PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 56 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, MAY 11: 1971 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

May 17, 1971 The House met at 3 p.m, Hr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape no, 662 Page 1 MR. A, J, MURPHY: (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Hr. Speaker, before ve go into the business of the House, I would like to rise on a matter of privilege.

I feel it is a matter of personal privilege because I have the honour to represent the official Opposition, Statements made on an analysis yesterday by the hon, Minister of Community and Social Development, when he said that.through obstruction, the House could not bring in very important legislation, Now I do not think that this is absolutely right because during the past week or ten days the Leader of the House has not introduced one piece of legislation, It is a complete distortion of the actual facts, We are ready at any time, Sir, to consider whatever the Leader of the House brings in.

I think this vas a statement that was not in effect true, BON, J, R. SMALLWOOD (Premier): If I may say a word to the point of privilege which I think perhaps the Leader of the Opposition did not intend to be a point of personal privilege, I would say that everything that has come before the House virtually has been brought by the Leader of the House, It is all Government business that has been brought before the House.

The leader of the Bouse may bring fotvard many, many individual bits of legislation or he may bring the estimates, The estimates are legislation, Everytime we pass this, it is passing legislation, so it is Government business. I do not think it can be said that the Leader of the House has not brought forward Government business. He has brought all kinds of it here.up to our chins, up to our eyebrows, every day, has he not? I mean you do not draw a distinction between bills and eatigates. Estimates have to be gathered up in one final Lill in the end, Appropriation Bill, which the House is asked to pass.

If it does, the Governor signs it and it is passed. Leading up to that there are thousands of details and when these are brought before the Committee , .,... ,..,.., l, ' ' i

Hay 17, 1971 Tape no. 662 Mr. Smallwood. of Supply and finally before the House that is legislation. It is legislation for the House. Page 2 Mi. MURPHY: Why would the Leader of the Rouse say that we will have legislation in the morning, estimates in the afternoon? MR. SMALLWOOD: It is all legislation. That is only a convenient - it is just like the difference between Prime Minister and Premier. They both mean exactly the same. Supply is legislation. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, on that point of privilege, my point is that a misleading statement was made.

The House has already dealt with a considerable a1110unt of legislation. There has been no delay in dealing with it, The onl-, reason that we have not dealt with . leaielation during the last two weeks is because the Government have not called legislation, They are now calliJig the estillates. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is legislation. MR. CROSBIE: There has been no obstruction. MR,· SMALLWOOD: That is legislation. MR. CROSBIE: Well not as the public understands it.

There has been no important legislation tabled in this Hous~ now,th,at is being obstructed in anyway except{by any one) except for the fact that the Government have not called it. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if I may rise for just one point. It is with reference to a report in Saturday's edition of the ''Daily News" where there is a statement attributed to me on page (1). It is completely incorrect. Because I gather it had caused a lot of public controversy. I would like to correct it.

The paper quotes me, Sir, as saying that the site for the new hospital at Carbonear had not yet been - as a matter of fact it says, "has now yet been chosen." I do not know what that means gramatically or if it means anything gramatically. But the clear . inference 3778

May 17 1 1971 Tape no. 662 Page 3 Mr, Roberts. from this that has been drawn by many people, Your Honour. is that the site for the hospital has not yet been chosen. I have no recollection of saying that. Indeed my recollection from the notes I have and I listened to the tapes kept by the Hansard Office. It says quite clearly the sight for the hospital has been chosen. Indeed, we have spent nearly $100 1 000 in connection with that site. We looked at four separate sites, We chose one which is the site, I believe, near an old garage on Saddle Hill in Carbonear.

I only rise on it, Your Honour, because apparently a number of people have read the newspaper (It gets wide circulation) and have concluded from it that the site had not been chosen. The site has been chosen, Sir. Perhaps the newspaper concemed can make a correction. There was some back talk in the Chamber when we were on .that, Mr. Speaker. The plans are partially drawn. MR. SMALLWOOD: The hon. member for St. John's West said that I had turned the sod and I said that I had not. He corrected himself and ilaid, my wife. I said, "right." That is not saying that we have not chosen.

That is saying that we have chosen. PRESENTING PETITIONS. MR. SMALLWOOD: Petitions, did I hear Your Honour say, petitions? MR. SPEAKER: Yes. MR. SMALLWOOD: I am paying attention to various things that are happening. I have the honour to present a petition from residents I .. "I in the Eastern part of the great Codroy, Great Codroy and the settlement of O'Regan's in the district of St. George.!s. I do this with great pleasure because it is from the district of St. George's, which was represented by my dear colleague and friend, the late William J.

Keough,and because it comes, in part, from the settlement of O1Regan 1 s which is the native home of one of the grandest ladies that ever lived on Newfoundland's soil. I refer to Mrs. Genieve Dolan,with whom I conducted correspondence for many years and met her for. the firat time in my life three or four years ago. Mrs. Genieve Dolan is a genius .. if ever there was one in the field of writing. She wrote me for many years, when I conducted .my programme as barrel man. So anything from O'Regan's gets my instant 3779

May 17, 1971 662 Page 4 MR.

SMALLWOOD. attention, The petitioners, Your Honour, request to have included in the road paving programme for the Codroy Valley this year that portion of road leading in an easterly direction from Grand River Bridge through the eastern part of Great Codroy and through the settlement of O'Regan's, a distance of 4.3 miles, Now their reasons for this request are: That the medical doctor's clinic is located on this road; that they have some sixty licenced vehicles on that road; that seventy students are transported daily over the entire distance of that road; that they have one of the heaviest tourist pay loads from hunting and fishing in the whole of the Province and which they say could be even greater if there was an all-weather road and that finally the majority of residents are self-supporting by farming and wood producing as well as catering to tourists.

I must say that it strikes a very soft spot in my heart to hear that they live or many of them live by f~rming. I think that my hon. colleague, the Minister of Highways,should have a very good answer.if he does not do this. Be should have a very good explanation. To be quite honest, Mr. Speaker, I cannot imagine how he could have a good explanation for not paving this short stretch of road. Of course, if he did not have the money, that might be accepted in some quarters as a fairly reasonable explanation. These petitioners pray for the paving of that

section of road. I must say that they have my hearty support. I beg leave to lay the petition on the table of the House so that it may be referred to the department to which it relates. I expect the ueader of the Opposition to give it his ardent support. MR. MURPHY: I definitely do, Mr. Speaker and with reference to thi~ the Premier fails to understand why. the prayer of the petition should not be answered, I.feel the same way about many hundreds of petitions that have

Hay 17, 1971 Mr. MuTphy. Tape nol 662 Page 5 been presented in this House. Lack of 1110ney maybe a good reason for a lot of them but being able to afford it is another matter, I think we can afford it, if we save our money. But, Mr. Speaker, we do sincerely support the prayer of this petition. as the Premier so ably pointed out• It is a very important piece of road and the people in the area are earning a living from farming. There are a school bus and a doctor's clinic in that particular area.

So I am sure that this very important piece of road should receive the very special attention of the Minister of Highways. On otion petition received. ANSWERS TO QUESJJQ~ _M2. SMALLWOOD. Mr. Speaker, if Your Honour will excuse me, I think that l have an answer here. I did have. I guess I left it on my desk. Yes, I am sorry, Mr. Speaker I have not got one. BON. R. STARKES (MINISTER OF BIGmlAYS): Mr • . Speaker, I have the answer to Question No. 426,on the Order Paper of April 13. asked by the hon. member for Burin. I wish to tabla that answer. And the Question No. S40, I would like to table the answer.

It is asked by the hon. member for Burin,on the Order Paper of May l. MR. H. COLLINS: ~r. Speaker, before we get into Orders of the Day, 1 have a question fo1: the Minister of Community and Social Development. In due of the fact that the season for the beginning of construction project is now upon us and many municipalities are anxious to know what funds might be available from DREE for municipal projects, can the minister indicate to the Rouse the progress of the DREE Programme? When can we expect his signature of it in Ottawa? What is involved for municipalities across Newfoundland? RON. W. N.

ROWE (MINISTER OF CO~ITY AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENTl Very briefly, Mr. Speaker, on the matter, I canno~ give any information at all until such an agreement is signed. On the first part of the question,as to when, All I 3781

May 17, 1971 Page 6 Hr. Rove (W,N.) can say is that the agreement vill be signed once it is finally agreed to by thi• Government and gets finally through the Treasury Board in Ottawa and is signed and agreed to by the Government in Ottawa and signed by Hr. Marchand, I hope that will be very shortly. I have no absolute assurance as to when it can be done. I hope that it will be very shortly, HR. COLLINS: A supplementary question, Hr. Speaker. The progral!ID.e,according to the minister,was supposed to have been signed in January, then February, then March and then April and then Hay.

Is there a delay in the Province or is the delay in Ottawa? Ras Ottawas got the confidence in this Government? Are they refusing to sign the agreement? MR, MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, just before Orders of the Day, on this matter of information. With reference to a question I asked with reference to the salmon fishery re1ulations, I received an answer from the hon. Minister of Fisheries. What date vas the hon, Minister of Fisheries wired? Gould the hon. minister tell me? Was it February 14? MR. VINSOR: February 14. MR. MURPHY: February 14 and regJl.ations March 12. MR. COLLINS: Hr.

Speaker, I understand that the Premier was in Gander over the weekend. I wnnder would he give us a report on his trip out there? I understand that the Goldfarb Report vas not all that encouraging for him. HR. SMALLWOOD: The hon. gentleman vill know the results later. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I understand that a Provincial Government helicopter was used to go into Gander. Was the Premier in on political business or was it Government business? HR. S~LWOOD: It was business of the Government of this Province. HR. COLLINS: That is not what I heard, Mr.

Speaker, On motion that the Rouse go into Committee of the ~'hole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. HR. CROSBIE: Before we proceed to the estimates, could the Minister of Justice indicate what our business is going to be this week? Is it going to be estiQates all veek, or what is the order of business? 37~2

May 1.,7. 1971 Tape no.662 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! I think we finished Fisheries. MR. CURTIS: Labour? All right, go ahead. Page 7 MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, the hon, member for Labrador West is not back yet so would .the hon. Minister of Justice wait to call Labrador Affairs. I believe his plane gets in 5 p.m. He would like to speak on that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item (16) - Labour, Page 69. On 16-01-01. HON. S. A. NEARl(Acting Minister of Labour) Two years ago, Kr.

Chairman, this House provided for the setting up of a Provincial Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations but the Act was never proclaimed. The change over, Hr. Chairman, to me is m~re than just a change in name alone. It involves new Provincial responsibilities in helping to get jobs,in a highly-competitive employment; market,for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. We know, Mr. Chairman that on a national basis, Canada Manpower is trying to find jobs for all Canadians and,vbere necessary,to provide them with skills.

But we also know, Sir, that a national department often impedes its own efforts by the tangle of red tape which it develops in an effort to make sure that no one group or agent has an advantage over the other. Therefore, sir, to provide a firm foundation for the new department,before we make the change over, we have pretty well,over the past year or so,set up the Industrial Relations Branch,by building on the traditional role of the Department of Labour 1 with some shuffling in staff. Before we set up a heavy investment, however, in personnel, it would seem sensible, Mr.

Chairman, to test a number of proposed functions of the new department,which will fully use the Occupational Training Act for our people.· We want tb test market researching, the training needs and the employment potential of both young and old people coming out of cur school and our University and the older groups of our jobless, especially the seasonal jobless, Mr. Chairma0. 3783

May 17, 1971 Tape no. 662 Page 8 Mr. Neary. nur late and wonderful colleague, Mr. Chairman, the hon. V. J. Keough, rather than rush into this new branch with its huge sweeping responsibilities and set up an expensive staff who might not be all suited to the real functions of the branch, he was in the process at the time of his death of carrying out exploratory progra11111es,to be certain of goals and objectives.Before asking Treasury Board for funds 1 to invest in the right kind of staff to help reach these goals and objectives that he had set for himself.

So, I thought that I should provide this to the co11111ittee by way of explanation before we get into the estimates, Mr. Chairmm;p.. I will be happy to answer any questions that I can on the Department of Labour. If I cannot answer the questions, I have officials,sitting in the Coamon Room,who will be quite willing to give me the information. I hopP the committee will bear with me, because I am only keeping the seat warm in this department 1 and I will try to provide all the information that I can. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, in this first vote of the Department of Labour, there a~e some points th~t i would like to bring up,which the minister might deal with. First, Mr. Chairman, 1 wonder if the minister gets a chance, will he give us some explanatinn of the recent dispute at Newfoundland Farm -Products Limited, which is a Crown corporation? We heard an annoucement,several weeks before the House of Assembly opened,that the Government were introducing a concept of equal pay for men and women. I believe it was stated that in Government service, after April 1, 1971, equal pay for men and women would be instituted.

Now 1 have seen no sign of that concept in the estimates,t6 date, Mr. Chairman nor have I heard any estimate of what it is going to cest the Government to apply that principle to all Government employees. The statement was made that equal pay for men and women in the Newfoundland Government service would commence on April 1, 1971. Then when we look at one of the Crown corporations, Newfoundland Farm Products Limited, we were told or at least it is reported in the press , in this case, the "Evening Telegram", Hay 14, 1971, in a situation there,where the workers 37~4

May 17, 1971 Tape no. 662 Page 9 Mr. Crosbie there are tmorganized. They have no tmion. They walked off the job last Friday. They were not - well it waa a strike because of collective ,· action of the employees. If they leave their work, it is a strike. They were told,in this "EveninR Telegram"

article of Hay 14,that one of the female workers said that she had been working for the co-operative for seven years and,two weeks ago 1 ; was changed from one job to another and had an hourly pay loss from $1.30 to $1.10 - from $1.30 an hour to $1.10. Now I believe the minimum wage for men in this Province, at the present time, is $1.25 an hour. The minimum wage for women, I believe, is $1.00 an hour. The lady in question, if she is gett~ng $1.10 an hour, is getting $.10 above what the law requires for women, but $ .15 an hour less than what the law requires for men.

It certainly is not ··the concept of equal pay for men and women doing the same type or nature of work. Certainly, it is not - a Government Crown Corporation is not showing any kind of an example in· paying at least the minimum wa·ge which is set for men. It is not even paying that minimum wage to women, employees of the Farm Products Corporation. So, Mr. Chairman, I think we are due an explanation as to just what the Government are doing?

Are the Government carrying out the Premier's announcement of about six or seven weeks ago that,as from April 1, 1971, there would be equal pay for men and women in Government service or not! There is no evidence of that as yet. I think that the minister should inform us as to just what is planned in that direction, When 1• it going to go into effect? MR. NEARY: Equal pay for men and women in the same establishment? HR. CROSBIE: Equal pay for men and woman doing the same type of work or nature of work. HR. NEARY: In the same establishment. MR. SMALLWOOD: In the same establish;ment, 3785

May 17, 1971 Tape no. 662 Page MR. CROSBJE When you say equal pay fbt men and women doing the same nature of work, when you say equal pay for men and women that is what I mean. That is the shorthand form of saying that. 10 I remember seeing some figures when I was in the Department of Health, Mr. Chairman, that to institute that policy in the Department of Health, which is the biggest employer of the Govemment, I believe there are 2,200 employees in Health, it would cost the Government, I think, ·1t was between $750,000 and $1 million a year. There are 2,269 employees in the Department of Health.

There is no sign of that large an increase in the estimates of the Departaent of Health for salaries. Obviously this Crown corporation, Newfotmdland Farm Products Limited, does not appear to be paying men and women the same pay for the same kind of work. In fact women down there are being paid as low as $1.10 an hour. Now the law at: present, Mr. Chairman, only requires women to :t,e paid $1.10 and men $1.25. But surely, if the Government have announced a new policy, it does not need to wait for the law to be implemented.

It shou1d eet an example by immediately instituting this conc~pt and by paying all of its employees at least $1.25 an hour which is the minimum wage for men. At this Farm Products Corporation, most of the employees are eaming between $1.10 and $2.00 an hour. This is certainly not big pay. They have been trying to get a raise they say for two or three months. But every time they ask management, they are told that it is before the board. Now what board it is supposed to be before, I do not know.

The minister in the House here last Friday say that what the holdup was that the jobs down there had not been classified by the public administration division of Govemment. But I say so what! Surely, you cannot expect employees of that Crown corporation to wait month after month after month to have their jobs classified. The classification can come later. It should be treated as an emergency and done now. Another employee, Mr. Chairman, said that he had been attending a

May 17, 197 l Tape no:( 662 Page 11 Mr. Crosbie Canada Manpower Centre School and was receiving $63 a week and that is why he attended school. Now he says that he ia receiving less than that when he has got a full-time job with Newfoundland Fani Products Corporation. Well what kind of an example is this for the Government to set the employees of this Province7 Here is a man, when attending school, gets a student's allowance and is able to make more money a week than when be is working full time down at Pepperrell 1 in a Crown corporation.

Then the minister said that if these men joined the union , that is the hon. Minister of Labour __ the hon. Minister of Minea, Agriculture and Resources '[88 quoted as saying then they I that if they are members of an organized group such as 1 an , I I, ' could be dealt with,but it would be very hard to deal W!ith l / union, them. I I if they did not form a union. Why, Mr. Chairman? Surely these e 1 ighty-two ! -. people who quit work had some kind of spokesman for them. It would I be easier if they had a union.

But apparently conditions are so bad at the Newfoundland Fam Products Corporation at Pleasantville, th~t these people, unorganized, which is very unusual,all determined to quit their work. So obviously their working conditions and pay in that branch of the Government service are most unsatisfactory. I would like to hear from the minister on that and as to what is being done. We know that,in today's paper,these workers have been rehired except for two who left of th~ir own volition.

Otherwise they would have been rehired •• I think the minister should now deal with that and the minister should inform the House that the minimum wage,at least, $1.25 an hour,is going to be paid every one who works at that plant down there or who works in Government service at all. Now as I recall, Mr. Chairman, when the ~remier made his announcement, there about two weeks before the HousP was open, he said that this would be. instituted in Government service from April 1, 1971. I believe he said that in about six months time or some period of time (I do not have a clipping here. I could not find 3787

'1ay 17 • 1971 Tape no. 662 Page 12 Kr. Crqsbie my clippi11:g on it) that the conce11t of equal pay for , men and women would be legislative throughout the Provi ·nce or would come into effect throuihout the Province,but emplo,e-r• were given a period of six months to ge-t ready for this. Now, Mr. Chairman, as an.yone .knovs who has anv experience in this utter, everything is going to depend on bow that decisiOD is implemented. because just 3788

May 17, 1971, Tape 663, Page 1 -- apb Afternoon. MR. CROSBIE: what is the same kind and nature of work for both men and women is the all important factor. It will be very easy to get around this concept,if an employer can say that the woman is doing work of a different kind than the man is doing. It is not only the law that is important, it is the administration of that law and the way the law is checked on.

The bald statement that this is going to apply in the civil service can mean exactly nothing,if it is not implemented with vigor and enthusiasm, because the Government is going to decide whether the woman is doing the same kind, nature and quality of work a.s the man. · This statement, which sounded wonderful, can mean very little. I would like to hear from the minister just what the plans are. How long is it before equal pay for men and women doing the same kind and quality of work is going to be implemented? When it is implemented, how is it goinq to be enforced by the Government?

What is being done by the Government to enforce it now in Government employment itself? It was supposed to start April 1, 1971, and this is now seven weeks later. Obviously, this either means something or it means nothing. There is an editorial in the "Evening Telegram" of March 5, which pointed out - it was headed, "What Is Equal Work?" Just to quote that, it said; "too vague, too indefinite is how the Premier's statement on minimum wages can be described.

Bven he did not seem to know what he was talking about, and was not sure how or where the equal pay, equal work principle would apply." That is exactly the impression I got from watching the Premier on those newscasts. "'It appears to be a hurried decision, not given the proper forethought, but rushed into the news to make a political gain at the moment.

May 17, 1971, Tape 663, Page 2 -- apb Afternoon. It is unfortunate that such an important right has to be proclaimed in the interest of politics, rather than the women. •· Then they go on to ask, "what is equal work? If certain jobs are regarded as purely femele jobs, do they come under the same minimum wages as men? Does the law apply in an all female establishment,and so on?• There are too many questions unanswered. I agree with that one hundred percent, and that is why I would like to hear the minister discuss this now, this afternoon, when we ~•ton it.

I believe the Premier,in his announcement,said it would cost the Government as a whole, $750 thousand to pay female Government employees wages equal to those of men. If that is the case, I would like to know who are the women in Government service who are doing the same kind of work as men, but who are not receiving the same kind of pay? I believe the minister should be able to tell us that. How is this $750 thousand distributed? What were thePe women doing who were doing the same kind of work as men· - the same type and quality of work, but who are not getting the same pay?

What department were they found in1 What kind of work was this? Bow is the $750 thousand made up? Has the Government now, already rectified it? I have some other points too, but perhaps it is better to let the minister deal with this, if he is going to deal with it before getting on to some of these other matters. Perhaps it is just worth mentioning one other point in these general reamrks, and that is the Government's position on the Public Service Collective Bargaining Act, 1970. The House knows.Mr.

Chairman, that that piece of legislation which was rushed through the House last June, Bill (85), is completely inadequate. When it was passed through the House last year I pointed that out. I think other speakers did also. This was a piece of legislation that has no guts at all, no 3790

May 17, 1971, Tape 663, Page 3 apb Afternoon. teeth. Everything in it that was of any importance to the employees of the Government was left to the Government to decide,by Order in Council and by regulations. In the last few days, we have all heard statements by the Newfoundland Federation of Labour, Mr. Critchley, Canadian Labour Congress, The Newfoundland Government Employees Association now called NAPE, (Newfoundland Association of Public Employees) all of them critical of this piece of legialtion, which should be taken by the nape and done away with by the Government. MR.

NEARY: It does not come under the Provincial Department of Labour. MR. CROSBIE: No, but it is a labour matter~you see, and labour we are now discussing. The Government's labour relations and they are in a pitiful state. Does the Government intend to proceed with its own regulations,under that Act, or are we going to have introduced at this session or at the next session, perhaps when the Cohen Comrni~sion reports, proper legislation giving the employees of the Government real collective bargaining rights? I think that is a very important question at the moment.

The Government has been requested,by the labour bodies in this Province, not to proclaim Bill (85) but to wait for the Cohen Commission to report. That seems to me to be very sensible, as long as Hr. Cohen reports this year sometime. Heaven knows he has been long enough at it now and still has not reported. That is something by the way the minister might tell us. Has he been in touch with Mr. Cohen? Has ,er.Cohen filown? Are we ever going to get Mr. Cohen's report? Because he took over from Mr. Justice R.and,I believe, at the beginning of 1969, certainly two years ago.

Has the Government decided not to proclaim this l\ct, and to wait for the Cohen Commission to report, or to hr\ng in more s·uitable legislation or not? 3791

May 17, 1971, Tape 663, Page 4 -- apb Afternoon. In view of the statements that have been made about this by Mr. Noseworthy, the President of the Newfoundland Government Employees Association, (I had a clipping here somewhere. I am not sure where I put it now) but, he described the legislation last Friday,in particularly appropriate terms. I will have to look for the clipping, but I am sure that the minister noticed it. It has been most inadequate and most unsatisfactory. I think the time has come,Mr.

Chairman, we are now on labour, for the Government to clarify their position on this legislation,which is opposed by Government employees and by the labour movement. MR. MURPHY: This is in connection with the same matter,Mr. Chairman, that is why I would like to mention.the number of calls I have received from nurses aides, who do the same work as the male nurses and the orderlies. According to their stories, they are being paid very much less than the male employees, notwithstanding the Human Rights Legislation and equal pay for equal work.

I was wondering, since it i~~conjunction with the same matter, if when the minister replies he might bring u~ up to date on just how the Governrnenth~ve faced up to the problems exisitng, in view of their great announcements of great, human rights and this type of thingl When the minister is replying - this is just the one matter I wanted to bring in at this time. MR. EARLE: There. are a couple of point I want to bring up under Labour,in a general sort of way. I did ask a question in the House some days ago about the cooperation of industry, the trades and technical schools, and labour generally.

I recall that some years ago there was supposed to be a joint committee set up to operate in conjunction with all these various groups, and to try to tie together their interests in the field of labour. 3792

May 17, 1971, Tape 663, Page 5 -- apb Afternoon. It appears, that what is happening to the trainees of the various technical schools and the vocational schools, somewhere along the line,after they get out,there is a bit of a fall-down between what they have learned in school and what they intend to put into practice when they get into the field. I think this is very pertinent to the department of Labour, because I have had many instances of young men who approached me and said; "we have taken a heavy equipment course or we have taken some set course.

We think that we have learned something in this course, but when we get out there are no jobs for us, because the employer say to us, ·'first of i all you have to have experience. •• Now they ask a simple I question. "How can I get experienc~ on a bulldozer u,less I I can operate a bulldozer?" \ I You can well understand that a construction company with I very expensive construction equipment,is not going to put some trainee on,to using a ~e~• expensive bulldozer.without some knowledge of his ability.

There is a gap there somewhere I along the line, where these · fellows,coming out of the trade schools-and the technical schools,can be fed into industry and trained. I imagine that this cornes,in a sense, under the apprenticeship idea, but there are many segemnts of industry where there does not seem to be any appropriate apprenticeship setup. I think in the trades,such as plumbing and electrical and this sort of thing, the apprenticeship course is working very well indeed.

I am particularly interested in the field of construction and heavy equipment, because at the time I was responsible for setting up the heavy equipment training - school at Stephenville, which I think has been quite successful, also at that time we set up the adult training there,so that men could qualify to take courses there, to bring up the·ir general educational standards, so that they had enough of what we used 3793

May 1,, 1971, 'l'ape 663, Page 6 -- apb Afternoon. to call "book larnin'" to get into more advanced courses. Many men have gone in there and the school has done an excellent job of putting through a lot of them, but there has been a great lot of disenchantment on the part of men having sweated through this,sometimes after they have been left school for many years, to come out of it and then find that somewhere along the line there is a gap where they just cannot get this start with industry.

The idea that I had in mind at the time and I think that it was a good one, was that this committee of industry and labour should work closely in conjunction with the training department of the trade schools and vocational schools. There seemed to be some trouble at that time,as I recall it, to get the correct representatives from the labour movement and from the industry and so on, to cover the whole thing. This bogged down, in the fact that nobody seemed to be able to get all these different groups together. in my mind, this is a very appropriate field for the Department of Labour.

They should get in boots and all into this, because it is essential to the man who is looking for a job. They should be most active in trying to have such a working committee appointed. If need be, Government I think should give them responsiblity for it. This brings up another question. There was a falldown in labour relations,apparently,the other day at the Farm Marketing Board,because a job classification had not been completed. I find this completely beyond understanding, because it was over two years since I had anything to do with classification organization, The Public Services Administration.

They were working very, very quickly indeed,as I :ecall it. They did a tremendous number of job classifications. 7 had a book from them,about four inches thick ,of job classifications· which they had completed two years ·ago, at the time I left the Government. Why would a little operation like the Farm Marketing 3794

May 17, 1971, Tape 663, Page 7 -- apb Afternoon. o I ~ Board not be done in·a matter of days? It seems a very feeble excuse that a job classification on a comparatively small operation like that, could not be completed very quickly indeed. It does not ring true to me. It does not seem to be a proper excuse. If it is, the thing has been far too long delayed and there should be some pressure from the minister's department to have this classification of jobs cleaned up.and dealt with. Just one final question Mr. Chairman, My friend, the hon. member from St. John's West, mentioned the Cohen report.

This gentleman I understandisapretty expensive individual and his report has been drawn out a long, long time indeed. The labour organizations themselves are saying that t~e Government should not take action until that r~port is received and studied. When is that report going to be recieved and studied? What at this stage has the cost of itr-been? This has been one of thse ongoing things that seem to be interminable. I know it is a big job, but ~n a Province such as Newfoundland it cannot be all that big.

Most certainly.I think some push should be put behind this effort to see that it is cleaned up, so that people, labour unions in particular.know where they stnad. This is a sort of report that can go on indefinitely, never presented, looked at and then put one side and looked at again, so that nothing will happen. This is a most essential and vital piece of information for the labour movement of the Province as well as for employers. I should think. that,the thing having been underway now I believe for close to two years, it is time to get on with it. I wonder if the minister could tell us something about this?

MR. NEJ\~Y: I-tr. Chairman, first of all,I want to reassure the House that the Government intends to stand by its decision to 3795

~ay 17, 1971, Tape 663, Page 8 -- apb Afternoon. provide equal pay for equal ~ork in the same establishment. We are committed to that, and we intend to stick by it. It is one of the greatest reforms that has ever been brought in to this House. As far as the Newfoundland Farm Products dispute is concerned,Mr. Chairman, my colleague, the Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources,explained,throught the House,how this dispute arose and what was being done about it.

Only a few moments ago, I signed a document.as a member of the Treasury Board, that will give the new union,which was formed at Newfoundland Farm Producrs, voluntary recognition and laying down of a procedure for defining the bargaining unit. I think at this particular point in time,Mr. Chairman, it would be improper for me to comment any further on that. The situation is well in hand. They have.as a result of their aetion the other day, formed themselves into a union.

The matter is now being checked out by an official oi the Department of Labour to assist Treasury Board in defining - or assisting the department in defining the bargaining unit,the same as we did with the Newfoundland Power Commission. We gave the I.B.E.W. voluntary recognition. In the case of the Power Commission, and I understand that my colleague,the Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources,and the Treasury Board have agreed to give the new union of Newfoundland Farm Products, voluntary recognition. It is only just a ·matter now of defining the bargaining unit.

How the equal pay for equal work in the same establishment will work, in business and industry,Mr. Chairman, is problematical. I have no idea how it will work, but I will say this; business and industry have been given sufficient time to work out job descriptions and bring their records up to date. As far as I am concerned,personally,I think this is the only way that it will work. Now, for the first time some small 3796

May 17, 1971, Tape 663, Page 9 -- apb Afternoon. business people will have to keep adequate records and have to have proper job discriptions. It is impossible, with the thousands of classifications that we have in the civil service, for me to come into this House,without at least one year's notice,to provide members with the information that they asked for, concerning what employees, what departments will benefit by the $750 thousand that has been allocated to implement the equal pay for equal work programme. I would think,myself, Mr.

Chainnan, that probably the Department of Health and maybe my own Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation will be the two departments that will be more heavily involved than the other departments .of . . . . ~ Government. I think, as my colleague.the Minister of Finance points out, that probably these two departments will:pretty well take up the whole amount. As far as the Cohen Commission Report is concerned, Mr. Chairman, I have not spoken to Mr. Cohen since I becaJ" .c the Minister of Labour, (acting), but I was speaking to his assistant, Hr. Bell.

I am assurred that the report of the Royal Commission on labour will be in the hands of the Government, not later than September. The hon. member for Fortune Bay raised a very interesting point. As I indicated in my opening remarks, the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations is not yet set up, but I think probably ~he points that he 1nade would be considered by the New Minister in the Department when they get it set up. It is always frustrating,Mr.

Chairman, for students to be trained in things that are obsolete before they get their training, or training students when you know that there are no jobs for that kind of training. I think he probably had a good point there, and one that would be worth taking a look at in the future. MR. CROSUII.:: !1r. Chairman, the minister's answers are really 3797

May 17, 1971, Tape 663, Page 10 -- apb Afternoon. most unsatisfactory. Most unsatisfactory.

I mean, it sounds wonderful for the Premier to get on T.V. and radio and declare.as he did six weeks ago ,that there is going to be equal pay for men and women doing the same kind or type of work in the civil service, from Aprill· months from April 1, and generally, six When we ask in the House; how is this great principal, which is advocated here year after year by the official Opposition, and voted down by the Government by the way, certainly during the years since 1966, when I have been here, .. hen we ask how that principal is going to be implemented, how is the Government going to go about doing it itself, in the civil service?

After all, the Government had the Public Service Associates of Chicago here to reclassify the civil service. They have a Public Administration Board to do the same, but when we ask how this figure of $750 thousand,to achieve this in the Government employment,is arrived at, und what categories of female Government employees have been doing the same work as men but getting less pay, when we ask that question, the minister saysthat it would take a year's notice for him to get the information. Surely the Government did not go ahead and make that announcement,Mr.

Chairman,without having this information at their finger tips. I know that I had this looked up in 1968; in the Department of Health, as to what it would cost in the Department of Health, As my memory serves me, officials there estimated $750 thousand a year for the Department of Health alone, to pay men and women the same pay for the same work. Is the minister saying that.when the Premier made his announcement,this was just talking through his hat? That the $750 thousand figure he gave to do this in the civil service 3798

May 17, 1971, Tape 663, Page 11 -- apb Afternoon. was just pulled out of thin air? Because, if the minister needs a year's notice to get this kind of information, presumably the Premier needs a year's notice to get it, or • is this just poppycock? I mean, the principle sounds fine, but there are going to be a lot of dissappointed females in Newfoundland . Mr. Chairman, both in the Government service and outside it this year, if it is not laid down pretty stringently what people are doing the same kind and nature of work, women as men.

How is the woman to know, who,say, works in a fish plan~ whether she is doing. or can be held by the Government or the administrators of this legislation to be doing the same .: work as a man who works in the same plant? Who is going to advise her of her rights? If there is a union,of course, presumably the union will do it.

If there is no union, or even if t?e union is involved, somebody in the Department of Labour has to give their opinion on it,30 what kind of machinery is being set up to see that this is carried out to really mean something1 Not only that, but what kind of work has the Government itself done to see how it is to be brought into effect in the civil service? From what the minister says,Mr.

Chairman, you can only gather from what he says that the announcement that the Premier made was hasty, ill-considered and not thought · out, unless the Premier or somebody on the opposite side of the House can tell us how this is-going to be implemented. Do not forget, that it was supposed to have started in the civil service on April 1, 1971. This is seven weeks later, So the minister has not answered that point at all.

The minister frankly says, now imagine this, the Government introduces a new policy equal pay for men and women, and the minister says,when he is asked this afternoon in the House, and that was announced eight or nine weeks ago, eight weeks anyway, he has no idea how this will work in private industry. This concept of equal pay for 3799

May 17, 1971, Tape 663, Page 12 -- apb Afternoon. men and women. 'l'he minister says that everybody who employs people is going to have to classify their jobs and reclassify them. That is all very well to say, but we all know,Mr. Chairman, that the only firms in this country large enough to have staff to classify their jobs and reclassify them are, Bowaters, Price and perhaps Lundrigans and few more big employers in the Province.

The ordinary rnan,employing five, ten, twenty, twenty-five people,does not have anybody working for him who is going to do job classifications or who ·is trained to do job classifications. What kind of utter tripe is that? I mean, it is ridiculous! The policy has been announced and now the Government says,in the person of the minister, that he has no idea how this will work in private industry. If the minister has no idea how it will work in private industry, why was it announced? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. CROSBIE: I-d-e-a, I ca:l it "i:dear" AN HON. MEMBER: "I dear" is wrong. MR.

CROSBIE: The point is not how that word is pronounced Mr. Chairman, it is how the Government is going to implement this policy. This is just election window dressing, unless the minister can come up and tell us how this is going to be done. tvhat are his plans for doing it? MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) MR. CROSIHE: How is the Government going to enforce this? Where are they going to get the staff? MR. Stl..l\LLWOOD ( J. IL ) :_ Order them to do it. MR. CROSBIE: The Government has to have people - who are capable of going into somLody's business and saying,' "now you have twenty-five men here.

I am going to classify their job, and these women here are doing the same work as these men 3800

May 17, 1971, Tape 663, Page 13 -- apb Afternoon. here." It is going to take a big staff for the Government to do that. I mean, the minister had better start getting staff, experienced staff to do it. Apparently, the Government 1 after a year,has not had time to get down to the Newfoundland Farm Products Corporation and classify them. That was the reason given in the House last Friday as to why they are being paid the abysmally low wages they are getting, a dollar and ten cents to two dollars an hour.

The Government that proclaimed equal pay for men and women,eight weeks ago, got women working at Pleasantville for one dollar and ten cents an hour. It is bluff. It sounds like bluff,unless the Government shows us something otherwise •. I am glad to hear that the union has been formed at Pleasantville. I hope that we will soon hear that some new working conditions have been negotiated there. We know that with the Acting Minister of Labour, acting as he is in election year, he will doubtless be pretty quick to see that something is done about that. But really, to hear the Government is 3801

., r-1ay 17, 1971. Tape 664. Page 1. Afternoon Session. paying $1.10 an hour up to $2.00 an hour and the rest of it. MR.SMALLWOOD: I am beginning to suspect that the hon. gentleman does not like the Government. Sounds like it. MR.CROSBIE: Not a question of liking it or disliking it. The time is long past for the C.overnment to disappear, disappear from the scene. The Premier is looking so bright and cheerful there we do not want to irritate him today. Just read his newspapers while we get on with the business of the Province.

MR.S'tl\1,I:WOOD: I am listening, I never miss a word of the wisdom,that is about one word in about every three minutes. MR.CROSBIE: That is when the Premier listens to himself. If he listens to others he will hear a few more. The Minister did not deal with the NGEA. Their President said last week that a better process of collective bargaining will soom be forthcoming, that the 8000 members association will be given the right to strike as well as other union rights. Is the President anticipating a change of Government?

Or has this Government said they are going to give the Government employees the right to strike and that a better process of collective bargaining will soon be forthcomingi I suspect that whet Mr. Noseworthy meant when he said that,is that he foresees a change in Govemfflent so that a Government will get into office that is more sympathetic to the aims of government employees, more sympathetic to the labour movement. Or has this Government told the NGEA that it 1~ going to give them the right to strike? It certainly will be a change of pace for the Premier,if he does.

I remember him saying in this House,many times,you cannot stri~e against the Queen, you cannot strike against the Crown. We have heard all that. Now perhaps the Acting Minister can go down in history by announcinr;!: today that the Government, the Crown is going to permit government employees the right to strike, that they are going to give them decent collective bargaining legislation. Otis that being saved for a moment closer to the election! Mr. Noseworthy is quoted as saying the Government.he said;has the chance to completely scrap the Act, that is 3802

May 17, 1971. Tape 664 Pa~e 2. Afternoon Session. the Public Service Collective Bargaining Act,and bring in new legislation that (quotes) \,111 define a fair and decent process for collective bargaining.' He described the Act as an insult to the labour organization and retrograd~ in every respect. That is the vie·wpoint of the government employees who have to deal with the Government under this Act., ~An insult and retrograde in every respect." The NGEA Hi currently bargaining for the bulk of the public service,but the results of the negotiations will not be known for some time.

There appears to be a fair kitty set aside in the budget for adjustments to the new pay plan. "As 1 read the Budget~' Mr. Noseworthy said•, "it would appear that nearly $10 million may be available." I kope he is right. I hope he is right. So 1 would like to have the Minister or the Premier really clear up · that point. All we can do is plead with him, our usual gentle way here,to set our minds at rest on this point, the strikes by Government employees. There is another aspect of Government labour relations,Mr. Chairman, that should be dealt with.

That is,what is the position of hospital workers? 1 believe, I am not sure on this now.my memory might be faulty but there was legislation passed here. No, I think it was said that the new Public Service Collective Bargaining Act would apply to hospital workers. I believe that the legislation that was passed in 1966-67 is &till in effect. Howeve~ I am not sure on that,the Minister can correct me,if I am wrong.

What is the Government planning to do with reference to the legislation,if it is still in effect, as 1 think it is, but my memory might be wrong, that forbids strikes in hospitals: That was passed 1966-67, is that going to be revoked so that they will have the same collective bargaining rights as other Government employees or public service employees or what is the position on it? The statement was made last year,in this House,Mr.Chairman, that there was to be an automatic five per cent increase for those workers, on April 1, 1971. clarify that. That is being denied since.

Perhaps the minister will MR.NE~RY: That is not in my department. 3803

May 17, 1971. Tape 664. Page 3. Afternoon Session. MR.CROSBIE: We can wait for the Department of Finance. It would be in order under the Department of Finance. There is one question I am going to ask the Minister,when we get down to minimum wages,which he might think on now and that is this. I had a complaint the other day,Mr. Chainnan, I have not had time to look into it, by an employee of a construction company. He said that under the Minimum Wage Act you have to pay time and a half after forty-eight hours work. This is the refulations passed last year.

He said what his employer was doing was he was paying them,he was working them sixty hours a week, paying them time and a-half,based on tbe~minimum wage of $1.25 an hour, not on his normal wage,which say was $1.75 an hour. In other words the employer told them that~according to the law, when he worked the overtime,the employer only had to pay him time~ one and a-half times $1.25 which was the minimum wage, · not one and a-half times $1.75,which was his normal wage. So I told him I did not have t~e,tbe House is meeting morning, noon and night, to look the point up fo; him.

But I assured him that this is certai~ly not the intention of the legislation­ perhaps I am wrong the minister might deal with that.

(1) Is that the intention of what was done last year, that the time and a-half would only be paid on the minimum uage? I feel sure that cannot be the case, that it must mean time and a-half the ordinary wages.

(2) Has the __ Minister had such complaints, has he gny legal opinion as to whether or if this particular employer was in defiance of the law in doing this. I assured the chap that called me that this could not be right. But I did not have time to look_ into the law,perhaps the Minister has had this kind of complaint investigated, If it turns out that, because of the wording of the regulations or the Act, an employer only has to pay time and a man overtime who one and a.half times the minimum wage when he works~ is being paid more than the minimum wage, this is all ~'Tong.

It should be time and a,half times his normal pay. So, if the Minister could get us some information on that. I assume his department had the same kind of complaint. 3804

t-4ay l 7, l CJ 71. Tape 661•• Page 4. Afternoon Session. HR.NEARY: Xr. 6hairman, I suggest to the hon. member that if he, wants me to deal with that complaint that he have it documented and pass it over to me,I will be very happy to have an investigatin~ officer of the Provincial Department of Labour look into it. It is very difficult for me to answer a hypothetical question. I do not have the facts in front of me Mr. Chairman.

As the Chairman knows a good lawyer does not answer a hypothetical question. 1-m.CORSBIE: No, but has the Minister had similar complaints - MR.NEARY: Yes, we have, we have had similar complaints. I would be very happy to look into this, it must be properly documented. Mll.CROSBIE: What position does the department take, it is one and a-half times the minimum rate or what does the department advise? MR.NEARY: Well,all we do 1Mr. Chairman,is set minimum standards. We can only enforce the legislation. I would have to know more about it before I could give you a yes or no answer.

But as far as Bill 85 is concerned, Mr. Chairman, let me say this,that the Newfoundland Federation of Labour are coming next week to present their annual brief to the Government. Then they are meeting with the Minister of Finance,who is also the President of the Treasury Board,and myself as acting minister of Labour. We are quite prepared to listen to ~hat the Newfoundland Federation of Labour or any other organization has to say about Bill 85 1Mr. Chairman. To my knowledge there has never been a piece of legislation passed by any free parliament in the world that has not been amended.

I do not know if my hon. friend knows of any piece of legislation that was ever pas:ed • anywhere in the world that has not been amended. We are quite prepared to listen and,if they have justification.we are quite prepaeed to bring amendments into this House, There is no problem.Mr. Chairman, I do not know what all the fuss is about. We have established two-way communications with the Newfoundland Federation of Labour, the NGEA, we have good relationships. So I do not know what all the fuss is about. 3805

May 17, 1971. Tape 664, Page 5. Afternoon Session. Mr. Chairman, they are coming to see us, they will present their brief, we will listen to them. If they have justification for having amend~ents hrought in, of course we will bring :!'e!I in· Y-fR.CROSBIE: That is the minister's answer to all these points- I MR.HICKYAN: Before the estimate, before the item is carried,Mr. Chairman, I would like for the minister to outline to the Committee what programmes his department have implemented to retrain Newfoundlanders for the changes in jobs and job classifications that obviously are now upon us.

I was reading in Friday's paper a statement,attributed to the hon. minister, with respect to the unemployment situation in Newfoundland. The minister is quoted as saying that the significance of the new employment figures woulci idepend largely on the definition of seasonally unemployed. , I believe that,apart altogether from the tragically high unemployment rate that we have in Newfoundland at this time, we have a second group who are in not quite the same predicament but close to it and these are the under-employed, They are in very sizable numbers.

The fact is, despite all the optimistic predictions that go back at least to November of last year,that things would get better in this Province, emolovmentwise. progressively worse. things have been getting In Novemher 1970 Newfoundland had the highest unemployment rate in the Nation. At that time the estimates of the Deuartment of Manpower was that there were 14,000 people out of work. That was in November. We can expect, we should regretfully have to anticipate an increase in the numher of unemployed during January and February.

But the tapering off should then start, because seasonal unemployment in the service industries, in the construction industry,are not like they used to be even five years ago. You find construction companies busily engaged on their projects rip.ht throur,h the winter. But yet what do we find on Friday, May 14, 1971. The unemployment figure in Net-,foundland is f;till rising. That there was an increase in April of 2,000 over the month before. Now I believe, d,~ spite all the good pieces of legislation that we have s,een 3806

May 17, 1971. Tape 664. Page 6. Afternoon Session. passed by this legislature over the years, tbe fact that the ~inister is responsible for the implementation, the enforcement of this legislation, over and above all that,its first and primary task must be to articulate Government'.sand it is the minister's position to articulate r,overnment's position in.;ofar ;'.S uremployment is concerned.

There is not much doubt that the Atlantic Provinces has been pretty cruelly dealt with, tbat for the first time in the history of Canada the Federal Government,with ~alice aforethought,deliberately,in its anxiety to curb inflation,created unemploy­ ment. Now, maybe Ontario or British Columbia or some of the wealthier provinces can afford this but again we have been called upon,Mr. Chairman, to pay the price and pay the penalty of an overall national policy, which appears to have been disastrous with all of Canada. But most assµredly it has been most disastrous for the Province of Newfoundland.

If the hon. minister has the hig heart that he says he has,then surely goodness he is not going to sit by and he is not going to continue to sit silently by and watch a Government in Ottawa,that is more concerned about balancing its budget and fighting inflation, deliberately, maliciously, carefully planned,to create unemployment in Canada and knowing(or they should have known}that the Province would feel the effects~more so than any other Province in Canada, would be the Province of Newfoundland.

Let me direct the hon. minister's attention to the fact that apart altogether from the seasonal unemployment, a lot of this unemployment appears to be more than seasonal, fhat the recent report which was submitted by the Atlantic Development Council on the strategy for the economic develop­ ment of the Atlantic Region, As the hon. minister is aware,favourable reaction to this report was expressed by the Hon. John Marchand, who said that the report, is quoted as saying that the renort will have a profound effect on Atlantic Pevelopment policies.

His department would take each recommendation, discussion and action plan. He went on to say that this is not a report we want to shelve. In that report,on page 13, it says; "resource based activities will c.ontinue to be important to the overall 3807

May 17, 1971. Tape 664. Page 7. Afternoon Session. economic base of the region, and opportunities for new and expanded activities, based on processing of the regions natural resources,should be actively and systematically explored and promoted~ This is the key to it. In the extractive phase of primary activities,however, a significant decline in the size of the labour force employed can be expected over the next decade and changes in the structural organization of operation.

The releasp nf manpower from the primary sector must be dependent, the Council emphasizes, upon the opening up of adeqHate job opportunities in other sectors of the economy. This Co11111ittee will recall that that same organization stated that 170,000 new jobs will have to be created in the Atlantic Provinces during the next ten years,at a cost of $25 billion. That is only half of the problem,Mr. Chairman. The creation of 170,000 new jobs at the very most will take care , if . it will, of those entering the labour force during that period.

What is equally important is the rather discouraging statement of the Council, but it is a realistic one, we know that, we know it from watching the operations in the lumbering industry, - from watchi~g the operations in the fish plants, in almost any industry we have in the Province, that with more mechanization, with the improvement of methods and procedures that each year the number of man hours is being reduced, and constant loss of employment to the Province. Over and above the creation of the 170,000 new jobs that we are going to have to find and find very dramatically, I submit,Mr.

Chairman, we can only find this with careful economic planning and a very intensive programme of re-training,initiated by the Department of Labour of this Province. Also the hon. minister will recall there is a recommendation that there be established a rep,ional, Atlantic Regional Labour Education Centre, becauseJas it points out. of the tremendcuns role that labour will have to bP. called upon to play in the develorMent and creation of johs in this area. We cannot wait,Mr.

Chairman, for this to suddenly come upon us and say we ha~ no _irl~a. lf we nad only known about it in 1~11, we woula nave taken some steps 3808

f-'ay 17, 1971. Tape 664. Page 8. Afternoon Session. to meet it. The fact is, that this Atlantic Development Council.with the expert knowledge at its disposal.has stated categorically that these facts will occur and the Minister of Economic Expansion in Ottawa has indicated that he is prepared to accept their findings and their recommendations. Now, ~r.

Speaker, may I also point out that the Atlantic Develop­ l'lent Council states (quote) "it will he necessary that there be harmonious la1'our management relations and ways must be found minimizing lhndustrial discordant ftiction.Unless the co-operation of both are received, the best conceived programmes will founder. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is w\iy the report of the Cohen Commission may be of great relevance to the future of this Province. We have tried, during the past two or three years,to have labour contracts for the life of a job,if the project is sufficiently large. We have it in ehurchill Falls.

It is not peculiar to Newfoundland.I believe they had it on the Montreal subway, certainly on EXPO. It is now in Stephenville and now in Come by Chance.

I would like to hear from the hon. minister as to how these contracts are working 1 because there has been a sug!_!:estion from workers, from time to time, it breaks out in print from time. to time, that when a union gets a contract for the total project,and that contract for Churchill Falls may be for four or five years, there is not the same continuous attention paid to membership grievances and enforcement of the contract as you would find where a union has a,, knows it has to negotiate its contract or re-negotiate it every year or every second year. I do not know if this is a good policy.

The experiment has been tried at Churchill Falls. It has been,relatively speaking,strike•free, probably strike.free. MR.SMALLWOOD: Do not be so long winded as the member for St. John's West. 1'1JL H TCKr-"./\N: I am not trying. I am not trying. What I would like to hear from the hon. minister is now based on two years of experience and may he a bit longer and some complaints from the workers at Churchill Falls. 3809

May 17, 1971. Tape 664. Page 9. Afternoon Session. noes he believe that for this type of project that it is in the best interest of the union members and the best interest of the workers to have th1s long term life of the project labour contract rather than to have labour unions come in and negotiate each yearl But again,Mr. Chairman,! do not see how we can debate the estimates of the Department of Labour in May of this year in the full realization that Newfoundland's unemployment situation is not improving that it worsened during the last month 1 without hearing a policy statement from the Minister of Laboux.

Rightly or wrongly,! suggest to this Committee that it is the Minister for the Department whose estimates we are considering, who has the responsibility,and no one else1 to articulate government policy, What are his views on it? What action has he initiated 1as Minister responsible for Labour,and what action of protest has been taken by the Government of this Province with respect to the disastrous national policies that are having more disastrous effects in Newfoundland than any other part of this country] I think we have to know.

I think we have to know whether the Minister of Labour believes that the greatest enemy to the security of Canadians today is inflation. as opposed to unemployment. I think most Canadians, most Newfoundlanders certainly I if you give them a choice, they will take inflation rather than unemployment. Again, Mr. Chairman this policy - how can they - MR.SMALLWOOD: Inflation means that we stop selling to the world,our goods become too expensive, that is what inflation means. MR.HICK~AN: No, ~!r. Chairman. Inflation means a great deal more than being competitive in the world tnarkets because of employment.

Inflation is also the ability to sell to world markets. It is probably more adversely or alternatively beneficially effected by the currency, inter­ national currency exchange. The fluctuations that we have seen in Europe during the last two weeks will probably have a more far-reaching effect on the econcmy of the resource centre in areas of Canada than any anti­ inflationary regulations that we have seen emanate from the Governm~nt of Canada durin,z the past several months. The same thin~ with the United 3810

May 17, 1971. Tape 664 Page 10. Afternoon Sess~nn. States of America. If their dollar is weaker than ours then obviously the fishin~ industry, the pulp and paper industry in this Province will benefit from it. But how does this business of deliberately planning to create unemployment inure to the benefit of this Province in particular, which is not a manufacturing province in the strict sense of the word/ New­ foundland or the Atlantic Provinces cannot be accused of contributing to the Jnflationary spiral that is going on in Canada. For sure it cannot be. But, yet when a policy is laid down it has to be national.

This is silly. does not have to be, Canadians,lived from 1867 until about, until the creation of the Atlantic Development Board,about fourteen years ago, tlived under this terrible tDnbrella, that a strong Federal Government must have a national policy,without variation. But the Atlantic Development Board varied that. It has been continued on and expanded year after year, but the strength of the nation did not s,uffer, because the Government of Canada is prepared to make certain concessions to the Atlantic Provinces and certai~ other parts and certain other distressed areas in Canada.

So that this - I suggest it was promote~ for generations in Canada,to avoid having to make these extra expenditures and additional expenditures and to show these preferences for the Atlantic Provinces. This did not destroy Confederation, if anything it strengthened it. Here we have now an unemployment situation in Newfoundland that is not directly attributable in its entirety to economic factors. You can stay here for weeks and argue what caused the last great depression in the thirties. This may, probably was.worldwide economic factors.

But this is not the cause .nor the cause of the factor,for the situation we find ourselves in today. ~e find ourselves in a status of high unemployment in Newfoundland because of legislative action taken 3811

Mny 17th, 1971 Tape 665(Afternoon) JM - 1 MR. lHCKM'AN: by means of Order-in-Council and by means of policy decisions of the Covern- ment of Canada they were made to apply to Canada as a whole. 'they knew or should have known that the effects on the unemployt11ent situation in Newfoundland would be disastrous.

I think the onus is on the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Labour only to satisfy this Committee that the Government of this Province were very alert to the tra~edy of this policy, that the GovernMent of this Province months ago saw what would happen,and give us concrete information as to what steps were taken,in September and October of last year and maybe even before,to indicate to the Government of Canada that its present anti-inflationary policy was not sitting very well with the people of Newfoundland and that the results would be what we now regretably find them to be in May of 1971.

It is no good to get up and shout and say, "Hooray! hurrah! hooray~ We have won the firht against inflation," when the fight against inflation has been won at the expense_ of Newfoundland workers,and it has, Mr. Chairman. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, there are a couple of points with reference to this first primary ~eneral vote to the Department of Labour. First is this; ff:>mbers of the official opposition and the members of the party of which I am a member were very heartened to hear the announcement~by the hon. the Premier,to the effect that there would be equal pay for equal work,regardless of sex.

After all this is a policy that and a position that has been annunciated by us time and time again, year after year after year. It cannot go without notice that the former Leader of the Opposition, the . former memhcr for St. John's East,brought in 1966 and 1967 and again in 1968 time and time and time ar.ain this question, brought in resolutions to the effect that this should be brought about and these resolutions, of course, were voted down by the majority on the other side.

It was then with a feelin~ of gratitude, a good feeling,when we heard this news that there was to be equal pay for equal work,because this was an 3812

May 17th, 1971 Tape 665(Afternoon) JM - 2 HR. MARSHALL: impleMcntation of a position which we had taken, as I said, time and time a~ain,and the record will bear us out on this. But it is also now, on looking over these estimates, a matter of concern,when you look them over and you see that the total estimates of the Department of Labour have been increased by a mere S23,500.

Now it is ,oing to be impossible, you can bring it in, certainly you can bring it in,if Government has full intentions of doing it, you can bring in in Government the position of equal pay for equal work but in private industry,as such,it is going to require constant,intensive supervision in order to bring it about.

There will have to be staff provided by Government 1 to assure that this policy is taking place, to assure that the private company is paying to the woman who is doing work equal to the male work~r, her counterpart in the company, is paying them equ~lly. _There does not appear,by · reason of the fact that there are no appreciable increases in the staff of the Department of Labour, an increase in the staff to cope with this require­ ment.

One would think also that there would be a type of a Board or a Committee set up for the purpose of hearing complaints which,when this policy is implemented,will obviously be raised by workers throughout the Province, by females,to the effect that they are not being paid equally to their male counterparts;and there is no provision,that I can see,in these estimates for the setting up of this Board. I think it is a most necessary element in order to bring the policy into effect.

Well, the Human Rights Commission, the Minister perhaps then will elucidate to us, will tell us how this Human Rights Commission is going to apply and whether in fact the Government has turned its mind,which I seriously doubt, to the Human Rights Commission taking up matters of this nature or complaints of this nature. It is certainly something that should be part of the Department of Labour and should be a special, specific board made up of expcrts,in the same matter as the Labour Relations Board an~ the 3813

May 17th, 1971 Tape 665(Afternoon) JM - 3 MR. MARSHAJ,L: ---- --- other Boards that are set forth here in the Department of Labour. In the first years of implementation, as I say, of this policy,if in fact the Government is seriously intending to implement this policy,there are going to be problems amt these problems can only be met by enforcement and enforce­ ment can only be realized by increased staffs and by machinery such as boards set up for the purpose of ensuring that the policy is carried out by everybody in the country. Then, Mr.

Chairman, there is another matter that the acting Minister of Labour mi~ht well set his mind towards and this is the setting up of some type of over-all Industrial Relations Council in the Province,comprising Government, management, labour, representative for the Fisheries Colleges etc. for the purpose of assuring not only that the labour force of this Province is adequately utilized but also assuring that the labour force is adequately trained and streamed into the changing face of this Province, streamed into the industrial economy of this Province. It is necessary and it is long over­ due.

It is a policy that has been advocated by us for quite some period of time. We see the Govern~ent p.ivin~ lip service to the policy, our policy of equal pay for equal work, we would like to see at least the Government paying lip service to this policy of an Industrial Relations Council. But in conclusion,! would like to underline the fact that it is goinr to take quite a bit of administration and quite a bit of enforcement in order to realize equal pay for equal work.

Now we have told you, the Government has been told for the past four years, that this was necessary to be l,rought about and they saw "the wisdom of bringing· it. abobt and announce it. We now tell you that,in order to bring it about,you are going to have to set up the machinery in order to enforce it and I feel the Government must realize this. Unfortunately it would appear,by reason of the fact that increased employees have not been provided for the enforcement of this policy, that the announcement is a shallow one and there 3814

May 17th, 1971 Tape 66S(Afternoon) JM - 4 MR. MAR!'.HALL: is no rr.al intent on the part of the Government to bring it about. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to make a few comments on this matter. MR. S~ALJ.WOOD: The hon. gentleman's usual few comments are unusually few comments. MR. HICKEY: Pardon me, Mr. Chairman, would the Premier like to wait until I make them and then he can decide whether they are the usual or the unusual. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is what I was afraid of. I thought the hon. gentleman might sort of set me at rest beforehand. MR. HICKEY: 1 will not delay the House, Mr. Chairman.

We have until six, so I will be ·finished around five minutes to six. Mr. Chairman, what I want to comment on is the new Legislation pertaining to equal pay for equal work. I was rather surprised to hear some of the answers given by the Minister but one has to realize that he is new to the department, that he is attempting to do two jobs. I do not like t? be ovei;critical of anyone but possibly, Mr.

Chairman, what the Government should do is they should sort out their own Rouse and put their own House in order, Surely they have some bodies over there that they can put into the departments without saddling one Minister with two departments, two very important departments 1 might add, I think the Minister has more than he can do to attend to the portfolio of Social Services and Rehabi_litation,as that is quite a tall order in itself. The portfolio of Labour,while very closely related to that department,at the same time is a most important one and one, Mr.

Chairman, in which the Government is finding themselves in a lot of difficulties,with strikes and what have you. So I think that possibly they might do some thinking along those iines. But, Mr. Chairman, with regards to this proclaiming of the Act pertainin~ to equal pay for equal work, and 1 am not going to go into detail, for my colleague, the member for St. John's East,just have pointing out that 3815

Mny 17th, 1971 Tape 665(Afternoon) JM - 5 MR. HICKF.Y: - - this is foolish. If there never have been a Tory law,then certainly this is one. However, Mr. Chairman, I do not think that it would be in the form that it is in. It is as a result of numerous recommendations by this party, by the present Opposition and by the people who have sat in Opposition. Since 1966, ~e have continuously pressed for this kind of Leiislation. MR. SMALLWOOD: --------- No credit r,oes to the converts, just the true blue Tories. MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Chairman, we always credit the Government, we always credit the Government when they bring in some piece of Legislation. MR. SMALLWOOD: I am talkin~ about the converts, the converts. MR. HICKEY: There is always room for a few more. MR. SMALLWOOD: While the light holds out to burn. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, the difficult thing to understand is that the Government waited so long to proclaim this Act and,apparentlY, during this period did nothini or next to nothing to set their own House in order,and I refer to the Government employees.

It is ~derstandable,from the answers Fiven by the Minister,that if he is n~t in a position to determine or to say just what effect this J,egislation will have on those people 1 well then that is a straight answer at least. But, Mr. Chaim.an, the unforgivet1 .ble part, in my view, is that the Government has just let this Le~islation go by the boards,as it were, all at,this time. They must have known some time or another they were ioing to proclaim it and they have done nothing to determine, ri~ht in their own service,just what the effects would be, how many people it would affect or what the cost would be. Hr.

Chairman, while my colleagues and I were deli~hted to see the Act proclaimed and made law,on the other hand,! think we would have even preferred to see the ground work done first,before proclaiming it,so that when it would apply to industry there would be sufficient teeth in the Act so that some people would benefit from it. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if the Minister has any indication at all today as to how many people have been 3816 •

Hnv 17th, 1971 Tape 665(Afternoon) JM - 6 HR • HJ CKF.Y : ·------- ---- affected by this Act todate, I believe it became law the first of April, Has there been any 11:reat number of people affected by it?Because, Mr. Chairman, as I see it,in the present Le~islation there are enough holes in it to drive a truck throu~h.

When we talk about job descriptions,as it applies to industry,! think that the first thin!!; should have been done ~ndustry should have been requested to come up with job descriptions, before the proclaiming of this Act. ;Each employer should have been requested to determine just what the job descriptions of their employees were and,when that was done, Mr. Chairman, then this Act could be proclaimed. In my view this would have I I certainly made a much or at least have a much different effect on a great I number of our people. !

There is nothing, for example, to stop an employer today from J 1 changin11: the job description, changin~ the duties of an employee. I do not I know of anything in this Act which prevents it. If the petition de~c ~iptions or job descriptions were established and pinned down before the proclaiming of this Act,then they could not have been changed or normallr would not be changed. Mr. Chairman, the proclaiming of the Act was associated with an hon .

Ministet and an hon. member of this House who has gone to his final reward and ri~htly so,but it is unfortunate, Sir, because I believe,if that hon. gentleman sat in this House today,! doubt very much if this Act would be on the Statute in its present form. I think that he certainly did not invisa11:e this kind of Legislation going into effect with little or no work done within the public service and with little or no preparation as it applies to private industry. I hope, Mr. Chairman, that this is not a political move on the part of Government.

It is somethin~ which appeals to a r,reat number of our people and I hope the Government are sincere in implementing this law and enforcing it and I hope that there are amendments, in due course,to strengthen this Le~islation,to prevent an employer from taHnp. advnntare of employees, like he might have as it would apply under the 3817

M,1y 17th, 1971 Tape 665(Aftemoon) JM - 7 MR. HICKEY: - --- - Act. As I see it at the moment,there is nothing to prevent an employer from doinr. .1ust that and ,therefore ,I doubt very much, Mr. Chairman, if any great number of people would be affected,if there is any great gain to be gotten from this Legislation at the moment. MR. NEA_RY: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the remarks of the hon. member for St. John's East Extern. I am sure that the hon. Premier has thou~ht about a permanent Minister of Labour. Once in a while that thought must flash in his mind, ~r. Chairman.

I do not mind looking after two departments. I like hard work, Mr. Chairman, and it is very interestin~ to be able to not only do something for the unemployed but to do something for the employed. I think, Mr. Chairman, that the hon. member for St. John's East Extern completely misunderstands how the equal pay for equal work in the same establishment will be implemented. It is not the Government, Mr. Chairman, let me emphasize that. It is not the Government, it is not the Department of Labour that goes out and does the job classifications, provides business and :fudustry with records.

That is a job for each individual business and industry and the hon. Premier has given business and industry right across this Province, six months notice. MR. SMALLWOOD: We said that. MR. NEARY: Six months notice, September 1, that the Ler.islation conc~rning equal pay for equal work in the same establishment will come into effect in this Province. Now, Mr. Chairman, that should give every business, large and small, a chance to bring in the necessary records that they need and to reclassify, if they have to, the jobs in their plants. So far, Mr.

Chairman, and I think the Premier indicated when he announced the proclamation of the Act that six months would be sufficient for anybody, any employer in Newfoundland to come to the Government, to come to the department with a complaint,if thry had it, if they did not think the thing would work, if they had any recommendations for amendments, changes. But,to my knowledge, 3818

Hny 17th, 1971 Tape 665(Afternoon) l-'R. NF.ARY: Hr. Chairman, we have not been approached by one employer.so far,in Newfoundland. JM - 8 Ml. SMALL'WOOD: Of course, we might do a little approaching to them after September 1 and get a few reports. HR. NEARY: That is right and I want to assure this House now, Mr.

Chairman, ~embers of this House,that we intend to go ahead with the enforcement of the equal pay for equal work in the same establishment~as of September~ and that the Provincial Department of Labour will have the machinery whereby employees, either as individuals or employees organizations,will have a way to process their grievances and complaints,if they have any. As far as unemployment is concerned, Mr. Chairman, I think that matter has been dealt with and rightly so in the ParliaMent of Canada. I think that is where it belonp.s.

We are very concerned, naturally we are very concerned in Newfound­ land,over the high une111ployment,but it is not the highest we have ever had in this Province, Mr. Chairman. It is 16.2 per-cent at the moment. The statement that I made the other day, just for the benefit of the hon. member for Burin, was that I thought that this figure of 16.2 per-cent was deceptive because it includes workers heretofore who were just considered as seasonal workers.

For instance, fishermen, loggers, construction workers have always had to make enough in a few months to do them the year around,but now they are considered as being unemployed. The next thinp., Mr. Chairman, school teachers who are not teaching in the sU111mer time will be lumped in with the unemployed. Well, university students.another example. Construction workers are supposed to earn enough in a few months to do them all year around,but there is no question, Mr.

Chairman, that automation and new technolor,y is havin~ an impact on the work force,and I do not know what the answer to the unemployment situati~n is. Some experts say that it is the guaranteed annual income, reverse income tax. t think the hon. member asked me for my own personal opinion, Mr. Chairman. 3819

May 17th, 1971 Tape 665(Afternoon) JM - 9 MR. NF.ARY: I think that one of the solutions is to provide people with programmes that will enable people to earn rather than accept social assistance or unemploy­ ment insurance, a job. Give them a chance to earn their share of the gross national product or the gross provincial product and to be able to get all the good things that are pouring off the assembly lines today, M:t. Chairman, by the very automation that is putting these people out of work. I would to11inforn the House, Mr.

Chairman, that only this morning I discussed this possibility with the Federal Minister of Health and Welfare, Mr. Monroe,and his officials from Ottawa,and he promised me that be would give me an answer to work activities projects in June,when the Ministers of Welfare meet in Ottawa. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, on this question of enforcing the Minimum Wage Act: Obviously to enforce it,the machinery has to be there and there has to be a will to enforce it but will the hon. Minister indicate - MR. SMALLWOOD: Is that tolerable? AN HON. MEMBER: That is just lovely. MR.

HICKMAN: I would have worn my sunglasses today, Mr. Chairman, if I had the slirhtest indication that the hon. the Premier was going to come out in that blazing red shirt. MR. SMALLWOOD: This is decent,but that tie. It is an affront to the Liberal party. MR. HICKMAN: It is away from the Orangeman and back to the hon. Minister, to the green. You know this is all fine,to say that it is going to be enforced,but the hon. Minister must have some thoughts as to how you are going to deal with aller,ed breaches of the e~ual pay for men and woman provisions of the Human RiF?hts Legislation. .

Because what happens is you prosecute an e11lf)loyer and he comes in and sayi::, "You are all wron,:i:. I make my own classification in my factory and I have classified this lady here as doing work that is somethinP. less th;m that which is beinp, done by one of my male employees." Now somebody 3820

M.ay 17th, 1971 Tape 865(Afternoon) JM - 10 1-ffi. III CKMAN: has to make a jud~ement decision and it will not be the courts. S0111eone has to make a judr.ement decision on the classification within a particular factory or within a particular fish plant, There again you are going to have real problems,say on the cuttin~ line. You know who is going to make that decision? Who is there? I am sure that no- one in this House, no hon. member of this House would go into a fi-s~ plant today and classify work.

It is ~ing to take someone with experience and no one who is experienced in classification, say in the car manufacturing industry,is going to be able to go into a fish plant and classify work 6 anymore than they can go into the hon. Minister of Public Works or a sausage factory and classify that work and job classifications. What I would like to know is ! 3821

May 15, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 666 NC - 1 MR. HICKMAN: What does the Minister plan to do? I am not suggesting that he does not have the best intentions in the world,but I can see every case taken,being thrown out of Court for lack of classification,because the onus will be on the Crown to prove that the male and female employee were doing the same work but they were not getting equal pay. How does he propose doing it? Other provinces have met this challenge.

I would like to bear it because I do not know what they have done in other provinces but,obviously,they have had equal pay for men and wonien legislation in some provinces.now going back to ten years. MR. HODDER: Shall -01 carrv? MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, the Department of Labour has fifty-seven employees,according to the information we are given here, and the Minimum Wage Branch has six employees, now there is not a cent in the Bstimates for additional employees for the Minim\DD Wage Branch to carry out this new policy of the Government - equal pay for men and women.

The Minister has not offered any explanation on how it is going to be done. The regulations have not been explained, It is obvious that the announcement was a sham and it is an attempt to delude the people of Newfoundland. There are six employees in Minimum Wages, there were six there last year, six this year, yet a whole new policy has come into effect;and it is going to require a lot of checking done around the Province.

There are going to be many complaints come in in six months time,that will have to be investigated.so apparently there is not even a person being taken on to enforce this particular phase of the Government's activities. It is farcical for the Minister of the Government to ask us to believe that this is going to be a vigorous programme and that it is going to mean something,on these conditions. The Minister has no explanation for it. The Minister has no explanation for the atrocious war.es that the Minister's Government is paying at Pleasantville;in the 3822

May 17, 1971 ( Afternoon) Tape No. 666 NC - 2 MR. CROSBIE: Farm Products Corporation. The Minister has had no explanation as to what the position is with Government employees bargaining, They are in a twilight world. the Government employees and their collective bargaining- that has not been clarified. The hospital workers are forgotten now. They are forgotten until the nex.t strike occurs. Because, mark my words ,if there is no change ••••••• MR.

JONES: I think he must be completely misinformed when he says that the hospital workers are completely forgotten and that we will hear nothing more of them until there is another strike in the offing. This is completely misleading. As a matter of fact, last week the negotiating team from the Treasury Board was in Grand Fall , they returned on Friday afternoon for the signing of the Police and Instructors agreement, they left at six o'clock to return to Grand Falls and,to the best of my knowledge,they are in Corner Brook today. It is misleading to say that they have been forgotten. MR.

CROSBIE: It is not misleading, Mr. Chairman, we are given no information, That is exactly what is wrong with the Government's collective bargaining process. No one is given any information on whether there is any progress at all or what is happening. There is nothing misleading about it. The Minister has now given us some information that is all it means. The point I am making is that the hospital workers' legal position, collective bargaining with them, that position is unclear. It may be the Treasury Board is out meeting with them now, I am glad to hear the Minister say so.

It took a long time for him to get up to say that. But they are in the same position. The basic position that was found a year ago has not change~. The collective bargaining process has not changed. So it is good to hear the Treasury Board is dealing with them but,whether they have got a right to strike or not,has not been clarified or changed,and the Government says nothing 3823

May 17, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 666 NC - 3 MR. CROSBIE: about it. Now there are two other points that.the Acting Minister, and acting is the right designation in this case because he is only acting as the Minister, and it is not even a very good performance. Ile is going to have to improve quite a bit. He is going to have to get the Actor's Award for this portfolio. There are two other points,Mr.

Chairman,that I would like to raise and one is that it is reported, I think in connection with Come By Chance, this is on jobs now, the Premier said Friday there were four hundred and five people employed there~very welcome news1 they have been waiting three years for this employment. But it is reported that the Government directed Procon,who are the prime contractor down there 1that they were not to pay more than the prevailing rate of wages for Newfoundland on that job.

They were forbidden to pay the various unions or people from the various unions,who worked down there, any higher than the presently prevailinr rates of pay for construction workers in Newfoundland. This is reported and I wonder why the Government is taking that position, if the Minister can tell us something on that? First will he confirm whether that is so, and,secondl~ why the Government is taking that position?

Number two, for example it is not usually the Government's job to tell any contractor what rates of pay they are to pay, they set the minimum wages, they set the minimum rates and then it is up to the employer and employees to negotiate the rest. I understand that it has been stated that they cannot pay more than the prevailing rates at Come By Chance,because this is forbidden by the Government. Now whether that is true or not,. the Minister can let us know.

That is one point and,secondly, this House passed legislation, I think it was two or three years ago, that permitted ~Churchill Falls, a contract to be negotiated,without any vote of the employees up there,. what union they belonged to and so on. A five year contract,to be entered into by the building 3824

May 17, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 666 NC - 4 tlR• CROSBI~: tradcs,and the situation up there,as far as most of the men working there are concerned.seems to be quite unsatisfactory. They do not get any satisfaction from the unions up there when they are laid off or dismissed.At least that is what the twenty-five or thirty who contacted me in the last twelve or fourteen months say. They go to this union up there,with a grievance,and they are not processed. They loose their jobs up there and the union is not much interested in them. They say they cannot get any action from the Government up there either.

Now this House passed iegislation that enabled the workers who went to Churchill Falls to be captives of the unions and the companies that entered into that agreement ·and,as far as I can see,Mr. Chairman, the Government has done precious little about seeing that these men, if they have a grievance, have it properly looked into. I have .raised this issue in the House before,last year and this year. Little result,! just get scoffed at but the Minister can see some of the correspondence I have done. I got another letter yesterday, a man with the same experience.

He says 1 in his letter,that he went to the union office~ here in St. John's,six times. In the afternoon here the union offices were not opened. That he complained at Church~l~ Falls,when he was dismissecl. .and they did nothing for him up there. What is the Governmen~~oing about this?

I have suggested several times that there should be some kind of_ I know the Government has a representative up there, but some kind of an onbudsman set up just for contracts like this, so that any man with a complaint, forget the man on the seen~ at Churchill Falls, has somebody to go to in the Government service,who will investiga~e all this report 1whether there is anything to it or not. They report that the unions there are not interested in their grievances. They have got their contract, it is in effect for five years.

They are getting their union dues every month fromthe men up there and they just do not bother to go into their complaints, This is what they say. Now is the Minister having that checked out at all? 3825

May 17, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 666 NC - 5 MR. NEARY: Mr, Chairman, my understanding is that Procon and the construction Unions are currently negotiating a collective agreement covering working conditions and rates of wages at the Come By Chance Oil Refinery project and I am sure, Mr. Chairman, that it was not the intention, at least the deliberate intention of the hon. member for St. John's West, to try to muddy up the water in any way.

The Government, at least the Department of Labour,has no idea what 1 eventually,what rates will be agreed on between Procon and the construction unionsnorwhat their working conditions will be. I think it is very unfair,Mr. Chairman, and 1 as I say,I am sure that the hon. member did not mean to muddy up the water while these negotiations are in progress. MR. CROSBIE: I am muddying up nothing. Has the Government made any directive that they are to be paid no more than the prevailing rate set elsewhere in Newfoundland? That is the question. :m.. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, the construction unions are also negotiating ~t the moment with the constructio1. trades and I understand that the electricians,for instance, have been locked out, that there have been a number of strikes in the construction industry recently. I have no idea what rates of wages have been agreed on or what the IBW or the electrical contractors will agree on. I have no idea what Procon and the other construction unions will agree on. But one thing that I know that Government has impressed on Procon, Mr.

Chairman, and that is the fact that there should be no delay in the work at Come By Chance because they have been unable to reach an aBreement with the Unions. The Government is watching it very carefully and we •••. MR. CROSBIE: Did the Premier,on behalf of the Government, tell Procon they could not pay more than the prevailing rate? MR. NEARY: We have told Procon, at least,Mr. Chairman,this is to my knowledge, we have told Procon that we do not want any delay in the work at Come By Chance. MR. CROSBIE: That is not the question. 3826

Hay 17, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 666 NC - 6 MR. NEARY: As far as collective agreements ·.on construction, on big ­ construction projects, are concerned, Mi:. Chairman, my understanding again is that the \lnions like this set up. You know, who am I to say that they should not have joint collective agreemen~s on these pcojects! In Churchill Falls I think it worked out excellentlyMr. Chairman, in spite of what the hon. member said. I think that is borne out by the fact that the Churchill Falls Hydro-Project is running almost a year ahead of schedule.

They have had complete harmony and labour peace in Churchill Falls, Mr. Chairman. There have been some gripes. I think the bugs have been ironed out and all the reports that I get from Churchill Falls . are that everything is working out satisfactorily.They had an excellent collective working agreement with the unions at Churchill Fall,s, Mr. Chairman. I would say one of the finest in Canada, one of: the I finest. Now whether certain individual members were able to p~ocess their grievances or not, I do not know. There are bound to be some complaints. Nothing is perfect. But overall I think, Mr.

Chairman, that the Committee would have to agree that the contract, the collective agreement at Churchill Falls,was a good one. The one at Stephenville is a good one. They did have some difficulty in the beginning but the problems were overcome and everything is working smoothly in Stephenville and I am sure, Mr. Chairman, that when Procon is able to come to an agreement with the construction ~nions, here on the Avalon Peninsula, that things will work out just fine at Come By Chance also. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, the question has not been answered.

I understand that Procon stated that they have been directed by the Government not to pay on that job in excess of the prevailing local wa~e rates ,in the building trades. Therefore they cannot pay. MR. S~L\LLWOOD: That is utterly untrue. 3827

~..ay 17, 1971 (Afternoon) tape No. 666 NC - 7 MR. CROSBIE: That is what I want to find out. The Premier says it is utterly untrue so then we can take it that this is not so, that there bas not been a directive. ~. NEARY: They are negotiating now, ~3.. CROS~It: Right. The Premier has a.~swered the question now and says it is not true. So we will have to accept that. The other point is,~r. Chairman, that the ~inister's statement about Churchill Falls really begs a question. Nobody is saying that the agreement is not a good one, tbe collective agreement itself.

What is wrong with the situation is that,while this is fine for the Union, it is fine for the employer, it is not fine for the individual member,because they are completely at the mercy of the employer plus the ~nion.

Their rights, thesebetveen the Union and the company• are minimal, practically nil • The employee who gets dischargad from his job and bee thinks he is discharge unjustly cannot get anyone to properly pursue the matter for him, Ile gets shipped out of Churchill Falls and he finds he has no recourse,and their complaint is that the \.Uiou is not carrrying out what they should be carrying out, that is to see that the rights of their members are properly pursued an~ protected, This is only a natural human tendency because the union doe~ not have to ·worry that at the end of the year there is going to be another vote and some other Lnion may come in.

There can be no other union go in there. that was the weakness of that legislation,when it was passed,and it is the weakness now. But I gather froa the ~!inister that he is quite satisfied with the situation and he thinks it is going all right and sees no need to change anything,so that is his position, HR. S}l.\LLWOOD (J.R.): Mr, Chairman, the high ranking officials, the highest ranking officials of Procon cae in to see me the other day, I think about seven of the::i, to report to r.-,e,as they do from time to tirne. This is the largest nurber that did come in to see rne since the 3828

Hay 17, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 666 NC - 8 MR. SMALLWOOD: signing of the agreement, when there were even more. They came in to report to me on the progress they were making,because I had been complaining very bitterly, very,very bitterly . indeed, and at the highest possible levels in that Company,about their slowness in getting going.

So they came in the other day,with the glad news that they were going to get going now, right away, starting engaging men and they were negotiating onion contracts,and I said; ''Well. that is just fine, I take it you have been to the Department of Labour.'' He said;"no.'' I said~"whaU" He said; "no!' "I said~"you have not been in touch with the Department of Labouri' He said; "no I have not," I said, "you had better get cracking and get in touch with . ' them.

We have a Department of Labour in this Province and you had better get in touch with them, and do not ignore them."' I do not know whether they have completed the!r negotiations with the Unions. They have not1 The Minister of Labour tells me that they :,ave not. Now with regard to projecl labour contracts,! am a very strong believer in them. I am a very, very strong believer indeed. Now it does not matter perhaps on a small project.

If a man takes a contract to build a house, and if he has three strikes against him.by his employees, in the course of construction of that one house, it is bad for him but it is not so terribly bad overall. But if you have $1,000 million, a billion dollar industrial project in Churchill Fails, and it takes ten years to construct it, a ten year construction programme, yesterday Mr. Mulholland, William Mulholland, the head of BRINCO and the head of Churchill Falls,spent the whole afternoon with me until six o'clock, at my home 1yesterday, Sunday afternoon.

He flew down from M~ntreal to have a chat with me, which he does from time to time, I was interested to hear from him that this fall, this coming fall, they will be producing power,but that is unofficial, it is next spring, the spring of next year, about a year from now or a bit less than a year 3829

Hay 17, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 666 NC - 9 MR. SMALLWOOD: from now that· they will be officially producing power. But actually, .on-.the first of July, I am to preform some function there that will start the building up of the biggest lake this side of Lake Ontario. It will be the hughest .one of the Great Lakes of North America. That will be one of the main sources of water that will start backing up then, and building up and building up to a vast lake.

Five years more they will be working on the construction of Churchill Falls,yet another five years, 1976 I think it is, another five years of construction on the Upper Churchill, not CO\Dlting the Lower Churchill, where there will be another $600 million spent on construction. Another four or five thousand men and another five or six years of construction,not co\Dlting the additional five years there still will be on the Upper Churchill.

Now is it conceivable to a rational.man, unless he is a fool, an utter fool or a villan, a scoundrel, unless a man is a scoundrel or a fool, is it conceivable, can anyone even begin to imagine a ten or twelve year construction programme,liable,with say sixteen unions in there and any one union. say the Bakers' Union, baking bread, say ten bakers, they have a strike and everybody closes down and not cross the line. Can you imagine that? Any one of sixteen unions, at any moment, call a strike, put up a picket line and close down a ten or twelve year construction programme, what kind of insanity is that?

The alternative is that. MR. CROSBIE: No it is not. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is the only alternative. HR. CROSBIE: The middle way. HR. Sl1ALL\-10OD: There is no middle way. There is no middle way. So what did they do,in fact? They called in the sixteen unions and they negotiated a labour contract to last the whole life of the project, and signed it. 3830

May 17, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 666 NC - 10 MR. SMALLWOOD: In it they provided wage scales for every classification of worker. In it they provided automatic built in pay increases. That is why there has been no strike. They began with a higher rate of pay and I think it is every six months there is an increase, an automatic increase. Is it six inonths? I think it is every half year. AN HON. MEMBER: Every year. MR. SMALLWOOD: Ever year is it?

Every year there is an automatic increase I That was provided long ago when they were negotiating the agreement, five years ago,and that is good for another five years, ten years,with an automatic built in increase. Now by this means the Company knows what the power is going to cost them when it is finally constructed. They have got to know that, have they not? How could they make a contract to sell power, say six million horse :•power of electricity, how could they make a contract to sell it 3t a price, a firm price?

How could they do llhat if they did not know what the power was going to cost them_, e>st themselves to produce? The cost of producing power is the cost of installing the cannals, the dams, the generators, the turbines and so on, ~ey have to borrow that money. They borrow that money, they spend it and that is the cost. Now how much have they got to borrow? That depends on what wages they have to pay.

It also depends,of course,on the cost of the generators and the cost of the turbines . and the cost of any other installations they have to buy or get made or get manufactured, the cost of bringing it in. the cost of installing it and getting it going. Largely the cost of labour and,if they do not .have firm, ascertainable, foreseeable labour costs throughout the whole period of the contract, if they do not have that. how can they know what the power is going to cost them?

If they do not know what the power is going to cost them, how can they make contracts for its sale'l If they do not have contracts for its sale. who is goin~ to lend them the money? '.fhey have to borrow 3831

May 17, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 666 NC - 11 MR. SMALLl-!00D: hundreds of millions of dollars, hundreds piled on hundreds of millions. Who is going to lend them money to put in a big electric installation unless they have a sale made of the power? Not only a sale made but a firm price and not only a firm price but knowing what it will cost so that they will make a profit, They have got to make a profit or they cannot pay back the loan, can they? They cannot pay interest on the loan,can they? They cannot pay back the principle,can they?

Unless they do it out of a profit and the profit is the difference between the price they get for the power and what it cost them to produce the power. What it cost to produce the power is life and death and,in that life and death picture, the cos.t _of labour is everything,so they have to have a project contract, Now the unions,sixteen unions, thought so, They agreed, the Company agreed, the Newfoundland Government agreed, Who disagreed? One man, one man, a member of this House, that is all, no one else.

He sat over here at that time, he disagreed with the idea, he disagreed with the idea of a project contract covering the life of the project, ten years of construction. With good wages built in, good conditions built in, with an automatic increase in pay every year, built in all in the agreement, all provided for so there would be no strikes, so there would be no stopages, no lock-outs, no rows, so that the greatest hydro project in the world's history, in the history of mankind,could be built successfully and profitably, it could not be done without that kind of an agreement.

When you get that kind of an agreement the danger is that you have about sixteen fat cats, sixteen unions, with a ten year agreement ., lmilt in escalation of salary rates, fat eats, they grow fat and sleek and smug and self satisfied, That is the danger, and we have had that. I did not hear the hon. gentleman_ HR. CROSilIE: Like a Government that has been in power too long. MR. SMALI.WOOn: Yes, We are very sleek and fat cats. MR. CROSBIE: Self-satisfied. 3832

May 17, 19 71 (Af tentoon) Tape No. 666 NC - 12 MR. ~~LWOOD: Yes self-satisfied, no ambition, no desire to ·drive her, we would not take any chances. We do not gamble. We take no chances in this Government. :Fat cats, sleek and self.satisfied, smug and complacent, we, never take any chances. ·we do not gamble because we are so smug and complacent.

Sut if you get a union with a ten year contract,and they are going to. collect the dues and the unions have a check off and every man who goes to work is a member of the union and his union ·dues, the Union does ,not have to send a collector around to him every month and dun him-and torment him and be a i nuisance to him and collect his dues and the next month have to go back again and go thr_ough all the troUQle of collecting the dues, no nonsene.e like that, the ·.• 3833 ..

Hay l7 • 1971 Tape no. 667 Page 1 - MRW Mr. Smal111ood, company deducts the dues and writes a cheque and passes it over to the union, So with a contract for ten years and the dues deducted by the company and passed over to them all the time, the danger is this is a danger and I have said it before in this House, not just today - I have said it before, I said it to the unions, I have complained to the unions , when Newfoundlanders have come to me and I have said to them~ "well what the devil, why did you not go to the union?

Do you remember the union?" "Oh1 yes sir," Well I said; "Why did you not go and see the union delegate ·!" "Well I do not know," Nine times out of ten., Hr, Chairman, they do not, they do not go to the union delegate. Then I would say to them~"well then,all right, did you go and see the Newfoundland Government's representative?" "No, sir I did not go." They come in to see me.

They come in from Churchill Falls, They co~ into Confederation Building, Right there in Churchill Falls the Government have a man stationed,whose job is just one simple thing,to receive complaints of Newfoundlanders and go down to the company and straighten it out with the company, with the employer, We p•1t him in there. We made him independent of eve-rybody down there by giving him his own house. The Newfoundland Government put a house there for him and his wife, He represents the Govenunent,so he would be independent of eve-ryone, But they do not bother to go and see him.

They do not bother to go and see the union delegate, They will get fired, They will lose their jobs. They get on a plane and they will come home. When they are home a few days, they come and see me or write a letter to the hon. gentleman across. That is just stupid,is it not? ls that not stupid? It is stupid not to use the unions. On the other hand it is pretty stupid of the unions.

It is pretty stupid on their part to become fat cats. smug and fat and sleak and oily and greasy and lazy and just collect the dues every monthJ wthout even having to lift a little finger to do it, Soon, Hr, Chairman, thos~ unions will expect the company to come over and bring the cheque over to them. Now that is the only argument there is or can be again11tthe project or a project contract, 3834

May 17, 1971 Tape no. 667 Page 2 Mr. Smallwood. Now they are tryinR to get the same thing at Come-by-Chance. They are going to be two years, two~nd a-half years building this oil refinery. and the fim that is going to build the great wharf, three-quarters of a mile , long, that is part of 300 men, that will be two and a-half years. In fact it is going to be a race to get that wharf built in time for when the oil refinery begins to receive its first big tanker load of oil. They have to fill up the big,huge tanks on the tank farm.

There will be a number of ship­ loads of oil, I suppose, tanker-loads of oil,arriving in Come-by-Chance before the refinery is actually on stream. So that wharf will actually -~ave ·t~_be needed and will have to be built a bit before the oil refinery is completed. There again •during that two or two and a-half years, they want a project contract. Now you get a paper mill-·starting there, which I hope to see before very long. That will take two years, two and a-half years to build. In fact there are two mills that they are talking of building.

They arP talking of a 600 tons a day newsprint paper mill and a 600 tons a day second mill,bleached sulphate pulp. Well that is two mills. We are talking here of something in the order of $140 million or $150 million, two big mills, a paper mill and a pulp mill, two aepar•te mills. That is two and a-half years of construction as well.

Well this would run altogether - you might not have this number at one time but there will be, I would say, from last Monday, a week ago today, until the oil refinery is completed and until the paper mill is completed and until the big pier is completed, I would say that probably 8,000 to 10,000 men will go through the ropes out there. They will work and be fired or quit or get a job somewhere else. There will probably be the beat part of 10,000 men. There will be a nwnber of unions involved.

There will be the electricians' union, . t~e plumbers' union, the pipe fitters' uni,.n, the carpenters' union, the plasters' union, the labours' union, the iron and steel workers' union, the riggers, the painters' union, a whol~ host of unions will be invol,ed. Can Newfoundland, I ask this question, can this Province, the half million soul> in this Province, with the stake they have in Come-bv-Chance, can we 3835

May 17, 1971 Tape no. 667 Page 3 Mr, Smallwood afford for any union to tie it up, this one for a week, that one for a week another one for a week, never knowing what moment there is going to be a close-down? Can we afford that? Are we that rich? Not on your life! Not on your life: Not on our lives! We cannot afford it. So the sensible thing, the rational thing, the level-headed thing is to have union agreements covering the whole life of the construction job. ls that not- sensible? Now if you have a union contract, a bunch of unions together, a - what do you call it?

When you have a lot of unions all joined together to make onr.contract with the employer, what do you call that? Well it is an association of unions. If you have that and you make the agreement, they are not going to be satisfied." Nobody is going to be satisfied to have a wage rate written in now that is going to be unchanging for twelve months and then for another twelve months and then maybe the best part of another twelve months - you know, twenty~four or thirtv months. No union is going to sign an asreement and say this is the rate of pay for these thirty months. There is going to be built in escalation.

There has to be. The employers, the contractors must provide for that. 1 have no doubt in this wide world that Procon - at this moment, are building four oil refineries in the world - four. They have built dozens. 1 have no doubt that they have provided in their expenses for escalation of wage rates. Of course they have. These will be reflected in the labour contracts. I am ashamed to be saying this. I feel ashamed to be saying what is so obvious. It does not need to be said.

You know, if you do not like the Government, if you just simply do not like it, if you have no use for it, tf you do not like the smell of them, if you do not like the look of them, if you do not like the sound of them, if you do not like anything about them, if that is the way you feel, you can find all kinds of ways to twist and twist and put a little pin prick here and a little bit of tail twisting there, you know, and you can make it sound like the utterance of a statesman. 3836

May 17, 1971 Tape no. 667 Page 4 MR. CROSBIE: Hr. Chairman, before we .• MR. SMALLW00D: I thought that that would get him up. HR. CROSBIE: No, that did not get me up. I enjoyed the Premier's performance. It was a most interesting performance, HR. SMALLWOOD: He did not enjoy it a year and a-half or two years ago down in the arena. He did not enjoy it one bit. HR. CROSBIE: Oh, I thought that was hilarious too, especially the Premier crawling behind that band, It was quite humorous. everything the Premier has said ••• But, Hr. Chairman, MR. SMALLWOOD: I came in ahead of the band, not behind it. MR.

CROSBIE: Well you should have been behind. You will.be this fall. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes? MR. CROSBIE: Now, Mr. Chairman, ninety per cent of what the Premier said I can agree with. In fact, I supported that legislation when it went through in :1968 •. , I was sitting across the House then. But the point the Premier is missing, as he well knows, is not that you have not got to have this kind of contracts for these long projects like Churchill Falls, what the Premier is forgetting is that the individual disappears when he is put up against a big union and a big companyi That is the problem. It