Manitoba Hansard — 6 June 2000 (Sitting 40, 37th Legislature, 1st Session)

37-1-40

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session -Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. L No. 40 - 1:30 p.m., Thesday, .June 6, 2000 ISSN 0542-5492

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, lion. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, lion. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERIUJ, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, I larry FAlJRSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, lion. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HELWER, Edward II ICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATIIUN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

MIUYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie NEVAKSIIONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, lion. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE. Tim, lion. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCIIULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, lion. SMITH, Joy SMITH. Scott STEFANSON, Eric STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCIIUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Kirkficld Park Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. I'.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.I'. N.D.P. PC . N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.I'. I'.C. N.D.I'.

2121 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, June 6, 2000 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Gaming Licences Plebiscites Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Lois Forsythe, Jack Forsythe, Grace Hamlin and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Government to hold plebiscites in the affected communities before new gaming licences are issued in the province of Manitoba. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Conrad Santos (Chairperson): Mr.

Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), that the report of the Committee be received. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attent ion of all hono urable members to the gallery where we have from Crystal City Elementary School, 11 Grade 4 students under the direction of Mr. Larry Hamilton. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed).

Also, we have from Sandy Bay School 27 Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. John Paramor. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings). Also in the gallery we have from Walter Whyte School 17 Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Rob Sim pson. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar). Also, from Calvin Christian School 39 Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Ken Syman ski. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson).

We have from Christ the King School 23 Grade 5 students under the direction of Mrs. Shirley Gendron. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Vital (Ms. Allan). Also, students from the Second Start program in the St. James-Ass iniboia School Division under the direction of Jeff Chartrand and Susan Barron. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. James (Ms. Korzen iowski). Also, we have in the gallery Chief Denis Pache and councillo rs of Dakota Tipi First Nations.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. *(13 :3 5) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Treherne Hospital Summer Closure Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): During the election campaign, Today's NDP promised to immediately open 100 new hospital beds. That was on October 26. Then again on October 27,

2I22 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 2000 Today's NDP promised more doctors, more nurses and more services for rural Manitobans. Mr. Sp eaker, we have seen time and time again that their promises around health care have been broken. It appears the First Minister, instead of opening hospital beds is not only closing hospital beds but he is closing whole hospitals. My question for the First Minis ter is: What does he say to the residen ts of Treheme who are seeing their hospital closed this summer because of a shortage of nurses and another NDP broken promise around health care? Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity of again, as is often done in this case, correcting the misstatements and the ina ccuracies of the Interim Leader of the Of ficial Opposition with some of the inaccurac ies that have been placed on the record.

I think a couple of things to bear in mind: the I 0 years of Tory nurse cutbacks and slashing and the closing of I400 hospital beds in the province of Manitoba have made it a very difficult task, but notwithstanding that we came into office, and I am proud to say that the CIHI report, a national independent report, indi cated that Manitoba had done better in terms of the hallway situation than any other jurisdiction in the country.

I ask members opposite to reflect on the fact that who was it that closed the largest hospital in the history of Manitoba only two years ago with nary a word, with the stroke of a pen, the Misericordia Hospital? So I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that members correct their questions. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne's 4I7: "Ans wers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." The Honourable Minis ter has overextended his time.

I believe it is time for another question. Mr. Speaker: On the same point of order? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I thought it was incumbent upon me not only to answer the question but to correct the inaccurac ies that were very present in the question raised by the Member opposite. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Of ficial Opposition House Leader does have a point of order. I would like to remind the Hono urable Min ister that according to Beauchesne's Citation 4I7: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible. Nur sing Profession Recruitmen t/Retention Strategy Mrs.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Sp eaker, the only person in this Chamber that is conf used and misleading is the Minis ter of Health who time and time again does not take any responsibil ity for the promises that he made during the election campaign. Again, during the election campaign, the Minis ter of Health promised to hire I 00 nurses immediately, and more than six months later, he announced his five-point plan with a so called comprehensive approach to fixing the nursing shortage in Manitoba.

My question to the Minis ter of Health is: Will he now admit that this five-point plan has seen the nursing shortage in the province of Manitoba go from 700 to II 00, as confirmed by the Manitoba Nurses' Union and that it has seen a hospital close? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I will not confirm that. In fact, I will indi cate the I 0 years of the Tory nursing shortage that these members put in place, that was not addressed, with no nursing plan, and I would appreciate, it would be very helpful for all- * (13:40) Mr. Speaker: Order.

June 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 212 3 Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau {Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Beauchesne's 417: "Ans wers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." The Honourable Minis ter has already answered the question by saying he would not confirm the shortages. I believe he does not have to enter into debate. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Minis ter of Health, on the same point of order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, again, I must indica te that, though the Member posed a question, there was a

preamble. It was inacc urate again, and it is incumbent upon members to bring proper information to this Chamber. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised, I would like to take this opportunity to remind minis ters that Beauchesne 's Citation 417 says that the answers should not provoke debate. * * * Mr. Speaker: The Honou rable Minis ter of Health, please conclude your comments. Mr. Chomiak: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker.

One of the things that I attempted to do when I was the Health critic was to utilize the Government figures with respect to nursing shortages, and we utilized the same methodology and approach with regard to the nursing figures that we are using now. It would be helpful if members opposite would support the five-point nursing plan, which was the first comprehensive approach to nursing that has been done in this jurisdiction in over a decade. We have Connie Curran on one hand, a comprehensive plan on the other hand. I ask Manitobans to choose. Health Care Facilities Rural Manitoba Mrs.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I would question a comprehensive plan that has led to over 400 nurses more lacking within our system as a result of that comprehensive plan. It 'is clear that the NDP has not lived up to any of its election promises to fix our health care system.

My question for the Minis ter of Health is: Given that we have a report commissioned by Today's NDP Government by Gordon Webster that talks about reviewing the whole system of hospitals in rural Manitoba, will the Minis ter of Health now admit that this is the first step in his plan to close rural hospitals and create a two tiered system for people in rural Manitoba? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, it is interesting that the Member who sat around the Cabinet table when a report was commissioned by that Cabinet to review the situation of hospitals in rural and northern Manito ba, is the very member who sat around that table when they set up some terms of references, somehow trying to look at all of those hospitals whether or not they could remain with H's on the highway. It is amazing that the Member would have the gall, or even the ability, to stand up in this House and accuse this government of closing hospitals.

It is incredible, particularly in light of the fact that it was members opposite who closed the largest hospital in the history of Manitoba. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Clearly, the Hon ourable Minis ter of Health is not hearing this, but Beauchesne's 417: "Ans wers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." We as the Opposition are here to get answers not to enter into debate. If the Minis ter could answer the questions, we would be happy with that. * (13:45) Mr. Speaker: Order.

On the point of order raised, the Member was getting close to the time that I have allowed for answers to questions, but

2124 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 2000 I would like to take this oppor tunity, again, to remind all minis ters of Beauchesne's Citation 417: Ans wers to questions should be as brief as possible. Treherne Hospital Summer Closure Mr. Denis Rocan (Carman): Mr. Speaker, as I look at members opposite, I would have never thought that the time would come that the most pressing issue that concerns Manitobans would be present here today.

As I look across and I see members applauding the Minis ter of Health for his actions, or his inability to try and explain to the people in rural Manitoba what is happening to them today, I cannot believe, for one moment that this individual, a man who I have great respect for, will stand here-[i nterjection] On that part, excuse me. For these individuals who are trying here right now, Beauchesne's 410: "The primary purpose of the Question Period is the seeking of inf ormation and calling the Government to account.

The greatest possible freedom should be given to Members consistent with the other rules and practices." This is the most important issue that we have had to deal with. Now, on behalf of my constituents, I would like to ask perhaps, if the Government had kept its promises to hire more nurses immediately and to convert part-time positions to full-time positions, there would be more nurses working in Manitoba today, and the Treherne hospital would not have to close its doors for two weeks this summer. Mr.

Speaker, can the Minis ter of Health explain what alternatives are in place for local residents who may need access to health care services during the Treherne hospital closure, if you would, please, Sir? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I have a good deal of respect for the Member opposite, but perhaps he could talk to his member, who tried to weave a closure into some overall policy that was adopted by members opposite, and I think he should have a conversation with the Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson), with respect- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Chomiak: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As we indica ted when we came to office, the most pressing urgent problem was the whole human resource sector that had been neglected in this province for a decade. We put in place a five poin t nursing plan. I have received statistics that ind icate, since we have been in office, there are more full-time nurses in every single category than when members opposite were in office. Is this good enough? No. That is why we have a long-term, five-point plan in which we intend to turn the situation around.

But in eight months, we could not undo the effects that had been put in place by firing the thousand nurses, closing 1400 beds, and general ly down grading professions over the past decade. Health Care Facilities Rural Manitoba Mr. Denis Rocan (Carman): Mr. Speaker, I do not want to enter into a debate with the Minis ter of Health. Will the Min ister of Health please advise the House if the closure of the Treherne hospital is his governmen t's first step to implementing the recent proposal which, if implemented, will ultimately lead to the closure of several of the rural Manitoba hospitals? Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I want to ind icate that the proposal that I believe the Member is referencing was a report that was commissioned, a report that terms of reference were put together by members opposite with respect to minimal hospital standards outside of Winnipeg. That report, I have not received the final copy of yet. If the members are referencing -[i nterjection} Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): Again, the Mini ster of Health appears to be quite confused.

I would like to clarify in his mind, so that he can answer the question, that the report that we are ref erring to

June 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2125 that talks about possible closures of rural hospitals is a report that was commissioned by the Minis ter of Health, and it is the Webster report. Mr. Speaker: Order. The Hon ourable Min ister of Health, on the same point of order. * (13:50) Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I suggest that the Member does not have a point of order. In fact, the members, because they are having trouble composing their question and getting some kind of rationale behind it, are seeking to explain something that they could have clearly done within the course of their question.

I suggest that they get their act together with respect to referring to what they are referring to. The Member did not refer to a report. The Member opposite referred to a report about closing hospitals, and the only one I know about that suggests that was commissioned by members opposite. Mr. Speaker: Order. The Hon ourable Member does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. * * * Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, as I was saying in my response to the question, if the Member is referring to the Webster report, which made a whole series of recommendations, we farmed those recommendations around for advice and comment from all the regions, rather than was past practice, taking report in, not releasing it to the public and then implementing secret recommendations. In fact, some of those recommendations we will not accept. Treherne Hospital Summer Closure Mr.

Denis Rocan (Carman): Once again, to the same min ister: Could he explain to Manitobans how his five-point plan is helping people in Treherne who are being told not to get sick for two weeks this summer because, if they do, their hospital will not open its doors for them? There was an ad taken out in the Treheme Times this morning where it says that the Tiger Hills Medical Associates, the lab and the imaging department in the personal care home will remain open. Residents of the PCH will not be affected by this closure, so it says.

Just for your in formation, Sir, there are two doctors on call from Treherne-- excuse me. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): The Member is continuing with I guess what would be called a postamble. The question has already been posed. Beauchesne's Citation 410 says that supplementary questions require no

preamble. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: The Honou rable Member for Carman, on the same point of order. Mr. Rocan: Mr. Speaker, I would like for the Honourable Government House Leader, who indeed might have a point, and that will be for you to rule, Sir, but take into account 409(4): "It ought to be on an important matter, and not be frivolous."; 409(5): "The matter ought to be of some urgency. There must be some present value in seeking the inf ormation during the Question Period rather than through the Order .. " Mr. Speaker, this is a very important issue to rural Manitobans in Treherne.

I mean, we have seniors, we have young people, we have homecomings. So I submit to you, Sir, I submit to the Speaker, it is a very important issue, and I am asking for a little bit of leniency in the rules of this House to bring forward the most important issue that this Minis ter of Health has had to deal with. Mr. Speaker: The Hon ourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr. Mackintosh: The rebuttal by the Member is, I think, unprecedented in this House. He was using a point of order to make a political debate. I ask that you call him to order. I ask that you rule his question out of order.

212 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 2000 Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised to the

preamble, I would like to take this moment to advise all members that Beauchesne 's Citation 409(2) advises that a supplementary question should not require a

preamble. *** Mr. Speaker: I would like the Honourable Member to put his question. You have put your question? The Honourable Member for Carman, on a new point of order. * (13:55) Point of Order Mr. Denis Rocan (Carman): In my response to the Government House Leader's point of order. Sir, I simply ask for leniency in putting my question to the Minister of Health because it was the most important issue that he has had to deal with in this session. I am asking for a little bit of leniency to put forward the facts that I believe the Min ister does not have access to. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

On the point of order raised, I am giving the Honourable Member the opportunity to put his question. *** Mr. Rocan: I would like to thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Once again to this Minis ter of Health: Could he explain to Manitobans how his five-point plan is helping the people in Treherne who are being told not to get sick for the two weeks this summer because if they do, Sir, their hospital doors will not be open. For his inf ormation, the hospitals that they are being sent to, Glenboro which has a 10-bed hospital- Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Government House Leader, on a point of order.

Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I ask you to rule, please, on whether this postamble that he is continuing exactly the same as the first time, his question had already been posed, he has now been allowed to put it again. He is adding a sentence after his question. He is abusing the rules. I ask you to call him to order. Mr. Speaker: The Member for Carman, on the same point of order. Mr. Rocan: On the same point of order, Mr. Sp eaker, if I am abusing the rules, I will withdraw and apologize to the House for that. Mr. Speaker: I thank the Honourable Member for Carman.

The question has been put. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker- An Honourable Member: You did not rule on the point of order. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised. the Honour able Member has already stated, so that takes care of the point of order. *** Mr. Speaker: The Hono urable Minister of Health, to answer the question. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, clearly the most fun damental issue facing Manit obans when we came to office was the dire strait of health care. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, if members want to ask the question, they could have the decency to listen to the response. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That is why we put in place a physician-recruitment plan, a nurses plan, a five-point plan to try to deal with the serious shortages that were evident when we came into office. We realize that it is a serious difficulty because of the lack of nurses, but we cannot, in eight months, fix a legacy of shortages and ill-

June 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 212 7 treatment of nurses that has occurred over the past decade. We are doing everything in our efforts, not only in Treheme, and we are working with them to do that, but other rural centres and the city of Winnipeg to deal with the serious staffing shortages, not just of nurses but of doctors, of radiotechnologists, radiotherapists, X-ray technicians, of every one of the professions that was allowed to lapse and where people were laid of f over the past decade.

We cannot tum it around overnight, but we have put in place a manageab le plan to try to address the critical areas in the immediate term which we have tried to do, and we have a long -term plan to address this shortage so people have access to health care. * (14:00) First Nations Casinos Operations Management Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, in the Manitoba First Nations Casino Project Selection Committee report, I note that, of the five proposals, no operations management participant is based in the province of Manitoba.

This government appears to be turning over the management of First Nations gambling to out of-province interests. My question is: Can the minis ter of gambling tell this House what kind of commitment in terms of length of contract these firms have made to run the proposed casinos? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister charged with the adm inistration of The Gaming Control Act): Mr. Speaker, I thank the Member for the question. I just want to state that we accept the report and the conditional recommendations from Mr. Freedman and Mr. Nadeau.

We certainly look forward to the proponents on their journey along this path to addressing all the conditions for success. This journey is going to be a long one; it is not an easy process for many of them. We look forward to their working hard to attain that. Mr. Tweed : I thank the Min ister for the answer, I think. Can the Mini ster advise what percentage of net profit is going to these out-of -province operation management participants? Mr.

Lemieux: We are certainly very proud of the fact that First Nations people will be attaining the majority of the profits from the casino projects once they become up and running if there are any that meet those conditions for success, and certainly we know that First Nations people are looking forward to the economic benefits and the jobs created from the casino projects. Members opposite seem to want to raise continually about gaming and gambling, but yet they were the ones who introduced the Bostrom report and they wanted to go ahead with this. Now, have they changed their tune, all of a sudden?

They do not want First Nations people to get jobs, to have economic development and so on. Mr. Tweed: Is the Minister of gambling satisfied with the abilities of these operations management participants? Mr. Lemieux: I am the Min ister responsible for the Gaming Commission, just to clarify that point. But I just want to state that First Nations people should have been brought along into this process a long time ago with regard to casinos, and certainly we are very proud of the fact that we have brought this process into place.

We certainly look forward to giving the First Nations people an opportunity to reach all the conditions for success that face them. So we just say to First Nations people that we wish them luck on this journey. It is going to be a difficult one, and it is certainly not going to be just around the comer. First Nations Casinos Audits Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, First Nations people and the people of Manitoba need more than just the Min ister's good wishes and wish for luck.

The Min ister has had three very straightforward questions on technical detail which he has refused again to come clean and tell the people of Manitoba. I ask the Premier (Mr. Doer), who is ultimately responsible, if the Premier, in the interests of openness and accountab ility in this issue, will commit today to ensure that all financial aspects of these five casinos are audited by the Provincial Auditor of Manit oba?

212 8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 2000 Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): Mr. Speaker, it is certainly do as I say, not do as I-never mind. I guess what I want to say here to the Member opposite is this. They looked at the casinos on Regent and McPhillips, and we have seen what has turned up there with respect to the money spent and so on. Certainly members on this side in opposition at that time asked a lot of questions with regard to the expansion of gaming and so on. Not a single answer came across from members opposite.

They have a lot of gall to start asking- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Of ficial Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laur endeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, Beauchesne 417 : "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." It does not take gall to ask these questions; it takes something else to answer them. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): That was a bit cryptic, Mr.

Speaker, but just in answer to that one, the question was, the answer was brief, it was to the point. It did not provoke debate. They just feel provoked because they are throwing stones from their glass house, as I said yesterday. The answer was in order. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised, the time that I am allowing for answers has not been exceeded. The Honourable Minis ter, to please continue to answer the questions. There was not a point of order. * * * Mr. Speaker: The Hon ourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, to please continu e to answer the question. Mr.

Lemieux: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Any successful proponent will have to enter into an agreement with the Lotteries Corporation, and that Lotteries Corporation is very, very competent to be able to look at the operations of those casinos. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, these questions are the kinds of questions that First Nations people want to have answered about accounta bility, Manitobans want.

I want to ask the Premier, who is responsible ultimately for these casinos in Manitoba, if he will follow the advice of the Provincial Auditor, former Provincial Auditor and current acting Provincial Auditor in Saskatchewan who have called upon their Gaming Commission to have value-f or-money audits of the end use of the dollars. We want to know if there is going to be public accountab ility on how those dollars are spent in First Nations communities. Is the Premier prepared to give that commitment to First Nations people, not their leaders, their people? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, the Member opposite knows that the audited rules of Manitoba under their stewardship did not require in law value-f or-money audits in this province, so II years members opposite, through three different Finance mini sters, did not amend the

section of the financial account ability acts of this province. Having said that, the issue of management fees is an issue that must be dealt with as one of the conditions prior to a licence being issued in the best interests of the province, the people and the community, and it will be dealt with. We know it is an area that if a "management company" is taking too much of a percent age, it would be unacceptable to the people in a community. The Minis ter will be dealing with that as one of the conditions.

Secondly, any mone y-[in terjection} Well, unlike members opposite that withheld $17 0 million of capital overspending, we will be fully accountable. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, I am glad that the First Minis ter has pledged to be fully accountabl e, because if he goes and looks at his neig hbours in Saskatchewan and he looks at the

June 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 212 9 Auditor's report on Saskatchewan Indian Gaming, he will find that there are needs to improve accountab ility. So I ask him again: Will he commit today to the people of Manitoba, to the First Nations people of Manitoba, that the proceeds of this gaming will be audited with a value-for- money audit to make sure we do not have a human resource development scandal happen in Manitoba? Will he make that commitment? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I would love to have a value-f or-money audit on Sma rtHealth, on frozen food, on the unf unded liability of $170 million.

I think it is important, and we certainly, in implementing the Bostrom report which members opposite commissioned and the Bostrom report that spoke to the great economic advanta ges, the great social risks and the great opportunity for revenues to be shared in communities for economic development-we know in Saskatchewan that a thousand Aboriginal people have been hired in casinos, breaking the cycle of dependency in some of those communities, building independence, building employment.

But a licence issued by the Province of Manitoba, through the Minis ter, has to have conditions, an d one of those conditions will obviously be that the money, the revenues benefit the people of those communities. and we will make sure we have accounta bil ity to make sure that happens. First Nations Casinos Legislative Amendments Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Yesterday the First Minis ter acknowledged that there are a number of conditions that are placed on the recommendations of the casino selection committee. In fact, on page 26, it is referred to quite a few times in his comments yesterday.

Some Honourable Members : Oh, oh. * (14:10) Mr. Reimer: I am glad that there is applause because this will fit right in with the question which I quote: Amendments to existing legislation to ensure that the implementation of the successful proposals is facilitated. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I ask the Premier: Does he agree that legislative changes are needed to ensure that the casino process is transparent and protects not only the proponents but also all of Manitqbans? Hon.

Ron Lemieux (Minister ,charged- with the administration of The Gaining Control Act): We have just received the report, and we are certainly looking through it and taking the opportunity to do so, unlike members opposite, you get a report and then you only release it a few months later and then actually comment on it seven months later. In less than 24 hours we released the report and made it public. We are very proud of being an open government. We are very proud of the fact that we received the report, and we certainly made it public. Mr. Reimer: I find this very passing strange.

In the report it states that legislative changes are recommended. I am asking the Premier (Mr. Doer): Will he tell this House whether legislative changes will be introduced in regard to the casinos, their allocations, their tran sparency and the accountab ility of the dollars to the proponents and to Manitobans? Will there be legislative changes brought in? Mr. Lemieux: Just to reiterate again, we just received the report. We are certainly going through it just as others are going through it. We are reading it carefully and certainly we will consider anyth ing that is needed. Mr.

Reimer: This is certainly an exercise in wind and rabbit traps here because they have the report, they have read the report, now they are saying they are studying the report. I wonder whether the First Nations are in the same type of conf usion. No wonder they do not know whether they are going to get casinos. Mr. Speaker: Order. The Hon ourable Government House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I wonder if we could ask the Member if he could formulate a question before he rises? Beauchesne's Citation 410 says supplementary questions require no

preamble. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised, the Hon ourable Member does have a point of order. Beauchesne's Citation 409(2) advises that a

213 0 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 2000 supplementary question should not require a

preamble. I ask the Honourable Member to please put his question. * * * Mr. Reimer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Premier (Mr. Doer), given the knowledge that there is need for legislative changes, be delaying the creation of the First Nations casinos until such time as the nece ssary legislation has been brought forward? Mr. Lemieux: We are certainly pleased to accept the report. It does not mean approve the report, and certainly it says Manitoba may wish to consider amendments. So we are taking a look at this report. We have just received it.

We are looking through the issues that may have arisen or may arise and certainly, as it states, may wish to consider amendments to the existing legislation. First Nations Casinos Alternate Sites Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, the Minis ter of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr. Robinson) has a duty to protect the interests of Aboriginal people, and yet we have seen a circumstance in the last few days where the Premier who Friday opened the door to a casino in Headingley has now slammed it shut. The Premier said yesterday: Headingley now in my view does not meet the conditions, period.

My question is for the Minis ter of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs. Why did the Min ister fail to protect First Nations' interests by ensuring a process for selection of the casino sites in which what happened we had approved applications which failed to meet the basic conditions. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Member for River Heights quotes what I said. I was quoted on Friday and what I was quoted as saying yesterday: We said that all proposals must meet the conditions.

We were asked specifically about Headingley, quoted on Friday, quoted again yesterday, and I feel the statements are very consis tent. Mr. Gerrard: My supplementary is to the Minis ter of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs and his responsibil ity for community economic development. To what extent are approved applications dependent on the site mentioned in the application? Could, for exa mple, the Swan Lake Band build their casino in partnership with another First Nation community in Dakota Tipi or Buffalo Point communities? Hon.

Eric Robinson (Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs): I want to assure the Member that we did this very carefully. We did this in partnership with the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs and with the thought in mind of what the Bostrom report indi cated that we need to address housing, unemployment, poverty in Manitoba First Nations communities. I believe that we have done that. We have achieved that. The first step was, of course, accepting the recommendations by the selection committee which we have adopted in principle by this government.

Secondly, we are going to get to work on the implementation process of these casinos, and there is a lot of work to be done. Mr. Gerrard: My supplementary to the Min ister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs. My question is simply: Is an applicant which has been accepted in the process free to move to an alternate site if they can make that case? Mr. Robinson: Mr. Speaker, the Government has accepted in principle the recommendations of the selection committee. All I ask of all members of this House, let us give First Nations people an opportunity to prove themselves. First Nations Casinos Economic Impact Mr.

John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, in Saturda y's Free Press a spokesperson for the Min ister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Lemieux) acknowledged that this NDP Government has not had any studies to determine the economic impact that these five additional casinos will have on Crown gambling revenue . I would like to ask this Minis ter, the Minis ter of Consumer and Corporate Affairs: Given that Crown gambling revenue has levelled off during the last few years and has actually decreased in the third quarter of this year, will

June 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2131 commit and explain to this House why his government has not studied the economic impact and the loss of revenue that will be affected by adding five new casinos? Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Mr. Sp eaker, surely a sign of open government is when two mini sters want to answer the same question. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Ms. McGifford: Mr. Speaker, as I assured the Member yesterday, the biggest threat to casino revenues in this province, what most puts casino revenues at jeopardy in this province are: (

a) a $70-million overrun in expansion; (

b) a long term debt growing from $55 million to $170 million, with no plan for repa yment, inherited from this former government; and ( c }- An Honourable Member: Sit down if you do not have an answer. Mr. Speaker: Order. order. The Honourable Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Sp eaker. Beauchesne's Citation 417 : "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." Clearly, the Honourable Minis ter raced to her feet just to provoke debate. Mr.

Speaker: The Honour able Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Min ister was certainly answering the question. The question was about lottery revenues flowing to the province as a result of the administrat ion of Lotteries in the province. That is exactly what the Minis ter was answering. Also, Mr. Speaker, I ask you to draw the Member for Carman (Mr. Rocan) to order. His abusive behaviour to the Minis ter is uncalled for. It is out of character.

I do not know "Yhat his problem is, but I ask that you remind the Member to show respect to the Honourable Member who is answering the question. Mr. Speaker: The Hon ourable Member for Carman, on the same point of order. * (14:20) Mr. Denis Rocan (Carman): On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. I would like to refer to Beauchesne's 416(1): "A Minis ter may decline to answer a question without stating the reason for refusing, and insis tence on an answer is out of order." I did not ask her to put her question. I said sit down because you do not have the answer.

I knew I would be out of order by asking or insisting on an answer, and I knew she did not have it. Mr. Speaker: Order, order. On the point of order raised, when answers to questions sometimes differ from what the person expects, this time I will rule that this is a dispute over the facts. I would like to just ask all members for a little bit of patience. I know there are strong convictions on both sides. Just have a little patience. *** Mr. Speaker: I would like the Hon ourable Member to please conclude her answer. Ms. McGifford: Mr. Speaker, I made my (

a) and (

b) points. My (

c) point is again a ref erence to the previous administra tion's management of Lotteries. I just wanted to point out that 11 years of cavalier management, which ended on January 7, 2000, have really harmed the revenues from Lotteries as well. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minis ter responsible for Lotteries. I would ask the Min ister if she agrees or disagrees with the legislation, the Bill that was introduced, Bill 203 , into this House by her NDP party called The Lotteries Accounta bility and Conseq uential Amendmen ts Act. Would she not agree with this bill that was introduced that calls

213 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 2000 for a study to examine the social costs and the economic impact costs before expansion of gambling, before, as they have doubled, doubled gambling in this province? Does she not agree that there should be a study on the social costs and the economic costs to this province, and this bill that they introduced, in particular, points to aboriginal gaming and points to the effect, the social and economic impact on children in rural Manitoba? Mr. Speaker: Order. The Hon ourable Government House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I was trying to discern a question there. Beauchesne 's Citation 410 says supplement ary questions require no

preamble. I heard a lot of ambling. I did not quite hear a question, but certainly if there was a question, it was surrounded by

preambles, midambles, and postambles. Would you please ask the Member that, when he puts a supplemen tary question, it requires no

preamble. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the Honourable Government House Leader, Beauchesne's Citation 409(2) advises that a supplement ary question should not require a

preamble. * * * Mr. Speaker: The Honou rable Member, please put your question. Mr. Loewen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is simple, to the Min ister: Does she agree with the articles in Bill 203 that was introduced by her party when in opposition to have an economic impact study and a study on social costs prior to doubling and prior to increasing gamblin g in the province of Manitoba ? Ms. McGifford: I will attempt to answer that rather labyrinthine and conf using question. But I think the answer is that the study that the Member opposite asked for has already been done.

In fact, it was the Bostrom report commissioned by his government, the First Nations Gaming Policy Review Report submitted October I 5, 1997. I might also add, while I am on my feet, that, as the members opposite know, this government supports First Nations people in their economic development and in their desire for gainful employment. That is our position, fairness. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Pembina Constituency Events Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): As is often the case, I spent last Friday in my constituency.

I had the opportunity to spend time in both Winkler and Morden, both of which had exciting events going on. I want to say a few words about both of them here today. In the morning I was pleased to attend the Rural Provincial Track and Field Championship being hosted by Winkler 's Garden Valley Collegiate. The field of competitors was made up of over I 000 high school athletes from across rural Manitoba. The hard work, sportsmanship and excellence displayed by these young athletes was most impressive. and I was honoured to present the first round of gold medals.

Students from the Pembina constituency did very well, with the Garden Valley team winning both the senior and junior girls' competitions and placing second in the junior boys' competition. Congratu lations to all those athletes who competed, and I wish them all the best of luck. A special congra tulations to Lenore Friesen from Garden Valley for being named Junior Girls' Athlete of the Meet. After taking in some of the events at the track meet, I travelled to Morden to attend the 4- H rally being held there. The activities opened with a parade and later featured 4-H judging in a host of different categories.

Judged events ranged from seamstress work to cattle competitions. It was a lot of fun for both those who participated and those who attended. I commend the 4-H organ izers for the great event and for their generous contributions to the community. Once again, congratulations to all winners.

June 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 213 3 Both of these events were highlights of my constituency, and I thank the people of both Winkler and Morden for their enthusiasm and dedication to community activities such as these. Thank you. Second Start Program Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): I would like to commend the Second Start Alterna tive Education Program at Sturgeon Creek Collegiate in the St. James school division.

Second Start is for students who want to complete their education but find that financial straits, personal circumstances, a strong streak of independence, or any of a myriad of other factors make the traditional intensively paced school year difficult or impossible. Second Start gives teenagers the flexibility of earning their high school credits at their own pace as the circumstances permit. Flexibil ity is also built into Second Start' s attendance policy, allowing students to do much of their studying independently at home, should they choose.

The teachers work with them in small groups. rather than a structured classroom setting. There are many other features of the program, which acknowledge the distinctiveness of students enrolled in it. For instance, it offers computer-assisted ins truction in math and English, a seminar on skills for independent living, weekly access to a social worker and a community health nurse and the use of kitchen facilities. Second Start is more than just another way to complete high school. Many of these students would have, for lack of a decent alternative, been headed towards the margins of society.

By choosing Second Start, they are g1vmg themselves the prospects of a reasonable livelihood and stable social ties. There are some sing ular individuals in this program, and I congratula te them on their efforts to get back on track with their studies, in spite of the obstacles. I would like to mention just one of them, Janet Beauchamp [phonetic] who won an award in a competition for devising and writing a business plan. Before the Second Start Program opened up, she had been out of school for three years.

It also takes some very special people to teach in the program, and I would like to pay tribute to them: Jeff Chartrand, who heads up Second Start, Susan Barron, Yubi Gill, Warren Nightengale and Jan Carley. Second Start Program, both its staff and students, certainly deserve support and encouragement in their ongoing development and future success. Thank you. Winnipeg International Air Show Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): Mr. Speaker, tens of thousands of Manitobans enjoyed the spectacular sights and sounds of the Six th Annual Winnipeg International Air Show over this past weekend.

Manitobans young and old attended the event at the Winnipeg International Airport. Visitors were able to get a first-hand look at scores of aircraft from Cana dian and British fighter jets to the gigantic U.S. military cargo planes. The Air Show is very much a hands-on experience, allowing visitors to actually touch these amazing machines they usually would only see from a distance.

It is estimated that over 50 000 people took in the sunny weather by visiting the Air Show to watch the flying demonstra tions and stunts, including the heart racing flying of the famed Snowbirds, Canada's precision military flying team. * (14:30) The Snowbirds are one of the biggest attractions in North America, and this was their first visit to Manitoba since 1997. They certainly did not disappoint, wowing the crowd with their precise formation flying and their daring aerial exploits. I would like to congratulate Mr.

Barry Lynds, the show director, his brother, Darrell, who is a constituent of mine, their families and the volunteer force of 400 people who make the Winnipeg International Air Show a success year after year. Thank you, Mr. Spe aker.

213 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 2000 Leadership Circle Program Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity today to recognize the successful Rotary Leadership Circle program. The program will operate again this summer with $35 ,000 in funding by the province through the Winnipeg Development Agreement. The Leadership Circle initia tive targets at risk youth between the ages of 10 and 14 for a six-week period each summer. The program provides participants with summer work experience and positive community activities.

Leaders receive a small stipend for their participation in community beautification projects, volunteer outings and work at their local drop-in centre. Through participation in these activities, youth develop a sense of pride in both their community and themselves. They also receive a modest amount of money to purchase items deemed a luxury in many inner city households. A bit of economic freedom allows these individuals to purchase items like school supplies or running shoes. The Leadership Circle program began as a I 0-week pilot project in the summer of 1996.

It was designed and implemented through a unique partnersh ip of the Rotary Club of Winnipeg, the Winnipeg Coalition of Drop-In Centres and the United Way. Today 12 centres, including Winnipeg Native Alliance, The Winnipeg Boys and Girls Club and a number of other organ izations deliver the program in inner city neighbourhoods. I applaud the dedication shown by these groups in providing opportunities for at risk youth in the city. Apprenticeship Graduates Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr.

Speaker, I rise today to congratulate the highest achieving apprenti ces who were recently acknowledged at an awards ceremony. The 35 new journeypersons were recognized for attaining the highest marks in their trade and acquired the on the- job skills required to finish their final level of appren ticeship training. Graduates in each trade were selected for the awards based on the on-the- job performance, examination results and by recommendations from their apprenticeship employer and technical instructor.

Apprentice ship programs consist of two to five years of on the- job training combined with technical in school training. Within Manitoba there are more than 4000 apprentices who are enrolled in 51 designated trades. Approximately 500 Manitobans graduate each year with journeyperson certification and enter Manitoba's workforce. The appren ticeship program is a valuable asset to Manitoba and to our young people who develop valuable work skills. Skilled employees create a qualified workforce that meets the employment needs of ind ustry and business throughout our province.

I would like to congratulate all Manitobans who are currently enr olled in the appren ticeship program, those who are graduating and especially this year's top apprentices who received highest achievement awards in their trade. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. CORRIGENDUM Vol . L No. 38 B - 1:30 p.m .. Thursday.

June I. 2000, page 1923, under READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Winnipeg Police Athletic Clubs, the last three paragraphs of the petition should read: THAT the Winnipeg Police Athletic Clubs provide an excellent example of communities partnering with government, schools and law enforcement to provide a safe place for youth to go: and THAT many parents throughout Winnipeg are very concerned that the Government of Manitoba may choose to close the Winnipeg Police Athletic Clubs.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Justice encourage the Government of Manitoba to continue partnering with schools and law enf orcement to ensure Winnipeg Police Athletic Clubs provide recreational and athletic activities for young people in a safe, supervised environment in 13 schools throughout Winnipeg for years to come.

June 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 213 5 ORDERS OF THE DA Y Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the Minis ter of Highways and Government Services (Mr. Ashton), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to. Mr. Speaker: Mr. Deputy Speaker, please take the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) FINANCE Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order this afternoon. This

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consider ation of the Estimates ofthe Department of Finance. When the Committee last sat, it had been considering item 7.1 1.(b)(

l) Sinking Fund Investments on page 85 of the Estimates, ($334, 200,000). Shall the item pass? Mr. Eric Stefanson (Kirkfield Park): I will maybe just seize the opportunity while some staff is still here as to whether or not the Min ister has any inf ormation to table today relative to the number of issues that he took as notice and indica ted he would be providing us with feedback. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Just the document, the original speaking notes at the opening session. Mr. Stefanson: I am wondering, Mr.

Chairman, if the Minis ter could give me an approximate date when we can expect the response to most of the questions that he took as notice. Mr. Selinger: We should be able to provide that material later on in this month. St aff are working on it, and when it comes available, I will be ta bling it with you. Mr. Stefanson: Could we then agree that we would expect to have most if not all of that inf ormation no later than-if we could agree on some date, certainly before the end of the month or a date something like June 25 or thereabouts? Mr.

Selinger: We will make our best efforts to do that, and we will try to get it to you as. soon as we can. Mr. Stefanson: Could we agree that I would have a response at least to all of it, and if the Minis ter is unable to provide the inf ormation, that he could provide me with an expla nation as to why he is unable to do so? Mr. Selinger: Like I said, as soon as I have had a chance to review the material and have received it all, I will get it out to you, and I will try to do it by the end of the month. Mr.

Stefanson: Is the Minis ter in a position to provide any further update today on where he is at with his proposed amendments to the balanced budget legislation? Mr. Selinger: A Cabinet submission has been prepared, and as soon as Cabinet has had a chance to deal with it, then we will move from there to make it available and table it in the Legislature. So it is getting to a stage where we can start talking about it. Mr. Stefanson: Is it expected that that submission will be dealt with in Cabinet this week on Wednesday? Mr. Selinger: That is at the control of the chair of the Cabinet meeting.

We will see how it goes and I will let you know. Mr. Stefanson: Is it the Minis ter's hope and expectation that it can be dealt with as early as this week? Mr. Selinger: Once again, my previous answer stands. The agenda is contr olled by the First Min ister (Mr. Doer), and we will see how it goes in terms of how he wants to structure the agenda. Mr. Stefanson: Just so I am clear, then, Mr. Chairman, the Minis ter is saying that he has submitted a Cabinet submission on the proposed balanced budget legislative amendments, and it is up to the Premier as to whether or not it is dealt with this Wednesday. Mr.

Selinger: No, I am not saying that. I am saying a Cabinet submission is close to being completed, if not completed, and it is up to the First Minis ter to decide when he wants to put it on the agenda. * (14:50)

213 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 2000 Mr. Stefanson : So, then, just to clarify what I thought the Minis ter said earlier that the submission was completed, he is now saying it is not complete. If so, when does he expect to have his submission completed? Mr. Selinger: As I said, a Cabinet submission has been prepared, and it will be at the call of the First Mini ster who chairs the Cabinet meetings as to when he wants to deal with it. Mr. Stefanson: So, then, just to clarify it, Mr.

Chairman, a Cabinet submission has been completed, and it is now up to-1 guess I am saying what I said earlier, that a Cabinet submission has been completed and it has been submitted, and he is saying that it is up to the Premier (Mr. Doer) whether or not it is on the agenda as early as this Wednesday. Mr. Selinger: I am saying we have completed a Cabinet submission. It will be at the call of the First Minis ter whether he wishes to place it on the agenda. Mr. Stefanson: I think we just said the same thing, Mr. Chairman. What I would like to confirm is the timin g from the Minis ter's perspective.

Does he antici pate that the issues around the balanced budget legislation will require amendments to be int roduced in this legislative session, and does he have a fixed time line as to when they have to be dealt by? Mr. Selinger: Once again, the Budget Address referenced that, and I answered that question previously. It will be up to the call of the Chair of Cabinet as to when he wants to move it on to the agenda, along with all the other items that are being dealt with. Mr. Stefanson: With all due respect, the answer was never clear on this issue.

I am not going to go back over all of the questions I asked the Minis ter before. We were asking some specific questions as to whether or not legislative amendments were required as a result of his budget. We did not get a high degree of clarity around the timing of those legislative amendments. He did acknowledge that the pension liability issue required a legislative amendment, that there might be other amendments relative to tran sparency issues and so on.

What I am trying to get at is the timing of those legislative amendments and when he feels the legislation has to be int roduced and, more importantly, when it has to be dealt with. Mr. Selinger: Once again, those timing issues are at the will and pleasure of Cabinet. The First Mini ster has the decision as to when he wishes to place items on the agenda. I cannot pre-empt that process by staking out exactly how it will unf old until it has been dealt with at that level. Mr. Stefanson: I am not asking for that process to be pre-em pted.

I am just trying to determine if there is a requirement, as a result of the Budget for certain amendments. Then there might well be required time lines to put those in effect, and that is what I am trying to get some clarity on from the Minis ter. Mr. Selinger: Once again, I wish I could give more clarity on the specific time frame, with respect to the pension liability issue, in particular. but that is not possible until there has been a thorough discussion by Cabinet and a decision by the Premier that he wants to move that on to the agenda in a way that it can be dealt with. Mr. Stefanson: Mr.

Chairman, I think we are prepared to move these along. Mr. Chairperson: We will return to 11. Public Debt (Statutory). We will read these into the record: (

b) Less: Interest and Other Charges to be received from:

(1) Sinking Fund Investment: ($334,2 00,000);

(2) Manitoba Hydro ($498,23 1 ,400);

(3) Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation ($37, 143,200);

(4) Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation ($20,945,50 0);

(5) Other Government Agencies ($11 ,789,800);

(6) Other Loans and Investments ($69,648, 700). Public Debt (Statutory) ($474,475,000). The last item to be conside red for the Estimates of the Department of Fin ance is I. (

a) Min ister's Salary. At this point we request that the Minis ter's staff leave the table for the consi deration of this item. 7. 1. Administ ration and Finance (

a) Min ister's Sala ry $27,300. Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I have a number of questions and comments in this area, but I think some other members do as well. I realize we are at the point where the Min ister's staff has left, so in some cases the Min ister might be able

June 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 213 7 to respond, in some cases, if it is a new question , he might need to take parts of it as notice. I believe the Member from Portage Ia Prairie has a question, and I think some other members might, before I ask my concluding question. Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): In regard to the financing of last year's Pan American Games, there were signifi cant monies advanced in regard to that particular undertak ing.

The April 22nd Free Press reported that there have been signifi cant monies that have been reported to be left over, if I might use that term, from that particular sporting event. My understand ing is that the monies that are in a surplus position after the Games were concl uded- would the Minis ter elaborate as to the percentages, as to the allocation of those monies and essentially who is responsible for the distribution or overall responsibi lity if those monies are to remain in a trust fund or a legacy account? Mr.

Selinger: I will have to take the specifics of that question as notice, but I believe the Minis ter responsible for that is the Minis ter of Sport and Recreation, who, you might have thought, was the Mini ster of Finance because they were combined responsibilities under the former government. Under this government, the Mini ster of Sport and Recreation is also the Minis ter of Health, and so I believe he is respon sible for the process of finally allocating that surplus. Mr.

Faurschou: I appreciate the Minis ter's response, but I do believe that it was 25 percent of the surplus monies was to be returned to the Government, and the government department receiving those monies, according to my understanding, was that of Fin ance. I stand to be corrected, however. That, I believe, was the original agreement, and I would like the Minis ter to respond, please. Mr. Selinger: I will take that as notice and find out the specifics on how the surplus back to the Government was to be dealt with. Mr.

Faurschou: In the balance of the monies, I stand to ask of the Minister of Health responsible for sport. Mr. Selinger: The Minis ter of Health is also the Min ister of Sport and Recreation, and as I understand it, he was dealing with the Pan Am surplus. Mr. Faursch ou: The other question I have for the Minis ter of Finance is in fact on the Revenue document that accompanied the Budget documents which were received and passed May 10. In regard to a question that I posed in the Estimates committee where the Minister of Highways was in attendance, asked that the question was better posed to the Minis ter of Finance.

The Mini ster of Finance, could he answer as to the actual combination of taxes or specific fuels that are listed in item (

d) gasoline tax and in item (

i) motive fuel tax, to be very specific as to what fuels, what automobile or particular engine would be using the particular fuels? The reason I ask this question is to find out. Designated transport trucks, are they in motive fuel, using diesel fuel? Are transport trucks in gasoline tax because they are on the roadway? These are the questions that I would like to pose to him. * (15:00) Mr. Selinger: Just for clarity, the Member is asking me to give a breakout of (

d) gasoline tax and (

i) motive fuel tax, as to which vehicles are the revenue sources for those lines. Is that what you are seeking? I will take that as notice, and I will ask our officials to try and clarify that and break that up for you. Mr. Faursch ou: I want to also make certain that the aircraft and locomotive conveya nce-! believe in last year's budget the bunker fuels that were taken on by ocean-g oing vessels out of Churchill were no longer in existence. However, these are the types of breakdown that I would appreciate having in this regard.

The reason for my questioning is in fact that the signifi cant motive fuels, which I believe are emanating from the use of fuel for trains passing to and fro within Manitoba , and there is signific ant expend iture associated with the road network when it comes in contact with the rail network within our province. Being the Member for Portage Ia Prairie, where there is the busiest rail yard in not only Manitoba but I mean the nation-more than 70 units come through Portage on a daily basis and, when one does the math on that, on average 3 units of 120-plus cars on a daily b�is through Portage Ia Prairie.

There has been cancellation

2138 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 2000 and now declared surplus the land that the Highways Department, the Government of Manitoba, had purchased for provisions of either overpass or underpasses that would make traffic flow on the Tran s-Canada unint errupted. The reason that these lands have now become surplus is because there is not adequate funding within the Highways budget to accommodate such expenditures.

Yet I say to you, sir, as the Minister of Fin ance, in this regard, if motive fuel taxes are being collected and going into general revenues and their required expenditu res under Highways that are directly related to that rail network, the case is very strong that certain allocations of that motive fuel should be directed to the Highways Department for expenditu res related to that rail network? I hope I have not lost the train of thought with the Minis ter. This is the reason for the line of questioning, and if the Min ister has a response, I would certainly appreciate it. Mr.

Selinger: I think I understand the point of view of the Member. I think he is suggesting that there might be some taxes collected through motive fuels that might be avai lable for public works related to those activities, and he wants me to sort of check the sources of those revenues and to see how they are presently allocated and whether they could be dedicated to that purpose. I will take as notice the question to check out the sources of those fuels, taxes and where they go at the moment.

We will try to get an idea of that whether they go into general revenue, whether they are in any way allocated in proportionate terms to inf rastructure such as Highways, et cetera. Mr. Faurschou: I appreciate him looking into that because it is extensive. There are hundreds of thousands and millions in some years that are expended towards traffic control devices at level crossings. There are the new rubberized crossings that are used.

These are expenditures directly related to rail traffic, and if we are not getting some of that rail revenue back into the Highways budget, then the comments that are being made, that 98-plus percent of all designated tax revenues are not being spent on that particular designated expenditure. So that is where I am coming forward, and we in Portage Ia Prairie asked for some minor repairs and were this year denied by the grant in aid which is a signi ficant concern to Portage Ia Prairie residents simply because of the extensive rail traffic. So I appreciate the Mini ster's response and look forward to receiving it.

Mr. Selinger: I note the Mini ster of Highways (Mr. Ashton) has joined us on this transpor tation inf rastructure question. We will take that. We will try to break out what the sources of revenues are for those two lines and get a sense in global terms where that money goes. Of course, you get to see the specific capital allocations in the Highways Department. Once we get that inf ormation, I will also provide it to the Minis ter of Highways, and then one of us will get back to you with the response on that. Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I have a question for the Minister first on the issue of pension liabilities. You have put in a sum of $21 million this year toward covering off pension liabilities. yet, clearly, given the extent of the liabilities, that is only a tiny fraction of what one would expect given the size of the accumulative liabilities. I just wonder if you could explain what your further plans are going to be to look after this area. Mr. Selinger: As the Member might know. the pension liabilities stopped being paid around 1961.

At that time, other priorities were consi dered to be more pressing, one of which was the Red River Floodway which I think has proven to be a strong investment. The $2 1 million would be part of a long term plan to address the pension liability. In the first in stance, it would cover off new employees, teachers and civil servants, which we estimate their pension liability coming into the system to be in the order of $4 million, and then the remaining $17 million would be dedicated toward the existing unf unded liability. There was some actuarial work done.

That is still being fine-tuned, but the idea would be to retire that liability over the next 33 years. That is the idea. It took 39 years to get there. We would like to retire it roughly in that time frame. More details will be available on that once the proper due diligence is done on the actuarial studies. I note that other provinces have longer plans, such as Quebec. They have a 50-yea r plan

June 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 213 9 to address it. What is important is that we start biting into it and take those steps. It cannot all be dealt with in, say, three or four years without extreme problems in other areas of the Budget. The other thing I would note is that the bond raters appreciate the fact that this is being addressed and think it is a wise move on our part to do that. So we think we have taken a solid first step, and then we will go forward with a long -term plan. Mr. Gerrard: You mentioned the $4 million.

That is to cover this year's liability, I presume, and the rest is the previous unf unded liability. The unf unded liability which, as I recall, is in the order of $2 bill ion, it would seem that $17 million would take a lot more than 33 years to get there. Mr. Selinger: What can I say? I do not want to sound like a bank commercial, but it is calied the power of compounding interest and the kind of inves tments that would be made. We would be directing our officials to invest that money through the Civil Service Superannua tion Fund and/or the TRAF, the retirement fund for teachers, into addressing that.

The experience of those funds has been quite good in terms of their return on investment. The preliminary projections that I saw indica ted that we might be able to come to a resolution of that issue in the period of about 33 years.

Now, that might change a couple of years on either side, hopefully on the good side, not necess arily the bad side, but the point is that it is a problem that has built up over 39 years, and it is a problem that will probably take roughly the same magnitude of order of time to address, hopefully less than the time it took to build up, and by putting this first down payment down, it is a step in the right direction. As I get further inf ormation, I would be happy to share it with the Member for River Heights, so that he can get a better understa nding of the detail of that. * (15:10 ) Mr.

Gerrard: You brought up the TRAF, the retired teachers. They clearly have an issue this year, that they feel that they are not going to get in their retirement pension an incr ease which is consis tent with the cost of living. I wondered if you were going to address this and whether this was dealt with in the Budget and allowed for in the Budget. Mr. Selinger: I know that issue is being studied as to what can be done to address the-I believe the Member is referring to the ind exation of retirement benefits for existing members who are already retired.

I know that issue is being studied, and when it is resolved, there will be an announcement forthcoming, most likely through the Minis ter of Education (Mr. Caldwell) who is responsible for that area. Mr. Gerrard: The next area that I would like to ask about is the area of environmental liabilities. The first question would be has the province conducted an inven tory of what are existing or potential envi ronme ntal liabilities? Mr. Selinger: I think that question is properly the purview of the Minis ter of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin).

If he wishes, we could try to get that inf ormation from that department, but as I look down at the other end of the room I am certain that my officials in Fin ance are not equipped to answer that question. Mr. Gerrard: The reason that I ask you that question and I ask that question here is that, just like pension liabilities and understa nding what the numbers are, it would seem to me that a Minis ter of Fin ance, if he is going to account for the situation of the Province from a financial perspective, should have a handle on what the potential financial costs of envir onmen tal liabilities are. Mr.

Selinger: I appreciate that you think I should know all the costs for all these exposures. In some cases, those costs have not yet been quan tified, for example, orphan mine sites. Some of the costs are not clear there. I think I share with the Member a concern that we get a handle on what these exposures are and that there be, once again, a plan to address that, even if it is a long-ter m plan. But the legislative and statutory responsibil ity for that specific area rests with another minis ter. As that min ister zeroes in on those issues through his

2140 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 2000 officials who have the technical expertise to do that kind of evaluation, then the cost numbers start emerging. We certainly would consider them at Treasury Board and at Cabinet before we allocated resources that way or made provisions to deal with that. All I can say for certain is that our officials do not have that technical expertise to evaluate that in terms of the assessment that is required to look at the exposure in these cases. Mr. Gerrard: I would explore that just a little bit more.

I think, whether one is talking about governments or companies, that environmen tal liabilities are an important assessment of where one stands at the moment. Certainly with what is happening in terms of the hog indust ry, what is happening with concerns about Lake Winnipeg and so on and so forth, getting a handle on what the financial implications of government actions are is going to be important for the long run. I would hope that you at least would be ready to make the commitment to look at this seriously, what the financial potential implications are over the course of the coming year. Mr.

Selinger: Once again, I have an interest, as I think the Member has, in what potential exposures we have on the envir onmental side and what potential costs they might require the Province to incur, particularly in the case of cleanup. So I have no problem in pursuing that with the Minis ter of Conservation and environment, but it is properly his responsibilit y to assess that with his officials. So I would hope the Member would direct his question there during that minis ter's Estimates.

That is not to put pressure on him like the Minis ter of Highways seems to have done with me in his diversion of his question on railway crossings and related inf rastructure. But the reality is that is the proper place to do it, because there is a technical requirement there in terms of the expertise brought to bear to make these assessments. With respect to potential downstream liabilities, I think those are important as well.

I know t he mini sters of Agriculture and Intergovernmental Affairs and of environment and Conservation are looking at a livestock manage ment land use strategy to try to get in front of those issues before these issues become liabilities with dollars attached to them to prevent them, because that obviously is the cheapest way to solve this problem, to prevent it up front. I know that is important. I believe there might even be an announcement today by the Min ister of Agriculture (Ms.

Wowchuk) along with her colleagues in that regard in terms of a livestock management strategy that would also have some clear implications for the envir onmental exposure or liabilities that might be incurred in the future. Mr. Gerrard: Just to close on this particular question by making the point that, just like the pension liabilities end up on the Min ister of Fin ance , this is something I think, even though it may fall under another department, the bottom line is it is pretty important for the Minis ter of Finance to be on top of it.

I would ask now about one more area that has the cost implications for major spending on the Red River system to make sure that Winnipeg is adequately protected. What I would ask is. given the size of the numbers that have been floating around. whether the Mini ster has given this any attention or any planning at this point. Mr.

Selinger: Once again the provincial government has received a report I believe from the International Joint Commission with a couple of scenarios for enhancing protection for the city of Winnipeg, one of them being expansion of the Red River Floodway, the other being the possibility of a dike which would hold the water back but would have negative implications for communities south of the dike. We would favour a solution I believe that had the least amount of negative implications for any community in Manitoba. We made a strategic investment in the Budget this year.

We have identified some resources to address increasing the effectiveness of the inlet to the Red River Floodway, hopefully cost shared with other levels of government, particularly the federal government. I know there have been some discussions there, not by myself directly, but through the other min isters and the First Min ister's office. That investment could generate up to a 10% incr ease

June 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2141 in the capacity of the floodway for a modest amount of dollars. So we wanted to move on that quickly while we assess the costs and the ways and means to look at a longer term solution which would in crease the capacity of the floodway to allow for that hundred-y ear threat or threshold to be addressed. It is a daunting challenge. The numbers are huge, in the order of half a billion dollars and up. Obviously those dollars would be spread over a certain number of years.

If we look at how the original Red River Floodway was fina nced when it was undertaken by Duf f Roblin and his government, there was, I believe, a 60-40 cost sharing with the federal government on that. We would certainly be interested in their coming to the table to partner with us on any long-term potential for improving the capacity of that resource to protect Winnipe ggers and the assets that are within the city of Winnipeg. I believe I have heard a figure where those assets could be valued at somewhere up to $18 billion.

So it is an important issue that requires ongoing planning an d discussion, but I can assure you that this government is not closing the door on what could be done there. We are looking at reasonable ways of how that can be addressed. * (15:20) Mr. Gerrard; Just to bring that full circle, we talked about pension liabilities earlier on. You mentioned that in '6 1 the pension liabilities payment was stopped at the time that the Red River Floodway was put in.

I would just ask you to put on the record what your view this time would be as to whether you would again consider stopping looking after pension liabilities, whether in fact you would make sure that they continue to be paid while you are dealing with whatever improvements have to be made if it is a several hundred million dollar payment. Mr. Selinger: I am not sure that we could make a trade-of f this time between those two issues. The conditions are different. In the '60s it was a relatively young civil service. The pension liabilities were downs tream.

There were pretty optimistic projections about growth of the economy over the ensuing 30-some years. We are in a different situation now. We .have a relatively mature civil service with many retirements coming up in the next few years just on the demographics alone with the baby boomers. The pressures are real and pressing in that area and are growing on an annual basi s. On the other hand, there is a signifi cant resource in place to protect the city of Winnipeg, an investment there that was made many years ago that needs to be enhanced an d improved.

It is most likely the case that both issues would have to be addressed in some reasonable fashion, because both issues could have serious implications for the Government of Manitoba and obviously the people of Manitoba. Mr. Gerrard: I am not suggesting that you trade them off. Rather, I was looking for reassurance that this time around you would not make that trade-of f, because it would seem to me pretty important that the pension liabil ities not be left outstanding. Mr. Selinger: I think I have answered that by saying I do not think we can trade those two off against each other this time.

We would have to find more effective ways to address both. The ways are to acquire resources. Other ways are to extend time lines. But in the main, both of them cannot be ignored, and we have to find some practical way to move forward on both fronts. Mr. Gerrard: That completes my questions. Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Chairman, I would like to go back to the issue of delinking. The Minis ter was kind enough to give us the bullets he had for the introductory comments. I would just like to make sure we are clear.

Some of that on page 5 indi cates that legislation will be introduced in the current session to implement this new personal income tax system to the benefit of all Manitobans. I guess my question would be to him. Is he in agreement that what he attempted to do was to adjust the tax system that was in place prior to his budget on May 9? Did he attempt to adjust that for the benefit of all Manitobans with this budget? Mr. Selinger: Yes.

2142 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 2000 Mr. Loewen: Mr. Chairman, it also indica tes in this document the introd uction of, and I am quoting, across-the-bo ard tax reductions through enhanced nonref undable tax credits and adjustable tax brackets. Again, I would ask the Minis ter: Is he suggesting that he is providing in his budget across-the- board tax reductions for individu als as opposed to their situation on May 9? Mr. Selinger: Yes. It is clearly the case that people will be paying less taxes under our new system. Mr.

Loewen: On the following page the statement is made that the legislation will provide meaningful tax relief for Manitoba ns. Again, does that apply to what was in place on May 9 as opposed to what came into effect as a result of the budget on May 1 0? Mr. Selinger: We do intend to provide meaningful tax relief to Manitobans. I think the Member may have been mistaken in his assumptions around May 9. The delinking decision was made in principle in December with the notice requirements of the federal government.

Our objective was to provide tax relief this year through the commitments we made and next year and the year after that. The year 200 1 tax relief is in the order of $68 million. The year after that our commitment is $34 million on the income tax side. I think I have mentioned several times what we committed and followed through to on this year $40 million, January 1, on the income tax side; $24-25 million on the property tax credit; $1 O m ill ion tax benefits through base changes initia ted by the federal government and of course a small-business tax reduction as well. Mr. Loewen: Mr.

Chairman, I appreciate the fact that the Minis ter has mentioned on numerous occasions that they made the decision to delink prior to December but, having made the decision to delink at some subsequent point, they made the decision to introduce new rates, new income tax rates, new income tax brackets to the people of Manitoba. They did that on May 10. It would be nice. Unf ortunately, it is not the case that from January 1 to May 9 there was not a lack of a tax regime. There was a tax regime in place.

Manitobans were paying tax from January 1 to May 9 based on legislation, based on the previous government's budget for 1999-2000, based on the federal government's budget for '99-2000. Again the Mini ster has confirmed that in his statement he is indic ating that all Manit obans will benefit from this new tax system as a result of his budget. I would just like him to clarify. Is he referring to they will benefit from where they were on May 9? Mr.

Selinger: Once again, I think I have explained to the Member on more than one occasion that we brought in several signi ficant tax breaks this year starting January 1, supplemented with the property tax reduction announced in the Budget on May 10. We also brought in a small-business tax reduction on January 1.

In the May 10 budget, we passed through an additional $10 million in base rate changes, and, of course. we have made commitments to offer further tax relief in the last quarter of this budget year, starting January 1, 2001, which would carry through for the balance of the calenda r year of 200 1 and then additional tax relief in calenda r year 2002, so all in, we have made a signi ficant move on income tax reduction that we did not run on in the election, that we did not promise in the election.

We have gone beyond the election commitments signific antly in what we are offering Manit obans and delivering on what we said we would do. Mr. Loewen: Just for clarification and I guess I will have to take a little different approach to this question because the Minis ter I think seems to be unwilling to answer what is a fairly straightforward question. On page 4 of this document, he talks about the 2000-200 1 tax credit program. Just for clarification because he has used a number of $26 million repeatedly throughout the period we have been in this committee, in this document it says it is $23 .9 million.

I realize they are rough numbers. Is there a difference in there that I am missing somewhere? Mr. Selinger: No, I do not think so. It was an approximate number I was giving. The number

June 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 214 3 here seems to be overly precise, $23.9 million. It is in the order of $24 million, $25 million. The point is the commitment was made in the election. It was followed through on, and actually many Manitobans have already seen the benefit on their property tax bills which they have received this spring. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Chairman, I would ask the Min ister, I am reading from a Manitoba Government news release dated February 25, 2000, three days before the federal budget, and this is prepared by the Government of Manitoba.

The final statement is, and I will quote: Selin ger said Manitobans will receive the full benefit of any federal tax reductions announced in the February 28th federal budget. The Min ister also said he expects to announce further details in the 2000 Manitoba Budget Address. Does the Min ister believe that is accurate? Mr. Selinger: Yes, I do. Any changes that the federal government made in terms of their taxation to Canadians we have respected, and we have, in addition, passed on tax relief that we had promised. * (15:30) Mr.

Loewen: Well, I would remind the Minis ter that they have no choice but to respect what the federal government decides to do with their tax situation, so when he promises the people of Manitoba in a government news release regarding the federal budget and regarding tax, that they will receive the full benefit as a Manitoba n, I would expect and I believe most Manitobans would certainly believe that they would receive on a pro-rata basis the full benefit of any changes that were made at the federal level, and, correspondingly, any reduction in tax at the federal level would be reflected by a 47% Manitoba rate being reduced correspon dingly in Manitoba.

I would ask the Minis ter if, in fact, this happened. Mr. Selinger: I think the facts are clear in this situation. We passed on what changes the federal government made in terms of their rates. Obviously, we did not intend or pretend that we had control over that. In addition, we P<!SSed on $10 million in base rate changes, and then, of course, we passed on the tax reductions of January 1 which I have enuncia ted earlier, $40 million on the personal income tax side, $5 million to $6 million on the small-business side and then, of course, our property tax reduction which was announced in the Budget. Mr.

Loewen: Again, just for clarification, maybe he can just speak to this figure. There were estimates provided by the federal government that the effect of the tax relief they were providing in their budget to Manit obans at the existing system on February 28, when they announced their budget, would be approximately $30 million. Does the Minis ter concur with that figure? Mr.

Selinger: The total changes made by the federal government for the 2000 tax year, as I recall, the implications for Manitobans were, I believe, of all the changes they made-and I had a number and I would have to check this because I do not have it with me at the moment, but I believe the total benefits to Manitobans on the changes made by the federal government were in the order of around $60 million,

whereas the total relief offered by the Manitoba Government exceeded that, and that in the order of over $70 million. To put that in perspective, Manitoba which is a smaller jurisdiction with a smaller revenue base was offering more total tax relief than the federal government was for the 2000 taxation year, and I believe I put that in perspective when I had that discussed with me on the day the federal budget came down. Mr. Loewen: I guess I would just like to clarify some numbers that the Minis ter has been using, for my edification.

He has indi cated that in his budg et he has provided Manitobans with $75 million worth of tax relief this year, and I believe the figures he has used are $40 million as a result of reducing the provincial rate from 48.5 percent to 4 7 percent that was called for in the 1999-2000 budget. He has used the number $26 million. We will not split hairs between $23.9 million and $26 million, but roughly $26 million in terms of property tax relief and $10 million of

2I44 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 2000 federal tax relief. I mean, that $75-76 million, are those the numbers he is referring to when he uses the figure $75 million? Mr. Selinger: Yes, the number of $75 million includes the $40-million income tax reduction that was implemented January I. It also includes the $I 0 million as a result of changes in the federal budget, base rate changes for $50 million, and the approximate, and we will split the difference, $25 million in property tax credits for a figure of about $75 million.

The inf ormation I have here is that the reductions, federal taxes, will reduce in the year 2000 in the magnitude of $60 million. So the point I was trying to make was that the tax relief offered in the 2000 taxation year by the provincia l government exceeded by $I5 million the taxation relief offered Manit obans in that same taxation year off ered by the federal government. Mr. Loewen: I thank the Minis ter for that inf ormation. I would express to him that I guess that is where our perception of reality changes quite dramatically.

My understa nding from previous statements that the Minis ter has made while in government and during their election campaign, certainly I think he has admitted on the public record that he has attempted to keep these commitments. I will go through them one by one. Is it ri ght that he committed to Manitobans that his government would allow the reduction in the personal income tax rate in Manitoba to drop from 48.5 percent to 47 - percent in the I999-2000 budget? Would he agree that that would provide $40 million in tax reliefto the people of Manitoba? Mr. Selinger: Yes.

We followed through on the decision to reduce personal income taxes in the order of $40 million starting January I, and that has been done. Mr. Loewen: I think we can easily agree on this one, that the Minis ter and his government have promised the people of Manitoba a $75 in crease in the property tax credit. For the purposes of this discussion, I think we can agree that the cost to the provincial Treasury of that promise is $25 million.- Mr. Selinger: Yes. Mr.

Loewen: Then I guess the number that I am having trouble with is when I go to his, and I refer back once again to the Manitoba government news release which talks about income tax simplification beginning a two-year process, as well as the decision by the Government to delink the tax system one year early. It, as I have said before, says specifically in this government press release that the Finance Minis ter, Mr. Sel inger, said Manitobans will receive the full benefit of any federal tax reductions announced in the February 28 federal budget.

Had nothing happened. had there not been a provincial budget, would the Minis ter agree that that number would have been roughly $30 million? Mr. Selinger: The total relief off ered in the 2000 tax year includes measures introduced in previous budgets as well as the budget of February 28. So the total reduction in federal tax relief, the estimate that I have here in my briefing notes, is $60 million for the taxation year 2000, including changes that were made in the February budget. Now, that is less than the total relief that the Government of Manitoba is offering people in that taxation year of $75 million.

The additional $I 0 million is the base rate changes, which we passed through. So the $25 mill ion, $40 million and $I 0 million gives you the $75 million. Then the commitments made by the federal government that affect the taxation year of 2000 totalled $60 million. Mr.

Loewen: Am I to understand the Minis ter is he telling us that if he had not introduced this budget, if we had simply relied on the tax reductions that were provided in the federal budget of February 28 and nothing had happened after that, that as a result of that federal budget, Manitobans would have received $60 million in provincial income tax relief as a result of that budget? Mr. Selinger: No, I am not saying that. I am saying that the federal relief was valued at $60 million for that taxation year. The relief that we are offering sums to about $75 million. Mr.

Loewen: Could the Minis ter then tell me how much of that $60 million in relief provided

June 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 214 5 by the federal government in their budget could be attributed to provincial income taxes? Mr. Selinger: None of the federal relief can be attributed to provincial income taxes. It is exclusively reductions in federal taxation to Manitobans. Mr. Loe wen: Well, what I am attempting to clarify with the Minis ter is the situation prior to his budget.

Certainly at that point, when Manitobans paid as a base provincial tax 47 percent of their basic federal tax, certainly the Minis ter must realize that if the federal government reduced its basic federal tax, which it did in its budget of February 28, Manitobans would receive 47 percent corresponding relief in their provincial income tax had he done nothing. Is that accurate? Mr. Selinger: No, it is not, because the del inking decision was taken in principle prior to Christmastime. The 2000 taxation year was a transition year that was supposed to be revenue neutral.

Within that revenue-n eutral tran sition year, all the commitments made on taxation relief to the tune of $75 million, not counting small business taxation relief, were followed up on and delivered to Manitobans. Mr. Loewen: Well, is the Minis ter telling us that when he delinked, when he made the decision and his government made the decision to delink the tax system and they had-1 appreciate the fact that they had a notice period to the federal government that they were going to take that step at the same time, was this provincial government required to notify the federal government what the new rates would be?

Mr. Selinger: There was a requirement to notif y them of the rates. It was not exactly on the date when the delinking decision was made. It was a decision in principle, but the spirit of it was to do it in a revenue- neutral way, and that was followed up on, including the reductions agreed to in the '99-2000 budget. So the point I am trying to make-and it is an important one because the federal government, which has much more fiscal capacity and far greater surpluses than we do, offers Manit obans $60 million worth of tax relief this year. Our total tax relief to individuals sums to $75 million.

In a sense, we made a greater effort to reduce taxes th �n even the federal government did in their budget. *( 1 5: 40) Mr. Loewen: Well, Mr. Chairman, I am finding this very, very discomforting. The Minis ter took an oath on October 5 to serve the people of Manitoba and his new capacity. I certainly have every reason to believe that the Minis ter is doing his best to uphold that oath. He has made a number of statements and commitmen ts to Manitobans both prior to the taking of that oath, and subsequently he has backed those statements up in press releases and in statements in the House.

I have to remind the Minis ter that as Min ister of Fin ance he has a very, very special relationship with the people of Manitoba. It is incu mbent upon him to, at all times, fully explain to the people of Manitoba exactly what steps he has taken parti cularly as it relates to his budget and particularly because the Min ister has such overwhelming powers, particularly the power to tax.

I think it is absolutely essential that not only in the House but in this committee and at all times the people of Manitoba understand fully what is happening to them with regard to taxation and certainly with regard to expend iture as well, primarily these overwhelming powers of taxing individuals. So again I would just want to clarify these statements.

I think it is very important that the Minis ter be perfectly clear on the record exactly what this budget means to people of Manitoba Therefore, I would ask him once again whether, as a result of his budget on May 1 0-and it was on May 10 that the people of this Province were notified that the tax rates were changing. I would ask the Minis ter whether he can say confidently that he passed on the full benefit of the changes that were announced in the federal budget on February 28 as they stood on May 9.

Therefore any reduction by the federal government of their tax structure would automatically result in a corresponding approximately 4 7% reduction in Manitobans' income tax. Can the Minis ter state clearly and succinctly for this committee that he took the action which he described in his news release, in his government's news release of February 25 to pass on the full benefit of those reductions in the federal budget to Manitobans?

214 6 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 2000 Mr. Selinger: First of all, I think I need to correct the Member. Of course, when people take an oath, they take it seriously. I know we all do. The Minis ter of Fin ance alone does not have overwhelming powers. It is a parliamen tary democracy system where Cabinet makes final decisions, and, of course, legislation is passed in the Legislature by the majority will of the House. So it is not a one-person dictatorship by any means, and I would never want it to be that way.

We are supposed to be a servant of the people of Manitoba in our minis terial responsibilit ies, and it is a collegial model, the Cabinet model, where decisions are made collectively by the 15 men and women, in this case, at the table who make those decisions. Then, of course, those decisions have to be sanctioned by the House, the Legislature. I think we need to bear that in mind, the way the decision-making process works and not exaggerate the powers of any one indivi dual minis ter in a way that might reflect more of a Republ ican model. I do not think that is the case in the British parliament ary system.

Secondly, all federal tax reductions to their rates. Mani tobans will receive the full benefit of them. The decision to delink was made well in advance of the budget. I ask the Member to consider the following hypothetical situation. If the federal government would have in creased the taxes, I suggest to you that the Member from Fort Whyte would have been screaming that I should not be passing on those tax incr eases to Manitobans. He would have been very adamant about that. That is completely understandab le. The decision to delink was one made in principle by the previous government.

I think the Member for Kirkfield Park identified it was identified in the '98 taxation budget document. That decision was something that the new government had to come to grips with when they were elected and try to do that in a reasonable fashion with advice from the people who had worked under the previous government. That decision was followed up on with that advice, and the delinking decision was made as required by the federal government through notice prior to Christmastime and followed through on now.

The total tax relief offered by the federal government on their taxation is in the order of $60 million for the 2000 taxation year. Our relief, not counting small business taxation, is in the order of $75 million. We believe we have made a signi ficant effort when the federal government has far greater fiscal capacity. We have gone beyond what they have offered, and we have followed through on that. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Chairman, anybody would have to have had their head in the sand to even contempla te the hypothetical situation which the Minis ter brought forward.

Even if that did happen, he can be assured we would have been screaming for tax relief, given the situation that exists, not only in Manitoba but across the country . Ignoring that hypothetical situation. because it is so far off the wall that it does not really even warrant comment. I would remind the Minis ter that all I am trying to ask him is to clarify for the record exactly what commitments he has kept and not kept to the people of Manitoba in his budget. Certainly, he has made three commitments to the people of Manitoba.

Those three commitments-had he not introduced his budget on May 1 0, the two issues would have been taken care of if all he had done in his budget of May 1 0 would be to incr ease the property tax credit by $75 and prov ide tax relief of $25 million. The total tax relief that the people in the province could have expected would have been $95 million. Instead, he has off ered $75 million, so I would ask the Minis ter quite bluntly: Which of those three commitments did he decide not to keep? * (15: 50) Mr. Selinger: We kept all the commitments that we made in the election.

In addition, we passed on $10 million worth of base rate changes that we had no commitment to for the 2000 taxation year. In addition, we passed on $10 2 million over the taxation years of 200 1-2002 that we had not promised in the election. So we went well beyond what we promised to deliver, more tax relief to Manitobans, as we brought on line a new tax on taxable income system. I think that is very clear. Mr. Loewen: The Minis ter has confirmed that his intention -I would like to emphasize intention, and it goes back to his speaking notes

June 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 214 7 of this bud get-was to provide tax relief to implement this new personal income tax system to the benefit of all Manitobans. I think one area that is particularly concerning to me is, having four children-! certainly admit that through some hard work and a lot of good luck, I have been very fortunate to be able to, with a bunch of terrific people, build a very signi ficant business in this province that employed over a thousand people across Canada, a small business that was started in the province of Manitoba in 19 68.

One of the, certainly, feelings of pride that I have about my association with that orga niz ation is that we are able to provide, with a head office in Winnipeg, a lot of employment to a lot of bright, young people for Manitoba. I can assure the Minis ter that those people stood up to anybody across the country in terms of their work ethic, in terms of their int elligence, in terms of their ability to help us provide a service to our customers and to help us build a business, which I think everybody in Manitoba can have some pride in the fact that that business grew up here.

I am particularly disturbed that, when I look at the numbers, the actual numbers, I find that any individ ual, any single individ uaL and I will stick to single indivi duals, when I do the anal ysis, it clearly shows that, even at the $30,000 level, we have, as a result of this budget, people paying higher provincial income taxes than they would have had the Minis ter done nothing.

These numbers show clearly that any individu al earning over $42,000, even with the benefit of the $75 tax reduction that the Minis ter has provided-and I would remind him that a lot of these single people, because of their circumstances, may not quality for that $75 tax relief, but even that, if they are successful in earning over $42,000, they are paying more tax as a result of his budget than they would have paid had he done nothing, had he not brought this budget down.

I would ask the Minis ter: How can he draw the conclusion that the Budget he has introduced has provided income tax relief to the benefit of all Manitobans, knowing full well that people who are earning that type of income, $40,000 and above, are in fact paying more provincial tax as a result of his budget and, in fact, paying more tax, period, as a result of his budget? How does he reconcile those two facts? Mr. Selinger: First of all, I would like to thank the Member for commenting on the business experience he has had. I agree with him.

I think that business did make, and hopefully will continue to make, a big contribution to Manitoba, even though it is under different ownership right now. [interjection] That is another story. But the reality is that it did make a signif icant contribution, and we would like to see more businesses like that grow and spawn themselves in Manitoba, particularly in what they call the new economy. I recognize that that company in many respects was in the forefront in developing the new econom ic activity in Manitoba with the automated payroll and the work they did on computers.

So I do not have any problem sharing with the Member his pride in that accomplishment, along with other members of his family and many other members in that firm, some of whom I knew. Now, with respect to this, I mean the decision to pass on the income tax reduction on January 1, one-q uarter of that came out of last year's budget, three-q uarters of that come out of this year's budget. We followed through on that. That is worth $30 million right there in this fiscal year and $40 million in this taxation year. So our budget followed through on that.

I would hope that the Member would recognize that in his calculations. Right there that allows tax relief over last year. In addition, we passed on $10 million in the base rate changes announced in the federal budget. By the way, that tax policy was made in Ottawa without consultation with the provinces, when it went up, when it went down. I remind the Member, over many years it went up, and there was no certainty one way or another what they were going to do in that budget right up unti l the end.

I suspect the Minis ter of Fin ance himself was making decisions late in the day on what he was going to do in that budget. From the inf ormation we had, several things were moving with respect to that budget, moving parts on both the expenditure and the tax side. As well, we passed on the property tax credit that we had indi cated we would follow

214 8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 2000 through on, and we passed on the reduction in small business taxation rates that we indicated we would move on. So all of those things together add up to significant relief in our first budget. In addition to that, in the last quarter of this budget year we made commitments to a quarter of $68-million tax relief, which would be the first quarter of the next taxation year of 200l.

So there are significant improvements in this budget in terms of taxation relief off ered to Manitobans, which, as the Member suggested if we would have done nothing, would not have accrued to Manitobans. Mr. Loewen: Well, I do not want to belabour this point. Obviously we have a significant difference of opinion on this issue. I am not debating with the Minister, and I am not questioning whether he and his government passed along $40 mill ion of tax relief. If he wants to say it is $30 million this year as a result of reducing the rate to 4 7 percent, I am not debating that at all.

Manitobans appreciate the fact that, at the time, given the circumstances. his government continued with a commitment to reduce the rate. What I am disturbed about is that the Minister has made three commitments to Manitobans. He committed to them to reduce that rate to 47 percent, he committed to allow the full benefit of the federal tax relief to Manitobans and he committed to property tax relief. If he had simply stuck to those three commitments, Manitobans would have seen tax relief in the order of $95 mill ion, $96 million in this year. They do not see that tax relief now.

I can appreciate that things were changing on the fly, and there were a lot of decisions that had to be made regarding deiinking, and everybody knows, and certainly I am the first to admit, that mistakes get made in those types of pressure-packed situations.

I firmly believe that the error is not in making a mistake, the error is not in admitting to it and fixing it. · In fact, if the Mini ster had come out in his l}udget and said we are unable to pass along the full benefit of the tax relief to Manitobans from the federal government because we cannot afford the revenue loss or we need more money to spend on health or we need more money to spend on education, I would not have had as serious a problem with that as I have with this government continuing to try and tow the party line that they have met all three of their commitments. when it is obvious to anybody who does the numbers and who knows the numbers that they have not.

So I guess my question to the Minister would be: Would this be an opportune time for him to admit to Manitobans that. in fact, they were not able because of their need to spend money in certain areas to pass on the full benefit of the federal tax relief that was brought to Manitobans as a result of the federal budget on February 28? Will he admit to Manitobans that is in fact the case. and let everybody just get on with life knowing the full facts? Mr.

Selinger: I understand why the Member is frustrated because I am also frustrated by the misunderstanding that seems to be continuing to be shared on the other side of the table here. The decision to offer the $40-million tax relief was made to go forward on January 1. based on a base rate established by the previous government. There was no indication or no communication or no in any way-a tax policy was not made in a codetermined way with the Government of Manitoba. We said we would give a $40-million decrease in personal income taxes starting January 1. We did.

We said we would give a property tax credit relief. We did. We went beyond that in offering $10 mill ion in base rate changes, not promised, but followed through anyway, a $1 0-million bonus if you will. Then we went on and went beyond that, and in the last quarter of this budget, in the first quarter of the next taxation year, we offered additional relief, the first tranche, the first quarter of the $68 million. I will just quickly do the numbers on that.

That is an additional $17 mill ion of relief in the first quarter of the year 2001, and the last quarter of our budget, something not promised or required in terms of the mandate that we were elected on. So, we off ered pretty significant relief, well beyond what we had promised during the

June 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 214 9 election, and we think that we made our best efforts to do that, given the circumstances that we came into government with. Those circumstances included significant over expenditures that went beyond what had been budgeted for in the '99-2000 year. Mr. Loewen: Well, in closing my questioning, I would just like to remind the Mini ster that in fact he did not have to do anything to provide the tax relief, the $40 mill ion that he talked about, as a result of the rate reduction because that was already in place.

If he had done anything, it would have been to reverse that, so that is not an issue. That was passed in the previous budget, passed unanimously in the House by both parties. If he had not done anything, there would have been a further $30 million in tax relief provided by the federal government as a result of their budget in provincial income tax. In fact, the only step that he needed to take to fulfill the one commitment that he made to the people of Manitoba during the election campaign would be to increase the property tax credit by $75.

If he simply had done that one thing, it is obvious, from the numbers, that Manitobans would have been better off today than they are as the result of his budget. * (16 :00) In closing, just a quick question to the Minister. He must have seen some analysis prior to his budget announcement that indicated to him that Manitobans would be paying more taxes in some cases, in a great many cases. after his budget than they were before. I cannot imagine that his Department of Finance did not make him aware of that information. I would ask him if he took an opportunity to get a legal opinion on

section I 0.2 of

Chapter B5, The Balanced Budget, Debt Repayment and Taxpayer Protection Act. Does he have a legal opinion advising him whether, because of his change in taxation laws, he has in fact violated this legislation? Mr. Selinger: Just a couple of points. We did have to take action to follow through on the tax reductions. We had to provide for it within our budget, which we did. So that was significant, and it was followed through on. In terms of the analysis, all the analysis I received showed that we were reducing taxes year over year and that we were reducing taxes further as we go forward.

I just remind the Member again, all the other provincial budgets were rolling out during that period, one of them within a week of ours. As we were going through the process, I asked them to focus specifically on making sure families got tax relief. We designed the system with the family tax reduction to ensure that. We gave more credit for children, we gave more credit for family units or individuals looking after people with disabilities and we provide more credits for charitable donations.

So we think we made some significant progress in addressing the responsibilities that families have to their offspring and to their communities with the design that we brought in. On the balanced budget legislation, my department officials inform me that we were in compliance with it in all the changes that we made. Mr. Stefanson: I want to ask the Minister-going back, he has made a couple of comments about the significant overexpenditures in some areas of government.

Of course, reviewing his budget, brought down on May I 0, we see that any additional expenditures incurred in '99-2000 appear to have been built into his expenditures going forward. In fact, in some areas like health care I believe there was an additional $13 0 mill ion or $135 million. Going back to the time when they created the deficit scare in Manitoba, which I do not think served our economy or served Manitobans well at all, the Minister of Finance, along with the leader of his party, suggested they were going to take some steps to deal with expenditure controls, and so on.

Back on November 26, his leader suggested that one of the things they were going to do to control expenditures was, and I quote-I know the Minister of Finance sometimes is sceptical about what the media might have in print, but I quote a quote attributed to his leader that says: We have sent out instructions to all departments. All nonessential positions are frozen, is what was said.

2I5 0 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 2000 Subsequent to that, information came to light that, from December I to March I, some 354 people were hired. I would ask the Minister two things: Were all of those 354 people determined to be essential, in his views and in the view of his government, and what is that number as of today, going from December I up until June 6? Mr. Selinger: The Member for Kirkfield Park mentions that much of the overbudgeted health care expenditure has been absorbed in our budget. I think that is accurate. I think we did have to absorb that.

We did not feel that many of those programs could be rescinded or stopped in midstream once they came onboard. There were high expectations from Manitobans that those programs be followed through with, and so we did. The deficit scare, I think the implication of the Member is that somehow we created that to try and scare Manitobans. I do not think that was the case at all. At the time that the preliminary infor

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-1-40
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 1st hansardpdf 40.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	87cdf3802915794fa73433357975eadbbccfd46e

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