Manitoba Hansard — 1 May 1996 (Sitting 27, 36th Legislature, 2nd Session)

36-2-27

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVI No. 27- 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, May 1, 1996

Name ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANI TOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Rob lin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charles wood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River &.1:4' N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

1553 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, May 1, 1996 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Home Care Services Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Debra McNicholl, Diane Rodrigue, Diane Waterchuk and others requesting the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of E.N.D. Smalling, C. Panergo, J.

Lillies and others requesting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of J. Nicolson, W. Teichroeb, Helen Sawatsky and others requesting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Elizabeth Smedts, Ian B.

Fraser, Jason Paas and others requesting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Patricia Cameron, A.J. Murphy, K. Alix and others requesting the Premier and the Min ister of Health to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Angel Busch, Bernice Ezirim, B.

McGregor and others requesting the Premier and the Minister of Health consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Seasonal Camping Fees Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

WHEREAS seasonal camping has provided an affordable form of recreation for many Manitobans; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has announced increases in seasonal camping fees of up to 100 percent; and THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and

WHEREAS this huge increase is far more than any cost of-living increase; and

WHEREAS this increase will lead to many people being unable to afford seasonal camping. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly urge the provincial government not to increase seasonal camping fees by such a large amount. Home Care Services Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honoura ble member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

1554 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 1996 THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people 's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Speaker: Yes. The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 pro vincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their JObs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourab le member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least s1x occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private j(H-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people 's health being compromised, and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services *

(1335) May 1, 1996 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1555 Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honou rable member for Broadway (Mr. Santos). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Speaker: Yes? The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth· THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly pri vate for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson of Committees): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), that the report of the committee be received.

Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Provincial Flooding Update Hon. Brian Pallister (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, I have a statement for the House. I rise in the House today to update all members on the serious flooding situation in our province. The Red River began to crest Monday night in Emerson and Letellier areas. It appears the heaviest flooding along the river will continue through today and tomorrow. Yesterday morning, accompanied by the honourable First Minister (Mr. Filmon), the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Driedger) and the Minister of Highways (Mr.

Find lay), we conducted a land tour of some of the most affected areas including the communities of Emerson, St. Jean, Morris, Ste. Agathe, Ste. Adolphe and the Red River Floodway inlet. Although I have spoken before about the awesome power of nature, yesterday I was more impressed by the awesome power of community spirit. Throughout our tour we heard about and witnessed the contribution of literally hundreds of volunteers who have taken time away from their work, their schools and families to assist in flood preparations.

Madam Speaker, while it is sometimes easy to help out a relative or friend, many of the volunteers are helping out Manitobans whom they have never met. That demonstrates the true definition of volunteerism. I personally want to thank the schools, churches, community groups, small businesses and individuals who have donated their time and strength to this effort. While much of the flood operation has been centred around building sandbag dikes to protect communities and private property, many Manitobans have found other ways to assist the victims, and potential victims as well, of this disaster.

1556 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 1996 We have all heard about willing people that donated their boats, trucks, farm equipment to aid the operation. We have seen people like RCMP Sergeant John Fleming risk his own life by rescuing an Emerson woman who was almost swept away by the Red River. We have witnessed many others who have helped rescue people, livestock and personal possessions. These are actions we might refer to as above the call of duty but to those willing to accept that call, we thank you. *

(1340) I would also like to mention the crew of about 70 army reservists from Winnipeg, Portage Ia Prairie and Brandon who have helped in sandbagging and other flood fighting actiVIties. This is a force that we rely on through virtually every major natural disaster in the prm·ince, and I thank them for their professionalism and dedicated support. There are others, \vho by virtue of their jobs or positions, are placed in a position of responsibility during these times. I refer to the mayors. reeves, municipal councils and their staff, as \vell as federal and provincial officials and their staff.

Madam Speaker, time after time in visiting these communities we hear about how much more prepared and co-ordinated this flood operation is in comparison with the flood of 1979. The credit must go to local authorities who with the assistance of the Manitoba Emergency Measures Organization, Natural Resources, Highways, Agriculture and other departments, have well-engineered emergency plans and a capable group of people to see those plans carried out. I might add that earlier today I, along with representatives of Scouts Canada. signed a proclamation declaring May 5 to II Emergency Preparedness Week.

The theme for this year is: plan for emergencies today, and I can truly say the nlue of preparedness has been demonstrated over the past few weeks. But the task at hand is not over. As I mentioned, flood waters have begun cresting and will remain at their highest levels over the next few days. I encourage all Manitobans to offer their assistance to the local communities affected by flooding. Municipal officials co-ordinating the local flood effort and potential volunteers should contact those offices to find out ways in which they can help.

I want to remind all Manitobans to exercise extreme caution in the flood-affected areas. We have had several reports of sightseers interfering with emergency operations at hand and potentially endangering their lives or the lives of the workers onsite. I ask all Manitobans to use their good judgment and common sense during this period. We have thus far managed to escape loss of life. That is how I wish this operation and all of us wish this operation to end. Madam Speaker, I continue to be impressed by the massive volunteer effort in fighting the 1996 flood.

I want to assure those who have contributed to this point that their initiative has given us all a greater sense of confidence that our efforts will succeed in saving the lives, homes and personal property of Manitobans. Thank you. Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): I appreciate the updates that we have been getting from the Minister of Government Services having to do with the great flood of Manitoba in 1996. I want to thank him again today for bringing this information to us. I also want to agree with many of the things that the minister has said.

I want to join, on behalf of us on this side of the House. in recognizing the tremendous con tribution of volunteers who have played so active a role in defending Manitobans, their lives and their possessions against the ravages of Mother Nature. I want to join with the minister in particularly mentioning Sergeant John Fleming. It is sort of the Manitoba spirit. I think. that gets people motivated to put their O\\TI life and limb in danger in helping out fellow Manitobans in their time of need.

I think Sergeant Fleming is a great personification of the spirit that Manitobans have when it comes to co-operating together in facing the disasters that we do from time to time come across. I also want to pay attention to the army reservists who have joined in the battle. Their co-operation and their work in this is very much appreciated, I am sure, by those directly affected. It is good to know that Manitobans can

May 1, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1557 come together in a time of need and work together to battle the problems that we face every now and then. That leads me, however, to some more of the challenges that are coming up into the future. I would encourage the minister to include the Lake Manitoba, Portage diversion, Interlake area in the updates that we get from his department. We would be very interested to know the situation in that part of the province. I would also like to point out that the next challenge that faces the people in these areas is going to be getting the crop in at a decent time.

The seeding in these areas will in all likelihood be backed up to a point where we will be at a disaster area level there as well. So I am just pointing that out, that is going to be the next challenge we face. I want to, again, make sure we recognize the volunteers, not only for the sandbagging and the work they are doing right now, but the planning that is going to take place, has taken place, and will take place in case we go through this again at some point in the future. I do want to remind the minister, though, that he needs to sit with the federal people and end the squabble that has played a

part in slowing down the reaction to this year's flood. It is not good enough to simply point the finger in the direction of the federal government in terms of compensation to R.M.s from last year. The R.M.s that have complained to us that they have not been compensated for last year, have not been able to move forward as quickly as they would like in fighting the flood of this year. Having said all that, I would like to thank the minister again for presenting this information to the House. * (1345 ) Manitoba HydroBonds Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I have a brief ministerial statement for the House. I would like to take this opportunity to announce that once again Manitobans will have the opportunity to invest in their province when HydroBonds Series V go on sale on May 21. HydroBonds are being reintroduced to replace Series III, which will mature in June. Manitobans have long prided themselves on being self sustaining by investing in the future of their own province.

They understand that by funding the generation and supply of Manitoba's hydroelectric power they provide themselves with financial benefits and ensure a successful economic future for Manitoba's most important natural resource. Series V of Manitoba Hydro Savings Bonds will be available for a five-year term and will be a solid addition to any investment portfolio. HydroBonds, together with the Builder Bonds, have a proven track record, raising more than $2.2 billion for the province, and have generated $350 million in interest payments exclusively to Manitobans.

Today, they continue to benefit the province by allowing us to meet more of our borrowing needs right here in Manitoba. The terms and conditions will be the same as for last year's Builder Bonds. To ensure that all Manitobans have a chance to take advantage of this investment opportunity, the bonds will be issued in denominations as low as $100. Madam Speaker, I would like also to take this opportunity to thank Manitobans for the support they have shown through past contributions and to encourage continued investment in the future of our province. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I thank the honourable minister for the statement and, of course, welcome the fact that Manitobans will have an opportunity to invest in this great asset, Manitoba Hydro, a publicly operated, publicly owned utility. Manitobans know a good investment when they see one. I cannot help but think, Madam Speaker, that one of the reasons the Manitoba Hydro utility is in such good shape today is the fact that it does obtain considerable revenues, which goes back, in large measure, to the important investment made in Limestone under the previous government.

Manitobans today are benefiting from the foresight and the courage of those who were in gover nment some years ago, in the previous administration, who went ahead with the Limestone project.

1558 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 1996 In conclusion, Madam Speaker, I also am very pleased to note that we have among the lowest utility rates in the country, and I say that is because of the historical development, and let us hope that, all together in this House, we will ensure that the publicly mmed and publicly operated utility, Manitoba Hydro, will remain that way for many years to come. *

(1350) TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I am pleased to table the report and the recommendations of the Judicial Compensation Committee . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill13-The Highway Traffic Amendment Act Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): I move, seconded by the Minister of Rural Development (Mr.

Derkach), that leave be given to introduce Bill 13, The Highway Traffic Amendment (Lighting on Agricultural Equipment) Act (Loi modifiant le Code de Ia route) (eclairage de l'equipement agricole), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill14-The Manitoba Trading Corporation Amendment Act Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), that leave be given to introduce Bill 14, The Manitoba Trading Corporation Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Societe commerciale du Manitoba), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. BilllS-The Tourism and Recreation Amendment Act Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Driedger), that leave be given to introduce Bill 15, The Tourism and Recreation Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur le tourisme et les loisirs), and that the same be now received and read a first time Motion agreed to. Bill 16- The Charleswood Bridge Facilitation Act Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): Madam Speaker. I move, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Ernst), that leave be given to introduce Bill 16. The Charleswood Bridge Facilitation Act (Loi facilitant !'application de !'entente sur le pont Charleswood), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw all honourable members' attention, firstly, to the Speaker's Gallery. where we have with us today the Honourable Ralph Klein. Premier of the Province of Alberta. Also, seated in the loge to my left, we have David Orlikow. the former MLA for St. Johns. Seated in the public gallery we have 20 seniors from Kimberley Grace Seniors under the direction of Lloyd Lovell. This seniors' residence is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. *

(1355) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD BFI Landfill Site Environmental Licensing Mr. Ga11· Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, last evening I attended a parents advisory

May 1, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1559 committee meeting and a number of members of the public were there with myself and the Minister of Labour (Mr. Toews) talking about the massive cutbacks in public education and the impact it had on taxpayers in the community. Madam Speaker, we have today learned that the government has approved a licence for BFI which the City of Winnipeg argues will cost the taxpayers of the city of Winnipeg up to $7 million in lost tipping fees.

I would like to ask the Premier today, did the government consider this potential loss of up to $7 million and its impact on the taxpayers and the services of the city of Winnipeg when it made its decision to issue the licence to the BFI proposal? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, this is an issue that has been ongoing for a number of years. In fact, through the Capital Region Committee, we have been trying to assemble the information and make sure that all the parties brought to bear their best planning on this issue.

Unfortunately, the city and the surrounding municipalities did not come to an understanding on regional planning for waste disposal, and this was the result of communities surrounding the city of Winnipeg looking for an opportunity for a waste disposal site which was formerly unavailable to them. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, again, my supplementary question to the Premier (Mr. Filmon): The City of Winnipeg has identified a loss of up to $7 million to build a second landfill site.

In light of the fact that the Environment Commission report does not deal with this loss of income, will the Premier be considering the $7- million loss in income and not accept this BFI site and make a decision on behalf of the taxpayers of the city of Winnipeg so that we will not have this increased taxation of $7 million for a second landfill site that many members of the community believe, inside and outside of the capital region, that we do not require? Mr. Cummings: Almost two decades ago, the City of Winnipeg walked away from picking up commercial waste.

They indicated to the producers of commercial waste that they would only be picking up once a week, and if that was insufficient, they could hire somebody to haul away their waste. There were only a limited number of places that they could take it. They then began to haul, through private haulers, to a landfill owned by the City of Winnipeg. At the same time, the surrounding areas were looking for landftll opportunities and they were denied by the City of Winnipeg the opportunity to hire space, to rent space, to buy space in the existing landfill.

Therefore, we are now sitting with a situation \vhere there is a need and a desire on the part of many of the industrial producers looking for an opportunity to site their waste. At the same time, there are a number of communities in the surrounding region that were denied the opportunity to use Brady landfill. *

(1400) Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, it may not be surprising to the members of this side of the House that 20 years ago the City of Winnipeg may have made a mistake conside ring that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and many of his colleagues were controlling the City of Winnipeg in those days. What we desire for the future is not to make the same mistak es as the Premier made in the past, so I will address this question to the Premier.

Will he not repeat the mistakes of the past that he made when he was at City Council and many of his other colleagues made when they were in control of City Council, will he not repeat the mistakes of the past and will he listen to the citizens of the city of Winnipeg and a number of other members of the recycling community who say that we do not need two waste sites, and, furthermore, it will cost the city of Winnipeg taxpayers up to $7 million? Let us make a good decision in the future rather than repeating the bad decisions of the Premier in the past. Mr.

Cummings: Madam Speaker, considering that the comment just came from a former Minister of Urban Affairs who had the opportunity to deal with the issue, what did he do when he was in office? He did nothing. In fact, he perpetuated a situation where the city of Winnipeg- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Cummings: Madam Speaker, there is considerable disagreement over the concerns that the city has raised.

1560 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 1996 They have stated their issues surrounding the environmental concerns. They have stated their issues surrounding financial concerns. There is no agreement on the issue that they have raised around financial concerns. There have been numerous proposals put forward for the city to sit down and discuss the opportunity for co operation in the handling of waste in the capital region. That has not occurred. I offered my office, any opportunity at all to bring both sides to the table, to sit down and discuss the future of management of waste in this area.

The City of Winnipeg, unfortunately, and I would \\ish that it was otherwise, has not agreed to come to the table to discuss these Issues Their position consistently has been no. Home Care Program Privatization-Moratorium Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier. There are no studies, no reports, no experts justif}·ing the government's ridiculous scheme of privatization of home care. Visitors yesterday summ ed it up best, I think, when they said, and I quote: I get the feeling people who want to make money out of a private system are pushing for it.

Madam Speaker, when will the Premier stop playing with the lives of thousands of Manitobans, stop spending up to half a million dollars a day on a contingency plan that is not working and do the right thing, put a halt to privatization for a year, allow for public input. and allow the people of Manitoba to have a say in this crazy scheme of privatization? Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, after all of the things that have been said and done by New Democrats about their view of our neighbours to the south, it is rather strange that they should invite them here and recruit them to fight their battles on the poli tical front. It was interesting yesterday to have visitors from the United States whom the honourable member and I were pleased to welcome to Manitoba and to be reminded about why they were really here.

They were here because they wanted to access a part of our health system, that is, prescription drugs at much reduced cost to what our American friends to the south can access them. But it is passing strange to me that New Democrats should call on the Americans to help them make their case. Mr. Chomiak: My supplementary to the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) or the Minister of Health: How does the Premier or the minister JUStif}· sending in high-priced health officials, officials from the ministr)''s department at senior levels, earning $50,000 and $60,000 a year, into people's homes to do laundry and bathing when you have thousands of workers who are prepared to go and do the job, a job they IO\ e and a job they care for, if you would only put your privatization scheme on hold for a year? Mr.

McCrae: The honourable member might well put that question to his friend Peter Olfcrt who denies the clients of our home care system the essential services that they require so much Why docs the honourable member not put the question to where it belongs? Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker. how docs the Premier tolerate the attitude of this minister'7 Even in Alberta. when the public said enough privatization the government backed do\\n and said no more privatization. Will the Premier stand up for the people of Manitoba'1 Some Honourable Members: Oh. oh. Madam Speaker: Order. please. Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the hypocrisy of the member for Kildonan never ceases to amaze me. I noted that when the Premier of Alberta was introduced he declined to applaud for him. I heard him- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, on a point of order, I am used to the Premier's insults but I would ask the Premier to withdraw that statement insofar as that is factually inaccurate Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I will withdraw the comment. Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable First Minister. * * *

May 1, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1561 Madam Speaker: The honourable First Minister, to reply to the question. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I did not actually see the member opposite because I was watching his Leader and deputy leader, neither of whom applauded. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, on a point of order, I would ask the Premier to withdraw that. He is factually incorrect. As a courte sy, we always applaud visitors to this Chamber.

The Premier has as many factual points today before this Chamber on who is applauding and who is not as he has on home care, where he has no facts, no figures and no studies to justifY his decision. I would ask the Premier to withdraw that statement and withdraw the priva tization plans. Let us get on with this provmce. Mr. Filmon: In response to the question of the member for Kildonan (Mr.

Chomiak), I will repeat for him, as I have every day in this H ouse, that the issue of introducing matters of competition and alternatives within the delivery of the home care system in this province is one of ensuring that we do not place in jeopardy the people who depend upon the services of home care- Madam Speaker: Order, please. I did not address the point of order. I initially thought perhaps the Premier was going to speak to the point of order raised by the Leader of the official opposition.

The honourable Leader of the official opposition did not have a point of order. * * * Madam Speaker: The honourable First Minister, to complete his response. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I interrupted the honourable First Minister prior to the completion of his answer to address the point of order. The honourable First Minister, to quickly complete his response. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, as I have said on numerous occasions, the home care system of this province exists to serve the needs of those who depend upon it for care, not the needs of those who work in the system.

We are introducing an element of competition within the system and alternatives and flexibility in the system so that those people cannot be held at ransom by people who wish to withdraw their services from them. Social Assist ance Rate Reduction Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, seniors in Manitoba have said that this government is mean-spirited and further proof of that comes today, a sad day for thousands of Manitobans whose budgets are being cut by at least 21 percent for food, clothing and household needs, and they are left with $46.80 for single employables and $81.50 for couples without children. People are phoning me and asking how can they possibly live on $411 a month, including rent. I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services the same question. How does she expect these people to live on $411 a month? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, again, I thank my honourable friend for that question because it does allow me again to tell Manitobans that the people whom we have preserved on welfare are the seniors, are those with disa bilities, are women and children who are in abuse shelters and those with children under the age of six. There were no changes to those rates.

We have said many times as a government that the best form of social security is a job, and the welfare reforms that we have armounced will indeed take a very proactive approach to trying to help people get off of welfare and out of the cycle of poverty and into meaningful jobs. *

(1410) Employment Creation Program Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I would like to table copies of a document titled

1562 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 1996 Employment Growth in Manitoba, prepared by the mem ber for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), which show that this government has a pathetic record in terms of job creation compared to its predecessors. I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services, can the minister tell the 84,000 recipients of social assistan ce, the vast majority of whom are deemed employable, where are the jobs that she expects them to get, especially since her own job creation goal is for only 700 positions? Where are the tens of thousands of jobs that she thinks are there?

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for that question because, again, it allows me the opportunity to tell Manitobans that government is not going to be the vehicle for job creation� it will be the private sector.

The initiatives that my colleague in Industry, Trade and Tourism is undertak ing and the balanced budget legislation that our government has brought in where we have committed to no major increases in taxes-and that includes business tax-has put Manitoba in a good position to have the private sector come to Manitoba and create the jobs that will be needed in the future We have a track record which Manitobans can be very proud of Domestic Violence Counselling Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Can the Minister of Family Sen·ices tell one of my constituents and many other abused women in the same situation who can no longer afford bus tickets to go for abuse counselling, whether this minister wants them to forgo the help that they need and instead force them-because of this punitive policy of welfare cuts-to relive their abuse and to get no assistance so they can get on with their lives ? Is this the intention of this minister, to penalize these individuals? Hon.

Bonnie Mitc helson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker. again, I repeat for my honou rable friend because he does not seem to have understo od the reform s that we announced just a few months ago, that in fact those with young children, those women and children that are in abuse shelters, the disabled and seniors have not had any changes to their rates. So I am convinced- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourab le Minister of Family Sen·ices, to complete her response. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I know that the programs that we have put in place like Taking Charge!, like our partnerships with the private sector that are looking at where the job opportunities are, the individual personal job plans that we are developing with people in Manitoba will help women break the cycle of poverty on welfare and find meaningful jobs. Headingley Correctional Institution Independent ReYiew Mr. Gord Mackintos h (St. Johns): Madam Speaker . my question is for the Minister of Justice.

The Headingl ey riot is again exposing what is beneath the minister's press releases and tough talk in law and order when she is even turning a blind eye to justice and safety right under her nose, and now public confidence must be restored, beginning with a full public inquiry. My question is, would the minister tell Manitobans that her so-called independent review means evidence cannot be compelled. informat ion is not under oath, informers are not protected. no questioning in full public view, no req uirement for public release of findings and recommendations') What is the minister afraid of? Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, let me just correct the member in some areas First of all, we intend our independent review to be a review which is vel}' compr ehensive in which individuals who have a story to tell will certainly be able to tell it. We understand as well there are a number of individuals who are seeking to have a confidential opportunity to express their concerns, and so we could. as the member said, wait forever, wait until we have had criminal charges disposed of Members across the way seem to be taking advice from I do not know whom.

We have taken our advice from a justice of the Supreme Court who has suggested and has

May 1, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1563 said that it is very difficult to hold a public inquiry at the same time that you would hold a criminal trial. That is just very diffi cult, so what we are doing is in a very open way committing to the independent review, and I have said from the very beginning that the results of that most certainly will be public. Mr.

Mackintosh: Would the minister who says that cri minal charges and an inquiry cannot run at the same time-absurd in light of the W estray inquiry decision of the Supreme Court which said, the public inquiry, it does proceed-would she table the legal opinion that she says that she is relying on? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, I am relying on remarks by a justice of the Supreme Court, Justice Sopinka. I am relying also on the view that this is very difficult for the courts and that in this case we want to do the very best job that we can. That is why we are proceeding in the way we are now.

We are proceeding with the independent review. There is nothing to hide. There will be nothing hidden. Within this process we expect to look fully at all of the issues, some of which have been raised over the past few days and others which correctional officers may wish to raise during the process. It will be a very full and complete opportunity and the results will most certainly be made public. Mr.

Mackintosh: Absent tabling a legal opinion, would the minister admit, at least admit, that the gist of the Westray decision is that any decision necessary to protect the rights of the accused can safely be left with the commissioner of the inquiry? Will she just get out of the way of an inquiry and the truth? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, I resent very strongly the comments of the member. Let me tell you that this govenunent will not stand in the way of the truth. This govenunent- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Justice, to complete her response. Mrs.

Vodrey: Madam Speaker, one of the important points is, according to Justice Sopinka, that public inquiries must not be covert criminal investigations. That is the issue. Therefore, this govenunent will be operating according to the plan we have set out. There will be an independent review which will examine the circumstances. There will be an internal review. There will be a criminal investigation with possible charges.

I am also pleased to say that our Justice people have met with the MGEU, and in developing with the MGEU they will be also having what they have called at the moment the Rebuilding Headingley Committee that will be an opportunity for individuals who work within the system to come forward, to speak very frankly about the issues of their concern. We want to get on with it. *

(1420) Landfill Sites-Winnipeg Requirements Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier (Mr. Filmon), and I think it is about time that the Premier starts getting involved in demonstrating some leadership. I want to cite a couple of examples. Today we have the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cumm ings) approving the lic ence for BFI to have a dump. Last week we brought up this question in the Chamber. The city of Winnipeg does not need to have another landfill site or garbage dump or whatever it is that this govenunent wants to call it.

The question to the Premier is, is the Premier prepared to stand up and make a commitment to Winnipeggers and Manit obans as a whole that there will be no additional garbage dump located in the capital region just north of the Perimeter? Winnipeg does not need another dump yard. Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, I think the member is well aware of it, but let me remind him that there were two processes in front of the Clean Environment Commission. The first process was to review the concept of waste management in the area of the capital city.

They recommended that the decision be made on environmental grounds, and it was. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, to cite another specific example-

1564 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 1996 Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Inkster was recognized for a supplementary question. Would you please pose your question. Home Care Program Premier's Involvement Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Yes, Madam Speaker, let me again ask the Premier, is the Premier pre pared to get involved in what appears to be another minist er's inability to resolve an issue, that being the stalemate with reference to the home care workers and the clients and get this particular issue resolved') Again, will the Premier show some leadership? Bon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I will repeat for the member for Inkster, this government is determined to ensure that the clients of home care get the services they require when they require them, as they require them and on a guaranteed basis. We have demo nstrated to us right at this present time that by giving a monopoly bureaucratic solution to the problem, we cannot guarantee that all of those who depend upon home care will get their home care, because decisions can be made to withdraw those services.

We are going to ensure that there will be competition and alternatives and flexibility in the system so those clients of home care cannot be held at risk, cannot be held at ransom because of the irresponsible decisions of others. Mr. Lamoureux: Will the Premier show leadership and say no to a dump yard in the city of Winnipeg and say that there will be a one-year moratorium put on home care services in areas in which this government has demonstrated incompetency'J Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, speaking of incompetency, he should be aware that the dump yard is not in the city of Winnipeg; it is in the Rural Municipality of Rosser. He should be aware of the fact that this has been the subject of Clean Environment Commission hearings, and he wants us to throw aside a credible third-party process that has reconunended a licence be issued- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Lamoureux: On a point of order, the Premier is imputing motive s. He is suggesting that we want him to throw aside CEC recommendations. I request the Premier to read what CEC said.

It said, show some leadership. In fact, I will table the recommendation for the Premier. Read and adhere to it. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Inkster does not have a point of order. * * * Madam Speaker: The honourable First Minister, to quickly complete his response. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the CEC, a credible third-party objectiw review. has recommended that the licence be issued. Under those circumstances, the member opposite is suggesting that that process be thrown aside. That is nonsense. That is irresponsible and that is not the situation we are going to impose ourselves in.

We will abide by the recommendations of the CEC. Headingley Correctional Institution Riot Cleanup Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Yesterday, when asked to respond and deal with the causes of the Headingley riot, the Minister of Justice in her in-your-face policy responded by saying it was more important to put tools into the hands of the inmate population.

I want to ask the Minister of Justice, who cannot even run a prison, who said just last year that anything can be used as a weapon, can she explain to Manitobans and to corrections officers how putting hamm ers, saws and other tools into the hands of Headingley inmates will make corrections staff who were just attacked feel safer? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I do not believe-and I would have to check Hansard-! would be very surprised if those were my comments yesterday However, let me address the issue of the rebuilding.

First of all, to our knowledge, there has never been a requirement for inmates to take

part in a cleanup and a rebuilding where there has been a disturbance across this

May 1, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1565 country. This is the first time. This government is saying that, separate and apart from the criminal procedures which may take place, there must be an accountability to the taxpayers, that these people clean up the place in which they live. However, as the member knows, we have had in already, and the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pallister) has arr anged to have in already, cleaning which will deal with those materials which may in fact be hazardous or be used as weapons, things such as the shards of glass and some of the needles which are there.

What we are looking at is setting up a process whereby inma tes-the member does not want to hear-whereby inmates will begin the cleaning process and the rebuilding process; however, all of that will be done-he has been talking the whole time I have been talking, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), this is not a time for debate. The honourable member requested a response from the honourable Minister of Justice. The honourable Minister of Justice, to quickly complete her response. Mrs. Vodrey: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

With the Rebuilding Headingley Committee, which is a co-operative effort between the MGEU, the union, our corre ctional officers and our government, we will be looking at the best and the safest way in which inmates can participate in the rebuilding of the institution. Public Inquiry Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, just do not give them ashtrays, that is all we ask. My supplementary question is for the same minister.

Can the Minister of Justice explain to Manitobans how, without an open public inquiry process, she intends to obtain all the facts about the riot when employees have been recently fired for speaking up about Headingley conditions? How does she expect all the truth and facts to come out about this case without a public inquiry? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, there are a number of issues which I hope you will give me the opportunity to speak about. First of all, members across the way are speaking about ashtrays.

That is a very serious matter in the matter of domestic violence. It was our government's position when changes were being made to the Criminal Code that significant and additional sentencing should not be limited to only the use of firearms but should also include other materials which are used as weapons. Those are regular household items available and used in matters of domestic violence. Members across the way have always chosen to consider that to be something very funny, but it has never been funny to the woman on the other side. The member also raises issues relating to personnel issues.

If he has any facts at all in which he can suggest there was any dismissal relating to the issues that he has brou ght forward, such as speaking out, I think he should lay it on the table, because those are personnel matters and to my knowledge absolutely have never occurred. *

(1430) Guards-Employment Standards Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, my fmal supplementary question is to the Minister of Labour (Mr. Toews). Will the Minister of Labour explain to the Minister of Justice that her in-your-face, warm, fuzzy, feel-good reform policy forcing corrections officers to do lunch with inmates only added to the prison tension and is a violation of The Employment Standards Act of this province? Will the Minister of Labour explain that to the Minister of Justice, please? Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, the members across the way totally trivialize the work of our corr ectional institutional employees. So let me just take this opportunity to say very clearly from this side of the House-[ interj ection] Madam Speaker: Order, please.

15 66 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 19 96 Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, let me just say very cle arly on behalf of our government and people on this side of the House that we are extremely grateful to the work of the correctional officers, and that their work has been in fact something which we are making every effort to make sure that we have expressed to them our consideration and actually our thanks for all of the work that they have done.

Now, when the member speaks about policies, he seems to be confusing two possibilities The time in which correctional officers spend time actually, not having lunch, not doing lunch as the member says, they are at that time being paid, Madam Speaker. They are paid employees to do their work as correctional officers. However, I said earlier today, there is this opportunity through the Rebuilding Headingle y Committee for all of these is sues to be examined by the people who know them the best, by the people who have the greatest interest in them. We will be looking at all of the results. St.

Boniface College Funding Reduction Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker. the College Universitaire de Saint Boniface lies at the heart of the Franco-Manitobaine community and I know that all members of this House are concerned for its survival. Recent cuts from the federal government, and what are believed to be additional cuts from the province, have put the future of the Ecole technique, the commun1ty college section, in je opardy.

Could the Minister of Education explain to the House why the 50 pe rcent cut to the Ecole technique is so much greater than the reduction the province experienced from the federal Official Languages Program'i Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Spea ker, I thank the member for the question because it gives me a very timely opportunity to indicate to the House that the federal government, after much effort on the part of this provincial government, has agreed finally to assist us with the funding that they had withdrawn .

If I may, Madam Spea ker, in addition to thank ing the many members of my staff who worked vel} hard with the federal officials, I also would like to extend thanks to the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry), who set aside his partisan opportunities to work with the minister and the department to be part of the solution rather than acerbate the problem So I thank him, and I am pleased about the outcome. Ms.

Friesen: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the minister for that and I want to ask the minist er to make a commi tment to the House today and to the Franco Manitobaine community that there will be a short-term solution in place over the next week-and this is the crucial time for enrollments and for program announcements-so that those academic programs and student enrollments can continue in a stable manner'i Mrs.

Mc intosh: Madam Speaker. as I indicated, we now have confim1ation that the federal government has changed its mind. seen the error of its ways, decided that perhaps it was most unwise to not show commitment to French language education in Manitoba and, again, my thanks to the member for St. Boniface. My tha nks. as well. to the people at the St. Boniface College for their patience, assist ance and understanding through this dillicult time I ind icate to the member that the plans that she is talking about are already underway .

Although she has not asked a question recently on this topic, we have continued daily working on this issue to resolve those matters, and I am ve1-y pleased to say that we now have a sol ution that will enable St. Boniface College to no longer be in the ve1-y precarious posit ion in which it existed over the last few weeks . Hugh Goldie Un tendered Contracts Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, yesterday I drew to the House's attention the giving of an $1 8,000 untendered contract to the Premier's campaign manager, Mr. Goldie. I wonder if the Premier could tell the House if Mr.

Goldie is doing any other untendered work for his government or any other departments. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, as was full y explained yesterday by the Deputy Premier (Mr.

May 1, 19 96 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 67 Downey), the fact of the matter is that that contract was awarded by the Civil Service Commission, a body that has been set up under The Civil Service Act to be independent of government, so the allegation is one of the typical smutty ones that is brought out by the member for Crescentwood. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, on a point of order, the statement made by the Premier is clearly unparliamentary.

I would have thought that when we have the Premier of Alberta here, the Premier might have put on his best behaviour and perhaps he might wish to consider-instead of taking this matter under advisement, would you perhaps ask the Premier to withdraw those comments. They are very unparliamentary and I think very unfair. Madam Speaker: I will take the matter under advisement to review the exact context in which the words were stated and I will report back to the House with a ruling. * * * Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, of course my concern is when the member is faced with the facts and knows that his allegation is untrue that he repeats it. That of course is also contravening our rules here in this House. The fact of the matter is, as I understand it, that Mr. Goldie over the past year has had two other contracts, both of which he rec eived as a result of tenders for which he was the best bidder and was selected as such. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, would the Premier confirm then that Mr. Goldie is doing work for the regionalization in the Health department?

Will he give us the amount and the date of that contract, that he has also recently submitted a study on the organization of the Department ofHealth on March 15 ? Will he give us the amount and the date of that contract? Mr. Filmon: Yes, Madam Speaker, and as I said, both of those contracts were received as a result of a bid process for which he was selected as the best proposer and the best bid. Under that selection process, one was- An Honourable Member: This person had inside knowledge. An Honourable Member: That is scumm y. Point of Order Hon.

Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): On a point of order, Madam Speaker, I distinctly heard the member for Thompson from his seat say that Mr. Goldie would have had inside knowledge. That is a totally inappropr iate comment, particularly because Mr. Goldie is not here to defend himself, but apart from that the fact that he can make allegations like that is totally ina ppropriate, and he ought to withdraw that and apologize. Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, I suggested that someone who was the campaign manager for the Premier might have some inside knowledge about what is going on in that government.

That is not only not unparliamentary; it is obvious to anyone who looks at the facts. If that individual is campaign manager to the Premier, does not know what is going on in government and does not have inside knowledge, I would be very surprised. I will not withdraw those comments. In fact, they are not only not unpa rliament ary, they are what anyone looking obje ctively at the situation will come to the same conclusion.

Madam Speaker: On the point of order by the honourable government House leader, I will take the point of order under advisement, and I will peruse Hansard and report back to the House with a ruling. * * * Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I just want to say for the record that Mr. Goldie has absolutely no inside information. When a request for a proposal is put out, it is the same information that is given to everyone who proposes. The members opposite may want to carry on their campaign of smear and innuendo, but it places them right in the gutter where they belong when they make these- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired.

15 68 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 19 96 MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Deputy Prime Minister-Resignation Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Eight days ago, I rose in this House and asked for the resignation of the Deputy Prime Minister of Canada, Sheila Copps. Eight days ago, Madam Speaker, the federal Liberals harmonized the GST -[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am sure that all honourable members would like to hear the comments of the honourable member for Turtle Mountain. Mr.

Tweed: Eight days ago, Madam Speaker, the federal Liberals harmonized the GST with the PST in three Atlantic provinces, and it was reminded to Ms. Copps that she had used the word "abolish'' with regard to the GST, as opposed to harmonize. I was forced to refer to the dictionary for definition to make my point, and there is nothing of abolish in the word ''harmonize ., Today, Madam Speaker, I would like to congratulate Ms. Copps for doing the right thing.

I understand it is her intention to run again in the new election, in the by elec tion, and I suggest that is a good thing for all Canadians, because then she will not be able to sit in the appointed Senate, in which she will draw a wage for the rest of her life. It also brings to my attention that I would like to question where the Manitoba federal MPs stood on this issue, as I perused all forms of media to find out if they had or were willing to voice an opinion, and I found that they were not. Again, I would like to suggest that I congratulate her for doing the right thing.

Thank you, Madam Speaker May Day Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, May Day has a long and glorious history. Originally May 1 was a day of people's festivals celebrating the arrival of spring. At the turn of this century, after several workers were killed by government tactics used while breaking up a strike, workers selected May 1 as a day to honour workers and their cause. Today, workers across the world are marching in solidarity.

Here in Manitoba we are faced with a shameful spectacle of an arrogant government whose callous, unforgivable actions have as their only goal the breaking of home care workers' spirits while giving aid and succour to their close personal friends in We Care and their corporate allies in Great-West Life.

Even Alberta. whose Premier was with us today, listened to the people and dealt with the laundry workers in a fair and humane manner This government should listen to the Premier of Alberta We in the New Democratic Party are proud to recommit our principled support for the home care workers here in Manitoba and stand in solidarity with workers around the world Thank you. *

(1440) RCMP Rescue-E merson Area Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): I want to rise today and congratulate the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and thank the Premier and the mimst ers of our government for taking the time to come out and witness the devastation that has taken place in many of the communities in the R.M. of Montcalm, the R.M of Franklin and, indeed, all the commun ities in the Red River Valley and the devastation that the flood waters have caused there, and also to take time by our government to ensure the recognition of the volunteer work that has been done.

Primarily, I want to rise today and recognize the bravCI}· and the quick thinking of two people in the case of where Mrs. Charlie Sawatsky, Margaret Sawatsky, walked along a railway bridge and fell into the Red River. It was the quick thinking of the wife of the mayor of the tmm of Emerson. Daphne Arseny, who heard the screams, ran to the hospital and phoned the ambulance and the fire department and the RCMP, and that quick thought brought the RCMP to the river fast enough that the sergeant, John Fleming, could rescue, dive into the water, and while he was swimming to Mrs. Sawatsky's aid, Mrs.

Sawatsky slipped under the water He dove beneath the water, beneath the logs and retrieved Mrs. Sawatsky and brought her back to safety.

May 1, 19 96 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 156 9 It is this kind of action, this kind of volunteerism and this kind of involvement that is typical of the people in the Red River Valley in its current state of emergency. Theref ore, the constituents of Emerson thank the government for recognizing the dilemma that we are in, and we thank the RCMP and the wif e of the mayor of Emerson for the quickness of thought and putting his own life in danger, Sergeant John Fleming, for his actions. Lyme Disease Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): I would like to thank you, Madam Speaker, for allowing distribution of this sheet on Lyme disease in the House to all mem bers. Lyme disease, as many members know, is a pernicious disease caused by a bacterium that is carried by a tick that has made its way into Canada. For many years the government was reluctant to recognize that this was a very real disease and is very, very debilitating and neurologically damaging to the people who contract it and do not have it caught in the early stages.

This is the season of the year that we have to begin to be concerned about this particular disease, and I want to commend the Lyme Borreliosis group for its work in public education and its attempts to get the government to be more proactive in warning Manitobans about this disease. For every life that is ruined by chronic Lyme Borreliosis, we can talk about hundreds of thousands of dollars lost to our economy and an equally large sum in medical treatment being spent unnecessarily because the disease was not caught at an early stage.

Members of this group were told, unfortunately, just this week that nothing could be done by the government to bring this issue to the attention of the public this year because of the home care strike. We do not accept that ever ything that is important in Manitoba has to go on hold because the government is inept at handling a forced privatization of their own choosing. I commend the work of this group to all members of the House. I hope all members will put this pamphlet in their constituency offices.

I hope the government will see the error of their ways and immediately produce an attractive and a very readable pamphlet following the good work of this committee which, by the way, has been in concert with Dr. John Guilfoyle and his office. All this information has been approved by Dr. Guilfoyle. The thing that is missing is the government will not put a very few hundred dollars together to print a brochure making this widely available. Thank you. Home Care Services Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Madam Speaker, the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) just stated that privatizing home care is intended to introduce an alternative system of economic competition; yet the fact that there is only one or few private entrepreneurs means that there in fact will be no competition. There will be economic oligopoly and, at most, private monopoly replacing public monopoly. When the seniors from Minnesota came here to buy at half the cost price some medical prescription drugs, they said that they spend an average of$500 for prescription drugs and only 12 percent, or about $60, is covered by their insurance compa nies.

Then they said: I get the feeling that people who want to make money out of the private system are pushing for it. When anyone places monetary private interest above public interest in preserving the health of its citizens, the government loses its legitimate right to rule. When publicly elected people allow themselves to be used by profit-seeking supporters to advance their private interests above the welfare of the people, particularly the welfare of the sick and the elderly, such acts become detestable and morally reprehensible.

Placing love of money above concern for people is morally wrong, for the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil from which some have strayed from the faith for their greediness and pierced themselves through with many sorrows, for those who decide to be rich fall into the temptation and a snare and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and in perdition.

We in the official opposition, in solidarity with the home care workers, in deep concern with the elderly and the sick, are trying to keep home care a public enterprise because the health of the people, next to life, is an utmo st matter of public interest.

157 0 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 19 96 ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I have two announcements with respect to House business. Firstly, Tuesday, May 14 , will be Opposition Day. Under our new rules, there will be three Opposition Days during any given session, and notice has been given of the motion by the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). It is contained in the Order Paper, and that will be the motion that is debated during Opposition Day on Tuesday, May 14.

On Friday, May 10 , between 9:30 a.m. and 12 noon, the Commit tee on Public Accounts will meet in Room 254 in order to give continuing consideration to the matters before it. I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty Motion agreed to, and the House resohed itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr.

Sveinson) in the Chair for the Department of Education and Training; and the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Health. * (1 450 ) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) EDUCATION AND TRAINING Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson ): Order, pl ease. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training. When the committee last sat it had been considering item 2.( a)(

l) on page 35. Shall the item pass? Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolscley): Mr. Chair, I think we are using this line to ask a number of questions about New Directions, so there are things in here that maybe could be asked in other areas, but I ju st want to give the mini ster some notice of what we are intending. I v.anted to ask the minister about the exams of Grade 12 that took place during the winter. I wondered what documents the minister had prepared that evaluated those exams. It was, as the minister is aware, a process which did not go smoothly in many areas.

There was a winter snowstorm, there was difficulty, which meant that a number of school divisions, I think it was about 13 school divisions, did not have the opportunity to write the test on the days that everyone else had written the test, and there were concerns from those school divisions about how their exams would be marked. I think at one point they were told that they would be marked at the end of the line. and I think they would like to know whether in fact that happened They were also concerned about whether their marks would count in the sense of the overall assessment of provincial results.

So perhaps we could start with that. The other areas. I think. that the minister is aware that things did not go smoothly are, of course, the distribution of mark booklets or \\Titing booklets which did not necessarily have all the pages, perhaps, that they should have had and which led to some last min ute problems for some school divisions. I think there were also some difficulties that the minister encountered in the early months in preparation for that exam with the reluctance of some school divisions to allow their teachers to become part of the marking system.

This was particularly true, I believe . for schools which had relatively small departments of English and where the removal of one or more English teachers meant that there were difficulties for other parts of the high school, or even if it was a K to I 2 school, for other parts of the school. I am wondering if. as a result of those matters of process, the administration of the exam, the mini ster had prepared a report that would be of some comfort to people who arc facing the exam in the next few weeks that these difficulties had been overcome. Was there an evaluation done? * (150 0) Hon.

Linda Mcint osh (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Chairman, these are very detailed questions, and I would be most pl eased to answer them.

May 1, 19 96 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 71 I think, however, we are in a different section. It should be under Asses sment and Evaluation, which is 16 .2( c). As I say, I am happy to go through the detail, but we are in School Programs right now. So if you want to move to that section, we can, but right now the staff we have here are for the progra ms. Did you wish to proceed on this one now? Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, since maybe I put that question now, if the minister wanted to answer that one now, and we will save the rest of the asses sment ones for 16 .2 (c). Mrs. Mcintosh: Okay. Mr.

Chairman, the exam development process involves the use of classroom teachers, a significant pilot process. The ELA S4 exam was piloted in seven or eig ht schools, urban, rural, independent, and it was marked using the same process, and based upon this piloting, improvements were made both to the test instrument and to the marking process. The weather was indeed a problem. However, divisions are in formed about a process to be followed, and we think, as we went through the experience, that the benefits that were accrued far outweig hed any start-up problems that might have occurred.

As the member knows, we have had exams for many years in the province, not language arts, but annu ally we have been having exams, and this is the first that we have encountered the unusually severe circumstances of weather that occurred. So we have developed a protocol. There was a protocol in place but not as efficient as the protocol that has been developed since we experienced that freak weather conditioning that came about with this year's winter conditions.

We are absolutely delighted and most grateful, deli ghted with and grateful to the teachers who did the marking for the English language arts exams, and we have received rave reviews from them indicating almost unanim ously, with the exception of perhap s one teacher who felt the exams were not difficult enough, but rave reviews from the rest saying it was without a doubt the single most sig nificant professional development experience they have ever been through. (Mr.

Peter Dyck, Actin g Chairperson, in the Chair) We were bowled over by their enthusiasm at the end of the marking process because we had, as the member correctly pointed out, in the beginning some difficulty attracting people to mark There were several reasons for it. One was the reason the member mentioned, that some divisions were concerned about having substitutes in for the mar king period.

The other reason was a resi stance on the part of some divisions and some staff members to the concept of asses sment and evaluation where people on principle say we do not believe in testing children, and, ther efore, we do not wish to be part of the marking process. When the mark ing process began and the teachers started working together on the evaluation and the asses sment, they indicated they had never had a PD experience like it. As I say, that was far ranging. It was not an is olated reaction. It was the domina ting reaction, and it was spelled out to us in great detail. So that is a pleasing experie nce.

I think because of that you will see those same teachers wanting to come back and probably others inspired to want to participate as well. There were about 16 school divisions in the southern part of the province in January that either had to close or cancel school buses because of the extremely unusual weather conditions, and so we found that about 15 perce nt of the students were not able to complete their examination on that scheduled date of January 19 .

Divisions where students were unable to write due to weather conditions were asked to have students write during the week of January 22 and send their papers in for central mar king. These papers were clearly identified as having been admi nistered late, and marks on these pape rs were not included as part of the provincial statistics since there was no way of knowing whether results were affected by the delay in writing. The local policy then applied in determining how those marks were to be used and reported.

It was important that the mar king be done and the papers be returned, but the local policy then kicked in and determined how they were to be used. Affected schools were given the option of determining whether and how to count these marks since the affected schools are in the best position to judge whether or not confidentiality of the exam had been maintained. No student was likely to be adversely affected if the school decided not to count the results of the provincial exam since scores in provincially administered exams tend to be sli ghtly lower than school awarded mar ks.

Other provinces have policies that if the weather affects the writing of an exam, then the school mark will apply 10 0 percent for those students affected. In Alberta they use that method. In one case only did they use a backup

157 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 19 96 exam, and that was done here when a blizzard shut do\\n most of the province. But the time required to print and distribute a backup exam in that instance resulted in a delay of almost two weeks in the writing of the exam. The current department policy is that students who are unable to write a provincial exam due to inclement weather are to have their marks awarded by the school according to local policy. Although the provincial English language arts exam was marked centrally, this principle was maintained for the January 19 , 19 96, English language arts exam.

The standard proce:dures for communicating this policy have been to inform schools or divisions when they have made enquiries. All schools that were affected by the inclement weather on January 19 were notified no later than January 18 of departmental policy regarding school closures during the administration of the exam because at that date it became clear that the weather was behaving in an extraordinarily unusual way.

A departure was made from the departmental policy in that the exams \n itten late were marked by the department, and so we are currently preparing a policy and procedures manual on this issue for the benefit of school divisions. Regarding the booklets, a hundred booklets out of 7,500 had some printing difficulty. This was a printer error that occurred under conditions that closely monitor for accuracy. Those hundred booklets were pulled out of the 7,500, and divisions were informed the day before the exam to check the documents to minimize disruption during the testing situation.

Divisions were extremely co operative during this period, and they did have additional copies at their schools so they were able to carry on. But we do appreciate the assist ance that they provided in that particular instance. * (1510 ) The member also raised the issue of markers' availability. Initially there were difficulties identif):ing markers; I think I indicated that.

In anticipation of having too few, we made a statement that if there were too few, on a priority choice basis we would mark the divisions' papers first who had provided markers, since those divisions felt if they provided markers it would be unfair for them to be the last ones marked, especially in small schools. As it turned out. of course, we did have sufficient markers, and we were extremely pleased with their work with the marking of the exams. We were not in any instance indicating that we would be saying that schools would not be marked.

All schools would be marked, but thro\\n into the bin offrrst marked would have been those whose teachers were there. As it turned out, as I say, of course, that was not necessary. Some boards actually exceeded their target and provided more numbers than we had asked them for, and we appreciated that as well. The target number of markers from each division was only a guideline, like, we were not saying you must send six. We would say. could you send five or six markers from your division? I must indicate that the quality of people who did the marking was most impressive indeed.

The member asked if we did an evaluation of the whole process, and indeed we did. That is part of our belief in assessing and testing and examining is to believe in testing and examining our mm procedures. As well, a survey form has been sent out to all divisions for teachers and administrators to give us feedback and su ggestions on the process so that we can spot diagnostically any areas that we could improve for the next go round, our goal being to continue moving toward excellence in all that we do. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair.

I wanted to ask some questions about overall policies in New Directions, some of the concerns that have been brought to me. So these are not on the specific curriculum, but they are on the overall directions ofNew Directions.

One of the concerns that has been expressed to me is the role to be played by the Grade 9, and some people \\ill suggest it is also Grade 10 as well, but the Grade 9, Grade 10 mathematics. that this in a sense will become the great sorter, that this is the one where many students "ill have difficulties, and that the flexibility that had been there in the old curri culum for different varieties of mathematics. consumer mathematics, business mathematics, basic accounting, those kinds of things, is not available until students have passed I think it is the Grade 1 0 math exam.

People are bringing this to my attention as becoming the major sorter, not an English exam, not a communications exam but one particular mathematics exam. and I am interested if these concerns have been brought to the minister, where the minister believes this Grade 9 and Grade 10 mathematics fits in

May 1, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 157 3 the overall context ofNew Directions and of the overall goals and skills that the minister has written about, has laid out as her goals for Manitoba students. Is this, in fact, going to be the big sorter and the big streamer, in a sense, and a stumbling block for many, many children? Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Chairman, I am not quite certain what the member is referring to. We do not have a sorting process.

I know there has been a sorting process in the system to date where students have been pi geonholed and slotted into different categories, but our goal is not to perpetuate that. At the Grade 9 level, students will ultimately be writing mathematics, language arts, science and social studies, and they will be continuin g in Grade 10 or the next year. In Grades 11 and 12, they have a choice of continuing or to start to specialize in various areas, but coming out of Grade 9 they still have choices that they can make, just as they do coming out of Grade 9 now in terms of the subjects they would like to take.

So I am not quite sure what she means by the sorting process, and I am just having a little difficulty with where she is leading. The exams that are taken will count for 3 5 percent, at Grade 9, of their final mark, which should indicate that the bulk of their mark will still be at the school level. Senior 2 is the year when specific courses for particular purposes in math, science, social studies and LA will be availa ble.

This is, in fact, what schools and parents have asked for, so students can begin to proceed incrementally towards areas of specialty. * (1 520) Math 20-S, which focuses on the theoretical mathematics complements Applied Math 20-S, which is also being pi loted during the '95-96 school year. Both courses are based on the western framework for 1 0 to 12 mathematics.

Math 20-S has an increased emphasis on problem solving which is, as ofyesterday, somethin g that people know that we need to do some more work on, and I am pleased that we had already started to work in that direction to make problem solving an integral part of education. But that particular course had an increased emphasis on problem solving, and a corresponding decrease in the more traditional, rote, repetitive exercises that charact erize its predecessor, which was Math 20-G. This move marks a big change in . the mathematics curriculum.

The mathematics K to 12 steering committee at its December 11 , '95, meeting discussed the issue of Senior 2 math courses. They affirmed the department's approach to senior year courses. The revised Senior 1 mathematics emphasizes the cumulative nature of mathematics and assumes that students will continue to apply the mathematics from unit to unit and year to year. These changed emphases appear to be worldwide phenomena brought on by the use of technology in all facets of society. It seems to be pointless to emphasize repetitive techniques in school mathematics under those circ umstance s.

We need a better new curricula with a changed focus with outcomes for students, rather than objectives for teachers, and increased expectations for all students with a major emphasis on problem solving, as I said earlier, involving the application of mathematical knowledge, skills, and attitudes. Increased emphasis on the cumulative use and retention of mathematical skills and concepts will provide students with increased mathematical flexibility in their lives.

The coordination with western partners will allow for enha ncements from other jurisdictions, and you will see that mirrored in resources which correlate with the western framework. So we need curricula that is planned to include future co-ordination with teachin g strategies and assessm ent strategies. It is not a sorting process.

It is attempting to provide students with the most relevant, up-to-date curricula properly assessed, so that we will know and they will know whether or not they have been able to acquire the prereq uisite skills and knowledge to move on to the next level of learning, that next level to be determined by them. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I think the concern that I have been hearing is that the variety of mathemati cs that has been previously available, accounting math, consumer math, those kinds of thin gs, are no longer available at the Grades 9 and 10 level. They are avai lable at the Grades 11 and 12 level.

That flexibili ty is there for students who by then are opting for different kinds ofprograms. The concerns that I have heard from teachers are that the barrier, the sorting mechan ism, that is what I mean by

157 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 19 96 the sorting mechanism, is going to be the Grade 9 and perhaps the Grade 10 mathematics exam, that this is a relatively difficult level, one that they are not convinced that students can achieve in the numbers, the 10 0 percent that we would want students to achieve, that is all students able to pass this exam, because in the past they have been able to have alternatives in mathematics. Now, at that level, they do not.

So I think that is what teachers are concerned about, that this will become a means of sorting out children who are able to go on to Grades 11 and 12, and those who will find that as a great block. So I am looking for some reflections from the minister on what is intended by that change, of putting the variety of mathematics programs at the 11 and 12 , and what implic ations this has for the whole system. So it is the whole system of New Directions that I am looking at.

Is the Grade 9, Grade 10 mathematics unintentionally, and I think it would be unintentional, is it in danger of becoming a barrier for many students and keeping them away from the more practical mathematics which they would benefit from and have benefited from in the past? Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Chairman, I just want to just clarifY a statement the member, the teacher, made several times in her comments just so that people do not get the wron g impression when they read Hansard.

The member said, teachers are worried about this, teachers are upset about this, teachers are concerned and teachers are not happy, and she has omitted very important words which are "some" teachers or a "few·· teachers. I think those words are very important to note as omissions because, for starters, all of these things that she is talking about-teachers being concerned-were writ ten and developed by teachers.

Obviously, if the implication that she inadvertently left on the record was by saying teachers are concerned that she meant all teachers, then that flies in the face of the fact that the teachers themselves developed, wrote and prepared all of this material that the member says some, few, teachers are concerned about. I say some, few, because I have talked to many, many teachers and there are some, few, who are concerned. They are basically people who do not want any changes in the system, want the system to stay as it is. but more often than not, the teachers I talk to like this direction.

Any criticisms that I have heard about moving in this direction have more to do with time lines, have more to do with ensuring that adequate prof essional development, things like that, are in place. The thrust itself has only been criticized, from people that I have talked to, by a few. I would like to ask as well, because I am not quite sure why the member feels this is a barrier-she made ref erence to a barrier several times- I am not clear, nor are my staff members here. as to why having this Grade 9 mathematics with a new, improved, more relevant curricula would be a barrier to something.

The results are used to provide inf ormation to parents on progress according to a provincial standard as indicated by the majority of parents as something they desire. The member needs to know at Grade 9, which is Senior 1, now there is one math and there will be one math in the future . There will be three choices in math at Senior 2 and four choices of math in each at Senior 3 and Senior 4.

That is. tomorrow. in math, in terms of the number of courses. the same number of courses tomorrow as there is today and was yesterday. 1 am not quite sure why she feels there is a barrier particularly when, in terms of the number of math courses available, there is no change in the number. For 19 96-97. which is this year, I will indicate to the member the options, and they will continue into the future and will be expanded.

For example, consumer math at Senior 4, plus complemen tary and/or supplementary courses in computer applications and technology, computer science. software applications, seminars on business, mathematics. calculus and so on. That is at Senior 4, but at Senior l. which is Grade 9, you will have the one mathematics course in the future as we did in the past. Senior 2. which is Grade 10 , you will be able to choose from Mathematics 20, General Mathematics 20-S, Applied Mathematics 20-S and Consumer Mathematics 2 0- S. So you can choose one of those in Grade I 0 or Senior 2.

In Grade 11 or Senior 3, they can choose one of Mathematics 30 -G. Mathematics 30-S, Applied Mathematics 30 -S and Accounting Principles 30 -S. In Senior 4, as I indicated before, some of the options, but also compulsory, one of Mathematics 40-G, Mathematics 40-S or Accounting Systems 40-S.

May 1, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 75 So there is a wide variety of courses, and the member indicated, or I think she indicated earlier, that they would not have any ability to choose options until Grade 11 and 12 or Senior 3 and Senior 4. But when I look at Senior 2 and see all of the options available in mathematics, I think maybe she must have misspoke herself and meant to say that there are-you will see a wide variety of options occur ring until Grade 10 and that Grade 9 will not see any difference in the number of options in the future than they currently do or that they did in the past.

So I think she maybe meant to say Grade 10 instead of Grade 11 , because that is where the options begin and the variety of courses begin. * (1530 ) Ms. Friesen: The minister says there is one course now at Grade 9, and there was always only one course available at Grade 9. That is what I understand her to say. Has that Grade 9 course changed? How has it changed? Just in general ways, because what I am trying to do is to understand the concerns that have been brought to me. Mrs. Mcin tosh: The mathematics course that is being taught this year has been taught for the last three years in Manitoba.

This year it was fully implemented, having been piloted for the previous two years. So it has been three years of a full year of teaching to check for any indications of concerns. (Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair) I am not sure where the member is getting her information because the general consensus is that we pil oted it for one year; we piloted it for a second year; we were given the blessing and the go ahead from all of those piloting, with perhaps one or two exceptions of people who were resi stant to the whole concept of moving to more relevant curricula.

But the go-ahead was given from the field after two years of piloting and now one year of experience, and the general feedback we get from the majority of divisions-and there will always be one or two exceptions floating around from people who do not like the new blueprint, who pref er the status quo but by and large the vast majority opinion is, we have approved the pilot after two years because we do think that it is better for our students than the old way.

The changes from the previous Manitoba curriculum of 19 79, which is what was in place until three years ago, would be considered major, primarily because the department has not modified its mathematics curriculum for over 15 years and changes are in the philosophy content and the expectation of studen ts . We are beginning to work now, as of this year, with a greatly increased emphasis on problem solving which implies a decrease in rote, repetitive, memorized exer cises which dominated the earlier curricula and all indicators are that rote, repetitive exercises are not relevant for today's world.

As I indicated earlier, the revised Senior 1 mathematics emphasizes the cumulative nature of mathematics and assumes that students will continue to apply the mathematics from unit to unit and year to year. I would be very interested in knowing from the member what her source was to indicate that this mathematics was not working, because it is contrary to what we are hearing. If she has a source that she could identifY, that would be appreciated. As I say, our indicators are that this was a successful pilot, and somewhere she must have received information contrary to that.

It would help us if we knew the source, because then we could go to that source and assist those one or two people, whoever they might be, with the provision of inf ormation and philosophy that might help them better understand what is happening and why. It concerns me if those people are in the system and have not been given any opportunity to be provided with information as to why we are doing this. As I say, aside from one or two places where they are resi stant to the whole philosophy of change, the majority of people have felt this was not only necessary but very long overdue. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Chair, the concerns that were brought to me dealt with the pl ace of mathematics in the whole curriculum and not dealing specifically with the content or the transition in content. I think in the broader context that the options that the minister says are there in Grade 10 are not necessarily there in all school s. So I wondered if the minister had a sense of how large a school usually is before those kinds of options will be commonly available. I think some of the discussion I heard might in fact be related to that, to the size of school and the provision of options.

Secondly, I think it also comes in the context of those people who are dealing with many students with special

157 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 19 96 needs and that concern that I raised earlier with the min ister of significantly cognitively disabled which the minister anticipates will be a very small proportion overall in the province so, obviously, more in some areas than in others and people's concern that the single Grade 9 examination, which must now be passed by the vast majority of students with very detailed criteria for significantly cognitive disabled, that this may become a barrier that the government may not have intended.

So that is the context of it, the role and place of this particular subject. Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Chairman, I think the member is describing a situation that is eternal in education, at least it has been since education began trying to offer a wide variety of opportunities for people.

The question of options that are available, and options that are: available at any particular school, is a question that has been around for many, many years, because, as the member knows, during the term that her government was in office, there were many more options available than many schools could take advantage of That situation continues right across the world. There are options available provincially that are not available in every school because of the size of the school or the makeup of the students.

This government has put a lot of effort into the deve lopment of technologies and the establishment of MERLIN to try to assist small schools with distance education, with mediated teaching, with a variety of things that will help small schools. We have small schools grants that we provide, and that is, as I indicated, why we are examining distance and delivery capabilities. Having said that, it would be our desire, if we could, that every school could offer every subject to eve1y student, and we also would like to see students have courses that are most applicable to their own needs.

Students enrolled in the M, I and E designated courses would have highly individualized programs and would not be participating in provincial standards tests. So, you know, we do have one group of students that-whether the member feels that exams are a barrier or a hindrance or whatever else that the opposition may feel about exams , there are some students who would not have either the barrier, as the member calls it, or the opportunity, as we would call it. Although they certainly can write the exams if they wish, students in those categories are not obliged to write them.

We know that we cannot always in schools of certain sizes provide the full and total range of options, but we do know. for example, that we have one student in a high school in Miami, Manitoba, which is a very small town, that is taking calculus. The only student in the school to take calculus from very good instruction, and so on, because it is being taken through Distance Education, something that we implemented for students and which has great potential for the future.

As I say, that is in its infancy, so it will take time to build and is not available universally at this time. * (1 540 ) When we can1e into office we began the changes in the math curriculum that the member is concerned about. We began those changes starting with kindergarten to Grade 4, then Grades 5 to 8. and now Senior L Senior 2 and Senior 3 and Senior 4. So we have been working on them for many years. They did not just sort of pop into existence overnight. I do not know if that provides some of the detail the member was looking for, but, if it does not, I will wait for additional questioning. Ms.

Friesen: My question dealt with the number of schools which were able to offer more than one mathematics course in Grade 10 . I wondered what the level of numbers in a school generally would be before that variety of options that the minister talked about would be available. Mrs. Mcintos h: Our procedures on this have not changed YCry much from the days when the member's party governed this province. That information is not kept on file. but, as I said, we do assist small schools with our funding formula, and there are correspondence courses available.

That information historically has not been kept on file and is not at this time either. Ms. Friesen: I wanted to ask about some general issues with New Di rections, and one of the ones that concerns me is the overall direction of policy. The Roblin commiss ion, for example, talked about cross-disciplinary, interdisciplinary, encouraged universities to move beyond the disciplines. New Directions, it seems to me, takes a very strong subject orientation. I wondered if the minister would like to comment on how she would like to see those linking. What are the areas of New Directions

May 1, 19 96 LEGISLA TIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 15 77 where cr oss-discipli nary, interdi scipl inary programs will become part of students' learning? Mrs. Mcintosh: I am confused a bit by the apparent contradiction in terms of policy desires between the member for Wolseley and the mem ber for Radisson. Maybe I am mis interp reting. It seems to me that yesterday the member from Radisson was extremely irate and upset that we were doing an interd iscipl inary linkage with health and physical education.

That is an example of this interd iscipli nary thru st, but I am hearing in the member's question, here, phrased as if it is something that is to be desired, but in yesterday's I was very definitely given the message that this is a big no-no, so I do not know, she may wish to clarifY where she is coming from on it, but the member is overlooking the essence of New Directions which we have discussed publicly enormously, foundation skills in a holistic sense.

We have talked about problem solving being something that needs to permeate all elements of education, and the Foundation for Excellence, for example, indicates that foundation skills and other clements will be integrated in curriculum frameworks documents to ensure rigorous and inclusive curriculum for all students, and we have listed them, literacy and communication, human relations, resource-based learning, and so on, problem solving. Manitoba is breaking new ground in preparing inclusive curriculum frameworks, and I just want to pause and give a little example here because I think it is very telling.

I was out visiting a school on one of my regular school visits and was reading to a class of children . I was reading a story called The Fourth Little Pig. These were Grade 3 students, and the story of the fourth little pig was about the three little pigs that had been chased by the wolf, in a brick house, hiding in the house afraid to come out because the wolf was going to get them if they went out. The fourth little pig appeared at the door, and she was their big sist er, and the little pigs opened the door and pulled her into the house, and she said, why are you hiding in the house?

And they said, we are afraid to go out because the big, bad wolf will get us, and the fourth little pig said, do not be sill y, you cannot hide in a brick house all your life. Come out and face the world. There is no big, bad wolf out there . * (1 550 ) The little pigs then began to argue with her, and as I was reading the story, the reaction of the children was very, very inte rest ing. I said to the children, what do you think is going to happen next, and one to the students said, I do not think that is a fourth little pig.

I think that is the big, bad wolf in disg uise coming to try and trick the pigs because he could not get them when he tried to blow the house down. Anyhow, we turned the page. The fourth little pig indicated that the three little pigs should come outside, and, if they did not come outside, she would huff and puff and blow their house down. The students then said, I think that is the big, bad wolf in dis guise because that individual is using the same language the big, bad wolf used to use. That individual is saying huff and puff and blow your house down.

That is what the big, bad wolf said, so it must be the big bad wolf in disguise. Another child said, but the big, bag wolf was not able to huff and puff and blow the house down before, so why would he be saying he would try it again now because he already tried and it did not work. Another student said, well, maybe it is easier to blow the house down from inside rather than outside. Maybe the way air moves around inside a house makes it easie r to blow down from the inside out than from the outside in.

Another student then said, well, maybe it is the wolf in disguise, and under the dress he has got one of those things that you use for fireplaces, those bellows things that will give extra air and help add to blow the walls down. They went on in this vein, and I was absolutely fascinated as they proposed theory after theory after theory as to what they thought would happen next based upon in formation they had been given prior to their dialogue. They then criticized each other's theori es, shot them do\\'11 with no concern or care about hurt egos or feelings.

They were analyz ing a problem, looking for errors in suppositions, adding and building on each other's theories and essentially doing an analysis of the story and projected outcomes. It turned out in the end that it was the fourth little pig, and it was their sister, and she was there to get them out into the world. The final comment made by one of the girl students in the class was-one of the students in the class said I believe that this is the big sister, and I believe that she will be able to blow the house down, because she is a girl pig and girls are bigg er and smarter. So I

157 8 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 19 96 thought that was kind of an-but I said to the teacher afterwa rds, you know, I am really impressed with your students. They have obviously been taught how to think. They have obviously been taught how to explore ideas and concepts. They are so self-confident in their exploration of ideas. The teacher said to me, well, that is your emphasis on problem solving. We have been working on problem solving in every subject area, like you have told us to do.

In the beginning it was a lot of work, and we wondered if it would be successful but, Madam Minis ter, you see the results before your very eyes, problem solving integrated into literacy and literature. That is what we are talking about when we say things have to per meate. That is a real live example that I participated in myself I could give you more details on that, because it was interesting then to go through and see how problem solving had emiched the child ren 's academic achievement in all are as.

Also we have developed an effective instructional model that is interdi sciplinary in nature, supports the integration of multimedia technology throughout provincial curricula and facilitates systemic self sustaining implementation. We can see in our results of having technology permeate, of having technology permeate every area. The thematic multimedia-based teaching units are being developed and are de,.-eloped in each of the four phases of the pro ject. We see these units, they are inter discipl inary in nature, and they focus on curriculum outcomes at particular middle years grade levels.

The phases of the pro ject are aligned with the '95- 96, '96-97, '97-98, '98-99 fiscal years . Multimedia computer hardware , sofuvar·e seed is provided in representative middle years pilot schools throughout the pro vinc through distribution of grants, 70 percent government funded. Grants have a cap; they will not exceed more than $1 4,000 per school, and 20 schools have been selected in each of the four fiscal years . These I do believe will do our purpose, which is to develop an effective instructit!H<il model that is interdi sciplinary in nature as far as multimedia technology is concerned.

That is just one area. I have talked about so many others . Through the department we support sub ject area integration at the classroom level. Currently such supp ort is evidenced via our work with schools on pro je cts such as inter discipl inary multiyears multimedia pro ject and curr1cular connections and the thinking framework Time allotments are guidelines here, and that permits subject integration if that is the desire of a school. We want to help schools and teachers be clear about the subject options. I am being indicated that my time is up. so I will stop there. Ms.

Friesen: What I was asking about, and what I was looking for was some connection between New Di rections and the subject emphasis that is there in the examinations and the kinds of goals that I think Roblin was moving towards for universities and colleges and, that is, trying to break dmm some of the old disciplines, trying to integrate a cross curriculum.

Yet, it seems to me that as we look at the high school curriculum under New Directions that there is still a great emphasi s-and in this case the emphasis coming through the government waiting of examination results, an emphasis that schools will reflect upon-that the emphasis is upon subjects and individual disciplines. Now the minister in her response talked about subject area integration and gave, I believe as an example of that, the inter discipl inary multimedia curriculum pro ject. My understanding is that is primarily in the middle years .

What I am trying to get at is what balance there is or what new directions is the government looking at in interdi sciplinary kinds of education, the kind of thing that Roblin-and I understand that he takes it from Ernest Boyer -the kind of education that he is looking at in the future. I am wondering if there is a contradiction here and what the goverrunent is doing in its overall K to graduation Are there parallels that we should be looking at? I am looking for some evidence of the depart ment's overall thinking on this. * (1 600) Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr.

Chair man, I am thinking the member and I arc maybe reading Roblin different ly in that I did not see Roblin saying you should not teach subject content. You have to have subject content. I also did not see Roblin advocating blending of disciplines. What I interpreted Roblin as doing was advocating the blending and sharing of administration, breaking dmm barriers to mobility, transfer ability. I do not think he was saying, for example, that the content of the math course

May 1, 19 96 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 157 9 should not be the content of the math course. In math, you are teaching subject area content that is mathemati cal in nature. What we are talking about when we say foundation skills will be integrated into all curri cula and that these will be reflected in standard tests might be best described this way. The math subject has a content. It is mathemati cs that is the content. I do not think Roblin disag rees with that. I do not think anybody disagrees with that.

But when the students in their math do a problem that requires a written answer, the foundation skills of good communication will be expected to apply. Curricular integration is an instructional approach-and I underscore the words "instructional approach" -that this government supports. At the end of the day, however, we have got to ensure that the students achieve the subject area outcomes. They have to know computation; they have to know problem solving, and they have to know when they are writing a history essay or a science essay that they need to be able to communicate.

They not only need to be able to communicate, but they need to be able to communicate in a wide variety of ar eas : techn ology, verbal communications, "Titten communications, all aspects of communications, human relati ons, technology and problem solving must permeate the curricula in all subject areas, our move to a curriculum with an applied focus. Students will have the opportunity to apply learning in a multidi scip linary way. It used to be that in some schools, and it still is in some schools, that people did not worry about whether skills were emphasized in each area.

It did not matter if a child, in delivering an answer verb ally, did not deliver that answer verbally well except in language arts clas s. We are now saying it matters that that child delivers that answer verbally well in all his or her classes. That is an inter discipli nary approach, and I do not think that Roblin had any difficulty with that type of approach, and I do not think he was meaning what I hear the member indicating she interp rets him as meaning. Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): First of all, I think I am on the right line, Special Education Review.

I have had letters about the Special Education Review. When will it happen? Can we expect it before September? Will it be during the summ er months? Will it be in the fall? When are we looking at the Special Education Review? Mrs. Mcintosh: The answer is soon. I say that with all the desire that I have to indicate I wish I could give him a speci fic date. We have been talking and working towards a special needs re view for about 18 months now.

I think we probably would even have maybe started it a bit sooner except that we had the field indicating to us that they were working on the changes we have got going now, and there are a lot of them that want to participate in this review. While we have been preparing for it, we have been sort of iden tifYing issues and concerns and trends so that when we do begin the review, which I hope we will be ann ouncing soon, like maybe even before this sess ion is over, we will have some well -thought-out terms of reference as to what needs to be examined.

We started seriously looking at an implementation date in January of this year, January of '96, which was when we started talking about, we must do this as quickly as we can because we have seen the system growing in its accep tance of students in the schools who in the past were not normally there. At the same time, we have seen the system indicating that as they accept these students, they have concerns and needs that have to be addre ssed for them to properly fulfill their tasks.

I think actually the schools and school boards have done an amazingly good job as society has moved away from institutional lifestyles to community integration, but I think we do need to have some terms of reference, some param eters, some goals, some guidelines, some direction that can be provided to schools and school divisions as they adjust to having a student population that includes a handicapped child, a gifted child, a child with unique learning problems, behavioural dis orders, a wide variety of students who in the past were not always there or, if they were there, were not there in the numb ers that they are today.

Mr. Kowalski: I am wondering if the minister could help me find some inf ormation I am looking for in regard to special needs students. Places like St. Amant and si milar institutio ns, when integration of special needs students in the public school system, I believe they saw a drop in the need for their facilities and saw a drop in population. I have heard comments that as of late they are seeing increases in their residents. Although I do not have any

15 80 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 1, 19 96 statistics, only just personal accounts, people indicate that possibly one of the reasons is that because either the resources were not in their particula r division or overall in the system that what we are going to is going backwards from integration and students with special needs are going back into those instit utional care sit uations. Has the department looked at this? Has it looked at the popu lation at pl aces like St.

Amant and similar instit utions about students that have integrated and then because their needs were not being met ha' e left the public school system to go back into institutional care? The cost, if you look over all, it is not just the Education department, but the overall government costs, whether it is from Health or whatever, sometimes it is more expensive for those students to be in those institutio ns . Do you have any information about those sit uations? * (1610 ) Mrs. Mci ntosh: Mr. Chairman, St.

Amant is actually decreasing in the enrollment of school-age children. but it does have people there who came in as children who are now in their early 20s. They are into adulthood now. That number is larger. What you are seeing is a shift in the age make-up at St. Amant. Where you would have, in the past, a larger number of younger chil dren than older, that has now flipped. There are people who prefer the St. Amant-type setting to a community school -type setting, and I think that will always be the case.

There are some children whose needs are such that their families feel they are safer and happier and better cared for at St. Amant, rather than put them through the struggle of trying to integrate them into a setting where their usual multihandicaps really prevent them from being able to participate, so we have that demographic makeup. Also, at Marymound School, which the member may be familiar with, the enrollment there has decr eased somewhat as well, and those students have a lot of behavioural problems there . They have a smaller number of students there than they used to have.

The Special Education Review, when we do strike it, we hope, will, in terms of parameters of that review, take a systematic examination of many of the factors that impact on the quality of school-based special education progr ams and services. It will not give priority to any one category of student. Attention needs to be given to the impact of special education policies, progyams and services on all the students , because we are concerned with them all and they will be there together if they are in an integrated setting.

The review will operate in a context that acknowledges the roles and responsibilities of school s, divisions and districts , the department, other government departme nts, other agencies, in the integration of special needs policies, programs and services in the province, and it will have to address current needs, potentially long-term needs, major issues and recommend specific strategies to strengthen the student learning opportunities and outcomes. So we will have goals attached to the review, and they will fit. I think. with some of the questions that are coming forward.

I do not know if you were in the other Estimates yesterday when I talked about the dollars that are being transf erred from Health to Education and Health to Family Services Were you in the other room at that point or were you here') Mr. Kowalski: I was in the other room. Mrs. Mcintosh: Okay It will be in Hansard. I just draw your attention to it. Mr. Kowalski: In planning for this educational review, arc you at the point where you have decided the membership of that review committee? I am talking about maybe not the persons but sectorally. Will it be from Manitoba asso ciation of students with disabilities?

Will you have rep resentati ves? From what sectors will it be, and the number you are looking at, who will be on that review committee') Mrs. Mcintosh: Obviously, we do not have the indivi dual names. The number of groups that could be involved if it were to be strictly and absolutely representative would be extremely numerous, because there are just tons of advocacy gro ups around that could be called upon and probably will be called upon in some way during the review. Now, as to which ones will actually be on the review, I am not able to

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-2-27
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 2nd hansardpdf 27.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	875caf98ef8068727d3d94542e4d12579bf7c98c

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