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April 13, 1978

31st Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Hansard Transcripts

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

REMOVAL OF WAGE AND PRICE CONTROLS

OHIP BENEFITS

SCHEDULE

ORAL QUESTIONS

INCREASE IN OHIP PREMIUMS

HYDRO EXPANSION PROGRAM

AUTO INDUSTRY

PUBLIC SERVICE BARGAINING

PSI MIND DEVELOPMENT INSTITUTE

TAGGART SERVICE LIMITED

MUNICIPAL GRANTS

EDUCATION FUNDING

PUC CHAIRMEN

LEGISLATIVE BUILDING

RONDEAU PROVINCIAL PARK

MINIMUM WAGE

DURHAM REGISTRY OFFICE

MOBILE HOME PARKS

AERIAL SPRAYING

EDUCATION FUNDING

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

NIAGARA ESCARPMENT PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT AMENDMENT ACT

ONTARIO OFFICIAL LANGUAGES ACT

ANSWERS TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS

ORDERS OF THE DAY

PRIVATE MEMBERS’ BUSINESS

WORKMEN’S COMPENSATION AMENDMENT ACT

AGE OF RETIREMENT ACT

WORKMEN’S COMPENSATION AMENDMENT ACT

AGE OF RETIREMENT ACT

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The House met at 2:04 p.m.

Prayers.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

REMOVAL OF WAGE AND PRICE CONTROLS

Hon. Mr. Auld: Mr. Speaker, the anti-inflation program will start to phase out tomorrow, April 14. This is an appropriate time, therefore, to review the issues with which the people of the province will be faced in the absence of controls and what should be expected from the government to ensure an orderly transition.

Controls were brought in by the federal government in October 1975 to cope with a situation of emergency proportions where spiralling prices, profits and wages were resulting in double-digit inflation. The potential damage to the competitiveness of the national economy and the threat to the livelihood of those on fixed incomes required emergency action. The government of Ontario supported the federal government’s initiative and has continued to do so during the two and a half years that the anti-inflation program has been in effect.

It has always been clear, however, that such controls can only be temporary. We believe in a free society and in the innovative forces which can flow from an industrious people working in the climate of a market economy. At the same time, we must ensure that the freeing up of these forces does not return us to the perils of spiralling inflation. We are continuously faced with the choice between the moderation of self-discipline or an ever-increasing intervention by government in the economy and in the daily lives of our people.

For our part, we intend to conduct the business of the people in the same manner displayed during the controls period. We remain convinced that governments must restrain spending in order to let the initiative of the private sector develop the strength of our economy. Indeed, this government has been the leader among governments in Canada in controlling costs and introducing efficiencies. We remain committed to our plan to balance the budget by 1981.

Mr. Kerrio: Does the Treasurer (Mr. McKeough) believe that?

Hon. Mr. Auld: In 1978-79, for the fourth consecutive year, Ontario’s spending increase will be reduced. In total it will come to about $14.5 billion, an increase of seven per cent over the past fiscal year.

It is quite obvious that it is not easy for a government to hang tough on this mission, particularly, I might say, in a minority government situation where there are extraordinary pressures brought to bear against many revenue-producing or cost-cutting initiatives.

Mr. S. Smith: What nonsense!

Mr. Mancini: That’s nonsense and the minister knows it.

Mr. Breithaupt: Name one.

Mr. Martel: Why would that happen?

Hon. Mr. Auld: But we are facing the challenge, making difficult decisions, and altering our priorities because there is no other way. Labour and business face the same realities.

Mr. Mancini: Who wrote that?

Mr. Kerrio: Darcy McKeough.

Hon. Mr. Auld: For business, the onus is to act responsibly, in the national interest, on pricing and profits, in recognition that excesses on either count will soon backlash against all of us.

For labour, the onus is to act equally responsibly on wage expectations and demands. In our free collective bargaining system, settlements must be designed within the reasonable limits of the ability to pay, and increases should appropriately reflect gains in productivity.

A related factor which will have major significance in the post-controls period is the broad area of employee-employer relations in the public sector. In Ontario the public sector, broadly defined, represents about 22 per cent of all employees in the province. This figure encompasses federal and provincial civil servants, employees in major agencies like Ontario Hydro, those employed by colleges and universities, the health and welfare services, and employees at the local government level including police, firemen, and teachers and other staff of school boards,

Thus the public sector in this province represents a very significant component of our total work force -- and without doubt, the cautions about the need for continued restraint in the post-controls period apply equally to this.

The Ontario government has adhered to the principle that those employed in the public sector should be treated no differently than those in the private sector, and we shall continue to hold to this principle.

In 1975, public and private sector employees went into the controls on the same terms, and in 1978 both will come out of controls on the same terms. In other words, there will be no discriminatory actions -- no special rules -- devised for Ontario’s public sector employees in the post-control period.

Nevertheless, it must be recognized that the public sector has features which makes it difficult from the world of private business. As a government, we continue to endorse the principles of free collective bargaining in the public sector but it is when an impasse is reached at the bargaining table that some of the differences between the public and private sectors become clear.

In many circumstances, it would be just as inappropriate for public sector employees to withdraw their services as it would be for public sector employers to deny services to the public by resorting to a lock-out. In such situations, employers have a special responsibility to ensure that public sector employees are fairly and adequately compensated, and are not treated unjustly.

To this end, the government endorses the conclusions of the conference of first ministers that compensation of public sector employees should, whenever possible, be based on comparisons of total compensation with persons doing equivalent jobs in the private sector.

Some very significant considerations arise from the fact that, for large elements of the public sector, the only legal remedy where compensation cannot be determined at the bargaining table is binding arbitration. Clearly, it is of the utmost importance that arbitrators, in making their awards, adhere not only to the principles of fair compensation but also to the necessity for general economic restraint in the post-controls period.

In this connection, it is the government’s view that the expenditure levels for 1978-79 as presented in the recent Ontario budget represent a realistic measure of the ability of the Ontario economy to pay for public services, including the public payroll.

Because of the obvious importance of the arbitration process in the coming period, the government did consider legislating more precise guidelines for arbitrators to ensure that the kinds of consideration I have mentioned carry due weight in their future judgements. On balance, the government has concluded that the more precise the guidelines, the more the collective bargaining process would be undermined, and hence has decided to rely on the good sense of arbitrators to recognize the need for continued restraint and to rely on public sector employers to convince arbitrators of the limitations in the employers’ ability to pay.

And frankly, given the acute awareness and concern of all citizens about our present economic circumstances, we have faith that all persons involved in wage and compensation settlements, either at the bargaining table or in arbitration, will exercise the kind of responsibility and sound judgement that is so necessary in the period immediately ahead.

This indeed is the challenge we all face, individually and collectively, in both the private sector and the public sector. As we move out of controls, and into a period when our economy can be nurtured back to full health, one and all must share the responsibility of limiting their expectations and respecting the needs of fellow citizens. Were we to fail, our economic prospects would obviously be rather bleak, and the road back to a stronger, more competitive provincial economy would be all the more difficult. But I am optimistic.

I believe that all of us can see what we have to do in order that we may all prosper, and that life in this province and this nation will continue to be positive and fulfilling.

In other words, my confidence flows from the belief that we all have been sufficiently disciplined by the controls experience, and are sufficiently relieved to be free of controls, that we will act moderately and wisely in the important period we are about to enter.

OHIP BENEFITS

SCHEDULE

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: Mr. Speaker, I am glad to announce that the government has reached agreement with the Ontario Medical Association on the increase to be applied, effective May 1, 1978, to the

schedule of benefits payable under the Ontario Health Insurance Plan. This

schedule of benefits will be published by the government.

[2:15]

The increase averages six and a quarter per cent for the whole

schedule and applies, in differing amounts, to the various specialties and to physicians engaged in general practice.

These differentials, whose thrust the government accepts, remains to be spelled out in detail in relation to the six and one quarter per cent average increase when the necessary computer work is completed.

This agreement represents the unanimous recommendation of the Ontario Joint Committee on Physicians’ Compensation. It has been ratified by the board of directors of the OMA and has been approved by cabinet.

As hon. members know, this is the last year that physicians’ compensation will be subject to the regulations of the Anti-Inflation Board. The agreement is, therefore, to cover the eight months ending December 31, 1978. The joint committee is satisfied that the agreement complies with both the spirit and the letter of the AIB regulations.

The government will be glad to submit the agreement to the Anti-Inflation Board on behalf of both parties so that the board can be satisfied that those physicians who bill on the basis of this amended

schedule of benefits will qualify for the reduced reporting requirements of

section 27 of the anti-inflation regulations. Essentially, this means that a doctor who conforms to an approved

schedule of benefits is not required to submit detailed information on his overhead. This does not apply, however, to opted-out physicians.

The joint committee is expected to reconvene next month to begin discussions on whether further adjustments to the

schedule of benefits may be necessary when the present agreement expires at the end of this year.

This is the fifth increase to the

schedule of benefits that has been agreed between the government and the OMA since the joint committee was established in 1973 under the neutral chairmanship of Mr. Harold Clawson. I wish to pay tribute to the outstanding contribution which Mr. Clawson is making in this important field and to express the gratification of the government at the continued cooperation of the Ontario Medical Association in the work of the joint committee.

ORAL QUESTIONS

INCREASE IN OHIP PREMIUMS

Mr. S. Smith: A question of the Treasurer, Mr. Speaker. Is it correct that prior to the decision to increase OHIP premiums the minister and/or his officials in the Treasury ministry were made aware of the results of a public opinion poll regarding the acceptability of increasing OHIP premiums as opposed to increasing other taxes?

The question I am asking has three parts: (

a) can he confirm the existence of this poll; (

b) who funded it; and (

c) will he share with this House the questions asked in this poll and the results obtained?

Hon. Mr. McKeough: Mr. Speaker, there have been, I think, polls done by Gallup, and two years ago, or a year ago, questions asked in a government-wide poll. But whatever the time frame is that the member is putting on the question -- in say three months or six months -- I am not aware of such a poll and did not see it and therefore I can’t make it available to the member.

Mr. S. Smith: By way of supplementary, would the minister undertake discussions within the government to find out whether other people in the ministry and in other parts of the government were aware of such a poll? As for the so-called government-wide poll that the minister referred to as having taken place about a year ago, if that was the last poll that was done -- which I am questioning -- would he share the results of that poll, the questions and the answers, with the members of the House?

Hon. Mr. McKeough: Perhaps the member would like to put that question on the order paper.

Mr. Cassidy: Can the Treasurer say, as a supplementary question, what consultations took place between the Treasury and the Ministry of Health about the OHIP premium increase before it was put into the budget? In particular can the Treasurer say whether he was aware of the advice of the senior officials of the Ministry of Health that to raise premiums would be inequitable, regressive and that the government should instead look at means of finding the increase in health costs, or funding that through the personal income tax?

Hon. Mr. McKeough: Normal discussions take place -- and those discussions go on, I suppose, 12 months of the year between myself and my colleagues, and outsiders -- perhaps not on this specific issue -- but normal discussions would take place when decisions have been reached with respect to the premium structure. With respect to the second part of the question, I have not seen the document which the member refers to.

Mr. Cassidy: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker, could the minister be more specific as to whether in the month or so prior to the budget being decided upon there were specific discussions with the Ministry of Health in view of the further fact that their advice was that there was no visible link between health premiums and the public’s awareness of the cost of health and that this was not the route that should be gone upon, particularly since the health premiums had been raised only two years before?

Hon. Mr. McKeough: Specific discussions, yes.

Mr. Cassidy: Supplementary: Can the minister say what was told to his ministry by the Ministry of Health at the time and whether that advice was taken into account in any way or whether in fact the ministry or the Treasurer decided, by calculations on a sheet of paper or on the back of an envelope, that this was the best way to raise $270 million without having to bring legislation before the Legislature?

Hon. Mr. McKeough: As I have indicated, these are thought processes, discussions which go on over a 12-month period. I am not going to pin them down to a month or two days or six weeks. This process goes on continually.

Mr. Wildman: That’s got nothing to do with the original question.

Mr. di Santo: Answer the question.

Hon. Mr. McKeough: Was I aware of the specific reaction of the Minister of Health to some parts of the Taylor committee report? No.

HYDRO EXPANSION PROGRAM

Mr. S. Smith: Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Energy. Does the minister recall our discussion in this House on February 22 of this year when he informed the House at that time that he was awaiting Ontario Hydro’s detailed report on their new load forecast? I trust the minister has now received this report. Can he at this time report to us on the details of Hydro’s studies and what the implications are, as far as the minister is concerned, for further study within the House and for the scheduling of the various capital facilities that are planned at present?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: Mr. Speaker, it’s quite correct that I did promise this House in February to report back when we had received the report from Hydro and its recommendations. That has now taken place and I intend to table a report to this House on Monday next.

Mr. S. Smith: By way of supplementary, can the minister tell us whether he received a letter that was referred to in a Toronto Star article, a letter from chairman Taylor of Hydro, whether he will be willing to share with this House the contents of that letter and whether he feels he is in a position to do so? Can he tell us whether it is true that Hydro basically has put the entire matter of the expansion program back into the lap of the government? If so, will he allow the select committee to make that particular decision?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: I don’t intend, Mr. Speaker -- and I hope this is appropriate -- to respond to any specific aspect of the report that I plan to table in total next Monday. At that time, I think all these questions or a good many of them will be answered.

Mr. Wildman: Supplementary: Since the minister has assured the House that the priority projects of Hydro will not be removed from the terms of reference of the Porter commission, can he also assure us that whichever ones with which the government decides to go ahead will be subject to environmental assessment?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: As I indicated some weeks ago, the priorities will remain where they are at the present time. And, of course, any action taken by Hydro or by this government which comes under the Environmental Assessment Act obviously will be covered by it. We don’t intend to proceed in any kind of irregular or illegal manner.

Mr. J. Reed: Supplementary: Do I take it from the minister’s answer that he is not going to follow through, as he had indicated to the House at an earlier date, and apply the effect of the load forecast to consideration of whether the Darlington nuclear plant would come under the aegis of the Environmental Assessment Act? In other words, is he copping out now or is he going to use that new load forecast in the way he had said?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: Again, that is a question that I think will become apparent when I table the report next Monday.

Mr. MacDonald: Supplementary: In view of the fact that the report of the first select committee on Hydro spelled out circumstances under which, with a drop in forecast, there could be some reconsideration of the expansion of Hydro -- and that drop in forecast has now been vindicated by events -- and since the committee was re-established to monitor what Hydro has done and what the government has done with regard to its earlier recommendations, does the minister not feel it is appropriate that the committee should have an opportunity to reveal this whole situation before it is presented as a fait accompli by Hydro and/or the government?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: Again, I think the answer to that question would become more apparent when I table the report next Monday.

Mr. MacDonald: Well, I may remind the minister then.

Mr. Kerrio: The minister is as devious as his answer. He doesn’t know any more than that.

AUTO INDUSTRY

Mr. Cassidy: I have a question of the Premier: In view of his comment last week that he would be holding more meetings with the automobile industry and in view of the fact that he has met this morning, I believe, with the president of Ford Motor Company of Canada, can the Premier now say what consequences his meetings may produce in terms of ensuring a better balance of employment and of investment in the automobile industry in order that wet get a fair share of jobs and production here in Canada, and particularly in Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, I said to the leader of the New Democratic Party last week, when he asked me this same question about meetings with automotive companies, and I did meet this morning at noon -- with Ford of Canada. The meeting concluded around 1:10. There is a fair amount of information that we will be digesting, if I can use that terminology, and it is my expectation that we will present to the House, not in any voluminous form, some reactions to the meetings we have held with the companies.

We have also scheduled another meeting with the UAW, as I recall; not as it relates to the total industry, I think this has specific application to American Motors. Whatever discussions are held, if there’s anything new there, I’m anxious to have that included. And I believe we are yet to have a meeting with the parts people as well.

As soon as these are concluded, I will share with the House what it is that we have ascertained, and I think we will have an opportunity to discuss it then. It’s still a few days away before I’ll be in a position to do that.

Mr. Cassidy: Supplementary, Mr.

Speaker: Can the Premier say whether he is being a paper tiger in talking with the automobile companies, or whether he is putting any real strong and effective pressure upon them to ensure a better balance of production and jobs here in this province, particularly in view of the fact that after the meeting with Chrysler Canada last week the Premier, who had refused to comment in the House, commented to the Windsor Star -- to the papers in Windsor -- that he was satisfied with the assurances that they had given about the maintenance of 750 jobs that were disappearing at the Tecumseh Road plant and disregarded the fact that those assurances from Chrysler Canada were based on the assumptions both that the automobile industry sales remain strong and that the van production would be strong enough to absorb 350 workers?

Is the Premier, in fact, accepting these assurances without any criticism from the companies or is he pressing them toughly?

Hon. Mr. Davis: I have never been able to define a paper tiger. If the leader of the New Democratic Party is asking if I have approached them in the same way he might approach them, I think my answer to that question would probably be no.

Mr. Lewis: Alas, alas.

Mr. Kerrio: And the Premier would have the scars to prove it.

Hon. Mr. Davis: I would think if one were to ask in the longer term whether his approach or mine might be more productive on so many issues, I would have to say with no prejudice whatsoever, that I prefer the approach which I take.

Mr. Martel: It looks that way in the mining industry.

Hon. Mr. Davis: If he is suggesting, did I browbeat the companies, did I use a lot of strong, abusive, unthoughtful language --

Mr. Warner: Or did you cave in?

Mr. Martel: Just give the facts. Did you bow and scrape?

Hon. Mr. Davis: -- as he might do, I’d have to confess to him that I didn’t. I am in the process of discussing with the companies, along with my colleagues, both the present situation and particularly the potential future investment. I know that it will be hard for the leader of the New Democratic Party to understand, but you don’t necessarily produce this new investment by threatening people, by browbeating them.

Mr. Lewis: Why are your trousers fraying at the knees?

Hon. Mr. Davis: I’ve got to tell you that unlike the former leader, I never take that much notice of my trousers.

Mr. Breaugh: Or your knees.

[2:30]

Hon. Mr. Davis: I don’t notice any frayed portions. The cuffs may be a little short or something of that kind. As I say I have never been as conscious of my wearing apparel as he is. In fact, I look at him today and I say to myself how conscious he is.

Mr. Lewis: I am telling the Premier, he is fraying.

Hon. B. Stephenson: The only thing that is frayed around here, Stephen, is your tongue, from overuse.

Hon. Mr. Davis: It must relate back to our great debate.

Mr. Speaker: This is just as much out of order as the interjection.

Hon. Mr. Davis: That is right, Mr. Speaker. I think I should have equal time. I think the former leader of the NDP has been concerned about attire ever since the debate we had when his suit didn’t arrive pressed from the cleaners in time for that momentous occasion.

Mr. Lewis: I have always been a clothes-horse.

Mr. Sargent: He’s got two suits now.

Hon. Mr. Davis: However, in answer to the question, I will share with the House the information that we have been obtaining. I think really it would be more meaningful if we were to discuss it when we make a statement of that nature.

Mr. B. Newman: A supplementary question for the Premier. Did Chrysler give the government any assurance concerning the 400 employees who would not be taken back? I understand the first 350 possibly were going into the panel truck plant and the other 400 were being laid off without any definite date of recall.

Hon. Mr. Davis: I’m not yet an expert in this field and I don’t suppose I will ever become one, but my impression --

Interjections.

Hon. Mr. Davis: At least I admit I’m not an expert, unlike the member for London Centre (Mr. Peterson) who thinks he is. If the member were honest with all of us, he would admit he’s not. He would admit he is --

Interjection.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Listen, my predecessor advised me always to be humble. That is something the member might undertake to consider himself on occasion.

Mr. S. Smith: The Premier has a lot to be humble about.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Oh, I know. The Leader of the Opposition says I have a lot to be humble about. That’s really just borrowing from Winston Churchill -- and he said it ever so much better -- and it had much greater application.

Hon. Mr. Grossman: He is turning over in his grave right now.

Mr. Martel: And you have frayed knees.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, this is all totally out of order. What was the question. I’ll get back to the question.

Part of this does relate -- I think it’s fair to state, and the member for Windsor-Walkerville would know this full well -- to the market for the product of that company and its share of the market.

When I was quoted by the Windsor Star I think I conveyed to them that I was confident that, market conditions being equal, the company had every intention of rehiring the people who had been laid off because of this decision. I have no reason to disbelieve the company when they say that the economy being relatively healthy, Chrysler Canada having its share of whatever the automotive market is, they are confident the employment picture as it relates to their employees in Windsor will be resolved.

But I confess to the hon. member, they couldn’t guarantee me, nor could I guarantee him the extent of the market in 1979, nor can I guarantee to him the extent of Chrysler’s portion of that market. I can only assume he is doing his best -- that he drives a Chrysler product as I do.

Mr. B. Newman: Two of them. I can only drive one.

Mr. Cooke: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary for the Premier. In view of the fact UAW officials from Windsor met with the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce in Ottawa yesterday and he said that the basic problem is a provincial problem, and in view of the fact that when the UAW people met with the provincial authorities they said it was a federal problem, would the Premier undertake to meet with the federal officials so that the buck-passing would stop? Maybe the provincial Conservatives would accept the blame or maybe he federal Liberals, but let’s quit passing the buck.

Hon. Mr. Davis: One thing about it, the hon. member himself will never be in a position to accept any of the blame. We understand that, we accept that, that is one of the --

Mr. Foulds: Deal with the question. Just be a little humble.

Hon. Mr. Davis: I am. There is nothing wrong with being humble and accurate at the same time.

Mr. Foulds: The Premier is neither.

Mr. Cassidy: The Premier took his self-righteous pills this morning.

Hon. Mr. Davis: No, as a matter of fact, I didn’t take any self-righteousness pills, if that is the supplementary question. I took a little vitamin E and I took a little vitamin C in the form of apple juice.

Mr. Peterson: And a little Geritol.

Hon. Mr. Davis: To answer the question, Mr. Speaker, if I’m not interrupted any further, I don’t know what went on in the discussions yesterday in Ottawa.

Mr. Peterson: Geez, you are loose today.

PUBLIC SERVICE BARGAINING

Mr. Cassidy: I have a second question, Mr. Speaker. This is to the Chairman of Management Board. I’d like to ask a question arising out of his statement in the Legislature this afternoon and the implications that the Ontario government is going part way down the route of the federal government’s lead in imposing restrictions on public servants with Bill C-28.

I’d like the minister to explain the reference to the “obvious importance of the arbitration process in the coming period,” and to tell this House whether that means that the government intends to offer so little in the bargaining process with its public servants over the coming months that it will, therefore, force a very substantial number of agreements into the arbitration process?

Hon. Mr. Auld: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member and all members of this House are aware that under the Crown Employees’ Collective Bargaining Act if we don’t reach agreements the impasse goes to a board of arbitration.

I said very clearly in the statement that we don’t propose to impose guidelines on arbitrators. But I refer the hon. member to the budget statement which said that the increase in direct government operating costs, that is, other than transfer payments, was to be held and had been held at four per cent and that if wage increases were more than four per cent they would have to be met either by a reduction in other administrative costs or a reduction in staff. That’s the extent of any comment that I have to make.

Mr. Cassidy: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Does that mean that the government has therefore put a cap of four per cent or some lower figure on the offer that it is prepared to make to public servants, and how can it do that if it intends to bargain in good faith with the government employees?

Hon. Mr. Auld: The answer to the first question is no, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Cassidy: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: The implication of the statement, Mr. Speaker, was yes and that’s why we’re confused on this side of the House by what the minister has got to say.

Mr. Kerrio: That’s nothing new.

Hon. B. Stephenson: The member didn’t listen and he can’t read.

Hon. Mr. Davis: The former leader isn’t confused at all.

Mr. Cassidy: Are the instructions to arbitrators which are contained in this particular statement in the House today not a form of interference in the arbitration process? And should arbitrators, in fact, not be allowed to exercise their independent judgement rather than getting this kind of veiled threat of interference from the government if they don’t behave the way the government hopes they will?

Hon. B. Stephenson: Oh, veiled threat my foot.

Hon. Mr. Auld: Mr. Speaker, there are no instructions to arbitrators in that statement.

Mr. Martel: No, the minister considered legislation.

Mr. Cassidy: One final supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Would the minister not agree that when he says the government considered legislation and then says the government is going to rely on good sense from the arbitrators after telling them what the good sense would be, and that when the government talks about relating compensation to the level of total compensation of the private sector, which is in line with the federal restriction of compensation to the average level of comparable jobs in the private sector --

Mr. Sargent: The member is making a speech.

Mr. Cassidy: -- that these are specific instructions to arbitrators which have the effect of interfering with the independence of the arbitration process?

Hon. Mr. Auld: No, I don’t agree with that, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member is quite aware that any negotiation relates to the ability to pay. I have mentioned that. That is no instruction to anybody.

PSI MIND DEVELOPMENT INSTITUTE

Mr. Sweeney: I have a new question of the Minister of Health with respect to Psi mind benders once again. Is the minister aware that we have a new casualty here in Toronto? One Michael Topper was admitted to the Queen Street Psychiatric Hospital on the weekend after participating in the Inward Bound IV program of Psi, and given this further evidence, can he give us any specific statement us to what he intends to do about these people?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member knows, we have had the general question and that particular group under consideration and investigation for some time. I regret to say that at this point we have not reached a final determination. Basically, with respect to that particular group, the investigation is going on under the auspices of my colleague the Attorney General (Mr. McMurtry), who is not here today. The general question is still under consideration and that is generating a great deal of interest with certain people. I would hope that question could be resolved and a determination made one way or another on that in the next very short while.

Mr. Sweeney: Supplementary: Given that Psi is using the OPP report as a whitewash, would the minister be prepared to recommend to the Attorney General that a restraining order be put out until something more positive is decided with this group?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: I would want to defer that to my colleague, Mr. Speaker. Not being a lawyer, I don’t even know at this point how one goes about it and on what grounds one could obtain a restraining order. I guess to be fair and to follow the precepts of our judicial system, one should not use the investigation by the OPP to either support or attack that organization at this point in time, since the final determination has not been made as to whether as a result of that any legal action is possible.

Mr. Sweeney: Final supplementary: Is there any validity to the suggestion that either this ministry, or Consumer and Commercial Relations, or the Attorney General, has a specific plan to put forward another investigation?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: Is the member talking about a police investigation?

Mr. Sweeney: Any investigation.

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: This has been discussed. We are looking at the broader question rather than just that particular organization to see if there is any further action that is possible and desirable to try to come to grips with the problems of organizations which, for financial gain, are taking advantage of probably unsuspecting people and affecting their mental health.

Mr. Breaugh: Supplementary: Is the minister now prepared to make a statement to the House as to whether or not he intends to proceed with an inquiry of some sort, and give us some vague notion as to what the frame of reference of such an inquiry would be, into groups such as this one and perhaps others?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: No, Mr. Speaker, not at this time.

Mrs. Campbell: Supplementary: Is it possible for this minister to discuss with the Minister of Community and Social Services and those who are dealing with children’s cases in that ministry to try to ascertain the involvement of children in the Psi workings, whatever they are doing? I don’t know.

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: I think it would be reasonable to say that every minister who has anything to do with children’s services has a concern for some of the reports which have come to our attention of things which are being proposed to and inflicted on young people.

TAGGART SERVICE LIMITED

Mr. Philip: A question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications: Can the minister inform the House what action he has taken since March 28 when I brought to his attention the fact that the Ontario Highway Transport Board may be an accomplice in strike-breaking activities by allowing Taggart Service Limited to run on Jones Transport routes by way of a power of interchange authority, even though Jones is involved in a legal strike at this moment?

Hon. Mr. Snow: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I had intended to give an answer to this question later in the question period, although I had assured the representative who had contacted me from the Jones union that I would not do so without notifying him. He was notified today and as I see he’s in the gallery I would like to give the answer.

In reply to the question which was asked by the member for Etobicoke -- he has repeated the question again today so I will not read it out -- first of all, I contacted the Ontario Highway Transport Board and the enforcement staff within my ministry to get the full details on the licences of both Taggart and their subsidiary, Jones.

[2:15]

I have also asked the staff from my ministry to investigate the operations of Jones and Taggart since the legal strike began. Staff from the ministry have investigated the operations of Taggart and have reviewed a sample of 395 shipments by Taggart since February 20, when the legal strike of Jones Transport began. Out of those 395 shipments, 19 were delivered legally under Taggart’s class C authority from points such as Pembroke and others in eastern Ontario to points west of Toronto such as Welland and Hamilton.

Three hundred and seventy-six shipments destined to points served by Jones Transport were delivered legally to Toronto under Taggart’s class A authority, and then interlined with some 14 other shippers to such points as Guelph, Hamilton, Windsor, Burlington, Owen Sound et cetera. Jones Transport normally would have been used for this interlining had they not been on strike.

At no time has the power of interchange authority, which was referred to in the question, been used by Taggart to the knowledge of my investigators.

Mr. Philip: By way of supplementary, have the ministry’s investigations shown that, perhaps by coincidence, the application for the power of interchange came conveniently at the start of negotiations by Jones with its union? And is the minister at least prepared to advise the Ontario Highway Transport Board to examine very seriously the renewal of an application if it is made on the expiry date of May 1, 1978, to ensure that Taggart is not using its power of interchange to run over Jones’s lines during the strike?

Hon. Mr. Snow: As I think I indicated, we have not been able, through contacting the board or through my investigative staff, to find any case where this interchange authority has been used since the beginning of the strike. The authority was a temporary authority; it does expire, I believe, as the hon. member said, within the next few weeks. Whether there will be an application for renewal, I do not know. But, as I understand it, it is not being used at this time.

This interchange authority is only granted to sister companies or subsidiary companies to allow them to interchange power units during peak periods. It is a normal authority to be granted and, as I say, we have no indication at this time that that authority has been used for strike-breaking or has been abused in any way.

MUNICIPAL GRANTS

Mr. Bradley: I have a question for the Treasurer. Is the minister aware that a change in the payment scheduled for provincial grants to the regional municipality of Niagara will cost the property taxpayers of the Niagara region in excess of $40,000 in interest payments since, according to the regional finance director, the region will be forced to borrow the equivalent per capita grant for 23 days and the police grant for 47 days? If he is aware of this, would he undertake to advance the date of payment of those grants?

Hon. Mr. McKeough: I am not specifically aware of this case. I will be glad to look into it and get back to the member.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Hon. Mr. Wells: Mr. Speaker, the answer to that is no.

Mr. Warner: Supplementary: I think we deserve some explanation. Does the minister not realize that there are at least 500 teachers in Metro Toronto who could be fired as the combined result of declining enrolment and the government’s decreased funding of education, and that since the government has repeatedly said that the individual educational needs of students should be met, isn’t the present situation a golden opportunity for the minister to meet previously stated educational objectives? Or is he also knuckling under to the Treasurer’s obsession to balance the budget at any cost, including a lower standard of education in this province?

Hon. Mr. Wells: Mr. Speaker, I don’t think my friend is demonstrating a complete understanding of the situation.

Mr. Cassidy: You certainly aren’t.

Hon. Mr. Wells: The situation at Riverdale Collegiate, of course, is that Riverdale operates under the Toronto Board of Education and the Metropolitan Toronto School Board. There is a contract negotiated and pupil-teacher ratios, class size -- all these kinds of working conditions -- are part of the negotiated agreement. Metro has an allocation formula for allocating money to the Toronto board which contains certain staffing requirements. All of these provisions tie in together and the application of these provisions, along with any decline in enrolment, sets the number of teachers that each school will have.

That’s precisely the process that’s been in effect in both Toronto and, I understand, North York. It all grows out of the negotiated agreement and the various set-ups in the Metropolitan Toronto School Board vis-à-vis the local boards. Therefore, I think everyone knows what the situation is going to be and the question is whether people are willing to break what has been a negotiated agreement in order to enrich the agreement; and is there money for it? I’ve never heard it suggested anywhere that the reason why any of these teachers are not going to be needed next year is because of the provincial government. It’s because of declining enrolment -- purely and simply.

Mrs. Campbell: Supplementary: In view of the answer and with reference to Riverdale, could the minister explain to this House whether the same answer is applicable to Brown Elementary School, which we are advised will be closing?

Mr. Lewis: Brown?

Hon. Mr. Wells: I would say to my friend I have never heard anyone indicate to me that Brown School is closing. Does she mean Brown Elementary School on Avenue Road which was rebuilt by the Toronto board a few years ago?

Mrs. Campbell: Yes, sir.

Mr. Lewis: Closing?

Hon. Mr. Wells: I would certainly hope that Brown Elementary School is not contemplating for closing after all the controversy that surrounded its rebuilding, as she knows, and the great necessity for it to be rebuilt. I have not heard it suggested that it be closed.

Mr. Lewis: It has a good French immersion program, too.

Hon. Mr. Wells: -- and I would be very surprised. I’ve been communicating with Dan Leckie, the chairman of the Toronto Board of Education, who’s been indicating to me the kinds of procedures the Toronto board wishes to carry out for certain schools that may arrive at the point where closing should perhaps be considered. They certainly want to have a full community involvement process take place. But I have heard nothing about Brown Elementary School.

Ms. Gigantes: Supplementary: Is the minister seriously suggesting that he has never heard teachers’ groups or boards complaining to this minister that a decrease in provincial funding for the total cost of education in this province from a level of 61 per cent in 1975 to a current 53 per cent is causing part of the problems in terms of cutting back school programs and a dropping off of teachers? Is he suggesting he’s never heard that before? Where’s he been?

Hon. Mr. Wells: No, I’ve heard that explained and put to me by teachers’ federations, but it’s been more in the --

Ms. Gigantes: And boards.

Hon. Mr. Wells: Wait a minute; listen to the answer. It’s been more in the context of the share that the provincial government would pay. In other words, they don’t want us to pay --

Mr. Foulds: That’s exactly what she’s asking about.

Mr. Warner: Toronto doesn’t get any, not a penny.

Hon. Mr. Wells: -- more money and the local share to remain the same in order that more staff and lower pupil-teacher ratios will result.

Ms. Gigantes: Your share is going down and you know it.

Hon. Mr. Wells: All right But if our share is to increase --

Mr. Martel: It is supposed to be going up. You promised that several years ago. A great amount -- Bill promised it.

Hon. Mr. Wells: -- it means the local share will decrease, not that there will be services added to the schools.

Let me illustrate this for the hon. members so they will know. If we were to reduce class size on the average in this province from 26 to 25, one less for every elementary class in this province, it would cost between $30 million and $35 million. A reduction of two in class size would cost $60 million, $65 million or $70 million. That money would have to be found somewhere, either at the local level or from us.

Ms. Gigantes: Your share is going down.

Hon. Mr. Wells: The point that will have to be decided after the committee on declining enrolment reports is, which option do you wish to take? Do the public of this province want to pay more taxes, be they local taxes or provincial taxes, or do they want to make do, given declining enrolment, with the kind of system we have got and the kind of tax money we are now putting into education?

Mr. Lewis: Where did you get those figures? They’ve never been used before.

PUC CHAIRMEN

Mr. J. Reed: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Energy. Since only three regionalized areas to date have received new hydro-electric service Acts, could the minister tell us how many mayors who have been defeated at the polls are being allowed to continue to sit on public utilities commissions with the appropriate remuneration in the remaining regional governments where the representation on those commissions was frozen in the year that regional government was imposed?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: Mr. Speaker, as I am sure the hon. member opposite appreciates, that is not the kind of specific information that I have at my fingertips, but I shall provide the answer.

Mr. Epp: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Since that is the case, I wonder if the minister is of the opinion that these people should remain on the PUCs for an additional number of years if this legislation to change the PUCs to make them regionalized this year is not going to be introduced?

Hon. Mr. Baetz: I think the policy is to have the members of the commission either elected or appointed. I will certainly look into it to see if I can find the answer to the question that I think was raised opposite.

LEGISLATIVE BUILDING

Mr. MacDonald: I have a question of the Premier. During consideration of the estimates of the Ministry of Government Services the other night, the minister stated that while he approved of providing adequate space for the 125 members of the Legislature, he would not be willing to move to provide this building for that purpose until he personally was assured that adequate space was there.

My question to the Premier is this: Is that a statement of government policy? Does the minister have the support of the cabinet in that position? If so, how does the Premier reconcile that with the whole underlying thrust of the Camp commission which was to establish the independence of this Legislature under the direction of the Speaker and the Board of Internal Economy and to rescue it from the partisan whim of the government or any minister?

Mr. Havrot: Talk about partisanship!

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, I think the member for York South (Mr. MacDonald) got carried away a little bit --

Mr. Martel: No, he didn’t.

Mr. MacDonald: Read the Camp commission report.

Mr. McClellan: Answer the question -- just this one question. Give us a straight answer.

Hon. Mr. Davis: -- in his final observation that any sort of partisan whim would determine space allocation in this building. He knows that is not true. It would never be part of the thinking of this government.

Mr. MacDonald: You are twisting what I said.

Hon. Mr. Davis: When I look at some of the accommodation, I know of people who have larger offices in this building than the Premier of this province, and they are not necessarily on this side of the House.

Mr. MacDonald: Will you answer my question?

Hon. Mr. Davis: What was it?

Interjections.

Hon. Mr. Davis: No, I know what it was.

Mr. MacDonald: Well, why is the Premier wandering around verbally?

Hon. Mr. Davis: I really wasn’t wandering around, except that the last part of the hon. member’s question was somewhat provocative.

Mr. Martel: Even though it was true.

Hon. Mr. Davis: True?

Mr. Martel: Yes.

Hon. Mr. Davis: No.

Mr. MacDonald: The Premier is wandering again. Get to the question.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, as I recall, I received a communication from you, which we are in the process of responding to. I understand that you have also communicated to the other two caucuses with respect to the provision of office accommodation. I know this is certainly the single most important priority for the member for St. George. We certainly are giving it very real priority within cabinet and we will have a reply to you just as soon as we can. Hopefully we can resolve the matter in a very constructive and amicable fashion.

[3:00]

I do confess, Mr. Speaker, that I will be including in my reply to you that I think it is appropriate for the Premier, the Leader of the Opposition, the leader of the New Democratic Party, plus some others, to be within this main building. I hope there isn’t any strenuous objection on the part of the member for York South to that being part of our reply to the Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, we are replying to you and at that time there will be an opportunity to discuss it.

Mr. MacDonald: Would the Premier reply to my question? Is the present posture of the minister in stating that he will not make this building available until he personally is satisfied that there is enough space to meet the needs of 125 members -- is that government policy?

Hon. Mr. Davis: I am sure the member for York South would think, if he assessed that statement very carefully, the Minister of Government services was derelict in his responsibility if he didn’t determine, if the decision is to have all 125 members of the Legislature in this building, that there is sufficient physical space for them. In fact, I think the member for York South would be the first on his feet to complain if the Minister of Government Services weren’t assured that there was enough space. I wasn’t there, but I assume that is what the Minister of Government Services meant.

Mr. Nixon: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Would the Premier not realize that at least a major part of the solution lies more or less within his personal control? Would he authorize the removal of part of his own staff into the Whitney Block so that the members could have offices within the Legislative Building? He would, of course, keep a major part of his administrative group, but some of the third or fourth echelon speech writers could work over in the Whitney Block.

Interjections.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, some members opposite, in their very constructive criticisms of the Premier of this province, wonder whether in fact we have any speech writer, let alone three or four at the lower echelons.

Mr. T. P. Reid: You couldn’t do it all by yourself.

Hon. Mr. Davis: The truth of the matter is I think it is fairly obvious from my statements in the question period that I really don’t have a speech writer.

Interjection.

Hon. Mr. Davis: I would say that my answers are as relevant as are some questions.

Mr. T. P. Reid: But much longer.

Mr. Breithaupt: That’s the problem.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Tomorrow is the opening ball game. It is a much friendlier atmosphere today than a couple of days ago this week.

Mr. Foulds: Is Lorne Henderson your speech writer?

Hon. Mr. Davis: I am sure I’m like the hon. member when he was Leader of the Opposition. He didn’t divide his staff when he was in that position of responsibility saying, “You are at a lower echelon than you are.”

Mr. Breithaupt: How do you divide two people?

Hon. Mr. Davis: All my staff are equal. They are all of equal competence and importance to me. I certainly don’t think you would want me to discriminate against any of my staff by saying, “Some of you can be here and some of you can be there.” So I think the member would understand if I said no. I really think the staff of the Premier’s office and the cabinet office should remain within this building.

Mr. Nixon: It was the only area where there was the possibility of a solution.

Mr. Martel:

Article 43 of the provisional rules says “it is noted that the government will make known its position on the proposal that Mr. Speaker have jurisdiction over the full Legislative building following the presentation of the final report of the select committee.” In view of the fact that was tabled well over a year ago, doesn’t the Premier think it is time he stopped playing games with us and gave this Legislature an answer? Which his House leader undertook?

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, I don’t want the fact that I have not been completely serious in all of my answers to in any way indicate our lack of interest in the subject. I think the hon. member is sufficiently aware of what has been going on to make him think twice about suggesting that we weren’t interested in finding a solution.

Mr. Foulds: How long does it take?

Mr. Laughren: You are in no hurry.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Certain solutions have been suggested. We have not achieved unanimity, as I understand it. If we had, Mr. Speaker, I wouldn’t have had the letter I did from you. We are in the process of preparing a reply to that letter. I expect that hopefully we will have the matter resolved. I know how anxious the hon. member is to have a larger office, windows, curtains, snow-shoe broadloom --

Mr. Martel: I have windows. You are wrong again. I have two windows.

Mr. Cassidy: Desk, chairs.

Hon. Mr. Davis: -- television sets, and what have you.

Mr. Martel: I don’t want the same office that the Premier has. I just want a workable office. You have all those facilities. None of us have those trappings. Just you.

Hon. Mr. Davis: I know he doesn’t want the same office as I have. He will never have it. I know he still wants the president’s office at Inco or Denison He told me that in Sudbury, and I know it is true --

Mr. Speaker: The hon. member --

Hon. Mr. Davis: -- and I will try to get it for the member some day.

Mr. Martel: You have the trappings. I don’t want them.

Mr. Lewis: I am not sure this question period is an improvement over Tuesday’s.

RONDEAU PROVINCIAL PARK

Mr. McGuigan: My question is of the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development and I wish he would refer this to the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. F. S. Miller). With regard to Rondeau Provincial Park, in view of the fact that there is only one combined entrance and exit to the park and a congested commercial area outside of the gate, would the minister agree that this creates a very real problem to collect the 50 cents per day entrance fee from the residents of 350 leased cottages who are located in the park?

Would the minister also recognize that there are two churches and various sports clubs on the park grounds which draw citizens from outside the park? Would the minister consider perhaps a different annual vehicle permit and waive the 50 cent daily fee for certain entrants to the park, including the lessees and churchgoers and members of the sports club?

Hon. Mr. Brunelle: Mr. Speaker, I would like to take that question as notice and I will have the reply for the member in the near future.

MINIMUM WAGE

Ms. Bryden: I have a question of the Minister of Labour. Would the minister, in her ongoing studies of the minimum wage, include a study of the number of workers in liquor-serving establishments whose pay is at or near the minimum wage? In order to establish if the differential minimum wage for those workers is in fact discriminatory against women and therefore contrary to the Ontario Human Rights Code, as is alleged by the waitresses’ action committee, who have sent briefs to her on this subject, would she also include in the study what proportion of those workers are women?

Hon. B. Stephenson: Mr. Speaker, I am sure I don’t have to remind the hon. member that it is impossible that the concept of the minimum wage, which is universally applied to those individuals who are paid at that level, could be discriminatory. There may, in fact, be some employers who practise discriminatory practices and if that is happening then most certainly the employment standards branch of my ministry would be interested in knowing. It’s an interesting suggestion and I will most certainly take it into consideration in our studies.

Ms. Bryden: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Would the minister also study their allegation that a great number of waitresses perform set-up and clean-up services without any pay and that this is also a

section of the minimum wage legislation that should be looked into regarding them? I also question her argument that it is not discriminatory if the great majority of women are affected by this differential minimum wage.

Mr. Laughren: You should know that.

Hon. B. Stephenson: Well, Mr. Speaker, I am aware of the concern which was expressed by the Waitress Action League. They did, in fact communicate that specific concern about set-up and clean-up in their letter to me and that is a part of the investigation which the employment standards branch will be looking at. Whether indeed it will be a part of the study of the validity of the minimum wage as a social tool I would really be unprepared to say. It seems to me to be inappropriate in that area at this time.

Mr. Lupusella: You are always unprepared.

Hon. B. Stephenson: But I would repeat that the minimum wage is not a discriminatory action nor a discriminatory concept.

Mr. Laughren: It discriminates against anyone who receives it.

DURHAM REGISTRY OFFICE

Mr. McKessock: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations. In view of the announcement made this morning in the town of Durham that the government has decided to close the Durham registry office on September 30, 1978; and in view of the fact that the Ministry of Consumer and Commercial Relations’ official, Mr.

McCutcheon, admitted that there was no cost study done to determine the amount of the savings; and in view of the admission that they did not contact any of the area lawyers, surveyors, or municipalities to discuss the effects of the closure on all of the 30,000 people in the area it serves, would the minister agree to do nothing further on the closure until a complete public study has been done on the effects of the possible closure in the area it serves?

Hon. Mr. Grossman: No, there will be no further studies.

Mr. McKessock: A supplementary: In view of the fact that Durham is centrally located in the county of Grey and that the registry office in Arthur has just hired a new registrar, even though Arthur has over 1,000 fewer registries per year and $20,000 less intake per year than the registry office in Durham, does it not seem strange that the Durham office should be scheduled for closure with this in mind?

Hon. Mr. Grossman: No; we obviously make these decisions on the basis of where the business can be handled.

Mr. Kerrio: It could be handled anywhere where --

Hon. Mr. Grossman: As I think the member knows, the business out of Durham will be handled in the Owen Sound land registry office, which is very capable of handling the caseload. Indeed, it is clear that throughout Ontario there are instances in which registry offices are simply located close enough to each other that a point in time comes when one has to start to look at consolidation of these services.

The member knows that there will be essentially no loss -- not essentially; there will be no loss in jobs, no loss in employment; the people affected will be offered jobs in the Owen Sound office. He also knows that while admittedly some lawyers will have to travel a little greater distance to have access to the Owen Sound office, I think he would agree if the government is serious about saving money, consolidation of services and increased productivity, that this is a very good place to start.

Mr. Kerrio: Priorities you don’t have.

Mr. Speaker: Supplementary, the hon. member for Grey-Bruce.

Mr. Sargent: Mr. Speaker, may I tell little Caesar over there --

Hon. B. Stephenson: It takes one to know one.

Mr. Sargent: -- that Owen Sound doesn’t want to handle the business from Durham. They can handle their own affairs.

Hon. Mr. Kerr: They do.

Mr. Sargent: You are going too far in the regional decentralization of your powers. Leave us alone up there and mind your own business.

Mr. Martel: Did you get the question, Larry?

Mr. Speaker: I didn’t sense any question there.

Hon. Mr. Grossman: Unlike the member, I have a lot of faith in the people working in the Owen Sound registry office and I think they are capable of handling their own work from the Durham office.

Mr. Sargent: Sit down.

Hon. Mr. Grossman: Perhaps I think more of their abilities and capabilities than the member for Grey-Bruce.

Mr. McKessock: Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Hon. Mr. Kerr: There goes the whole registry office --

Hon. B. Stephenson: The whole thing is going to go to Durham.

Mr. Speaker: If we had an original question and three supplementaries on every registry office in the province --

Mr. McKessock: Is the minister aware how far it is from Mount Forest to Owen Sound? Owen Sound is right up against Georgian Bay.

Hon. Mr. Davis: What do you mean, right up against Georgian Bay?

Hon. B. Stephenson: It is also up against Eddie Sargent, and that’s worse.

Mr. McKessock: The minister stated there would be no further studies done.

An hon. member: Get your act together.

Mr. McKessock: Would the minister provide for me copies of the documents to show the cost-saving studies he has done and also supply to me a breakdown of the number of staff presently in each of the land registry and land title offices in Ontario?

Mr. Peterson: Off the top of your head.

Hon. Mr. Grossman: I would be happy to supply that information. Indeed, I think it was available last fall in my estimates and the total complement for the land registry system was available at that time as well.

Mr. Kerrio: It wasn’t important then.

Hon. Mr. Grossman: I should also point out for the other members of the House who aren’t as familiar with it as the member for Grey that the total complement in that registry office is three; three permanent and one contract. So there are only those four positions involved. I think the hon. member would agree -- certainly his party ought to agree -- that if we’re serious about cutting costs we have to begin to look at these types of offices.

Mr. McKessock: Three people.

Hon. Mr. Grossman: If we aren’t going to be able to deal with registry offices that have only three employees and a very small caseload, then we’re never going to be able to get serious about consolidation of services.

Mr. Nixon: Why do you always have to do it to Grey county?

Mr. Peterson: You should cut four of your cabinet.

MOBILE HOME PARKS

Mr. Foulds: I have a question for the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations: I wonder if the minister, along with his colleague, the Minister of Housing (Mr. Bennett), is aware of the practice in the Thunder Bay area where apparently there is collusion between the mobile home sellers and the owners of the mobile home parks that, even though there are spaces available in the mobile home parks, such spaces are not made available unless someone buys a new mobile home from one of the mobile home vendors in Thunder Bay? Could he investigate that situation to see if there is unethical business practice involved?

Hon. Mr. Grossman: I’d be happy to look into that for the member and report back.

Mr. Laughren: It’s been going on for years.

Mr. Foulds: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Could he, along with his colleague, the Minister of Housing, investigate the allegation that I believe has been made in the press in Thunder Bay today, that such spaces magically do become available if an unreceipted $2,000 is paid to the mobile home vendors? A lot also becomes available if a new home is bought from the vendor by the person seeking a lot, who also has to trade in his original or presently-owned mobile home.

[3:15]

Mr. Laughren: That’s tenant protection, Tory style.

Hon. Mr. Grossman: Yes, from some of the things the member has said laterally it sounds to me like there may be subject matter for some Criminal Code investigations rather than consumer business practice. However, we will be happy to look into it and if there is any part that violates our Business Practices Act or any consumer legislation we’ll take the appropriate action. As I said, I don’t know anything about it. Unlike the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. F. S. Miller), I don’t read the Thunder Bay press every morning. But we’ll investigate it.

Mr. Foulds: Neither does he, actually.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Oh, he does.

AERIAL SPRAYING

Mr. T. P. Reid: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Natural Resources.

An hon. member: Is it sensible?

Mr. T. P. Reid: They’re always sensible.

Mr. Kerrio: That will teach you to walk in here.

Mr. T. P. Reid: Could he share with the House his aerial spraying program for the forests of the province of Ontario? What chemicals will he be using to fight spruce budworm particularly in the province? Will he, in fact, be using a chemical that he has used in the past, fenitrothian, which has been banned in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia?

Hon. F. S. Miller: Mr. Speaker, I really can’t comment on the chemicals being used in that program. I’ve read a fair amount of detail on fenitrothian and if that’s the one that’s related to Reyes syndrome, or is alleged to be related to it, I would rather talk to my staff. I have seen some papers on this.

In Ontario we don’t have a great deal of balsam fir relative to the other types of trees. It was felt we would be better off not to spray at all on some of the areas. We tried some around Thunder Bay. I believe we had 10,000 acres one year of spruce budworm and 80,000 acres the year after we sprayed.

Mr. T. P. Reid: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Mr. Warner: A point of privilege. The rules do specify that I should raise the matter immediately at the end of question period. I’m dissatisfied with an answer given earlier by the Minister of Education and wish to debate the matter later.

Hon. B. Stephenson: That’s too bad. We will get you a crying towel, David.

Mr. Speaker: That’s not really a point of privilege.

Mr. Warner: I am just trying to follow the rules, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. B. Newman: The member doesn’t even know the rules.

Mr. Eakins: The minister will be late getting home tonight.

[Later]

Ms. Gigantes: Mr. Speaker, I would like to serve notice under the standing orders that I was dissatisfied with the answer to my question by the Minister of Education and I seek to raise the issue tonight after the adjournment of regular business.

Mr. Speaker: Pursuant to standing order number 28, the member for Scarborough-Ellesmere and the member for Carleton East have given notice of their dissatisfaction with the answer to their question given by the Minister of Education concerning declining enrolment. It is my understanding that by unanimous agreement this will be dealt with next Tuesday night as opposed to this evening. Is that understood? So ordered.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

NIAGARA ESCARPMENT PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT AMENDMENT ACT

Mr. McKessock moved first reading of Bill 62,

An Act to amend the Niagara Escarpment Planning and Development Act.

Motion agreed to.

Mr. McKessock: The purpose of the bill is to reduce the size of the Niagara Escarpment planning area to include only those lands included in the scarp and in the scarp protection area described in the maps in

schedule A accompanying the preliminary proposals issued by the Niagara Escarpment Planning Commission on February 14, 1978.

The bill places the authority to issue development permits in the Niagara Escarpment Commission or a municipality as the minister may determine. The bill also provides that an appeal for a decision of the issuing body arising from an application for a development permit may be made to the Ontario Municipal Board.

In addition, the bill requires that upon application, a development permit shall be issued for any existing lots as of February 14, 1978, unless the government of Ontario gives notice that it intends to acquire that lot at its fair market value within one year of the date upon which the application was made.

ONTARIO OFFICIAL LANGUAGES ACT

Mr. Samis moved first reading of Bill 63,

An Act respecting the Official Languages of Ontario.

Motion agreed to.

Mr. Samis: Mr. Speaker, this is identical to the bill introduced in the last session and the purpose of the bill is to make the French language an official language in the province of Ontario.

ANSWERS TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS

Hon. Mr. Grossman: Mr. Speaker, before the orders of the day and in the absence of Mr. Welch, I wish to table the answers to questions 20, 23 and 24 standing on the notice paper.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

PRIVATE MEMBERS’ BUSINESS

WORKMEN’S COMPENSATION AMENDMENT ACT

Mr. Laughren moved second reading of Bill 46,

An Act to amend the Workmen’s Compensation Act.

Mr. Speaker: The hon. member for Nickel Belt for up to 20 minutes, or he may reserve any portion of it for a windup.

Mr. Laughren: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I shall attempt to reserve a portion of my remarks to wrap up the debate when other members have had a chance to speak.

This bill is very direct, very straightforward and it accomplishes three basic things. First of all, it increases and indexes the level of benefits for injured workers and their dependents. Second, it establishes a new way of computing the maximum earnings on which the level of compensation is paid. Third, it increases the level of benefits to dependents and establishes a five-year period before the level of benefits is reduced.

This bill is absolutely necessary. It’s critically necessary at this time, primarily because of the inexcusable, deliberate and if I might dare say it, malicious delay on the part of this government in bringing in any increases for injured workers since July 1975. It is simply unacceptable for almost a three-year period for injured workers to pay a price that the rest of us simply would not pay, and the Minister of Labour is imposing that burden on injured workers in the province of Ontario.

I did some checking on what’s happened to the dollar since that time -- and I know that my colleague from Dovercourt (Mr. Lupusella) is going to talk about this as well -- and I looked at the purchasing power of the Workmen’s Compensation Board dollar since 1961. The purchasing power of the WCB dollar --

Hon. B. Stephenson: Is that different from some other kind of dollar?

Mr. Laughren: Yes, as a matter of fact, it is. Let me tell the minister why.

Hon. B. Stephenson: Non-taxable. Non- taxable.

Mr. Lupusella: Why doesn’t the minister just be quiet and listen for a change?

Mr. Germa: It’s only a 75-cent dollar to begin with.

Mr. Laughren: Even if we assume the WCB dollar was worth $1 when it started out, even if we start with the assumption that in 1969 it was worth $1, since then there have been some increases. I have taken into consideration the consumer price index deflator that Statistics Canada works with. I have taken into consideration the increases in the level of pensions, the legislated increases, since then. And the value of the WCB dollar, the purchasing power of the dollar, has gone down in the following manner from 1961 and in each succeeding year.

Starting at $1 in 1961, and I’ll round these off to even cents, it was worth 98 cents, the next year, then 97, then 95, 93, 89, 86, 83, 79, 77, 75, 71, 66 cents. In 1974 there was an increase and it bumped up to 77 cents. There was a 10 per cent increase in July 1975, and it jumped up to 77 cents and dropped down to 72. In 1977 it was worth less than 67 cents, a little over 66 cents, and now it is even lower.

That is what has happened to the WCB dollar, which is considerably less than anybody else’s dollar because other people have had increases in their level of income, the injured workers of this province have not. We cannot ask the injured workers of this province to pay a price we would not pay. It is very strange that the Minister of Labour in a Conservative government would contradict the whole theory of what the work ethic is all about and penalize people who get injured as a result of being in the work force.

It’s true. What you are doing is penalizing people who get injured.

Hon. B. Stephenson: Your logic escapes me, totally.

Mr. Laughren: My logic escapes you?

Hon. B. Stephenson: You don’t have any logic.

Mr. Laughren: The injured workers are being asked to pay a price that the minister and I do not have to pay. Namely, we have negotiated increases in our incomes.

Hon. B. Stephenson: That’s not what you just said.

Mr. Laughren: That is what I said.

Hon. B. Stephenson: No, it isn’t. Read it again.

Mr. Laughren: Since 1969 the injured workers of this province have paid a price in a devalued dollar that the rest of us have not paid, because the rest of us have had negotiated increases, one way or another, in our incomes. The injured workers have had such small increases in 1974 and 1975 that the value of their purchasing dollar has gone from $1 down to somewhere around 65 cents at this point. Those are statistically correct figures and the minister simply cannot deny that.

I know why it happened. There is a tremendous lobby in effect in this province, and the minister has caved in to it as no previous Minister of Labour has, in my recollection.

Mr. McClellan: That’s right. Dead on.

Mr. Martel: Sure, they talk to us too, you know.

Mr. Laughren: We see it in the occupational health field, and we see it in the workmen’s compensation field as well. The argument always used is if you increase the assessment on employers you will increase their costs and they will become less competitive. That’s the argument used; that’s the argument the minister has bought holus-bolus from the employers of this province, rather than taking the view that the best way to lower the assessment of compensation on employers is to have a lower accident rate. As a matter of fact, even that is not happening.

The statistics I have show the number of claims for lost time for 10,000 workers in this province has gone up steadily, using the same years, 1961 to 1976. In 1961, the number of claims for lost time, not just claims for medical aid and so forth, has gone up from 319 per 10,000 workers in 1961, to 445 claims per 10,000 workers in 1976. That information was received from the Workmen’s Compensation Board.

It is not as though things were getting better and workers were just getting more out of the system. It’s a case of more and more lost-time accidents in the province for the number of workers. That’s why the assessment is going up. You simply cannot ask the injured workers in this province to pay that price. You cannot ask them to absorb the increased cost of increased injuries. That’s not right.

[3:30]

This bill would, in September of each year, automatically implement a review process. That review would be in the following manner: If 10 per cent of the people who claim compensation earned in excess of the maximum wage rate on which compensation is computed -- for example, $15,000 under the present system -- if it jumped to more than 10 per cent of the workers in that category then by January 1 the maximum would increase in increments of $1,000. So if it jumped to 11 per cent, we would make the necessary adjustment to ensure that it dropped below 10 per cent and the maximum would then be $16,000 or $17,000, whatever the case may be.

It’s a form of indexing and it’s appropriately charged to the number of workers who get injured in any given year. That’s what’s important. If high-income workers are the ones who are getting injured -- bonus miners, people in construction, high-steel riggers -- then surely it’s most appropriate that they be compensated in like kind when they do get injured. It’s not right that they be penalized.

The other thing this bill does is adjust the level of benefits which workers receive twice yearly, on January 1 and on July 1. We believe the proper index base is the average industrial wage for Ontario during the previous six months, as shown by the industrial composite average weekly wage and salary for Ontario. That, of course, is computed and published by Statistics Canada. We believe the first adjustment -- and this is built into and stated specifically in the bill -- should go back to July 1, 1975, which was the date of the latest increase.

I know the minister will claim there’s a study going on to determine what the level of increase should be, but we’ve been hearing that for a year now and that’s simply not good enough. It’s not right that injured workers should receive a benefit at the whim of the Minister of Labour and of this Legislature. That’s not right. The way it is now, the Act must be amended every time there is an increase in the level of benefits.

There are too many things that can interfere with justice. There are too many obstacles in the way of justice under this system. Mr. Speaker, you can have the whims and the caprices and even the prejudices of a Minister of Labour who sees that the interests of the employer should come first. Things like the timing of elections, the pressures of work and the order of business in this Legislature should not be allowed to abort justice for injured workers. That simply should not be allowed. This amendment makes increases automatic, as does the

section dealing with the ceiling of benefits.

Another important part of this bill deals with benefits to dependents when an injured worker dies as a result of an injury or an illness. At the present time, and I’m sure the minister is aware of this, the level of benefits for a widow, for example, is $286 a month. That borders on the criminal, and bears no relationship to the lifestyle of the family before death. It’s a mean and stingy level of benefits for dependants. This bill would raise the level of benefits to $400 a month for the spouse and $100 for each dependant under the age of 18 years.

We believe when a worker dies and leaves a family, the social dislocation, economic insecurity and emotional burden is a big enough price to pay. As a matter of fact, it’s too big, and to compound the problem with the existing policy of this government is simply immoral. And I’ll tell you something; Mr. Speaker, it speaks volumes about the social policies of this government.

The members will recall that when the Throne Speech was brought down earlier this year there was a statement in it about the interest of this government in strengthening family ties, strengthening the family unit in this province. There is nothing more destructive to the family unit than the policies of the Workmen’s Compensation Board in this province, and the Minister of Labour must bear responsibility for that.

I don’t know how she can sit there with this kind of policy for the dependants of workers who die and listen to a Speech from the Throne that says the government is interested in strengthening the family unit in the province of Ontario. It is contradictory and the board, through the Minister of Labour, perpetuates a system that is destructive of family unity.

The bill recognizes the importance of encouraging dependants to become integrated back into society and into the work place. On the other hand, we think that there needs to be time to do that, which is why there is a

section in this bill requiring the board to continue paying a level of benefits to dependants as though the worker were still alive; the same level of benefits that they were receiving before the death of the worker for a period of five years, assuming that the dependant’s benefit would not be greater than the level that the worker was receiving when he or she was alive.

We believe that this is a very important part of the bill because it allows time for the dependant, the spouse, to take any upgrading courses they may want to take, to go back to school perhaps, to allow the children to reach an age where babysitting arrangements can be made much more easily. We think that all in all that is a good part of the bill, a very constructive part of the bill.

At the same time, not only does it improve benefits for the dependants but has an encouragement in it to integrate people back into the work force, back into society. There is a real incentive there. It gives them time to do it. We believe that that is a very humane and a very practical way of going about it.

There is a different lifestyle, and we have seen our share of these problems in the Sudbury basin, where a young miner with a young family, is killed, and it places an enormous burden upon the family. This would allow that family time to collect itself, to arrange a different kind of lifestyle while all the time aiming to get back into the work force and become integrated again. The present arrangement is simply unacceptable.

Finally, we in this party do not pretend that Bill 46 is going to solve all the problems of the Workmen’s Compensation Board. As a matter of fact some of the problems of the board could not possibly be solved with legislation; we know that. That was evident when the Compensation Board appeared before the standing committee of this House a month or so ago. I have never seen a servant of the province of Ontario behave in the way the chairman of the Workmen’s Compensation Board did on the day that he appeared before the standing committee.

He was blatantly and offensively partisan. The minister was part and party to it. There was even one attempt to deny that the chairman of the board had said something to my colleague from Scarborough-Ellesmere (Mr. Warner) when some of us clearly heard him say it. He finally admitted he had said it. But we know we cannot legislate that; we know we cannot legislate the attitude of Mr. Starr, we do not have that power.

That is why we have no illusions that this bill, even if the government members support it -- which I very much hope they do -- will solve all the problems of the board, because there are not only very serious administrative problems but attitudinal problems of the board that must be resolved if there is going to be any justice at all for injured workers in the province.

The chairman of the board does not carry out all the adjudication with claims, he does not determine the level of benefits; nevertheless, I believe that he sets the tone at the Compensation Board, and that will be followed by people in the organization. The Minister of Labour unfortunately will not deal with that problem and appears to be a partner in the whole process of demeaning injured workers in the province of Ontario.

We know that a compassionate and properly motivated board would solve a lot of those administrative problems. Just a very simple matter such as giving the benefit of doubt to injured workers would go a long way to solving a lot of the problems we complain about every year when the board appears before the standing committee.

Surely it is not asking too much to give the benefit of doubt to injured workers. I was amazed when the minister or someone from the government side interjected at the beginning of my remarks that the dollar was tax free. I will tell the minister something: Right now workers receive a maximum of 75 per cent when they are totally disabled up to a maximum of $15,000 a year. I believe it should be 100 per cent tax free. Unlike the other system out there -- the tort system I believe they call it -- there is compensation for pain and suffering.

With the Workmen’s Compensation Act there is no compensation for pain and suffering. It seems to me a very humane, a very sensible way of making that up -- and God knows we don’t want to go to the tort system with compensation --

Hon. B. Stephenson: There are times when I wonder whether you do or not.

Mr. Laughren: Oh no, never. There is an alternative, but I’ll get to that in a moment.

But the one way of making up for the inability of the worker to obtain anything for pain and suffering would be to have a level of benefits that was 100 per cent and tax free. That is the way it should be. I believe there are some legal eagles in the chamber now. Is it not true that if there is a settlement for pain and suffering that the settlement is tax free? Is that correct?

Mr. Bolan: That is correct.

Mr. Laughren: Oh well, the lawyer from Nipissing knows. He has been on the defensive lots of times.

That’s a fact. So why do we not have the same principle under the Workmen’s Compensation Act?

Mr. Kerrio: There is usually some cause of negligence involved. It is not just open and shut the way you are talking -- It doesn’t make any sense at all.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order.

Mr. Laughren: We have just heard from the right wing rump of the Liberals.

Mr. Kerrio: Say it the way it is.

Mr. Laughren: We shall see where the Liberals stand on this.

Mr. McClellan: There is the voice of the contractors.

Mr. Laughren: Anyway, this amendment doesn’t solve the attitudinal problem, and it doesn’t solve another problem. I appreciate that. It is not a cure-all. It doesn’t solve the problem of the adversary system we have in compensation in the province. We know that now it is the worker against the employer who is represented by the Compensation Board. We know that.

Hon. B. Stephenson: That is hogwash.

Mr. Laughren: It can be no other way when the board is totally funded by the employers of the province. You know it, and I know it, and every injured worker in the province understands it. That is why there is such suspicion of the board by injured workers all across this province. We think that that adversary system is fundamentally wrong.

As a matter of fact the chairman of the Compensation Board agrees with us. I almost reassessed my position when he agreed with me. He said, “Yes, you are right.” There needs to be a comprehensive social insurance system in Ontario such as they have in New Zealand. He said that is what we need here, so there is compensation paid to people regardless of where they are injured and irrespective of fault. It would be funded in a similar way; employers would pay their share -- individuals would pay their share --

Mr. Deputy Speaker: The hon. member’s time has expired.

Mr. Laughren: Mr. Speaker, I shall conclude. It is not enough to sit and wait for the minister’s self-serving committees to report to her. It is time to act now, and we can do that by approving this bill, and I look forward to the approval of all members of this chamber.

Hon. B. Stephenson: Mr. Speaker, in spite of the fact that it was my understanding that debate on second reading was debate on the principle of the bill, not designed as personal and slanderous attack upon public servants who most frequently cannot defend themselves --

Mr. Wildman: Is that parliamentary?

Mr. Laughren: Name one.

Hon. B. Stephenson: -- nor upon those individuals who work within an agency which has since 1916 served very well the working people of the province.

Mr. Laughren: Michael Starr has not served well.

Mr. McClellan: Not Michael Starr.

Mr. Wildman: Withdraw that word slander.

Hon. B. Stephenson: In spite of the somewhat vitriolic nature of the personal attacks of the hon. member for Nickel Belt -- slightly more restrained than he usually is, because he tends to write all of his letters and slather his tongue with vitriol on a daily basis --

Mr. Laughren: I was most restrained.

Mr. Lupusella: You should resign.

Hon. B. Stephenson: -- I should like to comment on Bill 46 as it is written.

Mr. Laughren: You are not being very nice.

Mr. Wildman: Boy, you are a nice person.

Hon. B. Stephenson: Mr. Speaker, the Act to amend the Workmen’s Compensation --

Mr. Wildman: Mr. Speaker, is that parliamentary?

Hon. B. Stephenson: Mr. Speaker, I haven’t used any language that wasn’t parliamentary, have I?

Mr. Wildman: You said slander.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Please disregard the interjections.

Hon. B. Stephenson: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I shall really do that. I am pleased to have your support on that position.

Mr. Laughren: Don’t be provocative.

[3:45]

Hon. B. Stephenson: Bill 46,

An Act to amend the Workmen’s Compensation Act, defeats the objectives of every party in this House in terms of providing service and assistance to injured workers in the province of Ontario.

Mr. McClellan: You don’t know anything about it.

Hon. B. Stephenson: We are very much aware that the third party has been pushing at every opportunity, for as long as I can remember --

Mr. Lupusella: Why don’t you do something about it?

Hon. B. Stephenson: -- the concept of a single universal income protection plan across the province. I would point out to the hon. members that they are now introducing a bill which would raise compensation benefits so high as to preclude the possibility of any kind of rational integration of that program with a universal protection program. They are defeating their purpose totally.

Mr. McClellan: Your concern is overwhelming.

Hon. B. Stephenson: The hon. member for Erie, (Mr. Haggerty) at a meeting debating or examining the report of the Workmen’s Compensation Board in 1977, introduced a resolution which was supported, I think, by all parties in the resources development committee.

Mr. McClellan: Not all parties.

Hon. B. Stephenson: Did the NDP not support it?

Mr. McClellan: They opposed it.

Hon. B. Stephenson: They did. I’m sorry, I didn’t realize that the third party had opposed this kind of rational action. The resolution imposed upon the government, it seemed to me, a duty which I had already begun to carry out, because I was in the process of finding the group to do this.

Mr. McClellan: Is that why you haven’t raised the rates? Tell us why you haven’t raised the rates.

Hon. B. Stephenson: That was to undertake detailed studies of the interrelationship between all income protection systems within this province, for workers and others, with the object of providing a total analysis of the requirements in this area and examining the improvements which could be made in workmen’s compensation. That study has taken longer, I will admit, than I had anticipated.

Mr. Lupusella: Why don’t you speed up the process?

Mr. McClellan: Is that why you didn’t raise the rates?

Hon. B. Stephenson: It was my anticipation, and it was the intent of the very reputable company carrying out the study, to have it ready by mid-summer of 1977. It has not been ready until this week and I now have a copy of the study which I propose to distribute to all members of the House as soon as I have sufficient copies.

Mr. McClellan: Why don’t you just raise the rates?

Hon. B. Stephenson: I have had very real concern about the rates for injured workers and their dependents and families.

Mr. McClellan: I bet you have. It has been three years.

Hon. B. Stephenson: We are attempting, and will be attempting in the very near future, to provide amendments to the Act which will ensure that an adequate income is provided for those individuals who require benefits from workmen’s compensation on the basis of the rational decisions which are made during adjudication by the board.

Mr. McClellan: Three years too late.

Hon. B. Stephenson: I fully intend to do this. It is no more a deliberate action on my part to delay this than it would be for me to say that I could take off to the moon right at this moment.

Mr. Wildman: If you really want to, we can arrange for you to be the first woman on the moon.

Hon. B. Stephenson: It is entirely responsible, it seems to me, to ensure that we have all of the information on the varieties of programs which might be introduced and on the way in which we can best serve the injured workers in this province through modifications of the existing system; and that is precisely what we have asked for. We have been given a number of alternatives as a result of the study, and as a result of that activity we will be able to provide some very rational improvements in the workmen’s compensation program.

Mr. McClellan: Tell us when; give us a date.

Hon. B. Stephenson: There are a couple of problems which I think the members of this House should be aware of. As most of the members of the House are aware, the expenditure by the Workmen’s Compensation Board in 1977 for medical aid, for pension benefits and for compensation benefits almost reached $400 million. The effect of this bill introduced by the hon. member for Nickel Belt would be to increase overnight the amount of money required for these services and these benefits to $1.4 billion.

I have difficulty even mentioning that amount of money. I’m sorry that I stumbled over it.

Mr. Wildman: You don’t have trouble when you give it to Inco or Falconbridge.

Hon. B. Stephenson: I think this is evidence of the total irresponsibility of the NDP, who consistently state in a holier-than-thou attitude that they are the only people who are concerned about the people of the province of Ontario, and particularly the working people.

Mr. Germa: Why do you hate working class people?

Hon. B. Stephenson: As you know and I know, Mr. Speaker, that is sheer and utter drivel.

Mr. Laughren: Prove it.

Hon. B. Stephenson: It has been sheer and utter drivel since the first day it was mouthed by the members of that party.

Mr. Laughren: That’s ludicrous.

Hon. B. Stephenson: The funding for the provision of this insurance -- or this compensation benefit, it is not an insurance --

Mr. Wildman: Come on, be contrite.

Hon. B. Stephenson: -- for this compensation benefit for the individual workers is the responsibility under our law of the employers of the province of Ontario. To burden them overnight with that kind of an increase would ensure totally that there would be almost no job opportunities left --

Mr. Laughren: Why haven’t you done it gradually then?

Hon. B. Stephenson: -- in the province of Ontario for the people of this province who would like to work.

I believe we are taking a responsible and a rational route to finding solutions to this problem, by legislation which will be introduced in this session of the Legislature, and indeed we shall try to do the very best thing possible for the injured workers.

Mr. McClellan: You’re a disgrace.

Hon. B. Stephenson: We will do it in their best interests, and not in the interests of political partisanship which seems to be the route which the NDP is most concerned about pursuing.

Mr. M. Davidson: Will you make it retroactive?

Hon. B. Stephenson: That is what we’re trying to do as a result of using the Wyatt report, and I am absolutely opposed to this premature and completely ill-conceived patchwork bill made up of components from various pieces of legislation -- stolen, I might say, from other jurisdictions --

Mr. Wildman: Stolen?

Mr. Laughren: Stolen?

Hon. B. Stephenson: -- including some parts of Saskatchewan legislation which, although it has been suggested, has not been, in fact, activated.

Mr. M. Davidson: How do you steal legislation?

Hon. B. Stephenson: The work which the government is doing in attempting to solve the problems of injured workers I think is the right route to follow. I think the members --

Mr. McClellan: Three years delay, that’s all you’ve done.

Mr. Lupusella: That’s nonsense, what you are saying.

Hon. B. Stephenson: The members of this House should support the kinds of amendments to the Workmen’s Compensation Act which this government will bring in during this session.

Mr. Wildman: That’s correct --

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order.

Hon. B. Stephenson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Laughren: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: What’s the point of order?

Mr. Laughren: I just wonder if the minister could clarify. Did she say she was going to support the bill?

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order.

Hon. B. Stephenson: Might I clarify it, Mr. Speaker? I think I said, loudly and clearly, that I was utterly and unequivocally opposed to the premature and ill-conceived concept of this bill. Do I have to spell it out any more clearly?

Mr.

Bolan: In spite of the assurance of the Minister of Labour that she will be introducing amendments to the Workmen’s Compensation Act which would bring into a better light and more into reality the position of the injured worker in this province today, I am going to support this bill for two reasons: Number one, I don’t know what will be the context of the Minister of Labour’s proposed amendments with respect to the Workmen’s Compensation Act; and number two, I believe there are certain sections in the bill introduced by the member for Nickel Belt which are of such great concern to the workers of the province of Ontario that every effort should be made immediately to implement, at least in part, certain provisions of this bill.

I notice, Mr. Speaker, the

short title of this Act is the Workmen’s Compensation Amendment Act. I would like to think of it in a better way, I would like to think a

short title of this Act to be

an act of humanity.

Mr. Laughren: Are you supporting it?

Mr. Bolan: Yes.

Mr. Laughren: Good.

Mr. Bolan: When you look at the way in which the worker in this province has been treated over the past number of years I think it’s only reasonable that at least, as I said before -- and I used the words “at least” and I’ll explain that in a minute -- at least certain provisions of this bill should be accepted.

I must confess the portion of the bill which deals with indexing gives me some problems, however these are not problems which cannot be resolved. In spite of the fact that the Minister of Labour unquestionably will troop out the 20 right guards or the 20 tin soldiers, who will stand up in what I consider to be mockery to this House and vote against even proceeding any further with the bill, I hope some of them will have the intestinal fortitude to stand up and to say yes, we support it, at least to get it to committee. At least, at that point in time, the bill could be debated clause by clause.

Mr. Laughren: I think the minister is wavering.

Hon. B. Stephenson: Hah.

Mr. Bolan: I am concerned about how an injured worker goes about getting an increase to the pension which he receives. Right now, if a person employed in the labour force, or a member of the Legislative Assembly or a civil servant is not getting what he feels is a just wage in relation to the economy of the country, there are certain mechanisms at his disposal to obtain raises. The employee who works in a factory, or whatever the case may be, does it through his union. The civil servant does it through another mechanism.

What is the mechanism for the injured worker? The only mechanism he has is the Legislative Assembly; that is the only thing at his disposal. For that reason, there should be periodic reviews of the size of pensions, so at least they are taken from below the poverty line, where many of them exist now and brought up to a more realistic standard of living.

Mr. Laughren: That’s the Tory government.

Mr. Bolan: In dealing with the bill clause by clause, I look at

section 1. The figure of $286 a month which a widow gets now, is shameful. For us to stand up in this House and ask for $400 a month --

Mr. Laughren: The minister gets that every day.

Mr. Bolan: -- really is not adding that much to it. How this situation was allowed to deteriorate to the point where a widow whose husband was killed in an accident is only receiving $400 a month is beyond me. I think it’s absolutely shameful and I hope that some measures will be taken to correct it.

As I said before, the one concern I had was with indexing, but that could be corrected in committee.

Certainly we’re concerned about costs, because if there is indexing, if this bill is accepted, all of the cost would be borne by the employer. Many of the employers in our society today are small businessmen who can ill afford any increase in costs of operation. However, the increase in benefits which they would be required to pay, together, hopefully, with the passage of the Occupational Health and Safety Act, would make it more incumbent upon the employer to create a safer place for the worker to work in, a result of which would be fewer accidents.

I would expect when this Occupational Health and Safety Act is passed the employer will realize it is to his benefit to make the workplace safer and that he will do so.

I would like to see the bill receive second reading today. I doubt if it will, because I’m sure --

Mr. Warner: The guillotine is over them.

Mr. Laughren: Talk to the member for Niagara Falls (Mr. Kerrio) about it.

Mr. Bolan: -- the group in the back is waiting to come in and stand up and block it.

Mr. Warner: There are 58 fish over there.

Mr. Bolan: In any event, Mr. Speaker, I, as an individual member of this party support the bill.

Mr. Mackenzie: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support Bill 46, moved by my colleague, the member for Nickel Belt. I really don’t think it should take a lot of discussion. The need for some of the changes that are in the bill should be apparent to all but the blind, and I find it unfortunate that half this House seems to be blind.

The need for changes and improvements in the Workmen’s Compensation Board’s procedures, amount of payments in pensions, the indexing, the level of bureaucratic competence, are obvious to all who have to deal with claimants and the board on a day-to-day basis. It’s underlined in a very personal way by the social and human tragedies I’m sure most members of this House get in terms of WCB cases in their constituency offices.

The broken individuals and broken families that result because of frustrations caused by the level of payments, the delays, the actions of the board, their very failure to deal in a humane way with workers already coping with injuries and varying degrees of disabilities, to me is just unconscionable.

It seems everybody is aware of the problem at the board except the Minister of Labour, and I’ve never quite been able to understand the hardlining I find from her and the chairman of the board on this particular issue.

[4:00]

The tragedy, as I see it, Mr. Speaker, is that an opposition party has to bring in such a bill in the first place. Surely progressive changes, indeed necessary and humane changes, the need for which is well established, should be the job of the Minister of Labour and of this government. And it’s not good enough to say that we have just got a report. I remind you that we haven’t seen any increase since July 1975, and there have been some real hardships worked on recipients of WCB pensions.

This bill does not try to cover all of the faults. Some main ones remain, including the need to raise the minimum pension to take care of injured workers of years ago covered under old wage rates that no longer have any relevance to their cost of living. That’s an overwhelming need that hasn’t yet been taken care of. There’s also the need to reform the bureaucratic procedures that cause delays and force proud workers and their families on to welfare. That has been one of the things that has bothered me more, I think, than anything else in this area.

Mr. Wildman: Let them eat cake.

Mr. Mackenzie: The legitimate case that can be made for contributions to UIC or CPP, or indeed to legitimate private or company pensions, to those workers on temporary or permanent time off through injuries so that their rights are not lost down the road at retirement time, is another area that certainly should be looked at. What we are trying to do in the bill in a minimum way is to point the way through a bill that would achieve some justice, from this point on in terms of indexing the payments and dealing with the dependants in a much fairer way.

The need for set dates to adjust compensation payments is underlined by this government’s unwillingness to adjust payments since July 1975. We have not been able to rely on the government or the Minister of Labour in terms of these people and their problems. I don’t have the confidence, unfortunately, in what they are going to do in the future and, therefore, there’s no other approach for us but to try to move such a bill and to give it the maximum publicity so that the public understands exactly what we are up against in the attitude of the Minister of Labour and the government of Ontario.

I rise to support the bill and hope all members of the House will support it. It’s just straight human justice.

Mr. Warner: Well said. Clean up that mess.

Mr. G. Taylor: Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak on this bill, Bill 46, introduced by the member for Nickel Belt (Mr. Laughren), who considers himself the only one in this House with a knowledge of the subject of workmen’s compensation.

Mr. Laughren: Not at all.

Mr. Warner: There are 31 others over here.

Mr. Mackenzie: If you have the knowledge, then you should be really ashamed at what’s happening.

Mr. G. Taylor: When we get down to this bill and we consider that the parties on the opposite side of the House are the only ones with any concern or care for the workers of this province --

Mr. Laughren: Nobody said that.

Mr. Wildman: Then show it, for heaven’s sake.

Mr. G. Taylor: -- they said 1975 was the last time there was an increase. We have had studies going on since then. The Minister of Labour has been concerned about it

Mr. Mackenzie: How do you live since then?

Mr. Wildman: Do studies put food on the table?

Mr. G. Taylor: The members on this side of the House have been concerned with the problem. We have made representations. We have studied it. We have considered it. We are all concerned about the problems of the workers --

Mr. Mackenzie: How many have died while you were considering it?

Mr. G. Taylor: -- but when I hear from the other side of the House that they have the only right, the supreme and sacred right --

Mr. Laughren: You’re setting up a straw man.

Mr. G. Taylor: -- that they have the only concern for the working people of Ontario --

Mr. Mackenzie: You had the opportunity and you didn’t take it.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The member for Hamilton East has had the floor.

Mr. G. Taylor: I think what they say is total bunk. They bring forth these rules and I hear them saying --

Mr. Mackenzie: The principle or the opportunity, what’s more important? You had the opportunity.

Mr. G. Taylor: The man from Nipissing says, “Oh, I only hope we don’t veto this bill on this side of the House.” They all support it. They can so wholeheartedly support it when they know, and they even hope, that we will veto it on this side so they immediately can run out and put forth their words of how that government is treading on the labour of this province.

Mr. Mackenzie: So you are going to stand up to kill the bill.

Mr. Wildman: What a lot of convoluted whining.

Mr. G. Taylor: They use this private member’s hour for their own personal benefit, for their political partisanships, to bring forth their ideas, saying, “We are the only party.” The man from Hamilton East just said that in those very words.

Mr. Mackenzie: Do something. You’ve got the opportunity. You’re the government.

Mr. G. Taylor: He said, “We are going to veto this bill and we will tell the world what we are doing for the workers but not the government side of the House.”

Mr. Warner: What are you doing to clean up the mess at the Workmen’s Compensation Board?

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order.

Mr. Mackenzie: Tell us what you are going to do. You’ve got the opportunity. You’re the government.

Mr. G. Taylor: Mr. Speaker, they continue to put forth these ideas that they are the only ones with the remedy for the workers of Ontario.

Mr. Ziemba: You’ve said that four times.

Mr. G. Taylor: They have been looked after --

Mr. Mackenzie: Why don’t you stop whining?

Mr. Wildman: A bunch of convoluted whiners.

Mr. G. Taylor: Mr. Speaker, the whines comes from the other side of the House -- whine, whine, whine.

Mr. Mackenzie: You’re the government. You’ve got the power. How do you answer that?

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order.

Mr. G. Taylor: They will immediately leave this House and say --

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Would the hon. member return to the bill?

Mr. G. Taylor: Mr. Speaker, the interjections are so heavy that one cannot ignore them. They are so worthless that one must put forward some tidbit so that you can hear the wallowing continuing on.

Mr. Mackenzie: Why don’t you answer why you haven’t done anything?

Mr. G. Taylor: But let’s look at something besides the partisanship they’ve thrown at us this afternoon with their bills, let’s look at what the bill might do.

We instituted a program in this province, with the Workmen’s Compensation Act, a bill that removed some of these workers from the horrendous problems of suing an employer by putting it forth on an insurance scheme and getting him out of that court situation, which the member brought forth that they wanted possibly to head back to. That would be a great increase in the problems of the workers.

Mr. Mackenzie: Haven’t you even thought of what you are talking about? It doesn’t say that at all.

Mr. Laughren: Read the bill.

Mr. Mackenzie: At least you should know what you are talking about.

Mr. Ziemba: Look at the paper.

Mr. Mackenzie: Why don’t you read it before you speak on it?

Mr. Acting Speaker: The member for Simcoe Centre will please continue and ignore the interjections.

Ms. Gigantes: How can he continue when he hasn’t got the bill?

Mr. Mackenzie: He hasn’t even read it.

Mr. Wildman: Someone has gone to get him a copy.

Mr. Acting Speaker: Could I ask the member for Hamilton East to await his turn to speak?

Mr. Wildman: Mr. Pope has gone to get the right bill.

Mr. G. Taylor: We look at the cost of this, and the Minister of Labour has put forth that cost. It’s all very well to put forth a bill saying how well we are going to treat the workers of the province of Ontario, but look at the cost of it. Look at the cost where we are. They’ve said, “Oh, they’ll bring up the competition.” Sure we’ll bring up the competition. We’re in competition with other areas that don’t have the same rates of workmen’s compensation; that don’t have workmen’s compensation. So when you want increased compensation, do you take that or do you take jobs? When you go back to your workers and ask what they want, it will be jobs and not increased compensation.

Mr. Mackenzie: You are sure not supplying that work.

Mr. G. Taylor: So why don’t they listen to their workers and put forth their ideas?

Mr. Mackenzie: Who is the government, who is the government?

Mr. Laughren: You are doing yourself in.

Mr. Mackenzie: Who is the government, who can move bills?

Mr. Laughren: Keep talking.

Mr. Ziemba: You chased the Minister of Labour out of the House.

Mr. G. Taylor: -- and not just put forth some inane bill saying, “Here we are looking after our workers.”

When we look at some of the specific provisions in here, they get a little irrational. They don’t even bring up some of the major subjects of the bill that should be in there. They just amend a bill without looking at its particularity, at what it will do. But that is consistent with their bills, with their private members’ bills --

Mr. Mackenzie: We learned from you that one small step is all you can ever hope for.

Mr. G. Taylor: -- with their legislation and with their policy. They just put forth a bill, thinking, “How can we put it forth in a partisan way, and what can we do on behalf of our people; what can we do --

Mr. Mackenzie: What is partisan about indexing payments and updating them?

Mr. G. Taylor: -- “and how partisan we can be.” Let’s just look at some of the heavy burden this might put on a small trade operation, the small businessmen in this province.

Mr. Mackenzie: Now the truth comes out; now we know where you stand.

Mr. G. Taylor: They are the ones who have to pay these bills; they are the ones who are assessed. It would mean a heavy increase in their cost, as the Minister of Labour has said; and the heavy increase --

Mr. Laughren: What about our accident rate?

Mr. G. Taylor: -- the $1.4 billion would be assessed on the employers’ backs. Are they going to get rid of the employee, then, to carry their burden? The small service industry, the small businessman who looks forward to working and paying his bills, will now be assessed a heavy burden for the cost of this workmen’s compensation increase that the member has put forward.

Ms. Gigantes: Have you ever gone through a workmen’s compensation case?

Mr. G. Taylor: Let’s look at the indexing. Unlike most plans, here they’ve gone into indexing twice a year. How good that will be; twice a year now we can index. Not even once a year like most plans, which have received criticism from all areas, critical denunciation on any indexing in plans.

Mr. Wildman: You would rather do it twice every 50 years.

Mr. Mackenzie: All the contracts are indexed every three months.

Mr G. Taylor: Here he puts forth a method of indexing twice a year. I think we are all in favour of increasing the benefits for the people of the province of Ontario, and it should be done --

Mr. Laughren: Will you support the bill?

Mr. G. Taylor: -- but not by putting forth, with no study, with no background, just putting forth --

Mr. Mackenzie: You want to wait another 10 years.

Mr. M. Davidson: Don’t be so foolish.

Mr. G. Taylor: -- a bill such as this member has brought forth. What are we doing but increasing the burdens of the employers and the employees in this province, and with no great success --

Mr. Mackenzie: Three years for a study, and we don’t have the results. That’s a long time to wait.

Mr. G. Taylor: -- to the individual, other than just their partisanship in putting forth a bill that they know is not worth its particularity, but is very good in the overall plan. The principle is ideal, and we are not against that principle in any way whatsoever.

Mr. Laughren: That is what we are debating.

Mr Mackenzie: Don’t force us to act on principle.

Mr. G. Taylor: Everybody is for the principle of this bill, but when you look at it in its particular characteristics, and its particular function, it is too heavy a burden for the workers of this province to pay for the partisanship of the NDP.

Mr. Mackenzie: Did you ever try to live on principle?

Mr. Laughren: On a point of order, did the member say that he supported the principle of the bill?

Mr. G. Taylor: If the member would listen to the speaker on the subject, he might hear what they say instead of having to ask for a repeat each time somebody speaks.

Mr. Laughren: He just said he supported the principle of the bill.

Mr. Acting Speaker: The member for Niagara Falls.

An hon. member: Here’s a friend of labour.

Mr. Kerrio: I would like to take a most responsible position as I relate my feelings to this bill.

Mr. Wildman: What’s your tack?

Mr. Kerrio: I suggest to those assembled that the injured workers of Ontario certainly deserve the support of the legislative body here, and I’m the first to suggest that that’s uppermost in my mind.

Mr. McClellan: You’re not the only one.

Mr. Kerrio: I certainly cannot support this bill, for a very good reason.

Mr. M. Davidson: We kind of figured that.

Mr. Kerrio: Unless we bring all facets into focus here --

Mr. Mackenzie: This bill depends on how many Liberals can vote for and how many can vote against.

Mr. Kerrio: -- and unless those people who would pass legislation on the floor of this Legislature realize that it’s very easy to do so if they pass on to someone else the responsibility to pay, then we could sit here and pass resolutions and bills all day long; it’s very easy to do.

Mr. Mackenzie: It’s nice for the workers to know they won’t get it if you’re the government then.

Mr. Kerrio: The fact of the matter is that looking after the worker is unrelated to any real responsibility as to who’s going to share the cost in this bill. I’m suggesting that while General Motors or some large corporation can pass on the costs of workmen’s compensation just by increasing the cost of a car and does not have to take any responsibility at all, you’re suggesting on that side that a small business person is not hurt in any way and that he can just increase his charges to anyone. You’re living in a little dream world. You don’t understand because you have never been there.

Ms. Gigantes: Have you ever been an injured worker?

Mr. Kerrio: I’m suggesting it would be easy for me if I were to stand in this Legislature and suggest that the way we are going to be fair to the injured worker is to have everyone in our society assume some of the responsibility by picking up part of the tab. It’s so easy to think that --

Mr. Mackenzie: An overall insurance plan would do that.

Mr. McClellan: Universal insurance would do that.

Mr. Kerrio: -- all of our society is represented only by the socialists. I suggest that the degree of inclination in their posturing is only in proportion to the number of people that are going to vote for them. The fact of the matter is that most of organized labour does not support the NDP. They realize that there are responsible people who are trying to bring responsible government to the country. The way to bring responsible government is to share the responsibility. No one here has suggested that because a worker is injured through no fault at all of the employer that someone else should bear the cost.

Mr. Lupusella: Why should we be responsible for that?

Mr. Kerrio: For example, the employee himself, or the government in many other parts of our society; why should it fall on a small employer who cannot pass it on? Who are they kidding? The NDP think they know what they are talking about. They don’t know the first thing of what they speak about in this regard.

Mr. McClellan: Send us a copy of your speech.

Mr. Kerrio: I say that looking after the injured worker to see that he gets fair compensation while he’s injured, to retrain him, if we will, to help him get back to work to pay a spouse of a person who has been injured if he were to die --

Mr. Laughren: How much?

Mr. Kerrio: -- as a result of the accident is certainly all of our responsibility and not that of one segment of our society. It is so easy for NDP members to sit there and act in that just way; they think they are trying to fool everyone in our society into thinking they’re the only interested people. It is so much bunk and they know it. One of the members suggested that that’s what they were doing.

Mr. Wildman: Dispense.

Mr. Kerrio: I woul