Vol. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 - 6:00 P.M. No. 73 WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 7, 1983

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3753 MJ - 1 The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: Mountains. MR. WARREN: Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS Mr. Speaker. The hen. the member for Torngat Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the House Leader (Mr. Marshall) if the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) will be in today? MR. ~1ARSHALL: The Minister of Education will be in today. MR. WARREN: Okay, Mr. Speaker. In the absense of the Minister of Education,! will ask a new question of the House Leader, I guess,in the absence of the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Dawe),whomihave not seen for the last number of days. Maybe he is busy on the campaign.trail somewhere. MR. SIMMS: MR. WARREN: He is in a snowstorm in Ottawa. In a snowstorm in Ottawa. Well, ~alking about storms, Mr. Speaker, could the hen. the House Leader advise the hen. House if the Department of Highways is doing a satis~actory job of keeping the highroads in this Province clear of ice and snow? MR. SPEAKER: Council. MR. MARSHALL: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: Mountains. MR. WARREN: The hen. the President of the Yes, Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hen. the member for Torngat Mr.

Speaker, I expected that the hen. the House Leader was going tq say yes. I would like to 8284

December 7, 1983 Tape No . 3753 MJ - 2 MR. WARREN: ask the hon. the House Leader (Mr. !~rshall) if he can confirm that it was after 9:00 on MOnday past before any highway equipment was out on the highway between Steady Brook and Corner Brook? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, obviously the hon. gentleman knows that I cannot confirm that. I could make another comment but I will 'not, Mr. Speaker. Obviously, I cannot. MR . WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: "' Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Torngat M:t.

Speaker, se .eing that the M,iil.ister of Education (Ms. Verge) is not hei"e 1I will readdre!;ls my question to the Premier who just walked in, just back from the campaign trail - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: might add. -not looking very confident,I Yesterday there was a slight 8285

December 7, 1983 Tape 3754 PK - 1 MR. WARREN: accident with one of the school buses which was carrying some sixty students from Beaconsfield School to their various homes. Well, the minister of Education (Ms. Verge is here now so I will address my question to her:. It is amazing, Mr. Speaker, that the minister cannot even get into the House on time. Yesterday there was a slight school bus accident, something that we were probably expecting for a long, · long time, and if we are not careful there may be more.

Would the minister now undertake to advise the various school boards throughout the Province that po school children will be transported to and from school in a standing position,which means they must be seated on the school bus? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, the matters raised by the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) are not necessarily related. My officials, specifically the Supervisor of Bus Transportation in the Department of Education, today was on to the police and the authorities of the St.

John's Roman Catholic School Board about yesterday's incident,, requesting a thorough rep~rt. From the information gathered so far it seems that witnesses to yesterday's accident claim the bus ran over a curb which jolted a bolt and knocked it out of place resulting in the rear wheels coming off the bus. This happened,evidantally,when the bus was coming to a stop. The vehicle in question evidentally was inspected at the start of this school year by a licenced garage and was determined to be mechanically fit.

But the police, the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary, are now conducting an investigation of this accident and will be, I trust, providing a report to the Department of 8286

Decembe r 7, 1983 Tape 3754 PK - 2 MS. VERGE: Education. If it is determined that there should be more stringent requitements for inspection of buses ,then all hon . members can be assured that government will actpromptly on the recommendation. What the hon. member opposite 8288

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3755 SD-1 MS. VERGE: says about standees on buses has really no relation~hip to this incident. The present law says that standees are permissible in accordance with national standards when buses are travelling routes where in no place the speed limit exceeds fifty kilometers per hour. In other words, standees are allowed on buses only where buses travel roads within cities or municipalities. Standees are not allowed on routes where the Trans-Canada Highway or a major highway is part of the route.

And I reiterate, this arrangement, this present regulation, is in accordance with national safety standards. MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : member .for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hen. I do not know what the press have _against me but something just came down on my head. SOME HON. MEMBERS: · Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: I do not think the minister should rely on national standards. Surely goodness, we are a Province now and we should be able to bring .in our own standards as it pertains to children in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

I am satisfied that there was an inspection done on the bus. But there were sixty students on this particular bus and there was no one standing. I think it was a lucky day there was no one standing because iftherehad been, with that jolt that the minister just explained, we could have had students injured, and that is a concern to me and a concern to parents throughout the Province.

So my question to the minister is will she undertake to advise the school boards throughout the Province that buses transporting students to and from schools in future -maybe it is too late for this year - but in the new school year that no school board be allowed to transport children unless they are in a sitting position on a bus? Will she take that under advisement? MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : ·The han. Minister of Education. 8289

Dec~er 7, 1983 Tape No. 3755 SD - 2 MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, the recommendation that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador exceed national safety standards by funding a more generous arrangement has been considered aireadv by this administration. But that points out the double bind, does it not~ I mean, after all 1 just meeting nationa.l safety standards when we do not have national average means of funding those standards,. largely because in Ottawa the policies of the central gover .nment 8290

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3756 NM-1 MS. VERGE: impose a huge burden on the Government of this Province, contemplating doing above and beyond that - MR. WARREN: MS. VERGE: What are you afraid of? - which would require additional millions of dollars, is financially impossib~:. It is not that the Government of the Province would not like to do better than national standards, it is that we really do not have the means to even provide for national standards. MR. WARREN: So to Hell with the students lives, right? MS. VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, right now the Depar .tment of Education is paying something in the order of $15 million for student bus transportation in this Province. Were we to provide·more buses so that no student would stand, then we would have to count on spending several million dollars in addition and, given our resources, given our means, given the intransigence of the Government in Ottawa to allow us to develop our own resources so that we will improve our means, going above national standards for bus transportation is impossible. It is out of the question. It is financially impractical. MR.

SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister. If the minister is putting the finances of this Province ahead of the lives of the individual children of this Province there is something wrong with the minister. MR. STEWART: MR. CALLAN: MR. WARREN: her power, Mr. Speaker - 8291 Now, do not be so foolish! That is true. The minister has it in

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3756 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Order, please! The hon. member for Torhgat Mountains (Mr. Warren) has been recognized on a supplementary question and is proceeding to get into a debate and make a speech. to ask a more precise question. MR. WARREN: I would request him Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister. If the minister is concerned about finances maybe she can come back with another answer on this one. Could the minister advise if she has had any contact with the school boards as it pertains to two-way radios to be installed in the school buses? SOME HON.

MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: Education. MS. VERGE: Oh, oh! Order, please! The hon. Minister of I~. Spe~er, no, I have not had any communication with school boards about two-way radios in school buses. Perhaps some of the offic .ials of the Department of Education have but I have not personally 1 nor am I aware of any discussion of that subject. 8292

December 7,1983 MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Tape No. 3757 ah-1 The hon. member for Would the minister undertake through her officials to contact the various school boards throughout the Province I which I again suggest to her on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of school children in this Province who have to travel by school bus,to at least look at the human factor involved and ask the school boards to , number one, install two-way radios in the school buses,which are essential? Also I think she should get after the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Dawe) to have seat belts mandatory in the school buses. Would the minister undertake for the sake of the children in this Province to make sure that the transportation of those kids to and from school is carried out in the safest manner possible? Could the minister do that? MR.SPEAKER: The hon.Minister of Education. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I confirm that every effort has been made by the Department of Education,in consultation with the Department of Transportation and the Safety Council and the school boards,to see that there is a minimum of risk to students travelling on school buses.

There have been a lot of special measures taken over the past few years regarding school bus safety,including special education programmes for school bus drivers as well as stepped-up mechanical inspections of vehicles. And, Mr. Speaker, I assure everyone here that every effort within the financial means of the Province will be made to protect the safety of children riding on 8293

December 7,1983 Tape No. 3757 ah-2 MS VERGE: buses to school. MR. SPEAKER: (Russell) : The hon.member for Eagle River. MR.HISCOCK: My question is to the Premier. The Premier and his government ended up asking the Supreme Court of Ca .nada if they would put aside the decision on the Water Reversion Act until the Province could negotiate with the province of Quebec. Could the Premier inform this House on the progress of these negotiations and when a decision will be / brought down by the Supreme Court? How long will we have to wait for the postponement of the decision? MR.SPEAKER: The hon,President of the Council.

MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the situation with respect to that is that talks are ongoing and talks are still ongoing. The decision has been postponed until the end of December 1 as the hon. gentleman knows,and it is not really deemed to be in the best interests of the ultimate , hopeful successful resolution of the question to make any other comments than I am now making. MR.HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: The hon.member for Eagle River. MR.HISCOCK: A further question to the Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall).

With regard to asking the Supreme Court of Canada to withhold its decision until the end of December, have the governmeP-t and the Minister of Energy contemplated asking the federal Supreme Court to also postpone a decision with the offshore while the Minister of Energy and the Minister of Energy (Mr. Chretien) for Ottawa get back to negotiation and work out a deal befor the decision is made by the Supreme Court? Is the government contemplating this move? 8294

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3758 MJ- 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the circumstances are entirely ~ifferent. The approachs made to the Supreme Court of Canada with respect to the Water Rights Reversion Act,for reasons already given, the atmosphere occurred which made it obvious that there was a possibility of opening negotiations in that case. In the other case,at the present time,regrettably 1 apparently there is no such atmosphere. As the han. gentleman knows, the position taken by the federal Minister of Energy, ~tines and Resources(Mr.

Chretien), · presumably is the position of the Government of Canada andthey in fact are awaiting that court decision, And this court decision, the han. gentlemen ~now,was one that was put in on a direct reference by the federal government 1 so obviously the federal government wants to get the decision~ MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey). I understand that the Minister of Social Services will be accompanying the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr.

Goudie) to Labrador early next week. Could the minister advise the House if he or his department changed their mind concerning the chronic care facility for Labrador? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I am not above changing my mind in the light of new information - MR. WARREN: Hear, hear! MR. HICKEY: - or changing needs or changing circumstances or anything like that. I do not really know 8295

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3758 MJ - 2 HR . HICKEY: what the bon . gentleman is asking me what I have changed my mind on and,therefore ,of course , I hesitate to give him a definitive a.nswer. I will tel~ him if he wants to know why I am qoinq to Labrador. I am going to Labrador with my colleague as I promised I would way back,a couple months ago to discuss with community groups the whole area of service s by my department ,with some emphasis on chronic care services,and to have some meaningful dialogue . I had met with the Health Care Committee in St.

John 's here for a day,but the re are other groups and other individuals whom I believe it would be useful if we had some dialogue with. As to changing of mind on that particular issue, Mr . Speaker, I do not think I am in a position,nor have I had any information which would lead me to any conclusion that there is any change of mind on that _particular point . 8296

December 7, 1983 Tape 3759 PK - 1 MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (Russell)~ The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. WARREN: :I:r:_ _('i _:e~evious question to the minister some time ago,the minister said ·that chronic care patients would be taken care of in the Paddon Memorial Home. Now could the minister advise the House if he has received confirmation from officials from the Paddon Memorial Home that they cannot accommodate any chronic care patients? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: No, Mr .

Speaker, I' have not receiyed anything to indicate that the Paddon Memorial Home c~nnot accommodate any more chronic care patients. I am aware -~ of the fact when this issue arose there was a vacancy at the Paddon Memorial Home of about twenty-seven or thirty, Very quickly those vacancies were taken up. I do not know what the nature or what the degree of chronic ailment those people have. I do know that there are some people in that home,as there are some in all homes,who are ambulatory.

And what I said in the House, and in fact publicly outside of the House with respect to that particular institution,is that the government's programme certainly calls for an institution or one institution,that we have not been able to afford the luxury of a t-w ·o-tier institutional system , of one institution for people below the age of sixty-five and one for abo~e the age of sixty- five,at a time , Mr. Speaker, when we are unable to deal with the whale problem of chronic care throughout the Province as -----, quickly'as we would like to. So consequently we cannot afford that ·' kind of luxury.

That is really what I said. 8297

December 7, 1983 Tape 3759 PK - 2 MR. HICKEY: The other point I made I think was a very valid point, Mr. Speaker, as well, and that was that,given the fact that there is a very well run, a very good institution, in fact, almost a new institution, one of the newer ones in Happy Valley/Goose Bay,that if and when the need was such that additional beds were required,the appropriate thing or the practical thing . to do would be to extend that institution. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN : Mr.

Speaker, I was anticipating the minister's last remarks. ·Now that the Paddon Home cannot accommodate any other patients, in fact there are nine people at the present time on the waiting list, with this in mind,and with the need for chronic care -facilities in Happy Valley/Goose Bay area, including North West River, has the minister considered - two questions in one, Mr. Speaker - has the minister considered an expansion to the Paddon Memorial Home? And if so, . would the expansion have to go on the priority list below,say,Gander and Placentia and Carbonear and Burin and so on?

How would this fit in when chronic care facilities are urgently needed in Happy Valley/ Goose Bay at the time? 8298

December 7, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Tape No. 3760 SD - 1 The hon. Minister of The needs, Mr. Speaker, of people suffering from chronic illnesses and those requiring chronic care services is an ever-changing situation. A priority list is a priority list based on need and based on a very solid, carefully developed criteria. If we are to keep up to date with that and to give it some kind of sanity in its application, then the list obviously would change from time to time based on changing conditions.

I can certainly say to the hon. gentleman, who refers to a waiting list of nine, I am glad to see that he has revised his figures because in another discour~e in the aouse some time ago, mdnths ago, the figure of 113 was used. MR. WARREN: No, I never said that. MR. HICKEY: I am not saying the hon. gentleman did, but the figure of 113 was used. And I said at the time there were twelve, now the hon. gentleman says nine, so that makes me pretty much on target because I believe we looked after four or five during that period of time.

Mr . ~' finally, a waiting list of nine is a very good position to be in in the Province, especially when I have to look at a list of 240, a list of 420, a list of 170 and all of those areas. MR. WARREN: How many in Gander? MR. HICKEY: There is a waiting list of 170 in Gander, Mr.

Speaker, but I have not seen that list and that list will have on i~ I am sure, people from areas other than Gander where there are institutions, such as Lewisporte, Grand Falls, down the loop where there is an institution down in Wesleyville, and a catchment area for Gander to a large extent is Gander because there are other institutions all around it. So I suspect that the waiting list of 170 would not necessarily apply to the town of Gander. 8299

December 7, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Tape No. 3761 NM - 1 The han. member for Mr. Speaker, I want to get back to a question that I asked the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) yesterday. The minister in her response did not say very much in the way of answering the question that I asked. Actually my question was to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) and he referred, . or deflected it to the Minister of Education. Could the Minister of Education tell the hon. House whether or not a new site has been chosen for the proposed new School for ta~ Deaf, has a site been finalized? MR.

SPEAKER : The han. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, no, a site has not been finalized. Various locations in and around the city of St. John's have been examined. One attractive site does not seem to be available, or at least the last indication I had was that it was not available. To come back to yesterday, I think the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) asked specifically whether the Minister of Finance's statement about no new initiatives in 1984-85 would stifle the needed new facilities for the School for the Deaf. Mr.

Speaker, the proposal to replace the School for the Deaf is not new, ~t is something that has been before government for several years and it was provided for in the five year plan.with other major educational capital projects now being on stream,the School for the Deaf replacement has moved up to become number one priority for major education capital works in the Province. And I am optimistic that the means will be found to fund the desperately needed new facilities for the Newfoundland School for the Deaf. It is just a question of refining the design so that it is 8300

December 7, 1983 MS. VERGE: and is affordable. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Tape 3761 NM- 2 adequate yet economical The hon. member for A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 8301

December 7, 1983 Tape No . 3762 MJ - 1 MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) yesterday did say that it was a high priority and she has repeated again now that it is a high priority with government.

Actually ,in the five year plan that the minister refers to,there is a short paragraph there which says, 'A high priority' - and this was tabled in the House back in 1980, three years ago - it says, 'A high priority has been assigned to providing a new School for the Deaf children early in the planning period.' Now that was three years ago and,of course, the first or second year would have been early,! am sure 1in most people's estimation 1but here we are almost down to the last couple ~f years of the planning period and the minister tells us that there is no site chosen.

Would the minister confirm to this House that there will be some money in next year's budget? As I said yesterday, in 1982-83 $600,000 was allocated, I none was spent, last year none was allocated, none was spent. Will the minister assure this House that in this year's budget that some money will be allocated for the new School for the Deaf? MR. SPEA..XER(Russell ) : The han. the Minister of Education . MS. VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, it really would not be proper for me to short-circuit the legitimate budgetary process which has to involve every member of · ·government, which has to receive input from every department of government and give any firm indication here today about what will be provided for education in the next budget. I am afraid the han. member and the general public are going to have to wait until that process is carried out and announcements are made, in the proper way,through the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hqn. the member for Bellevue. 8302

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3762 ~u - 2 MR . CALLAN : Mr . Speaker, back in March or April of last Spring, when the committee of concerned parents of deaf children discovered that there was no money allocated in the budget, this committee met with the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) and the Minister of Education orally gave some commitments and some promises to that group . As I understand it,though 1 months went by and they were trying to get the Minister of Education to put on paper the promises that she had made orally at that meeting . Would the minister confirm that she has now put these promises and commitments on paper? 8303

December 7,1983 Tape 3763 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Education. ·MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, the precise nature of government's projects for next year will nat be determined,as I said before,until the budgetary process is carried out. Now,at the moment officials of the Department of Education 1with the Department of Public Works have completed the task of reviewing the proposed design. I understand from my colleague, the Minister of Public Works (Mr.

Young) that a report is about to come to Cabinet outlining that review,as well ·as providing some information about possible sites for the facility; And it will not be until all of these things are done,which will culminate in the full Budget and decisions which will be announced by the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) ,that I will be able to give any exact undertakings and commitments to the people associated with the School for the Deaf.

What I have done is assure them that government has not reversed its intention 1 which it stated in the five year plan,of proceeding with construction of replacement facilities for the School for the Deaf. There has been a fair amount of preparatory work done and this project has now moved up to number one priority in major educational capital works with the other two top priorities stated in the five year plan now having been taken care of or in the process of being taken care of. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, let me put a supplementary question,then,to the Minister of Finance. I tried it yesterday and he referred the question. In view of the fact that the present School for the Deaf is located dangerously close to the airport, dangerously. close, and 1of course, inappropriately close because of the traffic and the noise and 8304

December 7, 1983 Tape 3763 PK - 2 MR. CALLAN : so on from the airport, for the instructors and so on, and in view of the fact that · there is .a fair amount _of pressure,! understand 1with companies moving in here in anticipation of reaping some profits from the offshore oil and so on, that .there is some pressure from companies to obtain the site \>There the School for the Deaf is located presently for helicopter launching and landing pads and so on1 8305

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3764 SD - 1 MR. CALLAN: would the minister confirm or deny that the School for the Deaf will not be among one of the projects that the minister referred to in h~s mini-financial statement of two weeks ago which will have to be shelved? Will the minister tell us whether it will be shelved or not for the next year? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. mero~er is,understandably, because he obviously has a concern in this area,trying to get a commitment, but I just have to reiteriate what the hon. l-1inister of Education (Ms.

Verge) said, that all government expenditur'es are planned and the main planning mechanism is through the budgetary process and that process has to apply to all initiatives of government. But, on the other hand , I think the hon. member should take comfort in the fact that government has stated a clear policy of replacing the School for the Deaf. It will be done with the greatest possible dispatch.

Unfortunately there were difficulties run into earlier on when th .e cost came in much above expectations and there had to be some delay as a result of that, But I do not think that alters the policy t~;;~t _of this government which has been stated any number of times, put in writing and so on and so forth • But nevertheless ,when you get down to the actual allocation of funds 1 that has to await the budgetary process. MR. SPEAKER: Time for the Question Period has expired . ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WH:ICH NOTICE EAS BEEN GIVEN MR. HICKEY: ~..r • Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Social Services. 8306

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3764 SD - 2 MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to offer the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) a bit of additional information on the question he ·raised regarding the lady in Hawkes Bay. First of all, I informed him that the lady was offered accommodations in a community outside Hawkes Bay, and the media, CBC, I believe, indicated that she did not want to move there because she wanted to remain with her relatives. I can inform him now that she had a brother in that community, I think that is as close a relative as one can get, and she still did not want to move.

The hori. gentleman also raised the point that I knew about the issue three years ago from the former member for the area, Mr. Bennett. I want to tell him that on September 10, 1981, Mr. Benneet made_.a phone call to my Director ot Inquiries, she investigated the matter through my social worker and managers out in the area, got back to Mr. Bennett October 6, gave him a copy of a detailed report of the circumstances, which I am unaBle to table because, of course, we do not speak publicly about confieential matters pertaining to our clients, like some people do_, and obviously that report satisfied Mr.

Bennett very much because he did not make any further representations, and I was not made aware of the situation until I heard about it on CBC. 8307

December 7, 1983, Tape 3765, Page l -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the answers to questions 157 and 159 on the Order Paper asked by the hon. the member for Eagle River(Mr. Hiscock). MR. HISCOCK: Why did not the hon. minister read them? MR. YOUNG: They are too foolish to read, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Are there any other Answers to Questions for which Notice has been given? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! • MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion, second reading of a bill "An Act To Control And Regulate The Distribution Arid Use Of Pesticides". (Bill No. 72). MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of the Environment. MR. ANDREWS: Mr. Speaker, this is a new act replacing the old Pesticides Control Act passed in 1970, which is thirteen years ago. Since that time there has been considerable changes in the use of pesticides and herbicides throughout the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

A basic change that we are presenting here, I will be asking for in this new act, is the old act did not bind the Crown.,: In that regard I refer to spray programmes that may be proposed by government agencies, Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, Forest Resources and Lands, the Department of Agriculture and various other 8308

December 7, 1983, Tape 3765, Page 2 -- apb MR. ANDREWS: government agencies, and the Department of Transportation. All of these government . ,agencies are, particularly Hydro, Transportation and so on, clearing right of ways for highways, power lines and so on. The old act did not provide any requirement for the offenders, the breakers of any laws to restore the environment after damage; the new act will do that. There was no provision in the old act for an operator to carry accident IiahilLty insurance to protect the public or the individual applicator f~om unforseen accidents. prohibit sale will require that.

There was no provision made to to an unlicenced person; the new act And there was no provision made for using unlicenced assistants. Mr. Speaker, in the old act the maximum fine was $1,000 per offence, that ,.,as $1,000 per day, the new act will provide a fine not to exceed $10,000 per day, which we think is necessary at this point in time, with the changing economic times, and with some of the proposals that may be required throughout the · Province, this will be required to act as a deterrant.

We have also some need to change the act to make it consistent with the Pesticides Control Act of Canada and the new Charter or Rights regarding searching procedures and so on. Mr. Speaker, this, as I say, is an updating and modernization of the old act. There are some other changes which I think I should comment on very briefly. There is a clause preventing injunctions to stop pesticide spray orogrammes \\Then they are approved by the minister and the department~ This is necessary because quite often •there is a limited time 1 a window frame, as it is called, to spray~ it may be the first two weeks 8309

December 7,1983 Tape No. 3766 ah-1 MR. ANDREWS : in the Fall of the year or maybe one week in the year,and any injunction granted as quickly as that would completely throw such a spray programme out the window. We have this anti-injunction of law now in the spruce budworm spray programme and there has been very little comment by_the public about that.

The Act will provide for an appeal to the minister regarding persons who are not happy with the spray programmes that are going on and ,. of course, it also provides for the minister to halt any spray programme and for inspectors to halt spray programmes on site if necessary. Mr. Speaker, this is, as I say, a modernization of the old Act to provide regulation an laws which are needed in the modern times, an updating of a thirteen year old act,and I move the second reading. MR. WARREN: MR.SPEAKER (AYLWARD): Mountains. MR.WARREN: Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Torngat Mr.

Speaker, I will not have very much to say on this particular bill, ·rn fact, I welcome the minister bringing in the bill and I assure him that on thi .s side we will be voting for the drunk if it is a bill that is going to assist in any way to manage our resources, And I believe that this bill could do it , Mr. Speaker. However,! must make a few comments, in particular on

Section 1, the .first part,subsection (g) "pesticide" includes -- rrr -in~ecticide '; and so on and so on ;'for the destruction or control of insects~ . birds, rodents : .or other pests or fungi, " Now, Mr. Speaker, I am just wondering . about the word 'Rodents'.I would think the common thing there would be rats, and I know that there is a school down in the Notre Dame Bay area, 8310

December 7,1983 Tape No. 3766 ah-2 MR. WARREN: according to media reports . and according to the Superintendent of the school board down there, where there is a problem with rats, a particular school down there that some 200 or so children have to attend. Howev.er,according to one lady on the radio station yesterday morning it sounded like there were more rats there than students.

And if this is the case, I am sure that this pesticide could possibly come in very handy down in Port Albert, I think is the name of the place, and probably they will be able to get rid of those rodents that are in the area down there so that the kids can get back to school. Another section, Mr. Speaker, I am quite concerned about, and let us hope that the minister can have more power in the future than he showed in the past, and that is pertaining to the storage of such pesticides as he is prescribing here in the bill.. As we know, Mr.

Speaker, there was under the minister's department, under the minister's own eyes, we might say literally speaking, there was the disappearance 8311

December 7, 1983 Tape 3767 NM- 1 MR. WARREN: was it not? MR. CALLAN: spot. It is out in Millertown. MR. WARREN: in the Hillertown area, I was looking at the That is right. Out in the Millertown area there was the disappearance of x number of containers - MR. CALLAN: In area 17. MR. WARREN: - in area 17 actually, as my colleague says. My colleague was up there a while ago looking at the place that ~t was removed from. The minister said, I think, in his comments that there will be proper storage facili~ies available for these ingredients.

However, if the minister is no better in the future than he has been in the past in looking after storage, then I would suggest that the minister needs more than this bill to protect the health of the people in this Province. And at the same time, he said an inspector can stop a spray programme on site, and the minister can at any time stop a spray programme. This I will agree with, ~tr. Speaker. However, let us hope that if a spray programme needs to be stopped the minister will not procrastinate, wait until the damage is done. Because this government is known, Mr. Speaker, to procrastinate. MR.

CALLAN: for, Procrastinating Conservatives. MR. WARREN: That is what the "P" stands Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Social Services for the pas~ ~wo and a half years, since September 1981, has known about this family down in Hawkes Bay and yet it is only now, in the new year that this family will finally get a house. MR. CALLAN: Closing mines down, closing refineries down, they are not Progressive Conservatives, they are Procrastinating conservatives. 8312

December 7, 1983 Tape 3767 NM- 2 MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, the minister has been told about the chronic care in Northwest River, in Happy Valley - Goose Bay and it is only now this week - MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. WARREN: - that the minister is going to go down,and·he is going to change his mind. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would like to remind the hon. member that we are doing Bill No. 72,and remind him of the rule of relevancy. The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, I was talking about the word 'procrastination' and I was just giving examples - . ~ - --- --~· _· -·-. of how this government procrastinates.· I hope that they will not procrastinate on this particular bill and make sure that they have the proper storage facilities in place and not throw it out in the woods somewher .e, be taken or be stolen and so on. MR. CALLAN: Conservatives and Sorry Tories. MR.

WARREN: put it out there ready to They are called Procrastinating Let us hope that his inspectors and himself as minister will,if they have to act,will not, again ··I will use the word 'procrastinate' , will not keep on fi.nli.nq finding some reasons why they should not ~top the spray. Because if that happens, Mr. Speaker, damaging. the ~ result could be Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, in Section (9) it says "Every person who keeps, stores or transports a pesticide shall do so in a manner that", (a), (b), (c), and so on. Now, could the han. minister advise other than what it says here? Under (

a) it says, "insures that the pesticide does not come into contact with , or contaminate 8313

December 7, 1983 Tape 3761 NM- 3 MR . WARREN: ~ood or drink of humans, animals or plants; and (

b) insures that the special precautions or warnings on the label of a pesticide package are strictly adhered to ." That, Mr . Speaker, is very vague indeed . I do not think the minister has been strong enough in section (9). The minister has not shown enough force. If the minister is as forceful as he thinks he is, or as forceful as he should be in some things, I am sure .section (9) could have been stronger. He should have made it 8314

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3768 MJ - 1 HR. WARREN: mandato ry that those are carried out. Not many of them are mandatory, Mr. Speaker. I would suggest to the minister that

Section 9 should be made a little more forceful and it would not then have to come back at a later date to be amended. This bill probably will have to be refined in another Se13sion. But t!:J.e minister could make

Section 9 more forceful, making it compulsory, mandatory that those people - and he is using the word person - those person~, or those companies whichever the case may be, follow the rules and regulations to a T. MR. PATTERSON: MR. CALLAN: ship. · ~ffi.. PATTERSON: ~·That about the rats? Rats always leave a sinking Who is the rat? MR. WARREN: I am surprised, Mr. Speaker. The han. the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) is always interrupting me when I speak and he is always trying to get me into a debate with the han. gentleman. However, Mr.

Speaker, if he wants to talk about rats, surely goodness all we have to do is look across at the hon. gentlemen and we have all the rats we can talk about, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: Nova, are you? MR. WARREN: You are not talking about Terra Mr: Speaker, talk about Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, I do not think, when the election results come in around 8:00 p.m. tonight, there will be too many rats running around in Terra Nova. Tomorrow morning, I would say, Mr. Speaker, with all due respect to the Chair, Sir, there will be a victory for the Liberal party. In fact, according to the latest poll - 1m.

SPEAKER (AVlward) : Order, please! Order, !'lease! I wish to once again remind the han. 8315

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3768 MJ -2 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward} : member of the rules of relevancy. I cannot see how the by-election in ~erra Nova has much. effect on the Pesticide Control Bill which we are discussing right now. Mountains. MR. WARREN: The han. the member for Torngat Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am sure it will, Mr. Speaker, because with our Liberal candidate, Mr. Thoms, in place after tomorrow, Mr. Thoms will make sure that the ~ pesticides will be used in the best manner possible in the district of Terra Nova. This is why, Mr. Speaker, I brought up about Terra Nova.

With those few remarks I would ~ike to say that we support the bill but in doing so we caution the minister to use his power in the right manner, and with concern for all people in Newfoundland and Labrador, and to make sure these pesticides are used in as safe a manner as nossible so as not to disrupt the health of the people. MR. SPEAKER: If the han. the Minister of the Environment {Mr. Andrews).now speaks he will close the debate. MR. ANDREWS : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of the Environment. MR. ANDREWS : Thank you, Hr. Speaker. A couple of points were raised by the han. the member on

Section 9. I think that

section is strong enough. It says, 'Every person who keeps, stores or transports a pesticide 'shall' do so in a manner that' -and so on -'insures that pesticide does not come into contact with, or contaminate food or drink of humans, animals or plants', and so on. It says that that person 'shall' do it and of course,as I said earlier, the fines have been 8316

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3768 MJ- 3 MR. ANDREWS: raised from a maximum of $1,000 ~ day to $10,000 a day with also a jail sentence involved there, a mqximum of ninety days I think it is. Regarding the Millertown situation, Mr. Speaker, as the Minister of the Environment I certainly cannot be responsible for · every theff ··that occurs in the Province, but I did 1 hours,cancel the permit within a matter of two AN HON. MEMBER: A matter of minutes. MR. ANDREWS : A matter of minutes, I guess it was 1 as soon as I could get to a telephone --! happened to be driving that day.

I did within an hour cancet the licence and the permit of Abitibi-Price to spray for that year, after a quantity of the stuff was stolen. Mr. Speaker, I think it was not the smartest thing for anyone to do, to steal those pesticides or those herbicides, 8317

December 7, 1983 Tape 3769 PK - 1 MR. ANDREWS: because in the concentrated form they can be of potential danger. This act,of course, strengthens the control that the Minister of the Environment has.Andwith regard to major aerial spray programmes,such as the one that is proposed now by the two pulp and paper companies and the Department of Forest Resources and Lands, the main base for pesticides and herbicides control in the Province with Agriculture, and Hydro, and Transportation, will come under this Pesticides Control Act.

But The Environmental Assessment Act,I would like to say,will probably be used most of. the time, I would say most definitely be used most of the time in regards to major aerial spray projects where there is concern, and major concerns about potential environmental -or health hazards.

And there is no doubt in my mind that there is concern,be it valid concern or not 1 there is concern about the potential impact of such aerial spray programmes in Newfoundland and certainly in other parts of Canada • And that is why we are putting this programme under The Environmental Assessment Act and asking for an environmental impact statement. I So I think with those acts, with The Pesticides Control Act, The_Department of the Environment Act, and The Environmental Assessment Act that we do now have in place excellen·t control over the use and regulation of pesticides and herbicides in the Province. Mr .

Speaker, I move second reading. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Control And Regulate The Distribution And Use Of Pesticides", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the whole House presently, by leave. (Bill No. 72). Motion; second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Environmental Assessment Act." (Bill No. 73). 8318

December 7, 1983 Tape 3769 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The hon. Minister of the Environment. MR. ANDREWS : I do not have my notes on this act right now. I did not know the hon. House Leader (Mr. Marsha ·ll) was going to call this piece of legislation, I should have. This is a very simple amendment to the act that would enable the Lieutenant-Governor in Council to make regulations respecting the requirements and design arid implementation of environmental monitoring and rehabilitation programmes after the commencement of an approved undertaking.

In other words,what we are ·asking here,major projects such as the Cat Arm project, such as the Upper Salmon, which,! must say , Mr. Speaker, we had great co-operation with Newfoundland Hydro, what we are -asking here is that I have the authority and the Lieutenant- Government in Council . have the authority. to order 1 which we do not now have,the authority to order that proper rehabilitation take place of territory and land that has been torn up in some way, the beautification in some regards, and the clean up of general construction activities.

And I think it will apply I mainly to large construction projects• ·That is what this is aimed at. It is an omission in the original drafting of the act, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN : Mr.Speaker, again let me say at the outset we will support this bill. I am sure if the hon. House Leader (Mr. Marshall) was introducing this bill he would say what he said yesterday,that this is perhaps overdue. 8319

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3770 SD - 1 MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, this is long overdue. It should have been brought in years and years ago. This government could have brought it in years ago. The former government could have brought this amendment in years ago. And, Mr. Speaker, it is a good thing that the minister is bringing in this bill.

Because all we have to do is look at our countryside, just look at our countryside today, where mining companies have come into this Province and have left, and various other companies have come and gone and have just left our countryside in a state, in a terrible, terrible state. MR. CALLAN: ?-1R. WARREN: Mess. In a terrible, terrible mess. I will just go back, · ~1r. Speaker, to the K~ tts-Hichelin area where BRINEX was.doin~ some exploratory work for a number of years. There are vacant, dug out caves and so on just left, the ground is just destroyed in some areas there at the oresent time.

After the minister's answers to my questions there last week concerning the Strange Lake development, Mr. Speaker, I would strongly suggest to the minister if he has not already done so, and I do not think he has, it would be worth his while to take a first-hand look at what has been going on in the Strange Lake area, presumably in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador; we do not knmv for certain because it is on the borderline there. Now, it is no good to go up there this time of the year, no good. I suggest that the minister should go up some time after June, between June and September. MR. CALLAN: him. MR.

WARREN: MR. HOUSE: after, this bill. And I would be glad to go with I beg your pardon. This is referring to cleaning UJ? 8320

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3770 SD - 2 MR. WARREN: Yes, after the thing is done. Well, okay, fine and dandy, this bill does it after the cleaning up is done. But, Mr. Speaker, what about Kitts-Michelin? There has not been any operations at Kitts- Michelin for the last six years? So, now, is this bill going to say to BRI~mx, 'Go in and clean up your act'. There are empty oil drums, Mr. Speaker, all over the countrvside between Postville and Makkovik, old parts of machinery, old parts of buildings just left there, Mr. Speaker.

Is this bill going to say to BRINEX, who left there six years ago, 'Okay,-boys, get back in there and clean up'? Is this bill going to say to Petro­ Canada who is at the Cape, the site in Hopedales, the former USA si-te in Hopedale, is this bill saying, 'Okay, Petro- Canada, if you are movi~g out clean up this mess'? Is this ~ill going to say to the United States Air Force who vacated Cape Ailek and Cape Makkovik and Cartwright some eighteen or nineteen years ago, is this bill saying to the United States Air Force, 'Get in and clean up the mess you left behind'? If this bill is saying this, Mr.

Speaker, it will be one of the best bills that this government brought into this House. DR. COLLINS: I am sure they do not do that. I mean, did the U.S. Air Force leave a mess? MR. WARREN: So far so good, yes, but they still left behind a mess, they left behind a real mess. If you go to Cape ~akkovik or Cape Ailek today and there is still - HR. BAIRD: They left some Liberals behind. MR. WARREN: Yes. The United States Air Force at that time, I do not think, was rules by any Liberal or Conservative government. I think thev had strings pulled by Uncle Sam ..

Uncle Sam was pulling strings and it had nothing to do with the Province of Newfoundland, Mr . Speaker, at that time. And, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest, if the minister is bringing in this bill, why does he not take the first $20,000 and get a ride on a helicopter and 8321 !

December 7, 1983, Tape 3771, Page 1 --apb MR. WARREN: go throughout the various American sites. Even in my han. friend's district, the .member for Placentia(Mr. Patterson), go out and look over the Argentia site. And, Mr. Speaker, go to the outskirts of Gander again and just see if the Canadian Forces have done what they should have done. If we are bringing in this bill to make sure everything is tidied up, let us do it properly. Mr. Speaker, I am concerned that with the development of Strange La~e, the prime area for the caribou herd, that what will happen there will be disastrous.

It may be beneficial financially for the Province, but it will be disastrous for the native people of this ,Province. My underlying concern is what effect this will have on the native people in this Province. Mr. Speaker, even today, and I will repeat about the United States Air Force,, there are small indiviJdual companies going to sites such as Cape Makkovik and Cape A~lek, the site in Cartwright, the site in the Pine Tree area in Hopedale, there are people going there today picking up the remains of motors and building materials. These were just left there, some torn down and some falling dm'm.

Let us improve our country­ side, if this bill is corning into effect, even if it is going to cost government so much money. Clean up the mess and get rid of it. Haybe the American Forces do not need any of this anymore, maybe the government could take it over and turn it over to some of the communities. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that we not ~ring in this bill just for the sake of the minister bringing in a bill, let us put some teet~ into it and have those various sites throughout the Province cleaned up. 8322

December 7, 1983, Tape 3771, Page 2 -- apb MR. WARREN : And let us take a look at the mining companies. Mr. Speaker, if the Iron Ore Company .of Canada decides to pull out~what kind of a mess do you thin~ the ·countryside will be left in i'n Labrador City and Wabush? What h~ppens down in the Baie verte area if Transpacific Asbestos pulls out? We do not know how long they are going to stay. That is one thing we cannot tell. How about Buchans? "" 8323

Decemeer 7, 1983 Tape 3772 PK - 1 MR. m:RREN-: You know, there is no JDining in Buchans now, it is practically closed down. Will Buchans be restored environmentally? MR. CALLAN-: This government are closing everything down. MR. W1ffiREN: This government are forcing companies out of business. This government have forced more companies to go bankrupt in this Province in the last five years than the previous Liberal Administration and the previous Moores Administration did in the twenty­ eight years • .MR. PATTERSON: How many went bankrupt on the Mainland in the last three months? MR.

WARREN: I am not concerned about the Mainland, I am concerned about the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. .MR. CALLAN: up there, that is why. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.~: They have Tory governments Oh, oh! The han. .member should remember that there are some eight Tory premiers across Canada, if that sheds any light on the subject. There are eight Tory premier's across Canada, so that should tell him why there are so~any companies on the Mainland that are going bankrupt, Mr. Speaker.

And the reason those companies are going bankrupt, is, as the ol·a saying goes, because. it is true and nothing but the truth, 'Tory times are hard times. ' We all know that, Mr. Speaker. The hon. tiie. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Crossl, in his bo¥hood aa~ in a schooner going down on the Labrador Coast, :many tilnes: Q:qid then, Mr. Speaker, 1 Tory times are hard times. t And we have an indication across Canada of just 8324

December 7, 1983 Tape 3772 PK - 2 MR. WARREN: how hard they are. MR. CALLAN: What! Is he a turncoat too? MR. WARREN: No, I do not think he is a turncoat. That is one thing I can say for the han. the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Cross). MS VERGE: Did the han. member teach you in school? MR. WARREN: Did he teach me in school? You are bringing up a nice subject now. The han. gentleman tried to teach me in school. SOME HON. MEMBERS: .MR. CALLAN: MR. MARSHALL: the bill? Hear, hear! He was the teacher's pet too • • Are you £or the bill or against .MR. WAEREN: .MI. Speaker, in response to the han. House Leader (~.

Marshall} , we are £or the bill. Let us not do the same as we did with so many bills during the last four years, bring a bill in and not follow up on the bill. That is what this government have done time and time and time again, bring a bill in and. not follow it up. l.ffi. CALLAN: Why is this bill brought in, that is the question? Why was it brought in? There must be some reason. MR. WARREN: The reason it was brought in is because of what is happening, £or example, in Kitts­ Michelin, what is happening down in St. Lawrence, and what is happening down around Baie Verte.

I am sure my han. friend, the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan), will mention some other places where the countryside has: just been destroyed :Oy :mining companies coming in here and taking their piece of the pie. This government gives them a free hand and lets them go in and take over, 8325

December 7, 1983 Tape 3772 PK - 3 MR. WARREN: says to the boys, 'Go in and do what you want to do and '"e will not bother you. ' Then take off and leave us behind with our country destroyed ! This is what is happening, Mr. Speaker. And with those few remarks I suggest to the minister that if he is bringing an amendment ·to The Environment Assessment Act, let us show the companies - MR. PATTERSON: Who brought the shrews into Newfoundland. MR. WARREN: I do not know, Mr. Speaker, who brought the shrews, but I know that this government is still in power and there are lots of rats here. So, Mr. Speaker, with those few remarks I will leave i.t to my colleague. 8326

December 7, 1983 MR. CALLAN: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR. CALLAN: Tape No. 3773 MJ- l Mr. Speaker. The hen. the member for Bellevue. Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to spend very much time on this particular bill. I did hear, though,the minister in introducing the bill, and,of course,his colleague who sits to his left, refer to the fact that this amendment to this bill forces companies to clean up after. MR. 'ANDREWS : before. MR. CALLAN: There is not much sense in cleaning up I am talking about a monitoring programme ~uring~ A monitoring programme ~uring' is what I am talking about. smart, Mr. Speaker. MR.

WARREN: MR. ANDREWS: The minister need not try to .be too It is not becomming of him. I put the accent on after the commencenen~, after the beginning. MR. CALLAN: Oh, ' after the beginning. Oh, I thought the Minister of Health (Mr. House) referred to after they have finished their work. Mr. Speaker, in my particular district, in the district of Bellevue, as a matter of fact in my own home town, there is a barite mine at Colliers ·:. Point , in Colliers Bay,about two miles from where I live actually, and what happened there several years ago, Mr.

Speaker, is a ccxnr:JanY, nobody knew who it was -as a matter of fact,I . remember asking a couple of questions in the Legislature when the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) was the then Minister of Mines and Energy and the minister could not answer the questions . AnC I remember Ron Pumphrey was out, I had Ron Pumphrey out a couple of years ago as guest speaker to out Citizen of the Year Award,and we had a donation from this George Bobellq., this fly-by-· night, who came in there and . hired equipment and local contractors to build a mile and a 8327 .\

December 7, 1983 Tape No. ;J773 MJ- 2 MR. CALLAN-: half of road, and who tore up the countryside . kC to add insult to injury.- the contractors, I suppose_,have not been paid yet for spending $110,000; that was just one of the bigger contractors, there were dozens of local people, local creditors who never got paid for gas bills and repairs bills and so on. I believe the company that is in there now is at least the fourth company that has been into the Colliers Bay mining site since it started four or five years ago, since they went in there, as I understand it as I said. It seems like these people, :~ r.

Speaker, these companies, can move in and take over and tear up the countryside • . I remember when Mr. George B~be~la, the fly-by-night from the States who was there, trucked ~ut tons and tons of barite. · You know,not only was he doing a lot of damage to Colliers Point, the area where the barite mine is located, but he was guilty of noise ~llution as well. Because from very'early -ih the morning until night the trucks trucking out this barite would travel back and forth our highways, tearing up the roads, tearing up the pavement and nobody getting a copper out of it.

And even the local businessmen who were providing some services and supplies, even they were left holding the bag. How these companies can come into a town, Mr. Speaker, as I said, and pollute the countryside and tear up and build roads which will leave scars on the hillsides is beyond me. This is the thing that I am concerned about. A monitoring programme by the Department of the Environment, unless something happens, Hr. Speaker, in the way of adequate monitoring, I have a feeling that something disastrous may happen at that particular barite mine,because the mine is old.

As I understand it,over eightyyears ago barite was mined and loaded -. aboard ships. Today, of course, it is 8328

December 7,1983 Tape No . 3774 ah-1 MR.CALLAN: and so on,but it trucked out by tandems loaded aboard ships. Some of it was used for ballast for ships,because barite is a very, very heavy mineral in comparison with its mass. But the last crowd who we~e there,fQund where the old mine was J. went in and found a: shovel that was left there by the previous operators 1more than eighty years ago,before the turn of the century •. But the last operator, I understand, w~o was gq_:i,n_q -t;9 __ go into this same mine, Ae used some cribbing which was totally inadequate.

I understand that the new operator now says he is going to haul all that out",because he would not send a man in there anyway. And, of course, we are ' in .the age of sending men into mines rather than horses as we saw in other places around the early part of the century,where horses were used to pull out the minerals. So, Mr.Speaker, as my colleaque said, we support this amendment to this piece of legislation.

We think it is a good bilL ... and we hope that it is an adequate bill in the sense that it monitors every project that is ongoing that could in some way if not monitored properly and closely .. result in defacing the landscape, depending on what the project is, of course. I am sure it refers to oil spills and so on as well as to what my colleague referred to and not only to mines but to other industries that we fine around our Province. So we support this piece of legislation, Mr.Speaker. MR·.·SPEAKER (·Aylward) : If the hon. minister now speaks he closes the ,debate . The hon. Minister of the Environment. 8329

December 7,1983 Tape No. 3774 ah-2 MR.ANDREWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will certainly take under consideration the wise words from the other side of the House. I would like to point out that many of the things they are talking about we are now doing, not necessarily by law but with the co-operation of the companies and the institutions concerned. I would like to talk a little bit about monitoring,because I think it is monitoring that we are really concerned about- well,there are two major things, monitoring and rehabilitation.

The major project in Newfoundland and Labrador where we have had good success with monitoring was the Upper Salmon hydro development; we had great success with Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro there. . Take is the type of monitoring that has to continue after the fact,not only before, during and after. This is where you can have something start before,particularly in monitoring.

Also,the spruce budworm spray programme,where we have contracted for the past two years now Memorial University and their scientific people there to do the monitoring, w~_ have an excellent monitoring programme there, probably better than anyone in North America. I know certainly better than the province of New Brunswick.where they just go around and measure as they spray. We -have control blocks thLoughout Newfoundland, some that we spray every year, some that we do not spray and a lot that we monitor every year.

We are getting a very good handle on the effect of the spray programme on wildlife, on flora and fauna and on fish and so on, and at this point in time 1even though all the scientific evidence is not in 1 it appears to be that the spruce budworm spray programme has had little or no effect -on animal, bird life . 8330

·~ December 7,1983 Tape No. 3774 ah-3 MR.ANDREWS:: and fish life in the areas that have been sprayed although once again~ we want to continue this-~on:i;tar.ing programme over an extended period of time. I am not saying that we will necessarily do it every year ,but we Itlight end up doing it after a little while every second or third year to get the long-term e£fect ~ . This assessment act is only three years old and this is the first amendment to it.

As I say ;:;the things that we require now under law we:. are getting great satisfaction with under the P!=9PDne:tltls~ ·of various projects in the Province right now. Speaker, I muve the second readiftg. So, Mr. • On !QOtion, a bill, "An Act Amend The EnvironmentaL Assessment Act," read a second time, ordered referred·c±o~acommittee of the Whole House presently,by leave. (Bill No. 73.) On motion, that the House resolve itself inta Committee of the Whole,MX.~Speaker left the Chair~ 8331

December 7, 1983 Tape 3775 NM - 1 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE: MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! A.bill, ."An Act To Consolidate The Law Relating To Compensation To Workers For Injuries Suffered In The Course Of Their Employment". (Bill No. ·80) MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: If the hon. member opposite would agree, there are no amendments ~hat are ~ecessary to this bill in Committee and I wonder if the hon. gentleman would cdnsent•to a motion that we pass clauses (1) to (118) rather than have them called individually? Agreed? MR. CALLAN: Yes, I will go along with that. -. MR.

MARSHALL: Agreed~ Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. A bill, "An Act To Amend The Hospitals Act, 1971". (Bill No. 76) Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill.without amendment, carried. A bill,

An Act Respecting The Registration Of Nursing Assistants". (Bill No. 75) On motion, clauses (1) through (9) ,·carried. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, there is an amendment to clause (10) . What we wish to do is sub-clause (1) of clause (10) :o£ Bill 75 is repealed and the following substituted therefore. "The Council shall appoint a Disciplinary Committee consisting of those members of the Council together with such other members as the Council may decide, but at least one member of the Committee shall be a registered nursing assistant." 8332

December 7, 1983 Tape 3775 NM- 2 MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr. Chairman, this is for the purpose of giving . the c'ouncil the necessary disciplinary power which 8333

December 7, 1983 Tape 3776 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: is absolutely necessary in an association of this type in order to carry out the purposes of the act itself, and I move - actually, perhaps the Minister of Health (Mr. House} Would like to move it because I introduced the bill. The Minister of. Health moves this particular amendmen-t:, Mr. Chairman. On motion, clause (10) , as amended, carried. Motion, that the Committee report having passed the hili with amendment, carried. A bill, "An Act To Amend The Environmental Assessment Act." (Bill No. 73).

Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. A bill, "An Ac~ To Control And Regulate The Distribution And Use Of Pesticides." (Bill No. 72). Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. On motion, that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to "sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair • .MR. SPEAKER (RUssell): The han. the member for Kilbride. MR. AYLWARD: Mr.

Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and have directed me to report having passed Bill Nos. 72, 73, 76 ana 80 without amendment and Bill No. 75 with ~endment and ask leave to sit again. on motion, report received and aaoptea, Bill Nos. 72, 73, 76 and 80, ordered read a third time on tomorrow. Committee ordered to sit again on tomorrow. 8334

. December 7; 1983 Tape 3776 EC - 2 On lllOtion, amendment to Bill No. 75 read a first and second time, bill ordered read a third time on tomorrow. On motion, the following bills were read a third time, ordered passed and their titles be · as on the Order Paper: A bill, "An Act To Amend The Local. f?chool Tax Act," (Bill No. 6). A bill, "An Act To Amend The Education (Teacher Training) Act," (Bill No. 42).

A bill, "An Act Respecting The Conferring Of Titles And Degrees By Queen's College," (Bill No. 85) • A bill, "An Act ~egulating The Granting Ot Degrees And Respecting The Operation Of Universities And Other Deg.ree..,.Granting Institutions In The Province," (Bill No. 68). A bill, "An Act To Amend The Meniarial University Act," (Bill No. 86). A bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Education Act," (Bill No. 5). 8335

December 7, 1983 Tape 3777 PK- 1 On motion, a bill, "An Act To l\mend The Leaseholds In St. John's Act", read a -third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the ~P~. (Bill No .ll). On motion, a bill,"a.n Act To Amend The Law Society Act, 1977", read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 34). On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Election Act (No. 2)", read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on L~e Order Paper. (Bill No. 71).

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Revise The Law Respecting Limited Partnership", read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 69). Motion, second ~~ading of a bill "Act To Amend The Liquor Control Act, 1973". (Bill No.58). MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, there are just two aspects to this act and in each case they . more or less correct an anomaly in the act. At the present time,under The Liquor Control Act an individual cannot obtain a licence if he has been convicted under the Criminal Code in the previous three years.

However,there is no provision in the act to permit the cancellation or suspension 'of a licence if there are convictions under the Criminal Code after the licence has been given. There are provisions whereby the licence can be sus pe~~~d for other reasons, particularly where the Act itself is contravened, but not under the Criminal Code

whereas,I say,in the first place the individual could not g.et a licence if he had a conviction under the Criminal Code. 8336

December 7,1983 Tape 3777 PK - 2 DR. COLLINS: So the first

part 52,, (1) , Clause (!),permits that cancellation or suspension be_perrnissible in those circumstances. The second part of the act, Mr. Speaker, has to do with drinking in vehicles. The motor vehicle as defined in the Highway Traffic Act is deemed to be a public place. And the act now prohibits the consumption of liquor in a public place, i.e., in a vehicle. aowever, in practice it is very, very difficult , in many cases impossible to prove consumption. So what this

section does, Clause (2), it prohibits the possession of ope~ liquor in a vehicle. If the liquor is in a beetle where it is sealed and so on and so forth,no problem. If the liquor is in a bottle and it is packed in personal baggaqe and that baggage is fastened and so on and so forth there is no problem. What it will dais prohibit -the possession of an open bottle of liquor in the vehicle. So those are the two sections of the act and I move second reading. 8337

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3778 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas} : The han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My friend and colleague from Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warrenl told me he wished to have a few words on this so if one of the pages would do me the honour to slip out and tell my colleague,who I believe is in our common room doing some phone calls,that the bill is corning up, I shall keep it going for a few minutes, Your Honour, until the gentleman from Torngat Mountains returns and he can say whatever he wishes to say.

The amendments are very straight forwa_rd, I think, and the minister has spoken to tell us what they are. I do not disagree with his presentation of what these amendments achieve and I do not disagree at any length with what they will, in fact, achieve. To take the second one first - MR. CARTER: And the first one second. MR. ROBERTS : Well,I will take the first one second I' say to my friend from St, John' s North {_Mr. Carter)_, and I will take the second one first,as I said.

That is really simply closing a loophole in the present statute, It is an offence to consume liquor in a public place, I am not sure why it s-hould be an offence,but it is one and ~ gues ·s it always· has been and I suppos·e the moral climate of our Province is such that we should have it an offence, consuming liquor in a public place.

A motor vehicle has J been defined as a puplic place, again, I suspect,because some smart aleck lawyer was able to convince a judge,or more than one judge perhaps,that a motor vehicle was not a public place and that,therefore,consurning alcohol in a ~otor vehicle was not consuming in a public place and therefore no offence . had been committed, So we got around that very simply in the House by defining a 8338

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3778 SD - 2 MR. ROBERTS : public place as including a motor vehicle and I think that makes some sense. Certainly anybody who puts even the littlest thought to it will agree that alcohol and motor vehicles are a very, very dangerous combination.

In fact, speaking personally, I would be prepared to - and I am one who has been known to take a drink, and I certainly drive a motor vehicle,and I am probably as guilty as any man or any woman irr the House,maybe,of falling away from the line at times, __ but the penalties, in my ":i7w, the penalties for· drunk driving and for mixing alcohol and driving are not nearly strict enough. The Government of Canada, we are told, will be introducing amendments to th~ Criminal Code shortly to toughen up even more the law on drunk dr~ving and I think that is to be welcomed.

Fo~a similiar line of reasoning I welcome this amendment here, the one that is embodied in

section

Section 1, to take the first one second, is a little different. Here what we are doing is imposing a moral judgment and I do not know 1 quite candidly, whether I find it offensive or not. I certainly find indecency and obscenity offensive. As . the minister .I am sure realizes tne law here in Canada and in the United States , . and in England,and everywhere else it has been tried, has had nothing but difficulty in trying to grapple with what is indecency,nudity, obscenity or what have you. This whole bundle of offences which involve-offensive sexual behavior, I suppose,is a rubric that could be put over them all.

MR. CARTER: Nudel fronti ty ·, MR. ROBERTS : Nudel frontity my friend from St. John's North (Mr. Carter) says. I have always understood the offense is not in the nudity per se, because most of us believe that the human body in all its vastly different forms is not offens ·i ve or indecent, but it is the conduct which 8339 -,

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3778 so - 3 MR. ROBERTS : accompanies or surrounds displays of nudity which is offensive and in that sense I do not see how it matters a great deal except to the prurient whether the nudity is frontal or rearal, if that is the word, you know, whether the view _ is taken from the front of the animal or from the rear of the anima l. But in any event , there are a number of offences in the Criminal Code and again I think this is an area where the lawyers, the legal draftsmen in Ottawa, ,in the Justice Department ,are going to try to make further refinements ·to capture exactly what it is. It is a very difficult area in which • 8340

December 7, 19B3 Tape No. 3779 ,l.1_J - 1 MR. ROBERTS : to legislate. It is difficult for two reasons: It is difficult because people have widely varying views of what should be a crime and what should not. MR. CARTER: ~ofuat about people '\'?hO have their bare legs hanging <b-ro.? MR. ROBERTS: The hon. gentleman, ~1r. Speaker, should be grateful it is not a crime to be a barefaced anything because if so he would have been sentenced to life imprisionment many years ago, he is the most. barefaced blank I know of. Mr. Speaker, if the hon. the gentleman from St. John's North(Mr.

Carter) will do .me the courtesy of not revealing that he is unable to appreciate a serious argument, if he would do the House the courtesy of not revealing his stupidity and ignorance everything would go along a .lot ~aster. The hon. gentleman should let us simply assume he is stupid and not open his mouth and prove it,as fie does from time to time. But let me come back to the point, because the minister has addressed the matter seriously and I propose to do the same. I have difficulty in trying to come to an understanaing of·exactly what we are trying to achieve with the liquor control 'legislation.

If we are trying to control or to regulate the consumption of liquor then it seems to me that we should not be saying that if a club owner is convicted of a sexual offence he should lose his licence. If we are saying that somebody who is convicted of a criminal offense should lose his licence to sell liquor - and that is a quantum jump - then I would simply say that this

section here does not do that. This

section before us,

Section 1, which will add 52 .1 to ··the Liquor Control Act, simply says that when convicted of one or more of a number of offences, "the Board may" ,thus a discretion in the board, "the Board -·ma:y cancel or suspend the licence". 8341

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3779 MJ - 2 .MR. ROBERTS : Now, Mr. Speaker, I am not sure I understand the priciple of this,andi am not sure the minister addressed the priciple. He certainly did tell us fairly and squarely what the amendment achieves,but I am not sure he addressed the principle. Perhaps in his closing remarks, remarks to which he is entitled to make in closing the debate, he waul~ address that issue.

If we are saying that some licencee convicted of a criminal offense subsequent to getting his ~icence and the criminal offenca is not related to alcohol, if we are saying that that person, corporate or- I think all.liquor licences are private - corporate or private,as the case may be,should lose forevgr or for a wnile his right to sell alcohol legally, then that to me is a relatively straightfo~ard proposition.

If on the other hand we are saying that if somebody is convicted of a particular type of offence he loses forever or for a while his right to sell alcohol legally,then that to me is a different matter and I would be interested in knowing why we have singled out the sexual of fen:: :s. Because it would appear - and these are not all of the sexual offences.

I do not have a criminal code here and I' d6 not pretend to have a very deep knowledge of the sexual .offence sections of the code, but I would be interested in knowing why we have singled out this group of offences, three or four or five, whatever there may be spelled out here~as justifying vesting in the board the power to remove or to cancel a licence. Mr. Speaker, I can see clearly in principle saying that certain types of conduct make a licencee unfit to continue to exercise the privileges - not the rights - the privileges conferred upon him under a licence.

I would have thought,however,that these offences would include the more violent offences a.gainst the person, that they might 8342

December 7, 1983 Tape N0 . 3779 MJ- 3 MR. ROBERTS: include sexual offenses if you want, but that they would include the more violent offe.nces against the person or the offences of fraud and so forth, all related to the fitness of a person to carry on the business 0f selling alcohol legally . 8343

./ December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3780 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: T.vhat this

section appears t? do and,in fact,what it does do,is say that if a club owner is convicted of indec::erx:y or nudity or one of these things, tha1 he pays not only the penalty imposed upon him under the Criminal Code but he is liable to pay an additional penalty.

And the only rationale which occurs to me to justify that, and there may be others - I will gladly hear what the minister has to say, and whether I support the amendment or not will depend upon what the minister says because I am .really quite open- minded on it- but to single out simply the sexual offences seems to me to require some rationale or some justification. It may be that some believe, and if so this is an honest belief~ ·it may be a mistaken belief 'but it is an honest belief I accept-that a club owner who is guilty of breaching these particular sections is thereby rendered unfit.

But I do not see why or how that can be distinguished in a degree I of unfitness from a number of other offences. If a club owner,for example, either himself or by employing somebody else .beats up a patron, assaults him and is then convicted of assault under the criminal code, it seems to me that in that situation th~ club owner should equally lose hi 's licence. And as I understand the legislation .as it nQW stands, that is not the case, that if he was convicted before getting a licence, now before getting a licence,he would not be able to get it.

And there is a general power in the pet which gives the board the ability to suspend a licence if at any time the licencee ·is unfit in the board's opinion to carry on I Tha~ is the board's general reserve power. But I ask the minister why these particular sections have been singled out for this treatment? 8344

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3780 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: In particular, I wonder if this is the result of the Madonna - what was it? - the "Lady" Hadonna case which arose here in St. John's some time ago. As I recall it,a . -·-- - .. _yo~ng lady was displaying at least her breasts publicly witho~t a11;y covering in a night club,or a day club,or a club, whatever you want to call it, here in St. John's anC' . a number of people took offence. I do not recall whether the young lady was ever charged under the Criminal Code with one of the offences and 1 if so,whether she was convited or · no. I do not know.

I just do not know. And it did not particularly bother me. I never met that young lady-to my recolle .ction or to my knowledge, and I have certainly never been in the club where slie was displaying her talents, whatever they may have been. But I wonder if that is what has led to this

section now? Because as I recall it there, at that time, there ~as some suggestion that the board should attempt to discipline the club owner and the board were advised they were unable to do so. And this may now be the legislative result. If so,perhaps the minister could tell us of that. Now,I am ?pen-minded. I am prepared to listen to what the minister says and I am prepared to be persuaded.

I certainly do not find it at all difficult to accept the principle that a licencee can be guilty of a type of conduct which renders _him un~it to continue to exercise the privileges conferred upon him by his licence and that he then ought to be disciplined by having his licence suspended for a period, or cancelled indefinitely. That does not bother me. I do not know whether the minister intends that if a licence is cancelled the board may then restore it at a later stage. You know, I am not sure how they come to grips with that. But I do question why we have singled out only these offences.

It seems to me that if we are to implement the unfitness principle 8345

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3780 NM - 3 MR. ROBERTS : there are many acts or omissions which would render a person unfit beside those, or in addition to those, or instead of,as the.case may be, those enumerated in this section. So with those remarks . ---.•.. I will say that I think the second

section of this bill connnends itself and ought to be adopted without any hesitation. The first sec~ion,I would like to know·why the ministry have brought it in. The mi.nister told us quite capably, no doubt well briefed and certainly reproduced it accurately, what the

section achieves. But he did not tell us why it achieved it, he did not tell us why the ministry ~eel that this principle ought to be written into our law. So that - MR. CARTER: sit down. -· - MR. ROBERTS; --· .. I am so~ry? - MR. CARTER:· . -\"" Sit down. 8346

December 7, 1983 Tape 3781 PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, I thank the han. member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter). His contri- bution which consisted of the words 'Sit down' was more intelligent as well as more intelligible than most of his contributions. He is obviously getting better. "While the light holds out to burn,"I say to him, "the vilest sinner may return." MR. WARREN: He is the sleep ,er. MR. ROBERTS: I say to my friend for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) you cannot tell if the han. gentleman for St. John's North is asleep or not. He is somnolent at all times, he is asleep only at some • of them. But, Mr. Speaker, the second

section of the bill - as I said, I have no trouble at all in supporting the first

section - I think the minister has to make the case. I have no doubt that there is a case to be made, I would like to hear him make it. Then, when we have had a chance to judge on it, well then, Sir, I will be able to dete~ine whether I should vote for or against second reading of this bill. ~hank you very much, Sir. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. McNicholas): The han. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to say a few words about this bill. In particular, I am quite pleased that my han. colleague for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.

Roberts) came to my rescue earlier, because I am sure he can give it more legal input than I could. However, on the second clause, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the minister and probably the minister can respond when he closes the debate. It says in

Section 84.1, 'No person shall drive 8347

December 7, 1983 Tape 3781 PK - 2 MR. WARREN: or have the care or control of a motor vehicle as defined in the Highway Traffic Act, whether it is in motion or not, while there is contained therein any alcoholic liquor, except alcoholic liquor in a bottle or a package that is unopened and the seal unbroken.' Now, I think this is fantastic, I think it is right on for the minister. AN HON. MEMBER: That is the law now. MR. WARREN: That is exactly what I am going to ask the minister. I understod .d that this was -presently the law. Is this not the law now?

Because I know of people who have been charged, the police have taken them and have * arrested them. I remember two young fellows who not too long ago were parked about 150 feet off the main highway sitting in their vehicle, and there was a case of beer in the back of the truck. Two bottles of this beer had been consumed, and the empty bottles were in the back of the truck when the police carne and arrested both of them. They could not even prove that the guys were drinking while they were in the truck, but the police arrested them because the oeer case was open.

I might sugg~st that nayoe the police were being a little bit hasty, if this is a newregulation that the~nister is bringing in. If this is a new regulation, it is already in effect. r can name a dozen cases where people were found with oeer cases open, where two or three ·bottles had been drank. r do not know whether they were drank in the vehicle or not. I believe, .:lf the amendment is neces- sary, surely goodness the minister arrould undertake tbxough the ::Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheilner} to just go oack over last year, just one year, I would not suggest tfiat fie go back over the last twenty-five years, 8348

DecemBer 7, 1983 Tape 3781 .PK- 3 . MR •. WARREN: b~c .ause tlla t is more than the :minister can do, :Out . surely. goodness the :ininister can get t,he lotini.ster o.f .'Justice . to go back ove;r the la:st year to see how 11!allY people operating vehicies ., you can narrow it_ dow ~ easily, how ll!allY peQple have been charged wi tn pes'session of alconol wb,.ile ·in a vehicle. And, it says here 'No pe .rson shall d:r'i:ve or have the care or control o.f a :motor vehicle ·. " NOW the definition of care or control o£ a .motor v~cle, Er.

Slleaker, I p:r:esame, nether the vehicle is .stopped, or in -motio .n it ~ans care or control. I£ the vehicle is stopped I. guess be . is even cariflg .for it. r w:Qllld jq •st like fo~ the '111iniste:r to verify, this. And U thl.s be the case, I would Stlggest that. our police force, if this 8349

December 7, 1983 ' MR.WARREN:

C) Tape No. 3782 act is not in place at the present time - maybe it is - I would suggest that members of our police force need a little knock on the knuckles if this be the case.And I hope that the ah-1 minister - that is my ~only concern I hope that the minister will be able to confirm in his comments on the bill whether the police now have the ultimate regulations,or have the ultimate ~~w~ : to arrest people.~ youhave the answer to that? Are you satisfied with the answer? r.m. RIDEOUT : Yes, totally satisfied.

MR.WARREN: I hope the minister will kindly give me the.answer, because at the present time I am just as confused as the hon. member for Baie Verte (Mr. Rideout) was. So with those few remarks I hope that the minister can unconfuse the confusion. MR:: SPEAKER (Dr.McNicholas): If the hon. minister speaks now he closes .the debate. The hon. Minister of Finance. DR.COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I will follow the example of the hon~ member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.Roberts) and go from back to front, that is the second item first.

The present Act prohibits the consumption in .. a public place and, as I say, the amendment here defines a motor vehicle as defined in the Highway Traffic .Act . A car is a public place. MR.WARREN: A car is private. DR.COLLINS: No, it is defined as a public place , under the Liquor Control Act ,. A car is defined as a public place for the purpose of that Act. 8350

December 7,1983 Tape No. 3782 ah-2 DR. COLLINS: However,the wording in there,just to cover~this point as defined in the Highway Traffic Act,because the Highway Traffic Act excludes a trailer,and there was no intention under this Act to prevent sameone in a trailer sitting there drinking. a:_bottle·. of beer, for instance. Because- - that is not defined as a vehic1e under the Highway Traffic Act. That~is perfectly alright, there is no change there. l1R. WARREN: DR.COLLINS: No, there is no change there.

But the Act. prohibits consumption and I think the hon. member was worried that people were now being charged on the basis of opened bottles of beer or whatever. Well,they might well be.But,thel).,_ when it gets to cour-"l#unless it can be proved that there was consumption,the court would not act in that case. And it is very difficult to prove consumption.

The only way you can prove consumption is if 'at the time the o.fficer of the law is actually arresting the person . -- he is consuming at that time, or pe:r:haps if he were·.:taken to an hospital and they pumped out his stomach and it was found to contain alcohol, that type of thil).g. Butthose are very unusual things. So the courts have great difficulties in handling the intentof the Act with that word 'consumption' in it. So the amendment now is to make it an offence to have possession,in the car 1 of open liquor.

Now,it is liquor, it is not an open bottle, because if·_ you have an open bottle and there is no liquor in it,that is not liquor. So if you are coming back from your cabin and you have some empty bottles in :the car, because you drank those up in your cabin and you are just bringing them back to 8351

December 7,1983 Tape No. 3782 ah-3 DR. COLLINS: turn them in or whatever, you cannot be charged in that way. MR.WARREN: What about,if an officer stops a guy who has a case of beer _opened in his car but by the time the red light com~s on there are two bottles miss~ng, the two bottles have been thrown out through the window somewhere. DR. COLLINS: If the bottles were empty I think most officers would not take say,two or three drops in t~e bottom of a bottle, because,now, those were left there inadvertently, that is alcohol.

But I would point out that the ' Act says, _'while there is contained .therein,any ,alcoholic liquor~So if you have emp-ty bottles 1 even~ _through :.fbey previously had liquor in them,that is not covered by this Act, that is not an offence. It really covers the situation where someone is actually in a car in motion or otherwise, where he has actual liquor, in a bottle,or in a glass, in a cup or whatever. MR. WARREN: stepping their bounds.

DR.COLLINS: -so our police are over- Well,not in terms of, perhaps, arresting, but because ::they may say,' To the best of my knowledge the consumption has gone on~ But then, when you get into court, 8352

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3783 IB - l DR. COLLINS: will the court accept under the present act just the defining of an empty bottle as -meaning consumption? MR. WARREN: Yes, they will be arresting people just because they found some empty bottles. DR. COLLINS: Yes. But I suspect that many of these people who were arrested were not convicted by the courts for the very reason that we are bringing in this amendment. Now, on the first item there, the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.

Roberts) is not there now, but at least one way of interpreting his suggestion was that the present amendment is too narrow. At the present time we will not grant a license where a person is convicted under the Criminal Code in the previous three years of certain offenses. And he was saying, 'Well, why not have those same offenses transferred into this amendment whereby if the person had a license but he was subsequently convicted, then the license is withheld from him'. Well, all I can say ~o that is that we have attempted to keep this as narrow as possible.

There have been complaints and other discussions about these particular offenses under Sections 163, 169 and 170 of the Criminal Code, the sections that deal with indecency and nudity and that type of thing •. But there have not been complaints to my knowledge, anyway it has not been brought to ltlY attention, a-Pout the sorts of tblllgs the hon. -member 1nentioned, such as a lounge owner Beating up a client and so on and so forth.

If those complaints had come forward perhaps we would have brought in a somewhat Broader provision, but we wanted 'to keep it as narrow as possible, covering the particular complaints 8353

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3783 IB-2 DR. COLLINS: which seem to be legitimate, which seem to be complaints that were based on the acceptance or the level of acceptance of our society for these sorts of things. So this is why the amendment was brought in in that particular way. So with those words I move second reading. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Liquor Control Act, 1973", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 58) Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act". No. 55) (Bill MR. SPEAKER (.AYLWARD) ; Finance. DR.

COLLINS; The hen. Minister of Mr. Speaker, I will only say a few words on this. If there are questions about it I will certainly be glad to expand later on. But essentially this bill is to amend the Income Tax Act to make sure it conforms with the recent changes in the federal Tax Act. The federal Income Tax Act is changed every so often and our act really has to mirror that because the federal government collects our taxes under a tax agreement, and this is just to fit into conformity with the federal Tax Act. So, I move second reading.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 55) Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Gasoline Tax Act, 1978 (No. 2) ·" (Bill No. 84). 8354

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3783 IB-J MR. SPEAKER (AYLWARD): The han. Minister of Finance. -DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the explanatory notes to this act really, I think, give the essence of the amendments. But perhaps I could very quir.kly - MR. CALLAN: word, essence. Essence, it is a French DR. COLLINS: Essence, right,essence. I could go down through them. The first one is just to clarify the . issuing of a license. It just allows the license to be given before the end of the year which will apply to the next year.

The particular wording of the act now says,strictly speaking,that you cannot give a license, let us say, a few days before the end of the year even though the license is coming into effect, you know, in two days time. So that is just to correct that point. The second one --, says that a person to rebrand products must be in possession of a wholesaler license. Only wholesalers are allowed 8355

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3784 MJ - .1 DR. COLLINS: ~o rebrand products and so it is logical that they should have a 'lli1olesaler's licence. That is all that one is. Many of these are of a housekeeping nature, Mr. Speaker. The next one is to allow the minister to provide information to collectors. Th±s is at the request of the companies. They have an association in the Atlantic area where it is useful for them as a group to have this association keep track of what gasoline is consumed in the whole area.

At the present time the minister has no authority to pass out . such information, ·but,as the companies said it is in their best interest that it be passed out, we are acceding to their "re.quest ·~and that is what that amendment is. The next one is to allow the minister to enter into agreement with any person appointing him an agent for the purpose of the tax and this is merely to give flexibi~ity in unusual circumstances. There are sometimes unusual circumstances where the actual wholesaler cannot be made the agent but this will allow any suitable person to become an agent.

Clause 5 is t~ allow the tax on gaso ·line in some cases to be made directly to the minister rather than through the collector,and this is where there is a change in the taxation on gasoline. Sometimes the gasoline in the grounds, the tax has been paid on it through the collector at one rate th .en there is a change in the tax rate and to permit 1 then, the retailer .to sell the gasoline at the new rate- ."aalQ if he kept the tax of course that would incorrect- but allows him to sell the gas at the new rate and then remit directly the extra tax on it. Clause 6, a minimum fine where marked gas is used.

In the act now there is a maximum fine but this is a minimum fine, The minimum fine is $lOO,which 8356

December 7, 1.983 Tape No . 3784 MJ- 2 DR. COLL"INS: i s equivalent to the tax on five drums o.f gasoline,and that is considered to be a reasonable minimum fine because individuals who are craught in thi.s;- sort of' act are i,:r.ldividuaJ.:s ·who se:J;;l at l.east· f:ive drums and usuailil.y· man:y more drums.

Cl.auser 7 ;" this wil.:l. empower an. i:nspec:tor' to take· a. sampl.e- of the gasol..ine when it is suspected that marked qaso.line is bei~g sold intproperly. clause 8 would provide for 'i"egula.tions requiring the bonding of any per.sen who coll.ects tax under the ac::t and that is related to the amendment that we .:Cef~ tn· aoov.e~ Whe!2 any. Persoz:r may I::iS: :maae· aE agent.· It is Just to cover that. Clause 9· Pea::mi:ts licence hol.der to be defined as a person anti tl.e:d to acquire marked gasoline. 'rhat again ±s. a housekeeping amendme1!1:t. 8357

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3785 SD - 1 DR. COLLINS: Number 10, any of that gasoline that the licencee cannot account for will be deemed to be consumed by him and he would be liable to pay tax on it. In other words, Mr. Speaker, an individual who is licenced to sell marked gasoline has to account for it. If there is a difference between , what h.e has records for and the actual marked gasoline that he purchased 1 well 1 he is responsible for that difference and it is presumed that he consumed it himself or that he sold it without keeping a record or whatever.

Number 11, this would clarify that no interest is able to be charged under the act for the month in which tax is received. In other words, Mr. Speaker, we require the tax to be rendered by the 20th of the following month. In other words, if we receive the tax by the 20th of the month 1 the vendor is following the act. I Now the act is unfair as to whether he should pay interest during that month even though he is following the act. And this will clarify that he does not have to pay interest.

Number 12 and 13 a.re jus ·t hous ·ekeeping and Number 14 is to indicate that a lock may be a seal, Again 1 it is houskeeping. With thos ·e explanations l: move second reading. MR. SPEAKER (Ayl ward }: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. HT SCOCK : Thank you 1 Mr. Spea,k .er, We find the government has to bring in legislation like this and the main reason why it is bringing it in is it is even counting pennies, They are making sure that they are closing all the loopholes in the gaso ·line tax ,which is one of the most lucrative forms of taxation in this· Province.

I think it is agreed all across· party lines in this Province that if there is one thing that we have to pay too much for in our Province it is gasoline. Our Province, being such a large area, 8358

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3785 SD - 2 ~iR. HISCOCK: our business people find that the tax is too high, especially with regard to trucking, and a lot of things are brought into the Province. Going around this Summer with the Food Prices Committee, this is one of the things that came up periodically. Having to transport food from St. John's to the Burin Peninsula, the Bonavista Peninsula or up the Northern Peninsula we found had an effect on the cost.

How much was not particularly of any great significance as such, but it is an important thing that we find in our Province that we are over taxed with regard to gasoline. I have told the !"''.inister of Finance (Dr. Collins) before about the differences in ~rices here in St. John's compared to other areas. I would ask the Minister of Finance, when he is replying, if he could say why different regions are marked by the comp~nies in this Province, that if you are in one region you have to pay a certain amount for gasoline at a gas station,

whereas if you are in another region ·you pay ·a different amount. A lot of this, I would assume, has to do with transshipment of the product itslef into those areas. But in St. Anthony you have one prlce, in St. Barbe you have one price and then, going across on the Labrador side, you have a phenomenal increase. On the Quebec side, which is supplied by the same tanker, gasoline there is 51 cents a litre. Travelling the Labrador side, you will find out it is 63 cents.

A lot of this, of course, has to do with the indexing; a lot of people in the Province do not realize that we have indexing when it comes to gasoline tax. Every time the oil companies increase the price tax, every time the federal government increases its tax, ours automatically goes up in proportion through the indexing. MR. BAIRD: When are they going down? 8359

Decerg.beJ:' 7 f 19~8 3 Tape No. 3785 JV-3 MR, HI:SCOCK; Well,f we know in· this life, Mr. s·peakert when it comes to taxati_on very rare.ly does anything go down. 8360 '

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3786 IB-1 MR. HISCOCK: The same way with hydro rates, they continue to go up. We have not heard them ·having to go down. But we find, Mr. Speaker, as the Hinister of Education (!·1s Verge) said, we are pinched for money and we put our children in jeopardy on the highways in the school buses because we do not have enough money to have the proper standards on our buses, and we find out that seventy-two students are travelling on a bus, a lot of them having to stand up as a result of bringing their sports equipment, bringing the music equipment, bringing typewriters, etc.

And even without this equipment,! think it is ludicrous and it is insane to haye a regulation where seventy-two people are considered safe to travel on one bus. I was talking earlier today to a contractor who has several buses, and he evep admitted himself that it was completely unsafe to end up having children travel seventy-two on a bus. Yet here we find the Minister of Education saying that we cannot afford to bring in the standards that are necessary in order to look after the safety of our children.

The Minister of Education checked and said that there was about $12 million being spent on busing in the Province. If she also had to check back to find out how much tax comes in by the way of these buses and by the way of taxes on our transport trucks and other private vehicles we would find out there is a lot more than $12 million. I think with regard to gasoline and with regard to liquor and taxes on cigarettes, probably the three main sources of direct taxation that we get from our people, and equalization and income tax and our mining tax, we end up getting a phenomenal amount.

Maybe the minister could say when he gets up how much do we receive in this Province as a result of the gasoline 8361

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3786 IB -2 MR. HISCOCK: tax, and number two, how much is our tax index, what percentage of the price. Another part that I would hope the minister would address is with regard to the gasoline tax on the border of Quebec and Labrador and in the Straits area as well as in Labrador City 1 and you have Ferment and Labrador City and Wabush. You would find out many people go to these areas of Quebec to buy gasoline at fifty-one cents a liter. We are losing a lot of revenue. Not only that,but we are also losing jobs ·.

And we find out in these areas that it is hard enough for small businessmen mak .e ends meet 1 but when they have to compete with the price of cigarettes I think that are something like fifteen dollars in the I difference- the end result is we find people who are going to Quebec to buy their food, to buy their gasoline, to buy their cigarettes. There last .year the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) had auditors go into Quebec and find ·aut that people on the Labrador side bought skidoos in Quebec and then had to go and pay again in a sales tax on these vehicles.

As I said, one would never believe that the department itself would stoop so low as to have to send in inspectors and make people pay for products that they bought in another Province. In the meantime he is not addressing the problem , that the reason why they are going into Quebec to buy these products in the first place is because of the high taxation that we have. The people in that area of the Province realize that they have to pay taxes but they 8362

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3787 PK - 1 MR. HISCOCK: also realize that they have to compete with another province. Maybe the minister could look at that problem and bring the taxation in line with Quebec or have it one percentage higher than the sales tax in Quebec, which is probably 9 per cent. I also realize that he would .say, well, you cannot treat one area of the Province any different than St. John's or Happy Valley/Goose Bay, Labrador.

But yet if the minister looks at the electricity rate in this Province, there is one rate for the Island part, there is another rate for Happy Valley/Goose Bay, there is another rate for Labrador City and Wabush, and there is yet another rate for al~ those places that are on diesel. So .we have precedents in our Province where th1ngs are not uniform. I would hope _that the minister will address this problem. With regard to this act, we find here he is closing loopholes to make sure that the Province is getting its rightful share.

Clause (11) says that no interest would be charged on the month in which the tax is received. Again, to go back to rural areas of our Province and particularly Labrador, we find out this time in the year you cannot get into Norman Bay, you cannot get into ~lotte~, you cannot get into William's Harbour, you cannot get into Black Tickle since all those areas are now freezing up, and as a result mail is disrupted well beyond a period of three weeks and it is quite possible that, due to no fault of their own there, mail coming in from rural remote areas can end up taking more than ten days in order to get here.

In actual fact, I think the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr . Warren) will agree with me, it would be rather surprising if mail got in here within ten days of being posted. So the legislation itself is a piece of legislation - as I said, the Province needs 8363

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3787 PK - 2 MR. HISCOCK: all of the pennies it can get - that basically plugs holes which we found out needed to be plugged. But, as I said, in the meantime that is one area that we are'overtaxed in. We find out, Mr. Speaker, with the tourist industry - MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! I wonder could I interrupt the hon. member for one minute? MR . HISCOCK: Surely. MR. SPEAKER: It gives me great personal pleasure, being a former Akela, to welcome to our galleries the First Vanier A Cub Pack and its leaders. I MnOW Mr. Noseworthy, ·but I do not know the others. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear 1 hear! .MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Ragle River. MR. HISCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I also, and members on this side, welcome the cub pack from Vanier Elementary. To go back to the bill, Mr. Speaker, we find that comparing the Nova Scotia tourist industry with ours, they have about 3, 000 tour buses and tours coming into that province per year. And we are only getting 10 per cent of that tourist industry coming into this Province. I was rather a little bit surprised that the Minister of Development (Mr.

Windsor) this year, with out 400th. ~nniversary and all the publicity that it got as a result of the Prince and Princess of Wales being here, all of the publicity of the rnin±ster's going to Chicago, Boston, New York and having the caravan go across Canada, having all this money spent on ads, even in Time Magazine, that 8364

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3788 NM - 1 MR. HISCOCK: in actual fact the tourist industry, Mr. Speaker - and this is rather surprising considering the 400th. Anniversary and all the money that was spent - the tourist industry in actual fact was down in this Province with regard to tour buses. One would assume it would be up. The family cars and individual family units corning to this Province was up but only up moderately. And one would assume that after 400 years with the tourist industry and all the input that we had you would have more. And why were the rates down with regard to the tour bus industry?

I would say, Mr. speaker, that one of the main reasons why it was is the expense of corning across the Gu~ .number one~ the expense once you get here with the high cost of gasoline; then when they stay in a hotel there is a tax on their hotel bill, and when they go to their meal, there is a tax on their meal. So it is like the Liquor Commission, which ended up saying, "We are at a point of diminishing returns in our Province because of over taxation", and also we are at the point of diminishing returns on the tourist industry. I think the Minister of Development (Mr.

Windsor) would do a service to this House and to the Province by lowering, for the Summer periods in particular, the tax on the hotel rooms, lower the tax on gasoline for tour bus operators, and making other exemptions. What we would lose on one hand, Mr. Speaker, by lowering this taxation, we would gain in another way by having people employed in the hotel industry, having people employed in the crafts industry, having people employed in the food industry, and we would have employment directly in that way. We should give incentives.

We found out, I believe several years ago if I am correct, the federal government reduced the 8365

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3788 JV - 2 MR. HISCOCK: the sales tax so did the other provinces. We found out here in our Province the tax was reduced for awhile, a three month period I believe, and after that we ended up raising it another percentage point. But I do think that this government should look at that possibility and I think it is a reasonable one.

One could say, 'Okay, how much are we actually going to lose?' But I think t,'lere is nothing wrong with trying to entice tourists here by reducing some of these taxes in the Summer months because we know ourselves, and the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms) and the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) can confirm this, that after the Labour Day weekend all the parks are closed, all the museums are closed throughout the Provnince except the ones in larger areas, particularly St.

John's, and I think that the government should look at the possibility of giving a reduction in taxes on gasoline, on food, on hotels, as I said, for tourists entering the Province. One would have problems obviously, in finding out which individuals should be exempted, but I say, Mr. Speaker, it could be done by exemption of tour buses coming into the Province and other tour buses operating here. The amendment, as I said, was brouqht in to plug loopholes because of the amount of money that we are losing.

I would also ask the minister when he gets up if he could inform us as to how much money is outstanding with regard to the gasoline tax. How much is outstanding, and what is the possibility, in actual fact, of recovering this? We know that there are businesses, with regard to the Retail Sales Tax, going under, but once they go under all they have to do to get 8366

..:. December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3788 NM- 3 MR. HISCOCK: back in business is apply to the Provincial Government for a new licence in a new company name. The Auditor General has pointed out the case of a company which tw-ice did this and the Province ended up 8367

December 7, 1983 Tape 3789 EC - 1 MR. HISCOCK: being out, I think, several thousands of dollars. Is this a problem with the gasoline tax itself? Do we find out that there are trucking companiP~ that are going out of business, that are closing? And is the government owed any outstanding money with regard to gasoline? I wanted to comment only very briefly on it and say that one would be rather surpri~ed, the fishermen all around the Island, to find there is a minimum fine of $100 on unmarked gas. I would put the idea also that the minister could look at, in rural areas, particularly islands like St.

Brendan's, Fogo, Ramea and Coastal Labrador, where Ski-doos are used as part of their life, and as many members on their - ~m. BAIRD: t-Jh.y are you talking about islands? MR. HISCOCK: Well, the reason why I am mentioning islands in particular - MR. BA'IRD: Are the roads paved in Ramea? MR. HISCOCK: The road is paved in Ramea and will probably be kept open. But, with regard to rural areas, Mr. Speaker, we learn that a lot of our rural people are using Ski-doos to get wood and water, to distribute mail between communities, to transport private freight from one community to another.

Ski-doos are not used for recreation as they are here in St. John's or in Gander or Grand Falls by Ski-doo clubs. Perhaps the Minister o£ Finance (Dr. Collins) could look at the possibility of eliminating tax on gasoline used fdr the former purposes. 8368

,,, December 7, 1983 Tape 3789 EC - 2 MR. HISCOCK: It is even more frustrating when roads are not kept open thus depriving the people of ~uch benefit. Also, in most cases, the provincial Department of Transportation does not operate on these roads any. On that subject, I wrote the Minister of Transportation tMr.

Dawe) just the other day 1 and I hope his department will act upon my suggestion, in that, with respect to the Northern areas, as well as the rest of this Province, if two communities are intercon­ nected, it is the responsibility of the Department of Transportation to keep open these roads in Winter and in Summer and do repairs,when necessary 1at the cost of the taxpayers of this Province.

But in areas like Coastal Labrador,where communities are separated by water, and the Premier himsel£ said in th~s House that the best highway system we have in the province is our waterways, yet we have places in Coastal Labrador ~-There the residents themselves have to ~aintain their roads, areas with a population of only from 2QQ to 30Q ox 350 people, and it is impossible to maintain these roads. The provincial government has just increased the allowance, I think it is $10 , per head. The Minister o£ Municipal Affairs (Mrs.

Newhook} has refused some of the smaller communi­ ties who wanted to became incorporated and set up a council. They were told they could not set up a council, they would instead have to become a local service district. And, of course, the difference there is if they have a council, they get, I believe, $2,000 per kilometer o£ road,

whereas under the local service district they only get $10 per head and then road maintenance is the responsibility of the local road board. So I would q.sk the Hinister of Transportation, and the r.tinister of Municipal Affairs, to whom I have sent a copy of my letter, to look at the 8369

December 7, 1983 Tape 3789 EC - 3 MR. HISCOCK: possibility of h~ving pieces of equipment stationed on the Labrador Straits or in St. Anthony, have a grader, a front end loader, and a dump truck, and, when 8370

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3790 IB-1 MR. HISCOCK: the shipping season starts go and do the road from Lodge Bay to Mary's ·Harbour, . move on to the next community, St. Lewis 1and do that road and then go on to Port Hope Simpson, then go on to Williams Harbour, then go on to Black Tickle and do the necessary r~es, And also, probably, the Northern part of Torng.at Mountains. Why is it that the people in these areas are discriminated against because they are separated by water?

Yet when they wantto go and have a council so they can get the $2,000 per kilometer road qrant, because some of these communities, Port Hope Simpson, I believe , has almost eight kilometers of road, permlssion is re£used and ~ey are told to form local service districts instead. I was very pleased when I first got elected that the Department of Transportation and the Department of Municipal Affairs went into Cartwright on a co-operative basis and said, 'Okay, we are building the airstrip, we are doing the water and sewerage, let us do the road at the same time.

Then,once we do it, the community council has something to work with'. I know larger areas, like Conception Bay South, before they would accept Seal Cove . or before they would accept other areas into their municipal boundaries,the mayor o£ the town told the minister and the department, 'We will accept :responsibility for those areas if you pave the roads'. But in rural areas 1and particularly in Labrador, what you end up having is that the road is built and they say, 'Okay, here is the road, now look after it'. I will give an example. In St.

Lewis 1the Department of Transportation went in and built the road •. ·Twelve houses were not connected 1bec'ause of an internal 8371

December 7, 1983 Tape No. 3790 IB-2 MR. HISCOCK: community dispute, and are still not connected. Contact the Department of Transportation and you are told it is the responsibility of Municipal Affairs. Contact Municipal Affairs and you are told it is the responsibility of Transportation. Then you have another example in Charlottetown. When the Department of_ Transportation went to build the roaCI, in there they found they did not connect the schools, they did not connect the community council and -they did not even put a road to the dump. They had to fight tooth and nail until finally that was changed.

In oth~r areas,when they were building ~he roads .in the community of Cartwright and al~ along the coast, when you come to a house the road goes on past it and there might be a drop maybe of ten, five, six, seven -feet, depending on it. What did ~the Department of Transportation say? "Well, you have to look after your own private driveways." Which is true, everybody has to look after them, but at least they had tapering off, but we had to fight tooth and nail in order for that to be done.

So in rural areas,in particular in Charlottetown 1 as I said, the Department of Municipal Affairs told them under the new community plans they had to build in a certain area. They had no o.ther choice. Crown Lands said the same. The Department of Health said the same. The Department of Environment said the same. Here was the Depar ·tment of Transportation moving in to build the road, and what happened?

This new sub-division where they were told to build, and basically it is up in the woods, far beyond the reach of the local road, and here are about eight or ten houses- and they are still building there because they have no 8372

December 7,1983 Tape No . 3790 IB-3 MR:HISCOCK: other choice but to ·build there - and the Department of Tr~nsportation said, 'It is no