Manitoba Hansard — 12 April 1976 (Sitting 72, 30th Legislature, 3rd Session)

30-3-72

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XXIII No. 72 2:30p.m., Monday, April12, 1976. Third Session, 30th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans- Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

Electoral Division Name Political Address Postal Affiliation Code ARTHUR J. Douglas Watt P.C. Reston, Man. ROM 1XO ASSINIBOIA Steve Patrick Lib. 10 Red Robin Place, Wpg. R3J 3L8 BIRTLE·RUSSELL Harry E. Graham P.C. Binscarth, Man. ROJ OGO BRANDON EAST Hon. Leonard S. Evans NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 BRAN DON WEST Edward McGill P.C. 2228 Princess Ave., Brandon R7B OH9 BURROWS Hon.

Ben Hanuschak NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 CHAR LESWOOD Arthur Moug P.C. 29 Willow Ridge Rd., Winnipeg R3R 1L5 CHURCHILL Les Osland NDP 66 Radisson Blvd., Churchill ROB OEO CRESCENTWOOD Warren Steen P.C. 410 Borebank St., Winnipeg R3N 1E7 DAUPHIN Hon. Peter Burtniak NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 ELMWOOD Hon. Russell J. Doern NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 EM ER SON Steve Derewianchuk NDP Vita, Manitoba ROA 2KO FLIN FLON Thomas Barrow NDP Cranberry Portage, Man.

ROB OHO FORT GARRY L.R. (Bud) Sherman P.C. 86 Niagara St., Winnipeg R3N OT9 FORT ROUGE Lloyd Axworthy Lib. 140 Roslyn Road, Winnipeg R3L OG8 GIMLI John C. Gottfried NDP 44- 3rd Ave., Gimli, Man. ROC 1BO GLADSTONE James R. Ferguson P.C. Gladstone, Man. ROJ OTO INKSTER Hon. Sidney Green, O.C. NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 KILDONAN Hon. Peter Fox NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 LAC DU BONNET Hon. Sam Uskiw NDP Legislative BId g., Winnipeg R3C OV8 LAKESIDE Harry J. Enns P.C. Woodlands, Man. ROC 3HO LA VERENDRYE Bob Banman P.C. Steinbach, Man.

ROA 2AO LOGAN William Jenkins NDP 1294 Er in St., Winnipeg R3E 2S6 MINNEDOSA David Blake P.C. Minnedosa, Man. ROJ 1EO MORRIS Warner H. Jorgenson P.C. Morris, Man. ROG 1KO OSBORNE Hon. I an Turnbull NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 PEMBINA George Henderson P.C. Manitou, Man. ROG 1GO POINT DOUGLAS Donald Malinowski NDP 23 Coralberry Ave., Winnipeg R2V 2P2 PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE Gordon E. Johnston Lib. Box 112, Portage la Prairie, Manitoba R1N 3B2 RADISSON Harry Shafransky NDP 4 Maplehurst Rd., Winnipeg R2J 1W8 RHINELAND Arnold Brown P.C. Winkler, Man. ROG 2XO RI EL Donald W.

Craik P.C. 3 River Lane, Winnipeg R2M 3Y8 RIVER HEIGHTS Sidney Spivak, O.C. P.C. 2518-160 Hargrave St., Wpg. R3C 3H3 ROBLIN J. Wally McKenzie P.C. lnglis, Man. ROJ OXO ROCK LAKE Henry J. Einarson P.C. Glenboro, Man. ROK OXO ROSSMERE Hon. Ed. Schreyer NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 RUPERTSLAND Hon. Harvey Bostrom NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 ST. BON IFACE Hon. L.L. Desjardins NDP 200- 185 Carlton St., Wpg. R3C 1P3 ST. GEORGE Hon. Bill Uruski NDP 1Oth fir., 330 Portage Ave., Wpg. R3C OC4 ST. JAMES George Minaker P.C. 318 Ronald St., Winnipeg R3J 3J8 ST. JOHNS Saul Cherniack, O.C. NDP 333 St.

Johns Ave., Winnipeg R2W 1H2 ST. MATTHEWS Wally Johannson NDP 418 Home St., Winnipeg R3G 1X4 ST. VITAL D.J. Walding NDP 26 Hemlock Place, Winnipeg R2H 1L7 STE. ROSE A.R. (Pete) Adam NDP Ste. Rose du Lac, Man. ROL 1SO SELKIRK Hon. Howard Pawley NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 SEVEN OAKS Hon. Saul A. Miller NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 SOUR IS KILLA RNEY Earl McKellar P.C. Nesbitt, Man. ROK 1PO SPRINGFIELD Hon. Rene E. Toupin NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 STURGEON CREEK J. Frank Johnston P.C. 310 Overdale St., Winnipeg R3J 2G3 SWAN RIVER James H. Bilton P.C. Swan River, Man.

ROL 1ZO THE PAS Hon. Ron McBryde NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 THOMPSON Ken Dillen NDP 24- 1 Public Rd., Thompson R8N OM3 TRANSCONA Hon. Russell Paulley NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 VIR DEN Morris McGregor P.C. Kenton, Man. ROM OZO WELLINGTON Philip M. Petursson NDP 681 Banning St., Winnipeg R3G 2G3 WINNIPEG CENTRE Hon. J.R. (Bud) Boyce NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 WOLSELEY R.G. (Bob) Wilson P.C. 2 Middlegate, Winnipeg R3C 2C4

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 p.m., Monday, April 12, 1976 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. 2247 MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Present ing Reports by Standing and Special Committees, Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports. The Honourable Minister of Mines. REPORT BY SPECIAL COMMITTEE HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q.C. (Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management) (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I have an up-to-date flood run-off report which I'd like to table. MR. SPEAKER: Any other Tabling of Reports or Ministerial Statements ?

Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN, on behalf of the Minister of Labour, introduced Bill No. 58,

an Act to amend The Civil Service Superannuation Act (2): (Recommended by His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor) • MR. GREEN, on behalf of the Minister of Labour, introduced Bill No. 57,

an Act to amend The Labour Relations Act. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin), introduced Bill No. 55, and Act to amend

an Act to repeal

an Act to Validate and Conf irm a Certain Agreement between The Town of Dauphin and The Rural Municipality of Dauphin. MR. SPEAKER: Questions; The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Leader of the Official Opposition) (Riel): Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the First Minister. I would ask him whether the government has given consideration, in view of the diff iculties being experienced from the flood waters in southwest Manitoba, whether consideration has been given to declaring those communities so aff ected as a disaster area. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister.

HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, about a week to ten days ago a proclamation was signed declaring a limited emergency situation and depending on briefing, which I would expect to be within the next 24 hours, we ,will have to decide what further action to take. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the First Minister if his people have been in touch with the authorities in the United States where Governor Link has requested the Congress of the U .s. to declare those portions of the Souris River so affected as a disaster area to look for Federal support for their relief, and whether he cannot consider the same sort of initiative in Manitoba considering the devastation is much more wide spread. MR. SHCREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, that is precisely what will depend on the briefing.

I might advise my honourable friend that we do have in Canada - perhaps it is diff erent and that would explain the diff erence in approach - we do have a Standing Federal-Provincial Disaster Agreement, the formula for which is known and goes into effect as soon as damages exceed a million dollars on any occasion. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the First Minister whether he might also look into what appears to be some diff iculty in co-ordination between the diff erent govern ment responsibilities and in particular those problems caused by some of the highways in southwest Manitoba acting as dams and causing flooding and without suff icient authority to see that the highways are breached where necessary.

2248 April 12, 1976 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I don't know if there is anything different in that kind of circumstance. When there is a problem, or an incipient problem with respect to flood waters, the Emergency Measures Organization, if it is called into operation in a given area or district, then does become the co-ordinator of all physical actions that might be needed to combat the flood.

I would think that the sequence of events would be that if it is the considered opinion of those in local responsibility that there is justification for breaching a road, that the request would go via EMO to the District Engineer for the Department who in turn would be expected to exercise judgment as to whether or not that should be done and if not certain, to contact departmental senior officials in Winnipeg. I assume that that is standing practice. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, then that being the case, which we're aware of, is the government satisfied that EMO is suff iciently staffed to see that that job is being done under the present conditions in southwest Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. HON. SAUL A. MILLER (Minister of Urban Affairs) (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, yes. In my opinion EMO is adequately staff ed. EMO is a co-ordinating body which has at its beck and call all the apparatus of government and all the personnel that they need from every other department.

They called on it this year well in advance and probably this year was a model exercise on how things should b€ done when one is prepared. I would venture to say that because of their preparedness, many of the problems that occurred in the past were overcome well in advance this year. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): I address a question to the First Minister, a question relative to the subject that the Member for Riel has brought up.

I ask the First Minister: is the government prepared to assume the responsibility for the damage occurring in southwest Manitoba at the moment as a direct result of inadequate water release through No. 83 Highway. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, that is highly judgmental. The course of action that will be taken will be in accordance with past practice in recent years • MR. WATT: ••• the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources who I see shaking his head at the moment.

I ask the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources if he or any of his authorities from Water Resources have been on the spot over the weekend to see what is occurring in the area that we're referring to relative to No. 83 Highway? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, it has already been explained to the honourable member that in situations of this kind, the Emergency Measures Organization becomes a co-ordinating force. I would assume that there are Water Resource people involved and that there are other people involved.

I can advise the honourable member that I have not been contacted, as has been alleged over some local media, with regard to the breach in this particular highway. Nor would I agree, Mr. Speaker, that whether or not you blast the highway depends on whether a local area says that is should be blasted or not. MR. WATT: Then to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. I ask the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources now if he refused to go on a public network this morning and discuss this matter with the • • • MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The question is not relevant to this procedure at this time.

The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, on a matter of privilege. I was not asked to go on a public program this morning to discuss this matter nor did I refuse to go on a public program to discuss this matter. I very rarely refuse to get public media attention, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The Honourable Member for Arthur have a question or a debate. Question please. MR. WATT: I have not a debate, Mr. Speaker. On a point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: Very well let's hear it.

April 12, 1976 2249 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. WATT: I may ask the Minister, is it correct then that he was quoted this morning over a broadcasting system that he would not speak over that system when a discussion was going on with a representative of southwest Manitoba because in effect, I think the quotation was, that those people would not refuse to speak with him so they could go to hell. MR. SPEAKER: That is not a matter of privilege. The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: That is absolutely false. And if that was said by a reporter over the media, then he is making an absolutely false statement.

Specifically he told me, and he used language which I commonly use but which I'm supposed to not use in this House, saying that these people say that you could go expletive deleted because they do not vote for us in southern Manitoba. I told them that the people who made that allegation, that we have said this because they do not vote for us, can go expletive deleted. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge): Mr.

Speaker I have a question for the Minister of Consumer Affairs • I wonder if the Minister can inform the House whether he has as yet initiated steps to set up the administration of the Rent Review Board to enact the Rent Stabilization Bill in terms of securing staff, undertaking any training of that staff and preparation for when the bill will be proclaimed and passed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services. HON. IAN TURNBULL (Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services) (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, the special board to appoint that board, the embryonic board, was passed some months ago and following the passage of that Special Warrant, staff were hired on contract; staff are being hired on contract and they are working on regula tions; they are working on the administrative process and generally getting the ship in order for the flood that is about to come. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Could the Minister inform the House how many people this involves and again whether they are being given any special training in the particular skills that they will need to administer that Act ? MR.

TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, we are taking steps of course to train staff. There are economists and accountants that are going to be involved in the administration of this board and I do believe that they are doing everything they can to be ready for the applications that will be received relative to rents. MR. AXWORTHY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister tell us whether he intends to have offices of the Rent Review Board in diff erent regions of the province or will it be centred only in Winnipeg and to what degree will there be some distribution of access for people throughout the province. MR.

TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, the best answer to that question of course is to say that the administrative decentralization of the Board will be dependent on t�e work load. Right now I am contemplating appointing board members from areas outside of the City of Winnipeg to give the administration of the Board a regional input. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, just a supplementary. Can the Minister in form us, have actual office locations been leased or rented at this stage and could he inform us where they might be ? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, that kind of information I certainly can give to the member.

There has been office space rented in the City of Winnipeg. I am not - being a Scotsman - the kind of person who would rent space before the staff is there to fill it and I'm not the kind of person who would rent the space before the need is evident. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the First Minister on the previous topic of the flood problem in southwest Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the First Minister that in spite of the deleted expletives or otherwise whether this problem is not serious enough that at least one of his Cabinet Ministers could not attend at site and determine whether or not something more authoratatively cannot be done in that area in view of the very significant problem that exceeds anything they've had in history before and in comparison to the fact that Governor Link, personally, is looking after his people on the U .s. side of the border.

2250 April 12, 1976 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, you know one is always at a loss to know whether it would be at all helpful in tangible, concrete terms to go and have a personal on-site look. That is necessary of course in order to have some judgmental appreciation as to the quantum of damage. But insofar as playing a useful role, I mean in the true sense of the word a useful role, at a time when flood fighting is under way is a very much debatable or open question. I have no objection to having a look.

I've done so in previous springs when there has been widespread flooding threatening. But I could never pretend, Sir, that my having done so in any way ''looked after" the people that were afflicted. It is merely a way of getting a firsthand judgmental appreciation as to what has to be done reasonably to help defray the cost of clean-up and restoration. In that regard there's no doubt but that where there is a significant amount of damage caused by flooding, we have a program that goes into effect when those factors of the formula are present.

It has nothing to do with part of the province, regions of the province or historical political affiliation. I don't know where that kind of nonsense originates, but if one merely looks back as little as a year and two years, Mr. Speaker, one can see that there has been a distribution of substantial sums of money, in the millions, into communities that simply were afflicted by flood damage. On the upper Red, the Boyne River, in the general area of Altona and Gretna and in the Inter lake and all over. So that kind of nonsense should be put to rest. MR. CRA1K: Mr.

Speaker, I ask the First Minister again in another way whether he would not personally look into whether or not a more authoritative responsibility is not required in this total area, the same sort of initiative he showed last year when the Town of Dauphin lost its water supply and in other such situations which were minor in com parison to what's happening in southwest Manitoba. I'm asking him whether his personal attention or personal attention of his Cabinet could not form a more authoritative action in that part of the country. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, as far as I'm concerned senior officials of the Crown have a plenitude of authority to deal with emergency problems as they occur. If there is any doubt in their minds they certainly know the channels of communication to contact deputy ministerial levels of authority and ministerial and I assume that common sense prevails in those circumstances • MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable the First Minister.

I would like to ask him whether any new production alternatives have presented themselves yet or appear likely to present themselves for the production facilities at the Saunders Aircraft Corporation plant in Gimli. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I'll have to take that as notice. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a supplementary of the First Minister and perhaps he would take it as notice too.

I'd like to ask the honourable gentleman what has happened in effect to the labour force, particularly the skilled labour force, that was employed at the Gimli plant and whether alternative employment has been found for that force. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, some part of that labour force when it was at peak was on a contract basis. Those who were in the more regular employ of the com pany did have ample months' notice and I assume made other arrangements either at Bristol, Standard Aero Engine and other similar employers in the Greater Winnipeg area or elsewhere • MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Agriculture. Does the Minister intend to set up a plan using the newly formulated fungicide to treat elm trees in Manitoba afflicted with Dutch Elm disease ?

I April 12, 1976 2251 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): Well, again , Mr. Speaker, the program for control of Dutch Elm disease is going to be carried out by the Department of Tourism under the authority of the - I forget the name of the Act, The Plant Pest, Diseases Act, I believe that's what it's called - of my department. But they have complete charge of the program. MR. PATRICK: A supplementary.

Can the Minister indicate to the House, has he been in touch with the Federal Department and the scientists in that department? Has the Minister enough fungicide supply in stock to start treating the Dutch Elm disease? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, there has been nothing new brought to my attention in the last week or two in that regard. My staff has not consulted with me whatever. MR. PATRICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Has the government any plans of reforestration to replace the elm trees that are destroyed or killed ? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, in that connection I think it would be desirable for any local government to introduce programs that would offset the loss of elm trees over a period of years and likewise where the province if involved through its park system I'm sure the Parks Branch is going to look in that direction as well. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK Q.C. (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.

On Friday the Prime Minister tabled the letters sent to the First Minister of this province and others dealing with the repatriation of the Constitution and the suggested amending procedure proposal. I have a copy of it here in front of me. It deals with two items • Repatriation and the amending procedure.

I wonder if he can indicate whether his government has at least arrived at a decision with respect to the question of patriation and the ability of the Federal Govern ment to ask the House of Commons in London to allow the repatriation of the Constitution without in any way dealing with the other issue of the amending procedure. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, if I understood the question, the honourable gentleman is asking me if the government of the province has come to any conclusion as to the - as to what?

As to power, authority or as to the desirability of the Government of Canada proceeding to Westminister with a petition for patriation. It's two quite separate things • MR. SPIVAK: Well I think we should then deal with the question of the power of the Federal Government to ask for repatriation of the Constitution without dealing with the amending procedure. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I am perhaps no more of a constitutional expert than my honourable friend. It is one thing to say that the power exists with the Govern ment of Canada to do so.

It's another thing to say however, whether it is right that they should presume to do so unilaterally. I think that would be a fair

summary of our rather tentative analysis of that matter. We do propose to meet on this some time well before the meeting that will be called federally-provincially on the patriation question. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder then if the First Minister has communicated this informa tion to the Federal Government, as to Manitoba's position on that matter just on the ability of the Federal Government to ask for repatriation of the Constitution without agreement of the provinces. Has that been communicated? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, we do propose to reply, I would think next week.

Our reply however, it would be premature to indicate what that might be just now. I would prefer that we meet on the matter here and that we convey this to the Prime Minister and then have a statement on it. MR. SPIVAK: Yes. I wonder if the First Minister has considered the possibility of calling the Prairie Economic Council into a separate meeting to discuss a Western Canadian point of view with respect to the amending procedure. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, there will be if there is a consensus of view that there is something very dire involved.

The Prairie Economic Council - I should call it the Western Premiers' Conference now - will have an opportunity to discuss it because this group will be convened at the end of this month, well before any definitive meetings of a federal-provincial nature are held.

2252 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. April 1 2, 1976 MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Honourable Minister of Tourism, Recreation, and Cultural Affairs. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Honourable Minister could advise the House of any recent steps or progress that has been made regarding Heritage Canada and Parks Canada preserving this grand old hotel over here, the Empire. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. HON. RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs) (Springfield): Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I had a similar question posed of me, I believe two weeks ago in the House, and I indicated the steps that had been agreed upon by Parks Canada, by the Historical Sites Advisory Board and Great West Life. MR. McK.ENZIE: I wonder, Mr. Speaker, is the Minister prepared to either beforehand or at the next meeting of the National Historic Sites and Monuments Board present a position paper as to where the government stands, the people of Manitoba stand regarding the preservation of that building. MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Speaker, again I indicated in my previous answer that we will not be in a position to indicate a position until the joint studies are completed. We have given them 90 days to complete their studies. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education.

In view of the fact that the universities will be closing term in about two or three weeks, can the Minister indicate whether he has had yet a chance to assess whether there will be suff icient jobs available for the some 11,000 students presently registered for employment in the province ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Colleges and Universities Affairs) (Burrows): Mr. Chairman, the honourable member's question is purely speculative.

We have no way of knowing at this point in time and neither does he, whether there will in fact be 11,000 students registered for employment. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, is the Minister aware that the Director for Manpower for the Province of Manitoba has indicated that there are 11,000 students registered and that many of them will have diff iculty finding jobs? MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'm well aware of that. But I repeat again that it's purely speculation as to whether or not there will be 11,000 students without jobs come the end of this university year. MR. AXWORTHY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Considering the diff iculty that students are already experiencing receiving employment, ten days before the univer sity year comes to an end, can the Minister indicate whether the government is planning any special incentives or programs to take care of serious problems of unemployment when it occurs ? MR. HANUSCHAK: I suppose, Mr. Speaker, there are some students who are experiencing difficulty. I'm also aware of many who are not experiencing any diff iculty finding employment this summer. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. WATT: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Highways.

I wonder if the Minister could indicate to the House that as a result of our discussions last Friday in respect of No. 83 Highway and the water problem there, could he indicate if he has had a report from his engineers on the situation as it exists now. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Highways) (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, the only thing I can tell the honourable member is that the only contact we've had from that area, to my knowledge, was the Reeve of the Municipality. MR.

WATT: Could the Minister indicate what report he has received from the Reeve of that Municipality ? MR. BURTNIAK: The report, as I say, was not given to me. I did not speak to the Reeve. There was a telephone conversation between the Reeve and my Deputy

April 12, 1976 2253 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. BURTNIAK cont'd) ••••• Minister and he did give the Deputy Minister some information as to the kind of damage or a resume of the flooding situation in the area. He thought that perhaps it was a fact that there was some structural work done in the south near the States, some few miles from the border, by the State of North Dakota, I believe it is, that perhaps caused the greater flow and more quicker flow of water into Manitoba. But that's the only information I can give the honourable member. MR. WATT: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister would undertake to have a report from his engineers, if he would have his engineers inspect the situation as it is now and bring a report back to the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, speaking of sites and monuments as my colleague from Roblin was earlier, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Environmental Management --(Interjection)--It's a monumental question - and ask him whether he has any knowledge of the disappearance of two commemorative plaques that were formerly in place and are now missing from the Inlet Structure of the Red River Floodway. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I wasn't personally at that site either, so I couldn't ••• MR. SHERMAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the Minister would undertake to investigate the situation and report as to whether the plaques will be replaced on that structure • MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I would assume that the honourable member's ques tion is serious and I'll take the question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for Transportation.

I wonder if he can confirm what the Federal Minister of Transport appears to be saying in his recent statements in the Federal House, that the ongoing negotiations between the Province of Manitoba and the Federal Government in respect to prairie air service for Western Manitoba and Saskatchewan, have now been finally terminated. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I believe it is well known how Manitoba got shafted by Mr. Otto Lang. --(Interjection)--That's the very word for it. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Speaker, to the same Minister. Then has the Minister made any new initiatives ? Has he undertaken any further advances to the Federal Government in respect to an air service in which the province would participate. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, the last letter that went from me to Mr. Lang was some weeks ago and there's been no response to that whatsoever. I think the initiative is left with the Federal Government.

It was a federal commitment, a federal promise solemnly made by the First Minister of Canada and I believe it is a commitment that we all wish to take seriously and we're waiting very patiently and perhaps less patiently as time goes on, for the Federal Government to honour its commitment to the people of this province ••• MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, I take from the Minister's reply that the negotia tions have not been finally and completely terminated as was indicated to the Federal House by the Minister. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, the present Minister, unlike the former Minister of Transport, I might add is a very difficult person to negotiate with. We have done every thing in our power to assist the Federal Government on fulfilling its commitments and I don't know what else there is to really discuss or to pursue. We simply now wish the Federal Government to carry on and hopefully honour those commitments that were made to us. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. THOMAS BARROW (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the

2254 April 12, 1976 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. BARROW cont'd) ••••• Minister of Education. Due to the anxiety of Cranberry Portage regarding the future of the Frontier Collegiate, could the Minister give any indication of what's going to happen in the near future, say next year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, as the Honourable Member for Flin Flon and members of the House no doubt lmow, at one time Frontier Collegiate, was essentially the only source of a high school education in Frontier School Division.

Since then changes have occurred by taking the high school education program back into the local community and hence the need that may have existed for Frontier Collegiate at one time, at a certain level, probably is no doubt decreasing. However there's no doubt in my mind that come next year the Frontier Collegiate will stiil continue operating.

At exactly what level I do not lmow but be it at a reduced .level I want to assure the honourable member that every effort possible is being made not to under utilize the facility and if it should not be used for educational purposes then we'll make every effort possible to find other uses for it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable Minister of Agriculture.

I wonder if the Minister can indicate to the House, has the Minister or his staff any projections of farm cash receipts for Manitoba for this year and how serious are the projections decreased in the receipts. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, of late that has not been the subject of our discus sions. We are currently pre-occupied with many other things and in particular dairy policy which is something that happens to emanate from the Government of Canada, but through which we will be very much aff ected.

I am not able to give my honourable friend a current prospectus on what is going to take place in terms of production and revenues this year, but if he wants, I will get that information for him . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister responsible for Environmental Protection.

Can the Minister indicate whether he or his department have been appraised of the findings of the House of Commons Fisheries Report which indicates that 27 Manitoba lakes have a mercury count that is higher than the permissible level and if his department is examining whether those counts are having any impact upon humans or animal life in those areas • MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines, MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I'm not sure whether what the honourable niember is referring to is some recent findings or findings that were made public in 1970, at the time that Lake Winn ipeg was closed and at which time there were other lakes in Manitoba which showed such findings even though there were no industrial inlets to the lakes, some of which appeared to be perhaps quantities of mercury which are there by nature. If it is the • • • findings then I was personally aware of them at the time and these were dealt with at the time. If it is recent findings, then I personally have not been made aware of them.

It is perhaps possible that the Minister of Renewable Resources has been made aware of them since he would be involved with the fisheries • I'm willing to look into it for my honourable friend. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I just have a supplementary as to whether the Minister is prepared to undertake a securement of that report from the Fisheries Com mittee of the House of Commons, a recent report, and apply the information to this House when he receives it. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I will try to track down the report. It may be that it's in the Department of the Minister of Renewable Resources. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Health. It's in regards to the statement by the Executive Director of the Manitoba Health Organization that Manitoba may be facing a cut, up to 1, 800 acute care beds, which will principally hit rural Manitoba. Can the Minister indicate whether there has been any indication directly from the Federal Government that this might be the case.

April 12, 1976 2255 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (Minister of Health and Social Development) (St. Boniface): Nothing official yet, Mr. Speaker. I think they're just speculating but there is no doubt that some of the acute beds will be closed in the rural areas. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable House Leader. COMMITTEE ANNOUNCEMENT MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to

schedule a meeting of Law Amendments Committee on Thursday at 10:00 o'clock in the morning to consider the Rent Stabilization Bill. I would also like to indicate that it's my understanding - and I perhaps didn't make it clear last week � that we would be meetirig Wednesday night and not meeting on Thursday night so that this week Wednesday would be a full day's activities. Mr. Speaker, would you now proceed to call the second readings in the order in which they appear in the Order Paper. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR.

CRAIK: I wonder if I can direct a question to the Minister with regards to his Statement before you move. Will the amendments to the Rent Stabilization Act be distributed and if so, when? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, that was the indication that I made - I'm sorry I didn't refer to it - that the meeting would be held after the amendments were distributed. I understand that the Minister is ready to distribute those amendments this afternoon. Some amendments this afternoon.

The honourable member is aware that amendments can be introduced at any time but the ones that he has in mind will be distributed this afternoon. MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I believe the honourable members are aware that I distributed a couple of documents, sheets of paper, on each member's desk in respect to the question period. We went 38 minutes this afternoon and I was very lenient because I didn't expect anyone had a chance to read them. But tomorrow it's going to be a diff erent day.

I hope that the members will do their homework and that also applies in respect to some of the hints in respect to decorum and discipline. Thank you very much. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BILLS - SECOND READING MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on Bill No. 23 proposed by the Honourable Minis ter of Agriculture. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I beg the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand. (Agreed) MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 30 proposed by the Honourable Minister of Mines. The Honourable Member for st. James. (Stand) Bill No. 39 proposed by the Honourable Attorney-General.

The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russell): Mr. Speaker, Could I have the indulgence of the House to have 39 and 40 stand? (Agreed) MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 42 proposed by the Honourable Minister of Health. The Honourable Member for Rhine land. MR. ARNOLD BROWN (Rhineland): Stand, Mr. Speaker? (Agreed) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour)(Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Health and Social Development, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair.

2256 April 12, 1976 SUPPLY - HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN: . • . Page 27 of the Estimate Book. Child and Family Services:

(1) Salaries $213, 300 -- pass. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, we were on the discussion of group homes I believe. I wonder if the Minister could give us any indication as to how many group homes there are in the province and whether he can tell us how many children are situated in these group homes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 58 (c)(2)--pass - the Honourable Member for Rhine land . MR. BROWN: Well I wonder, Mr. Chairman, whether we could have an answer on that first question that I asked on (c)(l). MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, I'll have to take a note on this and try to give this later on. I also wish to say that I'm not goi.Jtg to get up and down at every question. I think that this just encourages a debate on every single little thing so I'll try to let a number of members ask their questions and then I'll try to answer them after. But on this one, seeing that I'm on my feet, we'll take a note of this and I'll try to give you the information. You're talking about the homes, not for mental retardation or anything but strictly for children, foster children. I'll try to give you that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 58 (c)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Well, Mr. Chairman, again I have a question for the Minister which he may have answered previously but I wasn't in the House and if he has I'd be prepared to look in Hansard. The issue has been raised about the fact that many children who need a particular kind of psychiatric care or close care are sent out of the province to places like Florida, Arizona, at a cost sometimes of $18, 000 or $20, 000 a year.

I'm wondering if the Minister has indicated whether there is any plans at the present time to supply for that "closed-in care" for children who are ramblers or movers or whatever the particular jargon word is, but who need specialized care of that kind, whether there is any efforts being made at the present moment to establish treat ment facilities like that in Manitoba or jointly with western Canadian provinces so that they would be closer to home and there wouldn't be what appears to be a very high expense for that kind of out-of-province treatment of such children. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 58 (c)(2) - the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I tried to answer that a few nights ago. I think that I referred to $175, 000 that was transferred to have the Manitoba Health Sciences Centre open a holding hospital for some of these children. That would be only the first step. I know that this will not answer all the requests and the department is looking at the situation now and we intend to look very seriously at opening another home maybe on the outskirts of Winnipeg. But this is not an announced policy yet. We're looking at that. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 58 (c)(2)--pass; Resolution 58(c )

(3) Maintenance of Children - the Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR . BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to read a portion of the Annual Report in regards to this particular item. The Annual Report says: "The major event of the past year in child and family services is the publication of a review of child welfare policies, programs and services in Manitoba pointing out the need for increased attention to this complex problem area. The review offers a series of important recommendations which are now under study by the department"-- (Jnterjection)- Page 49 out of the Annual Report. I have the

summary of the Ryant Report here and I would just like to point to a couple of recommendations in that and I would like to see what the Minister proposes to do about some of these situations and maybe he can give us some answers on this. On Page 48 of the

Summary of the Ryant Report it says, "There were often shortcomings in the way children ar� placed in institutions, without preparation of child and family. There are problems in the relationships between the institutions and

April 12, 1976 2257 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. BROWN cont'd) ••••• the placing agency. Most institutions feel the agency must maintain a relationship with the child and be involved in treatment planning. Agency staff tend to consider this is an institutional responsibility and that the agency's work or responsibility is to the remainder of this caseload.

There are differences between institutions and agencies as to who should work with the family." I wonder if the Minister can give us some indication of whether there is any activity being taken to clear up this misunderstanding. --(Interjection)-- Well, I don't think that we have received any indication really from the Minister just exactly what he is planning on doing. There is some confusion in this particular area.

Further down on the page there is a general view that an in-patient psychiatric setting is required for children and adolescents in an acute emotional crisis. understand that at the Health Sciences Centre that you will be going into a treatment facility of children needing psychiatric help. I wonder if the Minister could just elaborate a little bit more and say how many children they are planning on giving treatment to or how large this facility is going to be and also whether anything will be done with adolescents.

It seems to me as if there was quite a need to give adolescents some treatment too and so far we have not heard anything of the Minister's intention in that regard. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 58(c)(3) . The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, we covered that, if you remember, under the - it's been so long I guess, we haven't been going very fast - but we covered that quite extensively last week. First of all, what I took as notice just earlier today, the group homes currently for the child welfare, there's 89.

Now I did mention on the Ryant Report - we talked about that for quite awhile and I mentioned two important areas. As I say we sent the report to all the agencies, to different people; we've been discussing that with them. Their comments have been co-ord inated by the Deputy Minister. We've set out the committee with child caring agencies to start going in that direction. Then, if my honourable friend remembers, I talked about the office of residential care, to do exactly what my honourable friend was talking about. Then previously on this holding hospital, there'll be 20 beds.

This is the one that I referred to when answering the honourable member from Fort Rouge. This is mostly for younger people. But they have the facilities at the Health Sciences Centre for some of the adults and so on so that will all be co-ordinated there also. MR. BROWN: I wonder if the Minister could tell me how many children have been placed for adoption in the last year. I wonder if he could tell us how many were placed for adoption the year before and what the trend is, whether more children are being placed for adoption year after year or whether there's a lesser amount.

I wonder if he could tell us how many have been, altogether, have been placed in foster homes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 58(c)(3) --pass - the Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT G. WILSON (Wolseley): Mr. Chairman, again I had spoken the other day on this item because I felt that $14-1/2 million was a lot of money. However, I did some further research on it and, referring to an

article which said, "Group homes established as money-making projects" and the priorities given in this

article by Mitch Neiman were that to make money was the first priority and to provide a useful service was the second. I do realize that this is a useful service and this is why I had questioned the other day as to whether the program itself was getting away from its concept and was becoming sort of big business. I had requested the Minister to give some thought in the coming year to re-examining the priorities in this area to try to get us back into a situation of spreading these out. I notice that one gentleman, referring to the ad, a Mr.

Grey, had suggested that the government could plan these for other areas and Mr. Grey did not live in the W olseley area and had felt that by planning these for the

2258 April 12, 1976 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. WILSON cont'd) • • • . • suburbs that the programs had a higher ratio of success in numbers. I couldn't help but do some research over the weekend and found that those that were located in the suburban and rural areas had a very high respect for the surrounding community in which they shared. This seems to me to be the problem in my particular areas.

Because of the lack of identity of the particular area as being a very medium class or upper class area there seems to be that lack of respect that there is for the other particular locations in the City of Winnipeg where these children are placed in homes. They grow up in the finer surroundings, they seem to assimilate better into the community. For this reason I wanted to use this opportunity of saying you have my endorsement for the $14-1/2 million but let's look at how it's spent.

It seems to me the area of priorities and location and planning seems to be the area that I would like to endorse to see that there is a higher ratio of success and less impingement on a particular community that has to face - because of government policy or what-have-you - to have them all located in a particular

section of the downtown core. So again asking for a review of the per diem, asking what is the cost and asking: have any people been making money out of this program? If it turns out that they've become incorporated and they have anywhere from six or eight homes at $20.00 a day and six children per home, it would seem to me that means in terms of dollars a large investment on behalf of the government and I would like to see that the underlings that this particular head man might hire are indeed the type of people that the government wants to see running their facilities. So with those comments, Mr. Minister, thank you. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 58(c)(3)--pass; 58(c)

(4) External Agencies - the Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: I wonder if the Minister could identify these external agencies and tell me approximately how much is spent in each one of these. here. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. DESJARDINS: This is all the Children's Aid Societies that are involved The adoption for this year - I haven't got the previous year - for this year there's 492. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 58(c)(4) --pass; Resolution 58(

d) Public Health Nursing Service - Salaries (1) - the Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: Well, first of all I would like to know how many people are involved in this salary of $136,500. I understand that these give the consultative services to the regional staff and monitors and refines program standards as far as the Public Health Nursing Services is concerned. Now I think that we are getting into an area here which is of some concern to some people and that is: are the public nurses - will they be the ones that will be administering the flu vaccine ?

If this is going to be the case then I would like to know how many public health nurses do we have? Will we have enough nurses to administer this program? Maybe the Minister at that time can also then tell us as to who is going to be vaccinated. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 58(d) - the Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, mine is mainly seeking information in that I wondered if the Minister might elaborate on the program as it stands today pertaining to the City of Winnipeg.

I understand the City of Winnipeg Health Department has a staff of public health nurses and I would like to find out if the Minister's Department pays 100 percent of the cost of those public health nurses. Then also how many of his public health nurses work in the City of Winnipeg? Mainly what I am trying to seek out is, is there any possibility of a duplication of services between his depart ment's public health nurses and those of the City of Winnipeg? MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 58 (d) - the Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Well, Mr. Chairman, I just have the one brief question.

That's the glaring figure in the statistics here in

Section 7, Table 1, Page 188 of the Venereal Disease increase from 3, 566 cases in 1973, 3, 577 in 1974; and 4, 246 in 1975.

April 12, 1976 2259 SUPPLY - HEA LTH (MR. McKENZI E cont'd) •.•.• Those are startling figures and maybe the Minister could give us some idea of what programs are being instituted and is there any possibility that this problem can be arrested and brought under some form of control ? The figures seem to be astronomical to me and growing. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. lVffi . DESJARDINS: The last question, I would like to inform my honourable friend that I'll take notice under the Medical Public Health and elaborate a little more.

As far as the City of Winnipeg we're dealing with the inner city only, not the suburbs. The funding will be close to one and a half million dollars this year. There is no duplication. The only place where we assist is under that VD program that was mentioned. The numbers of staff. There's nine and a half, the same as last year. As far as this influenza I would like to invite my honourable friend now to a press briefing that we will have at 1:30 on Wednesday when our staff return from the meeting that I mentioned in Ottawa where we'll be able to ask more of this.

So I would invite my honourable friend and my other friend from the liberal Party, at 1:30 - maybe you should check before. It will be in Room 103 and hopefully I'll have a statement for the House on Wednesday .afternoon also. As you know we have staff that will be attending a meeting with the other respre sentatives from the other provinces and the Federal Government tomorrow I think. Then on Wednesday I hope to have this briefing for the House. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 58(d)(1) - the Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR.

BROWN: I don't know if the Honourable Minister said how many public nurses there were at the present time. Nine and a half public nurses ? MR. DESJARDINS: In this appropriation. These are the people that are advising the people in the field. This is a small staff. There's only nine and a half, the complete thing under this number here. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 58(d)(1) . The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MR. AXWORTHY: Mr . Chairman, I just wonder if we could pursue a little bit the Minister's statement in relation to the news conference he plans to hold on Wednes day.

First let me express my surprise and amazement that I was able to get an invitation after I'd been told the embargo was on as of Fr iday but I'm glad that we've been able to overcome those differences. Mr. Chairman, the question that I would have for the Minister at this stage is: what are his plans in relation to the planning that would go on for the application of the vaccines in terms of the number of other health agencies involved in the province.

Have we had discussions with the hospitals, the community clinics, the other outreach programs that are available to discuss how they might be involved in the program and how they would allocate the resources or are we· waiting for the kind of announcement or the discussions that have been held in Ottawa at this time. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I think first of all we must wait for this meeting in Ottawa tomorrow because it will probably be decided then.

We're expecting to have some information to see how much vaccine will be available, when we're going to get it, how much each province is bound to receive and probably a guideline because it is a national program as to what ages will receive this vaccine and the purchasing of it and the administration. Ottawa wants to discuss with us the administration of this and I am told - I don't know all the details but I know that our committee here has been discussing it. I don't know if they've talked with different hospitals and so on but they've been discussing it with the people involved here normally.

I think that if we can be a little patient, I would hope that I'll have staff there on Wednesday also, and I would hope that we can give all the information. I wouldn't have this information before Wednesday and I thought that we should have that for the press. It's a little easier; they give the details. This is why I'd like to invite both of you there and there should be a statement in the House. I'm sure that we won't be finished with the Estimates and this could be discussed during the Estimates also.

2260 April 12, 1976 SUPPLY - HEALTH MR. CHAffiM AN: 58(d)(1)--pass; (d)( 2)--pass; 58(

e) Health Education and Library Services - Salaries (1) - the Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: Again I would like to !mow how many people are involved in this particular salary. I would like to !mow just exactly what is meant by Library , Services. "Provides a reference library and film service, audio-visual resources, design services, educational materials, support programs of the department and so on." There seems to be quite a bit of confusion in this particular item.

I've asked a number of people, I've tried to get some clarification on it from some of the health providers and they said certainly none of this material as far as they lmew had ever been available to them. I would like to lmow, if the Minister could tell me, just exactly who has access to the library services and also to the film service. MR. CHAffiM AN: The Honourable Minister of Health .and Social Development. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Chairman, if the Minis ter wants to wait out a couple of questions I have a few in respect of this activity in the department, primarily related to the educational programs that are being sponsored or perhaps not even being sponsored by the department in two areas that deal with young people. One is in the area of drug and alcohol education. I don't !mow if this depart ment is the one that handles that particular area --(Interjection)-- Yes, I recognize, Mr. Chairman, that there is a division of labour between the Minis ter of Corrections and Rehabilitation that he looks after alcoholism per se.

But I do n't !mow if the educational programs directly related to young people come under that area. If that's the case then perhaps - well we're through his Estimates so there's no way of asking him to answer it. Maybe I'll ask the other. It's is in the area of the question of family planning, to what degree this particular department supports or has a program in the area of family planning and education for young people in this particular area and whether in fact there is any particular policy or program that's presently being applied throughout the province. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley.

MR. WILSON: My contribution to this

section is that I was wondering under Health Education if the Minister, because of the number of programs that are on radio and TV and also businesses that have been set up within the province, that in fact so many of our people on social assistance and that do have a serious smoking problem - and I see the Minister is smoking himself.

I wondered if there was some thought given to where you have a serious health problem and it would be in the best interests of the person on social service to quit smoking, that either the government bring in one of these experts to teach them how to quit smoking or possibly pay for them to go in and take this treatment so that they would stop smoking . It seems to me that we have far too many people on social service that have serious alcoholic and lung problems, TB problems, related to smoking yet they seem to have no funds in which to be able to take a cure to quit smoking.

I was wondering if the government was looking at giving some treatment in this area or possibly allowing them to do something with this habit and I do call it a habit. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. BARROW: Mr. Chairman, is this an appropriate time to bring up conditions of industrial air, on this part of the Estimates? MR. CHAffiMAN : No. 58(e)(1) - Salaries "'-the Honourable Minister for. Rhineland. MR. BROWN: Mr.

Chairman, if the Minister is not quite ready to give us some of these answers I think that we're all prepared to wait until he's ready to answer. I think that we would like to have some answers on this particular item. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. DESJARDINS: On smoking. Well first of all I certainly don't want to diff erentiate between drinking and Sill.oking to the people on welfare and the others. It's a problem that everybody has, it doesn't matter if you're on welfare or if you're

April 12, 1976 2261 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) ••.•• a millionaire. It would be a lot better if you can stop smoking. As far as I'm concerned I don't inhale too much and it's a choice between weighing 350 lbs. and quitting smoking or maybe just staying at the 270 and smoking a little bit. So I've got two problems. And so, no, we have nothing special on smoking. Any information that we have and so on, fine. We certainly have pamphlets and things like that that we would make available, but I don't know of any expert.

My honourable friend talks about bringing in some expert that's going to help us to stop smoking, I think they've tried everything. Pnt beads in their ears , put everything in their nose, I don't know, it doesn't seem to work. If my honourable friend knows of any expert that can guarantee then refer him to me. I'd like to meet them and we can probably make a deal, But no, I think the people are aware of the danger of smoking and so on and it we can disseminate this information we certainly will but that's all we can do. As far as the family planning I don't think that we have a definite progr am.

We have a grant to the -w hat's the name of the administration? The Family Planning Administration that works in that and of course our public health nurses also have field work in that area, We have some information. There's a lot of work being done in the Federal Government and also they send us all this information. We in turn give that to our workers in the region and they work in that area. But the province as such hasn't got our own program on that. Did I miss any of your questions? --(Interjection)-- Oh yes, that's right. Well we make no exception.

It helps the people in the field, our own staff, communities, schools and everything. We have kind of a lending library of films, books, pamphlets and everything but we've never refused to give this information. We'll try to place this information in hospitals, in clinics, in waiting areas, anywhere. Certainly upon request we'll send all that material, or any material that we have. I don't know who my honourable friend was referring to but it's certainly being used an awful lot. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, by way of explanation.

What happens in the private sector and those not on social assistance, when their doctor tells them they must quit smoking or else they do a number of things, They go down to the Y to one of their programs or they go down to one of those people on grants who gather in a room and they blow smoke in the air and people realize how sillyit is; they smoke about two pack"" ages one after the other. Or they go to a Quit Centre which has on display a number of large diseased lungs and shows films on the hazards of smoking and for possibly a fee to the private sector - they probably do charge possibly far too much.

However I do think that these are the people that apparently are allegedly expertise in the field and are set up to have people quit smoking who, as I say, are working, who can afford it, if their doctor tells them to quit smoking.

If a doctor says to a patient who's on social services, you must quit smoking or else there 's no use you continuing to come in and visit because I'll tell you the same thing, I would think in light of a doctor's certificate that the person should be put through some form of an educational pro gram and possibly in the long run - I call it preventative because if this person does become ill and they are on social assistance we will have to then pay for them at the St.A mant Ward or some other clinic.

We may have to pay for their medical care and it would seem to me that if the doctor orders these people to quit smoking and they claim that they can't do so because of lack of funding then - it might be a very small percentage of the population, the figure may be less than 200 a year, but if there is those people that do require and their doctor has stated that they must quit smoking and the only way they can do so is by spending funds then possibly an examination of the Department as to what resources are available, what films are available, should be hammered home by the social worker to this person as a form of a guide to have them, for their own sake, to cease smoking.

MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, there's only one way to stop smoking and that's just to make up your mind. I don't like the fact that we'r e going to go out and

2262 April 12, 1976 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. DESJARDlNS cont'd) ••••. single out people on welfare for anything. You're going to ask these people, you're on welfare, well then you've got to stop smoking because you can't aff ord to buy cigarettes. They have access to their doctors the same as anybody else. I just finished telling you that this info rmation will go to communities and so on and this is all free, there is no charge. Now my honourable friend is talking about a certain class where they blow smoke.

The next thing will be we'll have to try to get people to quit drinking because they'll drink three or four bottles of booze and then they'll see how sick they are. There's no way that this government is going to �t involved in any of those programs. I would suggest to my friend that if there is somebody whose doctor has said that they must quit smoking and they heard about this class- and that's not very expensive because I think that they have certain things at the Y or different areas like this, these sessions where they blow smoke and so on.

If it costs a few dollars I would say that the money that they will save in not buying cigarettes, certainly they'll be able to pay for that themselves. There is no way that the government, with all the priorities that we have - I'm not saying by that that I don't consider that very serious - but this is like every thing else. This is like drinking. There's only one way, is you make up your mind. Certainly I don't want to leave my honourable friend with the feeling that maybe I'm going to look into that. I might as well give him the answer now.

There is no way that we're going to start having special courses for people on welfare so they can quit drinking or smoking. MR. CHAffiMA N: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: You know I didn 't want this to get out of hand but again I will re-explain myself. I was simply pointing out to the Minister - the Mini ster has taken my words and if he reads Hansard he'll see how he twisted them around.

I simply said that somebody on social assistance who has a smoking problem, whose doctor has said you must quit smoking - those that are not on social assistance can go down and get a finance company to loan them the money so they can take this course to quit smoking. I understand the owners of one of the firms that does this type of thing in town has suggested that they would do it for far less money than they charge the private sector for those that are on welfar e.

In other words, what I am saying is, if a welfare person goes in their on the advice of their doctor and the person says, this course will cost you $200; and they say, well I'm on welfare, I haw no money and they go down to the welfare worker and the welfare worker says, yes, we'd like you to take this course to quit smoking but the government has no policy of which they will pay out money so that this person can take this course. What I am saying is it is the people on social services that are being discriminated against. They do not have any government agency to turn to to get the money to quit smoking.

In other words, if it is a habit, if it's a recognized habit and the only way you can quit is through somebody showing you diseased lungs and maybe putting you through a course, then if it's to your self-inflicted health dangers and the only way you can get out of it is to have a centre which will help you quit smoking or if there is a doctor or if there is some course that is available. What I am saying is that under certain circumstances the government should make allowances for these people for the protection of their health. It may very well apply that this may have to go into the alcoholism area as well.

So we're talking about smoking and its hazard to people on social assistance and I fe el that the government should make allowances for those that want to take this course to stay alive. MR. CHAffi MAN: Resolution 58(e)(1) --pass; Resolution 58(e)(2) - the Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: I see that there is a substantial increase in Other Expenditures. I wonder if the Minister could explain where this money is spent. MR. CHAffiMAN : The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Develop- ment. MR.

DESJARDlNS: I think my honourable friend will realize that this is an area where the cost is very heavy on paper, printing and so on. The supplies are very

April 12, 1976 2263 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd ) • • • • • heavy and this is where the increase is going mostly. --(Interjection)-- Yes, this includes the Operation Renew. We're talking about the testing and so on and preventive, although the administration is now being transferred to the Fitness and Amateur Sports Director. But it is financed here, As I stated the other day I'm very pleased to have read just last week that the Federal Government is thinking of putting in some dollars in preventive health and so on.

I'm arudous to see that program announced because we, in Manitoba, the Department, are very concerned and very interested and I think we would cover a lot of these things, as the smoking and so on if this was done, if we have the facilities. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: I wonder if the Minister could tell me just how many communi ties a year renew the services? I know it's a good program and I would just like to know about how many people they service in a year ? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr . Chairman, my honourable friend is aware I'm sure that it's a travelling group.

I couldn't tell you at this time - I'll try to get this information to see how many communities it visited. My honourable friend said that it's a good program . I should be careful, the only time that I've been told that it was a good program and now I'm going to criticize it. I think it could be a good program but it shouldn't stop there. We want to follow through, We're looking to see if it's worth it. It's a terrific thing to go into a community but if you can't follow through it's not too helpful and we're trying to improve this program , we're looking at it now. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 58 (e)(2)- -pass; Resolution 58(

f) Home Economics Services - Salaries $139, 800. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: Thank you. Under the Home Economics Services the home economists they used to pay a very important role especially in rural Manitoba. They were a very well respected group of individuals. They worked very hard with 4-H work in nutrition and cooking, sewing clothes and things of that nature and they did an excellent job.

I was just a little concerned when I read again in the Annual Report of the Manitoba Department of Health and Social Development of some of the activities that the home economists now are being involved in. I would just like to read from the bottom of Page 43 in the Annual Report: "Other program development, staff training, and teaching resource production have been geared to the lower income client with emphasis on money management practices, and money saving skills.

Some developments include a pamphlet series on Some Facts of Repossession, Credit Take Care, a Foot in the Door, Four Ways to Get Out of Debt and Money Goes Further With A Budget. Another series comprised Records for the Farm Home, Budgets for the Farm Home, Buymanship for the Farm Home. Some of the teaching practices produced were A Case for Records, Consumer Rights, Responsibilities and Remedies, Protection of Savings from Insurance, The Financial Side of Marriage, Advertising, Baby's First Wardrobe , Togs for Tiny Tots, Fabric Flammability, Home Repair Improvement.

New courses completed were Recovering Kitchen Chairs, Furniture Refinishing and Home Maintenance for the Novice. " Then they went into some of the games and some of the games they came up with Budget, Budget, Who's Got the Budget; Budget Bingo; Money Jungle; Money Manage ment Puzzle and The Label Game. Mr. Minister , I went to the trouble to pick up some of this material that they are working on, some of the money, Four Ways to Get OUt of Debt, Some Facts on Repossession, Credit Take Care.

Some of these things are available at any bank or any credit union and I think that there is an absolute duplication of some of the services. They are available really to anybody in the community. I have one pamphlet over here - just tn slrowyou some of the things that they are really - this is called Timely Tricks that Guarantee no Torture to the Trier. Not that's a dandy. MR. ENNS: That's a new sex manual, that's right. MR. BROWN: Having troubles with lumpy gravy? For thiokening gravies and creaming vegetables, shake the flour and liquid in a tightly capped jar. Using a cap of

2264 April 12 , 1976 SUPPL Y - HEA LTH (MR. BROWN con t'd) •. ••• a flavoring bottle for a measure instead of a measuring spoon saves in the washing of measuring spoons. It's things of that nature. You know it's really insulting as far as I'm concerned to the intelligence of the people of this prov- ince. I also went and picked up some of the games that we have Budget, Budget, Who' s Got the Budget? I paid $7. 00 for this and this is all that I got for the $7. 00 is dice and the men don't come with it. --(Interjection)-- I bought that from the Queen's Printer. MR .

ENNS: It's all part of the games you have the home economists playing now instead of helping little guys like me. MR. BROWN: After looking at this game there is just, I would say no way that this is guing to be one of the best sellers . It's very uninteresting and I'd say as far as Budget, Budget, Who's Got the Budget is concerned, I would suggest that maybe the Hon ourable Member from St. Johns and the Premier should be playing that one. We know who's the better player there. Money Jungle. This one is less money, it's only $6. 00 and The Label Game .

I'm rather distressed to say the least that the home economists have come down to this sorry stage when they used to play such an important role. I hope that the Minister can give us some comments on that particular program . I would like to know in the Salaries of $13 9, 800 how many people are involved in that particular Salary ? MR. DESJ ARDINS: Mr •. Chairman, first of all these pamphlets. They're not all prepared for people with the I.Q. of my honourable friend, for the education of my hon ourable friend. There are some people who can hardly read; there are some old people.

I wouldn't certainly begrudge them. Some are probably better than others. Now my hOnourable friend tells me that the best way to budget or get out of debt, that you can get that at the bank and the credit union. I venture to say that they'll prob ably tell you the best way is to borrow money from them. You tell me if it's duplication. You make sure you read both because I don't imagine that the bank and the credit union are too interested, instead of promoting their business, and that is lending money. I'm not saying that it's not a good way.

Oh I've seen some of them because I've been trying to get out of debt for a long time. Whenever I get this kind of information I like to read it. I'd like to, if I may, Mr. Chairman - I know we passed this but I'm trying to catch up with some of these questions. The adoption placements for the year 1975 were 492; 1974 were 519. The foster children in foster homes as of March 1, total number of homes in operation 1, 780, approximately 2, 500 children in those homes . That changes nearly every day anyway. That' s the closest that I can give you. Renew - there were 12 communities visited last year.

I can' t comment too much more on these pamphlets. I remember when my friend Mr. Shewmaker was there he used to be a lot of fun with those pamphlets. So did I by the way so I'm probably vulnerable on that. But I'd like to tell my honourable friend seriously that this is intended for a class of people who might find them helpful. We're supposed to have experts on that who are looking at the pamphlets that are good, whatever is serving the purpose and I am told that this is what they are doing.

Now I would imag ine that they are looking at that every year to improve their material and if there are some that are not doing the trick then they will take them off the shelves. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, I just want to raise an issue with the Min ister that gues back to a resolution that I brought forward in the House about two years agu which received less than enthusiastic support by mem bers, and that dealt with the question of nutrition at that time.

It seems to be that you have to wait for a time when ideas come but at that time it seemed to me that there had been a report from the Fed eral Government on the deficiencies in the nutrition of groups of people, particularly older people and younger children. One of the proposals that they recommended at that time was the establishment of nutrition and fitness centres where people could get advice on the nutritional value of different foods, could take their own diets in for re-examination

April 12, 1976 2265 SUPPLY - HEA LTH (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ••.•. and get guidance on those and in fact get themselves health tested to determine whether in fact they were suffering from any kinds of deficien cies. Now I believe since that time the Provincial Government has established a form of mobile trailer of some kind that goes around and does something similar to that . But it strikes me, Mr. Chairman, that the issue of nut rition is gaining increasing prominence as we become more aware of the important connection between that and preventive health and preventive medicine.

I'm just again wondering if we at the present time have any plan in mind either on a joint basis with other levels of government, whether we are in tending to establish places where people can get advice and assessment of nutritional problems , nutritional values of food tested out, get advice and counselling on diets that they may apply for good and do so under a proper kind of cost factor. I recall, Mr. Chairman, I had a session at my constituency office about two months ago where we had a home economist down and we invited a bunch of older people from the riding.

About 60 or 70 came over and she was able in a matter of about two hours to pass on a number of really pretty useful hints about kinds of foods to buy, cuts of meat, the nutritional value of them, which cost le ss, which cost more, and it was the first time that many of these people had ever had that kind of counselling or guidance given to them. We have since then printed up some of it and dist ributed it to them, not in pamphlet form but just in a typewritten sheet which was pretty cheap. I'm just wonder ing - it appears to me at the time the issue of nutrition has become increasingly of more concern.

I think we're now perhaps more aware of its importance to good health and I wonder within these Estimates if the Home Economics Branch is planning any kind of out reach program in the area of nutrition and provide places or opportunities where people can get very specific counselling upon their individual diet, the kinds of foods that would be most appropriate to their circumstances , where they could be obtained, how they can obtain them and in fact maybe do some testing on the present food consumption that they have. It came to mind , Mr.

Chairman, because I was just reading somethin g this week end where it indicated that in a matter of two or three years almost 40 percent or 50 percent of the women will be in the work force and there's been amazing growth in the area of fast food types of outlets where less and less people sort of cook meals at home where they have some control of it and are buying foods in hamburger stands and I guess there are 101 varieties of fast food outlets around the place, and whether again there has been any attempt to provide the people with information about nutritional values of those kinds of foods so that if people have to provide or by the nature of their occu pations use fast foods increasingly as part of their home diets , whether they are able to get any information or direct guidance on what is best to buy and what to avoid and all the rest of those kinds of things .

I was really wondering really if the province in co operation with other agencies is doing anything in this area at the present moment. MR. CHAIRMAN: Honourable Minister of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, we have this program now. Most of what my honourable friend is saying, that' s exactly what this group is doing. Most of their work is in this area under the direction of Mrs. Gail Watson. We •re very pleased and very proud of her. This work is being done and the delivery is done also of services in the area by our regional directors , the team.

There is a nutritionist on the team or at least the information. I don't say there is one for each region but that service is available and the delivery, of course, of this is not only by our department. We do this in. the City of Winnipeg but Northern Affairs and Agriculture are also doing it , the Departments . But the expertise and the co-ordinating is done through our department and I'm sure that what my friend describes, this is exactly what we are doing. We could probably improve it all the time.

I am told that there is a committee of staff of HESJ> which is looking at this also to see if we can enrich or improve our policies in this area also. I think that for the last few years we've improved in this program very much. MR. AXWORTHY : The value of a program like this I suppose comes not in having people doing it but making sure that it has a wide distribution to the people who

2266 April 12, 197 6 SUPP LY -H EA LTH (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ••••• need it. I think there's a balance between the two. I was particularly struck in the case I mentioned, where we were holding a ses sion on food buying and nutrition and so on, where those infamous pamphlets were given and I would only say grudgingly becaus e they were very concerned that somehow - it was almost as if you didn't want the public to hav e the pamphlets . We were kind of told we' ll give you two. We said, no, we expect 50 or 60 people .

Well you almost had to sort of sign a promissory note that in fact you were going to have 50 people in order to get the pamphlets out of the office. It seemed to me that there was a less than open approach and it seemed to me that while there may be people doing the kind of programs it's not well known nor widespread and it would appear only of any use when it is widely dis seminated and widely distributed. I'm glad to hear that such programs are now taking place but I guess I'm suggest ing I don't think people know where to go to do it.

I don't know how many people are likely to walk into a field office of a Regional Health Unit or into the Norquay Building or wha tever place and pick up the pamphlets. I think it needs to have something that gets widely distributed, otherwise it's of no use to any body. I wonder if the Minister could describe to us what does take place in the way of active programs of outreach or whether there is specified programs going into schools, into senior citizens' organizations, into a variety of community organi zations and maybe you could descr ibe those. How many places have been visited ?

How many meetings have been held ? Give us some extent of the scope and activity of this program . MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman , as I stated we have these progra ms. How many places have been visited, I'll have to take that as notice and try to get this information.

But we have that for prena tal, for schools, for older people , in the communities , our re gional people also and I've asked my colleague here why we were so cheap when this question was asked , why were we so cheap with these pamphlets, and I'm told , wen of course there 's always the high cost of printing those but the main reason is that these pamphlets are not meant to replace the economists. This is something that I'm told should be explained to the people. They don't like to give them away if there is not somebody there explaining the program . There was somebody there ?

Well I guess we were cheap or they didn't bring it up. I'll have to look into that. I'll try to get the information as to how many places they've visited. • • • • • continued next page

April 12, 1976 2267 SUPPLY - HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 58(f)(1)-- pass; 58(2)--pass - The Honourable Member for Rhine land. going? MR. BROWN: Could the Minister tell us where these Other Expenditures are MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. DESJARDINS: The major items include $18 .6 thousand for art work and contract work for the development of special materials; $54, 000 for regular office statio nery and teaching materials and $22, 000 for teaching equipment which inc ludes films, pro jectors, etc. MR. CHAIRMAN: (f)(2)--pass; (

g) Continuing Care Services - Salaries (1) $1,157, 800 - the Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: Thank you, Mr . Chairman . We're coming to a rather large ex penditure here of $1, 157, 800 . I wonder if the Minister could tell us how many people are involved in this particular salary . I believe there is no denying the value of the Home Care Pr ogram . I think that we can all see the value of this particular program but there are some concerns that we do have about this program .

I would like to ask some ques tions of the Minister and that is: how many people are receiving home care at the present time ? We know that the number must be substantial , there has been a substantial in cr ease in the total expenditure here . I wonder if he could give us the total number of people who are receiving home care at the present time . I wonder if he could give us what the average cost would be of home care . -- (Interjec tion)-- The average cost for home care . There has been quite an increase in expenditure over here, and I think that we '11 have to try to maintain control somehow.

I wonder just exactly how the Minister is go ing to go about controlling this expenditure . I wonder if the Minister ever thinks about where this program is going to take us in the next ten years . If we 're going to increase in the expenditure the way we have during the last year, the cost is going to be astrono mical . -- (Interjection)-- Fine. We'd like to have the total picture . I would like to know who the doctors are that are in charge of the Home Care Program . I imagine that it 's a doctor really that determines how much home care a person has .

There must be a doctor who is in charge of the program so if he could tell us who the doctor is in charge in the Home Care Program . Like I said it's going to be very difficult to control the costs in this particular item. So I wonder if the Minister could give us some comments on these questions that I posed . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Well, Mr . Chairman, I just want to really not raise any questions to the Minister but more make a very firm assertion on the part of our own group .

This is one program that we would like to see, without question, improved and expanded upon. It is, I think, one of the most important initiatives taken by this govern ment and other governments in trying to provide an alternative to elderly care •' I say it mindful of the fact that in my constituency, in some parts of it, there are close to 20 or 30 percent of the population in certain census tracts which are above the age of 60 and at the pres ent moment many of them are not able to get the kind of care that they require . Just to give some examples.

During this last winter when we had some very heavy snowstorms many older people were confined to their homes because there was no one to shovel their walk; there was no one to do shopping services; there was not imme diate transportation ser vices to the grocery stores, Safeway, banks and doctors and it would seem to me that one of the really necessary areas beyond the kind of care that is now given at the pres ent moment is to provide those areas of home maintenance care and perhaps even further some form of transportation service if the philosophy of this kind of program is to be carried out.

I think that the basic idea of allowing or enabling older people to remain in their homes and to ensure that they get adequate medical pro tection and homemaker services when required is important and cer tainly much cheaper than putting them into nursing homes or alternate care . There 's no question I think that that is a much preferable approac h both from the point of view of the community itself, probably from the economic point of view and certainly from the point of view of the

2268 April 12, 1976 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. AXW ORTHY cont'd) • • • • • individuals involved . I am suggesting at the present momen t there are large numbers of older people who are suff ering, not because of major problems, of major breakdown in health, but by the small problems . I can only again say that I think I gave the Minister in fact an estimate that during this winter I must have logged 50 - 60 calls from people in my own riding which incorporates this downtown area who simply were in many cases frightened because the heavy snowf alls would come.

We used to have a couple of LIP Programs in the downtown area which would provide snow shovelling during the winter months . Those programs were not available this year. I think Winnipeg North Centre got them all or something else, or Churchill. As a result a program that people had come to rely upon simply as a way of getting out their sidewalk and being able to go down to the store, was no longer available. They were literally confined to their homes or their apartments for long periods of time.

I would say, without being highly critical of other levels of govern ment, the snow removal procedures followed by City of Winnipeg workmen leaves a lot to be desired because they simply whip down the street, they put a two-foot high snow block in front of someone's walk and they simply couldn't get out because they're in some cases too frail . The same case is true with food services . There do not seem to be with the exception of places like 185 Smith, places where there are high concentrations of older people who can go to get a relatively cheap and easy meal.

Again I can think that in my own constituency, a place like 400 Stradbrook could provide a very important service, a food service for people within walking distance or within very close transportation service. I've often wondered for example in an area where there are large numbers of older people, where you have nursing homes providing hot meal service, somehow it seems strange that someone who li ves in the apartment next door can't go over to that nursing home or that alternate care home to get a proper meal just simply because we don't seem to have any way of co-ordinating these on a community basis .

So let me suggest, Mr . Chairman, that one of the things I think that has to happen in those areas of the province where there are larger numbers of older people, is that the program of home care has got to be decentralized to a local neighborhood level or community level so that there is both some ability to get proper information as to what services are available - so that whether it's in Fort Rouge or Wolseley or Elmwood, or even some of the suburban areas where there are a number of older people - in many cases they don't !mow what kind of maintenance services are available .

Again I would recite the fact that they would call my office and ask where they could get their snow shovelled or where could they get some transportation to a doctor's offi ce . There isn't any way in whic h on the local small neighborhood level the availability of different services, Meals on Wheels and so on - many people simply don't !mow that they're available, they don't !mow that they're there. There doesn't seem to be any way of disseminating that information or having someone go and do an outreach program.

I again am mindful of the study that was done by Klinic last year when it went into the immediate area in Wolseley, south of Broadway, and again found out that one of the major problems that older people had was nothing basically physical but oftentimes simply a matter of loneliness, simply not having the ability to get some kind of accessible trans portation to take them around the area, to go to the local grocery store or the bank or the doctor's place. I would sugge st, Mr.

Chairman, that if we're looking at ways of cutting back costs, that investments of supplying those kind of community services in areas like transportation, snow shovelling, home maintenance care, being able to do some paint work and fix light bulbs would be a cost saving. If you compare the cost of build ing a nursing home bed or personal home care bed the $20 or $30 or $50 or $60 that it costs per day to keep someone in those beds as opposed to the cost of putting some of those services on the local level would certainly by any measurement provide a much more efficient and effective standard of care.

So I would simply say, Mr. Chairman, I think that first the initial introduction of this program has been benefic ial in terms of supplying medical care to people and homemaker services and a Meals on Wheels program. But I would say that I think that

April 12, 1976 2269 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) • • • • • there could be a much more effective delivery of those services and perhaps some new services applied . I would like to suggest in fact an approach that 's been tried in New Brunswick and one that I tried to get initiated in my riding without much success and that was to incorporate this kind of community care service for older people with employment pro grams, that in fact you are able to achieve two objectives at once .

That you can take older people who are still quite able to move around, you can take women who don't have any high education skills, bring them into the work forc e and through programs like LIP and Work Activity, incorporate that as part of providing some manpower in a training program to in effe ct provide community workers to provide these kinds of services to people. We have initiated I believe a Work Activity Program at 185 Smith for food serv ices .

But I think that basic idea of using a combined two objectives at one time, provid ing care for older people in their presen t acc ommodations, with employment, would fulfill two very important social objectives.

At the present time we don't really have anything being tried like that in a comprehensive way on the community level and I would like to see this government initiate programs like that where in fact we were able to provide a range of information, home care maintenance and perhaps other services and perhaps do so through the way of employment training programs such as is employed with Work Activity at 185 Smith.

I think that the experience of the New Brunswick program has been very valuab le in that respect, and I would expect that maybe we could also get some Federal co- operation if someone would take the time and initiative to bring this about . I believe that the New Brunswick program in fact did initiate through Federal work pro grams, they established this kind of outreach program. That would be one side of the question I'd like to raise, Mr . Chairman.

The other side of course is the plug up in the system presently with personal care homes, nursing homes, because one of the pressures put on this program of home care is simply that there are not a full range or adequate range of alternative fac ilities that people can be put into, that while the home continuing care workers can do the initial assess ment and make judgments there are very large wait ing lists as we all know and even though the Minister I think is committed to building 600 new beds in the next year or so that that still really isn't suff icient to meet the need of all the people and that many people are simply left waiting for months upon end.

I think that most members in this House who have numbers of elderly people in their own ridings could recite cases of people who have really serious physical problems and ailments and that no longer is it possible to keep them in their own homes, they simply can't be moved because there's really no place to go . I would simply say I think that that is one of the real lacks in priorities at the present moment. I guess I do question for example the priorities of spending a lot of money in a place like Seven Oaks Hospital as compared to putting a really major push of providing alternate care for senior citizens .

I think in the two parts of the program . One, I would like to see resources put into a greatly improved and expanded continuing care program that extends the 'range of services, provides them at the community level and yet inc orporates private agencies and public agencies on the neighborhood scale . At the same time all of us would like to see a much stronger emphasis put on providing alternate facilities because there's no point in doing asses sment of needs if there really is no place to put them. I think that 's the kind of shortage and shortfall that we're experiencing at the present moment.

We simply do not have enough care and we have fallen back and I frankly don't think that we're giving enough incentive in many cases in the private field to provide those facilitie s. I think we 've got to do a combination of diff erent kinds of programs, not simply the construction under public auspices that perhaps provides diffe rent kinds of incentives . So those are the two areas of this particular program, Mr.

Chairman, that I have concerns about and would encourage the Minister to perhaps in what time he has left to give us his asses sment of both the prospect of expansion and improvement in the continuing care home care aspect as well as in the alternate facilitie s. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina . MR. GEORGE HENDERSON (Pembina) : Mr . Chairman, I've been listening to the Member from Fort Rouge. I've got to agree with his last part of it but he is talking

2270 April 12, 1976 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR . HENDERSON cont'd) • • • • • pretty much from a city point of view. I know out in the rural areas where we haven't got enough home care because we haven't got the beds, we haven't got the facilities. They try to have people come to see them but they can't even get there because of the roads and they have to look after them selves. The Member from Fort Rouge he wants somebody to come and change their lamp bulbs and shovel off their walks and do everything else for them .

If we listened to him I don't know what all we'd be providing for everybody; we'd be leaving them with no respon sibility to look after themselves or their young ones or their relatives should do anything for them.

When I hear him talking like that, and he's wanting everything provided for everybody, I get a little bit fed up with it • It isn't that I don't believe that the senior citizens deserve care, and that we should be doing more for them, I think possibly what I find out in my area is there's some people that can't get into these care homes either because the ones that are there are filled or else they haven't got one or else they can't get into the one in the other area .

I know that there's people that have been up near 90 that have been staying with relatives and the relatives can't go out of the house in case they fall or something like this and can't get up . And they've been an awful worry to them. They've tried to get them into care homes but there isn't the care home facilities . These are the people I'm caring a lot more about than the people that can't change their own lamp bulbs or can't phone up taxi when in the city or any of this here stuff or having somebody on the LIP Program come down and do something for them. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, the first thing that I want to say is that we don't take a back seat to any province including New Brunswick in this. As far as the Federal Government is concerned the best Home Care Program is right here in Manitoba. I want to say also that this program is not only for older people. I imagine that the biggest percentage would be older people. That's for children and middle age and so on. It is a system of trying to have the guidelines to have everybody in Manitoba get the same kind of care .

Now the staff here has been increased from 93 to 101. I want to say to my honourable friend who is very concerned - well maybe I should say first of all to the Honourable Member from Fort Rouge that this is a Home Care Program and it might be related to snow shovelling and so on but this is not the main responsibility of this department. If the government have any of these programs, fine, we '11 co-operate with them. But our main concern now as far as the snow and so on is to make sure that the workers and the homemakers can get to these homes and that we do.

So that is the main thing and my friend from Carman can rest easy, we're not thinking of enriching this program at this stage that we're going to change light bulbs. I think that we've got enough work to do before we go into this. There was a question asked, there's 8, 000, there is 8, 000 people - now I think that last year there was 6, 430 and as of December there was 7, 315 . Now we're up to 8, 000 people on this, that are receiving help and the average is about $70 - $75 a month for these things. So when you worry about the cost remember what we 're saving also, if these people were in a personal care bed.

There is a minimum saving of $220, 000 per month or over $2! million for these people . They're not on this forever . There's some people that are waiting for a bed, not only personal care beds, it might be in the hospital or people that have just come out of the hospital that they might have a broken leg and so on but they can go home, and this is the area that we serve . There certainly is people that are hired . There's 1, 470 homemakers in the prov ince, 528 right here in Manitoba. So these people are getting work, this is what we employ .

They do the work, mind you, and I'm talking about homemakers, I'm not talking about nurses or social workers or doctors or anything like that. No, this is not run by a doctor and I don't think that we would want a doctor to run this • I don't think a doctor would want to run this program. Our medical programs of course all come fr om the doctors and many of the referrals come from the doctors. We have our director and we run this program our selves . I think that we should also· state that a very important part of this program is the medical home care equipment also which is used .

April 12, 1976 2271 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. DESJARDINS cont'

d) We are improving and we hope that we will increase certain progra=s as the need develops . I am told that in most of the city Meals on Wheels are available . If the people don't know anything about that the doctor should tell them or the hospital should tell them because they know about our programs • Their social worker would tell them and certainly the department, if they phone the department. It's true that this takes a while . It's a fairly new program and it takes a while before the people find out what is available .

But this is a very very good program, it's a progra= that - sometimes we have to spend money to save money and this is one of the times • So I'd like to tell my honourable friend from Rhineland not to be too concerned because we 're actually saving money . I would agree with the Honourable Member from Fort Rouge that certain areas should be less centralized and we're working on that now. We're talking about the city here mostly and we are establishing seven regions in the area which will deliver this pro gra=. This is an area that we're involving all the communities on that.

The hospitals are very much involved, but then again you've got to be careful. You don't want home care, all the direction to come from the hospital, just a hospital-named program or hospital-related. It is a bit of both, from the community and the hospital also . Some of the areas and that's probably in this item, I don't even know if I should say I disagree with the Member from Fort Rouge. But I think that I certainly would like to encourage the volunteers . I think this is one of the areas that we 're trying to co ordinate that. We have certain grants to give them to co-ordinate.

For instance we have a progra= of vo lunteers that phone people which is a terrific progra=. People will be away for a while and they have an old sister or a mother and these people get a phone call every day. We have some people that are very very independent that don't want any part of anybody at all. So these are the programs and as I say, Meals on Wheels .

Meals on Wheels they pay for their meals, it's a nominal thing and I think this should lead us, in the last 30 seconds, that we're very interested also in developing with my friend the Minister responsible for Housing, an enriched senior home where we could have some of those meals right there • It would still be their home and instead of putting them in a personal care home we would bring some of the services there. Because you know, you have people in one of those senior citizens homes, they think it's fantastic but all of a sudden they start worrying about mother and father because they don't eat and so on.

I would hope that we will see the day where we'll have homes, not personal care homes, residences where you won't need kitchens and so on, in certain areas with some people that cannot take care of themselves . I think the idea is to get them to work as much as possible, make their beds even if you have to send somebody after them to remake the beds but to keep them active and so on.

I would hope that part and parcel of this whole delivery system would be an enriched senior citizen home on the first step, which is actually a home ,care that you're bringing to an area or to a residence before they're forced to go into the personal care home. MR. CHAffiMAN: Order . Order please . In accordance with Rule 19(2) of our House Rules, I'm interrupting the proceedings of the Committee for Private Members' Hour and shall return to the Chair at 8 p.m. this evening.

2272 April 12, 1976 PRIVATE MEMBERS' HOUR MR. SPEAKER: Order Pl ease. Private Members' Hour. Resolutions. Resolu- tion 14 . The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Stand please, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: It goes down. Resolution 15. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. RESOLUTION 15 MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member for Assi niboia that ''WHEREAS because of constitutional division of pow ers the Federal Government lacks the authority to establish a National Energy Policy and direct how that policy is to be fulfilled; and

WHEREAS the participation and co-operation .of the provinces is therefore nec essary to develop a National Energy Policy and establish goals , set priorities and obtain national objectives; and

WHEREAS our present National Energy Policy is being developed out of a series of ad hoc conferences; and

WHEREAS it is desirable that a permanent Advisory Board be established to re ceive and consider suggestions from both federal and provincial governments and advi se both levels of governments on priorities, costs , inter-governmental co-operation, fiscal implications and long range planning; THEREFORE

be it resolved that this House endorse the establishment of a Nat ional Energy Advisory Board on a permanent basis , with full-time administration, and with permanent representatives of all provinces, a function of which shall be to ad vise as to the establishment of National Energy goals and the means to attain them on a cooper ative basis between provinces and the Federal Government, and the Government of Canada and the other provinces be urged to adopt and implement this concept. " MOTION presented. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Speaker, in introducing the particular resolution we'd like to first say that one of the healthy results of the energy shortages that we began to experience in an extreme way about two or three years ago, was that it has caused many to do some serious rethinking about the way we organize our community and our society; that for a long period of time we were able to enjoy the indulgence of cheap energy and therefore were able to undertake a great deal of waste and a lack of appreciation on just how valuable these resources are.

I think beginning about 1973 the truth came home that we were no longer in a time when we could afford to indulge ourselves to waste these resources and that in many cases we would have to decide upon a much more real istic set of priorities. It seems to me, Mr.

Speaker, that one of the ironies of the last couple of years, when you like to consider yourself as a citizen of one-nation-state, when you read about how in the Province of Al berta they have a billion dollar surplus gener ated out of their fuel sales or their sales of fossil fuels, and in the Province of the Maritimes heating costs and electrical generating costs are going up 30 or 40 percent, it seems that that kind of irony is something that if allowed to continue will simply pro vide the break-up of this Confederation and perhaps the energy crisis in its own way may be a much more serious threat to national unity than former problems of language and regional disparity, that the kind of conflict that can be generated by the have and have nots , between the blue .•• of Al berta and the have nots of the Maritimes , and in many cases of Manitoba, are really of such an extent and of such seriousness that we will simply provide a horrendous kind of conflict and disagreement to the point where of those who are not able to enjoy the fruits of national unity may decide that it's in their inter ests just to get out.

And you know, the average is , for example, in Nova Scotia, where the average heating bill is $1, 800 to $2, 000 for one home, and in the Province of Alberta they've got more fuel to, I guess to burn as they say. At the same time we can see the kind of problems in our own province where· as each of the provinces goes about attempting to

April 12, 1976 2273 RESOLUTION 15 (MR. AXWORTHY cont'

d) go in the money markets and acqui re large amounts of capital for the exploitation of its resources , whether they are oil and gas or hydro electric , or whatev er; you've got a billion dollar bond issue going in Quebec, six hundred million dollar hydro issue in Ont ario; two or three hundred million dollars in this province last year; a couple of billion dollars for the Syncrude Project in Alberta, contemplated six or seven billion dollars for the McKenzie Valley Pipeline , it' s estimated something close to $20 billion is going to be expended in the next decade in the exploration and development of energy resources .

The pressure that puts upon money markets and the tremendous kind of inflation ary pressure it puts on this country is one of the contributing ca uses for our present economic difficulties . If there was only some way to phase those developm ents , of de veloping ways in which you know, Al berta goes this year and we go next year, so there is a co -ordinating way of bringing together the fiscal lending policies and borrowing pol icies of the governments in relation to that energy. And yet, Mr. Speak er, they are not co-ordinated , they are every province doing as it should .

It's trying to protect the in terest of its citizens ; it is getting in as quickly as possible and we're all going to the same markets at the same time and interest rates are going up, and we are simply pro viding that kind of infla tionary push that endan gers again the economic stability of the country. We see the kind of disputes that arose in this province, Mr. Speake r, over the problem of the export of electric power that we are attempting to sell to the United States .

Again the lack of a proper ••• system in Canada so that if there is to be for power to be exported it's difficult to export it to Ontario or Sask atchewan because there isn't very many ••• sort of official ways of getting it there. As a result again that simply means that we have to look at American markets and we're not getting it, as a nati onal country not able to provide for full protection of our own interests nationa lly. And one of the problems why it happens is that since the energy crisis govern ments have been respondin g, but they've been really responding in an ad hoc way .

I think the First Minister himsel f indicated in this House in the question period a couple of weeks back , that the re's all kinds of, sort of a First Ministers' Conference scheduled and Finance Ministers ' Conferences and Energy Ministers ' Conferences , and each one is giving the particular problem; do we ra ise the price of natural gas or oil? How do we try to provide some subsidy?

And each one tends to focus on the immediate combustible political problem of the time without being able to get some law and some planning into the system , being ab le to sit down in a continuous way , and even though there are work ing committees and federal provincial civil servants working, there doesn't seem to be, at the pres ent moment at least, a clear-cut set of ongoing set of priorities. I think the First Minister himself acknowledged that when he said that the western premiers had re quested that there be some form of borrowing policies for energy resources. But noth ing has been decided yet.

It seems to me that maybe one of the reasons why it hasn't been decid\')d is that we ha ven't really yet established the machinery . And one of the issues that the legis lato rs of both federal and provincial levels have had to face in this country for the past 100 years , is ways , in a sense, of having to make up for the visions of our Fathers of Confederation who didn't see that there was going to be problems of energy.

At that time they were still running around in sailing ships and the railroads were big things , and they didn 't foresee that someday that the sheiks over in the middle east would pro vide embar goes or begin putting prices up; that was not part of their foresig ht, and no one could expect it to be. But one of the maj or ongoing tasks as Ca nadians has always been to try and develop machinery for improving upon the basic constitutional bas e.

We made ma jor advanta ges in that area when we finally decided to some extent of working out ways of dividing up the income tax and the corporate tax load and getting the Federal Government to overall colle ctions and working out fiscal provincial agreements in the area of finance. Well, it seems to me, Mr. Speake r, we need a similar kind of basic agree ments in the area of ener gy. The reason we put the resolution forward is we don't think that the present kind of machinery that we ha ve, the ad hoc federal-provincial

2274 April 12, 1976 RESOLUTION 15 (MR. AXWORTHY cont'

d) conferences, are designed to achieve that overall plan , that longer range point of view, that ability to keep a consistent set of programs and guidelines being enunciated. In fact it's interesting to note, Mr. Speaker, that it wasn't until the Royal Commission, the Rowell-Sirois Report came out, outlining a major program of fiscal reorganization that really began to set in motion the wheels of coming to some rationalization of fiscal relationships in this country. Now I guess the Royal Commissions --(Interjection)- Pardon me? It very well may be. And I agree in this case with the Mines Minister.

I am concerned about the way in which everyone is doing, is kind of protecting their own interest. But I would say to the Minister, because without digressing too fully, that some of the same practices that the Federal Government is applying to the provinces, this province and others are applying to the municipalities.

The same question of back ing off agreements , and the same principle that the Federal Government is now saying to the Provincial Governments is that those jurisdictions that spend the money must raise the money, is the principle this government always seems to en unciate in this House as being applied to municipalities.

So it may be that we have to overcome in some cases or transcend the sense of self-interest that each jurisdiction is now pulling itself into, which is almost a natural inclination in times of crisis and uncertainty, is that every government tends to pull its horns in and again is simply trying to protect its own bound aries and its own jurisdictions without realizing that the times call for something perhaps of a more transcendent nature of a national scope.

While we did discuss amongst our own group that maybe would it be possible, or would the machinery that we require be duplication of something like the Rowell Sirois Report, we felt that perhaps because of this day and age where there had been so many commissions and task forces that people have grown skeptical about their use and that they tend to take an awful long time to report, that maybe the establishment of a permanent advisory board with proper staff and resources to undertake that kind of plan ning, development of guidelines working out priorities , might be the best machinery to provide for that national energy policy which we all I think desire and see the need for.

We see that one of the first areas that we could undertake would be in trying to rationalize a research in the energy field. We realize that there is no point in Manitoba putting some money into solar energy, a little bit here, and Alberta putting a little bit, and Ontario putting a little bit in, we should in a sense concentrate our resources. So if we're going to try and develop solar energy maybe it should all be done i

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-3-72
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 3rd hansardpdf 72.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	86da1d9ded76d29329bd703666efb321b12797ef

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).