Manitoba Hansard — 28 April 2003 (Sitting 17, 37th Legislature, 4th Session)

37-4-17

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LII No. 17 – 1:30 p.m., Monday, April 28, 2003

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY First Session–Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. VACANT Riel N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky, Hon. Inkster N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. Brandon East N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. Wolseley N.D.P. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P.

McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PENNER, Jim Steinbach P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia N.D.P. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Joy Fort Garry P.C.

SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

637 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, April 28, 2003 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS Mr. Speaker: I would like to advise the House that Friday's Hansard has not yet been received from the printer. As soon as it arrives, it will be distributed to all the members. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Provincial Road 304 Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): I wish to present the following petition. The back- ground of this petition is as follows: Provincial Road 304 is the main connector road between Provincial Trunk Highway No. 11 and Provincial Trunk Highway No. 59 for residents in Pine Falls, Powerview, St.

George, Great Falls, Manigotagan and Bissett who wish to travel in a southwesterly direction to Selkirk nd to Winnipeg. a Provincial Road 304 from Provincial Trunk Highway No. 11 is in a southwesterly direction, is travelled by approximately 1000 vehicles daily and shortens the travel time to Winnipeg y at least 30 minutes. b The 14 kilometres of Provincial Road 304 to the south of Provincial Trunk Highway No. 11 is in very poor condition, has no shoulders and winds among granite outcroppings and through swamps, creating very dangerous and very treacherous conditions for the travelling public.

At least six people have died needlessly in the last eight years on the 14 kilometre stretch of Provincial Road 304 south of Powerview. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Mani- oba as follows: t To request that the Minister of Transpor- tation and Government Services (Mr. Smith) consider rebuilding and reconstructing the 14 kilometres of Provincial Road 304 to the south of Provincial Trunk Highway No. 11 at the earliest opportunity. I request this on behalf of Dan Gelinas, Yves Normandin, Adrian Farmer and others. Mr.

Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House. * (13:35) Supported Living Program Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I wish to present the following petition and these are the reasons for this petition: The provincial government's Supported Living Program provides a range of supports to assist adults with a mental disability to live in the community in their residential option of choice, including a family home.

The provincial government's Community Living Division helps support adults living with a mental disability to live safely in the com- munity in the residential setting of their choice. Families with special-needs dependants make lifelong commitments to their care and well-being and many families choose to care for these individuals in their homes as long as cir- cumstances allow. The cost to support families who care for their special-needs dependants at home is far less than the cost of alternate care arrangements such as institutions or group and foster home situ- ations.

The value of the quality of life experienced by special-needs dependants raised at home in a loving family environment is immeasurable.

638 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2003 We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Mr. Caldwell) consider changes to the departmental policy that pays family members a reduced amount of money for room and board when they care for their special- needs dependants at home versus the amount paid to a non-parental care provider outside the family home.

To request that the Minister of Family Ser- vices and Housing consider examining on a case-by-case basis the merits of paying family members to care for special-needs dependants at home versus paying to institutionalize them. This is presented on behalf of Jared Weir, Shelley Mott, Darrel Kent and Linda McLean. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House. Highway 276 Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition.

The background of this petition is as follows: Grain farmers require a safe, dependable and efficient means by which to transport their grain to market. Grain elevators have been closed at McCreary, Ste. Rose and Makinak. Due to grain elevator closures, farmers north of Ste. Rose are required to use long-haul trucks to transport their grain to market. Load limits are in place on Highway 276 north of Ste. Rose, preventing grain farmers from using long-haul trucks to transport their grain on this highway, causing considerable additional cost. Farmers north of Ste.

Rose have no alternative route to hauling their grain on portions of Highway 276. So we petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr. Smith) to con- sider the reduction or elimination of load limits on Highway 276 north of Ste. Rose to permit grain farmers to haul their grain to market using long-haul trucks. To request the Minister of Transport and Government Services to consider upgrading Highway 276 to enable farmers to drive long- haul trucks and remain competitive.

I present it on behalf of Greg Zamrykut, Pam Honish, Neil Preston and others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Day of Mourning Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour and Immigration): I have a statement for the House, Mr. Speaker. Today, April 28, is the annual Day of Mourning for workers killed and injured on the job. We pause in remembrance of individuals who have died or been injured on the job over the past year.

The toll on working Manitobans and their families is all the more tragic because it is preventable. Today is also an opportunity to rededicate ourselves to preventing occupational injury and illness and to building a strong safety and health culture in Manitoba. The Manitoba government is committed to improving safety and health in our workplaces, along with the Workers Compensation Board, as well as employers, workers, educators and pre- vention organizations across the province.

Last year we updated The Workplace Safety and Health Act following the most extensive consultation on workplace safety and health in more than 25 years. This morning I announced the first of a number of education and public awareness initi- atives under the SAFE Manitoba banner. New safety and health educat ion resource materials have been developed for use by teachers and students. Because youth are among the most susceptible to workplace injury, they are a key target audience for prevention measures. By

April 28, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 639 working together we can put an end to these preventable tragedies at the workplace. I would like to ask all members to stand for a moment of silence in the Chamber today and honour people injured or killed at the workplace this past year. Thank you. * (13:40) Mr. Speaker: May I suggest to the honourable members, because we have a response to the minister's statement that we do the silence after we have the response, if that is okay with the House. [Agreed] Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Mr.

Speaker, I want to speak on behalf of our caucus, recognizing the day April 28 and just referring to the act itself. It states and I quote: That it is desirable that Canadians should designate a day of mourning to remember workers killed, dis- abled or injured in the workplace and workers afflicted with industrial disease. We on this side fully support the goal of making Manitoba's workplace and workplaces as safe as possible. Our caucus fully supports the consensus recommendations made to the Minis- ter of Labour by the Manitoba Workplace Safety and Health Review Committee.

These recom- mendations were agreed to by both Manitoba's employers and labour representatives and it represents the steps needed to achieve the goal of reducing workplace injuries by 25 percent. We on this side had some concerns in regard to the bill that was presented to the House in the premise that it did not reflect the entire consensus recommendations. The bill included a number of issues that were not recommended by the review committee at all. How the workplace safety and health is improved should be the major question. We stand with our colleagues today to mourn this day. Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I ask for leave to speak to the minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been granted. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, I join with the other MLAs assembled here today to acknowledge the importance of workplace safety, to mourn for those who have died and to just say that I think there has been some progress in the last several years in recognizing not only the immediate injury but the longer term injury from things like smoking and other toxins in the workplace.

The all-party committee is a step in taking the recommendations of the Workers Compensation Board further so that we can get smoke-free workplaces and decrease the extent of injury and death that may occur from this cause as well as other causes. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Would members please rise for a moment of silence in honour of the people injured or killed at the workplace this past year? A moment of silence was observed. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 14–The Improved Enforcement of Support Payments (Various Acts Amended) Act Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Minister responsible for the Status of Women (Ms. McGifford), that Bill 14, The Improved Enforcement of Support Payments (Various Acts Amended) Act; Loi visant à faciliter la perception des paiements alimentaires (modification de diverses dispositions légis- latives), be now read a first time. Motion presented. * (13:45) Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.

Speaker, this introduces several new enforcement measures for the collection of child support, including automatic and continuous paycheque deduction from pay- ors when there is a pattern of default and interest-like penalty, family compensation as a result of missed or late payments and cost recovery of collection action among other matters.

640 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2003 Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us from St. Maurice School 30 Grade 11 students under the direction of Mr. Shaun McCaffrey. This school is located in the constituency of the hon- ourable Member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Smith). Also in the public gallery we have from Shore Elementary School 20 Grade 5 students under the direction of Mrs. Pat LeClair.

This school is located in the constituency of the hon- ourable Member for Tuxedo (Mrs. Stefanson). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Taxation Impact on Employment Creation Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): A headline in last week's Winnipeg Free Press should be a wake-up call to the current Government but unfortunately it will probably fall on deaf ears. The headline read: Higher income taxes threat to future: economist.

In the article, an economics professor at the Asper School of Business says that for a province typically saddled with below-average economic growth and where only 100 net new jobs were created in the last year, the higher tax environment poses a real problem for the province's economic future. Why does the Premier fail to realize and understand that his high tax environment poses problems for Manitoba's economic future? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Certainly, today Stats Canada has come out with numbers indicating that in 2002 Manitoba was the best in the west in terms of economic growth. Mr.

McCallum has worked before for former Finance Minister Wilson of course and was involved in consumption taxes, the GST, Mr. Speaker. We have rejected the idea of the consumption tax increases. One would note that the so-called fair tax commission or the tax com- mission that was bequeathed to us by members opposite talked about increasing the sales tax to reduce the income tax. We have actually reduced the income tax by over 11 percent or 12 percent. [interjection] Our tax reductions were $220 million in four years; theirs were $120 million in 11 years.

The tax gap wa s created by members opposite and they only realized it in August of '99 when it was too late to act. Mr. Murray: The First Minister references Statistics Canada. It is interesting that he would reference Stats Canada b ecause that same report from Stats Canada indicated that the net job growth in Manitoba for last year was only 100, dead last in the country. That results in zero job growth really in terms of statistics.

Why, when an economics professor at the Asper School of Business says that slow job growth in the province is in relation to the unfavourable competitive tax economics that we have in Manitoba, does the Premier disagree with the University of Manitoba economics professor who says the fact that you only had 100 net jobs created because the symptom is anitoba has a high tax environment? M Mr. Doer: Mr Speaker, we have reduced taxes both on the property tax side, on the income tax side and on the corporate tax side. I was talking about Stats Canada growth numbers that were released just today.

Thirdly, our job growth numbers have averaged over 8000 a year since we have been in office. When you look, not month over month, but look at the whole result since we came into office, the average in the 1990s was 3000. The average is quite a bit greater than that now, more than double that ight now. r * (13:50) We admit we are not perfect. That is why this Budget builds bridges to young people to stay in the province with new co-operative com- munity college courses. It builds bridges with longer periods of interest rate relief. It builds bridges with the middle-income tax cut of another 6 percent, Mr.

Speaker, building up on the previous tax cut of about 10 percent for the same income bracket. That is why the en-

April 28, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 641 dangered species of the building crane is returning to Manitoba. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, the Statistics Canada numbers that we refer to, those Statistics Canada numbers showed from March 2002 to March 2003, not month by month, 12 months, one year, the growth under the Doer government, the net jobs was only 100. That is what Statistics Canada said. I do not understand why members on that side of the House do not see the relation. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Murray: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I do not understand why this Premier refuses to see the relation between a high tax environment like he has created for Manitoba, low job growth. Why does he not listen to professionals, experts like the University of Manitoba economics professor, who gives advice and says that high tax environ- ment is no way to create jobs? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, again we reject the economic vision that resulted in advice to the previous Mulroney government to introduce the GST. We reject that GST mentality.

Members opposite created a tax commission; they created a tax commission and the tax commission recommended that we increase the sales tax from 7 percent to 8 percent to reduce the income taxes. We have actually reduced the income taxes without raising the sales tax. I would remind the member opposite that he often takes out of context the various reports. Last week he was quoting from a nurses' report, Mr. Speaker.

I want to quote the full context of the report: The trend of casualizing the nursing profession in Manitoba began in the nineties when layoffs and cutbacks were occurring under the Conservative government. Over a thousand nurses were laid off. If you are going to quote the report, quote the whole report. Manitoba Hydro Rate Increase Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, this Premier (Mr. Doer) has put Manitoba Hydro in a position where they are going to spend half a billion dollars to live up to his expenditures. We know the rates will be increasing by 20 percent. [interjection] Oh, they say not true.

The Premier wants to quote reports. We have financial predictions from Hydro that say that rates will increase by 20 percent. What internally financed projects will Hydro have to defer? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister responsible for The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Speaker, when the previous government bought Centra Gas for $450 million, they did not bother to put that on the debt of Manitoba Hydro and report it clearly. That is where most of the increase comes from.

Hydro currently, as it has during the previous government's time and during the current Gov- ernment's time, used prudent and cautious pro- jections for its future rates. In the last four years, they have projected rate increases, and in each of the last four years, these rate increases have not been needed. That is why for four years there have been no rate increases. In fact, as the member would know, when there are no rate increases, then inflation makes power cheaper and cheaper and cheaper every year.

That has been the record of this Government, Hydro becoming more affordable, Hydro bringing companies to Manitoba to com- pete here, Hydro bringing new employment to Manitoba. Hydro is the engine of our growth which was the best in the West last year, Mr. Speaker. Public Utilities Board Review Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, if Hydro was the economic engine of this province and in many ways it is, they are putting sand in the oil of the crankcase of production, and Manitoba Hydro is going to be impeded by their financial policies. The debt of the utility will grow by $2 billion. M r.

Speaker: Order. * (13:55) Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on a point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I am reluctant to get up, but would you please remind the honourable member of our Beauchesne rules that a supplementary question

642 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2003 requires no

preamble. That is Citation 409. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, I would like to take this opportunity to remind all honourable members that Beauchesne Citation 409(2) advises that a supplementary question should not require a pream ble. I ask the honour- able member to please put your question. * * * Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, will this Minis- ter of Hydro live up to his commitment previ- ously to take Manitoba Hydro to the Public Utilities Board, as he said 15 months ago, or did something change? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Conser- vation): Mr.

Speaker, this may be somewhat strange for members opposite who allowed the Clean Environment Commission to fall into disuse, but we have not only commissioned a review that involves the Clean Environment Commission to give thorough scrutiny in terms of the environmental issues, we have provided a scope that will look not just at Hydro construc- tion but other areas including, particularly alter- nate energy and energy conservation. Indeed, we have included in this review the requirement that we look at the needs assessment as well.

That is consistent with the principles of sustainable economic development, that is consistent with proper scrutiny. We make no apologies for mak- ing sure there is full scope and full scrutiny of our activities in terms of Hydro. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, this is shameful disrespect to the Public Utilities Board. Public Poll Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, there is polling presently occurring in Manitoba asking about Hydro's image around environ- ment, around sales, around construction of dams. Is this Government now living to manage Hydro by polls? Hon.

Tim Sale (Minister responsible for The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Speaker, this is a government that believes in the future of Manitoba, that is not afraid of the future, that does not mothball projects that will benefit our future and keep our rates down, that is proud to work with First Nations people in partnership for the development of Wuskwatim if we are able to conclude an agreement with Ontario, with Conawapa. This is a government that under- stands new opportunities in wind, which I would presume as a rural opposition that the party opposite might welcome but instead they are afraid of the future.

They are the party that criti- cized Limestone. They are the party that moth- balls. We are the party that builds. Mr. Speaker: Order Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. The question was very clear: Who paid for the polling? Who was paying for the polling? Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Minister of Energy, Science and Technology, on the same point of order? Mr.

Sale: Mr. Speaker, that was not the question. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable official opposition, I would like to take this opportunity to remind all honourable ministers Beauchesne Citation 417 answers to questions should as brief as possible and should deal with the matter that is raised. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Energy, Science and Technology, have you con- cluded your comments? [interjection] Anybody have a question on this side? Justice System Government Initiatives

April 28, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 643 Mr. Gerald Hawran ik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, on April 1, Bob Morrison, president of the Manitoba Association of Crown Attorneys called the Justice Minister soft on crime and Manitobans agree because we have seen the headlines in the Winnipeg Free Press : On April 8, judge releases rape suspect on bail; on April 1, $10,000 pornography fine reduced to $3500; and in The Winnipeg Sun on April 2, violent rampage, 10 punks beat senior, assault cop. What is this justice system coming to? Why is this minister not doing anything about his soft on crime policies?

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to hear the interest from the member opposite in this area. I am pleased to announce and I hope for support from members of the Opposition for our Budget, for Budget 2003. When it comes to prosecutions, for example, since 1999, we have increased the investments in Prosecutions Division in the Department of Justice by 58 percent. * (14:00) I am also pleased to say, and I hope members opposite will support us, but since 1999 we have also increased support for provin- cial policing by 24 percent. Mr. Hawranik: Mr.

Speaker, this minister has had nearly four years to establish his own record on justice and he has failed. Why does this minister not back up his words with action? When we see headlines such as what was stated and what we have seen in March in The Winnipeg Sun such as: Charges for kiddie porn, on March 26; Man near death after beating by four youths, on March 15, what is this Justice Minister proposing to do? When will he finally take a tough stance against crime? Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.

Speaker, perhaps the members opposite will support the Budget, if not for our investment in prosecutions and policing, but also for our continued investment in the new Public Safety Branch Investigation Unit, which under The Safer Communities Act, has now shut down 20 drug, prostitution and sniff houses in the city of Winnipeg. Those are the kinds of innovations that we are dedicated to. Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, this minister is soft on crime. Why does this minister not take a tougher stance on crime?

When we see headlines in the Free Press in March such as: Killer gets sentenced three years in prison for slaying a 19- year-old man, is this what the minister calls justice? Is this justic e for the 19-year-old man who was slain or is this justice for his family? Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, the current administration has been bringing in many new and innovative initiatives to better protect the safety of Manitobans.

At the same time, it has gone back and recognized that over the last decade there has been a blind eye turned to the needs in areas like policing, like in prosecutions, and we have made very significant investments in that area. But, Mr. Speaker, Manitobans do not need to be reminded of the record of the last decade, for example, of a gang hotline that was not answered for up to five months at a time, of the highest violent crime rate ever recorded in a Canadian jurisdiction. That was in the years before we came into office.

What we are doing is putting in place strate- gies to make sure that the safety of Manitobans is going to be protected as much as we can. At the same time, I am very pleased to announce that last week the RCMP and Winnipeg Police have joined together now in an integrated unit to tackle the challenge of criminal organizations in this province. It is a welcome addition to our strategy to make a hostile environment for organized crime. Child Pornography Sentence Lengths Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, we recently saw another example of this Government's lenient attitude towards a most heinous crime, child molestation and child pornography, as in the case of Jon Amadatsu, a pedophile, where the minister's own officials recommended a sentence of only 18 to 24 months and the offender received 18 months. Mr. Speaker, why does this Minister of Justice feel that 18 months is enough for some- one possessing 700 computer images, including

644 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2003 one clip showing a child raping another child and one child can be heard crying out, stop, it hurts? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, it is the challenge of ensuring that the laws of this country better protect the safety of Canadian children. That is the reason that Manitoba led a national campaign, a successful one, to introduce a new law to criminalize Internet luring.

It is why this administration has been working in partnership with such organizations as Child Find Manitoba, a wonderful organization that is making a difference, to establish CyberTip.ca to report instances of child pornography and online predators. That is why this administration has put in place a Criminal Organization and High Risk Offender Unit. Just in the last two weeks, we put in place a Web site for better notification of those predators who would threaten the well- being of our children. We are moving on some very important initiatives in providing national leadership. Mrs. Driedger: Mr.

Speaker, why is this Minis- ter of Justice failing to protect children from these predators by not seeking real jail time, especially for someone like Jon Amadatsu who stalked an 11-year-old student, who sent her pictures of child pornography and asked her to end him pictures of her naked? s Where is the real jail time and where is the tough on crime that he supposedly talked about? Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I am glad to hear the members opposite are developing some interest in this area, because all Canadians have to take a stronger stand against crimes against children. That is why, Mr.

Speaker, we have to ensure that the Criminal Code provisions to protect children are made stronger. We are wanting to know where does the Opposition stand when it comes to strengthening the Criminal Code pro- visions with regard to child pornography, other crimes against children. I would like to hear the views of the member opposite when it comes to the need to raise the age of consent to sexual activity to better protect our children. I would like to hear from the mem- bers opposite, will they join us in the demand for a national sex offender registry that is indeed robust. Mr.

Speaker, these changes are necessary. We are doing what we can to encourage the federal government and demand the federal gov- ernment take real important steps forward. Mrs. Driedger: Why did the Justice Minister not stand up and denounce these crimes and deter others from committing them by ensuring real jail time? Why is someone who enjoys watching toddlers being raped given a slap on the wrist? Mr. Mackintosh: The members opposite know full well how positions are presented in the court system of Manitoba and the role of the judiciary and the role of the Criminal Code.

Members opposite also know and I recall circumstances, and the Minister responsible for the Status of Women (Ms. McGifford) will remember this, one time there was a john of a 14-year-old, I believe, that, as I recall, was given a $400 fine. Mr. Speaker, we have to ensure that there is a strong message to the federal government that the provisions in the code to protect children are enhanced, that there is a new message that those crimes have to be treated most seriously.

In terms of what we can do as a province, I am very pleased that we introduced the first child-friendly courtroom facility and waiting room in Winnipeg to ensure that children were not traumatized further by the justice system and indeed their evidence made stronger because they were not having to face the face of the perpetrator. Immunization Programs Funding Mrs. Bonnie Mitchels on (River East): Mr.

Speaker, in January of this year, the Minister of Health indicated that he wanted to cover vac- cinations for chicken pox, pneumococcus and meningitis for Manitoba children, if he received additional funding from the federal government. I wonder why, since this Minister of Health has received over $200 million in new money from the federal government, he did not make a

April 28, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 645 priority in this year's Budget funding for all children, regardless of economic circumstances, for these vaccines. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): The member should do some calculations with respect to the question of the funding from the federal government. We have now gone from the level of 14% federal government funding up to 16 percent. While we welcome that funding, there is much due. As I indicated at the time to the member who wrote me a letter on that, Mr.

Speaker, and as I indicated to delegates at the MMA con- vention, we have a strategy in terms of ensuring that we can provide coverage to the people of Manitoba. It will be rolled out over a period of time in order to meet the needs of all Mani- tobans. I want to add, Mr. Speaker, we have the most extensive vaccination program through our flu vaccination, and through our pneumococcal, which was never covered before in the history of the province of Manitoba. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, the minister did not have the courtesy to respond to my letter.

I would like to ask the Minister of Health, with the $3-billion health care budget and over $200 million of new money from the federal govern- ment this year, why is this minister denying chil- dren and families access to these vaccines ecause they cannot afford to pay. b * (14:10) Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, as members know, we have a very extensive vaccination program and child health program. In fact, we have the most extensive accessible health care program of any single province in the country. [interjection] If the member wants to hear the answer, I am happy to provide it. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Speaker, in my final supplementary for the Minister of Health: Why should lower-income families not have the same option to protect their children against these conditions as families who can afford to pay? Why the two-tiered system? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I no te last week when we announced our West Nile program, the member opposite opposed it, one of the most preventative programs in the history of the country. I know when we introduced our nursing program, that member stood in front of the Legislature and opposed our nursing program.

Any initiative that we have taken to include and to expand, including the expanded drugs this year, those members opposite opposed. We have a plan which we are rolling out to provide assistance to those families to do that, but where were members opposite when they wanted to privatize large portions of our health care system in which people would have had to pay for everything? What will happen if members oppo- site ever get their hands on the levers of power again? Health Care Budget Overspending Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, I want to start by complimenting the Minister of Health for his presentation to the Manitoba Medical Association on Saturday, his honesty when he said that ministers' comments are often banal and boring in laying out the Government's direction, when he said it was to continue the same processes we put in place the last three and a half years.

I ask the Minister of Health, who has received generous increments in budgeted fund- ing every year he has been in office, why it is that he overspent his budget by more than $50 million in 2000-2001, by more than $50 million in 2001-2002 and in the third quarter estimates that he will overspend his budget again by more than $50 million in 2002-2003. Can the minister explain to Manitobans why he thinks it accept- able to continue to do more of the same in over- spending by tens of millions of dollars each year?

Do we need to have balanced budget legislation which requires balanced budgets department by department to improve the minister's fiscal management? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): I am glad the member referenced my addressing the Manitoba Medical Association, and, for the edification of members of the House, I was quite overwhelmed by the fact that the incoming president of the Canadi an Medical Association had words of praise for this provincial govern-

646 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2003 ment and the course of action that this provincial government has undertaken. I personally think that is unprecedented in a long, long time. I just want to make two points to the member's comments. First, we steadily brought down the funding issues so that the overspending in the Department of Health is less than 2 percent of the overall budget of the Department of Health. Secondly, I might suggest, on almost every second occasion that the Member for River Heights stands up in this House, he gen- erally asks us to spend more money on more programs. Mr.

Speaker, those programs are important, and it is important for this Government and as this Government to provide the services to Mani- tobans and improve health care, which most Manitobans I think agree with, and to balance the Budget at the same time. We are going to continue to do that. Health Care System Tuberculosis Control Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Will the Minister of Health provide further explanation for his comments to the Manitoba Medical Asso- ciation on Saturday that there have been out- breaks of tuberculosis occurring in northern Manitoba recently and why it is that citizens actively infected with tuberculosis have some- times quite recently had to wait weeks living in crowded conditions with up to 20 people in a home before being put in isolation? Why is the Minister of Health not ad equately dealing with a critical infectious disease like tuberculosis here in Manitoba? Ukrainian spoken.

Why is the minister not being more accountable? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): When I addressed the MMA, Mr. Speaker, as the member indicated, I talked about issues that were problems and I talked about successes. When I made mention of the banal, I said that ministers often in the past would come and give banal statements that said nothing. I frankly out- lined some things that were failures and some things that were a success. Dealing with tuberculosis is a partnership, a partnership arrangement with the federal govern- ment, First Nations and the Province of Mani- toba. We work collaboratively.

It was a partner- ship when the member was a member of Parliament. It is a partnership with the federal members, and we are working with the Sanatori- um Board and with tuberculosis. When individu- al cases have a problem, we have put in ad- ditional resources and measures. At the same time, as I indicated last year in this House, we have put into place a review of the operations in order to improve it, and that process is in place. Mr. Gerrard: Of course in tuberculosis the Province has the lead role.

I would ask the min- ister to admit that there have indeed been some problems in the handling of tuberculosis and that this is a critical infectious disease that should be much better under control. We are living in a time when people are much more aware of infectious diseases because of problems like SARS and West Nile virus. So it really is critical that we get on top of tuber- culosis, which has been around for a long time.

W e n e e d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t i t i s b e i n g l o o k e d after properly, that people are being put in isola- tion promptly and that there is no problem with it being communicated to other people. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, two comments on that rather lengthy partial question: firstly, the major precursor and diffi culty with respect to tuberculosis is housing conditions, which have been in a poor state for decades. We have made significant steps to improve that in partnership with a government in Ottawa that for many, many years totally gave up its responsibility in this area.

Point 2 is that I do not think whether you talk about West Nile virus or SARS or any infectious disease that you will find another provincial government that has been as active and as out front on all of these fronts than the Province of Manitoba. We have and we will continue to be. Child Care System Funding Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, during the lean, mean Tory years of the 1990s,

April 28, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 647 the Filmon government cut child care funding by $10 million. By contrast, our Government has increased child care funding in every budget. Can the Minister of Family Services tell the House how our newest investment in child care will improve the access to affordable, quality child care for Manitoba families? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Family Ser- vices and Housing): Mr.

Speaker, after a little more than a week in the House, I am happy to have a question addressed to myself on the issue of child care, because it is something that the Doer government believes very strongly in sup- porting. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. * (14:20) Mr. Caldwell: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Member for Turtle Mounta i n ( M r . T w e e

d) s a y : do not be concerned about this sort of child care, but I can tell you that since 1999 there has been a 41% increase in child care support in this province. This means more child care spaces and decreased waiting lists, more funding for chil- dren with disabilities, and improved wages for child care workers. Our commitment to ongoing stable funding demonstrates the Doer govern- ment's commitment to the important role that child care plays in our community and the im- portant role that early childhood educators play in our communities.

Our record stands against members opposite who cut $10 million out of child care in the nineties. Cardiac Surgery Program Review Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, after admitting that nine people died while waiting for heart surgery, this Minister of Health made one of the most cold-hearted statements one could imagine.

I quote from the Winnipeg Free Press of March 8 when he indicated: "I'm not going to fool around with this anymore." On top of that, this minister on the weekend has coldly told families and loved ones of SARS vic- tims that their deaths were, again I quote: "A blessing in disguise because we are now better prepared to deal with a SARS outbreak." I would ask this minister to explain to the loved ones of cardiac care and SARS victims and to all Mani- tobans why people have to die before he is willing to act. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I can think of several Latin phrases I would like to apply, but suffice to say, firstly, thank heaven that to this point there have been no SARS cases in Manitoba. Secondly, in my address that I did to the Manitoba Medical Association to medical doc- tors, and I noticed the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard), and I thank him, was in attend- ance at that conference to discuss these issues, I indicated, and the point was that we have been planning as a nation to deal with a pandemic. In terms of SARS, Mr. Speaker, it is a tragedy and it is an emergency.

There are hun- dreds of people infected in this country, but if we were in a pandemic, we would be talking about thousands of people infected, thousands. It behooves us, as a nation, to take this experience and apply it to our planning for a pandemic that is in the works in order to ensure that we do not put ourselves in danger or in a situation where we are overwhelming the system. I stand by that statement. I have made it at federal-provincial meetings and it has been agreed to by most fed- eral predictors in the country. Immunization Programs Funding Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr.

Speaker, on a new question. Mr. Speaker: Honourable Member for Fort Whyte, on a new question. Mr. Loewen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is unfortunate that this Minister of Health is so flippant in his comments both to the victims of his cardiac-care crisis and to the loved ones of the families of SARS. I would hope that this minister would take the issue of the Canadian Pediatric Society's recommendation on the vaccines for children a little more seriously. I would ask this minister: Is

648 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2003 he also going to wait until there is a report of a baby's death because their parents could not afford to provide a vaccine? Is he going to wait for one of those reports before he acts on the recommendations, before he uses the over $200 million he has from the federal government? Is he going to use some of that money before a baby's death to provide these vaccines? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, every time there is a death in the health care system, whether it is someone in mental health–[interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Chomiak: –whether it is a mental health patient who commits suicide, whether it is a patient who could not get a transplant, whether it is a patient who is on a waiting list and could not get the service, it is a tragedy to the entire system. The entire system, all of us, collectively take responsibility. Mr. Speaker, the member opposite said, as I was speaking, ship 'em to the States. I am glad the member mentioned that. When we came into office and the waiting lists for cancer patients were beyond the rate, one of the first things we did is we did put people to the States, and you know what happened?

We saved lives. We have cut the waiting list for ca ncer care in half, 50 percent as a result of our actions. We work every single day, when an issue raises, when there is a problem, we try to improve it, and that has been shown by reducing the cancer waiting list by 50 percent. I am glad the member raised that issue. Mr. Loewen: On a new question, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Whyte, on a new question. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, I am simply asking this minister to start taking responsibility for his own inaction.

As we have seen with the cardiac- care crisis, he should not have been fooling around with the system. He should have been fixing it. I would ask this minister to take a very serious look at the vaccines that have been recommended by the Canadian Pediatric Soci- ety. I would ask him to provide those vaccines to those families in this province that cannot afford to provide that for their babies without his assistance, and I would ask him to implement that policy today. Will you do it today? Mr. Chomiak: As I indicated, we are in the process of doing that. Secondly, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to indicate, when it came to our attention that there were problems with respect to the cardiac pro- gram, let me outline what we did. We brought in an outside reviewer, a world-respected indi- vidual. We expanded the number of surgeries. We offered, even though we had offered it two years earlier, to send people out of province. We brought in surgeons from out of province. Mr. Speaker, it is ironic that the wait list that we have right now, and even at that time, was shorter for heart surger y than when members opposite operated during the 11 dark ages of ory government.

T Our modus operandi is when there is a problem we work on it, and we work on it with care providers. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the minister again if the solutions were that straight- forward, if they were that easy to implement, why did this minister wait for nine people to die before he acted? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated in my comments in the House last week, we learned. That is the job and role of a Health Department, learn from mistakes.

When 12 babies died at the Health Sciences Centre and nothing happened for one baby death, two baby deaths, three baby deaths, four baby deaths, five, and twelve deaths, the largest inquest in the history of Canada took place and that was the Sinclair inquiry. We are following the recom- mendations of the Sinclair inquiry. What frustrates me is the recommendations, such as a health handbook that was made by the Thomas commission has been rejected by mem- bers opposite. Information on that list about a central waiting list that we were to put in place that had been recommended, we put in place.

I suppose members opposite reject that too. When there are mistakes in the system and you advise them and you try to improve the

April 28, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 649 situation, we put that in place; they reject it. When they talked about training more nurses, we are doing it; they rejected it. We are following Sinclair and Thomas. We are working to improve the system. None of their rhetoric and their inaction changes that. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has xpired. e MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Rosemary Brown Ms. Nancy Allan (St. Vital): I am honoured to rise today to recognize the life of Rosemary Brown, an important woman in Canadian poli- tics who passed away this weekend of a heart attack. Ms.

Brown was the first black woman to be elected to political office in Canada. She served as an NDP MLA in the British Columbia Legis- lature in the 1970s and 1980s. Ms. Brown was devoted to social justice and dedicated much of her time in office and in other positions to pro- moting this cause. As an MLA, she created a committee to eliminate sexism in textbooks and educational curricula. Also, she worked to intro- duce legislation to prohibit discrimination on the basis of sex or marital status. These initiatives helped lead to more woman representation on boards, directorates and commissions.

Rosemary Brown ran for the leadership of the federal New Democratic Party in 1975, but lost on the fourth ballot to Ed Broadbent. In addition to running for the leadership, she was the mother of three children. Ms. Brown was born in Jamaica and originally came to Canada to study at McGill University where she ob- tained a Bachelor of Arts degree in 1955. She went on to the University of British Columbia where she obtained a Bachelor of Social Work degree in 1962 and then a master's degree in 965. 1 Mr. Speaker, when Ms .

Brown left office in 1986 she became a professor of women's studies at Simon Fraser University. She also held the position of chief commissioner of the Ontario Human Rights Commission. Ms. Brown's tire- less work in Canada was recognized in 1996 when she received the Order of Canada. Rose- mary Brown was an exceptional woman who accomplished much during her lifetime and who will not be forgotten. This country will not be the same without her. Farm Family of the Year Mr.

Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): I rise today to congratulate Ron and Wanda Jefferies and family of Glenbo ro who were recently named the 2003 Farm Family of the Year by the Red River Exhibition Association. * (14:30) Mr. Speaker, the award is designed to pro- mote the importance of agriculture and agribusi- ness by highlighting farm families in the prov- ince who are at the industry's foundation. The Jefferies family will receive the award on June 22 at the Red River Exhibition. The Jefferies live on a century farm west of Glenboro, running a diversified commercial beef and grain oilseed operation.

They also run Jefferies Seeds, a year round operation in its own right. Sons Cale and Riley share the family's interest in farming, as they are both involved in the 4-H Beef Club. In addition to their dedication to their farm operation, the Jefferies family are devoted very much to their community. Ron has served nine years on the Westoba Cr edit Union board and also as treasurer of the Glenboro Minor Sports Association, while Wanda is currently its presi- dent. Ron is also serving his second year on the Manitoba Seed Growers board.

He represented Manitoba at the national seed growers con- vention in British Columbia last year. The Jefferies were nominated for this presti- gious award by Glenboro's agricultural commit- tee, a subcommittee of the Glenboro Community Development Corporation. I would like to cong ratulate the Jefferies family for their considerable dedication to our agricultural sector. They are most deserving recipients of this award. Rural Community Improvement Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin-Roblin): Mr. Speaker, I think it is important here in the Legis- lature every now and then to talk about the good

650 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2003 work being done at the local level by people who work very hard to improve the quality of life in heir local communities. t A very good example is the town of Roblin, the municipalities of Hillsburg and Shell River, who have come together, I think, to create a beautiful spot in their community having to do with three different projects: East Goose Lake, which is one of the top 10 fly-fishing destina- tions in all of North America; West Goose Lake, which our Government was very proud to help and sponsor through the Sustainable Develop- ment Innovations Fund to provide an aeration unit that helps trout winter throughout the course of our long seasons and allows many fly-fisher- men to come and partake in an excellent fishery.

Most recently, we in this Government helped this group through the Community Places fund in helping them build the Crocus Trail, which is part of the national cross-Canada trail. The Crocus Trail runs in the south end of Roblin and circles West Goose Lake and then proceeds up towards San Clara and on into Saskatchewan. The local people worked very hard on this.

Congratulations need to be extended to the municipal leaders in the town of Roblin, the R.M. of Shell River and the R.M. of Hillsburg and the recreation commission in the area, along with the dozens of volunteers who have worked on these projects tirelessly for a number of years. I would like to join with all members here in congratulating these people for the work that they have done in their local community. Loreena McKennitt Mr.

Peter Dyck (Pembina): On April 26, I had the pleasure of joining hundreds of people at the Morden Recreation Centre for a gala evening in celebration of the career and success of Loreena McKennitt. I also had the opportunity to address the crowd and Loreena at this event. I shared my memories of the introduction of the band program in Morden. I was the band teacher at that time. I can clearly remember one particular student in red pigtails diligently learning to play the flute.

Would you not know, last October there was that same student on the Legislative Building grounds performing for the Queen, only now she had broadened the range of musi- cal instruments she had mastered to include the harp and the piano, this in addition to being a gifted vocalist and world-renowned composer. Thanks in large part to our dedicated home- grown talent and loyal supporters of the local music industry, Manitoba is currently bidding to host the 2005 Juno awards. I know that to have the chance to see and hear the country's top musical artists would be a great opportunity for anitobans. M Mr.

Speaker, Loreena' s previous two Juno award wins and eight nominations have gener- ated much positive publicity for Loreena and for her community. Finding herself recognized as being amongst Canada's highest calibre of musi- cians was no doubt a shot in the arm for Loreena's already successful career. Mr. Speaker, I am sure I speak for everyone from the Morden area when I say that we are proud of Loreena McKennitt.

Not only are we proud of the awards sh e has won, the charity work she does and the number of albums she has sold, we are proud of the way she represents her community in Manitoba throughout Canada and nternationally. i I offer my heartfelt congratulations for all she has accomplished and I wish her continued success. Silver Heights School Concerts Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): I am honoured to rise today to speak of an evening of music I enjoyed last week at Silver Heights School. The Collège Silver Heights family of schools in St.

James held two family concerts, last Wednesday and Thursday, celebrating their students' musical talents. These performances featured a wide variety of musical styles from different schools in the area. Mr. Speaker, Wednesday evening, students from the French Immersion schools of Assini- boine, Bannatyne, Robert Browning, Golden Gate and Collège Silver Heights performed many French songs and tunes. This concert was a full house of parents and friends.

April 28, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 651 I had the pleasure of attending the event the next evening when students from Athlone, Heritage, Golden Gate, Bruce, Sturgeon Creek Collegiate and Collège Silver Heights presented a wide range of musical selections. I enjoyed everything from a flute quartet playing "La Bamba" to the Bruce concert choir singing a Korean folk song. Mr. Speaker, such events as this one help to foster a greater sense of community by bringing together students, parents and teachers from different schools so they can meet and experi- ence new music together.

I believe that music is an integral part of life and especially of a young person's education. I know that my own daugh- ter's education was tremendously enhanced by a great music program in St. James. This is why I am so pleased to see th at schools in St. James- Assiniboia go to such great lengths to promote music as part of a child's education. I am per- sonally always happy to support any of the musical programs in the schools because of the valuable contribution they make to the develop- ment of the child. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to recognize all of the people who contributed to the family concerts. I congratulate the principal of Silver Heights, Len Harris, for hosting the two musical evenings, as well as vice-principals of Golden Gate and Silver Heights, Elizabeth Matyi and Ron Pelletier respectively, and music teachers and directors: Marcelline Moody, Rachelle LaFlèche, Alice Russell, Annette Marcoux, Heather MacLachlan, Lionel DeRuyver, Avonlea Armstrong, Ms. Daryl Crisp, Judy Gislason, Barry Melville and Vic Hooper.

Of course, I would like to congratulate the talented pool of students, accompanists and all those who participated. Without all of these im- portant people these two musical events would ot have been possible. n Mr. Speaker, I will close by saying that the Silver Heights family schools put on two won- derful performances and they should be com- ended for doing such a great job. m ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS ADJOURNED DEBATE (Fifth Day of Debate) Mr. Speaker: Resume debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr.

Selinger) that this House approve in general the budgetary policy of the Government, and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr. Murray) in amendment thereto, and the debate remains open. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I am very pleased to speak today on a Budget that is actually an extremely good budget, I am sure a very popular budget, certainly a budget that even the members opposite have been unable to find a lot wrong with. Before I begin, Mr.

Speaker, I did want to extend my best wishes to the members of the House who have announced that they are not running in the next election, who will not be in the House next time around, on our side of the House, Becky and Jean, Marianne and Linda. The members that I just mentioned are being let off for good behaviour and I really wish them very, very well in their retirement. I am sure that they will be coming back in another forum in the future. They are all young. They have a great future ahead of them.

To the members on the opposite side, to Frank, Jim, Harold and Harry, I want to say that we are letting them off with time served. I know they too will enjoy their retirement and I am sure we will be seeing them in the future. I sure hope they have had a good time while they have been here. Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair * (14:40) I know Harry has been here for, the Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns), has been here for yes, almost a lifetime. As a matter of fact, with his passing from the Chamber here, I believe the dean of the House will now be the Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton).

So there is a huge gap there between 1966 and 1981. That is a huge spread. I wanted to say at the outset that we have listened with interest to the various concession

652 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2003 speeches from the members opposite, and I think that is the best way I can describe them. The Member for Lakeside, once again, summed it up very well in his speech on Friday. I think he did have the correct analysis as to why things appear to be the way they are. Maybe it is just his experience and longevity in the House and in this world that have caused him to understand that better than some of his colleagues. I think he is largely correct in the analysis, but he says that we stole their policies and that is why we are successful.

I wanted to remind him that we did not steal their policies. Well, maybe we did. But they stole them from Roy Romanow in Saskat- chewan. [interjection] That is right. Before that the Member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg) said Tommy Douglas in Saskatchewan ran balanced budgets. So you know it is not their idea for us to steal. The fact of the matter is that it was a very good decision of the Romanow government finally after many many years to balance the budget. One would think if you listen to Conser- vatives that somehow this idea would have come from some other Tory fi efdom like Alberta.

But in fact no, it came from Saskatchewan. In fact, when you look at it, it is just a common-sense position. The public are not prepared to accept governments that live beyond their means any- more. We got away with it through the 1970s, through the Trudeau seventies and then through the Mulroney eighties, and the Tories were no better at it than the Liberals before them. They talked a good line. They sang a good tune. But at the end of the day, the results were just as bad under the Tories as they were under the Liberals. The NDP never had the chance federally, so we do not know what they would have done.

Given the times, it is probably fair to say that they would have simply done the same thing that the Tories and Liberals did. So I say that it is just common sense that you should be balancing your books. You do it at home. If you do not do t at home, you will not be solvent for very long. i I want to say that the Tories are actually in a real conundrum here be cause they find them- selves four years down the road could have been pretty shocked if they lost the election in the first place, trying to get over that idea.

As one was overheard Monday saying that a lot of the Tory ministers were having a very difficult time because they came here, the day they got here some of them became ministers. They never made their own phone calls. They had real trouble figuring out how to even use phones, make their own phone calls after they were out of office. Matter of fact, this person told me that in fact they actually still think they are ministers, just they do not have the offices. They did not have the offices or the cars, but in their own minds they were still ministers. But just when they gave orders, nobody was listening to them.

So the fact of the matter is that they are shocked that they lost the election in the first place. But, to make matters worse, they thought that somehow the current Government would act like previous governments, running big deficits and getting into lots of trouble with the elec- torate. So it must be an absolute shock to the Tories over there to find that after four years the NDP government has done none of the things they thought they would do in terms of over- spending and running deficits and getting into trouble with the voters.

Now they see themselves facing not even just an improvement in their position, because if you look at the record of elections for the last 30, 40 years, you see that after a government form s the government, first gets elected, the second election there is always a contraction. There is always a reduction in the number of seats and in the popularity they have. You know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is very amazing because this time could be different. This could be an absolute first where a gov- ernment wins an election and four years later continues to pulverize the Opposition and drive them right out of the building.

So the fact of the matter is it is no surprise to us that the members are a little down. They are looking a little tired. They are looking a little haggard. They are in a big mess, and I do not think they have a whole lot of time left, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to sort out these problems. I do not know whether the Me mber for Russell (Mr. Derkach) would like his name added on to the list of people retiring here, but, you know, it is not too late. It is not too late. I have time; I have room here to add him in and wish him well. He

April 28, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 653 tells me he has been nominated again, though, so he is kind of obligated to stay on there and fight the good fight. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want to talk about another very important fiscal initiative that the Government took that even the Conservatives would admit is a very, very important decision to make, and that was dealing with the liabilities of the civil service. You know, through successive Conservative and NDP governments over the years, this unfunded liability has been permitted to grow and grow and grow.

Sooner or later, we were going to have to deal with this issue. If it was not us, it would be them in the future. So it is to our credit, to the Government's credit, the Finance Minister's (Mr. Selinger) credit that we have come to grips with that, rather than just doing what is easy, shovelling it off and let the next guy worry about it. We have been dealing with it now for the last couple of years, taking into account the increasing liability to the extent that now, when new civil servants are hired, the department that hires them must make provisions for them in their hiring. So it is just part of the Budget.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, this was a very impor- tant–you know, it is not a sexy topic, not vote- grabbing, vote-getting. It is not like building a new hospital or a new school. I guess we are doing a lot of those these days. It is not like doing something like that. It is taking care of fiscal responsibilities, and it shows that the Government is on the right track on that side. As far as health care spending is concerned, the Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) alluded to that, the fact that the Government has spent half a billion dollars more in health care.

Of course, it is no surprise that while the previous Tory gov- ernment was talking about balancing the books and was, in fact, doing that, they, in fact, had huge health care spending increases. A lot of them, by the way, were not even in the Budget. They did not even have them in the budgetary process, but they were spending like crazy in their last few years. But that is what they did. They just spent before the election. Get over the hump; get over the next election and then boom. Remember the big plans they had to build all these buildings?

They were going to build all these hospitals and they won the election, when was it?–1995. Boom, they shelved them all, shelved all the buildings until later on. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am sorry, but I forgot the Member for Gimli, my good friend, Mr. Helwer, Ed, is also retiring, and I would cer- tainly be remiss if I did not mention all the great times that he and I have had. Some of them I do not want to talk about because they involve being in Australia in February and the member insisting that he would like to send a picture of him and me at a banquet back to the local Gimli Spectator.

I thought better of it after a while. * (14:50) Mind you, I cannot drink any wine anymore, so I was very clear in my thoughts and I thought it might be a wise idea to send that picture, e- mail it off to the Tory caucus and let them see what a great time that we were having at this conference in Australia. So I know it did not make it to the Spectator, and I do not know whether it made it to the caucus either, but you might show them that. Anyway, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I wanted to point out that the public actually likes vision in a government. They like to know.

They do not want to follow the Government's every step every day. They just want to be confident that the Government is being run properly, that the leadership knows where they are going, what they are doing. They may not always agree with where they are going, a nd maybe the leadership does not know where they are going some of the time, but it is the confidence question. The public has to believe that they do know where they are going. I think that is what the public believes about this Go vernment.

They have a confidence that they can go to sleep at night and wake up and know that the Government is not going to be in the ditch somewhere, that it is going to be running along at a good pace and doing the right things. With that in mind, the current Government has a number of building programs, and people like building programs, so we are building a hydro dam. Through the 11, 12 years, 11 years of Tory government, there was no construction really of any kind in this province, but the NDP now are going to build a hydro dam. When you

654 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2003 look at it historically, it has been the NDP that has built pretty well all of the dams. You know, when Sterling Lyon was in power, the architects and engineers told me–and I was one of the fundraisers for the NDP in opposition, and we used to get this over and over again. I mean, they would say, well, we are not NDP supporters. We do not really like you guys that much, but we are scared of those Conservatives. We elect them and the place just shuts down. That is what hap- pened under Sterling Lyon.

They elected, they supported, they donated to Howard Pawley to get him elected, so that he would, in fact, start constructing dams and other activities. So the NDP historically, since Schreyer's day, have been a building type of government. Now, let us deal with arenas. You know, here you have a former Tory government that just before election time tries to cobble together a big deal to save the Jets and build a new arena. The current Member fo r Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen) was spearheading a big arena challenge at the time.

I mean, he is the most irritated of the bunch over there when it comes to that arena because that just reminds him of his own fail- ures, right? He was expecting that there would be statues and busts of him at the front of his arena. Instead, they are going to be Chipman, and that really rankles him.

I do not see him at the moment because I am not looking over there, but I know that that is a very sore point with him, that the NDP would be able to put together an arena proposal, get the job done, when these great Tory thinkers and builders and business types could not get the shovel in the ground, and we are doing that. In addition, what sort of economic activity did you ever see in downtown Winnipeg during the Tory years? As the years went by, the down- town was just more run-down, and nothing was going on there for 11 years. I mean, you can say, well, maybe the economy is better.

Well, no, the economy was pretty good under their years too. You can say, well, maybe one project or some- thing, maybe that is beginner's luck, but we are talking here 42 projects. That is a lot of con- struction. That is a lot of building cranes. In fact, you could probably find whooping cranes down- town a lot more easier in those last 11 years than you would a building crane. I do not remember seeing any in town here. An Honourable Member: I do not remember any. Mr. Maloway: That is right. Now, the big clincher in our building project is going to be the floodway.

This has got to depress him more than anything else because this is going to be, Mr. Deputy Speaker, a $660- million project with $80 million flowing this year alone, and it is going to give us that 700- year flood protection ratings. This is a huge project. [interjection] The Member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) says: Huge amount of jobs. We are talking about a huge amount of money, a huge amount of jobs here and an asset that is going to save this city, this province, enormous amounts of money over the long haul because, eventu ally, there is going to be a flood.

There is going to be a flood maybe even bigger than the 700- year too at some point, but I do not think any of us will be around to worry about that one. Where was the initiative on the part of the Tory government to do stuff like this? They have nobody to blame than themselves. We could have presented a credible alternative in an elec- tion situation next time by doing probably noth- ing more than just balancing the Budget and building a couple of buildings. We are delivering the mother lode here. We are talking about an arena, we are talkin g about the floodway– [interjection] 42 projects.

The Member for Portag e la Prairie (Mr. Faurschou) says it is government money. Just what does he expect? What are you going to have, private guys build the floodway and then they will charge people to use it when there is a flood? That would be his type of economic activity, that you would go and get somebody to build a floodway on spec, and then they would hold everybody to ransom and threaten to flood them if they did not pay up when the flood came. I think that these members have a very bleak future at this point, and I know that there is light at the end of the tunnel, so I will get to that in a few minutes.

There has got to be some light here somewhere, but we just have to kind of flesh out the whole argument here first.

April 28, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 655 The natural governing party, that Tory party that pulled in such Liberals as the Member for– An Honourable Member: Riel. Mr. Maloway: No, no. The Member for Fort Whyte. There was a feeling in 1999 that after the Pan Am Games they would keep on for another term, but here they are stuck in the– [inter- jection] Ran out of gas actually on the political highway, just sitting there. As a matter of fact, the tires are disappearing.

One of their stars is gone, down to Ottawa, actually just waiting to see what happens out of this, and he will be making his way back here to save these guys. That party has got no money. I mean, what is wrong with this party? They are out of money. They are complaining that their ideas have been stolen. Let us see now: no money, no ideas, no candidates. Their good candidates are leaving, and so they have a caretak er leader. I think they know it. Of course, they have that Member for Fort Whyte there, waiting in the wings, wanting to take over as well.

He has tried almost every critic portfolio there is and he is not showing a lot of success in those. There are not too many left that he can try out. Mr. Deputy Speaker, [interjection] to the Member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Faurschou), a news flash here: it is not over; you guys still can pull this off. There is still hope out there. That is why we are going to have an election. [interjection] We do not know when the election will be. I am a bit of a hawk, so I have been wanting to have it now for quite some time. I am sure it will not be too many more sleeps before you will have your wish.

I know there are a few members opposite have said, call an election a few months ago. I do not hear them. They are pretty quiet right now, matter of fact I had heard a couple of comments in a company's concession speeches here last week, saying, well, you know, maybe you should wait for four and a half years. * (15:00) Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would say that you can talk about some of your new policies. I know you have some, private health care, that was one of the new ones, right? I invite you into Elmwood and we can discuss private health care. You are welcome to come in there.

Well, I remember the Tories in their old incarnations, Clayton Manness, actually, I just saw him last week–telling me back in 1988, actually '86, he said they were going to beat me, but 1988 he had a good candidate, he had my old campaign manager, Frank Sims. They recruited Frank. Then the next time they did a redistribution, they had Vic Toews running. Then they figured they were going to get me that time, right? So after that, things have just gone from bad to worse for these guys, because now I have to go out and find my own candidate. They will not even get me a candidate.

You know, you have these policies that you are going to have a lot of trouble with. Anyway, your job now is to stop the bleed where it is and try to rebuild for the futu re. I am sure you have one. The only thing that could derail you is the member, the honourable Liberal leader, right? He shows some fits and starts every once in a while. He might get going one of these days, but if I were a betting person, I know that I am not supposed to be betting on these things, I guess, but I would have to say that probably the Tory Party is well positioned to be back some day.

Now I want to talk about taxes and get back into the Budget here and deal with some of those statements the members have been making about competitiveness. That is the big buzzword that the leader was referring to last week. What the leader has to recognize is that we have to be competitive. All provinces have to be competi- tive if they are going to stay in the marketplace. So, when a business is going to locate, they do not just look at what is the corporate tax rate, they look at a whole bunch of other things. They look at will they have a labour force there.

If you are looking at potash, you are not going to set up a potash mine in northern Ontario where there is not any potash. To start with, you have to have the product that the company wants to mine or buy or manufacturer to begin with. What you have is the Conservatives picking on one little item, income taxes, for example. They knock that one around, but the reality is that the companies look at the whole package. They hire a consultant, the consultant looks at Manitoba and says, all right, these are the advantages and disadvantages. They look at the

656 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2003 whole package. They do no t look at one isolated example. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want to get to the Manitoba Advantage, because this is really interesting. All the years that the Filmon Tories ruled the roost here, they would talk about the Manitoba Advantage. They would say taxes are only one component.

You have to look at the income tax, you have to look at the retail sales tax, you have to look at gasoline taxes, health care premiums, mortgage costs, child care, auto insurance, telephone service–whoops, that may be a bad one there–electricity, heating and property taxes. You have to look at the whole balance. When you go to Alberta you have to pay medicare premiums. You do not do that here in Manitoba. So you have to look at the whole picture.

If you were in Toronto and you decided to move to Winnipeg, you could sell that Toronto house–and I can give you the average prices here if you want, but I think we are almost out of time–you can buy a better house in Winnipeg. You can have a cottage thrown in at the Whiteshell. Right? You can have cleaner air, a shorter drive to work, a better quality of life, cheaper hydro, cheaper insurance, cheaper cost of living. What these guys are saying is, on top of that, we should give them the lowest taxes as well. It is not necessary, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to be the lowest on everything. It is not.

The way these members talk, they would see Manitoba, basically, not being competitive anymore, because, if you reduced your taxes to the lowest common denominator, sales tax to Alberta, and the income tax to the lowest-taxed province, if you did that all the way around, where would you have the money to provide the services that these companies need to move here in the first place? You would not have services. You would not have the water and sewer services. You would not have the roads, the health care services, you would not have all of these things that the taxes are used to pay for in the first place.

So, I mean, these Tories have to argue about something. I recognize that. They have kind of been pushed into the margins. They do not have a lot, other than privatized health care, to deal with in the first place. So I recognize it is very painful sitting over there in those opposition benches and watching your numbers shrink and shrink and shrink. The whole tax reduction issue that they are using–and I would not be surprised if they do not run a big part of their campaign on that issue, that people are overtaxed. I guess they could get some people to believe that.

I do not think there is anybody that believes that their taxes are low enough. I think if you talk to everyone, sooner or later, you will find them thinking that their taxes are too high. So it is probably a good issue for them to use. But certainly we will be there to talk about the Manitoba advantage, and I wanted to say that in the Budget books that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) gave, well, this is basically a bedtime story for Tories. I think each of these members read this during the Filmon years, so there is no reason why they should not be reading the same book in our years.

This book talks about all the different advantages that Manitoba has over other prov- inces and why we are in a position where our unemployment is among the lowest, if not the lowest in the country, why we have got the strongest private capital investment in the country, and why all of these factors point to Manitoba being a very, very good place to invest, a good place to live, a good place to work, and a type of economy that is going to lead this Government on for another four suc- cessful years. Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I am pleased to have an opportunity to rise today to put a few words on the record about the NDP's fourth Budget and certainly, following the Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), it is going to be a little doubly interesting because he certainly put a lot of information on the record that one has to wonder a little bit about. One certainly does have to wonder about the informa- tion that he put on the record and the enthusiasm with which he did it, considering it was a Budget that certainly missed a lot of opportunities.

And yet, the member from Elmwood, and others that have spoken about this, really believed in what he was saying.

April 28, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 657 I think that part of the problem in attracting people to come to this province is because the NDP really have believed some of what they have said today. I think the member from Elmwood has really epitomized that, those com- ments, which makes me think they really do not get it. They really do not get it. Mr. Deputy Speaker, prior to getting into my comments, I would like to wish all of those that are retiring from both sides of the House all of the best in their retire ments or in other careers that they may be taking on.

It has certainly been a pleasure for me to get to know everybody here and learn a lot from everybody that has been part of this Chamber, who have all given a lot of themselves to public life. I think that is a credit to all of them, no matter which side of the House we are on. I do want to wish all of them well and to say that I will miss them and wish them all the est. b Spending has increased by $358 million in this Budget alone. Since 1999, budget spending has increased by $1.27 billion in Manitoba. In this particular Budget there is $11 of new spending for every $1 of new tax relief.

If the member of Elmwood wants to find out why people are not coming to Manitoba, why businesses are not coming here, that may very ell be one of the major reasons right there. w * (15:10) It is a Budget of missed opportunities, missed opportunities to make Manitoba stronger and healthier, but one thing I found interesting is they did not miss any opportunities to keep blaming previous governments in Manitoba. They did not miss an opportunity to blame the federal government.

They do not miss oppor- tunities whenever they can to blame the media or somebody else for all of their lacklustre policies and direction in which they are taking us. It has been so interesting watching all of them. Instead of defending and speaking to their own Budget, they have spent a considerable amount of time attacking us or looking at the past. I find that really strange, because although I was not in government for a long time, we spent a lot of time looking to the future, looking at how to strengthen Manitoba for the people of this province.

Three and a half years into their mandate, their fourth Budget, and they are still acting like they are in opposition. That is too bad, because it is certainly not to the advantage of people in Manitoba to have a government that is wasting so much time with that lack of vision. They cannot defend their own Budget so they are so busy trying to trash everybody else. They missed opportunities to keep our young people in Manitoba, real opportunities. They missed opportunities to attract more investment here. They missed opportunities to create a more competitive province and stronger economy.

They missed opportunities to strength- en our health care system , our education system, our justice system, our family service system, our infrastructure in this problem. Instead, they just threw money at everything. I think they hoped it would land where it would make them popular whether it was meaningful to the province or not. Unfortunately, this poor ability to manage the provincial finances puts Manitoba on a course for disaster.

Just as happened in the second term of the Pawley government and as happened in the second term of the Schreyer government, those particular governments brought Manitoba to its knees. The Doer government has the potential of doing that here in Manitoba, because they are demonstrating an ineptness in understanding a few basic facts, that is, in order to have money to put into valuable social programs, you first have to have a strong, healthy, vibrant economy to raise the money to then invest in your province.

That is not happening in Manitoba, but the NDP adhere to a philosophy that in good times they should spend, it is okay to run deficits, and it will correct itself later on down the road. In fact, the Member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Sale), I believe, has even been commenting on that in the past. I believe there is even a name for that particular understanding, philosophy. In fact I am sure the member from Brandon East (Mr.

Caldwell) probably has the name of that particular philosophy on the tip of his tongue, because it actually exists and members of this Government adhere to it totally: Spend money, run deficits when you have money coming in. But why is that money coming in? Not because of anything that they have done. They are

658 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2003 reaping benefits of a previous government. They are reaping benefits from transfer payments, and they are reaping benefits of taxes coming in. That is not going to be sustainable, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and they are soon going to find that out. The problem with what they do is when you spend and spend, you run a deficit. You have to borrow. You have to spend more to pay off that debt, and pretty soon you have a problem that is big trouble. That is exactly what the Doer government has done.

They have run a deficit after getting a billion dollars of new money in four years. How can any government run a deficit after a billion dollars of new money? Maybe the Member for Elmwood (Mr. Malo- way) could address that the next time he does his speech. How does the Government get a billion dollars, spend it all and run a deficit, raid Hydro, force Hydro to borrow, force Hydro's debt to become even greater than the provincial debt in this province? Where are they going to take this province, Mr. Deputy Speaker? They held Hydro hostage for a big chunk of cash, money that Hydro did not have, by the way.

They had to go and borrow it, and they have put Hydro and this province in jeopardy for the future. They have risked our province's future, and, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Hydro is now looking for an increase of at least 20 percent in rates because of what this Government has done. Mr. Deputy Speaker, it was interesting that when the NDP, the Doer Government first–well, actually, it was even before that, before they even got into government. They were laughing at us because of this billion-dollar promise. Our projections had shown that we would find a billion dollars.

We would put half into tax relief; we would put half into education and health care. They laughed. They absolutely laughed. They ridiculed us; they made fun, and then they turned around because our projections were so good, they found the money. They found it in four years. They found it; they spent it; they ran a deficit, and now they have Hydro's debt larger, larger than the provincial debt. [interjection] The Member for Elmwood said we were visionary. I think, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, vision- ary, yes, but also an ability to manage finances, an ability to look at the books and be able to predict what was happening far better than what this Government has been able to do. In fact, trusting the NDP to be good stewards of our money, especially other people's money, is like trusting the chimps to run the banana plantation. Mr. Deputy Speaker, this Government has failed to be a prudent government. They have failed to address the priority issues of the people of Manitoba.

Instead they have put money where they hope it will best serve their political inter- ests, like the money that went to quietly maintain calm in the Sunrise School Division strike, to name just one, which certainly was political interference at its best. But this is a government that does that well. They seem to be able to quieten things down with political interference, with throwing money at things, and for now they do seem to get away with it.

But I do not think that is going to last, because people are eventu- ally going to see that they have put their faith in the wrong hands, hands that have a total lack of respect for hardworki ng taxpayers in this province. Mr. Deputy Speaker, one of the things that I have been wondering about lately is why this particular Government does seem to get away with a little bit more than what other govern- ments have in the past. I finally figured it out. It was because there were such low expectations of them that even a tiny, tiny amount of tax relief for the Manitoba public was more than what people expected.

People did not expect any kind of tax relief from this Government. They did not have high expectations of an NDP government. That is why I think they can ride on their success a little longer than normal; but that will change, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because people are starting to become aware that the expectations of this Government are low, and they are never going to be at the level where they need to be to create a successful province where people want to stay. Mr. Deputy Speaker, one has to wonder about the legacy the NDP have left to Mani- tobans.

The legacy they have left us is of being the highest taxed middle-income earners west of New Brunswick. Last year, it was west of Québec. Now it is west of New Brunswick. That is nothing to be proud of. Nurses here are

April 28, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 659 struggling to find full -time work. We have a thousand nurses, according to the Nurses' Union, a thousand nurses working between two and four jobs just to get full-time work, just so they can pay their taxes here in this province. We have teachers here who are working hard and having all their tax money taken by this Government. We cannot even compete with Saskatchewan, Mr. Deputy Speaker, who have aggressively addressed tax burdens in their province. We cannot even attract new business to Manitoba.

There are dozens and dozens of vacant commercial buildings in this city because investors and businesses do not want to come here. Why? We have high corporate taxes; we have high personal taxes; we have high property taxes. There is no enthusiasm here. There is no vitality or vibrancy. There is no sense of opti- mism in Manitoba,

whereas you go to a province right now like Alberta, it feels alive; it feels vibrant; it feels optimistic. That is not happening in Manitoba. * (15:20) In fact, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the only busi- nesses coming here right now are those from North Dakota. I am not sure why the Minister of Industry and Trade (Ms. Mihychuk) has not spent some time telling us about all of these new businesses that are coming here from North Dakota trying to attract our middle-sized busin- esses, aggressively attract them to go to down to North Dakota to work. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I sat with two busi- nessmen on Saturday who have been approached by businesses from North Dakota to go down. [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I cannot hear the speaker. Thank you. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I sat with two businessmen on Saturday who said that they are being aggressively pursued to come to North Dakota to set up their business there because the Manitoba environment is not conducive with our labour legislation, with our high taxes. They are looking to reap the benefits of that.

Do not think for a minute that businesses here are not seriously thinking about what offers are being made to them by people from North Dakota, and I am sure that is not the only place that is coming here to recruit in Manitoba. Now, why would people not think of leav- ing? We have only created a hundred new net jobs last year. What a dismal statistic. What an abysmal statistic to be left dead last in Canada with Saskatchewan creating over 11 000 jobs, Ontario creating 220 000, and Manitoba creates 100 net jobs, dead last. It makes one think that the last person to leave Manitoba, please turn out the lights.

The unemployment rate in Manitoba is low, but why, Mr. Deputy Speaker? It is because people are leaving Manitoba. They do not feel there is enough to keep them here. Yes, we have a low unemployment rate, but we have busi- nesses crying out for skilled labour. We have in Manitoba 12 people leaving a day, 12 people leaving a day. That is shameful. That will not strengthen this province. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am speaking for hundreds and hundreds of women, many of them who are mothers whom I have heard from lately, who are telling me that they are worried.

They are very worried that there is not enough hap- pening in this province to keep our children here, to keep their children here. Our young people do not see or feel a sense of hope here. We are seeing 12 people leave this province every day. The Doer government has not been able to attract investment here, to woo business here. There is some development in Winnipeg, but sadly it is all funded by public dollars. There is no private investment happening. Private invest- ors have no faith in coming to this province and setting up businesses here. They worry about our draconian labour legislation.

They are certainly not appreciative of the kind of environment created in this province under an NDP govern- ment. This province is going to shrivel and dry up and turn to dust if the NDP continues down the road they are going, with too much government spending, management by crisis, politics of punishment and keeping us highly taxed, uncom- petitive and settling for mediocrity.

660 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2003 In 1999, in the Tory government under Gary Filmon, Manitoba was starting to feel good about itself. There was an optimism that was almost palpable. There was a can-do attitude. That was no small feat, considering the mess that Gary Filmon and his government had to clean up after Howard Pawley took Manitoba to its knees with his high level of spending. It took the Filmon government years and years to begin to turn that around. Negligence and NDP spending crushed this province under Howard Pawley. The Member for Ste. Rose (Mr.

Cummings) reminded us the other day about the night that the Pawley government went down. The then- member from Dauphin said, and I quote: Do not worry, you will come into government and you will fix the finances and the problem in this province and then we will come back and spend it. That is exactly what the Doer government is doing. After getting a billion dollars of new money, they have spent every red cent, run a deficit and will run more deficits. Then they robbed Hydro blind and are slowly draining the rainy day fund. This is absolutely obscene.

If Manitoba has one disaster like SARS coming into the province or if we see forest fires this summer because it is so dry, that rainy day fund will be depleted. What will happen to the taxpayers of Manitoba, because that is where this Government is going to have to turn? They have run out of places to rob. Hydro has put forward three new projections this year. Every time they have come forward they have asked for more money. They are now asking for a 20% increase in Hydro rates, at least 20 percent over the next nine years. Those are rate increases that they determined after the Doer government robbed them.

Rate increases are going to hurt this province. We are not going to have much spending money left in Manitoba when it comes to the people living in this province. Mr. Speaker in the Chair The NDP talk about future Hydro revenue from exporting power. I am really worried that they are going to spend more expecting this money to come our way down the road, but they do not have a sound business plan for Hydro. They do not have a confirmed deal with Ontario. They do not have increased demands or con- tracts from elsewhere to buy hydro.

Right now it is all pie in the sky, but they are spending like all of this is going to happen and come their way. If the Doer government continues to be imprudent, as they frequently are when it comes to spend- ing, we are going to be in for some very tough times in this province. It is going to be Howard Pawley No. 2. In looking at health care, this Budget sorely lacked in any vision or strategic plan for strengthening our health care system. It just added more money to prop up a system, a health care system struggling to survive.

The Govern- ment continues to solidly support the status quo while people continue to wait and wait and wait and wait for timely access to health care. In cardiac care the system crashed and nine people have died. In this particular Budget, all the health care announcements were old and re- hashed. No surprise, though, coming from a government that forces nurses to lie about the number of patients cared for in hallways. No surprise from a governme nt that fudges numbers in health care to make their record look better than it really is.

No surprise from a government that manipulates information and embellishes the facts because they cannot defend their own poor record in health care. Patients are dying under their watch and when they have an opportunity to make things better, they fail for lack of vision and they fall for lack of planning. Almost three-quarters of a billion dollars has been dumped into health care and little has changed in the health care system in this prov- ince. A renewed vision for health care should have been in this Budget but this Government failed Manitoba in this.

They failed to deliver on that new vision, and we are stuck with the status quo that will continue to drain every cent that they choose to put in it. * (15:30) As they failed in health care, they failed in education, when school divisions were forced to amalgamate and supposedly save $10 million. It is interesting that in the latest newsletter of MAST and I will quote from that particular

April 28, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 661 document and it says, I quote: "School division amalgamation was legislated without a plan and without adequate consideration of the financial consequence of the mergers, the Government is providing $50 per student over three years but in most instances, the money will only partially offset costs such as systems integration, facility rationalization.

It will not begin to cover labour relation costs such as an upward harmonization of wages or benefits." This reality is, then, a stark contrast to the Government's claim that amalgamations would result in savings of $10 million. Money that would be redirected to the classroom. In fact in my school division alone, because of forced amalgamation we are seeing costs increase over $2 million and we are hearing that happening all across the province. I do not think the NDP are going to be any, there is not going to be $10 million of savings from forced amalgamations at all.

In fact, I would like to read one more paragraph from this particular newsletter and it says: "MAST believes that the strike of support workers that began on April 8 in the Sunrise School Division is a foreseeable consequence of the forced amalgamation of school divisions enacted by the Province last year and one which may be repeated in other jurisdictions as more unions and school boards work toward contract harmonization." They say in this particular

article that property taxpayers already shoulder an unfair proportion of education cost and this Government is not making anything better by having forced amalgamations on our school divi- sions. There will be no savings. There is no improved education. What we are going to see are just higher taxes and what a failed policy by an inept government and an inept Minister of Education who put that in and are maintaining that. In Family Services, this Government has horribly failed children.

We certainly heard it today, when it came to a citizen by the name of Jon Amadatsu who got a slap on the wrist for sitting back and enjoying child pornography of children raping children. We have a government that had an opportunity in this Budget to make things better for children in this province. Actu- ally, not only in justice issues, in family service and in the area of health care and vaccinations. Why is it that the NDP government, the Doer government waits until it is too late before enacting some of these things that could make things better for children?

Their policy has failed children when they forced counselling to be terminated abruptly on children desperately in need of counselling. Their policy led to older children being put into shelters with younger children and a four year old paid dearly for that. A four-year-old who wa s sexually molested. Their policy has Winnipeg Child and Family Services saying that the system is in crisis and children are falling through the cracks. Those front-line social workers will know that. Now the Doer government has refused to adequately fund the Children's Advocate to monitor devolution of services.

I suppose that is one way they are going to avoid any account- ability and pretend there may not be any prob- lems with this, and I think the children deserve better than that. This Budget failed to offer Manitobans any vision for an innovative, successful, and sustain- able future. It failed to provide a sustainable provincial spending plan or an economic devel- opment plan. They are spen ding more than they can afford. They are spending more than they are taking in, and this is not sustainable.

When they finish robbing Hydro, they are going to have to pick the pockets of the hardworking taxpayers of Manitoba, because there are few other places that they can go. What is happening today in Manitoba is similar to the story about a frog in boiling water. If you throw a frog in boiling water and it is really, really hot, within two seconds that frog is going to know he is in trouble and he is going to jump out, because he knows if he stays in that boiling water, he is going to cook.

But what we have is an NDP government that figured that out, so what they have done is they have thrown the frog into tepid water, so the frog does not know it is in trouble yet. And then what they do is they crank up the heat a little bit on that water so the frog gets used to it. So you have a government that increases taxes a little bit. They increase taxes, people get used to it, does not know it is in trouble yet, the taxpayers adjust. So they crank up the water a

662 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2003 little bit more so now it is getting a little bit more than tepid, but the frog is getting used to it, just like our taxpayers are sort of getting used to it. But by the time that water is boiling hot, that frog is going to realize it is in trouble and it is going to be too late because it is cooked. In fact, the member from Elmwood just said it. He said it is too late. The time has happened. And he is right. The taxpayers of Manitoba are going to be cooked, with this Government hav- ing increased the temperature of the water.

I think the members of the Government who have just heard this story and they are all in agreement that we have reached the boiling point of the water, they have said, yes, the taxpayers are now at that point. They have realized it. And now we are going to have a frog that is cooked, and taxpayers in this province are cooked. I think certainly this Government has failed Manitoba taxpayers, and I think people are starting to realize that in this province. I think Manitobans deserve more money in their jeans than what this Province has done.

But I think Manitobans, as I heard this weekend, are starting to become aware of what has been inflicted on them, and I think the NDP are going to have a little bit more trouble in this next election than they think they are. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Jim Rondeau (Assiniboia): It gives me great pleasure to speak on behalf of this Budget and talk about the positive news that the Government is moving forward on. I want to start, first, by congratulating the people who have served this Chamber and the people of Manitoba well for a number of years.

I have had the pleasure of getting to know a number of them: the Member for Inkster (Ms. Barrett), the Member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), the Member for Riel (Ms. Asper), the Member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) and, of course, the Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns). These are people who– An Honourable Member: Morris. Mr. Rondeau: And the Member for Morris? Oh, no, no. An Honourable Member: There are a whole bunch of them. Mr. Rondeau: And the Member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer), the Member fo r Morris (Mr. Pitura) and Minnedosa. These are people who have served the government of Manitoba and the people of Manitoba well.

When I got elected in this job, I realized how hard it was, as far as working every day to not only look after the constituency, but also look after government business. I think that these people have served people well. Some- times philosophies differ, but often your basic fundamental is to do a good job every year and make a difference. Thank you very much to those people who served the province, did an excellent job and worked hard every day to try to make it a better place. So my best wishes to all of you in well- deserved retirement.

In the second part, I would like to talk a little bit about our Budget and what is happen- ing. I have to admit I am an optimist. Not only am I a member of the optimist party, but I am optimistic generally. I think that we have a very, very positive future in Manitoba. I look at some of the things that have happened in the last while. Manitoba's economy grew 3.1 percent in real terms in 2002. That is in spite of September 11; that is in spite of many difficulties economi- cally as far as trade with the issues, with terrorism, et cetera. We grew.

In fact, we were second in growth in the province, and that is really an exceptional accomplishment. Manitoba's employment rose by 9100 in 2002, a 1.6% increase to 567 000 people. If you look at the last downturn, we will take that back to 1989. What you have is you have a drop of about 8100 positions in the last downturn versus a growth. I think that really is an important statistic to remember. Let us talk about the growth areas: Finance and insurance, growth by 7.3 percent; retail, growth of 6 percent; transportation, 3.9 percent; manufacturing. We have a wonderful diversified manufacturing economy.

Solid and steady growth is a theme of Manitoba shrugging off a delayed recovery in the U.S. Manitoba posted a healthy 3.1% real GDP advanced last year. That

April 28, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 663 was said by an economic study, not by the NDP government. * (15:40) The other thing is you look at the growth and where we are creati ng growth. We are not trying to create low-end growth. They are trying to create high-end growth. If you look at some of the things that are being built, we have the new Mediplan Internet pharmacy in Niverville, which is being built now and is creating 300 new jobs. We have job postings placed for the new Simplot potato plant in Portage, 230 new jobs.

We saw the announcement last week of a new $10-million pharmaceutical plant to open in St. Boniface, 100 new jobs and new investment. Twenty-one million dollar expansion last week by Winpak, which is in the great constituency of Assiniboia, which will create 13 new jobs. Cormer Group Industries have completed a $12- million dollar expansion, 78 new jobs. Biovail, a real star, announced last month they will need a hundred new employees in Steinbach, and that is just the start. That is 821 new jobs. In fact, Manitoba is doing an excellent job of attracting new capital.

Statistics Canada has indicated that the increase in capital investment in Manitoba will be 13.2 percent, much stronger than B.C., Ontario and almost double Alberta's 5.3 percent. We have created 9100 jobs in the 12 months of 2002 which set a provincial record. We are moving forward. It is important to note what type of jobs we are doing. We are not doing low-end jobs. What we are trying to do is high-end jobs that have high value added, that have good positive growth for the whole economy.

It is interesting to note that in the year 2000, we created 11 700 jobs; 2001, 3500; 2002, 9100, which means that we are producing two to three times the jobs. I think that is wonderful because we are working in co-operation with business, in co-operation with labour, in co-operation with educational institutions. We are working to- gether to move the province forward. We are not creating an adversarial relationship, we are creating a positive relationship. I think that is important. Let us talk about taxes a little bit. When we start talking about taxes, you have to look at what happens as far as trends.

I know that in the nineties, you take school taxes, the proper taxes on school, school taxes in St. James-Assiniboia basically went up 60 percent to 70 percent. What has happened in the last th ree or four years, they have basically remained stable or dropped some- what in the last few years. That makes a big difference because property taxes really, really hurt people on fixed income, people who are retired, people who have a hard time making ends meet. So that is just the school taxes. What we did was the first year we were elected we increased the property tax credit by $75, the next year by another $75.

Last year we helped decrease the ESL by 10 percent. This year we have made an announcement to decrease the education support levy another 20 percent. So what we have been doing is on a regular basis we have been dropping the burden that taxpayers have to pay on their property to support edu- cation. At the same time, what we have been doing is we have been adding money, funding as an increase to the education system. We have targeted certain areas. We have targeted special education, which are helping kids learn in schools, kids with disabilities, kids that need a special assistant.

We have had good increases every year on that. We have also increased the amount of capital spending. I know when I was working for Frontier School Division, we had a hard time trying to get D grants, grants to fix up the facility, to fix up the schools, to put in new roofs. Now we are putting that in so the facilities need repairs and then you do not have to replace them, which costs a lot more money. I think that we have done a good job as far as keeping the burden of taxes down, especially property taxes, which does affect a lot of the seniors and those on fixed income.

I want to talk about the other taxes that we have changed. A two-earner family of four, $60,000–often the Opposition will say, oh, you do not have the lowest taxes, you do not have the lowest taxes, but what they fail to mention is health care premiums. Health care premiums are another form of tax. So when you are comparing jurisdictions, you have to compare apples to apples, cost of government.

664 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2003 What they will say is, oh, in Manitoba a two-earner family of four earning $60,000 pays $3,395 in tax; in Alberta they pay $2,011; in B.C. they pay $1,958. What that says, they will say, oh, you pay less tax, but what they fail to realize is that the B.C. family of four has almost a $1,300 health care premium; Alberta has about a $1,150 health care premium. So what happens is that when you add those all up, the taxes are very, very similar.

What they do not talk about is then you talk about we are the only province in western Canada that gives credits for renters and home- owners. So when you add the $400 property tax credit or renters' credit, then we are by far further ahead for the same family. So when you start talking about being the only province in the west offering rental credits and property tax credits, we are actually ahead. When you talk about the cost of living, mortgages, cost of the rent, electricity, insurance, et cetera, then we become $5,000 or $10,000 or $15,000 ahead, and that becomes important.

The other group that I wanted to just highlight because I am limited for time is a single person for $30,000. In a single person for $30,000 we compare very, very favourably when you take both the heal th care premiums and provincial income tax together. They will sit there and say again that we have a higher tax rate, because in Manitoba we have $1,826 taxes for a single person earning $30,000; Alberta $1,453; and B.C. $1,195.

The Opposition and sometimes the media and some pundits of tax reform, supposed, will say, oh, you need to change because you do not have the lowest tax, but there they forget to add the B.C. $648 tax on health premium, which means $1,843 for them; Alberta's $528 health care premium, which is $1,981; versus Manitoba, with no health care premium, was $1,826. We are the lowest taxed in the category. Why? Because you compare apples to apples. You take all the costs, the health care premiums plus the taxes, and you will find that we compare very, very favourably.

When you talk about our low cost of living, with insurance, electricity, et cetera, we become very, very competitive. That goes for families of four, $40 thousand, et cetera. You can go through it time and time again and realize that we are very tax competitive. Other areas, if you talk about small business: I laughed today because I was reading an

article put out by the Canadian Federation of Inde- pendent Business. It was talking about how important it was and how positive it was that the federal government had started to decrease small business taxes. I thought it was funny because they are starting to do it, but we did it three years ago. What we did was we increased the thresh- old at which they pay taxes. We decreased the tax rate. We know that small businesses are a driver of the economy. Small business we have been promoting. We have been supporting it. We have been supporting it through things like ENSIS and Crocus .

We have been supporting it by raising the tax deductible level. We have been decreasing the tax rate. So we are a friend of small business. Not only are we a friend, but we are doing something concrete about it. I am pleased to be part of a government that knows where the economic driv ers are and actually helps small business proceed. * (15:50) Let us talk about electricity for a second. A lot of the bond-rating services, et cetera, started talking about the importance of a good solid future. Our future is in hydro-electri city. Last week I attended a great conference put on by MacKenzie Universal Funds.

A lot of fund managers and investment advisors, et cetera, were there. These are not normally what we would call left-wing leaners, but here is what happened. Jeremy Rifkin, who is a world famous economist and writer who was hired by the European Union and many governments to advise on the future and where the economy is going, he spoke there. I have had the opportunity to read some of his books, and I have to admit I am a fan. He started to talk, and I will quote some of the things. He said experts have been saying that we have another 40 years or so of cheap, available crude oil.

Now, however, some leading petroleum geologists are suggesting that global oil production could peak and begin a steep decline as early as the end of this decade sending oil prices through the roof. While the fossil fuels era is entering its suns et years, a new hydro

April 28, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 665 regime is being born that has the potential to remake civilization along radical lines. Hydrogen is the most basic and ubiquitous element in the universe. It never runs out and produces no harmful carbon dioxide emissions when burned. The only by-products are heat and pure water. We are at the dawn of a new econ- omy powered by hydrogen that will funda- mentally change the nature of our market and political and social institutions just as steam and coal power did at the beginning of the industrial age.

We in Manitoba have a great potential to build on this hydro. We can use the hydrogen formed by hydro-electricity to move our area forward to become competitive throughout the world. It was interesting to see how Jeremy Rifkin has said that it needs to be a partnership between business, populations and government to move into the next century and into a new industrial age. It is nice that our Government has proven time and again that we can work between those groups and move the area forward. I think we have a great future in this. I think we have strong fundamentals, et cetera.

We can move forward with a hydro grid. We can have an east-west hydro grid and move power to Ontario, which was charging up to 33 cents on a kilowatt hour while we were paying about 3.9 cents. We could move electricity to Saskatchewan and Alberta which would be won- derful for them because, again, the price of electricity is huge. Not only is it huge, but most of their electricity is pr oduced by burning coal, which is a high pollutant and creates a lot of CO 2. So, hopefully, we can develop.

Just to let you know where our future is: Wuskwatim is 200 megawatts, which is a small dam; Kiask is 650 megawatts; and Conawapa is 1400 megawatts. These are all dams that can be produced and would create jobs, create good money and profit for our province, and also a good future for our future generations. We need t

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-4-17
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 4th hansardpdf 17.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	85f4f90357b6d128a6a7fc0d566f43d7882ab4fb

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