Manitoba Hansard — 7 March 1975 (Sitting 4, 30th Legislature, 2nd Session)

30-2-4

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10:00 o'c lock, Friday, March 7, 1975 Opening Prayer by Mr, Speaker, 55 MR. SPEAKER: Prese nting Petitions; Reading and Receiv ing Petitions; Pres enting Reports by Stand ing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS HON.

SAMUE L USKIW (Minis ter of Agri culture) (Lac du Bonnet): I wish to table the report of the Milk Control Board of Manitoba; the Annual Report of the Manitoba Agricul tural Credit Corporation; the Annua l Report of the Manitoba Water Services Board and the Annual Report of the Department of Agric ulture. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Co-operatives and Resourc es. HON. HARVEY BOSTROM (Minister of Co-operative Development and Minister respon sible for Lands, Forests and Wildlife Resources) (Rupertsland): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table the report of Moose Lake Loggers Limited for 1973- 74.

I would like to also table the report of Channel Area Loggers Limited, Annual Report, 1973-74. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. BEN HANUSC HAK (Minister of Education) (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, before Orders of the Day, I should like to make an announc ement with respect to grants to school boards for the year 1975. First, the equalization grants which were first introduced in 1973 and increased in 1974 will be conside rably increased for the year 1975.

Honourable members will rememb er that the principle applied is that the amount of the equalization grant per pupil is in inverse pro portion to the as ses sment per pupil in the division and by applying and refining this princ iple, the formula for 1975 will be as follows - and it should also be mentioned, Mr. Speaker , that this scale of grants that I am about to propose will be payable in addition to the $50 per pupil on conditional grants currently in effect.

So the proposed increase is as follows: Where the balanced asses sment per pupil exce eds $1 1, OOO, the per pupil grant will be $40. 00; where the balanced assessm ent per pupil ranges from $1 0, OOO to $1 0, 999, the per pupil grant will be $50. 00; from $9 , OOO to $9, 99 9, it will be $60. 00; from $ 8, OOO to $ 8, 99 9, the per pupil grant is $70. 00; from $7 , OOO to $7 , 999, the per pupil grant is $8 0. 00; and from $6 , OOO to $6, 999, it will be $ 90. 00; from $5, OOO to $ 5, 999, the per pupil grant will be $1 00. 00; and where the balanced asses sment is up to $4, 999, the per pupil grant will be $11 0, 00, With respect to the grants for occu pational entrance courses, a dual formula has been in effect for the past two years and the Public Schools Finance Board has used that formula which would give the greatest advantage to a division conc erned.

However, beginning in the fall term of 1975, a single formula will be introduced which will take into acco unt division enrollments and will provide a differentiated scale of grants which will be more advantageous to the majority of school divisions from the present formulae in the matter of the number of authorized teachers in this category for whom they can earn grants. In rec ognition of the fact that tran sportation costs are increasi ng, the transp ortation grant will increa se fro m a maximum of $1 75 per transported pupil to a maximum of $1 90 per transported pupil for 1975.

With respect to shared services grants, the amount which a division may earn where there are such agreements, will be increased from $7 , OOO to $9 , 300 per authorized teacher. The inc reases that I have just referred to, together with all other grants payable under the Foundation Program , will increase the provinc e's share by an estimated total of $1 6 million over 1974 to school boards.

In view of the fact that tax rebates are payab le to munici palities during the year and that the government is desirous of assis ting school divisions to reduce their interest costs, provision will be made to have the special levy payable by munici palities at earlier dates than has be en the case in the past. At the present time the municipal ities are required to pay 60 perce nt of the special levy for the year on or before November 30th with the remainder payab le on or before January 3lst next following.

For 19 75 , municipalities will be asked to pay 20 perc ent of the special levy on or before July 31 st, a further 20 perc ent on or before September 30th and 20 percent on or before Nov ember 30th.

56 MINISTERIAL STATEMENT March 7, 1975 (MR. HANUSC HAK cont'

d) With respect to foundation levies, the Public Schools Fi nance Board antici pates that the levies will remain at approximately the same level as last year - three mills - on farm and residential property and 33. 9 mills on other assessment. The Public Schools Fi nance Board will be informing school boards as quickly as possible of the additi onal amounts of grants that they can expect to receive in 1975 as a result of these changes. Mr.

Speaker, taking into account the grants payable to school boards in 1975 as a result of these increases together with the property tax reduction, it will again have the effect of pro v__!__ ding approximately 70 percent of the total expenditures of school boards for this year from provincial funds. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr.

Speaker, in acknowledging the statement just made by the Minister of Education, I think I could say without hesitation that this is a statement that has been anticipated and waited by the people responsible for the financing of education in Manitoba in the variou s school divi sions. We have been waiting anxiously to hear this statement and it comes rather at a good tim e because1as most members know, the Manitoba Association of School Trustees are meeting in convention today in the Winnipeg Inn.

This is the statement that the Minister said he would make when he met with a 50-member trustee group on December 16th last, and he said that the government did intend to give sub stantially more money to the school divi sions in the year 1975. Mr. Speaker, while it will be necessary for us to examine in some considerable detail the various proposals made here, we will not be able to comment specifically in that respect until we have had that opportunity.

But I would point out one statement which the Minister was reported to have made in December when he said and he promised that the divisions would not have to raise more money through taxes than they did in 1974. I notice that the average in crease for many --(Interjection)-- Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Educa tion was reported to have given that assurance to the school trustees when they met with him on Monday, December 16th1and I'm sure the Minister of Education knows whether or not he was accurately reported. But , Mr.

Speaker, the increase in the amount that is required to be raised by local levy by the school divisions in Manitoba appears to be in the neighbourhood of 50 percent; in other words the amount of money that they would have required prior to this announcement would have been about 50 percent higher than the previous year. Whether or not this will cover that anticipated increase we will have to examine and certainly we will be able to comment more accurately in the next few weeks. Mr.

Speaker, I thank the Minister for making this announcement at this time because it is a matter of great urgency and great importance to the school divisions of Manitoba. MR . SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of the Honourable Members to the Gallery where we have 82 students of Grade 4 standing of the Donwood School. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Fi rst Minister. On behalf of all the honourable members I welcome you here this morning. Any other Ministerial Statements or Tabling of Reports? The Honourable First Minister. HON.

ED WARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I have still to table certain reports pur suant to statutory requirement. One is the Mental Health Act , or more precisely an Audit or's Report and Fi nancial Statement for the year ended March 31 , 1974 pur suant to the Mental Health Act. The next is the report of the Provincial Auditor to the Assembly and the third is to table, sir, a copy of the Public Accounts, Main and Supplementary Additions. MR . SPEAKER: Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills; The Honourable Member for Thompson. CORRECT IONS MR. KE N DILLEN (Thompson): Mr.

Speaker , I just rise to correct, on a matter of privilege, sir, the Debates and Proceedings, Hansard dated March 5th on Page 15. On the sixth line, starting with "Parties across Ca nada, to gain more control over the world. " That should read, "resources of the world and including the working class". And it is written here that , "for taking dues for their advantage" and what I had said was "which they can us e for their advantage". And further down the page there is a sentence starting with "If there is a devasta ting effect on agriculture in urba n sectors" - and I don't know of any agriculture in the urban

March 7, 1975 CORREC TIONS 57 (MR. DILLEN cont'd ) .. .. . sector. So that what I had said, sir, is "agricultural .. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order. MR. DILLEN: Sir, that should read "agricultural or urban sectors". And further down the page, sir, "a survey compiled by Mr. R. A. Ba ll", should read "Blauel, B la u e l." And, sir , just after the portion on agriculture there is a sentenc e that reads,''lt should be rememb ered that the effect is doubly devastating on the opportunities for the economic development trust".

That should read "thrust"- And on the top of Page 16 the first line of the second paragraph reads,111 have a growing uneasy feeling that many people tend to "thing" of Northern Manitoba" and that should be "t hink" with a 'k'. In the first paragraph of Page 17 it reads, "I do support the concept that it is the function of government" . . . MR. SP EAKER: Order please. We'll bear with the member. I'll give an explanation in a moment. MR. DILLEN: That should read , "I do not support". That is the extent of the correc tions. Sir , I have not been off the reserve that long . . .

I am not castin g any reflections on the people who are transcri bing this. It's probably a fault of my English. MR. SPEAKER: I thank the honourable member for bringing this to our attention. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speak er, I didn't want to interrupt the honourable member while he was spea king because he is relatively new to this Chamber, but I think you'll recognize that the whole procedure is highly irregular and out of order.

The rule of this Hous e is that questions of privilege are raised at the first opportunity, and the first opportunity really was yesterday because the Hansards were printed and were available in our desks yesterday when the House rose. And furthermore, sir, if it's going to become a practice of this House for a member to make wholesale corre ction s of speeches like that I think you'll recognize, sir, that we co uld be taking up a greater part of the day, because very frequently when we look over the trans cripts of Hansard we find that numerous mistakes ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR.

JORGENSON: ... are being made and I think we should come to some conclusion as to whether or not this kind of a practice is going to be permitted on the scale at which it was exercised this morning. MR. SPEAKER: I thank the honourable memb er for his point of view. I should like to indicate that the real problem is the enunciation by the members. I think that our transcribing staff does try to do a very good job, but sometime s it's not only what the memb er is saying but what all other members are saying, of which we've just had an example, and makes it very difficult to hear what is on the tapes.

If everyone is trying to get into the act at the same time then the honourable member who does have the floor is very hard to distinguish from all the other backgrou nd noises, and if the honourable members would co-operate I'm sure we would have very few mistakes to corre ct in the future. The Honourable House Leader. HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Minister of Mines , Resources and Environmental Management) (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I don't wish to belabour the point but I do wish it under stood that an honourable member is entitled to indicate that he has been incorr ectly recorded and if there is a problem - and this was the rule that was set up when the record ing device s were br ought in - he is entitled to go back to the Hansard people, have the tape replayed and the corre ct, if it is agreed that the wording is not as listed in the Hansard, and ce rtainly a thing like "thing" and "think" is an understandable error , the member is entitled to have it properly recorded.

Furthermore, as to the first opportunity, I would think that it's not ex pected that the first thing that a member does is to read his own speech in Hansard, and he made the speech two days ago and he's bringing the matter to our attention Friday morning. I think that that is an indication that he's perfectly sinc ere in wishing the corr ection. Some thing which I would think any member of this House would be entitled to do. MR. SPEAKER : I too do not wish to belabour the point, but I would like to indicate that we have in Manitoba the envious recor d of having the fastest Hansard in Ca nada.

Now we could make it a little more accurate if we had 'Blues' .. . Order pleas e. Order please. We could make it just a little bit slower and have 'Blues' produced inst ead, which would be subject

58 March 7, 1975 (MR. SPEAKER cont'd) .. ... to correction. But that's for the Rules Co mmittee to make a decision on if they so desire. Questions. The Honourab le Member for Fort Garry. ORAL QUE STIONS MR . L. R. (BUD) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Honourable the Minister of Labour. I would like to ask him if he can report to the House that he's had any reports from his conc iliation officers as to any progress in the wage talks between the nursing profession and the hospital administration? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON.

RUSSELL PAU LLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): Yes , Mr. Speaker, the conciliations officers report to me from time to time as to the progress or the lack of progress that is being made in respect of negotiatio ns , in this particular case with the nurses of at least three hospitals in the Greater Winnipeg area. I received a report late yesterday to the effect that a strike vote was being taken by the nurses. I also und erstand that it's been suggested that there's a possibility of informational picketing to take place Monday at the Legislature. MR. SHERMA N: A supplementary , Mr.

Speaker: Co uld the Minister advise whether there is face-to-face con tact between labour and manag ement on the issue at the present time? MR. PAULLEY: I would suggest to my honourable friend , Mr. Speaker, that the normal procedure in collective bargaini ng and negotiations applies in this case. Which is of course meetings between manage ment and labour on industrial disputes. MR. SHERMAN: A further supplementary, Mr.

Speaker, and I thank the Honourable Minister for his informa tion, but may I ask the Minister whether face-to-face contact is taking place rather than a go-between type of activity on the part of the conciliators as reported earlier in the week? MR. PAULLEY: As I indicated , Mr. Speaker, the normal process is going on in this industri al dispute and certainly there would be face to face consultations with the nur ses and the managemen t of the respective hospitals. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr.

Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture and it relates to the reply or the letter promised the Co w-Calf Producers Organization. Would the Minister indicate whether that letter has gone out to that organization. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: It's gone out or going out this morning , Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Speaker, a secon d question: In view of the fact that I understand there is a postal strike, is there any possibility that this will hinder the letter being received or put into the hands of the organiza tion? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: Well I would think , Mr. Speaker, that if there is a strike on that)obviously things will be hindered throughout the province generally speaking , but there is no impossibility on the part of those int erested to retrieve same from my office, or a copy thereof. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge): Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Health and Social Development but in his absence from the House perhaps I could direct the question to the First Minister. In relation to the pending labour dis putes between the nurses and the hospitals, can the First Minister tell us whether the govern ment has formulated any specific plans, contingency plans, in order to maintain proper hospital services in the event that a strike does occur? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, there are two points here: First of all, it would be extremely unwise to indic ate in advance an d hypothetically what contingency plans , the ex tent to which there are con tingency plans, etc. during a time of concen trated collective bar gaining. The secon d point , of course, is that the Hospital Commission is charged by statute with responsibi lity for maintaining in place, at all times, various con tingency capabilities. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rou ge. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the First Minister again: Has the

March 7, 1975 59 ORAL QUE STIONS (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd ) ..... government made any offer to the Hospital Services Commission to provide additional funds in order for them to provide any extraordinary services that may be required during this particular emergency period ? MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker , I think that the Minister of Health would have to advise as to whether any such request has in fact been made or received. I personally am not aware. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. Again to the First Minister.

Has the government prepared any plan in order to help the hospitals in their negotiation by offering an easi ng on the budget restrictions that were formerly set on hospital budgets, in order that they may properly deal and negotiate with the nurses within a proper fi scal base ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Firs t Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker , I could respond really in a number of ways to that kind of question but I think I will have to repeat , sir , that it is unwise to draw hypothetical problems for oneself in advance and during collective barg aining. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Bra ndon West. MR. McG ILL: Mr. Speaker, my question was intended for the Minister responsible for Transportation, but in his absence perhaps I can direct it to the Honourable the First Minister, and it relates to the situation in respect to air service in Western Manitoba. As the Minister knows, that area has been without air service of any kind for more than a year , and we have had some indication s from the Province of Manitoba that such an air service would be re sumed, a co mmuter service perhaps as early as April lst. MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR.

McG ILL: Ca n the Mini ster give the House any indication of when this service is likely to be resumed for that area of the province? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Firs t Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker , the Minister of Industry and Commerce is charged with the as signment relating to western air service , and I can only indicate to the Honourable Member from Br andon that April 1 was a sort of target date in that regard and I believe that there is still some negotiation to finalize with respect to the degree of co st-sharing , if any is required , as between the provinces of Sas katchewan and Manitoba, and the Government of Ca nada. MR. McG ILL: Mr. Speaker , a supplementary question relating to air service.

With respect to the recent announcement of the.Air Transport Committee denying the application of Transair to provide direct jet service for Sas katchewan and Western Manitoba to Toronto, is the Province of Manitoba concerned about this denial, and are they prepared to take any action to have this decision of the Air Transport Committee reviewed? MR. SCHREYER: Well Mr. Speaker, as the Honourable Member for Bra ndon can appre ciate , I am not responsible in a day to day manner for air transport matters. The Minister of Industry and Commerce I'm sure would be ab le to reply more speci fic ally.

I would only say that the Air Transport Com mittee of Ottawa, of the Government of Canada, must of course have some concern about fragmentation of commercial air services and I, for one, find it diffic ult to second -guess their decisions whenever it doesn't please us for pa rochial reasons. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR . HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russell): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to add ress my question to the Firs t Minister in his capacity as Minister of Finance.

I would like to ask him if the government will be giving consider ation to exemption from the two ce nt pro posed gasoline tax to the various school divisions for the operation of the school buses. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Firs t Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speak er, I don't know what sleight of hand in mathematical calculations my honourable friend sees here.

There is no need to do that kind of exempting any more than there would be any need to, once having made that kind of exemption, to then deduct the amount of grants that we have just announced today will be increase d to the various school divisions in the provinc e. The simpler way to do it is to minimize rather than maxi mize the exceptions. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for As siniboia. MR. STEVE PA TRICK (As siniboia): Mr. Speaker , I have a question for the First

60 March 7, 1975 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. PAT RIC K cont'd) .. .. . Minister. I wonder if the First Minister can indicate to the House if the govern ment's giving any consideration to extend the Pensioners Home Repair program. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SC HREYER : Well, Mr. Speaker, I believe that it has been announced some time ago that there would be a time hiatus as between discontinuation of one cycle of the Pensioner Home Repair program and commencement of the next. I believe that there will very likely be a re-continuation at some future date in 1975 or 1976 , but not at the moment. MR.

PATRICK: A supplementary, and perhaps the Minister may not have the infor mation at hand, but can he indic ate or give the House the information, how many applications have been received and have been declined because of the discontinuance of the program? MR. SC HREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think that is something more in the nature of an Order for Return or, at the very least, a case of taking notice of the question and providing that information at a later date.

I would think just offhand that there have been so mething in the order of 35, OOO to 40, OOO Pensioner Home Repair projects actually carried out, that is to say relating to that many - 24 , OOO I am advised - relating to that many pensione r households. MR . PA TRICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. My question was specifically, how many applications have been received but were not dealt with because of the program being discontinued? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Ro uge. MR . AXWORTHY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Education.

While welcoming the anno uncement on the equalization gran ts , I wonder if the Minister could tell us whether the Department of Education is preparing any special assistanc e to school divisions which must undertake special programs because of peculiar characteristics of ... school children in their district such as handicapped , or programs for drama, art, music and so on, which are now being discon tinued for lack of support. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: I don't know , Mr.

Speaker, whether I would include talent, skills and abilities such as drama, art and music as being indicative of peculiar characteristics of students . However , I do wish to indicate that the matter of enri chin g our program to provide for special needs of students is a matter that is under consid eration by our department. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR . AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Would the Minister also indic ate whether the Department is con sidering and preparing any assistance for those school divisions whose secondary schools are attempting to implement the CO RE report, which requires a higher diversification of teaching needs and therefore a higher degree of support in order to provide those wider range of skills. MR . HANUSCHAK: I believe, Mr.

Speaker, that some time within the next couple of days , when Hansard is published , or whenever the statement that I have made a few moments ago will appear in printed form, wherever else , and the honourable member will then have an opportunity to examine it from a point of view of the financ ial impact that it would have on the school divisions, he will find that it will, in fact, offer the school divisions the resources to arrange their priorities and plan their program along the lines as he suggested , to meet the needs of their community. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR.

AXWORTHY: I have a supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. Can the Minister tell us whether in fact the Department of Education, in light of its new financial program , is prepared to offer the assistance that they cancelled last year for the repair and maintenance of Inner Ci ty schools such as Daniel Mcintyre Co llegiate and other high schools which are suffering certain deterioration and need up-grading? MR . HANUS CH AK: Perhaps, Mr.

Speaker, as - - you know, the honourable member has been in this House for a number of years , and I think that if he will check back in Hansard and the Votes and Proceedings, he will find that there is a difference between the operating estimates and capital supplied.

March 7, 1975 61 ORDERS OF THE DAY - THRONE SPEE CH DEBATE MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the day. On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Th ompson , and the amend ment thereto by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR , GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prai rie): Well, Mr. Speaker , before I begin the more serious part of my remarks I would like to congratulate you on ass uming your office once again. I would also like to extend co ngratulations to the three new minist ers and I hope that they are productive in their work.

I don't particularly wish them a long term of office but I hope that while they' re there that they are able to look with satisf action at whatever they are doing. To the mover of the Throne Speech, I wa s rather startled at some of his remarks when he spoke about his cont inuing class war. I suppose that his remarks in that regard wouldn't particularly make any prospective investor in the province feel very good, but then, as long as the Prem ier ca n keep that group of the NDP in line and explain to the proposed investors that there perhap s is not as much to worry about as the Member for Thompson might wish.

I'm reminded of ce rtain government progra ms , and one that comes to mind is that both Federal and Provincial Governments are very active in proposing programs to eliminate poverty , and in the jargon it's known as the War on Poverty, and so far as we can establish in nearly all of these programs , the only true winners are the warriors in the War on Poverty.

So I might say that the Memb er for Thompson in his war against the cl ass distinction s of this provinc e, I think perhaps he may be winning his war , because he has a government ca r parked outside, he has a good government salary, and as far as I can see he's winning the war as from his particular point of view.

With respect to the secon der, I enjoyed very much his spirited defenc e of Autopac , and I must say that while the defenc e sagged in places , I must admire the secon der for his courage to touch such a thorny subj ec t, and I must give him full cre dit for having the courage to try to defend the indefensible. Mr. Speaker , in reviewing the Throne Speech, we find that there are some programs passe d in the government's administration that we do not com pletely approve of and there are some programs that we do feel that there is merit and should be con tinued and expanded.

How ever , the question of ch anging the ground rules under which the MDC operates by maki ng it into something other than a lender of last resort , appears to be a ch ange dictated by a public relations consu ltant rather than by an economic adviser. How does the government explain the involvement of the MDC with Misawa, a large multi national corporation whose cre dit ratings surely must be sufficient to remove it from the neces sity of dea ling with last resort lenders.

Indeed, going as far back as MDC involve ment with Simplot Chemic al, does anyone really believe this com pany could not obtain any other financing ? It is our opinion that the ch ange in MDC legislation that this government will seek, is designed to exc use the mis manag ement of the MDC by the NDP Government. The public of Manitoba was aroused by the Conservative mi smanagement in the CFI deal, and that mismanagement was so horrendous that the Cons ervative Party still has to establish its credibility in fi scal matters before it can be seriously regarded as an alternative.

After six years of NDP administ ratio n, the reputation of the MDC has not been enhanced at all. In fac t, it is possibly even lower than what it was after the CFI details were revealed. What the NDP has done with the MDC is nickel and dime the taxpayers to death, except that the nickels and dimes are of the order of 25 million plus - and I'm referring to Saunders, Flyer and other companies.

The total value of dollar losses by the MDC under the NDP is rapidly approac hing the CFI total, and now the government is attempting to bail itself out by cla iming a phoney restriction as the cause for its financial difficulties in the MDC. The Liberal Party agrees that chang es are necess ary with regard to the MDC. Indeed, we have so argued over the last several years. However, the type of changes we believe necessa ry involve a far greater re-examination of the role of MDC than is suggested in the Throne Speech.

We believe that the financial blunders of the MDC are so great that serious con sider ation must be given to winding up its operation. The government should admit the errors it has perpetuated through the MDC, ac ce pt its losses before they become even greater , and start a new agency with a clean slate and a realistic business approach to government involve ment. After all, Mr. Speaker , we have a federal agency, the Industrial Development Bank, that is doing much the same work, and they have lots of money available for loans in the

62 March 7, 1975 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR. G. JOHNSTON cont'd) ... .. Province of Manitoba in the high risk field. The emphasis of a new agency should be on a small business development. Indeed, the Small Business Assis tance Program of the Departm ent of Industry and Commerce comes far closer towards meeting the real needs of the business economy of Manitoba than the MDC in vestment program to date has.

The Liberal Party believes that loans by this new agency should be calculated to help small busi ness concerns throughout the province, those concerns that are the very backbone of our provincial economy, rather than the large corporate busi nesses which have been the focal point for the MDC. The artificial stimulation of large cor porate enterprises is more properly in the jurisd iction of those who have the capacity to absorb the cost of failure.

Th at type of risk should be borne by the Federal Government, if indeed it should be borne by any level at all, for artificial stimulation of industry in the absence of economic rationale is always a dangerous practice, and the history of MDC in Manitoba over the last eight years clearly shows this to be so. The large multi national companies of today, the ones we all complain about, did not start out with loans of millions of dollars. Time Incorporated started with a borrowed capital of $50, OOO and two enterprisi ng young men.

We are not suggesting that we try to develop large international corporations in Manitoba but what we do suggest is that you are more likely to get buoyant industria l growth by encouraging people with small loans than by finanCing large enterprises with millions of dollars at ri sk. We are cognizant of the limited scope for Provincial Government action in dealing with the problems of inflation. However, there is scope for some action to blunt the effect of in flation, and once again the NDP Government has failed to set out any intentions in this regard.

We are on record as being the first party to advocate some reduction in the sales tax, that most inequitable of all taxes. We advocated this position prior to the last election and we continue to advocate this position today. The sales tax can and must be scaled down, and we recommend a reduction of two points as being consistent with the ability of the treasury to handle the total revenue reduction and, at the same time, being a significant blunting of the inflationary spiral affecting all Manitobans but particularly those who are on low and fixed income.

In order to reduce the sales tax, more encouragem ent must be given to business and industry to grow and expand, thus creating more jobs and more taxes, both corporate and individual, which will accrue to the provincial treasury. Further to the problem of inflation, the whole area of costs of credit is open to some Provincial Government action. We believe that the costs of credit purchases are ultimately added on to the costs of the consumer goods.

This is obviously discri minatory to the con sumer who pays cash, and we had hoped that legislation would be introduced to ensure that cash-paying consumers would receive a price discount equal to the cost of credit purchases. One area that ha s received no mention in the Throne Speech is the increasing clouds of recession that are appearing on the horizon. While this province will experience some time lag in the effects of this latest economic upheaval, we face the possibility of confronting both inflation and recession at the same time.

In light of this possibility it seems strange that the government would not see fit to mention some moves of an anti-recessionary nature; namely, we wonder at the de-emphasis of job-creating programs at this critical period of the economic cycle. Surely some province�wide employment strategies and programs should be advanced rather than simply relating such programs to one area of the province - the North. Indeed, this government has always claimed that its employment and training programs were specifi cally designed to deal with unemployment in Northern Manitoba, particularly among the native peoples.

No one argues with the objectives, but the need to restate them in the Th rone Speech leads one to the conclusion that this program in the past has not been all that effective. Our Party will advance by resolution or bill specific programs relating to Manpower Tra ining and Employment that will be applicable throughout the province, and indeed in the Ci ty of Winnipeg, because we feel that the area of Manpower Training has been sadly neglected by this government. The Throne Speech indicates that a separate ministerial organization will be responsible for programs related to lands, forests and wildli fe.

We are not particularly overjoyed at the prospect of yet another ministerial organization, particularly when one considers the attendant costs. However, if there is need for another ministry, surely it is in the area of human re sources rather than physical resources. We will advocate in the strongest possible terms the

March 7, 1975 63 THRONE SPEECH D EBATE (MR. G. JOHNSTON cont'd) ..... needed emphasis on human development rather than physical development. Su rely the area of lands, forests and wildlife can be adequately ad ministered under existing organizations. We will attempt to convince the government to create, as an alternative, a separate ministry relating to manpower, incorporating functions of manpower training and development that are scattered through several existing provincial ministerial departments. The objective will be a co-ordinated approach to manpower de velopm ent in the Province of Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, I turn to the field of agriculture. This government has made mention in the Throne Speech of problems facing beef producers in Manitoba. However, new programs are necessary in order to deal with the cost-price squeeze that many beef producers currently face. Clearly, in 1975 it's going to be a crisis year for beef producers and we know that how they are concerned was expressed a few days ago here in the Legislative Building. The beef producers obviously feel the government does not have a workable solution to their problems.

Thus I am formally asking the government to call together the Standing Committee of Agriculture to present and accept advice from others to try and solve this problem. Mr. Speaker, during the land commission hearings I was interested to hear the Minister of Agriculture say, at one period during the hearings, that he wouldn't be adverse to the day when he could see the Province of Manitoba owning 10, OOO farms, I believe was the figure he used. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the program that the government is already in of land-lease and sale after the lease, is already encountering some opposition in the farm segment of Manitoba. Well, I think I'm being fair to the government when I say "some oppositi on". I would suggest that the opposition is in the maj ority of the farm people to the program. So I would think that the government would take a second look at this program. The main complaint that I have found as a memb er of the committee is, No. 1, the farmers who buy and lease between them selves are afraid of another competitor, namely the government.

The other point that they fear is that eventually government will have control of more and more land. So my suggestion to the Minister of Agricul ture is that he revise the program to allow the farmers who start out by leasing because they can't afford to buy, any time after the first year give them the oppor tunity to purchas e the land instead of making them wait the five years. --(Interjection)-- Well - I'm asked by one of these members opposite, what is liberal policy on that ? I'm trying to be fair to the government.

The program has some merit but there's a lot of opposi tion to it. --(Interjection)-- Well, I just suggested a modification. I'm not totally against the program, but I'm suggesting a modification. Mr. Speaker, in the field of health and social service: This government must address itself to the question as to how to meet the rising expectations of citiz ens regarding the delivery of health services and, at the same time, deal with the increasing inflationary pres sure on the cost of delivery of those services.

The practice of imposing budget ceilings on hospitals may meet the inflationary pressures, but at the expense of delivery of services. This type of trade-off which the government seems content to continue, really is not tolerable to Manitobans. The result of this trade-off is seen in shortages of hospital beds, and indeed shortages of staff to operate the facilities we already have.

We will addr ess ourselves - I'm talking about we three - to this question as to whether the government is rationing health services to the citizens by its ad hoe budget restraints and lack of co-ordinated planning in the health care field. We see the need for a more clear definition of priorities in this whole area, a plan as to how the priorities will be financed as well. We realized that when the government changed ministers that there would be some time lag in this, and we understand that, but the problem is so pressing that it can't be pushed aside indefinitely while waited upon. Mr.

Speaker, in the field of energy and resource: We have long looked for real leader ship from the NDP government in the whole field of energy and resources, Unfortunately, all too often this leadership has been lacking. On the positive side it's a good idea to introduce new technology, such as a nuclear reactor idea, sufficiently far in advance of operational functioning in order to complete proper impact studie s and analyze the programs.

We hope that there is suffici ent lead time in the government's introduction of the ten-year time horizon, and we will press for further details during this session concerning the specific time Manitoba Hydro foresees utilizing nuclear reactors to generate electricity. It must be clear to all that we are in a period of limited energy resources and those

64 March 7, 1975 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR. G. JOHNSTON cont'd) ... .. resources that are available come at a high cost. We believe that governments should lead society by action as well as by statement. Thus, it is di sappointing to comment on the total lack of leadership of the NDP government in the area of energy conservation. Reducing Manitoba's dependence on fossil fumes is a worthwhile ob jective. However, logic tells us that the complementary programs are also necessary in order to conserve the renewable or the non-renewable energy supply, and in this area the government hasn't been very active.

It's a well-known fact that energy, specifically fuel, is conserved if cars are restricted in speed, yet this government has failed to introduce a mandatory 55 miles-an-hour speed limit for its fleet of government vehicles. Perhaps civil servants are so pressed for time that they have to travel faster, but I doubt that. And indeed, the lower speed limit would also be safer. I see the Federal Government is going to ask the provinces to institute lower speed limits, and surely the government could take the lead and begin at home first before they ask the citi zen s of the province to comply with lower speed limits.

In the same area of energy conservation, this government should be financing research into methods of construction that will allow minimum energy utilization for both heating and cooling in its construction projects. (The Minister of Public Works just said that they are. ) I would ask the Minister of Public Works if he could tell us how efficient the Woodsworth Build ing is in thi s regard. I have heard that the large glass surfaces and the construction are not conducive to saving of fuel and not conducive to saving of energy for air- conditioning. --(Interjection)-- No.

The Minister perhaps could answer during his estimates or he can answer after I'm through speaking. Mr. Speaker, I turn to the problem of the city core development. The Liberal Party has some great concerns regarding the government's proposal to re-develop the core area of the Ci ty of Winnipeg. I say "concern" because we as yet have not received the detai ls. How ever, it appears that the NDP is again concerned only with the physical side of the problem and not the human side. Dealing with the human side of the problem, we will require more than just citizen partici pation in the deci sion-making process.

I hasten to add that citizen partici pation in this redevelopment scheme is in an absolute minimum condition and necessary. However, we feel that resources should be allocated to better the human resources of the area. rm referring to manpower development, community employment, tax incentives for home repair throughout the whole inner city, and indeed providi ng funds so the infrastructure of not only the core area but the whole inner city could be improved. The Member for Fort Rouge wi ll advance in some detail the Liberal ideas in this regard. But before I leave that subject, Mr.

Speaker, I think it would be advisa ble if I were to answer the Member for St. Johns on behalf of the Liberals, when he said in his speech yester day that he doubted if many members of the Conservative Pa rty had much favour with the public housing policy. Well, I might say that for some years the Liberals have advocated the previous administration to go into this field when the money was made available from Ottawa, and we stand four square behind the concept of public housing.

I might also say that the gov ernment might also concern itself with trying to get people into the position of home ownership as well, that public housing is not the only answer in this regard. We will be interested in knowing further details of the government's intention to intro duce a new provincial Planning Act. Is this the first step toward regional government in rural Manitoba , or is it the introduction of regional planning offices, a device to enable various municipalities to assemble data to counteract provincial government decisions that adversely affect their area ?

A clear statement of purpose and powers and the powers needed in the new Planning Act is requir ed, and we will be watching for the government to explain this in more detail. I have suggested a number of policy and program alternatives that I believe could be enacted. My colleagues will advance other proposal s for consideration. We believe in con structive opposition with positive alternatives, and I have attempted to outline some of our proposals while at the same time providing some criticis m where I feel it is necessary. I sincerely hope the government will take heed of our comments. However, Mr.

Speaker, I feel I must move non-confidence in this government because of its actions in the mi shandling of Autopac and its lack of concern in the Throne Speech in matters relating to the effects of inflation to the citizens of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, before

March 7, 1975 65 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR. G. JOHNSTON cont'd) .... . the last election, I know I spoke to many people who stated , quite bluntly, that they were going to vote NDP because of the wonderful deal they were receiving from Autopac , and I might say there were many, many young people that said the same thing. MR. HARRY SHAFRA NSKY (Radisson): They're still saying it. MR. G. JOHNSTON: The Member for Radisson says they're still saying it. I wonder if he's talked to his cons tituent s lately. A MEMBER: No , he never does. He never talks ... MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, the First Minister said a few weeks ago that the five percent reduction that was made just prior to the 1973 election was a mistake. MR. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Oh no, it wasn 't a mistake. It brought forth the desire to vote . . . MR. G. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Speaker, if the First Minister admits to a mistake of that magnitud e, then I'm sure he will not take offence if he's severely censored for that blunder. A MEMBER: It was a mistake if it didn't produce the desired number of seats. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I find it hard to believe that the Mini ster respon sible for Autopac , knowing full well the corporation was losing money - and I'm sure he would inform his colleagues in cabinet of that fact - that in the face of this the government took the cynic al action , the cynical po litical action it did, in reducing rates, is one of the most cynical steps I've seen in this House in 12 years. Ce rtainly it paid off in votes. MR. ENNS: When is the next reduction in Autopac rates going to be, Gordon? Have you ... ? MR. G. JOHNSTON: Well, I would suggest 1975, 1976 , somewhere in there. MR .

ENNS : Late fall of '77 or spring .. . MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I want to read two letters into the record from a con stituent of mine who is an average citizen, who drives a car, and he wrote a letter to the Minister and wanted to know the answ er to certain questions. Perhaps the letter may not have been friend ly, but the Minister wrote back about a three-line letter thanking the gentleman for his letter, but the Minis ter stated that his sense of Ch ristian charity would not allow him to an swer the letter because of the tone in which it was written.

And here is the second letter that this gentleman has written to the Minister, and I wish to read it into the record, because I believe he speaks for many thousands of Manitobans: "To Mr. W. Uru ski, 1014- 330 Portage Avenue , Winnipeg. Sir, this will ackno wledge receipt of your dated, unregistered letter, received in my office Fe bruary 27th, 1975. "I would like to commend you for admitting to a sense of Ch ristian charity.

However, I suspect that your refusal to deal with the content of my registered, undated letters, is more a continuation of your policy of withholding from the public the true cost of Autopac than it is an expression of Christian charity. You know , as well as I, that to properly assess the cost of Autopac it is necessa ry to consider the basic premiums , less the cost of the plates, and add this to the surcharge on driver's licen ce, trailer licence, and the cost to the taxpayers of the accumulated deficit including all subsidies , hidden or otherwise.

To this must be added the proposed two cent tax on gas, being brought up in the current session of the Legislature, and when all of these factors are taken into cons ideration , your repeated public statements about the comparative cost of A utopac becomes irresponsible. "I note that motorcyclists are the latest group to receive their minimal increase of 90 percent. "Your obvious attempts to mislead the public by playing the rating game will only be exposed when all the information is available to the public , who suppo sedly own Manitoba Public Insurance Cor poration.

Though it is encouraging to note your concern for Christian charity, I may point out that included in the essence of Christian charity are the qualities of responsibili ty and honesty, and when you make public all the facts regarding the costs of Autopac and acknowledge responsib ility for the campaign to hide those facts from the public, I will take seriously your claim to Ch ristian charity. Till then , I accept your letter and your refusal to answer the questions contained in them as simply another example of your contempt for the public who supposedly own the Cor poration. "I repeat the questions: l.

Who prepared the brochure that accompanied the renewal

66 March 7 , 1975 THRONE SPE ECH DEBATE (MR. G. JOHNSTON cont'd) ... .. forms ? 2. Who approved or authorized it in its final form? 3. How much did it cost ? 4. How much is the over-all average incr eases in rates for '75 for Au topac premiu ms? 5. How much revenue is received from the various surcha rges on driver's licences and trailer licenc es ? When these are included in the premiums , what is the com parison with other schem es, private or bureaucratic ? 6. How much additional rev enue is anticipated from the proposed two ce nts tax on gasoline ? 7.

What has been the per capita cos t to the taxpayer for all the accumula ted deficits , and in terms of subsidi es, debt charges and fiscal write-offs ? 8. What is the Corporation's policy regarding agents who stayed out of Autopac , received compensa tion, and later became authorized agents ? When was this policy decided and by wh om?" The final paragra ph in the letter, Mr. Speaker: "Hopefu lly, answers to these questions will come through the Legislature, where it is more difficult to avoid them or mi slead the elected repres entatives of the people.

You might be interested in knowing that the original Greek word from which our word "c harity" comes ha s, among other meani ngs, this one - and I quote: 'a commiss ion graciously devolved by God upon a human agent'. We are not yet being ruled by divine right but perhaps there is a moral here for the public and for Autopac agents." Now, Mr. Speaker , the accom panying letter, I'll read it and perhaps the Minister will be able to give these answers, although we don't know whether he's going to pres ent estimates in the House or not this year. "Dear Mr. Johnston: Enclose d is a copy of letter to Mr.

Uruski in reply to one he wrote to me, a co py of which he sent to you. I am serious in my attempt to find answers to the ques tions listed in the letter regarding Autopac policy and rate s. Perhaps you can suggest where such information might be availa ble to the public , or perhaps you can rai se some of the ques tions on the floor of the Legislatur e. Mr. Uruski's answer to my letters indicates the con tempt he has for the public , who supposedly own Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. There is nothing unch arita ble in my request, nor was there in the original letter.

It seems some members of the government feel they are above critic ism and to raise critical questions is seen as an uncharitable act. If you can help in any way to help me find answers to these questions, I would appreciate your help." And it's signed Reverend Rentz, Portage la Prairie. So , Mr. Speaker , I move that the motion be further amended by adding the following words: A.

That this House further regrets that Your Honour's government has, by manipulation of the Mani toba Public Insurance Corporation for political purposes , caused a serious lack of trust by the people of Manitoba in this government' s acti ons. B. That this government has failed to reduce any taxes to help reduc e the im pact of inflation on the people of Manitoba. MOTION presented. . . . . . continued on next page

March 7, 1975 67 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. MR . EARL McKELLAR (Souris-K illarney): Mr. Speaker, if nobody else cares to speak, I'd like to move adjournment. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gimli . MR. JOHN C. GOTTFRIED (Gimli): Mr . Speaker, in keeping with the time-honoured tradition observed in this Chamber, I would like to, first of all, congratulate you for your retention of the highest office in this Asse mbly, and to also extend my same wishes to the Honourable Member from Logan for his retention in like manner of the office of Deputy Speak er.

And I would like to further commend you, both of you, for the fine way in which you have conducted the affairs in this House over the past year, and I am sure that you will continue to do so during this session. I would like to also congratulate the mover and the seconder of the Speech from the Throne for the fine manner in which they have made their presentation. I would also like to congratulate here the three members of our caucus who have been promoted to the Treas ury Bench. I am sure that they'll be able to continue to serve their constituency in the fine manner in which they did prior to the promotion.

But I would like to further add, in the case of the Member from St. Boniface, my congratulations there to him for having achieved the most noteworthy event of having turned about a tie in St. Boniface that has long been tied to the coattails of the old-line parties and has brought that constituency into the NDP fold. I think that has been a tremendous achievement, something we can all feel proud of. And now I would like to turn my attention to the other side of the Chamber and con gratulate also the Member from Brandon West for his promotion to the Deputy, the Assi stant to the Leader of the Opposition.

And I don't know just quite how to word this, but I believe that it's a promotion also from the Member from Lakeside. I consider it a promotion because I hope that sometimes in the not too distant future he will be elevated to the second or the third row, and in that elevation I hope that the psychosomatic effect on his body will also have some effect on the mental capacity and if it's freedom that he wants, and if that' s what he's looking for, then goodness I think we have room on this side, we might welcome him.

But I don't want to deal too hars hly with the Member from Lakeside, in fact I'd like to compliment him, but I think what has happened there is due primarily to a malady that I would like to term as 'Spivakiti s'. In this particular malady you have an overworking or the overexertion of the body's defence mechan isms . First of all you have to have something to be protective about but then as you work on this for a period of approximately five years well then you begin to turn on your close associates and friends, and that's exactly I think what happened in the case of the Honourable Member from Lakeside.

He's really a nice guy, yes, and so I wouldn't deal too.harsh ly with him. We on this side of the Chamber have had to put up with 'Spivaki tis' for a number of years and partic ularly in the recent election that was held in Gimli Constituency. There last year the Conservatives were resoundly beaten. They were most decisiv ely, but it was something that they couldn' t accept, and with 'Spivakitis' on the pr'.)wl they saw all sorts of things behind every little fence post and every stump in the constituency. And if you were to read the list of allegations that were published in one of the local papers . . . MR.

EN NS: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Lakeside state his point of order. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I regret to interrupt the honourable member but it is an accepted House rule that we refer to honourable members in this Chamber by their constituency. I realize that he is perhaps playing arouc1d .vith that rule in his reference to my Leader in the manner and the way in which he is, I suspect, so that I suggest, sir, that you may wish to ask the honourable member to refrain from dJ ing so. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I respect the honourable memb er's objection but I think that what the Honourable Member for Gimli is trying to do is to coin a word out of a name. He is coining a disease, 'Spivakit is' . MR . SPEAKER: Order please. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'm being perfectly serious. It may be that the honour able member may regard it in bad taste. It may be that that is the honourable memb er's

68 March 7, 1975 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR. GREEN con t'd) ..••. opinion, but in terms of a person delivering an addre ss I would find it difficult to argue if somebody on the other side used the name Green and coined a phrase out of it other than referring to an honourable member in the House by his name of Spivak. Now I'm not trying to exercise any judgment as to whether the honourable member thinks that the device that the Member for Gimli is using is effective or in good taste . I'm not commenting on that. That• s his j udgment to mak e, but it is not the reference to another member by name.

At least that's my opinion, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gimli proceed. MR. GOTTFRIED: Mr. Speaker, I accept the crit icism and I promise not to mention the word again. It may be contag ious . But moving on to the elec tion that was recently held in Gimli and the recent contraven tion. I believe that this Chamber is owed some explanation because it cert a inly didn't appear in the papers.

In fact one of the newspapers published all of the allegations that were made in the contravention and has yet to publish the judge's statement on those allegations, leaving the people in the community with a false impression that certain things did actua lly take place when in fact they did not. Now, what I want to say is this, that in June of '7 3 the Conservative, if you want to call them the Conservative group, because they were a tattered group indeed.

They were made up of approximately 15 or 16 hundred Conservatives, 15 or 16 hundred Liberals and a few strays, to make a grand total large enough to, so to speak, challenge the riding. And what I object to most strongly is the fact that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition has appeared in public on recent occas ions to tell the public that his vote has inc reased. True, but the political standing of the party, the membership standing cert ainly has not. I defy him to find more than 15 or 16 hundred Conservatives in that constituency.

And everybody knows that before that election the GG boys were at work and telling us direct ly that they would throw the combined forces of the Liberals and the Conservatives against the NDP. There is no doubt about it, the former Leader of the Liberal Party stood up in this Chamber and told us how ash amed he was of the fact that some thing like this did take place. So then how in the world can you claim that there are 3, 400 Conservatives in Gimli constituency. I'm proud of that cons tituency and I wouldn't want a fact like that to be known. Sure there were 3, 400 votes but not 3, 400 Conservative s.

A MEMBER: There's 4, OOO there now . . . MR. GOTTFRIED: I dis agree with you and I think you will find that your statement is not correct. Now I want to deal further with another aspect of that election. Just prior to the election it was a known fact that there would be a saw-off, and it was also a known fact amongst the Conservatives that if they could possibly swing another five seat s to their side well then we'd be in trouble.

So it was obvious their program, as I see it, was simply an attempt to try and get into five constituencies that they thought they might be able to topple and in those constituencies particularly to have the NDP facing a lone Conservative, have it a two-way fight, a Conservative with the Liberal back ing. And to do this of course there had to be certain trade-offs. Understandably, must have been, must have been, that's how it wa s. But in the constituencies where the NDP were faced by a Liberal of course it was a cinch.

It was in the constituencies where the NDP were faced by a Conservative that the real battle was fought, and it was done in five consti tuenc ies.

And these are the five: The first one was Rossm ere, the constituen cy held by our Premier; the seco nd one was in Transcona, the constituen cy held by the Deputy Premier; and the third one was in Selkirk constituency, the constituency held by the - you might call him the pretender to the Throne, or the hopeful whatever it is, next in line, anyways there were visions of that; and the next one was held by my honourable friend here holding the cons tituency of Wellington; and the fifth was mine Gimli, Gimli constituency. These are the five.

And you'll notice that in the five consti tuen cies four were held by Ministers or former Ministers, and out of these four certainly being a Minister, I don't care how you put it, it's worth 500 to 1, OOO votes. But not in Gimli. Gimli went into the electi on alone, Gimli went into the election alone and came out on top. So I consider the victory in Gimli to be one of the most outstanding victories of this last election. --(Interjection)-- It is. And I think it's the one that's thrown you people the most. When the old line parties - you're both the same - when you lost St. Boniface you felt badly but when you

Ma rch 7, 1975 69 THRONE SPEEC H DEBAT E (MR. GOTTFRIED cont'd) ..... really found out that you cou ldn't do anything in Gimli I think that's what really started breaking down. --( Interjection)-- Yes, you wanted Gimli because it was I think formerly one of the - well the Conservative strongholds if you wish. It isn' t any longer. These are the facts that I would like to bring out, and in addition another fact. One of the reasons why I didn't want to add any flame to you people, that is any con troversial is sues to you people because as long as my election was being controverted there was possi bility of harming certain individuals who took

part in the conduct of that election. I'm thinking of the Returning Officer who did an extremely good job and yet the allegations would have - I sa y they haven't been corrected yet from the public point of view - the allegations would still leave some people to think that the job was not something less than good. There's only one thing I'm a bit happy about in all of these allegations - the places where wrongs had occurred or appeared to have o8cu rred were places that we know were being organi zed and looked after by known Conservative s.

You see when we went ab out looking for those to help us --(Interjection )-- yes, that is the truth. We didn't just, we didn' t just go and pick strong supporters to conduct the election. That certainly did not happen in Gimli constituency. Now I want to move on, I want to move on from there to another area that I think should be of extreme interest to everyone in the Chamber here and pos sibly the reason why such an effort was made to take Gimli const ituency in the last election. And it's because of the tremendous improvement that has occu rred there ever since _the NDP have come into offi ce.

Now I don't want you to take my word for it, I'm going to quote, I'm going to quote Ken Reid, the Director of the Interlake Development Corporation. In his recent annua l report he said that, the results that have occurred, the change that has occurred in the Interlake and in Gimli constituency in particular, were "t ruly amazing" . Those were his very words. And they were truly amazing. And he says all this has occu rred in the last five or six years, that is since we've been in offi ce, not prior to that time but since we've been in office.

Now I'm going to admit at the outset that it wasn' t all due to our good work, it demanded the co-operation of all the departments of gove mment but it certainly demanded an input from the Federal Government which was there in the form of a FRED agreement. However at the sa me time, at the same time as we dld have that input from the federal, we had almost an equal amount taken away with the closu re of the Gimli Airbase. So it balances 02t doesn' t it? Most of the credit then has to come to us, not the federal.

And what are the good points that he mentioned and what are the things that have been so amazing in their development in the Interlake . Well he says mos t rural communities today - this is the first thing he said - are now growing and more young people are returning to agriculture. Now on the fact of it that might not seem much of a statement, but, if you've been in that constituency as long as I have you will have noticed that when the former govern ment was in office there were only two areas that were growing.

I don't know whether it's by chance that these two areas were Conservative strongholds, Stonewall, Gimli. Those were the two area s. They were called the growth cen tr,es. And .)f course if you were a busin ess man contemplating setting up business anywhere in Gimli constitu ency, where would you go? To one of the growth areas. And so they grew. And where would you stay away from ? Teulon, Winnipeg Beach and any of the other comm unities. And it was that government there that was condemning these other communities to a slow lingering death. That's been reversed, and that is why Mr.

Reid was able to stand up and sa y, "Most of the communities are now growing." Not just the ones you've designated as your growth cent res . And when he said that more young people are becoming interested in agriculture he meant this. I can remember it very well - an economic advisor to your former Minister, First Minister, spoke in the Interlake. I don't know whether it was at Inwood or at Arborg but in that area. I remember the headlines the next day, and it was to the effect that if we want to improve the economic conditions of the people in the Interlake why then 50 percent of the farmers would have to leave.

This was the solution - 50 percent of the farmers were supposed to get up and move out. A MEMBER: Shame . MR. GOTTFRIED: Today that's been reversed and there are more young people becoming interested in agriculture. So that's quite an amazing change.

70 March 7, 1975 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE A MEMBER: Most of them were in there . • • MR . GOTTFRIED: And the second point .•• Yes, they can come here now and be heard. They've got something to come for. They didn't have before. And the second point he made was this, that all communities now have more and better housing. And I give the credit for that to your Minister of Agric ulture and his work in making waterworks available in the towns and also the assistance that he has given to the farmers to get better housing. You know, besides that you've got to have some cash in your hip pocket.

He has also helped them in that respect, in many different ways. He has. I'll get to that later. --(Interjection)-- He has. So there is more and better housing and there's no doubt about it. The third thing he said was that most areas of Gimli constituency now have better recreational and educational facilities. And that's a fact. I couldn't begin to list the improve ments that have taken place in the last six years in those two areas alone. A MEMBER: Tell us John. MR . GOTTFRIED: Well Pm not, it would take too long and I haven't got the time.

But the most recent one passed over my desk just about three d3.ys ago and it was a $20, OOO grant to the Village of Balmoral for a recreation complex. You know, these things are coming through all the time. We're helping them. We're helping them. And all the towns have got good recreational complexes today. And what about the schools, and what about the schools. A MEMBER: Tell us. MR . GOTTFRIED: Well there have been addit ions to three schools in the - well in the Stonewall area, in the Teulon area, we had one addition completed this year.

In the Gimli area addit ions are planned for this year, plus office buildings. I think there has been more building and construction work in the area of the educational building than there have been for many years prior. Let me remind you of a trip we took in the Interlake in '69, and I believe it was at Gypsumville, the bus stopped and we went to look at a school, and the roof was leaking. It was a 6 room school. Now was it Gyp sum --(Interjection)-- yes it was Ash ern. We went into this building and there were tubs on the floor to catch the water that was leaking through the roof.

The teachers were huddled into three or four other classrooms to the side. That was the condition of some of the schools in the Interlake prior to our government coming into office. That was it. Now, going on again, Ken Reid also said this: he said that agricultural production in the Gimli constituency and the Interlake area has increased in all sectors. Would you like me to go into detail ? Well there's beef, hogs, everything, all sectors I'm not going to go into details there. The farmers are away better off. Yes, turkeys, chickens, all the rest of it. There's been an increase. Farmers have more to depend on.

Because Gimli constituency is made up of a diversified type of farming, then, if one fails, they've got the others to depend on. You know, if they're not making too well in beef, they'll make it in some other way. But they're going to get by. It has improved tremendously. And the fifth point he brought out was that surveys, recent surveys in the Interlake have indicated that all jobs in small industrial plants have almost doubled in the last six years. Six years ago there were almost 1, 600 jobs in that area; today I believe the exact ffgures is 2, 774.

Now that is something to boast about because our young people don't have to leave the area, they can now stay within the constituency and have some opportunity for employment. And they are doing this, not thanks to the members on the opposite side, none whatsoever. The amount of knocking that has gone on in connection with Saunders is something that they can be thoroughly ashamed ::if and I have heard people in Gimli say this, they've come to me and they've said, "John I've been a Conservative all my life but if they continue knocking Saunders, I'm switching to NDP".

You know why pull the ... out from under the public. These people have worked hard to try and make something out of that air base and you people are doing everything in your power to make sure that the enterprise will not succeed. You know, it's ju st --(Interjection)-- Yes, if it's for his own political grandi sement, if you wish. Your leader, your present leader, will say, "Oh I'm all for Saunders; yes, I'll keep it open." when he wants votes, but immediately after, a different story altogether. You know, it's tactics like that that helps to keep me in power.

But I certainly can't understand the reasoning behind the group on the other side here to try to take away industry, try to counteract the good

March 7, 197 5 71 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR. GOTTFRIED con t'd) .... . work that this government has been trying to d). The Gimli industrial park today employs approximately 820 people. When the air base was there there were 200 civilians and 800 airmen. In effect though, the economic effect that it had on the commun ity was simply what devolved to them from the 200 employed there because they were the ones that had their families and their homes in the area while the 800 servicemen were single and did a good deal of their shopping elsewhere.

So today we're much better off with 800 employees than we were with the 200 before. Although there isn' t quite the same amount of cash input, the working of that cash throughout the economy has cer tainly d)ne a great deal to improve the conditions in Gimli constituency. Now these are the five points that were brought up by Ken Reid of the Interlake Development Corporation, and if you have any object ions to that write him a letter, tell him that you don't agree with him, or there's some thing wrong.

But I'll tell you that he does represent a good deal of the thinking people in that comm unity, and what he sa ys is correct. And I defy anyo:ie to challenge that. Now, you people have had a lot to say about Au topac, and I can find myself nothing but amused at what I hear across the way there. I find myself amused because every tirrle I hear you people chuck ling away it makes me think, it mak es me think of a little girl dressed in red carr ying a picnic basket, trippi ng lightly through the forest, and behind her a big bad wolf there, his lips drooling, his tongue hanging out, read y . to pounce .

What is he after ? He wants that picnic basket. Then instead of taking the direct attack, he dashes ahead, disguises himself as the grandmother, but even then he's recognized because of his big ears, long snout and his teeth. He can't fool Little Red Riding Hood no how, and why are you people working so hard to fool them ? Because the situation with Au topac is this: today the motoring public has the 100, the 20 0, or the 300 dollar saving in their hip pocket, and this is what' s bothering you. This is it exactly.

And the things that you'll try to pull off, to try to wheedle that money 0•1t of their pocket is amazing. But as I say, those who are in the know can sit back and chuckle at it because all you're working for is big business, because that's all you stand for. If anyone reading of your attempts to try and wheedle that money out of their po::ket thinks of it in those terms, he'll have you clas sified properly. Quite properly, put you in your place right there. What do you use in yo:.ir attempts to wheedle them out of their $300 saving ? Here's one. They haven't got freedom of choice.

And what does it make me think of ? It makes me think of the type of freedom of choice that we had prior to Au topac. Yeah, it mak es me think of that. Do you people over there want us to have Au topac, Sch reyer-pac, Uruski-pac, Howard pac, you name it, any other pac, five or six different firms, all doing business through the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation, and then telling the public that they've got some choi ce. The public are too smart for that. So you may as well come back to square one and quit· trying to wheedle the money out of the people.

You also tell them, well my goodness you've spent $9 million. You don't tell them that that $9 million has been translated into the best motor cars in the Dominion; you'll find them right here in Manitoba. There are no dents, no nothing, the government has fixed them all up. The money has gone right back to the public and they're using that $9 million right there. Do you remember what it was like under the old ins urance scheme ?

Yo:.i dinted yo:.ir car, you bumped into someone, you dinted your car, and you came out and you said to the fellow, "Ah should we report this or shouldn't we ?" Because, if you reported it you knew what would happen, you'd get an increased rate over the next two or three year s. So if it was to your advantage not to say anything you didn't report it, but the result was that we had some of the most awful looking cars on our highway. Cars with dents from -- I know because I drove some like that, and that I didn't want to report. Today they don't have to do that any more . Their cars are looked aft er.

They're paying a good deal less and getting wonderful service for it. Now another item that bothers me, and something that I took up, I believe, the first time I ever made a reply to the Speech from the Throne. I did mention something concerning the philosophy of the NDP government, which you people have been attacking and trying to con fuse ever since. But, let's look at it this way, governments exist solely for the purpose of exercising control. I don't care how you word it but every time you pas s a bill here it's con trolling someone. It's limiting the scope of action of certain individuals.

It limits the power. --(Interjection)-- Yes, it limits the control of someone. The odd thing about it though, and the

72 March 7, 1975 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR . GOTTFRIED cont'd) •...• thing that appar ently you people don't understand , or some of the people ..• is that a good deal of our government's time is spent in pas sing legislation to guarantee and protect the freedoms of people. So, in a sense we are limiting co ntrols to protect freedom . Now you might think that that 's a contradiction of terms but it really isn 't . It really isn't because imm ediately we have you people jumping into the arena and thinking of them in the ab solute . Your thinking of absolute freedom , and this is what you want to fight for.

Well you can't have it . You can't have absolute freedom . You'd have anarchy . But this is what you people are af ter . Then you have on the far end the co mmun ists, if you wish, who want absolute co ntrol. And they can't have that either, that's another ideal spot . --(Interjectio n)- You 're talking about only the five percent, the five perc ent in our co untry who are occu pied in big busine ss. They have the freedom . The other 95 perce nt who work for them , they have most of the co ntrols placed on them . And that is where the fight lies, if you wish .

And you people stand and represent that five percent, that five percent , the big busi ness group who has a lot of freedom . Yes . We just finished telling you how we gave the motoring public a little bit of freedom , $300 in his hip pock et . He is free now to go to a store and buy another suite if he wants it . He is free to buy and invest in another car if he wants to . He has freedom . We have extended his freedom to that extent. But what are you people after ? You want to wheedle it out of him , you want to take it away from him .

Four to five percent, not for the other 95 percent, this is the group that you 're working for . And you've worked for this group so long that we 've finally come to the stage where you can pick up the papers today and you can read where philosophers and economists are quite worried today about what is taking place in this world . They 're worried, they say that we are faced now with only two choic es , go free enterprise all the way and this will lead to the complete moral degradation and collapse of the human ra ce . But what would happen ?

Or go communist all the way and you'll have the survival of the physical species of the human ra ce. And these are the two choic es they feel that are facing them today . The one extreme or the other extreme. But I'm telling you that you don't have to be an extremist in Manitoba . You've got another way . You've got an alternative . It 's social democracy . Now just wise up and take that way while the time is still there. Thank you . INTRODUC TION OF GUESTS MR .

SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 60 students of the Niverville School . These students are under the direction of Mr . Dueck. This school is located in the cons tituency of the Honourable Member for La Verendrye . On behalf of all the honourable members I welcome you here today . THRONE SPEECH cont'd MR . SPEAK ER : The Honourable Minister of Public Works . HON . RUSSE LL DOERN (Minister of Public Works) (Elmwood): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to once again congratulate you on as suming your role in this House and wish you well in the months ahead . Norma lly, in a legislative sess ion, all eyes are on the government but this year I think the Opposition will share some of the spotlight with us . MR. SHAFRANSKY: The fact that they're afraid to get up to speak . MR . SPEAKER : Order please . MR. DOERN: First , Mr . Speak er, we have the Liberal group in the House, which I think is more accurately desc ribed as a group rather than a party , and we ar e, of cou rse , going to watch their performance with some particular interest .

They have some new talent. They have a new leader and they apparently are beating the bushes for new candidates and co ming up with some new shiny fac es, yet untested . Mr . Speak er, I read with some interest an

article in one of the papers of a few weeks ago , February 20th, titled "McC affr ey Wants Liberal Nomination" . I think Mr . Mcc aff rey, whom I know very well, made the following point, which I think may have esca ped some of us , about the value and the opportuni ties of being a Liberal in Manitoba today . The future lies ahead of them . He said that the Conservative Party feels it is very close to forming a government and therefore it tends to play it safe and say what pleases people. But the Liberal Party , on the other hand , with only

March 7, 1975 73 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR. DOERN cont 'd) ... .. three seats in the House can criticize the government more effectively . So there you are; they're not tied by any large nu mbers or any prospects of taking the governm ent , or any need to discipline themselves to seek power. They have freedom, they have scope, and obviously they are moving in the right direction . I assume that the Liberal slogan is now , smaller is better, and the smaller we get the better we get. Mr . Speaker, we will also , of course, be watching the Conse rvative Party. I think we 're going to be treated to another blood bath.

This is a tradition in the party. I think it's one that I in myself lament . We all kno w that historically the Liberal Party is in alliance for power, and that the Liberals in Ca nada are thinking nationally more than provincially , would almost do anything to seek power, take any leader, adopt any policies , modify any princip les , because it's really not so much a party that is grouped around a single philosophy, as is this party and to a certain extent the Cons ervative party, maybe to as great an extent as on this side, the Liberal Party is in fact just really a group bent on seeking power.

The Cons ervatives unfortunately have had to contend with this and have on many occasi ons had to dump their leader, or knife their leader , or replace their leader. And I think it 's under standable really, because they have had the misf ortune of frequently being out of power and cons equently have had to change leaders to find the right combination . Obviously if they had been more successful there would have been fewer knifi ngs, fewer replacemen ts, and fewer problems. But they have had this problem of dumping leaders and I think, Mr . Speaker, we are witnessi ng that once again .

And I have to conclu de, as an observer on the scene, that their present leader is in fact finis hed, that their present leader has in fact been effectively knifed and will in fact unq uestionably be replaced at the next leadership con vent ion . I notice that the Leader of the Opposition very cleverly places his new deputy behind him to protect him from the pos sibility of any damage in the immediate vicinity . It's quite clear though, that ther e's no shortage of candidate s. There's no problem in terms of people who are willing to accept the opportunity . Well, you say, George for leader.

I happen to think that he would make a very good one, and I know that many many of the people on this side would support his candid acy . Mr . Speaker, as I say there are so many people on the other side willing to be leader, who are making statements . The papers were filled recently with photographs; Federal Members of Parli ament defeated Ca binet Ministers in the Roblin regime; Member of the Legislative Asse mbly --(Inte rjection) -- Well, retired . Well defeated federally at least, defeated federally, and defeated for the leadership, as my colleague points out .

But we have more than him who is defeated for the leadership still with us, and probably others in the busine ss community who will come forth. So the re 's no shortage, Mr. Speaker. It's not a question of a shortage of leadership material. What they need really isn't a leader, they need a referee. They need somebody to moderate and mediate between the conflicting factions . Mr . Speaker, one of those people who will undoubtedly contest for the leader::h ip - he 'll probably feel the wind of a draft - is my honourable friend the Member for Morris .

I'm sure that support is building in the cons tituency and throughout the so uthwest for the candidacy of a person like himself . And I think he's done very well, done very well in the last year on a number of issu es. You'll recall it wasn't too long ago he was selling eggs in the Legislature for 60 . . . A MEM BER: . . . at a loss . MR. DOERN : ... at a lo ss . It was a lost leader, very similar to what Safeway has, and so on . In fact, he 's very clever .

He does show that he has business acumen because he said that he was going to only buy a number of dozens, or he said he 'd only sell a few dozen eggs because he didn 't want to suffer the loss of too much money . And when I first heard that he was going to sell these eggs from his office, I had a dilemma . As a minister we deal with all sorts of demonstration s. We had the students here recently . We had the cow-calf operators . We'll be privileged to have the nu rses . --(Interjectio n)-- We had the Mayor here one day, that's right.

We are going to have the nur ses next week, and there's just this continual type of activity, and you know I welcome it . I think it 's good . I think it's useful if we have demonstrations where people have an opportunity to express their supports, or usually their disagreement with a certain policy from the governm ent. It's healthy.

74 March 7, 197 5 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR . DOERN cont'

d) We had, previous to the Member from Morris's display, we had a farmer s' market here which was a protest about the high price of food stuffs in an attempt to demonstrate to the public what prices could be or should be and there was , of cour se, a large numb er of people here for that . And I gave my approval to that . When it came to the Member for Morris I was tempted to stop him from selling this produce in the Legislature because I couldn"t see the similarity . In one case we had a demonstration of produc ers, and in another case we had somebody who was selling eggs .

But finally I was able to resolve this in my own mind because I thought about it for awhile and it occurred to me that the Member for Morris wa s, in fac t, a producer - he 'd laid every one of those eggs himself. Mr. Speak er, one of the things that I'm really looking forward to - I wish and I know that the Cons ervatives.are anxious to adjourn the House because they•re all waiting to go to their Policy Convention today . Now , this is goin g to be a momentous day in the history of Manitoba .

This is going to be the weekend --(Interjection) -- my fellow MLA 's, this is the weekend when the Cons ervative Party is going to go back to its origin •. They're going to turn back the clock this weekend . They're going to go back to the good old days, the pre-Roblin days in the mid-1950 's. They're going to go back to their origin . They are going to tell us what they stand for . My co lleague, the distinguished Member for St . Johns, he challenged the Leader of the Opposition, and said to them , "Why don't you tell us what you 're for. We know what you 're agai nst .

Why don't you tell us what you 're for ?" Well, you know, the principle is very simple . The principle is whatever the NDP is for the Conservatives are aga inst, and that's exactly , exactly how they're going to formulate their polic es this weekend. Mr . Speaker , I'd like to read you a co uple of choic e items that are going to come up at this convention here and I read from a column by Frances Russell of the Free Press, an

article that appeared on March 4th called "Pus hing Toward the Right" . And thi s was a capsule

summary of the policy papers on labour and urban affair s, and here are four proposed planks - and by God I hope they adopt them . I mean I really hope that the Con servative Party takes that swing to the right . I think that would be a good thing . It wouldn't be good for them , but it mi ght be good for the provinc e to have a dichotomy of left and right . And I know there are a lot of people in the back bench , and there's a lot of people out there behind them who are hoping that the party will take its natural plac e, which is to the right or the far right . Now I know that if their former leader Mr .

Roblin was here , he would lament this fact . But they're going to push through all that history and all that problem they had with those Red Tories, former Premier Roblin and their present leader Mr . Spivak, the Honourable Leader of the Offi cial Opposition . They've had enough of these Red Tories . They're going to swing right . --(lnterjection)-- Well, here's how they're going to do it . First, they have policy papers which include proposals to abolish the one-cit y government for Winnipeg and return to a variety of tax bases throughout the urban ar ea .

Sec ond, they 're going to hold down improvements in the minimu m.wage . I hope the Minister of Labour heard that one. They're going to hold down the improvements in the minimum wage and other employee benefits under the Provincial Employment Standards Law . Here's another one for the Minister of Labour . Third, they're going to strip away many of the protections given unions under the 19 72 revision of the Labour Laws . And fourth , they're going to eliminate formal citizen and environmental controls on civic polic y. Now, there's a real good platform for you .

They're going to come out with that and then they're going to get themselves a brand new fancy leader and they're going to take that platform and that new leader, they 're going to go into the next election . We ll, I wish them luck, Mr. Speak er . I think they're going to just kill themselves, in effec t, or blow up the Conservative Party, lock it into the southwest, come back with 15 or 16 seats and make more room for the New Democratic Party and maybe the Liberals will pick up one or two seats . We're not averse to giving them one or two more . They could use a little help.

And that 's about the way the situation 's going to be . You know, Mr . Speak er, when I read this business about abolishing the one-city govern ment , I really am astounded . They say that -- well in fact I should read. you a word from the

March 7, 1975 75 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR . DOE RN cont'd) . . . . . Leader of the Offic ial Oppos ition because he explained all this apparent dichotomy in the Cons ervative Party . It is an illusion according to the Leader . He simply said that -- he says that he doesn't deny there's a left-right split in the party , but he doesn't believe the right wing is becoming any larger or more powerful . And he states that the resolutions we:re made deliberately controversial to stimulate debate and force the party to come out clearly on ce rtain vital issu es .

So it's really an exerc ise in sort of debating fun and debating skills, etc . , to see who can come up with the best proposals. But what do the Conservative s propose in terms of one-city government? They say we 're going to do away with that . A ME MBER: Yes . MR . DOERN : They're going to go back to the pr e-72 Metro System with some variation s.

And they say that Unicity has meant that all parts of Winnipeg should have uniform services, more or less, at incr�ased costs even though many parts should be satisfied with reduced servic es, resulting in lower taxes which they formerly enjoyed and should be able to have again . So, those were the good old days, Mr . Speaker . Do you remember the good old days when we had Metro and the various municipalit ies, and prior to Metro, and so on ? Remember the good old days when we had situations like this ... A MEMBER: Steve was fi ghting Willis ... MR .

DOERN: Yes, we had Mayor Jub a fighting Metro, and then we had St . James fighting Winnipeg, and we had St . Boniface versus St . Vital . Remember the good old days ! And we 're going to get more of that . We're going to have a return to those days when we had conflict and fighting and confusion and chaos. We 're going to get that from the Conservative Party . This is what they 're proposing to adopt, probably tonight . Mr . Speaker , I think that I for one would give credit to the previous Conservative administration for the implementation of Metro . I think that as an intermediate step it had some merit .

It might have been better. I defer to my senior colleagues here . It might have been better for them to go from the various municipalities direc tly to one ci ty. I think there was some concern on the part of the then Premier Roblin about possibly his political ability to do thi s, or the wisdom of doing this at the time . But he went to an intermediate position of a seco nd level of government.

And I think that hi storically when the history of this city is written and the history of this province is written that the Conservative Party will have some cre dit for adopting the Metro System , which I regard as an evolutionary step towards one city . And I think that they can be proud of that achievement . But we 're going to watch with some interest as to whether they are now going to slip back to that position or go further back to pre-Metro days . There is no doubt that in providing some of the common servic es and planning that Metro di.d som·9 good .

One of the ideas that came out of Metro that this city implemented in conjunction with that government was the Convention Centre . And , Mr. Speak er, I was a strong supporter of that policy and I think that it is now very interesting to see the Convention Centre open, as it did only a month or so ago, and be universally applauded and accept ed. It 's also interesting to see some of the people who opposed the Convention Centre now getting on the bandwagon and working to make it more succes sful . And I would like to just for the moment, pay tribute to the then-Chairman of Metro, Mr.

Willis, who is now out of politic s, for his efforts in that regard, and other people on Council , including Bernie Wolfe who is now the Deputy Mayor, and also my own colleagues in the Provincial Government who supported that concept and were willing to put up seven and a half mi llion dollars as a significii.nL co ntribution to attract that project which will have benefits not only throughout the city, but throughout the province. Mr. Speak er, I'm proud of the role that our administration has played in the growth and development of the City of Winnipeg since 1969 .

I think if you look , historically, at the two decades after the war there was in fact a relative decline in the City of Winni peg.

Sure, the population kept going up and various program s got on track, and so on, but in terms of the development of other cities in this co untry -- and I think particularl y of Ca lgary and Edmonton and Vancouver in the west, and of cou rse the big explosion in Toronto in terms of population and development, and Montreal , etc., when you think of how Winnipeg did in the decades after the war , and in terms of the downtown sector, it was not too -- well, relatively , we were behind . I would again give some credit to my friends opposite

76 March 7, 197 5 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR . DOE RN cont'd) . . . . . because it was in their period in office when they funded the Centennial Concert Hall and some of those buildings down on Main Street. I think that that is very much to their cre dit . We had some private development in the City of Winnipeg like the Richardson Building complex, and some other buildings, etc., but , essentially, there was a lack of development . There were endless announc ements.

I remember so clearly about five to ten years ago , there were announcements month after month of projects that were going to be developed in the cit y 0 They all seemed to cos t $50 million. They all seemed to be down Portage Avenue or Gra ham , or just north of Portage . And nothing ever came of them . So this was the situation we had . We had promises galore, but no action . I would submit , Mr .

Speaker , that much of the major co nstruction in the City of Winnipeg in the past six years is either directly or indirectly attributa ble to the actions and policies of the New Democratic administ ration o Time and again this government had acted as a catalyst in developments that benefitted the public sector or the private sect or, and I would give three examples. First the downtwon core which is particularly between Broadway and Portage , and our co mplex, and Main Street, the traditional down town co re. Sec ondly, the Legislative core area here -- we refer to it in Public Works , our Home Turf.

And thirdly, the urban core, the inner city core that 's referred to in the Throne Speech . We go back to the first point, the downtown core . An area was designated in the downtown area , a 14- block plan , which was basica lly just a blighted area , full of surface parking lots. That's the situation as it existed only a few years ago . With the support of the Provincial Governm ent the Convention Centre was built.

Almost immediately simultane ously, even befor e, there was a development of Lakeview Square which went up just across the street from the Convention Centre, a Holiday Inn, a couple of apartme nt blocks , or hotel apartment block construction, a couple of office towers. So that went up almost simultan eously. And all around that area there is a tremendous interest in further development. We own a block south of the Convention Centre and there have been endless proposals made to us, which we've rejected, to have private developers come in and develop our property, for us . . .

A MEMBE R: I like the way you planted those trees. MR . DOERN: Thank you. Or else to sort of involve themselves in relation to our project by leasing out parking or allowing private developers to build on top of our proposed parking structure, leasing the air rights, etc . There's been talk of a development by the Hudson's Bay Company over on one side, there is a new building going up I think at Ca rlton and Broadway . Obviously people want to be clo se to the Convention Centre becaus e of the obvious spark that it will ignite in terms of busine ss, both within the provinc e and from out side of the provinc e.

A MEMBE R: Russ how did you plant those trees in the middle of winter ? MR . DOERN: So , Mr . Speaker - I '11 have a word with you later - I believe that this has been a significant benefit to the cit y and the provinc e, and as I said, I think that some of that credit must accrue to this government for supporting the Convention Centre which is in effect triggering a revitalization of that whole 14 block area .

The Trizec Development, which is fairly co ntroversial and I don't care to get into the minute details of that project , but nevertheless the City of Winnipeg has decided that they will build a thousand car parking structure at Portage and Main -- they've almost demolished the whole site already - and they are leasing the air rights to a private developer, and at one point an appeal was made to the province to help untrack that project because there was a need for a ce rtain commitment on the part of so many square feet to assist the developers in their building pla ns , appeals were made to us on behalf of the City and the provinc e committed to a fairly significant portion of the space in that project .

So there again the provinc e helped untrack a significant and sizable development. Mr. Speaker , one of the most interesting developments in the past numb er of years that 's being talked about is the one behind the CNR station , the CN mar shalling yar ds, or at least maybe not their mar shalling yards but perhaps their main --(Interjection)-- their east yard . Their mar shalling yards I suppose are Symington. Their east yards are in the downtown area for servicing the downtown core . Mr. Speaker , I just speak on this bri efly

March 7, 197 5 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR . DOERN cont'd) . . . . . and say that I think that there is an opportunity there for a significant commercial development in co;1junction with a sizable public park . . • A MEMBE R: No , a national historical park. 77 MR . DOERN: ... and there is no public inve stment required or no public investments being asked for by these developers.

When you compare this to other developments that the city has supported, it's hard to believe that there's some apparent foot�dragging or significant opposition to this project, becaus e the benefits to the citizens of Winn ipeg will be signific ant . First they will have a sizable park, which will be anyw here from 30 to 40 acres or more in size, without costs in the sense of acquisition costs ; and secondly , there'll be an annual rax revenue which has been estimated from $7 million if the project is around 100 million in size to about $10 million if it's a $1 50 million in si ze.

And it just strikes me as difficult to comprehend why the city, which comes to us every year for tax dollars, demanding and insis ting and pleading that they need more tax revenues to finance their programs, would on one day have a signific ant number of councillors say they are opposed to this kind of development and on the other day , on the other hand , they would come to the province and say, we're short of tax revenue s. It's very difficult to believe . You know , Mr. Speaker, there are some people who think that Win nipeg is New York City . They think that Winnipeg just has inc redible developmen ts .

I suggest that people who think that should do two things . One , they should go into the down town area and go throughout the Ci ty of Winnipeg and look at the development that's here . There's development and there's buildings and there's plan ts, and so on , and it's not bad but, you know, we could use a lot more . If you think that this is New York Ci ty, I suggest you go to New York City and look at big American cities . There isn't even the fain test comparison.

It's absolutely, as far as I'm concerned , just eons apart to attempt to compare Win nipeg with Los Angel es, Detroit, Chicago, and New York, and so on . Forget it. The re's no relevance whatsoever . Mr. Speaker, there has also been discussi on of the interest of the Provincial Government in the Great West site because I think it is a fact that .if this project becomes untracked that the Great West people will in fact build in conju nction with the CNR a very sizable commercial complex in the what is now called the CN's east yards.

And I think if that happens and the Provincial Government does in fact acquire the Great West site, which would be logical because of its proximity, then the province would again be acting as a catalyst to untrack a major development. Now some people I think, think that myself as Minister of Public Works, or that the governmen t has its -- you know , it's just panti ng, its tongue is hanging out at the prospect of acquiring that site. And I would say a number of things in that regard, Mr . Speaker.

First of all the province would only purchase scich a site, assuming it's available , at the right price, because that priCe would be subject to the scrutiny of everyone in the provinc e. It would have to be a feasible economic package. There's no sense in buying property at any price. I don't care how close it is. I don't care how much you want it. I don't care how badly that you can use it. It would have to be at the right price .

Also , if this project did not take place, namely, this de velopment in terms of the CN- Great West development that's proposed, the Great West Life Co mpany has announced that they are simply going to devefop their own site. So that will happen . And if that occurred, you know the province is not locked in , the province has all sorts of options in terms of building for its fut•.1.re requirements . I am going to speak just briefly on what we intend to do in the inn er-city core but it's a fact, Mr .

Speaker, that we own property around here, that we own a numb er of blocks that we could easily put up one or two more office towers in the legislative core area . We own property at Fort Osborne , which is now called the Fort Osborne complex . There is ample room to build there . It doesn't ne cess arily have to be 10 , 20 storey buildings . We can build office space out there . We can build anywh ere where we believe it would be beneficial to the provinc e. There is all sorts of sites available .

No problem in picking up sites, So I'd just like to make that clear that if that project goes forward , the province will to some extent receive credit for helping enable the project to get off the ground , because I assume that Great West would not go into that development un less they were also able to sell their site. If they weren't able to sell it I assume the project also could not go forward because then they would have an empty site in one part of the city and a dozen blocks away they'd have new buildings and be in there. Well, that doesn't make good business sense .

78 March 7, 1975 THRONE SPEECH DEBA TE (MR . DOERN cont'd) ..... But, as I said , if it doesn' t work out that way, then Great West can develop their own site, the Provincial Governm ent will simply go on with long -range plans to meet its own requirement s, either in this part of the city, other parts of the city, or in other parts of the Province of Manito ba . Just briefly, Mr . Speaker, I'd like to refer to the legislative core area where we have built a new office building, which I think members will be most interested to visit in about six months when it officially opens .

The Library and Archives Building, which was once the Civic Auditorium , which I submit would have fallen into complete disuse similar to the Playhouse Theatre, that building would have been closed if the province hadn't bought it, renovated it, because of the competition from the Co nvention Ce nt re, from the Win nipeg Arena , from the Ce ntenni al Co ncert Hall, and so on, that would have been a closed building .

Eventually it might have been torn down in fact, but the province has invested money in reno vating it and it's really a very fine building and I think in about a mon th I'm going to invite all my friends to come down and look at that beautiful new facility. Mr. Speaker, I'd also like to mention that there fa a possibility that the province may be building a parking structure which would be related to the Co nvention Ce ntr e but my time is runn ing short . In fact I would ask the Speaker if he could tell me --(In terjection)- - I have six minu tes left.

So I will then get to the final major point tmt I wanted to deal with, and that is the provinc e.'$ role in the redevelopment and revitalization of the urban core which was described in the Throne 8peech. Mr . Speaker, I believe that this is the most significant urban thrust by any gnvernment in the past loo years . we've heard estimates of the cost of this project. I don't think that's the crucial question but if you want dollar figures, we've heard a range which has gone from 30 million to 40 million to 50 million as to just what this will cost .

It's very difficult to give figures at this point since some of the programs are not developed, and until you have a developed program and until you have your working drawings completed and actually until you tender, you really don't know the exact amount of money that will be required. But obviously it's in the tens of millions of dollars. Now, I haven 't heard too much debate. I've heard the Cons ervative Leader say - and I think that all of us were stunned when he said that they would have put up this public housing that we put up anyw ay . They were just about to get to this .

But then they got turfed out of office. --(In terjection)-- well, he hasn't been back sin ce. And we know what the Co ns ervative Party thinks of public housing . I was pleased to hear, however , that the Liberal Party says that they are going to support the New Democratic Party in this kind of a development . And the Member for Roblin, he also is in this case supporting the govern ment. The question has been asked, Mr .

Speaker, as to what benefit, though, some of these major public works are to the city ? we have alluded to the fact that we are consid ering the development of a new Law Co urts Building, which could very well be built across the street. we have referred to the fact that we have a requirement for MPIC , Autopac and the Motor Vehicle Branc h to tie in in a building . we have ment ioned that there is a need for a central computer cent re, a provincial garage, and an environmental lab. And some of the ••• A ME MBER: what is an environment al lab ? --(In terjection)-- MR .

DOERN: well, we would use a few of those too . And, Mr . 8peaker, the question has been asked, well you know, what good does this do ? You know, you're just going to put up some building s. You know, buildings are buildings , there's just no sort of benef it to buildin gs . well, Mr . Speaker, first of all the construction industry, I think, is the largest industry in Ca nada, and if these buildings are untr acked along with the public housing you'll have a significant amount of work available to thousands of people who work in the cons truction in dustry .

There will be jobs available in these buildin gs, all sorts of jobs, I assume, from clean ers and janitors to secretaries to white collar workers, blue collar workers, that will be available. I assume it is valuable for us to have attractive buildings in the city. And there will be, in general a social and econo mic benefit to this program that I am attempting to describe. In terms of taxes I'm told that in public housing we pay full taxation which will accrue to the city , that senior citizens housing, there is mun icipal taxes paid .

And then in terms of the Public works buildings of course there are grants in lieu .

March 7, 197 5 79 THRONE SPE ECH DEBATE (MR . DOERN cont'

d) Mr . Speaker , I think right now the chips are do wn . That the Provincial Government is showing in no unc ertain terms its goodwill and intention at helping the City of Winnipeg redevelop its in ner co re. I believe that the cha llenge has never been greater and that the amount of money, and the amount of work and forces that are going to be untracked have never before been seen in this provinc e. So I say to the Member of the Opposition, I hope that you will support us in this endeavour .

I say to the Members of City Council that here is your chance to join with us to make this a better city, because this program alone, Mr . Speaker, will str�ngthen the ci ty a.11d strengthen the province . MR . SPJ;<;AKER: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney . MR. McKJ;<;LLAR: Mr . Speaker, I'd like to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Lake side, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and ca rried . MR . SPJ;<;AKER: The Honourable House Leader . MR . GREEN: Mr . Speaker, I intend, unless there is some objection to it, to move adjournm ent.

I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Health and Social Development, that the House do now adjourn. MOTION presented and carried and the House adjourned until 2: 3u Monday af ternoon.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-2-4
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 2nd hansardpdf 4.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	87c900a77edaee63d443d4c1d167fcd1256b9182

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