Manitoba Hansard — 3 May 2004 (Sitting 31, 38th Legislature, 2nd Session)

38-2-31

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LV No. 31 - 1:30 p.m., Monday, May 3, 2004

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

1433 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, May 3, 2004 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Minimum Sitting Days for Legislative Assembly Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: The Manitoba Legislature sat for only 37 days in 2003. Manitobans expect their Government to be accountable, and the number of sitting days has a direct impact on the issue of public accountability.

Manitobans expect their elected officials to be provided the opportunity to be able to hold the Government accountable. The Legislative Assembly provides the best forum for all MLAs to debate and ask questions of the Government, and it is critical that all MLAs be provided the time needed in order for them to cover constituent and party duties. Establishing a minimum number of sitting days could prevent the government of the day from limiting the rights of opposition members from being able to ask questions.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba to consider recognizing the need to sit for a minimum of 80 days in any given calendar year. Signed by Corazon Pineda, Eduardo Pineda and Anne Woloszyn. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House. Highway 227 Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition.

It is unacceptable for the residents of Manitoba to travel the unsafe gravel roads of Highway 227 in the constituencies of Lakeside and Portage la Prairie. Inclement weather can make Highway 227 treacherous to all drivers. Allowing better access to Highway 227 would ease the flow of traffic on the Trans-Canada Highway. Residences along Highway 227 are not as accessible to emergency services due to the nature of the current condition of the roadway. The condition of these gravel roads can cause serious damage to all vehicles, which is unac- ceptable.

Residents of Manitoba deserve a better rural highway infrastructure. We petition the Manitoba Legislative Assembly as follows: To request that the Minister of Transportation and Government Services to consider having High- way 227 paved from the junction of highways 248 and 227 all the way to Highway 16, the Yellowhead route. To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider supporting said initiatives to ensure the safety of all Manitobans and all Canadians who travel along Manitoba highways. Signed by Edna McRae, Brigitte Rivard, Lucien Cosyns and others. Mr.

Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House.

1434 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 2004 Proposed PLA–Floodway Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The Province of Manitoba has tabled legislation in the Legislature that may result in the $660-million expansion of the Red River Floodway by the summer of 2005. The Premier of Manitoba plans to subject all work related to the project to a Project Labour Agreement (PLA). The proposed PLA would force all employees on the project to belong to a union.

Approximately 95 percent of heavy construction companies in Manitoba are currently non-unionized. The Manitoba Heavy Co nstruction Association has indicated that the forced unionization of all employees may increase the costs of the project by $65 million.

The chair of B.C.'s 2010 Construction Leaders Taskforce has stated, "Major industrial projects built under project labour agreements from the energy sector in Alberta to o ff-shore development on the East Coast have repeatedly incurred cost overruns, labour disruptions and delays." * (13:35) Organizations including the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, the Manitoba Heavy Construction Association, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the Merit Contractors Association of Manitoba, the Winnipeg Construction Association, the Construc- tion Association of Rural Manitoba and the Canadian Construction Association have publicly opposed the Premier's plan to turn the floodway expansion project into a union-only worksite.

Manitobans deserve an open and fair competi- tion that protects taxpayers from unnecessary costs and respects workers' democratic choice. Manitobans support the right of any company, both union and non-union, to participate in the expansion of the Red River Floodway. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider ending his Government's forced unionization plan of companies involved with the Red River Floodway expansion.

To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider entering into discussions with business, construction and labour groups to ensure any qualified company and worker, regardless of their union status, is afforded the opportunity to bid and work on the floodway expansion project. Signed Conrad Nordman, David Dick, Jason Coreau and others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House. Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Speaker, I ask for leave to present a petition on behalf of the Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger). Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been granted. The honourable Member for Southdale to present on behalf of the honourable Member for Charleswood. Alzheimer's Disease Mr. Reimer: Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition. Alzheimer's is a debilitating disease. Cholinesterase inhibitors are known to slow or even prevent the progression of Alzheimer's.

The provincial government asked for the development of an Alzheimer's strategy in 2000 and was presented with nine recommendations in 2002, none of which has yet been implemented. In the absence of a provincial Alzheimer's strategy, the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority

May 3, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1435 put in place a policy in November 2003 whereby Alzheimer's patients entering personal care homes are being weaned from certain Alzheimer medica- tions in a move that the WRHA's vice-president of long-term care has referred to as financial necessary. The administrative costs of the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority have more than tripled since 1999, to a total of more than $16 million a year.

In a move that amounts to two-tier medicine, the families of Alzheimer's sufferers in personal care homes may request that the drugs continue to be delivered at the family's expense. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) to ensure that his attempts to balance his depart- ment's finances are not at the expense of the health and well-being of seniors and other vulnerable Manitobans suffering from this debilitating disease.

To urge the Minister of Health to consider reversing his decision to deny Alzheimer's patients in personal care homes access to certain medications. To request the Minister of Health to consider implementing a provincial Alzheimer's strategy. Signed by Carol Hawkins, Nina Logan, Jill Scott and others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House. Proposed PLA–Floodway Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

These are the reasons for this petition: The Province of Manitoba has tabled legislation in the Legislature that may result in the $660-million expansion of the Red River Floodway by the summer of 2005. The Premier of Manitoba plans to subject all work related to the project to a Project Labour Agreement (PLA). The proposed PLA would force all employees on the project to belong to a union. Approximately 95 percent of heavy construction companies in Manitoba are currently non-unionized.

The Manitoba Heavy Co nstruction Association has indicated that the forced unionization of all employees may increase the costs of the project by $65 million.

The chair of B.C.'s 2010 Construction Leaders Taskforce has stated: "Major industrial projects built under project labour agreements from the energy sector in Alberta to o ff-shore development on the East Coast have repeatedly incurred cost overruns, labour disruptions and delays." Organizations including the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, the Manitoba Heavy Construction Association, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the Merit Contractors Association of Manitoba, the Winnipeg Construction Association, the Construc- tion Association of Rural Manitoba and the Canadian Construction Association have publicly opposed the Premier's plan to turn the floodway expansion project into a union-only worksite. * (13:40) Manitobans deserve an open and fair competi- tion that protects taxpayers from unnecessary costs and respects workers' democratic choice.

Manitobans support the right of any company, both union and non-union, to participate in the expansion of the Red River Floodway. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider ending his Government's forced unionization plan of companies involved with the Red River Floodway expansion.

To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider entering into discussions with business, construction and labour groups to ensure any qualified company and worker, regardless of their union status, is afforded the opportunity to bid and work on the floodway expansion project.

1436 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 2004 Mr. Speaker, this is signed by John Peters, T. Peters, Tavis Peters and others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with the Rule 132(6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): I am pleased to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review, the 2004-2005 Departmental Expenditure Estimates. Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister of Advanced Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to table the Manitoba Student Aid Program Annual Report for 2002-2003. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS National Forest Week Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement for the House. Mr. Speaker, this white spruce seedling is presented to all members of the Legislature in celebration of National Forest Week and Arbour Day by Manitoba Conservation and the Manitoba Forestry Association. This white spruce is, of course, Manitoba's provincial tree, and those seedlings are locally grown at our very own Pineland Forest Nursery in Hadashville.

I would like to take the opportunity to announce that May 2 to May 8 is National Forest Week. In Manitoba, the Manitoba Forestry Association has marked this annual occasion by providing white spruce seedlings to all honourable colleagues. I commend the MFA for thei r ongoing efforts to celebrate and create awarene ss of our valuable forest resources. The MFA, along with their partners including Manitoba Conservation, have recently been chosen to host the 2006 Canon Envirothon.

This Olympic- style, environmental education competition will see over 250 high school students from over 50 provinces and states compete for scholarships during the week of July 23 through the 29, '06, here in Winnipeg. I would also like to note that the 2003 Manitoba Envirothon champion team representing the Swan Valley Regional Secondary School placed fourth out of 47 teams in Maryland, the highest ever placing for a Canadian team. Mr. Speaker, sustaining Manitoba's forests for environmental, social and economic benefits is a priority for Manitoba Conservation.

Over the past year, Manitoba Conservation has worked toward meeting the commitments that were laid out in the document Next Steps: Priorities for Sustaining Manitoba's Forests. It is appropriate to make a note of these important accomplishments as we celebrate National Forest Week. On behalf of the people of Manitoba, I thank the Manitoba Forestry Association for the white spruce seedlings and for its continued efforts to promote sustainable and wise use of our forests. We look forward to working with all those interested in sustaining our forests for the future. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

David Faurschou (P ortage la Prairie): I am pleased to see the Minister of Conservation rise in the House today, exercising ministerial authority that had been bypassed the last couple of years by previous ministers of Conservation. This particular week had only been marked by a member's state- ment, so I am pleased to see the minister's rising today. * (13:45) Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the Manitoba Forestry Association for placing upon our desks today Manitoba's recognized provincial tree, that being the white spruce.

I want to bear thanks to the previous administration for recognizing the white spruce as the provincial tree and the efforts of con- servation that were taking place at that time. I also want to congratulate the Manitoba Forestry Associ- ation for 85 years of dedication to the forests of Manitoba. They have outdone themselves in pro- motion of this very valuable natural resource we have here in the province of Manitoba. In fact, in the province of Manitoba, currently 94 percent of our woodland area is controlled by the Crown.

I also want to congratulate the young individuals from Swan River that did represent our province extraordinarily well in Maryland, and looking like we might have an opportunity in 2006 to have the

May 3, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1437 competition within our boundaries of Manitoba. We look forward to the high school students of Manitoba competing well in that regard. I want to encourage all members to participate in this week's activity, Arbour Day being today, and plant a tree, and continue, as we all know that there is concern for our environment and the rising temperatures globally. This is a way to combat that. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I ask for leave to speak to the minister's statement. Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been granted. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, I rise to give all-party recognition of the importan ce of trees and forests in Manitoba. I rise to compliment the Manitoba Forestry Association for th eir efforts in promoting wise stewardship of our forestry resources. This is important not only for the economic job benefits of the forestry industry, but it is also important for the recreational potential of our province and, indeed, as an important way of enhancing the scenic beauty of Manitoba.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 210–The Legislative Assembly Amendment Act

(2) Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), that Bill 210, The Legislative Assembly Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant la

Loi sur l'Assemblée législative, be now read a first time. Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard), seconded by the honourable Memb er for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), that Bill 210, The Legislative Assembly Amendment Act (2) , be now read a first time. Mr. Gerrard: The goal of this legislation is to recognize the need to improve democracy in Manitoba by including in the requirement for a recognized Opposition party the need to obtain 7 percent of the popular vote in the most recent provincial election.

The changes proposed would also recognize that for a functional political party there is a need to have two elected members in order to move and second bills and to introduce resolu- tions. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Could I have the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us Mr. Jim Potton who is the president and Patricia Pohrebniuk who is the program administrator of the Manitoba Forestry Association who are the guests of the honourable Minister of Conservation (Mr. Struthers).

Also in the public gallery we have from Neepawa Area Collegiate 34 Grade 11 students under the direction of Mr. Bob Ferguson. This school is located in the constitu ency of the honourable Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings). Also in the public gallery we have from École Christine-L'Espérance and their guests from Leth- bridge, Alberta, 23 Grades 8 and 9 students under the direction of Mr. Raymond Marion and Ms. Bonnie Lamoureux-Maclean. * (13:50) On behalf of all honourable members, I wel- come you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Pharmacare Deductible Increases Mr.

Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, last Friday we launched a toll-free Pharmacare hotline so Manitobans who are concerned about this Premier's heartless increase to the Pharmacare deductible had a central location to express their concerns. We have received a signifi- cant number of calls, and the stories we are hearing are heartbreaking. Some Manitobans indicate they will have to go without medicine. Others are indicating that they

1438 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 2004 may have to cash in their RRSPs. The message is very clear. This Premier's heartless cash grab is hurt- ing seniors and low- and fixed-income Manitobans. I would ask the Premier: Will he do the right thing and reverse his discrimination and reverse the Pharmacare deductible to what it should be? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): There is a $5-million increase in the Pharmacare line. Mr. Murray: That is cold, cold comfort to those seniors and fixed-income Manitobans who have seen a 15% increase from this Premier.

What is incredible is that these fixed-income Manitobans are seeing their Pharmacare deductible hiked up because this Premier is loading onto those seniors the tough decisions rather than making them themselves. He is just increasing the deductible on seniors. I would ask this Premier to do the right thing and listen to Manitobans who are calling the hotline because they are concerne d about choosing between medicine and milk. Will he do the right thing and reverse his heartless cash grab? Mr.

Doer: In the member's frantic attempt to justify closing music and physical fitness in schools, he came back with a so-called alternative budget almost a year ago, in May of 2003. He called on an increase in health care in 2004 of 1 percent. Mr. Speaker, that would translate into a $1.75-million increase for Pharmacare instead of a $5-million increase. This member opposite obviously had more draconian measures in mind. I would point out that they cut Pharmacare by 40 percent in '96. That was a cut in cash, in support. This is a $5-million increase.

When you do raise a deductible, it will have some impact on people. We recognize that. It is the only way to sustain a Pharmacare program with the thousand additional drugs that we have placed in the program, with the coverage of palliative care, home care drugs in the coverage of the program. I would point out that his so-called alternative budget, not the member from Emerson's alternative budget, would have a 1% increase. Ours is a 3% increase. Mr. Murray: Mr.

Speaker, I am surprised that this Premier can be so heartless to seniors and those on fixed income when he himself is quoted as saying that this increase in the Pharmacare deductible will be tough on low- and middle-income Manitobans. That is what this Premier has said. Now we have centralized an opportunity for Manitobans to call their concerns and express their issues on our Manitoba Pharmacare hotline. They are telling us that some of the increases are going as much as 50 percent. Some of their deductibles, they are having to pay more than 50 percent from a year ago. * (13:55) Mr.

Speaker, it is very, very clear. Mike Silver, who represents the Manitoba Society of Seniors, said that at the end of a month if there is only a dollar or two left over, these Pharmacare increased deduct- ibles are significant. Will the Premier listen to people like Mike Silver who represents a wide variety of hard-pressed Manitobans, seniors on fixed income? Will he listen to those Manitobans and do the right thing and reverse his heartless cash grab? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, we have added close to $80 million since we have been in office. We have added a thousand drugs, added palliative care for home care.

It is a program that is income tested with the greater burden on the coverage of this program on the higher-income individuals in Manitoba. I would point out that the Phar macare and pharmaceuticals are not covered under the Canada Health Act. There is no national program for Pharmacare. We are carrying the $177 million almost entirely by the provincial government taxpayer. We recognize that there needs to be a national Pharmacare approach. We s upport that and we are perfectly prepared to be accountable for a national Pharmacare expenditure with the national govern- ment.

It was promised in '97; it was promised in 2000. We understand that is going to be part of the so-called 10-year plan that eventually will be discussed in Canada. We think it is long overdue to have a national Pharmacare program. There are 10 separate Pharmacare programs in Canada according to the health information sources. We are spending the third most money on a per capita basis of any other province in Canada. A cut was the 40% reduction in '96. That is a cut. This is an increase of $5 million in this Budget. It still presents challenges for people.

We recognize that, but the member opposite last week asked that we reduce taxes and spending. We think we have a managed approach to the future.

May 3, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1439 Pharmacare Deductible Increases Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Speaker, in the recent budget that the Do er government brought down, we have seen the increase in Pharmacare deductible which is proving to be a tremendous hardship on seniors and Manitobans on a fixed income. In fact, we have been contacted by a senior who has Parkinson's disease which requires $700 per month for medication. With the increase in deduct- ible, he is now having to cash in his RRSPs. Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister respon- sible for Seniors (Mr.

Rondeau): How can this minister allow this Government to attack the seniors in this province who are retired and on a fixed income? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, when we introduced some increases in the deductible, we did it on a graduated scale so that those on the lower end and most income levels would see a very small in crease in the deductible.

Eighty-five percent of Manitobans who receive Pharmacare, which is, by the way, double than when members opposite were in government, but 85 percent of those Manitobans will see an increase in their deductible of $1 to $9 per month, and after that they will get 100% coverage. Mr. Speaker, 100% coverage of the 48 people who receive Gleevec cost us $1.2 million; 100% coverage of the 244 patients who receive Betaseron cost $3.2 million; 100 percent of the drug Eprex for cancer, of which 167 patien ts receive the drug, cost the drug program $1.6 million. We are providing 100% coverage. Mr. Reimer: Mr.

Speaker, we are being contacted by seniors who are saying they are having a problem making things meet, that it is costing them more money. What does the Minister responsible for Seniors (Mr. Rondeau) say to the lady who contacted us that has annual drug costs of about $1,800 per year, when her deductible will be going from $700 to $800, who said to us when she cannot afford her medication, she goes without because she is forced to make a choice between her cholesterol pills and her high blood pressure pills? What does the Minister responsible for Seniors say to this lady? * (14:00) Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, one of the other significant factors of the change to our Pharmacare approach is that we are going to more generic purchasing, more generic drugs that are put on that will decrease the costs, finding other ways of costing and providing drugs so that drugs like Pulmozyme, which 43 patients receive at a cost of $472,000, that is $10,990 per patient, of which, after they achieve their deductible, will get 100% coverage. Rebetron, which six patients receive, costs $30,000 for cover- age.

Flolan, which is for pulmonary hypertension, a benefit at a cost of $26,000 per patient, of which we provide 100% coverage. We want a Pharmacare program that will provide that kind of coverage universally in the future. Mr. Reimer: Mr. Speaker, seniors on a fixed income or on a very limited budget find no comfort in those facts. We see this Government announcing capital expenditures of $100 million for new VLTs.

We talk about $30 million for a laundry and a sandwich factory but we do not seem to have the money to help the seniors, the people on a fixed income, the people who are going to have to carry this Govern- ment's debt for years and years. I want to ask the Minister responsible for Seniors (Mr. Rondeau): How is he going to make priorities and how is he going to make it easier for the seniors to survive here in Manitoba? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the member talked about the laundry facility. When members were in office, they had a report that said you had to rebuild the laundry facility.

In October, when one of the two tunnel washers at HSC imploded, there were no parts to replace that tunnel washer. Those washers do 30 million pounds of laundry a year. It is sterilized laundry, et cetera. They waited for 10 years and that laundry facility imploded in October. We have no choice but to rebuild. Otherwise, people will not have sterilized sheets, sterilized equipment, sterilized clothing. It is inappropriate to talk about something they failed to do for 10 years and then talk about a capital cost. Education System Standards Testing Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, various media reported differently over the weekend on what the Doer gov- ernment is planning on doing regarding standards

1440 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 2004 testing in Manitoba. Some reported that the Govern- ment wants to make standards testing mandatory again for Grades 6 and 9. Others reported that the Government is abolishing tests for Grades 6 and 9. Could the Premier please clarify for the House what his Government is doing with the Grades 6 and 9 tests? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Members opposite will have members that were in Cabinet in 1999, who will have letters that were sent by the former deputy minister.

The minister's direction on August 12, 1999, reiterated in the deputy minister's letter, that is the status today. Mr. Murray: I have repeatedly stated, Mr. Speaker, and I believe that if we are going to help our children in Manitoba build a strong educational foundation then our efforts must be driven by standards and measured by assessments. If the Premier was truly interested in the education of Manitoba's children then he would not be waiting until the fall to start his consultations. He would be making a firm deadline and he would be talking about a new assessment approach that would be implemented.

I am simply asking this Premier: Why is there a lack of urgency? Why is it that he puts this very important issue off? Will the Premier begin his con- sultations immediately and will he commit to a date today? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I reiterate that there was a decision made by the former Minister of Education on August 12, 1999, not released publicly, I might add, seems to be reminiscent, and reiterated in a letter in September of 1999 prior to us being sworn into office in October of 1999. So, when members talk about consultation, they had a letter that nobody saw except when we came into office. Mr.

Murray: Well, Mr. Speaker, I am simply trying to get from this Premier a sense of clarification on what his Government, what he as the Premier of Manitoba stands for. We hear reports coming out of the Minister of Education (Mr. Bjornson) that there is no definite time line as to when this consultation process is going to start. I am simply asking this Premier: Will he make a commitment today to ensure that by the year 2004- 2005 all of those assessments will be completed? We want some sense of clarity from this Premier.

What is it that they are doing to ensure our children in Manitoba are getting a quality education? Mr. Doer: Notwithstanding the situation from 1999, Mr. Speaker, in Manitoba under our Early Childhood Development program, we are the first province in Canada to have EDI testing for children in kinder- garten on a voluntary basis. I am really pleased to say to the people of Manitoba that this first and very important program has now moved from 60% enrolment of EDI testing with children in kinder- garten up to 70 percent. We are the only province in Canada that is providing that.

I want to congratulate the educators that are having the testing at the first entry into our school system, doing assessments, EDI testing at the starting stages, the starting days of children going into school. I want to congratul ate all those educators. Fraser Mustard, at the meeting dealing with edu- cators and child care workers, praised Manitoba for being the first province in Canada with EDI testing in kindergarten. Members opposite should catch up to what is going on. Education System Standards Testing Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): The Minister of Education said in a Free Press

article this past Saturday, and I quote: "We are looking at developing a very comprehensive assessment approach through consultation with teachers." I am wondering where the parents are, where the administrators are. Will those people also be a part of this consultation process? Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): Well, I would like to say that, with respect to our direction in an assessment approach, I had said at the outset that we will not be cancelling the standardized test until such time that we have an acceptable assessment approach model in place.

That is first and foremost. The honourable First Minister (Mr. Doer) has referred to the dog that will not hunt. Coming from Gimli, that fish does not swim when it comes to what is happening right now with the standardized test, Mr. Speaker. As an optional uptake of standardized tests, less than 50 percent of our students are writing them and that is why we are moving towards an assessment approach. I had said repeatedly that

May 3, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1441 education is a consultative , recursive and inclusive process, and we will be engaged in consultation with regard to what we are doing on our assessment approach. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, I will inform the Premier that I too am a parent and I am extremely concerned about the education system and the lack of consultation process by this Government.

My question for the Minister of Education: Will the minister assure parents of children who will be affected by this change that they will have mean- ingful input into the final outcome and have a seat at the table for deciding the future of these Grades 6 and 9 assessments? Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Speaker, I too am a parent of three children and have been a teacher in the edu- cation system for 13 years. I intend to engage all stakeholders in the consultation process.

We are looking at an assessment approach that will provide indicators to students, indicators to parents, indi- cators to myself as minister on how we can improve our education system. It will be linked to the curriculum and it is going to be cost-effective. It will involve a lot of consultation with all of our stakeholders. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, it sounds like it has already been decided what this is going to be.

I would ask this minister again: Will the minister assure Manitoba parents and children that they will have meaningful input into developing a program for assessing our kids in Grades 6 and 9 and make sure that all options remain on the table so our parents, teachers, principals and administrators will have the necessary feedback to determine whether students have attained the desired provincial learning objec- tives? Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Speaker, our consultation model is going to involve all of our stakeholders throughout this process as it always has.

I have been in the classroom for 13 years, as I said, and I intend to keep my ear to the ground with our partners. Parents, teachers, all stakeholders will be involved in this process. The cost of the standardized testing is prohibi- tive. As such, Mr. Speaker, to extend it when the field has essentially ruled it out with less than 50% uptake on the standardized test, we are leaning towards an assessment approach which will be prov- ince wide.

It will provide meaningful feedback to parents, to teachers and to my department so we can continue to work to improve our education system. * (14:10) Education System Funding Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Tuxedo, on a new question? Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Yes, on a new question, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: On a new question. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, last spring the Doer government released, and I quote from a Free Press editorial, "A hollow pledge to ease the burden of taxes on property owners.

The plan lacks detail, deadlines and a guarantee that taxpayers will even notice any savings." Now, after three years, the Minister of Education has advised he anticipates receiving the education funding report, and I quote, "before the end of June, perhaps." Can the Minister of Education provide the tax-weary property owners a more definitive date when he will be in receipt of a long overdue education funding report? Do es this minister even have a draft of that report? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, members opposite raised taxes on the education portion, on average, 68 percent in the 1990's, from 1990 to 1999. We again announced another $10-million reduction in the ESL, that was on top of $17 million and another $10 million before that. Every promise we have made on education taxation, we have kept. Every promise they made, they have broken on education financing. The people know that. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, perhaps the Premier is unaware of the fact that education funding has hit a historic low in Manitoba. Terrible.

The Minister of Education said that he expects the report to call on the Province to assume 70 percent to 100 percent of costs of funding public education. How does this minister anticipate finding

1442 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 2004 the resources to achieve this target when last week he announced $1 million for arts and music in schools, but when pressed admitted he does not have the money in this year's Budget and has no idea when the Government can afford this announced program? Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): Mr. Speaker, with respect to the $1-million commitment to arts as an election promise, what we have done so far this year is $100,000 committed to the curriculum and develop- ment of the curriculum for that arts initiative.

We have made election promises and we have kept those election promises. Members opposite during the election were looking at eliminating the tax burden by eliminating arts, by eliminating music and cutting phys ed pro- grams. We value education in this Government and we value the benefits of offering our students as many opportunities as possible. Members opposite in this direction of cutting arts, cutting music, cutting phys ed, we would be back writing on chalkboard slates with that type of view. Mrs.

Stefanson: The Minister of Finance's Budget is less than two weeks old, and he has already announced a government garage sale to try to keep it balanced. Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Education tell Manitobans how he expects to achieve the goal of the Province assuming 70 percent to 100 percent of the cost of funding public education as his minister has said would happen? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, our funding for the operating budgets of education has been increasing double the rate it did under the former government. It is over $105 million.

Our funding for capital programs in the schools is at double the rate of the former govern- ment. In addition, inflation has been increasing double the rate it did under the former government. It is over $105 million. Our funding for capital programs in the schools is at double the rate of the former government. In addition, we have increased property tax credits by $56 million and we have increased spending to reduce the education support levy by $37 million. We are over $90 million in tax relief. We are over $100 million in operating funding.

We have over $27 million a year more for capital funding plus we cover the pension liability for teachers as well. All of that together is about 74 percent of education funding in this province. Microbiology Lab Location Mr. Denis Rocan (Carman): All members of this House believe strongly that Winnipeg's National Microbiology Lab should be confirmed as the headquarters, the command and control centre, for Canada's new public health agency. In fact, it was the Progressive Conservative Party at the federal level which made the decision in 1987 to build the lab here in Manitoba.

Others are arguing that the new public health agency cannot be anywhere but Ottawa and that a decision to put it here would be based on politics, not science. Could the Premier tell this House what scientific reasons, what substantive reasons, he has been advancing to support Manitoba's case to be the CDC of the North? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Indeed, former Premier Pawley and former national Health Minister Epp in 1987 confirmed the location of the lab here in Winnipeg. Members opposite will know it took a number of years to actually implement a decision that was made by the government in '87.

It took a number of years. In fact, I remember at the consti- tutional discussions with former Prime Minister Mulroney former Premier Filmon reminded the national government of their commitment and the lack of expediting that decision. I want to, first of all, thank the members of the total Manitoba community who have, across all party lines, been working together on the merit of the lab being located in Winnipeg, the extended role of public health and science to deliver the programs that are needed for Canadians.

The SARS cases last year and subsequent cases of avian flu have made it clear that Canada's capacity for dealing with disease on the basis of science must be enhanced. We believe that Manitoba, having the only Level 4 lab in Canada, the only Level 4 lab that deals with both human and animal disease, is logical.

This case is being made by civic leaders, business leaders, the Province of Manitoba and, I am pleased to see, and I know the support is there, from members opposite, members from all sides of this Chamber, to make sure that the decision is made on the basis of merit, which is Winnipeg, not on the basis of politics. Mr. Rocan: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Premier for that. We know that this Premier, along with business

May 3, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1443 and community leaders, was in Ottawa several weeks ago to present Winnipeg and Manitoba's case to have the command and control functions for the new public health agency here in Winnipeg. Can the Premier tell the House what has happened since that time to follow up that mission? Mr. Doer: I am not privy to all the discussions in Cabinet at the federal level, but I have discussed this on an ongoing basis with the business representatives and with our own federal Cabinet minister that is responsible for Manitoba, the lead minister for Manitoba.

I think it is clear, in our view, in follow-up we have had a number of business people who have had dealings with the federal government, follow-up in letters to the Prime Minister. I thought the meeting with the Prime Minister was very helpful to show that the whole community is together. I would point out that Manitoba has a $300- million advantage with the only Level 4 lab in Canada. It has also a time advantage because it takes a number of years to get an environmental licence, and we have a scientific advantage because all the major scientists are located in Winnipeg and working with the lab.

I would also point out that Doctor Plummer and Doctor Glavin are the two scientists that are co-chairing the G8 work on bioterrorism and bring an international perspective and have the close relationship with the Atlanta lab. I cannot apprise the memb er. I cannot deal with all the rumours that I have heard, nor do I know if the final decision is made.

We understand the decision is pending, and we certainly hope that the great reputation and the scientific role that has already been established here in Winnipeg, which helps also the science in the private sector, is enhanced by the decision of the federal government because it will be good for not only Winnipeg but for Canadians' public health into the future. Mr. Rocan: Mr. Speaker, in an e ffort to secure this vitally important infrastructure to be based in Manitoba, would the Premier commit to working together with the Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr.

Murray) to have a strong, united and concerted effort on the part of all Manitobans to ensure that Winnipeg is chosen as th e headquarters for the CDC of the North? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I am committed to working with all members and I know that members are committed to working with us. I do not see this as a partisan issue. I see us together.

I would say no matter what decision is announced this week or next week or dare I say the week after that, if any decision is announced, it has also been our collective e x p e r i e n c e t h a t w e w i l l h a v e t o w o r k h a r d t o m a k e sure science triumphs over any other considerations. Science is still the key to this. We have the scientific advantage, but I do recall that it took between 1987 and sometime in the late nineties to get some of the science located in Winnipeg that is now in place, the leadership we have now.

So no matter what the decision is and what is announced, I think all of us can work together, must work together. I pledge us to do that, with all members, because this is bigger than political parties. It is really important. Science is crucial for Manitoba's future. We already have the scientific cluster here and we have to continue to build upon that. I know we are all committed to doing that. * (14:20) The Architects Act Enforcement Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): This morning in my office, Mr.

Donald Oliver, president of the Manitoba Association of Architects, and Judy Pestrak, the association's executive director, raised their concerns that the NDP government is failing to enforce The Architects Act and, as a result, Mr. Speaker, this may allow drafting firms and interior designers to do architectural work without charging the Government's new retail sales tax on architects. All other provinces are enforcing their architect's act. The NDP in Manitoba are the last holdout.

I ask the minister responsible for The Architect's Act: Why has the Government moved to introduce a new 7% retail sales tax on architects without first resolving this issue? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): The day the Budget was delivered in the Legislature, my officials sent out faxes to the professional associ- ations and have, during the course of the last two weeks, been meeting with these groups to explain how the new tax will apply. In the case of the archi- tects, I am sure they will meet with them, address

1444 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 2004 their issues, and work out a method of implementa- tion that is fair to all. Provincial Sales Tax Professional Services Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): The Minister of Finance has said that, rather than consulting before the Budget, he ha s performed an analysis which shows that he will raise $17.2 million this year from the increase in the Government's retail sales tax on professional services.

I ask the Minister of Finance to be accountable to the members of this Legislature and table the analysis which he says he and his department have performed which indicates that the new retail sales tax will raise $17.2 million this year. I ask the minister to give us how much he will generate from each professional group; th at is, from lawyers, from the accountants, from the architects, from the engineers, from the privat e investigators and from those providing security services. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, we started the Es timates process on Friday in this Chamber.

I invite the member to attend that process. I will be happy then, with my officials in attendance, to deal with all the detailed questions he asked about revenue projections and what, in fact, the $17.2 million is composed of. Budget Advertising Campaign Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, that is an absolute cop-out of an answer from the Minister of Finance. My question is in regard to a government double standard. The government of the day approaches the opposition MLAs and says, "We are in tough times.

We want the MLAs to cut back on their abilities to be able to communicate with their constituency," and thereby saying that instead of us having three mailers a year, now we can have three printings and one mailer. It is a significan t cutback, and you know what? All MLAs have agreed to it. Well, on the other hand, what we see in terms of our double standard, what we are seeing is a government that is adver- tising on its Budget. Mr. Speaker, now we see it is advertising on the floodway. It does not have a problem in terms of spending taxpayers' money.

My question is: How much tax dollars are you spending on your double standard, Mr. Speaker? I pose that question to the Minister of Finance. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): The amount we are spending on– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Selinger: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The amount we are spending on the Budget this year is lower than it has been in several years, 40% lower than it was when the previous government was in power.

We are completely prepared to be accountable for all the spending we do on educating Manitobans about important opportunities in health care to improve their status, quality of life, important opportunities on how we can build the floodway to best ensure protection of the city of Winnipeg and communities around the city of Winnipeg. Any time we move forward to make sure that Manitobans have a better quality of life, we are prepared to engage with them in doing that. That is very different from the members from Ottawa in the Liberal government that passed the money to their friends and were not accountable for it.

Sherridon Rail Line Status Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transportation. Residents of Pukatawagan have rightly been con- cerned for some time about the potential closure of the Sherridon line. Could the minister explain what the recent agreement on the Sherridon line means for the residents of Pukatawagan? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): Mr. Speaker, I thank the member from Flin Flon for the question. It is a very, very important one for northern Manitoba.

We will be providing as a government support to assist the First Nations in purchasing the asset up North. I can tell the people up there that people of the area have the opportunity now for continued economic and community development as a result. Once again, Mr. Speaker, we are the Government that is supporting northern Manitoba, and here is the

May 3, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1445 proof once again that we are there to stand up for northern Manitoba. Thank you. Gull Harbour Resort Funding Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Mr. Speaker, Gull Harbour Resort, as beautiful and desirable a destina- tion as it may be, has been constantly losing money and is now $8 million in debt. At a time when this Government is in financial crisis, why is the Minister of Tourism (Mr. Robinson) now sinking another $700,000 into this facility? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, there is no question that the Hecla resort has been struggling over the last decade with finding a way to remain viable. Several initiatives have been taken on all sides to improve the capital in that facility to make it more attractive. We are currently working with a private consulting firm to see how best to position that facili ty for the futu re, whether it is in the public- or private-sector or what the best alternative for the future is. Mrs. Taillieu: Well, yes, Mr.

Speaker, we know that last January the Minister of Tourism was looking for a private partner to run the facility, and they did hire consulting. Can the minister tell us then what private partner they have and what is the plan for Gull Harbour Resort? Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): I believe that the Minister of Finance did cover a lot of ground in his response. Allow me to say that the Gull Harbour Resort is one of our most scenic resorts in Manitoba and, indeed, in Canada. It is a place for all Manitobans to be proud of, Mr.

Speaker, but as a government, we are just as committed to getting out of the hotel business as well. We have engaged the services of Ernst & Young to find other possibilities. First Nations are being consulted about using the location as an alternative to perhaps another industry. Mrs. Taillieu: Well, Mr. Speaker, the minister has really said that they have no final plan for Gull Harbour. Why did they not wait for the consultant's report? Why is another $700,000 of public money being funnelled into a losing venture without a solid plan of recovery? Mr. Robinson: Mr.

Speaker, the $7 00,000 indicated by the member is certainly a lot less than it has been in previous years. We are committed to ensuring that we do find a solution to the ongoing problem. We are looking at finding other alternatives that the location could be used for. In the meantime, it is business as usual at Gull Harbour until a viable solution has been found. Our officials have been meeting with union offi- cials, Mr. Speaker, as well as business owners and municipal officials. These meetings are providing information, we believe, on the Government's inten- tions.

We are soliciting input from the area and developing a long-term plan for the viability of the resort. Red River Floodway Expansion Advertising Campaign Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, the Doer government's mismanag ement of the floodway expansion project before dirt has even been turned is alarming to all Manitobans. Its forced unionization plan has fallen flat with the public. Now the Doer government is spending taxpayers' dollars on flood- way feel-good ads to repair the damage that the Premier (Mr. Doer) has caused.

Why is the NDP wasting taxpayers' dollars in what is supposed to be a tough budget year trying to repair its own damage, and how much is it spending? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Water Stewardship): Mr. Speaker, we are engaged in a very extensive process of informing Manitobans about the reality of the floodway. I say "the reality" because members opposite, I thought, were making some progress last week. They actually tabled the position that indicated the floodway expansion is going to be built, but I noticed today they went back to saying it may be built.

As is indicated by the success of many of the consultation meetings, we have set up meetings in Ritchot, West St. Paul, Taché, Springfield, Morris, St. Clements, St. Andrews, right down to East St. Paul, Niverville, Selkirk, Winnipeg. We have found that many Manitobans are interested in the oppor- tunities of the floodway and, of course, the most important part, the impact in terms of floodproofing. * (14:30)

1446 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 2004 What the member is referring to in terms of the advertising is a part of that, but we make no apolo- gies for informing Manitobans about what is going to be one of the most important projects of this decade. Mr. Goertzen: Well, Mr. Speaker, that was a pretty long tirade for a very simple question about how much was being spent, so I will ask again. You know, I see the members seem to have a bit of a trend here. They cannot seem to fix health care, so they put out some health care ads.

They cannot seem to produce a budget, the tax-them-all and tax-them- often budget that falls flat, so they put out some budget ads. Well, I am asking a very simple question. I just want the minister to stand in this House and tell us how much taxpayers' money in a tough budget year is going in on these floodway feel-good ads. Mr. Ashton: Well, you know, it was not that long ago the PC caucus was spending taxpayers' money putting the PC leader's face on billboards so let us not have any lectures from members opposite in terms of advertising.

They may wish to ask for their money back if the results are any indication there– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I cannot hear a thing. Mr. Goertzen: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if the member opposite is trying to mix up what party funds are and what government funds are, but I would like to tell him there is a significant dif- ference. Mr. Speaker, I asked a very simple question. The question was regarding taxpayers' dollars.

Taxpayers deserve to have an answer on how much money is being spent on floodway feel-good ads when the Government is cutting back on Pharmacare, when the Government is taxing entrepreneurs, when the Government is bringing in a whole host of new taxes. They will not tell taxpayers how much of their own money is going to try to convince them about the floodway. Will the minister now stand up and tell us a very specific answer to a very specific question? How much money is being spent on these ads, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Ashton: Mr.

Speaker, I am quite prepared to get the exact amount of all the outreach for the flood- way. It was not a tirade to list the many communities that the Floodway Authority has met in, but I am quite prepared to provide the member with that information in terms of the specifics because I do believe it is important to bring accurate information. I would hope the member, by the way, will start tabling those other petitions which say the floodway expansion is going to built. It is going to be built and we are proud to share with Manitobans the many benefits that are going to come from building that expansion. Mr.

Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Access River East Mr. Harry Schellenberg (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, we are making positive improvement to the health of our communities. Last week, the Premier (Mr. Doer) officially opened the first community access centre in Manitoba, Access River East. This new centre makes it much easier for individuals and families to find the essential services they need to stay well.

Delivering integrated health and social services from community sites allows staff to be more focussed on the unique needs of people and that means better co-ordination of services and improved care. This access centre will provide residents of northeastern Winnipeg, Mr.

Speaker, with improved access to health and social services, including a primary care clinic with a team of family doctors, midwifery, home care, ch ild and family services, children's special services, child day care licensing and co-ordination, community mental health serv- ices, employment support to persons with disabili- ties, vocational rehabilitation, employment income assistance, public health and a seniors' health resource team and supported living.

There are a number of excellent facilities in the building, including well-equipped clinic rooms, audi- ology lab, comfortable waiting areas, private con- sultation rooms, a community kitchen and education

May 3, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1447 rooms and meeting spaces available to the com- munity. Students from four local high schools, Elmwood, Kildonan East, Mennonite Brethren and River East, are designing a mural for th e children's waiting area in the coming weeks. There is also a beautiful round room that highlights the important contribution that Aboriginal culture makes to our community. Mr.

Speaker, the centre will provide information to area residents, and staff will work closely with organizations in other sectors to support community activities and contribute to the development of robust, healthy neighbourhoods. I want to thank the talented staff at Access River East for their work l eading up to today's announcement. This initiative takes innovative approaches to service integration to better meet the needs of Manitobans. Roger Cross Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr.

Speaker, I rise today to ask the members of this Chamber to join me in congratulating Roger Cross who has recently been named as the Conservation Officer of the Year for his 35 years of service to the province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, Roger has toiled in the Department of Conservation, the department responsible for the protection and enhancement of the natural resources of this province for, as I said, 35 years and has seen an enormous amount of change during those years, starting off with the officer's only means of pro- tection.

The only thing at their disposal to assist them with their duties might well have been a flashlight or occasionally a shotgun, I suppose, if they had a wildlife problem where today they now carry side arms, collapsible batons and, I believe, pepper spray. They have also seen their duties change because very often they are called on backup to the RCMP for some very serious situat ions. As I am sure Roger would say if he was here, they deal increasingly more and more with people who are more desperate and probably more dangerous in their day-to-day work of protecting the wildlife, particularly in this province.

Having been involved with firefighting, involved with flood protection and fighting the flood of '97, I think that Roger Cross has indeed earned the respect of his fellow officers and I believe, certainly, my respect and I hope the respect of all members of this Legislature. Healthy Living Web Site Mr. Conrad Santos (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, King Solomon said, "Get wisdom, get understanding for they are life to those wh o find them and health to all their flesh." Our health is our wealth. Without health there is no happiness. If we care for ourselves well then we can expect to enjoy a healthy and long life.

One way to ensure such a good and healthy life is through education. Knowledge and a healthy lifestyle lead to long and healthy living. On April 27, 2004, the Department of Healthy Living announced a new Web site which provides healthy living information to all Manitobans. The Web site emphasizes health promotion and accident prevention. It provides links to information and advice on healthy eating, active living, injury pre- vention and quitting smoking. It will also provide in formation on injuries in Manitoba and injury prevention resources.

The Department of Healthy Living encourages the con- sumption of natural and nutritious food. Good food and balanced meals are key components to promote health and to prevent disease. The department also promotes physical activity , which increases energy, reduces stress and strengthens the heart and lungs. Physical activity also helps us to achieve and main- tain proper body weight . These are some of the important aspects of a healthy lifestyle. The Department of Healthy Living has been created to support behaviour and improve conditions in our daily lives.

Our physical, mental, social and spiritual health are needed for us to make healthy decisions in our daily lives. Healthy people make a healthy community. Healthy communities make a healthy province like Manitoba. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Prairie Dog Central Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): I rise today to share with my colleagues and fellow members of the House a wonderful tourist attraction and a piece of

1448 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 2004 our Manitoba history. Mr. Speaker, the Prairie Dog Central passenger cars were built between 1901 and 1913. They are pulled by vintage locomotives, including an 1882 stea m locomotive and a 1960 diesel locomotive. The Canadian Northern Railway, known as the Canadian National Railway, purchased by the Vintage Locomotive Society in 1999, built the line in 1905. The Prairie Dog played an important role in shaping our Manitoba and Canadian heritage in the transportation industry as this train was used to trans- port the early pioneers to settle our province.

This train also carried many dignitaries, including prime ministers of our country. Even today, through the efforts of the Vintage Locomotive Society, we are able to keep the Prairie Dog running so our friends and family have an opportunity to experience what the early settlers experienced when they first came to our great province. Mr. Speaker, it is th rough the efforts of the R.M.s of Woodlands, Rosser and Rockwood, the Western Lake Trading Company and the Vintage Locomotive Society that we are so fortunate that a piece of Manitoba history has been preserved.

I encourage all of you to take a ride on the Prairie Dog Central. It will be one of your more memorable experiences. Highway Improvements Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to make mention of an important partnership between the Government of Manitoba and the R.M. of Bifrost. The two have just entered into a cost-sharing agreement to improve road and drainage conditions on 3.2 kilometres of Provincial Road 326, north of PR 329. The total cost of the project is estimated to be $200,000 and is to be completed during the '04 construction season.

This will improve access to Okno and surrounding farm- ing communities. * (14:40) Manitoba has provided special support to rural highways through the cost-shared $32-million Prairie Grain Roads program of which the Highway 68 project from No. 8 to Poplarfield was the premier project. Every cent of provincial fuel tax is invested in roads. Manitoba's five-year $600-million highway program is now in its third construction season. This year's Budget added $10 million for the upcoming season and a further $10 million for next year.

This announcement continues our commitment to highways and transportation infrastructure in northern Manitoba and the Interlake. The Province will provide $3.6 million for paving 11 kilometres on PTH 8 from PTH 68 to north of PR 329 at Riverton. Manitobans travelling on the southern half of Highway 6 will be pleased to know that there will be $4.6 million spent for the rehabilitation on the Fairford River control structure. This work will be completed over two years and is cost-shared between the departments of Transportation and Conservation. Two thirds of the $3 million will be flowing in '04. Mr.

Speaker, there will also be $2 million for bituminous paving and culvert replacement on Provincial Highway No. 6 at Provincial Road 229, the Clarkleigh intersection. This project is the first stage of upgrading on this

section of Highway 6. The Highway 6 intersection at Steep Rock will also see a further $360,000 in improvements. Improvements to Highway 6 continue as the Province purchases right- of-way near Grosse Isle. I am proud to be part of a government that has spent more than $130 million on northern trans- portation infrastructure and has more than tripled the budget for winter roads since 1999. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Order. Could I have everyone's atten- tion for a second. I just spotted a very special gentleman who is up in the public gallery.

I want to introduce Morris Chaychuk, w ho is the father of our Clerk, Patricia Chaychuk. He is from Dauphin. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Please call Supply.

May 3, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1449 Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 23(5), the House will now resolve into the Committee of Supply. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) AGRICULTURE, FOOD AND RURAL INITIATIVES * (14:50) Mr. Chairperson (H arry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives. As had been previously agreed, questions for this department will follow in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): I think when we left off on Friday afternoon we had discussed the total loans portfolio that the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation had under its jurisdiction, and I believe it was somewhere in the neighbourhood of $575 million that had been indicated the previous year. This year, Mr.

Chairperson, I believe, was some- where in the neighbourhood of 598. I stand corrected on it; it may be 600 and a few million, but I believe it was somewhere in the neighbourhood of $40 million, the loan authority, more than the previous year. I am talking about the loan authority. I wonder whether the minister could indicate whether her Government has given any consideration to the extra funds that would be required by them announcing a hundred million dollars loans program without giving any authority to the corporation to actually extend those monies over and above what they had paid out last year. Hon.

Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Mr. Chairman, I would like to take the opportunity to introduce the staff who are joining me at the table. Of course, I have previously introduced my deputy minister, Barry Todd. We have with us Charlene Kibbins, who is the acting chief executive officer, and Karen McEachen, who is the chief financial officer for the Agricultural Credit Corporation. Mr. Chairman, with respect to the question, the capital lending requirement in 2002-03 was $145.6 million. In '03-04, it is $204.85 million. So additional capital requirement has been provided for.

Mr. Penner: I wonder if the minister could indicate exactly by how much. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, it went up $59.25 million. The reason it did not go up by the full $100 million was that we still had some lending authority within the existing operations of the corporation. Mr. Penner: What is the process then within gov- ernment when you would approach the amounts of authority that would limit you from lending? Mr.

Chairperson, would government then order a special warrant or how would the authority be given to the Credit Corporation to, in fact, extend the full $100- million worth of BSE loans if you actually thought that you were going to extend that? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairperson, if there was need for additional funding, if we exceeded the $100 million, we would then go back to Treasury Board for approval for additional funds. Mr. Penner: Mr.

Chairperson, that tells me then that the Government was almost certain that they would not be extending $100 million under the BSE program when they first announced it because they did not make the proper arrangements to extend the authority to the corporation to advance that amount of money to the livestock producers in this province. Is that correct? Ms. Wowchuk: No, Mr. Chairman, that is not correct. We had about $40-million of authority. We wanted to be able to lend out $100 million, so we put in place an additional 59.2 to ensure that we had the $100 million. We had the authority to lend $100 million. Mr.

Penner: Then I go back to page 38 of the Sup- plementary Information that the minister has tabled in the House for Agriculture. I go back to the objectives of the Agricultural Credit Corporation to provide administrative and operational support to the delivery of programming carried out by Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation to provide farmers with loans, to administrate the Young Farmer Rebate, provide for guaranteed loans and provide special farm assistance in co-operation with the

1450 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 2004 mediation board, provide disaster relief assistance as directed by the Government of Manitoba in emer- gency situations. Mr. Chairperson, expected results provide a total loan and guarantee portfolio in the range of $575 million for the approximately 5000 Manitoba farmers and provide an estimated total of $80 million in new loans.

That, I would suspect, was before the BSE crisis, so I would suggest that the minister was either aware that she was not going to extend the full amount of the $100 million announced, or would have made provisions by providing the loan authority to the corporation in its funding announcements.

When I look at the total amount to provide an estimated $30 million, which includes the Bridging Generations loans, $20 million, direct loans of $30 million and stocker loans of another $30 million, if that is not so, is it then true that the stocker loans program has become part of the $56 million that the minister has announced, has been extended out of the BSE program to farmers? * (15:00) Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Chairman, the Government fully intended to lend out the loans as they were called for by the producers and I can indicate to the member clearly that, had the $100 million been used and there was need for more, we would have had more money for producers. The member also has to remember that it is a very large portfolio. Some money is being lent out, payments are being made, so the money is going in and out of the portfolio, but if I look at what we had last year in accounts receivable and in guarantees, we had $525.5 million. This year, our portfolio is $611.2 million, so there is an increase in the portfolio.

Money goes in and out and we have provided adequately to be able to loan out the $100 million if producers were to take out additional loans. Mr. Penner: The minister said $611 million? Ms. Wowchuk: $611.2 million. Mr. Penner: Does that mean that during the BSE crisis or during the year of the BSE crisis we are expecting to borrow, or loan, $36 million more than we did on a year without a BSE crisis, is that cor- rect? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, the amount that was loaned out during the BSE crisis is included in that number. Mr.

Penner: So you are suggesting to me that the $56 million that you said Friday that had been loaned out under the BSE program is included in the 575. Ms. Wowchuk: It is included in the 611.2. Mr. Penner: Okay, that is clarified. Can the minister tell me how much of the $20 million that has been dedicated toward Bridging Generation loans has been loaned out? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, last year in '02-03 we loaned out $14.6 million; in '03-04 we loaned out $10.9 million under the Bridging Generations loans. Mr. Penner: The direct loans, how much of the $30 million was extended to producers? Ms.

Wowchuk: I gave the number for Bridging Generations, and for Bridging Generations there was $20 million provided. Then I have given the member the numbers of what the actual activity was. On the direct loans there is $30 million provided; last year's activity was $19 million. Mr. Penner: Could you indicate how much money was loaned out to the stocker loans program? Ms. Wowchuk: Last year we loaned out $10.8 million on the stocker loans. Mr. Penner: So you were significantly under budget. Could you tell me what the various interest rates are on the various loans?

The young farmer loan, what would the base rate of interest be without the rebate? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, the rate of interest will depend on the terms that the individual chooses to take. For example, if you are taking a five-year, the MACC interest rate that is effective April 2, and of course the member knows that the interest rate has been moving so it has to be updated on a regular basis. But a five-year term would be at 5 percent. Off that, you would get a 2% reduction on the first $100,000 and that would result in a $10,000

May 3, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1451 saving for the individual. So it depends on the length of time that the individual chooses to take their loan for, but the rate is set and then there is a 2% reduc- tion off of that rate. * (15:10) Mr. Penner: What are the other terms? Let us say 10- and 15-year or have you no 10- and 15-year programs, or 20? What is your maximum, 20 years? [interjection] Mr. Chair, 25? What is the interest rate at the maximum level? Ms. Wowchuk: As of today, the interest rate for a 25-year term is 7.125 so you have a reduction of 2 percent off of that up to a maximum of $10,000.

The member asked for 10 years, that is at 6 percent; 15 years is at 6.6 percent. Mr. Penner: What would your 10- and 15-year rates be? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairperson, 10 years is 6 percent, and 15 years is 6.6 percent, 6.625 percent. Mr. Penner: How about loans to anybody over 40 years of age? Are these inte rest rates concurrent with what anybody can borrow for? Do you have a standard rate? Ms. Wowchuk: Yes, those are MACC's interest rates and they would be the rates that everybody else would pay except a young farmer who would get a 2% rebate. Mr.

Penner: Could the minister tell me why your rates are higher than most other financial institu- tions? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, if you look at the bank rates, the loaning ra tes that are offered by banks, our rates are very competitive with those facilities. As well, the rates that a farmer would get from the bank, the loans that they would get would be much shorter term. We were talking about the rates for 15, 20 and 25 years, and the commercial banks do not even post a rate for those kinds of long-term loans. The rates, as you look at what is posted, we feel that we are very competitive. Mr.

Penner: I would suggest to the minister that she should go check the rates at banks and the terms of loans that one can get and/or negotiate with various institutions. Secondly, I would also suggest to her that she should look at the federal, the FCC program and the rates offered there and the terms of the loans. Ms. Wowchuk: If I could, just on that, Mr. Chairman, on a one-year loan, these are posted rates for the banks. For a one-year loan, ours at the Credit Corporation is 4.05,

whereas the banking institutes are, across the board, 4.5 to 4.55 on a one-year loan. On a five-year loan, our rate is 5.125, and the banking institutes posted rates are from 6.0 to 5.9, 5.8. So, again, they are posted at a higher rate. Yes, people can negotiate on those. With respect to the Farm Credit Corporation, they do not post their rates, and we do not have them included in our informa- tion. Mr. Penner: Are the MACC rates also negotiable? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, MACC loans are not negotiable. Those are the rates that we have. Our negotiation is our rebates that we have on programs.

Where we have our flexibility is on our Young Farmer Rebate program, but our rates are fixed. Mr. Penner: How much money does MACC have outstanding on the loan guarantees, and how large would the largest one be? Ms. Wowchuk: There has been a lot of activity in this area. Between 2002-2003 and 2003-2004, there was an increase of 13.8 percent and the total portfolio of the guarantees is $250.5 million. I will just get you the highest one. The largest loan that we have under this program is about $20 million. That means we have a guarantee of about $5 million on it. Mr.

Penner: Are these loans mostly extended to livestock operations such as hog operations? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, there is a large portion of the portfolio that is in livestock pro- duction, but it covers a large area. For example, there are people in seed cleaning, forage production and, of course, I have a tremendous interest in adding value to all of the agriculture products that we have here, so I am pleased to see we have additional loans that are going into those areas. We have loans in the potato area, poultry production, cow-calf, but the majority are in livestock production. Mr.

Penner: Well, the minister makes an interesting comment. She says she is very interested in value-

1452 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 2004 added production. Could the minister indicate to this committee how many value-added projects, new value-added projects, have come on-stream since she has been the minister? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, in this portfolio, all projects are adding value, because if you are feeding grain, that is adding value. If you are cleaning grain, that is adding value. If you are processing forage, you are adding value.

All the diversification loan guarantee programs are really looking at how we can add value to primary products in this province and get additional job creation, additional revenue for farmers. So they are all adding value. Mr. Penner: Could the minister indicate how many new value-added projects have come on-stream since she has been the minister? Ms. Wowchuk: Since we have taken office, there are about 165 projects that have been funded through this program for a total value of about $180 million. That is a significant amount of activity that has happened under this loan program since we have taken office. Mr.

Penner: You need not do this today, but could you maybe by tomorrow or the day after tomorrow give me a list of the names of those projects? Ms. Wowchuk: No, we cannot give you the names of the projects. Those are individuals. That is private information. I can give you the areas as I have of where the investments are, but I cannot disclose who has borrowed the money. Mr. Penner: I was not referring specifically to either the loans portfolios or the amounts of loans. I was just wanting the names of the companies that have been established by your Government.

If there are 165 new companies operating, I would like to know what the names of the companies are, without giving any information as to whether they have had loans with you or not. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, I cannot divulge the information of who has loans with us, but I can also say to the member that many of these are people who were in business before, but who have diversified their business, so that is the number of projects that have been started or expanded through this program and that is the amount of investment that has taken place.

I cannot divulge the individuals who have borrowed money. * (15:20) Mr. Penner: Could the minister then indicate how many new ones there have been, not expanded ones but brand-new ones? Ms. Wowchuk: That would be very difficult to do. The staff would have to review every individual file to find out whether they were an existing user of a program who have then decided to expand it. I am indicating to the member the number of people who have used the program in each year and the total number of the people who have used the loan program since 2001.

So that is what I can indicate to the member rather than say we can figure out which one is a new one or which one is an expanded one. I do not see any value in that. What I am indicating to the member is that there has been a fair amount of activity under this program and whenever you have activity here there is added value to the province. Mr. Penner: Thank you very much. That adds a very significantly different light. It throws a different light on the whole matter than 165 new projects.

This would appear that the minister is now saying she has had some involvement in financing, whether through various operational modes, 165 projects in the five years that she has been in government. That is fair ball. I have no problem with that. I would like to know, however, at some point in time how many new projects have come on stream since the NDP government has been in power. The second question that I would like to ask, Mr. Chairperson, is does the minister know how many of these companies would be numbered companies. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, I do not have that information at the table here.

But I can indicate to the member that it would be a small portion of these loans that would be numbered companies. Mr. Penner: Well, if the minister finds it in her heart to maybe provide that information, I would find it useful to know how many numbered companies we are borrowing money to. There are other people here that might want to ask some questions on MACC.

May 3, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1453 Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I wonder if I could ask a series of questions on agriculture, not necessarily specific to MACC, in order to be able to fit these in on a timely basis. The first would relate to circumstances with BSE and the fact that we all are hopeful that the border will open, but, if it does not, it will certainly create a difficult situation for many producers. So I would ask the minister: What is her contingency plan if the border does not open? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Chairman, the whole BSE situation has been very difficult for all producers across the country. Certainly, we recognize that our close tie to the U.S., even though it is our largest market, is one that we have to address. That is why people have been working at Rancher's Choice to increase our slaughter capacity in this province. Many other facilities are looking at how they can be part of increasing our slaughter capacity. One of the challenges is we need federally inspected facilities in order to ship out of this province.

We have been in discussion with the federal government of looking at ways when someone is willing to move to a federally inspected standard to have that process go quickly. We, as ministers of agriculture across the country, have been working with the federal government to look at what the opportunities are for new markets, because we know we do not want to be just dependent on the United States. Boxed beef is going to the United States. Certainly we have developed a fairly significant market in Mexico for Canadian product. They have been very pleased with the boxed beef that has been coming into Mexico.

So we have to look at how we can continue to develop that market. I took some comfort in the words of President Bush on Friday when he i ndicated that he wants to see the border opened. I hope that the words that Secretary Veneman put on the record very early indicating that decisions would be based on science will become a reality.

But we have to continue to work to get back to the integrated North American market that we have. * (15:30) Certainly the work that Canada, Mexico and the United States have committed to, to taking a position at the OIE to change some of the rules where one animal is not considered in the same vein as an animal when there is an epidemic, as they had in Europe–so, yes, people are dealing with it, looking at what our options are in other parts of the world and continuing to take the steps to have the border open.

Certainly the steps that were taken to remove the SRMs out of the product were a significant step because, in reality, that is where the risk is and having those kinds of harmonizations on both sides of the border are also significant. Mr. Gerard Jennissen, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mr. Gerrard: I would ask the minister, people who are sheep producers, goat producers, bison, elk have been really sideswiped by a disease which does not affect their animals.

Many producers feel that they have been treated by this Government as second- class citizens instead of really putting the kind of effort that might have been put in to advancing the cause of these producers, so I would ask the minister specifically what she is doing for these people who have been badly affected. Ms. Wowchuk: There is no doubt that the people raising some of the other ruminants have been hurt, if not as badly, even in some cases worse, because of the lack of slaughter cap acity to slaughter these animals.

I can tell the member that all the programs that Manitoba has in place cover the other ruminants, whether they be sheep, goats, bison or others. As well, when we made our comments on the U.S. rule, we asked that the other ruminants be addressed as well. We have not neglected them, but we do have also the challenge again of slaughter capacity and who is going to provide slaughter capacity for these other animals. Certainly, this incident has pointed out how significant our lack of slaughter capacity is, but we are always conscious of all producers in this provin ce.

They are included in our programs, and they were included in our com- ments. I can tell the member, Mr. Acting Chairman, that I also raised their case at the meetings that I attended. Mr. Gerrard: My next question concerns the potato industry, producers who are concerned about cut- backs in contracts. There is a rumour which is going around that some of the cutbacks were prompted by the unionization of the Simplot plant and Simplot, as a result, deciding to take its production elsewhere. I

1454 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 2004 just would ask the minister for a clarification on the situation here in light of such rumours. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Acting Chairman, I can tell the member that I met with Simplot within the last couple of weeks. I met with Midwest last week and the issue of unions did not come up in those discussions. This is really an adjustment imposed by the fast-food industry. There has also been some decline in consumption of some of the fast foods in the major chains, and they are very conscious of quality. We are working very closely with the pro- ducers as we have indicated.

We will work with them, but the issue of union contracts did not come up in any of the meetings at all. So I am not sure where the member heard that rumour, but it was not part of our discussions with either company. Mr. Gerrard: Just to give a quick view of the Gov- ernment's strategy with regard to the potato industry, in light of what is happening. Ms. Wowchuk: I am sorry. Mr. Gerrard: What I am asking is what the Government's strategy is in terms of the Manitoba potato industry, in light of what is happening with the decreased number of contracts. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Acting Chairman, this is an important industry to us. It is a growing industry and it is absolutely important that the consumers, the people who are buying our product, have the confi- dence that Manitoba can produce a reliable quality and a consistent quality to the suppliers. We will work very closely with the growers to address these quality issues and ensure that quality is there on a consistent basis. As I have said, we have met with the companies and we have an irrigation program. We have to continue to promote irrigation and work with the producers to see that that expan- sion continues.

One of the issues that is there for the industry is the issue of dry land corners and the impact that has on quality. We want to work with the industry to provide the technical advice and help that they need. The producers are going to have to work as well to be sure that their product is consistent. As I say, Mr. Acting Chairman, there is the issue of the dry land corners and not wanting to separate those potatoes out from potatoes that meet the stand- ards. There are storage issues, a variety of issues that we are prepared to work on with the producers and provide the training.

We ar e prepared to work on the irrigation and we hope we can see growth in that area. I can also indicate to the member that we have told the companies and we intend to follow up with the fast-food industry, who are the major buyers in this, to ensure them that Manitoba does have high quality and that we are willing to work with the producers to meet some of those demands. There are a few issues, as I say, with regard to storage, with regard to irrigation, but I can also indi- cate to the member that this is not only a Manitoba problem. The Alberta potato industry has also taken a decrease of 7 percent.

So it is a fairly significant issue and one that we have to continue to work with. We will be working with those producers, not only at the technical level, but also on the marketing end of it and building their confidence in the Manitoba supply. * (15:40) Mr. Gerrard: Now, a question on the hog industry. Under The Planning Act, the responsibility for reg- ulating storage and spreading of manure becomes now provincial and completely out of the jurisdiction of the rural municipalities. Some municipalities have mandated an injection standard, that is, that all hog manure be injected into the land.

Others have used a standard which would see the manure spread on the land. I would ask the minister: What are her plans in terms of the pro- vincial standard? Will it be based on the practice of spreading manure on the land or of injecting manure into the land? Ms. Wowchuk: When you talk about the application of manure, there is solid manure, liquid manure. Solid manure will continue to be spread in the way that it is spread. With liquid manure it is reasonable. There are good agronomics to indicate that it should be injected on cropland. However, when you go to forages it is not feasible to inject.

So you cannot make just one blanket policy on how manure will be applied, because there are different aspects to

May 3, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1455 agriculture and different ways that farmers apply this given the crops that they grow. Mr. Gerrard: And so will the Province put regula- tions which kind of micromanage the circumstances of when manure is injected and when it is spread? Ms. Wowchuk: Each individual who has over 300 animal units will put in place their manure manage- ment plan. That manure management plan will be reviewed and if there are issues with respect to neighbours or the landscape that is when it will be addressed. But it is not government's intention to micromanage every farm.

It will be through the manure management plan that is put forward and reviewed. Mr. Gerrard: As the minister knows, the amount of manure that can be spread on an acre at the moment is based primarily on a nitrogen standard. That is the amount of nitrogen that is in the manure and can be applied to those acres. But the Minister of Water Stewardship (Mr. Ashton) is dealing with a lot of circumstances where it is the phosphorus which is causing critical prob- lems, for example, in Lake Winnipeg.

So there has been a lot of discussion about whether it is going to be important to move to a phosphorous standard as well as a nitrogen standard in this regard. I mention this because the Manitoba contribution, for example, on the Red River management Web site specifically talks about concerns about phosphorus coming from agricultural lands. Ms. Wowchuk: The issue of the nutrients in all fertilizers is a very important issue, and what you have to do is have a balance between what you apply and what the crop can take up.

What has to be done is there has to be more work done in this area here in Manitoba, and there is. There is research that is being done on phosphorus right now. There is a manure management committee and there is work being done on phosphorus to see how we should collect this data. There is a phosphorous expert committee that includes the University of Manitoba and the agriculture producers, including Keystone Agricultural Producers.

So there is a lot of work being done on phosphorus right now, and we have to work to ensure that there is a ba lance between the nutrients that we put in the ground and the amount that is built up in the soil. It is a significant issue, but one that work is being done on, and it is always that we have to look at the types of soil that we have, the types of crops that we grow. There is data being collected on it. Mr.

Gerrard: I have talked to a number of farmers recently who are very keen to see there be a lot of opportunities which would take advantage of an IP system, identity preserve system for grains, and just– although this probably falls more appropriately, for the most part, in the federal domain in terms of approach, I would ask what the provincial govern- ment's approach is to this. Ms. Wowchuk: This is an important issue and one we have had significant discussion on. Farmers have a desire to grow a lot of crops right now that cannot be identified under the KVD or the kernel visual distinguishability.

This is limiting our ability to grow some of the crops that will be important to us as feeds for livestock, important to us in the ethanol industry. I have raised this issue many times. * (15:50) The Canadian Grain Commission did some work on trying to find a way that could identify the crops. It was a volunteer system that did not get off the table. So I believe that the IP system is important. It is one I have raised with the federal government, and he is right, it falls under the jurisdiction of the federal government. But we continue to raise it. Mr.

Acting Chairman, I think that it is particu- larly important to Manitoba as we see our livestock industry increase and look at other alternate energy sources. We know that the IP system works well in other crops such as Canola, with the high erucic acid variety. So the system works. We need to continue to encourage people to do the research and develop the equipment that will allow for this to happen. Mr. Gerrard: Another area that I have had farmers approach me on has to do with the concerns over infectious diseases broadly.

For instance when we were discussing foot-and-mouth disease some time ago, there was clearly a need to be able to regionalize a disease very quickly so that problems in another province would not have the kind of disastrous impact that they potentially could have if there was a case of foot-and-mouth disease in another province.

1456 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 2004 I would ask the minister whether she has been making efforts to push for better approaches to regionalization so that, for instance, if there was a foot-and-mouth case in Saskatchewan that it could be quickly regionalized and Manitoba producers would not suffer the terrible and potentially disastrous con- sequences? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Acting Chairman, one of the examples of regionalization was with the outbreak of avian flu in British Columbia. British Columbia was really set out as a region and the rest of the country was not affected by it.

There has been a lot of discussion about how we could do some regionalization in the country. There is a zoning project that hopefully will move forward this summer dividing off a zone at West Hawk Lake, Mr. Acting Chairman, which is the entry point into Ontario where you would see, should there be an outbreak, that you could zone the west and the east and start at that. There is a lot more work to be done on it but I think we have to start as a pilot project and get everybody co-operating.

You talk about zoning prov- inces and that may happen, but we have to start at a point where you can have some control on move- ment across the country. It would be a lot harder with Manitoba. We have examples of zoning around the Riding Mountain Park where there is a zone identified as a TB zone. So there is zoning and I think there is a recognition that we have to continue in this area. I want to introduce Dr. Allan Preston who has joined us at the table here and cer tainly is the one that has been working very hard on all of the disease issues and has represented Manitoba very well. Mr.

Gerrard: I was in the Cartwright-Mather- Clearwater-Pilot Mound-Crystal City area last week- end and there was a lot of concern about a meeting which was held on Friday and what the future is of the delivery of agricultural services and the agri- cultural rep in that area. I wonder if the minister could enlighten us. Ms. Wowchuk: Well, yes, we did have a meeting in Brandon on Friday. I have to say to the member that I was there to speak to the staff and we were in the amphitheatre at the Keystone Centre. When I got in there, I was quite impressed when I saw the number of people there.

You know, they say there are 600 and some people working in the department, but they are all over the province. We had them in this room and it is quite impressive to look at the number of people that are working in Agriculture and the different divisions of Agriculture. I can also tell the member of the enthusiasm by the people there to have the opportunity to talk about the future of the industry, the future of the services that they deliver, the changes in agriculture, and they really appreciated having the opportunity to have input into delivery of services.

I went to that meeting and I said to the staff that I was not bringing pink slips. There have been other places in the past where it has happened, where there has been a budget and pink slips have been handed out. There have been other meetings that people have been invited to by the minister or by someone else in charge and have to hand out pink slips. I told the people in this department this is not about handing out pink slips, this is looking at the departments, all the different divisions, and how we can improve.

There has not been a review of this department since, I believe, in the eighties, about 25 years ago. A lot has changed in agriculture in that time and jobs have changed. The programs have changed. This is a time to think about the programs and look at what we can do better because, ultimately, this is about providing a better service for the people, for our farmers, for the people of rural communities. The department has grown. We started out Agriculture. We changed it to Agriculture and Food.

It is Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives and I think it is a very good fit to have our economic development officers working with our ag reps and with our other people. We did a vision statement for the department in 2001. This is building on that vision statement and looking at how we can build on all those resources that we have in those rural communities. Mr. Gerrard: Now, my question, and this is the last area that I want to address. As the minister knows,

May 3, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1457 the sign-up date for the CAIS program was April 30. It has, I gather, now been moved back. Can the minister tell us, No. 1, what proportion of Manitoba farmers were signed up by April 30? Then I have a couple of follow-up issues. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Acting Chairman, we are joined at the table by Mr. Lorne Martin, who is the acting ADM in the Policy and Economic division. * (16:00) I want to indicate to the member that this is as of April 25, so these numbers are slightly outdated. For the 2003 year, there were 6660 applicants.

For the 2004 year, we have had 7136 applicants. So that is 36 percent of the forms that have been sent out have been returned. We are above average. Other provinces are about 34 percent. Manitoba producers are signing up at a faster rate than other provinces, and 93 percent of those are going for the maximum coverage. Mr. Gerrard: Even though we are about the same rate as the other provinces, that is still a lower rate than I would have expected.

I know that there was fair amount of uncertainty about whether the Province of Manitoba was fully into this program and with its own resources, and I wondered if that had anything to do with the way things were communicated with the lower than might have been expected sign-up. Mr. Chairperson in the Chair Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, if that were the case, we would be substantially lower than other prov- inces. We are, in fact, ahead of other provinces. Producers know we have a program. There has been a lot of work being done in discussion of the program and they are making the decisions.

So to imply that Manitoba has a lower sign-up rate is not accurate. We are ahead of other provinces. Mr. Gerrard: I know that there was a group that was looking at trying to provide advice to farmers that would not be as costly as a chartered accountant, in terms of certain aspects of the program. It was questioned about whether the Province was going to use this approach and the opportunity to partner with individuals or groups who were ready to provide lower-cost advice where that was appropriate, in terms of trying to make sure that that was available. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Chairman, we were just talking about all this wonderful staff that we have through- out the regions, and we have chosen and are using our staff to do workshops and CAIS. We have held some 30 to 40 meetings, some on large-scale, some on small-scale. In fact, as well, at Rural Forum this year, there was a workshop on CAIS, which is a new addition to the forum and a way to provide informa- tion to farmers. With respect to the specific project that the member is referring to, I want to indicate to him, Mr.

Chairman, that we have been working with ACC, who have indicated that they are willing to develop a program, a course, for more in-depth information so that there could be additional training. That project has not yet been completed, but that is the route we have chosen, to use the staff and to work with ACC to develop a further program. Mr.

David Faurschou (P ortage la Prairie): I would like to ask the minister, as a follow-up to the comments she made in regard to KVD and the regulations and restrictions of that particular grading system that has been in place for as long as I can remember: Are you going to effectively lobby the Canadian Wheat Board for further expansion of the identity-preserved programming that has effectively been done in small part with the Warburton contract which specifies specific variety for that particular contracting program?

I will give the reason for background of that, Madam Minister, insofar as the identity-preserved contracting program that has been available to producers in Ontario has seen a significant rise of identity-preserved contracting in that jurisdiction. However, outside of some very, very limited pro- duction in western Canada, that particular type of marketing of new cultivars has not seen anywhere near similar results. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Chairman, as the member is well aware, the Canadian Grain Commission went out and did some work on this particular issue and came back with a study indicating that it would be quite long before anything could be done in this area and we were quite disappointed in that study because we felt that a lot more could have been done.

1458 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 2004 I can indicate to the member that, Mr. Chairman, the four western CARD Councils are leading an initiative to work to replace the KVD system and we are supportive of the work th at they are doing. I met with some of them just r ecently and looked at what the options might be but certainly, as I said to the previous question, this is a very important issue for Manitoba.

As we build our livestock industry, we need those additional crops to be grown so that we can have a feed supply, and with the potential and the desire to build the ethanol industry in this province, we also need those products. We have had discussions with the Wheat Board, we have had discussions with the CARD Councils, and we would like to see this move forward. Mr. Faurschou: I appreciate the minister's answer. Truly I do. However, the time is now to effectively lobby the Canadian Wheat Board for this type of contracting program.

We are all aware of the changes in the seeds industry for in stance that provides for a very specific history of production which affords the contracting company the ability to designate a specific cultivator and be assured that that is what the individual purchaser will be receiving. At the present time, the minister is well aware that we have approximately 70 percent of the con- tainers that are handled here in Manitoba leave Manitoba empty. Identity-preserved type of contract- ing for specific varieties, that resource would be made available and would fit very, very well.

I will say on this KVD program, as late as last December we had a gentleman, Mr. Oleson, from the University of Manitoba state on the record that KVD was a low-cost grading system. That could not be further from the truth. Mr. Chairperson, all of the studies that have been effected by various organizations to the Canadian Wheat breeding industry, the wheat breeding industry will state front and centre that we give up between 12 and 20 percent of potential yield advantage by restricting ourselves to this type of gr ading factor.

So there is a significant cost to western Canada producers to maintain this KVD system, and we as producers can ill-afford to have that costly a system in place today. * (16:10) This is why I asked the minister to be very active in this area because there ar e, and she is well aware, changes in federal minister. There have been changes in different board members and the opportunity to lobby the new board members and potential con- sideration for policy change is here and now, so I would like to leave that with the minister for her response to effect such change. Mr.

Daryl Reid, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Ms. Wowchuk: I want to say to the member that I recognize what he is saying. There is a great change in the industry, new varieties that are out there, but cannot be registered because of the system. We know that the Grain Commission looked at one option. They looked at a voluntary register system; they said that would take too long.

We have to think about our customers that we have now to ensure that the customers continue to get the supply that they need and they are comfortable with that, but we have to also continue to lobby for change, and we have to find a system that will give our customers the comfort that they need but also have a system in place that will allow for the new varieties to be growing. So I say to the member that I have raised this issue before, and I will continue to raise it. Mr. Faurschou: I appreciate the minister's state- ments, and I just want to emphasize that the timing is very critical.

We are losing markets, and as far as any argument to state that pu rity of variety cannot be guaranteed with the current system that we have now, starting with the pedigreed seed growers and through a contracting and certified seed usage and the contractual obligations of the producer under contract to the end user, if there is a glitch in the system, we know exactly who is responsible for it.

There are other consider ations now as well that, with the restricted elevator space and fewer and fewer points of delivery, opportunities to diversify and to try and garner a greater value from the marketplace through this type of contractual arrange- ment is vitally important to the producer, and I once again encourage the minister. I will explain even the more specific. Two new va rieties in extra strong have been recommended for registration, those being CDC Rama and soon to be known as AC Burnside.

Those two varieties cannot be co-mingled with any other variety in the extra strong class of wheat because, if they do, they lose their potential market premium price. Those two new varieties are higher in protein, they have greater flour extraction, higher

May 3, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1459 water absorption, lower ash. They are very desirable varieties, and specific-end users want those varieties rather than anything else in the class.

In order to maximize on those two varieties, and those two varieties will be available to producers within two years, this is a very short time frame in which the department has to make the case be known and these changes made, because Saskatchewan and Manitoba figure to benefit significantly through these advantages, all built on the breeding research that happened right here in Manitoba based upon the old variety Glenlea, which sports the name of the test research farm in which it had its preliminary crossings just south of Winnipeg. Ms.

Wowchuk: I will thank the member for his comments and indicate that, as a province, we will continue to pursue this, but I know the member is aware that no pr ovincial jurisdiction can do this on its own. We have to work with the federal govern- ment, and we will. Mr. Penner: We left a little while ago the CAIS program and some of the numbers that were put out. I was rather surprised at the low number of applicants that we had received, even though the minister took some comfort in probably being one of the higher sign-up provinces.

I do not know whether the sign-up in the CAIS program, the final sign-up in the CAIS program, will be any indication as to how many farmers we really have in this province. Number one, I fail to under- stand why farmers would not sign into this program if they are looking at their long-term interest in their farm operations. Secondly, I think it can be done in a manner now that costs very little money through arrangements through the banks.

The reason I raise this, I would suggest to the minister that she could, as the minister and the department, raise the level of sign-ups, I think, if the minister would choose to write letters of guarantee to the program and to the banks on behalf of farmers. It would only mean–the minister needs to understand this. I am not sure that this is well enough under- stood.

But it only would mean that the Government of Manitoba would guarantee that the portion that the farmers would contribute, that one day, really it is a one-day contribution by farmers into the program, because it goes into the bank on that given day and comes out back to the farmer on that given day, and that is really all that is needed there. If the Premier (Mr.

Doer) and the Government could come to a position where they would write that letter of credit to the banking institutions saying we will guarantee that that money will be there that one day, just to transfer it in and out, and then later on the letter of credit would have to be there again to give comfort if that should happen next time, we would do the same thing. It is silly, in my view, to have farmers put large amounts of money in a deposit account that does nothing for them. They cannot use it; the banks can only use it to further their credits. Mr.

Chairperson in the Chair So I would strongly suggest the minister give this some serious thought. I do not need an immedi- ate answer on this, but it certainly would benefit, I think, the accommodation and give farmers a degree of comfort that they should sign into this. It really constitutes no draw on the provincial treasury and no liability to the provincial treasury. It would only give comfort to the bank and the federal government that this money by number would be there only to come in and out on the same day. There is no financial liability really to the Province on this whatsoever.

As I say, the minister need not respond immedi- ately to this, but I suggest this only that she and her department should give this serious consideration before they say no to it, because it has some sig- nificant benefits to I think encouraging a broad base of farmers to come into the program. * (16:20) Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, I think the member is saying, you know, do not rule out this option, continue to look at it. It is a new program. We continue to look at the various options that are there. But I want the member to be aware that we have met with all the banking institutes, and nobody is asking for this.

Bankers have indicated that they recognize this as a good program fo r the farmers because they will get their money. They are really lending them the money at a very, very reasonable rate. There has not been a demand for anything like this. The member suggests we keep options on the table. We will certainly do that. But I can also say that this has not been raised.

1460 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 3, 2004 When you talk about sign-ups, it is a new program. There has been a lot of work done to promote it, get the information out to the producers. The federal government recognized that the sign-up rate was not as high as people would like it. That is why they have extended the deadline for further sign-ups. Mr. Chairperson: The honourable minister–no, Member for Emerson. Mr. Penner: Well, thank you. I just thought you gave me a promotion, Mr. Chairman. I hope I am not misunderstood.

The requirement, as it stands now under the CAIS program, is that a farmer have an amount of money, as required by the program, in a bank account. It is simply only a number, because the bank is saying, "Well, we will put that number in your account, but, for that number being there, nothing changes, nothing transfers. For that number being there, we will charge you a percent or a per- cent and a half or some percent and three quarters of money." What that actually does, it gives then the bank an ability to borrow out more money.

They can use that as collateral to borrow money, and it is an artificial number really. The deposit account when a draw is triggered under CAIS only brings out that amount of money that is required by the producers. If the producer wants to at the same counter draw the money out and put the money back in, or put the number back in and continue the interest draw, that is really all that is required under that program, because it is his own money and all the Government would do by signing a note saying that, yes, this farmer's money is in place in that account.

Again, it is only a number, but the Government would guarantee that the money will be there to be taken out of the producer's account and put right back in again. So it is a two-minute transfer that is all that is required here. Quite frankly, if the federal government would change its mind and not require a producer to deposit any money would be just as well from a producer's standpoint. It would not cost the federal government and the provincials any more money if there was no producer money in the account in the first place.

I think it is one of the silliest proposals I have ever seen for a requirement of a producer to set aside for instance, a chunk of money; that is what the initial proposal was. A chunk of money could be up to as much as $100,000 sitting in a bank account forever and not doing anything there. It does not achieve anything. It does not give the farmer any line of credit, any further credit ability. It just sits there. It is dead money. I have never seen a proposal like that come from government. So I suggest, Mr.

Ch airman, for serious con- sideration, the minister said she will keep that on the table and consider this, and I would strongly suggest to staff, clearly understand what I am talking about before you say no to it. This would be a great benefit to the producers. I think you could present a model to the rest of the provinces that could be accepted. The federal government would not have a choice but to accept it because the money would be there, in the account, as it will be now if you borrowed an amount of money. Because the money never transfers into the account, it is just a number sitting there.

There is no money sitting in that account. I would strongly suggest you give that some serious consideration and I think you will be amazed at how many people come forward. There are still many producers, that I have talked to, they are of the firm belief that they are going to have to put fairly significant amounts of money into a bank account and then just have it sitting there. They cannot afford it. They are going out to borrow money now for operating loans and they cannot afford to have their own money sitting there doing nothing. I leave it there and if the minister wants to respond to that, she can.

If not, she has said she will consider it and I appreciate that. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, farmers will make their choices. Some farmers are putting their money in. There is a significant amount of money sitting in NISA accounts. There is a sign ificant amount, there is significant money that was in CAIS accounts. In fact, in Manitoba there was about $450 million that people had in CAIS accounts, I am sorry NISA accounts. Some have chosen to move some of that into CAIS accounts. Not everybody has that amount of money.

Some have chosen and will be making arrangements with the banking institutions and then making those arrangements to have at a very low cost have a transaction for money to be available. I know t

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-2-31
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 2nd hansardpdf 31.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	87a0eaa13d694f05de236e2f5b06044dd3ed128f

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).