MG-8048 Third Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 42 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLII No. 69A • 1:30 p.m., TUESDAY, MAY 25,1993 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACOUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park RinRon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River Rossmere Rupertsland PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

3288 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 25,1993 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): It is my duty to inform the House of the unavoidable absence of Mr. Speaker and, therefore, in accordance with the statutes, I would ask the Deputy Speaker to take the Chair. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Madam Deputy Speaker: I have reviewed the petition (Mr. Santos). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and

WHEREAS over 55,000 children depend upon the Children's Dental Program; and

WHEREAS several studies have pointed out the cost savings of preventative and treatment health care programs such as the Children's Dental Program; and

WHEREAS the Children's Dental Program has been in effect for 17 years and has been recognized as extremely cost-effective and critical for many families in isolated communities; and

WHEREAS the provincial government did not consult the users of the program or the providers before announcing plans to eliminate 44 of the 49 dentists, nurses and assistants providing this service; and

WHEREAS preventative health care is an essential component of health care reform. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 1993-94 budget. Madam Deputy Speaker: I have reviewed the petition (Mr. Clif Evans). It complies with the rules and practices of the House (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? (agreed] Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and

WHEREAS over 55,000 children depend upon the Children's Dental Program; and

WHEREAS several studies have pointed out the cost savings of preventative and treatment health care programs such as the Children's Dental Program; and

WHEREAS the Children's Dental Program has been in effect for 17 years and has been recognized as extremely cost-effective and critical for many families in isolated communities; and

WHEREAS the provincial government did not consult the users of the program or the providers before announcing plans to eliminate 44 of the 49 dentists, nurses and assistants providing this service; and

WHEREAS preventative health care is an essential component of health care reform. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 1993-94 budget. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 225-- The Health Reform Accountability Act Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Madam Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis), that Bill 225, The Health Reform Accountability Act;

Loi sur I' obligation redditionnelle en matiere de reforme de

3289 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 25, 1993 Ia sante, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Chomlak: Madam Deputy Speaker, it is a great pleasure and honour to stand in this House and discuss The Health Reform Accountability Act, something that I am sure all members of this House will join us in the New Democratic Party in supporting. It is something long overdue in this jurisdiction, concerning the so-called health reform of this government. The bill itself will contain four major components. Firstly, it will require the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) to table quarterly reports in the Legislature that outline the major co mponents of the government's attempt at health care reform and its status, Madam Deputy Speaker. This would include the number of beds closed, alternatives in place, et cetera. Secondly, Madam Deputy Speaker, within 30 days of proclamation of the bill, the minister would have to hold public meetings to allow for a public input into the health reform process. The first four of these eight meetings would be held in Winnipeg, and four would be scheduled outside of Winnipeg.

Thirdly, once annually, Madam Deputy Speaker, each health care institution would be required to hold public meetings to discuss their reform and the process that is occurring in the public. Fourthly, the Ombudsman's office or another third party would be given the responsibility to inquire into

an act as an advocate and to deal with matters on a third party basis of health care reform when many individuals feel wronged or aggrieved by actions of this government or by the Ministry of Health. They would have a forum and a body to appeal to in respect of this decision. Those are the major four components of The Health Reform Accountability Act, Madam Deputy Speaker, something I think would be welcomed by all Manitobans as an opportunity to provide both input and a dialogue with respect to health reform. Thank you. Motion agreed to. •

(1335) Introduction of Guests Madam Deputy Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw all honourable members' attention to the public gallery, where we have with us this afternoon, sixty-five Grade 5 students from Shamrock School. These students are under the direction of Ms. Sheila Wiebe. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer). Additionally with us this afternoon, we have twenty Grade 5 students from William Whyte School. These students are under the direction of Ms. Rebecca Ehnes.

This school is located in the constituency of the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Provincial Parks Policing Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is for the Premier. Madam Deputy Speaker, in 1988 a survey of all park users indicated that approximately 8. 7 percent of people utilizing the parks felt that rowdiness was a significant problem dealing with our provincial parks.

This weekend, there have been a number of incidents reported publicly and privately to, I am sure, all members of this Legislature, dealing with the provincial parks. Madam Deputy Speaker, one weekend does not a park policy make, but given the fact that on Friday the minister indicated that they were using, quote, smarter means to control the situation in our provincial parks, can the Premier outline to us the reasons for this major increase in rowdiness in our provincial parks and the strategy to deal with it? Hon.

Gary Fllmon (Premier): I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), Madam Deputy Speaker. Mr. Doer: I am a little disappointed to see that this is such a low priority for the Premier, because it was the Premier as the head of Treasury Board that cut the staffing by 62 positions in the 1991-92 budget. Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please . Point of Order Mr. Fllmon: Madam Deputy Speaker, I did not say that it was a low priority with this government. In fact, if the Leader of the Opposition wants that question

May 25, 1993 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 3290 answered, he should ask it of the Minister of Natural Resources, not the Premier. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On the same point of order, our rules are fairly clear that opposition members may ask questions to anyone they may request. It is the government that decides who answers. If the Premier decides not to answer and to take questions as notice, that is his prerogative, but the bottom line, according to our rules, is that members may ask questions as they see fit and the government may decide.

I would suggest in that regard that perhaps the Minister of Natural Resources may wish to answer the question. Madam Deputy Speaker: The honourable First Minister did not have a point of order. It was a dispute over the facts. •

(1340) Provincial Parks Staffing Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My second question is to the head of government across the way, Madam Deputy Speaker, that made the decision when head of Treasury Board to cut staffing in the Department of Natural Resources by some 21 percent, the lowest priority in government, obviously, with the decisions that they made. The second lowest priority was the community colleges in the same year, in terms of government spending.

The minister has now indicated that the lack of staffing may have to be augmented by the utilization of RCMP officers, in terms of provincial parks. People in Manitoba are very concerned about crime and very concerned about enforcement of crime. How is it cost-effective to have RCM police to make up for the staffing cuts that this Premier made in the provincial parks in the 1991-9 2 fiscal year? Hon.

Ha rry En ns (Min ister of Natural Resources): Madam Deputy Speaker, with respect to the staffing question that the Leader of the Opposition raises, let me assure the honourable member that the substantial portion of the staffing cuts that he alludes to, which in fact took place, were going back to the practice that had been there previously and worked well for many years, that is, staggered work hours for our Parks employees. There are no riots, no rowdyism in our parks in the months of November, December, January and February, so that represents the standard.

There was no reduction in personnel within our Parks system. In fact, this particular weekend, because of past experience, my department added staff to these locations in all instances. [interjection] Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, I tend to agree with the honourable Leader of the Opposition that one rowdy weekend should not make policy, but there is a problem, and we have tried different things in the past. We have had kind of a voluntary restriction on the use of alcohol back in the early '80s. It did not work particularly well. It is difficult to enforce.

Certainly what happened this past weekend is of concern to all of us, and senior officials within the Department of Natural Resources are meeting this afternoon to assess the whole situation and to make some further recommendations to me as minister . Policing Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): In 1988, the last public survey of park users dealing with the, quote, rowdiness problem, had a number of significant perceptions from the people who were surveyed. Twenty percent felt that stricter enforcement was necessary in the provincial parks.

Thirty-two percent, the highest number, felt that more patrols were necessary. Madam Deputy Speaker, 5.9 percent felt that a ban on alcohol on some weekends would be desirable and 5.4 percent said a ban on alcohol on all weekends would be desirable, and then there were other recommen­ dations to the government. Madam Deputy Speaker, the people we have talked to in the Parks feel they are understaffed, and they cannot provide the enforcement levels that are necessary for those provincial parks, contrary to the government's statement today.

I would like to ask the minister: What will the strategy be for dealing with rowdiness in the provincial parks, and will he consider the opinion of the public, the utilizing public of the provincial parks in Manitoba? The beauty of our provincial parks and the quality of our provincial parks surely must go hand in hand with the kind of comfort and safety that most Manitobans would desire for our provincial park system. •

(1345) 3291 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 25, 1993 Hon. Har ry En ns (Min ister of Na tur al Resources): Madam Deputy Speaker, I can only assure the honourable Leader of the Opposition that all issues will be examined. I am told, although somewhere along the line I skipped that generation, that at another time, Clear Lake and the Riding Mountain National Park was a favourite haunt for a generation of youngsters to initiate the rites of spring. I might say that the federal govern ment's response was to impose a total ban on liquor in the Riding Mountain National Park.

I am just suggesting to the honourable Leader of the Opposition that I will entertain all suggestions from staff and from past public surveys as to what we can do. We do have the opportunity, within the Department of Natural Resources, just as we do when faced with emergency forest fire situations, to move staff around. We have history that indicates particular weekends being the heaviest call on our park and campground facilities. I will ask the department to facilitate to the extent possible the added supervision that obviously we would like to bring to bear on this situation.

Health Care System Reform Rural Manitoba Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Madam Deputy Speaker, under the minister's direction, hundreds of hospital beds in Winnipeg have been closed. Hundreds of workers have been laid off, and a multimillion dollar consultant has been brought in to try to salvage what is left of the minister's health reform plan. Now, apparently, the minister has announced that, contrary to what is stated in his plan, health reform in rural Manitoba will now be delayed two years until after the next provincial election.

Can the minister confirm and outline what the plan is for his so-called health reform in rural Manitoba now? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Madam Deputy Speaker, again, with regret, I have to point out a factual inaccuracy in my honourable friend's

preamble. My honourable friend indicates that I have said reform of the rural health care system will be delayed 12 to 24 months. That was a report emanating from-we are not exactly sure-­ western Manitoba, allegedly, by some reporter. Maybe my honourable friend had something to do with that statement. I do not know. Madam Deputy Speaker, my honourable friend, as I said, is factually in error and, again, has relied on his most common research vehicle, the rumour mill, to pose questions in this House. Mr. Chomlak: Madam Deputy Speaker, can the minister confirm that his

schedule is on

schedule with respect to his Health Action Plan? Is he continuing to close the 200 beds in rural Manitoba, as he announced, by '93-94? Will he table an update of that plan, if it is not, in fact, the case? Mr. Orchard: Madam Deputy Speaker, with as much regret as I can muster, my honourable friend is factually inaccurate again in his

preamble. My honourable friend has stated that we were going to close 200 beds in rural Manitoba, according to the Health Action Plan, as tabled May 14, last year. My honourable friend might revisit that section. He will find that is not the intent. It will be a refocus of the use of up to 200 beds, some of which will be used for repatriation of patients from Winnipeg, where they have received care, to care closer to home, which is a fundamental underpinning principle of reform of the health care system. We, unlike the NDP, are trying to build services in rural Manitoba.

We are trying to build services in northern Manitoba instead of the constant reliance that grew through 14 years of previous administrations' efforts at centralizing health care to the city of Winnipeg. Psychiatric Bed Closures Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Madam Deputy Speaker, I am sure patients in lineups will be happy to know they are being repatriated rather than waiting in line. My final supplementary to the minister is: Will the minister assure this House, since beds at St.

Boniface were supposed to be closed last week, psychiatric beds, that no more beds will be closed until the community services are put in place prior to the closing of the beds? •

(1350) Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Madam Deputy Speaker, my honourable friend has finally asked a question without inaccurate

preamble.

May 25, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA 3292 Let me indicate to my honourable friend that the St. Boniface acute psychiatric beds were retired from service Friday, May 21. Some 24 were retired from service. Here are the communi ty­ pnterjection] Madam Deputy Speaker, maybe my honourable friends the New Democrats have all the answers, but I doubt they do. The community alternatives which have been implemented include the six additional Salvation Army Crisis Stabilization beds which have been in place for the past month.

Eleven members of the Mobile Crisis Team have been recruited, trained and began work Monday last. That is now a crisis stabilization team that is now operating longer hours, more days, with more people in service. The new Mobile Crisis phone numbers are in place, and they are 946-9109 and 946-9113. Intensive Case Management group: Members are in place to handle cases resulting from the St. Boniface closures. The Sara Riel Crisis Stabilization Unit: The building has been identified and is now in the process of reserving for in-service.

Madam Deputy Speaker, these are community-based services that are in place prior to the closure of those St. Boniface beds. That is why I say from time to time, my honourable friend gives me an opportunity to put facts on the record, not the rumour-mill rhetoric that my honourable friend always brings to this House, inaccurately, I might add, Madam Deputy Speaker. Health Care System Reform Public Consultations Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Madam Deputy Speaker, the Winnipeg Sun had an

article by James O'Connor in which an individual indicated that her father had died because of cutbacks. It was denied by the hospital. The reply was that lines outside operating rooms have not grown much, the implication clearly there that they have grown some. Today in my mail I received a letter from another individual-! am prepared to table this letter-in which he asserts that his mother died due to the provincial government's underfunding of our health care system.

This is happening more and more frequently, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I think that it is time that the government did what we have been begging them to do since the health reform package was presented. When will this government finally begin to debate and to discuss in an open and public process, the means by which they are engaging in health care reform? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Madam Deputy Speaker, my honourable friend refers to an

article that appeared in the Winnipeg Sun. If I have the same

article and the same circumstances in memory, the individual was not on a waiting list for any kind of heart surgery at the St. Boniface General Hospital. That, of course, would have one question as to why the allegations around this event were raised. I have no doubt that there is a great deal of stress within the family in terms of the circumstances of a tragic loss.

Madam Deputy Speaker, even the recently tabled Fraser Institute report said there has been a greater improvement in terms of management and length of the waiting list and access to open-heart surgery and heart surgical procedures in Manitoba than any other province since their previous review some two years ago. Those are some of the positive results that are happening. Much work has to be done in terms of making our health care system work effectively and appropriately to serve the health care needs of Manitobans.

Madam Deputy Speaker, with regret, I have to reject my honourable friend's use of this particular circumstance to try and in some way illustrate that the process of change is not working, because in this circumstance I do not believe the accusation of fault was an appropriate one. Mrs. Carstalrs: Madam Deputy Speaker, the minister simply does not get it. The reality is that it does not matter what he is doing, the public does not believe him. They do not believe that the reform process is taking place like he tells them it is taking place.

The time has come for him to be much more open with the public so that we do not get letters like the one I just tabled indicating that an individual honestly believes that his mother died because there have been cutbacks. If those cutbacks do not exist, then the minister has a responsibility to explain that. When is he going to start to explain his own health reform policy? Mr. Orchard: Madam Deputy Speaker, I explain our health care reform policy in this House almost every Question Period without fail. I explain it at invitations

3293 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA May 25, 1993 to speak to varying groups both inside the province of Manitoba and outside the province of Manitoba. Madam Deputy Speaker, the reason for the confusion is some of the language my honourable friend, from time to time, may use inadvertently. How do you call a 38 percent increase in funding to health care, from $12 billion in 1988 when we came into government defeating a budget -which we subsequently increased the budget of Health-- and now it ranges $1.86 billion, a 38 percent increase, all areas of the ministry increased and increased substantially.

How does my honourable friend square that with cutback? That is the problem that Health ministers across the length and breadth of Canada have today­ opposition members and others who persist in using the language of cutbacks, when in fact every single ministry from Newfoundland to British Columbia has probably poured the same 38 percent increase over a five-budget period of time into health care, and are now coming to grips with managing that system better to ass ure its int egrity, to assure its preservation, to assure that it is there to serve the people when they need that health care system. •

(1355) Mrs. Carstalrs: Madam Deputy Speaker, the Liberal Party has supported the health reform package since the minister announced it. There is no question about that, but we have asked him to please explain things to the people, and challenging the way we ask our questions is not explaining to the people of this province that their health care system is not in jeopardy, and they believe, rightly or wrongly, that it is. Will the Minister of Health explain this simple statement by Jack Litvack: "Lines outside operating rooms haven't grown much .. ." What does he mean by "muchw? Mr.

Orchard: Madam Deputy Speaker, I would leave that explanation to the individual who made the statement. Madam Deputy Speaker, surely my honourable friend must beli eve that something worked appropriately when the waiting lists and length of time to access service in, for instance, cardiac surgery, has improved over the last three years, not gone down, as my honourable friend would have us believe.

I appreciate the support of the Liberal Party in attempting to support reform of the health care syst em, because clearly and unequivocally, Mini ster s of Health, whether they are New Democrats in British Columbia, or Liberals in Newfoundland, or Conservatives in Manitoba, agree that we have to make significant changes or else our system will not survive the 1990s, and all the disastrous predictions that my honourable friends are wont to make from time to time will come true. It is only with significant change that we can preserve and protect medicare as Canadians want us to do.

Now, that means not just me explaining what we are doing, because I do that every opportunity I get. From time to time, it would require the integrity of both opposition parties to explain what they would do, give us the good ideas, but we never hear that. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Beauchesne, Citation 417, is very clear, Madam Deputy Speaker: "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." I would suggest to you that the minister has broken all three of those provisions or rules.

I would like to ask you to call him to order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Madam Deputy Speaker: The honourable minister had concluded his remarks. Aboriginal Justice Inquiry Report Government Action Plan Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas): My questions are directed to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). Madam Deputy Speaker, when the AJI report was completed almost two years ago, and delivered to this government, Manitobans rightfully had high expectations that the government would live up to their promises of action on the report.

Instead, what we have seen since has been a series of excuses and minor adjustments, mostly adjustments that would have occurred anyway, whether the AJI happened or not. The government, through its ministry, told us one day in this House that it was working on this issue harder than anything else it was working on.

May25, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 3294 I would like to know, Madam Deputy Speaker, when this Premier and his government will be releasing, finally, the action plan on the AJI, as far as implementation plans go. Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Madam Deputy Speaker, that is a question which more properly should be responded to by the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), but I can tell the member opposite that a good deal of work and effort has been put into implementing as many of the recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry as could be done, and many of the initiatives have been undertaken.

Many of the recommendations have been followed. A commitment of over a million dollars has been made for the second year in a row to the implementation phase and work is progressing. I will take the remainder of that question as notice so that a complete update can be given by the Minister of Justice when he returns to the House. *

(1400) Aboriginal Policing Services Negotiations Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas): Madam Deputy Speaker, this government has shown their support to the AJI all right when they have cut the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs of their funding. Why has this government not agreed to negotiate with the federal government and the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs to increase on-reserve policing by way of those federal-provincial AMC agreements? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Madam Deputy Speaker, again, we are one of the leading provinces in the nation with respect to aboriginal policing and justice initiatives in a variety of ways.

I will take the remainder of that question as notice again on behalf of the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), so he can give a more full and complete response as to all of the things that are underway with respect to that issue. Aboriginal Justice Inquiry Report Analysis Tabling Request Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas): Madam Deputy Speaker, my final question is again to the First Minister.

Is the Premier and his government finally ready to table in the House the government study and analysis of all of those 306 AJI recommendations, so that Manitobans can see for themselves what it is that has stopped this government from acting on the report? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Madam Deputy Speaker, this government has been implementing many of the recommendations and many of the initiatives contained within the AJI. This government has committed each of the last two years more than a million dollars toward that implementation phase.

This government has been meeting with people throughout the community and with the aboriginal community. I have participated in some of the meetings, so has the Minister of Native Affairs and Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) in our government, as well as the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), as well as many others of our ministers. The process is ongoing, and I would just say that this information will be brought back by the Minister of Justice to the satisfaction, I am sure, of the member for The Pas. Grow Bond Program Status Report Mr.

Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Madam Deputy Speaker, when it comes to economic initiatives, whether it is the Industrial Opportunities Program or negotiations with groups like Repap or Ontario Hydro, this government has been a disappointing failure, I think, for most Manitobans.

Three years ago, when the government announced the formation of the Grow Bonds concept and approximately a year later, some two years ago, when the government introduced Grow Bonds legislation, we were promised in a glowing press release that the Grow Bonds corporations would be creating hundreds of jobs in Manitoba and thatthe province was putting aside some $10 million for the program.

Madam Deputy Speaker, my question to the acting Minister of Rural Development is: Can the minister indicate how many Grow Bonds corporations are currently operating and how much of the $10 million has currently been assigned as part of the guarantee under that program? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Energy and Mines): Madam Deputy Speaker, I will take that question as notice, unless the member wants to repeat the question for the member. Mr. Storie: Madam Deputy Speaker, you can imagine my relief at seeing someone who may actually be able to answer a question.

3295 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA May 25, 1993 Madam Deputy Speaker, my question to the Minister of Rural Development is: Why, after two years, is the Grow Bonds corporation being roundly criticized and condemned amongst economic development groups across the province? Can he tell this House how much of the $10 million that was committed as part of the guarantee has been committed under the program and how many Grow Bonds corporations that represents? Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Madam Deputy Speaker, I can indicate to my honourable friend that over the last year we have had a number of initiatives that have been undertaken under the Grow Bonds program. Indeed, we have to date four proposals which have come before us and have been approved for sale of Grow Bonds, and that is over the course of a year.

It is a new program to this province and the four projects I think would-1 cannot give the exact number of dollars that would be generated by the projects, but, Madam Deputy Speaker, I know that we have about four different proposals that are being worked on right now that show very good promise. Madam Deputy Speaker, we have to assure the members of the House that it is communities that come together to form bond corporations and projects come forward from communities, not from government. It is the Grow Bonds corporation staff that are out there working with communities to ensure that projects do come forward.

Indeed the money is there. In all four projects we have shown that the investment is ready as long as we have the projects coming forward. Failure Rate Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Madam Deputy Speaker, back in 1991 the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) was promising us that there would be dozens of projects approved under the Grow Bonds corporation. Two years later, the minister says- Madam Dep uty Speaker: Order. Does the honourable member have a question? Mr. Storie: Madam Deputy Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Rural Development.

Can the minister explain why 50 percent of the projects that have thus far been approved have failed, that projects approved for Selkirk and projects approved for Portage Ia Prairie have failed?-50 percent failure rate in a very limited program. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Mi nister of Rural Development): Madam Deputy Speaker, as a matter of fact, the Grow Bonds proposal that the member refers to is one and the same. He is talking about the Sunnex project, which is not dead for that matter.

Indeed the Grow Bonds corporation that was formed in Portage Ia Prairie for the purpose of supporting the project chose not to go ahead with the project. It was not the project that failed, nor was it our withdrawal of the approval for the project. It was the proposal in Portage and Indeed it was the Grow Bonds corporation there that decided not to go ahead with the project. Review Mr.

Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Madam Deputy Speaker, given the fiasco that the Sunnex Grow Bond proposal has turned into-and the minister has suggested there may be a review, In fact, of the program and the management of the program-will the minister now agree to have a review of the program and the difficulties the program is having in creating the kinds of economic opportunities that rural Manitobans had hoped for? Will he review this program? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Madam Deputy Speaker, the Grow Bonds Program itself is one that is working.

We want to ensure when we do a review of the proposals that come before us that each and every proposal is going to be one that is going to be viable and is going to have economic benefit for the province. That is why we have addressed the entire issue of Grow Bonds in a very careful way. The member talks about the Sunnex proposal, and the proposal itself is not one we have rejected. It is one we approved, but it is up to the Grow Bonds corporation within a community to decide whether or not they will go ahead with the proposal. In the Portage Ia Prairie case, they have decided not to go ahead with it.

That has nothing to do with whether or not we as a province approve or do not approve of that project. Provincial Parks Policing Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): My question is to the Minister of Natural Resources.

May 25, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 3296 In the minister's own words today, quote: Every year, we have partying, drunks and the odd assault. On May 7, the minister issued a press release indicating that whether you enjoy camping for a weekend or just a day trip for relaxation, Manitoba has a variety of great parks for you to discover. I encourage everyone to take the time to explore our rich, natural heritage-words which I heartily agree with, actions which bear out a different story.

My question to the minister: If he knew that this type of hooliganism, as he says, occurred in our parks every year, why was he unable to better control the situation which resulted in assaults and sexual assaults around the province, at least 20 beatings putting at least two individuals in hospitals with knife wounds? Why was this minister not able to better control the situation, and was it as a result of the cutbacks in his own department? • (141 0) Hon. Har ry En ns (Min ister of Na tural Resources): Madam Deputy Speaker, some 60,000 to 70,000 youngsters enjoyed themselves in our parks and acted responsibly.

I regret, as I am sure do many of their fellow campers, that a relatively small number chose to act irresponsibly, but I ask that honourable members appreciate the problem that this poses for the officials, you know, the parks. In effect, you are putting communities of 40,000 or 50,000 people in one place, and I suspect you get the same averaging out of people who choose to abuse that opportunity. I want to assure the member for St. James, as I assured the Leader of the official opposition (Mr.

Doer), that it is precisely because we have had, regrettably, a history of some difficulty in the past that we in fact beefed up our complement in these locations during this particular weekend. Liquor Control Act Amendments Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): I hope the minister has filed his registration form to vote, Madam Deputy Speaker. [interjection) It is in the mail. He is calling me the leader already. Madam Deputy Speaker, the minister talks as if­ and I do not mean that he intended any of this­ there is a certain amount of acceptable violence in our parks.

He says, you get 40,000 or 50,000 people together, it is going to happen. Well, it should not happen. We know it happens every year. My question for the minister, Madam Deputy Speaker: Did he meet with his colleague the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) in anticipation of the problems of this weekend, to look at amendments to The Liquor Control Act that could be brought in to control this situation, to better give his officers, his increasingly shrinking number of officers, a better opportunity to stop this type of hooliganism, a lot of which has to do with alcohol abuse? Hon.

Harr y En ns (Mini ster of Na tural Resources): Madam Deputy Speaker, to refute the last question first, the number of natural resources officers has increased in the last 18 months. Firstly, a special SWAT team, as I have dubbed it, has been put in to help reduce the illegal poaching, and we are currently in the process of filling an additional five positions of natural resources officers . Madam Deputy Speaker, there are a number of issues that the Parks Branch will examine.

Friday night, as per example, when the occupancy rate of these same facilities was at 80 percent rather than the maximum, we had a relatively quiet night. When we were to full 100 percent occupancy, we had difficulty. Now whether or not that had anything to do with it, we will take a look at it. As for the initial aside, I have to answer to the honourable member, that I have given my firm and unswerving support to his opponent in the Liberal leadershi p campaign. I believe that Kevin Lamoureux would make a great leader of the Liberal Party. Once I commit myself, I commit myself, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Provincial Park Lands Act Amendments Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): The honourable minister's change of heart hurts me greatly, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a big loss. My final question for the minister: When is this minister going to table the long-awaited new parks act which he has threatened to table since last fall? When is he going to table that legislation? Will that legislation include better controls on this type of hooliganism and put more power and better penalties into the hands of his officers with respect to these problems?

3297 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 1993 Hon. Ha rry Enn s (Mini ster of Natural Resources): The member raises a very important issue. Yes, indeed, it is my hope that I will be able to present for first reading, the new Park Lands Act. I was hoping to do it today, but I may do it tomorrow. To the specific question,

whereas under the present regime, that kind of authority is more by tradition or by ministerial policy, there will be very specific clauses enabling the Parks Branch and the appropriate minister to respond to situations that trouble us all today. Consumers' Association of Canada Government Funding Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Deputy Speaker, this government listens only to their friends and each week that is becoming more clear to us. Students on social allowance, daycares, the Manitoba League of the Physically Handicapped, foster families, and aboriginal organizations have all seen their funding eliminated.

One lobby group, however, the lobby group supporting th is government, the Consumers' Association of Manitoba, on Friday, last Friday, got a grant of over $35,000. My question to the Premier is this: Why does this lobby group rate higher than foster families, students, handicapped organizations and aboriginal groups to this Premier? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Madam Deputy Speaker, the Consumers' Association of Canada, Manitoba branch, has long provided a very valuable service by-{interjection) It was supported by the New Democratic administration.

They provide a nonpartisan objective analysis of the presentations that are made before the Public Utilities Board by the various utilities; they have worked together with the Manitoba Society of Seniors, with many other public organizations. They supply research, they supply information to make-[interjection) Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Fllmon: Madam Deputy Speaker, the members opposite do not want to hear the answer, so I will sit down. Arnl Thorstelnson Provincial Audit- Terms of Reference Mr.

Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Deputy Speaker, my supplementary to the same minister, and perhaps I will now ask him: Will the Premier table today the terms of reference of the request that he is making to the Provincial Auditor, to investigate the delays of this government in seizing the rental payments of the Tory fundraiser? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Madam Deputy Speaker, I sent a letter of request to the Provincial Auditor-1 believe it was Friday morning-and giving broad terms of reference to the Provincial Auditor, to look in any matter that she so chooses with respect to this issue. Mr.

Maloway: Madam Deputy Speaker, well, my question was: Would he release the terms of reference? Will he show us a copy of the letter? Since the fundraiser collected over a million dollars in rental payments during this period, will he ask the Auditor to investigate why Arni Thorsteinson was allowed to take the rental payments when he was not making the mortgage payments? Mr. Man ness: Madam Deputy Speaker, I would ask the member to accept my word that I have sent a letter requesting and allowing the Provincial Auditor to look at all elements and aspects.

If the members wish me to table that letter, I will do so tomorrow. •

(1420) Winkler Area Farms Irrigation Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): One of the concerns with the Assiniboine diversion project, is that the water from the Assiniboine is being diverted to the Winkler area, to allow expanded irrigation, that it will indeed allow expanded irrigation because the potable water will be used for municipal use, which will allow the existing aquifer to be used for depleting the water for irrigation. My question is for the Minister of Environment.

With the new irrigation licence issued for the regional farms in that area, what is the expected increase of the aquifer water for irrigation? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Madam Deputy Speaker, let me first of all address the

preamble. I hope the member is mistaken in her statement that water being proposed to be dealt with in this request can somehow be diverted for irrigation, because the proposal, as I understand it, is for treated water. As a farmer myself, I think that would be a very impractical approach.

May 25, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 3298 Madam Deputy Speaker: The time allocated for Question Period has expired. Nonpoliti cal Statement Madam Deputy Speaker: Does the honourable member for Swan River have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Deputy Speaker, I rise today to recognize the Swan River Youth Justice Committee which on May 18 held a dinner in recognition of 1 0 years of service to the community. The dinner was to recognize many early board members, four of them who are still in the community, for the work they have done.

I think it is very important that we recognize this committee that goes about the community very quietly doing its work, not looking for any great publicity of what it is doing but doing some very important work. As I said, four of the original members are still in the community. Only one was able to attend that meeting, and that was Staff Sergeant Dominato. Madam Deputy Speaker, the committee came into existence in February of 1983. They were organized to serve, and by May that same year, they had their first constitution.

The committee provides an opportunity for concerned citizens to participate with offenders in the criminal justice system. They are aware of local problems and are aware of local resources to come up with a solution. Over the years, there have been many young people who have committed some of the less serious offences and have been able to participate in alternate measures. This gives an opportunity to young peop le to participate, to accept the responsibility of their illegal actions and to make up for their wrongdoing.

One of the functions of the Youth Justice Committee is to mediate between the victims and offenders and assist in making arrangements for offenders to make compensation to victims, either by cash or personal service. Madam Deputy Speaker, there are many other activities going on in the Swan River community that this committee is working with. That is a students' peer group, which has been very effective in the community. I want to recognize those people who have devoted so unselfishly of their time to help these young people correct their errors, pay their dues and correct their ways in the community.

Madam Deputy Speaker, there are many people in the community who have given of themselves unselfishly. I congratulate them on their work. In the words of one of the members, they said, perhaps through all of this work and the peer groups, we will not need youth justice committees in the future. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Madam Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Downey), that Madam Deputy Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Education and Training; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for Executive Council. *

(1430) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent sections) EDUCATION AND TRAINING Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Good afternoon. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, wi ll resume consideration of the Estimates of Education and Training. When the committee last sat it had been considering item 1.( c)(1) on page 34 of the Estimates book. Mr.

John Plohman (Dauphin): I wanted to give notice to the minister that in order that we will not have to perhaps wait once we get to the support for publi c schools th at we will be wanting the breakdown of all of the funding for each of the school divisions, the increase or decrease that was announced by the minister in mid-Fe bruary and the impact of decisions taken as a result of Bill 16 which of course has not passed the Legislature but which has governed the practice and conduct of the school divisions to a great extent, I believe, this spring in budget decisions.

To the extent that the minister has that information at the time we get to that line in the Estimates, I just

3299 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 1993 wanted the minister to be aware that we will be wanting that breakdown for each of the school divisions. The Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) seems to believe that there is a limit to the

preamble in the committee and that is a departure from traditional practice and perhaps something that the minister should be aware of before he starts determining when he thinks questions should be asked, because it simply delays matters and slows down the process rather than speeds it up. I wanted to, just before I get onto another major item, ask the minister whether it is her policy, I guess, since we are dealing with Planning and Policy Development, whether it is her intention to speak to the student rally tomorrow? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I have had some opportunity to discuss the intention of the student rally with the organizers and to talk with them about what they hope to achieve, and they have asked that I will be available to be present and I have told them that I will. Mr. Plohman: I want to ask the minister a few questions about th e issue of Francophone governance. Yes, it is an important matter.

The Bill 34 which the minister introduced, I think last Wednesday last week the minister moved second reading and spoke on the bill, and I wanted to ask a few questions about the bill and the policy behind the bill prior to our moving forward in this particular area. The minister has taken the position with regard to French language governance that she should have a dual system of French language first instruction in the province, and I wonder whether the minister could explain the rationale behind that.

It is an implementation of the Supreme Court decision which is necessary to do as we all understand it, and we understand that there might be significant costs involved. Unfortunately, when the minister was unable to be present on Friday-and I just mention this for her edification because she was not there to hear the questions-! did ask about the potential trans­ ference of grant money from existing school divisions to the Francophone division and school board. I want to explore that a bit with the minister here today.

In addition to that, there is the issue of how the instruction will be offered, and it has cost implications as well. I wonder if the minister could give us some background on arriving at this aspect of her policy. There are many aspects to this, and it is obviously a very large policy issue, but it does involve some particular policy decisions that the minister would have had to have made. So I want to ask the minister on that basis why she has proceeded with the proposal that would see duplicate French language instruction in schools insofar as programming is concerned. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order.

It will just be one minute, please. Or der, please. I would like to advise the co mmittee that the lin e of questioning the honourable member is bringing forward does not really fall under line 1.(c)(1) which is Planning and Policy Development. It does fall under legislation which is before the House at this time. I would ask the honourable member to either rephrase the question, but it will be up to the minister whether she cares to respond to the questions put by the member. Point of Order Ho n. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I fully agree with your comments that this matter is legislation that is before the House. There is a book of Estimates which you are dealing with, a specific line which does not include what is now being questioned on, and I think your ruling is correct. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: I thank the honourable minister for his comments. *** Mr. Plohman: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I realize that it is up to the minister at any time to determine whether she wants to answer the question or not. That is not a newfound right that the Chairperson has identified here.

In all cases, the minister can either decide to answer, to give another answer which quite often happens, to talk about the topic of discussion or perhaps not to answer at all. This happens frequently. *

(1440) May 25, 1993 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 3300 What I am asking about is the policy of the minister with regard to this aspect. We can put the bill aside. I asked the minister her policy and her rationale for her policy. Obviously, she has had to determine this policy with consultation with her officials in the bureau and also the senior officials in the department and arrive at a position, so we have a question dealing with the minister's policy as it applies te>-and perhaps identified in the booklet that was distributed by the minister.

Of course, that is within the purview of this committee, something that should be discussed contrary to what the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) has stated in his remarks. He is obviously not aware of the extent of the issue, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. Quite aside from the legislation that is before them, we have a book called: Francophone Schools Governance. The minister has put that out to the public.

One of the policies that the minister has identified is a provision that would allow for French language first instruction, both within the Franco­ phone division and within existing divisions-in other words, a parallel French language first instruction. I ask the minister if indeed that is her policy and what her rationale is for that parallel policy. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Dep uty Chairperson, the issue of the creation of the Francophone school division is before the House in legislation. It will be fully discussed and debated as it progresses through second reading and on to committee.

Its background is likely very well known to the member. The issue of Francophone governance and the right of the Francophone minority, in this case, for governance of their own schools flows from a

section of the Charter of Rights. In addition, it flows also from a Supreme Court decision. So the right flows, one, from a leg islative documen t, or a document which we refer to as legisl ators, and then, in addition, it also refers to law within the court, a judgment of the Supreme Court of Canada. In complying with the Mahe ruling and reflecting upon what has been required in the Charter of Rights, on behalf of

Section 23 people, Manitoba has decided on a form to ensure that the Franco­ phone minority, in this case, will have governance over their schools. The court did not tell Manitoba or any other province who would be covered-because it is a Supreme Court decision and therefore applies across Canada-exactly how this system of Francophone governance was to be implemen ted. It was up to the provinces to determine the way that they would implement it best for their province and would allow provinces to give consideration to their own regional differences and the regional needs of their particular province.

It is with that background consideration that Manitoba developed their system of Francophone governance. We cert ainly look to respect the ruling of the Supreme Court of Canada. We also recognize the

Section 23 portion of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. As a result of that, Manitoba has arrived at its parti cular mechanism for Francophone governance, the provision of a Francophone school board. Further to that, we can discuss during the debate of the legislation, but I believe that provides the background to the member in terms of where the direction to create such a school board flows from. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, we do have the unique opportu nity to discuss all aspects of policy of this minister at this particular time in her Estimates and happens, coincidentally, to occur just when the bill is before the House. The two issues and happenings are independent, of course, but happen to be occurring at the same time and provide us with a unique opportu nity to discuss aspects of a policy that is reflected in a bill. That policy, of course, had to be developed by the minister, so I think it is quite appropriate to explore that as far as necessary at this particular time.

The minister has given some background on why she has proceeded with legisl ation. However, in discussions with her policy staff, she has obviously had to make a number of policy decisions. I just want to ask the minister whether she has consulted extensively in arriving at this, at her position, and with whom? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I will remind the member that when the decision of the Mahe case was handed down, Manitoba's response was to set up a committee, the Gallant committee on Francophone governance. That committee was a representative committee.

It did look at the issues, and it did provide govern­ ment with a great deal of information in terms of

3301 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA May 25, 1993 issues to look at in setting up the model of Francophone governance in Manitoba. Mr. Plohman: Following that committee, has the minister acted on those recommendations, or have there been additional policy areas that have been developed since the Gallant report? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Dep uty Chair person, the member, I am sure, has had an opportunity to look at the Gallant report and to also look at the bill and to see a great deal of what was recommended by the Gallant report reflected in the bill.

In addition, we also had another case which was before the Supreme Court of Canada. The decision was handed down in December. We also were able to look at what that decision stated and to then determine how Manitoba would proceed in setting up a system of Francophone governance. Mr. Plohman: Could the mini ster provide the com mit tee with the total numb er of students potentially served by a Francophone school board in Manitoba? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we believe the num ber will be in the range of 4,000 to 6,000 students. Mr. Plohman: I thank the minister for that.

Is the mi nister saying then that the 7, 10 1 stude nts identified in the Gallant report is not the figure that is being used? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the figure I gave the member is an estimated figure, and that was what he asked for. In terms of a more detailed figure, we might get to that when we are discussing the bill in more detail, or perhaps when we are at the

section of my department which deals more specifically with the education of Francophones and French immersion and other assistance in terms of French language services. However, we will only know the exact number of students who wish to be educated, whose families wish them to be educated in the Francophone division, when those parents have in fact indicated that they wish to enroll their child or children within the Francophone system. So that number, in terms of its total accuracy, will not be known until the implemen tation committee has had its opportunity to complete its work. * (1 450) Mr. Plohman: Is the min ister saying that the implemen tation committee is on

schedule at the present time, and what is the date that she expects that to be in? Mrs. Vodrey: The implemen tation committee has had, I believe it is, two meetings to this date. The implemen tation committee now has to do the work with the communities within Manitoba. They will be setting up the times that they will be able to go into those communi ties, provide the information that is required, and look at the registration process, because we would like to have, of course, the legislation passed at the end of this session.

With the legislation passed, we will then be able to conduct the elections for the regional committees. Following that, the regional committees will then be able to name their member to the board of trustees. We know that whole system of regional committees and trustees will have a great deal of work to do over the next year, so we certainly look for this to be done within the time frame that has been set out, which will allow us to proceed with those elections within the fall of '93. Mr. Plohman: So then the minister is expecting the Monnin Committee to report its findings prior to the fall.

I notice the minister talks about October 1, '93, as the implemen tation committee identifies which franqais pr ograms to be transferred to the Francophone school division. Is there any additional information or preinformation that will be brought forward in report prior to October 1 ? Mrs. Vodrey: The implementation comm ittee will be in touch certainly with myself as minister as issues arise, if there are issues. We also expect to receive information from that committee about how the process of registration is proceeding, and so we look for ongoing information from the committee.

But the committee does have a large job to do, and we expect that they will be able to proceed with that job as quickly as possible. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, would the minister think that prior to the end of June, she would have a clarification on the number of students initially that would be transferred? Would she have that kind of definitive information, or would that not be till the fall? Mrs.

Vodrey: If the member is looking for the exact number of young people who would be registered in the Francophone division by the end of June of this year, I think it would be very difficult to provide him with that exact number.

May 25, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA 3302 We certainly look to have a fairly good estimation, and we hope that by the end of June to have a good idea, but we will have to see how the committee is able to do its work, how quickly the committee is able to do its work. We have certainly put forward a time frame, and I bslieve they will be starting with some of the areas which have been identified, and they may be able to very quickly have a sense of the numb ers of young people within some school communi ties who will register fairly quickly.

The n it may be as it moves on to other commu nities, the num bers may not occur as quickly, though again, we do look-and I have set this timetable forward from the very beginning-for the election of the regional committees and the trustees in the fall of '93. Mr. Plohman: So the figure of 4,000 to 6,000 is an estimate of what the minister anticipates being registered initially, or is this something over a longer period oftime? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this is an estimated figure.

We will have to wait until the committee has done its work and has worked within the commu nity and has provided the information that Manitobans will need to know regarding the operation of the Francophone governance system , the system of representation. I point to the direct and indirect election that will take place within the Francophone governance system which I know Manitobans will find important, and they will have to make sure that all of that is well understood. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, will the criteria for sufficient numb ers be the prevailing one insofar as which commu nities in the province would be initially included in the Francophone school division, and what would the sufficient numb ers be? Mrs. Vodrey : Mr. Dep uty Chair pers on, the member's question is somewhat difficult to interpret.

What we have said is that there are certain areas within Manitoba where the commu nity itself has said that those areas are very likely to wish to become a part of the Francophone system , and so the Monnin Comm ittee will be then working with those communities first of all, and we expect to have the numbers within those communities fairly soon. Then there are other parts of Manitoba in which the Monnin Comm ittee will then go out and provide information , but those com mu nities will know already that there are a number of families who have commit ted to sending their child in to the Francophone division.

The Monnin Committee will then be able to go into those other communi ties with that information and also the information contained within the booklet which describes very clearly what the goals of the Francophone governance system are. We understand from the community members and also from groups which we have been working with over the past year, 18 months, that this will really be a very important feature in terms of Manitobans un der stand ing the Francophone governance system. Mr.

Plohman: The minister has included in her policy book on Francophone school governance a map ofthe province, called Area of the Francophone School Division. Can the minister tell the committee what the purpose of that map is? Mrs. Vodrey: The map is to indicate primarily where a large portion of the Francophone community is at the moment existing within Manitoba, and also, as the member would know, in the creation of a new school division, we needed to look at what the area of the school division may potentially be, where those people, those families, may come from. All of this, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, is information which I believe we will be able to debate very fully in the process of bringing forward the legislation, where the member may have questions on this and where I will be pleased to provide him with very full and complete answers. Mr. Plohman: Well, the minister is talking about second reading, and the last time I asked her a qu estion on a bill, she refused to accept the question, so we cannot really have that. Of course, we have had second reading occur already, and the minister gave her speech at that time.

There is another opportunity to discuss this under French language governance in the Estimates. That is true. There is also the general Planning and Policy Development area of the department, which covers all the areas of policy, including French language go verna nce as well as Englis h lang uage governance. So I think the Chairperson can feel qu ite at ease to allow the discussion on this area to go forward. The minister has said that this map is here to show some of the extent of where the students for this division could come from. Is it not a fact, Mr.

3303 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 25, 1993 Deputy Chairperson, to the minister, that students could come from anywhere in the province of Manitoba if there were sufficient numbers and that the colours on this map do not really mean anything? * (1 500) Mrs. Vodrey: It is true that students may attend the Francophone division from other parts of the province other than in the shaded areas on the map.

The shaded areas on the map are there to Indicate, again, where there are known to be larger numb ers of the Francophone commu nity, parents who would be eligible to send their children to the Francophone division, to give some form to what the geography of the Francophone school division might look like. Mr. Plohman: So there is no particular meaning to the shaded areas, other than to give some indication-it is not what the minister envisages as the scope of the Francophone division. Mrs. Vodrey: The member is really moving away from issues of policy.

He is moving into detail now of how the area of the Francophone school division was determined. He is also moving into areas of looking at how Manitobans who live outside of the area of the school division may, in fact, be included within the school division or may choose to send their children into that school division while their geographical area may not be a part of the shaded area. He has certai nly moved away from policy questions. He has certainly moved into a very detailed discussion of the development of the bill. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson: I would like to remind honourable memb ers that we are moving toward line 3, which is the Bureau de !'education frangaise. I would ask the committee, if we are going to move , into that line, possibly to consider passing a number of the lines ahead of it to get down to that point. Mr. Plohman: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, for your helpful suggestion. However, it may be some time before we get to that line in the Estimates. We may have a substantial number of issues to raise as we go along to that process.

This is a very timely issue at the present time, one of policy the minister has actively worked on over the last while. I am sure she has spent a lot of time with her senior staff arriving at final positions on this that could be brought forward, and I might add that in the presentation of this policy booklet, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, is included, as a matter of policy, a map. It is the minister's policy, undoubtedly, that a map be included, because that is why it is in here. The qu estion I am asking is one of policy regarding the map.

Is it the minister's policy that the Francophone division be limited to the shaded areas on this map? If not, why has the map been included at all? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think the presence of the map is a visual way in which to describe the information which is currently in the bill. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister says this visually describes what is in the bill. The bill does not provide any of this information. We are dealing with a piece of policy here, a policy booklet by this minister.

She will give effect to policy through the bill, but the geographic area is not described in any way, shape or form in the bill. I ask the minister to just provide us with some information as to why the map was provided and if it is her policy that the provisions of policy on Francophone governance apply only to the shaded areas. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, let me answer again so the member perhaps this time will understand. There is an area that is noted on the map, and that notes where larger num bers of

Section 23 eligible Francophones would be currently living, areas where there are frangais schools operating and where we know, by census figures, where the concentration or the larger numb ers of Francophone Manitobans who hold these

Section 23 rights as parents on behalf of their children are currently living. However, I have said from the beginning, and this gov ernment has said from the beginning, Manitobans will have the opportunity, if Manitobans live outside of that shaded area and wish to have their child educated by the Francophone division, that in fact will be possible. Mr. Plohman: I thank the mi nis ter for that clarification, and can she answer the other obvious qu estion: Why has she included the map if indeed it is possible to have areas throughout the province included in the Francophone school division? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, again, the pr ocess of looking at the whole issue of Francophone governance was a very complicated one, and also, there were a numb er of legal

May 25, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 3304 requirements to be satisfied and a number of requirements to make sure that we were complying with the results of the Supreme Court decision. I would say that further discussion regarding some of the details that he is asking about would best be covered when we are able to discuss the bill at the committee stage or in the process of debate. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this is not the bill that I am discussing.

It is the minister's policy with regard to the map that she has included in her policy booklet, and I am asking why the minister arrived at the policy decision to include a map. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, again, the answer is the same. There is a very complicated process which we have undergone in terms of complying with the Supreme Court decision and also the legal requirements to create a new school division.

When we are in the process of actually discussing the bill and the details of the legislation, then that would be an appropriate time for us to discuss some of the detail which he is asking for at this time. Mr. Plohman: I will ask the minister, is it not a fact that the legal requirements apply to all of Manitoba where numb ers warrant? Mrs. Vodrey: The issue of where numb ers warrant, as he knows, we have looked at in the process of the bill.

We certainly will be looking to accommodate Manitobans who indicate that they wish to have their child enrolled in the Francophone school division, making sure that those parents who do indicate that they would like their child enrolled actually do hold rights as

Section 23 parents or in fact meet the other requirements which have been set out within the legislation. • (151 0) Mr. Plohman: As the minister envisages it, is the Francophone school division not limited to what is designated on the map? I believe the minister has said no, it is not, from what I understood her to say. On that basis, why was a map which therefore has no signi ficance as to the lim itations of the Francophone school division included in the minister's policy book? Mrs. Vodrey: I can go back to saying that the map indicates areas in which there are concentrations of

Section 23 rights-holders and areas in which it refl ec ts that ther e are cer tain numb er s of Manitobans who may wish to take part within the Francophone school division. But, as I have explained to the member before, that where there is a parent who does meet the qualifications that have been set out as

Section 23 rights-holder, or meets the other qualifications which are noted, that person may wish to have their child educated within the Francophone governance system. Mr. Plohman: Just to understand why the minister bothered with the map when the rights apply to Manitobans throughout the province, can I ask whether this map is to delineate all municipalities where the number of potential students exceeds 50? Is that what this map does? Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, that is correct. Mr. Plohman: It would have been nice for the minister to tell us that earlier.

It might have saved some time on discussion on this issue, simply to say that the potential students exceed 50. Now c�n the minister indicate why that numb er was chosen? Is that an arbitrary number based on certain facts? Is it determined that if there were 50 perhaps that would be enough to make it viable to have a class of students? What is the rationale there? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, this number is one which is identifiable through the mo st recent census, but also this does take into account areas in which we know that there are franc;ais schools operating and areas that have been identified to have num bers of families which would be eligible to become a part of the Francophone school division. Again, they are areas in which there are schools currently operating. Mr. Plohman: Just to clarify from the minister, are there any other municipalities not shaded in on the map where there is a potential of 50 students or more? Mrs.

Vodrey: I am informed that this shaded area does include the areas in which there are franc;:ais schools operating. However, the bill-and I hesitate to get into a detailed discussion of the bill at this time dur ing the Estim ates of the Dep artm ent of Education-does provide for the Francophone school division then, as trustees and memb ers of regional committees, to look at extending the actual territory of the Francophone school division when it is requested or when there is a requirement to do so. So there is a provision which is available and a way in which the board may then wish to begin to

3305 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 1993 accommodate other eligible Manitobans. However, I have said from the beginning, and it has been government's policy from the beginning, that where there is a family who holds the rights of parents and wishes to have their children educated within the Francophone school division, that would then be made possible. Mr. Plohman: Yes, then just to clarify, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the map is irrelevant to the extent that the division, the Francophone division, is not limited to munic ipalities where there are 50 or more potential students? * (1 520) Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, the map, we believe, was an important way to look at where the concentrations and the largest num bers of eligible

Section 23 Francophone families would be residing, in areas which would then be conside red , potentially, to wish to indicate their right to join the Francophone school division. But, as I have said before, where an individual wishes to take

part in that program and is a child of an eligible family, that provision will be made for that child then to attend a program within the Francophone school division. Secondly, I have also said that where there are areas within the province-this is provided by the bil l-w ho wish to become inclu ded by the Francophone school division, within the Franco­ phone school division, that provision is there for the Francophone board-a me chanism for the Francophone board-to then consider this and to look at it.

So there are two issues which I have been attempting to clarify during the course of the discussion this afternoon. Mr. Plohman: Is itthe minister's beliefthat there are no mun icipalities other than those that are listed, that are shaded on the map, where there are 50 potential students or more? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that is correct. Mr. Plohman: Jus t ano ther aspect of this discussion dealing with the minister's policy, and that goes back to what I asked earlier at the outset of this discussion.

Can the minister indicate why she has taken a position or established a policy that the new Francophone school division being implemented as a result of the Supreme Court decision would not be the exclusive provider of French language first programming? Mrs. Vodrey: The question before the court was the management rights of the Francophones over their school division. The court decision did grant exclusive rights of management over the Franco­ phone school division. Manitoba has complied with that in our legislation.

The court did not go so far as to grant monopoly rights over all frangais education within this province. Therefore, in the system which we have put forward, we have provided for a Francophone governance model in which there are exclusive rights, in which the board will operate with exclusive rights of the Francophones and entitled individuals to operate the school division. We have not chosen a model which is representational or which is a ratio model. We have, in fact, chosen a model which will give the exclusive rights of governance within the Francophone school division to the eligible Manitobans. Mr.

Plohman: Mr. Deputy Chair pers on , the minister's stated policy here today to the committee seems somewhat different than her policy in the briefing material that she has provided to members, and that is that there would be powers to continue to offer frangais programming to existing school divisions, even though those existing school divisions have turned over a major part of this programming to the Francophone division. So we would indeed have parallel programming going on in these divisions potentially. Mrs.

Vodrey: Again, the issue is one of exclusive jurisdiction over the Francophone board which we have allowed, but the court did not go so far as to say that this board had monopoly rights over frangais education within the province. Because the court did not go so far as to discuss monopoly rights, we have set up a system of governance in which there is exclusive jurisdiction over the Francophone board, but where Manitobans wish to remain within their own school divisions, then they continue to have the right to do so as we understand the court decision. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please.

I would like to remind honourable mem bers that we are dealing wit h 1. (c )(1 ) Planning and Polic y Development. We are now starting to deal directly with the legislation, as the honourable member has quoted

May 25, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 3306 exactly from the briefing list provided to him by the minister according to the legislation. So I would ask tha t we get back to Plannin g and Polic y Developmen t at this time. Mr. Plohman: Well, the minister has indicated in her policy paper that, in fact, existing school divisions would be empowered to continue to offer franc;ais programs even in school div isions where the Francophone school division has jurisdiction.

I have never stated in my questions that all of the province of Manitoba should be under exclus ive jurisdiction of the Francophone school division, but what I am asking about is why the minister has chosen as a matter of policy to have parallel French language first programming in school divisions. Does she not think this is a very costly way to proceed? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, in all the discussions which we have held and spoken about in terms of our model to implement Francophone governance, we have also respected individuals within this province, and we have also respected the fact that some individuals and some communities may wish to remain within their current school divisions.

We will not know until the Monnin Committee has, in fact, finished its work which, if any, of those communities may wish to remain within their home school divisions, but we have respected the right of Manitobans where they wish to remain within their home school divisions and have allowed programs to continue within their school divisions if that is what the community wishes. However, we have through our legislation come forward with a model for Francophone school governance which does put the governance of the Franc o phone board under the exclusiv e management of the Francophone commu nity.

So we have certainly been very active in meeting the requirements in terms of forming the Franco­ phone school division and also in providing the exclusive management rights, but also accepting the fact that some Manitobans may wish to remain within their current school divisions, and we have respected the rights of those Manitobans to indicate that this may be the choice they would like to make. Mr. Plohman: Just for clarification, the jurisdiction of the Francophone school division would not prevent immersion programs, for example, from existing in existing school divisions. Is that correct? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chair, that is correct because French Immersion programs do not speak to French first language education. * (1 530) Mr. Plohman: Then why would the minister opt for an expensive option of having parallel French first language programming in both the school divisions ex isting at the presen t time and the new Francophone school division? Why would she not have had a clear-cut decision that parents would have to make here? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, because, as we have said from the beginning, Manitobans may wish to make a choice about remaining within their own school division and programs as they currently exist within their own community. That has been discussed from the announcement of this particular model for Francophone governance. The Supreme Court chose not to comment on the particular model and also, as I said, came short of and did not, in fact, discuss the issue of the monopoly rights of the Francophone community.

So we have put forward a model which allows for the exclus ive management of the Francophone school division by the Francophone community. We have also allowed for Manitobans to indicate if they wish to become a part of that Francophone school board or if they wish to maintain the program ming within their current division. I quote from Chief Justice Dickson, in terms of his remarks, in saying that the government should have the widest possi ble discretion in selecting the institutional means by which

Section 23 obligations are to be met, and the court should be loath to interfere and impose what would be necessarily Procrustean standards unless this discretion is not exercised at all or is exercised in such a way as to deny a constitutional right. Mr. Plohman: Did the minister consider the costs of the various options she had? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, as the member knows, children are currently being educated within a school division and within a school system, and the funds provided do fl ow, one, through the education funding formula and, secondly, through funds provided by taxation.

When children move into the Francophone system, that system will be funded, No. 1, by the edu cation funding formula and, secondly, by

3307 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 25, 1993 taxation, by those funds which will then follow the child into the Francophone governance model. Mr. Plohman: Is it the minister's understanding that her choice of a parallel programming model will cost more than having programming provided by one jurisdiction, rather than parallel. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, the total costs will become known when we have the details of the registration.

Again, I will remind the member that he is getti ng into some very detailed discussion of legislation which is before the House, and he is asking for information that generally would be covered within debate and within ques tioning around the issue of the legislation. Mr. Plohman: The only other option to discuss any of these items, of course, when we get into specific enactment of these policies, will be when we deal with clause-by-clause discussion of the bill.

There is no opportunity for the opposition to raise questions with the minister or to discuss it in the House, at least in terms of a two-way discussion. We have what is on the record by the minister, and that is probably all we are going to see until the clause-by-clause discussion. So we are talking what could be a period of weeks or months even before further discussion can go on. I think it is important from a policy point of view that the minister is prepared to answer the policy basis for her legislation. That is what I am asking about: the principles and policy behind that legislation.

I said that a number of times--a nd no reflection on the Chair, I must say, but I have to say that the Chair has brought to my attention that I should be asking in a different line. The minister has attempted to procrastinate on this issue on num erous occasions during this questioning.

I am simply asking a matter of principle and policy here whether the minister understood when she chose the option, the policy option, of allowing for parallel programming in areas where parents had opted for the new Francophone division, that that would cost more than if she had gone with exclusive jurisdiction for that Franco­ phone division in those areas where they had opted for the Francophone division. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, again, as I have explained to the member, there is a basic cost of educating the pupil in one division or the other.

I have explained how that funding flows, whether it flows to an existing division or whether it flows to the new Francophone division. He then has moved from that issue into asking questions about specifics, and as I have said to him, we have to wait until we find out exactly how many pupils will be moving into the Francophone division, their age, their grade, their particular needs. Then we will also have to look at the operating costs of buildings and so on. We will need to look at the salary of instructors and so on.

There is a great deal of work which will be done over the next while, one by the Monnin Comm ittee, and then secondly by the new Francophone board, before students are transferred. We expect students to be in the schools for September '94. So, again, there are a number of details which the member would like to have specific numbers for, and which are very dependent upon some of the decisions which will be made in the next while by the commu nity.

But I think that it is important to look at the answer as I have given it to him so far, and that is that funding is provided per pupil and that funding will flow through the funding formula. Also, as he knows, there is a formula which allows for the money which is collected by taxation to also flow with that student into the Francophone division. So ther e are students who are currently being funded in one division. Those students will now be funded in the Francophone division. Mr.

Plohman: If the minister wants to characterize my qu estions as specific, then she should realize that I could be asking qu estions of precisely how much money per pupil will be transferred from the provincial grants, how many will be transferred as a result of property tax levy, and how large the cost savings would be precisely by having a single program offered as opposed to a parallel program in terms of dollars. Those are specific questions. I am not asking those specific qu estions. I am asking about the policies and principles behind the decisions of the minister.

The minister has chosen a policy option that results in parallel programming potentially in many school divisions for French language first instruction being that offered by the Francophone division and that offered by the existing division. I have to ask the minister, as I said, whether she is aware that offering parallel programming such as that costs more than having individual programs, regardless of what grants are transferred. There is only so much money there. The minister would be the first to tell us that to justify her cuts this

May 25, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 3308 year in education generally. So, if she is not indicating that she is manufacturing more money, we have to explore that whole area with the minister, because there may very well be- there are, as a fact, additional costs associated with implementing the Supreme Court decision. • (1 540) The federal government has recognized that to a certain extent. Even with the small amount they have announced to all the provinces over a six-year period, they have recognized that.

So we know there are going to be additional costs, and at some point we have to quantify what we are talking about here and how the decisions of this government are going to impact on existing school divisions and on existing programming. Pretty important issue, and we have to find out from the minister how much she has thought this through in terms of this impact.

I am asking the minister on the issue of parallel program ming whether she realizes that has a greater cost to it than allocating the exclusive jurisdiction of French language first programming to the Francophone division where parents have made the decision that they would like to become part of the Francophone division. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, in putting forward this model, we did respect the right of Manitobans to make choices and that was a very important issue of respect , but I think now Manitobans, as they work wit h the Monnin Committee, will now determine where they will be registering their children.

It will not be, until we have the information regarding where children will be registered, what parents' intention is in terms oftheir registration for us to really be able to provide him with the details of any places where there may be a parallel system or where some families choose simply to have things remain as they are, or, in other cas es, where some fam ilies and school com muni ties choose to become a part of the Francophone-governed model totally. There is a process in place.

As I have explained, the process is started, and the process was put forward to assist Manitobans in terms of information, but behind the piece of legislation that we have introduced, I have explained to the member, is the right of choice. Mr. Plohman: So the minister would acknowledge that there are significant costs associated with offering a specific program and that there is a significant potential savings if that program does not have to be offered by a particular school division? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, no, I did not say that. Mr. Plohman: Well, let us go back over it again.

The minister has said that the matter of choice was her guiding principle, and I respect that decision if that is the minister's decision in terms of having students or parents being able to choose whether they want to become part of the Francophone division or whether they want to have franc;ais programs offered through the existing school divisions. That is the principle that the minister has chosen as the overriding principle. What I simply wanted to have the minister deal with here in terms of her response and her policy is whether she recognizes an additional cost when there is parallel programming.

The minister seemed to indicate that she did recognize there could be additional costs. She did not know how much yet, she did not know where this might happen, until the committee had made its report; but, in fact, she acknowledged, I guess, grudgingly, that this could exist in some cases. There could be parallel programming, and there would be a cost associated with same. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I know that this is really a lot of new information for the member, and so let me just remind him again that the right of governance is conferred upon the individual.

The individual, then, is the one who will determine what they wish to have happen on behalf of their child. As the court decision says, the rights provided by

Section 23, it must be remembered, are granted to min ority language parents individually. Their entitlement is not subject to the will of the minority group to which they belong, be that of a majority of that group, but only to where numbers warrant condition. So our government, in putting forward its plan for Francophone governance, did respect the right of the individual and the right of that individual then to make a choice.

We have to now look at com­ munities, look at individuals within communi ties, and, as they work with the Monnin Committee, to determ ine what their interest is in terms of registering, or if they would like to remain within their community and within their school division as they currently are, that they wish not to make a change.

3309 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 1993 We will have to look at, then, whether or not that indicates that there would be, as the member has called it, a parallel system or not. We have to let the Monnin Committee do its work. When we receive more information from the Monnin Committee, then we will be able to give him that greater detail.

I think, again it is important, that he respect the process that is cu rrently in place for Manitobans and that Manitobans will listen to the information , will understand what the bill provides, will understand the system of governance within Manitoba, and then they will indicate their interest in terms of registering their child. It will be an indication of wishing to register their child, or, in some cases, some Manitobans may wish to remain within their local school division. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 1 .(c)(1 ). Mr.

Plohman: I wa nt to respect the process, certainly, but I just want the minister to give clearer answers. Will the minister acknowledge, then, that she intends to provide for parallel programming in her policy? Mrs. Vodrey: There is only one system of Francophone governance, and that is the model that we have put forward. However, we do understand that some Manitobans may wish to remain within their current school division. We will have to see whatthe community's wishes are, and if, in fact, from that commu nity, there are families who wish to be part of the governance model.

The member is really asking us to anticipate and to hypothesize on issues which really have to take place with the work of the Monnin Committee. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister seems to indicate there is only one system of Francophone governance. Well, there will be only one system in this province depending on which one is legislated, but that does not mean that there is only one model that the minister could implement. There are a number of different models.

One would have the Francophone school division having exclusive jurisdiction once parents have decided in a parti cular area over a French language first program ming; another mi ght see a parallel programming which the minister seems to have adopted in her policy at this particular time. I am simply wanting to get from the minister whether she will acknowledge that there are significant costs associated with offering a specific program in a school division and that those costs will have to be borne by someone. The minister may have some responsibility there. • (1 550) Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, we come back then to the point that children are currently being educated within a school division. They are currently being educated with funds that flow on their behalf from the ed funding formula and also by funds which flow from taxation. Those children will then either continue to be edu cated within their cu rrent school division providing for a program, or those children will then be educated within the governance model. There is only one system of governance.

The funds that flow on behalf of that child will flow either to the current school division if that is where the child wishes to remain or will go with that child into the new governance model, into the Francophone school division. So we are not looking at a whole lot of children whom we did not know about before. These children are currently being educated within a division. It is, as I have said in my remarks in the House, an administrative matter, and children will then be educated within the Francophone model if that is what parents choose, and the funds will then flow to that model.

The member seems to have a view that somehow there will be more children involved, and we are not speaking about more children. We are speaking about children who are being educated in one division who may wish to then move to the Francophone governance model or whose families may wish them to remain within their current system. Mr.

Plohman: But the minister has said that she will require both progr amming, the same franqais programming to be offered in both school divisions at the same times with half the numbers potentially, if it is divided in half, or maybe one-third in one school division and two-thirds in the other, or whatever ratio happens to work out. Does the minister not acknowledge additional costs when you are offering the same programming in both school divisions? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, because it is still the same number of students.

Somehow the member has a view that everything would remain the same if stude nts were not

May 25, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3310 attending within an existing school division, for instance. What we are saying is that the funding, on behalf of those children, would flow into the Francophone governance model. Mr. Plohman: The minister has to acknowledge that there are admin istrative costs. There are general costs associated with offering a program. If the program does not have to be offered, there are significant cost savings for school divisions. If it has to be offered, there are significant additional costs. Will the minister acknowledge that? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, again, the member is trying to speak about something that we have to let the Monnin Comm ittee do its work on. We have to look at the number of students that families say they wish to register within the new Francophone governance model. We will have to look at students in areas where families do not wish that to occur. We will have to look at the number of students to be transferred, the age and the grade of students to be transferred. So there are a number of factors which are still in the process and in process with the Monnin Committee. Mr.

Plohman: So the minister is acknowledging that students will be transferred, and along with their transfer will be their funding, funding that is allocated on a per-pupil basis, both at the local level as well as by the Department of Education. With the students being transferred, the school divisions are going to lose that funding with those students, but they are still going to be required, if some numb ers remain behind, to offer that program in their school divisions. They will not be able to save money in being able to discontinue that program. They will have to maintain that program.

So they are still going to have costs associated, only they are going to have a serious problem of declining enrollmen t. Sur ely the min ister knows how decl inin g enrollment affects programming in schools. So maybe that is the way to make it easy for the minister to understand what I am getting at here. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, again, the member asks a num ber of questions-if students, when students, what if students, and, again, these are all hypothetical qu estions because we have not yet seen that the work of the Monnin Comm ittee has been completed.

Divisions will then be able to look at within their school division when parents have indicated their wish to register or to remain within their local school division, and then the divisions will then look at how they will accommodate. They will be able to look at the num bers. They will be able to look at all of the issues which we have been discussing.

So, again, the member is asking questions which at this point are not possible to give detailed answers to because the Monnin Com mittee is continuing its work but, again, I would remind the member that it has been very important to this government to allow for Manitobans the choice, to indicate if they wish to join the Francophone governance model or if the wish to remain in a program operated by their home school division. Perhaps that may be the area that the member would like to be talking about. Mr.

Plohman: The minister acknowledges that she intends to allow frangais programming to continue in existing school divisions, as well as the Francophone division. The minister knows that it is extremely unlikely that, as a result of the Monnin commission's work, there will be no cases where some parents want to remain to have frangais instruction continue in existing school divisions, while others want to go to the Francophone division. I mean that is a pretty obvious outcome of these delib erations. We are not talking about great hypothetical situations here.

We are talking that which is almost a certainty of how this will fall out in terms of the decisions. That is why I wanted explore with the minister. I think it is important that parents know what the options are and what the reasoning behind the minister's decisions is on this. The acknowledgment that there are additional costs to the model that the mini ster is put ting forward is a sig nific ant acknowledgment in this particular instance.

I think it is incumbent upon us to ask the minister-and it is something that parents should kno w about, scho ol divisions should know about-wh ether the min ister intends to provide transitional funding to existing school divisions to offset the additional cost that they will have as a result of loss of students-with them, all of the grant money locally as well as from the province. * (1 600) Mrs. Vodrey: Again, the reasons that the member speaks about, that I have given him during the

3311 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 1993 course of the afternoon, are reasons of choice, and we believe that the rights conferred are rights conferred upon individuals to make a determination. In terms of the costs, we need to look at the work of the Monnin Committee. Then we would have an idea from their work about whether or not some areas and some individuals wish to remain in a program within their own school division, or if they wish to move into the Francophone model.

In terms of making sure that school divisions are well aware of the impact, we have a representative committee, and this has been the way that we have operated in terms of an implemen tation committee from the time of the announcement.

We hav e said, from the time of the announcement, there should be representatives of the Francophone groups on the implem entation committee, and there should also be a represent­ ative of the Manitoba Association of School Trustees, where existing divisions then would be able to fully understand the process, and also what is happening in terms of the movement toward the Francophone school division. In terms of the three questions that we have continually gone around for the afternoon, again, issue of choice. We need to have the Monnin Comm ittee do its work.

The Monnin Committee does consist of representatives of people who will represent the Francophone commu nity and the movement toward the Francophone school division. It also represents people who are representative of existing-Manitoba Association of School Trustees, for instance. So the issues will be able to be worked out in the process. Mr. Plohman: The minister has to acknowledge that, while we are talking about using her numbers, 4,000 to 6,000 students estimated to be involved, it could be many more.

I noticed the minister, in her introduction of Bill 34, said that there are 11 ,000 whose mother tongue is not French but whose parents have rights under the Charter, so the potential numbers are much greater. Even if we acknowledge the 4,000 to 6,000 that we are talking about at this particular time, the minister's numbers, we are talking from $1 6 million to $24 mill ion in provincial grants being transferred in addition to the money lost from local levies to school divisions. That is a lot of money. We are talking, you know, $20 million to $30 million. It could be greater.

Surely the minister does not think school divisions can just absorb the loss of this and still offer the same services which will be the case in many school divisions if they have to offer parallel programming, even with fewer students. So the writing is on the wall for a tremendous loss in revenue and a significant impact on school divisions faced with pretty difficult times at the present time. So that is why I asked the minister the qu estion-and surely she should be thinking about that-ab out the issue of compen sation or a transitional funding to ease the impact of this transition.

That is why I asked the minister if she has any plans in this regard. Mrs. Vodrey: Again, I take the member back to saying that it is students who will be moving from one division to another, and therefore students who are at the moment being served by one school division will then be served by the Francophone school division. We have also discussed this afternoon how the funding will flow on behalf of students from an existing school division to the Francophone school division, but then, of course, there will be a change of students.

We are not talking about a whole lot of new students, we are talking about students who are currently in a school system in Manitoba, and the funding on behalf of those students will remain the same. It will be funding through the ed finance model, and it will also be funding which will flow from taxation. There is a formula identified to allow for the transfer of those taxati on funds in to the Francophone school division. Mr.

Plohman: I guess it is quite understandable why the minister does not understand the questions I am asking about increased costs associated with parallel administrations and parallel programming, because she has continued to promote the private school funding at a much higher degree than the public school system over the last number of years without regard to how that impacts on existing school divisions in terms of lost students, in terms of grant money, in terms of money associated with offering programming in a parallel way because of the additional cost s of admin istra tion and programming that I have mentioned.

So I guess the minister is not prepared at this time to admit that there are additional costs associated with parallel programming. It is a simple conceptfor

May 25, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 3312 the minister, but she is unwilling to accept that particular argument. (Mrs. Shirley Render, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) I can say to her though that she will not be able to keep her head in the sand forever on this. It is just a qu estion that we are asking out of concern about all the children in this province, all schools in this province.

We believe that the federal government along with the province have a responsibility to implement the Supreme Court decision, not the local school divisions having to carry the burden of implementing the Supreme Court decision. That responsibility lies with this minister and with the federal government. Clearly the minister is not going to get away with offloading this onto the local divisions by ignoring the factors associated with declinin g student numbers and how that impacts on programming in those schools.

The minister has had representation from school divisions since she has been minister, and certainly the previous minister had, about how declining enr ollmen t was im pacting on their abilit y to administer the school division and offer quality programming. Many times there had to be special funding offered because of declining enrollments. We are looking at declining enrollmen ts here, in effect. So the minister should recognize that, and not continue to deny that reality. That is why we are going to continue to ask the minister for clear answers on this issue. It is not sufficient.

We may move on to other areas in this department, but we are not doing so with any satisfaction till the minister has dealt with the issues raised in any way satisfactorily. She will have to continue to contend with them until she does have satisfactory plans to deal with these important issues. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mrs. Render): Line 1. (c)(1 )-pass ; 1. (c)(2)-pass. We will now be looking at line 1. (

d) Human Resource Services

(1) Salaries $329,200- * (1 61 0) Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): I have a couple of questions in this area on a number of different issues. One is in relation to the clinicians who were employed with the Department of Education and now a number of them have been asked to seek employment either elsewhere or through school divisions. There seems to have been some confusion as to what the rights were of these particular employees and what their severance packages would be, et cetera. I am wondering if the minister has information on that today, if she could clarify what information was given to these staff persons.

First of all, does she have documentation indicating that they were going to be laid off or that their employment would be terminated? What were the details of that? Mrs. Vodrey: For the clinicians, they were entitled to the severance package, but for clinicians who have been re-employed by school divisions, they were not entitled to the enhanced severance package. Ms. Gray: Can the minister explain why that decision was made, or the rationale behind it? Mrs. Vodrey: This was an

interpretation of the civil service, and the

interpretation is that where people leave the employment of government, but become re-emplo yed by a body which directly receives grants from government, then they would not be entitled to the enhanced severance package. In the case of school divisions, we as government do provide direct grants through our ed funding form ula to school divisions. So it was the

interpretation of the civil service that for clinicians who became re-emp loyed by school divisions again, they would be entitled to a severance package, not to the enhanced severance package because of their employment by a body which received direct funding from government. Ms. Gray: If a clinician then was hired by, let us say, an institution such as a hospital, what type of package would they receive? What would the

interpretation be? Mrs. Vodrey: Well, I am informed again, this being a civil service

interpretation, that for clinicians who have more than 10 years of service, and who go to work, not in a school division, but perhaps in a hospital, as the member suggests, they would then be entitled to the regular severance and the enhanced severance. Ms. Gray: Can the minister explain then for my clarification, what the difference would be between a hospital that receives also direct funding from a government and a school division which receives direct funding?

3313 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 1993 Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, well, again I am informed that these individuals are school clinicians, that is in fact how they are certified to do their work as a school clinician. Therefore when they become employed by school divisions they are still employed within an area for which my department and this government provides direct funding, my department in particular.

Where people wish to apply their skills, not specifically as school clinicians but as people who have a type of training which might be useful within a hospital setting, they have in fact and I am led to understand this, then they are not operating as school clinicians within that job description. Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell us where does the certification come from as school clinicians? Mrs. Vodrey: The certification comes through the Department of Education and Training. Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell us, when she says this is an

interpretation of the civil service, who within the civil service? Was it the actual board of commissioners or was it the bureaucrats? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, it was an

interpretation of the senior officials of the civH service. Ms. Gray: I understand that some of the clinicians did write and ask for clarification of this particular issue. Can the minister tell us, have those staff received any further word back in writing from the department clarifying this position in regard to severance packages? Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, I am in formed tha t the individuals have received many letters in writing from the department. Ms.

Gray: Can the minister tell us, have these letters outlined that in essence the difference is that because they are certified as school clinicians that is why there would not be the enhanced severance? Mrs. Vodrey: The information that the individuals received related to government policy as I have described it in terms of the employment, and employment again as a school psychologist, and when that person becomes re-employed by a school division. Ms. Gray: What is the effective layoff date for these clinicians? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, the effective layoff date is June 30. • (1 620) Ms.

Gray: Can the minister tell us, does she have figures as to how many of these clinicians have been rehired by school divisions? Mrs. Vodrey: This has been described as the concern and, I suppose, the business of the clinicians themselves, and they have decided not to specifically inform us of where their employment is. Ms. Gray: Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, if the effective layoff date or termination is June 30, if then a clinician is hired by a school division effective July 2, does that constitute a break in service? Would they then be eligible for the enhanced severance? Mrs.

Vodrey: Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, I understand that, yes, that would constitute a break in service, but in order to collect the severance the employees would then have to sign a letter placing them in the permanent layoff category and allowing them eligibility to be rehired by government over a period of one year. Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell us then, she has indicated that in regard to the clinicians, there is not an indication from them as to if they have been rehired though.

Can she tell us from the school division point of view-she had indicated earlier I think in remarks in Estimates that she was not aware of any school divisions who were not going to use clinician services-does she have more details on those particular specifics in regard to school divisions, how many clinicians they would use and what number of personnel that might involve? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, the finalizations of employment have not occurred yet, but we have not had an indication from any divisions to this point that they will be reducing their clinician services. Ms.

Gray: If these clinicians for whatever reason choose to be on a permanent layoff list, in other words, if they do not have other employment, will school divisions then have access to those lists? Will school divisions be required to use those lists, or is there any obligation on the school divisions at all? Mrs. Vodrey: The potential for the hir ing of clinicians is 59.5 positions. School divisions can, however, choose to hire whomever they wish to fill those positions. I am also informed that, again, the employment that clinicians choose is certainly up to them as individuals.

They will be able to decide where they wish to be employed. However, l am told

May 25, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3314 that some have in fact turned down some re-employment with government. Ms. Gray: Basically what she is saying then is that school divisions have no obligation to hire these particular clinicians if in fact they happen to be looking for a clinician, so that the layoff list that these clinicians may be on really has no effect or has no influence on a school division. Is that correct? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, school divisions are, as I said, able to hire whomever they choose, and so the layoff list does not specifically affect school divisions.

Ms. Gray: Perhaps the minister can clarify for myself then what I would think is a bit of a contradiction, because then for clinicians who are laid off and are told that if they want enhanced severance, it would only be when they were not rehired by a school division, and that is because of the fact that government gives direct funding to school divisions. So we are making an

interpretation about someone's benefits based on school divisions and their funding, yet on the other hand, school divisions have absolutely no requirement to even utilize government layoff lists to hire these staff back. To me they are not parallel relationships, and that is why I do not understand the

interpretation of the civil service. Mrs. Vodrey: In terms of the enhanced severance, the member may know this, but people would be entitled to that enhanced severance only if they had been in the employ of government for 1 0 years or over, so that it is not a matter that would affect all clinicians. In fact, it has only affect ed, my under­ standing is, six clinicians who have been employed for that time period of over 1 0 years and might have been eligible for the enhanced severance.

Clinicians will in fact go on a re-employment list within government over those who wish to work specifically as school psychologists and to apply their training specifically as school psychologists and, as they are certified as school psycholo