. Speaker, I thj.nk our pol:i.r:y i.n that regdrcl ·is sirn:i.J.ar to the polic~ of Lhe Liberal GotJE!rnrneni·. Lht:~ hon. rnC'!rrJbf:~r l.o~Jas part of twenty years ago. We have at I:E!rnpted, i::\nd hatH! :i.n Fact on man~ occasions decentralized government seruir:es throughout this Province enormousl~ OVE!Y' thE! las:~ tc,~n or f'..i.fteen y{~iH'S. So that is our practice, that is our philosophical practice and our philosophical feeling.

With respect to fu~ther representation to the Federal government, I mean, I arn sure we 1.o~d.ll have no diff-lcull:y IAJi.th that, although it would be a bit No. 511 . R2923

redundant because we have j n fact a l. ready do 11 e it , d 11 d I do no l: k n 01~1 but it might have been a couple of y(:'ars <'~90, pf:~rhaps. So 011r position is on the record, it is well known. And il has been there not onJy for the couple of reasons that th~::~ han. rrH:Hnb(:~r m~::~ni: ions but for· many, many other reasons, of course, that the hon. m~::~uJbE!r did not refer to. Perhaps I can get my col1eague, +:he Minister of Justice, to give the han. member, when she returns, a copy of the correspondence to give him some idea of the presentation on the case that we made and for what r·easons. MR.

LUSII: Mr. SpeakE!r. MR. SPF.:AKER: The,~ han . the member for Bonavista Norl:h. MR. UJSH : J have a question for~ the Min:i.st.E~r o f M ll n i c _L p d l ~ f f r.l'i. r s (r"' r . 13 n!l: l: ) . The->. ministE~r~, no doubt, is alA!are that OVE!r i:.h~::~ pas 1"-. feiAJ yE!ars thr,~ provjncial government has been imposing one financidl responsibility after the other on the already financially strapped municipalities throughout this Provi.nce. In t:his re:~spE!Ct, I ask is the minister atAiare of a rE!

CE! nt letter· Fr·orn the DE!par·tmc,~nt of Transportation sent to a1l municipalities throughout the Province advising them of the Department of Transportation's decision to discontinue its most convenient and economic arrangement tAli th councils, namely, the storage of ice control? ts the minister aware of this, that a leti-.er 1~1as sent From l·:hP. Department of Transportation to all. muni.ci.pal.:i.i: ·i.es noU.fy-i.ng councils of the DE:~paJ~tment of Transportation's dccis .i.on to L2924 June 13, 1988 Vol XL discontinue this arrangement with coJrnci .l.:,, namely, i:hP. storage of ice control materials?

Is ·the minister aware of this? MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Minjster of Municipal ~ffairs . MR. BRETT: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of that. I suggest. that quesU.on should be directed to the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Doyle). Obviously he has more knowledge of it than I do. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member For Bonavis t.a North, a supplemE!ntary. MR. LUSII : lt~ell, I inform the m:i nister l:hc-1t l:h·i.~; ha~; beAn c:lonP., r'lnd I ''\I'll jusl~ tAiondering notAl tAihat the-?. policy is go:i.ng to bP.. li-Jhai·. :L; go-i.ng to be the alternate policy?

Because, 0 b lJ ·i, 0 II S l. y , ·i.f:" r. 0 lin C l. J. S h a V (~ t 0 construct these storagE! sheds for· J.cp control ., ·i.t: :i.s going to cost them millions and millions of cloll.ar·s. nl"i!; i.s going to happen in the year 1989 - 1990, and the minister is saying he is not aware of it? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs . MR. BRETT: No. Mr. Speaker, t r·epeat, I arn not aware of it, and, therE!fore, I s1~ppose I IAIOJJld not bE! expected to be able to give any details on it.

Again I suggest that the JrH~rnbPr clirc,~c 1: h:i.s qJ.IPSi: :Lon ·t:o Minister of Transportation. han. the No. 54 R2924-

MR. LUSH: All right. MR. DOYLE : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Trans par ta l· .. i. on. MR. DOYI.F.: Mr. SpE:~aker, I thank the hon. rn ,,~ m b E! r F o r ~ri . :; q 11 o s i:i. o n . '( t h r.li'l k the Min:ister of Muni c:i pal Affairs F o r· t h e o p p o r t 1.1 n i t y t o a n s I~H~ r 'i. L .

This did indeed occur back about l:hree IAJC:'eks dgo, thr'OII<.:Jh a misunderstanding that happened wi th-Ln Lhe ,,~ngineer·ing department j n which a lE!tter was sent from l::hf'! engJ.rH,~e:~riny df?.part.me::~nt i:o C::~i'lch of the municipal councils around the Prov.Lnce informing them that they were to take delivery of their own ice control materials starting this coming Winter.

When I Speaker, memo to became aware of I immed:i.ately the engineering it, Mr. issued a division informing them that this is not what I would want to see happen, and that they should immediately send a similar memo to the various counciJ.s :i.n LhE:~ Provtnr.e. T. h<:~ve informed the Federation of M u n t c :i. p a 1 :i. t L E! :; t h at L h i. s c/ 1::~ c .i. s i. o n has been reversed. SOME HON. MFMRFRS : H (;! d r , he ~.u· ! MR .

DQYI. .F:: The decision has been reversed and t h e D c,~ p a r -1: rn o n 1.: of T r a n s p o r -l:: a l'. i o n IJJi] l continuE:~ i·ts pr·evious policy of Laking deJ.ilH~ry of i.cr~ r.ontr·ol material and councils have no need to worry about :i.t. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hE!ar! L2925 June 13, 1988 Vol XL MR. LUSH : Mr . Speaker, a final supplementary . MR . SPFAKER: A final supplementary, the han. 1: he membE!r' for Bo nav 'i. s ta North. MR. LUSH: Mr·. this. SpeakE:~r, This is I cannot believe incredible! Were 1-:he:~ De:~pari:nH,~nl -. of Tr·r.u1spor·tati.on not considering doing this? MR.

SPEAKER : Order·, pl.c,~asE:~! Would the hon. member please ask a q11e!; Lion? MR. LUSH: Min. Speaker, I thought I s talntE!d .i.l: off tAli Lh 1 lAH:H'c,~ 1 • Ware the Department of Transportation not considE!ring t.hi.s poli.cy, Mr. Speaker, IAlere they not considering this policy, having had the 1.ettE:H' se:'nt out to councils? Now the minister is caught in the embarrassing position of having to reverse it. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the M·i.n:i.s tE:~r of Transpor·tation . MR. DOYLE : Mr·. Spcc~i:'lker, UH'! DPpo':llnl: .rnfHll': of Transportation was not cons id E!ri ng l.hat po1:i.cy at . dl.l.

Senne discussions had occurred wit:hin i:he l::ngoi.rH,~f~r ·i.ng D· i.l)'i .sion lAJ'i.th some Jarger municipal councils around the Pt 'O lJ ·i nee J~Jh·i .c h ~~Jer'( '! capablE:~ of taking delivery of l:hE!ir own iCE! conl-.roJ rna Ler'"ii'lls. Through an oversight, through a misunderstand ing the Engineering Division had with some of these municipal counci.l.s, Lht~Y thought that the policy was to bE! applied uni .t;er·sally to a1l councils across the Province, and the letter No. Stl. R292S

r·eflected that thought of the F.ngi .neer i.ng D:i.tJ i.si.on ·in th e discussions tha t they had with two or thr"(~F.! mun"i.cJpaJ. corJnc i.

J.s. ~~hf ~n I became atAJare that a ] etter· had l:)c,~E:~n sent l.:o aJl r:orrnci.l s in UH,~ Province, I immediately issued a ml'!IIIO i:o l·:he EHlgc,~er·-:i.ng people,~ wjthin the department informing t i'H:~ m 1: hat t hi. s tAro rr 1. d no t b c,~ a practical route for my department to take at this point in time, that I was more than familiar, having bE:~en Minister· of Municipal Affairs for three and a half years, '"ri i:h t.he pr·oblE!rns that mast councils have in storing this ice control material because thE~Y did not have the facilities to do it.

As a r·e:~sult of that, I issued a rnemo tha t a letter tAJoul.d be sent to every single council in the Province saying l:hat this deci .si.on was reversed, that the Department of rransportaLi.on '"'orrld .indeed continue its po]icy of taking dE:di.vE:~r·y of i.cr ,~ coni:ro'l lflal·erial .s for the:1 various councils. As r· e c c n 1-.l. y t'l s J. R s t rd. y h 1: I s oi. g n e d a Jetter to the Federation of MunJcipc:tl.ii:i .es i.nfor·m "i.ng Mr·.

SHri .t.h of the Federation of Muni .c:i.pal.:i.J:·i es Lhal:, :;horrl.d Rny council enquire about that policy, ·t:h~1y corrl.cl inform ti'H:1Se r:orrnci.l.s that we would indeed be taking delivery of ice control. mc:tteri.als. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker· . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Gander. MR . BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I have a question for the Minister of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing (Mr. Pc,1ach). The matter oF rn·br-.:tn R()P i.s of concE:~rn ·l:o -1-: hf:~ totA.Jn of Gandc.,.r, because there are 1.?.926 .Trrne 13, l98a \JoJ.

XI _ a lot of houses more than thirty year·s oJ.d, mdny of thmn own E!d by peopJ e on fixed incomes ·. I would J.i.ke to ask the mi.n.is'l: t:!r, Mr . Speaker, in the urban RAP program, 01'1 IAJhRi-. baSe ') cH'(~ d(~Ci.Sl.OI'l S lni::lde as to where this urban RAP money .i s s p c-) n i: "i. n t. h e P r o tJ i n c E:~ ? W h r.:t t -:i. s the criteria that the minister' s dc,~pi.·lrcm('!nt r.rsE :!s 1-:o d.Lstr··.ibut :c->. t-.h:is money? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Mini ster of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing . MR. PEACH : Mr.

Sp(?.ai<EH', t.he R~P Fundinq that we spend throughout the Provinc e i. s a 11 o c a t c,~ d b y l:. h E! p e:w p 1 e i n o u r department after assessing very ca.refrrlJ.y rA.JhE:'r·r;: ~ i::he gr·eal ·.est neE !ds would be. I think we will find ou l "i.n rtlrdl 1\JetAJFoundl .and ther e are many communities which have older homes .

It h<'IS beE:1n dorllo' by careful asses sment car·ried out by us 1:111d by CMIIC . npar"l:: fr·orn l.:he greatest need, I guess it is donE! o n t h e b a s ·i. s of t: h r~ h o u :d. n y s 1:. o c k rA.Je have out l:her·e and rA.Jhal hou se:1s are oldest repair. reg :i.onc:tJ.J.y manner. MR. BAKER : Mr· . Speaker· . MR. SPEAKER : dnd It to be ner:!c 'l is spent A suppl.emc,1ntar•y, the member for Gander . MR . BAKER : '1:11 c,~ rno s l: al.located in t.h at hon. i: hE ! Mr. Speaker, the budget last YE !ar for urban RAP For the Province was $4 million.

Can the minister E:1Xpl.ain ho!AJ lhe Gander· office of NLHC responsible for the urban R()P, di.cl not gel: a1l.ocat.ed one single cent even though there is a need !·.herE:~? 1\J 0 . r; "· R29/.6

MR . SPrAKER : The hon. the Minister of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. MR. PEACH : Mr. Speaker, there are parts of the Prov-ince IJJherc~ the nc.;!E:~ds arc;! not as great with urban RAP as othE!r's. Jt1st. to t.akE:~ on(~ example, the last part of the ProvincE! to have RAP extended to at ctll. was the Trinity - Conception Bay area IAJh'i.ch IAJi'ls done:' by rny pr·E~decc~ssor, now the Mjnister of Mines (Mr. Dinn), j11sl: some:' two dnd <:1 half years ago.

It was not put into t1'1i:lt a1nea up to U1a I·. pooi.n i·. i.n t"i.rrl!:~ becausE~ of the fact that thE:~rE:~ IJ.Je rP 0 ther C:'l rE:~r'l S 0 f" thP p r'O V .i.n r: r-) that had a much greater need, IAJher•e [·.he hOIISj .ng Stock IJ.Ji'IS SIICh that more repairs needed to be done. I dm sure IAJhc:~n U1E:~ Gandr,H' area was assessed it was felt in a given year that probably i:l concentrated effort should be given in one area more than in another, or funding is not distributed on an c~qual bas i.s , so, Mr.

Speaker, it is quite conceivable that, out of $4 million, $1 million might be spent in Trinity - Conception and $200,000 in the Stephenville office beca1~se of the ne(!dS !:hat are there. MR . BAI<FR : Mr· . Speai<E!r. MR . SPf:AK[R: A final supplementary . MR. IJI11<FR: Mr. Speaker·, l:he lrl'i.ni .~;l:er· sl'1011l.d know what I am talking about urban R {l p d nr:l I~ her·(:~ r.H' e l) (:1 r y r ei~J c (~ n i: r· f:~!) involved.

How can the minister c.;!xpla-i.n i-.o +·.hose r:lozE~ns of pc~opJ.e in Gander· IJJho have complained to me I~ hat I~ hey canna I·: get C\nything approv.::~d the fact that the r·eason it cannot~. be appr·ov~::~r:l is I:H?.CiHISe L2927 June 13, 1988 Vol XL there is aJ.located another barr·el ing s:i.de? not one single i.n l~.h<~~ budget? Is example of the that is going on on MR. SPEAKER: cent this pork that The hon. the Mj.nister of Housing . MR . PEACH: No . Mr .

S p E:' a k E! r· , 1 can cl s s IH' e t. hE: ~ hon. member that thE!re is no pork b<'lrrt:~ll:-i.ng go 'i.n g on in !::hE! delivery of our RAP programs to any pdri or thi .s Protr lnr:n. r h P. f d r; :-. () r -1-: h (·:! rna 1·. l: E! r i !; I M I" . Speaker, if ·the member for· GandE!r :i. s r r 11 s I·. rat c~ d , T +·.h-i. n k he s h o u 1. d probably take a note out of my b o o k , b E:~ c i'\1.1 s E! t h e i'\ r• o a t.: h a L: I happen to rep1nesent, as the rm~mber For T r ·i. n i. t. y · 13 a y cl <;! V E:~ r d c-?. ( M r .

Reid) can attest, had had thE! same pro b 1 E:~ rn , bas :i. c r'lll. y ·be c au s E! of t he fact that the program has not been in place long. rhe member for Port de Grave (Mr. Efford) raisE!d IJJi.t.h me some time ago, in fact in our Estimates Committee meetings, t. h 1::~ n EH:~ d f o r· an ex pan s i o n to t hat office and the need for increasing l:he numbc :~r of insp<.;!Ctors. Out in the Conception Bay office, which happens l:o bE:~ si tua l::E:H~ in Carbonear·, I think the la st count 1 hctd Uwr·E:~ IJJGr'l-'! OV(:~r 1, 000 pc,'ople IJJaiting, Mr.

SpE!aker, and w~~ haVE! all.or:,'lh;!d, probably, cJ.os<~! to $1 million there this year . It is a f,'lc'l.:, Mr. Speaker, t:h;: ,d: l::hc ,~ money has been allocated, it is being spE!n+. -:i.n i:ht:' prop< ~! r IJ.JdY af 'i::P r proper applications have been mad o, <'I nd p ropr'!r ins pe c i:.:i.o ns carriE:'d out. I can assure the rnembr:H' Uv .\ ~~ i:herf:~ :is no por ·k barrelling. MR. EFFORD : r"lr . SpE:~aker. MR . SPEAKER : No. 54 R2927

The hon . !:he HH:~HlbE!r' for Port. dr->. Grave. MR. F.:FrORO: Mr. Sp<~aker, 1 had a qtt~~st:i.on jntended for the Minister of H (~ d J. t h ( fk . c 0 11 i. n

s) I b I I i" I 1,\J:.i. l.l ask the PrE:~sJdent of Treasury 8ocJ.rc:l .in hi.s pl.i'ICP.. Ti·. is con c e r· rd n g t h e s c he d u 1 e d d£~monstraU.ons by t·.he nttrSE:'~' and support staff at the HeaJth Sci.r::~nces Complex t.odi:'ly. TL .i.s mainly becausE! of the twenty-five, or th-Lr·ty no1JJ, layoffs thai: tJJer·e quoted by the administrator this morning on radio. I would ask UlE! Presi.dent oF Treasury Board, who controls the pur ·s e strings or has som<~~ control over them: Is his government taking -Lnto consideration the seriousness of the health situation at the Health SciP.nces Complex?

Is his Cabinet or government going to allow those Jayoffs to occur just for the sake of not pr·ov·i.d.ing Uh.l'l': hospJtRJ. w:i t h s u f F j d en t fund s to prevent l: h o ~> e 1 i:'l y ofF s? MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the President of the Council.. MR. SIMMS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I thank l:he hon . Ht(~tnbE•r For his question. I did have an o p p o r· t: u n i. t y j u s t b <->. f o r· e t: h e ll o 1 J s e opened to speak to the Deputy Minister of Health to get a bit of an update on it for my own edification, just in anticipati.on of such a question.

I can tell the han. m<"!m~H~r· ri.ght now that this government will be considering some measures that will hopefully address the d iff i c u 1. t i ~=! s l: h a 1~. iH' e b f:~ .L n g tal. I< e d -· about, I guess, at thE! Health L29?.8 JtHlf:' 13 I 19813 lJol XI . · Sci1,1nces Complex r'lnd, 'i.ndeHc:f, maybe elsewhere . But we are p r· e sen l: J. y g f:11· tin g s om(~ t. h 'i. n g ·put together and the government is go ·i ng l:o bc-~ rP.lJ:i.~~tJJ:i.nr] i.t and ts addressing it. MR. FFFORO : A sttppl.P.rtlCoHll-.i:~ry, Mr·. ~:)pf~i:\ker· . MR.

SPI:AKFR: A supplementary, the hon . thE! mc-:1tnbc'!r for Port de Gri'\V~~. MR. EFFORD : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Just to add a 1itt1e bit to that, I tAJould ask l:he Prc~sidt"!nt if he, as a member of Cabinet, or his Cab·i.net is awar'(;1, if th~1 Min:ister of Health has told the Cabinet, that the seriousness of the situation has now escalated to a nuutbE!r' of doctoi"S, specialists, at the Health Sciences Complex - MR. SPEAKER: Ordf:~r. p1£:!as~~! Ml~. EFFORO: u.Jho are ·talking about leau:ing, -i. F, n t trnb er· on P. .. MR. SPF.:AKER : Order, please! MR. EFFORD: I ask is he atJJare, Mt".

Speai<E!r, of i~his si1·.udt-.i.on, thc\t a nt.lrrtbt'!r' oF specialists, one of thE!Hl being a cancer· spec:ial·i.s 1: at the->. hosp-Ltal, are talking about leaving and ar 'E! already negotiating with out-of-Province hospitals? Is the President of Tr·er.lsury Board atJJare of that situation? MR. SPEAKER : Tht~! han . the Presidsnt of the Council. MR. SIMMS: 1\Jo. 5LJ. R2928

No, Mr. Speaker, I am not p~:!rS ana l.ly awar·e:~ of t:he1. i:. s p~~ c :i. f.i. c incident of the one doctor that the han. membl::H' r·c,~fer·s to. I do know that over the years medical practitioners have gone to differ·ent parts of the country, or indeed outside of the country for different r·easons. But I am not pE!rson<:'ll.ly aLuarc,~ of thal: spc,1c.if .i.c E:~xample. MR. EFFORD : Mr. 5pl':~a I< er·. MR . SPF.:AKF.:R: A finaJ supplementary. MR.

EFFOIW: J ask the President of Treasury Boat' c:l , g 'i. lJf~ n L he s f~ r· :i. o 11 s rw s s of the :.J t uaU on and that we cannot affor·d to l.o:H:1 <.·1ny 111ort<:~ s p e ci a J j s t s , wi. J J he c he c k to s e e t: h c,~ r ~~a. son IAJh y IAJ~~ a r· e l o ~; 'i. n g them? I am telling the minister l:herl,~ <H'(~ si.x doc t:ors nOIAJ t:ctJ.kJ.ng about J eav·lng the Province. Would you have that investigated and report back if the reason is becaiJSC:1 of the cir·curnstances i.n the hospital and the financial system they have to operate under? MR. SIMMS : Mr . Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The,~ han . the President of the Council. MR. SIMMS : r-'1r . SpC:1dker, T. IJ.JdS i.n Gr·t.·1nd Fr'll.J.s over· the IAJeekE:~nd, and a good fri .E!I'H:i o(" minE!, i.-1 nwc:li .c:al. doc: l:or th~~r·e, is leaving to go to Guelph, Onl:r.u·io. He .i.s no!-. go.i.ng br-)Ci:UtSP. there is any probJ.em at the h o s p i 1: ct J. o r· tAri. 1-. h s c-~ r· lJ i. c r,~ s o r· anything, but because he IAJants t:o go 1: o o L h r:! r· p c'l s r: 11 res , I s 11 p pose , not necessarily greener ones but oi-.hE:~r pastures.

So that: t~; noi ·. a 1...2929 JunE! 13, 1988 Vol XL phenomenon, that happens o c c a s :i. o n a 1 l. y a n d p c·H' ·i o d i. c a l. l. y , i:'.l n d has happenE!d over the years. Back in lhe 1960s IAJhen your· leader· IAJas a member of the CabinE!t, I am surE! t:her'<:l IAJC'!r(->. doctor's tJ.Jho lE!ft Newfoundland to go elsewhere for othE!r reasons. But I will. certainly pass the question on to the Minister of Heal.th and the officials in the Department of Health to have a look at t:hi:'l'L pdr·t:i.CIJl.ar· ITii:'ll:·.ter. No problem. MR. LONG : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPF.AI<F.R : T i·H~ h o n . Li 'lf) Fast . MR.

LONG: Mr·. Spc:!akE!r, Minister of lnl:~lllbE!r' fot" ~31~ .. John 1 s in the absence of the Justice I wiJ.l also p II 1: c'-\ q Ill~~; ·1.: j_ 0 n :-.0 l: I'll;:! Go v C:H' l'llnC:! t'l't House Leader.

In hJs capacity as GoVt!rntnent Hc.ntsc,, Leader·, in light of his own responsibilities for th(:!SC:l ma ·l-.l:E~r·s, could he advise the House whether we can expect: to see long promised amendments to fhe Human Rights Code of this Prov:Lnce, which come out of reports sent to the Justice Mini.stE:H' som(:l sixt.c:'E:Hl months ago, from representatives of thE:~ Human Rights Commission and the Human Rights Association, introducE!d by i:hE~ Ml.nJ.sl :er· of Jt1st '"Lce, br·oughl.: forward in this session of the J.. 0. \j J ~- J c'l i'. II r• C:1 ? MR. ST.MMS : Min. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: T 1·11~ h o n .

U1 Co1 Prc,~s-.i.dc:!nt of 1: h (~! Council. MR. SIMMS: M r· . ~:) FH:~ a k n r· , r hi:-llJC'! to get. dn No. 54 R2929

upr.la-t:e on that par·ticulf-H' ma'ttE:H' specifically. All I can tell the h o n . me m b (:~ r i. s t h a t 1~. h co~ M :i. n L s t E:~ r of Justice is a very, very staunch and strong ~rlvocato of this p~rticular legislation and has b o en l.IJo r !ci. n g h c'H' rl i: o 'L r· y +: o s e e that it iG Jntroduced Jn this pdr·t·.iclll.:-lt' sessi.on, l:)ll'l: O~)l)oi.Ollsl.y we do not have j t yet.

I do not knot~J hOlll much longHr' 'i:hro~ i'IOIIS8 IJ.Li.J.J be dtl~ing, not much b.;;~yond 1~. h E:~ lTd d C:IJ l·~ 0 1-J I I J. y , [ h 0 p P. . ~) 0 [ re~J.]y cannot anst.~Jeln the question, b1.1t I 1.uiJ.l [-.ak(:~ noU.cco~ of i.'\:. MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A suppJ.ementary, thE! hon. the member for St. John's East. MR. LONG: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the HousE:~ Leader· wo•~ld · h(:~ consider, in light of the very strong representation by members of the human rights cornrnuni ty in t.h is Pro vi n C<:~, the abs o l.1~ 'i".:E:~ necessity of revising a very 01~ l:dat:ed Hurr..:1n Ri.ght:s Code, especi~JJy in view of the fact that i-.hi.S yr~t'H' tni:lr'kS i:h(:~ f~ori.:i.(~i:h AnnJ V(:H'Sc:tr'Y of thE~ International D<o~cl.c:~ratton of illHfl<:ln RJghl·.!;, thai: Hw minish~r 1.u:iJJ do eve1nything in h.i.s po•~Ho~r l·:o br' i.ng ForhJdrd i:Hl introduchon -- MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The han. 1nemL·H>.r is instead of asking quesl:ion. MR. LONG: maki.ng a speech a supplementary I am asking the Government House Leader, responsible for the business the government brings f o rwa r d , IAd.ll hE! do E:~ v Co~ r' y t h :L n g he can to bring forward amendments to L2930 JlHHo~ 13, 1.988 Vol. XL H1e Hu1nctn R-i.ghts Code-?., presuming that the Justice Minister has some prepared for the governm~nt? Ml~. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Co11nci.l. r~R. SU.IJMS: Min. Spc-?.af<er, I can only r'Co~fE!In the hon. Hllo~mber l:o i:hf:!

Jug·'i.sl.r:ll·.: i.vc,~ program which I tabled back in eiH'ly r~;'li"Ch I thr'fo'C'! rnonths ago' probably, and a vast mcljority of the legisl.dt.i.on in that program has been tabled and, indeed, we hi:lV(:! clectlt 1.ui.th a f<dr· btl: of tt. in Second Readings. On that Jist, und(:!t' l:he Dep<H't:ment of Justice, is a nE!W Human Ri.ghts Act. Now, therr~ is a draft bil1, I understand, being prepared. So, indeed, IAHo~ <H'e wor·ktng towards it. The Minister of Justice is a str·ong i:ldvocah:~ of il~. and is pushing it, but I do not know e x a c 1.: l y IAJ h CoH' E:~ i. 1.: s t. a n d s r i g h t. now .

It has not , obvious 1 y , bE:~ E! n p r· :i. n I~ e d or i. 1.: IAJ o 111 d h i'l v 0. b t:! c,~ n tabled and we would have given 11 0 u. CC:~ 0 F i. t. B II -1: f. IJ.J'i J 1 c h E! c k into the matter and I wilJ. do !"! lJ E! r y ·1·. h-i n g T c: ,,, n . T f t l c o 1'n e ~; to me as House Leader I will c: E:~ r 1.: i'1. -L n l y c,~ n s 1 1 r {:! :i. ·1: g ~~ 1:: ~' o n t hE:~ legislative program. MR. LONG: A final suppJementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. i: h r::~ me m b (:~ r f o r· S t . J o h n ' s F a s 1·.: . MR. LONG: I would simply ask thE!

House the the the Leader -· 1 <'.lppred.ate undertaking he has given -is House Leackn· aiJ.JarE:~ that., 'in absence of revisions to the Code to address this act, thP :i.SSUlo~ that our of pr:imacy of present Human No. 54 f~?.930

Rights Code, unamended, is a lJ s e 1 e ~; s doc u HHo1 n t i. n pi" o hi. b i. i-: in g di scrimina·tion for pE:~ople in this Province? Is the House LE:1F.~der aware of this fact? MR. SPE"AKER: The hon . the President of the Council. MR. SIMMS: Well, Mr. Speaker·, the hon. member is stating that it is a fact. I learned a long t.ime ago not t.o take everything the hon. member s a y s a s fa c t .

T h erE~ 'i s 1 e g :i. s 1 d. t: .i o n now wh ·ich obviously needs revision, and that is preclsely the reason why I just explained to the hon . tnemb~~r the gOlHo'rnnrenl: hds been proceeding along the lines of i n t r 0 ell I c-i. n g a n e I~J Ill I rn o::l n R i. g h '1-. s f'lct. We intend to pursue that and hopef't1lJ.y I::H:1fore l-.lw rn-i .ddl.1,~ of J tJ J y or !: o , if t: h ~:.~ H o u s e i s s t i 1 J s:LI:t.:i.ng, IAJe shot1l .d be i.n posi.l·. ·i.on fot" cer·tajn to havE.~ J·t, but maybE:1 even beforf,1 l:hdt~. T.i: all depl-)nds. MR. GT.I. .BFrn : Mr·. Speaker . MR.

SPF.:AKEl~ : The hon. the member for Burg eo 8 a y d ' F. s p o i r· . MR. GTLBERT : I have a question for the Minister of Transportation. We have finally heard that agreement has been reached to close the Newfoundland Railway. I have also h e d r· d t h cl -t. 1:: h e a g r· e ~.;! m E.1 n t IAri. 11 b C'! sjgned w]t-hin the next few days. Now t wonder will the minister j nform this House if a perpetual rnai.nt.endnce agrE:1emen+ · for l:he Newfoundland and Labrador highway s y s i".t:!rn ·i. s i.n r. l11d Co1c:l i.n th i. s rt.-li.l.l~Jt.'IY ag r·e erne n t? MR. SPEAKER : The han. thP Mirds'I:E:'r of L293J.

June 1.3, 1988 lJo J. XL Transportation. MR. DOYLE: I adrni.rE! l:he hon . gentlE!rnan, Mr . Speaker. HE! kec-1ps try] ng and trying. And I guess [ have to give him the same answer I gavE! him d coupl.to1 of I>~JE!C:1ks ago tAJhE:'n he asked a similar question on the r·ail.lJJay, that no agrc,~ernent, as of today, has been reached on the disposal of the Newfoundland Railway. It is no secret that l:al.ks are ongo'ing bettAJE'!E!n thE! federal governrnE!nt and CN and thE• p r o v i. n c i. d 1 g o v ~'! r n rn c,1 n t 1.~Ji. t: h r· E:~ s p C'! c t to that whole matter.

If and when an agre~O!rrtE!ITl :is r<:1"'chc,~d on th<:' NE~IAIFoundl.i:'lnd Railway, the hon. gent] ernen and mf:1tnb(:'r·:; or "Lhc:1 HOIJS(:1 drE:~ go-Lng l:o be informed accordingJy. MR. GILBFRT: M v• I ' ~peak c:!t' . MR. SPEAKF.R: A supplerne:1ntary, member for B11rgc,1o MR. GILBERT: the hon. thE! - Bdy d'Espo.ir· . We-)}]., Mr . Spei:lkl-H', oi.n vi.r:~'"' of thE! serious problems that the go v e nnn e n 1:. i s h a v i. n g i. n p r· o v :l d i n g health care and social services, <:lnd t.o make sur'E! that l:hE:~ hightAJay system does not become a serjes of potholes from St.

John's l:o Port aux BasqUE!S, wiJ.l the ITdnis tE!r guarantee that d maintenance agreement is included in the Rai l.IAJ"'Y cl.nsi.ng agr'EH'rnc;!n t bE:1fore it is accepted by Newfoundland? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Transportat·ion. MR. DOYLE': Mr·. o:lnd pad: Spc,~akotn I aJ.J mr:<~ny I lllo'HlY of t.he No. r)tl. Mi. ni s I:.E:1r of of these l:hings, morr: ~ i.ndt:!r~d, iH'r:- negotiations, I R/.931

suppose, that are ongoing. MR. SIMMS: Discussions . Mr~. DOYI .. E: Discussions ar·t:: ongoing betl.ueen 1·: h ~~ P r o v i. n c E:< r'l n d l: h E:< F e d r,: r· r.l l government. T am not going to get t n t.o tAJ.H: h i: he ho n. rnornbe r· IAJhcd·. the I'IE:"!gotiating pr·occ->.ss is all about. lh1 knOIAJS ftt.J.l. IAIBl.l . ·l~hi'\1 . .i.l: Cdnnol: be d:i.scussed in an open and a p tJ b l. i. c: F o i~ 11 rn l. ike t: h i. s . R 11 t -Lt. i. !) ~:uffic:ient. to know that l:alks at"e proceeding uery, uery well, u.dt:h:i n C! t"Pasonable pE:'riod of r.1 J.

J. tn(,, mb c,< r ~; IAJ:i.ll b 0 'i. n f o rl'riE:"! d . MR. GILBERT: A f i. n i:-11 s u p p 1 "''me n i:cu· y . MR . SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. GILBERT: and time That is the troubJ.e, Mr. Speaker, that it is not discussed in an open and public forum. Now t.uill the m~i.nister aSSIH'e Hw peoplE! of Newfoundland and Labrador that bE!forc->. i:Hl agr'E!t"!ment :i.s s ignE:"!d to close the Railway, that a r· e fer·(,, n d u m wi .

J. l. bE:"! he l. d L o e n s 11 r c,, t h a L thE:"! p eo p 1 e mo s t a f f e c ted by this agr·ef-~rnen ·:~. thE:"! people oF thE:' Prov:lnce, have some input into the Rai.liAJi:lY closi.ng? And will. l:ho gCJVEH'I'JrrJE!I'lt: :iTTIIIJ€:1diately caJl a rc~ ·f e r·end tHn l.:o l. E:1l: ·Uw pE!O pl. n of NE!tAJfoundJand hav.:1 some->. input into 1-.hc,, clos"i.ng of l:he N~:!t11foundl.r.Hld l~a:iJtAJay? MR. SPEAKFR: The hon. the Min ·i.st.er of Transportation. MR. DOYLE: Mr.

Speakc~!r, if th(->.re 'is one->. lhi.ng that the hon. member can be assured of -~t is that the provincial government will not L2932 June 13, 1988 Vol XL sign any deal that is not in thE! b t"! s t i_ n t e r· E:"! s t s o f t he p e o p 1 e of Newfoundland and Labrador. ·And v e r· y rn 11 c h u p F r o n t 'i. n t h a t , a n d very much a priority with govr-~rnrrtE:"!nl: i.s i".hP t.o~Jorkr:~r·s t.o~Jho hc:~ve bE!E!n t.uith CN now for a number· of y c,"!i:H' s . l·le u1n be a s s IH' c,~ d +·. h a t. a 11. of their rights wjll be taken into c o n s i_ d E:~ r· d I: i. o n i:l n cl L h d t t.o~H:"! 1.o~Ji. l. l. n o t do anything that is not.-. in thE!.ir· br,"!s 1: .i.nl-:er·e!d :s .

MR. TULK : Mr . SpE:"!aker . MR . SPFAKF.R : ThE:! bon. th~~ ITH:~mbc,<r· For· Fogo. MR. TULI<: Mr·. Sp~~aker·, I l'ldVE~ a qu('!S t_ion Fot" the Minister of Municipal Affairs. He was there a minute ago, now he is goine, but I guess he i.s around somewhere. AN HON. MEMBER: lie->. i.s just outside. MR. DOYLE: He will be in . MR. TULK: IJJl~1J., thr,, mi.ni.sh:~r, or· thE!

President of Treasury Board, or 1.11 hoe tJ r-:1 r lAd ~; hE:"! s l: o iHl s IAH'! r UH->. question, is no doubt at..11are that tht=!r·e dr·c,, ·l:holtsi:lnds and l·:housands of people in this Province who, d t 1 r· ·i. n 9 1 ·.he S t 1 rnrn E! r , d r c,, l. i. k E! l y to be without drinking watE!r aga:i.n. r or E~ x a rnp l. e , T. can n a trH'!

F i. v P places in the district of Fogo No 9 g i. n Co tJ e , 0 r.1 v 'i. r:l ' s Co v u , Can d e r Bay North, Deep Bay and Island Hr.1rbour ·- wiJ.J. nol:: have tJ.Jater, yet the government - and I wish the mi.ni.str:<r IAltH'e her'E:"! because'! ~w has some real understanding of this - hc::1.s admitted that 'it cannot find the funds to put in IJ.Jhat is known as a standard water system, or water and sewer systE!m for those No. S/1. R2932

commurd tiC"!S. I IAJonder has the mi.n'i.sh:H' · dnd J IAJi.sh he ~~~c.~r·e h1:H'A gj VE:Hl any thought to hOIAJ this pr·obl.ern co11l.d bt~ solved? r(:~rhi.'lps the President of Treasury Board 1.1.1i 11 tal. !< to h 'i. m abo u L H: and he might be edified again. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. SII'-1MS : Mr. Speaker, I am fulJ.y conversant 1.1.Ji t h this par· t i c u 1 a r· rna t t e r· , as I am with most matters that are raised i.n the Ho1.1Se, as t.h~~ hon. member would know.

In fact it was only the other day that I was talking to the Minister of Mu n-i. c .i. pal. (l f fa i. r s abo 11 t: 1.: h J s particular problem. Because of the significr.~nt c:ost: of l~he systems that are used in Newfoundland these di.'lys Ml~. DOYLE : Thc->.r·e j s a confer·r:~ncc,~ underiAJay at l'.h~~ Rac:l:i .sson right no1~1. MR. SIMMS : Yes. In fact, there is a conferi:HlCt:' unc:ler1~JdY. My colleague, the Minister of Envir·onm~~ni: and Lands pt~rhaps could have added a little to this t. o day . H c,1 , in f d c t, lAin s at a conference today dealing with water problems.

The Minister of Municipal Affairs himself I know is v~~ry i.nterest.ed 'Ln some investigation into the situation to see if cheaper, or less e x p e n s i v e , if y o u wi s h , not s o cos 1·.1 y s y s t (~ m s , wo u 1 d b (~ q u :it r:1 acceptable for use by somE! of thE! smaller co1nmun :i.t."i.c,1s .in this Province. I wi 11 take the matter and thc,1 quesl ·:i.on t.hat t:hr-:! rn~~rnbf:1r raised and discuss it further with t·.ho Ml.ni.!;l -.er· of Mun-Lci.pal (lffc."':i.rs and, j f hc,1 has not returnt1d, I t.~.Ji.l.J. be prE.~par'ed i:o U"'ke L2933 June 13, 1988 Vol XI subsequent questions the same way .

MR. TUL.K: Mr . Speaker. MR . SPF.AKf.R: This will have to be a final suppJ.etnentctry. The hon. the member for Fogo . MR. TULK : M r . S p c->. a I< e r· , T. a rn g 1 c:'1 d t o h e a r' that the President of Treasury Boar· d , 1: h t1 m <:'t n IJJ h o do 1 c;! s o u t t he money, is aware of this kind of si.t.ur:l'l: ·ion, becaus(~ co1ne July month, again, people wi 11 havE! to dr·ive i':IAJGnty and th'i.rt:y mi.J.es just ·to get a drop of dr·inking water, l·:o s,'ly no l:hi.ng about IAJC.'tter· For· showers or anything of that nature. I IAJould ask if, in his deli be r· a i: i. on s 1~1 i '1: h 'i:I'H"!

M :i. n .i. s t e r of Municipal Affairs, he would c o n s i. cJ c,1 r , i. r h e c d n n o ·I~ p 1 1 t -i. n a standard water system for those ~·H~op.le, r:lri.l.l:i.ng conunun"i ty artesian wells for communities 1'. h a t f :i. n cl IJH,'fn s e J. v t' s 'i. n t h a 1: situation? I would further ask hi . rn -i. F he IAJO 111. d a '1'.: t ~~HIp t. to s r:1 e that this program gets underway :i. Tlllfl<:Hl:i . ate 1 y so l ... hat UH:' p r· o b 1 c:nn ·is not there this July and August? MR. SPEAKER: The->. hun. the President of the Council. MR . SIMMS : M r· . S p <:1 r:-1 k E! r' , IAii.

L h r· E~ s p e c 1'.: t o l~. h E! first part of thE! question, yes, I IJoJi. l. J. d .i. S (: ll S S i. t. f 1.1 r• 1'.: h C:H' IAJ:i t h t h e Minister of Municipal Affairs. Indeed 1 l:h.i.nk he has said himself, publicly, that that is IAJha+·. h~~ i.s J.ook.i.ng al: r.'lnd IAJhat. he would like to be able to do. But 1.11 ·i. t h r· r,1 s p E.1 r: 1: L o 1~1 h E.1 'l: h e r would be put in place .T11l.y, Uv11: i.s only l'lf:1XI: No . 54 tH' not- . it. for Lhi.s month and R2933

T am not quite certain if that is part of his intent. In any c~v~?.nt, WH IAJi.ll pr·obabl.y bt-:~ sU.ll het"e in the House anyway, so yo1.1 Lui.ll havE"~ lots of t.'"Lrnr::~ to dS k the minister more questions with respect to that particuldr matter. MR. SPFAKF:R: Ordt-:~t", p1Ha s E:1! The L·irne for Or·;"J. qtll:'st·i.ons has E:1]apsr::~d. Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. BI..ANCiiAIW: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPFAKF.:R: The han. the Minister of Labour. MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker, on Thur·sd<-:ty, t.ht-:~ 9 t-.h of June, the han. the member for Me n i h e k ( M r· . F e mo~Li. c

k) cl s b?. d s om l:~ questions about occupational health and safc,~ty at. Net..~Jfoundland Enviroponics. I have some i.nfor·matton 1 t.o~Jould 1-Lke -t:o table in response to his questions. Petitions MR. OFCKFR: Mr. Speaker. M R . !3 P F.: A K F I~ : ThE~ hon. the~ mt-:~mbe:~t" for the Strait of Belle l:sl.t=!. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition fr·orn sixty peoplE:~ of 1:hc,~ t:ot.o~Jn of Roddickton. Mr. Speaker, I think someth·i.ng likr::1 98 pc~r·cenl:·. of UH:~ pt:wple who signed the petition are L293lJ. June 13, 1988 Vol. XL logger·s. Their

WHEREAS sections ·refer t·o a wood-fired generating plant presently being constructed at Rodrlickton, and ~hey expressed a concern that there is not E!nough t:i.rnber i.n i:he ;:u·E~r'l i-.o keE!p the mill going forever, unless some c o n s c~ r· v d. l:"i. o n :i. s p 11 t :i. n pl. a c C"! . l"he residents are saying: 11 TI·IFJ~FFORF lllE:~, l.hE! t'E:1Si.d~~nt·.s oF Roddickton, hereby pray the l·lonOI.It'abl.e I-lOII~)!'! or A~;sernbly l.IJ:i.ll. in!;tt"uc'l'. the han. l: he Pr·E:~rnir:'r and t:he hon. M·i.n-i.~;i·.t;~r· or For·r,~st.I"Y (Mr·. R.

Aylward) lo t.akt:~ immediatE• ar:l.:"i.on to ens11r'e i:hr'tl:. l·:h~:! exporting of all wood from the Rod d .i c k "1.: o n d r c ;,1 l: o t h r,1 1.11 o r 'l d markets be discontinued i.mrnr::~diatE:~J.y. 11 Mr. Speaker, as I have said, thE!rE! is pr·E~sentl.y CJ. t.o~Jood biornr.:tss, sl:r'!cHn turbine, generating plant being built in the town of Roddickton by Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro at a cost of som~~ $26 million. To put it in our vernacular, the plant will b1.1 rn tJ.Jood chips. Tht,~ fi.r·s·l: t-i.mc;! 1-:h:i.s i.dE?.a earn<;! to light in thE!

Roddick ton aJ"ea 1..1.1a s around 1.982 or 1.9B3, 11-k. Sp~~akE•r. Al the time a group of people were pui:t:i_ng i-:r)gc,~i:l·lE:1r d proposr'll. l:.o buy one of the sai..I.Jmills :in l:hE! locaJ. area. There WclS a feCJ.sibility study done. I was one of the pr,~ople i.nt.JoltJc,~d llJii·.h t·:h\:! study and had to travel in var·ious pat""i:s of F1 1 ro po loo !ci. ng for export rna r· k e t s to make that sa1..1.~ill viable. In 1982 and 1983, it t.llas impossible to sell a stick of pulp wood on the export market. No markets existed, Mr. Speaker.

Thj.s is the way thE! export ma1"ket has br:H,~n r·ight fr·om the:~ l::irnc.;! the first the first junk of wood was No. 54 R2934

shipped overseas from this Pro1J:i.nce, t":~lJt":Hl be,~for·c-:~ Confeder·ati on . Th~~ e-:!Xpolnt rnar·kE:~t, as the M:inist.er· o f For· e s try ,,JJ l J. !< no''', .i. s no t-. a VEH'Y dependabJ e market. It is up and dol.lln. So, therr~ i.s no I~JdY yo11 can make a long ·-term, viable ·i. n d u s t r y i. F y o u d r· e d t-:~ p e n d e n t o n the export market. So the,~ local pe->.opl.~:· of J~oddi.c!<J·.:on tried to come up with an idea IAJher-r;d::>y the->. by --·pr·oduct of sato~J logs and thE! by-product of sawmills could find a need or use.

The idea was developed that this wood chi p-f 'i. red s t.E:~am g e->. tHH'i:' l:or be->. put in the area and this would put the sawmi.ll back in pr·oduc +.:i.on bE~causP they had a place for their pulp u.Jood, sawdust. 1:1nd slabs. So ftnally, Mr. Speaker, this mill is ·nol..t.J und1,~r constructi .on. I c a n h} 1 J. Yo u , r-'1 r . S p e:~ a k E! r· , ~~ n d I ccHl tc~JJ. this House->. therr:~ is a Jot of exd .h ;!rnE:~nl: i.n ·!:he f?odc:l :i.ckl:on area because this mil] is going t h e r E:~ • T h E:~ n1 i l. l ,~Ji . ll. r· f:~ q 1 1 ·i. r· e 24,000 cords of pulp wood a year.

Sorn8 E:~sti.mdi:E: ~S hav(~ gorHc' HS high as 30,000, but I am being conserva ·i:·i.vr:~. srnRll 1 c 1 , Mr. Speaker, Jn sayJng 24,000 cords of pulp1.uood I~Ji.ll. be needlc'd. There ts no 1.uay thE! ar·ea Cdn sustain perpetually 24,000 cords for· t:h:ls rni .Il. plu s the sa1.ul.ogs which are required. plus an E!Xport market . Already there ctre some concerns the Department of For·estry rni.ght just be bi.tti.ng off a little bit too much at this stage. and ther·~:~ is sorne concE>.r'n as to whethE!r or not sawlogs and the steam mill can be kopt going.

T h c"~ l. o g g E! r s 1~1 h o d r' e petition, who are 1..~935 .J u n e ll • 1, 9 13 B sign ing committed Ul'i.s to !Jol . XL this biorna s s steam plant going ·i.nt:o 1-.h~:~ ;o~r·rc~a. iH'e lJery concc,~rned fifteen or tl.llen'ty year·s down ·th E! r·oad i:hf:'i"t~ ~~r i.J.l no 1: bE! E:!nough timber left for thE!m t.o haVE! jobs 1-.o go 1:o. ~~o Ulf.!'J ~.~n~ as king thJs House to instruct the minister that thore not be any more pulpwood exported out of the Rod d i. r: k t: o n a r oR .

Now, I stood in thi s Hou se a short L i HH:~ ago d n d ~H~ at ' d t l·w rn in :l. s t e r boast becau se th ey had giv en r:l no+: h '"~ r· c->. x p o r• t p e,, r· rn:l. 1:". 1: o t: a k e timber out of Roddickton. When hE! el-l d • T cr· i. n g E! d , M r· . S p e a k E! r . because I realized it was being d 0 tH?. lJ.Ji. t h 0 U t. g :i. V ·i. n g d U e->. 1:: h 0 U g h 1: t 0 the damage it could be doing to the rl.l'l:l.lr~ :! v·i.abi.J.i. 1:y of l:hc->. satJ.Jlog industry in Roddickton . So. Mr.

Speaker, I arn gladl.y :; u p p o r i::i . n g l: h :i. s p a H. 1: j o n a n d T a rn asking the Minister of Forestry, r.uhf: 'l1 i.t comes

h) lri.1n, IH~ wi.l.l tdkH measur·es to see that as long as ·t~h e r·e i.!> ··"' ~;;::~ro~Jro i.ll :i.nd11 sLr ·y dnd as Jong as this wood chip plant neE:!ds a j 11 n k , t h r,, r· e not ·. b n a s ·L n g l e stick of L1.100d again exported ou t of f~odrli .r:kton . The fir·st choice should alt~o.Jays bE! HH'! Si'llJ.JJ.og, bc"~Ci'.IIISf:' '1-.hc:d·. -Ls IAJhE!r'e the real. jobs are; the second choi.ce ·l:.hc~ bi.ornass, and somE~I~Jhe->.r'e, third or fourth, if thE!rE:~ is noth:i.ng else, and therr ->. i.s E!nough timber. then the logical tiring would bE~ 1-:o expor·t .it, only as a last resort, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hc"~ar·, hear! MR . R. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : r-.Jo. ')t.l. f?~93 .S

The hon. thE! Minister of Forest R ~~ s o 1.1r· c t~ s . MR. R. AYL.WAIW: Mr. Speakt~r, I thank the han. nH:!Inb e r for p rt~ s E:Hlt -i_ ng t·. his petition in the House. I , to o , s u p p o r· t t h e c o n c e r· n s o f people, not only in Roddickton, b 1.1 t .i 1'1 0 1: h ~:! r• p i'.l r ·[~ S 0 F 0 II r p r 0 l) .i. 1'1 C f:~ lo~Jho wish to make:~ su1ne we have a for·~~ s t r· e:~ sour· c E~ 1'' h-i_ c h '"'' ·i.l 1 go a long time into the futu1"e.

ThE~ y a J so 1..vi ~: h , both l n Rod d i c k ton c•1 n d 0 ·I: h ~~ r p a r· t-. ~; 0 r i". h t'~ p r· 0 l) -j n c (:' I t hi'~ t t h (:1 r 0 r· e s t r (.;! s 0 u c e be u·i·. ".i.l. i. z c;! cl r.1 s l'flll c h as p o ~; ~; ·i. b l. n withjn our Province, which is a rt~asont!lbl e 1"0.41.1(·)St. Mr. Spc:~i'lkt:1r I somE:~ or the rl'::1i'IS011!) there are export licenses issued no1..v, and l:he:~y arc,~ done i:'lfl·:er much concern and much study by the professional staff of my department, is to harvest wood wh·i.ch was da.maged through the insect infestations we had throughout the Pr·ovinCE:1.

ThE~ IJ.Jood 1..uas dying anyway. Some if it t..uas done, a cc,~rtain amount:, to help sat..vmillers. Not a great lot, but that was one r c-?. <H o n for· l t , to g e t. a market for it. As the han. rne:~rnber· sa"i.d, HH-?.r't:~ IJ.Jas no m<::n·ke l: for p u J ptAJo o d or it was d iff i cult to get the,~ p11J.p1AJOOd go Lng o11t of ar·eas which arE:~ far· away From ou1n s <:wnn). 1 J. s r i. g h L n 0111. 0 n E:1 o 1-:i'lC"! r lAid y a sdwmiJl operation can get an r:~x l~r·d usc,~ for l·.hp prod11ci·. hE! :h cut--Ung is iF thE:H'e is an expOI"t p (:1 rrn·i. L I r () r· s Tfld l.l. i~HIIO II n i". ~; .

I agree wi.th that. Rut the more usc;!~; {·.haL a SdiAJm.i.J.l.fH', .:·1 log<_:Jf:~r·, or a J urnb<:1r prodUCt1r in this Prouinc8 can get for the by~.product of thE-~ raiJ.J rnater:iaJ. tJJ hi. c h c orne s :i. n t: o t: he p l i:'l n i: , i·: he fiiOI"e v:iabJ e, obviously, that sawmill. operation can be. 1..2936 June 13, 1988 Uol XL The wood chip, electrical go.nc,~rat:i.ng plant in Rodd:-i.ckton will bE:~ a big boost to ·the empl.oyrnenl~. and t:hc-?. for·E~st. :i.ndustry in that area. It will give a good usc-:! to t I·H,1 f o n"1 s ·t-. r· e source we have in that area.

The,~ pr·J.ori i·.:ir:~~; rny dt:1part.rnf:•nt does have now, and will continue to l'lr'1V(:1, tAJ"i.IJ. bE! to pro U~ct saiAJlogs in thE! ar·e:~a, and to use thE! lnE!St () F {': h (:1 r' l:1 s 01.1 ;n c e I i'\ s HIU c h as i. s needed, for the generating plant be:i.n9 dl~lJE!l.opc'!d ·:i.n ·t:he Rodd"i.ckton area. Wr::1 IJ.Jill aJ so rna I< r::~ s u r'E! 1-.hc;!r'e Ls dn ddeqlldl-:tc1 supply of fir·ewood re:1maining and avf.:d.JabJc:! 1-.0 pE!Opl.r,o ·i.n l-.h1~ rU'Od lllhO USE~ IAJOOd for heatjng their homes. Only after· all of lhE!Sii:1 conce1nns ;u· c-:!

IW~ t a n d t h r:1 F u 'l. u r· e p l.i:Hl n ·i. n 9 of our forest industry is met will we allow export permits to be continued. Once we can find a good use for all of 1·.: h (,~ rna tE! r· ·.L i'\ l. :in this Province, Mr. Speaker, therE! will be no mor·e expor·t p(?.rrnil:s. Thank you. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: ·rhe hon. i:he Tllc~mber for Bur9c,~o Bay d 1 Espoj r·. MR. GII..BFRT: Th.:-1nk :fOil, r"lr. Speaker. I to support the petition ror'IJ.JrH'd by IllY coller:1glle For· si ... and put I~ he (Mr·. Strajt of Belle Isle [) e c k t'~ r· ) . rhe concern expressed here, Mr.

Minister, of course, is for the p (,~ () p 1 e () r R 0 d d :i. c k '[-_ 0 n F :i. r· s t lA I h 0 want the a s s u ran c E! t he f u t u I" e s t.1 p p l. y f o r I~ h c,~ 9 e n c,1 r· a i:. i. n 9 p 1 a n t i s No. 54-R2936

going to be there. s:.i.tuat:ion, t.vhE:~n you In :i.s sue l: hi. 5 a lice:~ncc :! to export-. l.o~Jooc:l, EHH~r·y i·:i. fiiP you do it, ~it mE-~ans we ar·c~~ e:~xpori ~·J ng job s l:o Fllr·ope, llldY I :. u brn~i t . MR. R. AYI.WARD: The IJ.Jood is rl y'i ng 1.v·i.l ·.h I:)IJd llJorms . MR. GTL.BF.I~T: YE:~s, well, the thj ng is 1.1.1e haVE! a situ~t t on here where thdt wood-fired generator pJant is g o i n g t o c o rrw o n s t I" E! <>lin v l"! r y s o o n and that wood could be handled there-?.. T. tlri.nk this :i.s Hw concern of the people of Roddickton.

To HH-?., every l·.: .i. mc~~ export licence, indi.cati.on tht:~ admitting ~efeat. SOMF HON. MFMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . GILRFRT : I hecH' of it is gover•nmen l: cHI an i. s We arE! pr·r~~SE!I'll-.ly t~ndbln l:o til:·i .l."L7.e the ftJ]J resource we have. Not.v, the:~re is such a thing as the ovc-:H·rna t:llr·e:~ uJood nnd I r·e;?\l. ·oi. :zt~ +·.i'l'i .!; j s the st~rious pr·oblem throughout 1-.hE! Pr·o,JincE! and I cottld r·c-:~ror· tl"ll:~ m:in:ist.E:!I" to Ray d 1 fspoir. T SE!e I.Vhdt the peoplE! or Rodrli.ckl-.on drC '! concerned about r·ight: now .

They have,~ i:\ chancE! l:.o ht'lve:~ mnpJoyrnf:~nl. for thE:~ long J"ange and they 1.1.1ant to rn.:~ke sur·E:~ ·i. t i.s i.nsur·ed, rather than see these permits given right now. The people of Bay d 1 Espoir have bt:HHl thE:~ vi.cttms of the export wood business, first of all with Bowaters and now trying to get companies to go in there to create a f~~~~~ jobs for 1:-.i'H~ l.'..iO I~Jork~:~rs l~Jho lost their jobs when the 0 e p a r +.nH:Hl ~.: o f F o r· ~=! s t t' y l. o s t t·. h t' L./.937 June 1.3 , 1988 Vol XL F. F.~-). P.

I mE:~r.ln, s i: r· at~J~; . agreC:!IIIE!nl: wi .l:h H1e fHd . they arE:~ gJ~asping at So, 'i.n lHH:~ hr~nd, I~JhE:~n I say, please do no t gjve E:~xport LicencE! l-or· l·.he:~ fJ()Ofll.l :~ ·i.n l~oddickton, [ c\ITI saying you have to do it in Bay d 1 F s p o -i. t' b c,~ c a u s t:! o F t h (-?. situation . People ar'e star·ving to dt-~i:ti·.h HH =!r'E:~. r:~H~r·y l:"i.uJe yo11 do it, L~Je arE! exporting jobs to Europe <qnd For· l:his r't:'dson l fe(:~l. that - MR. R. AYLWARD: We are crea~ i ng Newfoundland as well . MR.

GILBERT: jobs in Y (~ s , b u t s h o r ·t t. ~:H' m , i. f t;..J E:1 i'l r E! going to rape the countrysidE! and lJ.H=>. do i.t. as a stopgap measure . This government seems to be doing i i-. a 1.1 the t .i. m,,~ . It is a stopgap measure, Mr. S p (,~ a kc,~ r . ~~hE! ,., Uw y <.H' e f o r c (>. d into a situation, it . is a knE!E ! jr~r·k :dt:LI·'"lt- .i.on . l,~e J'JII.JSI-: do somethjng . We have overmature t~Joocl dnd l·.h ·i.!; 111i .ll. crei~I-.UI"E! l·:(~n weeks work .

So I suggest the long l·.et•Jn. ll- l:hn Jfli.ni .stE!r l"e<~\l.ly wants to do somr:~thing to hE!] p the 1 1 n em p l. o y HH'! n l: s :i. t 1.1 a 1. i. o n a l J. o v E! r the Province, hE! should considE!r r.lnoi".hE!t' tJ.Joocl -r:i .r·ed gf:Hwrator· for tht::~ Bay d 1 F.spoir area which 1.vould hire bdck lhose 150 loggers who have been laid ofF because the gOV(:~r·nmE:~I11 : 1 S ha s rd:i.l.ed l~O get: a new agreement on the Federal Econonl"i .c ~:Jt:i.rnul.us Progr·arn. But the people of Roddickton 1 s concer·n ts gE:Hlu-i.nc-?..

Ti·Hdr· tn(:~rnber has made strong representation on thetr behalf and I seriously suggest the minister not consider isst.J:i.ng any fur'i":h(;!t' export l:i.C(:1nce in the Roddick ton arE!a. If they hRve to, if we h~ve to export No. 54 R2937

j o b s , ·oi. F ~~~ E:~ h r.1 v e n o ;-~ b ,,~ e n a b 1 c-:~ I~ o utilize our forestry, let us look at Bay d1Espoir and let us look at putting in an wood-fired generator ln Bay d1Espo:i.r to LISe,~ thE! overmature wood there. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Orders of the Day MR. SPEAKER: rhe han. the M:i.nistGr of Socia]. Services. MR. TOBIN: 111.1.1. 1\Jo. 113, Or·clr:~r ~Jo. :-34-. MR. SPEAI<F.l~: fl:iJJ No. 38. by UH:~ hon. Cr·c-.tve, LAJho has Debate was adjourned mmnbE:~r For· Por l·: de not spoken yet. The hon. the member for Port de Cn·we. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. EFFORD: Mr.

Speaker·, l:ht:! explanatory note here says, 11This Bill would prov-LdE:~ For the regulation of persons practicing agrology in the provincP.. 11 That, i.n itsc,~J.f, i.s something we are certainJ.y in ag re~em(HJ t IJJ i. th. H OI.IJE! v e r , i. 1.: g J v E:~ s 1-nt<:~ the opportunity, Mr. Speaker, in s p e a I< -L n g l: o I: h i. ~; p a r ·1·. -i. c 1 1l. rH' b · i. 11 , to express my concerns for the 1 0 C F.tl. fa t' lfH::H' S j_ n t h l, ~; p t' 0 IFi. rl C 0 . T. consider those peop]e as the forgotten people or !:hi.<; Provjnce.

Mi:Jrly 1:. i.mc,~ s IAJ(,~ IAJOI'ldE:H' r'Jb01.11: thE:~ hee1Jth :.yslem, 1.1.Je IAJO nd e r· about thE! f-:i.sher·men, dnd .i.f I~J(,~ h i:l v (,~ '" I. 2938 June 13, 1988 Vol XL gov e r·nmE:~nt r·c,~gu la I~ :i. ng or doing anything for these people, but IAJhE!n i. i: COirJE!S to the local farmers, Mr. Speaker, there are no people l.n l:hi.s Prov-i.ncc,~ any mor·e forgotten than those. Cll'tuse 2. (

h) says, 111 Pri"~cticing agrology 1 means, teaching, demonstral:ing or practically applying the science or the art of 1:1 g r :i. c IJ l. 1: u 1n e or· ad v l. s ""i. n g or· conducting scientific experiments an cl r· f'! s e •'I r· c h .i. n t' ('' 1. a I~ :ion to agriculture, as a chief oCC:llpaU.on. 11 Thai: i.s gn:!c~t. ThE! act provides for those spE~ci·alis ts l: o b (,~ "' b l t,~ L o p r i'l c 1·. -i. c c,~ t: h c;! -i. r· c h t c:' f occupation :in this PlnovinCE! tHJdE:!r f".ht=! r·eg11l.dl·.i.ons or ·l:he gover'l'liTIE~I'lt of this Province.

But IAJhat about the far·rnE:~rs :in the 1oc:dl. c'tr't,~ets? I l·:h··i.nk ·i:ht:! d .. i.s Lr··.Lct I rE:~present is a primE! (:~xarnplE~ of hOIAJ l.ocr'll. farlfiE!rS ;:~re br,~ i.ng treated. There arE! a couple of Farming comrrHHt·i.ti.E:~s oul:. i.n the:! district. One is in ShE!arstoiJJn, anothe:~r one-?. is i.n Br·:i.gus and another is the Country Road arecl. ThE:~Y ar·c,~ thr•t,H~ cornrnuni.l: . .ies IJJhich, up until the present day, years ago, had as I:. heir· total means of survival commercial farming. I must say, Mr.

SpeakE:~r, thE!re WE:~re qul. t.t,~ a l.ar·gc,~ number· bac I< a decade ago, and they were very, V(:H'Y successful.. Thf'' far·rrring :industry was carried on and pas SE!d dOIAJI1 frorn farrdl.y ·i··.o hlln"i.J.y, to sons and daughters who wi.shed to car· r y o n . T 1·: h a s be t~! n f.l generation of farming interest out ;:: h E:~ r· e ··i. n +: h a l: p a r +: i. c 1 1l. a r· a r· c,1 d . N OlJJ, MIn . S p 10:~ a I< e r , you c l'l n s c,~ e thE! df:~cl. "i.nc,~.

Yo1.1 r:r:-~n ~;c:!r,~ l:hr~ pE~opl.e are getting away from it. !":-311 rc,~ yr,~ar·s ago IIIOS +·. c,~vt,1r·ybody had a VE:~gE:~table gatndE:~n and E:~a c h ind:i'J .. i.dudl. pt~!r·~;on g r·E~l4J thr:dr 01~11'1 No. 54 R2938

i: h E;>"i_ r l)IAJI"l vegetabl.c~~s livelihood. for That, for a numbE!r of reasons, peopl.(~~ have got. ten atAli!lY from, and it is understandably so ~H~CdiJS(:~ sornet::.i.nH~~s ·i.t: -i,:; dH~i:lpE:H' to buy than to grow on your own. Bu l: when :i. t~ comes i:o I: he} fi'lrltlC:!r's tAl h 0 a ln E~ d 0 :i n g j t f 0 ln C 0 rrtl'll E! r C i i.'ll reasons •'ll'lcl ;:~ rnt-:~iHl~> of !>llr·cri .c;;~l., to hav~::~ thosE:~ peop1E:! neglectE:~d thE:~ IAJi'\Y 1-:hE:~Y hi'll)

f) b~)E!I'l rlE:~gJPr:l:C:!d by o tH' g o v E:~ 1" n m E:Hl t , j s i:l s :i. t u i~ t :i o n I c a n n o t j u s 1--_ -L f y j_ n :; p e a k :i. n g tAJ i i: h those people. I just:. not·i.cf~d a coupl.c,~ of tAJt::!eks ago out West, when they had the d r o u g h t. o u t t h e r· (:~ , ti-H?. f i r· s 1:. ~-h :i n g the federal government came up with was another $12 or $14 million to help them through thE! serious times they were having. We have no argument with that. I think last year they subsidized them to the tune of $1 billion, and we havE:~ no argument IAJ:i. i:h that.

If the farmers out West, the far·mE:~rs of Ont-:r·:n·i.o, ner~d il::, surE!, thE!Y should get: the subsirly. There is nobody going to stand in the House of AssembJ.y and sdy, 1 T·:-lkc~~ i3: d.I~Ji:\Y frorn onE=J gr·ottp and give j t to anot:hE!r group of pc,~opJ.e. 1 Httl-: tAJ!,~ hi'\CH~ f<H'IllE!r'!; i_n otn · loc.:~l area, farmers around rurdl Nf:!l!ifc)llncllanc:l, I!Jho, t!Jhen t-:hoy r.1pply for· ~;orne assJstance or· tAJhen they go ·I·_ o 1--. h t~ p r· o v -L n c: :i. a l go c; t~ r n rn c,1 n 1· o r· the federal government, all they receive is a deaf ear.

ThEH'e t.o~JdS an P.Xdrnple las 1: y(~ar and over the last: SE!Veral year·s. The worse thing which hds been hurting the local farmer is moose. Moose have been g(-:!t.ti.ng 'i.nto the fru·rns and destroying thousands and thousands of dollar·s wor·th of crops, and no assistance is provided for the farmers 1..2939 June 13, 1988 Vol XL IAJhOSCH~V(~r. Ther·c,~ i.~> no such l:h.-i.ng MR. J. CARTER: Yo11 Cr:·ln ~; hoo L ;;t rnoos e. MR. f:FFORD: Yott Cdn shoo:: a moose, bu:: you cannot regrow the vegetables he 1·1 <'~ ~' d "' !) 1: r· o y C'! rl . ~v h r.l'i-: 1:: he m t~ 111 ~HH' For· St.. John 1 s Not"th (Mt". J.

Cdrter) is si'lying is exactly right, you can shoot a moose. 1"1·1·'11- :i.s anot-.her· point T IAIC:ll"il- _ to talk about. T 1.ui.'l.l gi.ve you an t'!Xdrrtplc::~: One farmer from Shears town last yeatn, tAJho had plan ·t.('!d h i.s cr·ops and tAJas growing his crops, had to stay up ail night long, aft.t~~r be-i.ng in t:he fiE!lds aJ.l day, to keep thE! mooSE! off his proper~y. He could not afford financially to hire someone to s t a y up . ThE.~ r e i. s no tAla y he could do it. He just did not have the money l:o do :i. t_, so he, his uJi fe, and son had to guard the Farm all. nighL.

When daylight carne, he had to get out of the i:r1.1C:k, i'l.f ·l-·.er· s·i+·_ ·L·i.ng th(:!r'E'! all night tAJatching the farm, thE!n hE! hac:l i:o go in l:o Lh(;~ f:i .(,~l.d~;. 1'-11~. J. CARTER: They were (Jnaudjb]

e) on our farms . MR. F.FFORD: lhc,1 tnc,~tni:H '!r' for· ~>t . John's ~Jor·th (Mr. J. Car·ter) can spl'::~ak to this c'l f '1: e rt~Jd r c:l S . [ h i·llJ (;~ C'l f e lA I p 0 j_ rl t S [ want to make and it is irnpor·t:ant -1: o rn y cJ-:i. s 1: r··i c t-_ T iHrt sur·{~ you a r· e well aware of the farming sit.u<.~t:i.on and you can g i.VE! your own views on it. serious. We These points are very <H' c~' n o t 1: a l k i n g a b o u t grow a few vegetables own us'~ and .i.f somebody few carrots, they can local grocery store. No . 54 peoplE~ tAJho for thE:~ir tears go to We up a the a r·e R2939

h~l.k i.ng a bcw t "l:hOIISdl'ldS i:1nd thousands of dollar·s of produce d~~s l·:ro~ed by ani.mals. I" he-:~ y IAJE!I'li': last: yea I" and they tr·ir:~d to get s ()If)(.;! dSS i.stanccc1 to h 'i r· f~ on peopl.t~ to stay up in thE! night and IJJa t c h t: h l:~ far·rns bu l: UH~Y had no l.L1ck. I even IJJent to thE! DepartmE!nt of So c i a l Set' vi. c e s i n HHc1 a r· e a , w h c·:n· e they put put in community development. pr·oj ect.s, 1-.o pr·ov"i.cle assistance for the fanners and IJJe sl::i.ll could not gel: l:hcc~rn to understand the SE!riousnE~ss of the si.tudl:i.on.

A t o n cc1 p o ~i. n 1:. , 1 t. h i n k , l: h c~ y s <'l j_ cl thc-:!y li.IOuJd put· one rnan ther·E:~ for one shJfl··. but thai: oi.s no good bc-:!causr:~ you have a pr-.:1ri.od of dr.'lrknr:1ss From, sdy 9 o'clock, J.i:~st YE:!i'H' but not so now, untiJ 6 o ' c 1. o c k UHc~ n c,1 x 1: HI!H' n i. n g , i"l n d y o 1 1 n f~ E! d a t: l f:! a S t ·H11n f:H:~ 0 r f 0 lH' p f:10 p] E:~ 1.:0 11Jdtch r'\n dt'(~d li.kc,1 l:hdl-.. a very serious problem.

Tf you hi:tve d r· o u g h l·: , o r· whatsoever any i'.J For of probJ fWI dl"lY t:he Tt ·i.:; lAd t. h rCc161SOI'l local F <'.l r me r· s l. o s Co! t h Ed. r· p r o d u c e , t h E! r Cc1 is absolutely no assistance from this governmE!n'l:-. l:o h1::1lp thcc~rn ovPr' the difficult times. I was just speaking lclst week with a local group, and another one of t.hr:~ pr·oblr:Hns i:hf~ farrrHo!t'S have encountered was the problem of tr·ying t-.o gel: l-LrnE~stonc~1 to pui·: on thr:~ ground.

NotJJ, they are ready to plant thc->.i.r· crops and l·:hc~~IJ have->. absolui:E!ly no limestone and it is sornc~t.h·i.ng thr.lt shouJ.cl have bf~t~n looked at six months ago. MR. r-l.IRFY: Y o u c d n g r:~ 1: i. t·: a t: 11 a rd. Co! l. ' :> :·I r.n· b r)ll r· . r'lr~. FFFOfW: r~o, -thE:!y gov E! r·n1111::~ n+·. CCII"lnOt gE:~t it . i. s no 1.: l·i. s +:en in g This l:o L 291.1-0 June 13, 1988 Vol XI HH:Hfl. Tf ·i. i-. J. :; d l-_ ()llr' di.sposal heJ"e in the ProvinCE!, or if jt has l:o C OlfiF.! Fr·om outsidr~ l~ h Co! Pr·ov-.in c P, why do thE! farmers have to wait 1.1 n +: i.

J. dfh::~r· 'L h ~~ ple1ni~ ing Sf~c':\SOI'l comes before someonE! is going to l.i.stf~n l:o tht~lfl? It is great to have it up in Daniel's Harbour but it is no good in Daniel's Harbour when it is l"'lo!cprLr·c-:!d .i.n a commtH1"i.ty out in ConcE!ption Bay, or a community in r r· :i. n J l: y fl a y , o r· :L n 1·: h E! h o n . SpeakE!r' s district, out in Terr~a 1\J o v a , b c~ c a u s e t h C:! r· e a I'' E:! l o c a 1 farmers all over the Province.

Tho s CO! p c~~ o p 1 c:! a r' l:' tJ ~'! r' y i.1 n p o r' t ..:1 n t because here we are as a g o tJ t:! r n rn f'! 11 t l· r·y -i. n g 1·. o p r· o v i. d "' j o b s and trying to cr·eatc->. jobs for thE! peopl.1-~ of' th·i.~; Pr·otJ:i.nc"!, dnd hE:!t'E:! we have a group of people who need no onn l:o l:r,1r.lch Hwrn ho1~1 +.:o cr·c=!a h:! jobs, no onE:~ to t.E:~ach thE!rn how to g I" Ohl c r· o p s , or· no o n e 1··. o t: E'! a c h them how to operate equipment. They drc,~ I~IH J J. VE:~r·s r,~d -:i. n t.hcl t .. That is not their pl"oblE:11TI. ThEd.l~ p r· o b l ro! n 1 ·i. s t h a i·: 1·: h n y n f'!

Co! d financial assistance i.n difficult l:.i.rne~; iHJd thdt 'i.s 1~1ha l.: l.o~JP. hij!Ve l:o try and get through to this govcc~rnmE:~ni:. At different times during thE! Surnrnc->.r' a farmc->.r' can <->.mploy up to forty of fifty people, in weeding, 'i. 11 f t1 n c :i. n g , c l E~ a r· J n g o f 1 a n d , IJJ h c,1 n they take their crops out of thE! g r· o 1.111 d , and Uw sell -L n g of c r· o p s .

AJ.J. along the highways and local comrnun-Ll·::i.es in t.he Pr·ov'i.ncto! you see, from time to time, people 11Ji.·l·:h VE:~gr::!i:ablE~ s t·.dnds std: up on the side of the road and they (,~lflfll.oy pr:~opl.t:1. rhE:~Y f~lrlpl Olj pt~opl.e to do it and that is what this g 0

l) f:H' I"HfiC'! 1·1 i: i. S S 1,1 p p 0 S (cH:I t 0 I:H~ d 1.1 a b o u t a n d t. h a t. i s IAI h a t. we s h o u 1 d b1~ do i.ng. T h e 1J d r' t'! no l. ask"i.ng fnr money to No. 54 R2940

do that. That is not the financial assistance they are s et:1 k-Lng. Tht:~ y arE:~ s (~e k .i.ng financial assistance for problems in tha Spring of the ye~r with moose and animals destroying C r 0 p S , r:'l n d I~J h (Hl i··. h l:~ y h cl V e 1'1 /":\ "1: II Y' a 1. problems Ji.ke 1..ueather, or· some o i-h P r d e,~ s 1:: r u c i: i. o n o F 1·: h r,~ i_ r· r: r· o p ~> .

Psrhclps the minister, when ~;pHClk:ing, can address those~ coupJe of tl·dngs I br·ough ·l: 011-1".. ll: -i_~; a question all the local farmers r:-l r· o u n d +: h E:1 Pro tJ :i. n c e,~ ,:q i" (~ "' s k ·i. n g "' n d a question they are cer·tainJy goj_ng to I'H~e,~d r~Hl di1Sl~Jcr· For. Tl-: j s not urdque lo one year·. It is c:1 continuous problHm Fr·om yr:!<H' l.:o yE:1ar. So wit.h those few words, Mr. S p e a k e r· , I am s u r r.,~ t. h e r· E:~ a r e o t. h r.·:"! r colJ eagues who want to bring out some other· po ·i.n ts.

That was just particularly for my own district and some ques ti.ons 1..ue IAJould like to have answered. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPf.AKFR: The han. the member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTFR: Mr. Spc,1aker, I r'Hdlly tiJ.:'lnU:1d ·1-.o rnakE:! a feiAJ comments IAJh:i.J E:~ H1e:1 mr,~rnbt:1r I~Jr.lS SfH:1r:lki.ng, bui ~ l:hdi: ·i.:; Cl] l":ight. I r·espect h:i s dr::'sire to nol: be ·i.nt:er·rup ·I-P.d . J ,,Ji.ll . j11sl: make a few comments on his cornrnt:1nts. I arn not: di.~>pl.li": i.ng sowe of his r·emarks, but I lo\Jould 1ii<E:1 ·to a1npl.i.fy l:hr.-~1n.

T h e r· e c: E:~ r h:\ i. n l y i. s ct p r o b l. e m IAJi. t h moose breal<i ng into farms and they are i.mpossi.ble l::o l<e(:~p out.. Thc~re is no fence I knouJ of IAJhich could ke:1ep out a moose. I supposr:! :i.f you made one of telegraph poles L2941 .June 13, 1988 Vol XI . and had bar·bu.dre:1 Udrty fc~e-?.t hi.gh, you would probably keep ti1E!m out, bu 1: I have Sl>.~>.rl moose r·un thr·ough the th:i ckest kind of woods. They rH'e v ('!Y'Y hardy an:i.mc~\1 s i:-l nd I think it I..Uould be quite a fenCE! which I!JC)Iil.d ket;!p thc,Hn oul:.

T c ;,, n s H (-) i·: h (:! () b j l~ c i.: :i. () n t () shooting them outright I for angr·y f r:-'1 r'Tfll:"! t' :; j II S 1·. 1-0 S h 0 0 1: 1': h H ITI, because that lo\JO u 1 d be u n super u j_ sed ~; hoo t·.-i ng. The! '1 n s 1.1 pc:!rv·oi. s ('!d, fl~ivoJous discharge of a r·ifJ.e,1, b 11 I: T rl o !; u \_:] g C'! ~; ·1·. t: h ;:1 ·: ·_ <:·l 11 y Fa I" rn e r· who is threatened with destruction of h·i !; cr·ops by 1110ose should appJ.y very quickJy to the department for a 1noo~;r::~ Ji.cenc:e For any mooSE! found on his land.

I ti-d 11k if a 111HnbE:H' of sor.ious i.:1ppli.cations were made:~, thE!Y would bE! granted and t. he re:1 uJo ul d be no s u c h 1: h t n g as a closed season. WE!l1, I do not imagine that you would need one in the winter, but certainly anytime during the Summer, I am sure there would be 110 problem I:: herr.-:~. I think our whole attitude towards moose,~ i.s si:r'<;lngf:!. We-?. pr·obably allow for more moose I or a larger pop1 .1l.a ·i--_:i_ on of rnoo s e~ t.o ocr.: u t' 1-: han the environment can properly sllppOi"l:.

Pr·obr'lbl .y 1'1e shoul.d increase the number of licences so (:hey I~JOIIl.d be l_~)S~> C:Oflllll011. On f:hc~ o1:hP.r' hoHtd, r:l 111005Co1 'i.s a peculiar· animal 'in that its bcu:k Fc,,wl: go r··i .gh!: do,,m ·i.n l:he ~>pace its fr·ont fE:1et tAlent dolo\111 j n. I h ;,w e s e e n 1: h e ltl 1: r· o s :; o v E! r r:> F :i. r.'! l. d and they an~ vei"Y, ver·y neat Foott:~d. Thc->.y do no 1·: Lri:lmpl.e crops, they eat.: them. But -thE!.Y iH'c,~ vco~r·y s11re footed and very nimble footed and they do not tend to do much darnc.·\gH by cr·osslng, thE!Y tend to lift their feet over any obstr·uc t.-Lon.

ThE!Y i:'.lre not destructive animals in that No. 5'1 - R2941

sense:!. I haVE:! oftcoHl thought, ·jf you could poss-.i.bly t··.amE! one,~~ :i.l: 1~101.1ld be <.'l l.I.Jonder· drafl animal or for· use in -1-.:he,~ field. Agd:i.n 1 ·l·_hf.~ depc:~rtrnt:!nt in l ts IAri sdom, or J.ack of wj sdom, doE~S nol: allo1,o.1 pc,~opJ.c,~ to Cdl.:ch young moose and tame them. Which I -l::hink~ i.s a pi.l:.y because thE:~'J are :interesting animals, quite intelligent and certalnl.y they would not be expensive to feed. They would be very easy to feed. On the rnatte'!Y' of he-?.l.p to fc:tr'rnE:~rs, there is a great deal more which could be done-?.

I should bto~ done,~ I and I think it is incumbent upon a11 of IJS l:o kE!<,~P Hw pr·c,~ssur·l·'! on government and thoSE! in authority to se8 t·.hesr,~ qu~~s l::i.ons raisf~cl. M r-?. m b c,~ r s rn f~ n 1: :i. o n E:~ c:l t hE:~ q 11 f:~ s I·. i o n about Jirnc-?.stom~. Most of our soil -:i. s ex t··. r f:HIIe l y a c i. d and IAHc~ do . h.:~ v c;! a g r· c,~ i::l t n E-H:! d f o I" 1 i m t~ s l: o n f.~ . l' h 1':1 co!;1: tn l.·i.rne~;+:one .i.~; not 'i:hn co~; 1.: j n getting j t. It :is thE:~ cost of I: r d n s p o r t .i. n g -j_ t·. .

F lJ E! n .~·1 lJ 1,1 t' y s rn 01 J 1 t r· u c I< l o i::l d of a n y t h :i n g a n y c:lisl.:ance is very exp~ns lue those days. · My pc-?.i-. concf~r·n. and I t.h.i.nk t.hto~ Minister of Agriculture and the M i n :i. s t '~ r· o f T r a n s p o r· t a t :i. o n s h o u 1 d gl':~t together on this. I remembE!r when this building was built. fii"St, the land was cleared and all the top soil was pushed up into a big pi1e. It should have bE:~en rE>.spc-?.cted and -i.t should helVe been guarded and perhaps it should have bE~en fE:~ncE:~d off I but i.l-. evaporated. People carne by and helped l::he:Hns~~lv(~S.

Tl·lf:!y figur<,~d I 'We]], nobody is goi.ng to use it so IJJt:1 1rd.ghi': as I1H~ll l'li:'ll)c:! :;orne.' I do no 1.: suggr:.!s1-: +:hi'\ t-. lA a~ shouJ.d d'i.sprouE:~ of th:is ld nd of thing, bu l: T do ~)llggc,~!>-1". i.F l <'1 r· g f:~ L 294-2 JunE:~ 1.3, 1988 Vol XI. quant'i.ti es of pE!et werl':~ d(-?.posi.tE!d 01'1 dt'\j Si-<:·1bl1::~ 9t'OIIi'lcl i'\CCP.SSi.ble fr·orn a h:ighway, :it too IJJou]d rl i. ~> A p p 1,~ d r· l: o l: he'! g r· (:~a t·: bE:~ n E! f ·:i. 1-. of aJl the gardens and many of the fdrms and fat'fiiE:1rs ;.u·ound hc·>.r'E!.

It would not require that the g o v <,~ r n 111 e n i·: d o a n y t h "i. n g o t: h e r· t h i:'l n just make great heaps of it so 1·: h.:~ 1-: -i_ +: lAid~: '-~ c c (~~;sib lt,~ . l 1:: h :ink this wou1d do us much good. The amount of good it would do is :i. n c i:'ll c u lab 1 c:! b (,~ c d us('! 1:: hat "'i. s IJJh at our soil needs. It needs more organic matt.c:lr. I Ul'i.nk IAH,~ should keep our eyE!S opl':~n for evE:~rything 11Je:~ can do for far111ers. The:! Sprung Greonhouse I !<noiAJ i.s a sore point L~d th somE! me rube r s oppos:i.t·.c,~, bui-.

T l.:hi.nk l::l'w technology bei.ng developed there is c 1-:~ r· ·1: '" i. n 1 y go -i_ n g to b t:! worthiAJh:i le. It aJ lows us to conl:r·ol l:hE~ c:!l'llJ"i.t·onrnE!I'li:·. <~nd to answer qul':~slions IAJhich may takE~ a .l.'i. f o i: i.1nu l:o c:u1 s1~u,~ r· o 1: h <·H'IAri. s e . You can go through many seasons and 111<-Hl y r~ rnri. r· 1) n m"' n ·1: :> r'lll. ·i. n <:'' flld 1:: t t:! r· of probably a Few IAJeE~ks, and :it p r· o rni. s () ~; a v n r· y :in t: t;! r· e s t: :i. n g development. Anyway, that is a connnent for rH,~xt k~f:H~nesday.

I do think we should be more concE:~r·ned aboul-. !·.:he pl.:ight of t:he farmers. We haVE! enough problE!ITIS lAd l:: h -t.l-H~ IAH:h" t h E~ r , l. e t <:'11 o n e anything else. So, with those few remarks, I will sit down. MR. WFLLS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. i.hE~ I ()CJdc;!r of thE! Opposition. MR. WELLS: r•'lr' . ~-) p (,~ a k () r· I r h d lH) 0 n 1. ') a f C'!IAI No. 54 R294-2

.. .r. words l:o say ;~bout this matter· . I am happy to support the bill. Thert-?. -Ls nothing of gr·eat consequence in it, except perhaps for ;~gr·ologis l:s. To agr·olog'i.s ts, I am sure the bill is important. Rut it prompts comment on the s t a l:: eo?. of r:l g r· i. c u l t u r· ~~ ·i. n o 1.1 r Provl.nce along the li rH:~s of those COTlllli<:Hlts HJ<'ldE:~ by the,~ hon. mc,~rnber for Por·t de Gr·ave (Mr·. Ffford).

I do nol: kno1~1 1~1hai ··. prornpl".s t·h -i.!> bi.l.l . at Lh:ls t.:imE:~, if thE!rE:~ ts a sudden i n c r (~ a s e 'i. n l: h E:~ n 1.1 1 11 b I:H' o f agrologists around or an increased l t:~ v E! l o F 'i. n t e r· E:~ ~; t · i. n l: h o agrologJsts who are around. P (~ r h d p s 1: he rn i n i. s l. t': r· lfl i. g h t l: c~ l l. us, or maybe t:-hr:H·e j s sorne o'l:hE!r rnoU .vE:~ . CJ.earJ.y i:he ProiJ:i .ncc ,~ i.s dire need of the kind of help that exper·ts in t:hi.s fi.E:~ld can g·i.tH '. Our vegetable production, root crop and othc;!riAJi. s r:~, l'ldS dE:~ c rr:~a s e-?.d ovE:~r the years.

There was a time IAJhe'!n 1..11e used to produc<:~ 61 fa .. i.r· quantity of the vegetables we consumed in this ProvLnce. T.f one:~ r·eads l:he Hous~~ Cornrni.ssi.on Report, you cannot help but be struck by 'dH:dr corrnrH :Hltar•y. I:f the figures arE! correct, and I arn as sure:~d 'I:. hey arE:~, but T. do noi ·. ki'IOIAJ !Ali th certainty, but assuming tho s e f :i. g u r e ~; a r e cor r r~ C:: , i. n 1. 9 ?. 1 Newfoundl.and produced some 95 rn :i. 1. 1 'i. 0 n p 0 I Hl d :; 0 F p

C) Uli : 0 e ~; I o:l n d i n ]98] Newfoundland pr·oducr::H.J sorn~~ 9 rn:i.1l.i .on po11nd~; of pol.dl:oH:;, l.c~s:; -t-.hiHI on~·!· ···'l: eni-.h of 1~1hat we IAJerE! p r· o d 1 1 ': oi. n '3 J. n l 9 2 1 . 1,~ h y ? The poor old po·i .c'11-.0 hdS not changed ver'y much. It is pretty much t h~~ s arrH:~ . No ci01.1bt: ·i:hey ht'tve gotten mor·e disease resistant v a r ·i. ~~ t :i. r:~ s . '[ 1·: ·i. ~) pr·oba.bly ~~dS'.i.t!t' to grow them. The ground has not changed v ~~ r y much. lt: i (~ ·"' a f r!\ :i. Y' bet the weather has not changE:d a L2943 June 13, 19B8 Vol.

XL great deal either -i.n thE:' intervening sixty years . So, we should have been able to produc~~ a good deal rnor'C"! and h;~d a much greater chance of success at. pr·oduc:i.ng on an c:~con01rd .c bc!\si.s a great deal more of the potatoes we cons 11 rnc,~ l: h.:-\ n 1~1e h d v e of p r· o d u c -I. n g the cucumbers we consume, and, i.n p i'l r· l·. i c ul d r' , p r· o d 1 1 r: .. i. n 9 c u c u rn b E! r· s which people fr·orn Ontario and Q 11 o b (! c d r· ,,, l': o c o n s 1.1 rn l:! I" , n r' p (·~ o p J. ~:! from Roston are to consume. I hctve no l h (;!

IYi.l.l dj ffer·encr::~ gr·eat IAJ'i l,l_ conf:idence In·~ kc :~ i'l ll. tha l: t. h ~~ -1:. h ~=! in ·the WOJ"] d to f I I L l.ll" e

C) r i'1 9 r· -j_ c ul . l: I I t' e 'i. n t h -.-L s Province, unless I hear d ·i. f F c,~ r e:~ n i: l. y f t' o rn 1~ h ~~ 1r1 i. n :i. s 1:. ~~ r· IAJ hen he stands up. I do not rE!ally exp1-)c 1: l:o do so. If the government had taken morE! .i.nb:!rE:~s+: :i.n Uw t'E!rill fannc;!rS of this Province, and pE!r'haps had made i:\Vai 1abl.E~ l:.o the r'e-?.al far·rners of this Province somE:~ or all of the $15 mi.ll.ion which was put into that madcap scheme out in Mount PHdrl., t.he IAJholc~~ Provi.ncc"1 wotJld have been infinitely better off. MR. J. CARTER : Do yotr rer.~1ly l:.h i.nk tha ·l:? MR .

WEL tS: Yes, I r~Ja11.y think th;:li: . +:IH:~ hon. Jllelnbf: ~r· for· ;')'(:. North, in his heart of bl'!l.·i .c,~lJ(~~; ·i 1: d:; I)Jf:'ll, but rnai<E1 certain statements I k nOlA) John' s he:~arts, ha s l:o :in thE:! H 0 IJ :; C:~ I~Jh ·i. C h IOU •; l: r fh·\lJ. y g r· r'\ i-.1'! i'l'i In to make I know. This biJl, as I say, Mr·.

Speaker·, i:\ s c o rnrn 1':~ n d i'\ b J. e:1 dS :i. l: mdy be->. for· the number of agrologi.sts :i.n the Pr·ov:i .nce, IAJ:i.l.J. probdbly do v c-?.r'y little to enhance or improve our a g r· i. c u J. i: l.l r· a l p r' o d u c L i. o n Ot' our· vegetable production in this No. ~)IJ. R2943

PI"Ov:i n c e. Not1.~ri ths tand:i ng 't h~) r':'1 d V i. c (~ '1: h r'1 t L he 9 o v Co) r I'll fl H n i ·. h d d received from agrologists, the g 0 lJ (~ t' I'HIIl::~ 1'1 '1: ~; 1: -i,l.l, pI' 0 C e Co~ rl ro~ d I~Ji. +·. h th(~ madcap scheme-:! out in Mount p (

o) r\'1 r· J. I (o~ l) (:~ n i·: h () u g h t h (:) a g t' () l. () g i. s L :; on ~; t c:tff -· MR. J. CARTER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. WELLS: He thinks there is a point of order? MR. SPEAKFR: The hon. the member for St.. John 1 s Nori-.h. MR. J. CAIHF.R: I do and I think a g r' Co~ r~ t,o.ri. i-:11 lfll'! . Mr. Speak(H', j f accusai·:ion dl'ld the Sp~~a k er will rn oiH' ciJlt.tH'c-:~, someone mak~~s an r· <::) rnr'l i. n s i.1 (:) n t , l,o..IE! that. is takc~n a" ·' approval or r'lg t'E!f~IIICoHl i:. TI·H-~ l .. co~r'ldCoH' of thro~ Oppos "i. L·i.on (r"'r. lllleJ 1

s) j s going on taJ king about t h C::) ~') f>r' 1.1 n 9 p r· o j r,~ c 1·. d s i. f i. L i ·; <:1 madcap schE:~mE:~. That is his r:ight dnd pr·oit.Ji.J.t=!9!o~ to i·h:i.nk so. T 1-. i.s even his right and privilege to say so . T t,o.Jo u l. cl sup p or· L h :i. s r i. g h t to say so. By the same token, if those of us who he<;~r· i.t and do not bc::~l-Lev~~ i.t remain silent, it is construed by rna n y , by l: hE:~ pub J. 'i. c c Co~ r· tat n l. y , not by anyone in the House pas sibly, b1Jt by th~~ gencoH'al ptJbl.i.c that 1.11e agree with his statement.

This particular member does not agrE!B IAJi.th hi.s st.a-1-:(:~ITICo~n·l: and I am not going to stt silE!ntly 1..uhjle s t:range and pecul·i.i:lr' s Lr'l+·r~JnPnts 1.1d t.h which I do not agr(::e and oFfr~nsi.ve s·l:at:c::)lflr~n!~:; r:1r·e rnadr;!. T 1.~94-4 June 1.3, 19BB Uol XL. think j t is not onl.y my r:i ght. and rny pr··i.tri.l.f~9E! 1:o gt=!l: 1.1p and say so, but I think it is my duly. SOME HON. MFMBFRS: l·lc,~rH', hocH'! AN l-ION. MEMBFR: A g o o d p o i rl'i: of o r· d c-?. r . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order, there is no point of order. The hon.

I:: he::~ Le.:tdl;!r' oF t.he Opposition. MR. WELLS: r: am 6\t~Ji:'ll"r::!, Your· Honour, thE! l.E!qal. phrase for it is 1res ipsa l o q u i. i: o r· 1 , :i. t s p c,) a k s f o t' -L t s e l. f . Obviously there is no point of ord(o~r. The mr~mi:J(:)r cc:1n SfH~ak and express his opinions at any ti.mE!. He do:'~S not nr~ed i:o r·i.se on a point of Cinder. As I 1..uas saying, Mr. Speaker·, I do 11 b 1: 'J P r· y rr11.1 c h -i_ f UJ"i. :; b '.'i.l.l IAJ"i.l J. do anything for vegetable pr·ocltJc-i·:i.on ·i.n 1:1Yi.s Pr·otJincr:! or for· the farmers of this Province IJ 1'1 J !'!

S :; IAJ!:) 1-J ('! r'lr' cJ l. f f E! I" en 1-. l. y f r• 0 fn the rrd.nister l,o.JhE:~n he sp~~aks. And I tlJO ul. d b ~:~ v E:) r· y p 1 E~ a s f:• cl 1·.: o h Par· it. I was going on to say the agroloy .. i.st Uw gov~:!r·nmen t had on its payroll for many years advised th(~ governrnen 1: strongly against getting involved in the Sprung scheme to pr·oduce cucumbers for the Ontario and Boston markets. Nevertheless, the government proceeded 1..ui th it as though they cl-..i.cl no!-.: hav(~ thai~. adv"i.cr'! or· as though the agrologist did not know t,o.J h d t h r~ IAJa s l: a 1 k "i. n g abo u I~ .

E v Co~ n when that agrologist advised the govr,~rnrnen+: Lhr:! pr·odiJC 1·:..-i.on pr·oposed in the Sprung project was probably doubl!,) llJhal: l:hr::'Y could rr~r-d::i./.P i.n No. 54 R2944-

fact and thai: thl->.:ir• cos ·t involved of producing it LIJouJ.d grE!atly C'!XCEH!d t.he valuE:~ of 1-.he crops pr·oduced, thE:~Y still went on and the cost of it has escalated a further $4 million on top of what 1 ... 1as or·ig:i .nal.l .y E:~Xpl'!Cb~d. So t.I·H,~ situation is that much worse. I do not know LIJhat the agrologist would say t.odo:~y if h(:~ IAH"!r·c,~ fr·c"!(.'! 1-.o express his opinion publi ely. It ·i.s unfortunal-.:c,~ hi:'! i!; not.

Tl·. -i_!; unfortunate the government, while !-.hey p<:·\Y 'I': he llldn, k c-~c,~ps lri.rn lri.dden and pl"t~vented from bEd ng abJ e to exprr~ss to l:h~::~ l:dXf-ldYI'!t'!; of l.:h·i·; PIn o v ·ln c: e h :i. s s :i n c EH' E:~ p r· of e s s :.i. o 1'1 a l o p j_ n i. o n ,".J. s -1: o IJ.J h d 1". s h o 1 1l. d b !-:' cJ o rH,~ l41:i th that faci J j ty j n Mount Pc,~atnl. Mr. Sp(:~aktH', I lAd] J be inter·ested :i. n h c,~ t'l. r .i. n g w h '"~ 1~ 1: h c,~ 10 i. n "i. s l: c::~ r· h d s to say as to the extent to which Hri s b i l.

J. or o r. h e:H' end e r.\V o u r s o F the depar·t ·ment are J ikely to hr:~l.p the a g r ·i c u J. 1: u r· a l .indus t. r y J n t. h ·i_ s Province and as to when the government will. come to its senses and terminate the provision of funds l:o t.l·,,:~t maclci:tp schE~ml-) so those funds can be made available to the real Far'ITHH'S oF th:i .s Province so they can contribute to t. h e e c o n om y of 1-. h P P r o v :i. n c H a n d contribute to the general well -being of the people . Thank yc)IJ, l'-1r. Sp(~akc,'r. SOME HON. MFMAERS : HE:~ar·, ht~ar! 1'-11~ . F U R F Y : Mr. Spr,~r'l.kt'!r . rJ! ~~ .

S P F A I< F R : The hon. the mr:~mber· for St.. Barbr:~. MR. f'LIRfY: Mr· . ~3pedkf.!r, T have j u:; l: a COi.ipJ.e of points which perhaps the rn :i. n i. s i: E! r· could ;:;~ d d r' P !> s 1~1 h C"! n h 0 1.2945 June 13, 1988 Vol XL rises to clo!>e dPbate . T I~Joul.d ltkc.;! to knoiJJ, Mr. SpE:~aker, why Newfoundland and Labrador is t h 1::~ o n l. y P r o v oL n c e r· ·i. g h t a c r' o s s t. h e country, of aJ.l of the ten prov'i.nc(~S, w:i.t:ho1.1'1: an agr· .. i.cul tur··c-ll agreeme!nt.

I referred to it last: WHdnr:~sddy in dHbr.ll ... r:~ on l·:hr~ Pr·.ival:.e Members' motion from the han. rrH~Ini:H~r for· Sl: .. John's 1\Jor·th, lAJhl:!n he blush :ingly b1nought in tha t p r· i. v d t f'! M (o! In b r;! r· ~; I r~ u s

I) l u I· i. 0 n dealing with the Sprung cucumbers . Ther·e is a lot. of ot:hE!r' PE:'Opl r:~ . r·k . ~:)pt!akc)t', qll 'i.·ly ·i.nl ·:r,~rc;! s l·r:!cl Ln knoiJJ:ing LIJhy jt. -.is IJJe ar·E:~ the only p t' 0 l) . i. 1'1 C 0 IJ.J :i. i ·. h 0 I I ·!: r'\ 1'1 d g r' :i. C Ll J C. U r• d. 1. agreement. for its farmers right a c t' o ~; :; l: h r,~ n d t·. ·i. o n . P t:• r· h a p s 1:: h ,,, ac ·U ng, or· the for·rner·, mini .ster· c i'l n ~~ e l.l us why . He IAJ:i. J. 1 k now -1: o o , fr·orn our' research WE:~ know the PresidE!nt of U·1E! Nr'!IAJfoundl.and and Labr·ador Federation of Agriculture, Mtn.

Ht'!IJJi.l:l:, on l:he WE!st Coas ·t. has IJJr'i tten to his countE!rpari: in Ol:tawa . i·ll'! says d nu111ber· of· interesting things about what is hap p e n :i. n g 1-. o i.-\ g r· i c u 1 t u r· C"! .L n 1·: hi s Province. He says, for example, that llAJo years ago we were ~old by the federal Department of Agriculture, <'l n d 1·. h f:~ y :i. n s ·i s i": ~~ d , 1 ... h a t o u r· agricultural agreement would be si .gn(~d llndc,~r- l:hc~ Ti:?IJ() pr·ogr'arn .

Just days ago, he gOE!S on to say, h ~~ p n r· s o n d l l. y '~k\ ~; I: o l. cl , b u '1:: h by our pr·ov:i nciaJ rrr.in:i s t·EH' ·- not thE! fot'liH:H' 1n ·i.iri.s1:r,~r·, IJ.Jho :i.s go ·ing t.o speak in debate but · thE! nolAJ c 11 rt' t-) n 1-. p r· o wi . n c i. d l. rrri n :i. s '1:1 ::~ r , ~1 r· . Power - and Mr. Rtll GouJ ding of '1: h ,,~ o f (' i. c: e:~ o f l: he H o n . J o h n Crosbie, ·that far·rners helVe an o u '1: l :i. n r:~ f o r agreement where funding levels have been agreed upon, and i·:h; :1i:. the sourc0 of funds No. 54 R2945

haS S 1".: 'i. l.J. l"l 0 t b IHHl :i. d (:~ 1"1 i: i. r i. (~ J . Mr. ~3pe.,l!uH·, IAJhd+: i.s '1:hr.1i·. r·edl.J.y ~;ay"i.ng? Is it saytng thE~Y do not knoto~J hOI.IJ to col.l.ro~cl·: U1Co~ t··.r'IXCo~:; or 1~1h E:!l'' P. to c.; o 11 e c t the t. c~ xes? What. d r (o~ HHo~ y s r'l y i. n g ? fl ('! c i'll I s Co~ "' l.l. Cr.Hli!ldiat·rs put taxes into the gcoHHo~r;~ l l:r(~d~>llry Or i:hC::! COLII'l l".ry.

That is IAJherC:~ th(->. funds come Frorn. r:F ·l·hey cortl.d so qu~ickl.y find $1 bjlJ.ion fen· ACOA -and we congr·a+.ul.d.ho~ HH~III :i.n SOJIHo~ r·ro~Sp(~C l~s for that program, and :in other r· e spec t s r~Jc'! r· r:?. g r (:~ t: ·U: ... sur·(:~ J. y ti'JE!Y could ftnd some monies for the farmers of this Province. H e g o e s o n to s w~ g e s -t-. .... i": h i. s "i. s the Pr·estdent of the Neu..Jfoundland and Labrador Federation of Agr:icuJ ture -he says: 11May we be so bold as to suggest to the politicians who govern us today that fund:i.ng be Found fr·orn l·.:h~~ 1~ax dolJ ar·s of Canada.

Any departure f r· o rn t hi s b a s i c t r u t 1·1 :i. s j u s i": obstacJ es cr'E!ated by government and i'l quco~!;t·i.on of ScoHIIdl'lLtc;. '' r"'lr. Spur'lker, V EH' y U p S e t . i:he Pro1J i nee l·hco~ pr·es "i.c!Pni: I~Jr:'IS rar·mer·s i·hroughout i'l r e fr·1.1 s h'cll:co~ c:l .

Th f:~ y ai"H sE~(,>J.ng both Jc,'vc,~J.s of go lJ c,~ r· nrn:~ n i: , Fe c:l (,H' a l.l. y <.Hll:l p r· o v :) n c:i a J 1 y , d r· a g g i. n g t he j r f e e t a n d t h r:! y •-~ r r,~ h 1.11" l: i. n g b e UliJ s (:~ i: h (:~ y do not have ~ source of funding to drdtAJ upon t:o irllproVE! t-.h~dr p o s i +· i o n i n t h :i. s s e c t o r of o u r ~~conomy. Mr. i·let~.ritl: IAH:!nt on, Mr·. Speab>.r, to say, "We have seen the agreement outlined with the proposed funding regime and our rea c t -Lon i. s .i n c 1 u d e d ·i. n 1: hi s letter.

An agreement without a capital assistance program to address basic development n~~eds IAJi.l.l do vHry 1-Lt-t.l.c-?. t.o fur·t.:hC:~r agricu1tura1 development in this Prov·ince. The $S million that you 1..29'1·6 Junr:~ 13, 198B Vo] XI. COiflllti.'i": nothing Sr'l':f Ul(:~ 1: () 1: hi. s short of ler'ls"l-.." r01greement ridicuJous, '1. c ... to So, ~1r. ~-)pt)r'lkl,H', IJ.If:~ on ·i .. his sJ.dc"' say that not a] 1 is IAJ(->.]] u..d th ·Uw o'll.:J r• i. C ul_ i: II r r'll. Sf:~ C ·1-·. 0 r· :i. n 0 1.1 T' comrnunity and in. our Pt"ov:inCE!.

T h e p r· e s :i. d r,~ n t , fl'i. rn s e 1 F , i. n l. (~ 1: hH' s written to the federal Minister of Agri.culi:rJr·:~, r'lr·. ltJ""iSf~, and the provincial minister, u..Jho is not so IJ.J"i.St~-. r'lt". Spe.:lk(;~r·, le'l:Lf'!T"'S l::o bo·l:.h these ministers show the co rnpo rHHll·: s UH,~ y I~Jr:Ul-1: ·incl. u cl e d in this agreement. Mr.

Speaker, when the minister is addressing th.i.s particular bill, perhaps it is a proper and a p p r· 0 p r· •i a t e p 1 d c (.~ r () r· h .i rn t () a l s 0 deal with some of the very i rn p o r· t a n t a n cl p 1,~ r· t :i. n c,~ n t q 1.1 e s t .i o n s which keep giving rise from the Sprung comrn:i.·t-.mr.:~nl: 1:ht~ Pr'ov·i.J'ICE~ has steeped itseJ.f 50 per cent into. Mr. Speaker, what kinds of q II P. ~; i: · i. 0 w; r'Ufl 1: t d l. k .i n g d b 0 Ll t: ? WelJ, questions like: What are l: h E! IJ.J(~ (,~ k l. y S r'l l_ P. S f t g 1.1 r ('! S f 0 r• t h E!

Newfoundland and Labrador market r or· s p r· 1.1 n g c 1 J c u rn b t'! r s ? A v r::! r· y pertinent question! What are the tota1 monthly costs ol-l:hC::! opc,~ri'li:"i.on of thr.~ grr.~(;!rlhOLISI::' per pod? That is a very sC::!rious quc,~!;L·i.on, Mr·. ~'JpE!dkHr, that. somebody has to ansu..Jer For· us in l. j_ g h 1:: of o 1.1 r d (~ m o n s l: r r.:t I" "i. n g i. n l: h i. s House that the government's F."i.nanc ·i.al. and other obl. igattons total some $22 miJ.lion when everything i.s put into perspective. I have questions J.ike: What levels are being pr·udu ct :i. on reached per pod in the greenhouse?

What percentage of production of cucumbers is being rejech~cl fur packag~i.ng dlld s~1~=!? No. 54 [~294-6

•J In 0 Uwr tAJor·ds I t~Jhat pc,~rCE:~n t:age or actual grown cucumbers are packaged, boxed, crated and shipped to the marketplace for human consumption? What percentage are for human c o n s u m p t i o n a n d 1~1 h a t: p c-:'! r· c CHl ti5l g e end up with animals, feed for pigs or other animals and livestock? What percentage end up in the Vi:lri.ous dumps around the Provine~~ l.o.Je have been hear·ing about? Mr. Sp~:!aker, ·l:hr::!SC:~ are vr'!Y'Y r'<:!dl and pertinent questions . What p c;! r· c c,, n 1-.i" g E:1 oF i·: he t:I~J(Hl t: y -i::tJ.JO million is ending up in the stalls of cat1:J.e?

Wlvtl: p(~r<:f-)1'1-i:r.tgc or t:hE:1 t.IAJE:1nty-·'tikJO m:iJJion arE! ~Hlding up on IJH:1 Rob i.n Hood dutnp? ~~ho:~ L per·cen ·t-C~gE:! :i.s E:!nding up in the s i··.omdcl·l!> or hi.tflk\rl bt:1 'i. ng~;. r'lr·. Sp8aker? These are pertinent q u e s t i. o n s c o n s i. d e r· ·i. n 9 "1: h e rn<-J.gn :itudc.;! of t·h1'=1 invE>.stment. that tm~ haVE:1 dernons'l:t·ated i.n i:h ·i !; HotJS(c1 and t.hat the government is on the hook for financially. riJr. Spr::1akl:1r. I~Jhd 1: VdlUE! at cos~ of marketable cucumbers has been du111pecl, month? g i. v en at~Ja y or sold 0.ach Thc-.lt is question .

Is Fnviroponics having paying its bills? MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : 0 r d <->. r· , p 1 e a s e ! a serious NetAJf ou nd l. and difficulty A po-L n 1-. of or· dE~ r·, t h t~ h on . ·1·. h r:! member for St . John's North . MR. FllRFY : A n o Ull:H' p <:d . n 1: o f o r cl n r· . MR. J. CI1RrFR: Mr·. ~:lpE:1i:li<E:1ln, th~~ ruembE:1r's assc,1r·t·i .on ·i,~; ~~wong . Tl ·w dttrnp· ."i.ng of cucurnbeJ"S on the dump had noi"·.lri .ng l:o do IAJ·i.th r"lr .

Spr·ung .. uH:I 1294-7 June 13, 1988 Vol XL hf:1 s hot .Jl.d chf:H:k hi.!) these are erroneous a :i. r c~~ d i. n '1-. h J s li o us C.;! the member should go fi!lCt.S. MR. SIMMONS : To that point of Speclb)r. MR. SPEAKER: Facts. Now, facts being and t t~i~k and check his order, Mr. The hon. the mE~rnber for Fortune lh~rm:i .b,lgl:1 to t:he::! po ·i.nt. of or·ciE!r' . fi.1R. SIMfi.10NS : I hc-.lue to say, Ml". SpE:~akeln. thE=! lfiP.trJbc:!r' For st ~ . John I!) Norl :h knOIAJS the di ffE:>r'ence. I-IE:1 w:.i 11 be at.uarP 1. h d 1: r~ t• . ~ p In I I n 9 h :i. 111 s c-:<1.

F h ad telephoned farmers to offer this r,1Xt~n~;:; ct .JCIItllbnr· cr·op. l·le hds personally made arr·angE!rnents to halJO 'i".hOSC:~ CI.ICI.lirlbc:H'S cJc-:!l.:i Vl:H'<'!d to the various dumps. So, why, Mr·. Speaker, i.s t:he hon. member misleading the House on this one? 1'-1 R . J . C A RTf R : To i::hdt po ·i.n i·: of order·, Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the member· for St . North. MR. J. CARTER : Mr· . John's M r . S p <-:'! ~l k C:'t' , I':I·H~ r· <7. F c,1 r· EHl c C'! t o 1:: h E! cucumbers found on the durnp wa s a r'1::1fr~rencf~ l:o lllar·k( :!t.ablE! cucu1nbc:•r·s found on the dump.

We all know l:: h (c't' e:1 i. s a c r.H' 1: i'l i. n i'ltn o u n t of wastage in any commercial opr~r·At: ·i.on dnd i.l :~; by pr·oduct :i.s food for cattle. Th<:'lt is not 1:hE! on r.;! r din t' ~-:1 F r,1 r·r· i. n g t-.o . Tho l'fl('!JIIbe:~ r suggesting that the otherwise mr:!r·chdn t· .• -~bl.r,~ Cl.tCII IIIbr,H'!; c·~ndc-~d up on the dump had nothing to do wjth riJr·. ~)pr'tHlg. Jlr '! ~; hr)lll,rl r.ht ~ck lri.s f<-lcts. MR. SPFAKFR: Orclc,H'. pl.l:1C1Se! No. S4- R294-7

Ther·e would 'i.s no poi.nl·: of or·dfH', bul-. T han. like to draw to the member's a l~h.-Hll:i.on l.ll!:~ ar(~ dt,~br'l. U ng 11An Act Respecting ' The N A 1'' f C)IJ n ell. r:'l n cl 1 n s l: ""i. -1:1 1 t·. o 0 f Agi"O]ogist.s,'' i~nd J th:lnk the hon. rnf~rnbc,~r -j s :; l:t'dyi.ng rr·orn HH:~ (.)c 1:. rh~,~ hon. UH~ lfll:~ Ill b f:H' r 0 r· MR. FUR:::y: r' ' .")I" •• f"li'lt'bP. W:i t h I" E! s p E~ c t I Ml". Speaker, .:~ g r· o Jog ·i. s i: !> cit:~ i'll c-:~nd ·t heAt. j s a d r.~ b '" ·i: r~ , '( o 1.1 I'' I.1J""i. -1: h i:-1 9 t' i. C I ill: I Jt' e uery wide-ranging l·lonour·, l '''Oiilcl suggest:.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, I have other questions tn ter·ms of l:h(:~ agricultural sector, and we are dealing with the h'i.gh-tech component of agrology and agri.culture right now. We i;trc,~ say·i.ng, Mr. Spf~dkt:H', "i.s NE!WfoundJ and Enviroponj cs having clj_fF-.i.r:ull:y pay·i.ng i.l:s bills? if.JE:~ seE'! the Cr·c-?.dj t Bureau reports r:orni.ng rHIL~ jiJs'f-. l<'lst rnon·i:h U~o~~: shOIAJ that: oncE:~ age:dn thE:~ company '"i. S b l:~ 'i. 1"1 9 S II(~ d by 1·. h l:~ p t' ·j \)if\ ·1: {:~ sector because their bilJs are not b.~,d. n 9 p r'\ ·i. d .

T s ·i. -1-. 11 n r· e"' s o 1v1 b l. ~,~ fot us to clsk, ClS a 50 per cent s ha J"("! ho l.d r:!t' I rH'l·~ IAIE! br,1·i.ng s 1.1 (:1d? T~; that lHli"E:~asonab] e? r do not thi.nk so, Mr. Speaker. r'lr. Spc:1al<l,~r I l.llhai: ,:~r(~ payablE:1 of Fnutropontcs? What accounts receivable +.: h E~ a c c o u n 1: s NetAJfoundJ and are i·.hp in this pr·oj (,~ct? how much How much are we owed and do we owe since we have gotten ourselves up to our neck tn this project? What accounts are outstan