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April 26, 2001

37th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

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Hansard Transcript 2001-Apr-26 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Thursday 26 April 2001 Jeudi 26 avril 2001

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

SAVING FOR OUR CHILDREN'S

FUTURE ACT (INCOME TAX

AMENDMENT), 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR L'ÉPARGNE

EN PRÉVISION DE L'AVENIR

DE NOS ENFANTS (MODIFICATION DE LA

LOI DE L'IMPÔT SUR LE REVENU)

MINISTERIAL TRAVEL

ACCOUNTABILITY ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR L'OBLIGATION

DE RENDRE COMPTE

DES VOYAGES MINISTÉRIELS

SAVING FOR OUR CHILDREN'S

FUTURE ACT (INCOME TAX

AMENDMENT), 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR L'ÉPARGNE

EN PRÉVISION DE L'AVENIR

DE NOS ENFANTS (MODIFICATION DE LA

LOI DE L'IMPÔT SUR LE REVENU)

MINISTERIAL TRAVEL

ACCOUNTABILITY ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR L'OBLIGATION

DE RENDRE COMPTE

DES VOYAGES MINISTÉRIELS

SAVING FOR OUR CHILDREN'S

FUTURE ACT (INCOME TAX

AMENDMENT), 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR L'ÉPARGNE

EN PRÉVISION DE L'AVENIR

DE NOS ENFANTS (MODIFICATION DE LA

LOI DE L'IMPÔT SUR LE REVENU)

MINISTERIAL TRAVEL

ACCOUNTABILITY ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR L'OBLIGATION

DE RENDRE COMPTE

DES VOYAGES MINISTÉRIELS

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

COMMUNITY COLLEGES

VOLUNTEERS

HIGHWAY TOLLS

VOLUNTEERS

FARM PRACTICES PROTECTION

SUMMIT OF THE AMERICAS

VOLUNTEERS

HOUSE SITTINGS

GOVERNMENT TRAVEL EXPENDITURES

VOLUNTEERS

CONSIDERATION OF BILL 13

MEMBER'S PRIVILEGE

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

EDUCATION AMENDMENT ACT (RESTORING PEACE

IN OUR SCHOOLS), 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR L'ÉDUCATION (RÉTABLISSEMENT DE LA PAIX DANS LES ÉCOLES)

MOTIONS

HOUSE SITTINGS

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

(CONTINUED)

ONTARIO NATURAL

HERITAGE ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LE PATRIMOINE NATUREL DE L'ONTARIO

FRANCO-ONTARIAN

EMBLEM ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001

SUR L'EMBLÈME FRANCO-ONTARIEN

ONTARIO STUDENT LOAN HARMONIZATION ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR L'HARMONISATION

DES PRÊTS D'ÉTUDES DE L'ONTARIO

TOWN OF NEWMARKET ACT, 2001

PREMIUM AUTO

COLLISION INC. ACT, 2001

GOOD SAMARITAN ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LE BON SAMARITAIN

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

AMENDMENT ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LE CONSEIL EXÉCUTIF

WYCLIFFE COLLEGE ACT, 2001

PROTECTION OF CHILDREN INVOLVED IN PROSTITUTION ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LA PROTECTION

DES ENFANTS QUI SE LIVRENT

À LA PROSTITUTION

HIGHWAY TRAFFIC

AMENDMENT ACT

(YOUTH PROTECTION), 2001 /

LOI DE 2001

MODIFIANT LE CODE DE LA ROUTE (PROTECTION DE LA JEUNESSE)

MUNICIPAL AMENDMENT ACT

(ADULT ENTERTAINMENT

PARLOURS), 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LES MUNICIPALITÉS (LOCAUX

DE DIVERTISSEMENT POUR ADULTES)

GOOD SAMARITAN ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LE BON SAMARITAIN

VISITORS

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

EARLY YEARS CENTRES

EDUCATION REFORM

POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION

EDUCATION REFORM

EARLY YEARS CENTRES

EDUCATION REFORM

WORKERS MEMORIAL DAY

ORAL QUESTIONS

EDUCATION LABOUR DISPUTES

HYDRO RATES

MINISTRY OF

THE ENVIRONMENT STAFF

EDUCATION REFORM

CHILDREN'S SECRETARIAT

STUDENT LOANS

CHILD POVERTY

JUDICIAL APPOINTMENTS

LIVING LEGACY

FAMILY RESPONSIBILITY OFFICE

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

CONSIDERATION OF BILL 13

ORDERS OF THE DAY

THRONE SPEECH DEBATE /

DÉBAT SUR LE DISCOURS DU TRÔNE

ADJOURNMENT DEBATE

JUDICIAL APPOINTMENTS

Thursday 26 April 2001 Jeudi 26 avril 2001

The House met at 1000.

Prayers.

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

SAVING FOR OUR CHILDREN'S

FUTURE ACT (INCOME TAX

AMENDMENT), 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR L'ÉPARGNE

EN PRÉVISION DE L'AVENIR

DE NOS ENFANTS (MODIFICATION DE LA

LOI DE L'IMPÔT SUR LE REVENU)

Mr Hastings moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 4,

An Act to amend the Income Tax Act to provide a tax credit for contributions to registered education savings plans / Projet de loi 4, Loi modifiant la Loi de l'impôt sur le revenu en vue de prévoir un crédit d'impôt pour les cotisations versées à un régime enregistré d'épargne-études.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): The member for Etobicoke North has 10 minutes to make his presentation.

Mr John Hastings (Etobicoke North): I'm very delighted to have this opportunity and good fortune to have come up one in the balloting to present what I consider a very important piece of legislation. I hope some day that it will see its way into a budget and become part of this government's and this party's philosophy about educational access and educational opportunity.

In May 2000, I introduced

an act entitled the E-Commerce Act, 2000, which was adopted by the Attorney General in some major changes with respect to privacy provisions. So I'm having a second kick at the cat, so to speak, in terms of this particular bill.

The essence of the saving for our children's future bill, or an amendment to the Income Tax Act, relates to registered education savings plans. These plans have been in operation for a number of years and have been authorized by the federal government.

However, in the last few years -- I'd say since about 1996-97 -- there has been an incentive to parents, grandparents, foster families or other people who are responsible for children that if you contribute up to, I believe, a maximum -- there is an incentive of either $200 or $400 per child that can also be provided by the taxpayer through the federal government to maximize the value of the contribution. The purpose of this bill is to provide additional addenda in the building blocks of getting our young people looked after for the mid- and long-term future.

If you look at any of these plans, there is one particular plan -- I won't name the company -- where you can provide for about $10 a month. You will say, "That's a pretty modest amount, but how will that really help my child, my grandchild, my nephew?" It's the old magic of compounding interest. It's the whole idea that if you put $10 a month away, that's $120 a year; times 10 years, and you have $1,200. Even if you have it in a guaranteed investment instrument, at the end of that time, you will probably have close to $2,000.

Critics might say, "Well, $2,000 is really not going to be an awful lot of money for anybody who is trying to access post-secondary education in this province," but in point of fact, it can be a significant benefit to those families who take advantage of the RESP federally, and what we would like to see provincially, in that it reduces the long-term debt -- one of the trends that is most disturbing -- for those students who go to university, who go to a community college or who go to a private vocational school.

I'm sure I'm going to hear debate from the other side, "If you would only increase the amount of funding, you would solve the problem, or if you would freeze tuition fees, you would solve most of the problem." But in point of fact, we have a significant number of competitive spending constraints that we have to deal with in the outreach, whether it be in health care, in corrections, in a whole number of government activities.

It seems to me that it's incumbent to create in this province and across this country a position of leadership that would encourage a culture of responsibility to have people help their children learn for the future, to give them the opportunity to go to a post-secondary institution. I think most parents, grandparents, foster parents, uncles or aunts are interested in doing that. However, the reality is that in a large number of instances, particularly reported by Statistics Canada, it's not occurring. So that's another fundamental benefit for presenting this bill for consideration today.

Briefly, I had a news conference yesterday and I had a lovely lady from the riding of Etobicoke North attend my news conference. I'll simply use her first name. Marcy first opened an RESP account for her son when he was 13 months old and she was out of work. "As a single mother with no source of income, I felt it was imperative" -- and these are her words -- "that I start saving for my son's education." Seven years later, she thinks it was one of the best things she has ever done.

Now employed in a client services responsibility, in a payroll firm, she has consistently contributed $25 to $35 monthly for her son Alexander's post-secondary education. It doesn't seem like a lot but it will really add up. She recommends an RESP to anyone interested in securing his or her child's future.

"With the way the economy is going today, there is no telling what university costs will be when Alexander goes to school," she admits. "When I look at what my nephews are going through to put themselves through university, I am really happy to have started an RESP." And she is a lady with an income of below $30,000.

That's one of the principal provisions of this bill. It targets these benefits for individuals, single moms who are earning $40,000 or less, and it targets families at the upper end at $80,000. We want to ensure that if this ever becomes part of a budget or some other piece of legislation, it encapsulates those two principal considerations in the bill.

Finally, I may say that a number of provinces across this country are looking to Ontario to see what happens with respect to this piece of legislation -- where it goes -- because there are a large number of provincial governments that are interested at some point, given their expenditure situations, in becoming involved in this area, not just primarily for the consideration of families but also from a constitutional perspective.

In the last few years, the federal government, bless their hearts, has become involved in education, and while I don't want to use the constitutional argument to a great extent, under the existing federal arrangement, education is supposed to be primarily a provincial responsibility. Here we now have the federal government involved. We understand why. It's because we live in a globalized, interconnected world and I think that is primarily their rationale, but the provincial governments want to reassert and get involved at some point in the near future in this type of program.

Finally -- or second-finally -- I think it's important that this bill have serious consideration from the viewpoint of the human potential that can be released. Regardless of what government is here on this side, or in any other provincial capital or in Ottawa in the coming decades of this century, it is inevitable that the price and cost of post-secondary education is rising and will be rising. The trend rate right now is about 5% to 5.5%.

If you look at a projection from Statistics Canada, by 2018, it is estimated that the cost of a university education in Ontario and probably in other parts of the country will reach nearly $120,000. That's assuming no increases and that you just have the existing trend. This is a modest way of trying to respond in a positive, specific way in changing that trend line and getting parents and working families involved in the education of their children, their grandchildren or foster children -- and there are a lot of foster parents in this province.

That's my presentation for today. I will be glad to hear remarks from the other speakers to follow.

Mrs Marie Bountrogianni (Hamilton Mountain): I'm pleased to speak to this bill. In fact, this bill is very similar to the policy we had in the last election. I'm very pleased that there are people on the other side who care about working families. I believe this is important enough that it should have been a government bill, but I congratulate the member for bringing something forward.

There are a couple of things the honourable member across the way mentioned, though, that make me want to say a few things. I applaud Marcy, the young lady you met yesterday, but there are families with $40,000 or less who have more than one child and who would still find this difficult. Anything we can do to help working families is a worthwhile bill -- and I'm not saying this isn't -- but the reality out there is a little more stark than perhaps the other side realizes.

Over the last decade, the average student debt load upon graduation has increased by $11,821, from $8,675 to $20,496. If this bill does anything to address that student debt problem in the future, it will be a worthwhile bill.

During that same period, the average tuition fee for an arts and science student has increased by $2,300 per year, from $1,639 to $3,951 per year. Again, if you give with the one hand, as this bill wants to do, and then take away, on the other hand, by increasing tuition, then the net effect will not be of any value to the students of this province, either now or in the future.

The cost of living has increased by 373% over the past three decades, while tuition fees have increased by approximately 678%. From 1984 to 1999, the aggregate amount of outstanding student loans increased 6.2 times, while the median student loan debt rose from $3,000 to $7,000.

Today, to put this in more practical terms, a student must work 660 hours in order to pay for a four-year bachelor degree. In 1977, the same degree would have required 235 hours of work. I know when my cohort went to university 25 to 30 years ago, if you worked a summer on minimum wage for four months, you could actually pay for your university and your room and board. That's not possible today. If students live in cities and towns where there is a university or a college, they can attend those institutions, if that's their only choice financially, but for those who don't have institutions in their hometowns and they need to leave their town, the room and board is an added expense.

For the 1997-98 academic year, the average OSAP award was $7,700, but the average student debt levels have more than doubled since the provincial government eliminated the Ontario student grant. Over the past five years, the amount of loan assistance available to students has decreased by $500 million. This is from the Ontario Undergraduate Student Alliance. Some 31% of family units in which the major income recipient was under 25 owed student loans. Again, we do need bills like this, but they're only a beginning. In these young families, student loans represented 52% of their total household debt.

I found it interesting that the member's bill includes families, single people who make $40,000 or less or families that make $80,000 or less. Well, $80,000 was the average family income of the students who went to medical school at Western 10 years ago. That average family income has increased from $80,000 to $140,000 now. I found the $80,000 a very interesting figure because of that. It probably isn't coincidental; maybe the research was done. But even families between $80,000 and $140,000 can't afford to send their kids to medical school the same way that they did a few years ago because of the deregulation of the fees.

The average annual student loan disbursement rose by 30.9% from 1991 to 1996. It has actually gone up by over $1,000. I'm happy to see the feds are getting into the game. It is a provincial jurisdiction, but as the member opposite mentioned, it is a global economy and we have to invest in post-secondary at all levels of government if we are to compete.

Some 217,000 post-secondary students relied on the government's Ontario student assistance program to cover a portion of their educational and associated living costs in 1997-98. These students, without assistance, would presumably not have been able to attend post-secondary university. Again, any assistance to students, whether it's through RESPs or through government assistance, is needed.

I'll talk in a few minutes about how the demographics are changing. We will have a huge baby boom effect, the echo boom effect, which will require more investment into post-secondary education.

Interest rates on the Canadian student loan are based on a fixed rate of prime 5% or a floating rate of prime plus 2.5%. Actually, the Ontario student loan is based on prime plus 1%. In this case, the Ontario government is actually charging the students less interest than the federal government. I know the Ontario government and the federal government are working on harmonizing that, making one student loan, and I support that. Again, anything that will help working families send their children to post-secondary education, something we support on this side of the House.

The default rate on student loans for university students last year, the year 2000, was 7.1%; the college default rate was 17.2%. I think the reason for that is that in many instances students who go on to community college are adult learners who have families who can't necessarily pay right away and they need time and assistance in order to do that.

I actually had a meeting yesterday with the bureaucrats from the Ministry of Colleges and Universities, and work is underway to improve the OSAP system. I'm happy to hear that and am looking forward to what exactly the changes will be so that we can respond.

There are no accurate records that are kept which measure the level of debt incurred through family and non-governmental assistance bank loans. We have statistics on how many students have OSAP and Canadian students' loans from the federal government, but we really don't have accurate statistics about the students who don't qualify for OSAP, or even for those who do, as far as how much debt they have incurred from banks, like the Bank of Nova Scotia, the Bank of Montreal and so forth. I believe if we had statistics, we could see that this problem is even greater than we know, and therefore, again, any bill or any policy that will improve this is welcome.

I just want to put a human face to some of the numbers I gave. Jeff Sutton is a major in finance and economics from the University of Western Ontario. I have his permission to talk about his case. His hometown is right here in Toronto. A good student, his current education-related debt is $17,500. His aspirations are a career in sales and marketing, possibly an MBA. He's currently the vice-president of education on Western's student council, and he has previously worked in retail and security. He volunteered as a Big Brother during his first three years at Western.

He's also a member of the hockey team at Western. This is a responsible young man who has not incurred this debt irresponsibly. In fact, for the first two years of his studies he didn't have a debt, because his parents were able to help him. But something changed in his family situation which then required him to take out loans, and that is why in two years he incurred such a large debt. But he was willing to do it, because he knows the statistics: if you have a post-secondary education, you'll go further in life, you'll be healthier and you'll be safer.

Research has shown all that, and it's actually logical as well.

Tina Yeung is in theatre and drama studies at the University of Toronto. Her debt is $14,050. She has worked in numerous jobs, including assistant tax administrator, tour guide for middle-school-aged youth and camp counsellor. She currently has two jobs, as a pharmacy assistant and working in a restaurant.

So, to assume that some of these students are irresponsible in incurring the debt or that their families haven't helped them is wrong. They do what they can, but they do need assistance from us, and indeed that's our responsibility.

Tina also finds time to do volunteer work. She's a member of the theatre standing committee for Hart House Theatre, she's class representative for four years and a volunteer with numerous local and community theatre groups -- truly a future leader in our community. This is what she says:

"I had to work through most of high school in order to save for university. After the first year, it seemed that I would need to continue to work during the school year as well as the summer. Most of my tuition and residence costs that weren't covered by my student loans were paid for by my jobs, but I did receive some assistance from my family. I wanted to try to pay for as much of my education as I could out of my savings from work.

"I hope to one day be trilingual ... so that if theatre or film doesn't work out I can pursue a degree in tourism. No matter where I end up, I would like to be active in my community."

She already owes, without finishing, $14,000.

Scott Courtice from Queen's University already owes $22,000. He wants to go to law school and possibly a career in politics, so of course we need to support Scott. Scott comes from a middle-class family with one working parent and his father is semi-retired, having recently left the small business he owned. His parents assisted him as much as they could but, like many students, this support fell short of covering all of the costs of a post-secondary education.

He falls in a category that does not allow him to get OSAP, so he has secured bank loans for his four years of school, and that is why the loan is so high, a situation that sees Scott making interest payments of about $150 each month. That means, in addition to the cost of tuition, books and living expenses, if he goes on to law school, he'll have to find $150 a month. But he remains optimistic. "I plan on attending law school and aspire to enter politics. I have a passion for social justice and want to enter politics to safeguard Canada as an equal and just society."

These are amazing young people we have in our community. Again, we applaud any measure on this side of the House that helps working families help their kids go on to post-secondary education, like Jeff, like Tina, like Scott.

I want to talk just for a couple minutes about the increase in demographics or the change in demographics in the next decade. The Ministry of Finance's demographic projections indicate that the population aged 18 to 24 will grow by more than 20% in the next decade. The majority of that growth, by the way, is in the 905 area. In Durham, in particular, that age cohort will grow by 40%, and yet the University of Toronto and York University have asked for capital funds to expand their campuses in those areas and have, at least for now, been rejected.

I believe the government needs to heed those demographics. We're going to have an explosion in that demographic in the next decade and we need to plan for it now. Again, if you look at the study, it shows that these kids don't live away from home, the ones in the 905 belt; they prefer to go to universities here in Toronto. So these students and their families are assuming that they will have a space in one of our three universities here and are financially planning for that eventuality, not for going away, the majority of them, and therefore we need to do our part and plan for that eventuality as well.

The bill has many good points. Again, I like the fact that families with incomes of $80,000 and less will be eligible, as well as single individuals with an income of $40,000 or less. As the member opposite won't be surprised to hear, I would have liked it to go a little further because I do know that if an individual has an income of $40,000 or less, there are differences if that individual has more than one child. Marcy, the young lady who spoke to the member opposite yesterday, perhaps only had one child, Alexander, and she managed to do the right thing, and I applaud her.

However, if she had more than one child, would she have been able to put away that money every month for her kids' education?

A good start, but again, this government gives with one hand and takes with the other. Quite frankly, I hope the member opposite doesn't have the same fate that my private member's bill had, the severance bill, where it was passed unanimously. It was supported on all sides of the House, but this government, by delaying legislation by one month, killed all the bills. I hope this bill doesn't have the same fate. Indeed, if Mike Harris were truly supportive of this and of these endeavours, he would have made this a government bill and not a private member's bill.

Dalton McGuinty and the Liberal Party and this caucus support any change that will help working families send their kids to post-secondary education, and I've been pleased to speak to this bill.

Mr Rosario Marchese (Trinity-Spadina): I very much would have liked to have engaged in this debate because there are things I want to tell the member for Etobicoke North and his government about what they are not doing with respect to adequate funding for the post-secondary educational system. So while I would have supported it -- I would have, in spite of some comments I made to a constituent who is here -- and while I have concerns, I feel compelled and obliged to tell you, Speaker, that under the standing orders this may be a violation, and I'll read

section 56 because I'll need your ruling.

Section 56 says, "Any bill, resolution, motion or address, the passage of which would impose a tax or specifically direct the allocation of public funds, shall not be passed by the House unless recommended by a message from the Lieutenant Governor, and shall be proposed only by a minister of the crown."

Speaker, I think you need to rule on this because we need to protect ourselves from this motion before us.

The Deputy Speaker: Mr Marchese has raised a point of order. Is there any comment on the point of order?

Mr Hastings: This is an old chestnut used by somebody who is probably not prepared to deal with the merit of the case.

If the member for Fort York could recall -- and I'm sure he has a very good memory -- the previous member for Algoma-Manitoulin from your caucus raised the same issue with respect to a bill I introduced three years ago called the Technology for Classrooms Tax Credit Act. It was referred to Speaker Stockwell and to the leg counsel at that time and it came back with a clarification and clearance.

If you read the bill carefully, it is not a money bill, because it does not propose the expenditure of a penny. What it does do is raise the idea of looking at a tax credit. It's a concept. There's a big difference. I hope the member for Fort York would take that into consideration and get on with the debate on the merits of the bill.

Mr Joseph Cordiano (York South-Weston): This is subject matter that is dear to my heart and I commend the member for bringing the subject matter forward.

However, in 1998, at the time I wrote an

article that appeared in the Toronto Star on this very subject, the idea of a tax credit attached to an RESP, I wanted to propose this as a private member's bill. I was told by leg counsel this would be a money bill, that it could not be introduced into this assembly by way of a private member's bill for that reason.

I would like to support what the member for Trinity-Spadina has proposed with regard to his reference to the standing orders and I would ask that you look into this matter, whether it is appropriate for this bill to be introduced in this fashion.

Of course, we support the notion of the bill and the principle of the bill and, to back what my colleague said earlier in her comments, this should have been a government bill and not a private member's bill. It is indeed worthy of support.

However, one has to question the appropriateness of this bill in this form at this time, using the vehicle of a private member's bill, so I would refer that as well to you, Mr Speaker.

Hon Janet Ecker (Minister of Education, Government House Leader): I certainly appreciate the points from the opposition. It is my understanding that due diligence had been exercised in this case with this legislation to ensure that we were technically correct. It is my understanding that we are. Certainly, Mr Speaker, if you wish to pass further comment on that -- so I would respectfully suggest that we should continue with this. It is an important issue. The opposition has certainly expressed interest in pursuing this. I think the member has worked hard to bring this in today for all of us to debate, a very important issue.

The Deputy Speaker: Thank you. I want some time to consider this, so we will take a short recess while I do.

The House recessed from 1033 to 1038.

The Deputy Speaker: I would like to thank the member for Trinity-Spadina for raising this point of order and the other members who contributed their comments to this point of order.

I would cite as a precedent Mr Stockwell's ruling on Bill 24; I'll just quote this for you:

"With respect to the orderliness of Bill 24, it does not impose a tax" -- which is similar to Bill 4 -- "indeed, it does the opposite in alleviating a tax. It does not specifically allocate public funds; its passage may cause the government to forgo a certain amount of revenue, and thereby impose a burden on the Consolidated Revenue Fund, but this equates only indirectly to an expenditure. There are ample precedents fully supporting the permissibility of such a proposal."

I share Mr Stockwell's views; this bill is in order.

On a point of order, the member for Etobicoke North.

Mr Hastings: I have a point of order for the Chair as to the use of the time. Do we still keep going on the hour, or do we restore the clock for the last six or seven minutes?

The Deputy Speaker: We have not lost any time; we have the same amount of time for each speaker from each caucus.

Mr Marchese: Thank you, Speaker. I appreciate the clarification you made. I'm happy; that's why we're here. We call points of order on the basis of our understanding and then you clarify them and we move on.

On this issue, the member from Etobicoke North --

Mr Wayne Wettlaufer (Kitchener Centre): It gave you five minutes to learn something about the issue.

Mr Marchese: Mr Wettlaufer, it's good to see you here.

Here's my problem: while we are going to support this bill, the problem with the bill is that it doesn't speak to the problems that have been caused by this government. As the member from Etobicoke North said, he's going to hear from the opposition about all the things that we are going to say that may appear to be in opposition, and then he spoke about the fact that there are so many other constraints upon this government in education and health that there's really not much we could do, so this is a really neat idea and we ought to be supporting it.

But here's the problem: this government has cut from our university sector alone -- not to forget the college sector -- $500 million, and they did this in a good economy. When the money was rolling in, Mr Hastings, the member from Etobicoke North, wasn't there to say that we shouldn't be cutting $500 million from post-secondary education. I never heard him or any other member saying, "We need to support our post-secondary education with money." He was there saying, "We've got to cut. There's too much fat in the bureaucracy and in government and we've got to cut."

Yes, they cut in good economic times and they cut in post-secondary education, the university and college system, and they do it with glee, they do it with pleasure. They have no problem finding $12 billion or so of our income tax money to give away to the corporate sector and to individuals who make high wages. They have no problem stealing your money, good citizens, and giving it away, instead of investing those billions of dollars in the sectors that are critical to us, which are health and elementary, secondary and post-secondary education. So while we have money, we do nothing with it except to give it away to the people who don't need it.

Mr Hastings comes forth with a neat idea saying, "Parents need help." Yes, they need help, but if they truly need help, why don't you eliminate tuition fees altogether? We wouldn't need this scheme, because then everybody would have access. How would we pay for it? We would pay for it through a progressive income tax system. We would pay for it by not giving away our money to the private sector and to individuals on high incomes. We would have loads of money if we decided that tuition fees are a barrier and that it's costly and that it's keeping a lot of people away from post-secondary education.

But that's not the commitment this government has. The commitment they have is completely exclusionary. If you've got the money, fine; if you don't, too bad. This tax credit is not going to help the person who is making $30,000 very much, and although Mr Hastings mentioned one individual who says, "We've got a plan for the future of our children" -- good God, doesn't he know that the majority of people who make $30,000 can't invest a penny in RRSPs or invest in the registered education savings plan? People don't have money to invest.

He would know and you would know that over 300,000 tenants are paying over 50% of their income on rent alone.

Do you think, therefore, that Mr Hastings believes or understands that they would invest the rest of the 50% on these kinds of programs? They will not, because the other 50% is for, what, basic stuff like maybe some clothes, and it might not be a fine jacket but just plain old stuff, just plain old clothes. Do you think they would have any money for a little entertainment, like going to a show, perhaps? We're not talking about Florida and going off with some fancy cigar; we're talking about just a little money for some recreational activity. I tell you, the people earning $30,000, $35,000 or $40,000 can't afford to stash money away in a plan.

I know there is a gentleman here who is nodding and saying, "Yes, they can." Well, there might be, because Mr Hastings mentioned one person. Maybe there are two or three, maybe there are more. There aren't too many. The people who will invest in this plan are the people who have money. I tell you, and I've said it here many times, I as a person who makes $78,000 could not afford to pay -- I know, Speaker, you seem a bit afraid; I'm intimidating you too. My daughter had only one year of help from me. I make $78,000. The other years, she has been on her own.

I know, from the Minister of Culture, that's OK and fine by you, and maybe with your $78,000 plus your ministerial salary you've been able to stash away a couple of bucks. God bless you, and God bless your buddies, women and men buddies, who have been able to put the money aside to help their kids. But only in the last two years have I been able to -- I decided it's important to put some money aside for my son, because he'll be, hopefully, in university a couple of years from now. So, I get the benefit from the federal government, and I would get the benefit from this bill, should he introduce it. So I, who started this two years ago for my son, will benefit somewhat.

But I am arguing with you -- Speaker, don't be too intimidated; through you to Mr Hastings -- that the people who make $30,000 or $40,000 don't have the extra cash to stash away in such a plan. What they need is help from this government. What they need is to be able to reinvest in post-secondary education. Put the $500 million back. Reduce tuition fees if you won't eliminate them. If you won't have it free, reduce it; don't increase it, as you have done for the last five years, where tuition fees have gone up 60% under you fine people, you fine taxpayer types of people -- 60%.

We are short of professors in our university system. Our facilities are going down, in spite of your bragging remarks about the SuperBuild fund, which only spends half of the money we used to spend, and this, as you have a growing population getting into the universities. You smile gleefully, saying, "Ha, ha, ha, we're spending so much more."

We are short of money, short of university professors, we'll have 90,000 more students by the next decade, and this government says, "Don't worry, we've got a private university coming in. They'll fill in the space." How can one little university fill the space? "Oh, don't worry about that. The SuperBuild is building so much space that it will cover all the 90,000 people," the argument comes from the spokespeople of these fine people, including the minister.

The space is not there. So we've got a little plan here, a little tax credit. It's going to help people like me, at my $78,000 range, but it's not going to help people like Stavros Papavasiliou, who is here today to observe the proceedings of this House and to listen to us all debate this very issue so that he can learn from Mr Hastings how he will benefit from such a plan. So if his dad is able to invest a couple of bucks more in this plan, Mr Hastings is your man, because he's going to come and give you $100 more on the first $1,000. That should help a whole lot.

That's going to help a whole lot, because the average tuition fees are $20,000. Ha. OK. Invest $1,000, you get $100. My God, yes. If Stavros is here, he's going to save you. He's going to help you a lot.

Mr Hastings said, "We've got so many constraints, such as, we've got to give more money to the corporate sector to reduce their load because, God, they need help from us. And the income tax cut, we're so committed to that and we've got to give the other two billion to four billion bucks; oh, these constraints on us in order to get the economy going." John, how do you like that? How do you like these arguments? How do you guys defend yourselves out there? How do you defend your commitment to these couple of billion dollars in income tax cuts to the corporate sector when the economy is slipping?

Do you remember M. Harris saying, "We have created a recession-proof economy"? Do you remember that? That was M. Harris saying, "We have created a recession-proof economy," the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): Dumb and dumber.

Mr Marchese: And it's getting dumber because they are still plunging ahead with their plan -- the plan is working -- to destroy us. And what was the plan? Income tax cuts. That's what was going to save us from the devastation of recessions, should they occur in the US.

By the way, do you remember that Mike Harris and the others laughed, ha, ha, when the NDP was in power and we had a recession? They would laugh, saying, "No, you caused the recession. You didn't have a revenue problem, you had a spending problem," they used to say.

Mr Kormos: They were there with their hands out every step of the way: "Build me a hospital. Build me a school."

Mr Marchese: Every step of the way their hands were reaching out.

I say to you, we've got an economy that's about to plunge down.

Hon Helen Johns (Minister without Portfolio [Health and Long-Term Care]): Two per cent projections for next year. Is anyone reading the newspapers?

Mr Kormos: Mr Roth is doing well. Mr Stronach is doing even better.

Mr Marchese: Growth. Mr Stronach I think earned $25 million this year. There are a couple of people doing well in the economy, but generally, thousands of people are being laid off, every day for the last two months.

Mr Kormos: How many for Nortel alone?

Mr Marchese: Nortel I think laid off 5,000, 10,000 people. So many companies are laying people off.

I say to the folks across the way that if the economy is going down, we need to save some money. We need to protect ourselves and not give it away. We need it because welfare is going to go up, unless they decide to completely --

Mr Kormos: The Tories will put them on the street.

Mr Marchese: That would save us some money if they put them on the street, wouldn't it?

Mr Hastings is quite proud of this bill, I understand that, but I am saying that what we need is a plan from the government to help students, to help the university sector, so that we have the money to be able to prepare ourselves for this new economy, and this bill doesn't do it. It doesn't help the majority of people earning 30,000, 40,000, 50,000 bucks because they need all the money they've got.

Mr Kormos: And $18,000 and $20,000.

Mr Marchese: Forget about those people because they don't have any money.

Although we are going to support this as a little measure that moves the yardstick just a little, it does nothing really to deal with the problems these people have caused.

Mr Marcel Beaubien (Lambton-Kent-Middlesex): It's a pleasure for me to speak on Bill 4 this morning, which is

An Act to amend the Income Tax Act to provide a tax credit for contributions to registered education savings plans.

My colleague from Trinity-Spadina was talking about the cost of jackets. It's amazing that my trademark says Wal-Mart but I thought his, on the other side, said Armani. So I wonder what he was talking about.

There is no doubt that providing financial means for a higher education is a challenging task for many people. As my colleague from Trinity-Spadina would lead you to believe, he would like to have the government pay everything, pay the full education costs. I guess he wants free tickets on the TTC. He probably wants a free Cadillac also, while I would expect a free Chevrolet.

Most people believe, and I adhere to that philosophy, that there is a responsibility both for the government and for the person who receives the education to have a financial stake in obtaining that education. There are different ways of obtaining the financial means to obtain a higher education. One would be to have rich parents, but most of us don't have that luxury. Some of us might be lucky in winning a lottery but, again, most of us don't have that luxury. Of course, there's the scholarship avenue but, again, an awful lot of students don't have that opportunity.

What I would like to talk briefly about this morning is the registered education savings plan.

Ce plan encourage l'enseignement supérieur. Ce plan est visé pour ceux avec une source de revenu soit inférieure ou moyenne. Ce plan encourage les parents ou les étudiants de démontrer leur responsabilité sur le plan personnel pour leur futur, au lieu de toujours compter sur le gouvernement.

I realize that what we have in front of us here today is not a perfect solution, this part of the solution. But to hear my colleague from Trinity-Spadina this morning -- he had approximately 15 minutes to address this issue. He probably spoke on it for about a minute. He talked about everything else but the issue that's before us today. I guess I could probably expect that from him, because basically they are more interested in the ideology than in dealing with the problems that people face, that students are facing.

However, and I can speak from experience, I'm absolutely convinced that once you have a financial stake in your education, the results will be there. I'm sure there's going to be a tremendous amount of personal satisfaction in having invested in your future.

Let me quote from a person who sent a letter to Mr Hastings. I'll quote from her letter, which was sent on April 24.

"I am an RESP subscriber with a two-and-a-half-year-old son. I would benefit greatly from your proposal to introduce a tax credit for RESP investment for low- to middle-income families. Financial security is a major concern for all Canadians, and post-secondary education is a major investment that requires planning and saving well in the future. As a teacher myself, I understand the value of a good education and hope to instill that in my son."

I think that speaks for the large majority of Ontarians. They are willing to contribute financially to their own education and to the education of their children. So I would urge all the members of this House today to vote in favour of this bill.

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): It's my privilege and my pleasure to speak in support of the member for Etobicoke North's private member's bill. Mr Hastings has gone to some extent to represent the argument that families -- small, independent economic units called the family -- and their children need a future, and certainly the children.

This goes a long way toward signalling the right kind of policy, which is to lower taxes, really. People all over, from all income groups, have argued for years that taxes are too high and some kind of bureaucrat makes the decision on where to spend it and allocate it, without much accountability to the public.

But I speak from the perspective of a parent of five children. It's my wish and hope that all five children graduate with some sort of skills and education, be it university, college or careers. There are skilled-trade shortages today. So we have to do everything we can within out fiscal and legislative authority to, first, signal the importance of parents contributing and getting tax relief for contributing to their children's future.

Indeed, it could be said that I, as a parent, and my wife work very hard for our economic unit. I don't expect in a normal sequence of events that Mr Sergio or anyone else in this House today should pay for my children. We have a collective responsibility, and of course, as we all know, post-secondary institution funding, whether it's through the Canada student loan or through OSAP or for the direct funding of the operational costs of post-secondary institutions, does come from the provincial government.

We have a challenge ahead of us to make sure that we have quality education that's accessible and affordable. In the climate that we're in today, where all of the stakeholders within the universities want more income, which is arguably correct, and they want to be rewarded, who is going to pay for that? Who else is paying for it? The government actually has no money. It really reallocates or redistributes money.

The economic unit of this country, of this great province is the family. What Mr Hastings is trying to say here is that it's the right thing to do to save for your children's future. I support that. I think everyone in the House will support it. I look forward to unanimous consent and moving forward quickly with a plan that helps every family in this province, regardless of income, to help their children and our collective future.

Mr Ted Arnott (Waterloo-Wellington): I'm pleased to speak for about half a minute, I guess, to support my colleague's bill. I think this is a very important initiative that will help many families in the province of Ontario to save money for their children's education.

The member asked me to indicate my experience. I've got three young boys. My wife and I are already trying to save money for their post-secondary education that we hope they will pursue.

Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South): Name them.

Mr Arnott: I should name them, yes: Jack, Phillip and Dean. Jack is almost six -- five and a half he tells me; Phillip is three and a half, almost four; and Dean is two. So we're already starting to try to save money for their education. But the fact is that we're very fortunate and privileged that our income in our household is such that we're able to afford to save money at this early time. But I think there are a lot of families that are struggling to put together a few dollars every month, and this initiative would help those families.

The thing I like the most about the member's bill is that it targets the available assistance that the government may have to support and encourage people to save for their children's post-secondary education to the families that really need it: the low- and middle-income families. So I think that's something the member should be commended for. I want to congratulate him for the good work that he provides on behalf of his constituents and the private member's bills that he brings forward and encourage all members of this House to support this very important initiative.

The Deputy Speaker: You're allowed to use the balance of your caucus's time plus your two minutes for wrap-up. Is that your intention?

Mr Hastings: Yes. I'd like to comment on and appreciate the comments from the members for Hamilton Mountain, Wellington-Waterloo, Durham and Lambton-Kent-Middlesex. I think they spoke practically about the merits of this proposition.

Yesterday I had the great opportunity to meet a young lady by the name of Sasha, who is a constituent in Minister Flaherty's constituency of Whitby-Ajax. She's about 23 years of age. She has an eight-month-old little girl. She's going to school. She's trying to complete a program; I didn't exactly get it, but I think it's in business, accounting. She is already saving $10 a month for Rianna, her little girl. I thought that was the most practical application, the most specific way in which we as legislators can affect the lives of people beyond this place.

I thank the member for Trinity-Spadina for his remarks. However, I have to radically depart from my comments. I think if he saw that young lady -- and I've met other young ladies and gentlemen who are doing their best to approach the challenges of the 21st century. There are specific, practical means by which we as legislators can help these people, because they aspire for their families, for their children. To me, this is one of the effective ways of empowering individuals and families, rather than simply relying on the state for financial assistance. It has to be an effective two-way partnership.

Unfortunately, the member for Trinity-Spadina persists in the old ideological mantra that the only way to save for one's education is the OSAP approach. That's fine, but it does debt-load people coming out of programs who sometimes do not have jobs.

I think the other practical dimension of this proposal is that it will allow education planners to track where the dollars are going in the programs that are required for the 21st century. In that spirit, I hope every member in this House, including the member for Trinity-Spadina, would reconsider and rethink about the people who are now two, three years old and are coming. It doesn't help me, but I believe it's incumbent that we try to help future generations, and this bill, the Saving for Our Children's Future Act, is one of the most practical and effective on-the-ground ways of doing so.

The Deputy Speaker: This completes the time allocated for debate. The question will be put following the second ballot item.

MINISTERIAL TRAVEL

ACCOUNTABILITY ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR L'OBLIGATION

DE RENDRE COMPTE

DES VOYAGES MINISTÉRIELS

Mr Bartolucci moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 2,

An Act respecting Accountability for Ministerial Travel / Projet de loi 2, Loi concernant l'obligation de rendre compte des voyages ministériels.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): The member has 10 minutes for his presentation.

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): First of all, I'd like to thank the member for Prince Edward-Hastings for changing the order of the private members' hour so that we can debate this today. I would also like to thank the House for unanimously supporting that change.

I'm going to divide my 10 minutes into three different sections: the why for the bill, the how of the bill and the what of the bill. I think all three are very important to the taxpayers of Ontario.

Let me start with the how of the bill. This is not a cute political ploy to try to embarrass the government or anything else like that. I think it's important that the history of the bill be explained to the people of Ontario. This bill has been introduced three times before. It was first introduced on September 29, 1998, as Bill 64. It was introduced a second time on April 26, 1999, as Bill 7. It was introduced a third time on May 16, 2000, as Bill 77. It is now being introduced for a fourth time.

In fairness to everyone in this House, this is the very first opportunity that the House has had to debate the legislation. It happens, though, that we're debating this legislation after a throne speech that used the word "accountability" eight times and that used the words "fiscal responsibility" four times. Certainly, in pre-throne-speech news coverage, one paper headline indicated that accountability would be the catch phrase for the Harris government over the course of the next few years.

I suggest to you that "accountability" should be our catch phrase always. That's why I introduced the legislation back in 1998. I saw that there was a need for this type of legislation. I say that because I don't know if the people of Ontario are aware that as individual members we make our expenditures public every year in a document reporting individual members' expenditures for a particular fiscal year. It is a matter of public record that is reported widely by the media, and I think that's very important.

It covers topics like travel between residence and Queen's Park, travel within the riding to do constituency business, assembly travel, family travel. It documents how many trips you take a year, the amount for your Toronto accommodation and total expenses.

Then it breaks it down into support staff expenditures: how much you pay for your support staff, your constituency office rent, your office operations, your communications, your global total, your long-distance charges and Assembly support total, for the grand total. I think this is a very healthy exercise, because we in this House all know we are using taxpayers' dollars, that at the very end of the day we are accountable to the taxpayers of Ontario, and we do that when we go to the polls, whenever an election is held, usually every four years.

I think it's extremely important that this accountability and this fiscally responsible approach that we want to use must be made public. It must be open, it must be transparent in all aspects of government business. That's why I introduce this bill today, the first time it's going to be debated but for the fourth time.

Colleagues, what will this bill do? Well, there will be accountability for ministerial travel. Let me explain to you what that means. More importantly, though, it's important for the people of Ontario to understand what that means. Any member of the executive council of Ontario who travels to areas outside Ontario on government business shall, within 60 days of returning from his or her travels, submit the information which is set out -- and I'll read this later. That person is to submit it to the Legislative Assembly if the Assembly is sitting or, if the Assembly is not sitting, which happens frequently in this place, to the Clerk of the Assembly.

What type of information do we think working families in Ontario should have about ministerial travel? We think a written

summary of the purpose of the travel and of any accomplishments resulting from the travel, including a listing of the benefits in terms of tangible investment and employment opportunities that the travel will bring to Ontario.

Let me suggest to you that I am not opposed to travelling outside this province. In fact, I encourage it. I don't ever want to build a wall around Ontario. But I believe it has to be meaningful travel, and it has to ensure that Ontarians get the best bang for the buck they are spending. It is imperative that this be a transparent process. We think a detailed statement of all expenses incurred by the member, as well as by any staff accompanying the member, should be published.

Certainly a minister is going to bring staff and experts with him. There's nothing wrong with that. It is important, though, that the taxpayers of Ontario understand what the cost is. We think it's important that a listing of individuals and organizations contacted, and with whom meetings were held, should be published as well.

Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South): Same as when David Peterson was the leader.

Mr Bartolucci: I hear a little heckling about previous governments from a person I have a lot of respect for. I don't care about previous governments. Pass this into law and we can look at the present, we can look to the future and we can ensure that this information, which belongs to the taxpayers of Ontario, is put in effect.

Past governments of all political stripes can be held accountable. So don't say it was the Liberals or the New Democrats or the Tories or anybody else; it was all past governments. Let's rectify that shortcoming with positive legislation so that progressive legislation will be the order of the day for the government of the day and for future governments.

I don't think it's asking too much for ministers, by example, to be accountable to the people of Ontario for their fiscal responsibility. In fact I think it is imperative that that happen. If I thought this was frivolous legislation, I certainly would not have introduced it in this House, because I like to bring serious legislation to this House.

I suggest to you that if you want public institutions to be held accountable, there is no more public institution than the Legislative Assembly of Ontario, this provincial Parliament. We, the elected people of Ontario at the provincial level, have a duty, a responsibility to be accountable in a very fiscal way, and as ministers and as the executive council, I ask you to take the lead.

Mr Garfield Dunlop (Simcoe North): I'm please to rise today and speak to the member for Sudbury's private member's bill,

An Act respecting accountability for ministerial travel.

In the last session, I had the pleasure of supporting the member's private member's bill on protection of children from prostitution, and I commend him for both his private member's bills. I also want to welcome here this morning our colleague from Parry Sound-Muskoka, Norm Miller. It's his first morning of private members' business.

Our government believes we should be accountable to the people who elect us, and that is why during the throne speech the government chose accountability as one of the three priorities on the challenges we face in the 21st century. I believe that the government does not own the money. It is the people's money, and that should never be forgotten. The hard-working families of our province expect and deserve that their tax dollars will always be spent in an accountable and efficient manner.

I think Her Honour said it best in last week's throne speech: "Accountability is required, not just of Ontario's government, but of all governments and indeed of all institutions funded by taxpayers.

"Government is the servant of the people, not master. Citizens are more than `customers' or `clients'; the entire public sector belongs to them. Citizens are entitled to transparency in the operation of public institutions, including openness about how they spend and reporting of their performance and results."

As a government we have introduced a number of measures aimed at improving accountability in the manner in which government operates. First of all, in education we have introduced a fair funding model for education that allows everyone to see where money is being spent in our system, and measures that protect classroom spending.

In last week's throne speech a number of additional accountability measures were introduced to make sure that monies are spent properly. In fact the phrases "accountability" and "fiscal responsibility," referred to by Mr Bartolucci, were used over 15 times in the throne speech. Because our government believes in accountability and because I believe in accountability, I will be supporting the private member's bill.

In fact, I think it is long overdue. I kind of wish the member for Sudbury had been here a few years ago. Although I am relatively to this House, compared to members like the members for Davenport and York South-Weston, when this bill came up, I was talking to a good friend of mine, Mr Runciman, the member for Leeds-Grenville, about a wonderful four-star tour the provincial Liberals took when they were on this side of the fence. I think we should bring this to their attention, because it adds to the need for accountability.

In November 1989, Premier Peterson led a group of politicians and business people on a trade mission to Italy. The business people paid for their trips, while the Premier, 13 Liberal MPPs and 12 staff members went along for the ride. The Liberal MPPs' tab was picked up by the people of this province. Included among those who went along for the ride were the member for York South-Weston, the member for Davenport and someone called Greg Sorbara, the Liberal candidate for Vaughan-King-Aurora.

I understand that travelling is necessary to build trade and cultural relations, but what is also important is being accountable. That is why I was shocked that the cost of the pasta tour was approximately $310,000. About half of this total was spent on hotel, food, travel and entertainment bills for the Premier and his immediate 25-member entourage of ministers, backbenchers and staff.

The hotel suite of the Premier of the time, Mr Peterson, was $1,000 a night. To give you an idea of how much this is, I called the Royal York this morning and asked how much a night in the most expensive hotel suite they have costs, and it is $339. That's in 2001 dollars and includes breakfast for two. I did a bit of research and found that during the trip the Petersons and friends stayed at the Principe Di Savoia, which the Penguin Guide to Italy calls "properly luxurious." It says it offers "peace, luxury and efficient staff." The night manager said, "We're a five-star hotel by the train station, one of the best in all Milan and in all of Italy."

The purpose of my bringing out this example is exactly what Mr Bartolucci is saying. It has gone on in the past. There's no question that probably in each party there have been cases of abuse. But the fact of the matter is, I think we have to be accountable, and I have no problem with some kind of record being kept of each trip. I know that's the feeling of this House.

A number of other people want to speak to this. I appreciate the time today, and I'll turn it over to them.

Mrs Sandra Pupatello (Windsor West): I'm very happy to stand and speak in support of my colleague Mr Bartolucci's bill on ministerial accountability.

It is of interest to hear those who choose to speak on behalf of the government that ultimately they too will be supportive of this bill. What it means essentially is that they agree with us that this government has to be accountable for its actions. This government, all of a sudden, is on this plane of greater accountability for Ontario, as though accountability for the rest of us was never there before. They intend to bring in various accountability measures for the government, for the broader public sector, for school boards, for hospitals -- all laudable goals.

We'll ask these members of the broader public sector today, if they feel accountable, who they report to when a hospital budget today has to be submitted to the Ministry of Health for approval, when a school board can't get their own budgets being submitted to the Ministry of Education approved in a timely fashion, and yet we ask the government why they would put further measures on these broader public sector groups when they can't even deal with the rules they have in place now or the so-called guidelines they have now.

Mrs Marland: Sandra, we're supporting the bill.

Mrs Pupatello: The former minister for children wants to stand and quip in the House. I encourage her to stand up and speak to this bill. This former minister for children should be responsible for her actions as a minister for children.

Mrs Marland: I am. I went out of the province once.

Mrs Pupatello: I suggest it be on the report card of how children are doing today. How are they doing in our schools today? Coming from Windsor, this is a very good question to ask today. This is the government that brought in a funding formula that is totally unworkable, completely inflexible and is the root cause of all the chaos that exists in our schools today: why we have strikes, why we have contracts being settled for a year at a time and that's it, when they used to settled for a minimum of three years. We will see chaos in one centre after another from now until, at minimum, the next election.

But I want to bring to attention the wonderful question my colleague from Sarnia asked the new Minister of Finance in the House yesterday: "Why would you ask all of Ontario to tighten up, to be accountable, to watch spending, to cap spending," when we look at the numbers from the Office of the Premier? In 1995-96 the total expenses out of that office were $2.1 million. And what are they in the latest round of figures, for the year 2000-01? They're up to $3.2 million. That should make all of us gasp.

What were the salaries and wages for the office of the Premier in 1995-96? They were $1.4 million. This was Mike Harris the big tax cut fighter, let's not forget -- tighten the seat belts. Do you know what they were for the office of the Premier in salary and wages in the year 2000-01? They were $2.3 million. That's the sampling.

As best put by my colleague Mrs Di Cocco from Sarnia, there's one rule for Harris and another rule for the rest of us in Ontario. That's something we're not going to abide. We think there should be accountability in every office of government. We're going to start at the head of that, and that is the office of the Premier.

Ms Shelley Martel (Nickel Belt): I'm pleased to participate in the debate this morning. We will be supporting Bill 2, put forward by the member for Sudbury, and we will be pleased to do so.

I want to make a couple of comments with respect to the bill. First, I should say I was a little bit surprised by the member for Simcoe North's raising the issue of the expenses of previous governments. Before this debate ends this morning, I'm going to wonder whether or not someone in here is going to raise the issue of the Premier's expenses to travel to the Olympics.

I think Al Palladini was also with him at the same time. I don't know who else accompanied the Premier. I'm sure there were a few more staff people. Maybe there were a few more ministers as well. I didn't follow it all that closely because I thought it was probably legitimate for the Premier to be there, given that Toronto is making a bid for the Olympics. But if we looked at those expenses, they would probably be very high too. I suspect it would probably be pretty unfair to make a comparison between a hotel in Ontario and a hotel in Australia, especially during the Olympics.

I'm not trying to defend David Peterson in terms of what he did, or trying to defend the Premier. I do want to put on the record that I know it was expensive to travel and it was expensive --

Mrs Marland: Not $1,000 a night for a hotel.

Ms Martel: Let me finish, Mrs Marland. I'm going to put this on the record. When I was minister and travelled to a dimensional stone conference in Verona, the cheapest nights we could find in a hotel -- believe me, I had my staff work with Ontario's attaché to find the cheapest -- was C$400 and that was in 1992.

I'm not trying to defend anyone in terms of expenses. Maybe David Peterson and entourage didn't look for the cheapest. Maybe the Premier of this province didn't look for the cheapest when he was in Australia either. But having been in that boat myself and having been very conscious of trying to find the cheapest price, because I sure didn't want it to come back to bite me, there was a huge discrepancy and difference in prices, and that was just the fact.

Having said that, I'm glad to see the government is going to support this bill, because it would have sent a very strange message to the public if the government were to have come here today and said they weren't interested in accountability. If the government had not supported this bill, it probably would have made the public think the government and its ministers had something to hide.

I'm sure that while the Premier is out trying to promote the throne speech across Ontario instead of being here in the Legislature, the government wouldn't want that message delivered when it's trying to do everything it can to deliver a message that it is accountable. That is allegedly one of the three tenets the throne speech is based upon.

We've heard from two different members that the throne speech mentioned the word "accountability"; someone said eight times and someone said 15. I don't know. I didn't go back to count. It doesn't really matter to me that much to go back and give an accurate reflection. But it was mentioned rather routinely by Her Honour and it has subsequently been mentioned rather routinely by the ministers as they've been getting up to answer questions in question period since the throne speech was debated.

So there's no doubt that as we continue another debate, the speech writers for the government members are going to throw in that word as many times as they can, and we should just get used to that right now.

It would have been rather bizarre, I think, for the government to come here and say, "We want accountability. We expect it of our transfer partners. Not only do we expect it, but we demand it of our transfer partners. We're going to ensure the Provincial Auditor has an opportunity to actually go and look at the books of our MUSH partners," and then at the same time come and say, "But we will not have accountability, we will not have public disclosure, we will not have a reckoning of ministerial travel and those costs of taxpayers' dollars of people who travel outside the province," assuming they're on business for the people of Ontario.

I think it would be a good thing to take this a step further. If this bill actually goes to committee, I would make the following recommendation to the minister: it's important not only to be accountable and to disclose to the taxpayers of the province the cost of travel by ministers outside Ontario; frankly, I think we should have a very clear disclosure of that travel within Ontario too.

I say that because all of us know, because we all have to do our own travel claims, that there is a very clear line item that is disclosed to the public, rightly so, of MPP travel between Queen's Park and our ridings. That is very clearly disclosed, whether you drive or whether you fly etc, and if you fly, all of the other associated expenses that go with that. Very clearly in our expenses as well there is a clear disclosure of travel within the riding.

As you drive around by car, and for some of our northern colleagues, as you fly around by plane, because that's how big how their ridings are, there's a clear disclosure of that cost as well. So our constituents know how much it's costing us to try to do our job. If the constituents don't like it, we're surely going to hear about it.

It's the same principle for ministers as well, because ministers also have to disclose publicly their costs of travel in their own ridings, presumably when they're working as MPPs, and their costs, in their other role as MPPs, to travel from their ridings to here at Queen's Park. But there is no direct line item that reflects the costs of ministers' travels throughout the province. That gets absorbed in the overall global budget of each ministry. I think there's something wrong with that.

I think most travel taken by ministers in the province is quite legitimate. I feel quite confident that is true. But I think the public has a right to know what that cost is. If the government or government minister were not prepared to really disclose that, it would give the public a perception that something was wrong. I don't think that at the same time as the government's promoting accountability, they want that perception to come back and hit them.

I would suggest we amend the bill, if it gets to committee -- I make the suggestion to the member -- so that we disclose travel of ministers within the province too. You could do the same as is in the bill: have accountability in terms of what has to be reported on; for example, whom the minister met with, what the purpose was, what the announcement might have been etc, so that that's all public knowledge. I think that there is a fair amount of taxpayers' dollars wrapped up in that kind of travel that is never disclosed in a clear fashion because it remains hidden under the global budget of the minister. It's time we changed that. I'll give you an example why.

Two years ago, when our expenses were reported, a member of the media made a rather interesting comparison of travel. This particular member of the media compared the travel for our leader between Queen's Park and his riding to Dave Johnson and his travel as MPP between Queen's Park and his riding. Speaker, you would know that Dave Johnson was close enough to take the TTC from his riding to Queen's Park. So clearly I didn't expect, you wouldn't have expected, and no one would have expected that Dave Johnson would have had a very large claim in terms of his travel between the riding and Queen's Park, and indeed the claim wasn't very high.

Most reasonable people would have expected that the leader of our party, whose riding is the farthest away from this place, where it takes two planes to get to, would have had a slightly larger expense claim for travel than Dave Johnson. Of course, that's the case.

The member of the media, though, never thought about, what was Dave Johnson's travel as minister? Shouldn't we have that disclosed too? Then, perhaps the comparison would have made a bit more sense, would have been a bit more legitimate, would have probably got on the record costs that were a bit more reasonable, because I assume that Dave did travel when he was Minister of Education. I would have encouraged him to do that, like I encourage other ministers to get outside of Queen's Park and get out to the rest of the province to see what's happening.

Based on that experience, I really do think it's time that we had that type of disclosure too. I don't think there's anything unfair about requesting it, because it's already covered within the global budget of the minister. What I think we should do is clearly delineate it, though, allow it to stand as a separate line item that is also included in our expenses as they are outlined to the public when our MPP travel is disclosed.

I don't know what the member from Sudbury thinks about that. I don't know what the government thinks about that. It seems to me, though, if we're talking about ministerial travel generally, whether it's outside the province or inside the province, there should be a way for the public to know what that is.

I say again that I'm pleased to see that the government members are supporting it. If the member can actually get it into committee and it's considered, I just ask them to consider expanding it as well so we cover both kinds of travel and so it's very clear to the public what those costs were, for what purpose, whom the minister met with, and what was the outcome of all of that travel.

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): I rise today in support of Bill 2, the Ministerial Travel Accountability Act, and I want to thank my colleagues for sharing their time with me.

There are several levels of planning and accountability already in place for ministerial travel which we should inform the public about. Ministerial travel is also reflected in the business plans of the ministries and is subject to a number of accountability mechanisms. These include (1) reporting under the public accounts process; (2) review by the Provincial Auditor and again by the public accounts committee of this Legislature; (3) required government approval of all missions abroad.

Ministry business plans reflect the strategic directions of the government to further Ontario's goals for job creation and a competitive economy. This may include advancing Ontario's international objectives, which can involve international travel.

As you know, all ministries are involved in a rigorous business planning and review cycle, which determines their activities, how they spend taxpayers' dollars and how they achieve set performance measures. Business plans are developed by ministries and approved by cabinet. They are further reviewed by Management Board of Cabinet to ensure that they support the objectives of this government. These business plans are easily available to all Ontarians in hard-copy form from ministries directly or their Web sites.

In addition, the public accounts of Ontario, which are published annually by the Ministry of Finance, provide a detailed accounting of how each tax dollar is spent across the government on a ministry-by-ministry basis. This public accounting is further scrutinized by a review by the Provincial Auditor. In his annual report, the auditor examines the use of taxpayers' dollars and highlights inappropriate use. The auditor's disclosures are all public and receive a great deal of media attention, as we saw after the release of the auditor's annual report late last year.

We, as the Legislative Assembly, also closely monitor Ontario's public accounts. As you know, all parties are represented on the public accounts committee, which is a standing committee of this Legislature. The terms of reference for the public accounts committee are as follows. As per standing order 106(g), the standing committee on public accounts, in addition to any matter that may be referred by the order of the House, is empowered to review and report to the House "its observations, opinions and recommendations on the report of the Provincial Auditor and the public accounts, which documents shall be deemed to have been permanently referred to the committee as they become available."

The combination of mechanisms that have been discussed by those of us on the government benches are put in place to make our government dealing as open to the public as possible.

There's one other point I feel I should bring to the attention of this House. Quite simply, it is important for the people of Ontario to be represented abroad at a certain level. Dignitaries from other countries expect to meet with senior-level officials visiting their countries. Sending members of our cabinet to meet with officials abroad sends a message that Ontario takes what they have to say seriously and that we are there to do business. These types of contacts are valued highly by other countries, just as we value and appreciate when they send high-level officials to meet with us.

I was very fortunate and privileged to meet with the Prime Minister of Italy a month or so back in terms of dealing with his mission to Canada. I think he was here for the G7 and met our Prime Minister in Ottawa, and fortunately he was able to come to Toronto to visit with members of the Italian community.

These types of contacts, as I say, are valued by other countries. However, as my colleagues have also said in dealing with this bill, it's dealing with ministerial accountability, and I observe it's dealing with ministerial accountability after the fact in terms of reporting within 60 days of the particular visit.

Mr Bartolucci, the member from Sudbury, has put out his position, and I've stated mine.

Mr Michael Bryant (St Paul's): The member from Sudbury, Rick Bartolucci, has to be commended for giving us all an opportunity to talk about the issue of accountability generally but also in the context of providing a very practical tool for accountability. We are not talking about accountability in the abstract here; we are applying it to ministerial travel, and members of this House have already expressed their support for it. But let's all realize, at the same time, that the member from Sudbury is leading a charge here on behalf of accountability, and this has to be just the very first step because we know how little accountability we have here.

While I would make the case that there's less accountability under this government than previous governments, the problem with that argument, of course, is it leads to both sides saying, "You did it in the past," and then we say, "You did it more in the past." We've heard from the member from Sudbury, "Let's forget about the past." Yes, let's forget about the past for the moment, because if we let tradition and the traditions of our parliamentary system drive accountability, then we are really practising the democracy of the dead; we are practising democracy under 1867 rules which just don't apply in the year 2001.

We found ourselves, quite honestly, when we took a step back, it was easy for me and for the rookie MPPs, when we first came here, to see how little accountability there is. We were amazed. We spend hundreds of hours in opposition, preparing for and speaking to debates, preparing amendments only to have them never heard, attempting to hold the government to account in question period and not getting answers. Of course we find out that they call it "question period" for a reason. It's not answer period; it's question period.

We found pretty quickly that, really, one of the last effective means of holding a government to account is through nothing less than an undemocratic means of accountability, the judiciary. That's one way to hold government to check, but that is clearly an undemocratic way of holding the government to check -- a necessary way. You have to have a separation between the judiciary and government, but how do we hold government to check? And then it gets worse.

We know the centre becomes tyrannical. No matter what, the government, the first minister's office starts controlling everything and the fight for accountability by both government members and opposition members becomes a losing battle. Today we have an opportunity to fight back in that battle, because you can't argue with legislation. Legislation that requires accountability will get accountability.

You can be sure that the voters of your constituency, and I know the voters in my constituency, expect MPPs to hold the government to account and aren't satisfied when told that somebody who works in the First Minister's office is going to deny that because politically it would be harmful to the government.

Well, the government is supposed to be the people's government, so the people should be able to get access to this information. But sometimes we just shrug our shoulders and tell our constituents and get used to it and say, "Well, look, that's just broken politics in this dead democracy that we're in. That's just the way it is. It's part of the game."

Every once in a while you get a glimmer of a change. Here's a glimmer today; here's an opportunity. I'm going on about this opportunity because we all know what's going to happen next. We need the members to come in here and support the member for Sudbury's bill. But we also need to get it to the committee of choice of the member and we need the bill to move forward. This is the fourth time that the member has introduced it. If we are all in agreement here that it should pass, then who exactly should stop it from moving forward? Who?

It must not be somebody who is held accountable to this House and to the people of Ontario. All of this lack of accountability degrades the entire political process. Everybody loses confidence in government and our Legislature if we feel we can't get the answers, if they're somehow hidden. This is one means in which we can get some accountability, and then the people can decide whether or not the expenses made for travel were good or bad. They're not always going to be bad; we know that. They're not always going to be good; we know that too.

So this is our opportunity to hold the tyrannical centre to account. This is our opportunity to fight back against the democracy of the dead. I congratulate the member for Sudbury and all the members in this House who support this bill. Rick Bartolucci, you've done a great thing today.

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): I also want to say that I think this is a timely piece of business that we discuss here this morning, given, as my colleague from Sudbury east said earlier, this government's, in the speech from the throne and in speeches they have made subsequently out there, talking about accountability, but we know from the last five or six years what they mean by that. They mean that if things go well and there are successes, they're accountable, they're responsible; but if they go wrong and things start to fall apart, then somebody else has to be accountable and somebody else is responsible.

I think it's important that from time to time we get an opportunity to challenge the government on where they're spending their money and how they're spending their money and this whole issue of getting value for dollar -- particularly this government, and I think the member from Sudbury has done a valuable service to this place by putting this piece of business on the table this morning.

I'd like to, in the short few minutes I have, focus on just a couple of things. You've heard here already the kind of travel that has happened under the leadership of this government, the flying here and flying there and the issue of whether we get value for dollar for that or not, and others will speak to it. I want to focus for just a second on what they're not doing when they're meeting with all the dignitaries around the world and wining and dining and playing golf and having a good time.

In this province, everybody who is connected in any serious or significant way with the economy knows now that we're moving into some pretty challenging times. The government has benefited from a tremendously positive, driving economy out of the US but has done nothing over the last five or six years to restructure the domestic economy of the province so that we might be in a better position to sustain a downturn in the US economy, to actually hook us into other economies or to make sure that trading between jurisdictions in the province that we govern in fact is healthy, and that each

section of the province is taking advantage of the money that was flowing, due to the good economy in the US, so that we might stabilize the local economy and make it sustainable over the long term: a place like the area I come from, northern Ontario, that has not done well under the present regime, and the economy that has changed so dramatically and stands to probably suffer even more with the downturn in the economy because there has been no significant investment in that part of the province over the last five or six years.

In fact, I would suggest that's probably what's happening in rural Ontario as well. You heard a proposal by this government for rural Ontario. If you look at it, it's a sham; it's a shell. There's nothing there, nothing of any substance. Northern Ontario doesn't even have a strategy in place by this government, and I worry about that.

The other thing I wanted to touch on briefly in the few seconds I have left is the question my colleague from Sudbury east raised about in-province travel of ministers. I'd like to know how much travel this government, by ministers, has done in relation to the very successful fundraisers they've been having across this province over the last five or six years. Every time I turn around, they're having another fundraiser in Sault Ste Marie, and there are another half-dozen ministers coming up, organizing, yes, meetings to which they can go to justify the travel. But I would like to like to know how much of that is tied directly into actually participating in those fundraising events.

Mr David Tilson (Dufferin-Peel-Wellington-Grey): I'd like to speak to Bill 2, which is the Ministerial Travel Accountability Act. Almost all members of the House have referred to the item in the throne speech dealing with accountability and how it's needed in this province. Many of our transfer partners, it has been submitted by this government, need to be more accountable, and I think it's most timely that Mr Bartolucci brings this bill forward to the House. I would hope that all members of the House will support the bill.

Some members have talked about some of the access to this information that already exists. I take the member for Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford, who spoke of business plans and public accounts committees and provincial auditors and estimates, those sorts of things. There really isn't too much access to this information. So I think he's right in bringing this forward, other than the brown envelopes that are received from time to time or applications that are made under the freedom-of-information legislation.

It's not as if there is no information available; it is available. Mr Bartolucci is suggesting, of course, that this information be filed with the Legislative Assembly, if sitting, and if not sitting, be filed with the Clerk, who in turn would put it into the Ontario Gazette. That probably is a better process, because the other process is freedom of information. When the NDP were in office, I used to have all kinds of freedom-of-information applications. Some ministries were very good; some were terrible. Sometimes you never heard from them and you had to have an appeal. So it's OK, but really we need to improve on the process.

My friend from Simcoe North talked about the David Peterson junket on which almost everyone of Italian descent on the government side went to Italy, presumably to appease the Patti Starr scandal that arose. Comments could be made about the Bob Rae government. Comments can be made about this government. The point is that we need to be more accountable, no matter who is in office. I accordingly support the bill.

He does go a little further, though. He talks in subsection (2) about providing "a written

summary of the purpose of the travel and of any accomplishments resulting from the travel, including a listing of the benefits in terms of tangible investments and employment opportunities that the travel will bring to Ontario." I raise the question -- it may be appropriate that that be dealt with in another forum, a committee or some other forum -- whether or not that additional information is too restrictive.

Some of these travel items by ministers aren't strictly done for economic purposes. It may be done for other purposes. I happen to be in the Ministry of the Attorney General. It may be appropriate that the Attorney General may travel outside the province to have discussions on matters that have nothing to do with the economy; it may be that particular minister. It may be that some of these tours -- and some of them are tours, very legitimate tours -- may be confidential. It may be that for the people who are speaking from other governments the conversations may be confidential.

I do have a hesitation on some of the items from

section 2, specifically that it's too restrictive on the government of the day. But certainly the philosophy that ministers need to be more accountable on the expenses that are being paid, that's a good philosophy. If we're saying to school boards, hospitals and other transfer sources that we're providing transfer payments to, "You need to be more accountable," I'm sure the member will agree that what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and that's a fair comment.

Accordingly, I would hope that all members of the House would support this bill. But I do draw it to the member's attention, and perhaps in the few minutes he'll have left he will comment on whether or not it's too restrictive as far as

section 2 is concerned.

Ms Caroline Di Cocco (Sarnia-Lambton): I am pleased to speak on this bill brought forward by Rick Bartolucci, the member from Sudbury, because this bill clearly shows the Liberal caucus believes in true accountability by those and from those who serve in public office. From what I have heard, and for the past six years, the provincial government of the day, the Harris Tories, has not had the backbone to bring in a bill that is as clear as this when it comes to accountability, simple accountability on members of the executive council of Ontario to submit to the Legislative Assembly or to the Clerk of the assembly information relating to travel outside of this province.

To me, this is not something that is complex. I don't understand the fact that a government that is moving forward, that has been here for six years, has not had that fortitude. It has had a lot of hammers with a lot of other sectors. I believe the member from Dufferin-Peel-Wellington mentioned that the transfer partners need to be accountable. This is the proof of the pudding, because this bill is about true accountability by those who are on the executive council.

If true accountability is what you want -- and I'm glad to hear you're going to support the bill, but I'm certainly going to watch carefully to see if this bill is going to see the light of day in committee, because that will be proof if you really, truly believe in accountability and what it stands for.

To me, true accountability means transparency for how and why ministers are spending public dollars in any way, particularly when they are travelling and particularly when they're going outside the province. To me, the purpose of why they're travelling outside the province must reflect doing business for the province of Ontario. I don't mean business in the sense of economic business, I mean business in the context of government business.

One of the things I have watched closely is how often this government berates every ministry and sectors across this province for overspending. "We must cut." This is the "Cut, cut, cut" government. Yet when I did a small check to find out what the cost was for running the cabinet offices in 1995, I found that cost in 1995 was $7,858,149.

I figured, "Well, they've been cutting the Ministry of the Environment by 40%." I went to look because I was expecting to see how much you had cut it and how much you had become more effective, because after all your mantra is, "Smaller government," your mantra is, "Less government, less expensive government." That's why you do everything you do: less expensive government.

What did I find? I found that you had actually more than doubled the cost of cabinet offices, which astounded me. That is irresponsible. There is no other sector in this province that could justify that kind of increase.

You are just like all of the others that you point your fingers at. You have a government that's saying, "Everybody must be accountable. Everybody has got to spend less because we're a tough government and we have to make sure that these ministries can't spend like they used to in the past." What do you do for yourselves? You more than double cabinet offices, the operating costs of cabinet offices. I'd like to see which hospital in this province has doubled its costs. I'd like to see which other administration in this province has doubled its costs. But the Harris Conservatives more than doubled their costs.

You certainly used the hammer for everybody else, but for yourselves you have another rule --

Mrs Leona Dombrowsky (Hastings-Frontenac-Lennox and Addington): A double standard.

Ms Di Cocco: -- a totally double standard. Those figures are your figures, they're not mine.

In my estimation, this bill reflects what the clear position is of Dalton McGuinty and the Liberal caucus about open, honest government. I am appalled at hearing the members from the Harris government consistently pointing fingers to everyone else. You have to clean up your own act first before you try to point fingers at others. I will be watching carefully to see if you mean anything about accountability when we move this bill forward and when it goes to committee and when it comes back to the House for third reading.

Mr Bartolucci: I'd like to thank all the members on both sides of the House who have spoken in support of the bill. I think the members who have offered some constructive suggestions -- for example, the member for Dufferin-Peel -- certainly bring some good information that must be considered.

I look forward to the passage of this bill at second reading, and then I look forward to a full, rigorous debate with meaningful amendments. I believe it is wrong for us and it is a disservice to the taxpayers of Ontario to look back and throw stones. I believe we must move forward today with establishing meaningful legislation.

The purpose of the debate is to ensure that there are amendments that will make the bill even stronger. It is, though, the foundation from which I hope strong legislation will be put in place.

At this time, I'd like to thank my intern, Rachel Sheer, for the enormous work she has put in, in anticipation that this bill will be referred to committee for debate. I want to publicly thank her. She personifies excellence. Thank you very much, Rachel.

I would suggest that all of us, when the time comes, support the legislation. I will be asking that it go to the general government committee, and I would ask the Chair of general government to call the bill quickly. Our order table is pretty free, pretty open. It is the appropriate time to make this type of legislation, enshrine it in law for the present government and for future governments.

The Deputy Speaker: This completes the time allocated for debate on this ballot item.

SAVING FOR OUR CHILDREN'S

FUTURE ACT (INCOME TAX

AMENDMENT), 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR L'ÉPARGNE

EN PRÉVISION DE L'AVENIR

DE NOS ENFANTS (MODIFICATION DE LA

LOI DE L'IMPÔT SUR LE REVENU)

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): We will now deal with ballot item number 1. Mr Hastings has moved second reading of Bill 4,

An Act to amend the Income Tax Act to provide a tax credit for contributions to registered education savings plans. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All in favour will say "aye."

All opposed will say "nay."

In my opinion, the ayes have it.

MINISTERIAL TRAVEL

ACCOUNTABILITY ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR L'OBLIGATION

DE RENDRE COMPTE

DES VOYAGES MINISTÉRIELS

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): We will now deal with ballot item number 2. Mr Bartolucci has moved second reading of Bill 2,

An Act respecting Accountability for Ministerial Travel. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All in favour will say "aye."

All opposed will say "nay."

In my opinion, the ayes have it.

Call in the members. This will be a five-minute bell. We will deal first with Mr Hastings's Bill 4.

The division bells rang from 1206 to 1211.

The Deputy Speaker: Order. Would members please take their seats.

SAVING FOR OUR CHILDREN'S

FUTURE ACT (INCOME TAX

AMENDMENT), 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR L'ÉPARGNE

EN PRÉVISION DE L'AVENIR

DE NOS ENFANTS (MODIFICATION DE LA

LOI DE L'IMPÔT SUR LE REVENU)

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): Mr Hastings has moved second reading of Bill 4,

An Act to amend the Income Tax Act to provide a tax credit for contributions to registered education savings plans. All in favour will stand and remain standing until their name is called.

Ayes

Agostino, Dominic

Arnott, Ted

Baird, John R.

Barrett, Toby

Bartolucci, Rick

Beaubien, Marcel

Bisson, Gilles

Bountrogianni, Marie

Boyer, Claudette

Bradley, James J.

Bryant, Michael

Caplan, David

Chudleigh, Ted

Churley, Marilyn

Clark, Brad

Cleary, John C.

Clement, Tony

Coburn, Brian

Colle, Mike

Cordiano, Joseph

Crozier, Bruce

Cunningham, Dianne

Curling, Alvin

Di Cocco, Caroline

Dombrowsky, Leona

Duncan, Dwight

Dunlop, Garfield

Ecker, Janet

Elliott, Brenda

Galt, Doug

Gilchrist, Steve

Gill, Raminder

Hardeman, Ernie

Hastings, John

Jackson, Cameron

Johns, Helen

Johnson, Bert

Klees, Frank

Kormos, Peter

Kwinter, Monte

Lalonde, Jean-Marc

Marchese, Rosario

Marland, Margaret

Martel, Shelley

Martin, Tony

Martiniuk, Gerry

Maves, Bart

Miller, Norm

Molinari, Tina R.

Munro, Julia

Mushinski, Marilyn

Newman, Dan

O'Toole, John

Ouellette, Jerry J.

Peters, Steve

Phillips, Gerry

Pupatello, Sandra

Ramsay, David

Runciman, Robert W.

Ruprecht, Tony

Sampson, Rob

Smitherman, George

Spina, Joseph

Stewart, R. Gary

Stockwell, Chris

Tascona, Joseph N.

Tilson, David

Tsubouchi, David H.

Turnbull, David

Wettlaufer, Wayne

Wilson, Jim

Witmer, Elizabeth

Wood, Bob

Young, David

Clerk of the House (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 74; the nays are 0.

The Deputy Speaker: I declare the motion carried.

Mr Hastings: I move that Bill 4 be directed to the standing committee on general government.

The Deputy Speaker: Mr Hastings has asked that this bill be referred to the standing committee on general government. Agreed? Agreed.

MINISTERIAL TRAVEL

ACCOUNTABILITY ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR L'OBLIGATION

DE RENDRE COMPTE

DES VOYAGES MINISTÉRIELS

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): Mr Bartolucci has moved second reading of Bill 2.

All those in favour will please stand and remain standing until their name is called.

Ayes

Agostino, Dominic

Baird, John R.

Barrett, Toby

Bartolucci, Rick

Beaubien, Marcel

Bisson, Gilles

Bountrogianni, Marie

Boyer, Claudette

Bradley, James J.

Bryant, Michael

Caplan, David

Chudleigh, Ted

Churley, Marilyn

Clark, Brad

Cleary, John C.

Clement, Tony

Coburn, Brian

Colle, Mike

Cordiano, Joseph

Crozier, Bruce

Cunningham, Dianne

Curling, Alvin

Di Cocco, Caroline

Dombrowsky, Leona

Duncan, Dwight

Dunlop, Garfield

Ecker, Janet

Elliott, Brenda

Galt, Doug

Gilchrist, Steve

Gill, Raminder

Hardeman, Ernie

Hastings, John

Jackson, Cameron

Johns, Helen

Johnson, Bert

Klees, Frank

Kormos, Peter

Kwinter, Monte

Lalonde, Jean-Marc

Marchese, Rosario

Marland, Margaret

Martel, Shelley

Martin, Tony

Martiniuk, Gerry

Maves, Bart

Miller, Norm

Molinari, Tina

Munro, Julia

Mushinski, Marilyn

Newman, Dan

O'Toole, John

Ouellette, Jerry J.

Peters, Steve

Phillips, Gerry

Pupatello, Sandra

Ramsay, David

Runciman, Robert W.

Ruprecht, Tony

Sampson, Rob

Smitherman, George

Spina, Joseph

Stewart, R. Gary

Stockwell, Chris

Tascona, Joseph N.

Tilson, David

Tsubouchi, David H.

Turnbull, David

Wettlaufer, Wayne

Wilson, Jim

Witmer, Elizabeth

Young, David

The Deputy Speaker: All those opposed will please stand and remain standing until their name is called.

Nays

Wood, Bob

Clerk of the House (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 72; the nays are 1.

The Deputy Speaker: I declare the motion carried.

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): I ask that this be referred to the standing committee on general government.

The Deputy Speaker: All those in favour of the bill being referred to the standing committee on general government will stand.

All those opposed will please stand.

A majority is not in favour of the bill being referred. Pursuant to standing order 96, the bill will be referred to the committee of the whole House.

All matters relating to private members' public business now being complete, this House stands adjourned until 1:30 of the clock this afternoon.

The House recessed from 1220 to 1330.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

COMMUNITY COLLEGES

Mrs Marie Bountrogianni (Hamilton Mountain): Bill 132 was introduced in April with no consultation, no prior warning, no discussion in the Legislature on a Friday when students were in exams or had already gone home for the summer. There was not even a line in the Blueprint on private universities.

Bill 132 was rammed through the Legislature with three days of public hearings. The only reassurance that was offered to students was the fact that a quality assurance board would be established to oversee the process, to monitor applications by private universities but also to oversee the implementation of applied degrees in colleges. A chair has finally been found for the board, but it still lacks membership.

The colleges in Ontario were promised the ability to offer applied degrees. They have set up their agreements, they have hired the additional staff required and they are prepared to move ahead. But they have yet to receive the green light to move ahead with these trial projects.

I have spoken to representatives of the college system: presidents, vice-presidents, students and their industry partners. This holding pattern is quickly becoming unsustainable. They cannot wait until August 30 to be given the go-ahead to offer an applied degree and be able to fill the program and offer a quality education.

Post-secondary education is not like a Jell-O mix, where you add water and stir. This government seems to believe they can introduce something like private institutions, new types of degrees and let it all sort itself out in the mix. This is our future, the future of our children. Our competitiveness and prosperity are in the balance. When can the colleges expect to know when they can offer these programs?

VOLUNTEERS

Mrs Julia Munro (York North): In recognition of International Year of the Volunteer and, in Canada, National Volunteer Week, I rise in the House today to thank and acknowledge all the volunteers across the province who devote their time and effort to volunteerism in their communities. I would also like to particularly thank the volunteers in my riding of York North who give so much of their time and energy to make our community a better place to live.

This week honours those who make a difference. Last night in my riding of York North, the township of King celebrated and recognized the commitment of volunteers who work hard to improve the quality of life for the residents of King. Many will tell you they volunteer to take on new challenges, to share knowledge and abilities, to feel good and build self-esteem and to have fun. I believe it is very important to recognize our volunteers, because they are key players in holding together the fabric of our communities.

HIGHWAY TOLLS

Mr Dominic Agostino (Hamilton East): Yesterday the Premier of Ontario outlined a proposal and idea for adding tolls to existing highways across the province. These highways have already been built and paid for by the taxpayers of Ontario.

Every day in my community of Hamilton, tens of thousands of people commute back and forth between Hamilton and Toronto on the QEW. This would mean a toll, a user fee, an additional payment for those people for highways they have already paid for.

We're not sure who to believe here, because this morning on Hamilton radio the Minister of Transportation, who represents Stoney Creek, wasn't quite as committed to toll roads on existing highways as the Premier. So is the Premier right? Is the Minister of Transportation right? Is this government going to go ahead with this silly idea of tolls on already built highways? It is an additional tax that you are imposing.

You've also committed in the past to ensure there is always an alternative. Does this mean that if this toll on the QEW goes ahead, the good people of Burlington and Oakville and who live out on Lakeshore Boulevard and in Mississauga will be imposed on with the additional traffic of the alternate road? Is Lakeshore Boulevard through those neighbourhoods of Oakville, Burlington and Mississauga going to pick up the additional traffic?

This government's got to come clean. Is it the position of the Minister of Transportation that he's opposed to tolls on existing highways, or is it the position of the Premier, who wants to tax and gouge Ontarians again with another toll, another tax for a road they have paid for already?

VOLUNTEERS

Mr Ernie Hardeman (Oxford): I'm pleased to rise and inform the House about an extremely successful event that took place in my riding. On Tuesday, April 24, the city of Woodstock had the pleasure of hosting Lieutenant Hilary M. Weston at a community volunteer summit. Her Honour helped celebrate National Volunteer Week, which runs from April 20 to 27. Her Honour spoke eloquently of volunteerism and youth in Ontario and presented special International Year of Volunteers plaques to the mayors of all the municipalities as well as student council representatives from the county's secondary schools.

The summit and volunteer week were a tremendous success because of the hard work of groups such as the Volunteer Network of Oxford County, which consists of 30 community agencies that utilize volunteers throughout Oxford county. The volunteer network works to enhance and promote volunteerism through organizing workshops, volunteer fairs and special events. While countless people work very hard organizing volunteer appreciation week, I'd like to specifically thank Kimble Sutherland of the United Way of Oxford; Terry McCartney, chair of the Volunteer Network of Oxford County; and Irene Priest of the VON.

As part of the community volunteer summit, I had the honour of leading a presentation on the Ontario's Promise initiative. During the presentation we had the pleasure of hearing from John Lessif, of McDonald's restaurants in Oxford county; Deb Landon, executive director of the Ingersoll Big Brothers/Big Sisters; Wendy Perry of the early years challenge fund; and Curt Harnett, three-time Olympic medallist and representative for the Sport Alliance of Ontario. All the speakers demonstrated the value and inspiration one attains from volunteering in their community.

FARM PRACTICES PROTECTION

Mr Steve Peters (Elgin-Middlesex-London): I rise today to call on this government to immediately introduce the much-promised and overdue agricultural operations act.

Nearly a year and a half ago the wheels were set in motion: two rounds of consultations, a promise to table the legislation last fall, and still we have seen nothing. The throne speech said provincial standards were necessary, but we were warned that they should not eliminate local responsibility. This is doublespeak for more downloading.

I am warning this government: don't you dare abdicate your responsibility to Ontarians.

This is what we can look forward to if the government continues to drag its feet. A farmer in west Perth is appealing an OMB decision to impose limits on the size of his farm. Why? The justice wisely argued that "the province has legislation governing normal farm practices that overrides municipal power." The ruling was that "no municipal bylaw may restrict a normal farming practice." The justice said there is no proof that randomly imposing caps on livestock units has any environmental benefit.

This scenario will be acted out time and again -- our judicial system will be clogged with appeals, unnecessarily dragging farmers into court -- until this government takes immediate action and shows strong leadership by tabling a fair agricultural operations act with the proper capital funding.

If this government wants a strong rural economy, it must ensure there is a strong agricultural engine to drive it. Table the legislation and start flowing the necessary improvement dollars now.

SUMMIT OF THE AMERICAS

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): This is a piece of that infamous fence in Quebec City that everybody is talking about, a base of that fence. Yes, I went to the wall, and although I did not engage in any violence I was tear-gassed along with many thousands of other peaceful protesters: grandmothers, young children, youths, workers, Canadians, Americans, Mexicans. Everyone of all stripes, colours and shapes joined together to send a message to governments across the Americas.

The message was that the people would not tolerate backroom trade deals that put corporate profit ahead of human rights, ahead of protecting the environment, ahead of protection for workers, ahead of social programs.

I was there to engage in peaceful protest, but let me tell you when I walked down to where the conference was taking place and saw that dreaded fence, I was infuriated, and so I went there. That fence is a symbolic barrier, a barrier that sees government shutting out the voices of the people.

For those who say that we elect a democratic government and that they therefore have the right to make those decisions, let me say this: you only have to look at the end of apartheid in South Africa and at the civil rights movement in America to see that it has been mass social movements by which, in spite of the actions of elected officials, the world has changed, and changed for the better. If it weren't for Rosa Parks standing up to those elected officials and the law, she might still be sitting at the back of that bus.

I say right on, and congratulations to the thousands and thousands of people who went to Quebec City to fight the tyranny and the absolute secrecy in which this is being done.

VOLUNTEERS

Mr Garfield Dunlop (Simcoe North): It is a pleasure once again to pay tribute to volunteer organizations in my riding of Simcoe North in this, the International Year of the Volunteer, and National Volunteer Week.

On Tuesday evening I was able to attend the banquet of Hospice Huronia. Over 60 people were recognized for their work in the Midland-Penetanguishene area and received Ontario Volunteer recognition pins. I thank president Bev Gerow and her volunteers who have made Huronia a better place to live.

Tomorrow I will be attending a volunteer appreciation luncheon at the Trillium Manor, a home for the aged and long-term care facility in Orillia. We will congratulate and thank the dozens of volunteer workers who give so much of their time in assisting the staff and families in making life more comfortable and caring for the residents of Trillium Manor. I appreciate the efforts put forward by administrator Sharon Turner and her staff in recognizing the value of volunteers.

On Saturday, over 60 OPP officers, auxiliary officers and board members of the Ontario Education Leadership Centre will gather to do a spring cleanup of the camp at Longford Mills. The Ontario Education Leadership Centre is home to the training facilities of the over 850 OPP auxiliary officers in the province. As well, the camp graduates over 2,000 young leaders for tomorrow. I thank Mr Terry Harkins, the leader of both the OELC and the OPP auxiliary, for organizing this event.

Again, in this, the International Year of the Volunteer, I appreciate the efforts put forth by all volunteers to make our province such a wonderful place to live, work and raise families.

HOUSE SITTINGS

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): How many people in this province know that the Ontario Legislature was not in session from the third week of December until the third week of April -- a full four months of empty chairs in our provincial Parliament. How many Ontarians know that in 1999 Premier Harris allowed the Legislature to sit for only 39 days, and that since the provincial election in June 1999 their elected representatives have been in the House only 124 days?

Elected representatives, to do their job appropriately, should be permitted to raise in the provincial Parliament the important issues of the day for the province and their own constituencies. Premier Harris has prevented the opposition from holding him accountable in the House by refusing to allow the Legislature to sit for any significant length of time.

Can you imagine the outrage and furor in Ottawa if the federal Liberal government had announced that the House of Commons would not come back in January, as it did, but in late April, as was the case with this Parliament? The Reform-Alliance hound dogs, the National Citizens' Coalition, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation and the Ottawa press gallery would be in a huge uproar, and cries of arrogance and dictatorship would abound.

The democratic system works best when elected representatives are debating, discussing and questioning in the legislative body to which they were elected when the head of the government and the ministers are present to be accountable to elected members and their constituents. The contempt of the Premier for this Legislative Assembly is so very apparent today.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Members' statements? Members' statements? The member for Sudbury.

GOVERNMENT TRAVEL EXPENDITURES

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): Today was an example of how responsible this government really is to the people of Ontario. Today this government had an opportunity to support meaningful legislation with regard to ministerial accountability when they travel. This is what this government did: this government chose to pass it on second reading and then bury it in committee of the whole. I suggest to you, the members on the government side, that you have done a disservice to the people of Ontario through your flagrant abuse of Parliamentary order.

I would suggest to you that you have to be accountable to the people of Ontario. You have to tell the people of Ontario how much money you are spending when you travel out of province. You have to tell the people of Ontario when this Premier travels out of the province or out of the county, who he's going with and how much money it's costing. We want to make sure that you, me and every Ontario taxpayer gets the best bang for the buck.

I'm telling you that by you burying this legislation deep in the holes of the committee of the whole, you will pay the price at the polls next time, because the working families of Ontario want accountability. Dalton McGuinty, the Ontario Liberals, believe in accountability to working families. You don't and you will pay the price.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Thank you very much. I'm afraid the time is up for statements. I did call it a couple of times, to the member. I also apologize to everybody. I understand that I should have just carried on and not had another member's statement. There shouldn't have been another one and I apologize for that. I'm sure Mrs Bartolucci is watching and thought it was great, but I'm afraid we did pass it and we can't continue on. I apologize, but I did call it a couple of times.

The member for Mississauga South.

Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South): I'm apologizing, Mr Speaker. I missed the rotation and I would ask for unanimous consent. It's not a political speech; it's about congratulating volunteers. I would ask for unanimous consent to deliver that statement.

The Speaker: Unanimous consent? Agreed.

VOLUNTEERS

Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South): I appreciate this opportunity, Mr Speaker, to acknowledge a very special designation, National Volunteer Week.

In Ontario we have over 2.9 million people who donate their time each year to some area in their community. Do we realize that if volunteers were paid the average service sector wage, volunteerism would be Canada's largest industry in terms of that salary paid? Whether it's driving a vulnerable senior to a medical appointment or sharing a few hours each week with a disadvantaged youth, the people of Ontario are dedicated to building a better tomorrow. It's the people of Ontario who are making that happen.

My constituents in Mississauga South are fine examples of this outstanding commitment to community. I am always proud and moved by the fact that so many are willing to work throughout our churches, hospitals, community centres, sports and arts programs, all of which truly make a difference. With the time I have today I cannot identify all the groups that contribute to our community such as the Boy Scouts, the Girl Guides, our local cable station volunteers like Rogers Cable 10, the Volunteer Centre of Peel, the hockey teams, the baseball leagues and countless others.

We are all indeed indebted to the generosity of these people with their personal time.

CONSIDERATION OF BILL 13

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I have a very important announcement. I beg to inform the House that pursuant to standing order 69(b), t