Volume XLI Thursday Province of Newfoundland FORTY-FIRSTGENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush !Preliminary Transcript] Number 26 3 May 1990

The House met at 2 : 00 p.m. MR. SPEAKE!~ (Lush) : Order, please! Before proceeding to Orders of the Day, on behalf of all hon.Members, I would like to extend a warm and cordial welcome to a very special visitor in the Speaker's Gallery. The distinguished gentleman was born at Grand Bank. He has had a very illustrious career, both academically and politically. Known to most Canadians as a consti·tutional expert, he is a former Senator of the House of Commons. It therefore gives me great pleasure to welcome today a Newfoundlander of outstanding repute and a distinguished and famous Can~dian, Dr. Eugene Forsey.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: Mr.Speaker with your Honour's permission and the consent of my learned friends, my Honourable friends opposite, I would like to just add a few IAJords to what you have said. Dr. Fors ey is a distinguished Canadian whose roots happen to be in Newfoundland, and that makes us perhaps all the more proud of his distinction as a Canadian. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER WELLS: But above all else he is a distinguished Canadian.

He is more than simply a distinguished Canadian, he is a distinguished Canadian constitutional scholar in the true sense of that war~. L.1 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI He is not trained in the la1.u -··· hE• has never been a constitutional lawyer.

HE! is a t1nue constitutional scholar and expert, who knows and understands not only the written word, but the co nv e ntio n s that go tog ether with the written word to make up our full Constitution in this country, and that is as important as being trained in the latAJ and bEd ng able to read it, and perhc:~ps more important, because it giVE!S one a better and more sympathetic understanding of the real situation. I believe he has knmun pe1nsonally, and had some dE!gr·ee of work with every Canadian Pr:ime Minister For about the last seventy-five years, or pretty close to that.

He has had some connection with them fo1n a very long time, and it is that kind of knowledge, that kind of connection and background and expertise, that makes hirn · thE! preeminent constitutional scholar that he is in this country. The fact that his roots are in Newfoundland - he was born in Gr•and Bank on the Burin Peninsula - makes us as Canadians cdl that more proud o·F him personally, and all that more proud of one:~ of thE:~ great contributions that this Province has given to the Canadian nation. I should also say, Mr.

Speaker, that without seeking to promote a debate on the pros and cons of the Meech Lake Accord, and recognizing that there are, of course, other constitutional scholars who do not share Dr. Forsey•s opinions, the Government takes no small mE•asurE! of comfort from the fact Dr. Forsey•s constitutional expertise and competence endorses fully the position that the Government of this Province takes. No. 26 Rl ..

Mr. Speaker, it is a source of great pride to me today to be able to stand and endorse the warm welcome that Your Honour has ex tended on behalf of all of the Members of the House to an individual that I consider to be one of the greatest living Canadians today. Thank you and welcome, Dr. Forsey. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, very much, Mr Speaker. On behalf of my colleagues on this side of the House let me, in large measure, endorse the remarks made by the han. the Premier.

All of us in Newfoundland and Labrador are very proud of the contribution made to Canadian public life by a native Newfoundlander in the person of Dr. Eugene Forsey. We are very pleased and privileged that Dr. Forsey could come to the people's House in Newfoundland and Labrador today and be appropriately recognized by the people's representatives in this Province. Mr. Speaker, I note the Premier had to make the connection that the constitutional expertise of Dr. Forsey, in many respects mirrors the constitutional position taken by the Premier and the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. I said, Mr.

Speaker, in most respects. I have read the clear constitutional logic of Dr. Forsey now, on a number of occasions, including his commentary on the Meech Lake Accord, and I must say .I take much L2 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI more comfort in the constitutional position as professed by Dr. Forsey and the reasons for it, than I do in the constitutional position taken by the Premier c:1nd the reasons he has taken for it. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: There is one world of differE:~nce, Mr.

Speaker, in saying the distinct society clause might be this if it is interpreted this way, or it might be that if it is interpreted another way, than being a ten headed monster that the PrE:Hnier tries to make it out to be, anyway it is intr~qJJ"etNI. And that, I think, is the great contribution. Again, Dr. Forsey continues to make contributions to co~stitutional evolution and constitutional debate in- Canada. I note, Ml". Speaker, that Dr. Forsey likes to say t.o politicians, and I assume to others, that in fact ht:~ is a conservative in the tradition of John A. McDonald. I arn delighted to see with Dr.

Forsey in the Galleries today another great Progressive Conservative, Mrs. Grace Sparks - who I understand is Dr. Forsey's cousin. So Conservatives in the image of John A. McDonald, Conservatives in the image of Progressive ConseJ"Vatives in 1990 are aJways welcome to thE:~ people's House in Newfoundland and Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: ·an behalf" ·-of hon. Members I IAJclnt to formalize and extend to the p e 1". s o n a c c o rn pan y i n g Dr' . F o r s e y no lc~ss a waJ"I'n and COJ"dial IAJelcome, a No. 26 R2

distinguished Newfoundlander, a distinguished teacher, and a dedicated community worker, Mrs . Grace Sparks. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Our welcomes are a little longer than normal today. I also want to extend a warm and cordial welcome to seventy-five grades ten, eleven and twelve students, accompanied by their teachers Patsy Dohey. Melvin Critch, Brian Follett, and Hubert McGrath. They are from Fatima High School, St. Brides. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. SPEAKER: Also, I want to welcome on behalf of han.

Members a council delegation from the town of Salmon Cove represented by their Mayor, his Worship Ray Noseworthy, the Deputy Mayor Jim Parsons, and councillors Jim Reynolds, Bob Rossiter. Margret Kelloway, and the town clerk Jackie Deering. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Oral Questions MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, I see the appearing on the face of Minister of Finance.

Every grin the day, L3 May 3. 1990 Vol XLI as he should, since that fraudulent document called a Budget was brought into this House five or six weeks ago, he is expecting further questions. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance, and the Minister of Education, in particular. have been trying to convince this House, and people involved in education in Newfoundland and Labrador, that Government made great advances towards educat.ional financing in the Budget brought in five 01n six u.Jeeks ago .. Mr.

Speaker, we ha~;~e bE!en saying the opposite, and pointing out. l~.he opposite, and now school boards themselves, not Dr. Vokey and the school trustees, as the Minister of Finance tries to slough it oFF on, but school boards themselves are starting to speak out. Now one s c h o o 1 board . the Po r' t au Port Roman Catholic Board. has just written the Minister oF Education and the Minis lE!In of Finance about educational financing for 1990-1991. and they say, Min. Speaker, that they a1ne worse off because of the Minister 1 s Budget than they were before he brought it in.

Now, I l.o~Jant to ask the Minister this, Mr. Speaker: Will the Minister confirm that as a result of the 4 per cent inctneaSE! in peln pupil grants, the Port au Port Roman Catholic School Board will only be a net $5,000 better off as a result of that great Liberal initiative he talked about in his Budget? He t.o~Ji11 not rise, eh! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Education . Dl~. WARREN: No. 26 R3

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to respond to the hon. Member 1 s question. I haue receiued letters from school boards supporting many of the initiatiues of this Gouernment, as well, particularly the last year. Let me go back a year, and talk about what this Gouernment has done in one year in the area of educational finance. Last year, shortly after we came to power, we increased the school tax equalization grant, which is a tremendous aduantage for rural boards, from $4-.5 million to $10 million.

It had been increased ftnom about $2 million in 1986 to $2.5 million and $4.5 million; last year this Gouernment went to a full $10 million, and we kept it this year - we kept it at $10 million. Also, we increased capital grants for rural boards in this Prouince last year, from $20 million - it had been $20 million for a number of years - to $27 million, and these benefits will accrue to all boards in this Prouince. There are difficult times, Mr. Speaker, and boards are experiencing some difficulties. We understand that.

But we haue put in place a number of initiatiues in one year to really help schools in this Province, particularly schools in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I still want to direct my supplementary to the Minister of Finance, if he has the ability to get out of his seat, and not haue Q L4- May 3, 1990 Vol XLI the Minister of Education trying to couer for him. Mr.

Speakeln, in ui c::'W of the:' fact that this particular school board will only be $5,000 net better off as a result of the 4- per cent per pupil increase for operational expenses, can the Minister of Finance - can the Minister of Finance - tell this House how that school board will meet an additional $30,000 payroll cost this year, when they arE! going to an an operational grant increase of only $5,000? How are they going to do it, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the MinistE!r of FinanCE! . DR . KITCHEN : Mr. Speaker, that letter arriued on my desk last euening.

I took a preliminary look at it, and I found a number of inaccuraciE!S in the calculations. I am exploring this further. Some of the inaccuracies: With 1nespect to the payroll tax, for examplE!, euen the calculation of it lAJas inaccurate. So, I am looking more carefully at that. I am sure the Member t.uould not want to condemn the Gouernment on the basis of inaccurate information. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Lead er of thE ! Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT : Mr.

Speaker, the only defence here now is to attack a duly elected school board who are trying to go about putting their buclgc::~t in place as a result of the further strains put on it by this Gouernment . SOME HON. MEMBERS : -- ··------·-·· ··---- ---·--· --··· ··-- Hear, hear! No. 26 R4-

MR. RIDEOUT : Now, Mr. Speaker, the Minis te1n should be an expert on anst.~.Jering t hi s q u e s t ion with o u t any s kat i n g around whatsoever. This school board suggests their calculations show that, as a result of the Minister 1 s payroll tax, they will be $15,000 worse off in the coming fiscal year. because they will have to pay the payroll tax. Can the Minister confirm that? Is that an accurate figure, or does the Minister not know the answer to that question yet? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance . DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, that is an inaccurate figure. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, this Government, through its Hydro electricity ·policy last year, in the Budget, took away the power subsidy for PDDs in Newfoundland and Labrador. This school board contends that that particular issue will raise its light bills by $20,000 a y E!ar. How can this Minister tell this particular school board that a $5,000 increase in operating funding is going to make them better off in 1990-91 than they were previously, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. KITCHEN: Mr.

Speaker, frorn rny point of view, this is one of the figures I am checking out. I assume ·that may or may not be correct. To my knowledge, i·t is not correct. I L5 May 3, 1990 Uol XLI am in the process of having officials check into that pa1nt of the letter. There Wl::'re sevE'!n Ol" eight ib:~ms mentioned. I discovered several inaccut"acies, and I am asking people to check out the rest. Hopefully, from the point of view of the letter writer, some of the information is correct. When people write, I really believe they should do ·their bE!St to present the facts as fair, as honestly and carefully as possible.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! DR. KITCHEN : When the Leader of the Opposition abuses the time of t.his House by quoting information which he knolAJS to be inaccurate. such as the effect of the payt"oll tax on school boards, which we have already announced will be of no effect, no effect at all, when he abuses this House by quoting inaccurate information as if it were fact. then that is a very serious question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMS : Ha, ha! What a fool! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of l:hE! Opposition. MR.

RIDEOUT : The last defence of a cowardly, incompetent Minister is when he blames other elected officials for coming forward with proper explanations. Mr.Speaker. The Minister should stand. Mr, Speaker, and be prepared to defend his budgetary actions, not blame them on somebody else. slough them off on somebody else . No. 26 R5

This letter, Mr. Speaker, is signed by the Chairman of that school board , no small individual when it comes to a position of public authority in Newfoundland and Labrador. Now let me ask the Minister this, Mr . Speaker: The Chairman of this school board is saying categorically that this school board, in 1990-91, will be $100,000 worse off financially than they were in the last fiscal year. How can the Minister say his budget was a great breakthrough for education funding in Newfoundland and Labrador, Mr. Speaker? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Shame! Shame! MR. R. AYLWARD : Oh, here we go! MR. RIDEOUT: Oh!

Get in trouble, you put up your colleague. AN HON. MEMBER : It is a general question . SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Education . DR . WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . In the budget this year , the total increase in educational expenditures was from about $725 million last year to $775 million this year, about $50 million, and we add to that $3.5 million we took ·From last year 1 s Budget to buy things for this year.

L6 May 3 , 1990 Vol XLI For elemen tary and secondary Education it went From $501 million to $535 million plus three and a half. That is an in crE !ase, if rny calculations are correct, of about $37 million on $500 million, an increase of 7 . 4 per cent for elementary and SE!Condary Education in this province . And let me ask the han. Member to go over and see what happened - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! DR. WARREN: Let me ask thE! and see what Scotia. han. Member happened in SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! DR. WARREN : Let him go to Nova Sco tia . DR. KITCHEN: Right. DR.

WARREN: to go Nova L·e-t him 'Too k a t w h a l: i s hap p e rd n q across this country, and Jet him also recognize, Mr .Speab ?.r, that enrollments ar e decJ.ining dramatically in thi s province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! DR. WARREN: We have a commitment to Education, Mr. Speaker .. _ we have a cornmi trnE!nt to Education . It is one of our priorities, and we lAiill me et that commitment in the Nineties . MS VERGE : Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The han . the Member For Humber East. No. 26 1~6

MS VERGE : question is Finance a1.so. for I the Mr. Speaker, my the Minister of suggE!St to this Chairperson of Roman Catholic a lot more board's budget- Minister that the Pot~t au School board about his Port knows school MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. the Member is not to debate the answers. MR. SIMMS: There is no

preamble? AN HON. MEMBER: Pardon me! MR. SPEAKER: The han. Member is into a new question - I am assuming she is into a new question . MR. SIMMS : Yes, and

preamble . MR. SPEAKER: I just want to point out for all han. Members that Question Period is not a period for debate. It is a period for soliciting information. MR. SIMMS: Well, why did you not call the Minister to order? He debated the answer and the question. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Humber East. MS VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MS VERGE : As I said, my question - L7 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI MR. SPEAKER: Order, please . Order, please! MR. SIMMS: It is tit for tat . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please .

The Chair will not tolerate the kind of statement made by the hon . the Opposition House Leader. The Speaker's rulings in Question Period are not to be debated. For the HousE! to run smoothly, thost~ rules must be adhered to. The hon.Member for Humber East . MR. SIMMS: I just brought it to your attention, Mr. Speaker . We are allowed to do that. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, again rny question is for the Minister of Finance. MR . SIMMS: We will continue to, too . MS VERGE: The Chairperson of the Port au Port Rornan Catholic Schoo1.

Boat"d, who, I suggest, knows a lot rnot"E! about his School Board's budget than the Minister knows about thE! Budget for the Provincial Government, this ChairpE!rson is projecting an increase in electricity costs for the Board for this year of $20.000; an increase in the payroll for Board employees, other than t:he teachers 1 payroll of approximately $30 thousand, and that is allot ...

Jing for just a 4 per cent inflationary payroll increase; projecting GST costs, bE!ginning January 1st. next year; projecting Further electricity costs with the applications before the PUB that ar·e pending; proj Pcti.ng at lea st No. 26 R'l

..... the 4 pE~r cE~nt inflationary rise in other school board operating expenses; in all, projecting between $50,000 and $100,000 extra cost this year compared to last year, .when ·the Minister is giving them only an increase of $5,000 in revenue. What is the Minister of Finance going to do for the Port au Port Roman Catholic School Board and other school boards in the province which will not be able to keep their heads above water this year? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, this, I presume, is the same letter.

If it is. it was not written by the Chairman of the Board, but by one of the officials. I have already said that some of the matters in that particular letter. because some of the figures she quoted were exactly those quoted in the other letter I received from an official of the Board - MR. RIDEOUT: (Inaudible). DR . KITCHEN: Of the s evE~ n or eight points s he made, I have already discovered inaccuracies in several, and we are looking at the rest. So, what we are going to do is size up to find out precisely what are the facts here.

If school boards are in as desperate shape as the Member suggests, we have not been hearing that. Some boards wish they had more; everybody wishes they would get more money From the Budget. I have never heard of anyone yet who said, Thank you very much, WI':~ have too much. We must realize that we are living in desperate times. whE!re interest rates are rising, where we are L8 May 3. 1990 Vol XLI having very great trouble raising money, and we give increases to school boards this year. There have been increases, substantial increases.

Perhaps they are not as much as people would like, but we have to be debating on the basis of accurate information, not on the basis of things scratched down on the back of an envelope, and put in the form of a lE~tter. delivered through the Opposition for the House. MR. RIDEOUT: That is insulting . That is not true. That letter was from the School Board Chairman. Mr. SPEAKER : Order, please! Order, please! The han. the Member For Humber East. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, this Minister does not know what he is talking about! MR. SIMMS: Right on! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!

MS VERGE: This let·ter is over the signature of Barry Wilton, Chairman, Port au Port Roman Catholic School Board. MR. SIMMS: Chairman of the Board. DR. KITCHEN: Yes . MR . SIMMS : You just said it was not. MR. REID: It tJJas not well done, te11 htm. MS VERGE: No. 26 R8

Mr. Speaker, the Chairperson says, 1 0ur Board feels that these facts indicate that education has seriously slipped on the priority list and deserves ... 1 - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair has reminded hon. Members time and time again that han. Members, in Question Period, are not to read or quo"te from letters or newspapers. If han. Members persist in breaking the rules, then the House is just going to fall into a state of chaos. I do not want to remind hon. Members again about reading directly from letters. The hon. Member, obviously, can refer to it but not read from it.

The hon. the Member for Humber East. MS VERGE : Mr. Speaker, I would like the Minister of Finance to confirm that he, in fact, received a letter from the Chairperson of the Port au Port Roman Catholic School Board, and, furthermore, that the letter states that according to the School Board 1 s finanC"ial projection, that Board will be between $50,000 and $100,000 worse off this year than last year, and that, in their opinion, education financing has been eroded. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance . DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, I do not accept what the Member has said.

I might point out, my colleague has told me that that particular Board has just received granting for about a $3 million school, so that is interE!Sting. L9 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Humber East. MS VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Education. The question is, Why did not the Government provide school construction capital funding projected for three years, as was done in the past?

And will the MinistE!r confirm that, in the opinion of the Chairperson of the Port au Port Roman Catholic School Board, the Government 1 s short-sightE!dness in not making a pledge for 1992-93 may result ·.i.n that Board 1 s request for a new school, for 500 primary children in Stephenville, bc:dng dE!layed for another year? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Education . DR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, I lAJant to pay tributE! to the people in StephenvillE! fo1n the high quality of education they provided for their students in the past, and I am sure they will continue to do that through Government grants and from school taxes they collect - quitE! a bit from school taxes. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, last year, we did indicate to school boards that we would guarantee $27 million, not $20 million. I hope the hon. Member is listening. Last year, we increased the capital grants for school construction from $20 million, which had been in place for four or f"ive years, to $27 rniJ.lion. AN HON.

MEMBER : (Inaudible) . DR. WARREN: No. 26 R9

Oh, you were going to do it to $100 million! I am sure you were going to put $100 million. We increased it last year from $20 million - let me make it perfectly clear - from $20 million to $27 million for three years, and we are going ·to increase that amount over the years, not decrease it. I think the boards know that. We may be increasing it again in the not-too-distant future. · MR. HEWLETT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Green Bay. MR. HEWLETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

In his report on our Estimates Committee Meetings, our Committee Chairman, the Member for Lewis porte, said that this year 1 s Budget was truly a Liberal Budget. To me, the word 1 liberal 1 always meant a progressive view, certainly in the areas of social policy. The Minister of Finance has said there was a spE!Cial emphasis on education in his Budget, yet the Superintendent of the Green Bay Integrated School Board said, in the local paper, that the Budget was devastating to school programs. How does the Minister of Finance square that with his view of the Budget? MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, these are difficult times throughout this country. We have fewer dollars as a result of federal transfer payments this year than we would have received. These are very difficult times. LlO May 3, 1990 Vol XLI SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! DR. WARREN: Let me repeat something I said earlier. Even with these difficult times, Mr. Speaker, we increased educational funding by nearly 7.5 per cent, the same amount for elementary and secondary as for post-secondary, even in these difficult times. Let me say one other thing, Mr. Speaker.

Lei: me admit that it :is going to be:1 increasingly di.ff"icult for us to get all the money t.hat is needed to provide the E!qua1ity of educational opportunity that must be provided in this Province. We have had years of inequality - years of inequality - and who was in Gouernmf~nt in this Period of time? Who is responsible for the gross inequalities that exist? This Government is committed to clostng the gap, Mr. Spe!aker. I assuJ"e the han. Member that we will close that gap and provide greater equality of educational opportunity for every student in this Province. MR.

SPEAKER : The hon. the Member for Green Bay . MR. HEWLETT: Mr. Speaker, the Gre:1en Bay Superintendent also said that the 4 per cent increase in the per student operating grants will be offset by the declining enrollments the Minister mentioned earlier. The Minister of FinancE!, and, I guess, the Minister of Education, are PHDs in Education and should be lAJell aware of that, so how can they say there have been increases, Mr. Speaker? No. 26 R10

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education . DR. WARREN: I will not list all the increases, Mr. Speaker, this year in educational funding. I will not list them all, adding up ·to a 7.4 per cent increase in elementary and secondary education. But, yes, we do have a declining enrollment. Let me give the House some data. I am pleased to present these data with a lot of students here, because we know these are excellent students and we have provided a good program for many students in this Province. Let me indicate, though, that enrollments are decreasing dramatically. In 1971-72, we had 162,000 students.

AN HON. MEMBER: Answer the question . Mr. Speaker, this is directly related to the question. In 1971, we had 162,000 students in this Province. This year, we have 130,000, and in 1999, the projection is that we will have about 100,000 students. The grant system the other persons put in place, the other Government, is based on a pE!r student basis. We have been giving out grants on a per student basis, so when the students go down, the amount of money goes down. But we are going to change that, Mr. Speaker. The grant system we inherited from the seventeen years, is grossly flawed. Let me tell the hon.

Member, if he is listening, that we are going to change that system so that in the future, grants will not be paid on the basis of enrollment, but on program. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! L11 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I want to point out again, to hon.

ME:1mbers on both sides of t.he House, that the Question Period is a period for information, and that Members, in the framing of their questions, should attempt to frame questions which do not get into policy, and Ministers, when they are answering, should also remember that their answers ought to be brief and that they, too, oug~1t not to abuse that nilE!, and ought not to get into debate. MR. HEARN : Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for St. Mary 1 s -The Capes. MR. HEARN: Thank you, very much, Mr. Speaker . My qLiestion is to thE! MinistE•r of Education.

I wonder if the Minister would like to correct some of the rnisinfo1nmation he earlier gave, when he said they increased the capital budget from $20 million to $27 million. It was $22 million, with $2 million for retrofit. The $27 million, the $5 million extra, does not benefit all boards, as the Minister said, it. is to alleviate the debt load of somE:1 boards out there, which leaves most of th~"m with just the $20 million this year. Will the Minister correct that?

And will he also tell us that the Transportation budget, which is also going to effect boards such as Port au Port. and the others, is going to hurt boards? And will he also te11 us that he is deliberately misleading the people of the Province - MR. SPEAKER: No. 26 Rl1

Order, please! MR. HEARN: I withdraw, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HEARN: I did not say the House, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Well, I am sure the han . gentleman would . MR. HEARN: I withdraw. I withdraw. And that he is misleading the people of the Province and the school boards when he says there is an increase in the primary, elementary and secondary budgets to help boards, because the increase, the $39 million approximately, is identical to the increase in teachers 1 salaries. There is not a one cent increase for board operations in this Province.

Will the Minister correct the misinformation he has given this House? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Education. DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, the $27 million, we do break it up. We have worked with the Denominational Education Councils, and I might say they requested that we break the $27 million up so that they would have some money for debt retirement. And one very important thing, Mr. Speaker, we do put some money into accessibility of schools. We want to make current schools and future schools more accessible to the disabled, and I think there is $1 milLion there for that. That is done .

We arE! proud of that initiative, Mr. Speaker. L12 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI I will admit, Mr. Speaker, that the transportation grant is the same this yea1~ as last YE!al~. I tJJill admit that. And we he-we fewer students. I guess what I am saying to school boards, and I will speak with them next week in Gander, if I can arrange to be there, but what we arE! saying is that the time has come to rationalize the school busing system. We cannot continue wi ·th same of the reported dupli~ation and triplication of buses. We cannot do it, Mr. Speake I~! WE! have to encourage school boards in all parts of the Province. AN HON.

MEMBER: (Inaudible). DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, they asked for an answer. Do they want the answer? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) if you cannot do it . DR. WARREN: Do they want the facts? MR . SPEAKER : Order, please! DR. WARREN : I have never misled this House, and I will give you the facts . AN HON. MEMBER : You aJ.ways do . DR. WARREN: Never , to my have the facts . Mr. Speaker, listen. AN HON. MEMBER : knowledge . And I I haVE! the facts, if they lAJant ·to Well, answer the question now . DR. WARREN: I am answering the question . No . 26 R12

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I remind han. Members again that when a question is asked, it makes it very difficult for the Chair to listen to the answer when there are interruptions on either side. Particularly in Question Period, there need not be these interruptions. I know han. Members are excited with questions, but there is a place to ask the questions. I would ask the Minister to please clue up his answer as quickly as possible. The han. the Minister of Education. DR. WARREN : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I will do that.

I would suggest to the House that over the next year we are going to be looking at ways to rationalize, encourage more sharing; fewer buses, maybe, in some areas and more sharing, so that we can keep the cost of transportation down and get the most value for the money we spend. One little bit of information, Mr. Speaker. I mentioned it earlier, and someone asked for a clarification. I have just been passed a note from the han. the Member for Stephenville. A new school, St.

Stephen's Primary School, mentioned by the han. the Member for Humber East, has been approved , for 500 students, and construction will begin this year. We are delighted with that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the ME!ITtber for St. John 1 s Ll3 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI East Extern. MR. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question, Mr. Speaker, is to the Minister of Environment and Lands. I believe we are all awatne in this han. House that the railway tracks have been remove•d.

Does the Minister have any plans for development on the Crown lands in the vicinity of the railway beds? MR. SPEAKER: The -- ho·n··~ the Minister of Environment and Lands. MR. KELLAND : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Just to tell the hon. ME!mber briefly, Mr. Speaker, the arrangement with respect to the lands formerly owned by the railway, quesU.ons in that rE!gard should more properly be directed to my coJ.league imrnediateJ.y to thE! right.

But when the matter is re!solved and the land re,acquitned I it will be turned back to the Province and become Crown lands, and then subject l:o whateVE!r rules and regulations Crown lands are subject to. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Mernbetn fotn St. John 1 s East Extern. MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the responsibility lies with the Department of Environment and Lands. I am talking about the adjacency aspect of this, thE! adjacent lands to l:he railtAJay beds. We know the ttnansportaU.on aspect of it would the road to. What I arn asldng the Ministetn is I are there any permits?

Will the Minister be issuing permits for No. 26 Rl3

the lands in the adjacent to where tracks ran? vicinity of or the old railtJJay MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Environment and Lands. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am not totally sure the han. Member knows what he is talking about, Mr. Speaker. We can only issue title to land that is Crown land. The land which had been owned by the railway, in conjunction 1..1.1ith my colleague both Departments are working on it. When the land is reacquired, it will be turned back to the Crown and handled as any other Crown land. Any applications which come in will be treated in the normal manner for Crown land.

There are no specific plans prior to the acquisition of the land. MR. SPEAKER : The han. Member for St. John 1 s East Extern. MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, I understand there are a number of cabins and portable trailers already situated in these areas. Would the Minister confirm that his Department has issued permits for construction or occupancy? How many have been issued? And what criter.ia has he · been using? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Environment and Lands. MR . KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I lAiill have to check the details. If the Member would be more specific as to which areas, as to L14.

May 3, 1990 Vol XLI which cabins, which ot .. mers hP is talking about, I can research that for him. Beyond that, then! is no answer that can posstbly given unless he is more specific. MR. WARREN : Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The han . Member for Torngat Mountains . MR . WARREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . My question is to the Premier, who is responsible For Intergovernmental Affairs. Mr. Speaker, yesterday I asked the Premier a couple of qUE!Stions. I want to ask him one more today.

Is the Premier aware that more and more residents oF Labrador are upset and concerned about military activity in Labardor, particularly as it relates to low-level flying? MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not au.Jare of it, and I do not beJ.iE!Ve it l':.o be so. The simple fact is, a nurnber of residents of Labrador haVE!, for sometime, been opposed to J.ow-level flying. Particu1ar1y, and, for the rnost part, almost exclusiVE!J.y, the natiVE! pE!OpJ.e of Labrador have obj ec t:ed to low-leveJ. flying. I have seen nothing whatsoever to indicate that it is more and more.

I believe it is approximately the same as it was in the past, and, as I have noted before, representations like that, by ·that han. Member, have alt.uays been found by me usuaJ.ly to be unfounded. SOME HON . MEMBERS : No. 26 r~ 14.

Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SPEAKER: The han. Member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . Is the• Premier aware that the military are flying low over t1naditional hunting grounds in the Hopedale area? MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: I remember seeing maps showing the corridors where low-level flying was done. Whether it involved anything in the Hopedale area or not , I do not know . But if the han. Member does not know, I will be glad to make inquiries and find out if anything is being done in the Hopedale area. MR. SPEAKER: The han.

Member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday, in a question, I asked the Premier if he would meet with concerned groups who were concerned about low-level flying in Labrador. I would like to ask the Premier if he would meet with the concerned citizens of Hopedale? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS : I will mE!et IA.Jith concerned citizens of any community in this Province who haVE! 'established some Ll5 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI basis for concern. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER WELLS: No less the citizens oF the community of Hopedale.

If, as, and when the Council in Hopedale, or a group of concerned citizens of Hopedale ask me to meet with them, I will most certainly meet with them. But, as I have said before, Mr. Speaker, based on the kinds of representations we have heard from that hon. Member in the past, I have no confidence that there are indeed concerned citizens in Hopedale, although there may be. MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has expired . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr . Speaker, on a point of order . MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. thE! Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr.

Speaker, I listened with a great deal of interest to the rE!Sponses given by the PrE!mier to questions asked by my friend from Torngat Mountains today. I did so, Mr. Speaker, For a particular r.:1ason. Yesterday we noticed, and it was not something new, we had noticed it in this House before. The Premier has an ability, despite his great orations about decorum in the House, and respE!Ct for individuals, and respect for the constituents of peoplE! who ;;end people to this House of Assembly, Mr. Speaker, we have noticed consistently when this particular Member from Torngat Mountains asks a question, the No. 26 Rl5

Premier is so condescending in his response, he is normally insulting in his response, he normally tries to belittle, giving the strong impression, Mr. Speaker, by his actions and by his distain, that he has no time for the intellectual capacity or otherwise of the Member for Torngat Mountains. Some of the words he used today, Mr. 'Speaker, just look at Hansard from yesterday, 'a lacking in good sense'. Look at yesterday's Hansard further on, 'I tan not make much sense of that. 1 'I know, from his performance in the House in the past, that I cannot rely on very much of what he says,' Mr.

Speaker, 'credible suggestions'. He would listen to somebody else, Mr. Speaker. The last part of the Premier's comments from yesterday, but based on anything that the hon. Member says, 'I would not walk to the end of that door in reliance of anything the hon. Member said, based on his performance in the past. 1 We heard the same kind of language from the Premier again today, Mr. Speaker. Giving the - AN HON. MEMBER : Why do you not quote what the han . Member said. M.!L RIDEO!,I_I: Look - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. RIDEOUT: Look, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman should keep quiet .

If you want to raise in this House, raise on a point of privilege. Mr. Speaker, the only thing that can interrupt me under this Ll6 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI procedure today is a privilege. If the hon. has one, raise it and I down Mr. Speaker. Other AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: point of gentle1nan wtll s1.t than that Order, please! Order, please! I ask the hon. gentleman pJ.eas E! to refrain from interrupting. Again, the hon. gentleman is on a point of order and all hon. Members have the right to be heard in siJ.ence. The hon. the Leadel" of thE! Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT : Mr .

Speaker, what I am saying to that hon. gentleman, and every hon. lady and gentleman on that side, is that I have no intention, as Leader of the Opposition over here, to see anybody ... _ I do not want it done from here and I do not want to see anybody from over there - poking fun at, bE!1ittJ.ing, and trying to somehow undermine the credibility of a Member of t hi s H o u s e . I s aw i t y e s t e r d a y , I saw it again today and my rnE!rnory tells me, Mr. Speaker, that I saw it in this House last fall, by the Premier.

The person who talks so much about decorum, who wants to raise the level of debate in ·this House, who wants Newfound1anders and Labradorians to think he is God's gift to democracy in this Province, Mr. Speaker. The performance of the Premier yesterday, and the performance of the Premier today is despicable, Mr . Speaker. The Premier should at least apologize to that Membel" and to this House For his ac t.i.ons, Mr. Speaker. No . 26 Rl6

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, there is nobody in this House more concerned about the decorum and propriety of comment in this House than I am. Now at the same time I state that, I reaffirm every comment read out by the Leader of the Opposition in respect to the han. gentleman. I will explain to the House, why I did it. I will just ask my assistant to dig out every question that the hon. gentleman has asked in the past and I will make it public so that everybody will know the basis for it.

Some of the comments, representations and misleading presentations that he has made to this House in the past has justified my taking the position - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). PREMIER WELLS: I will finish first. -that if there is any cause or any validity to what the han. Member says, I will act on it immediately. But based on his past performance in this House I have reason never to move immediately on anything he says.

I saw that hon. gentleman take and put together documents and present them in this House as though the document was a map attached to an agreement made between the Quebec Government, the Montagnais Indians and the Federal Government. It had nothing to do with it, it was not part of it at all, for the sake of mischievously trying to create ill-feelings and disruption amongst the native people of this Province and the L17 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI Government. I have seen him in the past do other things, and present other misleading positions. Mr. Speaker, I tJJi11 speak frankly, if and when anything the han.

Member says has validity, or I am satisfied that it has validity, I will act on it immediately. As far as all other han. Members are concerned, when they raise a question and present facts, I operate on the presumption that what they say to rne is correct, and I will take steps to · check it out immediately. But when ·tha·t hon. M·ember, based on his past performance, presents this position, did I know this or that, when I have no cause whatsoever to believe there is any validity j,n it, I say again, if I have any cause to bE!lieve it I will act on it.

I have heard from nobody in Hopedale, nobody in Goos~::' Bay, nobody from anywhere else, and if and when I do, I will be most happy to meet with them on the basis of any genuine concern, but on the basis of representations that that hon. Member rnai<E!S, and on the basis of his past performance, I have no intention whatsoever of initiating any action. MR. SPEAKER : The han . the Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, what the Premier is doing now, of course, is a continuation of what he was alleged to have done by the Leader of the Opposition in the point o·F order. He continues to do it, Mr.

Speaker, bu l: the point he is missing is that he is doing it:. in an unparliamentary way . Considering the fact that he has, No. 26 Rl7

in the past, uttered frequently his want to uphold parliamentary traditions and practices, parliamentary language. and things of that nature, it is now becoming obvious that those are simply words and nothing else. Mr. Speaker, I just refer, for Your Honour's consideration when he considers this matter, to Beauchesne, 6th Edition, Page 142, Paragraph 484 (3), referring to Members, Members in debate. Section (3) says in part, "In the House of Commons a Member will not be permitted by the Speaker to indulge in any reflections on thE!

House itself as a political institution; or to impute to any Member or Members unworthy motives ." Now, Mr. Speaker, clearly what the Premier has said yesterday, today, and now in speaking to the point of order, is obviously imputing unworthy motives, and nobody can deny that, nobody other than the Premier himself. who would of course deny it. But, I suggest to Your Honour that it is clear. ThE!re arE! references in that same sub-paragraph, Mr. Speaker, about the use of indecent language.

Paragraph 486 on Page 143 talks about injurious reflections uttered in debate against particular Members, all unparliamentary, Mr. Speaker. Paragraph 4-87 says. "Words may not be used hypothetically or conditionally. if they are plainly intended to convey a direct imputation." All of these things. Mr . Speaker. the Premier has done. and it is clear for anybody to hear. clear for anybody to say. Why does he not have the courage to stand up and apologize to the Member and to the House and that tAJi11 settle the matter? He does not have the political backbone to L18 May 3. 1990 Vol XLI do so. him .

That is what is wrong with SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : The han . the Leader. MR. TOBIN: GovernrrH:1nt House The sleaziest Government, ever. MR. SPEAKER : Order. please! I overheard a comment from the Member for Burin -· PJ.aCE!ntia tAJh:l.ch the Chair considers to be most unparliamentary and I a~; k the Member to withdraw it. MR. TOBIN : I withdraw it, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader. MR. WARREN : It is true though . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Government HOUSE!

The Chair again overhears thE! interruptions by the Member for Torngat Mountains and asks l:.he Member for Torngat Mountains to please restrain himself, particularly on l::hE! heE!J.S of l::he Speaker making a ruling. The han. Leader. MR. BAKER: the Government Thank you, Mr. Speaker. House What we are seeing here today. in the last couple of rnornE!nts. is an indication oF a basic problem we have, and I would like to deaJ. No. 26 R18

with that in just one moment. A point of order, as Mr. Speaker knows, and as everybody knows, deals with calling the attention of the Speaker, Your Honour, to any departure from the Standing Orders and so on. It is correctly called a point of order. Now, Mr. Speaker, in the particular instance cited by the Leader of the Opposition, the Premier was simply stating a fact, and that fact has to do with what happens in this House. MR. SIMMS : It is unparliamentary. It is unworthy . That is the point. MR. BAKER : One assumes, Mr.

Speaker, that Question Period 1 s function is the asking of questions and the soliciting of information. And the whole assumption is done around the rules of procedure and are based on that assumption that the function of Question Period is simply to ask questions and to receive answers. Now, Mr. Speaker, as you know and Members opposite know, down through the years we have perhaps evolved something slightly different, where Question Period is used by Oppositions, I am not limiting it to this one, but used by Oppositions to - how shall I put it, Mr. Speaker? - to play games and perform little tricks. MR.

SIMMS: That is your favourite argument. MR. BAKER: Well it happens to be true, I say to the Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS: (Inaudible) . MR . BAKER : The asking of Ll9 May 3, 1990 questions has Vol XLI evolved into games and trickery. That is exactly what has happened over the last number of years . And as a consequence, Mr. SpeakE!r, the Premier is simply rE!cognizing that fact. If there is an hon. Member or hon. Members in this House asking questions, generally their question is in the form of a trick kind of thing, have you stopped beating your wife? - and that kind of thing.

Or devious kinds of questions, Ol" putting things together that do not really belong together then, M1n. Speaker, the Premier is pointing out that this is his experienCE! with this hon. Member. It is simply a statement of fact. There is no matter of order here. It is simply the way that Question Period has evolved. NotAl I would be the first to admit that it would be perhaps more elucidating to Members of the public if questions were asked to get answers and answers were giVE!n to give answers. That is not what happens in this House. That is not the way things have evolved. So, Mr.

Speaker, it is not a matter of order. There were no motives imputed. None whatsoever. And the Premier was simply pointing out the kinds of questions that are coming across the House, in some cases, and by some hon. Members, tend to be that kind of questions that are designed for purposes other than perhaps eliciting information. And that is exactly the• situation in this case, Mr. Speaker. So I would suggest to you that this is not really a point of order.

I know the Oppos i l:ion House Leader has a tendency, and again this is something that I have mentioned before, in debating points of order and privilege to No. 26 R19

quote sections that have really nothing to do with the point in question. He has a tendency to do that and he gets quite emotional and assumes that by becoming emotional, then that is going to lend weigh to the argument. Well, Mr. Speaker, there is no argument to what he says. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To the point of order. There are a couple of observations that the Chair would like to make. Very often the Chair has indicated that Question Period, in particular, has a different set of rules applied to it than other proceedings in the House.

And Question Period, in particular, is why the Chair raises so often to remind han. Members on both sides that the Question Period is a period for soliciting information and not for debate. Now very often in a question, we try to discourage

preamble, because very often it is in the

preamble that a Member will put in the kind of word that promotes debate. And if the Chair had to arise on every occasion, then we would never get through the Question Period, but the Chair, of course, calls on han. Members to co-operate. Very often we will get han. Members referring to the incompetence of a Minister or the inability of a Minister, and these are debatable terms, and one might say, unparliamentary - hardly unparliamentary - but they are debatable terms. I think the same applied when the Premier was referring to the han. Member for Torngat Mountains.

He was making the same kind of suggestion that L20 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI han. Members make when asking a question - of a lack of competence in a Minister or on a Minister 1 s ability. He was saying that he lacked confidence in the question. I hardly see that it is imputing motives. The Chair would caution han. Members on both sidE!S of the House, particularly in Question Period, to refrain from, avoid as much as possible, using words that certainly encourage debate, because that is not what Question Period is about . And I want to advise han.

Members that a different set of rules apply in other areas, because Question Period is not fo1n debatE!, that is to take place in other areas; and phrases and words that rrdght not be permitted in Question Period, might very well be permitted in the debate part of the House. So, I say to han. Members on both sides of the House, rE!member the distinct differences between Question Period and other procedures in the House, and I ask all han.

Members to refrain, as much as possible, from using debatable terms, and also to respect each other; because iF we do not respect each other, u..1e cannot expect anyone else to respect us. I will say, in this particular case, it is not a point of ordE!r, but merely a difference of opinion between two han. gentlemen as to the context and the tone of what was said. But again, I want to caution hon. Members to pay attention to the few brief remarks I have made in this regard . The han. the Member For Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN : Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . No . 26 R20

I want to give notice that once I have rE!ad Hansard, I wi.l1 be making a point of privilege. Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD:. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . The Government Services Committee have considE!Ined the matters to them referred, and have directed me to report having passed, without amendment, the Estimates of Expenditure for the Departments of Finance, Works, Services and Transportation, Employment and Labour Relations, Municipal and Provincial Affairs. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Petitions MR.

SPEAKER : The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . I have a a petition, but maybe I should ask the Premier first, am I allowed to present it or not. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! The hon. gentleman should not be making these kinds of remarks, this is not the appropriate place. The hon. gentleman may presr::~nt his petition. It is the House that allows that. 1.. 21 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI MR. TOBIN: Say nothing about the Premier, 'Garf', you could be named . MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have a peti·tion to present.

ApparentJ.y the Premier does not like the qut:~stions I ask and, as I said, maybE! he does not like the petitions I present. However I IAJill say this, I t.ui.J.J. continue to ask questions and I will continue t 0 pInE! sent p E! tit ions in this House, whe!ther the Prernier likes it or not, Mr. Speaker. And I say to you, Sir, and to l:he PrE!mier, that if the PrE!ITlier wouJ.d listen to these petitions, tht:~n he would not be doing to the Labrador people what this Government has been doing for the last fifteen months. Mr.

Speaker, I think it is ridiculous that the Premier would allow the Labrador people to suffer because of a cut to the Air Subsidy Program. I have many petitions here from all over Labrador, some from Hopedale, some from Goose Bay, some from Eagle River. I will go with the District of Eagle River. Mr. Speaker, I have to say om! other thing. I believe it. is an obligation of each Member in this House who receiVE!S a pE!tition, to make sure it is presented to this House.

These Members have a responsibility to the people, and I know, because I have copiE!S of petitions that have been sent to Members opposite, that they have not pres en ted to this House. Now why does not the Premier get after his own colleagues and make sure the petitions are presented to this House? This petition, Mr. SpeakE!r: "We are concerned that the GovernrnE!nt of Newfoundland and Labrador has reduced the Labrador Air Subsidy No. 26 R21

and has, therefore, unacceptably increased the burden of transportation costs to the people of Labrador. 11 It is sigm~d by about fifty pE!ople in the community of Red Bay - and I have to sign it also, naturally - in the District of Eagle River. They are concerned about the action and they are concerned about the action of this Gove1nnrnent. They aJne also concerned t~at - AN HON. MEMBER : Did the Dumaresques live there? MR. WARREN: No, Mr. Speaker. There are the Yetmans, the Belbins, the Moores, the Stones, and the Winsors, Mr. Speaker.

These are people who are concerned about their air subsidy progr·am being cut. These are people, Mr. Speaker, who are concerned about the Labrador Summer Games, because two people from Red Bay were not allowed to enter into the Labrador Summer Games Table Tennis Championships because of this Government's decision. I will say more about that later on, Mr. Speaker. And I am sure my han. colleague would agree that they were short-changed by this Government in the Winter Games which were recently held. Mr.

Speaker, I want to this petition, as I did other petitions, and continue to present petitions in this House· as I am a Member. support all the I will these long as The tJJay things went today, I have a feeling I will be in this House longer than the Premier, because the action of the Premier today IAJas nothing but right down in the gutter. Mr. Speaker, I want to support this petition. Hopefully, L22 May 3, 1990 Uol XLI it will be referred to the Department to which it relates, IAJhich is Cultural Affairs, and also the Depa1ntrnent of Works, Services and TransportaU .on. I would hope, Mr.

Speaker, that I will get some support from my colleague, the Minister of Education, because this ties in - AN HON. MEMBER: Is that Red Bay? MR. WARREN: Yes, it is Red Bay, District of Eagle River. in thr:~ Min. Speaker, yes, it is a gr·~;:,at tourist attraction, one of the best tourist attractions in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. I would urge everybody who is planning to go up to Red Bay this year to go Red Bay and, at ·the same time, take in the Bakeapple Festival, which is an annual event in the Straits area. Mr. Speaker, we support this.

We support any kind of event like this which takes place anywhere along the coast of Labr·ador. But apparently the Premier does not care about Labrador; he never did, and hE! never wi1J., because hE! was part of the Government JJJhich gave away the upper Churchill. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. ~he Member for Menihek . MR. A. SNOW: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak to the petition presented so capably on behalf of the residents of Red Bay, in the District of Eagle River, on the issue of subsidizing No. 26 R22

transportation Labrador. to and from The han. the Member for Torngat Mountains has presented numerous petitions. He is very capable, very knowledgeable about Labrador, and he does it with a certain amount of vigor, which many of us cannot seem to give here in this han. House. Of course, we all realize the importance of transportation to and from Labrador, and the reasons why thE:~se ·two particular ptnograms t.uere instituted by previous Administrations and administered by two particular Departments, the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs and the Department of Works, Services and Transportation.

They were put there twenty-five years ago, I believe, by the former Liberal Administration, initially, and they were put there for several reasons, Probably the most important reason was the fact that there was a feeling here on the Island portion of the Province that there was a deep feeling of alienation developing within Labrador, and that there had to be some sort of bridge.

That bridge, while it could not be a concrete type of bridge, or a structure in the sense of having vehicles or traffic going over it, that type, it had to be something to do with transportation, and they felt an air transportation subsidy could be that bridge. Indeed, it did work as a bridge for the last twenty-five years. It was a bridge that gapped a feeling between the Island portion of the Province and the Labrador portion of this Province.

It is interesting to note that the reasons given by this particular Administration as to why they cut L23 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI these prog1nams we1ne budgeta1ny and the lack of use, although 6,000 people used it; 20 per cent of the population used just one program. About 8,000 people are affected by the second program, which is another significant portion of the population of Labrador. High administration costs was giVE!n as the reason for discon·tinuing this program. These, of course, are not really the reasons.

The han. the Minister of FinanCE! gave the real reason fo1n cutting the Travel Subsidy Programs to and from Labrador. That was in his Budget Speech. He suggested thE! reason for cutting it was the fact that the residents of Labrador' received a northern tax benefit package, and they felt - he is over there shaking his head not.u. He is confirming what I am saying, that he cut those two programs because of the Federal Government's tax concession given to the residents of Labrado1n.

We can assume from that, then, because the Minister of Finance confirms that is t.uhy it t.uas cut, that, indeed, if any tax concession is given to any residents of this Province by the Federal Government, the immediate response of the Provincial Government is to grab that extr·a, so-called tax benefit to individuals. We can assume, because the only thing we know that is going to occur in the future is if we judge the past, that that t.uas the reason given by the Minister of Finance as to why those programs were cut. DR. KITCHEN: No . That is what used to happen in the past. MR. A.

SNOW : It happened in was presented. No. 26 this Budget that I am sure that the R23

hon. - MR. PARSONS : (Inaudible) for the last thirteen months. MR. A. SNOW: The last fourteen months, and in the Budget just announced by the Minister of Finance. Of course, it is interesting to note, too, Mr. Speaker, that if we were to consider that Labrador was an Island, and a subsidy was in place falling in line with the policy of this particular Administration and other Administrations which governed this Province, there would be a subsidy to travel to and from Labrador, brought down to the level of road transportation .

Because it is the policy of this Administration, and other Administrations, that ferry transportation, water transportation, would be subsidized to bring it down to the cost of road transportation within the Province. Now, we probably may get an interesting conjecture from the hon. the Member for Gander, why he does not want to see the people of Labrador - and he likes to belittle. It does not mean much to him. He lives in Gander.

And with his District being a single community, neither he nor his constituents have to travel as far as the people in Labrador; it does not cost $725 for a person to travel from Gander to St . John 1 s, or Gander to Grand Falls, to participate in a high school volley ball tournament . But let me tell the hon. the Member for Gander that it does cost over $700 to travel from Menihek to St. John 1 s, or to Gander, to participate in a basketball tournament.

L2 4- May 3, 1990 Vol XLI It would be interesting to note that. if, indeed, the rulin~1 had been a little changed in 1927, lAJe may havE:~ had a piece of property called the Anticosti Island. It would have been governed as part of this Province, of course, and we would be able to travel in a subsidized manner to the Anticosti Island, but we would not be able to get a subsidy going even further, to the Mainland of Labrador. It is unfortunate the people in Cabinet did not recogniZE! the historical values of having the people of Labrador travel, and the merits of why they s houJ.d bE! subsidizing.

I was very disappointed the Minister of Education, who is so eloqu ent when he is up speaking and talking about the education his Government is bringing to the people of this Province, does not recognize the value in education when students of this Province have the opportunity of travelling and competing in sports and athletic events. He shakes his hE!ad that he is against subsidizing . MR. SPEAKER : OrdE:~r. please! The han. elapsed . MR. A. SNOW: gentleman 1 s tirne has If I may have just om• minute to clue up, Mr. Speaker.

I would urge that the special Cabinet committee, when they get through their deliberations, look at subsidizing the Air Subsidy Program to Labrador to bring it in line with what it would cost if you lAJere to have it as a road; to use the same criteria they used when they considered subsidizing water transportation for thE! rest No. 26 I~ 2 4-

of this Plnovince. much, Mr. Speaker. Thank Orders of the Day MR. BAKER : Order 3, Mr. Speaker . MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: you very The hon . l:he Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS : Mr. Speaker, I want to participate br·iefly in this Concu1nrence Debate on the Resource Departments' Estimates, which began on Tuesday. Yes, it was Tuesday, after we finished the Social Services one. I heard briefly the report of the new Chairman of the liberal caucus, who also reported. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SIMMS: I am not surprised to have seen already in only one short year of Liberal rule, the Chairman of the Liberal caucus resigning his position. It does not surprise me one bit. It is pretty obvious he cannot stand the policies of the Government over there, and obviously does not want to have to stand up front, and out in the public eye, and explain to the public all the callous and ridiculous decisions this Government has made. So what they did was, they neatly got rid of him.

Because few of his colleagues, dot.~.m in that corner in particular, have very little support for the Member for Mount L25 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI Scio - Bell Island; his friends down in that co1nner have bE!en aftE!r him fo1" a anyway, to try to get him office, and now they successfully done it. knifer there year, out of have Now what they have done is they have put the new Member - AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) leadership over there . MR. SIMMS: I beg your pardon? I did not hear the hon. Member. AN HON. MEMBEI~ : (Inaudible) you in the lE•adEqnship over there. MR. SIMMS : Yes. Oh, Mr.

Speaker, I !AJC:.lS quite happy with the support I had in the Leadership, and I got a good deal of support from my caucus. But, Mr. Speaker, I did not resign, as the han. the Member for Bell Island did. Not.u, Mr. Speaker, they have tl.llnned around and they put their faith in a rookie, the new Member fi"Om t.he District of let.uispor·te, who is very new, brand new, still feeLing his way around. A nice gentleman. I do not know if he is a good Member, I have no idea. MR. FLIGHT: Why do you not? MR. SIMMS: Because I only listen to lAJhat is happening in Windsor - Buchans, boy, and Exploi t.s.

The MernbE!r for Lewisport.e has been given the onerous task of bE!ing Cha'.i1nrnan of the LibE!ral caucus, fo1louling the resignation of the previous Chairman of the Liberal caucus, a rnan who could not take the pressure, and !AJho lAJas not prepar~O'd No. 26 R25

to go and stand in the public and defend the Government 1 s policies and decisions. I have admiration for the Member for Mount Scio Bell Island for having the fortitude to be able to do that. Now, the Member for Lewisporte, as I said, I am not so sure if he is going to be able to carry the ball, Mr. Speaker. Your Honour smiles, and well he should, because he ~nows of which I speak. The Member for Lewisporte may not have the same kind of forcefulness the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island had when he, on occasion, tried to publicly defend Government decisions.

He had to give the impression that he was very forceful and strong and supportive, because, Mr . Speaker, there was always the question, like the question the press put to him when he announced his resignation. They asked, 1 Well, are you resigning as Chairman of the caucus because there might be a Cabinet post for you? 1 The Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island said, 1 0h, I do not know about that, you know. I do not k now about that . If I am as ked , I will have to consider it . 1 I do not know why he not just did say no, there is no Cabinet past for him. Because that is the reality.

Now the Member for Lewisporte will have to carry the ball, but first he tJJill have to find it. That is what I say to the Member for Lewisporte. First, he will have to find the ball. He is still lao king. A nice fellow. He has been there for a year . But he is still looking for that ball . Now, to try to carry that onerous task it is going to be an added responsibility. Nevertheless, I congratulate him for his short tenure , be c au s e he wi 11 on 1 y be there a year. I presume the L26 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI caucus agrees with the recommendation of the Chairman, that there should be a new chairman every year.

That is what the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island said. I look forward to seeing the Minister of Forest1ny as Chairman of the Liberal caucus one of these days. I look forward very much to that. Mr. Speaker, this Chairman of the Liberal caucus now, from Lewisporte, happens to also be the Chairman of the Resource Estimates Committee. It was his task and responsibility, of course, to chair the meetings from time to time. I only sat in on one meeting briefly, and he did a good job. Of cou1nse, he did. I have no problem with that. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) . MR. SIMMS: Everybody heard about it, I guess, eh!

He called me to task SE!Ver·al times, cal1ed !TIE:' to order, whtch is nothing unusual. This ME~rnbc:~r has no problem with bc:~ing call.E !d to order, as the Speaker FulJ. t.-JeJ.l knows, and I listen to th e Chair when it calls me to order. I have great respect for the authority of the Chair, unlike Members opposite, who challenged theiJn ou.Jn Speaker 1 s ruling in order to get their oum way; the only lAJclY they could do it; the first time Jn our history that I know of. MJ".

Speaker, I have a gr1:;!at deal of respect for the Chair, and I had a great deal of respect for the Member for Lewis porte when he called me to task on several occasions, I suspect trying to defend or cover up for the Minister of Fo1nestry, whom I was trying to get at, and trying to question. Every time I got a good series of questions going, the No. 26 R26

Chairman, the Member for Lewispor·te interrupted mE:~, saying, You cannot ask questions that way. That is too aggt~es sive. You cannot be aggressive in Commit tee. It is not mE:~ ant to be aggressive. Well, he did not use those words, but that is what he was doing. I hope I can bait him and encourage him to get up and speak again in debate, so he can attack me again for ten minutes and tell me I was wrong. I expect him to do that. Let me get to some of the Departments 1 Estimates, Mr. Speaker. We wi1J. have lots of time in the next couple of hours to dE:~bate the Resource Estimates.

We get ten minutes each, so I t.~Jill take ten minutes now and we will see what else happens from time to time. These Departments include the Department of Fishery, the Department of Forestry and Agriculture, Development and Tourism, Mines and Energy, and Environment and Lands. I believe those are the five Departments. AN HON. MEMBER: They are coming to take you away. MR. SIMMS: As long as they do not have white jackets, I am okay. Mr.

Speaker, these five Departments, of course, are probably the most important Departments from a resource development perspective of any Departments of Government, or Government operation, no question! They are the only ones, I suppose. Assuming thE! Minister of Finance can provide these Resource Development Departments with the necessary financing and funding, then they may be able to L27 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI do a reasonable job.

In the case of the Department of DeveloprnE:'nt, I would like to know exactly tJJhat the Department of DeveloprnE:'nt. has done since this Government has been in power, now well into its second year. MR. EFFORD: It has been developing . MR. SIMMS: It is - interesting that the Minister of Social Services says it has been developing, because I have some information here which sort of indicates othert.~r.ise.

When you talk about business development in Newfoundland, here is an interesting statistic from Stats Canada. 1 Personal and business bankruptcies in Newfoundland and the rest of Atlantic Canada wet~e up about 60 per cent in the past year. 1 Since this ~overnment came into office in Newfoundland, there has been a 60 per cent increase in bankruptcies in Atlantic Canada. MR. TOBIN : Is there a connection? MR. SIMMS : Well, let us see if there is a connection, Mr. Speaker. That is the statistic for Atlantic Canada, 60 per cent.

In Newfoundland, comparing the first three months of 1989, when we were in office, to the first three months of this year, when ~ou were in office, for the past year, do you know how many first quarter bankruptcies there have been in Newfoundland? In the first quarter of last year, 1989, when we LI.JerE! in power, thet~E· were forty-four in Newfoundland. Do you know how many there have been in Newfoundland this quarter, this year? There have been 105 bankruptcies. No. 26 1~27

DR. KITCHEN: The Federal Government. The Federal Government . MR. SIMMS: Oh, of course! The Minister of Finance says, 'The Federal Government. The Federal Government. ' That, Mr. Speaker, represents an increase in bankruptcies in Newfoundland this year over last year of 150 per cent. The Minister of Finance sits back in his seat over there and he laughs, he jokes, he cackles, he caws, and he says, blarne it on the Feds, bJ.ame it on the last Tory Administration, which were there for seventeen years.

The Government seems to be content to shine the light on all of those problems they think they can fool the people with by saying, we will blame this one on that one, and we will blame this one on that Government, we will blame this one on this Government. We do not have to take any responsibility ourselves. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is a very impressive statistic, a very impressive statistic for the Department of Development in its first year in office. From the first quarter of last year to the first quarter of this year, a 150 per cent increase in bankruptcies in Newfoundland. That is a very impressive statistic.

Mr. Speaker, on all those other Departments, of course, there are oodles of questions. The Minister of Mines and Energy, I am sure, will participate in this Concurrence Debate and he will tell us again, and perhaps be a bit more forthcoming, what is happening with discussions with the Province of Quebec. I really want to get at that one, with respect to hydro de~velopme~nt. In anstAJer l:o a ques t.ion frorn me in L28 May 3. 1990 Vol XLI the House one day he said, Things are going on very nicely, and a11 this, at the officials level, mind you. I think that is what he tAJas saying.

There is a great. friendly atmosphere. I can just see it now at the officials' table, the friendly atmosphere that exists between the Province of Quebec and the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. I would be interested in hearing the Minister, who ~ am sure we are now able to encourage to stand up and participate in this Debate. He will probably take the bait and get up for ten minutes and tell us a bit about that. I would like to l1ear it, but I l.I.Jant to know at. his level, at the Minister'.ial level, when was the last mE~eting you had with the Quebec Minister?

I th'.ink he said in the House it l.I.Jas six months ago. That is what he told me one day. yes. So. six months have gone by. Why have six man t.hs gone by since he has talked to his friend in Quebec. the Minisb:~r of Energy in Quebec? MR. HOGAN: There is no need to . MR. SIMMS: You can say that again, there is no need to. The Member fo1~ Placentia has hit the nail right on the head, there is no need to, and the Minister will tell h'.im why after this debate closes. The Minister will tell him why. MR. SPEA,KER: Order, please! The hon. gentleman's time has elapsed. MR. SIMMS: -----·-·-Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

I will get back to it a little late on. No. 26 R28

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Stephenville. MR . K. AYLWARD: (Inaudible) ten minutes, Mr. Speaker, of I am not sure what. To tell you the truth, I am really not sure. We are talking about Resource Estimates. I want to say the han. House Leader who wanted to be Leader but is not Leader, t.uho is partially Leader, had some words to say about our efforts when it comes to the economy; he had some words to say about our efforts when it comes to hydro development; he had some words to say about our efforts when it comes to Hibernia.

I have a few words to say about their performance when it comes to Hibernia, and hydro and the economy. I do not know if these words bring back any memories, but have not will be no more rings in my mind, Mr. Speaker, as words that were said and stated, as well as, the sun will shine again. MR . HOGAN : Yes, on April 20, 1989 . MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, on April 20, 1989. Yes, that is right. The same Government which did not even bring in a Budget or open the House last year before they called the election.

They were afraid to pay the Opposition Members who were there, because they might have a break or something, and be able to go and run in the election . Anyway, they decided they could not come in with a budget before they called the election, and this is the same Government which is now talking about hot.u we are doing and so on and so forth -· the same L29 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI Opposition, I mean . Mr. Speaker, I belieVE! the fonnE!r Government ran thlnee elections on Hibernia and related issues. WhE!n we got in there we looked at it and found little progress had bE!en made.

I mean, we have the Atlantic Accord, and the deal to get Hibernia was supposed to be in the works and everything was going to come. I remember the fateful day the Pre:~mier dE:!signatE!, at the time, announced it would be put off, and so on, the former Premier, the Leader oF the Opposition. Their efforts, obviously, were very small, although they tried. I t.uill give thE!fn crE!di t for trying, but they were not able to accomplish anything, and that Wt.'l.S the problem. Therefore, whE!n the electorate had a chance to look and review they said, Well, how many chances tAJere we supposed to provide?

How many oppor ·tuni bes were we supposed to provide? They decided well, it is time for a change. And they did the proper thing. Because this GovernmE!nt is now undertaking to get Hibernia underway, and it is tAJorking VE'!ry hard to do that; and it is doing it by providing information to l:he general public as to how things are going. Realistically, they are telling people; they are giving them the facts, they are giving them the information. ThE!Y are saying whether or not it is on the go, or if it is going to be on the go; here is why we have a problem, here is why we do not have a problem.

Those types of things are being said, not the huff and the puff that used to happen when the han. former Minister of Hydro there used to come in, in the last Government , and we in in Opposition used to wonder every day whether or not No. 26 1~29

they were going to have it. For three years this was going on, that we thought they were going to have Hibernia arrangements. Sitting over there, we were on the edges of our seats wondering every day if they were going to call the election, but they never got around to doing it because they never struck that deal. But this Government is undertaking to do that. I think the Minister of Energy has things well in hand, and I believe we are going to accomplish it.

I believe in his Estimates he indicated things are going very well, and that we are dealing with the problems which have existed in trying to put a deal together. And it is a very complicated deal. So, while I give credit to the former Government for attempting to get a deal - I know my colleagues do not want me to do that, but I will do it, I will give them credit for trying to get a deal, but they did not get it.

So, before they start accusing us of not being able to accomplish anything, I will tell them to hold on to their seats because we are going to accomplish a number of things in the next little while, and that is one of the major things I believe this Minister of Energy. who is very competent and has done a superb job thus far. is going to be able to accomplish, and he working very diligently to do so. He will be informing the House as to the progress being made. It is the same with the hydro talks I Mr. Speaker.

I mean, the Minister got up the other day and he indicated there werE! a number of discussions which have been held or are ongoing. and this is real information, not the stuff we L30 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI used to be fed before -· huff and puff and wonder:ing whether or not it was going to go. The fol"i'riE!l" I former Premier used to carne in every second and third day and say. We are almost there. We have almost got it; and watch out, because we are getting ready to roll again! 1 How many U.rnes dtd I hear that, I wonder?

So, I must say, tJJhen I listen to the Opposition House Leader talking the way he is talking, I would ask him to put a little bit of credibility in the criticism here. let us be fair whE!n it: comE•s to the criticism side of things. We a1"e going to try. We cannot guarantee anything. We nevc:~r can guarantee anything. But you tried your best, nevertheless, you put the effort into it, and WE! giVE! credit for the effort that. was put. The problem was with the progress that was made and the final result. Now we are working on the final result, and we are going to get there.

When it comes to tourism, For example, I have to say the hon. the Minister For Tourism tJJe have here is doing a superb job. For eight years. out in our D:is ·tl"ict, Bay St. George, we wanted a tourist chalet in the region and the former Government nE!Ver. never considered .it, put it astdE! and said. Go alAJay. we do not Wclnt to talk to you. In one year, this Government is going to be putting a new tourist chalet out in the Bay St. George region, a $2 50,000 capital expenditure, approved by the Minister - in one YE!ar, twelve months, and they cannot believe it out there.

They haue been looking for four or five things to help promote tourism; we went oul: there a couple of weeks ago and thE!re were four or five things laid right out. We said to the Chamber No. 26 R30

of Commerce, Here are the four or five things you WE!re looking for: Highway sign policy is going to be changed; theme signage is going to be done for different areas of the Province to help promote tourism, an excellent idea this Government is bringing in. I do not know why the former Government did not do it. It is a good idea, and I give credit to the new Minister, who is doing a superb job. The new tourism booklet being put out is for the entire Province, and in it is a beautiful picture of the Minister. It is a superb effort.

I have to say if the former Government had brought it in, I would be giving them credit today for this effort. It is superb! We are ranking with the other provinces when it comes to this. Our Minister of Tourism is doing a superb job. The people of Bay St. --c;eorge and the Chamber of Commerce have high praise him. They do not know what to do. They put a legitimate request forward, and they are being listened to. I believe that is very good.

I had the personal experience of attempting to get a new tourism chalet for our region, for tourism, but the former Ministers responsible for Tourism just ignored those requests. I know that for a fact. So I am very pleased this Government has been able to do that, and so are the people of our region, which is made up of three seats. I believe the han. the Member for St. George 1 s will concur. It is in the District of the Member for St. George 1 s, and he has done a good job in having it put there. It was a positive effort, and I believe it is going to mean progress for our region when it comes to tourism. Mr.

Speaker, there is a lot more L31 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI to talk about. In Forestry, we have a youth training program now with the Federal Government, a silviculture program; getting young people involved in training for silviculture, a superb program, number one, with young people getting involved. It is an excellent program. Young people have to get involved and become aware of the silviculture programs in this Province. They have to get involved and be trained properly. This Government has undertaken to do that. Again, it is an excellent initiative. The Minister of Forestry is to be commended for doing a good job.

I anticipate we will be able to sign a new Forestry AgreernE!nt. tJ..dth the Federa1 Gover·nment, if l:he Federal Government co-operates. When I hear the Opposition House Leader talking about bankruptcies and how they have gone up, trying to pin the blame on this Provincial Government, I cannot believe it. I cannot believe it! It is bE! yond me, Mr. Speaker. As a matter of fact, what he should do is call up Mln. Wilson, in Ottawa, and tell him to get his act together and get those interest rates down so this economy here can get going, li.ke the rest of Canada wants l:o get going, Mr. Speaker. It is time for Mr.

Wilson, the Finance Minister in Ottawa, to wake up. If he does not, the whole economy is going to be ruined, and I think everybody concurs with that. So, if the hon. the Opposition House Leader is going to get on with that type of criticism, he should call his buddies in Ottawa and say, Hey, people, let us get it together. You are losing it up there. You are losing it! rhe credibi1ity of the criticism comes into question when you see that No. 26 R3 1

type of stuff happening . I would say to the han . the Opposition House Leader that it is time to get the credibility down pat here, and let us be real with criticism. I watched Canada A.M. this morning. They had their political panel on, and the PC representatiVE!, who comes on with Mr . Kirby and tlie other gentleman from the NDP, admitted this morning they showed up at 15 per cent in the polls, and he admitted that, for the first time in the history of Canada, the interest rate is higher than the popularity of the present Government.

For the first time in the history of Canada, the interest rate is higher than the popularity of the present government. That has never happened before. He also admitted this morning that Mr.Wilson, the Minister of Finance for Canada, should change his policy, he should now tJ..Jake up, and he said it in his own words. He said he should lot..1.1er the interest rates and start letting the economy revive. He has not done it, Mr .Speaker, and I think it is really time. MR. DUMARESQUE : Come on Chr~tien! MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, come on Chretien. I think it is time the Federal Government woke up.

And when it comes to developing our resources and talking about the Resource Estimates, if we are going to develop these resources we have to have the ability to go ahead and do so, and not have to be damaged by the impact of such a disastrous Federal policy, which is really 1..32 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI starting to kill. I believe the Federal Government should wai<E! up on that policy. Even their own people are now saying it. I think it is time for them to do so . Mr. Speaker, I can keep going. It is the same with the Fisheries crisis which presently exists in this Province, and in Atlantic Canada.

This government is undertaking to do what it can, and is tackling the issue as best it can. But it needs, and it t.~.d.Jl need, the co-operation of th•~ Federal Government. I heard this morning that on Monday l~he Feder·al Government is going to announce a fisheries aid package in this province. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! The hon. Member's time is up . MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. It beE•n a pleasure . MR. DUMARESQUE : Great job! Another great job . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MS DUFF: Mr.Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : has The han. the Member ·for St . John's East. MS DUFF : Thank you , Mr . Speaker .

MS DUFF: We are coming to the l:!l1d oF thE! Concurrence Debates on the Resource Estimates Committee, and I arn very pleased to have an opportunity to have a Few words on the budgets of these very No. 26 R32

important Departments . A couple of days ago, I listened to the han. Member for Lewisporte, who very proudly brought in the report on these Resource Estimates, talking about what a wonderfully real and true Liberal budget this was. I hear this constantly, that everything this Government does is very liberal, and very fair, and very equitable, and very balanced. I would say he must have had his tongue very firmly placed in his chE!ek, if he could call the Budget Estimates for the Resource Departments liberal, unless his view of liberal is very different from my view of liberal.

Because, in fact, these five Departments together have been slashed by $22 million. Certainly that is not Webster • s Dictionary view of liberal. Now, some parts of the budget, I wou1d have to say, and I did say before, are somewhat more libera1, and particularly in the Health area, I think the Government did a fairly good job. It would appear every day that the Education budget was less and less liberal than it first appeared, but by no stretch of the imagination could anybody call those Departments• budgets liberal, unless Liberal only means it has a red cover on them.

I would like to comment on something else, in terms of the process of the Departmental Budget Estimates Committees. One of the Members, and I cannot remember which one, rE!marked, in terms of the role played by the han. the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island during the Estimates Committee hearings, that he was constantly leaping up and down L33 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI with Points of 01nde1n whenE!Ver Members from the Opposition were getting a little close in on questioning the Minister.

The funny thing is, we had the very same thing happen on the Social Policy Estimates, and I think the han. the Member For LaPoile served that particular function on our Committee. Every time the han. the MembE!r for Humber East, in her insightful, pe rs is tent, and very k nowl edg eab le questioning of the Ministers of Health, Social Services and Education, evl'::~ry time shE! got close to home, close to the bone, the Minister was rescued by the immediate interjection oF a Potnt of Order by the hon. the MmnbE!r for LaPoile.

Now, I do not know what happened on the Government Services Estimates Committee, but I imagine there was someone of that sort there, too. So I would have to say it must have been Liberal Government strategy to place an intimida ·tor on eVE!ry onE! of the Estima·tes Committees in case the Opposition Members got too close to home on the Estimates. Now the cuts in this particular

section certainly did not fall even-handedly on the various Departments. A couple of the Departments did get minor increases, barely enough to keep up with inflation. But theinE! are a number of cuts which I feel dre very serious and which I would like to comment on. One is in the Department of Environment and Lands, in the area of Environmental Control and Management. That

section alone lost $1.5 rrd.llion at a tirne whE!n the whole world is expressing conCE!rn about the environment. WI':~ are, in fact, in the decade of the environment, No. 26 R33

and there are certainly a lot of environmental problems in this Province. So, I really find it difficult to understand why the Government would have made $1.5 million cut in that area. The Department of Mines and Energy, I suppose, got the biggest whack. They went from $38 million to $25 million and that is a very fine Minister. I must say I am very impressed with his honesty and sincerity in his performance in the House. But his budget estimates seem to have gotten a very large slash, at least according to the budget document. H1e other Department that got badly hit is Development and Tourism.

Even with the $2,100,000 which was given to the Economic Recovery Team, which is included in the budget estimates, there is a significant cut in that entire Department. And that is at a time when I think everybody has acknowledged and spoke in glowing terms about the importance of the development potential of the tourism industry for Newfoundland. An industry where we are lagging very seriously behind other provinces in Atlantic Canada where, I think, it is acknowledged we need to do a lot in terms of facilities development and marketing if we are going to even maintain our market share.

And I have wondered if , in fact , the departure of the han. Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island as caucus chairman had anything to do with the niggardly and mean-minded way in which the Department of Development and Tourism budget was handled because I know that that han. gentleman has worked a lifetime in the hospitality industry, he is very knowledgeable about the industry, and he must have been profoundly disappointed L34- May 3, 1990 Vol XLI with the results of this budget as it relates to the tourism industry. I know the han.

Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island would be tAJell aware of some of the problems we h a v e . I k now an n u a 11 y the Province of Nova Scotia, a neighboring province, has managed to attract 1800 bus tour operators. Only 200 of them come across to Newfoundland. And I do not think it is because we are any less attractive, that we have any less history, or any less beauty to offer. It is simply because we have not made the appl~opria te marketing effort. And so it is very disappointing to find that so little has been done in this area .

Now, I think the han. the ME!HlbE!r for Lewisporte was waxing eloquent about the fact that his area ha s received a tourist chalet, and almost as if nothing had been done in previous years on the West Coast, and he was so happy that finally this Government lAJC"lS doing something.

Well, the truth of the matter is, and I think again t·:he hon. the ME!rnber for Mount Scio -· Bell Island, with whom I have worked on tourism commi ttees , knows full well that the major emphasis in tourism marketing, development, the dollars, the travel generator money for the last four or five years have gone to the great northern peninsula and the West Coast, to the to l:al neglect of Eastern Newfoundland. And I will say that in this House because I have said it to the former Minister of Tourism, who happened to be a Conservative, but it does not matter to me what side he ts on.

There placed tourism so much No. 26 wr-.:ts not enough ernphas:i.s on the development of on the East Coast because was being placed on the R34 ·

West Coast. And we were always told that this area was more depressed and that they had to do job creation there, but that our time would come on the East Coast. It was supposed to come last year. It has certainly not come this year, because I do not think there is one new initiative for this area in this Tourism budget. The entire budget as far as I can see for new initiatives for tourism generators is going to Marble Mountain. And I have no problem with Marble Mountain, it is a wonderful place. And for Newfoundlanders particularly, it gives them something to do in the winter.

If we can develop it into a year round resort, great. But I do think that there are attractions and potential on the East Coast, if you want to look just at where you are going to be able to maximize the dollar return on investment because of your population densities, because of the undeniable richness of history, because of existing cultural facilities on the East Coast, there is a tremendous potential there that has never been realized. I would hope that next year, at least, the han.

Minister of Tourism and Development will be a little bit more liberal on the East Coast, keeping in mind that most of the voters from St. John's, who got fed up with the Tories and kicked them out because they were not doing anything for this region, can just as quickly get fed up with the Liberals, and you will be gone very quickly. It is very disturbing, for instance, to hear that at least half of the Liberal Members For St . John • s are not supporting the L35 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI funding for the Outer Ring Road and the Roads for RaiJ. AgreernE!nt, Members who were electE!d for our Districts.

I would be very interested to know why the Minister of Finance, for instance, is opposed to giving to this region, the funding that has already been committed in the Roads for Rail Agreement, funding that is very important to the economic development of this region. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MS DUFF: ·oh, we know it is true, but hE! may not confirm it.

In the Fisheries Department: if ever there wes a year when one would have expected to see more liberal funding in a Budget for a Department like Fisheries, when we have just spent months, eVE!r sinCE! last September, talking about how serious the Fisheries crisis is and that it is only a resource crisis, and there is a need for bridge financing, you find there is a cut in the FisheriE!S budgE!t and, in fact, that the Governm('!nt has neither a program or ·resourcE!S to place on the table; it is constantly waiting for Ottawa to come up with a magic solution. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han.

Member's time is up. MS DUFF: How it flies when you are having fun! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : No. 26 1<3!:>

The han. the Minister of Mines and Energy. DR. GIBBONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is my pleasure, this afternoon, to rise and speak for a few minutes on the Resource Estimates. I want to start by thanking the Resource Estimates Committee, the Chairman, the Member for Lewis porte, the Vice-Chairman from Mount Pearl, and the other Members of the Committee who were present, as well as my two critics who were present, the Member for Labrador West and the Member for Green Bay, all of whom contributed greatly towards the debate. AN HON. MEMBER : You have two critics, do you? DR.

GIBBONS: Yes, of course, two critics, Mines and Energy. We had two hours of great debate. We were the first committee, I believe, to start the Estimates this year, and we had excellent questions from all 'round. I want to talk a little bit about some of these questions and some parts of my Department. It is the Department of Mines and Energy, and I like to start by always concentrating on the Mines part.

Most people seem to forget about the Mines part, and I always make a point of saying that the mining industry is the only one that is presently a billion dollar industry in this Province, and we have to appreciate the fact that we do have an indus try that is a billion dollar industry. Mining, of course, is only a billion dollar industry because of L36 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI the Labrador West iron ore contribution, as the Member of the Committee and my critic for Mines, is well aware. I appreciated the questions he had about the mining sector in that Estimates meeting that evening.

Last year, the million, and we projecting, over for 1990, so it year. value tAJas $973 expect, presently a billion dollars should bE! a good There are other sectors of the mining industry that are doing well. There are some sectors that are not doing well. A coup1E! of our mines were closed down briefly this winter , but both St. l ... alAJrenCE! Fluorspar and Baie Verte Asbestos are now back in operation, and I wish them well for the rest of this year and beyond, because both of them have considerable reserves left in the ground. Also, some netAJ industries are about to start in mining.

Over in western Newfoundland, in the Bay St. George area, on the Port au Port Peninsula, we are about to get our first shipment from the aggregate operation at Lower Cove. In the next few months, I am sure that the · Member for Stephenville, and Bay St. GeorgE!, will be with me when we send that first boat off to the Atlantic Seaboard with a load of aggregate. I would like to say a few words about mineral exploration and what is happening in mineral exploration right now. We are down a bit from the peak year of 1988, when it reached over $4 -0 million but, in 1989, it. tAJas about $32 miJ.lion.

This year, I arn anticipating about $30 rniJ.l ·ion. The reason for the reduction primari1y is related to taxation changes at the fE!deraJ. J.eve1, Mt". No. 26 R36

Speaker. In the last Budget, Mr. Wilson cancelled a program called the Canadian Exploration IncenU.ve Program. It is not going to have a big negative effect this YE!ar, and that is because a number of projects were grandfathered through for the 1990 field season. But, for 1991, right now, I have great, great concerns about what is going to happen to mineral exploration in the Province. We have to all address that. I hope we can do something to keep it at a high level. In the Department we are doing somethings to keep it at a high level. One of these things is in our Geological Survey Branch.

For this year, as we discussed in the Budget Estimates Committee, we are budgeting eighteen field surveys under the Department. Eighteen different field surveys scattered throughout Newfoundland and Labrador. We are also continuing to negotiate with Energy, Mines and Resources Ottawa to try to put a new Mineral Development Agreement in place. I hope that will also help us to do further surveys and keep the industry and the exploration sector healthy and active. MS COWAN: Hear, hear! DR. GIBBONS : As my time is running along, I would like to switch now to one of the energy sectors.

I will talk first about the hydro energy sector because the latest speaker from St. John 1 s East raised a question about a major, major cut in my budget this year. And I would like to address what she said . Yes, the Energy 1 s million L37 Department of Mines Budget is down from in 1989 - 1990 to and $38 $25 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI million in 1990 - 1991. TheinE! is one big reason For that, and that is, the cancellation of some electrical subsidies to the PDD and to industrial customers, particularly the subsidy that was being paid in Long Harbour in the industrial case .

My net budget in 1990- 1991, as I calculated, is $12,979,300 right now. My net budget last year, net of the electrical subsidi~s was $10,933,200. So actually, we arE! showing a $2 million increas~':! in my budget, and it. is just the subsidies For electrical energy that are down. I think we are still going to do well in our Department in terms of thE! operating funds and the projects that we are carrying out. Now a little bit on hydro, as the Member For Grand Falls likes to continue to emphasize.

I have said all there is really to be said at this time in thE! previous answers that I have given the Member for Grand Falls. We are continuing to have meetings. Our next meeting will be next week. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). DR. GIBBONS : At the negotiating team level . This is where the action is. It is at the negotiating team lE!Vel. They are having their next meeting in the next week. There will be further meetings fro~ there. We are still making progress and I am pleased with what is happening. I hope that by this fall I can come to this House and say, we have reached a certain stage - a letter of intent.

So lE!t us all keep our fingers crossed, yes , because one nE!VE!r knows until you get there. But we are making No. 26 R37

progress and we are pleased with the progress that we are making. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). DR. GIBBONS: It is not him actually, it is a her. I have not been talking to her recently but we have had no need to have discussions at this time. When we get an opportunity we will have a discussion. The meetings are going welJ. and as I said the next one is coming in a very few days. On the hydro side, Labrador is not everything. We do have things happening in the Province.

As I announced last Friday morning, hydro has changed its policy on small hydro development, to try to encourage small hydro development in the Province to help us with our short-term and medium-term needs for the next decade. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) . DR. GIBBONS : We had some discussions on that but it was the hydro board that made the decision. We hope this will stimulate some industrial activity in the Province and also provide some electricity to help our needs over the next five to ten years. I am sure that some companies will come forward with good projects.

I know we have had a lot of attention since last Friday. We have had numerous telephone calls. I am hoping that in the next few weeks somebody will carne up with some firm proposal that we can get on with over the next year or two. Switching away from hydro, in the time that I have left I will say a few words about offshore. In the L38 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI offshore, maybe the first thing I should say is relative to the offshore drilling. Offshore drilling is on again. It is on again. There is one well being drilled right now.

No thanks to the ice pack this year which has delayed the drilling considerably over the last month or so, but it is on again, and I arn anticipating and hoping that there will be at least one or two other weLLs drilled before this year is out. I have no confirmation now, but I arn optimistic right now because of things I do know; that v.Je tAJi.ll have at least one other if not two o the 1n s d r i 11 e d in 1 9 9 0 . T h a l: tAli 11 keep that industry active this year. It will keep the service sector related to that industry active, and be well positionE!d for 1991.

On Hibernia, I have bE!E!n giving updates regularly in this House as has the Premier been giving updates regularly in this House. We are continuing to make progress. The latest progress you all saw a few days ago when we tabled for first reading the legislation that is necessary to implement the Hibernia Agreerne n t. We tabled three pieces of legislation that wi 11 a1low us to sign the Hibernia agreement when it is done. We hope that everything is going to be on

schedule and as we pass the legislation in this session everything else will be done in Ottawa as well. The Federal side has their legislation in Committee stage and they are approximately where we are in terms of the legislation necessary to implement the Hibernia agreement. We still have not reached the final position on the benefits package, we are still No. 26 R38

discussing that. But I do hope that ouer the next few days we will reach some agreement on the benefits package. The Member for Green Bay drew particular attention to the benefits package and talked about the super module. I am not going to get into the details of which one and what is in each. But what is in any super module certainly is equivalent quality and quantity of work, plus some other components to what was in the main support · frame that was in the statement of principles. So Members of this han. House, ladies and gentlemen, certainly on Hibernia we are making progress and I would hope that we can stay on

schedule for a mid-1990 signing. Beyond Hibernia there is other interests in the offshore. In my latest discussions with Petro-Canada they are uery interested in Terra Noua, and I hope that during 1990 they will make a decision on the submission of a development plan for the Terra Noua oilfield, which will be No. 2 for us. As we moue towards the year 2000 I can see us making considerable progress on hydro from Labrador. I can see us approaching and competing with Alberta in terms of our oil production from the offshore.

Because with Hibernia, with Terra Noua, and with the others, we certainly will be in the 200,000 barrE:1l per day range by the year 2000. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. Member 1 s time is up . AN HON. MEMBER: By leaue! L39 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI MR. A. SNOW: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Menihek . MR. A. SNOW: Thank you uery much. I am sure ·the han. Member for St.

John 1 s West will be able to haue an opportunity to elaborate a bit more on his Department and hopefully answer a few questions that I may pose during this Concurrence Debate on the Resource Departments, in particular his Department of Mines and Energy.

It is with quite a bit of interest I noted he expressed the amount of contribution that Western Lab1nado1n makes to the general economy of this Province and, in fact, they produce, when I say 1 they 1 l:he people of Western Labrador in operation of the mines, produce about three-quarters of that particular mining industry, about $700 rrd11ion out of what hE! talks about a $1 billion industry. So about 70 per cent of the mining wealth of this Province that is generated is produced in the District of Menihek.

Of course. that is not produced by trucks or pieces of equipment, that is produce!d by people tAJorking in Western Labrador, people who generally came from the Island portion of ·the Province. and who had for years parU.cipated in ·travelling back and forth, needed subsidies in the air travel, and he sat quietly by as the Minister of Mines, recognizing the contribution that employees make - MR. SIMMS: Has he euer beE:'n up there by the way? MR. A. SNOW : No. 26 1~3 9

- to the production in the mines. he sat idly by and allowed the Conservative Member for St. John 1 s Centre, the hon. Minister of Finance to gut the Labrador Travel Subsidy Programs and, of course, hurt the mining industry per se, because it cos t s them now more to travel back and forth. I will tell the hon. the Minister of Finance why that hurts the mining industry in Western Labrador. It is because the miners have to take $800 to send one of their sons or daughters out here to St. John 1 s to ·participate in an athletic event. That is why it hurts the mining industry.

That is why the hon. the Minister of Finance does not understand it. He lives in St. John 1 s and he can walk over to a school gym and watch the kids participate. In Labrador they have to fly and spend $'700 to get out here to participate. It is unfortunate that the hon. the Minister of Finance does not understand the geography of this Province. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I wonder if the hon. Member could take his seat for a minute. It is 4:00 o 1 clock and I want to read the questions for the Late Show this afternoon. The first question is: Mr.

Speaker, I am not satisfied with the answers ·given by the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, re: the spray program. From the hon. the Member for Humber Valley. Mr. Speaker, I am dissatisfied with the answer given to me today by the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations in response to my question re, the Employment Generation Program. From the hon. the Member for Fogo. LLJ.o May 3, 1990 Vol XLI Mr. SpeakE!r, I advise you that I would like to arn not satisfied with the answer question on the universal fisheries the hon. the Member -The Capes. MR. SPEAKER: given to my status of plants. From for St.

Mary 1 s The hon. the Member for Menihek . MR. A. SNOW: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to congratulatE! thE! MEHnber for Lewisporte on presenting his report and for the way he conducted the Budget Estimates in the Department of Mines and Energy. I am pleased to se1?., as I suggested earlier, how the Minister recognized the contribution of mines to the general economy of this Province, and in particular the contribution of the people of Western Labrador into the economy of this Province. I am disappointed, in discussions with the Minister, that he does not have more money available for exploraU.on.

In my District of Wabush and Labrador City we live next door to the Province of Quebec, and in that particular area about twenty-five miles from Labrador City, the!re is a new mine being deVE!loped. a graphite deposit, being developed in the Province of Quebec. The1~e has been about $7 million spent there so far over the last two years, and they expect that this year there will be a further $20 to $30 million spent. It will probably open up a mine that wil.l employ another 150 to 200 people.

It is unfortunate that this Province does not see fit to put funds into mineral explorati.on, as the Province of Quebec does, to aid the actual exploration for minerals. We have a particular No. 26 R40

.!. mineral deposit, a graphite deposit, about fifteen rniJ.es from Labrador City - Wabush, easily accessible by transportation routes that are already in place - a highway. This would provide immediate employment, and hopefully, in future, would provide a new mineral deposit development in Labrador. Of course, this particular Government has seen fit not to put money into exploration, and I am 'very disappointed in that, and so are the people in Western Labrador. MR. BAKER: The previous Administration put their money into cucumber exploration. MR. A.

SNOW: The previous Adminis·tration may indeed have put some funds into cucumber exploration, as the han. Member for Gander~ has suggested, but what I am suggesting to him, the han. President of Treasury Board, is that they, his Administration, put some money into mining exploration. Not what was d one 1 as t y ear , or f i v e y ears ago, but what should be done today, tomorrow, and next year. The han. Minister of Mines and Energy also talked about his commitment to the further development of hydro development in this Province. Of course, as any han.

Member of this House knows, hydro development in this Province means future development in Labrador, more specifically the Lower Churchill development. He talked about how well the talks were going between the officials of this Province and the officials of the Province of Quebec in negotiating this particular development. It is interesting to note, of L4-1 May 3, 1990 Vol XLI .. course, that there has not bE:1en an EIS done on the Lower Churchill development.

I would question the Minister - I hope hE! is listening in the Common Room - hh is not here in the House so I know he is out there in the Common Room listening to it. I would wonde1n how this is going to generate any employment within the next immediate future of three, four, or five years, this Lower Churchill development, if indeed there is no EIS done yet. This environmental impact statement would have to be done. I wouJ.d suspect a project of the magnitude of the Lower Churchill deVE!loprnent would require an EIS that would probably take tiAJO, three, or four years to do.

Of course if that statement is not done, there wilJ. not be any start on the actual physical construction of a Lower Churchill development, and we all recognize that /this would rnean tremendous employment in Labrador, and thus employ peopJ.e, not just from the Island portion of the Province, but employ people frorn Labrador as well.

I hope, when the han. the Minister of Mines and Energy speaks again he will address that particular question; it is something a lot of people in this Province are wondering, because it gives the illusion, when he talks about how the officials arE! meeU .ng, and that they may indeed have a Hydro Bill within a couple of months, that people are anticipating that there could be employment there within as short a period as six or eight months, or maybe eVE!n a year, when. in truth, there could not be E!!Tiployment if thE!re is no EIS done, because that would take three or four years.

I arn not sure, as I suggestE!d, you could have a project of this No. 26 R4-1

particular magnitude done without a thorough EIS. I would also suggest that W~1E!n they arr:1 having discussions on the actual construction of this particular project there has to be an allowance made, when this power is being generated, not just to transmit power to the Island portion of the Province or to sell it to Hydro Quebec for transmission through the ~rovince of Quebec for sale in New Hampshire or Netu York, but there has to be some consideration for utilization of the power within Labrador.

I would hope the Department of Mines and Energy, with their economists, would do a study, an economic analysis of the construction of the transmission line from the Labrador portion of the Province to the Island. I question whether or not the proper analysis has been done in the sense of cost effectiveness of the utilization of the power within Labrador. rather than just transmitting that power for sale down through Quebec and into the United States, or, indeed, down here to the Island portion of the Province. So I question whether or not they should be building a transmission line per se.

That is one Department I had a specific interest in, and it concerns a lot of residents in Western Labrador, in the Resource Estimates. Another one, of course, we have quite a bit of concern about in Western Labrador and Mehihek. and the towns of Labrador City and Wabush. is the Department of Environment and Lands. We have two wildlife enforcement officers in Western Labrador. They patrol an area of about 28,000 square miles. MR. BAKER: ThE:~Y rnust be sorne good, to patrol L4-2 May 3. 1990 Vol XLI that much . MR. A. SNOW: Th .ati'"Se_x.actly what I am about: to bring up.

The han. the President of Treasury Board says you have to be some good to patrol that much. Well, they are good. They are good. but they need sorne good resources to be able to do th<-:>ir job better. I arn glad that Member, the person who controls the pursE! strings, sits idly by in Gander and watches tens of people, probably even hundreds - MR. SIMMS : Tens of people? MR. A. SNOW: Many. Not just one or tlo~Jo wildlife officers, but tens - MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! The han. Member's time is up. MR. A. SNOW: I will have to go again . you very much, Mr . Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER: Thank The han. the Membe1n for L.aPoile . MR. RAMSAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It gives me pleasure to rise today in the Budget Estimates Concurrence Debates on the resource sector. I had the honour of replacing one of our Members during one of the Budget Estimates Hearings, and it lo~Jas ve1ny enjoyable. I was lo~Ji th the Minister of Mines and Ener·gy. and quite a few things were discussed, sorne of note, or course, the Hibernia situation and several other things. Some questions wPr'e as ked. I I< not.o.J I as I< ed one about the possibility of using wi .nclrnil1s No. 26 RL~2

for the generation of electricity. Maybe one in here would probably keep the whole Government going anyway, supporting some of the hot air that floats around. Of course, the technology has not been developed yet to allow us to harness windmill power, but it IJ.Jill in the future, as technology develops with advances in super conductors. and all these variety of new advancements in physics and physical science should allow us to improve the transmission of Hydro power. Under the Department of Development therE! are a couple of comments I IJ.Jant to make.

The Department of Development has bt:~en quite reasonable to the District of LaPoile, with improvements that have been announced in the last couple of years for the Tourist Information Centre on the Trans-Canada Highway just outside Port aux Basques. Luckily, with the Tourist Information Centre in the place it is currently situated, it will still be able to be utilized by the Trans-Canada traffic leaving the gulf ferry. The Department of Development has also assisted us in new efforts in developing new industrial mall space in the community.

Through the assistance of some of the officials of the Department, who sit on the Community Diversification Fund Management Committee, they have given us some assistance in approving the effort to have the transfer shed refurbished. Now, the Federal Government have also called on and have come through quite substantially, I might add, with monies for the conversion of this transfer shed, which, of course, is no longer in use because of the closure of the railway. And the Ltn May 3. 1990 Vol XLI courSE! is currently unciE~riJ.Jay. thE! way it was decided they would train the individuals who w