Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 57 (35th Legislature, 5th Session)

35-5-57

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session· Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under. the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker Vol. XLW No. 57 • 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, June 28, 1.994 ISSN OS42-S492

NAME ASIITON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CAURSTAIRS,Shwron CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY,Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR. Gregory DOER,Gacy DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert. Hon. DUCHARME, Gerr y, Hon. EDWAURDS,Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. Fll...MON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FR1ESEN, Jean MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and PoUtical Atnliation CONSTITUENCY Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Sel.kirlc Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wobeley GAUDRY,Neil Gll.LESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis SL Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli HEL WER, Edward R. IUCKES, George KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LA 'llH.JN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY,TJm MANNES S, Clayton, Hon. MAURTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCORMICK, Nonna McCRAE,James,Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHAURD, Donald, Hon. PALLIS1ER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, Jolm PRAZNIK, D�UTen, Hon.

REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENB ERG, Harry STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosano Point Douglas The Maples Inkster The Pas SLNorbert SLJohns Elmwood Morris BWTOWS Sturgeon Creek Osborne Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa SL Vital Rupertsland Gladst one Turtle Mountain Broadway Rossm ere Kir.ldield Parle FlinFlon La Verendrye Fort Garry Swan River PAURTY.

NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal Liberal NDP PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC Liberal PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP

4294 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, June 28,1994 Th e House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS RO�NEPROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITT EES Committee of Supply Mrs. Loui s e Dacquay (C hairpers on of Committee s): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply bas adopted certain resol utiom, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveins on), that the report of the committee be received. Motion ag reed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Donald Orchar d (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to table the Annual Report of Manitoba Energy and Mines 1993-94. Hon. Jim Erns t (Minis ter res pons ible for Sport) : I would like to table , Mr. Speaker, the Supplem entary Estimates for the Manitoba Community Support Programs. Contaminated Site s Discussion Paper Hon. Gle n Cu mmings (Mini ster of Environment) : Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Contaminated Sites Discussion Paper, and I have a statement I would like to make to the House. I have copie s. Mr.

Speaker, in 1992, this government made interim amendments to The Dangerous Goods Handling and Transportation Act to provide a more eff ect ive resolution to the problems associated with allocating responsibility for remediation of contaminated sit es. Responsibility for remediation of contaminated sites until that time, like most in Canada, placed the respom ibility squarely on ttie shoulders of the existing landowner, regardless of their level of involvement and the actual contamination.

In May 19 92, I appointed a minister 's advisory committee to review this emerging issue and provide recommendations for legislative changes to address the matter in a fair and effective manner and over the longer term.

Representation on that committee was from the Union of Manitoba Municipalities, the Manitoba Association of Urban Municipalities, the Canadian Bankers' Association, the Wmnipeg Chamber of Commerce , the Manitoba Eco-Network, the Manitoba Bar Association, the Manitoba Real Estate Assoc iation, the Canadian Chemical Producers ' Association, the Manitoba Mining Asso ciation, the Canadian Manufacturers ' Association, Credit Union Central of Manitoba and Canadian Petroleum Products Institute . At the same time, Mr.

Speaker, we approached the Ca nadian Council of Ministers of Environment with the recommendation that contaminated site liability be addressed from a national perspective so that issues of concern from coast to coast could be dealt with in a consistent manner across this country. Staff of the Dep arttnent of Environment chaired a national multistakeholder task group on this issue and after a year of extensive negotiations the task group submitted a report and recommendations to the council of ministers , which included 13 principles, developed to form the basis of provincial territorial legislation on this issue.

The ministers unanimously endorsed those principles. The Manitoba advisory council had a strong voice in the national debate because they had been set up in advance of the CCME task group and had already worked through many of the issues. Since

4295 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 28, 1994 the adoption of the principles by the Canadian Co uncil of Ministers the Manitoba advisory committee has been busy drafting legislation that would reflect the CCME princi ples. The committee is now in a position to take its ide as ou t for more public discussion prior to final izing the ide as for legislation. In larg e me asure, the leg islation will deal with the designation of contaminated sites, how to allocate costs for the remediation, and the remediation requirem ents.

The legislation will establish an allo cat ion process th at is desig ned to utilize alternative dispute resolution principles to the degree po ssible in trying to avoid the extensive and exp ensiv e litig ation that has charact erized the experience that we have had in this field and with the U.S. Super Fund. •

(1335) I am pleased to table this discussion document that we are pr oposing to circulate widely across the province. The stakehol ders will have an oppo rtunity for discussion. We will provide time for review and written comm ent and we will host in conjunction with the committee a number of regional meeti ngs this fall. The comments and discussion will be reviewed by the committee and a final draft of the legislation will be prepared for ta bling as a bill at the next session of this Legislature.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the members of the committee for their work and innovative thinking that went into this discussion paper. They each came to the table with an idea of solving a problem and although their backgrounds and perspective were widely divergent, they worked towards consensu s on a very difficult and complex issue. I look forward to their continuing efforts as we finalize this legislative package. Ms. Marianne C erilli (Radisson) : I am pleased to rise and respond on behalf of our party to this initiative in the area of contaminated sites liability.

I am somewha t disapp oi nted, tho ugh , and concerned by what the minister is saying. On the one hand , it is good they have struck the advisory committee and it seems like there is a good cro ss-section of represen tation on the adviso ry committee, and this is something that is new for this government Historically, they have brought in legislation after piece of legislation, where it sort of comes in in the dark of night, and we see that the legislation is changed without any consulta tion.

Then we have this discussion paper where, if I am not mistaken, if we look back in the throne speech, there was a commitment that we were going to have a bill to deal with contaminated sites and liability in this session. I am somew hat concerned that we have had a year of extension of negotiations as the minister has said, and we now are having a discussion paper. We fully support that there be a polluter-pay system.

We support that we need to have, as I understand that this bill is inte nded to do, a mechanism for decision making so there can be a fair way to assign the costs for liability when there is a contaminated site. So we are fully in support of that concept, and I welcome the chance to have a discussion, a wider discussion, with the public, but we just find it ironic or interesting or somewhat unusual that on this particular issue, the government is going to such a long, drawn-out consultation when they had not done this, Mr.

Speake r, on a number of other very serious environmental matters that have been addressed through legislation by this government. I welcome the chance to review the document I know that there are a number of people on the advisory committee that have expressed concerns with the direction that the government was going. Perhaps the discussion paper is a chance to open the debate up to a wider audience and get input from where I am sure they will get a number of good recommendations with a number of people in the community who have good expertise in this area.

I am disapp ointed that this is taking a long time, but Mr. Spea ker, it is a very serious area, and I hope that the government will be open to listen to rec om menda ti ons from all sectors of the community, and that we will, in fact, at some point get some legislation to deal with this. Thank you. -

June 28, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4296 Ms. Norma McCormick (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I too would like to respond to the minister's statement. In fact, I have had some long-term interest and familiarity with this, having sat on the Winn ipeg Chamber of Commerce task group on environment and sustainable development, which raised some issues of concern which are now showing up in the ministerial statement. Particularly of interest to me is the statement that the process is designed to utilize alternative dispute resolution principles to avoid expensive and costly litigation.

This was something that was of genuine concern to us. For the process now to come out pointing us in the direction of trying to keep these things out of court for assigning liability is indeed quite a good step. I look forward to seeing the full discussion paper. We are somewhat constrained in being able to comment on the brief statement we have before us, but I will commit us to giving it thorough review and to supporting any initiatives which move us in the direction of getting this matter resolved. •

(1340) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 219- The Re sidential Tenancies Amendment Act Mr . George Dickes (Point Douglas ) : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), that leave be given to introduce Bill 219 , The Residential Tenancies Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia location h usage d'habitation), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion prese nted. Mr. Dickes: I am pleased to introduce this bill today. I feel it is a bill which bene fits all Manitobans, as it is a bill that ensures that tenants are treated fairly should they become ill and unable to fulfill the terms of their lease. The putpOse of the bill is to close a loophole which presently exists within The Residential Tenancies Act,

Section 93(1). This

section of The Residential Tenancies Act lays out the guidelines for the termination of a lease for individ uals who have been accepted into a personal care home. As background, under the existing act, if a tenant has been accepted into a personal care home, the tenant may terminate the lease without penalty by giving the landlord a notice of termination that is not less than one rental payment period.

The problem with the present act is that it fails to deal with people who are unable to return to their homes for medical and other reasons and have not yet taken up residence in a personal care home due to extended waiting lists for spaces in personal care homes. Many Manitobans are unable to give notice on their leases because they have not yet taken up a res idence in a pers onal care home.

In one particular case, a woman was unable to return to her home due to the seve rity of her medical condition and all owed to stay in a hospital while paying the regular daily rate she would be paying in a personal care home until a space in a care home became available. Yet, under the present act, she was not allowed to terminate her lease until she had actually entered a personal care home .

Similarly, under the present act, there are no provisions for the termination of a lease for individuals who have become ill and ente r the hospital and are unlikely to be able to return to their home due to their illness . This proposed private members' bill seeks to remedy these situations in two ways. Firstly, once an individual has been paneled and assessed to be- Mr. Speaker: Order, ple ase. The honourable member is allowed to make a brief statement as to the purport of the bill. Now, I would ask the honourable to just kindly-[interjection] Order, please.

I would ask the honourable member to kindly sum up his argument, now. Mr. Dickes : It is a very complicated bill, and it needs explaining. This ass essm ent would be sufficient evidence of acceptance into a personal care home. Once it has been determined that an individual has been

4297 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 28, 1994 paneled and is waiting fo r a space in a personal care home, at this point they will be able to give notice of their intention to terminate their lease. In conclusion, I feel this bill is a necessary addition to the existin g act, and I hope that it will be supported by all members of this Legislature. Motion agreed to. In troduction of Guests Mr. Spe aker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the Applied Linguistics Centre 16 adult students under the direction of Mr.

Dave Chaddock. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for St. James (Mr. Edwards). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Kenaston Underpass Justification Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : Mr.

Speaker, we have been asking questions of the provincial gover nment about the Kenaston undetpass and the $30-m illion investment that is proposed by the three levels of government for this project, the largest amount of money proposed for any pro ject in the province of Manitoba under the federal-provincial municipal inf rastructure program. Today we have been made aware of an

article in the summ er 1994 Manitoba Trucking report from the MT A general manager where be makes a number of statements about this project. He first of all states that they were never consulted about the pro ject. He fe els this pro ject, the $30 -million pro ject, will in fact mean the yards will never be moved, and he makes the further point that: Why is this project proceeding when the whole thrust of the airport development plan is to have a multimodal transportation centre in the northwest

section of the city where truck transportation and air transportation is available? I would like to ask the Premier whether he bas considered the points raised by the Manitoba Trucking Association as contained in the s umm er 1994 issue concerning the $30 -million expenditure on this pro ject . •

(1345) Bon. Gary Fllmon (Premier) : Mr. Speak er, if the Leader of the Opposition would tum that

article over, I would be happy to consider it. Mr. Doer : Mr. Speaker, I will table the

article today. It is very consistent with the questions we have raised before to the First Minister. We have asked this question about bow this $30 million can be expended when the Winnipe g transportation study and the Wmnipeg Transport 2000 study is not schedul ed to be completed until December of 1994. We believe this pro ject should not proceed and the $30 million should not be expended until we look at the macro issues of transportation, such as the issues raised by the head of the trucking association today.

Would the Premier please infonn the House and the people of Manitoba, why are we proceeding with this specific transport pro ject prior to the transport study being completed fo r the City of Wmnipe g in Decem ber of 19947 Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated last week, the grade separation at Wilkes of the CN main line was the No. 1 priority for the City of Winnipeg as grade sepa ration in their transportation plans.

It was a program that obviously had the support of the federal partner in the agreement, and the city and the province assumed that there was a need to have some balance of the various diff erent programmings and various diffe rent projects, and it was one that the trilevel committee saw fit to approve. Costs to Date Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : I guess the question is, if further evidence comes fo rward to the three levels of government that raises questions about the merit of a pro ject, that raises questions about the long-tenn viability of this pro ject versus the whole area of locating trucking in the vicinity close to the aiJ.port. H there are other factors from the community coming forw ard, are they to be considered by the -

June 28, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4298 three levels of government in terms of the merit of spending $30 million, the largest amount of money? Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the Premier, given that the decision-making date according to the project schedule, the project description forum, is for December 31, 19 94, notwi thstanding the fast-tracking of a number of the decision-makings, including the Mr A approval, the federal URP appro val, the provincial EIA app rov al, the app roval of the CNR, et cetera, can the Premier indicate today how much money has been all ocated in tenns of what has been app roved by tender to any companies?

How much money has been spent of the $30 million in terms of this Kenaston underpass project, which is re ceiving consid erable public debate and considerable public scrutiny in terms of its overall merit for the city ofWinnipe g? Hon. Gary Fil mon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, I just want to emphasize that my information is that this particular project is consistent with the trucking centre plan proposed for northwest of the aitport, that it is part· of the over all requirement to have Route 90 maintained as a very strong and viable access for trucking.

I will take as notice the question of how much money has been expended to this point. •

(1350) Rural Development Video Mr. Jerry Storie (Fiin Flon) : Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for Rural Development We have criticized this government on a number of occasions for their continuing expenditure of taxpayers' dollars on propaganda The Minister of Rural Development is responsible for a film on rural development which features the Premier quite prominently extolling some of the virtues of the province of Manitoba. The video also features a number of rural Manitobans who have been involved in small business.

One of those companies, a company call ed Kitemandu, principal Ron Bell, is featured on the video. My qu estion to the Minister of Rural Development is: How many more days is it before that particular business closes its doors and heads to Ontario? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Developmen t): Mr. Speaker, I will have to take that question and the specifics of that question as notice and get back to the member.

However, I must say that the video that was produced by the Depart ment of Rural Development, which fea tures many successful businesses throughout rural Manitoba, indeed was to give other Manitobans a flavour of the kinds of businesses that have located in rural Manitoba which have achieved some success in operating in rural Manitoba. There are many. [interjection] It is unfortunate that the rural member who represents Dauphin scoffs at the whole idea of successful business es in rural Manitoba.

There are many successful rural business es in this province, businesses that have located in rural Manitoba and are doing a tremendous amount not only to create jobs but indeed to add to the economy of rural Manitoba. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, I want to make it very clear. What I am scoffing at is this government's propag anda approach to small business in the province, rather than practical help. Production Cost Mr.

Jerry Storie (Fiin Flon) : Can the minister explain why, when this particular individual business person told the department that he would be leaving the prov ince, the department insisted that he continue with this promotional activity, despite the fact that one of the principals on this video indicated to the department that he would be leaving the province? Why this charade, and how much did it cost the taxpayers of Manitoba? Bon. Leonard Derkac h (Minister of Rural Develop ment) : Mr.

Speaker, let me first of all indicate that I have no knowledge about whether this individual is or is not leaving the province as of today. I will get back to the member with the specifics to that question.

4299 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 28, 1994 However, let me say that there will be many businesses that will locate in rural Manitoba and locate from other places in this country into rural Manitoba. Rural Manitoba has proven that it is a place where people en joy a lif estyle ; they enj oy investing. I can only cite the example of a small community that has attracted many people , not only from outside of its own little village, but indeed from the province of Ontario , who have located in rural Manitoba, fo und it a place where they can do busine ss, and indeed a successful business.

So let not the member cast aspersions on rural Manitobans to indicate that it is not a place where people should invest. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, the aspersions are the inte grity of this gove mment to tell people the truth. This individual told the gov emm ent of Manitoba he would be leavi ng. He is fe atured on the video. He spoke to me person ally and told me that this was information he pass ed on to the gove mment. My question is: Where is this Rural Developm ent video going to be filed, under fiction or nonfiction? Mr. Derkadl: Let me tell the member that I was not personally involved in creating the video.

The individual fe atured in the film has never spoken to me, and I have never spoken to him . I do not know who the individual is, but I will certainly inve stigate the matter and get back to the member with an app ropriate response. Provindal Judges Reassignments Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition) : Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice. Earlier this month, Judge Meyers was reassigned by Chief Judge Judith Webster of the Provincial Comt.

There have been questions in this House to the Minister of Justice, and she has consistently indicated that her department did not play a role , and she has rested. It has been a matter of privilege here, the distinction between this building and the Law Courts, which is obvious to all members. However, my que stion for the Minister of Justice today is: What notice did she have from Judge Webster of the reassignment, and what reasons, if any, were given for that reassignment to her or to her officials?

It is now clear that Judge Meyers has not just been reassig ned to a rural circuit, but that be has been specifically barred from hearing fa mily violence cases . Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney Genera l): Mr. Speaker, I would like to make it clear again that the assignment of judges is completely within the jurisdiction of the chief judge. This decision was made by the chief judge alone .

Notice was given to the Deputy Attorney General after this had occurred, I am not sure how many days fo llowing, but I can check the number of days fo llowing at which the Deputy Attorney General was advised that this judge had been reassigned again, which is completely within the jurisdiction of the chief judge to do. •

(1355) Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, I look fo rward to hearing the details of that and of that conversation. In fact, as well, we are advised that after the May 22, 1994, interview with the Winnipe g Free Press in which Judge Meyers did offer criticism of this gove mment's policies and did talk about his own personal experiences with family violence, there was a meeting May 24, two days later between Judge Webster and Deputy Minister Bruce MacFarlane, and it was only the day after that there was a meeting at which Judge Meyers was told of his reassi gnment, and be was in fact reassigned on the 25th. Mr.

Speaker, in onter to clear up any confusion, I would ask the minister as well to please furnish to members of this House any and all details of the discussi ons between Chief Judge Judith Webster and her deputy minister two days bef ore his reassi gnment. Mrs . Vodrey : Mr. Speaker, I would like to say again I certainly hope the member is not in any -

June 28, 199 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4300 way inf erring that the Deputy Attorney General or the Attorney General had any

part in the chief judge's decision to move Judge Meyers, because that is entirely wrong and should not be left in any way in the minds of Manito bans. The meeting between the deputy minister and the chie f judge, I frankly have no knowledge of. The deputy minister keeps his calendar and would meet on a regular basis with many indiv iduals , members of the judicia ry and members of the prof ession. I cannot tell the member what the pu:rpose of that meeting was, but he does meet regul arl y. Mr. Edwards: I am sony, I missed the minister 's last comments.

I assume that she is going to, however, furnish members of this House with the details of that di scuss ion, because it did happen the day bef ore Judge Meyers was reassigned. I am asking only in the context of involvement between the court and her office and Mr. MacFar lane. Mr.

Speaker, my final question for the minister: Given that it is now clear, based as early as this last Wednesday when Judge Meyers had been scheduled to sit in Portage Ia Prairie but when it became evident that there were family violence cases on the docket, he was reass igned and not allowed to sit, that cle arly it is not ju st a reassignment to the rural courts, clearly it is a taking away of his ability to sit on those family violence cases. That has now been clear.

I would ask the minister to investigate that herself to ensure that there are at least some reasons given and that she understands completely her own department 's involvement in this and brings that to the attention of this House. In particular, if any reasons were given other than simply reassignment, which ap pears now clearly not to be the only case, the members of this House deserve to have the benefit of that advice that was given to her. Mrs. Vodrey : Mr. Speaker, first of all , the member makes an all egation in his question.

He says something about reasons, perhaps not the ones given, such as reassignmenL H he has any indication of that, I say put it on the table. Put the evidence fo rward, because my department and I as minister have nothing- Mr . Speaker : Order, please . •

(1400) Point of Order Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, I do not think the Minister of Justice is listenin g. I have specifica lly stated that this was more than a reassi gnment to a rural court. I have put evidence on the paper of a docket that he was scheduled to sit on, that he has now been barred from sitting on fa mily violence cases. That is the allegation I am making, and I have also put the evidence . Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. • •• Mr. Speaker: The honourable Attorney General, to finish with her response. Mrs . Vodrey : Mr.

Speaker, let me say again to re assure Mani tobans, because I believe that this is the important reass urance, that my office and that I as a minister of this govermnent had absolutely no involvement whatsoever in the placement of Judge Meyers. That is entirely the responsibility of the chief judge, and the chief judge is the one who properly will answ er the questions regarding the assignment and regarding her decisions. Mr. Speaker, I also want to make it very clear, the government does not have a role in saying where judges will siL That would be interference .

That would be stepping over the bounds of judicial independence. It would suggest that if we did not like something, we could ask that changes be made. Let me make it absolutely clear that is not the case, that government does not step in to where judges are assigned. That is entirely and absolutely the responsi bility of the chief judge, and that was what was done in this case.

4301 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 28, 1994 Health Care System Staffing Proposals Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, we know from public comments from the presidents of the two hospitals that levels one and two staff cuts are on hold from St. Boniface and Health Sciences Centre and are sitting on the desk of the minister. We also know that ever y time this gove rnment tries to implement health refonn, be it Bill 22, be it home care or be it Connie Curran, they make a mess of it. Mr.

Speaker, my question: Will the minister, for once , do the right thing and bring these recommend ations to this House and bring these recommendations to the public of Manitoba, so the public and the patients and the members of this Chamber can have some idea of what changes the minister is proposing in additional cuts prior to the minister impleme nting these things? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I am happy to report to the honourable member who ref erred to Bill 22 that ma ny proposals have come fo rward . A number of initiatives or proposals have been accepted.

A number have been rejected in the interest of patient care. Even so, we will still achieve a significant saving through the auspices of Bill 22 and also a significant saving in jobs. The honourable member keeps insisting we move fo rward with laying people off, and we are trying our best to avoid doing that because of the impact that has. The member referred to Connie Curran, who is a close associate of a close associate of honourable members opposite , Mr. Michael Deet er.

I suggest if the honourable member wants any advice on Connie Curran, he need only speak to his soulmate , Michael Deeter, the $14 0 ,000-a-year deputy minister from Ontario who closed, without any concern for the consequences, 5,000 hospital beds in Ontario. Mr. Speaker, we will not be moving fo rwaid with changes that would have a negative impact on patient care. I will repeat that every time the honourable member asks questions . Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the minister does a disservice to this Ownber and the people and the patients of Manitoba by re fusing to answer the questions.

I will attempt to ask another question of the minister. Will he assure this House that he will bring to this Clamber the VSIP package, that is, the employee benefits package they are wodciog on presently that has been delayed by the minister and the deputy min ister? Will he bring it to this House prior to it being implemented and prior to the changes occurring at St. Boniface and Health Sciences Centre? Mr. McCrae: I will go back to the first question which the honourable member alleges I did not finish answering , Mr. Speaker. He asked about re commendations that have been made.

Well, many, many of them were published in the Winnipeg Free Press. I can find the date for him if he is interested. There were hundreds and hundreds of people, our fe llow Manitobans, involved in the creation of all these ideas, sugg es tions and recommendations. There is certainly no secret about what they are, because virtually hundreds of fellow Manitobans have been involved in the creation of those . So the honourable member need not fe el that anything is being held back from him, because I am sure nothing is. St. Bonif ace Hospital Swing Beds Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan) : Mr.

Speaker, the hundreds of Manitobans and patients could sure use that $4 million that they have wasted on Connie Curran. My final supp lementary to the minister: Will the minis ter, since he has said in this House that the five swing beds put in place for the psychiatric wing at St. Boniface Hospital have not been used, app rove the extension of those beds in conjunction with the recommendations of the president of St. Bo niface Hospital, who has recommended, because of the changes and the dislocation in the government's health ref onn, that those five swing beds are required? -

June 28, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4302 Will the minister appro ve the continuation of those five swing be ds for St. Boniface Hospi tal, something the minist er say s-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : I am going by recollection, Mr. Speaker, which is not always 100 percent in my case, but I think we are talking about seven beds that were made availabl e, should they be required, if there was a peak or an excess amount of traffic in the emergency room at St.

Boniface Hospital, and it was those beds that I reminded the honourable member had not been opened. They may have been opened on an occasion since that time to deal with a peak day, but certainly at the time I said what I said, it was correct, Mr. Speaker . I have frequent and close contact with the president and CEO of St. Bonif ace Hospital as we go through the annu al process of ensuring that the hospital is app ropriately funded for the valuable service that it provides to the people in this province , and I will continue to have a close worldng relatio nship with him.

Brandon General Hospital User F�Hernia Operations . Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East) : Mr. Speaker, I have a question also for the Minister of Health. The Brandon General Hospital has recently decided to offer a new procedure called the laparoscopic hernia system repair procedure , which cuts the patient 's recovery time from five or six weeks down to one week.

However, the hospital cannot re cover the cost fr om the government, which is $350 more than the traditional open hernia operation because it does not reduce the patient 's length of stay at the hospital and, therefore, the patient has to pay a user fee of$350. My question to the minister: Will the minister review this matter and change the system of payment to all ow the Brandon General Hospital to be reimbursed for this new procedure and not to have to charge a user fee to the patient? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : Mr.

Speaker, as I understand this situation with respect to laparoscopic hernia repair at Brandon General Hospital, what is at issue is the right of Brandon General Hospital to charge a fe e for supplies in this situation. We have grave concerns with the proposal being put fo rward by Brandon General Hospital and have not approved that. So if anybody has gone through that process and bee n required to pay a fe e, we want to fol low that up because we have grave concerns and have not authorized that. Mr.

Leonard Evans: Well, I thank the minister fo r that answer because I think, as he has said himself, patient care should be paramount. In this case, you are reducing the recovery time by about five weeks. So I ask the minister, would he take into consideration the fact that Westman residents can go apparently to a Winnipeg hospital, I understand the Vi ctoria Hos pital , and receive the new procedure without a user fee because that hospital has achieved a shorter length of stay and, therefore, it can receive additional money from the government to cover the additional cost.

There seems to be something wrong with the payment system here . Mr. McCrae: I think the honourable member is right. There does seem to be something wrong here. As I said in my previous amwer, I have grave concerns about the proposed course of action here at Brandon General Hospi tal. The people of Westman, as the honourable member very well knows, are very well served by Brandon General Hospital in spite of some of the degrading sorts of things he says about Brandon General Hospital from time to time.

We plan to continue to provide the very best possible service out of Brandon General Hospital for many, many years to come. As I said, though, we will sort this situation out. We do not supp ort the charging of a $350 fee fo r people to have laparoscopic surgery at Brandon General Hospit al.

4303 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 28, 1994 • (1410 ) Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, I thank the minister for the answer. I would trust that in his con sid er ation of the matter, he take into consid eration the fact that patients can come to Winnipe g, get it at a hospital without an extra user fe e, but that they, theref ore, are required to pay additional costs of transporta tion, perhaps accommodation of the family and so on, so that there is really an add itional cost for the particular patient. In effect, Mr. Speaker, the present system does not encourage improved patient care.

So I hope the minister would take that into consideration. Mr. McCrae: I will hasten, Mr. Speaker, to repeat my answer, because I do not want the honourable member to go running off to the Brandon Sun to tell the people of Westman that they have to go to Victoria General Hospital for their surgecy . I already answered him that we do not support that fe e; theref ore, there would be no nee d. We will work out the app ropriate arran gements with the Brandon General Hospital so that service can be provided to people in the.Westman area .

I do not want the people of We stman to believe the honourable member for Brandon East when he goes out and tells them that they have to drive all the way to Victoria Hospital in Winnipeg, because that is not the case. We do not accept that proposal. We realize the Brandon General Hospital has an issue to sort out, and we are here to work with them to get this issue sorted out. Abitibi-Price- Pine Falls Emerge ncy Response Ms. Marianne CerlDi (Radisson) : Mr.

Speaker, we have had confinned that there has been another chemical contamination from the Abitibi-Price mill, this time a leak of 240 litres of a chemical called Nalkat, which is water soluble , but it raises some concerns with respect to the other problems at the mill and especially makes us wonder what is going on at this mill .. There seems to be some problem with emergency response at the mill.

I would like to ask the minister to tell the House how this spill was initially discovered and when the downstream communities we re notified, particu larly in light of the fa ct that this leak was ongoing for some 15 hours . Bon. Gle n Cummings (Minister of Envir onment) : First of all, Mr. Speaker, there does appe ar to be a much better response this time from the corporation in making sure that when it became known that they had a prob lem, they notif ied the approp riate authoriti es and the downstream residents. This does emphasize what we have said all along.

We want the mill to move quickly under the new management because almost all of the investment and certainly all of the up-f ront invest men t is being made in the name of environmental improvement. Of course, putting in part of that is putting in place a muc h better management system so that they do not have situations occur of this nature, where they have something uncontrolled occur that can be seen to be detrim ental to the water quality . Ms. Cerilli: Mr.

Speaker, given that the occupational health sheet on this chemical under the section, steps to be taken in the event of a spill or leak, it says: Stop the release and contain any absorbent material; or, by diking, prevent from entering water courses. For significant rele ase, contact the appropriate regulatory authori ties. It goes on to recommend a thorough cleaning and requires the elimination of any hazardous material that would remain. I would just like to ask the minister to tell the House what was done to try and contain this chemical so, as it is recommended, it did not enter the water course.

Can he also tell us if this chemical is from the same

section of the inill that- Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please . The honourable member has already put her question. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, there are two aspects to this question. First of all, let me acknowledge that at least this time the member took care to ascertain that, in fact, something had occurred The last time she raised in this House the

June 28, 199 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4304 fear that there had been a spill and brought it to the attention of this House and the public, in fac t, it was nothing more than an unsubstantiated rumour which when checked out proved to be wrong. Mr. Speaker, the precise steps that occurred at the mill and whether or not the response within the mill was approp riate is part of what will be cleared up through the course of the investigation. There always seems to be some implication from the member opposite that the investigation is not appro priate.

Let me tell you, this mill has been under some very intensive scrutiny over the last period of time, and this will be approp riately investigate d Emuent Treatment Upgrading Ms. Marianne Ce rilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, there are still leaks there, and for the minis ter's inf ormation, the other information I brought was- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. This is not a time for debate. The honourable member fo r Radisson, with your question, please. Ms.

C erilli: My final supplementary: Given this spill has occurred and that this company was to have met last week, June 21, a milestone under the transitional authorization to do effiuent treatment upgrading, will the minister table today any documen tation to conf irm that the mill at Abitibi-Price has met that milestone under the fed eral transitional authorization agreem ent? Hon. Glen Cu mmings (Minister of Envi ronment) : This is, I belie ve, the essence of the same question that was asked during the Estimates process a couple of weeks ago.

The requirements that they were to show purchase orders for specific equipment I believe have been met An Honourable Member: Table it. Mr. Cummings: If the member is asking me to table it, I do not carry that around in my pocket, Mr. Speaker. The appropriate inform ation, I will supply her. Social Assistance Singl e- Parent Pilot Pro ject Ms. Norma McCormick (Osborne) : Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Family Servic es. Yesterday, there was a federal consultation on the issue of tax treatment of child support.

In presentation after presentation, the information painted a bleak picture of the plight of Manitoba women raising their children without adequate family income . Mr. Speaker, in the throne speech and in the ensuing months, we have beard much from the minister on the single-parent pro ject to get single parents off welfare. Will the minis ter assure us that the commitment in the throne spee ch will be honoured and reveal to the House the details of the single-parent pilot pro ject before the end of the session? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Fa mily Services): Mr.

Speaker, I would dearly love to be able to announce a single-parent pilot pro ject before the end of the session, but my honourable friend should know that it is a joint fe deral provincial proc ess. I have been meeting with fed eral officials . I had the oppo rtunity to meet with the Honourable Lloyd Axwortby yeste rday, and we are in the final stages of negotiation. I would encourage her to e nsure that she speaks to her federal counte rparts and encourages them to move very expeditiously, as we are hoping to, to ensure that pro ject can be up and running in the very near future. Work Incentive Programs Ms.

Norma McCormick (Osbor ne) : Mr. Speaker, the throne spee ch announced that the government will introduce in this session a major set of Welfare to Work initiatives to strengthen incentives to work, remove barriers and encourage economic independ ence. Will we receive the details of these initiatives and the progress on their implementation prior to the end of the session? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Fa mily Services): Mr. Speaker, as all members of this

4305 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 28, 1994 Legislature know, there is a major review of the social safety net at the federal level. It is nice that at this point in time we will be included as provinces, as equal partners in the process. I am encouraged that we will be able to have some input into what might happen and ensure that, as I have indicated before, there is not just pure oftloading from the federal government, in fact, there is true and meaningful reform, and both levels of government will be able to work very closely to ensure there are new and innovative ways of doing things. Mr.

Speaker, as far as Welfa re to Wo rk initiatives go, we have already ann ounced with the City of Wi nnipeg an enhancement of their program, Community Service Worker Program, that they have been running for a number of years. We ann ounced an enhancement where 400 people ex tra wi ll have the opportunity through our funding to e nsure an opportunity to work. • (1 420) Family Support Inn ovations Fund Access Criteria Ms.

Norma McCormick (Osborne): Can the minister share with us the criteria for access to the $2.4- million Family Support Inn ovations Fund, as high expectations have been created in the community and organizations who have worthy proposals are increasingly frustrated as they wait for clarification on the terms of the fund. Bon. Bonnie Mitchel son (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, just to add to my second answer, I wanted to indicate that there has been a trilevel infrastructure announcement that has created the opportunity for people on the welfare rolls to get into the workforce.

I think it has been widely acce pted by many of those who we know do want to work. As far as the Family Support Inno vations Fund goes, we have had the opportunity to dialogue through the Estimates process and also with a meeting in my office with my honourable friend to discuss some of . the issues around early intervention, early child development and ensuring that not only do our Child and Family Services agencies have some opportun ity to change the way they do things, but in fact I am looking for community support and community solutions to use that fund.

We will be developing criteria and working with the community very closely over the next short period of time to ensure that there is opportunity for children to be supported through this fund. R.B. Russell Cbild Care Centre Subsidized Spaces Mr. George Dickes (Point Douglas) : Mr. Speaker, last year when the provincial government cut two subsidized child care spaces at the R.B. Russell high school infant care centre, the minister indicated that it was considered an area of high need. The child care program of R.B.

Russell allows many single, teenage mothers to finish their schooling, something they might not be able to do without the program. If these young women are not able to finish school, many of them may end up on provincial welfare, so there really is no saving to the province in cutting funding for these spaces. Will the minister tell the House today when the child care centre at R.B. Russell can expect to hear about their rea llocation of subsidized spaces, so that 45 young women curre ntly on a waiting list for child care can start pl anning for the school year and their future? Bon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for that question, because it does allow me to put on the record that, in fact, the number of subsidized spaces at R.B. Russell was not reduced. When we looked at the budgetary process last year, we looked at the usage of spaces in every centre and allocated subsidies based on what the traditional usage had been. At R.B. Russell, it was indeed 13, but they made a good case at the time, and we gave them 14 subsidized spaces, instead of 13 at that time.

I do want to indicate that in that area of the city, there are other centres that do have an underutilization of their subsidized spaces. We have encouraged the boards and the centres to work together and to share those reso urces . If there

June 28, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4306 is one centre that is not using their subsidized spaces, we have encouraged them to share those spaces and those resources with other centres. I would encourage R.B. Russell, Mr. Speaker, to open up that process of communication in the community and try to find a co-operative approach to solving the problem. Mr. ffickes: Mr. Speaker, this child care centre is in a school, and there is a waiting list of 45 students who wish to attend. Will the minister commit today to consider the R.B.

Russell child care program under the federal single-parent initiative to provide funding for programming and equipment, as well as the two extra subsidized spaces the centre needs to stay open? Mrs. Mitchelson : Mr. Speaker, as a matter of fact, I had the opportunity to visit the R.B.

Russell infant care centre when we held some of our public consult ations re garding the sing le-parent initiat ives and some of the ince ntives and disincentives, some of the incentives that may need to be provided and barriers removed to allow young women to complete their education and to enter the workforce and become very self-reliant and independent of our welfare system. I had the opportunity at that time to visit and to understand better the programming that was taking place there . Mr.

Speaker, we will be looking at all options when we look at implementing our single-parent initiative for Manitoba women and parents. Gasoline Pricing Government Investigation Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River) : Mr. Speaker, the people involved in the agriculture indus try are under a tre mendous amount of pressure with increased costs and low grain prices. The failure of the federal government to defend these farmers against Americans is also hurting farmers, and now the increase in gas prices is more than farmers can bear.

Last week the Minister of Consumer and Cotporate Affairs said that the gas companies were operating as a cartel. Has the minister contacted the federal department of consumer and cotporate affairs and asked them to investigate the possibility of collus ion by these companies? Bon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned last week, we are in the process of putting together historical data, information related to gas prices, not just in Winnipe g, but elsewh ere in the province.

I have my staff atte mpting to arran ge meetings with the four major oil companies to have a heart-to-heart talk with them about what has been going on. We are pursuing this matter vigorously. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Quest ions has expired. Speaker's Rulings Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I have two rulings for the House. On June 17, 1994, I took under advisement a point of order raised by the honourable member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) in which she alleged that the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Orchard) had imputed motive with respect to a matter of privilege she had raised.

I believe that members are aware that the point of order was raised immediately after the Minister of Energy and Mines made a statement to the House on June 17 about a matter of privilege raised earlier in the week by the member for Rad isson. In his statement to the House, the minister said, and I quote: "The MLA for Radisson made her accusations with the full knowledge that neither Hans ard nor the tape had any such statements recorded." And "I further suggest that the member for Radisson made the alleg ations with the full knowledge of how it would be used by the media." Beauchesne Citation 481(

e) states that: "A Member, while speaking, must not: (

e) impute bad mot ives or motives diffe re nt from those acknowledged by a Member." Citation 494 reads in part: "It has been formally ruled by Speakers that statements by Members

4307 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 28, 1994 res pecting themselves and particularly within their own knowledge must be accepted ." Also, Erskine May, the British parliame ntary authority, at page 383, reads: "Expressions which are un parliam entary and call for prompt interf erence include the imputation of false or unavowed motives." I am ruling that there was a valid point of order, that the Minister of Energy and Mines did impute motive to the member for Radisson different from those acknowledg ed by that member by stating that the member raised a matter of privilege in this House with the knowledge that the minister 's words had not been recorded by Hansard and with the full knowledge of how the media would use the member's al legations .

I am, theref ore , requesting the minister to withdraw unequivocall y and without qualification the imputation of motives . Bon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Energy and Mines) : I will naturally accept your ruling, Sir. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. That does conclude that one. ••• Mr. Speaker: Now, we have another ruling for the House. On June 21, 19 94 , the Chairperson of the Committee of Supply reported that the committee had adopted a motion respecting a matter of privile ge. The motion moved by the honourable member for Radisson (Ms.

Cerilli) reads as fo llows : 1'HA T the comments of the Minister of Energy and Mines of Monday, June 13th to myself in the Committee of Supply, indicating "She needs a slap", that violate my privileges as a Member of the Le gislature be reported to the House and that in accordance with the provisions of Beauchesne citation 107 this committee recommend that this matter be referred to the Committee on Privileges and Elections ." I took the matter under advisement. I am ruling that there is not a prima facie case for privilege.

To paraphrase Speaker Fraser of the House of Commons in his ruling of December 14, 19 87, privilege is a narrow thing. Only when something has been done which clearly limits or interf eres with the capacity of a member from carrying out his or her duties as a member of the Legislature may a matter be privileged. It is not privileged just because there are strong diff erences of opinion in this Chamber, or even if certain comments are made which may be disagreeable in the Chamber.

The use of unparliamen tary language, as Beauchesne Citation 485(1) points out must be raised as a point of order and not as a question of privile ge. Further, there is no record , either in the printed Hansard or on the tapes of June 13, which show what the Minister of Energy and Mines may have said.

The minister has in this House acknowledged he had used a phrase "must have been taken to the woodshed." He denied using the words "she needs a sl ap." I would also like to note that the alleged incident took place on June 13, and the honourable member did not raise the matter at the earliest opportunity in the committee . I am simply making this as an observation. It is not a reason on this occasion for a ruling that there is not a prima facie case .

I should mention that, in a number of past instances in Manitoba, alleged matters of privilege have been ruled out of order because they were not raised soon enough. I think it is appropriate, however, for me to remind all honourable members that identical words sometimes mean and imply different things to different people. I would urge all honourable members to bear this in mind when choosing their words . The phrase "taken to the woodshed" has been inte:rpreted by some members of this House as meaning that a member had been reprimanded by his or her Leader.

To other members, it is a phrase which implies physical violence and one which is totally unacceptable to them. Again, I say, this is the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The public is watching and listening to what is happe ning here, and they are taking note of the exam ples that we set. -

June 28, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4308 Hansard Correction Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, a short question relating to a change in Hansard from yestenlay. Mr. Speaker: A Hansard correction? Mr. McCrae: Correction. Mr. Speaker, at page 413 2 in response to a question put previously by the member for Cre scentwood (Ms. Gray), I said the foll owing: That agreement runs from April I of '94 to March 3 of '95. I should have said March 31 of '95. NONPOLnnCAL STATEMENTS Nickel Days Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member for Thompson have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, this past weekend was Nickel Days in Thompson. One of the luxuries of being able to do this nonpolitical statement is for the first time it has been moved to the latter part of June. In fact, there was a lot of nervous anticipation as to what the turnout might be , but I am pleased to report it was a very successful weekend. As has always been the case traditionally , we once again saw the national King Miner Contest.

The winner of the contest was once again Ed Chuckery who has now tied the reconl of Lome Spicer who won six King Miner contests. Ed has won six himself now. So it is going to be very interesting to see if he continues. I might also pay tribute to the honorary King Miner and the honorary Driller, Mr. Speaker, who this year were Norm Ceppetelli and Willie Shantz [phonetic]. Norm spent 42 years in the mining indust ry. Willie spent 32 years in the mining industry. Both just recently retired. I know there are a number of people in this House who have also worked not only in the mining industry but also at loco.

They can understand what an achievement that is. I was very pleased to be part of the parade and the ceremonies that honoured them as well. I would like to once again extend congratulations to the organizers of Nickel Days and the national King Miner Contest on a very successful weekend. Thank you. Committee Changes Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas) : Mr.

Speaker, this morning, during the meeting of the Standing Committee on Economic Development the fo llowing committee substitutions were moved by leave , with the understanding that the same substitutions would be moved in the House : the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) for the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonanl Evans).

In order to ensure that the substitutes are correctly entered into the official records of the House, I would now like to move, seconded by the member for The Pas, that the composition of the Standing Committee on Economic Development be amended as fo llows: The Pas for Brandon Bast for Tuesday, June 28, 1994, for 9 a.m. Mr. Speaker, I also would like to move , seconded by the member for The Pas, that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments be amended as fol lows : St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) for Kildonan (Mr. Olomiak), for June 28, 1994. Motions agreed to. Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli) : Mr.

Speaker, I would also like to seek leave of the House to rescind committee subst itutions that I moved yestenlay. I would like to rescind that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments for Tuesday evening be amended as fo ll ows: the member for Assiniboia (Mrs . Mcintosh) for the member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer) ; the member for Pembina (Mr. Orchard) fo r the member for Charleswood (Mr. Ernst); and the member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) for the member fo r Springfield (Mr. Findlay). I would like those rescinded.

4309 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 28, 1994 I would like to move, seconded by the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAl pine), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments be amended as follows: the member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) for the member for Seine River (Mrs . Dacquay); the member for Assiniboia (Mrs. Mcintosh) for the member for Brandon We st (Mr. McCrae); the member for Roblin-Russell (Mr. Derkach) for the member for Pembina (Mr. Orchard); and the member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) for the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pall ister).

Motions agreed to. • (1 430) Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster) : Mr. Speaker, I would move, sec onded by the member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments be amended as fol lo ws: River Heights (Mr s . Carstairs) for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), for June 28 at 7p .m. I would also move, seconded by the member for Cresce ntw ood , that the com posit ion of the Standing Committee on Private Bills be amended as follows: River Heights (Mrs . Carstairs) for a vacancy, again June 28, 7 p.m. Motions agreed to. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Bon.

Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you would canvass the House to see if there is unanimous consent to change the order of Estimates from that previous ly app roved, to: in the Ch amber tod ay, the Department of Urban Aff airs, foll owed by the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund, as previously announced; in the committee, the Department of Natural Resources, followed by the Department of Fitness and Sport, foll owed by the Legislative Assembly, the Community Support Programs, and then followed by the Department of Justice.

With respect to the Department of Natural Reso urces , it is agreed that they will conclude their deliberations within one hour of the start of the committee . Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to alter the sequence of the departments to be co nsidered in the Chamber, to bring forward Urban Affairs and then the Sustainable Fund? [agre ed] In Room 255, le ave to bring forw ard the Department of Natural Resources for one hour and then following that, Fitness and Sport, Legisl ative Assembly, Community Support Programs, and then Justice. Is there leave? [agreed] Mr. Ernst: I move, Mr.

Speaker, seconded by the Minister of Family Services (Mrs . Mitchelson), that Mr. Spe aker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majest y with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laure ndeau) in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources, Fitne ss and Sport, Le gislat ive Assem bl y, Community Support Programs and the Department of Justice; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs .

Dacquay) in the Cha ir for the Department of Urban Affairs . •

(1440) COMMITT EE OF SUPPLY (Concurr ent Sections) NATURAL RESOURCES Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Laurendea u): Order , please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. 1bis afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resum e consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Natural Resources . When the comm ittee last sa t, it had been considering item l. (b)(

l) on page 121 of the Estimates book. Bon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources) : Mr. Deputy Chaiiperson, before we proceed, the member for Os borne (Ms. McCormick) raised a few questions, one on the Ecological Reserve Advisory Committe e, and I want to correct the record. I had said that I had met

June 28, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 43 10 with them. It was not with the Ecological Reserve Advisory Committee; it was with the Endangered Spaces Committee . So I had not met with them, but they meet on an ongoing basis with my dep artment, the chainnan of the committee , and there are meetings planned for the f all of '94 and spring of '95 to consider the nomination of the new candidate for the Ecological Reserve and also to develop the five-year report to the Legi slature which is required by the act and to discuss the preparation of this system plant. So I just wanted to correct that.

A further question that the member for Osborne had raised had to do with the Arbitration Board of Forestry, and I want to just mention that the last case that was heard before the Arbitration Board of Forestry was in 1970. What happens at the present time, a board can be set up or the minister within his power can take and if there is a complaint can app oint somebody to take and deal with the problem and then make recommendations. So I just wanted to correct those two issues and bring the information forward. Thank you. Ms. Norma McCormick (Osborne) : Mr.

Deputy Chair, just as a curiosity question, on that arbitration board, is there still a membership standi ng? I mean, the people have been around since 1970? No? Mr. Driedger: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, no, there is no me mbership established as such. The minister can within his power then appoint individuals or a board or whoever he wants to deal with the issue. Ms. McCormick : I am willing to go forward to some of the program detail following 12.1( c). So if you want to pass forward or it is up to you how you want to handle this. Point of Order Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Second Opposition Bouse Leader) : Maybe if we can, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I know we would like to be able to pass the department. If the minister is acceptab le, is it not possible that we can maybe ask questions on the Estimates and, hopefully, the staff that are there might be able to provide the answer? If they cannot, quite possibly get back at a later point in time because we only have an hour to deal with the whole department . At the end of it, then we will pass it. Mr. Driedger: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am very flexible.

I have all the prof essional people I need here to give answers on anything that you want. In the event that there is some technical question that my three people here and myself cannot answ er, I will provide the information, but I have no problems wherever you want to go. Mr. Deputy Chairperso n: Is there leave of the committee then to deal with the department in its entirety? [agreed] ••• Ms. McCormick : As I was saying , I am prepared to go forward to 12. l. (c). Did you want to- An Honourable Member: No. Just go ahead. Ms. McCormick : Just go ahead. Okay.

I wanted to ask on the Ventur e Manitoba Tours, the indication is the loss pro jected by the corporation in the fiscal year of-I could not quite figure out from this what in fact was the corp oration's loss. Mr. Driedger: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the loss for the curre nt year is anticipated at $485,000. Ms. McCormick: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, to the minister, was this anticipated in a business plan, or was it a surprise? Mr. Driedger: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is not a surprise. It was anticipated there would be losses , as there have been over the years.

The board has bee n very diligently trying to take and improve the situation on a year-to-year basis. Now, basically, the operation is almost at a break even, but when yo u consider the depreciation and the inte rest, then we come up with the kind oflosses that we have . In meeting with the board, we are anticipating an improved picture again for the next curre nt year. Ms. McCormick : I would like to now go forward to 12.l .(e). I have a question with respect to the affirmative action objectives in Human Resource programs.

I am wondering if anybody can describe to me what those objectives might be-the Human Reso urces Branch.

4311 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 28, 1994 Mr. Dried ger : Mr. Deputy Chairpe rson, the member for Osborne is asking specifically about the plan. The st aff tells me that basic ally the plan that each department files with the Civil Service Commission sets out sort of the intention of hiring basically four target groups : women, aboriginal people, people with disabilities and visible minorities. Then we try and get as close to that plan as possible . Maybe just to give the member an idea, as of January 1, 19 94, the total number of employees is 762. The total number of males is 510 , 66.9 percent.

The total number of fe males is 252, 33 percent. The total number of aboriginals is 17, which is 2.23 percent. The total number of dis abled is 28, which is 3.6 percent, and the total number of visible minorities is 15, which is around 2p ercent. Mr. Deputy Chairpe rson, just for further clarification, because I believe this is important, this is our perm anent staff that I was making ref erence to.

Now, we have a lot of seasonal employee s, and this changes dramatically, and there the total number of employees is 1,443, of which 1,098 is 76 percent. 1be total number of females is 345, which is 24 percent; and the mmber of aborigioals is 260, which is 18 percent; and the disabled is 9, which is 0.6 percent; and visible minorities is 6, which is 0.4 percent.

It changes a little bit, and I just want to clarify for the member that especially with our firefighting crews which are seasonal in nature tha t the aboriginal picture changes dramatically, and also because we do not have that many fe males that are in the Firetac crews, very often because of the living conditions and the harsh conditions that they are under, so that changes that perspective a little bit in terms of the permanent position that we have . •

(1450) Ms. McCormick: Thank you for that information. I would like to now move on to some program detail that I have been developing questions around. I wanted to go forward to the Resolution 12.3 under sub app ropriation 12.3 .(k). I am curious about the $175, 000 to the Snowmobile Netwolk Oppor tunities. The line item : Provides grant support to the Provincial Snowmobile Association and member snowmobile clubs in support of the maintenance and enhancement of designated snowmobile trails within and without Manitoba. I am just curious about the amount of this that goes to the grants.

Does the whole $175,000 go as grants , or is there some administrative money going out of this fund line as well? Mr. Driedger: Ye s, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am pleased the member bas asked about this because I take a fair amount of pride in having established this fund. When I was Minister of Highways and Transportation, we had requests ongoing from the various snow toboggan associations to establish, under registration, a fee that the org anizations could then use for doing grooming of various snowmobile passes. That never carried forward. The governm ent did not see fit to do that.

However, what we have done the past year of working with the associ ations-and they, inciden tally, are organized under one umbrell a group for all of the province-is that we established a program whereby they will be allowed to charge a fee for the usage of the snow toboggan trails . The $175,000 that is earm arlred is all basically grant money . They do the administration. 1be oruy thing is that it is sort of a dedicated fund. The minister has to authorize.

They will be making recommendations where the money goes, and, basically, the department or myself would then be issuing the grants based on their recommendations. This is very much in keeping with what other provinces have done, and we feel this is a very good way of doing it. It is a user-pay concept. It is a big, big business for us in the provi nce, and we are sort of trying to catch up with the leadership and progress that have been made in other provinces.

The group is very pleased with this, and they underta ke to make sur e that there is fair distribution and there are recommendations from across the provinc e, that we have all people involved. So we are dealing with the Snowman

June 28, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4312 group, which basically is, as I said, the umbrella group and all these associatio ns. Many, many of them throughout the province belong to it. This money has been ea rmarked with the implementation date of this fa ll. However, the group has asked for a certain amount of advance money, I should not say advance money but certain fu nding, to take and implement their infonnation and develop their total program. My ADM, Harvey Boyle , is now working with Snowman to try and accommodate the funding for this current year.

So once they get into the system and it is flowing , well, then everything is going to be fine . So I feel very positive about this. Ms. McCormick : Just one other area I was curious about. It says , for the maintenance and enhancement of trails. So those people would not be deciding where trails should go, but existing trails once approved are maintained and developed, or at least monitored by these people . Mr. Driedger: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I envision and I believe they do as well-we have existing trails right now. We have some in provincial pa rks which we look after.

It is ultimately hoped that we can take and have the Snowman group take over all the trails , even in provincial parks. I anticipate , and I believe they do as well, that as this program moves fo rward that ultimately more and more associations will be joining it, and we will have a broader cross

section of trails throughout the province. Now that we have this program in place, I expect there is going to be much, much more interest, vigorous interest, in tenns of participating and expanding the system . Ms. McCormick : The minister 's answ er is giving me more concern than less . I guess given, you know. those first woods fiasco and we wound up with a bunch of trees planted in a grassland area . My concern is, if you are contracting to a private organization. what kind of control would be on where you can hack through a snowmobile trail? Mr. Driedger: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I believe the membe r's comments are valid. the concern is valid I supp ose , but these trails that we are talking about are registered trails, re gist ered snow-tobogga n trail s, and before they can be registered they have to take and work through my departmental people, with Hydro. They have to get easements and have to have it properly registered. So all the safeguards are in place , just to allay the concerns that the member has that anybody can take and develop a trail ad hoc. That is not the case; these trails have to be planned.

They have to meet the environmental concerns that are there. Actually the group is, in my view. very responsible , very conscientiou s, in terms of making sure that they do not create environmental problems but try and work very closely with the various departments, especially my department. Ms. McCormick : In that case I will just let this one go and take you at your word that there is going to be some kind of monitoring as the cross

section of trails is broad ened. I would like to then move on to the question of water, and, of course, we had quite an interesting discussion in the House around water allocation. After the presentation I made , I went and looked through the water policies book and I have still some residual concerns around water allocation.

In the statement it stated that decisions will be form ulated on licensing within the bounds of sustainabil ity. and yet within here I could not find-and I am very willing to admit that maybe I have overlooked it-any inform ation around main taining the water sources at some kind of agreed upon level. How does one accomplish the ob jective of ensuring that licensing decisions are made within the bounds of sustainability without having any datum inform ation upon which to decide whether to issue or to revoke a water licence? Mr. Driedger: Mr.

Deputy Chairpe rson, if the member would look on page 2, basically, where it says Highlights of the report. You see. this is the guiding principle by which all water issues will be dealt with, but under 4, Water Supply: To develop and manage the provinc es's water resources to make sure water is available to meet priority needs, et cetera. This has taken, as I say, four years almost to develop this policy , and we feel that it should be addre ssing-if these guidelines are followed, I

4313 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 28, 1994 think it will address the majority of concerns that are out there . The member makes reference to our sustainability of water suppli es, and I can tell you that we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to make sure that we monitor aquif ers, that we monitor the levels of all our water supplies through the province. When I took over this department from my predecessor, who just walked out the door there , listening to me a bit, but I had the occasion to get into the department of Water Resources.

I think water is probably one of the most challenging issues that is going to be facing any government of the day for many, many years to come, because people are getting much more conscious of it. Wars have been fought about water in the world, so it is not something new.

But we are very conscious of the need for good, clean water and a good supply of it and that we do not contaminate it, so we take a great deal of effort in terms of making sure that we do not pollute any further. 1bat is why there are guidelines the Minister of Agriculture set up, together with the Minister of Environment, for the establishment of livestock operations. These are all things that are tied into this water policy basically to ensure that there is good quality water. •

(1500) The licensing end of it is done with a great deal of-it is not an ad hoc type of system. The aquifers are monitored to make sure that there is a sustainable level in there at all times. We have , actually, aquif ers within the province that we have not even established, you know, how big they are and to what extent they are.

I raised it with my director of Water Res ources , my executi ve, that I would like to have try to establish where we have these water aquif ers, because the member is probably aware that, as regards the water supply for Winnip eg out of Shoal Lake , the ongoing controversy and concerns that have developed from there, ultimately there might have to be alternate so urces of water available. If something does go really wrong with the Shoal Lake supply, this city is virtually handicapped, stranded at that time.

So we are in the process of, as fast as we can, trying to establish where we have aquif ers , and some aquif ers , the member is probably aware, recharge fas ter than others . Others, it is just that when you draw down they do not charge up again, so these are the things we monitor very carefully. Ms. McCormick : So what I am understanding is that you are in the process of getting datum inf ormation. Mr. Driedger: It is there now. Ms.

McCormick: It is there now, okay, but, in fac t, you said that there are some aquifers that you do not even know, so you are in the process of getting full datum inform ation, and then that licensing decisions would always be made based on whether or not it is an appropriate time to be drawing from that source. Mr. Driedger: Ye s, Mr. Deputy Chaiiperson, the member should know that there have been licences issued for years for various uses, for domestic purposes, most of which are of first priority. There are also licences that are issued for irrigation , based on the sustainability of the aquifer.

When I made reference to the fact that we do not have knowledge of all the aquifers in the provi nce, I am talking, even areas like southeast Manitoba, where we have, we beli eve, there are substantive amounts of water, but we do not have the information on it . The areas where we have licensing taking place , we have pretty good, precise, inf ormation as to what is available , how much can be drawn down, so the licensing is done with very great sensitivity to make sure that we do not take and create problem s. Mr. Deputy Chairpers on: Order, plea se.

I would just like to inform all the memb ers of the committee that we are dealing with the entire report at this time. We are not going line by line . I would also like to inform the committee that within the House prior to our committee sitti ng, the House leaders did move that we would be adjourning within one hour, so that will be approximately 20 to four. Ms. McCormick : So this brings us to the question that was raised last night with respect to the demands for water from the growth of the hog

June 28, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4314 industry in the Interlake . Are you confident that as licensing decisions are made or as decisions are made to cite these things, there is not going to be an undue demand on water or that you have a way of knowing it before you continue to expand the industry? Mr. Driedg er: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member is probably aware that a number of articles have been written in the papers which highlighted the fr agile water situation in the Interlake . Government is well aware of it.

Between the Department of Environment, the Dep artment of Agriculture and the Department of Natural Resour ces, we realized that the aquif er systems in the Interlake are quite fragile. The low surface level that they are at possibly makes them more vulnerable for the contamination if no proper guidelines are implemented. My department, together with the aean Environment department and with Agricu lture are looking at this very care fully in terms of what is happening, and the people in the area have expressed concerns that we make very sure that no contamination takes place.

At a time when my colleague is promoting the expansion of the hog ind ustry, I think this can still be done, providing the proper guidelines are set up in terms of this storage or waste material , how it is spread, because of the concern that is always there . You cannot blame people fe eling that way, but once an aquifer is contanlinated, bow do you clean it up? Ms. McCormick : I think the discussi on has to be broadened, though , beyond the issue of contamination, to the issue of how much water is there and bow much does it take to sustain an industry.

Even if the aquifer is not contaminated, is there an inexhaustible supp ly of water to provide for this expanded industry? Mr . Driedger: Mr. Deputy Chairpers on, in most cases, till now, of c omse , domestic use has always bad the first priori ty, and farm use up to a certain level was free to take advantage of the water. When we talk of the bigger commercial hog operations now, it is not considered just farm use anymore; it is considered commercial to some degree. As a result, the monitoring is done much more specifically in terms of where they take their water and how much is available to them.

I personally now have a comfort level that staff is very, very conscientious of it. The member should be aware that over the dramatic changes that have taken place , in just a little over six years, when I was the critic of Natural Resources , prior to the spring of '88, these were not really big issues at that time. Since that time, I thought I was on top of many of the issues. When I came into the department last September, dramatic change, and ev erybody within the department is geared.

Whether it is water issues or fo restry issues or wildlif e issues, the sustainable element of it is just top priority within the department I do not know bow I can give the member a stronger assurance that the department is very, very conscientious and on top of these things and making sure that we deal with them in a very, very guarded manner so that we do not take and create probl ems. Our society is so much aware of what is going on there right now that there is not room for err or. Ms.

McCormick : I think if you could just humour me a bit with this and give me some indication about how far one could go with the development of this industry without impairing the availability of water for other uses, or just taking another cut on it, is there, for example, a department policy that says that for these kind of operations in this area, we will not continue to expand beyond this number of operations because that is the finite number to sustain the aquifer? Mr. Driedger: Mr.

Deputy Chairp erson, I am trying to, as best I can, give the assuran ce to the member that as we monitor these aquif ers , we know how much draw down there is, and we know what the requirements of these operations are prior to them getting their licence or establishing, beca us e it is based on-let us sa y, a big commercial hog operation is based on so and so many sows or so and so many feeders. We know the amount of water that is required, so we know how much they will be drawing. We also know in the aquif er what the sustainable amount of water

4315 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 28, 1994 is, you know, that is there. So we can pretty well tell when it would get anywhere close to not being sustainable anymore , and I have to say that in all cases the department moves on the side of caution much more so than by drawing it right to the line. So I personally fe el that, and I do not know how I relate this comfort level to the members, the department is very, very much on top of these things and monitoring very carefully together with other departments as well. Ms.

McCormick : I guess what I fe ar is that, you know, in a time where perhaps the recharge of the aquifer is diminishe d, you could have a lot of thirsty little piggies and a lot of pretty angry pig farmers if they cannot get access . Mr. Driedger: Mr. Deputy Chaiipe rson, let me assure the mem ber-now I feel more comfortab le, you know, based on the statement, because before any corporation or farmer, bef ore anybody is going to invest literally milliom of dollars now for that kind of operation, they are going to get all the as suran ces that there is not a shortage of water, and we will do that too.

I mean, they come to us and say, you know, is this available to them . So this is big-time investment when these people do that, and they would not take and make that investment on a lukewarm scenario. They would want pretty specific facts from us. Ms. McCormick: And that is the rub, because once you have made the commitment, it is pretty hard to tum it around, and if you are having to say, you know, that water has to be rationed because we have made these commitments , then we go out of the bounds of sustainab le development . •

(1510) Mr. Driedger: Mr. Deputy Chaiipe rson, I again have the as surance from my deputy, my executive people here, that we have 25 to 50 years of data and experie nce, and we would not make that commitment if there was not that total comfort level that it was a sustainable amount of water there. Ms. McCormkk : My next area of questioning is 12-3A-4, Hydrotechnical Services, page 60 in the Supplementary Estimates book. I am interested in the concept of integrated resource plannin g.

This phrase has cropped up, and I would like to have some kind of definition about what is involved in the phrase "integrated resource planning." Mr. Driedger: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I wonder if I could give the member just a little bit of background. Under the Canada-Manitoba Agreement for Water Quantity Surveys, Canada operates 263 water quantity measurement stations across the province, of which a significant portion are cost-shared with the provi nce.

Canada recovers approximately $540,000 annually, or 50 percent of the operating costs of the cost-shared stations from the department This is where we do this jointly. In 1994-95, Canada will close approximately 92 cost-shared water-monitoring statio ns. The closure of these stations can be achieved with a manage able loss of information on stream and rive r levels, flooding. The department has an integrated resource team, which includes all directors within the department as well as other departments as well as the fed eral government in terms of doing the monitoring. Mr. Clif Evans (Inter lake) : Mr.

Deputy Chaiipe rson, I know our time is limited, and I want to put on the record some of the questiom that I will ask, and we will definitely be working on to concurre nce to finish up. I feel that there are many questions, and it is unf ortunate that time availability to us for Natural Reso urces is a- Mr. Driedger: It should be a higher priority. Mr. Clif Evans: Yes, it should be a higher prio rity, and I agree with the minister. In discussing water, and I am going to jump around because of the time and ask some specific questions about comtituency matters at this time .

For years, and I guess before I had the opportunity, or have the opportunity now to be the member for Interlake, the matter of Washow Bay project has come up over the past three or four Estimates. The project has p rocee ded to a certain level and has ceased any type of future development with the Washow Bay project. It is questions I am asked continually: When is it going to proceed? When are we going to go further? When are we going to the next phase? The previous Minister of Natural Resources had

June 28, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4316 indicated to me, I stand to be corrected, if it was not last Estimates, it was the Estimates bef ore , where after certain projects-and he mentioned specifically Gimli constituency-were completed, that fu nds would be made available for the Washow Bay project. Where are we with that? Mr. Driedger: The member was there when I met with people from the Washow Bay area. This has been an ongoing big project One of the difficulties with that specific project is-incid entally, Phase 1 and Phase 2 have been completed and we are doing-Mr.

Deputy Chaiipers on, I am sorry : the first phase has been finished, and we are reviewing the next phase of the Washow Bay pro ject, which is a big, major pro ject. But I have instructed staff that we are bringing fo rward the capital program on a longer-tenn basis, because in my discussions with my Water Reso urces people we have many, many projects throughout the province that basically, at the time when there was more capital money in the Water Reso urces deparbnent, were slated to move ahead.

Then, as the things started sort of being revised within the Department of Natural Res ources , partly my time, what happened was that many of the pro jects have been slowed down to the point where we are just sort of crawling along, and I am having some diffi culty basically, that many of the people who thought there were commitmen ts out there , the commitments have not been fully realized. There is no plan or timetable that they can take any comfort with.

So we are now in the process of developing a longer tenn of five -year capital programs so that we can go back to many of these municipalities and communities and say, listen, this is the expected cost, and this is how we will stage it over a period of time. If we can ultimately get more money for capital programs then, of course, we can escalate that, but we want to develop a plan so that the people do not sit out there and sort of, you know, keep racing their motor with nothing happening.

I know this is a sort of roundabout way of answ ering the member about Washow Bay, but that is one of the many ones that are in the mix there, and we are looking at that under the capital program which is coming fo rward to me now. Mr. ClifEvans: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, now the minister indicates, of course, the change of portfolios, if you want to call it that, change of ministers, but the Washow Ba y project was basic ally-the R.M. of Bifrost ree ve and council were basically told that the next phase of W ashow Bay would be proceed ing in the '90-9 1, '91- 92 year.

When I questioned the minister at that time about it, things changed. Money was not available . Other things changed. Other projects came into play. The next thing you know, when we are finished this, we will be able to continue it. I mean, let us get on with the project It is a project that is well planned. It is ready to go. It is just a matter of going in phases with it. Mr. Driedger: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is not a matter of these projects not being well planne d. I can, you know, just sitting here, in five minutes , maybe list about 24 projects that are well designed and planned.

It is not the planning that is the prob lem; it is getting the monetary funds availa ble and then plan and give these people some level of comfort as to when this will happen. I come from the Department of Highways, where we had a capital budget of $11 0 million. 1be capital program that I have in this deparbnent , you know, is virtually nothing. I mean, virtually any one project would take and eat up the whole amount of money that is available for it, and that is a very big frustration that I have.

I would like nothing better than to do it the way we did in Highways, that you do a project and the benefits of it are there . I do not have that luxury or that privilege with the funding that I have here . I have to tell you that I will be building a very strong case with my colleagues for this coming year, that we have to prioritize the drainage projects throughout the provi nce, because as the safety net programs maybe disappear, there is going to be more and more p ressure on govemment and municipalities to provide this kind of thing so that there are not going to be losses of crops . Mr. Clif Evans: Mr.

Deputy Chair, I will leave that for now and probably bring it back in concurrence along with what the minister had indicated that the drainage problems in the province were so rt of all related to ca pital

4317 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 28, 1994 expend itures, and that, too, I will bring it to his attention during concurrence. As regards the drainage issues within the LGD of Annstrong, the minister, of course , is well aware of some of them , and other drainage concerns in my constituency, which, in the past few years, have become a very major concern and quite a problem . If I may jump back to Venture Manitoba Tours for a question or two? Mr. Driedger : Whatever you want. •

(1520) Mr. Clif Evans : The indications here are $185 ,000 increase in Venture Tours expenditures. Can the minister relate to me what that is about? Mr. Driedger: Mr. Deputy Chair, it has been sort of a standard approach within the department that they took and set aside $30 0,000 anticipated shortfall in the Venture Manitoba Tours ' limited budget, mainly with Hecla. The year before, it was $600,000; this year we are projecting $450,000 shortfall for '95. So it is not that it has gone up; it has actually gone down.

The fa ct is that it was a standard thing that Treasury Board fe lt that they wanted to put $3 00,000 for the anticipated shortfa ll. Invariably , it has always been over, but, ultimate ly, we hope to get down to that point. Mr. CtifE vans: We will certainly be dealing with Venture Tours during the annual report or during concurrence, but just one question with regard to the Hecla re sort. Again, this may relate to the Minister of Highways (Mr.

Fin dlay), but this minister was Minister of Highways, and we have been after both the Minister of Natural Resources, who is the previous Minister of Highwa ys, and the previous Minister of Natural Resources to improve and complete that road from the village to the resort. Again, promises, previous promises to this request Mr. Driedger : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, let me tell you, first of all, that I was responsible for paving the project, the reconstructed portion all the way up to the village-a beautiful job.

Of course, there is the ongoing pres sure certainly that the Venture Tours board visited me when I was Minister of Highways and we were desperately trying to see if we can take it, but not as extensive and elaborate because you want to leave some of the natural components of the road and the scenery and some areas. So we were negotiating at that time; now that I have the Department of Natural Resources respo nsible for Venture Tours, I wish that Minister of Highways at that time would have made a finDer commitment. Ms. McCormick : I would like to move forward to the area of Parks and Natural Areas.

I would like to know where we are on the Parks Act. W ill there be a public consultation? If so, when will the open houses occur? Mr. Driedger: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I thank the member for that question. Last year, when the Parks Act was brought before the Legislature , a tremendous amount of participation took place in the committees at that time. The member is probably aw are of it , and some positive amendments were made from what was initially proposed. Since that time, the act was passed; a portion of it was proclaimed.

The portion that was proclaimed dealt basically with the collection of fee s for private landowners within Parks, and the other portion was basically then meant to be proclaimed. We had at the onset, when I took over this department, we talked about the possibility of proclaiming it by fall of this year, and I have to now publicly state that we will not be in a position to do that. We are developing a plan basically that we want to take fo rward to allow for input from the public in terms of classe s, categories, the types of parks we have, where we allow what, where we do not allow certain things.

We want to develop that in an understandable way before we go to the public and ask for input on the matter. I have now been getting requests and letters and resolutions sent to me by various groups within Parks that are basically asking us to wait for two years before we proclaim. Well, I do not think that we necessarily want to do that, but we are in the process right now of developing what we call a proposal that we can take to the pub lic for input from the public. Yes, there will be consultations. [inteljection]

June 28, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEl'v.IBL Y OF MANITOBA 4318 I was just trying to get from my staff something a little bit more specific than the nonnal saying of soon. It will not be that soon. I will be honest. We do not expect that we might be going to the public until the winter months sometime if we can get our packages put together. Staff are putting in a fair amount of eff ort. We are gathering as much inf onnation as we can . It gets to be very complex when you consider that we have a hundred-and- some-odd parlcs in the province .

We always have a tendency to think of a few major big parlcs, but it is much more than that. We have a whole variety of them that are affe cted in different ways, so that is why I think maybe we are a little slower with coming fo rward with it. Things should be on track. Ms. McCormick : Where are you on the first draft of the systems plan? Is that what you have been talking about what you are trying to get into place? Mr. Driedger: What we are doing at the present time is sort of an inventory so that when we go out to the public we can tell them what it is all at, what is involved in the specific parlcs.

Then we will take and wait fo r the input from the public at which time we will then develop, based on the input from the public, a systems plan for each park. Ms. McCormick : In fact, that was going to be my next question. I am wondering where you are on the inventory fo r natural regions. Do you have representative criteria, for how many areas? Mr. Driedg er : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I will have to update myself more specifically as to exactly how many we have done or where we are at with that thing.

I was a little surprised that we did not have more updated-we did have within the regions, to some de gree, inf onnation, but when you start putting this whole thing together just on parts in tenns of what is there, what are the present regulations, what are the controls , what is allowed, not allo wed, as you start putting this whole picture together, it all of a sudden gets to be a complex puzzle. That is why staff are having a little bit more difficulty doing it.

Already , I want to tell the member and repeat again that we have people like the Whiteshell cottage owners association, others who are now asking us to not rush so that we will do it right, that this is going to be for a long time . This is going to be virtually like something we did with our fo restry, which I am also sending out, or the water policy or the special netwoiks places which I will be getting available as well, that once we have this in place, that should be a long, long-tenn effect ive plan. Ms.

McCormick : One of the concerns with people that I have spoken to about this process is the extent to which the science methodology is being applied to the development of criteria which will then detennine what does in fact exist in these unique regions and what in fact must be done in order to preserve them . Are you going to be using the science methodology to develop protocols to apply to the proce ss? Mr. Driedger : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, my deputy tells me that we are on the fringe of app lying that kind of a technology at the present time.

In fact, we have some people who are attending special conf erences to get ourselves briefed to know that we can do it that way. We will be applying that as much as we can as we bring this thing forw ard. Again, the crucial thing that I think was stress ed very strongly at the time when the legislation came fo rward was that the consultation process would be a very important part, where the people themselves are going to be able to tell us.

I subscribe to that principle because there is nothing that is more ineff ective than governments coming fo rward with the heavy hand of government saying , this is how I think you should do it. I find that in many of the things that we are working with, whether it is with the commer cial fishermen and people of that nature, when you give them a chance to get involved and have their inp ut, it is smprising how much easier things work and how much more successful. • (1 530) Ms. McCormick : I now want to ask some of the same science-related questions with respect to the Manitoba action plan on special places.

Again, the concern is there that the scientific criteria which

4319 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 28, 1994 are in the process of being developed do not appe ar in the action plan. I guess the problem was highlighted by the Spruce Woods fiasco that in fact it points to a need for more clarity to avoid situations like that. So I would like to ask the minister where the whole concept of the application of this science appears in the action plan and how we can use this scientific approach which in fact the minister is obviously supporting if you are getting your staff up to speed in terms of its application. I would like to know, though, where it sort of shows up.

At what point in the action plan is this science applied? Mr. Driedger: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, let me first of all say to the member that the ref erence to the Spruce Woods thing as a fiasco, I beg to differ on that for the simple reason that 10 years ago-and this will illustrate the changes that are taking place within government, within the government 's operatio ns.

Ten years ago when 50 acres was set aside-and this is no reflection on the previous administrati on; I think at that time they did that with their best interest, I suppose-the boy scouts and girl scouts went in and planted Scotch pines in the prairie grass. Nobody gave any thought about it until ultimately the group that is looking at retaining the prairie type of inventory that we have realized what was going on. My staff readily admit that , because it started 10 years ago, it was sort of in the mix and nobody paid that much attention to it.

When this was raised, we instantly said oops, and, as a result with voluntee rs, we will correct this year's mistake, and we will also correct the larger trees, that is, if it has to be, cut them for Christmas trees or whatever the case may be. My directors told me-and incidentally met with the people involved who have since written me and told me they were very impressed with the kind of meetings that they had with the resource people .

My directors tell me that they will be much more conscientious of these kinds of situations for the futu re, and that is why some of these things, sometimes people think it is just print. By and la rge , our professional people within the department use these things. I think we have made tremendous progress; as I illustrated once before already, just in this area alone with this Spruce Woods thing, that is within the last 10 years, in fact, within the last three years that we caught it. There are so many things that the department and my staff are coming up to speed on.

Once you have a blueprint in place , like the one that the member holds in her hand and I have here, with water and fo res try-if we have the one on parks, I think, ultimately then there is a blueprint for the future to make sure that we have susta inable development in tenns of how we do things . Ms. McCormick: What I am asking specifically is, where are the scientific criteria applied in the action plan to prevent the oops? Mr. Driedg er: Mr. Deputy Chair person, the member asked me how we are going to use the scientific data or how this would apply here.

If the member looks on page 3 where it says "data collection, policy dire ction for the Provincial Networlc of Special Places," the data collection is a very important part of the invent ory. Our staff or a special team meet once a week among themselves to take and bring this inform ation up to date. In fact, we are establishing a very sophisticated inf ormation-gathering system so that we have all these things in place. I think maybe the member thinks it is not moving fast enough.

I think we are making good progress, and we are so much more conscientious and sensitive to a bunch of the proposed changes . 1be member says it is scientific data. If you will read sort of the policy dire ctions, that is basically what our staff are app lying in tenns of developing the strate gy. You need to have the data first of all. You need to have the invent ory. 1ben you take and apply sort of the criteria once it is classified as to how you will deal with those things for the future. Ms. McCormick: I will take a look at the answer in the context of the document and then see if I have more questions.

I can petbaps get back to the minister at another time. Another area then fo llowing is the Canadian Heritage Rivers statement at the bottom of page 66. I know that there is a province-wide review of

June 28, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4320 rivers with Cana dian Heritage Rivers status currently und erway. We have had some letters directed to our caucus asking for the status on I think it is the Hayes River. I was wondering where we are with this. Mr. Driedger: Mr. Deputy Chaitperson, first of all let me say-and I think I have mentioned this, and certainly my colleague the Minister of Agriculture (Mr.

Eons) mentioned this at the time when he was the Minister of Natural Resources the Seal River, which was designated a number of years ago, at the time, in fact shortly after 14 of us courageous canoeists-! say that with a chuckle paddled down the Wolverine and Seal rivers up to the Hudson Bay. A tremendous experience . Scary, but a tremendous experience . At the time when we came back from tha t trip, within a month I think, the Seal River was designated as a heritage river. We have support from the various commun ities.

It was raised in the House as to the designation of the Hayes River to have that designated as a heritage river. We are receptive to the idea, but we want to make sure that we take and follow the same process that was done with the Seal River. So we I think have the support of most of the communities that are involved along there . As the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) raised this question in the House and brought in a private member 's resolutio n, and we basic ally-would you believe it? You know on a private member's resolution, we supported it and said we would proceed with it. Ms.

McCormick : I would like to move fo rward then to some questions on Fore stry. You were saying yesteroay tha t the Fore stty unit's director is no longer with the d epartment and that there have been some changes made. I am wondering if you could describe what kinds of changes have been made within the Forestry unit. Mr. Driedger : Mr. Deputy Chairpers on, no, the member is not correct The director of the Forestry branch, Mr. Dave Rannard, is still the director. We are advertising for a new indi vidual , and Mr.

Rannard is going to continue on in an advisory capacity until his retirement, but he is still the director right at the present time. It is very crucial for this department, certainly under the circumstances where we are dealing with the Louisiana-Pacific thing, the Repap , with the adde d interest that has de veloped in the timber industty by our smaller operators. I think reference was made to it yesterday by the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner). So it is very important.

We fe lt that this is one de partment or one branch that had not been really reorganized to a de gree, and that is what we are in the process of doin g, because we want to get more progressive in the economics and the marketing end of it so that we are not just basically a supp lier of inf ormation but that we have also a role to play in this thing. Mr. Deputy Chairpers on: Order, please . Is it the will of the committee that I not see the clock for another 10 min utes? Agreed? [agreed] Ms.

McCormick : In the interest of time, I am going to pass by my que stions on some of the silviculture and fo rest management issues and move forward to some questions I have with respect to FIShe ries. One situ ation that is develo ping at the international and national level is a concern for the use of lead sinkers. Some jurisdictions have banned lead weights for game fishing type of activities in fav our of stainl ess steel sinkers. Does the minister have any plans in this regard, or is he aw are of this concern? Mr. Driedger : No, that is not an issue that has really surfac ed with myself.

I must say, though, that Manit oba has been the leader in terms of some of the change s, for example , the barbless hooks. We turned out to be the leaders, I think, across the country in terms of the p romotion of catch and rel ease. We are expanding that program continual ly. In fa ct, I am contemplating at the present time to look at developing that program fu rther along the Red and Assiniboine rivers , which is an underutilized sport fishin g area . • (1 540) The member makes reference to stainless steel versus lead in terms of weights for fishing.

We have started the process in duck hunting, for example, where we hav e stainless steel shot instead of lead shot for the obvious reasons, and

4321 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 28, 1994 we are looking at continuing to expand that. We are working very closely with the Manitoba Wtldlife Federation and that end of it. Specifically , using lead weights versus stainless steel weights in sport fishing has not really come to my attention. If it does, we will certainly look at it. Ms.

McCormick : In fact, that takes care of my question under Game and Fur Management But I will get some stuff to you on the concern for lead weights-it is pretty well the same issue-and perhaps have your department review it to determine whether the minister might wish to be proactive in this area. I will move on then now. I have some questions about the support of the Fort Whyte Centre . Can you tell me what amount of the departme nt's budget goes into the maintenance of the Fort Whyte Centre? Mr. Driedger: The member has to give me a little time because we are moving across such a big range.

I will get that infonn ation specifically as to-I am told that we give them a $5 ,00 0 unconditional grant , and that is it. Other than that, they do their own fundraisin g. We , of course , are very supportive of what they are doing. Ms. McCormick: I guess I have several questions on the Sus tainable Development Co-ordination Unit. With respect to the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund , who is on the committee ? Mr. Driedger: There is a committee of cabinet which is basically called the Sus tainable .

Development Committee of Cabinet, where we have all the Vflrious depar tments that are represented on there. Mr. Cummings, the Minister of Environment, is the chairperson of it; and myself; Agriculture; Industry, Trade and Tourism; Rural Develo pmen t-it is made up of approximately eight diffe rent ministers. There is this committee, which is a very high profile cabinet committee that deals with all these issues . It is swprising- Mr. Bob Sopuck is the one who is the CEO, I supp ose, if we could call him that.

I can tell the m ember that we deal with as many as 40, 50 and 60 app lications a month of people who are coming forward with various pro jects and looking for suppo rt, of course. The awareness of the general public in terms of sustainable development is just unreal. I think the provi nce and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) can take pride in the fact that we are leaders in that regard across the country . Ms. McCormick: Are there other criteria against which the app lications are evaluated and does that occur prior to the app lications reaching the cabinet table? Mr.

Driedger: The nonn al p roces s is that groups, individuals, organizations make their applications to Mr. Sopuck , the chairman, and he then circulates it to the related departments that would have interest in it for an asse ssment on it. At the time that we sit and deal with them, we have the departmental inf onnation that is necessary to make these decisions. For exampl e, if some individuals want to undertake work dealing with wildlife when my department is already doing it, it would be irresponsible if we then took and said, well, okay, we will find somebody to do it for the survey.

That is the kind of process that takes place within my department. It takes place with Agriculture. It takes place with things that are related to Environment. There is a good screening p rocess and info nnation-gathering process before we make decisions. Ms. McCormick : I am going to have to hurry forward to the Conservation Data Centre. I am interested in finding out what is the actual budget for the Conservation Data Centre for this year? Mr. Driedger: Mr. Deputy Chairpe rson, the member moves along at a good clip and we are trying to keep up in terms of getting the information.

I realize, because we are not following a pattern. We provide a hundred thousand dollars in our appropri ation for the Conserv ation Data Centre. Ms. McCor mick: I am aware that is the amount in the budget estimate. I asked what was the actual budget. I understand the centre had a fundraising goal and I wanted to know whether the fundraising goal was met. Mr. Driedger : In year one , we had committed $1 00, 000 from the Department of Natural Reso urces and the same thing in this curre nt year.

June 28, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4322 Then we had in kind under the Special Conservation Fund, there was $74,000 each year, so the total gover nment participation was $174,000 in each year, and then we have Hydro that has been giving grants as well. Then we have the Canadian Wildlif e Service, which is the fe deral government, has pu t in $40 ,000. Then we have private corporations, Ducks Unl imited, Falconbridge, et cetera, which works out to $1 5,000. Nature Conservancy of Canada has put in $25,000 each year. We have the Gray Owl Fund. The total budget last year was $239,700.

For this year, the total is $227,000. Ms. McCormick : I would like to explore with you the relationship between Linnett and CDC. Actually, I am ge tting the sense here that we are not going to get finished with this, and perhaps I am going to have to take fo rward the remainder of my questions into the concurre nce activity. If the minis ter can answ er on the Linne tt question then- Mr. Driedger: The area of Linne tt is something I would advise the member that we should not rush into. It takes a while to explain that.

I can maybe mention to the member, because of the short time frame that we have here in terms of dealing with this, if she has specific questions, if she wants to mark them down and send them to me, we will respond by way of writing. That way she need not necessa rily wor ry about the concurre nce.

I have always bee n known to get information back to people , and I will give that an undertaking as well, because there are probably some areas that she fe els-if she wants more inf ormation, then I am prepared to provide that, based on the circumstances the way we have here, because to get into Linne tt at this stage of the game would take quite a while . I fe el that it needs a good discussion in terms of clarifying what is happening there. Ms. McCormick : I will just wrap up. It is unfortunate that this department is getting such short shrift. An Honourable Member: It is not fair. Ms.

McCormick : It is not fair. •

(1550) Mr. Deputy Chairperson : Item l. (

b) Executive Support

(1) Sa laries and Employee Benef its $36 3 ,200-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $83,400-pass. l. (

c) Venture Man itoba Tours Ltd. $485,000- pass. l. (

d) Financial Services

(1) Sa laries and Employee Benefits $1,1 16,600-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $212 ,200-pass. l. (

e) Human Resource Management

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $822,50 0--p ass;

(2) Other Expenditures $147,200--p ass. l. (

f) Systems Co-o rd ination

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $219, 700-pa ss;

(2) Other Expenditures $31,600--p ass. l. (

g) Administrative Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $602,800 -p ass;

(2) Other Expenditures $333,400--p ass. 2. Regional Operations (

a) He adqu arters Operations

(1) Salaries an d Employee Benefits $1, 438 ,70 0- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1, 371 ,700--pass;

(3) Problem Wildlif e Control $272,0 00- pass;

(4) Less: Recover able from Other Appropriations $260, 000-(p ass). 2.(

b) Northwest Reg ion

(1) Sala ries and Employee Benefits $1 ,903,7 00--pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $634,700--pass. 2.(

c) Northeast Region

(1) Sa laries and Employee Benefits $1 ,912,5 00--p ass;

(2) Other Expenditures $869, 700--pass. 2.(

d) Central Region

(1) Salaries and Employee Benef its $4,2 67 ,400 -p ass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1,427 ,000--pass. 2.(

e) Eastern Region

(1) Salaries and Employee Benef its $3,0 3 1 ,3 00- pa ss;

(2) Other Expenditures $844,000-pass. 2.(

t) We stern Region

(1) Salaries and Employee Benef its $4,283 ,400 -p ass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1,375,200--pass. 2.(

g) Fire Program

(1) Salaries and Employee Be nef its $2,615 ,400 -pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $7,428, 700--p ass.

4323 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 28, 1994 Resolution 12.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Ma jesty a sum not exceeding $33, 415, 400 for Natural Resources , Regional Operati ons, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day ofMarch, 1995. Resolution 12.3: 3. Resour ce Programs (

a) Water Resources

(1) Administration (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $375,500--pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $385 ,500 -p ass; (

c) Grant Assistance $25,000 --pass . 3. (a)

(2) Water Licensing and Appr ovals (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $615,7 00--pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $32,400-p ass. 3.(a)

(3) Water Management (

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-5-57
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 5th hansardpdf 57.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	874cb0308edc5810a76ffaec514f75856ef0f028

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