Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 60B (31st Legislature, 3rd Session)

31-3-60b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

.. • .. ,. ISSN 0542-54 92 Third Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 28 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL. XXVII No. 608 8:00 P.M. Monday, May 14, 1979 Office of the Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

.. .. • • " LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL V OF MANITOBA Monday, May 14, 1979 Time: 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY - CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS MR.CHAIRMAN: Committee come to order . Page 19, Resolution 27, 2.(aX1)-pass- the Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, we were discussing this problem just before 4:30 about some difficulties experienced by Manitoba tourists when travelling in foreign countries, in regard to the status of their medical capability; and also some problems encountered by people who had had friends and relatives die, and then had had extreme difficulty and exhorbitant costs in attempting to bring the deceased back to Manitoba .

And so I just wanted to say to the Minister that if I can't persuade him to do something posit ive in the sense of meet with people from the travel industry, or attempt to provide information to the citizens of Manitoba, I would hope that the least that he would undertake, and the least that he would attempt, would be to perhaps discuss these problems with people in the industry; and perhaps on occasion speak on this question when he has an opportunity to address public meetings to simply make Manitobans aware of the fact that these difficulties have been experienced, and that they should be extremely cautious in moving to take vacations in certain countries because of some of the problems , encountered there .

I don't mean to blacklist countries, but I mean to simply inform people of some previous experiences, because I see some value in public information, and public education; and I think that's one of the roles and responsibilities of the Minister, that he should acquaint people with these problems and take this into the public forum, as we are today. My concern is that the Minister really is the person who is supposed to be the champion of the consumers, and historically, I suppose, his party is more the champion of the businessman .

And I think it's all very well to say that people should beware, and that people are on their own. As the Minister of Fitness said, this is up to the individual, and we're all aware of that, but sometimes I guess, first of all, some people aren't too bright, and we can't protect everybody but some people, I think, are just simply not aware of some of the complications which don't exist in ordinary travel.

So that if a person is used to travelling, say, in the United States, or in other parts of Canada, and they've never had any problems, it just may not occur to them that if they go to another country in Europe or Latin America, that they will suddenly encounter problems in regard to medicine and in regard to more serious difficulties, including death.

So that the apparent response of the Minister, I mean the action that he took, we can't gauge whether he's concerned in his own mind, but we know what action he took, and when I read that his response was a letter to Mexico, it just struck me as an inadequate response and I would urge him to be more aggressive and more vigilant in protecting the interests of the consumer . MR. CHAIRMAN: (a)(1)-pass - the Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, another area that was raised by one of my colleagues and I believe that there is something in the Throne Speech and I don't recall whether there's been any legislation introduced yet - but there was concern expressed in the last year or two about bankrupt travel companies; people taking summer vacations, etc. and suddenly discovering that the company they were dealing with had gone bankrupt and I suppose there are various reactions here. I suppose in one instance people may have lost some money .

In other instances, I suppose people discovered that maybe they were in a foreign country when they discovered that they were going to have to hitchhike their way home because the company they were dealing with was out of business . Now that was the problem and we know that there was some determined individuals protesting this and picketing travel agencies and so on. None of this is unique to Manitoba . This has been happening in other provinces and in the United States in particular.

Now I think, if I recall that there was a hint of something in the Throne Speech, because I believe that one of our MLAs was going to introduce a resolution or a bill to the effect of protecting people by perhaps requiring travel companies to post bonds or show some greater amount of financial 4193

Monday, May 14, 1979 capabilit y to cover people deali ng with them . Maybe this comes under the - 1 don 't know about the Secu rities Commission, but it's something about insuring that the companies that are operating in Manitoba can meet and fulfill certain obligations . So I'm saying to the Minister was there not some hint of this in the Throne Speech and what is the follow-through? What is the Minister intending to do about this? MR. CHJI~IRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairm an, the matter is being developed. We've had a draft version of

an Act that has not been quite satisfactory as far as I am conc erned . And so we are continuing to try and bring forth a bill that I think will meet the circumstances . There are some , as my honourable friend may appreciate, some difficulties in connection with providing the kind of security that my honourable friend speaks of and incorporat ing them into legislation that is effective .

And until I ~ feel that we have the kind of legislation that can do the task and provide the protection we believe we would like to see, then we'll continue to try and work out a piece of legislation that is effective , but until then , I hate to bring in a piece of legislation that is something less than what the publi c would want and what my hono ura ble friends would want. So we are continuing to work on that , and hopefully we can still prod uce something . MR. DOERN: Is there such legislation in other provin ces or is there Americ an legislation that we may take as an example? MR.

JOR<2ENSON: I don 't know of any American legislation , I know that there is a bill, I believe , in Ontario and B.C., but upon examinat ion I'm not too sure that the bill, although it is there, provides the effective kind of protection that I think the consumers would want. And until I have that kind of legislation ready , I'm hesitant to introduce someth ing that will be less than effective. MR. DOERN: Then , Mr.

Chairman , I tak e it that since the Minister is also the House Leader and since the session is probably slowly moving toward a conclusion in the next 30 days -(lnterjection) rapidly moving to a conclusion in the next 30 days, then I assume that we will not see that legislation this session, even though it was indicated in the Throne Speech? MR. JORC-iENSON: Well , it's still possible , Mr. Chairman , but I'm not going to make a commitment that it can be introduced, and as I said , I want to be sure that that legislation is the kind of legislation that I believe will be effective. MR.

DOEnN: Could I also ask the Minister again , whether assuming he misses the deadline and we have to wait another year, I assume that it can only be done through legislation and are ther e any interim measures, again , in terms of public education or moral suasion or any other techniques available to the Minister whereby he might ensure that we don 't have repeated occurrences of this in the next twelve months . MR.

JORGENSON: As a matter of fact, the travel industry itself is concerned about this problem and are attempt ing lo work with the department in providing assurance that the travelling public will be protected . MR. CHAIRMAN: (a)(1)-pass - The Member for Wolseley . MR. WILSON: I wonder if the general public , who have experienced some difficulty with being able to get the Manitoba Bar Associa tion and the Law Society of Manitoba to establish a

schedule of .. fees which are understandable by the layman - and I notice under the Consumers' Bureau you '!. control thEl fees that are charged by other sections of the private sector rather than leaving the fee structure to the marketplace - and I wondered if, in fairness to the general public who are dealing with the lawyers , who have been trying to get lawyers ' fees printed in the newspaper , and recently some have been success ful, but under very extremely rigid guidelines.

I would like to see the day when the consumer would be able to shop around for legal advice in the marketplace like they can shop around for a General Electric toaster , or they can shop around for , for instance, now with the new men 's hair salons they can shop around for a body wave or whatever or a perm - whatever they call them.

It would seem to me that the day is fast approach ing when an industry that can't police itself has to have some arm of government to be able to suggest to them , by means of the written word or whatever, that they do not enjoy the complete privilege to be completely self-policing, that at some point in time they have to print something that is 4194

Monday, May 14, 1979 1 have the Manitoba Bar Association Guideline to Solicitor' s Fees in front of me and it is extremel y vague and does not deal with civil suits or anything along that nature. It simpl y says, "an agreed hourly rate may be charged " and so on and so forth . So I'll just leave it at that. I just wanted to touch upon it briefly so that those members of the Bar Association who take the time to read Hansard will realize that somebody is tryin g to get a window into what's going on and a word to the wise sometimes is sufficient. .; MR.

CHAIRMAN: (a)(1)-pass; (a)(2)-pass; (a)-pass; (b)(1) - the Honourable Member for Wellington . • MR. CORRIN: The point made from the Member for Wolseley, I'd be interested in knowing what the Minister's position is with respect to that matter, whether the Minister concurs that. . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. I got that passed. I believe I was looking up and watching for the reaction from members of committee. It is not my intention to cut off debate on it; I'll leave it up to the honourable minister . The Honourable Minister. MR. JORGENSON: Well, I have no comment to make.

The member has made his presentation; I have listened to it and we have noted it. MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)(1) - the Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: I'd just be interested in knowing whether that point of view was shared . MR. JORGENSON: We are now on (b)(1)The Insurance Branch . MR. CORRIN: How convenient. Well , let 's not discuss it. I've been through that before these Estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)(1)-pass - the Honourable Member for Wellington . My apologies - the Honourable Member for Wolseley . MR.

WILSON: Would the Minister or somebody be able to explain to myself or the general public, what Miss Emily Stamp does, I believe her title is, Superintendent of Insurance? It seemed to me that during the May 25th hail and wind damage storm , that a number of citizens ran into difficulties attempting to get insurance companies to cover the wind and hail damages that was envisioned by the general public and it seemed that upon examination by myself, that under this Branch, Insurance Branch , which I assume that the Superintendent of Insurance comes under ; I don't know .

Well, it seemed to be it was the licencing of insurance companies, agents and adjustors, but there didn't seem to be anything to deal with matters of problems within the industry other than suggesting that the people hire a lawyer. It would seem to me that whenever you licence a particular branch of the business sector, and certainly my business is licenced and we're subject to licence and control, I wonder why the Insurance Branch wouldn't have licencing and some measure of control? Is there some form of control? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR.

JORGENSON: Well, the office of the Superintendent of Insurance responsibility is the supervision of the three major Acts in connection with the insurance industry : The Insuranc e Act ; The Insurance Corporation Tax Act; and The Fire Protection Tax Act. The office of the Superintendent of Insurance does not involve itself in the claims . That is a matter of contract between the insured and the insurer. MR. WILSON: The letter I have in front of me says that her role is to make sure that insurance agents and adjustors - and I assume this means Autopac agents - are reasonably knowledgable in insurance matters .

By that I mean would the consumer be able to phone up any particular insurance agency and be able to get complete details as to what type of insurance is best for them? 4195

Monday, May 14, 1979 In other words, maybe what I am suggesting is there be a review of the insurance agents that exist in the City of Winnipeg with the idea of an upgrading or a re-education, because so many people do not carry enough insurance and I'd like to use the analogy "buy or beware" because there is very littlE! difference in a basic policy from one insurance company to the other.

And it is my opinion that to the general public, especially the homeowner , that for very few more dollars they can get adequatH coverage; such as $4 or $10 a year they can get glass coverage, which the general policy does not cover. So when you go away for a holiday and come back and some vandals have broken every window in your house, for $4 a year that seems to me to be pretty good coverage.

But the average citizen does not realize that and their basic policy doesn't cover it, so it's my own personal opinion, but I would like to see the insurance agents be given a re-education and an upgrading so that they can properly deal with the general public pertaining to their needs and desires pertaining to their homeowner's policy . And I wonder, now that the government is in the insurance business , do our particular staff people take some sort of training course? MR. CHJIURMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. HAIIIUSCHAK: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman . MR.

CHJ"RMAN: The Member for Burrows on a Point of Order. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes. I believe the Honourable Member for Wolseley was quoting from a letter , as he had indicated , and I believe that our rules also require one to table a copy of a letter from which one is quoting. MR. CHJIIIRMAN: It is my understanding that if quotations taken from a letter or printed material that it is supposed to be tabled . The Member for Wolseley . MR. WIU)ON: Well, I did not, Mr. Chairman , read the contents of a letter into the record.

I simply said that it was suggested to me in a letter from the Superintendent of Insurance that insurance agents and adjustors are required or suggested to have reasonable knowledge in insurance matters within the Province of Manitoba . MR. CH,IIRMAN: The Member for Burrows does not have a point of order. MR. HANUSCHAK: That's fine, Mr. Chairman . I believe the Honourable Member for Wolseley made his position quite clear that he was not quoting from a letter . It was a fabrication from whatever source . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Inkster . MR. GREEN: Mr.

Chairman, on the point of order, if the honourab le member says that he has a letter and refers to it in debate , then he is supposed to table that letter. It's not necessary to $ table it if he reads it into the record . If you read it all, then we know what it says, but if you are referring to a letter as part of your argument, then with the greatest of respect , that we've discussed that this year, then you are supposed to table the letter . MR. WIU)ON : I have no objection. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee take note, the lette r is tabled . (bX1)- pass - the Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman , under the explanatory note under

Section 2., it says that it advises on policy for regulation and control of the insurance industry I'm not entirely clear from that who is advising whom . Perhaps the minister can so advise me. MR. JOR<;ENSON: Well , the Insurance Branch provides for examination of the insurance agents , who are acting, the licensing of the insurance companies and the general supervision of the insurance industry in the province of Manitoba . 4196

., Monday, May 14, 1979 MR. WALDING: Mr. Chai rman, I really wasn 't refe rring to the Insurance Branch; I was referring to the explanatory notes under Consumers ' Bureau, where it says, "Advises on policy for the regulation and control of the Insurance Industry ." Now, is it the Insurance Branch that is advising the Minister on policy, is it the Consumers' Bureau that is advising the Minister on policy? MR. JORGENSON: It is the Insurance Branch that is advising the Minister. MR.

WALDING: Could the Minister outline to the Committee what is the present policy on the regulation and control of the Insurance Industry? MR. JORGENSON: I'm sorry, I didn't get that question . MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the Member for St. Vital please repeat. MR. WALDING: Could the Minister, Mr. Chairman, advise the committee on what is the present government or Minister 's policy on the regulation and control of the insurance industry . MR. JORGENSON: It's provided for in the legislation governing the insurance industry; there are three specific Acts regulating the insurance industry. MR.

WALDING: Is the Minister indicating then that the government has no policy on this matter, other than what is contained within the respective Acts? MR. JORGENSON: The policy :,s provided in the legislation and if policy directions are to change, then it simply means that the legislation will have to be changed. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, the House has been advised that the government is investigating or looking into or studying or reviewing MPIC's coverage of car insurance and considering in what way it can be broadened to involve the private insurance industry.

I would like to ask the Minister whether that review is being done within this department or elsewhere within the government and if elsewhere, where? MR. JORGENSON: No, Mr. Chairman, the Insurance Branch has nothing to do with the government insurance; it regulates only the private insurance industry. MR. WALDING: I'll ask the question again , Mr. Chairman . Is this review of MPIC and the possible broadening of it to include the private insurance industry being done in this particular department under this Minister or is it being done elsewhere within the government and , if so, where in the government? MR.

JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, it is not being done by this department or this branch of the government. Now, I can't tell my honourable friend, he'll have to ask somebody else as to where that examination is taking place . MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)(1)-pass - the Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Just one small question , Mr. Chairman, and that's the reference here to the The Insurance Corporation Tax Act, and I'm wondering why it is that this department is administering The Tax Act and why it doesn't come under the Department of Finance? MR.

JORGENSON: I'm informed that it's a tax on the premiums written on the insurance and all that information is filed with the office of the Department of Insurance . MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)(1)-pass; (b)(2)-pass; (b)-pass. Resolution 27:

Be it resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $938,700 for Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Resolution 28, 3.(a)-pass; 3.(b)-pass; 3-pass. Resolution 28:

Be it resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $118,800 for Consumer and Corporate Affairs- pass. Resolution 29, 4.(a)-pass - the Member for Elmwood. 4197

Monday, May 14, 1979 MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I mentioned this earlier and I wanted to discuss it with the Minister now and that is a problem encountered by dozens of Manitobans who apparently have been paying develope rs up to $18,000 for property in the Lake of the Woods and some of them now discover that they may not be able to build anything on this property.

The reason I raise this to the Minister is that we are dealing essentially with Manitobans purchasing; we are dealing with lawyers who are apparently Manitoba lawyers who don't know the Ontario law and we are dealing with developers who, if they are not Manitobans , have what is described here on March 2nd in the Tribune as having Manitoba affiliations . So, I just wanted to review this with the Minister. A spokesman in the Ministry of Natural Resources office in Kenora says he is getting swamped by people, some of whom can lose their entire life's savings.

These people are angry , frustrated , they have been duped by developers with questionable scruples and apparently the basic mechanism and problem for them is what is. called a tenant-in-common basis, that is a device rn which up to 20 people will join to buy a parcel of land that hasn't been subdivided and that is the crux of the problem. to As a r·esult of complaints, the Ontario Government has to apparently put a halt to development in the area until the to parcels are properly subdivided under requirements laid down in e to The Provincial Planning Act. So, to continue here in this

article , to it said : " Many of the people who are completing deals to buy ues pieces of land without consulting lawyers well versed in Ontario law end up with contrac ts that may not be legally binding . Some are under the misconception the land is subdivided," and this fellow says, from the Ontario Government , that buying property on a tenant-i n-common basis just doesn't work. You don 't really own anything because you don't have solid title . He says of course again it is a case of caveat emptor, buyer beware , and he recommends that purchasers contact lawyers qualified to practise law in Ontario .

So I'm saying there was a flurry of these cases. Now, I don 't know whether the department had any complaints in this regard but I say to the Minister that you have here again people who are Manitoba citizens buying property just over the border ; you have Manitoba lawyers apparently unfamiliar with Ontario law processing these deals, or advising people with disastrous results, and you have developers who are eithe r Manitoba developers or developers with Manitoba affiliations . Now, the Ontario government has cracked the whip here and halted further development .

That 's there action, but in view of other people involved , I'm thinking particularly of citizens who are buying property . Is there any protection that the Minister can provide so that people won 't be preyed on by unscrupulous developers in this regard? MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman , the matter has been brought to the attention of the Securities Commission and an investigation has been conducted . We're now awaiting transcripts of that investigation.

In addition to that, the registrars in the Province of Ontario are working very closely with our people in an attempt to try and get to the root of this particular pro blem . MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)-pass - the Member for Wolseley . .. MR. WILSON: Under the Securities Commission, I wonder if Mr. Peden or others could explain, ~ in the review of the Manitoba mineral resources an attempt was made to check out with different brokerage houses some of the people that the government was in business with and none of them seemed to be listed anywhere . I wonder, what is the general practice as to companies?

Do they come to the Securities Commission to be listed in Manitoba , or generally not? In other words , could you possibly, through you to the Minister, describe what the Winnipeg Stock Exchange is and why the purpose of its existence? MR. JORGENSON: Well , it appears as though there is some difficulty in attempting to determine just precisely what my honourable friend is after. The Stock Exchange is somewhat apart from these comanies that appear before the Securities Commission for registration , and I wonder if my honourable friend could . . . MR. WILSON: Mr.

Chairman , it's sometimes very difficult to - I'm wondering if some of these new companies that are going to come forward because of the sort of small bush fire in oil leases that is taking place in the Virden area . Would somebody like New Scope Resources come before the Manitoba Securities Comm ission? MR. JORGENSON: Yes, they would , it's conceivable , but we have not had an application as yet from them. 4198 ..

·• • .. • • .. - Monday, May 14, 1979 MR. WILSON: My concern is why do these people and/or companies have to go to Toronto, Calgary, or Vancou ver , to put together their corporation or their package when we have a Securities Commission here? MR. JORGENSON: Well, I wonder if my honourable friend could - I'm not Quite clear in just precisely what he's attempting to get at yet. It's very difficult for me to answer until I know. MR.

WILSON: Then maybe I'll possibly correspond with the department, except I did want to put it on the record that there seems to be an indication from the private sector that it is far too cumbersome and too much red tape to deal with the Manitoba Securities Commission vis-a-vis the Ontario Securities Commission, so the result is companies, such as Shelter Corporation and others , go down east to become incorporated and then they come back here and sell MURBs in Calgary and MURBs here and wherever, but it just seems to me that when you. ask them how come they didn't incorporate or whatever it was in Manitoba, they say there's too much red tape here and I must confess I haven't got my file with me so I can't be more specific, but I will attempt to correspond with the Minister if there's any interest to be shown in these seemingly off-handed remarks by people who I have wondered why they didn 't have their base of operations here in Manitoba right from the start. / - MR.

JORGENSON: Of course, Mr. Chairman, we are concerned if people prefer to register in another province other than Manitoba , and more particularly concerned if what my honourable friend says is true, that it's more difficult, but I find that rather difficult to believe because we're operating under almost exactly the same type of legislat ion as they're operating under in Ontario. If my honourable friend wants to pursue it a little further by correspondence, I would be happy to look into it a little further. MR.

WILSON: Then in dealing with these, I guess the matters that I'm going to raise would probably be too far removed that the Minister would be able to objectively comment on them, so I will correspond . It's just that I was moved to interest because of the Manitoba Mineral Resources Limited Report in which they listed companies, such as Copperhead Oil, Great Northern Oil, Berry Petroleum, and CDC Oil and Gas, and I attempted to find out from stockbrokers who these people were that the government was in partnerships with , and they didn 't seem to be listed anywhere.

So I wondered if at some point in time, if they were oil exploration companies within the Province of Manitoba, do they have to go to the Manitoba Securities Commission , and any of those that are selling - maybe my question is, are any of these companies that are based in the Virden area that sell a new issue, do they come before the Manitoba Securities Commission?

In other words, if, for instance - I'll use New Scope Resources, if it turns out to be, if I can use the common man's jargon, a moose pasture, has the public had the protection that the Manitoba Securities Commission looked at what they were offering to the public in their initial offering? MR. JORGENSON: Yes, Mr. Chairman. The public do have protection under The Securities Act, and that protection has been afforded for a number of years. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)-pass; 4.(b)-pass; 4.-pass ; Resolution 29: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $428 ,700 for Consumer and Corporate Affairs-pass; Resolution 30: 5.(a)-pass - the Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister what services are provided to members of the Legislature by the Public Information Services . JORGENSON: Well, I'm sure that my honourable friend is aware of the kind of services that Public Information Services provide, but what he is asking is what benefit do the members get from the Public Information Services?

The Public Information Services are intended to provide information to the public in general but my honou rable friend gets copies of news releases and other material that is put out by the Information Service Bureau and is kept advised on government programs in that fashion . MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I am aware of the services that this branch performs for the government and for members of the Treasury Bench . I'd like to ask what services it provides for other members of the Legislature. 4199

Monday, May 14, 1919 MR. JORGENSON: Well, the role is not changed. I presume it would be the same kind of services provided for the previous administration and for the previous members of the Legislature whatever role that they occupy . Is my honourable friend suggesting that the role now should change? MR. WAtDING: Mr. Chairman, I was never sure under the previous administration, what services this Branch provided for members other than the Cabinet Ministe rs. Perhaps the Minister would be good enough to advise the Committee just what they are. MR.

JORGENSON: Well , an essential part of the operation of this Legislature is the provision to the publ ic of information which originates within the departments of government or within the Legislature. It's part and parcel of the entire democ ratic process, providing news in addition to the news media who provide information on a daily basis , the specific items of interest are distributed to the weekly or to the newspapers across this province .

In many cases newspapers in some of the outlying areas of the province where there are no daily newspapers, this is the only contact that they have with government since they simply can't all afford to have representatives here in the pres s gallery. So it does provide a service that is widely used by newspapers throughout the province , through weekly newspapers throughout the province. MR. WALDING: . .. may be a little more specific, Mr.

Chairman, if the government should announce ... ·C a new policy the Information Services Branch produces a number of press releases and mails them out to its mailing list of these rural newspapers that the Minister has mentioned. In the event that .• the Lead·er of the Opposition would wish to make a statement on that same policy and produced a press release, would the Information Services perform that same service for him by mailing that ~ news reiHase out to the same rural newspapers? MR.

JORGENSON: Not any more than they did under the previous administration. -(lnterjection) Or the administration befo re that. My honourable friend can ask these questions and I know that he is doing so because he has a particular point that he wants to make but I want to remind him that the Information Services has been in existence for a number of years and there hasn't been that much of a change in the kind of service that they're providing. If my honourable friend now is suggesting because they are on the left of Mr.

Speaker, that there should be a change in that policy, that's one matter and I wish he would make that clear if that's what he is suggesting. MR. WALDING: I was prompted to ask the last question, Mr. Chairman, when the Minister said what a fine service this is and a contribution to the democratic process and the Parliamentary system in disseminating this information. I am sure that he would not like that to be entirely one-sided that other members of the Legislature would not have the same opportunity to get out their particular points of view .

If he says that there is no change from the previous policy I will accept that. Can he tell me whether that policy or that refusal to send out news releases from the Opposition also applies to the other media too? MR. JORGENSON: I'm not sure that I follow my honourable friend correctly . Whether it applies to radio and television is that what my honourable friend is suggesting? The policy is the same . MR. WALDING: ... to recognize the member at the end of the table who seems to have something to say, I will yield to him , Mr. Chairman, since . .. MR. CHA,IRMAN: Orde r please. I recognized the Member for St.

Vital. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, I might just add in connection with the point my honourable friend has been making, that just in the last few weeks , if my honourable friends have some doubt about the value, and I know that that feeling does exist among some members about the value of the Information Services from my point of view at least, that doubt was dispelled during the recent crisis in the Red River Valley .

The ability to be able to provide accurate information was so essential during the course of the flood in the Red River Valley , to be sure that the public were informed prec isely as to the nature of the catastrophe that was going to be visited upon them, • to take the steps that were necessary, and to advise on what the government policies were , and there had to be government policies because it was the government that was responsible for the .... evacuation and for the maintenance of the flood control measures that were in existence in the Valley , without the Publi c Information Services, in this one instance - I'm not saying that that is the only instance in which it has more than demonstrated its value as a service within the government, 4200

• .. • • Monday, May 14, 1979 but t hat is certain ly one instance wher e it has more than justified its existence . MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, 1 never questioned or doubted the existence or the benefi ts of th is partic ular branch . In fact I recall it's the membe rs of the Minister' s Party when they were in Opp osit ion that they questioned the expendi tu res under th is particular appropria tion. In fact I can recall them referring to this particular Branch as a propaganda serv ices rather than informati on servic es, so I'm not sugge sting it be don e a way wit h. I recognize the value of it.

All that I was suggesting to the Minister is that the mechanism, the expe rtise within the department of dissemin ating thi s info rmation really ought to be available to other membe rs of the House.

I'm not aski ng that thi s particular Branch should write news releases for the Oppos ition , or tell the public how brill iant and praisewo rthy the Opposition is, all I was suggest ing to the Minister is that the if the Opposition should provide its own news release, why is it not possib le for that department to make that particular news releas e as available to the rural newspape rs, starved as they are for news . .. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Could we have one speaker at a time. The Honourable Minister . MR.

JORGENSON: Perhaps it's an obv ious point , but there is one point that I think I should make to my honourable friend, is that the Information Services Branch comes under the Department of Government; it does not come under the Legislat ure. If it was a branch of the Legisla ture, then my honourable friend would have a valid point. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman , the Ministe r knows very well that members of the Legislature make use of many government departments for a number of different reasons .

There are many people within all departments whom MLAs can contact for information and advice, and a number of different things , none of which come under the Legislative Branc h as such. This, as he rightly points out , is a branch that comes under the Consumer and Corporate Affairs, but he still hasn't answered the question as to why this parti cula r rather minor service could not be made available to the Leader of the Opposition or other Opposit ion members , simply as a mechanical service of getting this other point of view out to - particularly to rural newspapers . MR.

JORGENSON: My honourable friend makes a point that other branches of government are available to members of the Legislature , and that is a fact . They are available to members of the Legislature who wish to secure informat ion. That same service is available to my honourable friends through the Public Information Service. He can secure information from the Service . MR. WALDING: The Minister still has not answered the point that I made or the question that I put to him as to why the mechanism of this department could not be made available to members of the Legislature, other than members of the government .

If I could just make one little point. The Ministe Minister said , "Well , it was not done before" , and I have heard that argument from a number of other Ministers on other topics but does that mean that it was right because we did it before . I mean , it's quite possible that the New Democratic Party , not being perfect, has possibly made a few errors or mistakes in the past. MR. JORGENSON: Then I am going to leave this particular change in. the policy to my honourable friends in the unlikely event that they ever get back in power. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Wolseley . Order , please .

The Member for Wolseley . MR. WILSON: I wondered , the Public Information Services, has any thought been given in the last ~ few years to having politically active people subscribe to the Informat ion Services news releases that come out . By that I mean several of my constituents get a daily flow of stuff coming in from Hansard from both here and from the Ottawa people , and I wondered , since this particular information comes out prior to Hansard it seems , would the pub lic . . .

It says here " provide information to the public ." Is there any or has there been any indication that the public could buy this service? Is there any charge to anyone that gets this information , or is it entirely free? - MR. JORGENSON: Well, my honourable friend asks if it's possible for the public, in general , to subscribe to the Information Servic es bulletins . There was a rather substantial mailing list that had been growing over the years, and we discovered a good many of the een people who were getting these bulletins were really not wanting them and it was costing the taxpayer a considerable amount 4201

Monday, May 14, 1979 of money to mail them out, so we cut that list down as a money-saving measure and limited it to the newspapers and the media , so that they are now the only ones that are receiving it. edia, so that they are Now, my honourable friend makes a suggestion that the public in general can subscribe to it, and I am not completely adverse to c entertaining that suggestion .

I see some difficulties in the process but we've had a look at it and would be quite happy to examine it again to see if, first of all, if there is a sufficient ues demand to warrant that sort of policy and , if there is, we will be happy to entertain it in practice. MR. WIU;ON: Then this information goes to the media and members of the Legislature . Can you tell me how many copies go out each, if I could use the term, issue? I mean, how many envelopes go out? MR. JOR<;ENSON: I am advised that there are about 840 that go out on each mailing at the present time. MR.

WIU;ON: Well, then , in deal ing with this very subject, I have been less than happy at this. When I was examining the former governmen t I had the feeling that they used this as sort of a semi-propaganda arm . to talk about their achievements , whether they were clouded or not.

And while the writing seemed to be reasonably fair , it seemed to be written by someone that was almost a newspaper person , because invariably, because of reasons or whatever , sometimes these news releases appeared verbat im in the newspaper, which indicated that the editorial staff of the newspapers or the reporters simply attached this to their material they turned in to the newspaper when they went back . -(Interjection)- Well , the Member for Minnedosa is going to suggest somethin~J. but I was going to suggest that I would like to see the Public Information Services talk about government achievements because I think all of us are concerned about the slogan "Come to Manitoba ." We're trying to improve the economy, and I don't think any members opposite would want to stand in our way of improving the economy .

But I have seen nothing in the Information Services to indicate that the government had rang up the till to the tune of $500,000 in recent oil leases in the Virden area. To me that was a significan t achievement . The new interest in oil leases and the oil activity in southwestern Manitoba to me is an achievement. It would seem to me that Manitoba 's discovery with Ganges in the Trout Lake area of some 7 million tons, at the present price of world nickel, copper and what have you , would be a significant achievement.

How many people know there is a new mine being built and how many people know that Noranda is drilling in Manitoba? All these secrets that are going on that nobody seems to want to tell anybody about. And the newspaper reporters aren 't going to tell you, because they 're going by the government Information Services . So when are we going to be able to create a Public Information Services that is truly an achievement arm of the government , and that's what I would like to see; a new thrust in the next couple of years of this service becoming an achievement arm for a governme nt. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWI.EY: Mr. Chai rman , I would just to like to receive some indication from the Minister as to the terms of reference under which the Public Informat ion Services operates. 1 share some sympathy with the Member for St. Vital in his questioning as to whether or not this particular branch is useful or not.

I think that some means is necessary to distribute material that is strictly pertinent to decisions by government in a way that Manitobans can receive that material, but 1 think there is a very, very fine line as to when that dissemination of material becomes of a nature that is sheer propaganda and aimed at attaining certain political purposes or glorifying members of Cabinet , the First Minister , etc .

I had hoped to have the releases in front of me, but 1 do know that it is a fact that during the past year there have been numerous occasions in which photographs have been included within the material, highlighting the presence of the First Minister or members of Cabinet at various public functions in which they have participated. It seems to me that to request public moneys for the dissemination of material of a strictly informatio nal nature is one item , but when that material is accompanied by photographs with the expectation that the weekly will publish that material.

I must say, and I wish I had the photographs in front of me; some of them appeared to me to be rather assinine and I will be getting examples and will forward them on to the Minister, of the type of use of Public Information Services. 1 was trying to recall , as debate ranged back and forth between the Member for St. Vital and the Minister , whether or not , since he does establish his operations of the Service so much on 4202 ..

.. Monday, May 14, 1979 the basis of what took place in previous years during the New Democ ratic period of government, whether or not such a wide, wide dissemination of photographs and etc. was utilized. I do not recall , personally, such but that certainly appears to be the case now and I would like some comment , some discussion from the Minister , as when information ceases and when the use of Public Info rma tion Services commences to take on a political or partisan orientation or simply a matte r of propagan dizing the activities of certain Ministers at certain function s. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Chairman, the view is entirely subjective. When you're in the Opposition , anything that is printed by the Information Services appears to be propaganda; when you're on the government side, then it is informat ion. And over the years th at has always been the position that has been taken by successive governments and successive oppositions. Now, in respe ct to my honourable friend's criticism regarding photographs, that policy began several years ago at the specific requests of the Weekly Newspaper Association and has been carried on because they feel it is of benefit to them . MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman, whether or not it was commenced at the initiative - and I have no way of personally being aware of the ues background of this - whether it was requested at the request of the weekly newspapers or the Winnipeg Tribune, or the television media, or whatever it be, the fact is that you are requesting members of the Legislature to approve funds, part of those funds which are used for that purpose, and I do not believe that that sort of service is the type of service that was at all intended in respect to this service . And here I try to present a line between what the Member for St.

Vital was saying in that I think there is a need for some dissemination of informat ion, but I believe that this has gone beyond the limits of purely information provis ion. I will not accept from the Minister any excuse that it started - if it did in fact start - in 1976 or 1977. I believe that if it had come to my attention I would have said something about it then. If in fact it did start back in 1976 or 1977, as the Member for St. Vital said, things happened in the past that now ought to be corrected if in fact , it did start during that period of time.

I have certainly noticed, and maybe because , as the minister says, one notices things more from opposition than from government, but I've certainly noticed the use of public information service for this purpose more now , and in a more frequent way, than I've ever observed. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5. (a) - the Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Yes, I'd be interested to know how many new people have come on the staff, or -t how many people have been replaced on the staff for any purpose or any reason, since October, 1977. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR.

JORGENSON: There have been no additional personnel coming on staff . There has been one replacement when Lee Sage resigned. There has been one replacement. MR. CORRIN: Is it then the case that all the members of the staff are as was in October, 1977 4 with the exception of one individual who replaced Mr. Sage. • MR. JORGENSON: That is right, Mr. Chairman. .. • MR. CORRIN: That would include the position of the director, would it, Mr. Chairman? MR. JORGENSON: There has been no change . MR, CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, in the publicity surrounding the flood fighting and the tours of Southern Manitoba and so on, I'm just curious as to the . . . Were helicopters provided for the media, and were they ordered by Information Services? MR. JORGENSON: No. The only people , outside of private people, the only people who had the authority to operate in that area and to rent helicopters were EMO themselves. MR. DOERN: Just for information, did EMO provide helicopters for the media? 4203

Monda y, May 1 4, 1979 MR. JOIRGENSON: Well, when a helicopter is rented to move out to the area, if there is space availabh~ and almost invariably there was, then the media were permitted to accom pany the party that went out. MR. DOIERN: Were any of these arrangements made again? Are you saying that

whereas ordinarily arrangements of this kind would be made by the Information Services, that they were totally under the aegis of EMO or was there some kind of co-operation or dual effort? MR. JOFIGENSON: It was essentially co-operation between the Information Services and EMO. The information that was published by the Information Services was provided by EMO. MR.

DOERN: I assume in some instances there were groups of three helicopters flying around , and is the minister saying that there were no allocations for press - it was just a case of one ~ helicopter had one or two people, and if they could take six or eight press they could then climb aboard? MR.

JORGENSON: In response to my honourable friend 's question -when helicopters were rented to move into any one of the disaster areas , space was provided for the Information Services, because it became a very important part of the whole flood-fighting operation in providing the information that we felt was necessary in order to effectively inform people of what was necessary for them ~ to do in order to co-operate with the government in minimizing the amount of damage that was done by the flood. MR. DOERN: I'm just trying to get clear what the minister is saying here.

He said in the first instance, if there was room available members of the media could go along . He just said that there was definitely space provided for members of Information Services . Did he mean, that's what he said , did he mean that there was space available for members of Information Services and the media , in the broad sense? I take it for granted that Information Services would ordinarily go along , as ~ an arm of government . I'm asking whether there is also six, eight , ten , twelve spaces allocated to the media? MR. JORGENSON: Yes.

There were occasions when space was provided for the press, not only by EMO but by the Army as well. On several occasions when Army helicopters were used , for example , when the Governor-General went out, it was an Army helicopter that provided space . MR. DOERN: Does the minister have any information about the arrangements made for the Leader of the Opposition, Joseph Clar k? Is he familiar with those arrangements? oe MR. JORGENSON: I have no idea how they made their arrangeme nts. They didn't make them through EMO.

If that particular party made arrangement s for renting of helicopters they did it themselves , and paid for it themselves . MR. DOE:RN: They weren 't EMO helicopters as such . MR. JOR:GENSON: EMO has no helicopters . MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(a)-pass ; 5.(b)-pass ; 5.-pass . The Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: It seems to me that the Member for Minnedosa has been wanting your attention for some time. MR. CHA1IRMAN: Order please . 5.-pass. Resolution 30: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $456 ,200 for Consumer and Corporate Affairs-pass .

Resolution 31 , Item 6.(a)-pass ; 6.(b)-pass ; 6.-pass . Resolution 31: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $484,000 for Cons mer and Corporate Affairs-pass . Resolution 32, Item 7.(aX1)-pass ; (aX2)-pass ; (a)-pass; (bX1)- pass; (bX2)-pass; (b)-pass; pardon me, apologies of comm ittee ; (bX3)- pass; (b)-pass; (c)-pass ; (dX1) - the Member for ;.. St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Could we have an explanation of this item , what the $14,000 was for last year 4204

Monday, May 14, 1979 and why there is nothing for this year? MR. JORGENSON: The reason for that is that there was a deficit in the past year which we do not anticipate this year. We anticipate that the sale of the Revised Statutes and Consolidation will pay for itself this year.: My honourable friend was asking if there was any plans for changes in MR. WALDING: Does this item have any connection with a request from a r changes in certain Mr. Forest for some statutes in French? h a request from a r changes in MR. JORGENSON: Not whatsoever .

What it has to do is that there was very hanges in little • legislation that had to be consolidated in the past Session, and hanges in so therefore the expenses were not as great. n the past Session, and hanges in .... MR. CHAIRMAN: (c)-pass; (d)(1)-pass; (d)(2) - the Member for St. hanges in Johns. AN: (c)-pass; (d)(1)-pass; (d)(2) - the Member for St. hanges in MR. CHERNIACK: I'm interested in having the minister explain the nahanges in ture of this item, and the plans of the government in respect thereto . hanges in • MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Johns is referring to Item (d). o. hanges in MR.

CHERNIACK: 'D' for dog, that's the one that . . . Is that right? hanges in MR. CHAIRMAN: That's right. t's the one that .. . Is that right? hanges in MR. CHERNIACK: Yes. Well, that's what I meant, Sir . that right? hanges in MR. JORGENSON: My honourable friend was asking if there was any plans for changes in y the advertising office? ..,. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I asked for elaboration on the nature of this

section beside him, and whether there are any plans for change . • MR. JORGENSON: Well, the role of the Advertising Audit Office has not changed. It's established primarily to provide placement service for the government, and to provide internal control mechanism over total government advertising cost. MR. CHERNIACK: The minister spelled out. There was a two-part question. The other was, what are the government's plans in that connection? He didn't answer that . MR. JORGENSON: Well, the government's plan is not to change the function of the Advertising Audit Office. It will carry on the way it has in the past.

MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr. Chairman, as I recall it, back in 1969-1970, we found that there were certain account agencies, which were given the opportunity to look .after advertising for various different departments of government. And there was then an effort made, and I think a successful one, to co-ordinate all of the advertising in such a way, firstly , to distribute or redistribute equitably, the agencies and the accounts they were to handle; and secondly, to make an effort to reduce costs by reducingtthe expenditure in relation to the commission that was formerly paid to the agencies.

The reason I ask the minister is that I would like elaboration on what is the system now, which they do not intend ·to change? MR. JORGENSON: Well, the member has described the system, and the Advertising Audit Office will carry on its function as it has in past years . There's no change contemplated in the method in which it's carrying out its function. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr. Chairman, I am not familiar with the present system to the extent that I can just accept that there's no change . I do not fully know the present system. I want to know, what are the economies?

What are the advantages of this operation, recognizing as I think the minister would, that this was not in place , this kind of a system was not in place under the previous Conservative government ; and although I know changes took place, I am not up to date 4205

Monday, May 14, 1979 on the present method of operation or justification. MR. JORGENSON: Well, I might, if I may be permitted, the 1978 Annual Report gives an account on how the Advertising Audit Office operates; and if I may just quote from that: "In addition to buying and paying for space and time in the media, the Advertising Audit Office permits departments to call upon the expertise of the staff for assistance in media planning and costing . This assistance at no charge is invaluable to those officers responsible for providing tentative promotions for ministerial approval.

The office also offers advice on how to prepare copy for print and broadcast . The Advertising Audit Office liaises with the departments , advertising agencies and media. The office negotiates rates, arranges schedules of advertising dates , best possible positions and times, makes copy changes, make goods and credits. It reduces the cost of advertising for the departments through volume buying, cash discounts for prompt payments and by rebating earned commissions to the de~partments ." MR. CHERNIACK: Well , Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that description read to us by the minister .

Does he then confirm that there are savings on the basis that the advantages that were formerly available to the private advertising agencies, as their compensation for the work is now being benefited to this department of Advertising Audit? MR. JORGENSON: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHERNIACK: Does that then mean that when a certain agency , and I don 't know the name of it but I assume that one of the major agencies used by government would be in the Department of Tourism - there may be others but that would be one large one - that that agency is on a fee-for-service basis? MR. JORC~ENSON: Yes.

Fee-fo r-service for creative development . MR. CHERNIACK: Does that then mean that they bill this department and are paid under (dX3)? MR. JOR<;ENSON: Yes. We pay for the placement of the advertising . The department pays for the professional fees. MR. CHERNIACK: Just clarification , Mr. Chairman, does the Minister mean that when an advertisement is placed in some magazine or the other by the Department of Tourism that that expenditu re comes under (dX3)? MR. JORGENSON: Only for the space , Mr. Chairman . RR.

CHERNIACK: Then that means that the agency puts in its art - well , the agency does the writing, the prose if you call it that , and the photography or whatever drawing and colour is involved - that it does that on a fee-for-service which means that they then charge their cost, I suppose we could say of labour with some kind of a markup, to government and , if so, who pays that , under which department is it paid? MR. JORGiENSON: The department pays for it, the department that is using it, the department as involved. . - MR.

CHEFINIACK: Again using my example of the Department of Tourism and let us say Time Magazine , as I understand it then , the cost of the space is charged to (dX3), here, but the cost of preparing the nature and appearance of the materia l is charged to the department. • MR. JORGENSON: Yes, that's right , Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHEFINIACK: 1 find that odd because I should think that Tourism , which I suspect is one of the big users of advertising , should be showing in its budget the cost of advertising tourism for Manitoba, and that 's why I'm rather surprised that the cost of preparation of the advertising, the appea rance of it, is charged to the department but not the space . Why shouldn 't the space ~ be charged that way? MR. JORGIENSON: It is in the example that my honourable friend quoted ; it is in the Tourism budget. 4206

... ;:: Monday, May 14, 1979 If my honourable friend looks at (d)(3), you will notice there is a sum of $2,060,000 and indicates that it is recoverable from the departments and agencies , that same amount. MR. CHERNIACK: I appreciate that. I now see that under Tourism , Item 2.(

b) provides well over a million, a million and a third dollars for Other Expenditures in the Tourism Branch and I imagine that a substantial part of that would be credited or charge d under this item (d)(4) and that therefore the net $96,000 would be and is the salaries, the $96,200, which means to me that not only is the artwork, if we can call it that , char ged to the department but so is the space charged to the department but is purchased through this department.

Could one say generally then that there must be about, taking the gross commission of 15 percent and deducting the artwork from that , that there must be at least a 10 percent saving on this $2 million of expenditure . MR. JORGENSON: I'm not able to precisely determine the saving but I wouldn't be surprised if my honourable friend may be reasonably close to being correct. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , I want to thank the Minister for draw ing to my attention his own report.

It does give for last year, to the dollar, an estimate of net savings of being $185,392, plus, I think, another $67,000, so that on that basis, government activity is saving substantial money as compared with the old Conservative approach which was to turn over all the wo.rk and the profits to private advertising agencies. I think that is a fair conclusion which the Minister may want to accept or reject, happily or otherw ise. MR.

JORGENSON: I'm quite prepared to concede to my honourable friend that the operations of the Advertising Audit office has been of benefit to not only the departments that use its facilities for advertising purposes but also to the taxpayers because there has been a substantial saving. MR.

CHERNIACK: I have to carry that a bit further and suggest that after deducting this net of, 1 think, $96,200, which is the straightforward expense of the department , that the difference is probably the profit that would have been paid otherwise to the advertis ing agencies and also that the advertising agencies no doubt , on the fee-for-service basis, had a profit on the services supplied to government. Is that a fair assumption? MR. JORGENSON: Well, partly, but there is another factor that is involved here.

The fact that we do bulk buying in material also effects some sort of a saving and that will be reflected in that total amount. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman , it is not before us, but I am suggesting an analogy that when the previous government changed the Conservative policy of having outs ide auditors do audits for government agencies, that there was a saving there which is now being set aside by the present Conservative government's decision to farm out or parcel out audits to private agencies and I'm wondering whether this Minister would care to respond, if he has any responsibility for any of the agencies of government, to tell us whether he is aware of the cost paid to private auditors.

This may not be on point; it may have to wait for his salary, but I would appreciate if he would just indicate what private auditors are now being used for boards that come under his jurisdiction, and then we could leave that for the Salary. MR. JORGENSON: I don 't believe we have any. MR. CHERNIACK:Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I was just commenting that it is unfortunate from our ., point of view that we have come near the end of the Estimates where we have come to one of the last Ministers who apparently doesn't have any Crown agencies reporting to him and therefore is not accountable for the fees payable to private auditors and we'll have to look for another opportunity to go into that feature of government expenditures and program . Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: (d) (1) - the Member for St . Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder , could the Minister advise the committee what positions were covered under this line last year and this year? 4207

Monday, May 14, 1979 MR. JORGENSON: What positio ns . . . ? MR. CHAiftMAN: Would the Member for St. Vital please repeat. MR. WALDING: I would like the Minister to tell the committee what positions were covered by this item , (dX1) last year and this year . MR. JORGENSON: There is a director of the Advertising Audit Office , a Clerk 5, a second Clerk 5, an accounting clerk , a second accounting clerk, and one contingency term clerical, part-time . MR. WALUING: Was that list for last year? MR. JORGENSON: It's the same as last year; this year's complement is the same. MR. WALiliNG: My next question is, Mr.

Chairman, why is there a . reducti on in the salaries if it's the same number of persons? MR. JORGENSON: I am informed that one of the media buyers resigned the early part of the year and has been replaced but at a lower salary. -. MR. WALIDING: So the re were five people employed in this particular

section last year and five ~ will continue to be hired for the coming year, is that correct? MR. JORc:;ENSON: Six with the term employment . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR.,o_g): I move your next item , Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: (dX1)-pass; (dX2)-pass; (dX3)-pass - the Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman , I wonder if the Minister would give us a breakdown either o (3) or (4) as to which departments and how much did it get back from other departments . MR. JORGENSON: We don 't have that informat ion at the momen t; I'll see that my honourable ~ friend gets it.

We don't have a breakdown here by department , if that 's what he's asking for. MR. WAL.DING: That's what I was asking for, Mr. Chairman, and an estim ate of the same figures for the coming year . MR. JORGENSON: I'll see that that information is provided to my honourable friend. MR. CHJURMAN: The Member for St. Johns. MR. CHE:RNIACK: Thank you. I wonder if the Minister , at the same time , would inform us of the name of the advertising agent for each of thos e accounts he is giving the Member for St . Vital, and the amount - well, we will know the amount paid then because he'll give us that information anyway .

MR. JOFIGENSON: Yes, I'm adv ised that that can be done and we'll endeavour to provide that information . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, if we can also clar ify the nature of these cases with each of these it,ems, that the money is all on fee-for-service and does not include any advertising space. MR. JOIRGENSON: Yes, we can do that. MR. CHAIRMAN: (dX3)-pass ; (dX4)-pass ; (d)-pass . Resolution 32: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $218,400 for Consumer and Corporate Affairs--pass . 4208 .. ..

• .. Monday, May 14, 1979 Resolution 33, Item 8.(a) - the Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , this, I th ink, is one of the most signif icant parts of the Minis ter's portfolio , the whole question of Rent Stabilizatio n and the whole decon trol period for rent con trols . I understand that we are now, I guess , abou t midway through the decont rol period which the government announced back in early 1978 and that the decontrol period or contro l period, whatever you like to call it, will extend until June of 1980 and monitoring will cont inue beyond that.

I was just wondering if the Minister had any particular comments about the phase that we are in now and whether there are either any probl ems that have been encountered by him, or whether there have been any modifications to the announcement made back in May of 1978 about what would happen. Could the Minister comment on the present phase of control or decontrol, as it may more properly be described? MR. JORGENSON: I'm not sure what my honourable friend wants in the way of a comment.

I can only tell him that the process is, as he indicated, about mid-way through the decontrol period, and as to problems, I wouldn 't want to suggest that there were unsurmountable problems.

There were some difficulties that were taken in stride, were dealt with by the staff of the Rent Stabilization Board, and I feel that the decontrol process is proceeding, I hate to use the term "as planned" - it sounds like an army term - but it's certainly proceeding satisfactorily, not only from the point of view of the Stabilization Board itself but the point of view of the tenants, and I think to a large extent from the point of view of the landlords .

One of the things that is helping us a great deal, of course , is the adequate supply of housing which acts as a buffer between the tenant and the landlord, and I think cautions moderation in rent increases. It has served as a means of ensuring that the decontrol program functions smoothly . MR.

DOERN: There was an interesting report released by the government by then Minister McGill back in April of '78 on the impact of rent controls in the Province of Manitoba, and I want to refer to some of the remarks made in that report indicating that decontrol may lead to very substantial increases in rent , and create considerable hardship for the lower income group, and that it may therefore be prudent to decontrol over a period of several years , so that appears to be the problem succinct ly put, and what I wanted to ask the Minister to begin with is, if he could make some comment , specific or general, about decontrol in the other provinces because this report was basically updated in terms of 1977 and projections to '78, and all the provinces seem to be moving - well, for instance, in B.C. it was pointed out when this report came out that B.C. had no immediate plans to remove rent controls , no termination date; in Saskatchewan there would be decontrol over three years; Ontario extending its rent control program, and so on and so on.

I'm just wondering if the Minister could make some general comment about what is happening in other provinces. Are we in step with them, or are we out of step with them and so on and so on? MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, I hate to try to make that kind of a comparison because circumstances may vary from one province to the other which would of necessity require a different approach to a decontrol program. We find, as I said earlier , in this province that our process has been assisted materially by the fact that there is a substantial supply of rental accommodation .

That may not be true in some of the other provinces, and it may be more true in other provinces . I have no way of knowing precisely just how that situation affects other provinces, but we do meet from time to time with our counterparts in other provinces, who attempt to compare notes and to determine the success, or otherwise, of the measures that we're taking here . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, that raises one immediate question, and that is the vacancy rate.

Can the Minister indicate what the vacancy rate is in the City of Winnipeg and if it's possible throughout the province because I guess the general figures that are accepted are that, when you have a vacancy rate of 3 to 5 percent you're in a good competitive market, but certainly a year or two ago the vacancy rate in Winnipeg was under 2 percent and, if I can recall , I think not too long ago it was mentioned that in Winnipeg in many apartments it was down to 1 percent, which would mean that there 'd be quite a demand and therefore little housing available in the sense of apartments. MR.

JORGENSON: Well, the latest figures - and I might add that determining what a vacancy rate is is somewhat hazardous. There seems to be no firm criteria that can be established to determine precisely what is the effective vacancy rate . The best indication that we have, of course, is the figures that were released last fall indicated something in excess of a 3 percent vacancy rate . I think that - 3, almost 4, 3.9 - I would think in the light of the number of advertisements that you see for dwellings, apartments, etc., that at the present time that rate might be somewhat 4209

Monday, May 14, 1979 more than that at the present time, but we do not have the latest figures. It does seem to me that in the monitoring of a rate the fact that the rates, even in a decontrolled apartment, or a decontrolled premise, are not being substantially increased would indicate that landlords and owners of these apartments are very cautious about raising rates because of the comp etition that does exist in this field , so I conclude from that that there is a substantial amount of competition and that the vacancy rate must be reasonably good in order to create that kind of situation . MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman , the Minister is giving us figures that are about eight months old . He's talking about last fall now, and I was just wondering who does, in fact, calculate the vacancy rate? Is it some Real Estate organization? Is it his own department? Who provides that information and could we get a current update in terms of this spring? MR. JORGENSON: It's CMHC that provides the vacancy rates . The latest report is not out, and just as soon as that report is out we'll be able to advise my honourable friend. MR. DOEFIN: Mr.

Chairman , one of the key factors in the vacancy rate is the amount of public housing constructed , and my impression is that MHRC is reducing its output and is certainly not providing the kind of accommodation that the previous administration did . I was wondering whether the Minister could comment on his government 's policy in that regard , and in so doing , provide any information on comparative figures , because a large construction program ndertaken by the government would increase the vacancy rate and presumably keep rents in line . MR.

JORC;ENSON: Well, the details with respect to the government Housing Program I think would be more appropriately acquired from the Minister of Housing, but our effort is directed towards ensuring the vacancy rate is such that undue pressures would not be placed on a tendency to raise rents in excess of what would be increases necessitated by increases in costs . -- MR. DOEI=IN: I'm afraid I was checking something else. I would ask the Minister if he could repeat l! that last statement. MR.

JORC~ENSON: What I said was that our policy with respect to housing is directed towards ensuring that sufficient housing is available , so that there wouldn 't be undue pressure towards increasin~J rental rates in excess of what was necessary , simply to provide for the increases in c:ost. MR.

DOERN: I'm not sure I fully underst and the Minister 's statement , but I would say to him that the Opposition has charged tha t the government is winding down MHRC, and that this will have an adverse effect on the marke t in that there will be less accommodat ion available , and this will fall parti cularly heavily on peop le who can least afford to pay .

So I'm saying to the Minister , if he can focus on the question of whether or not the government is windin~J down MHRC and winding down the output that it previously had , or is the Minister saying that, when required , the vacancy rate gets very low , that his government will immediately step in and start to construct, because that's the way I interpreted his first statement. MR.

JORGENSON: I'll have to take a position somewhat halfway beteeen my honourable friend and that of the Landlords ' Assoc iation , who have called for the resignation of the Minister of Housing because he is putting up too many buildings . MR. DOERN: Well , I would again say to the Minister that when we deal with people In the lower income brackets there are only a few ways in which these people can be assisted in regard to accommodat ion . One is, of course , to give them or increase the income of the poor . A second method suggested is to provide shelter vouchers , which is, I guess , rental subsidies .

And a third is to provide subsidized rental units . So I say specifically in regard to the poor , and in particular the working poor , which is my concern here, how will the Minister protec t them at the point when controls come off? Will they be left to the fortunes of the market or will they be assisted in some direct way by the government? MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Chairman , I can only refer to my honourable friend to the statement made by the Minister of Hous ing in introducing his Estimates , and I think he made a fairly comprehensive statement with respect to the government 's policy in regard to housing and the number of housing starts that will be completed , and what their plans are for the future . If my honourable friend wants 4210 :..- · '

c Monday, May 14, 1979 to refer to the Minister's statement, he will be able to get that information. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , the Rent Stabilizat ion Board, which has been a 12-mem ber Board, and so on, can the Minister indicate, say in the past year or whatever , how frequently does the Board meet and do we have any idea of their workload , in quantita tive terms? MR. JORGENSON: They meet every Thursday, and sometimes twice a week, depending on the kind of workload that they have. But they meet on a regular basis. It's one of the, I would say, one of the more active Boards in government. MR.

DOERN: Has their workload been tapering off? I mean, they are meeting regularly, as the Minister has indicated. I'm just wondering if they're dealing with fewer cases or whether it has been constant in the past 18 months. MR. JORGENSON: To answer my honourable friend's specific question, there is a declining workload at the present time. It was quite heavy for awhile. MR. DOERN: Just to conclude here , Mr. Chairman, at present we're taking things to 1980. The government 's intention is to extend this decontrol program to June 30th, 1980, and then it says they will be monitoring beyo nd that.

Can he comment on what this monitoring will consist of? Will the Board continue to operate? Will the Minister be accumulating statistics? If the picture darkens, is the government prepared to continue or reinstitute rent controls or is this the end of rent controls in Manitoba under this administation? We assume, all the time . . . Well, let me just ask those questions. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, I hesitate to project what policy will be, depending on what the circumstances are. At the present time, it is our plan to provide for the end of the decontrol program at the time that it is now specified.

With respect to how the program will operate following that, there are several courses that are open to us and no decision has been made as to what may occur. One of the possibilities is incorporating into the Landlord and Tenant Act some kind of a monitoring process that will enable us to effectively exercise some control over the question of landlord and tenant relationship, which of course include rents. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, again, are there any provinces now where controls are at an end and, if so, which ones? MR.

JORGENSON: I am advised that they have been totally discontinued in Saskatchewan with the exception of the two larger cities, Saskatoon and Regina . MR. DOERN: My other question here, Mr. Chairman, is, does the Minister work with his colleague in MHRC, in terms of an unit, or in close co-operation to tackle this whole question of housing and vacancy rates and rents, and rent stabilization decontrols? 1 assume that they are on the same wave-length and are not at g odds but actually co-ordinate and work together. th and are not at g MR. JORGENSON: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, we endeavour to keep in not at g constant communication with the Department of not at g Housing to ensure - you will forgive me if I use this term - that g the left arm knows what the right arm is doing . is term - that g MR. CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the Opposition .. is term - that g MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to inquire from the Minister. g Last year his predecessor, holding the present portfolio that g the Minister now holds, the Member for Brandon West committed himself g when the controls were lifted, pertaining to urban centres outside of g the City of Winnipeg and Brandon, that they would be monitoring to g ascertain whether or not there had been excessive or unreasona,ble g hikes in the rents during the period of time subsequent to the lifting g of the controls .

I would like information from the Minister as to what g message that monitoring can convey to us. m the Minister as to what g MR. JORGENSON: Well, in a word, Mr. Chairman, the message does seem g to indicate that, notwithstanding the fact that rent controls are not g effective in many of the areas outside of the 4211

Monday, May 14, 1979 City of Winnipeg and g Brandon , the tendency to increase rents beyond what ges in y would normally have been the case with co ntrols has not been evident . In other words , there has been a tendency to exercise a considerab le amount of moderation in increasing of rents . I should add that there have been a few cases where there have been excessive increases in rent and we have then intervened and mediated the dispute between the landlord and the tenant ... and , in most cases , effectiv ely reached an agreeable settlement. MR.

PAWLEY: Can the Minister indicate how many complaints were received by his offices pertaining to the number of excessive rent increases, which later had to be investigated? ::: MR. JORGENSON: The complaints that were referred to the Rent Review Officer to date have involved 36 buildings . Of those , 24 have been resolved and there remains 12 that are still active . MR. PAWL.EY: Can the Mini ster indicate whether or not those colaints relate to any one particular centre? Of course, here we're talking about centres like Dauphin and The Pas, Selkirk, Thompson . MR. JORC:iENSON: They cover about 10 different centres.

They 're not located in one particular area . MR. PAWLEY : Now, what I am concerned about, Mr. Chairman - and I'd like the Minister's comment - is that though he may be only receiving 30-some letters of complaint to be investigat ed , that in fac:t he may only be witnessing the tip of the iceberg and in fact there may be some very significant increases that are not coming to his attention due to the fact that the Rent Control Program was in fact decontrolle d insofar as all centres outside of Winnipeg and Brandon.

Can the Minister assure us that he is not seeing only the tip of the iceberg insofar as the rental situation is concerned outside major centres? MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, our surveys seem to indicate , our monitoring seems to indicate that that is not the case.

We are seeking out landlords in the various centres and getting information from them with respect to their proposals, with regard to increases , and , on that basis, in the information that we're getting from the landlords , it would appear that my earlier statement could be substantiated when I said that there appears to be a great deal of moderation being exercised In raising rents .

If my honourable friend seems to have some information, he appears to be fearful that we're not seein!~ the entire pictur e, then I would certainly invite him to draw to our attention any instances where he feels that there may be problems , and we'll certainly be happy to look into them . MR. PAWLEY: I may very well do that , because I have received some letters of complaint recently. What is concern ing me, Mr. Chairman, is whether or not in some centres we really witness a problem of absolutely no vacancy rate at all and, speaking close to home , I know that that is the situation in the Town of Selkirk .

There is no vacancy rate to any extent at all. Rental accommodation is very difficult to obtain ,

whereas I suspect in a centre like Thompson you would have a very high vacancy rate and then in between you would have centres of varying degrees of vacancy rate. And yet all the urban centres are more or less grouped in together , and I'm not sure if, in the process , we do not witness some hardship in some communities simply because they fell into a particular population ratio or fell outside Brandon and Winnipeg . Those are the concerns that I can't help but feel insofar as complaints that I have received by letter and by verbal means . MR.

JORGENSON: In the Town of Selkirk itself, we have been in touch with something like 40 landlords, and , of that group, 10 of them are not seeking any rent increases at all. 12 buildings are seeking increase which would average around 11 percent. -(Interjection)- MR. JORGENSON: Oh, yes. MR. PAWLEY: I think I could name them . MR. JOFlGENSON: Yes, they do range from about 5 percent to about 25 percent. MR. PAWLEY: Just for further inform ation, and I will leave it at this point , does the Minister within 4212 ...

-. Monday , May 14, 1 979 his area . . . I suppose this should await another department, deali ng with the ent ire questi on of co ndo minium s, sale of cond ominiums and pro blem s relating thereto, whether the Rentalsm an is involved in connecti on therewith . Condomini ums - does that fall within the jurisdiction of the Rentals man Off ice? MR. JORGENSON : No, Mr. Chairman , that does not fall within the juri sdiction of this departme nt. MR. CHAIRMAN: 8.(a)- pass - the Membe r for Wolseley . . MR.

WILSON: Under this secti on, I wanted to put on the record some thoughts I had pertaining to the Rentalsman Office . So long as they continue to be there and cannot be dismantled , I would suggest that , in my opinion , they should not become , as I have suggested, a forwarding agency for ... MR. CHAIRMAN: I th ink the honourable member has passed that subject, in my

interpretation of the Estimates, where Rent Stabil ization is, 8.(a). MR. WILSON: It is passed? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. MR. WILSON: What are you on now? ly ten years of age are getting MR. CHAIRMAN: 8.(a), Resolution 33. ten years of age are getting MR. JORGENSON: That's Rent Stabilization ; it's not the Rentalsman's Office. SON: That's Rent Stabilization; it's not the Rentalsman's MR. WILSON: Okay , that's all right , I'll leave it to the salary. The ges in y area I wanted to talk about is there is a big problem in the The ges in y City of Winnipeg in that there seems to be a very high vacancy rate ges in y in the modern type of apartment block,

whereas in the older blocks ges in y where the senior citizens live there seems to be a very locks ges in y low vacancy rate . The result is that there 's the phenomena of s ges in y finding apartment blocks that are only ten years of age are getting ges in y the same rents as some of those that are 70 and 80 years of age. So it would seem that the market at a certain level has got a fairly high vacancy rate

whereas a market at another level is somewhat presenting a hardship to some people because they cannot move into the particula r category they like. Under th is

section , I wanted to point out to the members opposite that I had a case, one of my tenants asked me for a new fridge and asked for her kitchen to be painted and I said, fine , I'll do that but your rent is going to go up $8.00 a month and she more than happily agreed to that but the n she was talk ing to one of her relatives and she said that theh had told her that she was break ing the law by agreeing to pay the $8.00 increase.

So she phoned the Rentalsman's Office and they said that you had to give a tenant 90-days notice, so I wanted to put on the record that there is a provision that if a landlord wants to co-operate and be more than accommodating, he may find himself having to deal with the provision of the 90-day notice pertaining to any type of increase regardless if agreements have been made between people . MR. CHAIRMAN: 8.(a)-pass ; 8.(b)-pass . Resolution 33: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $571,300 for Consumer and Corporate Affairs, Rent Stabilization- pass.

We turn back to 1.(a), Resolution 26, the Minister 's Salary . The Leader of the Opposition . MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman , I would like to enquire from the Minister if this would be - I think it would be the area to discuss another respons ibility of the Minister and I only want to deal with it briefly - and that is in his capac ity as the Chairman of the Provincial Land Use Planning Committee . Would this be the appropr iate section? MR. JORGENSON: I'm afraid , Mr. Chairman , that that particular subject was dealt with under the Department of Municipal Affairs .

But if my honourable friend has a question , I don 't mind answering it. 4213

Monday, May 14, 1979 MR. PAWLEY: I believe last year we dealt with it under the Minister 's Salary. MR. JORGENSON: But it was under the Executive Council that you dealt with it because my salary then was paid under that particular branch . I have no objection to answering my honourable friend's question but it will have to be understood that it has nothing to do with this particular department . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Johns . MR. CHERIIIIACK: On a point of order, I don 't think it has to be understood at all.

It has to be understood that this Minister wants his salary paid as a Member of the Government and that we have a right to discuss his activities and his actions in government that justify his salary. You know , I think we are all agreed to let it go , but he is putting in a sort of a proviso for the future and I really feel that that is not acceptable . I don 't think he meant it that seriously but if he did, I just feel I have to go along with raising it. MR. JORGIENSON: If my honourable friend wishes to proceed I have no objections to answering . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman, what I would like to discover from the Minister is where, insofar lr as the Provincial Land Use Committee and the policies that have developed therefrom, whether or not the decision at the local level by the District Planning Boards that have been established under the Provincial Planning Legislation , whether they have the final say insof ar as approvals or disapprovals of lot splits? MR. JORGENSON: They do, once a Planning Statement has been approved.

A municipality or a group of municipalities intending to enter into an agreement in a planning district , bef ore that planning district is approved , have to submit a planning statement which is a statement of intention of the use of land in their

part icular municipalities. MR. PAWlEY: Does the Minister then, by reference to statements , mean basic planning statement? MR. JORGENSON: Yes, a planning statement is a statement of intent which is developed and submitted before the Min ister of Municipal Affairs prior to the approval by Order-in-Council of the formation of that planni ng district. '- MR. PAWl.EY: So the Minister in fact is advising me that the District Planning Board, if such a basic plann ing statement has been approved, that the District Planning Board has the final say insofar as its decision pertaining to any lot split? MR.

JORGENSON: That's the intention of the formation of the planning districts in the first place , to provide to the municipalities within a planning district , the opportunity of exercising whatever authority or whatever priority, if you want to use that term , they may want to exercise in the approval of applica tions. As my honourab le friend knows, in some areas a greater degree of priority may be given to land use; other areas may have greater concern over shore lines; another area may have a greater concern with respect to wildlife preservation , etc. , etc .

The formation of the planning districts is intended to decentralize that decision-making process . Essentially it's the same thing because they follow the guidelines , and the guidelines are, to a large extent as my honourable friend knows , the same guidelines that are used by the Planning Board , the difference being, of course , that a greater emphasis , or less emphasis can be given to one policy statement as opposed to another one by a district Board than there could be on the part of the Municipal Planning Board itself, and they make those decisions based on their knowledge of their particular area . MR.

CHA IRMAN: The Leader of the Opposition . M. PAWLIEY: 1 thank the Minister for his information, and that's the way that I had understood the Minister was operating from our discussions of last year, and certainly I do say that the approving authority ought to advise the Distr ict Planning Board if it 's of the view that a certain subdivision ought not to be approved and the reasons should be set forth , presented to the District Plann ing 4214

Monday, M ay 14, 1979 Board or to munic ipalities why th ose app rov als are not proceeded with. But I want to say t o the Minister , t here are some instanc es that have come to my attentio n that really fly in the face of what he is just informing us, and I'm not going to get involve d now with names but I will provide him priva tely with the

part icular file where that appears no t to be the case, and I'm wondering if the Minist er could expla in why that woul d no t be the case. MR. JORGENSON : Mr. Chairman, I would have no knowledge of that at the moment. As my honourable friend is aware, I'm simply the Chairman of a comm itte e that was set u p to develop the guidelines. That work has not been comp leted as yet.

Following the meetings that were held last fall - as my honourab le friend k nows , there was a series of meetings held within the municipalities in the various areas across the province - we invited the munic ipalities at that time to submit to us, after having had some experience with the guidel ines, to submit to us recommendations in which they believed some change s might be advisable . We have received a number of such recommendations.

They are now in t he process of being analyzed and recommendations will be placed before the Provincial Land Use Committee of Cabinet for the purpose of finalizing those guide lines along wit h those recommendations . That, I hope, can take place reasonably soon, and once the guidelines have been finalized and approved, then they become the operative guidelines for the planning districts . MR. PAWLEY: Is the Minister able to provide us with any indication as when the guidelines will in effect become law? MR.

JORGENSON: I would hope that that process could be completed within - I hate to set deadlines - but I would hope that that process could be completed within a couple of months. MR.

PAWLEY: As the Minister 's aware , there is considerable uncertainty now insofar as various areas of development and I would like to simp ly comment that at the same time there appears to be a growing recognition in some municipalities in particula r that the sprawl which has occurred in residentia l development is getting some mun icipa lities into difficulty - the tax rate rising sharply, not able to contend with the assessment which has been brought about as a result of the high price of lands in the areas in question .

So that I would hope that the Minister could take some fairly quick action in this regar d because I do believe from the informat ion that I'm sure he is receiving as well, that there's increasing concern insofar as some of the taxation and assessment and other social problems that occurring insofar as some of the unplanned sprawl which has taken place in the past. MR. JORGENSON: Yes, I might simply say that the concern is in direct proportion to the municipali ty's proximity to the city of Winnipeg or to the large r urban centres .

The closer the municipality is located to an urban centre , the more keenly they become aware of the necessity of relatively strict adherence to the guidlines that have been set out, which inciden tly, as my honourable friend knows, has been essentia lly developed by those mun icipa lities themselves to meet the problems and the needs that they felt existed , perhaps long before in y other municipalities were aware of them . I find that the furthe r one gets away from the city of Winnipeg the less concern there seems to be for the need to exercise proper planning practices .

However in spite of that there still are some municipali ties tha t are exhibiting a consider able amount of interest in the format ion of plann ing distr icts, areas that are somewhat removed from the city of Winnipeg, which leads me to believe that there is a grow ing concern amongst all mun icipal people, and 1 think that I can perhaps give a great deal of credit to the Association of Manitoba Municipalities themselves who have promoted the idea of planning districts all across this entire province and 1 think have done a reasonably good job of convincing a large percentage of their membership of the need for that kind of planning.

MR. PAWLEY: Well I would simply concur , I can't avoid the opportunity of reminding the Minister that when the Legislation was first introduced , his Party while in opposition was sharply critical of the Legislation. But even at that point the municipal people in general were supportive through the union of municipalit ies and I'm pleased to see that the Legislation is not being undone or destroyed, but I do want to add one reserva tion, Mr. Chairman, and that is that a careful check is maintained by the decision makers , and that's why I asked the earl ier question .

The Legislation if it's to succeed must ensure that municipalities and district planning boards representing the local people, do have a certain orbit of disc retion with in the general laws or guidel ines that are established. I find there's a tendency sometimes on the part of planners , bureaucrats - if that 's what one might 4215

Monday, May 14, 1979 wish to call them - to, in fact , use their position to override sometimes local decision makers in this area , sometimes in a way which is not at all necessary . And I'm wondering and as 1 offered to the minister , I will provide him with this information , although I believe he was aware of it personally, as to Why in fact , ther e are instances coming to the fore when in fact , district planning boa rd decisions are being overridden by the provincial planning authority . MR. JORGENSON: Why ? MR. CHAII~MAN: The Member for St. James. A point of order . MR. MINAI<ER: Mr.

Chairman, on a point of order . Yes, Mr. Chairman, I think now we're getting into a municipal affairs discussion when we start talking about planning in other areas, and I really think we're out of order on this . MR. CHAinMAN: Well, I think committee ... The Honourable Minister . MR. JORGIENSON: With all respect , the Leader of the Opposition was questioning with respect to my responsibilities as Chairman of the Planning and Land Use Comm ittee of Cabinet , and I agreed to submit to questioning on that particular subject. So that is the purpose of the discussion right now.

I have no objections to answering those questions . MR. PAWLEY: I'll be providing the minister with the particulars in respect to the issue again . MR. CHAIFIMAN: The Member for Wolseley . MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman , I want to use this opportunity to put a couple of minor things first on the record , and then maybe get into something which I think is probably worthwhile. I'd like to see - and his department is Consumer and Corporate Affairs - I'd like to see the registration of corporations . Many individuals are holding themselves out to be corporations when , in fact, they're not.

My investigations seem to indicate that the department responded on a complaint basis only , and I realize that we're in a restraint program, but it seems to me that if the Attorney-General has six or seven lawyers that have time to moonlight , that if there is any type of slack season, if I can call it that , whether it's in any area of your department , that it might be well to pick up the phone book some time and check out some of these particular companies, especially the new ones that appear in the phone books because it is against the law to hold yourself out to be a corporation when in in fact you 're not.

I ran across no less than half a dozen of them in the collection bf business tax for the City of Winnipeg . My other concern is with the towing companies . It seems to be a municip al problem in that they're trying to cope with it through the by-laws. It seems if you take your house trailer to Leisureland or any company like that , they 'll charge you $10 .00 a month to store your recreational vehicle, but if it is picked up by some bank or credit union , the towing company seems to have an open-ended cheque and can charge $90.00 to $150.00 a month.

I think that 9 and 15 times what is the going rate in the marketplace . In fact, you will probably find that there compounds are not level like many of the recreational vehicle suppliers. They are probably not as secure and I think that if the abuses continue , I think that there should be some guideline set as to the maximum towing companies can charge for storage.

Now, I think it was the great Clarence Darrow who said laws should be made to fit people they are meant to serve , and while it may appear that this might be under the Attorney-General 's Department , I submit that the consumer is not being well served by government who, because of the very heavy lobby of the lawyers of this province , seem to want to create new laws to feed their graduating classes .

It would seem to me that the Consumer's Department should sit down with the Attorney-General 's Department and repeal some of the ridiculous laws which are sttting on the books , which serve only to confuse , serve only to get very large retainer s for the ignorant consumer or the unknowledgeable consumer , or the consumer who is involved for various reasons in some form of entrapment through some law that is sitting on the book which does not serve him at all, because it is often said that in death we've got to bewa re of hell, but in life we've got to beware of bad laws and the law courts .

It seems certain things are happening that are not protecting the consumer . I remember that in County Court they used to have a blue form attached which was a statement of defence and that statement of defence has mysteriously disappeared and why , because it meant that the person served with his court action would be able to read that he could , for $2 .00, file his own defence . Now , by removing that blue form, the consumer must now consul t a solicitor and I submit that that blue form sho uld be returned to allow the people 4216 ••

.. Monday, May 14, 1979 to do it themselves and I would submit there's a good business for some young man to get into to, or some young lawyer, to tell people how to do it themsel ves kit , because it seems that the Public Information Services under your department does not want to explain governmen t progra ms and laws to the people as indep th as poss ibly they should do. I refer it again to the Rentalsman's Office and I had written to you, Mr.

Minister, on Apr il 3, where I felt th at Demand Notices are so simply worded and Orders for Possession are so simply worded that they could be mass-produced by Willson Stationery or somethi ng so that the small landlady in Wolseley who has two or three tenants, if somebod y is stay ing out all night or partying all night and she wants to get rid of him, she isn't compelled to go to a lawyer to get rid of the tenant , the government would suppl y the Demand Notices or they could go and pick them up from Willson Stationery and they could do these things themselves by paying a registered letter .

It seems too many times , and I say this from a personal exper ience, when I phoned the Rentalsman 's Office, they told me to get a lawyer. I really feel that with retainers of $200.00 to $500 .00 minimum by most solicitors in this province , that small landlords and landladies should be able to have the opportunity , be given advice, as to how they can get rid of undesirable tenants without having to go to this expensive trough .

You know , sometimes I think government is a henhouse, and the Law Society is the fox , and the fox is turned loose in the henhouse by the government , and I think the time is fast arriving when there's going to be some consumer advocate that is going to see that these types of things are corrected, and I realize there's a very strong lobby from the Law Society and its members, and I think in the Nixon Administration about 85 percent of the politicians were graduates, so I say that as a consumer advocate I would hope that somebody reads Hansard . MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(a) - the Honourable Member for St . Vital. MR.

WALDING: Mr. Chairman, while the Minister is waiting for the Committee to vote his salary, • 1 had one or two questions that I would like to ask him in his capacity House Leader. I note that just about a year ago, I believe it was the middle of May, I filed with the govern ment an Order for Return asking simply to know what bids they had received on the Lord Selkirk II and associated assets. I am still waiting to hear from the government that rather simple information.

I did ask the Minister for it in the House and he replied to me during Question Period without giving me too much satisfaction, . so I'd like to ask him again where I can repeat the question . When can I expect Order for Return No. 55 to be tab led ? MR. JORGENSON: Well, I'll have to check with the Minister who is responsible for provid ing that Order for Return . I do not provide them .

It's perfectly in order for my honourable friend to ask me that question but the Minister who is responsible for providing that Order for Return is going to have to answer to my honourable friend, but I just repeat again what I said in the House, that sometimes Orders for Return seem to take a great deal of time before they are returned . I recall waiting as long as two years for Orders for Return . MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman , I recall the first time that I inquired of the government on this .

I inquired of the Minister of Finance , who I understand was the appropriate Minister, and who would have received - no, I'll make a correction to that - I asked the previous Minister of Industry and Comme rce if he could tell me now who was the appropriate Minister and he referred me to the Minister of Finance. On referring the question to him, he referred me to the Government House Leader , who now tells me that I should have addressed the question to the appropriate Minister.

Now, I know there's a certain amount of buck passing that goes on within the government but can the Ministe r now tell me defini tiv ely to whom the question should be addressed? MR. JORGENSON: No, I was intending to pass the buck . I simply said I will take the responsibility as House Leader, but I will have to make my inquiries from the appropriate Minister before I can respond to my honourable friend . MR. WALDING: The Minister also told me when I asked him why it should take so long, replied to rrie in the House that he had often wondered that when he was in opposition. MR. JORGENSON: Yes, I had . MR.

WALDING: Now that he is in government and has the opportunity to find out why, perhaps he could inform me and the Committee as to why this has taken a year to produce. Looking at it, it would seem that the answer to the order would be on one sheet or a few sheets of paper 4217

Monday, May 14, 1979 filed away in a filing cabinet in a particular department , and all that is required is for someone to take them out and dupl icate them and pass them over to me. Now, if there is some other reason, perhaps the Minister would be good enough to advise me. MR. JORGENSON: Well, if there's some other reason I'm not aware of it.

I am just beginning to recognize some of the deep complexities of providing Orders for Return , and I'm beginning now to be apprE!Ciativ e of the reasons why, when I asked for Orders for Return, or we asked for Orders for Return , that sometimes it took two years to get answers . I have yet to be able to figure it out completely . MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, I count five such Addresses for Papers and Orders for Return that were accepted by the government in the Session a year ago that have not yet been produced, and I can understand in the case of some of them that it might take a little while to get the information together .

One of them, for example, by the Member for Kildonan, asked for details of trips by Ministers, Deputy Ministers , and Assistant Deputy Ministers, on government business over a certain amount of time, and I can well understand that it might take all the departments some little time to gather that material together and to produce it, but when it comes to an Order for Return by the Honourable Member for Wolseley, who I think - oh, who is still here - as to the cost to taxpayers of the Woodswort h Building booklet , that is presumably one entry on one sheet of paper filed away in some mystHrious place.

Now why the government has not accommodated its favorite backbencher with this rather simple piece of information really puzzles me. MR. JORGE!NSON: I believe that would come under the Minister of Government Services and will have to check with him to find out if that Order for Return can be filed . MR. WALDING: If that is a matter of embarrassment to the previous government , Mr. Chairman, I would have thought that this government would have produced it with alacrity and made a copy of it, not only for my friend, the Member for Wolseley, but perhaps for every member of the House, and also would have . . . MR.

JORGENSON: We might have even put it in the Information Services book . r Services Branch. I don't have any details as to what MR. WALDUNG: That was the next point. But when it comes to my particular Order for Return, Mr. Chairman, No. 55, it does make me wonder why , the government has been so slow to produce this, whether it's a matter , of some embarrassment to the government as to what the bids were for , this rather valuable government asset, that I see is now begin, ning to sail again. able government asset, that I see is now begin , MR.

JORGE:NSON: I wish we could have got that boat down , into the Red River Valley for the last few weeks; we could , have used it to a good advantage . t few weeks ; we could , MR. WALDING: I believe two reasons for that: First of all, it's draft , was excessive , and secondly , the Federal Government wouldn't open tlhe , gates at Lockport to allow it through . The Honourable Member for , Lac du Bonnet has a question having to do with ble Member for , the operations of the Rural Water Services Branch . It's one more that's , outstanding . f the Rural Water Services Branch . It's one more that's , MR.

JORGE:NSON: The what? Oh, the question? ch. It's one more that 's , ENSON: The what? Oh, the question? ch. It's one more that's , MR. WALDING: The Order for Return having to do with the operations , of the Rural Water Services Branch. I don 't have any details as to what that is about . er Services Branch. I don 't have any details as to what My colleague from St. Johns wants to know the cost of separation payments in 1977-78 fiscal year re the termination of employment. Now, the fiscal year , 1977-78 , has been over for 12 months , and 1 recall it was a source of some pride to the Minister of Finance , Mr.

Chairman , with the speed with which he was able to get out the Public Accounts for the year , that no longer was it going to take a y 'ear to produce that financial information ; he was going to produce it in six months or in nine months or so, and here we have a year end that has been closed for thirteen and a half months and we are still awaiting this information . 4218

Monday , May 14, 1979 No. 53 from the Honourable Member for Wolseley I've already mentioned, and that's a source of amazement to me that the government has not yet produced that. The one by the Member for Kildonan, having to do with trips by Ministers , Deputy Ministers and Assistant Deputy Ministers , I would not have thought that that would be a source of embarrassment to the government since they made a policy statement shortly after coming into power that they intended to introduce restraints in the matter of government travel, and they were going to cut down at least on the amount of air travel.

So had they carried out that particular policy decision , I would not expect that to be a source of embarrassment whatsoever to the government. But it does raise questions, Mr. Chairman , as to why the government has not yet produced that information , and I would urge this Min ister to contact his colleagues and put whatever pressure on them he is able to do, so as to give us this information. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . . MR. JORGENSON: I have no response . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I just want to add a comment in this regard.

The beauty of the Question Period is, you ask the question but the Minister can answer as he pleases, or not at all, and this Minister has answered in a very nice way to these questions asked about these Orders For Return that he would look into it, and that he experienced difficulty when he was in Opposition and that he was not aware that the length of time it took for him to get his answers was justifiably as great as it was. So, Mr.

Chairman, you and I, who have been here since 1962-63, continuously - and we have long memories - will well remember that the style which the Honourable Minister credits the NDP government was one which it learned well from the Roblin administration, and there we learned the rules were that an Order For Return might or might not be accepted by government. If it were not accepted it would be debated at length . As a matter of fact, in those days it was a debatable question at all times, and then once it passed, if it passed , there was no rule that said it had to be filed .

As a matter of fact, the rules said that at the end of the Session all Orders For Return died wherever they were, not on the Order Paper but in the records, and weren't even expected to be responded to, and I'm sure the Minister remembers that . So that this technique that the Minister attributes to the NDP is one which it learned, and learned well, I think, from the Conservative government in our time, Mr. Chairman , of 1962-69 . That doesn't justify it, nor does it justify this Minister in giving an answer in all good humour which refers back to that.

But, there is one difference : This Minister, as House Leader, accepted openly, accepted the responsibility for getting those returns filed, and indeed we should say that when we started this Session, as I recall, there were 31 or 32 outstanding orders from the previous year and now it has been whittled down to five, which isn't bad. It's not good enough, Mr. Chairman . Again, historically ... MR. JORGENSON: We're not all perfect. MR.

CHERNIACK: Well, I would like to see some reaching out for perfection, inadequate as it may be on the part of this Minister, who does have a great respect for the parliamentary system. You know, I have got him on that, Mr. Chairman . There is nobody that I know of in the House, on both sides of the House , who appears to have the greatest respect for the parl iamentary system, and he helped change it in this respect.

Because I'm quite sure that he was very much involved in the change which was made during the NDP administrat ion , which provided that an Order For Return didn't die at the end of the Session but was continued on to the next Session and the obligation was imposed on the government to file that order , regardless of how long it took . And, as I say, I think it was only within a year or two prior to the change of the administration but I know the Minister will remember it better than I do.

Let me just tell the Minister that when I assumed the portfolio of Minister of Finance I found that there was lying, not on my desk because my desk was clear of everything except, I think, an old ashtray, but somewhere around the office there was an almost completed Return to An Order, which had been accepted by the previous government, on - it was either one of trips of Ministers and Deputies, such as the one that has been outstanding now, or I think more than likely it was the cost of renovation of Ministerial offices .

And it was there; I don't know how long it had been there, but it was there , and I don't think I filed it because at that time there was no provision for filing Orders For Return. 4219

Monday, May 14, 1979 So, regardless of the fact that we treat this with some amusement , I do think that it is contrary to our parliamentary system, the principles, and I think is sort of a slap to the parliamentary system and the Opposition, and the Legislature. Let's not forget the Member for Wolseley is one of the five people still waiting . So, although we treat it lightly and we haven 't made a big deal about it, nevertheless, in all seriousness , I don 't think it's right. I don't think the Minister thinks it's right.

I don't think it's his fault except in one important respect ; he took responsibility and they have sloughed off responsibility on him .

And when I say that , I know that one of the Ministers said, "Well, I don 't know about that; it's up to the House Leader ." So I think he can 't shirk it, although I think it's really not his fault , but it is his responsibility and therefore in all seriousness I suggest that there is no excuse that I can imagine that there is for withholding this , unless one is prepared to credit the ~1overnment , which I am often prone to do, of a kind of arrogance, like , you know , I don't care .

But I don't attri bute tha t to this Min ister, that's why I'm glad that this Min ister is in the position of being on the spot and I don 't think we should let him off the spot, Mr. Chairman. I don 't suggest that we prolong this debate or that we try to reduce his salary ; I think he earns his salary, but I think we ought to remember long enough so that we can harp on it if we don't get these responses. Now , doE~s the Minister honestly visualize any reasons for the delay , without knowing the reasons? Are there any of those that would be so difficult?

There are some lengthy ones, I admit, but it's over a year , Mr. Chairman . MR. JORGENSON: Well , Mr. Chairman , although we have treated this , as my honourable friend says, in a light-hearted way, I can assure him that I take his admon ition and the admonition of my honourable friend for St. Vital very seriously , and I will do whatever I can to ensure that those Orders For Return are tabled as . . . MR. CHERfiiiACK: And do you resign if you fail? MR. JORGENSON: That might be an invitation to some of my colleagues to get rid of me. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1.(a)-pass ; Resolution 26: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $702,900 for Consumer and Corporate Affairs General Administration-pass - the Honourable Minister. i"-'R. JORGENSON: May I thank the Committee for their courtesy and for the expeditious manner in which thHy have processed these Estimates; I appreciate it very much . MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. SUPPLY - LABOUR AND MANPOWER MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to draw the honourable members ' atte ntion to Page 59 of the Main Estimates , Labour and Manpower , Resolution No. 78, Item 2. Labour Division.

We are on item (aX2Xa) Salaries-pass - the Honourable Minister . MR. MacMA,STER: Mr. Chairman , could I just get this over to the Member for Logan, he wanted a sample of some of the materials that we give out. I think that's a fair cross-section - there 's others , we Gould dig forever , I suppose , but I think that gives you some idea. I have some other answers here as soon as my staff gets their papers out . Here 's three or four more of them . Maybe the members have a question, Mr. Chairman , I'm trying to get some of this materia l together . MR. CHAIRL\.1AN: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR.

WALDING : Thank you , Mr. Chairman , I just wnnted to ask the Ministe r whether this would be the appropriate

section to bring up the matter of noise pollution , and noise-induced hear ing loss and if not, which

section would be appropriate? MR. MACMASTER: Industrial Hygiene is where we prefer to have it - the next

section I believe . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Churchil l. 4220

• Monday , May 14, 1979 MR. COWAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairper son.

Over the dinner hour, I had upportu nity to discuss the s taff allocation with the Member for Logan, and I'm not trying to be obtrusive or canta nkerou s about this, but we together still do not fully understand the terminol ogy th at the Min ister is using, and aga in, would ask for clarification , just so that we know that when the Mini ster is saying that there were 26 funded positio ns and 4 unfu nded positions, which would tota l 30, and if thi s year there are 30 funded posi tions, just so we understan d what the differ ence i s because I don't think , and perhaps the fault lies wit hin ourselves - I don't know, but I don' t t hink tha t we fully unde rstand that terminology yet.

Just to explain our problem to the Minister, maybe he can then address his remarks directly to that problem, is we had asked how many staff were there last year , and the Minister told us that the re were 26 funde d staff and 4 unfunded staff . And then we asked h

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-3-60b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 3rd hansardpdf 60b.pdf
Language	en
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