Volume XLI Thursday Province of Newfoundland FORTY- FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush {Preliminary Transcript] ..... i~ Nu"lber 18 5 April 1990

The House met at 2:00 p.m . MR. SPEAKER (Lush): Or·der, plt::~ase! MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Member fo1~ Stephenvi1le . MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the House of Assembly today '.if we could send a message of condolence s t.o the fam'.ily of Mr. Earlt:'! White fl~om S tEq:> hE~ n vi 11 r::~ . M r· . Ear· J. e W h '.it. E· IAJa s the Municipal Town Clerk in the Town of StE~phE!nville for· rnany years and recently passed away . He wc-.ls part of thE~ Municipal Administrative Association of the Province. I would like to ask the hon.

House to send a letter of condolences to his Family. MR. SPEAKER: rhe Chair will acquiesce to the rt::~ques t fro111 thE~ hon. Member. Statements by Ministers PREMIER WELLS : Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAI<ER: rhe han. the Pre111ier . PI~EMI~I~ WFL.L~3: Mr·. Speake I~. I lAJant to d.dvisE~ ti'IE! House that upon cart::!Ful J"evietAI oF th~~ Repol"t of thr:' Aucl :i-Lol~ Cenel"al subrn:i.tl.ed l:.o rny collt::'ague, the President of Treasu ry Board, in Januar·y of this year.

Governn11~nt has cle ·terrnined that it is appropriate and necessary a Public Enquiry pursuant 1_1 Apl"i .l S, l<J90 to oJ~dE~r· l:.o thu Vol XU tel"l'riS of T'he PubJ.ic Lnquiri~:~s Act inl:o GoVE!r·nment 1 s involvement. lAiil:h Newfoundland Enviroponics Limited and its associated companies. Be'tlAIE'en May O'f 198'7 whf!n the original heads of agreernE•nt tJJE!re approved by Government and June of 1989 when the assets of Newfoundland Enviroponics Limited were sold, l.he Province of NewfoundJ.ancl expended sums in excess of $20 million in furth~~rance of thE! pi"Oposa1 of Mr·.

Philip Sprung. rhe Auditor General has reviewed the transactions and provided a r·epol~t to GovernlliE!nt lAih:ich E•xpr·esSE!S deep concern about agreements enl.ered i.nt.o, advances of rnon:i.E!S, conduct of business and poss·ible breaches of provincial statutes. In light of these very serious conc~H'ns and the Au<Li. Lor Gener·i:l.'l' s inability to obtain portions of critical recor·ds, and hE!I"e I disown thE· lAJOI"d 'rny 1 • Ml". Speaker·, in the pr·i .nted u~xt. i.t . :is not 1 rn y 1 Go v e r n rn e n l .

Co v E~ I" n me n L. h <:t s concluded that only a properly cons t-.i tu ted Pub] :i c f.::nqutr·y lAioi 1 I anst.~.Jer l..l'lf~ III<HlY ques l: . .ions concerning Governmenl's involven1ent lAiil:h these cornpan..-i.es. I have:! r·equest.ed the M:in-.i~:;t.E-1" of Just.icr:~ and A l:tol"ney Cc:HlE!r'al ol the Province to confer w-.ilh the Chief Justice of the fria1 Divis:i.on of t.he Supr'E:'IIIE! COUI"L or­ Newfoundland to nominate a Tr:i.a1 Division Judge to undertake l.he Enquiry. When arrangernunLs have been final:i.zr:!d, I lAioill l·:c\blE' c\ copy of Lhu COlrll'll·issi .on in this House.

HotAJevel". l cdn notAl advisE! you that:. l:he T•:?.l"lns oF I~E!fE!I"(!nCl~ lAJ·.il1 dir·ect l:he 'colllllliss:ionel" Lo hold an enquiry in to Lhe f ollotAI i nq matter·s: ·ro enquir'e -.i.nto the• involvement of the Government of NetAJfou nd land and La br·ad o I" and any No. 18 (Aftenwon) Rl

of its agencies or corporations t.~.rith SpJ"ung Sales Lirrrit~::~d, Spn1nq Environmental Space Enclosures Limited, or Newfoundland Envirponics Limited and in particular to determine (

a) whether the expenditure of and accounting For, Government financial and other assistance was in all respects proper, and properly managed and accounted for; (

b) whether any Acts and Regulations· of tht:~ Province of Newfoundland were not complied with; (

c) whether or not there were breaches of any of the aJ"J"angeiTIE!nts or agJ"eernents betlAIE!en l:he GoveJ"nmt~nt and any of the comparltr:~s; (

d) uJIH:d:.her· t1·1e1"e u1as any ol:her asp•:>ct oF governmE!nl:.al involvernt:~nt in the rnattE•l" that.: should be brought to thr,~ attention of the Lieutenant-Govt:~rnol" in Council. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: I-IE!al", hear! · Ml~. SPFAI<EI~: The hon. thE! L.r:•aclel" or· l.. h r:• Opposit:ion. Ml~. RIDEOUT: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I have said before on behalf of my colleagues :in the ofFicial Opposition that should the Auditor Gr:~neral' s RepOI"t to U1e Gover·nment warrant any further investigation by 1.1..1ay oF an enquii"Y, chal"~~es l:o br::! laid, or 1.1..1hatever, then whatever would come out of the Auditor Gen<"!l"al' s RE:'por·t should be pursued according to the a p pI" o p r· i atE' 1 aJJ,J s o f this PI" o vi n c e by t:.he Cov•:!l"nment oF Ne1.1..1foundland and Labi"C\ciOl" on b•::!half oF the people of this Province.

I do not knOIAJ, obvious1y, lAJhat the AucLitoJ" Ceneral' s R,::.poJ"t. says, I do not 1...2 Apl"i1 5, 1990 Vol XLI havE:! a copy of i l":., so 1 cannot corn1T1ent ft"orn l:hal~ plo!l"spect."ive. I can only acCE!pt l:.he IAJOI"cl of Lhe Premier that there are discrepancies that ought to be further investigated so l:het"E:~fot"e, Mr.Speaker, consistent to our Pl"evious positions, IAIB concur· 1.1.d th the judicial enquiry established by the Government.

Let it get on uli.th its work and if any fLII"'Lhr:•l" action is required following the judicial report we will concur l~o.Jith that I:H:dng gotten on IAri.t.h as well. We have no hesitation in supporting that and saying categorically that if there was any uJronqdoing 1'•"!t Lhe lAJI"Onqcloi.ll<:J be found out, and if l..h•:•I"E:• IAJa~; noL let Lhat be found out as well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Heal", hE!ar! Statements by Ministers Ml~. ~iPEAKER: .T h1i:! hon. th(! Covel"nJnHn l.. 1-iou<:.c• Leaclel". Ml~. BAI<ER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

When this Government Look office 1ast: May, it. 1.1..1as deci.dE•cl t.hat. a l:.hoi"OU~Jh I"E!assr:~ssrnent shou1d br::• rnadE! of the exisl":.in~~ pl"act:·ice of providing both an official residence and offici81 ent:.r:'I"'L<;~.ininq fac:i.1ilies Fol" Lhe Premier of the Province wiLh a view to reducing costs and developing a more efficient:. program to provide these services. This reassessment has now been co1npJ.etecl, and I IAJj,sh l:o info1"1n the House of the decisions reached by Cabinet. Ev E!l" s inc•:! ConFed~::'t"al":.ion, an No. lB (Aft.r'!l"noon) ru

official residence has been pr·ovided for· the Pn!J'nier·, and fot" l:.he past~ 25 yeat"s ot" so the facilities of a private dining room for official VIP entertainment have been provided. This dining room is located on the first floor of Confederation Building. It has not been used for this purpose since this Government took office last May. Instead, the room has been made available to the Official Opposition for temporary us~~ cls a caLtcus room. During the ter·m of office oF Premier Frank Moore-s, the proper·ty known as Mount Scio House was acquirr:'d and renovab::~d for use as the oFFicial Premier's residence.

PrE!miE•r PE!Ckford also lived in Mount Scio HousE~ Fat" a numbE!r of years until changes in his personal circumstances made it more appropriate to reside in a town house. The r·ental For t.his town housE! unit IAJas paid by Government, and amounl:le>d to $19,959.11 in thE! last year of Mt". Peckford's occupancy. Mount: Scio House and Lh•~ Prernier·'s totJJn house IAJet"e equipped lAJ·.i.t .h furnitut"e, applianc•:1s and o l:.her household items at Government expense. In addition, the upkeep of Mount Scio House included gardening and grounds keeping, general repairs and maintenance, snow-clearing and security.

Since Mr. Peckfot"cl moved out:. of Mount Sc:i .o !·louse it: has been usE·cl as qovr..:~rnrrH:~nt offices, occup:i.E:'d by ernployeE!S of Lhr::! Depat"l.ment of Justice.

To t"es l:.ot"O l:h•:~ buoi.1cli.nq and its surTouncl:i .nqs Loa pr'ival:r::! residence would cost well over $100,000, anp our sl..udy sholAJed that: it tJJou1d cost an addi t.iona1 $50,000 or more per year to oporate and maintain . 1 ... 3 Apt"i1 ~), 1990 Vo1 XL.T In add.it:ion to Scio House, l::he dining t"oorn $74-,'71:1. in t.h~:! operation. l::he cost:. oF Mount: Premier's private cost government: last yeat" of :its These were the factors which had to be considered by a special Cabinet Cornrnitt.:.~e consistinrJ of the President of Treasury Board, the Minister of Works, Services and ·rransportation, and the Minister of Development. fhe r'E!por·t of this Contnt:i.t.t.E!P hc:,\s br::!•::!n cons:idr:~t"•:~d by Cc-lbinet, and Lh•:! following recommendations have br..:'en approved: 1.

Mount Scio Hous~O! !Ali 1.1 no L: bE! us e d as P l" E! trt:i. e r' ' s t'· E! ~; :i cl en c •=! because oF the prohibitive cost of refurbishing and ma:inl:.enance. This propE!rl:y IAJ·i]1 b•::! t.ut"necl ovet" to thE• Pippy Pat"k Connnission fot" appropriate public use, probably as Park Headquarters. 2. The PrE:'Illir='!t"' s pr ·ivatE:' din:i n~:1 room in Confederal:.ion Bui]cli.ng lJJ·i11 be cloSE!cl per'll'lcHlE'l1 U y, i'lllcl Lhe ar·ea lAJoi 11. be u Lj] i.z1>.cl I· or a·l:~her' ~~ovet "nttlent. ~;p~tCC' t"~:·quit"etnunt·:s. Fot" Lhe past-. 11 tnont:hs, l:.hE!

Premier has conducted PntE!rt:.a:inmenl:: and rneE!l:.ing~~ aL: his horne, au~~rnenLC::!d by l..hE! use of h o t e 1 Fa c i 1 i t. i E! s For ] <·u·· g e q roup s and special functions, and this systurn has pr·ov•?.n lo be bot.h adequate For government business and cost effective.

In place of both an offi .ct<:1l residence such as Mounl Scio House and the official enterl:.aininq facili ties or the private cltn:inq r·ootn, l:hE· Pr emier lAJoi 1 L bE! pa:icl an annui::\] allotJJance and lAJi _l.l cont.:i.nue l:o use his hotll(~ in place of Lh•?. cl i n i n q r· o o trl f-o r· o r· f i ci . a 1 on Ler l:.aintnen t .. No. lB (A f l:.f!t "noon) I~ 3

This allowance has been established as $20,000 per year, and will result in a savings to Govel"nment of the cost of refurbishing Mount Scio House, maintaining the property at more than $50,000 a year. and operating the private dining room at approximately $'75,000 a year. The Premier's allowance is, in fact, consistent with the housing cost benefit provided the former Premier Peckford in the rental and operation of the town house. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I t.hcHlk thE!

M:i.nistel" fol" pr'oviding me with a copy of his statement in advance. I must say at the outset thel"t::~ is not: much nc::>tJJsy in th:is, the fac l.. l.:hey al"e announcinq thr:! closing of the dining room, I th:i.nk l..hat. actuc:1"11y occul"l"ecl a yce'ar ago Ol" 1ast May sonwl:.irne, so that is not Vei"Y nE!lAJSy, that aspect: of it. I rnight say at the outset. tl'lC:!I"e ai"E! thosE:~ in Uw Pl"ovincE•. I guess. who do not disagree with the opt:i.on of thr:! PI"E!mit::~l" of the Province having an official res:idE!nce.

T~H~re ai"E' lots of people who believe that maybe that shouJ.d bE! aJ.locab,!cl to a Premier. I do not think thc:~I"E~ is any big argument or disagreement about l:ha t.. l"he problem has beE~n that particular issue has always been focused on by the press or by Oppositions in the past or whatever. And I think that is what distorted the whole issue. l..lt. Api"Ll. ~). 1990 Vol XU Hav:ing said thal:, l:he ·.issucc• oF Lhc:! Pr'E!ITI:i.el" concluct:inq E•nt.e1"tainn1ent. and 1neet.ings "in hts horne auqrnr:'nt.ed by the use of hotel facil:i.ties for larger groups and so on has proved to be adequatE!.

My on1y quest:i.on on l:hat particular' point tJJould I:H'!: does the t::~XpE!nses for those k:incls of things come out of the $20.000. If so. it IAJou1cl appE:!al" to me that $20,000 is not very much. So some of that must be paid for elsewhere as well. If you IAJere to book a faci1i ty c:d:. c:1 hotel for a large function obviously that cou1cl not come out~ of your $20,000. But rnaybe sornE!tirnE'! you w:i11 get a chance t.o clar·iFy it. SE:'<:ondly, Lhe Mount ~3cio Hous(' as I understand the statement will continue to be rnainta:i.necl by somebody.

Presumably Pippy Park or whtchr-.:~VE!I" Ol"ganizal:.ton takes it oVE!I", so LhE!l"E! IAJi1J sU.ll be matnl:enance costs of lAJhab'!V~H' it is, estimated at $':)0,000 a yeal". ~)ornc?.bocly lAJi11 haV('! to pay Lha L" and that s o n1 e b o cl y . no rna t t. e I" IAJ h o u c: c::• ~:: tht::' fac:il i l:.y. IAJ·i Ll be! the taxpayel". ~;o l do nol.. knotAI ".if .:i.L is much of a savings to lhe Govel"niTient, a1thouqh the Pl"es:i.clenl.. of ri"E:~aSUI"Y Boar'd l:i.kes t·:o indicate that tt~ lAJilJ. be bi.q savinqs.

It is very interesting to note that the final sentence :i.n the Minister's statement says the Premier's a11owance :is consistent tJJi Lh Lhe hous:i.n~~ cos L beneF"i.l provided to thE'! fol"mer' fll"ern:i.el" ".i.n the rental and operat:i.on of the tolAJI'l house. That is very interesting. ·1 hey are now saying Lhat it ts cons:i.sLent Ol" s:i.1T1:i.J.a1" t.o lAJhaL Lhe thdt l:: hen fol"lrlf!r Pl"ern"ieln had in respect, even thouqh, Lhe opposi t.oion. .I t.hoink qu :i l:.E! No. lB ( AfteJ"noon) ~~ /j

frequently used to berate the former Prc::~rniel" for having a tot.~Jn house and a numbol" of pictures in the::~ papc'::~r and all Uw n~ s t oF it. Some Members in particular are sitting on that sidE! of the HouSE! in the Front benches very close to the Premier, and were well known for that kind of thing. But, Mr.

Spr:~aker, suffice il:. to say, unltke othe1n oppositions, IAJe do not intend to be picky over this particular issue about the Prerni.:~r 1 s ne~~d to l':'ntc'::~rta-.i.n and to be properly reimbursed for entertaining on official Gove1nnrnent businE!SS, and they ar'e the Government, if thal: is t.he uJay they uJanl:. t.o do it, that is fine, uJe haVE! no big argument lAlil:.h it. The only thing I will say in closing, Mr.

Speai<l''r', is thdt:. it: may suit this par-t.-i.culaln Prerrd.el", it may be possible for this particular Premier to entertain in his own home and so on, maybE! the house is large enough for l:.hat, but., I would po :lnt out that o b v j, o u s 1 y s ornE! f u L u r· e p r e rn :i e I" m a y be in a different sel:. ot cir 'curns Lances, may hav<:! a ] ar-qe fa1nily at hoiTIE~ and t-:h·is ki.nd of accommodation might:. not be acceptable in those circumstance, so I u.JOulcl just point that out, becc:~use one of tl'lE!Se days lAIE! expect to have a premier, very s o o n , w h o lAii 11 r i t i n t o t h a l:. par-ticular caLegor 'y.

Somebody w i l.: h a 1 a r g e fa rn i. l y , lAri l: h l: h r e e o r four childr-en at: hornE!, and not:. as large d house (inaudible). MR. SPEAKER : lhe han. the Minister of Works, Services dnd TransportaLion. MR . GILBERT : fhank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, -hear! / I 1:· - .:> Apl"il !), 1.990 VoJ. XLI ...::· MR. GILBEIH : Th~nks Gentlemen. Mr.

Speaker, recently many vehicle owners in th~~ Pr-ovince uJil .l nottce they al"e receiving their 1990 renewal notices for periods of less than a year, usually six months. f'his re-staggering of licence renewdls from the hc::~avy vo1uml':~ spring and summer months to the less busy months of fa11 and winter, will equalize the number of renewals in each month of the y1:~ar. rh1C! re -staggering process places vehic1e ownt'lns into a new expiTy rnon th.

Prior to the E•xpiry of UlC::! new assigned registration period, these vehicle ou.mer 's u.ri.11 receive a n o t h e r r e n e tAl a .1 w h i c h lAl'i .l1 L h c• n b c:~ for one year. Motor vehlc]e buyinq pal:.t:erns shOlAJ LhE! ~;FH'inq rnonLhs ai"E• the hE!aviesl. pur-chasinq rnon t:.hs, lAJh-.i.le the aut:urnn rnon t.hs show a decreasing number of purchases. Re -stagger-.i.ng of the J.icence rE!I'lE!IAJaJ. tAJilJ dist:l"ibut.E~ renewa1 work throughout the year e qua 11 y . l his wi 11 a 11 E· vi a U:• ·thE· long line -ups experienced at:.

Mol.:or R e q :i. st. r' at :i on D tv :i s ton a L l. he en cl o F l: h e s t'! b u s y rn o n -1:. h s . [ tAl' l u 1 c1 like to r'enl:ind vohicle OlAJI'lC'I"S Ll'1dt . ·i l: is s:i.nq::>lE! l:o iHHdcl l"r:•nl•wa1 1-.i.nr:! -···Ups. Us:inq the l'llc:li1 elirninal:.es l:h1:' nc!ed to visoil.·. l:hE! Motor Reg-.i.stration of fice in person. Those lAJho do v:isi l:. I .. hE! of'fi.ce are E:!ncour'cl~Jed lo l"f"nE'lAJ edrly in the month before Lhe JasL rn:inute rush to r'E!I'lE'lAI aL the E-nd of C::'ach and every monl.:h.

Renewal appl:ical.:ions received by rnail by the 22 of the rnonth can generally be processed and l"e 'l..UI"nE:!d t-.o Lhe vc::·hic.le OlAJnel"~ ; by t-.·.he end of l:hP 1nonLh . Con~;·.iclel"at-.:Lon j~; nolAJ bE!f:•n qoiven l..o p 1:;! I" rn i L l:. i n g 1 i c c:! n c e r' e n PlAIa 1 f e e s t:. o be paid at chdrter-ed banks. lhi s will enable this service to be avail at a] 1 chal" l:r::•I"E•cl bank No. 18 ( A r· L ,:~I" noon ) I~ ~:;

brancl'ws. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hc:~ar, hear! MR. R. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Kilbride. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE:~ar! MR. R. AYLWARD: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Let rnE1 star·t at ·the end of this statement: first the chartered bank option is a good OnE:' and -.is going to be helpfu1 to pr:wp1fl :in this Province. But, Ml". Speaker·, I do not th-.ink the people in Eagle River have to many chartered banks. And I am sure the peop1E! in Tor·ngat Mounta:ins do not have very rnany charte1"ed banks, Mr.

Speaker, and the south coast of the Province do not have vc,'ry lfli'lny chartered banks so it is not going to he1p them very much. But if it is lfiOI"f:! conv~HLi.ent Fol" the pub1:l.c, Mr. ~3peakel", 111aybe il:. is \AJOI"Lh be:ing consicler·ed. But. dut":i.ng the Est.irnal:,:Js hear'inqs a coup1E! of clays a~JO, \AJhE1n the M:i.nistE•I" 1 s Estimates \AII:ll"e up for· scrutiny, I asked the Minister how many of his ex-.ist-.in<] staff u.JOuld nOIAJ be fil"l'.!d because of this, and he has no idea what effect this privatization of motor vehic1e JicE1nces Llli11 have on his s ta!'f, Mr.

Speaker·. ·rhE!r'e -.is one oth~~r th:i.n<:J. I did ask b~~fol"e why the $2 mi l,Li.on increase in vehic1e and driver's 1icence renewa1~ or From the general r·ev~:·nuE! :in the Buclgc:'t, t~.Jhy there wou1cl be a $2 m:i.l1ion increase this year, Mr. Speaker? And I d·.id not get an anstAJE'I" fi"Olll L..6 Apd.l 5, 1990 Vol XLI {I M. . t . I . E-l . l ·:1e J.n'.l.s·--E•t" J.n 'lJ.s ::.s·:.'.l.rna··.:E!S heat":ings because:' hE! did not: knotAJ, Mr. ~)peak~:1r. But I did C,lC::' L. a ca11 From some of his st.ar-·r yE~stel"day or today saying t:hat. th·is~ is natural grOIAJth. Mr.

Spc:~aker, this is a double taxation on the people of the Province which has been a n-n o u n c E~ d to d a y . SOME HON. MEMBERS: I~ ear, hear! MR. R. AYLWARD: The peop1e of this Pi"ov:incE:! t~.J-.-i11 pay doublE•, Ml".

Spec:lkC:~r, fol" the registration of t.i'wir VE!hiclC::!S r"Ol" SiX ITlO nth S in t 0 •t hiS y E' a I" b (' C a l.l S C::• of anoth1:;11" tax qr·ab by t-his Government which will result in altTIOSt:. $2 rni.11ion rnot"e tak(•n, stolen, r·obbed fl"orn -t.he pockets of the people of this Prov:l.nce and evet"yorw who OIAJns a C<H' tAdl1 havr::~ to pay c:~x-tra rnon:i.E!S Lh:is yeal" just to get them registered. Mr. Speaker, t~.Je lAJoi.11 sore• lAJhat happ~:1ns wt th the -· AN HON. MEMBER: Highway robbery. MR. SPEAKER: Oi"d~:!l"' plE!C\S(;•! The hon. gent1eman1s tirne :is up. Ml~. f~.

AYL.WAfW: It is too bad, Mr. ~;p,:Jakel". We lAJi]J. deal tAJit.h iL at a latel" t.i1ne. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Highway robbery! Oral Questions MR. IUDEOU r: Ml". :.-;peak Pr. Mr~. SPEAKEr~: ,. h ~\ hon. L h c,~ Leaclet" 0 f' Lhe No. 18 (A-FtE!I"noon) R6

'¥.·. Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I have a question fo1n the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Would the Minister tell the House whether or not he has received instructions from the Premier ordE!ring hirn to investigate circumstances leading to the hiring of all staff in the Minister•s Department to determine whether or not any of that staff are personal friends of other pubJ.ic E:1mployees, fonnE-)r poLi.tical appointees, and/or friends or relatives of the previous Adrninistration? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, no. MR.

SPEAKER: lhe han. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. IUDEOUf: Speab:•r' . That was a very categoric answer I arn sure:' Hansard u..d.JJ. recol"d. Ml". Speaker, I have the sarne qu~~s l:ion for the:! MinistE•I" of Foi"E!Str·y and Agriculture.

Would the Minister tell the HousE• IAJ~Wl:.hel" 01n not he has l"ect::dVE!d any instr·uctions fi"Om the Premier ordering him to investigate circumstances leading to the hirin<] of al1 staff in h:i.s DE!pal"trnE!n L l:o dE:' l:.er·1nine, again, whether any of that staff may have personal friends in other areas of the PubJ.i.c ~iervice, may have bec::-n political appointees, or were friends or relatives of the former AdiTI:inis trat:ion? MR. ~iPEAKER: rhE! han. l:.ht1 Minis l:.c:H' of FOI"estry L.7 Apd.1 5, 1990 Vol XU. and Agl"icult:UI"e . MR. FLIGHT: l"he answer is a categorical no, Mr·. ~->peaker. MR.

RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. thE! I...E!aclel" of L h~:· OpposH:ion. MR. RIDEOUT : I arn SUI"e, Min. SpE:'akel", that. Hansard, again, will record that that was a very categoric answer. I IJJould 1:i.kE! to po~;e t:hE:! ~;a1ne question to the Minister of FinanCE!. I do not t.hink h(• nE-eds ITIE! to repea-t: il:. If he does, I will CC:11"tainly r·epeat "it. ThE! Minister has heard the question.

Can the Minister tell the House whether or not he has received sirni1ar insti"Uct:.:ions fr·o1n th,::· Pre1nier· l"egalnding investi~Jat:.-.-i.nq sta f f' in the M:i.nis t el"' s Depa1"tn1en t. to del:.el"rnine lAih~:!l:hul" Lh•:'y c.:~ rn e t. he I" e by h Et v i n q f I" i ''~ n cl s :i n l.. h c- Pub l :ic ~3.:•1"Vic~~. lAJheth':~l" l.hey ,:,.·tine because they we-re pol i t i cal friends ol the previous Administra t ion, or, in fact, political appointees? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Finance . D I~. KI TCH EN: Min. Speake I", .r Find Lhe ques Lion a ver·y s l:l"iHl~JE:! onE•.

It. is SOII'It!IAJhat. simi.Jal" l:o sorne o·l· Lhe oLI'll~l" questions they have been askinq 1al:.e1y, and I arn tAJondel"'i nq i.F Lh1;:!Y dl"e clernent:.ed. Mr~. ~iPEAI<ER : Or·dE!r, plE!C\Se! ·rhe hon. t.he Leader· of- t.he Opposit i on. No, 1. B (AfLet"noon) 10

MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mt". Speake!". The Minister of Finance, t.J"ue to for·m, did not anstJ..Jer thE• question, but I think Hansard t~.rill record the answers that were received from Ministers, l:lJ..JO noes and a maybe. I have a question for the Premier. I refE!r the Premier t:o a memorandum to all Cabinet Ministers dated Ju1y 26, 1989. I wi 11 read thE! first parag r·aph for the Premier. It is this: 1 Since taking offiCE! on May 5, this Administr·at.ion has been practicing a strict po1icy of fairness and balance, 1 -those sound 1ike tAJOJ"ds the Premier would write, Mr.

Speaker -1in hiring procedures and contractual relationships. WE! have implemented the policies which tJ..Je advocated while we tAJerE! in Opposition, and we have done much to rid this Province of the b1atant patronage system which plagued our past1 -and we commend the PrE.~mier for that. 1 I tJ..Jant to commend all Ministers for their E!ffor·ts 'in thts J"t~spE!ct. 1 Mt". Speaker, lr::!'l:. me c:tsk L.he Premit~J", in v:i.C::!lAJ of t.he fact.. that the Public SeJ"ViC~'! Corr11nission is mandated to do all hir:i.ng for Govet"nmE•nt, t.o~J'ith Lhe exception of Deputy Min:istE~J"S, Ass:i.stant.

Deputy M-inisters, Political support staff, I guess, and so on, can the Premier tell the House what new hiring procedures different from those tAJhich lAH:'r'E! :in p1ace tlwough the Public Service Commission, which he has refer-r'E!d to :in l:.lris rrJE!ITJO, lJ..Jhat nE!lAI pr•ocedUt"eS haVE! been :implemented since t.he GoVE:'J"nlTIE!nt carne to pot.o~Jer· in tE!t"rns of hiring through the Public Service Cornrn:i.ssion? MR. SPFAKER: l'he han. the Premier. L8 Apt":i.J 5, 1990 Uo] XLI PI~EMIER WELLS: Mr. ~)pE!ai<E!I'', 1 am VE!I"Y happy l:.o enlighten t.he Leader of the Opposition on the matter.

I do not have the Full memorandum in front of rn€:!, but rny r'E!Collr,•ct:ion of it is simply this: When lAJE! took office, Mt". Sp€~aket", we followed a very str·tct policy of rni:tking appointments on a fcd.t" and ba1anced and PJ"opc:~t" basis. NotJ..J, in recent days and lAH:!E!ks thC::!y have contended ·that. some L.ii:H:'J"als have been appointed. Does that not provide some ba1ance? Do they think everybody in th:i.s Province are Tory1s? Obv:l.ous1y n~>l:. ~:;u it is inE:!vi table that son1e people appointed by the Government will have a backgr·ouncl as Liber·als. But Mr.

Speaker, t.o~JE! put t.h.is systE!m into effect to el'.'i.rn:inat:.e t:.h:is unfair system tha 1'.-. t.o~Jas thei"E! before. And :i.t. is not only appo:int.rnent. by the Public SE'J"v·ice Cornntission. What. the fot"rJ'lE:•r· AclnJi.n·is'Lt"at·oi.on us,::•cl to do, lJ..JE! havE• Found, lAJas qet:. around the Publ:i.c Seru:ice Comrn:issJ.on by appo:int:inq people on a tr::!rnpor·at"V basis.

Then, a'f Lei" they ~JOt t:.heir f'l"iencls ·in l:he1"e on a t.C:'!l'nporar·y basis, thE!Y lAJou] cl cal 1. for appointment to f:i.Jl the pos:it:.ion on a pel"tnanenL bas:i.s ancl the person who was there tE!lTtpor·ar':i.Jy, of course, had the i n s i d E! t r a c I< . We l: h o u q h t l. h ·i ~; tAl a s vet".Y unfa:i.J" and lAJE• tJ..Jet"e conc,:•J"ned aboul: t:.his. f'he the:• rH~X t: paragr·aph, L.eadr:~r of Lhe uJha t:. if tJ..Je 1 lAJhich l:he hon. OpposiLion cl:id cl is covet" e d 1~1a s cou1d have t:he not J"ead, happE·ninq noiSE! sl:.op, anstAJel". p eo p 1 e · t.o~Jo u J. cl he a I" l.:h.:- MR. R.

AYl..WAIW: We know the answer already. political patronage. No. I. 8 (AfLet"noon) It. i.s FUl

MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! MR. SPEAKER: Ordel", pleast::'! PREMIER WELLS: What IJ.Je found !JJas happening, Ml". Speaker, in our effor·t to 9E!t fairness and balance back into the system and eliminate the po1it.ica1 prejudice that had been thCo!rE!, the civil servants started to put the civil servants' Pl"ej udiCE! in and appoint their friends and neighbor's and connections, so t.h"is letter was written.

ThE:! nE~xt pc:,l!"ag!"aph says thi.s, and let me quote from the letter: 'However, there are disturbing indications that our commitment to fairness and balance and our policy of non-interference in hiring practices rnay havE~ been abused within the Public Service and, indeed, may have inadvertently supported a patronage network at a different level.

A steady stream of reports have come to this oFfice con1p.lainj.nq of public sel"vanl:.s hir·i.nc.:1 pe!"sonal friends, fai"I"IIE:~I" political appointees and friends and relatives of previous Administrations, IJJhtle equally qualified people of known a f f i 1 i at i o n ~Ad t h t. hi s Go v e r n Ill•=' n t have b~en ignored. If such a s:ituat.ion exists MR. SIMMS: (Inaudible) with that that line?

PREMIER WELLS: I w-.1.11 rE!ad it agcd .n. 'A stNldy stream of reports have come to this officE~ cornplainJnq of public servants hiring personal friends, former political appointees, and friends or relatives of the pl"E!Vious Adn1:i.n:i.s t.l"at.ion. IJ.Jhoi.le Pqua1ly qualified people of knotAJn L.9 Apl"i1 ~>. :1.990 Vol XLI affiliation w:ith this Government haVE! bE!en ·.i~Jr10l"C;!d.' No!AJ, that !Alas tl'l'=' sb~ady str·earn of complaints. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER WELLS: 'If such a l"eality, it: unacu:q::>tab1E! situation is totaJ.ly and rnust exists :in unfa:il" and be dealt ,,..Ji.th quickly i.'lnd must severely. No publ:i.c ser·vant to abuse -- MR. SPEAKE I~: Or'dE!r. pl•'~dSE!! be permitted I havE• not done this. bu l:. I ought.: to haVE!. I rem:i.ncl hon. ME!lrii:H:!I"S of our Oral Ques t.ions, page I 1, Standinc.:1 Or'dE'!l" 31 sec:U .on (cl) lAJh:ich says, ''0l"a1 questions l'llust not. be pr·efc:lced by l:.hE! r'E!dcl:in~J of- letters, telegrams, newspaper extracts or prearnbJ.es of any kind.'' l-Ion. qenl:.J.ernan can SC!I:'! Lh•=~ f..

I --1 . . l" e as on ··or· t 'l at . I r.t s l s n u L a l"eaclinq clinic, it . .i~; a QuE:•st"ion Per·:i.ocl. AJ.l:.houqh t~.Jr::• hdve <:·\] lotAJe>cl t.ha t. hon. qen l:.lE!lW'•n s hou1cl I"C> l't::'r·· to the document ITlOl~e l"a t.hel" than be quotoi.ng from it. rhe Leader of the Oppos:i.t.:i.on did l:hc:il:., and, of cour·se, l:he PlAt::'lrri.EH' :is 1ikE~! ... risE• r·esponcl:inq. I bE!1-.ieve thr::• f>J"elll:i.r::~t'"· has answered the question. The hon. the PI"E:!rn:i. r:~l" . PREMIEr~ WELLS: W-ith t"eSpE!Ct..

Mr. ~3pE~akHt~. l:.hE!re ar·e LIAIO ITlOl"E:• sentr::~ncE:!S LhaL rnake the anSIAJGI" co1np1eL1:!, and 'L.hen I IAJ.i.]] S :i. t. cl OIJ.Irl . MR . SPEAKER: I tAt:i.1.1 allotAJ l:.he l'r'etniet" l:.o l"f~acl the two sentences. No. 1 a (AfLE•t"noon) R9

The hon. the Ptnerni~~~n. PREMIER WELLS: 1No public servant must be petnmi U:E!d to abuse OUI" princip1es either for· hi s or h E!ln OtAJn g a i n , or· for the benE!fit of any political entity. Before taking remedial action, however, tAlE! must t:~nsutnE! that reports are thoroughly substantiated and are more than rumors or pE!rCE!ived injustiCE!S. 1 And that is what prompted the examination, fundamental fairness and balance. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hea1n! MR. SIMM~: Fundamental paranoia, it is, and pressure Liberal buddies. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: that is From tAJhat your ThE! hon. the Leader of Lht:' Oppostt.ion. MR. RIDEOUT: rhank you, Mr. Speaker. Pat"anoia, Mr. Spt:'akcO!r, brow~ht on by suppotntt:~I"S of the Pr'E!ITI:i.etn 1 s OtAln Party is what led to this par~icular letter. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Ri~~ht on! Hear·, hear·! MR. RIDEOUT: Now, Mr. Speaker, fact that two j_ n out view of of the tht"(~e Ministers are on the public rE!COJ"ci as having denied this scurrilous merna, that l".:wo clr::•n:i.r:!d. Ml". Speaker, 1No1, and I tAii.ll gel.: to it -·· AN HON. MEMBER: That is not a memo. L.l.O Apl":i.1 ~>, 1.990 Vol XLl Ml~.

RIDEOUT: That is not a a rne1T1o? 1 Merno1"anclun1 to CabinEd: Minist.ei"S. I rhat. is not a rn~:!ITto? Mt". ~ipeakE!I", in vic'''tAI of the very serious charges the Premier makes against public servants, bor·dering on corTuption, or rnaybe even Cl"ilrdnal act:i.vi ty. for blackmail, and in Voi.('!\Al of IAihat thE! Premier says :is a s teacl y strE:~arn of reports and complaints corning to his office, could the Prern".ier tell the I-lOUSE! l:hE!

SOLII"CE! of t has e compJ.ai nt s that \AlE• r'E! so bad as to induce tlw Prt:'tnJor· to make s E!riou s c hat"9€~ s agaJ.n s t E!VE!I" y pub]ic ser·vant t:~rnp1oyecl by l::hc:· Govel"nrnent of ·NE!IAifound]and and Labl"ador? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Pr'E!ITiit:~t'. PREMIER WELLS: Let me correct a coup1e of misstatements in the Leader of Lhe Opposition1s

preamble. SOME l-ION. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! P r~ EM I.E r~ WF L L..~>: .[ lAIO U 1 d J :i. k E' l:. 0 C 0 I" I" H C l: a C 0 Up 1 (' of n1isstaternE•nl..s in t.he hon. Leader of the Opposition's pr'E!arnb1e, Ml". Speaker·. F:i.r·sl., l:he Ministers did not deny Lhe existence of this rnerno1"anclu111. AN HON. MEMBEr~: Thc:~y sa·.id 1 no 1! PREMIEI~ WELLS: They denied the l:.o ta1 ITiiSI"E•pr~?'sentation and distortion of it by l:.hE• ·L..eaclc:!l" of· Lhe Opposition. That is clenic::od. NotAl, Mr. 5pec1b?'t", ·i l: !Alas las l: June::! and July.

I tAlill qo back c1nd sc:•e if I can Find any I"E!FE!I'E•nce~; or notat:i.ons anyiAihere. For· Lhe n1os l.. part, rny reco11E!Ction :i.s !::hat !:.hey No. 1 H (Afl:.C'I"noon) I~ I 0

were ve1nbal, if not t.otally vc:~J"bal complaints. I will go back in the files and go - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Or·der, please! The Chair is having grc:~at. difficulty con centra ti.ng on t:hE! answer being give:~n by the Pr~~mie:~r because of interruptions frorn rny right. rhe Chair has made several rulings on intE!rrupU.ons dur·ing Question Period so the Chair can listen to the answers . fhe hon. l:he Prerrrh~r. PI~EMIEI~ WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, I 1Ari11 go back through the records and see if the:1rc:~ 1.1.1as any not:ation of individual instances, if t:here arE!, if I can find any, or· find any 1necollect.ion from any oF rny staff . I do not remember t:he details. I ce?.rt.ainly rc~rne :>.mber Lhe incidence of it and Lhe subs Lant.ial numbc:!r' of t:hem Fl"ocn a variety of sources. That is why I tJJrote -- Ml~. SIMMS: Rumour·s. PREMIER WELLS : IF it is, it should be substantiatE!d. If it :is r·urncn·, it should not be act:ed upon. But there was so rnuch of it., tha.t it tJJas necessary Fo1n JnE! to do this.

I think I should probab1y b~~ abJr::! to point out some specific inciclc:'nts. One, I be1oi.eve, IAJas tJJI'lE!re a senior public - SE!Invant hired his boss's daughter. That was one I remember, one specific incident that I rE!rnember. He hired his boss's claughb>.r or son. I rernernber that specific one 1.. 1. 1 Apr'i ,l 5, 1990 Vol XU OCCUI'TE!cl. MR. RIDEOUT: You do not mean his political boss? PREMIER WELLS: No, his public servant boss. Hi.s superior's son or daughter . I remembE!r that incident.. I do not know the narne or· 1.1.1her·e or who, but I remember such an incident havoi.ng occurJ~ed. MR.

SPEAKER: fhe han. the Leaclc:!r of t~ hE! Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. SpE!aker·, in viec!lAJ of the fact . tha.t in rny fir·st qUE!SLion I ask~~d a nuJTibeJ" of M:i .nis tE!rs I.I.Jh(:!thE!I" or· not Lhey had been instructed to investigate coi.rcurnstance s surrounding the hiring of sta0f a n cl L h e y s a :i. d , ' n o ' , t. h e P I" E!

ITI i e I" stopped bc:.f'ort =• he got l~o the:?. next se ntence wh:i.ch says the fo llot.~.Jing: 'I uJould dS k Lhat edch M . . c "1""1 . l . l :J.n:Lst.e r· car·eru .. y :J.nves .1qa :.e this sit.uat:ion as it: app lies to hoi. s Ol" he1~ ou1n Deparl1ner1t.' ·lhe PI"E:~rnieJ" goes on thcc!n to ask thoscc ! Ministers to report back to him. Ml". Speaker, l want t.o ask Lhe Premier, wou1d Lhe Pr·enrier· infor·m thE!

House nOI.I.J of the:• r·esu1 ts of · t h o s E· M i n i s t e r· i c1l i n v E! s t: i g a t. i o n s that hE!, in fact, ordr:~I~E·d j n Lhi s particular· memor·anclum last Ju1y, and would the Premier table iL? Mf~. SPEAI<Ef~ : The hon. the Pl"eJni(:!r . PREMIEI~ WELLS: I IAJ:i .IJ sue, Ml". Speake1n, i·f thei "E! is any For·ITial record of incidunt s, but rny r·ecollE!Cl.ion is lher·c:• wE·r ·e some reFerences back to confirm t.hat t.h:is koi.ncl of abuse tAla ~:., No . :1.8 (Aft:.eJ"noon) 1n1.

inciE!ed, tak:i.n~J pJ.act=:', and instructions were issued to the Public Ser·vict=:1 to E!nsure that: it would not continue-:-. And I should say, Mr.

Speaker, in the fina1 solution to ensure absolute fairnE~ss, my recolJ.ecU.on is that sometime after this we provided that in thE! case of aJ.l tempor·ary employees, instead of being appointE!d by thr:1 MinistE!r, as it. t.ua s be for· e , or by t: he c i v i 1 ser·vant and rE:!sult. in t:his kind of abuse, lAJhat. we put in place was, we bel:i.eve, tht=:1 uJ.t:i.mf.lte soJ.ution: the public servants tAJould name thl"r:1e Ol" four· or· five or· howeVE!I" rnany WE!re qualified fe>r t:.he position and the Minister would make the appo:i.nUnent, and that tAJay we could prevent abuse by e:i.ther. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! AN HON. MEMBFR: (lnaucl:ible). PI~EMIER WELLS: Yes, I bE!1:i.t=:1Vt=:1 l:.he 1'r1erno IAJas writ:.ten by t:.he President of the Council sornet:.irne later to deal tAJith the abusE'! tAlE' found, in or·der to avoid that occurring. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Table the reply. MR. SPEAKER: ·rhe hon. the Leader· of the Opposition. Mf~. RIDEOUT: rhank you, Mr. Speaker. Ml". SpeakE!

I", in view of t:.he fac l: that thE· Pi"em:ier ha~; notAl conr''"i.l"iriecl t:hal~ he did, in fact:.··-and these are his words again in his letter: 1I would ask that each Minister carefully investigate this situation as it app1:i.E•s to his or hel" own clepar·trnt=:1nt1 --I tAJanl:. to I. 12 Apr·il S, 1990 Vol XLI a~Jain ask LhE! Mird.stE!I" of F'ol"esti"Y and Agr·icultur't=:1 tAJhetl·11:>r, -.in fact, he has cornpJ.:i.E!d lAJ:ith l:he Pl"~=·nd.ei" 1 s rnE•mo of Ju1y 26th ··- MR. SIMMS: Ht=:' said no. MR. RIDEOUT: -and if, in fact, he recEdved il:, because he is altnE!ady on Lhe pub1ic record as saying no.

Has he complied with it? First of all, does he want to change his answer and say he has received it, has complico1d tAJith it and has rnade a report back to the Premier? MR. SIMMS: A good quest:ion! MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speakr:1r, fir·sl:. of all, I do not want to - MR. SPEAKER: Or·dr:1r, pJ.ease! I havE'! not recognized lhe Minister yet. The hun. the M:i.n:i.s Lei" or' 1'·o1"e~: l .. I".Y and Aqricull:.Ui"e. MR. FLIGHT: Fir·sl~ of aJ.l, :r: do not. tAJc:tnl· to change rny answer. Ml~. SIMMS: You clo not want to change you anSlAJ('Jn? MR. F LIGifr: I do not t.~.Janl:. l:.o change rny anstAJE'Y'.

Second1y, 1 l"enlumbE!I" l:.hl::! ITII:!rno the Prl:'!lrt".iE!r lnE:•ad and l"l:'[cet"i"':~cl to. Inasfar as :i.t applied to me - MR. RIDEOUT: We will probab1y gel: a sl:raighl:. answer yet. MR. FLIGHT: No . 18 (A Fb:•r·noon) I~ 12

I remember now, having refreshed my memory. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. FLIGHT : As we all would . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, ph~ase! I remind han. Members to my ri~J ht that there is a procedure for asking questions. They have asked the question. Now, they should let the hon. the Minis te1n of Forestry answer the question. The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. FLIGHT : Mr. Speaker.

I remember to the extent that I can r~~call -· I haVE! dealt lAJith a lot of rn~~rnos sinet'! that particular one - my reaction, as Minister of Forestry, was to J.ook at t.hE:~ rn~:!ITIO. dE"l:.enrr.i.nE! whether it applil"!cl Lo my Deparl:ment and, if it was nE:'Cl:\SSary, l"epOI"t:. back tu thE:~ Pl"~~rni~:!l". In rny case. thel"f"• I.<.Jas no such plnoblE!ITI :identif·.i.ed :in thE! Department of F OI"E:~s t:ry. and I afll nol: sure, I may have Vl:!l"ba11y rnentionE!d it to the Pr'E•rniE:!I" but I surely did not reply by way of merna. MR. SPEAKER : rt1e han. the L.ea<h'ln of l: hE• Opposition. MR.

RIDEOUT: Thank you·· .- Min . SpE!akel" . Mr. fol" the Spt::~akE!r, that is a finE! danco somebody I.<.Jho derded l"eceiving rn1:~rno in the begi nni n<~. MR. SIMMS : And the instructions . LU Api":i.J. ':>, 1990 Vol XLI MR. IUDEOUT.: And the instructions. rhe Minister had better be careful, Mr. Speak1:•r. I might tablE! his lnesponSE! to the Pl"E:~rn:i.E:'I" be f oi"E! the next: few weeks are over.

Mr·. ~ipE!akE!In. in uietAJ o·f Uw fact that the PrE:~rnier wc:!nt on in his rnerno to say thE! follolAJing to his Minis "lE!rS, 1 If any public s e 1nv ant is found to be ~~ngaging in ~;uch obvious political or fr·iendship patronage activity. hE~ Ol" she :i.s subject to instant dismissal for cause, regardJ.ess of the 1eUE!1 of office held.' M I" .

S p e a k e r . c o u 1 d t h e P I" e rn i e I'· t.l:~.l1 the HOUSI'? lAlhE!l:.I1E!I" Oln nol: .. before issuing this categoric instruction to his Ministers if they found any evidence of what he asked thli:Hn to look for, tAJhE!LI·H:!I"' Ol" not the Premier had any discussions with the union representing Government E!ITiployE!I':!S? Because for Goul:!l"niTJE:•nt to take such unilateral acLion against employees who ctre protected by a coJ.leclive b a I" (;J a i n i n q · u n :i L • d c o 11. e c \· i v e agreornent, certain1y, l do noL believe. I.<.Jou1cl IJ'Ieet lAf'i Lh t.h1:~ approval of the union concerned.

Could LhE! Pl"em:i.E!I" l.E!ll the House whether or not he had any discussions before issuing those :ins·ti"Ucl:.ions, and lAJheLher· Ol" not he received the approval. of the rr:~pin('!SE~nt.at.iues or~ l:hE! GOUE!InrHIIE!nt employee 1 s to take this drastic action hE:! is orclei""i.ng MinisteJ"S l:.o take? MR. SIMMS : Of course not. is the Premier . Mr~. f.-iPEAKEr~ : OF coUJ"Se not.! The · han. the Prern:ier . No. 1.8 (A f' t.e1"noon) He 1\13

PREMIER WELLS: No, Mr. Speaker, there were no discussions, and there were no discussions for two very valid reasons. One, any c:i.vil servant who brE!aC he s tht'::~ J.at.~Js or the rules under lAJhich Gover·nment oper·ah~s is subject to dismissal without regard to tJJhat the union wish~::~s. We have no intention of breaking any collective agreement provisions. and anybody who is protected by a collective agreement provision would be protected in this circumstance. Secondly, Mr.

Speaker, the simple fact is that my experience with the unions is that they would find this kind of approach by civil servants as unacceptable as we would, and they would give us a good loud pat on the back for taking this kind of step to correct these unacceptable practices. MR. SIMMS: I would not use your experience with unions as - MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: ThE! han. the Oppos:i.t:.ion. Ml~. RIDEOUT: Leaclr:H' of the Mr. Speaker, the Member For St. John's (Mr·. Murphy), now that all collective agreements have expired. tJ.Joulcl probab1y I:H,~ bE!U:1:!!" off keeping quiet. Ml~.

SIMMS: ·~fh-E;;--rn·c~-;:·i·:l:.fi f 1" o rn t h e s o u l:. h . Mf~. RIDEOUT": Mr. ~3p~::~alo:>r, I question fol" the Pr·emier teLl the not any civil have a Further Premier. Can the House whether or servant has been U4 Apr-:il S, t<J90 Vol XU fired as a result of the investigations he asked Ministers to carry out in this particular memo, dated last July 26? Mf~. SPEAKEr~: The hon. the Pr~:!lllier. PREMIER WELLS: My rE!COllection is no.

Tht'::'r'e tJ.Jas one civil sr:H'Vant who lAJas r'l;!1iE:~v~:~d of his responsibilit.iE:!S shor·tly after the Government took office tAJho was involVE!d J.n a mal:.tE•i" referred to in this memorandum. This tJJas the rnattel" of, I bE!J·ir:~ve, the Lead~::~r of l~hE! Oppos'it.ion's pi"e~;s SE!CI''E!'lal~y. BE!fOI"e Lhe change of Government took place or in thE· i.ntet"irn, he senl:. th".is Pl"ess secretary clotJJn and had hilll squiJ"relled away in l:he Depai"Lrnent of Fisheries.

We on1y discovel"ed it SE!Veral tJJeel<s J.at.E!r, and I think that is rE!f,:•i"l"l:·d lo in l:.he memorandum, and the Deputy MinistE:'l" of FishE!i"ies lAJho tJJas l:.hNl Deputy M:i.nisteJ", obvious]y rnus'L haVE! done that. But· ·i.t lAk\S nol: bPcause of that :l.nc:i.clenL. My l"eco1.lr:~cti.on ·.is thal:. only C<'lllir• l:.o 1 i q h t s orne t: :l. n 1 e a f [._.::. I" t1·1 i:d. parttculal" dE!puty n1inis l:.el" t.11as rE~J.ieved.

So I Cc\nnot say t:hal:. :i.t. was clone as a result of what is in th".i.s rni':·ITIO, but that. rnatl:.ei" thal.. is referred to there, I l:.hink, reflected that kind of improper bPhaviour' by l:.hat pai"l:.icuOlar' deputy rr1in:i.ster'. MR. SPEAKER: rhe hon. l:.he L.eaciE•i" of l: hE:! Oppos:it".i.on. Ml~. RIDEOUT: Ml". ~:)peal<ei", obvtous1y, tr-you ca11 juclqP l'ro1n tAJhal:. the~ Pl"eni·."Lr•i" lAii.'IS saying, t.here was no founclat".ion Foi" any of those I"UirlOUI"S he l:.ook such drastic action on, it was just a witch-hunt: by l:.he Gover·n1nent. That i.s exact]y lAJha·t. No. 18 (Afl:.en10on) 1nt~

it. LAla s . Now, Mr. Speai<E!r, ll=>.t me come to the next series of questions which were raised by the Premier as a result of Paragraph No. 5, I I:H':!lievE:~ it lAkl.S, in his particular memo. He has identified the Department, he has ident.i fied the past minister; the person was a press secretary, so everybody knows we are talking about Mr. Robert Cahill who used to be press secretary to me as Minister of Fisheries. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me ask the Premier is HIE!

PrE!rn:i er atAliH'€~ that the gentleman he rnentiorll:'d in PaJ~agr·aph No. 5 camE' to tho Public Service of Newfoundland and Labrador as a result of public cornpeti tion and was recomrnendE!d by the Public Ser·vice Commission to be hir·od as a public infor·mation officer in the Petroleum D'.irector·ab~ and lAlas, in Fact, hired as a pubLic irrFot~lllation offoi.cer by l:he PetJnolt!Uifl Dit"ectorate? MR. SIMMS: Through the Public {"' . ,:lerv·1ce. MR. SPEAKE!~: The hon. thE~ Prem:i.E~I". PREMIER WELLS: He rnay at some t:i.ITIE! in his past have been so hir·ed, Ml". Spt::~ak(!r, I do not know.

I arn not awat"e of it. I t.~d.11 check it, if the hon. the Leader of the Opposition wants :it. But at the tirne he was a political appointee servin<;J l:.hE~ Leadetn of l:he Opposition as a po1itical appointee and, as such, ceased to bE:~ a civil SE!Invant in that category. So this is the action that was taken prior to the change of Govt::'l"niTit'n t:. But I t.uj.Jl check and see if that:. is thE~ t.uay he OJ"j.ginal.ly cainE:! into the Publ:i_c Ll5 Apri1 1~, 1990 Vol XLI Service, Mr. Speaker . MR. IUDEOU f: A suppJernentary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: fhe hon. thE! L.ead1:!r' of t:he Opposition . MR.

RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker, to quote briE!Fly the Premier's letter again, in referring to this gE~ntlE!IIlc:Hl and this incident, hE! says, 'Without ever having gone through the compE!tit.ivE~ pr·ocess. 1 I lAJoulcl assume one checks infor·1nat.ion before one ~rites categoric statements like this. Mr.

Speaker, is the PI"E:~rnieln atAldi"E! that the samo gentleman referred to in par·agr·aph 1 ~ in this rnPmo 1~1011 intPrl1al competition conducted by the Public ~:ierv ice Cornrrr.i s s ion fol" thE' position of Pub1ic InFOI"ITiat.:i.on Officer in the Department of Fishet"ies, a unton pos:i.t:i.on in l:.he D E~ p a r t ITI E:! 11 t: of F i s h e I" t e s , c:t n cl IAJ a s r·ecornrnencled by the Pub] j c ~3et'··vice Contrnj_ssion as cand'i.clal:.e nun1bc•t" on~C· on the bas:is of lllf!l"iL, and tAli:'''''· hired by !:hE'!

DepaJ"l:.lnE:·nl:. ol Fisheries as Public lnforrnaLion OfFicc:'l", and !:hat, in fact, l:.hal: <:JE!nt1ernan qot h:i s pos:i . t:j.on :i.n t.he Department of Fishertes as a result of public competition? MR. SPEAKE!~: ThE! hon. tl1e Pr·en1:i.e1". PREMIER WELL..~): Mr. ~)pl'~ai<E!r, I LAri.ll 111ai<E! Fu11 inqu'.iry into the entire record and position and 111ake avai1ab1c:· to th:i .s 1-lous(~ fu11 details, noL ju~;t selected details. It will be done. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Leadc::!l" of L.he Opposition . No. 1.8 (A f l:.eJ"noon) I~ 1 1:)

MR. RIDEOUT: It is ve1ny difficult, Mr. Speaker, to cJ.osE! the:~ bar·n dool" IAJh~:!n the horse is gone. Mr. Speab"H', is the Premier not aware that the gentleman again referred to in pa1nagraph No.5, whom he treated so unfairly and IAJrongly and has since been fired by this Government, that that genth~man COITirnitted one error. His work was good enough that I, at the tirne, as Minister of Fisheries, noticed it and asked him if he would consider being secondE~d as Press Secretar·y to the Minister. AN HON. MEMBER: That is not right. MR.!. SIMMS: That is right. Precisely. MR. RIDEOUT: Right? Okay?

Is the Pr'E!mier not. aware that since the position of Public Infor·rnation OffiCE!r in Lhe Department of FishE!r'ies and in every other DE!partmE!nl:, as fa1n as I k nolAJ, is a bargai ninq u ni. t position, thC:'! ~JE!nt1eman, in Fact, had a right_ to return to Lhat protected posiLion if he so wished, within a prescribed tirne frame --u.ri Ud n a pr·e s c ri bE!d t irne frame·-wr·it.b:Hl in thE! co1lective agr·~~ernent.? And in v:ir:!IAJ of that, Mr.

Speaker, did not the Deputy Min:i stE:'r' at l:.he timE! conform IAJ-.i.t.h the co11ect:.ivE:~ agrerO!rnE!nt and give the person back his position to which he was entitled under the collective agreement signed with NAPE by the COVE!Innmenl:. of Newfoundland and Labrador? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Pr·ernier. .f ... ~..f: .. r:'!I.S_~.----~ .. tl, __ t,_~ : You SE!e' Min. SpE!akeln' theinE! is a problem when GovE·r·rHnr:~nts change from one political party to Ll6 April 5, 1.')90 Vo1 XU anothel". MS VERGE: Not that kind of problem, though. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear·, hear! SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Take your foot out of your mouth. PI~EMIER WELLS: I IAJi11 produce the r'E!Cor·cls. Thei"E• is a problem. When a new poJ.:i.t.icaJ. Gove1nnrnent takE!S offi.u~, you cannot leave in place, and that is recognized by everybody, the po1itical 'SE:'lnvanl:s of l:he forrnE•l" GovE~r·nrnE!nL, and the L.eaclet" of the Opposoit:i.on says, hE! a~Jt"ees with Lhat. Now this particular individual was the politica1 servant, and accepted appointment as the political servant and ceased to be a public servant - accepted appoinLrnent:. as the polit:icaJ. se1"vant of l:.he then Premier. Now! Now! MR. R.

AYLWARD: ~~i:Ja~; no't Pl"erni.el", he lAid S MinisLer of Fisheries. PREMIEI~ WELLS: The then Minister of Fisheries, and had l.:hat position. NOIAJ, Mr. SpE!aket", the nE!IAJ GovelnnHif!nL conte~-; in and takes -offic1:' and il: hds to operate on a basis of confidc~nt:.ia1ity and be ab.le to IAJOI"k :i.n confidenCE!, and Lhe pub1-.i.c SE:H'Vanl: normally pr·ovidr::•s l:hat. and t"E!Cogn:iz(!S that and i:\l"E'! J.oy<:ll to whichl:'!VE:~r COVBI"nrrll:!nl:. is in pOI;..Jl::!r. The political servants are not:.. Th1C!y are loyal l:o l:.hl:~·ir· poLil ical rnas tel"S, IAli'lE!

U1e1" l:.hey aJ"e ·.l.n pot..~ . .~~:· I" OJ" not. NotAl that. is l:he noJ"tlta1 rE!ason fol" Lhe chan~Je, and I should not haVE! to explain LhaL l:o the Leader of the Opposition. Nol;..J, Ml". SpeakeJ", the me1"e fact No. 18 (AFt:.el"noon) Rl6

that they haVE! th],s tnd:icatE!S that there are still some political moles in the place. All it really indicates, Mr. Speaker·, is that Lue were unduly considerate and we did not do as thorough a changing job as we ought to have done. We were unduly accommodating, and perhaps we will live to regret it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : Otnder, please! Or·dE:~In, please! The hon. the LeadE!r' of the Opposition. MR . RIDEOUT: If thE!rE! was ~=!ver· any doubt abou l:. Lhe paranoia inherent in this particular mc::~rno, Min.

SpE!akE:'r', th~~ Premier, u.lith his use of the tAJor·d 1 rnole 1 , just proved it beyond any doubt. Because, Mr . Spc::~akc::'r, is not the Premier aware that:. this particular I'TH: :~rno, sent by him to his Minis L e r s , was copied and s C::' n t by his cornpe Lent Minis l:.er·s Lo l:. he i r De p u t y M;i n i s t E! r· s , a ·t t:. a c he d ? Is he not aware that it was copied by Depul:.y Ministers and sent to their Assistant Deputy M:i.nist.eJ"s, copy attached? Is h<"! not aJAJar·e l:.hat :i. t:. IAJas copiE!d by Assistant DE!put:y Minister's and sent to Directors? MR.

SIMMS: Sent to Direct:ors, and there are 1,000 of them. MR. RIDFOUT: Is he not aware that Directors IAJere fo1nced ciOIAJn int.o the bot .... Jels of Confederation Building to try to find the poliU .c al moles leFt over from the last Aclrninis tration? Is the Premier not now willing to tell this House !.hat !:his IAJas nothing but. a 1...1.7 Apl"i] . ~'>. 1990 Vol XLI witch -hunt to try to get at people in t:he bot .... Jels of thE:~ buJ~eaucr·acy of l:.his Government who have no political connections whatsoever, but you u.Jant t.o ':let thE!rrl out~ to make room for your Liberal friends?

Is that not exactly what it is? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER WELL~>: To answer the several questions thclt t.lleJ"E! askE!cl to l:he E!Xlent~ t.hat I r·ernE:~mber thE!In, lAJas I not <:llAJiH'E! that it was copied and sent La Deputy Minister·s? Yes, becausP I expected it to be. Was I not al.llare it t.llas copied and senl l:o Assistant Deputy Min is ters? No, because I did not expect it to bE'. I did not E!Xp~~ct. it Lobe copied and SE!nt to anybody elSE!, I E•xpE!Cted the M'inisteJ"S and thE :! Dc::~put:y Minist.E:~rs to do thetr jobs :in a proper· .... SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAI<ER : Oi"der·, p]ei'lsel I r'E!ITJ:i.nd hon. ~JE:!nt1ernen c::tqa:i n to rny r·i~Jht 1ny I~(!C011,:!ct:ion IAJas l:hat u.JhE•n the LE•acler · of Lh'''' Oppos:i t·:·ion asb>.d his ser·:ies of qu1:!st:.'.ions there wa s not one interrupL:ion Fr·om the left . We are gel:.t:.ing cont.:inuous interruptions, so I a~:;k hon. Me1nbers l:.o rny r·igh l:. Lo plt'd SE• a11otAJ the PJ"E!trt:i .er the sarne courtesy that: was extended the Leader of the Opposition. l'hE! hon. Lhe Pr 'eJn:i.er . PREMIFR WEL LS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

L~,, L rne Sp~>.aker, No . lH ju~-;t say I IAJOU ld hav r• (AftE'I "rtOOrt) again, Mr. been aware, 1\ J. '/

or I would have assumed - I do not knou.J u.Jhr:~ther I was aiAJcH'e, but T certainly would have assurnE!d that it would have been copied and sent to the Deputy Ministers and I would have expected thE! Deputy Ministers to act on it. I certainly u.Joul.cl not have expectNf them to copy and send i L to Assistants, and copy and send it to Directors and so on. This was a letter sent to Ministers which I would have expected to be passed on to the Deputies to be handled in a proper 1.uay.

There were a variety of other questions which did not rnakE! much sense, Ll'lE!y lJ.JI'::'re ll'lostly political statements, but if thE!I"E! arE! any that I have not ansu.Jr:~red, r '"'Jill get Hansar·d and answer thE!ITI. ThE! one I do remember was, is this not a letter that was aimed at ferreting people out of the Public Service to rnake room for political friends, a witch-hunt or something? Mr'. Speaker, I am pinepalnE~d to 1e l.-. the lE~ L Lt~r s Land exactly as it ·is wr·itl:c:'n, and to allou.J it.

Lo br::• judged exactly as i l:. is IAJr-:i.tfen, l:o bH rnysn1F judqc:!d E!XactJ.y as :i.t_ is IAJr :itl:en, c;tnd to fully endorse and support today every word that is in it with a great deal of pride and satisfacl:ion at l:hE! desir·r:~ of this GovE·rnrnc:!nt to achieve Fairness and balancE!, and to issue instructions to thE! Mi.nisters, and th1nough t:he Mini.sters to their Deputies, to ensuJn€~ that there is fairness and ba1ance in thE:' r·unn.inq of Government in this Province. I grE!atly regret, Mr . Speaker, that hon.

ME!rrJbE!r S opposJte are so unfami1iar IAJ:i .Lh l:he pr·inciples of fai.rnE!SS and baJance that they have great difficulty understanding it.. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Ll8 April 5, 1990 Vol XLI Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Question ·Period has expirE!d . MR. RIDEOUT: Mole, rnoJe. mole, MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! rnole, SOME ~ON. MEMBEg .. §: (Inaudible) . MR. SPEAKER : ever yu.Jh e r~~ a When theine is solfle or·dc:!r' res LOJ"ed I wi 11 proceE!d to the rwx t i tr::·nJ of' o business. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudib1e) . MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees MR.

SPFAKER : The hon. the M:i nj s t:.eJ" or Muni cipc:\] and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE: Mr. SpE:~aker, I IAJoul.cl J:i.ke Lo present For· l:he inforrnal:.ion of t.he House the following Standing and SpE:~cia1 RE:'pOinl: s of Cornrni l:.l:ees.

A J"E!porl of' Lhe NE:'lAJfouncf1and and Labrddor' A1nts Council Fi.nan cial st:atc':!JTJents Mar·ch 1989; The"! r·epoJ"t oF l:he Newfoundland and Labrador Youth Advisory Counci] annual report 1988; l'he Heril:.age Foundation of Neu.~ound]and and Labrador financial sl:.al:em0nt.s March 1988; Annual report. 1988 --1989 of Lhe PJ"ovinc:i .al Public L-i.br·ar·:ies Boar·d; And the J"E!por·t of l:he Canada Games Park Comrni.ssion financ:id] sl:atr:!I'IIE:•nL s of No. 18 (Afternoon) RlB

Mar·ch 1988. MR. DECKER: Mr . Spr:~aker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister· of Health. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my colleague, the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, I wish to table the annual report 1989 of the Workers Compensation Commission of Newfoundland and Labrador. MR. GILBERT : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker·, at this timE! I tAJou1d like to table the annual report of the Newfoundland and Labrador Public SPrvice Commission fo1~ the year 1988-·1989. Petitions MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Member For Menihek . MR. A. SNOW: Mr. Speaker, the presenting to this over· 1700 narnE·s. pE! ti tion I am House today has AN HON. MEMBER : 1700? MR. A. SNOW: Over 1700 names of residents of the District of Menihek. I have tnixed emotions presenting this petition, in I am disappointed that in that this L.l.9 AplnLJ. 5. 1990 Vol XLI Government is not aware and cognizant of the problems associc-lted lAJ'.i.th traVE!l in and out of Labrador.

But I am proud to have the right, thr:~ honor· and y(:!~;, the responsibility of preSE!nLinq a petition to make the Government more aware of the problems associated with travel in Labrador. There were two programs put in place by previous Adrn:inistrations. One adrninistE•rE!d by thE! Minister of Wolnks, SE'lnviec:~s and Transportation called the Labr·adoln Air Subsidy Progr·am. His reasoning behind discontinu ing that

part i c u l a r · pro 9 r· am tAla s L1·11:! fact that there was a lack of use, and the h'.igh cost of administration. At this time, Mr. Speakeln, like to read the prayer pet.i t.ion for t:he reco1nd .. 1 lAIOUld of l..hE! ro the Hon.

House of Assembly oF Newfoundland in Legislative Session convened, the pel:i.t .ion of the undersigned residents of Labr·<;~dor CiLy and Wabush !:haL tAl(~ ar·e concl::!r'nE!cl that.. the Covet"nl'llt:!nl. of NetAJfound1and and L.abr·dciOJ" hdVE! cut Lhe air travel subsidy for cult:UJ"al and spo1nl:s g1noups by $100,000 and has !:hereby unacceptably increased the burden of transportat.ton cost on the residents of this Province who live in Labrador .

WHEREFORE your petttioners urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to reconsider il:s decisions and reinstaLe l:he Labrador travel program Lo its original levels. A S I N D U r Y B 0 U N D y o u r· p E! l:. i l:. i o I'll:'. l" s wiJl ever pr·ay . In continuing to prayer of l:he No. 18 (Aftet"noon) speak to petition, Lhf '! LhE! Rl9

Minister of Works, Services and Transportation stated that his reasoning was the high cost of administration. I vehemently disagree with that and also, of course, I disagree with the attitude and statement that he rnade that it did not effect many people, the use of it. was going down. Over 6,000 people had applied for grants or subsidies from Labrador to make use of this particular program.

Another program, administered by th.::~ Min'.i.ster of Munl.cipal and Provincial Affairs, the Labrador Tl"avel Subsidy Progl"arn, that pal"ticular Minister sus1qesh'd that the reason for cutting it was lack of funds and for budgetary reasons. I submit to this House that this Government has a $10 miJ.lion surplus, so lack of funds is not. an excuse. It is not a reason.

The real reason for cutting this particular program, and the MJ.nister of Finance can shake his head, but: it: is in the record that the Minister of Finance responded Lo my question ~i.n this House that his reason f'ol" cutting l: h 10:' pI" o g I" a 1n tAla s thE'! fact that the1"e was a pr'ograrn :i.n place through a l:ax benefit packagE! given by the Federal Government, and that is why this Government administered or cut these pl"ograrns. It is a clalAJ back suggestion by this Government to claw back these benefits that were given by the Federal Government.

I also submit: to this the real reason is a understanding of the House:~ that Jack of problt'rns and out associatE! d w:i. t h t rave 1 J. n of Labr'ador. It is the lack of understanding thJ.s subsidy was put in l~o makE! it moi"E! E!qua1 Fo1" pE!Oplo of Labr'aclor' to becauSE! plaCE! the I 20 Apr'il S, 1990 Vol XU participate in travel to the Island and back to Labradol", to b(:! ab1€• to participate For rnany, rnany r e a s o·n s . T h e p n:! v "i o u s Administrations r'ecogn·oi.zed this. So IJJe could call it an E!qualizel". If you were to travel from Port aux Basques to St..

John 1 s r'E! l:.t,ll"n it is about $11)0 by road. We do not have the advantage of travelling from the Labrador portion of this Province to tho Island portion of the Prov"inc'::J by road because of geography. But I submit to you with an understanding Govennnent tAle should be able to get a subsi.dy From Gover'nmE:~nt cornpar·ablE• to lAJhat t.h:i.s Govei"I'Hilent articu1ates as i l:. 1 s policy with regard to t:r'ansportation, vis-.. a .... v:is n)ad and tAJa"l:.el". ThE!Y hav€~ already announCE!d t.ill'··(:!e subsidi1:!s, reduct.:ions, :iF you tAktnt to ca11 it that, in far'(:!

I"E•cluct."ion on lAJatE!I" ferroies, and thus if t.hey were to use a similar type of poloicy :in app1y-:i.nq i.l: t.o Lh"• Labrador portion of the Province there should be a subsJ.dy to bri.ng clolAJn the ht~1h cosL of-ail" tJ"avel. rhe air travel should be considered in a similar fashion as the water travel and the ground transportation travel. lhis Government shou1cl do this, and I bE!liE!Vt~ that the COITIIrli.ttE!O str·uck by Cabinet - .1'1..1.L __ 2.e .. ~.8 .. !5J.R : Or'cier', pJ.eaSE!! I rern"ind the han. gE:'nt1''~11lan t.irn(~ is up. MR. A. SNOW: May I just conclude, Mr. MR.

SPEAKER: Okay. have ten Speaker. No. 18 (Aft.en10on) SI:!COJ'ldS is l~o 1~20

MR. A. SNOW: I would recorrunond to the SpE:!cial Committee of Cabinet l:hat. both programs bl':! irnmediat:ely rr::dnstatE:H:l and that tho Government commission a select committee of the House to study the improvement and enhancement of both these programs. Thank you very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . WARREN: Mr. SpeakE!r. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . I rise in suppot~t of the pE•tition so ably present:E:'d by my coLleaguE:~ frorn MenihEd<. It is rnost interesting, Mr.

Speaker, only just a few days ago I had the opport.uni t:y of bHing approachud by sorne 200 students in Labrador West. concE:~I"n.ing a pE•t:i.tion on this ail~ subsidy program and also of the cut in lhe spot"l:.s and l~ecr·E~at.·ion grants. And, Mr. Speake!", i L !Alas noted by one name on that petition, it is VE·r·y inLEH'ost:in~J, is the niE!Ce of Lhe Pt~E~nriPI~. The niE!CB of thE· PretTiiE!l~ si~Jned that petition showing t:hat: she is upset: with t.his Govet~ntriE•nt. -·· AN HON. MEMBER: She has the right . MR. WARI~EN: Exactly, Ml". ::;pE:!aker, sl·w ha~> a right. And natur·ally, Mt~.

SpeakE!r, she is concet"ned because this GovernrnE•nL has given the peop1E• in Labr·ador· a k-.i.ck in the face. rhis GOVE'I"nrnent has g-.i.ven the peopJ.e of Labardor a real kick 1.21 Apr'i.1 5, 1990 Vol XLI in thE:~ fac1:~. And Ml". SpeakE! I", one otl·wr thing tJJot~th nol:.ing is, Lh1:! Premier was in Labrador WesL on l:hE! 6th and UH~! 7th of Mar·ch, and hE! fJE!lAJ out: frorn Labr·aclor Wes l: l:o St.

John 1 s by oth1':!r rrwans l:han by cornrnet~ica1, and lhE! rwxt: clay lAIC:'tS Budget Day, and knolAr:i.ng !:hen that this GoVE!rnrnE:~nt was go:i.ng t.o Ieick it to the Labt"adot~ peoplE! in the amount of $600,000 to $700,000 this yE:~ar. That :is hotJJ much money you ar'E! taking away Frorn HlE' peop1e in Labrador l:.hts yuar aJ.one. Mr. SpE:~aker, just let rrtE! explain to the hon. PrE!s:iciE!I'll: oF Tr'E!asury Boat"d this rrwasut~e :is goin•q t:o stop a. lot of peoplE~ :in spot~ts and rect~eat:i.on Ft"onJ 'l:.rave11-.ing tht"ouqhoul:. NetJJFoundland and l ... abl"adot". And by clo-.i.ng th:i.s, Mr.

Sp':~akc:.•l~, you ar'E! taking i':llAJay indirectJ.y montes that peopJ.e would be spending in Labt"ador. So, Ml". SpeakE!Y', oncE· you stat"!:. add:i.ng it all up it. is going to be about $700,000 difFerence t:o the peop1e in Labrador. NotAl, Mt~. SpE:~aket~, Lhe hon. M . . l F r·· . l I I I J.rn _s :.er o ·· ::.nvJ.I"OniTif!n · . anc .. anc s lAl as p l" o u cl t o be i n s t-: I" u 1 n e n t· i'l 'I 'i n seLl:.inq up a contnt:it. ·Lee to look afl:.E!l~ !:.hose pr·ogl"atns.

And r: say lo IllY han. colJ. ea~Jues opposite and t-:o l..hE:' Pl"E:'Sident of TreaSUI"Y 13oi:'tl"cl that thE! wot"cl :is out: :i.n l .. abt"aclot" fl"Orn L 1 Anse - -au - --C1ait~ to Na-.in, ft"otn Nain to Wild Biqht, frorn Wabush to "ed Bay, I':!Vel~y corntnun:i.l:.y in L.abt"aclor·, lAihal:. th:is GovE·r·n rnenl:. has done. Since 19'~9. :if you put all the nE~~Jat:i.ves loget.het", t.her·e has never been such a slap in lhe Face to the people of Labarclor Lhan what was done in th-.is Budget.

I g-.ive Fair warning Lo Lhe Government-: LhaL if. they do not-: re-.insLate Lhis program Lhis Government has seen lhe lasl of l:.tAJO Go vel" l'llflE:' n l: Mr:O! rnb e I" s "in Labrador. I say to hon. No. 18 (AfLel"noon) R21

gentlemen, not on1y that, you a1~e also affecting the people going from the Island to Labrador, so you are also going to get negative feeling throughout the Province. I say to the han. Minister, and whoE:'uer· is going t.o spE:~clk in support of this petition, sure1y goodnE~ss they will announce today that they are going to reinstate the tlAJo programs, the Air· Subsidy Program and also the one for sports and culture. I say, Mr.

Speaker, in closing, I would hope that the Minister r·esponsibJ.e for culture and sports t.~.dll support. t.his ped:ition because he:~ has correspondencE:~. and I haue copies of it, fJ~om uery, uery irritated people in Newfoundland and Labrador, espE!cially frorn the Sports Federation and groups such as that. I say For the sakE! of why this program was in place first, why it was put in place tt.~.Jenty····four YE!ars ago, fifteen years ago, tE!n y~~ars ago, and last year, that thE· Minister· lAJould do today what needs to be done and that is to r€:!-.lns l:.a l:.e t.ha l:. pl~O<;JI~aln :i rmn ''' <h a t.r~ 1 y .

Mr. Speaker, I support Lhe petition. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affair. Ml~. GULIAGE: Min. Sp€~aker, I apprE!ci.ate the fact that a pet.i tion has carne in to l:he han. Member. We of course, wi.ll haue a good, long look at the pet.:ition, look at l:he addresses of the uar·ious people, t:.he locations that arE! "i.d(:'nl:.ifi.ed, and the concerns expressed in the petition. Mr Speakl:!r, I haVE! to say thai:. I do not think a Government has euer act.rc!d as quickly as this onr:~ in L.22 Apr·:i.I 5, 1990 Vo] XU responding to the people. I believe it has only been three days.

We haue had a Con11nittE!B seL up now well in advance of the pE!tition. We ~1aue, of" cour'SC:', responded quickly to the conce1"ns (:' x p r· C:' s s E! d and t. h r:~ corn 1r1 :it t. E• r::! :i. s active. We haue a Committee of fiue Ministers. We haue had several meetings and we are looking at the various programs involved in the Departrnent of Works, Services and Transportation and in Municipal and Provincial Affairs. We IAJant to be SUrE!, of" coui"Se, that tAJe exa11Iine U11:! various programs l:.hat haue been •tdenti ftr:~d in thr:~ Budget, M1~. Speaker.

We in Fact are do"i.ng just that and we will be reporl:.ing shortly to the House. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition 11CilF E' Leader. MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I haue actual.ly l:lAJO p~:·l:.it"ion• :, l:.o prHsent.. AN HON. MEMBER: On the same pr·ayr::>r? MR. SIMMS: No, they are two different issues . MR. SPEAKE!~: You canno ·t- do that . Ml~. ;:;rMMS: I just want l:o c'lduise, Your· \·lonour. MR . SPEAKER: You just. wanted to book LhE! ti.niE! . MR. SIMMS: I think l:hr:!

Sp(!akr::•r· ·.is Lryin<J hdi"d to get coUE!r'E!d on l"acl"io. 1 t.hj nk he is trying l:.o 1nake SOIIlE! quips ancl it "is not fa:il". We shou1cl let. h:i.rn. No. 18 (Afternoon) R22

AnylAJay, Mr. Sp,~aket", I have a VE!ry serious petition here which contains 1810 nam"=~S tJ.Jhch is rea] .ly a phenomenal number because the organization, the Board of Directors of the group involved h"=~re, told me the petition its1::-lf was circu1atecl in just a twenty-four hour per·iod, so for that group of people to work as hard as they did to obtain 1810 names in a twenty-four hour period "is phenomenal, and I think :it expresses their real concern about a decision taken by the Government with respect to the Youth Diversion Program out in Central NetJ.JfoundJand. NotAl, Ml".

Speake!", I only have f:ivE~ minutes and I have a bunch of points I want to try and make. These are the names of people from three electoral Districts, not one, not Grand Falls, it is Central Newfoundland Youth Diversion Program, and the names of the people involved are contained on the petitton from the Town of Windsor - MS VERGE: Which District is that in? MR. SIMMS: and sornE! from Badger·, communities, are in the District the rotAJI'l Of both of tAJh:i.ch of Windsor Buchans.

A number of names on the petition are from the Towns of Bishop's Falls, Bott~.Joocl, Point Leamington, Peterview, Point of Bay, all fivE• cornmunit'.i.r:•s in l:.he Distl"ict:. of Explooi.Ls. And, of courSE!, thE!r'e arE~ a nurnbel" of names on the petil:.ion from l:.he Distd_ct of Cr·and Fa1Js; so, thr'E!E! electoral Distt"icts, 1, 810 nalrii::!S. NotAl, this: Mr. SP"='ak1:~r, the issu"=~ is ThE!

Minister of Soci.al C n ' ,)eJ Vlces unfortunately advised L23 Apr·il 5, 1990 Vol XLI t:his qi"Oup, which J"uns l:.he Youth Divl::!l"sion Progt"arn out l.hr::•l"f:~, a volunte1:!r boaJ"d of dir·ectOJ"s, f'i.VE! clays befot"e the end of t:he fts cal yE:~ar, th<'lt HlE! funding it:. lAJas receiving to run this very :irnpoJ"tant program lAJas cut ol ~ f. Now, fivE:~ days, that in itseJf, I think, is not very COUI"b~ous and the M:in:ister should, I think, know a little bit better than that.

He also tries to give the impr'E!SSion that thE! fundin~1 ~riven to the CenLral Newfoundland progJ"arn of $76,000, l br::<J.:ieve i.t. tJ.Jas last year, Ol" tJJhatev1:!r' it-:. lAJas, was the same kind of funding given to other programs in the Province; St. John's, in pdrticu1al", i_s one that he compared it Lo. NolAJ, Mr. Sp"=~akEH', he is tJJJ"ong, because the fact of the matter is, the Grand FaLls pr·o~JI"am l"uns, not only an informal Youth Diversion Prograrn, but :it -runs a foi"I'I'Ja] Diversion Proqram.

The other programs in the Province do noL r·un l~he info1"111al pt"ogr'diTI as he lAJ f:! ]_ ]_ k 11 0 IAJ S , 0 I" S h 0 U J cl lA I(' -1.-J k n 0 IAl , as the Minisl:.er, by now.

One of the clifficu1ties with cutting off this program and l:.he fundi_ng for· this pr·o~JI"am ..... and l. know the Member For Windsor Buchans is qu:i.te concerned about this, as well, because I have ta]ked to hi.JTI about:. j_t_. -lhe problem wiLh cuLting off the fund'.i.n~J and st_oppin~J thts PI"O~Jr·am is th<:tt the qt"oup out thel"l:! received, I think, somewhere :i.n Lhe i:ti"C'd oF $200,000 last yea1r. l:o run, fr'OITI federa1 funcli_nq souJ"cC::!S, an :i nfot"lna1 pi"Og I" am. rhE! pr·ob1"=~1ll lAJt Lh Lh-.i,s PI"091"dlll notAl bE:!ing cut off and cancE•lJed, :i . ~; that Lhal:_ $200,000 funcl:inq lAJi1_1 b1:! lost, because the Department of Soc·:i.a1 Ser·vices, [can assUJ"e t_he No. l B (AfLio'l"noon) 1~2 3

Minister when he checks it will not be able to obtain same kind of funding From Federal Gouernment, directly their programs. MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible). MR. SIMMS: out, the thE• for We11, if that. is not so, let the Minister of Forestry come out to Grand Fails tomorrow with me and sit down with the board of directors, as I am going to do, and tell them to their faces it is not so, because they haue told rne it is so. NotAJ, if th~~ Minis t(:•r of Forl':'S try, the Member for Windsor ··-Buchans has nothing more to add than that, thE!n he probably would be better off out in the common room hauing a cup of cofFee. MR.

RIDEOUT: Let him say no again and not. tell. the truth to the Legislature. MR. ~:liMMS: So that is the kind of concer·n oF this group and this oJngantzatton. ThE:' s e 1, 810 people:' a1ne not. ta1 king through their hats. nwre are al1 kinds of other pinobloms, as well, Mr. Speaker, assoc.i.atE•d to~.dth thr-.:' decision. The Minister knows a lot of this, because he rnet. lArith the four members of the committee a week ago who, by the lAJay, I rrright say, WE!rf.:' quite discouraged by l:.he Minister1s responses, did not think he krli?W IIlllCh about lAJhal: he tJJas saying. I haUE! to say that. to htm.

They WE!lne not irnpr(:!SSed at all. MR. FLIGHT: (lnaudibJ.e). 1..24 Apr·il 1), 1990 Vol XLI MR. ~3IMMS: I all'l tE!llinq ti·H:• truth. l spokE· to t:he people inuo1u1=.!d yesterday. Mr·. SpE!aker, the M:i.rd.stE:!r can ~JEd .. up and say lAJhat he tJJant.s. They were not irnpressC::~cl tAr:i.th what the Minister had to say and UJE:'Y did not think he knew what he was talktng about. NotJJ that. is tn1e. I can only tell you what they told me. Mr. Speaker, let: rne just gtue him this example. What does he think of this?

Ear1ier today, this UE!ry day, Apr:i1 Sth, Uw ex~:!CUti.ue director of that pl~ogJnam in Gr·and Fall.s, reudUE!cl ·a call flnom the Mtnister1s Department in Grand FaJ.J.s, asking thE!lll .i.f they IAJou.lcl corne up and pick up l~.1AJO Filf!S on tlAJO young offE•ndeJ"S. They do no l:. euen knotAJ thC::Hnselues out t:huJ"E! that the program has been cance1led by his own Department. H:is Department phoned thE!Ill t.o co1ne u p a n d pi c k u p f--i 1 e s t o ch~ a 1 lAri l h two young offE!nders. So t.he1"e :l.s obuiously something wrong wtth it.

My lAJho1e po-.i 11t. -l.n 'l.h:i ~;, Mr·. ~3peaker, is that l:.heJ"e di"E• a l.nt oF questions, a Jot of concE•J"n~:., and ME!Jnburs oppos·it:l? should b1:• concernE!d about it. And I ask Lhe Mtnister, the Premier, the GoUE!I"nrrJE!nt, sine~~ it lAJas IAJ.iJlJn~J to set up a sma11 Cabinet cornrnittee to reuiew the cutbacks in thE! Lal::~r·adoJn t1navcd fund, lAJOu1d they consider sirntlar act.ions to 1neuie1JJ this dr:!cision? BE!Cause, I can assur'E! you, your ck!C.i.sion is JJJronq. MR. SPEAKER: Or·cler, pJ.E!aSE!! T h e h o n . ~1 E!rl t 1 ~~ 1r1 iHl 1 s t i ITI E:! i s u p . MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. No. 18 (AFter·noon) I~ 211

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. EFFORD: Do you want to get up first? M~~!liV!~: No, you go ahead. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr . Speaker, I have never hear·d so much political rhetoric and garbage come out of anybody 1 s mouth as just came out of the Member for Grand Falls mouth. First of all, Mr. SpeakE!r, 1 might point out, while he ernphasi.zes the rna~~ni tudl':' of the 1800 names on a petit.ion, that was one half of my majority in the last election, so it:. is not a la1nge nulflber oF names, but, let me say VE!r'y c1€~alnly to the ... _ AN HON.

MEMBER: Ti .ri-a-u·c:FiGYeY-~· -·--··- MR. EFFOIW : I IAJ:i .l.l speak l: o hi. s con c P r· n s :i f he IAJill sit and lisl:.c'n, as I did to youtns . Okay. Fi.r·st of all, J.et rne talk about the Youth DiVN'sion Program and its origin in the Distr·ict of Gr·and Fa] ls. Tl·w Member himseJ.f knows the poJ.iticaJ. role he played when he started out with funding on this particular program. Why it reached the stage of where there are twelve other progr·ams in this Pr·ovince similar ·to t.hl':' one in Gr·and Falls. What is happE!ning tn St. John 1 s is .::~ven mor'E! elaboratE!. Ml~. SPEAKER: OJncJEH', pJ.E•c\Se!

Or·der ·, p1r:~ase! T h e h o n . Me lfl b e r s t o my r i g h t t~Ji 11 give thE! MinistE!r the opportunity to respond to the petition. L.2 1) Apr:i .J S, l. 990 Vol XI..T MR. EFFORD : Mr. SpeakE!r, $78,000 lAJas usE!d last Y~'=~ar to fund thP Youth DivE•J"s:i.on Progr·arn in GJ"and Fails. WE! have eleven other simi1ar programs across the Provinc1:~ and one in St. John 1s which put through its progr·am last year, 500 childrE!n, 500 boys and girls compared to S2 on the for·mal progr·am in Grand Fal1s. In St. John 1s, we funded $2,700 For the Youth Diversion Program in St. John 1 s.

In Cr·and Falls, we funded an expenditure of $78,000, and this year they were asking for $85,000 do1lars. What was happE!ning her·e, Ml" . Speaker, tJJas a .Jot oF po1i ti .cal intprference. But I want to emphasize the value of the voJ.unteers in Grand Fa1ls. The value of a]l the volunteers all across Newfound1and and La brador, no way did we make a decision that did not recognizP the va1ue of Lhe volunteE!rs. Now, Min. SpE!aker', have we cancelled the Youth Diversion Program in Grand Falls? Absolut~C!1y not. What . t~Je havl':· dont:! Mt". ~-)peaker·, :i.s Cdnce]lr:•cl th(• aJTtounl: of fundin(:j Lhat.

Lhey dl"t:• r'E•Ct:!iv:l.nq. In do:i.nq that., lAJE:• have sent a soc:i.al worker to Grand FaJ.ls, spec:i.fica11y for· a six month period to pul: togeLher a prograrn iclt:!nt:i ca1 to 1JJhat :is heJ"E! in st~. John 1s, and if at Ll·1r:! end of Lhe day that soc:i.a] JJJ(:>r'keln reports back to the DepartrnE!nt of Social ServiCE!S and te11s us Lhey need accc,,ss to a co --ordinator· fi"Oin Lhe Reqiona1 or· Dis Lr:i.ct ofr ~tc~;! :i.n Lhe Departrnt:~nt of Sot:i.a"l ~3ei"Vices :in Grand Fal 'J s, then, as happens hr::!rE! ·in ~3L. John 1 s, Lhen tht:!y can access that co -ordinator.

Just Udnk, a co --oJndjnaLor :i.n ~)t. John Is For 1)00 chLldren' rhr·ee pE!OplE! work:i.ng :i.n Gl"and Fa] J s, full l:.oi.rne, for· 52 people. fhE! No. :1.8 (Af Lr::!J"noon) I~ 2 1)

ratio is absolutely unbelievable. If one co-··or·dinatot~ can do it. in St. John's for 500, why do we need three in Grand Fal1s for· 52? It. is basically simple mathematics, the ratio is absolutely unbelievable. We knoto~.J the Youth Divr:~rsion Program in thE• Exploits region is definitely needed, we knotJJ they were doing an E!XCellent job, but we believe they can do it much more effectively and efficiently tJJiLh less financial costs. We had a choice to makE!. We had a choice to give all the alternative major programs in th.::~ Province that amount of money, or, to cut: back on funding for Grand Fa1ls.

We checked tAiith the other peopl~~. lAJe chE•cked with the othE~In alt.::'rnat.ive measure pJ~ograms in Corner Brook, in Gander, in Clarenville, in my own District of Bay Roberts, in St. John's and right across the Island. It had nothing to do with the politics of what is happening. In Clarenuille, we gave them $1,500 for a ho~Je1ue month per·iod. In my OIAJI1 D:i.str·ict of Po tnt de GraUE!, lAJ~:! gave t:.hern $1'J00 For· a t.lAJe1ue tttonth period. $500 to put through an alternative measures progrctrn. They are baSE!d in Clar~:~nuoi lle and they do thE! wholE:!

Bonauis La Coast right dotAtn to Bonauista on a uoJ.unt:eE!r basis, and UE!r'y, very successful, a forma1 and an informal program. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! rhe hon. gent.1ernan's t i t'nE! has elapsed. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ml~. SPEAKE I~: I again point. out:. t:hat ques l:ions for to hon. Members Llris patnticular L26 Apr·LJ. 5, 1990 Vo] XLI period a1ne just Fiu~~ rninutf:!S. It would giVE! han. MembE'·r·s thE:! benefit of the time if we had fewer interruptions.

The Minist':'r, L1.1as interruptr,,d quitE~ a fE!lAl titTIE!S going thr•ough thE!I"E:! and I ask please that that not happen. l·he han. the Member for Burin Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I must say I find it r·at:het" offensive that the Minister of Social Services t.~tou1d s·t:and in this House after •rny colJ.eague ft"Ortt Grand Fal1s presenl:ed a petoition based on this Youth Diversification Program. A Program that saw 250 people tn Grand Fa1ls 1ast yc~ar· ref.::'tnl"ed t:o it.

My colleague pr·esenl:.r:!cl a petition on behalf of 1800 people and the Minister stood up and said it was gadJage. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me say to the M:i.nister of Socia] Services that Lhe people who are uolun'l..E!Bl"tng Lhc::!i tn t.:i.ttle, the 21:>0 people:! l:.hal: n1':!f:!ded l:.o bE! lnE!fc:!l"t"eci to that program and tndeed Lhe :1 BOO peop1E! f'r·orn CE•nl.i··a1 Ne~ffoundland who signed the petition dtd not. think it was gar·baqe, Si.r·. For a Member, Mr. Speaker, who spE!nt the;! last ttJJO Ol" thJnC::!cO! yudt"S cri3.tJJJ·.ing around youth u:•ntC::!rs, it is somewhat unbe1ieuab1e.

I:t is somewhat:. unbeli.euable that he would stand in this House today and tnE!fer· to thE· pr·~:!S~:!ntat:ion of a pet.ition on behalf of' these pE!opJ.e ~Jho need th€~ pt"091"C\tlt, cl~:; qarbaqe. I think, Mr. ~)pE!C:,lkeJ", it speaks for thE! type of cl:il~ec L"i.on that the Minister is giving the Depar·-trn.::~rl'l: of Soc.ia1 Ser·v:iCE!S tAJhen he stood by and saw fundinq cuL to No. l.B ( Af"l:E!I"noo 11) IV6

such a valuable program as the Youth Diversion Program. Mr·. Speaker, I know how vaJ.uable they are. I met t.~.ri th rnos t of the people who were on the Executive Boards when I was Minister of SociaJ. Services. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. TOBIN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, indeed I did. And I did not cut the funding to Youth Diversification Programs either, Mr. Speaker. We did not cut any funding J.ike thE! Minister of Social Services has done. We saw the budget of thE! DE·pat~trnent of Social Services, thE.~ Youth Program cut last year. The matter of fact is, Mr.

Sp.::,aker, that when th~~ peoplE! from Grand FaJ 1s said the Minister of Social Services did not knotAJ t.~.that. hE! tAJas talking about, they were right. And anyone E!lSE! who had any deali.ngs or feelings with the Minister· of Soci.al ServtcE?S know s exact] y tAJhal : the people of Grand Falls have stated is true. HE! does not knotAJ what he is talking about. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). MR. TOBIN: Windsor, t.ue1l okay but thE! pf:'ople who were in to see him. Now, Mr. SpeakE?r, I think i.t is incurnbE•nt, and the Minister can talk about the onE! in St.

John's and tAJhat l~hey t~efet"r·t:~d to and tht:~ numbers of people, but the Minister refused to state that there is a socia1 worker who is attached to one of the offices here in St. John's, Mr. SpE:'aker, what about that salary, Mr . Speaker? What about the salary for that person? What about the L27 Apr·:i.1 5, 1990 Vo1 XLI office expenses for that person, the secretary for that person? What about l:he t"('?nt For l:hal: person? It is all paid for by the Dt:~partrnent. So the Minister, Mt~. Speaker, should not try to deny Central Newfoundland or any o l:her part of NetAJfoundland, M1~.

SpE!akE!I~, the right to this type of a program because for some reason it does not cost as much in St. John's. Mr. Speaker, if thE:~ MinistE!r dOE!S not undE•rstand it, th:i.ngs at~e different in rural Newfoundland in most cases than in St. John's . They are different, Mr. Speaker . We do not have as ITiany pE•op le l:o clratAJ f'r•otTI in Lerrns of ge! .l'.:in~1 involved with the type of group that is needed to becomE! :invo1ved in this. For you Mr.

Minister to rob the pE!opJ.e of CE!ntra1 NetAJfounciJ.ancl, to deny the youth of CE?nl:.r-al Newfoundland, to deny the peopJe who depc:~nd upon !:.his prorjr'<:Hn l:.h''" r:i.ghl: to have a youth diversification program, is terrible. It is disgracerul. Thr~! Pre1n:ier· t"efet~t"ecl l'.o !..he Minister of Social Services once as rny Mints l'.E!r', Mt". SpE!aket", t.~.J ~i Lh a big hE!art or SOITIE!th:ing. WeJ.1, Mr'.

Pl"E!rnier', I subrrd.t to you that . tAJht::Hl you gPl: a pel :ition oF lBOO people in 24 hours from Central Newfoundland because the actions of this Minis Ler warr·an L.s that . tl·let~.::' be r·e.consid,:H'at:.'i.on givE :!n to the funding of l'.his program. I honestly believe and I beg on behalf of my coJ.leagues and l'.he people of Cenl:.l"a1 NetAJfounclland, I beg the Government to reconsider that decision. It 'is not a lot: of morH>.y, Mr . SpeakE!r, and th e Minis Ler and LhE! Gouern11H:!nt 1·1av':! l:o UllciE?rs Land, No. 18 (Af Lel"l'lOon) [~ 2 7

rnust understand the importance of such a program to the youth of this Province. I believ•?. that it is a wrong decision, it is a terrible decision, it is a bad decision, Mr. Speaker, - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. Member's time has elapsed . SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave, by leave . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . MR. RIDEOUT: The Ministe · of Finance should keep quiet. MR. SIMMS: As I indj cated t.o Your Honour at the outset, I did have two petit".ions I lAJantE!d to pine sent.

Since I did not have much luck t ... lit.h thE! first one, Lr..J~d.ch r't'a]ly dissappoints rne and I am sur·u it: will dissappoint people out J.n thE• Central Newfoundland a1nea. I would lJ.ke to present another one on beha1f of the peoplE• from l:he District of Wi.ndsor ·-· Buchans, the district of Exploi l:s, and l:he District of Grand Falls. Once again, three electoral Districts including, I might say, the brother, I believe, of the Mernb•:~r· for Exploits who signed this particular petition, the brother of the Member for Exploits. AN HON. MEMBER : WhEH'e is he? MR.

SIMMS : And this Speaker, is fr·om a t:hE! petition, people in Mt". l:hos E! L28 April 5, 1990 Vol XU ar•::-as containing fifty odd n<'lrnes - fifty -one I think it is - which asks the Government l:o live up to the cornrni trnent of thE! prE!Viou s Administration tJ..Jith res pee 1:. to providing funding t.o thE! Explo:i.l:s Valley regional recreation facility. The Minister for Municipal Affairs responsible for recre!ation in this ProvinCE! tAJou1d be f u 11 y aware of this i s suE! and how important it is to the pE!OplE! of that Central Newfoundland area.

And we your petitioners urge The Government of Newfoundland to honour the cormnitrnt1nt of Uw ptnevious Gover·nrnent to pr•bv:ide funcltng rOI" a recr·•:-ation faciJi .l:.y in Gt·'dncl Falls, Windsor and Bishop FaJls. Now, Mr. SpE!akEH', and as in duly bound your petitioners will ever pray. With only three or Four minutes to try to explain this, I will try to do rny best and hopefully the Minister can give somt~ ind:i.cation. Thts canH:! about. as a result oF a program introduced by Lhe previous Gov•:!r'ntnf:!nl: on Lhe i'\clv:ice or :· of ficials in the recreation division of his Departmunt. And Mr.

Speaker, the pr·ogral'll Lr..Ja s called the Regional Recreation Facil:i.ties Program. There were hearings held around the Province by a 1necr.:~ation g1noup of pe•oplE• tJ..Jho lis tE•necl to l..he ne1:!ds pr·esented t:o Lhe111 all OIJetn the ProvincE!. ThE!rE! tJ..Jas a present·ation rnad•:• by a combined cornrnitteE! out in the central N•?.wfoundland arc'a, not just fl' ·orn Grand Fails but front W~indsor ancl Bishop Fa11s, lAJho 111ade a submission on the need for· a llldjOI" recreation facility out there.

They had sorne ideas of Lying it in lAJi.Lh l:hf:' cotrtrnunit:y col1eqe ·· L.hE! campus out 1:-.hE'lnE! for· thE'' corntnuni. ty colleqE!. f"hE!Y had a llldj or No . 18 ( Af LE!r'I'WOn) R2B

cornrnttrnE!nt From abit:.ibi prier::! of somewhere in the area of $1.5 million, and they had other commitments or offers of commitment from the business community. The previous Administration provided a commitment of $1 million towards construction of that facility. The recreation officials in the Minister 1s Department did an assessment of aJ.J. those proposaJ.s they had receivr:~d as a resull: of this public hearing process, and the Minister 1s officials who are thr::~re today. the very samE! people, recommended at the time. the top proposal IAJas the proposal by thE!

Exploits Valley group which included the people, as I say, from all three electoral Districts. .. 8.r.~LJ!9_1'L_.!::':! E 111!L~ .. R : (Inaudible). MR. SIMMS: Let me just explain to the Minister now. The numi:H~r one proposal IAJas that. Then theinE! were three recreat:iona1 Facilities I1E!xt on thE· Jist for· stad:iurns, and LhE!:Y were for Fogo, Bonavista North and the Connaigre P1:'ninsula. And thE!

GovE•Innrnr::!nL of thE! day appr·oved and c'orrnn:ittecl, in fact. issued the chr::'ques as I recollect, for the three stadium projects which this Government cancel.led, oF course, and held back, and made a commitment that the Exploits Val1ey project t.uhich had been approved and recornmE!nded by the MinistE!r 1 s officials lJ..Jould be receiving funding in the following fiscal year. That is the way it worked. ~)o I say to Uw M:i.n:i.stE!I''. he is aiAJi.,re that this project_ that: t.uas proposed is a Fine example of a regional recreation complex. I would assume he has looked through it.

I lAJould assume he has tali<E~d L29 Apr·iJ. s. 1990 VoJ. XL.l to his officials about it:. I lJ..Joulcl assurnr:~ thE!Y have told h:i1n that. it :is a fine pr·oposal, in fact it was the best proposal that carne forth in the whole process. Now, Mr. Speaker. they t.uPI"E! not asldng for thE! entire cost of lhP project, they were asking for· a commitment from thE! GovernrnE!nt so that it could take that cornrnitment, and the commitment. it had of $1. S million f1nom Abit:i .bi Price and so on. to go out and do some fund raising to pi"OVid~~ Lhe funding to gel:.

Lhi.s rE!g:i.ona1 facility to serve the three E:'lr:~ctoraJ. Dis t.r·tc t.s and per·haps h o p e f u 11 y l.: i e :i 1: i n lAd t h t h E! university program thal has been ongoing out ther'E! now for Lhe ] as t: thrE!E! year·s t.u:i .l:.h fu11 time professors and everything everything there but a building that is all that is missing on that university program. rhey thought that this IAIOUJ.cJ bE! a gl"eat way to t:i.r::! it :in. So I hav(: a petition here from these people. i.ncJ.ucli .ng t.he Member· far' LxpJo:it.'. ( M r . C I" i Ill e

s) o IAJ n b I" o l. h e J" tAl h o supports :i.L strongly, he i~ a grr :!at r·ecr·eal:.ion CO!nthusiast as l.:hr:! Member for Exploits is. And l lJ..JouJ.d hopE! the Mints l:eJ" lAJi.ll q iVE! some ser·ious cons:iciE•Inati.on 'Lo thi~; request and to theSE! pE!til:.ioneJ" 1S wish and ask the Government to consider this particul ar application as soon as possible. Is my time up yet, Mr. Speaker? Mf~. SPEAKER : Yes. youJ" l:.:ilfle :is up . Mf~. ~>IMMS: Shame! MR. GULLAGE : ~ SpE!aker . No. 18 (A fl..el"noon) f09

MR. SPEAKER: ThE! han. the Minis LE!r of Municipa1 and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker, I arn atAJarE:' of course the people in the Exploits region are very interested in reactivating their application For a regional recreation facility in the area. As a matter of fact, just last week the Grand Fal1s and the Windsor Councils were both in to see me and that was the point on both of their agendas which tAle discussed thoroughly. If I might go back for a moment to the point where we took GoVE:'rnmE!nt, and w~:! ar'e looking at the programs that lAJE!T'E:~ in p1ace.

There were, in fact, three chE!ques issued as the Member mentioned, c:.1d we felt though in our wisdom that it was wise to review the program. The fact that civil servants had worked on it previously is rather beside the point. I Lhink thE!Y havt' a hand in most:. major proc;Jr'arns of Government whether it:. be in my DepartrnE!nl. or' any oUtr:!r', usuaJJ.y civi1 servants certain1y at Lhe deputy minister or d:i.r'E!Ctor leveJ are consul lE!d and they work hand in hand with the Minister on particular programs, in this case it was probably no different:.. But the point: that has to bt' rnade, Min.

Spec\ketn, that as UtE! Min:is'l:r:qn responsib1e I immediately Flagged some points of concern and expr'essed them to the Government. ThE• fact that the councils in most cases with the applications that we reviewed there were sorne ten locations For Jnegional faci.li ti .es, recreati.ona1 fac:i1il:.ies identifiPd where applications had been submitted to the previous Government. And in reviewing these applications and speaking L30 April 5, 1990 Vol XLI tA.Jith the councils, as thE!

MinisLc.~r responsible I di sc overed that councils in almost every region did not have agrE!ernents tn place between one another to maintain and operate these facilities. Inde1:'d fundr<:~ising had Laken plac1:! :i.n many cases becausE· aJmos t: c~'Vf.H'Y region, of course, tA.Jas anticipating and hoping that thE!Y would get approval and had done some fundraising.

But agreements were non-existent. fhere rnay haVI:O beE!n one or two in E·xistence, but really were non -existent in Lhe sense that a firm agreement obligating the councils invo1ued for their share of the maint:.enance and operating ~;>XpE!J'lSC0S, of COUI" SO, lAJhich is the big pr'oblenJ tAJiLh any Factlity when you are t:alki.nq in the $1 mi .llion r'<Hl9t::', $1. rc> million.

Facilities of that size, of course, have large operating expenses and maintenanCE! expens~ '!S, and rny concern as the Minister was whether or not the councils involved in any part:."i.cular area could maintain and operate these faciLities. So indE!ecl J.~>Je di cl IALi l hdr'i'llAI L.hC' problt:'!m and the Gover'nJi'lE!nl· . agJ"C'('d with rny recommendation tha t WP wou1d revisit: the progr·arn dnd bring in criteria t:.o do it proper1y. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. GULLACE: Councils did not disagree wi th that.

In fact, they agr'eecl tAdth the concerns that I had expr'e SSE! cl that, in fact, Lh1~y did noL have agree~ents in place. The ot:.her point of concern was the onP oF F:inancinq, Lhe fact. t.hal~ they would have access Lo other rneans of financing, p~:!r'haps have othE!I" rnE·ans of f:i.nancinc,1 look~:·cl at No. 18 ( Af ·l:e r'noon) 1<30

by the Go v (! r nrn e n t. . A n d i n d ~~ e d wE:' did that. We exarnim'd the vatn:ious options and, of course, the options are many. The obvious one is to simply require that the council involved come up t.uith the cash for their share. And indE!ed many of them were prepared to do that over a period of time and hopefully would raise the funds necessary.

So we also provided in thE! newJ.y announced program which I announced just recently the option for a council to acc~C~ss the Municipal Financing Corporation and, in fact, put t~heir portion of thE:~ir 20 per CE!I'l t obligation over a reasonable period of time by way of a debenture over a period of up to tWE!nty years. Not.u I am not suggesting that in every case they are going to access that because many of the groups have already t"ais':'d in exCE!SS of $100,000 in a couple of cases. So they may want to use their own funds for a portion of it and acce ss the Financing Corporation for another porU .on .

So u.Je havE ~ applied thE• flexibility to do that, Mr. Speaker, and that ha s been well rece:iv~C'd by the counc:i .1s involved, and I believe that this program u.Ji11 be vetny successful. We have asked the previously submitted applicant :.s · to reviet.u ti'H~ir applications and submit any revisions they would like . In fact they have the opporl:un:ity to that, including the Exp1oit 1 s application. I told l:he councils of Windsor and Grand Fal1s because, of cotu·se, they are partners to that particular application. AN HON. MEMBER: And Bishop 1 s Fal1s . MR.

GULLAGE : Ul Apr·il 5, 1990 Vol XU: And Bishop 1 s Fa11s. To revisit their application and see iF in fact thE•y Wdni: to rnakE:• any changr:!S before we priorize the grouping previously submitted. We have done that, l.1.Je are in l:he• pr·ocess of going back to thE! var·ious applicants right now and asking t.hern to do that. We do haVE! some fine applications in. In fact feasibility rE!ports have beEHl donE ! in the past on a lot of these locations and indeed I th"i.nk thE:~ councils are vetny pleasE~d lAJith l:he neu.J progr·am.

I SE!e us mald.nq a recommendation ve1~y soon, priorizing the var"i.ou s applications, .and getting on t.~.r i th the program, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : rt1e hon. the LeadE!r' o-f LhE! Oppos"i.tion . MR. fUDEOUT: What was it Frank Moores said? The t.iiTIE! has co1T1e and :it:. lAJ-:i.1J not:. be long now, Mr. Speaker. I am very plea sed to have an oppot"tunity to spe<: -1k Jn suppor ·l.. un1.i.ke l:he Minister·.

Lo spl!dk in support of Lhe pe l..ition so ab]y pt"esenLed by lliiJ co11(:'(01(3UC! on beha1f of re sidents of Centra1 Newfoundland, the Exploits Val1ey in pdlnticu1dt", l.I.Jho have no ol:.hE!r' option. Mr. Spt ;~ab,,r. but to come to this House of Assernbly thr·ough the method of pe t-.i tion and try to get this v"i.nd ictive GoVE!rnment to changE~ its mind. It . is tE!rrible that a Minister of the Crown would stand in his p1ace t:oday and rn:i.s1eacl thE· l·lous~:·. and pr·oviciE! fa1se information to the House.

Mr·. ;:;pe•akE!I". the hon. <;JE:·n l] E!rnr::tn lAJho is breakinq th~C! l"ules by interrupting wou1cl have don e bel: L e r t1 ad he h a cl l: hI' in t (' s l:. i n a l for·titudE! to ~~ E:!t to his fE !eL ancl support~ Lhe pel: .ttion thai : his brol:hE·r signed . No. lB (Aftet"noon) r~ 3 1

SOME liON. MEMB F I~S: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: That is when you can measure the integrity and thE! fortitude of a person, when he g l~ t s to his feet, and not when he stands in his seat and just shoots across the House and interrupts, when he gets to his feet like a person of honour and integrity and speaks for a number of his constituents who signed this particular thing. It is terrible that this Minister continues to mislead this House, and the public of Newfoundland and Labrador, on this particular rnat.tel". It ts rE!ally u n fortunate.

I lAJould use s tronge:~r language but it is not parliamentary so to do. The Minister knows the:~ difference:~. In this particular case there were agreements in place between the various municipalities in the Exploits Valley. In this particular case fund raising had be:~en comple Led by thE! ViH':ious municipalities and recreational ~1roups in the ExpJ.oi ts Va] .ley, as tJJas the case in Fogo. The municipalit.iE!S on Fogo Island had complied, had an aqreement in writing that they would maintain that particular facility. They had their money raised, Mr. Speaker.

All they did wrong was they voted lAJrong in thE! e1E!C Lion. That is all that happened. The same thing happened down on the Connaigre -Peninsula. Mr. Speaker, I suspE!Ct that rn:i.ght soon b1:• corrected but the same thing happened down on the Connaigre Peninsula. The fact of the matter was officials in Lhe Depal"t.ment, l:he same officials that are present]_y serving this Minister, the officials that the Premier tried L32 Apr-il 5, 1990 Vol XU to say today are loyal to tJJhoE~Vt'l" thE!il" poJ.iU.cal masl:E•I"S happE!n to be, l~he same officials l~hat gavE• advice to us as a GovE!rnrnent, Ml".

Speaker, the same officials that went out and cart"iE"~d out l:he feasibility studies that said l~hat the Exploits Valley recreational facilit~y was feasible:~ and ought:. to be proceeded with, recommended that it be proceeded with, that said that Fogo was fE!asiblE!, ou~1ht to be proceeded with and should be proCE!edE!d with, that said that.

Harbour Breton was feasible and that it ought to be proceeded with and should be:~ approved, those s<Hnl?. officials.· Do you think thE!Y gave diffe:~1"1:~nt advicE• to that: M:ini.sl.-,:!r un1ess hE! asked thE!I'II to ~Jive h·im t"easons tAJhy he could not appt·'ov':! it, Ml". SpeakE!r? That is the bott~om Jine here, Mr. ~3peab:·r.

When this Mini.st.e:•r wenl: i.nl:o t_hat Department he as k1:!d lhE! officials to 1 giuE! rn~~ rE!asons why I canna L go al-ll::!ad b.Jith this program. 1 His officials do not E!VE•n haVE! a copy oF his proqrarn, bu l: in t:.I-IOSE• par't.i_cular cases, the ones t;.Je ar'e refE!I"r'ing hE:!t"e, the one l:hal is t_ he pray e I" o F L h :i, s pet -j t_ i o n (: t" o 111 Exploi l:_s, the Minis l~er lAJI:•n L l:_o l·1"is offi.cia1s, or had hi.s Deputy qo to the:•m and say: 'Give rne l"t•asons tAJhy I cannot let t:.h:is program proceed. 1 And l~l·ll:' Min.-isLet" SUCCE•edE!d, Mr.

SpE•aker', and he does not have the tnt_egt"i ty --I have seen Ministers hide beh:i.nd Officials, but l:hat pat"ticu]ar Mi.rd.ste1" --- MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order please! The hon. gentleman's time is up. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh,_oh! AN HON. MEMBER: Sit down. No. 18 (A f l:.ernoon) R32

MR. RIDEOUT : fhank you, Mr. Sp,O!ai<E!r'. fhat. particular Gentleman sins the most, I say to the Minister, and I will sit down when I feel like it. MR. SPEAKER: The h on .---t he Me rn be r for S t . M a r y ' s -The Capes. MR. HEARN: Thank you, . Mr. Speaker. I have a couple of petitions I would like to present . SOME HON. MEMBERS : ----·----- ----- Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, pJ.ease! MR. HEARN: So as not. to confuse you ot~ thE! House, I will do them individually, certainly.

The first one concerns l::.he nurnber of accidents on our highways involving Moose, and the prayE!r of the petition is: 'The petition of l: he u n d ''"-r s i q n e d t~ e s i cl e n t:-s p r· a y that the number of accidents on our highway invol.v'.'ing moosP is unacceptab1y high and the number of moose licences issued to pE!rsons in this Pt~ovince has not. increased in proportion to the increase in the moose population wherE!fore your petitioners ut~ge thE! Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to take immediatE• steps to increase the number of moose licences available to the people of this Province.

ThE!r'E! ar·e a nutnbor· of factors hE:'re: 1. rhe rnain t~equesl: is that UtE! number · of 1i .CE!I1CE!S be increased so l::.hat. l::.hP qr,::-at rnooSE! population which we haVE! wi .l.l be brought under control. There are some other concerns, side concer·ns h1:!re that. might p]ay a pat~t, ol::.h"-'r L.33 Apt"i1 s I 1990 Vo]. XLI ways of conl:roJ. :l:i .n<;J UtE! nurnbE•r of acc:idc,~nts, which is l~he tnajor concern in t"E!1ati.on to l·:.he petition, and a lot-: of res·:i.clents are concerned about l:he Jack of clearing the brush along the highiAJc:lys, E:'speciaJly aiAJay frotrl thE! Trans -Canada.

When you 9'?.t onto the side roads of the Province, the brush is VE!ry, very close to thE! road and rnooSE!, E!Specia11y :i.n spring and surnrner, have a l~end,:!ncy to rush out into the path of oncoming traffic, and people, espec:i.a11y those who ar'e not use d to the number of moose on our roads and on our highways might be vE•ry much · unatAJare and, consequently, we have a nurnbet" of very, very serious accidents.

We would also suggest that the Minister of Social Services, for insl:c\nCE!, in J.oolcing at: lA'iolys to employ some of the people lAJho receive sociaJ. assistance we have seen some very successful programs initiated through his Department, through thr~ difh'''~enl::. local offices - hire recipients for clearing brush along Lhe h:iqhtAJays, IAJhl.ch heJps kf:•ep Lhe visib 'ility prob.l'''''' clouJn consiclet~abJy. A J. s o , i n N e t.uf" o u n d 1 a n cl , of c o u t" s e , in the wintertime, we use a lot of saJ.t on out~ r·oacls.

As snouJ is shoved ofF and l'Tl~Cd l:s on the s i.d1? of the road, undoubl::.ed1y l::.hE! saJt. stays there to some degree and apparently this encourages moose to come l~o the sidE• of thE! road for· the saJ.t licks, a~: all animals tend to do. Once aga:i.n, if L1·11:! side of Lhe road is relat-:ively cleat~, Lhen rnol::.or.isl~s can pick up l:hE! ITtOOSE' SOtTtf:! clts l:.ance C:\lAli:'lY. lf brush -.is grOL~odng ' righL to Lhe s i.d1:1 of 1::.1-tE! road, thE!n ].1::. rrtdkes i.l::. rnuch more difFicult to spot rnoose. The other Sect:i.on of the pel:.il:ion, No. lB ( Af Let"noon) I~ 3 3

asking that the licences be increased, would also be of benefit in enhancing our tourism industry, which has grown in leaps and bounds in recent years. Hunting in Newfoundland generally, whether it is moose or deer -- I should not say deer, I should say caribou or bear - has become known world-wide and we have people corning here from all over. One of the problems they are having is finding enough big game licences.

A lot of the outfitters in the Province, in fact, have been asking over the years that the number of moose licences be increased, and that the diffE!rE!nt outfittE!rS be given ITIOI"I:! of Uwse because they do cater to people who come in fr'om olhE!I" count:ri•,!S, not to say other parts oF our own country, and sp•:;!nd considerable dollars round the Province, wherever they stay, in the small comrnunitJes as well as in thE! larger areas.

So by increasing thE! number' oF moose licences, we are doing three things: One, We are cutting down on the moose population whoich i..s bE!COininq dan~lE!rously hi~1h; SE!COndly, W(:! al"l:! giving local residents, and probably that is the most important reason, we are giving J.ocal residents a chance to obtain a moose licence where many are not successful every year, especially in light oF the changes recently made by this Government in the moose licencoing procedure; and thir'dJ.y, it givE:~s the opportunity to bring rnore people into Lhe Province to hunt big game and, consequently, put more dollars into the coffers of the small communities around. ago I remember, when Some years you would would tend go moose hunting you to go to l:.hE!

M·illert:otAJn area, or to lerra Nova or to Central NewFoundland. Now, of L31l - Aprt1 5, 1990 Vol XLI course, 111oose hunting is big in practically E!VE!ry ar'ea of the Province. So, inst.:,ad of concE•ntrating our' efforts and OUI" dollars in certain sections of the Province, now hunl:.ing brings in revenues to eVE!ry sma11 nook and cranny scattE!red thr'oughoul:. Lhr:! whole Province. So, Mr. Speaker, we hope that. Government will listen to l:he prayer of Lhr::~ residE!nts concerned, and that th~'!Y will increase the number of licences in the Province for a11 the right reasons. MR. WINSOR: Ml". Speakr:~r. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Member For Fogo . MR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, it is a great pleasure to speak on beha1f of Lhe petition so ably put Forl.:h by my friend from St. Mary's ·- The Capes. I come from an area of Newfound1and where moose - AN HON. MFMBER : There are lols of moose on Fogo rsland? MR. WINSOR: TtlerE! Island. are no moose on Fogo Lots of car'ibou tl·lourJh. MR. EFFORD: Over'SE!aS. MR. WINSOR: Overseas. Moose accidents have been quite numerous along the Gander Bay Road.

I do not know iF t.he Minister of Socia1 Services is aware, but his Dep<:trt:.lnent unde1nt.ook a VE:!I"Y <.:JOOd PI"Oj~:!Cl. in that area this year' and I would E:~ncouraqe th~~ Minist.E•i" l:.o l:.hi~> surnrn•:!r, not tAJa'"i.t until nE~xl: Fall. No. 18 (AftE!nwon) R31l

. MR. EFFORD: In your district? MR. WINSOR: In my District, Sir. MR. EFFORD: No, I will not do it. MR. WINSOR: The Minister wil1 not do it. After today, fairness and balance just went out the window. Got exposed today, and fairness and baJ.ance WE!nt out thE! window.

But the Minister's officials had the good sense to undertake a brush cutting program, . going back about fifty to sixty feet - the Minister is not av.Jare oF the projE!Ct, obviously ···· from the side of the road, and besides improving the look of the countryside, making it better for the Minister of Transportation and his officials for snow clearing. It greatly increases the chance of a motorist avoiding hitting a rnoose, because you have a fair arnount of time to see them btO!fore they come out of the brush.

I compliment the Minister For having the forethought to listen to his officials and to put that program in place, and I would encourage him starting in May rnonl:.h to beqin again and cut t.hE! ent:.":i .re SE!Ction of road, a11 tht.~ way bclC k t:o Gander and points beyond. The Minister nods his head. I am sure that means we tAJi11 have approval next week. In recent yE•ars, because of good management by the previous Administration, the number of moose in this Province has increased dramaticaly.

A good conservation program the PC Government_ pul~ in place has resulted in the moose population practically doubling over the last numbE!r of years. The on1y thin~~ 1_31) Apr'i1 1), 1990 Vol XLI that has happened is l:h1:! numbur· of licences have not increased proportionately. The number of licences now given couJ.d be substantia1ly incJ~t:.'!as~;;~d in 111any arE!aS, and that cou1d HIE!i:Hl a significant reduction in the number of accidents that occur from moose being along the roadside.

The Minister of Transportation should also become involved and see if thE!J~e is some kind oF a corJ~elaLi.on 01~ s t:at:is tic tha L. can be arranged on certain areas of thE! ProvincE!

IAJhE!r'E! thE!r'e SE'E!HIS to be more moose accidents than in other parts -·· the Ter-ra Nova National Park COllies l:o rnind. ~JntAJ, IAJhile I rea1ize that t.he N<:il..":ionaJ Park is the jurisdiction ol t:.he Federal GoVE!t"nrnNlt:, ".it is not uncornrnon to drive,~ in on an 1:~a1~1y Monday morning and see f":i.ft.eE•n Ol" tWE!nty moose in the park aroa, tf you arrive before daylight, rwenty- ~seven a fr'it:-nd of ruinE! satAJ, corning frorn GandE•r' to l.he end of lhe Park, Lwenty ---st:-ven moose on a Monday rnor'ninc;J.

In adcl-.i.t:i.on Lo t.hat .. , of cour'S(!, the l:our·isrn pol-:.E!nl:ta1 of rnoose hunLers, big game hunters is a great asset to the Province, because every tourist dollar has a great mu1l~ . .ip1i~;;~r E·ffect:. rt b1~ings pE!opJ.r::• to our' Province to hunt big game and, of course, that: might ent:i .ce them to come back another season. So I have no difficulty in supporting the prayer of this petition so ably pr·esE:~nl:E•d. I think the M:i.n:i .stel" fo1" W:i .-lciJ·oif"c::•, tAJhoi.le my fr'it:•nd Fo1~ SL. Mary's the CapE·s -· You missed hilll . A spJ encl:i.d presE•ntati.on . No. 18 (AFL1:•1~noon) ln' :i

AN HON. MEMBER: I was outside. MR. WINSOR: Yes. There was a fair bit of noise on the other side, too. The Members wet"E:~ ovE:~r thet"e mumbltng, and it tJJas difFicult to hE!at" in the House at the timE!. Anyway, I support the petition and hope that somebody on the other side will respond accordingly. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Social Services. MR. EFFOIW: Mr. Speaket", I cannot J.et Hw opportunity to say a few words pass, since the Minister of Environment and Lands is not in his sE:~at today, for personal reasons. As Minister of Social Services and as a citizen of thE!

Province, we should certainly takE:~ this very sed.ousJ.y. We ar·e not talking about something rninoJ". A number of J.i.ves have been los~~-:i.n accidents on the rrans Canada iHH~ a11 the:! highlAJays, and ther·e has been a lot of personal injury and, as we11, gi"E•at financial cost to people because of damage to cars. I do not knolAJ if the Mernbc::~r for St. Mary's --The Capes rnE•ntionE!d it, but. I knotAJ in my ar·.::~a, in the,~ District of Pot"t dE! Gr·avE!, a number of local Farmers have had a trE!mendous problem with roaming moose destroying crops, costing tens of thousands of dollars.

The one thing I have to pass comment on is the fact that Uw De:~partmE!nt of Socia1 Services has been doing so much in the Member's District, in Fogo. Now, I havE• to takE:' a-second J.ook al: that-:. WE· cannot havE· too much oF !-:hat going on, we have oth('!l" Disl:.ricts around the Province, and if all l:.he monE•y 1.,36 Apr·il 5, 1990 Vo] XLI is br:!ing spent dotAJn :i.n that area, Ml". SpE~ake:~r, l:hr,~n I have l:o be surE! that othE!I" D~is tricts in !::hE· Province get equal representation. So I assure the Member I wi11 be taking a very, VE!I"Y serious look at !::hat to rnake sure we - AN HON.

MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. EFFORD: We1l, we will certainly have to take a very serious look. Speaki.ng about thE! farJTJE:•J"S ou L Jn rny District, I tAii.ll PI"Obab1y have:­ to increase the number of projecl:.s out there this year, because we had SE!Ver·a1 fa1"1Tiel"s las l.: yeal" tAJho lost an atJJfu1 lot of rnonc:~y, an awfu1 J.ot of money because of Hwir crops bc:'!oing destroyed by moose. It is not on]y the Fact:. that they eat and t.e:~al" up some, but l:hey tran1ple thl'!HI and eVE!rythinq e1se. Then there are l:.he fences. rn fact, on(~ far'lnE:!I" lAJE•nL.

L.o the expense oF put l: in g an e 1 e c Li'' i c fE•nce around his PI"OPE'I"ty. That was very expensive. Again, the good people of Port de Grave very, very se1dom come to Government looking for assistance, Lhey dJd it on their OLI.Jn and WE! cornp1irnr:•nt thosE'• peoplE:~ for· that. W:lth it wou1d be my VE!I"Y, qood c1edr thinking to help the people out:. Jn my otJJn District fol" Lhal: r·e:~ason alonE!. For the Member for St.

Mary's The CapE!S, a vei"Y ~1oocl ft".iencl of ITtoine, I tAli 11 certaoi.nly takE! a vE•J"Y ~~ood J.ook at tJJhdt lAJe cdn do up thc:!re t.his ye<.~l" t.o al1evj_al:e some:• or t.he pl"oblerns by ass-.l.st-.1 ng ancl bi"Ush cutting. I knotAJ Uli:!J"e'~ is a lot of brush up in that area. No. 18 (AflJ!r·noon) 1n6

We certainly suppor·L the pinayt~r of the petition and t:hE! concerns express~'!d by both Membt~rs. r do not very often in this life support what an opposition, especially the Tory Opposition would have to say anywhere, especially in the House of Assembly, but I must say the concern is for the well-bed.ng and the safety of the citiH!ns of the Province. And I must say it is not very often I hear something sensible coming from the Opposit.ion side. Thank you, Mr. Speake:~r. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. Mary's -The Capes. MR. HEARN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I mentioned that I had a second petition.

This one concerns the middle distance, one which will also interest the Minister of Social Services bc>cause it relates directly to his fishery.

I am sure he is going to stand once aga:in, i.f the M:inist.E'r of Fisheries is not back, and suppol"t thE! pr ·aye1~ of this pel:.it.:i.on wh:-ich says: We ar·e concelnnt'd that the Provincial Government has decided to sell the vessels oF our middle distancE! fleE!'\:., E!VNl though it. has been proven that the technology of these vesseJ.s aJ.J .ows Fol" morE! selective harvesting of Fish and helps to conSE!rve our Fish stocks; and Two: The catch from our middle distance fleE!l: has enab1t~d 111any of our plants to remain viable through the Resource Short -Plant Program.

We, the~efore, petition the Government of NewFoundland and Labrador to reconsider its decision to sell the vessels of our middle distance fleet.. L37 Apl":i.l 5, 1990 Vo1 XLI SOITII:7!1:irne ago, LhE! fonnt'ln Government i.ntroduced the middle distance F1eet, as we presenLly knotAI it, into thE! Province:', but, rnore importantly, they 1necr:~ived From the Department of Federal Fisheries an allocation for these boats.

This, in turn, he1ped build up, I suppose, u.Jhat wr:~ would call an independent quota, wh ic h gave the Province control over harvesting a certain amount oF fish which they could allocate wherever they so wished. As it happenE:~d. a nurnbr::'r of pJ.ants which were having bad years or bad pertods during · any orw year·, received fish From the Resource Short-Plant Pr·oglnam, fror11 the middle distance effort, and enab1ed a tr·~:!riiE:'nclous arnoun l of workei"S to obtain elllploy11wnl: and quali.fy for· UIC and IAJhatevel".

Before the change of Government, we received a tremendous amount of cr·i ticism fi"Om the pr:•oplu tJ.Jho dl"€~ opposite· notAl, con c E! l"ning the! middle distance fleet.

In fact, upon corning into power they 'ill'lrnediately cleciclecl t:o gel: r·i.d of t.he rn:i.clciJ.e dtst..ance efl"oi"l. l.L :is sort of peculiar now to notice that the t.tcle seE!riiS to bE! chanqj_nq and t:hdt thE! true value oF Lhesr:~ bodts and the quotas that were there until they were cut recr::!ntly, main1y because L.he cuts u.Jere supported by Lhe Government, thE·y realizE· thE~ in1portance of this right now, E~specially in t.he sma11er corn1nunities ar·ound thE~ Province.

P1anl:s c1osr::! as FE!tAJE:!r' al"to!CO\S havr::! access to the resource. fhe alJocation we had and Lhe boat..s that were Lhere to harvest Lhis resourcE! ar'(o! of ex Lr-elll(:! trnportance. I st.i11 l~h"ink t.hat-:. by the Government havinq cont:rol, by owning these middle distance boats, which arE! perhaps the bE" ~; L No. 18 (Aft:r:·r·noon) "J'l

boats in thE! Pr'ovincE! today, whtch have the technology to fish in practically any

section of the ocean where we would catch fish, whe:~ther it be in the North, up in 2G and 2H, and For a different number of spec:iE!S, IAJhich giVE!S us a tremendous amount of variety and, in our capability to catch and land ·to any part of the Province, a resource that could provide employment for our people. If we let those boats go, then undoubtedly IAH;! are losing a chance, as I say, to harvest certain resources that could not be harvested without this technology, and we are depriving a lot of our people of employment oppo1ntunitie:~s.

I understand the Minister has now had a c hangE• of heart and hE! is asking the Federal Gove~nment to reinstate the quota that IAJclS thE!re for the middle distance fleet, per'haps, and I may only bE! suspicious here, but perhaps because his own plant in Twillingate is in dire need of fish, and the owner has made it very clear that he is very interested in receiving, or obtaining, the boats and certainly thE! rE!Source the boats cou1d bring in. Maybe that is what it took to wake thE! Minist~~r up, because he does seE! the valuo oF the rniddle distance fleet.

Consequently, I hope the Government does hold onto the flN!t. In l:i.ght. of what i.s happening, as I say, with plant closurE!S - MR. SPEAKER: The han. gentleman's time is up. Ml~. HEARN: Thank you, Mr'. 'Speakr::!r'. But, the thE!m hopefully l:.hey IAJi.J l hold boats and then they can for l:he bE!nefoit oF t:ht::! onto use many L38 Apr·i.l 5, 1990 Vo] XLI Newfoundlanders out there who need such help these days. MR. SPEAKER: Befort::~ rE!Cognizing the hon. ME•rni:H:!r for Grand Bank, I IJ..Jan l:. to read out thE! qUE!Stions for thE! Lat.(! ShoiAJ.

The first onr::~ is flnom the han. l..he Leader of the Opposition saying: 'I am dissatisfied with answers given me by the Mintster of FinancE! to questions askt:!d by lnE! today re educational financing.' The second one is submitted by the Member for St. John's East st.ati.ng dissatisfaction with an answer given to a. question asked l:.he Minis tE!r oF FinancE• conc~~l"n:i.nq Lhe net cost: benefit to the econoi'lly of the Province with the recent influx oF refugees. The t:.hird om~ is submitted by Lhe han. thE! Mernbei" f'ol" Mount Peal"1.

He says, 'I IAJish to give noli Ct:! that I am dissatisfied w:i.Lh the answer given by the Minoister of Municipal and Prov:i.ncia1 Affairs to my question relating to l:.he est.<:lb]ishrnent: of Lhe MounL Pei:ll"] Fi1ne DE!palntiTienL. 1 fht::!St;:> dl''('! l:.hto! thr'E!E' ques t.·.ions. The hon. the Member for Grand Bank. MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I take pleasure today in rising on t.hts occasion to support the petition put: forward so ably by my colleague frorn S~.

Mary's -The Capes in support oF the moiddle distance fishing efFort, and part.icu1arly the lnidci1E! dis t:anu• f l e e t , t. h e b o a t s IJ..J h j c h a I" e o IAI n e cl by Lh'" Province. With the extst.ing crisis in l:.he Fishe:'ry, iF therE! E!VE!r' IAk\S a l:.ilnt:• when the Province should be holding onto those particular No. 1 8 (Aft.el"noon) r~ 3 s

vessels it is now, unl1~ss tAJhat. we have hE!ard OVE!l" the last felAJ months has j us t been 1 i p service to the effect and the point of view that has been expressed by many, not only in thE! ProvinCE!, but in Atlantic Canada and, as well, by some Ministers in the Federal Government about underutilized species.

Now, in order to reduce sorne oF the very ser·ious impacts that we tAJil1 SE!I'::~ over the next year or so with regards to the fisheries crisis, these vessels cou1d be, certain1y, uti1ized and harvesting capabi1:ity put in place to harvest sorne of these species that have been ta1kE!d about now for· a nurnb~C! r' of years but nothing has ever been done about. I as lAJell hav1:> a vei"Y deep interest in this particu1ar Middle Distance Fleet.

Not only because the fleet lAJas put into existE•nCE! and build when we were in Government, but because a large number oF people from the Burin Peninsula were crewing those p~'lrticular boat:s. And, oF coui"SE•, as a conseqUE!nce of the acUon of the quota brdnq t.ak'''n atAJay these peop1E!, some of t~hE!ITI or· a Jai"~JC! number of them, have become unemployed. They have had d iff i c u 1 ties with Fed E:' I" a 1 fish in that they wanted to go to different sized boats dnd they have had serious problems being allowed to do that.

Only a few days ago I had a conversation with the Member for Plac(~nt.ta lAJho had gone thi"Ough a very similar situation with one or two of his fishermen out there, not because of moving from the middle distance to other boats, but because they wanted to move from one size to the oth1~r, so it has bE>E!n a VE!ry cornplE!X probJ E•rn. And I l:hink l:he Province - and I L.39 April 5, 1990 Vol XI ... T have said publicly over Uw last few months - are making a very serious mistake in selling off those Midd1r:' DistanCE! boat.s. NotAl I see a sort of reversal or a turn in the opinion of thE!

Provinci.al Gover·nrnent that we haVE! heard over the last few weeks, and we have seen a Member on the other side rise and present a r-esolution, actually, calling For the Middle Distance effort to be maintained by the Province. So, as