Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 18 (35th Legislature, 3rd Session)

35-3-18

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Third Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature ofthe Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 39-40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLI No.18 ·1: 30 p.m., THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 27,1992 Printed by the Office of the 0Ufl6ns Printer. Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constit uencies and Political Affi liation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMM INGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRI EDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FIN DLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDR Y, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKE S, George LAMOURE UX, Kevin LA THLIN, Oscar LAURENDE AU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayt on, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Welli ngton River Heig hts Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage Ia Prairie Ste .

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur - Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Stu rgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mou ntain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

749 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, February 27,1992 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): I must inform the House of the unavoidable absence of Mr. Speaker and, in accordance with the Statutes, call upon the Deputy Speaker to take the Chair. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEE DINGS READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Madam Deputy Speaker (Louise Dacquay): I have reviewed the petit ion, and it conform s with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read ?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and It is the responsibility of the government to recognize and deal with this most vicious of crimes; and Prog rams like the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with the crime; and The decision to termi nate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper the efforts of all good citizens to help abused childr en.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong com mitment to deal with Child Abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaig n. (Ms. Barrett) I have reviewed the petition, and it conforms with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read ?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and It is the responsibility of the government to recognize and deal with this most vicious of crimes; and Programs like the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with the crime; and The decision to termina te the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.

WHEREFORE your peti tioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Pro vince of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong com mitment to deal with Child Abuse by consi dering rest oring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign. (Mr. Reid) I have reviewed the petit ion, and it conform s with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and It is the responsibili ty of the gove rnment to recognize and deal with this most vicious of crimes; and Programs like the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awar eness and necessary funds to deal with the crime; and The decision to term inate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Pro vince of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong commi tment to deal with Child Abuse by considering rest oring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign. (Mr. Chomiak)

750 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA February 27, 19 92 .. (1 335) TABUNG OF REPO RTS Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Government Services): Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to table the '90-91 Annual Report for the Department of Government Services. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Madam Deputy Speaker, I would just like to table the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Quarterly Report, Nine Months, April to December, 19 91 .

Introduction of Guests Madam Deputy Speaker: Prior to Oral Questi ons, I would lik e to inform the House, there are twenty-f our Grade 5 students from Linwood School, under the direction of Mr. Will Peters, in the gallery. This school is located in the constit uency of the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afte rnoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Repap Manitoba Inc. Renegotiations Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): For the last two and a half years, Madam Deput y Speaker, we have been raising a number of concerns on the negotiated agreem ent between the government of the province of Manitoba and the Repap corporation. We have been raising the inadequate job guarantees in that agreement. We have been raising the aboriginal land claim issues in that agreement. We have been raising the issues of chlorine bleach for the expanded plan for the last two and a half years. We have been raising the issues of the forest cut area that the government gave away in agreement with Repap.

Members opposite and other members in this Chamber attacked us right through the election for the concerns that we had raised on behalf of Manitobans, yet tod ay, the Minister of Finance state s--and the logic of the government falls like a house of cards when he states that we will negotiate some of the conditions of the agreement that were not in the best interests of Manitoba in the past, Madam Deputy Speaker.

He has now agreed to negotiate specific parts of the project, unfortunately for all the wrong reasons, reasons due to the finances of the corporation in a letter that was given to the Minister of Finance and responded to by the governm ent one day lat er. I would ask the minister responsible for this divestiture, what assurances can he give the people of Manitoba that we will not repeat the failures of the past with his negotiations in negotiations for the future? Hon.

Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Madam Deputy Speaker, what is obvious firstly is that the official opposition maintains and continues their tirade against Repap. They have been against Repap from Day One. They never wanted an outside corporation to come to this province. They wanted the gov ernment to continue to own Manfor . They wanted a massive pollution to continue at that site and they had-and then $30-million annual losses. That is what the members opposite wanted .

When the company approached us to begin to cons ider sit ting down and restructu ring the agreement, given the incredible economic losses, financial losses within that industry, tot alling $2 billion in the calendar year 19 91 , given significant large numbers of plant closur es throughout the forest products industry across Canada, indeed, when they said that they were now wanting us to begin to restructure the agreement, to take into account that they no longer could meet their time frame-indeed, they mi ssed it by a signific ant amount-at that point in time the government said we were prepared to engage ourselves into restructu ring over the next six months given certain conditions.

Those conditions have been laid out within the press release. I dare say they have nothing to do with the fact that the NDP may have raised those issues. Four years later , since we have done the deal, the world changes, Madam Deputy Speaker, and it is right and proper to include those elements of which chlorine bleaching is certainly one significant aspect in the restructu ring process. Aboriginal Land Claims Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Deputy Speaker, let not the record show for one moment the words the Minister of Finance put on the record.

We have always been in fa vour of an agreement with the Repap corpora tion. We have been opposed to the rotten deal the Minister of Finance

February 27, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 751 negotiated with that agreement from Day One, along with thousands of Manitobans. * (1 340) Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Leader to put a question. Mr. Doer: Madam Deputy Speaker, anybody who had any understand ing of future jobs would have to predict future markets. That did not include chlorine production. My question is to the Minister of Finance. The rela tionship this government has with Canada's First Peoples and Manitoba's First Peoples is very poor .

During the Repap agreement negotiations, they did not involve in partnership the aboriginal co mmuni ties in that area. In fact, aboriginal com munities had to mail in to the comm ittee the material on the original agreement. Madam Deputy Speaker, the Minis ter of Fi nance now ackno wledges in his sta tement and the company ackno wledges in his state ment that abori ginal land claims is a major issue. 1 would ask the Minister of Finance: How does he expect to have a partnership with the aboriginal people in the province of Manitoba when he has ignored their claims in court?

When he has ignored dealing with them in the past, how can we expect him to deal in partnership in the future with our aboriginal people? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Madam Deputy Speaker, cou rts ultimately will decide whose claims are relevant or accurate or indeed justified. Let not the Leader of the NDP rewrite history . We provided an access to cutting rights , an area configured many years ago. Indeed it was Manfor's ; for the most part, it was Manfor's old cutting area- [interjection] Yes, it was, and the area of which the member asks was always part of the Manfor cutting area.

Let not him try to give the appearance that somebody's rights were trampled on because they were owned, indeed they were accessed by Manfor prev iously, and they were more or less provided in the same configuration as provided to Repap, so I would insist that the member acknowledge that fact. Cutting Area Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Deputy Speaker, I will not point out the difference between publicly owned corporations with publicly owned land and private corpora tions. The Minister of Finance would not understand that.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I have a further question to the Minister of Finance. He has not answered the question of partnership with aboriginal people, and judging from the AJI , I think we are in real difficulty with members opposite. Madam Deputy Speaker, we did ask the Minister of Finance in August of-[i nter jection] Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Leader of the Opposition to put his question now, please. Mr. Doer: Madam Deputy Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance.

On a number of occasi ons, we asked the Minister of Finance whether he would change the forest cut area to go into the Swan River area in the original negotia tions. The Minister of Finance, in August of 19 88, said he would not. He would use the original criteria for the forest cut area. After 19 89, we saw that the forest cut area was dramatically changed by the Minister of Finance in terms of moving south into the other areas of the province of Manitoba.

Why did the Minister of Finance not include in his conditions of negotiations with Repap the whole area of the forest cut area, within the province of Manitoba, as one of the conditions that he would put on the table so that we can finally see some value- added jobs in the Swan River area? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Madam Deputy Speaker, I am kind of perplexed at the question because indeed, if the member has seen the transfer of letters back and forth , he would know that indeed we have saved for ourselves the right to either include or exclude the southern cutting area.

I mean, that is one of the issues that will be brought to the restruc turing process. There always will be a balance. If this is going to be a world-size investment, ob viously, it has to have economics associated with that. Members opposite will know that that sometimes req uires a larger area of which to draw fibre than otherwise might be the case. Our last deal, of course, involved the southern wood area of the Swan River, and it may or may not come to a point where that may have to be included again. What we are saying is, we have a very open mind on it as we enter again the restruct uring process. * (1 345)

752 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA February 27, 19 92 Repap Manitoba Inc. Employment Creation Strategy Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas): Madam Deputy Speaker, my questions are also directed to the Minister of Finance. Well, once more Repap has told this government to jump and they have made the big jump. In view of the fact that the promised best efforts at jobs of the origi nal deal which has fallen flat, what job guarantees will this minister be negotiat ing now, now that the deal has tot ally unravelled for citizens of The Pas and the surrounding area? Hon.

Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Madam Deput y Speaker, I would remind the member opposite, this is what has happened in the last year within th e forest products industry. Abitibi-Price, Thunder Bay- closed; Cascade, Jon qui ere, Queb ec- cl osed ; Cascade , Port-Car tier, Quebec-closed; Donohue, Mat ane, Quebec-closed; Fr aser Incorp orated , Athoville, New Bru nswick-closed; Domtar, Red Rock, Onta rio-indefinite shutdown; Stone Consolidated, Bathurst, New Brunswick-indefinit e shutdo wn; Canadian Paci fic Forest Produ cts-indefin ite shutdown at Trois-Ri vieres, Quebec.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the old Manfor plant, which represented such a tremendous economic benefit to The Pas and district and, indeed, to many of the members of The Pas Indian band and environs is open today . The work force , although down somewhat, still is being productively utilized. I can say to the member, this plant is still operating, and it is not costing the taxpaye rs of this province $30 million a year. I would think the member would be thankful for that fa ct. Employment Protection Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas): Madam Deputy Speaker, my question is again to the Minister of Finance.

What contingency plan does this minister have to protect the jobs of The Pas and surrounding communi ties if the financial problems of Repap continue or worse n? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Madam Deputy Speaker, I am not going to speculate as to the future viability of Repap. I say one thing, though. I am thankfu l that it is Repap, because what you have in that organization, you have a forest product concern that has the most state-of-the -art technology and plant in Canada. They are also in value- added product , paper, that the other pulp producers are not.

I am led to believe, as I talk to the investment houses, that indeed this company is very well poised for the next economic rebou nd, and indeed its debt problems should be behind it in pretty quick or der once the economy recove rs. Budget Impact on The Pas, Manitoba Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas): Since northern Manitoba and The Pas in particular were major losers in the last provincial budget, will this minister guarantee today that he will take into account the situation fac ing the residents of The Pas in finalizing his budget over the next few years?

We just simply cannot afford any more cuts in jobs, educa tion, training or in natural resource s. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Madam Deputy Speaker, I kind of resent the qu estion because I know we have made a comm itment of $50 million plus. I wonder whether or not, in concert, the member wrote that question from the member for Flin Aon (Mr. Storie) when we put $50 mill ion toward a refurbishment of the smelter at Flin Flon. I wonder if his stat ement then is specifically directed for The Pas when he says northern Manitoba.

I would say to the member opposite that the greatest protection his constituents have is obviously the continuing development with respect to the fibre source and indeed the forest products industry in and around The Pas. I would think the member opposite would be encouraging us to restructure this deal in the best way to protect the interests of his constitu ents and indeed the economy of our province. I would think that would be the No. 1 issue in the mind of the member for The Pas. • (1 350) Repap Manitoba Inc. Benefits to Manitoba Mrs.

Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to take this House back a couple of years when we heard the glowing forecast of what was going to happen as a result of the sale of Manfor to Repap. One of the issues that I raised over and over again was the issue of whether we were, at any point in

February 27, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 753 time, going to receive any cash benefit. The Minister of Finance said, and I quote: She was talking nonsense. We are going to get $1 32 million over several years. He said: To say other wise, is to say I am lying. Will the Minister of Finance tell the House today just how much of that $13 2 million the Treasury of Manitoba has received ? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Madam Deputy Speaker, one of the great ironies of this continuing serial, I suppose one could use, is that it is because- An Honourable Member: It is a nightmare.

Mr.Manness: Well, the member says a nightmare. I do not know how it is a nightm are when Manfor is em ployi ng people and pro duc tion is being maintained. Specific to the question, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is because the origina l deal was so well structured , in my view, and because toda y, in my view, we could approach the courts if we wanted to and realize a significant portion of the sum of money of which th e memb er uses. Beca use the deal is so hard structured is the reason why Repap is asking us to restructure it.

I would say to the member, if she wants us basically as a province to realize, on the incredible cove nants that we have in the contract, to guarantee in large measur e the amount of money she is talking about, then she has to tell us also how it is that we are going to maintain the operation at Manfor if Repap is then forced into insolvency because of that action. That then rests on her shoulders, because that is what is at issue here. Renegotiation Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): The answer is, we have not received one of those $13 2 milli on.

Let me go on to quote again from this mi nister. In a response to a state ment that I had made that the sale agreement leaves many questions, the Minister of Finance said he could not understand his opponents' reac tions, quote: I can understand why Mrs. Carstairs is confused. It is a compl icated deal, and she has a limit ed understanding of how a divestiture is carried out, but there is no excuse for Mr. Stori e.

Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, sexism aside, can the Minister of Rnance tell us how this wonderful cfrvestiture needs to be renegotiated today in light of the disaster negotiation that he negotiated the first time, and will he back away from doing the renegotiations and resign? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Madam Deputy Speaker, I found out early on, when I came into public life, one should not take those types of state ments so personally. They come and go with the flow of debate-[inter jection] Yes, particularly when this new cabinet was being sworn in.

I can remember some of the complim entary remarks that were made at tha t t ime by the member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstair s). If the Rrst Minister . (Mr. Rim on) so wishes to delegate the responsibility to somebody else to restructure the deal, I will certainly abide by that request. My feelings will not be hurt in the least. I say to the member opposite , when we structured the agreement, we realized at the time that expediency was necessary because pulp prices were at an all-time high. They were at $700 a tonne, reac hing to $800, ultimately to $850 a tonne.

We realized that, as most commodi ty pr ices do cycle, it would only be a matter of time that those pulp prices would begin to drop, and we hoped that construction would be well along before that event occ urred. That did not happen. The member knows why that did not happen.

She knows that there were environmental processes that took longer than expected but, nevertheless, were very nec essary. • (1 355) She also knows that in some cases there were points brought forward by the members opposite that may or may not have helped the delay, contributed to the delay, but the net result was Repap got caught in the time when pulp prices dropped to $500 a tonne. If the members are saying that we should have known what the forest product industry was going to do as far as commitment towards bottom lines, I say to her, for that, I apologize.

We did not know that, but hindsight is perfect , is it not? Mrs. Carstalrs: Foresight helps. The minister tells us that he has some performance guarant ees. This company has defaulted on every single one of its performance guarantees in the contract signed by this minister in March of 198 9. They were to have commenc ed conve rsion of the unbleached pulp mill

754 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA February 27, 19 92 by December 31 , 19 89; they defau lted. They were to have comme nced the chipping facility at Swan River by Dece mber 31 , 19 89; they defau lted. They were to maintain employment levels; they have defau lted. They were to have put $5 million into tr aining; they have defaulted . Exactly what performance guarantees is this mi nister going to renegotiate ? Mr. Man ness: Madam Deputy Speaker, I wish the member would be completely honest when she tries to lay out that chronology. Point of Order Mrs.

Carstalrs: Madam Deputy Speaker, the Minister of Finance has questioned my honesty in this House. I would ask him to retract that sta tement immediately. Madam Deputy Speaker: On the point of orde r, I would recommend that all members of the House use discretion in the choice of their wor ds. *** Mr. Manness : Madam Deput y Speaker, I apologize if the member is insulted.

I will say, though, that what really happened, with respect to the delay, occurred not as a result of our environme ntal process, because Repap did have a Phase 1 licence to proc eed, but they also had sought advice from Ott awa and were told by federal authorities that they may very well need a screening and indeed a panel to provide a federal licence with respect to Phase 1 . H the member would only put that on the record also, then I think she would state her case somewhat more clearly. Madam Deputy Speaker, she can try to malign Repap, but this is what Repap has done in the last two or three years.

They put together the new, sound bulk fuel unloading and storage facilities constructed to replac e facilities which led to mill site ground water contamination by Manfor. They have a new domestic sewage system installed, a new sanitary landfill fac ility constructed costing $5 million. They have also tota lly suspended solids from the pulps, and paper mills' effluent have been reduced by 46 percent from 198 8 levels, reduced particula te emissions from the mills recovery boiler by 66 percent.

They comm itted to reforestation of 1 00 percent of har vested areas , a gr eater comm itment to reforestation than was req uired of Manfor at that time. In '91 they planted 7.25 million trees. In 19 88 Manfor planted 2.9 mil lion trees. I could go on and on as to what Repap has done under the agreement and the com mitmen t to the province. * (14 00) They have lived up to significant numbers of the cove nants under the agr eement. For the member to try and malign that co mpany, who has come forward and cleaned up such a dismal mess, I think is shameful, Madam Deputy Speaker. Repap Mannoba Inc.

Employment Creation Strategy Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): The Repap saga: The Minister of Finance, two and a half years ago, walking out of comm ittee meetings on the eve of the signing of the agr eement; the Liberal Party which opposed renegotiation of the agreement the last election; and now we see the Minister of Finance wh o-[i nter jec tion ] Well, we ha ve the adver tisements for the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carst airs). We have the ads. My question is to the Minister of Finance who still does not seem to underst and. He still seems to be the major cheerleader for Repap in this province.

Just this week, northern residents have received further notice in terms of employment. Repap employees in Thompson-Wabowden have been told that all conventional skidding operations will cease. They will be laid off and be replaced by an in-bush chipping operation which will require them to come up with a quarter of a mil lion dollars to save their jobs. I would like to ask the Minister of Finance: Is this his version of maintaining employment in northern Manitoba? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): The company last fiscal year lost $1 80 million.

I am not terribly familiar with the J�tter that has gone out and probably specific questions as to why or how come or why the letter should be directed towards the com pany, but I wo ul d have to think a $1 80-million Joss in fiscal 1 991 probably is part of the ra tionale for the let ter, at least the part ref erenced by the member opposite. As far as changing techniques of harvesting or indeed bringing forward wood supply, I would think,

February 27, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 755 given that structural change is in our midst, is everywhere in the new globalized economy, I would have to think that no business in Manitoba is going to be spared having to undergo some types of changes. The commitment that this government will make in restru cturing the six-month window is to try to ensure that the same number of jobs will still be there as a result of Repap coming and doing what It can in support of the new faci lity, indeed of the major economic contri bution that it plans to make to this province in the years to come. Mr.

Ashton: How can this minister talk in his letter to the vice-chairman of Repap Enterprises about maintaining employment- Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Is the honourable member for Thompson phrasing his question? Mr. Ashton: Yes, Madam Deputy Speaker, I asked how can this mi nister - perhaps if memb ers opposite would listen-talk about maintaining levels of employment in his letter to Repap when, at this very moment, employment is being cut back through mechanization, when employment is being cut back in Thompson-Wabowden and in the Woodland area as well?

How can he talk about maintaining employment when it is being cut on a daily basis? Mr. Manness: This government is not going to force a company that is prepared to invest $1 billion plus to maintain the harvesting systems that have been in place for virtually decades . Change is a fact of life. Every one of us adopts it in our livelihoods, indeed our lifestyle s, from day to day.

What the member seems to be saying is, government, do not renegotiate or restructure this deal unless there is a commitment to every job as it exists today, not the total number but in the manner, in the condition and in the form in which it exists today. I would say to him, that would put a yoke on Repap, indeed, that I do not think they could accept . Mr.

Ashton: Madam Deputy Speaker, will the minister at least take the time to sit down with Repap, do something he has never done since this agreement was signed, and find exactl y what their plans have been in terms of northern Manitoba, the plans which are cutting employment on a yearly basis in a way that has very little to do with the economics of the situation and shows absolutely the lack of guarantees in this agreement on behalf of this government? Mr. Manness: Madam Deputy Speaker, I guess that is what makes the philosophical difference between the member opposite and myself.

He wants to deal in politics, the heavy hand of government forcing, not numbers of jobs now, but the form of jobs,

whereas we on our side say, leave that to the corporate decision of that company working toward hopefu lly a profit. I am saying, I said employment. I said the same level of employment, and that is a condition in which we will try to work toward. The member opposite is saying that they should not change the method in which they harvest fibre. I am saying that Is not a precondition. The total number of work force is a condition that we will atte mpt to achieve if indeed we can restructure. I remind you, Madam Deputy Speaker, if we cannot restructure this, we fall back to the old agreement.

Consumer Warning Odometer Tampering Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Deputy Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Aff airs. Despite being repeatedly asked to investigate reports of odometer tampering on Monday and Tuesday, this minister refuses to do anything. Yesterday, she contradicted the RCMP and said there was no prob lem. My question is straightforward. Who should Manitobans believe, the minister or the RCMP? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not believe I contradicted the RCMP. I understand the member's interpreta tion.

The RCMP are taking the situation very seriously indeed in that they have discovered a case in which-and perhaps more than one case- they have had odometers rolled back. From our department's experience, we have received no calls on the issue, so in that sense there is no widespread outcry from consumers to the government. There is, however, a serious concern on the part of the RCMP, which we share.

I indicated , when the member raised this issue several days ago, prior to the RCMP having the opportu nity to release the facts to the public, that once the RCMP had made their public state ment, I would be prepared to make comment. Yesterday they released their state ments, and I am today prepared to make comment. My departmen t works, as you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, in close contact with the law

756 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA February 27, 19 92 enforcement agencies in a number of areas . This morning my investigative unit of the Consumers' Bureau has been in touch with the RCMP Customs and Excise, the two officers in charge of this case, to offer our support should they feel that it would be helpful. They have not requ ested this support at this time, but that contact has been made, our support offe red, and we will be- Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I believe the answer to the first question has been put. * (14 1 0) Mr.

Maloway: It was that attitude that cost the last consumer minister his seat at the cabinet table. Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member for Elmwood please put his supplement ary question now. Mr. Maloway: Is this minister now prepared to issue a public warning and to work with the RCMP to protect consumers in this provi nce? Mrs.

Mcintosh: Perhaps the member did not hear my answer when I said that my investigative officers have already contacted the RCMP to offer our support and that we will take our lead from the RCMP as to what is the appropriate form of support to offer so that we do not jeopardize but rather enhance the work that they are doing. Mr. Maloway: That was no answer to the question- Madam Deputy Speaker: Or der, please. I would like to take this opportunity to remind all honourable members that supplementary questions should be very explicit and very dir ect, and there is to be no

preamble. Mr. Maloway: Madam Deputy Speaker, we have consistently asked for a public warning. Will the Minister of Consumer Affairs issue a public warning with a telephone number so that people who have used cars in this prov ince can bring them forward to check for tampering of the odometers? That is what we are asking. Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Deputy Speaker, I repeat, we have contacted the RCMP to offer that kind of support, and if, in the opinion of the RCMP, they feel that us issuing a stat ement would be of assistance to the m, then of course, we are prepared to do it.

We will take our lead from the RCMP who are the ones who are handling this investigation. My officials are in com munic ation with the RCMP to seek direction from them on this issue. They will indicate to us precisely what they need us to do if they wish us to do anything, and we will pleased to oblige in that regard. Repap Manitoba Inc. Expenditures Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): In response to my earlier question, the Minister of Finance indic ated a number of expenditures that have been made by Repap in The Pas complex.

Can the Minister of Finance te ll the House today how much money above the $1 2.5 million left in the Treasury by Manfor has been expended by Repap in The Pas complex? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Madam Deputy Speaker, to this point, we have paid billings, and I may have to correct this, it seems to me betw een $3 million and $4 milli on to Repap in support of asbestos clean-up in the plant and also for some ground water remedial work.

I can indic ate to the member, some of the est imates coming back in support of trying to clean up the bunker oil in the ground water supply, and this is the key point, could be well in excess of the cash amount kept by the province. That was the degree of pollution that existed at that site. Mrs. Carstalrs: I think the minister misunderstood . I was not asking about the governmen t' s expenditures. I was asking about the monies which were left in the Manfor account and transferred to Repap, which amounted to $1 2.5 million.

Have the expenditures of the Repap corporation in The Pas forest complex exceeded, and by how much, the $1 2.5 milli on? In other wor ds, how much have they spent of their own money? Mr. Manness: Madam Deputy Speaker, the day that the deal was consum mated, I received a cheque from Repap for $42 million, as I recall, and I wrote a cheque to them for $30 mill ion. The reason I remember that is I deposited it personally in a branch of the Royal Bank in The Pas. When the memb er wants to focus on this so-called $1 0 million cash, we entered into an agreement. We were paid that much and more for that cash. Mrs.

Carstalrs: Madam Deputy Speaker, I will ask the minister to reread his agreement aboutthe $1 2.5 million left in the hands of Repap and Manfor.

February 27, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 757 Employment Creation Strategy Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): My final question to the minister is: When he state s he is going to maintain comparable levels of emp loym ent in this rene goti ated set tlement, is he com mitted to the 650 jobs, someti mes less, at Manfor at the present time or the 1 ,200 they promised us in 19 89? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Madam Deputy Speaker, I am not going to negotiate on the floor of the Legislatu re.

I can say to the memb er opposite, certainly the goal and the objective is to try and drive the restructu ring up to the 1 ,200 number that was contemplated within the first agreement. Seafood Enterprises Associates Agreement Mr. Edward Connery {Portage Ia Prairie): Madam Deputy Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism . When the NDP were in power, they lent out money fo olishly in the sense of job creati on. We saw what they did in the Jobs Fund, the hundreds of millions of dollars that were wasted and no long-term jobs created.

In opposit ion, they are sti ll encouraging this government to spend money fo olishly, as he is wanting the government to entertain an agreement with SEA. Could the Minister of Industry , Trade and Tourism explain to this House why it would not have been in the best interests of the taxpayers and the money if we went into that agreement? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Deput y Speaker, I appreciate the que stion from the honour able member, primarily because I have a great deal of conce rn about the news release that was issued today by the member for Ain Flon (Mr. Stor ie).

All it can tell me is that not ample enough research was done on his behalf in terms of rev iewing this issue, and that is not doing justice to this Chamber or to the citize ns of Manitoba. I will do something that we normally do not do. We atte mpt to negoti ate in good faith with companies. We atte mpt to do it on the basis of confiden tial ity , but I feel because of the announcement that they put forth today, the members of the oppositi on, that I should at least give some of the parameters of the final request from this parti cular company that has been referred to, Seafood Enterprises Associate s.

The nature of the request, Madam Deputy Speaker, was for guarantee s-- Madam Deputy Speaker: Or der, please. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Second Opposition House Leader): Yes, on a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker, the rules in Beauchesne are very clear in terms of answers to questions, that they should be brief. If the minister wishes to get into the detail of this matter, he should more appropriate ly use the opportunity of ministerial state ments to bring that forward to the Legislature.

Other wise, I would suggest you call him to order and ask him to remain brief in his answers as is required by our rules. Madam Deputy Speaker: Or der, please. On the point of or der, I would just once again caution all honour able memb er s, in issuing qu est ions, demanding responses and issuing responses, to keep them as brief as possible. *** Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Deputy Speaker, the que stion was about the details of these negotiati ons, and that is exactly what I am outli ning, related to two areas in terms of a request from our provincial government for guarantees as they relate to operating capital , guarantees as they relate to investments by the individuals and the comp anies associated . The annual guarantees would be in the vicinity of $20 mi llion. Over 10 years, ac cumula ted guar antees of $1 55 milli on for the creation in year 1 of approximately 1 00 jobs and by the end of year 4, pote ntially increasing to 18 6 jobs.

I should point out that part of our normal practices are to take back security. The original book value of the fixed assets would be a maximum of approximately $1 4 million. In closing, we are worki ng hand in glove with Western Diversificati on. We have replied to the company, we have put forth a reasonable offer, and we will con tinue to work with the company. I look forward to a supplementary question. • (1 420) Madam Deputy Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired.

758 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA February 27, 19 92 Nonpolitical Statements Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Madam Deputy Speaker, might I have leave to make a nonpolitical stat ement? Madam Deput y Speaker: The honou rable member for Kildonan has requested leave to make a nonpolitical state ment. Does the honourable memb er for Kildonan have leave to make a nonpolitical state ment? Leave has been granted . Mr. Chomlak: Madam Deputy Speaker, members of the House. I had the honour yesterday of atte nding the second annual "Yes, I Can Awards" sponsored by the Manitoba Council for Exceptional Ch ildr en.

The awards were prese nted to exceptional chi ldren and youth in the cat egories of Academics, Arts, Athletics, Community Services, Employm ent, Extrac ur ricular Activities and Independent Living Skills. Winners of the awards included Michael Storo zuk for Employment. Michael is extremely proud of being able to hold a job. Paul Gosselin for Acade mics; Pau l is happy to partici pate in classroom discussions and finish his work. Trevor Snippe for Aca demics; Trevor enjoys using the computer to work independently in his classroom .

Monique Couture for Aca demics; Monique excels in her aca demic learning and consist ently gets good grades . Myron Barten for Extracu rricular; Myron is very proud when he learns something new; Adam Wakeman for Aca demics. Adam is self motivated to succeed. John Rokosh for Independent Living Skills; John has taken the ini tia tive and learned many inde pendent living skills. Shirley Kanak for Acade mics ; Shirley perseveres and gets good grades. Michelle Baker for Independent Living Skills; Michelle is pleased that she is able to get arou nd ind ep enden tl y.

Janet Mur doch for Independent Living Skills; Janet is thrilled that she is able to communi cate and ac tively participa te in school. Emery Davis for Acade mics; Emery is a dedicated student who earns good grades and is looking forward to post-secondary studies. Jeffery Parkes for Athletics; Jeffery's outst anding performance in sports is commendable. Rebecca Brow nlee for Athleti cs; Becky enjoys golfing with family and friends. Kristi Brownlee for Athletics ; Kristi's determina tion has enabled her to golf com petitiv ely.

Ashlee Beyak for Independent Living Skills; Ashlee's com munication using sign language has enabled her to participate in all aspects of school life. Chris Nicolas for Acade mics; Chris takes pride in his achievemen ts in public speaking. Danny Regnier for Independent Living Skills; Danny is enjoying his newl y fo und independence in the com munity and at school. Peter Lebetzis for Employment; Peter is proud of the responsibility he has while working in the co mmu nity. Ch arlene Graff for Employment; Charlene likes the friendships she has made while working and volunteering in the communi ty.

Connie LaBossiere for Arts; Connie has been recognized for her abilities in poetry writing. Patri cia Duffy for Employment; Patricia was a valued member of the W.O. W. Summer Pr ogram . Kiley Robin for Independent Living Skills; Kiley is very proud of his accomplishmen ts especially In his drivers licence. Gimmi Vaccaro for Employment; Gimmi is proud to be an independent, contributing member of the work for ce. Hazel-L ynn Carganilla for Acade mics; Hazel works dil igently and has acce pted mo re responsibility for her learning.

I also would like to recognize the fact that outsta nding achievement awards were presented to persons or a group of persons in contribution for CEC by the CEC and these incl uded Marion Robisong from Brandon School Division for Program Development, KinKids Summer Program at The Pas for Program Development and St. Vital Summer Supported Employment Program ofthe St. Vital School Division. I am sure all members of the House will join me in congratu lating these outstanding individuals, their teachers, schools, school divisions and all involved with Exceptional Children, Madam Deputy Speaker. Thank you very much.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): May I have leave to make a nonpolitical state ment? Madam Deputy Speaker: Does the honourable member for Transcona have leave to make a nonpolitical stat ement? Leave? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Madam Deputy Speaker: Leave has been grant ed. Mr. Reid: Madam Deputy Speaker, last evening the Manitoba Council for Exceptional Children held their "Yes, I Can" Awards night in conj unction with the 26th annual conf erence. The MCEC "Yes, I Can" Awards are presented to exceptional chil dren

February 27, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 759 and youth to acknowledge their achievements in the following categories: Academics, Arts, Athletics, Community Service, Employment, Extra curricular Activities and Independent Living Skills. Eigh t school divisi ons were re presented, including the River East School Division where seven-year-old Adam Wakeman, son of Debbie and Murray Wake man, acc epted the award for Acade mics. I was pleased to join with many ot hers in honou ring exceptiona l ch il dren but was particularly proud that my godson Adam was a recipient.

Adam, like many exceptional children, is a young person who has overcome many serious obst acles in his young life, but his accom plishments and achievements have been outstanding. Adam is self-motivated to succeed. Involved with Adam's progress as part of the special needs education and playing a positive role in the development are Principal Joan McCrea th, Vice Principal Larry Hoffman, Special Education Consultant Phylis Froese, Para-Professionals Judy Scales, Vivian Garrity and Mrs. Vicky Hrabuluk as well as Guidance Councillor Helga Berger.

These individuals are dedicated in their efforts to provide equal opportunities and recognize the needs of all chil dr en. They are a credit to their chosen profess ions. I am sure that all members will join with me in congratu lating the children, their families and the educators on their tremendous achievements. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness {Government House Leader): Madam Deputy Speaker, would you call adjourned Debate on Second Readings, the bills in the or der as shown on the Order Paper.

DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 6-The Denturlsts Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Orchar d) , second reading of BillS (The Denturists Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les dentu rologiste s), st anding in the name of the honour able member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia- Leis). Is there leave to permit the bill to stand? Leave? An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Deputy Speaker: Leave has been granted. Bill 9-The Economic Innovation and Technology Council Act Madam Deputy Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable First Minister (Mr. Filmon), to resume debate on second rea ding of Bill 9 (The Economic Innovation and Technology Council Act;

Loi sur le Conseil de !'innovation economique et de Ia technolog ie), standing in the name of the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans). Is there leave to permit the bill to remain st anding? Mr. Leonard Evans {Brandon East): I am prepared to speak on the matte r. Madam Deputy Speaker: You are prepared to speak? Mr. Leonard Evans: Madam Deputy Speaker, I am pleased to be able to participate in the debate on Bill 9, relating to the est ablishment of the Economic Innovation and Technology Council.

Certainly, it goes without saying that such a council and the objectives that have been stated in the bill and expressed by the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) in his exp lan ation of the bill last week are commen dable. Certainly the objec tive, as has been stated, is to build a stronger Manitoba economy. I believe that there can be no quarrel whatsoever with that objective . Indeed, we face serious problems in terms of our long-term economic development.

There are all kinds of information indicating not only problems in the short term, which relate to high unempl oyment that we are havi ng, busine ss bankruptcies, lagging ret ail sales, lagging housing starts, et cetera, but also we have information indicati ng a structural decline in our province where Manitoba vis-a-vis other provinces in this country is shrinking; its economy is shrinking in terms of the national economy. Therefore, regrett ably, we have bec ome and are becoming less of a significant part of the economic pie, if you will, economic whole of this country of ours.

No one I suppose can object to Bill 9 in essence, because it is something that members of the opposition have advocated for sometime, that we have to spur technological development, we have to spur innovation . * (1 430)

760 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA February 27, 19 92 Madam Deputy Speaker, let it be clear from the outset that this is not original. I am concerned that in many ways it may be more of PR exercise than something that has real meaning, because as I will get into lat er, you can examine the new terms of reference of the existing Manitoba Research Council and note that it has the ability to do just about all that this council is being asked to do. As a matter of fact, as I understand , the council is absorbing the MRC, the Manitoba Research Council.

Therefore , I am not so convinced that we have anything that is new here, perhaps a different name, perhaps some changes at the periphery, some det ailed changes. In essence, this is not necessarily a new thrust. Having said that, I suppose one would argue, well, we have to do everyth ing we possibly can.

Let us face it though, Madam Deputy Speaker, we are facing a great number of obstacles in trying to promote the development of Manitoba, in trying promote economic growth , because we have a federal government that is det ermined to keep unemployment at exceedingly high levels, in fact historic high levels, I would say higher than anything we have seen since the Great Depression. We have an unemployment level across the country approac hing one and a half million people, and the government itseH is not predicti ng much of an im pro vem ent wha tsoe ver, the federal government.

In this province alone last month, we had 50,000 Manitobans out of work, an all time high in the recorded history of the labour force . I say we have a federal budget that is really not giving any guidance, any direction to our economy. In fact, I detect Mulroney and Mazankowski and the federal Conservative government as really sitting back, waiting for something to happen, waiting for the Americans to do something, waiting for some hopeful great event that somehow or other is going to spark economic growth again in this country of ours.

The fact is, Madam Deputy Speaker, the federal budget has not addressed the major problem of unemployment, and therefore , when you have a lot of unem ploymen t you cannot possibly have adequate economic gro wth, whether you have a council of this kind or not. I might add in passing, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is ironic that the federal government, as one of its cost -cutting measures, should see fit to elimi nate the Science Council of Canada, of all things to see this government elimin ate, as well as the Economic Council of Canada.

It is absolutely foo lish to talk about cutting off sources of informat ion, sources of knowledge, sources of ideas when they are badly needed. To that extent, I guess I could argue that I am pleased to see this

part icula r council is being set up, although as I indicated , it is not necessarily anything really new. The other problem that we have, Madam Deputy Speaker, we can have all the councils we have, but as I said, we have a federal government that is determined to keep the recession going in this country. It is determined not to address the No. 1 problem that we have of lack of growth and high unemployment. Of course, we are living in a world of growing free trade with the Amer icans, and as we know full well, this has been a total disaster in this country.

It has certainly been a total disaster in the province of Manitoba where we have lost many important manufactu rers. As I said, you can have all the innovation and technology councils that this gove rnmen t wants to est ablish, as is being estab lished in this bill, but if you have Government of Canada policies such as free trade which this government supported inci dentally, how do you expect to support sti mulation? How do you expect to support the growth of our industries? What we are seeing today, Madam Deputy Speaker, is dem ise , the demis e of our manufactu ring sector.

There are all kinds of foods and beverage companies that have gone under. There are companies that have shif ted back to the United States. In my own consti tuency of Brandon East, we have lost Marrs Leisur e Products, one of the first traged ies of the Free Trade Agreement. They shut down. We lost 44 jobs in Brandon thanks to free trade. They moved down to North Carolina. Toro Engines in Steinbach, another case in point. Free trade came along; there was no more incentive for them to stay in Steinbach, to stay in Canada.

They closed shop and moved back to their headquarters and are manufactu ring nicely, thank you very much, in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area and sending them back to Canada. Then you couple that with the GST which has str uck a blow at consumer confi dence.

February 27, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 761 We talk about the need to create a positive clima te for growth . The Premier (Mr. Film on) often says that we must create a positive clima te. Well, how do you get a positive clima te if you do not have sufficient demand for the output of our industries? That is the basic problem we are facing today, Madam Deputy Speaker, this lack of aggregate demand for the output of this country, and this is true for the province as well. We do not have sufficient demand for the goods and services that we can produce; therefore , we are underpro ducing.

We have underutiliz ation of our industry. The existence of the GST alone has undermined consumer spending. Consumers are rebelling. Consumers are simply not spending to the degree that they have been in previous times. There are negative figures right across the country, including Manitoba, in terms of consumer spending. So the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) wants to create a positive clima te, but you cannot do that with this type of environment that you get from federal government policies, not to mention other things, such as attac king the Post Offi ce, and deregulation, and all the other things that have hur t this province enormously. Deregulation in the transportation industry is killing the transport industry as we know it in this province. Our trucking industry is going down the tube. Our railway industry is becoming less and less signif icant, and we are not getti ng the air transport service that we used to have.

A great deal of this can be attributed to deregulation and federal transport policies of the Mulr oney government. So I say, we have all these obstacles to contend with, and the council, as indicated in the bill, will have some capacity to do some research and so on, but I do not know whether that will be the source-be -aU, end-al l-of creating economic growth in this province.

I spent some time recently looking at what happened to Manitoba's economy in 19 91 and I would assume this would be one of the functions of this council, because, as is referred to in the bill, as tabled in the House, there would be a certain amount of research relating to innovation and growth, and advice given to government, advice given to industry. If they were now established and looking at what was happening to our economy, they would be very dismayed because what happened in 19 91 was that our economic perf ormance, looking at 11 basic indic ators, showed a decline in eight of the 11 indicators .

Of the 11 indic ators that I looked at, Madam Deputy Speaker, eight declined from 19 90 levels and the ot her three re main ed approximat ely the same. While you can say, so what, we have had a national recession, the problem is, and as I will explain shortly, that we have declined even more than the other provinces, which should cause us all to be upset and concerned in this House. As I have said, we have these neo-Conservative policies of free tra de. They were certainly not the policies of Sir John A. Macdonald .

As a matter of fact, the policy of the Mulr oney government is diametrically opposite to the policy of the first Conservative national government in this country. Sir John A. Macdonald est ablished the national policy which included a national tariff, as well as a national transp ortation prog ram , as well as immigration and sett lement. Those are the three pillars of developing Canada as a great nation. Now we have seen the Conservative Party of Sir John A. Macdonald, well, I should take that back, it is not the Conser vative Party of Sir John A.

Macdonal d, over 13 0 odd years later, rev ersing the position, just undercutting the philosophy, the approach of nation building with a national economic policy. What we have are neo-Conservative policies of free tra de, privatizati on, deregulation, high interest rates-insane ly high interest rates-a tight money policy, which has caused, yes, it has caused inflation to red uce, but at the price of an enormous amount of unemployment.

We have seen other spending cuts that have had a catast rophic resu It on our economy. .. (1 440) So what we have, as I was indicating, an economy that is being characterized by high unemployment, by bankruptci es, by factory closures, by escalati ng welfare rolls. Looking at last year, 19 91 , now I have not seen the latest forecast of the Conference Board , but up until a couple of weeks ago, they estimated that we had negative gr owth in Manitoba in 19 91 . We had a general reduction in our economic act ivity. We see other signs of decline. The employment growth rate was negative 2.3.

In other wor ds, the number of people in Manitoba actu ally shrunk in the

762 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA February 27, 19 92 year 19 91 , minus 2.3. Our unemployment rate went up from 7.2 in 19 90 to 8.8 in 19 91 . At the same time, Manitoba continued to lose people, and one stati stic we have from the federal government is on interpro vincial migra tion, and looking at the third quarter of last year, which was the last information we have, we are losing people at a rate of 11. 6 per 1 ,000. In other words, in spite of a recession when usually people do not move because there are not many jobs to go to, we are still losing people at a rate that has not fallen off.

In terms of retail sales, as I was explaining a minute ago, when we talk about retail sales, we talk about consumer spending, and we get the matter of consumer confidence. The fact is that retail sales shrunk in 19 91 by 2.4 percent. There is no question about it that the GST, as well as the unemployment, is hurting the reta il sect or. Urban housing starts were down for about the fourth year in a row.

They were down 36.3 percent, and it is no wonder they are showing signs of Increase now, because they are right at the bott om, they are right at rock bott om, and surely they have no way to go but up, but nevertheless last year a decrease of 36.3 percent. In terms of our farm industries, farm cash receipts declined by 6.3 percent. Manufactu ring shipments declined, this was the latest that I had available at the time of this study-- 13 . 7. I think it has been revised to around 12 percent, but the point is, Madam Deputy Speaker, we were 10 out of 10 .

Our performance In terms of manufactu ring shipments was the worst of the 10 provinces. At any rate , then our overall investm ent was negative . As a matter of fact, the figures have just come out today from Statisti cs Canada showing that our investment last year was $3.5 billi on-that is 19 91 -oo mpared to $3.79 billion in 19 90. In other words, there was a rat her significant decline in overal l capital spending in the province.

They are projecting for this year a slight increase, but they were projecting that last year as well, but what we did get in reality was negative capital investment, otherwise known as "disinvestment." So 199 1 was a poor economic year, and if this Economic Innovation and Technology Council were in existence, and I understand from the legislation it is supposed to table annual reports, or the minister is supposed to table annual reports on behalf of the council, I would presume that they would have to make reference to our economic circum st ances and they would be presumably touching upon this.

I said, Madam Deputy Speaker, the most disturbing information coming out of the recent Stati stics Canada reports is Manitoba's decline relative to the other Canadian provinces during this recession. All provinces have been negatively affected by the economic downturn, but our relative situation has deteriorated in the process. Of these 11 basic economic ind icators, our position worsened in seven cat egories vis-a-vis the ot her pro vi nces. We did im prove in four, but we worsened in seven.

Our economic growth , we rated 10 out of 10 in 19 91 , so we weakened there; our employment grow th, ranked eight out of 10 , we weakened there; our loss on interprovincial migra tion, we were eight out of 1 0, we were near the bottom again in performance, so that was a weakening from the previous year. The same thing with urban housing starts , we were nine out of 1 0, we show weakness there; building permits were eight out of 10 , again, we deteri orated from where we were the year before . Manufac turing shipments, the year before we were six out 1 0, but last year we got to be 10 out 10 .

Lastl y, in terms of total investment, the estima te that we had at the time, we ranked eight out of 1 0 provinces, that was the information we had when we did this study. The fact is that when we declined relative to the other provinces, the reality is we have to ask ourselves a question: Why is Manitoba declining relative to the other Canadian provinces? Wha t is going on her e to show such poor performance?

If you just compare us with the overall Canadian situation in 19 91 , again using 11 economic indic ators , and all of this information is out of Stat istics Canada, there are only two categories where we perf ormed above the Canadian average: one was the rate of unemployment. We have always performed better than the Ca nadian avera ge, ever si nce labou r-force stati stics were calculated. The prai rie provinces were usually among the lowest one, two or three. Unfortunately in this last month, Ontario pushed us out of third spot, and we are now fourth out of 10 .

Overall, in 19 91 , we performed above the Canadian average in unemployment rates just slightly, and also in terms of farm cash receipts.

February 27, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 763 In every other cat egory, Madam Deputy Speaker, our economic indicators were below the Canadian averag e. Average weekly wage s, we were below-population growth, investment, overall economic grow th, retail trade , job creation, manufacturing shipments, building permits, and housing starts. The conclusion is there is no doubt that our province has been badly hurt by the reces sion.

There are a lot of basic reasons for that: Agricultural incomes are down, of course, because of depressed world pric es; our mi nin g sec tor has also experienced lower global prices for the output, so there are some understandable reasons. That has also affected some of the ot her provinces, such as Saskatchewan and Alber ta. I woul d maintain though that we ha ve been hur t also by neo-Conservative policies coming out of Ott awa. Also, to some extent, we have been hurt by this govern ment's refusal to tackle the question of economic growth, refusal to tackle the question of the recession.

Now, I know the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) said, and he said again I believe when he was introducing this bill, that we need a positive clima te, but that means we have to control government spending, and we have to keep taxes low, as though those are going to create economic growth. Well, I am sorry. We have had nearly four years of this government. They have been saying the same thing all along, and we have not had the economic growth.

The fact is it does not matter what the tax rates are, if you cannot sell what you produce, there is not going to be any incentive for any manufacturer, or any type of business person, to invest more money. It would be ludicrous if your business was being under utilized, that you would want to turn around and start to expand the business, start to invest more in the business, regardless of what the tax structure is. We do not have conditions here which have created growth ; we have had conditions, we have had policies, which have slowed down our economy. As I said, the GST has dampened consumer spending.

It has, with all the negative multiplier effects and the tight-money policy of the Bank of Canada, with its high interest rates, not only has discou raged investment but also has kept our Canadian dollar very expensive vis-a-vis the American dollar, which in turn has dampened our exports to that country. Indeed, it has dampened our exports to other countries which has caused further job loss.

All those matters, all those policies, coupled with the Free Trade Agr eemen t, couple d wi th deregulariz ation and privatiza tion, have hur t this province and can explain to some extent what is going on, not only in terms of our current economic situation but our structure. Maybe that is what this bill is supposed to be addr essing, our structure , but, Madam Deputy Speaker, I regret to observe that our economic structure is suff ering. * (1 450) We have seen the federal government move CNR jobs westward out of this province to Alberta.

We have seen the weakening of the trucking industry, and part of that is due to the Free Trade Agreement. We have a pattern of trade now more north and south compared to east-west, therefore, Winnipeg's role as a very critical transportation hub east-west has deteriorated seriously. We regret that this government has no economic plan to deal with this, but as I said, the creation of this council on the surface cannot be criticized except that I am not so sure that we are doing anything new here. The First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) in his introduction of the bill referred to the establishment of $1 0-mil lion funds to be financed from the proceeds of the sale of MOS. Fra nkly, the sale of MDS is very regrett able. Not only have we created a private monopoly that can rip us off in terms of the rates they charge us for computer services, but we had an MDS that was profitable and turned mil lions of dollars back to the government every year. Frankly, that was a bad mistake .

Now to say that you are financing from the proceeds of the sale of MDS is just ludicrous financing, Madam Deputy Speaker, because funding comes ultimately from the Treasury, and the Treasury contains funds from whatever purpose. You cannot say you are going to take it from the sale of one thing and put it into this fund of this council. The monies have to come from general revenues. I want to know how do the funds that this council is supposed to have to dispense compare with what we have had before ? We do not know whether this $1 0-million fund is a one-time grant to the council to

764 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA February 27, 19 92 dispense or whether it is going to become an annual thing. My reading of the Premier's remarks is that it was a one-time effort. I would point out that we used to, with the Manitoba Research Council, for years had mil lions of dollars to dispense by way of grants that this council is supposed to be engaged in. It was something in the order of $2.7 million a year granted . About two years ago, it was $2.9 milli on.

In fact, if you go back to '85-86, the MRC, the Manitoba Research Council, had over $3 million available, again, in '86-87 over $3 million and '87 -88 almost $3 million. Even in last year's budget, they had $2.0 million to dispense with. Inciden tal ly, if you go back to '86-87, there were other monies available in the Manitoba Jobs Fund. The point is, Madam Deputy Speaker, have we really got anythi ng new in this council with the grant monies that it has avai lable?

If you read the description of the Manitoba Research Council, you find that what it was doing and its function was extre mely simil ar to this council.

When you look at it in some depth you wonder, well, what differences are there going to be, because in the report itseH of the Manitoba Research Council for the year ending, I guess, March 31 , 1990 , in the annual report, the description of the Corporate Profile, and I am quoting: "Working closely with industry, government and universities, the Manitoba Research Council (MRC) plays a lead role in encouraging and facilitating scientific research and technological development.

As an agency of the Prov ince of Manitoba, MRC also advises the government on developments ... as they rel ate to the economic and social development of the province. "Throu gh its operating units, MRC assists industry in the development and implementati on of appropr iate technology. MRC provides food technology services from its facility in Portage Ia Prairie and engin eering and envir onmental technology services from its Winnipeg facilities.

MRC has co-operative initiatives with the University of Manitoba in both the mechanical Engineering Departmen t and the Food Sciences Department." It goes on to describe all kinds of services and capabilities of the Manitoba Research Council. It talks about an expanded role that it has had. For the life of me, Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not know then what we are getting with this new council except a different name.

This council is going to absorb the MRC, and I presume the staff of the Manitoba Research Council are going to be part of the Innovation and Technology Council, but really I do not see anything new here. I absolutely cannot see what we are getting that we did not have before. Incidentally, we had Jots of good people, I gather, on the board . There were various people from the communi ty that served on the board . I do not know whether there is a-wel l, reference to- yes, here is the refe rence to the board, Mr. Russ Hood.

Is this the same person that is being asked to head up this same Economic Innovation and Technology Council? What is the differ ence? I mean, John Ingraham , Mr. Bert Beattie from Bristol Aerospace , Dr. Nancy Craven from Clinicom Computing Services, Paul Soubry from Ford New Holland and so on. The point I am making is we have a board here made up of good people. We have a staff. We have a large council represen ting a wide cross-section of food product development, engin eering services, business development, marketing and so on.

All of a sudden we are supposed to have some new thrust with this technology council. As you go through the annual report, you see that they have engaged in all kinds of technological developmen t, al l kinds of innovations, have engaged in various contracts, multimil lion dollar contracts and grants with other people. As a result, Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not know how effective the organization has been, but nevertheless they have obviously been busy.

They enumerate the highli ghts of their success in 19 89-1 990, everything from developing a special coding for diesel engine liners on behalf of Transport Canada. There was another contract undertaken to develop suitable vibration criteria for purchasing of diesel electric gener ating sets larger than 10 0 kilowatt capacity. They did this on behalf of the Canadian Electrical Association and Manit oba Hydro. They condu cted research into plastics. They have gone into research doing testing for roll-over protection for motor vehicle safety test methods.

There is a whole host of activities engaged in by the Manitoba Research Council which has been around for many a year. We really have the same organization virtually, the same organization that we had only with a

February 27, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 765 different title and maybe some other min or administrative changes, some minor changes. The fact is, Madam Deputy Speaker, we cannot oppose the establishment of the council because, who knows, there might be something here that might be a little different. Essentially, it looks more like window-dressing than anything else. I would say, as I indicated earlier, we are not only suffering a cyclical downturn, but we are seeing a very serious structural change whereby the significance of the Manitoba economy is lessened.

Part of it is because there is a shift of manufacturing to lo w-wage areas of the world. We see manufacturing grow up in Asia. We see it growing up in Mexico, and we only hope and pray that we do not get involved and will be aware with the Mexicans that is going to hurt jobs in this country more than they have been hurt with the Free Trade deal with the Un ited State s. Ther e is tha t sh ift of manufacturing going on. Madam Deputy Speaker, could you indicate how much time I have left? Seven minutes? Thank you.

Historically, what has been going on is there has been a shift of industry out of this province and activities to the west of us. That has been well documented. Winnipeg used to be the Gateway to the Prairies, the Gateway to the West. That has declined as you have seen the growth of places such as Edmonton, and Calgary, Regina and Saskatoon. We have seen the shifting out of this province of transp ortation activities, financial activities, distribution activities. Winnipeg used to be a major wholesale warehouse centre, and it is still important, but it has declined. That shift has just gone on continuously.

In the meantime, we are not getting the help we should be getting from the federal government. I maintain that-because I mentioned this at the begi nning, I men tion it again now, federal government policies have a lot to do with the amount of economic growth that can occur in the regions of the country. We, when in government, engaged in various provincial-federal agreements that enabled us to stimulate development in a whole range of industries from manufacturing to energy to tourism and transportation and so on. We do not have these.

For whatever reasons, government has not been as successful in getting monies through these agreements. To that extent, in spite of Western Economic Diversification monies we do not have the funding support that we had years back. I think that this is critical for our economic growth. In fact, what we have had, Madam Deputy Speaker, is the reverse.

We have had the federal government penalizing Manitoba, and the classic case is the CF-18 which should have come to Bristol Aerospace but went to Montreal. * (1 500) In spite of all the speeches made by Jake Epp, we did not get properly compe nsated for that political decision to move it out. Similarly, the federal government through its Crown agency, CNR, has seen fit to see jobs shifted from Winnipeg to Edmonton. That has gone on for some time and may go on in the future. This is a very serious situation, one of our major employers shrinking before our eyes, and there are other examples.

We are not getting the support that we should be getting from the federal government. In the me ant ime, you have the federal government engaging in all kinds of cutbacks that are really hurting potential growth. One of the areas, and my colleague for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) mentioned it yesterday in her question, there has been another year of cutbacks in federal training monies, a hundred million dollars cut back out of the Canadian Jobs Strategy. That has repercussions in this province. The fact is, Madam Deputy Speaker, if we want to have economic growth, we have to do some sound research .

We have to do some sound planning. I am not so sure that this council that is being established is going to be anything different from the Manitoba Research Council which I have described. It can do everything and anything that this council is able to do from my reading of this legislation and my reading of the annual report of the Manitoba Research Council. What we need, Madam Deputy Speaker, is more economic research into our strengths and weaknesses to have some plan, some idea, of where we are going by the year 2000 or the year 2002. Where are we going in the early part of the 21 st Century?

How do we get there? What are our strengths? What are our weaknesses? What should we be emphasizing? What should we be de-emphasizing?

766 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA February 27, 19 92 I have great concern that since peace has broken out in the world, that the evil empire no longer exists, that the incentive is not there for the spending that occurred south of the border, that you will not have a repeat of the Reagan vast huge spending, the billions of dollars spent on defence in the United States by the Reagan administration in particular, and that you have a decline in the rate of growth in the United States which slops over, washes over into Canada and to Manitoba. I am very pessimistic. I do not see us getting out of this recession.

I see this recession continuing on, and then 10 years from now, we will look back and talk about the depression that Oc:curred in the 1 990s, because ther e are jus t not those sufficient investment opportunities for our people. We have lots of savings, perhaps too much savings going on and not enough spending. If you do want to have economic growth, if you want to have economic stimulus, you have to have an increase in spending by consumers, by business through investment and also by government. Madam Deputy Speaker, I understand my time is now completed.

I put those few remarks on the table, and I will say in conclusion that one cannot oppose the establishment of the council, but we are really getting the Manitoba Research Council with another name. Thank you. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Brandon East (Mr. Len Evans), that debate on the bill now be adjourned. Motion agreed to. 81111 0-- The ManHoba Hydro Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Agricu lture (Mr.

Findlay), to resume debate on second reading of Bill 1 0 (The Man itoba Hydro Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur !'Hydro-Manitoba), standing in the name of the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie). Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? An Honourable Member: Leave. Madam Deputy Speaker: Leave? Leave has been granted. 811111- The Bee-Keepers Repeal Act Madam Deputy Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Agricu lture (Mr. Findlay), to resume debate ori second reading of Bill 11 (The Bee-Keepers Repeal Act; Loi abrogeant Ia

Loi sur les apiculteurs), standing in the name of the honou rab le me mb er for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? An Honourable Member: Leave. Madam Deputy Speaker: Leave? Leave has been granted. 811112- The Animal Husbandry Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay), to resume debate on second reading of Bill 12 (The Animal Husbandry Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'elevage), standing in the name of the honourable member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman). Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? An Honourable Member: Leave. Madam Deputy Speaker: Leave? Leave has been granted. 811114- The Highways and TransportaUon Department Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Min ister of Hig hways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger), to resume debate on second reading of Bill 14 (The Highways and Transportation Department Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur le ministere de Ia Voirie et du Transport) , standing in the name of the honourable member for Transcona (Mr. Reid). Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? An Honourable Member: Leave. Madam Deputy Speaker: Leave? Leave has been granted. 81111 �The Hi ghway Traffic Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Min ister of High ways and

February 27, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 767 Transportation (Mr. Driedger), to resume debate on Bill 15 (The Highway Traffic Amendment Act; Loi modifiant le Code de Ia route), standing in the name of the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Stand. Leave has been granted. Bill 20- The Municipal Assessment Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), to resume debate on second reading of Bill 20 (The Municipal Assessment Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur !'evaluation municipale), standing in the name of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? An Honourable Member: Leave. Madam Deputy Speaker: Leave? Leave has been granted. Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Madam Deputy Speaker, I stand to speak today on Bill 20, The Mun icipal Assessment Amendment Act. Bill 20 deals with two things. Firs tly, it will push back the date of the next property reassessment from 19 93, mandated in 19 90 amendments, to 19 94. Secondly, it somewhat streamlines the appeals process.

We have been told that the reasons for pushing back the reassessment date is not that the bureaucracy will not be ready. Madam Deputy Speaker, the minister, as well as officials we met with, said the assessment is being pushed back because of other changes connected with changes in the porti oning system also introduced in 1990. It will kick in in 19 93 and a reassessment also in 19 93 would make for too much change all at once. This has led the minister and his department to conclude that delaying the reassessment to 19 94 will make taxes more understandable. Earlier, I spoke of changes in the portioning system.

Allow me to briefly elaborate on this. Portions are the percentage of market value of a particular property which are subject to taxation. Portions will be set at different values for different classes of property . The 1990 legislation moved assessments to market value of a property. Madam Deputy Speaker, that change would result in dramatic changes in the taxes on many properties since many assessments were very far out of date.

However, the province is adjusting so that each class of property in the province will generate the same proportion of total tax revenue after the move to market value as they did before the move. The rationale for the portioning is that it was agreed that each class of property should generate the same proportion of tax revenue after the move to market value. That is, tax burdens should not be redistributed from one class to another. The government is controlling the tax take through portioning. • (1 510 ) Within each class of property, some will pay more and some will pay less depending on market value changes.

This is the explanation we have received from the minister and the department. Madam Deputy Speaker, we look forward to further debate which will determine whether these measures are indeed in the best interes ts of Manitobans, and we have to listen to Manitobans, and whether Bill20 will accomplish what is intended, and we reserve our questions and concerns for further debate.

As you have no doubt seen, the assessm ent process is not something that is very easy to under stand , and it requires a fair amount of explanation and Manitobans should be explained to, we understand, to get down to the really important parts of the assessment act. Madam Deputy Speaker, the government says that the amendments being proposed are in keeping with the department's ongoing commitment to the improvement of the assessment system.

I would like to indicate that we, the Liberal Party, still have concerns regarding certain issues surrounding the appeals process and so forth, and therefore we look forward in debating this bill further, and we look forward to further debate and to listen to the Manitobans, what they would like to see in this amendment act. Thank you very much. Madam Deputy Speaker: As previously agreed, this bill will remain standing in the name of the

768 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA February 27, 19 92 honou rab le member for Swan Ri ver (Ms. Wowchuk). 811121- The Provincial Park Lands Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), to resume debate on second reading of Bill 21 (The Provincial Park Lands Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les pares provinciaux), standing In the name of the honourable member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans). Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? An Honourable Member: Leave. Madam Deputy Speaker: Leave? Leave has been granted. Bill 22-The Lodge Operators and Outfitters Licensing and Consequential Amendments Act Madam Deputy Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), to resume debate on second reading of Bill 22 (The Lodge Ope rators and Outfitters Licensing and Consequential Amendments Act;

Loi sur les perm is relatifs aux exploitants de camps de chasse et de piche et aux pourvoyeurs et apportant des mo difications correlatives a d'aut res dispositions legislatives), standing in the name of the honourable member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans). Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? An Honourable Member: Leave. Madam Deputy Speaker: Leave? Leave has been granted. Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to have a few minutes to speak to this bill, as Bill 22 could have positive impacts on all lodge operators, and also it could have a very negative impact.

Through debates of this bill, that is what we on this side of the House would like to determine because when you take a look at the whole aspect of lodge owners and operators who are now under the jurisdiction of Industry, Trade and Tourism, one of the big criteria that has to be regulated and enforced is the whole rating system, what is called a star system for rating lodges, cabins and hotel accommodations that tie in with lodge operators. Some of the lodges that have recently been built get a five-star rating, some get a four-star rating and some get a three-star rating.

One of the concerns that I have is if we transfer the responsibil ity to the ju risdiction of Natural Resources, whose real mandate is enforcing fishing regulations, harvesting of the fish and to make sure that there is proper access to the lakes and to ensure that the resources that we have available to us in Manitoba are appropriately shared with the communi ties, aboriginal organi zations and the aboriginal needs in a lot of the communities because a lot of the communities in northern Manitoba depend very heavily on the consumption of fish.

If you have one jurisdiction that is responsible both for the whole tourism industry and trying to regulate the number of fish caught and also trying to prom ote how many touri sts we do get in Manitoba, I would like to hear further how that will work. When you have a look at the lodge operators in Manitoba under tourism right now, there is a lot of promotion that goes on. You hear of all kinds of trade shows that lodge operators and the owners are able to attend. They go down into the States and they go into different countries to promote tourism.

You look at the whole tourism industry, it is really, really vital to the successful economy of Manitoba. Especially in northern Manitoba, there are a lot of beautiful lodges up there like Cranberry Portage and Reid Lake, I could go on and on and on, that depend very heavily on tourism dollars. A lot of times when the lodge owners or their represe ntatives go to the United States, that is where they do a lot of booking for their lodges. When we talk about economic value and dollar value, the average one-week fishing expedition for someone coming from United States into Canada is $1 ,700 for one week.

That brings in a lot of money for those lodge owners, and they need those kinds of resources. We have to make sure that we continue promoting tourism . One of the drawbacks, at least talking to some of the lodge owners personally, was the high Canadian dollar and the GST that we impose here in Canada. A lot of the lodges last year and lodge owners and operators had to cut back drastically. I know one individual, just for an example, every year, had at least the minimum of 30 individuals for

February 27, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 769 a three-day period, so if you double that, it would be 60 individuals a week for one month, and because of our high dollar and the drastic GST, they tried to do a lot of promotion in the United States, where they always had found American sports people. Their operation was cut literally in half. Instead of opening for one month, they were able to only open for a two-week period.

I think that is where Industry, Trade and Tourism, and especially the Department of Tourism, have the expertise and the knowledge to ensur e that we do promote fishing, hunting and lodge operators.

When we look at the whole issue of the lodge operators and the lodge owners and being under the jurisdiction as I mentioned earlier, where Natural Resources' jurisdiction is really issuing the licensing and harvesting to ensur e that the lakes have adequate fish for the sports fishermen and the people who will be consuming those fish, if you have that rolled into one, the other thing that we have to look at very, very closely is, who is going to be in charge of the inspection of the lodges?

Will they be the individuals who have the exper tise under Tourism, or will they be new individuals appointed by Natural Resources? All the people who are now employed in the Department of Tourism under I, T and T, will they be transferred to Natural Resources, or will we see more job cuts?

I think that is a very serious issue because, when you start looking at cutting people with the expertise and replacing with appointments- you see in the bill here where individuals will be appointed by the minister-how can we ensur e that these individuals will have the expertise in order to ensure that everything is done for the most positive aspects of lodge owners in Manitoba?

That is one of the things that we have to look at very carefully. * (1 520) Also the other thing that we have not heard anything about, maybe we will hear later from some of the other debates from the government side, is how much consulting has been taking place with the actual lodge owners to explain exactly what the government wants to do by transferring the lodge owners from Tourism to Natural Resources?

I know that most lodge owners work very closely with conser vation officers, and they see a conservation officer's role as, I guess you could call it, enforcing and policing the fishing regulations and the Migratory Bird Act, and also with rules and regulations pertaining to hunting. What will happen there? Will these individuals also be given added responsibility? They are trained in biology and the expertise of animals and fish. Will they now be given added responsibilities to go around and inspect all the camps and rate each lodge and camp with that star system?

If that will be the case, I think we will have to do some seri ous thinking if we are even able to su pport this kind of transfer of responsibility. There are a lot of questions that need to be asked. We need a lot more information in order for us to support this. Once we get the answers, it might be one darn good idea, but we need more information. Also, we are going to be consulting with lodge owners ourselves to hear what their responses are, because individuals whom I know personally and have talked to, they do not have too much information on exactly what the government's goals are.

I think it is crucial that the government, when they make any initiative or any change, to involve and consult, not with the expertise that is out there, but with the people who are directly involved. When I talk about people directly involved, it is the lodge owners, the aboriginal peoples and the people in those northern communities or even the South where there are lodge owner s, consult the communities to see what is really happening. The lodge owners will have a lot of questions because they benefit greatly from the work the Department of Tourism does.

A lot of them go on a lot of trade shows, and also, the Department of Tourism has done a lot of promotional work on behalf of tourism in Manitoba. That we cannot take lightly because- An Honourable Member: The lodge owners are very happy. Mr. Hlckes: The lodge owners are very happy with the work that Tourism does. That is why we have to be careful to ensure that the expertise in the Department ofT ourism will not be cut adrift, that the expertise will be transferred to the Department of Natural Resourc es.

There are a lot of people in Tourism who have been ther e for years, and they have the expertise in that area. The reason I mention that is because- An Honourable Member: The lodge owners want this to happen. Mr. Hlckes: Not all the lodge owners, because I have spoken to some lodge owners whom I know

770 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA February 27, 19 92 personally. They are not even aware of what this is really all about, and that is why I say consult with the lodge owners and see what they really want. Like I said, some of them do not understand because they have not been given that kind of information. When you talk about individuals who have the expertise, cut adrift and not following to the department that the responsibilities are being transferred to, it has a very detrimental effect on the government, on the organization that is trying to do whatever they are trying to do.

A good example that I will give you that I have been discussing in this Chamber for quite some time is in my critic area of Energy and Mines. It is very relevant to this bill because I am using it as an exact example of what could happen when you cut a branch or branch or government department and do not bring the exper tise along with the new responsibilities of whoever is supposed to be taking that over.

Under Manitoba Hydro, we saw the Manitoba Energy Authority cut adrift, all the people were let go, and that agency was the agency that was out there trying to purchase contracts for Manitoba Hydro in order to fulfill the excess power that Manitoba has. It is not wrong, because if you had that agency in place, you have 300 megawatts coming on stream, or that is access to Conawapa that we have no sales for.

If you had the agency out there negotiating sales for that 300 megawatts plus the thousand megawatts that is already contracted out to Ontario Hydro, then yes, you could say we really do have the need for Conawapa, because we have a hundred percent sales, whether Manitoba needs it or not. That is the kind of stuff that we have to ensure. We have to ensur e that the government does follow through and ensures that the expertise follows the change of responsibilities or, Madam Deputy Speaker, it will not work, because like I mentioned earlier, when you have--even the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr.

Ernst) agreed earlier, the people in Tourism-he said, yes, Tourism does a good job. Here on this side of the House we agree 1 00 percent with that. They do an excellent job; they do their dar ndest job. They are into tough cir cu mstances right now. Last year -and I mentioned earlier about the high dollar and the GST, but also, the other thing that is hurting tourism, which we all recognize, is the state of the economy today. A lot of people do not have the dollars that maybe they had access to in the '80s, early '80s or later part of the '80s, where individuals could dish out, say, $1 ,700 for a week of fishing.

If you had the extra dollars, that was a luxur y that you were able to afford. How many people enjoy fishing? I am sure a lot of people do. A lot of those lodges and operator camps are in very beautiful, beautiful remote places. A lot of them are beautiful lakes and trees, and you have wild animals and ducks surrounding you, and plant life. They are beautiful, beautiful spots. Just to get away for a week, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is amazing how much rest and relaxation a lot of individuals get, because most of those lodges have no access to telephones, which we almost constantly live by, or fax machines.

When we are able to get away from that, that is why you see a lot of executives and business people will take advantage of spending a week at these lodges. That is why we have to ensure-[interjection] No, there are no McDonald's at the corners. You do not need a McDonald's at the corner, because a lot of those lodges and camps-[inte�ection] Yes, that is right. You just drop your hook in, and you catch your own dinner and supper. If you had that opportunity for a fresh shore lunch that is freshly taken out of the lake, you would not want to go to McDonald's around the corner. Never, never.

Pnte�ection] Sometimes you have steak and you have roast for a change. They always give you a couple of choices. That is why, Madam Deputy Speaker- An Honourable Member: George, when are you taking us up there? Mr. Hlckes: Maybe the summer. That is why it is so impor tant that, if ther e is a transfer of responsibilities from Tourism to Natural Resources, the proper supports go along with that transfer.

As I men tioned earlier -and I will re-em phasize, because I think it is very im portant to this debate-the responsibility of Natural Resources, as we see it today, is to enforce the regulations that we have, whether it is sports fishing or whether it is hun tin g. That is the Department of Natural Resources officers' responsibility. They are not there to promote tourism, to attend shows, to make videos and travel all over the country. Their responsibility is to make sure that, when the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst) and I go fishing this summer, we do follow the regulations

February 27, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA and we do not overfish. That is what they are there for. [interjection) He is not that good a fisherman? Well, if he stays under the limit, we will be okay then. That sounds very prom ising. .. (1 530) The other thing is, Madam Deputy Speaker, with the Tourism department and the inspectors that we have and the people who are responsible for rating the lodges, the inspectors who have the expertise in that area, they ensure that the lodge owners keep those cabins and those rooms and accommodations up to that standard. That is their responsibility.

They go and visit, in most cases at least once a year, to every lodge owner. They have to go through a very, very thorough inspection. They will tell them that you do this, you do that, or we will take your rating away. If you have a fwe-star rating which is very high, and a lot of the camps in Manitoba have that five-star rating, if there is no one there to ensur e that those standards are kept up, how long do you imagine it will take for us to lose our tourism industry like in the sports fishing area and also in hunting and the lodge operators and outfitters?

Madam Deputy Speaker, I would just like to conclude by stating, as I mentioned earlier, that this might be a positive step, but it also might be a negative step. The only thing that I caution the minister and the government is that, if you transfer the responsibility of tourism and the promotion of tourism to the Department of Natural Resources, make sure that the exper tise goes along with it and take that expertise to the department that will be responsible and not cut them all adrift and more job losses and more job cuts, and bring in all new people who do not have the expertise.

I think for this to work, that would be very, very crucial. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, we will have more questions for the Department of Natural Resources because there are qu ite a few un answered ques tions yet. We do not know if we will be supporting this bill or not, but we will determine that after we have more responses from the government side. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak to this bill. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I would like to be able to speak on this bill if I might. There are a number of matters I wanted to deal with.

I first of all want to begin by indicating that I echo the sentime nts of the previous speaker who is no stranger to the North, obviously, no stranger to lodges and the many benefits of northern Manitoba in particular, where a vast majority of our lodges are located and the importance in terms of employment for many northern Manitobans in terms of outfitting. In fact, I am pleased to be able to indicate, Madam Deputy Speaker, that there are a number of lodges in my constituency and in close proximity. It is for that reason that I read this bill with interest.

It is a very straightforward bill, but it is a bill that we do have a numb er of questions about. It is also a bill that raises a numb er of other questions about the operation of lodges in Manitoba at the current time, and the plans of the government, and whether indeed it is living up to the real potential, the tremendous potential of northern Manitoba, the lodges that are currently in existence, and the potential for future development that I believe is a sustainable development, in many ways probably the ultimate example of sustainable development. I say that because one finds this is something of a misnomer.

One often talks to people who are under the impression that there is a major impact of the lodges on the surrounding area, but in many cases we are dealing here, as people should be aware, with catch-and-release lodges, where trophy fish are returned to the water, in fact some rather tremendous-sized trophy fish, I might add. Only a very small amount of fish is taken for eating purposes. There is much greater attention than there was in previous years to ensure the long-term viability of the lodges and the fishing lakes that they depend on for their survival. Mr.

Hlckes: Diamond Lake has some of the biggest trout. Mr. Ashton: In fact, the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) points out that Diamond Lake has some of the biggest trout because of that very program . I was just up in the North last week in IIford and talked to the owners of a new operation at Silsby Lake. The Thompsons are well known obviously for their involvement in the com munity of IIford and the catch-and-release program they have had in place since the lodge opened-this is the third year, I believ&-resulting in some record-sized fish being caught.

Once agai n, it is the potential for a very sustainable development, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I want to raise some concerns because I am

772 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA February 27. 19 92 concerned that the government, through its actions, is not only not living up to the potential but is threatening the potential of the lodges in northern Manitoba. There are a number of items I want to point to specifically. One was the elim ination of the classification position. In fact, the member for Point Douglas pointed to the importance of classification of lodges, particularly when you are dealing with the many American tourists who are probably the primary market for lodges and from all over the United State s.

The bottom lin e is, this government eliminated the classification position last year that had been in existence for many years and is now relying on self-reporting and a system that threatens the objective classification of lodges and to my mind could in the long run threaten the standards of that. The Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) shows his ignorance of the lodges.

If he had only been listening a few minutes ago, he would have been aware of the fact that there is a catch-and-release policy in place in lodges in northern Manitoba to the point where our fish stocks not only are not threat ened, but are maintained and enhanced, Madam Deputy Speaker. As the minister should be aware, we have barbless hooks in Manitoba now and have had barbless hooks in place in lodges for many years because of the concern of lodge operators to maintain fish stocks. If the Minister of Health is not aware, I am sure maybe the member for Portage (Mr.

Connery), who I know has paid some attention in the past in terms of tourism issues, and I know he is aware of some of the concerns of lodge operators from his previous involvement as a critic in that light, might wish to educate the Minister of Health, because obviously the Minister of Health has not had the opportunity to talk directly to lodge operators in northern Manitoba about what is going on currently. As I said, I have a concern about the elimination of classification that has taken place on behalf of this government.

I believe that that is going to threaten the integrity of Manitoba's classification system, and threatening that integrity is going to threaten the reputation that Manitoba has with many, many tou rists, par ti cul arly the majo r mar ket for destination, which is from the United States. They demand proper services and standards. If they go to a lodge that is a three-star lodge, they want it to be a three-star lodge. If it is four-star lodge, they want it to be a four-star lodge.

They are willing to pay good money to come to northern Manitoba and are willing to add significantly to the Manitoba economy by doing so if they get the kinds of standards they are used to, that they are ex pecti ng and tha t ar e adver ti sed. This government has made a serious error in this regard. I also want to talk about outfitters' concerns in another area, and that is in the area of promotion.

I believe that if one was to talk to many of the outfitters, and I have taken the opportunity to talk to a number of outfitters, one of the major concerns about the tourism strategy of the government, and it has been a concern that has been around for a number of years--1 am not trying to single out this current minister-but is in terms of promotion. (Mr.

Jack Reimer, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) Many lodge operators are finding they are expending a significant amount of money out of their own pockets, tens of thousands of dollars having to independently promote northern Manitoba as a destination there in the United States. Let us not forget that we have not traditionally been as major a market in terms of that kind of tourism in comparison, for example, to Northern Ontario or to the Northwest Territories.

Those who have come to northern Manitoba often are repeat tourists. * (1 540) I have talked to many lodge operators who have indicated they often find there are repeated visits from individuals on a yearly basis. I think that shows that we do have strength in terms of mar ket potential, but there is not the adequate type of promotion.

When you are out there in a cutthroat market, and indeed lodge operators are saying the prices are being slashed because of the impact of the recession- there is some kind of price war going on between lodges currently--but when you are out there competing with well-known destinations such as Northern Ontario, you need that type of promotion, Mr. Acting Speaker, and that is one of the significant concerns of lodge operators, the fact that we are often left out.

I talked to a lodge operator only on Friday who indicated that he was at a trade fair and had some members of his family at a trade fair where there was an empty desk set up for Manitoba and a few brochures put out. A few of the lodge operators were able to get down to that area and, indeed, I

February 27, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 773 know the memb er for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Connery) will be conc erned about that. I know he has expressed similar concerns in the past. I would hope that he would take the time to talk to members of his own governm ent to advise them of the concerns of lodge operators. That is not the only concern they have. I talked to a lodge operator just yesterday as a matter of fact who found the fees they are being charged are increasing dramati cally.

They went from a $250 fee last year to the point where they are going to be charged in excess of $830 and a charge per bed space. This is going to lead to a threefold , a fourfold-it may increase by as much as 500 percent in one year. They, a new lodge operation, are just flabbergasted- they found this out last Friday. They were flabber gasted to find that this government is now with a new operat ion. They put their own money into it. They have been unable to get any support from government. In fact, I do not even believe they really bothered even trying to get it from the govern men t.

They have rece ived no real assistance in terms of the banks, but now the government is increasing the amount that it wants to take off this lodge operati on, a new lodge operati on. Whether it threatens the economic viability, Mr. Acti ng Speaker, certainly does not help. Here in the middle of a recession when you have people-and this couple has lived in northern Manitoba for 30 years and they have put their livelihood on the line, their life savings, to start this lodge, and the government has decided that now they are one of the targets to increase revenues. I note that is happening across the provi nce.

The Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), with his newly shrunken department, now is out there trying to raise revenue wher ever he can. We noticed in terms of another bill, in terms of permanent cottage resid ents, that money is going to be raised from them that will go into g eneral revenues, not into the local comm unities, not into local school districts, not into local municipalities, but they are out there raising money for whomever they can. In fact, I am wondering if this bill might not more appropriately put this responsibility in the Minister of Finance's (Mr.

Manness) department, because by the looks of it, at the rate we are going, the Minister of Natural Resources is going to become more of a revenue raiser in terms of a minister than a service provider. We have seen major, major cuts in terms of the progr amming in that department that affects conservation offi cers, that affects our provincial parks, and that is why I have a concern here again.

We look to the feedback from lodge operators themselves as to the logic of this move, a move that .·· is going to, what -to move lodge and outfitters' responsi bil ity to the Depar tm ent of Natural Resources, a department that has been slashed continuously by this government and, in fact, one that we are concerned again may be the target of further cuts in the upcoming budget.

How will the very real conce rns of lodge operators and outfitt ers in terms of the impact they could have, in terms of the tourism market, their resource concerns, et cetera, be represented in a department that has little enough resour ces to begin with, has had those resources slashed, is ha ving difficulty maintaining basic services in terms of those areas I just mentioned a few minutes ago? How are their responsibilities in terms of this particular new bill going to be lived up to with a department that is a mere shadow of itself, Mr. Acting Speaker? Those are a number of con cerns I have identified.

I want to indicate that our caucus is going to be taking the time to talk to the people directly affected, those who operate lodges, talking to outfitters and other northern Manitobans in particular, because that is where a vast majority of lodges are locat ed, to find out what they bel ieve is the proper approach to follow. I know as I have said from conversations as recent as yesterday they have serious concerns about the actions of this government. Perhaps, Mr.

Acting Speaker, it is out of ignorance that this government is doing this, but they ought to realize that there is significant tourism potential from our lodges. In fact, one of the most significant areas of pote ntial is in terms of northern tourism. This is one of the strongest markets that we have. If you were to take Churchill with its reputation which attracts visitors from all over the world, and I have had the opportu nity of tr avelling on the bayline as I do to visit parts of my constitu ency, to sit and talk to people who have come as far away as Miami, Florida.

They have come to Minneapolis to catch the trai n to go all the way up to Churchill. They cannot believe when they hear these discussions that the bayline and the Port of Chur chill's future is threate ned. I have run across people in Chur chill from all over the world , the Japanese, the Germans, every

part

774 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA February 27, 19 92 of the world that has that reputat ion. Same thing with our lodges. I have had the opportunity to sit with many Americ an tourists, tra velling as I do home on weekends during the tourism season and, indeed, it is an interesting experience sitting and having the opportunity of talking to people again. I have talked to people who have come again from as far away as California and Florida. They have flown to Chicago. They have connec ted with flights from Chicago and then eventually to Winnipeg.

They then fly to Thorn pson and then take aircraft into the various different lodges. You know, they are very impressed by what they see. They are super impressed by the environment that we have, the unspoiled wilderness. It puts us to shame sometimes, Mr. Acting Speaker, because I wonder how many people in Winnipeg have ever take n the time or have ever had the opportunity to travel north. When I say north, I do not just mean Gimli or Winnipeg Beach. No offence to Gimli or Winnipeg Beach or Selkirk which has called itself the gateway to the North. I am talking about north of 53.

I am talking about coming up to Grand Rapids perhaps or further, going to Rin Ron, Cranberry Porta ge, to The Pas, many of the com munities which are rea dily acces sible by roads because it is an interesting experience. In fact, I would recommend for those who want to start, they could start with the com munity of Snow Lake , because I have had the interesting experience, Mr. Acting Speak er, the last two years my car has broken down both years, two different cars, in the summer around Reid Lake on both occas ions. I had to get towed back into Snow Lake and I ended up stayi ng at the Snow Lake Lodge.

You know what, it was probably the best thing that could have happened, because I did miss out on the meetings both years. One actu ally was the send-off for Harry Harapiak. That one, I wish I had been at. They have ac tually got to the point now where, if it is the summer and I am trav elling anywhere, people expect that I am going to end up in Snow Lake through some sort of breakdown. The great thing was I had the opportunity to go to the lodge there which is readily accessible by road . I had the opportu nity to go fishing which is something that I always want to do and never find the time.

I ran across a lot of American tourists who will drive up from Iowa right from the mid- West all the way up to Snow Lake, because it has a reputation with many people. They will stay for a week. You know what I found interes ting, again too, and this shows the kind of promotional work we have to do. When I was at the lodge, I was asking the question, what kind of money is left in the local economy?

One of the concerns that is ofte n expressed is that the Amer ican fishermen will come up, they will buy gas, they will fill their gas tanks up so they can drive all the way up to northern Manitoba and back without having to fill up, and actu ally looking at the prices of gas in northern Manitoba, I can understand why. They buy food, they stock up on food. There is a concern being expressed that the money does not stay in the local economy. Do you know what? I talked to the operators of the lodge, and I know the member for Flin Ron (Mr. Stori

e) knows it well, being in his constitu ency, and I know he has talked to them on many occas ions. They have said that once people realize what is available in northern Manitoba atti tudes change. In fact, he mentioned he had some American visitors who came up and left upwards of $500 worth of canned goods that they brought up, because they thought there was going to be nothing in Snow Lake, no rest aurants, no grocery store and what not. When they went up to Snow Lake, which is a small commu nity, what they did was they said, well, why bother with these canned goods.

So they went and they donated $500 worth of canned goods to the lodge operator. I st ill do not know if he has figured out what to do with them yet. It shows you the kind of attitudes you run into, and that is what we have to work on. [interjection) Indeed, they are nice people.

I have really enjoyed my experience in dealing with th em. • (1 550) What I am saying is, if you understand, if you take the time to listen to what people expect and also some of the impressions people have of northern Manitoba, whether they are correct or not, you also Jearn the next response which is how to develop a proper and adequ ate marketing program that cannot only sell the advantages of northern Manitoba as a destination resort for lodges but can also point out to people that they do not have to gas up and buy $1 ,000 worth of cans, that we have some excellent restau rants .

In fact, the food in many lodges is very well liked. I have heard some very good commen ts by Amer ican fishermen who have come up.

February 27, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA ns It is also, I think, important to recognize what people expect. One of the key things in the hospitality industry-! know it is something that has been pointed to, and one thing I think the Americans, certainly in the northern stat es, are quite good at, and I am not a cross-border shopper at the moment. I have not been for several years. I remember from prev ious visits through the United States, one thing that everybody remarked on was the degree to which they developed the hospitality industry to the point where people are very hospita ble.

It is partly by nature, but I think it is also something that goes with training and development. That is something people are looking at in northern Manitoba, I might add. Mystery Cou ntry International, which is an organization that represents Thompson and surroun

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-3-18
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 3rd hansardpdf 18.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	86b2dde499d1643d67171c84b2185580904ad20d

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