Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 37 (39th Legislature, 3rd Session)

39-3-37

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LXI No. 37 - 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, May 6, 2009 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BLAIKIE, Bill, Hon. Elmwood N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon.

Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P.

MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MARCELINO, Flor Wellington N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin Southdale N.D.P. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P.

STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WHITEHEAD, Frank The Pas N.D.P. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

1697 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, May 6, 2009 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYER ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Parkland Regional Authority–Ambulance Station Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The communities of Eddystone, Bacon Ridge and Ebb and Flow First Nation rely on emergency medical services personnel based in Ste. Rose, which is about 45 minutes away. Mr. Speaker, these commu nities represent about 2,500 people.

Other communities of similar size within the region are equipped with at least one ambulance, but this area is not. As a result, residents must be transported in private vehicles to the nearest hospital if they cannot wait for emergency personnel to arrive. There are qualified first responders living in these communities who want to serve the region but need an ambulance to do so. A centrally-located ambulance and ambulance station in this area would be able to provide better and more responsive emergency services to these communities.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Minister of Health (Ms. Oswald) to consider working with the Parkland Regional Health Authority to provide a ce ntrally-located ambulance and station in the area of Eddystone, Bacon Ridge and Ebb and Flow First Nation. This petition is signed by Sheila Whitford, Wayne Thompson, Alison Mousseau and many, many other fine Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Long-Term Care Facilities–Morden and Winkler Mr.

Peter Dyck (Pembina): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition. Many seniors from Morden and Winkler are currently patients in Boundary Trails Health Centre while they wait for placement in local personal care homes. There are presently no beds available for these patients in Salem Home and Tabor Home. To make more beds in the hospital available, the regional health authority is planning to move these patients to a personal care home in outlying regions.

These patients have lived, worked and raised their families in this area for most of their lives. They receive care and support from their family and friends who live in the community, and they will lose this support if they are forced to move to distant communities. These seniors and their families should not have to bear the consequences of the provincial government's failure to en sure there are adequate personal care home beds in the region. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Minister of Health (Ms.

Oswald) to ensure that patients who are awaiting placement in a personal care home are not moved to distant communities. To urge the Minister of Health to consider working with the RHA and the community to speed construction and expansion of long-term care facilities in the region. This is signed by Margaret Klassen, Abe Wall, C. Toews and many, many others. Traffic Signal Installation–PTH 15 and Highway 206 Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition:

1698 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2009 In August 2008, the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Lemieux) stated that traffic volumes at the intersection of PTH 15 and Highway 206 in Dugald exceeded those needed to warrant the installation of traffic signals. Every school day, up to a thousand students travel through this intersection in Dugald where the lack of traffic signals puts their safety at risk. Thousands of vehicles travel daily through this intersection in Dugald where the lack of traffic signals puts at risk the safety of these citizens.

In 2008, there was a 300 percent increase in accidents at this intersection. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Transportation consider the immediate installation of traffic signals at the intersection of PTH 15 and Highway 206 in Dugald. To request that the Minister of Transportation recognize the value of the lives and well-being of the students and citizens of Manitoba. Signed by Colleen Carswell, Eva Prysizney, Nancy Garand and many, many other Manitobans. Seven Oaks Hospital–Emergency Services Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: The current Premier (M r. Doer) and the NDP government are reducing emergency services at the Seven Oaks Hospital. On October 6, 1995, the NDP introduced a matter of urgent public importance that stated that "the ordinary business of the House to be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely the threat to the health-care system posed by this government's plans to limit emergency services in the city of Winnipeg community hospitals." Mr.

Speaker, on December 6, 1995, when the then-PC government suggested it was going to reduce emergency services at the Seven Oaks Hospital, the NDP leader then asked Premier Gary Filmon to "reverse the horrible decisions of his government and his Minister of Health and reopen our community-based emergency wards." The NDP gave Manitobans the impression that they supported Seven Oaks Hospital having full emergency services seven days a week, 24 hours a day We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Premier of Manitoba consider how important it is to have the Seven Oaks Hospital provide full emergency services seven days a week, 24 hours a day.

T h i s i s s i g n e d b y M . O l a e s , M . O l a e s a n d F. Olaes and many, many other fine Manitobans. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): I'd like to table the following Supplementary Information for Legislative Review: the '09-10 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Manitoba Civil Service Commission, as well as the Manitoba Enabling Appropriations and Other Appropriations, as well as the Manitoba Employee Pensions and other Costs. * (13:40) MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Faron Hall Hon.

Eric Robinson (Minister of Culture, Heritage, Tourism and Sport): Yes, I have a statement for the House, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it is with the deepest respect and gratitude that I welcome to the House a man who has captured the imagination and admiration of all Manitobans in recent days by risking his own life to save another. Mr. Faron Hall is here, and I also want to acknowledge Mr. Wayne Spence, who was with Mr. Hall at the time of his brave act. I invited Mr.

Hall to the Legislature today because I believe Manitobans owe him a debt of gratitude, not only for saving a young man's life but for reminding us all of the spirit that has shaped this great province, a spirit that puts humanity first and makes Manitoba such a fine place to live. In carrying out this heroic rescue without hesitation, Mr. Hall has challenged perceptions and forced us all to confront our prejudices, compelled us to look past tired stereotypes and easy associations, to consider the content of his character and the true value and worth of all Manitobans.

May 6, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1699 Thanks to his selfless act of heroism, we now recognize Mr. Hall's face, a face that has come to symbolize courage, compassion and humility. But, sadly, Mr. Hall is also the face of homelessness, poverty and addiction, a face that many of us don't want to face ourselves because there are no quick fixes or easy answers to the problems it represents. But, as Mr.

Hall so clear ly demonstrates, there's always a story behind the face, and it's a story worth hearing, a story not only of pain, fear and despair, but also one of love, resilience and hope, a story that serves as the path to understanding. But it shouldn't take an extraordinary act of bravery for us all to seek that path. The Dakota people have traditionally looked to Wakan Tanka or the Great Spirit for guidance. Like the Creator in many of our world's religions, Wakan Tanka relies on people like Faron Hall to carry out important work here on Mother Earth. I firmly believe it was no accident that Mr.

Hall found himself at the right place at the right time to do what he did. He was there to save a life and, in doing so, has touched so many others. I also believe we are all capable of embodying the Great Spirit in our everyday lives. It doesn't have to be through a courageous rescue on the Red River. It can be as simple as treating a fellow human being with dignity and respect when you pass him on the street. The reason we as Manitobans thrive here at Manito Ahbee, where the Spirit lives, is because we take care of each other.

But we must not forget that those who are struggling de serve our respect and our understanding. One of our most disadvantaged citizens has shown us by example how to treat one another and we must follow his lead. So to you, Mr. Hall, on behalf of the Province of Manitoba, for saving the life of a young man and reminding us the Great Spirit lives in all of us, for being the face of courage, humility and compassion that makes this province great, I say to you: Wopida, meegwetch, mahseecho, ekosani, Thank you. [applause] Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, it's with great pride that on behalf of the Progressive Conservative caucus, I rise today to congratulate a humble Winnipeg man named Faron Hall, who demonstrated remarkable courage on Sunday as he rescued a teenaged boy who fell off the Provencher Bridge and into the frigid Red River. Faron Hall is one of Winnipeg's unfortunate citizens who is without a place to call home. He has said he doesn't want the hero treatment or even to be labelled a hero. He simply wants better treatment for the homeless people in this province. We couldn't agree more with Faron.

We thank him for bringing this issue to the forefront in our province, and for reminding all of us that the worth of a human being is not attached to an address or a status but to our virtues within. Mr. Speaker, we know many people in this province who are homeless suffer from disabilities of one form or another, but they deserve our support, compassion and commitment. Faron has asked all of us not to judge people who lack the comforts of a home but, rather, to support them, and today I challenge all political parties to work toward helping and supporting the homeless people in our province. Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to thank Faron, and, of course, Wayne Spence, who was with him at the time of his brave act and assisted him, for being a great example of courage for ever yone in our city and our province. I would like to again commend him for his bravery. Thank you. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to speak to the minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? [Agreed] Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to join other members of this Assembly, on behalf of the Liberal caucus, to say thank you to Faron Hall and to recognize that everybody, no matter what their condition may be, has talents. Faron Hall has demonstrated to us that he has some extraordinary talents in spite of the fact that he's had some significant challenges from time to time.

I think it is perhaps significant in this year, when we have had to deal with so much problems with the flood and with water, to have Faron Hall show us in an outstanding fashion how individuals can triumph over the challenges of rivers like the Red River and to challenges of circumstance where a young fellow ended up in the river, and Faron Hall was there with character, with incredible determination and with talent and ability to come to the rescue. So, I say, thank you, Faron Hall, as the others do. Let us remember today and continually that when we meet somebody on the street who has had

1700 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2009 difficult circumstances that they, too, have talents and deserve respect for they, too, are people like all of us. Thank you. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: I'd like to draw the attention of honourable members to th e Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us today Mr. Faron Hall, who is the guest of the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism (Mr. Robinson). On behalf of all honourable members, I'd like to welcome you here today.

Also in the public gallery we have with us from Neepawa Area Collegiate 25 grade 9 students under the direction of Michelle Young. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Ste. Rose ( Mr. Briese). Also in the public gallery we have from Ashern Central School 25 grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Paul Armitage. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Interlake (Mr. Nevakshonoff). Also in the public gallery from Kelvin High School we have 30 grade 9 students under the direction of Jerry Banner.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you all here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Provincial Debt Repayment Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Firstly, we'd like to thank the minister for the very strong and powerful comments, as well as the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Hawranik) and the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) for their comments as well, but, most particularly, Mr. Hall for his outstanding example for all Manitobans. Thank you. Mr.

Speaker, in speaking to Manitobans, we know that there's a great le vel of anxiety today about the current state of people's finances and their jobs. Many Manitobans are concerned about the state of their jobs, and others who are approaching retirement are concerned about the im pact of the decline in markets on their ability to make ends meet as they face retirement. Mr.

Speaker, we understand that measures are called for in order to meet these short-term concerns, but many Manitobans are expressing to us concern that Bill 30 goes well beyond what is required or called for, goes well beyond what was even in the budget in terms of piling the debt onto Manitobans at a rate faster than they can pay it off. At $21 billion, or $20,000 for every person in Manitoba, our debt today is higher than is the combined debt of Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia.

Against that backdrop, the government proposes to give themselves the ability to make no repayment on the debt for a period of three years; as I said, well beyond the budget and well beyond what most Manitobans would expect in terms of meeting present needs without cr eating an unnecessary burden on the next generation of Manitobans. In light of that, Mr. Speaker, will the Premier reverse his Finance Minister's terrible decision to stop repayment on Manitoba's credit card for the next three years? * (13:50) Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, the decision on the budgetary situation of the government of Manitoba, that decision will be made by members of this Legislat ure. There is a budget in the Chamber. Members opposite, as they usually do, almost like Pavlov's dog, they vote against the measure. We put forward a positive agenda in the budget. We are one of two provinces under GAAP financial budgeting that is balanced this year. We think that's very positive.

We note last year many provinces in '08-09 fell into a deficit situation and, so far, our projections are, even with year-end, that we're going to do modestly well in terms of the fiscal situation in Manitoba. We chose to reduce, not eliminate the debt payment. On top of balancing the budget, we chose to reduce the debt payment, but we chose also to increase the infrastructure spending. Members opposite should know that there are tens of millions of dollars more in our highways budget. Members opposite should know there is money with the federal and provincial governments to go to the inland port.

Members should know there's money in the budget for the Selkirk treatment plant. Members should know that there's new modernization for the airport in Brandon. Members should know there's a new recreation centre being expanded in the city of

May 6, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1701 Portage, so the Portage Terriers can win the championship from that new arena down the road. Members opposite should know that we are building a better Manitoba by investing in colleges, university colleges in the north. So we have choices to make. We're balancing the budget, spending more on the stimulus package, as called on by their federal cousins in Ottawa. We think that that call for a federal stimulus is sensible. Some provinces are spending money on infrastructure with debt.

We 're fortunate enough to do so by just reducing, partially, the debt payment in Manitoba in this budget, Mr. Speaker. Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, with the amount of waste and mismanagement already undertaken by this government and the amount of waste planned in terms of $640 million on a hydro line to nowhere and many other examples, Manitobans are asking why it is that this government can't find one-half of 1 percent in order to send a signal that they're going to stick to their debt repayment plan.

Contrary to what the Premier says, this Bill 30 doesn't require any repayment on Manitoba's debt for the next three years. It goes beyond the budget. It goes beyond what they voted on even seven months ago. Seven months ago, every one of the NDP members stood up and voted in favour of a $110-million-a-year debt repayment. Five months ago, five months ago, after the financial crisis started, the Premier got up and he made the comment that he's committed to a $110-million-a-year debt repayment. And here we are five weeks after the budget, Mr. Speaker, and they've reneged on those commitments.

They've backtracked on what was in the budget, and they are goi ng to leave a legacy of more debt for the next generation of Manitobans, debt that will have to be paid off by working longer hours for less pay and by having to make do with less. We support doing things that provide help for Manitobans today but not at the expense of the next generation that will repay this record debt with interest, when the interest rates are going up. Mr.

Speaker, yesterday when we asked the question, rather than dealing with the issue, the Premier tried to portray those who are in favour of debt repayment as extremists, but his own government's pre-budget polling campaign that they launched with taxpayers' dollars showed that 54 percent of Manitobans who had an opinion on the issue said it was wrong to slow down debt repayment in Manitoba. Fifty-four percent of Manitobans said it was wrong to slow down debt repayment. They oppose this policy. Why is he calling 54 percent of Manitobans extremists?

Will he apologize to them for calling them extremists but, more importantly, will he apologize for saddling them with unnecessary debt? Mr. Doer: The man from one-half of one percent is up again today in his extremist views on the future of Manitoba. We already dealt with all these out-of-date and factually incorrect

preambles yesterday in the first question. I want to point out to the member opposite, he may believe a transmission line is a transmission line to nowhere. That's what I would expect from a Conservative, because there were no transmission lines. There were no dams. They were nowhere on building Hydro because they wanted to sell it. There is a transmission line for the reliability of Winnipeg. That's not nowhere; that's to southern Manitoba for all of the citizens of Winnipeg. He may call Winnipeg nowhere. We call that a significant community. There's a transmission line to Minnesota.

He once said that the deal we had with Minnesota was written on the back of an envelope. He hasn't apologized for that factual error. There's a transmission line to Minnesota. That's not nowhere. That's millions of people, Mr. Speaker, buying our power. There's going to be a transmission line to Wisconsin. That's not nowhere. That's the future. The future is building, not the past of going nowhere with Conservatives, Mr. Speaker. Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, he's going to build a transmission line with 400 extra kilometres in it, which is going to cost upwards of 50 megawatts of line loss a year.

That could have gone towards shutting down a coal-fired plant in Wisconsin or Minnesota. That's what we would have done, shut down the coal plant in Wisconsin and Minnesota and not waste hundreds of millions of dollars in electricity by building a power line that's 400 kilometres too long and $640 million more than it needs to be. Mr. Speaker, the Premier said only five months ago that he was committed to a $110-million debt repayment this year. He's now calling that an extremist position.

1702 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2009 I want to ask the Premier: Was he an extremist five months ago when he made that commitment, or is he just lousy at planning? Mr. Doer: I seem to recall that seven months ago, or in September, every national party was saying they were going to run a deficit. Obviously, the economy changed. Most provinces are running deficits in Canada. The members opposite voted against one of only two budgets, one of only two budgets in Canada that's balanced and still makes a payment– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Let's have a little decorum, please.

The honourable First Minister has the floor. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, they're voting against one of only two budgets in Canada that's balanced. Now, that's what I call extremist, the extremist position of members opposite. They are the one-half-of-one- percent party in Manitoba with their great, great stand that they're taking against putting money into infrastructure, against putting money into more doctors, against putting money into universities, against money-putting into rural Manitoba, against putting more money into agriculture, against putting money into the University College of the North.

They are the no party, the no party, the no party, and we're the can-do party, the can-do party and the can-do government, Mr. Speaker. Provincial Debt Repayment Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon West): I guess the can-do government includes the future of a vote tax. The can-do government includes the future of $13 million wasted on enhanced identification. Mr. Speaker, last fall the Minister of Finance, in Bill 38, presented a debt repayment of $110 million. Last month he reduced that repayment to $20 million in his own budget which those members voted for.

Now he is the sponsor of Bill 30 which reduces that payment to zero. Is the Finance Minister such a terrible manager that he cannot find a token amount of $20 million to fulfil his commitment to his own budget? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, there will be a $20-million payment for the general purpose debt. There will be a $136-million payment for the pension liability, which was never paid down by members when they were in government.

When you take the $136 million and the $20 million, you get $156 million which is double what they ever paid on the best day in the b e s t y e a r w h e n t h e y w e r e i n g o v e r n m e n t . S o w e ' r e doing twice as well there. In addition to that, we're paying another $135 million of debt down through amortization, and we're paying another $128 million of debt down through principal repayment. We have a total of $417 million of debt retirement payment in this budget, which is significantly more than $75 million. It's six times more than they ever paid on their best day. * (14:00) Mr. Borotsik: Mr.

Speaker, that's absolutely not true. Bill 30 does take the $20 million that was identified for debt repayment out of the budget. That's what we're talking about right now. I should also say that the debt will increase by $1.7 billion in this next year by debt that's going to be incurred by this government. So the repayments, if you're repaying $400 million and borrowing $1.7 billion, it doesn't calculate. Let's put this in proper perspective. This minister has revenue of $10.2 billion. He needs to find only $20 million to keep his own promise. That is two one-thousandths of a percent. Mr.

Speaker, let me give you some perspective: A family with after-tax income of $100,000 would have to come up with $200 to make a minimum payment on their credit card. Why can't he make his minimum payment on his credit card? Mr. Selinger: All the governments in the world have made a commitment to stimulating the economy at a time when consumer demand is significantly down, at a time when credit has shrunk and disappeared for the private sector in many cases or is only available at additional cost, very high cost. In a time of global recession, government has a responsibility to provide a stimulus to the economy.

This budget, on the incremental capital spending, will provide another 10,000 person years of employment. A recession starts for somebody when they lose their job. We are providing jobs for the two-thousandths of 1 percent that the member is concerned about. We get 10,000 person years of employment. Why is he voting against that?

May 6, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1703 Mr. Borotsik: Why is he not supporting his own budget? He made a commitment to Manitobans to put in $110 million back at Bill 38. He made a commitment to put in $20 million of debt repayment in his own budget. It's obvious the Finance Minister does not see debt retirement or a token debt retirement as a priority. The Minister of Science, Technology, Energy and Mines (Mr. Rondeau) continuously tells this House what a great financial planner he is.

Maybe the Finance Minister should ask his own minister for some help, because it's obvious he can't balance his own budget and he can't pay down his debt. Mr. Selinger: The member can do all the finger pointing he wants. We've had six credit-rating upgrades. We've addressed th e pension liability for a total of $136 million in this budget. In the 11 years the members were in office, how much money did they put towards the pension liability? Zero, not $1. We've done over $900 million of debt repayment including pension liabilities.

We add to that $20 million plus $136 million for the pension liability debt; we add another $135 million for debt through amortization; we add another $128 million for principal repayment of debt: $417 million of fiscal discipline and the members opposite are nitpicking for two– Mr. Speaker: Order. Manitoba Hydro Bipole III West-Side Cost Mr. Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, yet another prominent Manitoban has voiced his concern over this government's decision to blow hundreds of millions of dollars on the hydro west-side line.

Jim Collinson, former head of Parks Canada, in today's Free Press says, and I quote: "An east-side Bipole has appeal." Mr. Speaker, even more appealing is the fact that we'd have to borrow an extra $640 million for a west-side line. Given Bill 30 and the fact that we can't meet our current obligations, how can the minister justify running up our credit card debt even further? Hon.

Greg Selinger (Min ister charged with the administration of Th e Manitoba Hydro Act): The financial health of Manitoba Hydro with the debt equity ratio at 75-25 is significantly better than at any time when the members opposite were in office. The reality here, Mr. Speaker, is we are managing three types of risk with our hydro development. First, environmental risk: The east side is one of the only remaining intact boreal forests in North America, the larges t piece of intact boreal forest in North America and the second largest in the world. We have an obligation to protect that.

The second risk is the risk to Manitoba Hydro through reliability, which was never addressed in their office. We have to address that and, also, to protect our export markets worth $20 billion. We're going to protect those things. They can roll the dice if they're ever in office. I challenge them to say– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Cullen: Well, Mr. Speaker, for the minister's information, Mr. Collinson was a two-term president of the UNESCO World Heritage Site, and he can't understand what this government's thinking. I want to use a quote from Mr.

Collinson: One can only imagine the assault on logic that periodically takes place in the Manitoba Cabinet room. Here, after 10 years, and we have Bill 30. We can't even meet our debt obligations, Mr. Speaker, and now this government wants to borrow another $640 million for an ill-conceived west-side line. Where is the logic in that? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, I'm glad the member asked a question about public policy logic because there is a very clear logic. It's about managing risk to Manitoba.

The first risk to manage is to protect the intact boreal forest on the east side, an environmental risk which should be managed. There's a broad consensus throughout the entire world that this piece of boreal forest has unique qualities that need to be protected. That's risk No. 1. Risk No. 2 is to the local people. The local people have made it very clear that they're not happy with the transmission line going down the east side. They prefer a strategy of development on the east side which protects the ecological integrity of that side, which protects their cultural integrity.

The third risk we are managing is to Manitoba Hydro's reputation through its export revenues and through its increase in reliability. That's the logic. I would like the members opposite to refute that logic. Mr. Cullen: Mr. Speaker, the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro should have a look at a hydro map some day because there's a hydro line that runs

1704 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2009 halfway up to Gillam already. Also, he should talk to his Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation (Mr. Lemieux), because he's going to carve down the boreal forest putting up a road through there. Mr. Speaker, Mr. Collinson, who has done social and economic studies on hydro development, says a new look at Bipole III is warranted. Not only is a new look at Bipole III warranted, a new look at Bill 30 is also warranted. When will the minister use some logic and revisit Bill 30? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, we're prepared to be accountable for our public policy logic. We're prepared to demonstrat e that to all comers, Manitobans first and foremost, and to bond-rating agencies, and we're prepared to put our record up against anybody in terms of fiscal management in the province, one of only two provinces that have balanced the budget this year with $417 million of fiscal discipline. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. We need to hear the questions and the answers. Let's have some decorum. The honourable minister has the floor. Mr. Selinger: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I've dispensed with the fiscal discipline and the logic. Now, let me turn to the logic of protecting Manitoba Hydro. Three major risks: risks to reputation, export markets and reliability; risks to the culture and the people on the east side; and risks on the reliability side as well as risks to the environment. We're managing all three of those risks. You have a single focus. You have a single extreme focus in all cases, and in all cases, that single extreme focus has no support. Photo Radar Tickets Construction Zones Mr.

Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): The Minister of Justice has now had a couple of days to reconsider a decision that he made to keep money that law-abiding citizens put out, paying for tickets that the court said they should never have had to pay for and never should have been issued. The minister has had many, many e-mails, and I know I've been copied on many of them as well, Mr. Speaker.

He's received correspondence from a 54-year-old grandmother who was given a ticket on Thanksgiving Day who couldn't get time off work to fight the ticket and an e-mail from a mother whose son was a new university graduate who couldn't afford to miss time away from work to fight this ticket that he got in a construction zone where there were no workers. After reading these e-mails and many, many others, I wonder if the Minister of Justice can tell us today whether or not he's reversed his wrong-headed decision. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr.

Speaker, as the Minister of Justice, I have a duty to try to uphold both the letter and the

interpretation of the law as provided to us. Upon learning that there were some evidentiary issues, the Crown indicated they could not prosecute those particular tickets, an d, therefore, they were stayed based on evidentiary issues. Mr. Speaker, we've learned that there are approximately 60,000 tickets dealing with construction sites. We've asked the City today to stop using photo radar in construction sites. We've asked them to review and we're going to review and probably change the regulations to ensure that it's only safety, which was the reason that this Legislature brought in photo radar. * (14:10) Mr.

Goertzen: Well, I think we found out the real answer why the minister isn't going to change his mind, 60,000 people. What a cash grab that was for this government. According to a Freedom of Information request, at the end of this year there were outstanding court-ordered fines of $43 million in the province of Manitoba, $43 million of unpaid court-ordered fines in this province. Up until this week, most Manitobans would have probably looked at this and said that people were wrong for not paying their fines.

Now they might look at it a little bit differently because under this Minister of Justice, the only way you can get your money back if a law is overturned or struck down is to not pay that fine. How is it that he isn't going to go after the $43 million of unpaid fines and yet he won't return the money to the 60,000 or so people who got tickets who should never have gotten those tickets in the first place? Mr. Chomiak: As usual, the member is wrong. Even in the information I provided, we found out that there are 60,000 tickets issued, not 60,000 individuals, Mr. Speaker.

May 6, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1705 We've asked the City to stop using photo radar in construction zones. We've asked the City to look at the regulation, and we're going to review the regulation to ensure that the intent of the legislation, which all members agreed, was that it be safety, and, thirdly, we're going to sit down with the City and look at the issue of retroactivity. It is very clear, Mr. Speaker, that the credibility of photo radar and use by the City is on the line, because it appears–and I have to admit it appears to the public that it looks more like a fine and a cash issue– Mr.

Speaker: Order. Mr. Goertzen: This is an issue of cash for the government. For us, it's an issue of fairness. A court said that these tickets should never have been issued for individuals who were driving in construction zones where there were no construction workers present. This is a Minister of Justice who sits on $43 million of unpaid court-ordered fines. This is a Minister of Justice who is spending $13 million on an enhanced driver's licence system and he can't even give those away.

Instead of having $43 million sitting there in unpaid fines, $13 million for a licence he can't give away, why doesn't he go after those individuals, cancel the other program and give the money back to the individuals who should never have gotten those tickets in the first place? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the fines from the tickets go to the City of Winnipeg, which is a separate entity. There are also resources that go to the Justice Department for court costs, et cetera, and administration, and that's true. I have said, Mr.

Speaker, the credibility of photo radar, particularly in construction sites, is a problem now in the perception of the public and we have to solve that. If we have to change the legislation, we'll do it and we're going to sit down with the City who administered the program– An Honourable Member: Put up the signs. Mr. Chomiak: –who administered the program and ensure they put up the signs, Mr. Speaker, and we're going to try to get back to the original intent of photo radar which was safety an d not for generating funds. That's where we're going to go. Health-Care Services Health-Care Aide Vacancies Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, 1,471 doctors have left Manitoba under the NDP and Manitoba is short almost 1,300 nurses under the NDP. Now, health-care aide vacancies have skyrocketed under the NDP. So I would like to ask the Minister of Health: How could she have allowed health-care aide vacancies to double under her watch? Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, of course, le t's clarify some facts for the members of this House in Manitoba because they have been presented in an unfactual way.

Of course, Manitobans are interested most clearly in the net increase of health providers to our front line. We know that virtually every year in the 1990s, we saw a net decrease in the number of doctors. Since 1999, we've had a net increase every year. We're now at a net increase of 288 doctors. Further, Mr. Speaker, we know that we have seen a net increase in the number of nurses in Manitoba, with numbers posted just recently to show we had 245 net new nurses in Manitoba. That brings our total in Manitoba to over 2,000 nurses.

Again, for every one that they fired during their time in office, we brought two back. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, we're talking about health-care aides that have doubled under the watch of this government. Health-care aides are support staff to nurses in hospitals and personal care homes. There is a shortage of over 700 health-care aides, and they can't blame this one on the Tories. This is happening under their watch. So, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health to explain why she has failed to ensure that nurses have these much needed health-care workers there to support them in their work every day. Ms. Oswald: Well, Mr. Speaker, it's my absolute pleasure to talk to the members opposite anytime that they want to about bringing health professionals to the front line. They made decisions during the last recession that included cutting the spaces in medical school. They made decisions to fire a thousand nurses and, of course, they made the other decision to freeze health capital.

I can let the member know that according to the 2008 Manitoba Nursing Labour Market Supply, we are aware that the report sh ows that we have created

1706 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2009 an additional 3,403 nursing positions, which includes health-care aides, because they are very important to nurses on the front line. That's since the year 2000, and we have filled more than 80 percent of those positions, Mr. Speaker. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, the spin machine is certainly at work across the way. Mr. Speaker, it is this same report that she was just referring to that shows that we have over 700 vacancies of health-care aides. This is under her watch, and it is at an all-time high in 10 years. Mr.

Speaker, a health-care aide in The Pas recently said, because of the shortage there, patients are not being turned and they are getting bed sores. So while the minister might like to stand up here and do all kinds of spinning, the fact is patients do not get good care when you have a shortage of 700 health-care aides, a nursing shortage of almost 13. So I'd like to ask this Minister of Health: Why has she failed again? Why is she so incompetent in keeping her commitment to Manitobans? Ms. Oswald: Mr. Speaker, let's be very, very clear, that health-care aides' positions filled are up.

In the year 2000, we had some 6,200 positions; in the year 2008, 7,300 positions. Health-care aide positions are up. Let's make one other point, and it's not a small one. Members opposite, from time to time, get up and crow about a particular vacancy rate that may have existed during their time. Guess what? When you eliminate all the positions that you can think of eliminating, there aren't va cancies. Not so sure they should be bragging about that. Lake Dauphin Fishery Government Strategy Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr.

Speaker, we've seen another season of mismanagement and half-baked solutions to the crisis on the Lake Dauphin walleye fishery. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Water Stewardship (Ms. Melnick) said in Estimates that another $10,000 was spent this year on the development of a co-management plan for the fishery. That brings the total expenditure over nine years on this plan to approximately half a million dollars, but we still haven't seen a copy of the plan. Mr.

Speaker, will the minister commit today to putting a co-management plan in place prior to the next walleye spawning season on Lake Dauphin and its tributaries? Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): Mr. Speaker, we have worked very hard with the chiefs and councils and the West Region Tribal Council on a co-management agreement. We've committed to do that. We're still committed to doing it. We will do that on an ongoing basis. But let's be very clear. As opposed to their approach, we actually did consult on a closure on the tributaries.

We put a real closure in place and we really did enforce it, unlike what we've seen in the past from our friends across the way. * (14:20) Mr. Briese: Mr. Speaker, rather than trying to conserve the fish in the first place, the government's emphasis has been on the harvested end instead. For example, the Minister of Water Stewardship is spending between $55,000 and $70,000 to supply frozen fish fillets to fishers during parts of closure. She wouldn't need to do this if she had properly protected the fish stocks years ago. Mr.

Speaker, I ask: Is this action going to become one of the long-term solutions to the crisis in this fishery, or is it just another Band-Aid political decision made on the spur of the moment? Hon. Christine Melnic k (Minister of Water Stewardship): Well, again, Mr. Speaker, it is a shame that members opposite see no benefit in working with the local community. We know they didn't consult when they put out a press release for a closure in 1999 and did absolutely nothing. Six thousand pounds of fish were taken.

We wanted to make sure that we did a complete consultation, that we were aware that this may cause hardship on some of the most vulnerable people in the province, Mr. Speaker. So we worked with the community and we provided sustenance so that families would not go without while they respected the closure. I would like to thank the people in the area who respected the closure, who came and very peacefully partook of the fish that was offered.

I also want to make sure that the House k nows that the fish that is remaining is being distributed through the Dauphin Indian and Métis Friendship Centre for all the families in the area, Mr. Speaker.

May 6, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1707 Mr. Briese: Mr. Speaker, the only sustenance around here is political sustenance for a government that's failed to protect the fish stocks. The minister's actions are akin to surrounding the last buffalo herd and driving it off a cliff. When the walleye are gone, they're gone. There won't be any for sustenance. There won't be any for commercial fishers. There won't be any for recreational fishers. Anytime Lake Dauphin walleye are taken pre-spawn, it is wrong. It threatens the long-term viability of the fishery for all users.

It's time for the minister to stop playing politics, do the right thing and conserve the fishery. Mr. Speaker, will the minister commit to a full closure on Lake Dauphin and its tributaries next year? Ms. Melnick: Well, Mr. Speaker, again, instead of relying on political rhetoric and non-action at the political level, we rely on science. We relied on the science that was presented by the department. We respected the science that was presented by the department.

The member, two weeks ago in this House, tabled pieces of the document that we used to go out on consultation that showed that we needed to bring in a closure this year. The science told us we needed to bring in the closure on the two main tributaries, with limited fishing of six fish per day on the other tributaries. That's what we did, Mr. Speaker. Again, it's a shame that members opposite don't agree that we should work with the community to make sure that hardship is not visited on the people who are respecting the closure. Health-Care Services Hospital Midwife Availability Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, in the last 10 years, we've all witnessed the NDP government double the cost of health care, while at the same time one questions in terms of the services that are being delivered in our community hospitals, and we see the burgeoning huge increases of bureaucracy and funding thereof. We in the Liberal Party want to give the Minister of Health an idea. The idea is why not allow our community hospitals to provide births by allowing a midwifery program at each one of our community hospitals. Hon.

Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): On the subject of providing a variety of options for maternal care, we are working with the midwives and with the regional health authority, in particular in the development of the south-end birthing centre that we committed to. It's going to be a very important project.

We know that we're going to continue to work with families in meeting their maternal care needs, as we're going to continue to work with our community hospitals: Concordia, in continuing to develop its centre of excellence in or thopedics; at Victoria, continuing to work to build on their new oncology program; at Seven Oaks, with their fantastic new ER; and at Grace Hospital, with the work that we're doing with clinical assistants in the emergency room. We're expanding. That's where we're spending our money. We call it an investment. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, the minister might call it investment.

We call it a reduction in services. It was the NDP that closed obstetrics, whether it's in Seven Oaks Hospital, the Victoria Hospital and I even believe the Concordia Hospital. Here we're coming up with a viable alternative that could really put some value back into our community hospitals. It'll only cost a fraction of what you're spending on the bureau cracy, and that is to provide parents the option of having their children or babies inside our community hospitals; nothing wrong with developing a midwifery program that would enable babies to be born in community hospitals.

Will the government commit to at least look at the idea with the possibility of bringing it in sometime in the next year? Ms. Oswald: Again, the member opposite is putting his judgment ahead of medical doctors. We know that decisions about obstetrics, we know decisions about cardiac care consolidation, those recom- mendations were made by medical individuals. We're not going to substitute the judgment of politicians for medical individuals like th e member did recently in talking about bringing cardiac surgery back to community hospitals, directly against the recommendation of Dr.

Koshal and, indeed, the Leader of the Liberal Party. And, further, Mr. Speaker, we're speaking with midwives and regions in improving maternal care. This may come as a shock to the member opposite

1708 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2009 but, in fact, many women want to seek the care of a midwife because they don't want to go to a hospital. Mr. Lamoureux: M r . S p e a k e r , i t m i g h t c o m e a s a shock to the Minister of Health that people are not seeing the types of benefits that they should be seeing, given the amount of money that you're spending in the Department of Health. You've doubled the cost of health care in the province of Manitoba in nine to 10 years, Madam Minister. What people want to see is they want to see results. They want to be able to have the option.

Why not provide the option to being able to have babies in our community hospitals? There is nothing wrong with providing that option. It's a valid idea and it is something that will work. You can get the professionals that will agree to it. My question to the minister is: Why will she not reverse some of those horrible decisions that she's made, and this NDP have made, in the past and accept this as a good idea? Ms. Oswald: Well, first of all, Mr. Speaker, he makes reference to–or claims, untrue claims, of course, that we're not getting more for money that we're investing.

In the money that we're investing in health care, we know we have 288 more doctors in Manitoba. We know that we welcomed the biggest medical school class ever with 110 students. We know that we have over 2,000 more nurses working in Manitoba than we did in 1999. We know we've brought down wait times for lifesaving surgery, like cancer and cardiac. We know that Manitoba has hip and knee wait times that are down 66 percent since 2005. We know that ultrasound wait times have been cut. We know that we're home to the first Gamma Knife. We're going to be home to the first CyberKnife.

The list goes on and on, and the investments go on and on, and the member is just wrong again. Eating Disorders Treatment Community-Based Programs Ms. Erna Braun (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, eating disorders have the highest mortality rate of all other mental illnesses. They affect every age group of both men and women across the province. Given this week is Mental Health Week, I want to ask the Minister of Healthy Living: What has been done to further assist those who suffer from eating disorders? Hon.

Kerri Irvin-Ross (Minister of Healthy Living): Yesterday, I was joined here at the rotunda with the Member for Fo rt Rouge (Ms. Howard) talking with community activists as well as survivors and parents of men and women dealing with eating disorders in Manitoba. Yesterday, we were proud to announce the first ever community-based program for eating disorders in Manitoba. This community-based program will provide individual and group support to survivors, as well as support to their families, Mr. Speaker.

This community-based initiative will be run by a multidisciplinary team that will include a nurse practitioner, a psychologist, a mental health clinician. With these supports, it will make a difference for all Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: Time for oral questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Wendy MacDonald Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I rise today to congratulate Wendy MacDonald, founder of The Horse Connection in Charleswood, on being the 2009 recipient of the Royal Bank Local Hero Award. She was presented with the award at the Volunteer Dinner and Awards at the Convention Centre on Wednesday, April 22.

I recently had an opportunity to visit The Horse Connection at WW Stables on McCreary Road. This program provides instruction and coaching for at-risk youth on horsemanship. Pembina Trails School Division currently sends 16 students to participate in this program for the fall and spring sessions. This is an innovative and amazing program, and it is the only such program in Manitoba. It was amazing to watch the kids' faces light up when performing required tasks. This feeling of accomplishment will do a lot towards keeping these students engaged and in school.

After a pilot project which began six years ago, there have been 70 students who have benefited from the program. The program is all about intervention and prevention, reaching out to students before a cycle of events and poor decisions lead them down a negative life path. The success of this program is evident when you see the results. Last year, two of the grade 9 students volunteered at that program. One of these students chose to use pictures from the classes for a school PowerPoint project. The ultimate intention of these

May 6, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1709 classes is to keep more at-risk students in school. Schools and students alike rave about the impact that The Horse Connection's Therapeutic Riding Intervention Program has on students' positive growth and development. This program depends on volunteers to fundraise, design a Web site, develop a brochure and logo, as well as be volunteer leaders, assistants and board members. Wendy MacDonald, the current volunteer president of The Horse Connection, is doing a wonderful job, and I must commend her dedication and hard work.

She is truly a local hero and important to our community. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. * (14:30) Canadian Red Cross 100th Anniversary Hon. Nancy Allan (Min ister of Labour and Immigration): Friday, May 8, the Canadian Red Cross and the Winnipeg Senior Citizens Radio Club will be hosting an open house event to celebrate Red Cross Day and 100 years of the Canadian Red Cross. On May 19, 1909,

an act of Parliament paved the way for the Canadian Red Cr oss to serve Canadians. Mr. Speaker, 2009 is the 100th year of this great organization. The Red Cross is Canada's national organization that focusses on delivering humanitarian assistance in improving the lives of vulnerable people. In Manitoba, we have been the beneficiaries of this organization many times, and, most recently, this year, during the flood. The Red Cross helped people evacuate their homes and are currently helping people recover from flood damage. The Winnipeg Senior Citizens Radio Club was formed in 1982, and has been located in St.

Vital in the old fire hall at St. Mary's and St. Anne's Road for over 20 years. The purpose of the club is to establish, operate and maintain an amateur radio station and provide communication services to the community in emergencies through organizations such as the Red Cross, the Emergency Management Organization or to recognize non-profit organizations whose activities benefit the community such as the Girl Guides, Boy Scouts and the Manitoba Marathon. Together with the Manitoba regional Red Cross, the two organizations have decided to raise awareness of the Red Cross disaster management and amateur radio.

The open house will focus on how the Red Cross disaster management team works and how amateur radio communications assist in times of emergencies. I encourage all members of the House to make their way down to the old fire hall in St. Vital and learn about these two great organizations in our community. I congratulate the Red Cross on 100 years of great work and wish them 100 more. Olivia Gerula Mrs.

Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): It's with great pride that I rise today to congratulate Winnipeg's own, Olivia Gerula for winning the World Boxing Council's fe male super featherweight championship title in Edmonton last month. Olivia took the world title away from Edmonton's Jelena Mrdjenovich, scoring a unanimous 10-round decision over the reigning champ in her home town. The win was especially sweet for Olivia after losing to Jelena in a knockout match nearly five years ago. This time, however, Olivia was prepared.

The personal trainer and mother of two spent the past five years training and perfecting her fighting techniques, and she was more than ready to face her opponent in Edmonton's Shaw Conference Centre. Despite being the underdog, Jelena's record, that was the previous champ, was 23-3-1 before the fight to Olivia's 11-10-2. Olivia was hungry for the win. She took control early on and applied constant pressure throughout to bring down the reigning five-time champ. It is the first time since Donny Lalonde won the light heavyweight world title in 1987 that a Winnipegger has taken home a world boxing title.

Olivia has some time to celebrate her win with friends and family before preparing for the next fight which is tentatively scheduled on June 12 in France against current European champion, Myriam Chomaz. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to thank Olivia for being an ambassador for our great city and province, and I would like to, once again, congratulate her on this momentous win. Thank you. Healthy Horizons for Children and Families Ms. Jennifer Howard (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to honour an extraordinary couple who are making a positive difference in the lives of people

1710 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2009 here in Manitoba and half a world away in the Central American country of Honduras. Steve Malone and Sharon Creech are founders of a volunteer-run charity called Healthy Horizons for Children and Families. This grass-roots organization is working in the remote village of Jesus de Otoro and the surrounding areas in Honduras. They envision a transformation of the orphanage and medical clinic in Jesus de Otoro and are working with the local people to develop self-sustaining programs in education, health care and agriculture.

Healthy Horizons brings food and medical brigades into poverty-stricken areas and teaches the people there emergency medical care, CPR and first aid. Volunteers also work with the community to develop important preventative measures in health care. The donations and contributions received by Healthy Horizons enable Steve, Sharon and their volunteers to distribute medical equipment, vitamins and food to those that desperately need them.

During their most recent trip in February, Steve and Sharon brought with them an estimated $24,000 in medicine, vitamins and equipment and close to $4,000 in cash donations, which were used to purchase food for local residents. The compassion and dedication of this couple and their volunteers is making a big difference in the lives of Hondurans. I ask the House to join me in congratulating Healthy Horizons for Children and Families for the good work they continue to do and to wish Steve and Sharon a safe trip as they prepare for another visit to Honduras next November. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Darfur Petition Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, yesterday I received a petition from Ami Bakerman of Winnipeg Walk for Darfur. This petition calls attention to the present troubling situation in the Darfur region of the Sudan. It's signed by more than Manitobans. I'll read the petition. It says: We the undersigned residents of the province of Manitoba wish to bring to your attention Sudan's Omar al-Bashir has been charged with murder, rape, extermination, forcible transfer by the International Criminal Court for acts against the people of Darfur.

In response, Bashir has ordered the eviction of humanitarian groups like Doctors without Borders, OXFAM and Mercy Corps, threatening to worsen life for millions in Darfur. Therefore, we call upon the Canadian government to express support for an ICC process against Bashir that is robust, efficient and sensitive to its short-term impacts on civilians, to honour our commitments to UNAMID and to advocate for the mission's full deployment. For the ICC's work to be effective it must be supported by a robust peace process. Mr.

Speaker, as we are all aware, the people in the Darfur region are living in difficult times and have had troubles in that area for quite some time: severe difficulties in many ways and a lot of lives being lost, as well as a lot of crimes being perpetrated. We also, of course, need to be aware that there are other parts of Africa, particularly the Congo at the moment, where we should be paying attention because of similar major problems. Indeed, in my office this morning I talked to a Manitoban who came from the Congo and expressed his deep concerns on the situation there as well.

It's important for all of us to know what is happening in Darfur and in Congo and to push for more involvement of Canada and the international community to help in achieving long-run solutions which respect human rights and human dignity and which can lead to peaceful development in the years ahead in these regions. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon.

Steve Ashton (Deputy Government House Leader): I would like to ask if you would please canvass the House to determin e if there is agreement for the Estimates sequence to be changed so that the Estimates for Intergovernmental Affairs will be considered in the Chamber following the completion of the Estimates for Science, Technolo gy, Energy and Mines. Mr. Speaker: Is there agreement for the Estimates sequence to be changed so that the Estimates for Intergovernmental Affairs will be considered in the Chamber following the completion of the Estimates for Science, Technology, Energy and Mines? [Agreed]

May 6, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1711 Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, could you please dissolve the House into Committee of Supply. Mr. Speaker: The House will now resolve into Committee of Supply. Would the Chairs please go to the respective rooms where they will be chairing. In the Chamber will be Science, Technology; in Room 255 will be Conservation; and in Room 254 will be Health and Healthy Living. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH AND HEALTHY LIVING * (14:40) Madam Chairperson (Marilyn Brick): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Health and Healthy Living. We have one remaining resolution for this department. Resolution 21.1:

BE IT RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $12,834,000 for Health and Healthy Living, Administration, Finance and Accountability, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010. Resolution agreed to. This completes the Estimates of the Department of Health and Healthy Living. Thank you very much. The next set of Estimates to be considered by this

section of the Committee of Supply is the Department of Family Services and Housing. Shall we briefly recess to allow the ministers and critics the opportunity to prepare for the commencement of the next department? [Agreed] Thank you. Yes, we will recess. The committee recessed at 2:43 p.m. ____________ The committee resumed at 2:50 p.m. FAMILY SERVICES AND HOUSING Madam Chairperson (Marilyn Brick): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of the Department of Family Services and Housing. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Yes Madam Chairperson. This year's budget provides over $1.2 billion for the Department of Family Services and Housing, which is a net increase of $63.2 million, or 5.3 percent over the '08-09 adjusted vote.

A number of key areas for investment include the largest ever increa se in social housing investments; additional supports for low-income families and for persons with disabilities, including children with disabiliti es; as well as increased funding for child welfare, for child care, family violence and for the sexual exploitation strategy called Tracia's Trust. One of the major goals of the department is, of course, to reduce poverty and increase Manitoba's participation in the labour market in concert with other departments and agencies and, indeed, all Manitobans.

Since 1999, we've continued our commitment to reduce the effects of poverty. We continue to make important strides toward addressing low income in the province and supporting low-income individuals get access to employment and income assistance and to become self-sufficient. Over the past years, Manitoba's poverty rate has decreased dramatically. For example, between 2000 and 2006 there's been a 40 percent reduction in the child poverty rate using the market basket measure and, in 2006, Manitoba had the third-lowest poverty rate among the provinces for all persons as well as for children.

In 2006, Manitoba showed a decrease of approximately 19 percent in the incidence of poverty for all persons. The most recent market basket measure data shows that, in 2006, 10.8 percent of Manitobans were living below the market basket measure threshold. Clearly, this is not acceptable, and any decreases in the poverty rate are no consolation to a family or an individual struggling in poverty. There is much to do.

We have, however, in '08, increased shelter rates for single non-disabled adults living in private rental accommodation, equalizing the shelter rates between single non-disabled and disabled individuals. With the additional $35 a month directly from the shelter benefit, the shelter rate for a non-disabled single adult on income assistance increased to $320. Our room and board rates for individuals requiring care and supervision or living in residential care facilities

1712 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2009 also increased by 2 percent. Income assistance for persons with disabilities increased by $300 annually beginning in February of '08. Budget '09 has allowed us to increase board and room rates for individuals requiring care and supervision living with a relative from $441 to $566 a month, effective April 1. In this tight rental market, low-income people need help to pay for their rent and, to this end, we continue to make improvements to the Manitoba Shelter Benefit.

That's a monthly benefit for low-income families and eligible persons with disabilities and seniors who spend a large portion of their income on rent. A flat rate is also available to some persons receiving in come assistance who are not living in subsidized housing. In '08, the benefit, the shelter benefit, was extended to provide the flat rate benefit to non-disabled single adults and couples without children on income assistance.

In January '09, enhancements to the Manitoba Shelter Benefit were implemented to allow a higher income eligibility limit, an increase to the amount of rent that will be considered in the calculation of the benefit and an increase to the maximum monthly benefit. The Manitoba Shelter Benefit will further increase for all eligible disabled adults and non-disabled single adults and childless couples who are on income assistance. In 2010, the benefit will be further enhanced by adjusting the income and rent eligibility levels for those not on income assistance.

Affordable housing benefit for persons with a mental health disability will also be announced. Two years ago, we introduced Rewarding Work. It's an important element of the anti-poverty strategy of the Province. It's a four-year strategy to enhance opportunities for people receiving income assistance to participate in education and training and make it easier to work and succeed. Since then, the department has implemented many new initiatives aimed at helping people find and keep jobs.

At the end of its second year, there are early indications that Rewarding Work is making a difference in addressing the barriers to employment and the training needs of people on income assistance. The number of people working while on welfare is higher one year after their earnings exemption doubled.

Over 3,000 training plans have been approved for people on welfare to take a training or education program to help them find better jobs, and approximately 900 people on welfare are being supported by Job Connections and the marketability staff to get ready for employment or to succeed in an education or training program. In '09-10, the department will be partnering with Competitiveness, Training and Trade to take proactive measures to help workers displaced by the current economic downturn rebound. It will be a new element of Rewarding Work to provide a number of initiatives to assist workers in transition.

Affordable housing, of course, is an important step on the road to a productive and stable life. Our government continues to strive to provide housing at an affordable rent to individuals, seniors and families in need, supporting community-driven construction or renovation of affordable homes for lower-income Manitobans while other new investments are enhancing the existing public housing stock, homeless shelters and basic home repair.

The number of affordable housing units built has increased since 2000 and the number of affordable housing units renovated in Manitoba has increased, for example, from 196 in 2000 to 409 last year. Budget 2009 represents the largest increase in funding for social housing. In '09-10, $131.3 million in new Loan Act authorities being allocated to fund a number of other capital investment initiatives including $3 million to provide for the development of new social housing units in the north.

It's anticipated that the three projects in Brandon, Thompson and The Pas will each be 24 units in size for a total of 72 units. Of the 72 units, six will be fully accessible and the projects also include visitable units, Madam Chair.

Other investments include $23 million for the further development of Waverley West; $62.5 million for funding of the Manitoba Housing Renewal Corporation's modernization and improvement program to perform major refurbishments at Lo rd Selkirk Park, Gilbert Park, at two Central Park projects, one community in Brandon and four other rural housing communities in Neepawa, Dauphin, The Pas, and Swan River. There will also be a number of smaller-scale rejuvenation projects throughout the province.

In October '05, the government launched its Aging in Place policy and it was adopted as a central principle for the planning of all provincial government housing and long-term care initiatives. We're working hard to recognize that we have to better meet the need for affordable, accessible housing for persons with disabilities who have

May 6, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1713 complex health needs and require support services to live independently in the community. We have, since 1999, made services for persons with disabilities a priority area for the government. We have now put in place ministerial responsibility and, as well, under Full Citizenship, the Manitoba strategy, we've improved income assistance for persons with disabilities and work toward building public buildings and homes using the visitable design model.

In '08, a disability lens was announced to ensure that the impact of new government initiatives on persons with disabilities is assessed in advance by policy and program developers. Effective January '09, the primary caregiver tax credit is providing up to $1,020 a year to individuals who are primary caregivers for spouses, relatives, neighbours or friends whose needs are assessed at home care level 2 or higher, and we'll be increasing the mechanisms to ensure that that is truly accessible.

Participation activity limitation survey data for 2006 indicates that, in '99, 57.3 percent of Manitobans with disabilities were employed at some point during the year. By '06, this number rose to 65.8 percent. That puts Manitoba in second place in comparison to other provinces, but we must redouble our efforts. Therefore, in December of '07, we announced marketAbilities. That was a component of Rewarding Work to further assist Manitobans with disabilities get training and find jobs.

That includes the Personal Attendant Community Education program, the Sara Riel work placement force program, doubling the liquid asset exemptions and the marketAbilities team that provides intensive specialized services to persons with disabilities. We've increased the funding and this budget increases funding once again for the Supported Living Program. I believe that the funding has actually increased by over 200 percent since 1999. * (15:00) Children's Special Services gets increased funding with this budget as well.

In the area of child welfare, the Circle of Care campaign has been very successful in recruiting new foster beds as well as reducing very significantly the use of hotel rooms. The additional funding has been allocated for Child Protection which increases funding for workload, for child maintenance and family support services, for salaries, increase for funding for community agencies, effective July 1, and other funding to continue with the implementation of the Changes for Children initiative. The sexual exploitation strategy is getting an increase of $1.2 million for Tracia's Trust implementation in this budget.

As well, child care gets new funding for additional spaces– Madam Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable Member for River East, have an opening comment? Mrs. Bonnie Mitche lson (River East): I want to thank the minister for his opening statement, and say at the outset that I know he has a heavy workload with both the former Department of Family Services and the Housing. The combination is something I'm not sure should have happened.

I know there are lots of overlaps and lots of areas where housing and supports and services to people are critical to be co-ordinated, but I do know sometimes it doesn't allow the minister the ability to focus in any detail on any one area of the department because he has a pretty overwhelming workload. So I have to say to those that work in the Department of Family Services and Housing, I know it's an onerous task, and I know there's a lot of hard work and activity. There've been some good things that have happened.

There isn't any government that does everything right or everything wrong, so I do want to say at the outset. I have said this to the minister before, there are some areas where we believe there has been good progress and continued progress in the areas of support for people that are vulnerable in our community. The one area we have significant concern about is the whole area of child protection. I will be focussing a lot of my energy and my questions, over the next few days, in the child protection area. I don't want to say anything more at this point in time.

I think we want to get into the detail of the Estimates, and I certainly will have many questions for the minister as we move forward over the next few days. Thanks. Madam Chairperson: We thank the critic from the official opposition for those remarks. Under Manitoba practice, debate on the Minister's Salary is the last item considered for the department in the Committee of Supply. Accordingly, we shall now defer consideration of line item 9.1.(

a) and proceed with consideration of the remaining items referenced in Resolution 9.1.

1714 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2009 At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce the staff in attendance. Mr. Mackintosh: Staff will come to the table as their area comes up for questions. I'm joined by Martin Billinkoff, the Deputy Minister of Family Services and Housing, and Sheila Lebredt, who is the Assistant Deputy Minister of Finance and Administration. Madam Chairperson: Does the committee wish to proceed to the Estimates of this department chronologically or have a global discussion? Mrs.

Mitchelson: I think, if it's okay, we'd like to have a global discussion. We've done that in the past. I guess I might just seek a little bit of advice. I wanted to go through the human resources and the staffing component, and I'm wondering if I could sort of hop from area to area. Does that make sense, or do I need to do that as I'm asking questions on different branches? Madam Chairperson: I think, as the minister has indicated, that's fine with the minister.

So is it agreed that questioning for this department will follow in a global manner, with all resolutions to be passed once the questioning has been completed? [Agreed] The floor is now open for questions. Mrs. Mitchelson: I'll just sort of go through the Estimates book where I have some areas flagged, and we may get into a little more debate than just the staffing in these areas. The first area that I wanted to talk about was the Agency Accountability and Support Unit. Could the minister indicate–I see in the Estimates book that there are 12 FTEs in this year's budget.

Can I ask the minister who the Managerial staffperson is? Madam Chairperson: Just prior to recognizing the minister, could you tell us what page you're referencing, please? Mrs. Mitchelson: Page 39. Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, the unit is headed by Denise Koss; that's K-o-s-s. Mrs. Mitchelson: Can I ask the minister how long Denise Koss has been in that position? Mr. Mackintosh: I'm advised it was July of last year. Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Chair, can I ask who was in that position prior to Denise Koss? Mr. Mackintosh: Paul Cormier. Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Chair, how long was Paul Cormier in that position? Mr.

Mackintosh: I was advised he was in that position about two years. Mrs. Mitchelson: Can the minister just refresh my memory, because I know that the Agency Accountability and Support Unit came back into the department from the Department of Finance. I'm just wondering when that was. Mr. Mackintosh: It's my understanding that the unit didn't come from Finance; it was created from scratch. There may have been some persons that came to fill positions from some other departments, but it was a new creation following the review of the challenges at Hydra House. Mrs. Mitchelson: So what year was that? * (15:10) Mr.

Mackintosh: The creation was first announced in the fall of '04. Then it was later expanded, and it looks like in the '07-08 fiscal year. Mrs. Mitchelson: I think the expansion went from six employees to 12, if I'm correct. Mr. Mackintosh: I believe the original was five members, but whether that includes support staff is a question. Then it was increased to 12 FTEs. Mrs. Mitchelson: Are all those positions filled? Mr. Mackintosh: It's my understanding there are currently two vacancies. One's a mat leave, two vacancies. Mrs. Mitchelson: Has the unit ever been fully staffed? Mr.

Mackintosh: Yes, there's been approval to fill the vacant positions. The recollection of the ADM is that we may have been one short as a result of turnover over the years. Mrs. Mitchelson: I'm wondering if the minister and his staff could provide for me the names of the individuals that compose, I guess, the 10 FTEs that are Professional/Technical. I understand that there's one on mat leave, and there's one position that isn't filled, but could I possibly have the names of the other individuals and what responsibilities they would have? I know that there are many service

May 6, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1715 purchase agreements in the department and in different branches. I'm wondering if staff have responsibility for certain areas of the department. Mr. Mackintosh: So, aside from Ms. Koss, Marilyn McEachern, the senior business comptroller, CMA; Craig Hepworth, financial management consultant to the CMA; Mr. Ray Harper, the financial management consultant of CGA. Amy Wang is the compliance officer with CGA. Sylvester Aghidi, compliance officer, CGA; Gary Ma, compliance officer of the CGA; Sandra Morrison, compliance officer who's a CA.

Wendy Bloomfield is the senior agreement consultant, and Jade Blair is administrative support. Mrs. Mitchelson: I didn't quite get all the names, but they will be in Hansard . So I thank the minister for that. Now, the first three names that he provided, they have a different title than the next three. Then there were–maybe I should start by asking how many service purchase agreements the department negotiates. There are a couple of things I want to ask, so maybe we can start by asking how often are service purchase agreements negotiated, and how many service purchase agreements in each branch of the department.

Mr. Mackintosh: I'm advised they're typically three-year agreements. Ther e were 199 agencies as of May 1, I'm advised. What did I say? Madam Chair, 199 SPAs–is that what I said? There are two being renegotiated. Well, there will always be some being renegotiated, I suppose, and there are two new ones under negotiation. Mrs. Mitchelson: Can I ask what the two new ones under negotiation are? Mr. Mackintosh: One is M.I. House, and the other is a community unemployed help centre. Actually, that one we're expecting to have signed that any day now and, the other one we expect to have signed in the near future. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Can I just ask what M.I. House is? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, my understanding, it's a supported living agency providing residential care. Mrs. Mitchelson: So there are 199, then, and when the two new are negotiated that would be just over 200, 201, is that–can the minister give me a breakdown of what branches those 199 service purchase agreements are in? Mr. Mackintosh: We don't have that answer at hand here. We'll have to provide that breakdown. There are some rough numbers but I think the member is entitled to get the accurate numbers, and we'll provide that. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Madam Chair, and I am wondering if I could have that information for tomorrow, if that would be possible, if you could get that. Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, we'll make all the best efforts. I'm confident the information is at hand; it just has to be brought into the room. Mrs. Mitchelson: Then there was a question that I asked just a little earlier. Which employees, I guess, within the branch, then, would have responsibility for actually negotiating? Do they have responsibility for certain areas of the department? Mr.

Mackintosh: The negotiation of SPAs is led by Wendy Bloomfield, but will involve the participation of others in the department in the area that the services are provided under. * (15:20) Mrs. Mitchelson: So, then, in each program area there would be staff that would be responsible to work with Wendy, who is the lead negotiator. Then, of course, there would be someone from each of the agencies that the agreements were negotiated with that would be involved. Mr. Mackintosh: That reflects the practice. Mrs.

Mitchelson: How many of those 199 or 201 service purchase agreements are with Child and Family Services agencies? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, the department–we have agreements with non-mandated agencies. The mandated child welfare agencies are the responsibility of the authorities. We have SPAs with the authorities, the child welfare authorities. Mrs. Mitchelson: So the minister is indicating, then, that out of these 201 agre ements none of them are with Child and Family Services agencies but that they have a service purchase agreement with each authority, and is it negotiated under this agency accountability unit? Mr.

Mackintosh: Well, I'm advised that there are 34 service providers that are CF extras, external

1716 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2009 agencies or CFS authorities funded through the Child Protection branch. They have SPAs. One, B&L Homes, is being renegotiated. That's the status of those agencies. Mrs. Mitchelson: So, out of this unit, there are four service purchase agreements with the four authorities? Mr. Mackintosh: I'm advised that the formal term for the service purchase agreements for the authorities is contribution agreements, but it is basically the same purpose and format type.

The department is developing a new form of contribution agreement, but there are agreements in place, I understand. Mrs. Mitchelson: So these contribution agreements then are negotiated through the Agency Accountability and Support Unit? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, like with other agreements, they are negotiated with the involvement of the Agency Accountability and Support Unit but with the involvement of the Child Protection branch and, of course, the authorities themselves. The Child Protection branch has a critical role to play, participating in that process. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Who'd be the lead person in the Child Protection branch that would be responsible for the contribution agreements with the authorities? Mr. Mackintosh: I'm advised that, under the authority of the child welfare director, Claudia Ash-Ponce, Brian Ridd has been assigned lead but is not alone in working on these. He works on this with other staff from the Child Protection branch, but Brian Ridd would be the answer to the question. I believe his title is authority relations manager. Mrs. Mitchelson: Out of the 201 service purchase agreements, there would be four.

Are these contribution agreements included in the 201 service purchase agreements? Mr. Mackintosh: I'm advised that's the case, yes. Mrs. Mitchelson: Is there a template for the contribution agreements? There must be a template for all service purchase agreements. They would be different in different areas, or are they consistent across the board in the department? Mr. Mackintosh: It's my understanding the service purchase agreements have two main components; one is a boilerplate basic agreement that's been worked on over time.

As well, then there are attachments that deal specifi cally with the agency or the area of service. Mrs. Mitchelson: Is there a boilerplate for the authorities? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes. Mrs. Mitchelson: Could the minister provide that to us tomorrow? Would that be possible? Mr. Mackintosh: I understand that can be made available. Just to clarify, the member wants the contribution agreements with regard to the authorities? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes, please.

If I go back to the last annual report in 2007-2008 and we look at the agency accountability support units, it says the estimate of expenditure in 2007-2008 was $401,000 approximately, and the actual amount that was spent was $204,000. The note that is attached to that other expenditure says that the variance is primarily due to underexpenditure of audit costs. I guess I would like to ask what audits were planned that year that didn't occur that would have seen the actual that was spent, about half of what the estimate was. Mr.

Mackintosh: I'm advised the amount is available to the unit for contracting out for professional services. They have that option, or they can use the services of internal audit. In that year, I'm advised that there would have been a propensity to use internal resources rather than the contracting out. * (15:30) Mrs. Mitchelson: So are we saying, then, that in the Estimates the total amount every year is for services that might be contracted out? Mr. Mackintosh: The member will see, on page 39, there's a line there of $257,000.

So that is the amount that is available for contracting out if the unit deems it appropriate or useful to pursue that, rather than using internal audit services. Mrs. Mitchelson: I guess my question would be, what kinds of audits would be contracted out versus what kinds of audits could be done internally? Ms. Jennifer Howard, Acting Chairperson in the Chair Mr. Mackintosh: I'm advised that the amount is a contingency amount. It's for unexpected expenditures for special investigations which may arise from time to time, but it certainly allows the unit to be nimble

May 6, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1717 in terms of responding to any issues that might arise and need a swift investigation. Mrs. Mitchelson: Where would I find, in the Estimates, then, the internal audit function? Mr. Mackintosh: The internal audit is a central government service that's provided through the Department of Finance. Mrs. Mitchelson: Is that the internal audit function that was around years ago?

I guess I'm sort of questioning–I know the minister has spent a lot of time talking about agency accountability and how that's been brought back into the department, and that this line, in the Estimates, and the 12 employees, that are here, are negotiating service purchase agreements, which would have been a function that was done in the department before the Agency Accountability and Support Unit was established in the department, because service purchase agreements have been part of what the Department of Family Services and Housing has d one forever, I think–for a long period of time, anyway.

So, if the minister is telling me that the internal audit function is the same process that was done before 2004, when the ag ency accountability unit was established, what kinds of accountability functions are happening in the Department of Family Services and Housing other than the service purchase agreement function that always existed? Mr. Mackintosh: The Department of Finance, in the provision of its central service, really is a consulting service for departments on the financial issues, but it has not had a role in negotiating or creating service purchase agreements, for example. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Madam Acting Chair, I know that the Department of Finance never has had that kind of function in its internal audit capacity, but service purchase agreements have been a part of what Family Services has done for many, many years. It's not new. So I guess my question is: Is the main role of the Agency Accountability and Support Unit to negotiate service purchase agreements? Mr.

Mackintosh: First, the Agency Accountability and Support Unit reviews financial reporting with a view to ensuring that what has been happening historically is strengthened, and that often requires working with community, arm's-length organizations to strengthen their financial reporting and, going beyond that, also, of course, to comply with the financial reporting requirements that are set out in the SPAs. They also have responsibility for any special investigations. The SPAs, as the member noted–I mean, you look at the SPAs in the department, they were stalled. I think there was a minority of SPAs.

By 1998, I think that only about just over 20 percent of the agencies had SPAs with the department. I think now we're up to, you know, about a hundred percent, if it's not a hundred percent. But, as well, as the title of the unit says, it's not just about accountability, but also supports. We have all of these, hundreds upon hundreds of community-driven organizations, these boards, that are comprised of well-meaning Manitobans who are doing some great work, but often they need the additional support that the unit can provide, and the training is one.

There is a number of board training workshops that have been launched as a result of the strengthening of the Agency Accountability and Support Unit. * (15:40) So we see that as a key part of the prevention networks that are needed to avoid problems that can arise from time to time. We're seeing, not only there but in the child welfare sector, the importance of board training and the development of strong procedures in place to deal with issues that have been identified, including by the Auditor General in the past.

Of course, the unit also does the liaison with the branches in the department, and from time to time, some other departments of government, in particular Finance. I think this unit is very important. I think it has to remain in place. The department provides funding, the Legislature provides funding, of course, to many organizations.

I think Manitobans might think that Family Services and Housing directly provides services to Manitobans, when, in fact, I know that this may be trite for the member, but the services are provided through these arms-length organizations all across the province in so many endeavours of social services. I think that there remains good work ahead that's needed to strengthen boards and put in place preventative practices as well as making sure that the financial requirements in the SPAs are followed. Because there are some long-standing practices that may have worked very we ll for certain boards for

1718 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2009 many, many years, and people on boards that have come from even the financial sector and do have an understanding, but are pursuing practices that now are being recognized as not best practices. So that will continue to be an important role for this unit, one that has to be, I think, an integral part of government.

I will say this, finally, is that, yes, this unit is part of administration, and some may perceive this as increasing the bureaucracy and not front-line service, but you can't have the front-line service delivered with accountability and support without this kind of function. I can understand why, in the '90s, there was a decision to disband the agency relations unit in the department. In tight times, people look to see how administrative costs can be reduced, but I think that is short-sighted, and this is the right way to go. I think we're on the right path now, but we still have work to do.

We recognize that, to make sure that the unit is fully staffed and is working with as many external, arm's-length agencies as we can possibly enable. Mrs. Mitchelson: I wonder if the minister could indicate, then, back in the 2007-2008 annual report, there was $204,000 spent on other expenditures. Could the minister indicate what was done with that money? Mr. Mackintosh: The officials have given some examples of some of the expenditures. But, perhaps, the member is best owed a breakdown that we could provide.

That information would be available, but would include operating expenditures, include information systems and contracts, those kinds of expenditures. But we could break that out for the member. Madam Chairperson in the Chair Mrs. Mitchelson: Thanks. I would appreciate receiving that information. What special investigations were done because I know that the minister did indicate in one of his answers, just not long ago, that special investigations are done out of this unit. What special investigations have been done– maybe if we just go back to 2007-2008, 2008-2009. Mr.

Mackintosh: I think a good example would be, and one known to the member, the Cree Nation Child and Family Services special investigation that was done as further action on the review of that agency by the northern authority, INAC and the department. Mrs. Mitchelson: So then there would have been someone in the Agency Accountability and Support Unit that was assigned specifically to do that work on behalf of the provincial government? Mr. Mackintosh: The unit would have had involvement in helping to supervise that or oversee it, take

part in the direction overall, but the work was done under a contract for services. Mrs. Mitchelson: I think I probably asked a question that had been answered before, and I think the minister indicated there was contingency money in here to contract out services, and so I think that clarified in my mind then, what some of that money used for. Was that just in the last fiscal year? Mr. Mackintosh: My understanding is the bulk of that expenditure will be in the last fiscal year, but there will be expenditures expected in this fiscal year. The work is not yet completed. Mrs. Mitchelson: That's one example.

Are there others that could be identified? Mr. Mackintosh: I just should add that the Cree Nation cost is being shared with the federal government, INAC, in particular. Another example was given, and we'll look to determine others, but there had been an allegation about a group home operated by St. Amant in the last year, and that was anothe r example of a funding participation by the unit. Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Chair, I thank the minister for those answers.

I think at this point in time, until I maybe get information that the minister has agreed to provide, I may have some follow-up questions, but that's all, right at this point in time. Just one more follow-up question. I know that the annual report isn't out for last year. We should be getting that probably–I don't know what the anticipated date for that is. Mr. Mackintosh: I'm advised the usual time is September. Mrs. Mitchelson: I don't know whether the department can provide for me any information on what was spent in the last year.

Was the money expended then, had been estimated to be spent in this area, or is it too early to be able to provide that information?

May 6, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1719 Mr. Mackintosh: It's my understanding that that amount may be available, may be known, may well be known. So, if it is, we'll provide that. * (15:50) Mrs. Mitchelson: I would imagine that some of the Cree Nation audit function would be a part of that resource that was spent last year. I had some detailed questions on EIA and some of the support programs but I really haven't got staffing issues around that. So do you want me to go through the staffing piece or does it really matter? Mr.

Mackintosh: We can rally staff in here fairly quickly for an area the member wants to raise. Mrs. Mitchelson: I just had one question. On page 63 of Employment and Income Supports, and it's down to the–it's on the Manitoba Child Benefit program. I know that this is a new program that replaced the CRISP program in the department, and I'm just wondering whether the minister could tell me what the difference is in the old program versus the new. Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, there is a number we were looking for and weren't able to quite find it here in terms of the increased take-up of this, which has been a good success.

First of all, there was some initial perception that this was simply another word for the CRISP program, but it's not, in a number of areas. First of all, the amount is increased, an additional monthly amount. There was an asset test before for CRISP. It was a $200,000 asset test, and that has been dropped. That was found to be very–that was really penalizing the ability of farm families to apply, where they had assets, but may not have adequate incomes, so that was a change. As well, the coverage is broadened.

As well, I might just say that while you still have to apply for this, we've developed promotional efforts with agencies, with staff, and we're just trying to get the figure but we know that–I think this is modest, but we've doubled the number of children who are benefiting from this one. But we have a ways to go with the objective of bringing that home by way of an agreement with the federal government integrated with the child tax benefit so that no application is necessary and that families will automatically receive it.

So those discussions have begun, and there has been some federal Treasury analysis, we understand, of this one. But we are pursuing this one with the federal government, hoping that over–I wouldn't even say the longer term, but the medium term–that we can broaden the take-up by way of that technique. So that was the plan originally as well. It was our hope that this could be administered through the tax system. I think we enunciated that at the time and we're pursuing that. * (16:00) Mrs. Mitchelson: I would think that probably that is the good way to go.

But I guess when I look at–and if you're looking for a nu mber I'd appreciate that number, because when I look back to the CRISP program over the years and go back, go all the way back to 1998-99, I see that there was about $1.3 million spent on CRISP, and then, over the years, that number decreased to a point where, I think, in 2004-2005, it was down to $839,000, and if I look at–just have to find it in the annual report–for 2007 and 2008, it was down to $698,000.

Was the new Child Benefit implemented at that point in time or was it implemented after, because it does say Manitoba Child Benefit in the annual report? Mr. Mackintosh: The Manitoba Child Benefit was introduced in January of '08, so the numbers wouldn't reflect the benefit expenditures on an annual basis. Mrs. Mitchelson: If I look at the annual report, the estimate in 2007-2008 was $3 million–oh, $3.1-plus million–as the estimate and at the end of the year, the actual was only $698,000.

The notation beside the Manitoba Child Benefit states that the variance is primarily attributable to slower than expected activity. I guess my question would be: If it has been advertised, how many families are taking up the application? Mr. Mackintosh: The intention with the Manitoba Child Benefit is to–and it remains the intention and the intention originally was to estimate this as a 100 percent take-up program as a result of integration with the federal government's co-operation. We hadn't achieved that. We want to work in a positive way w ith the federal government on this one.

We have made the necessary interventions with the federal government and there was number crunching. There were meetings held, I understand, and special delegations to Ottawa and everything that can be done to bring attention to the interest of Manitoba in having this integrated and we're going to continue to do that.

1720 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2009 In the meantime, we all recognize it's a challenge sometimes to reach families and that's why a strategy has been launched to promote this. We want it for all. We want it on reserve as well for First Nations. Hopefully, we'll have some good news in the near future on that one. It was designed as a multiyear strategy, and at least we're on our way now to significantly increasing the uptake. I think, too, as well, we saw with CRISP that there were increases in family incomes over time and that would be reflected then in the year-end expenditures under CRISP.

I should introduce Grant Doak who is the ADM responsible for the disability programs and employment and income assistance area. Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Chair, I do know that the three staff members that have been at the table so far from Family Services are long-time– An Honourable Member: Old. Mrs. Mitchelson: No, and I didn't say that, because it would make me– They maybe have some questions about my longevity, but I just want to indicate that they were excellent employees and have been over many, many years in the Department of Family Services.

So I do want to certainly give them credit for the good job that they do. I guess my question is, when the minister said they are looking for 100 percent take-up on the program, I would like him to explain what that means and how many children are we looking at. How many families are we looking at when we talk about 100 percent? Mr. Mackintosh: It's estimated that, if the tax system could be used to distribute this benefit, it would be almost 100 percent: I'm told anywhere from 95 to 97 percent.

There may be some who just don't file, but when you have a family, though, and you can enjoy the tax benefits, then some people file even when they don't have income. It would approximate 100 percent or close to that, if we could achieve this working relationship with the federal government. We think it has the potential, then, of reaching up to 33,000 ch ildren in the province, including on reserve. We've made some offers, and there's been some response. We're not pleased with that yet, but we still remain hopeful that we can achieve some movement.

Perhaps even the member could help us in that regard with some of her colleagues. I think this would be an excellent way to demonstrate to Manitobans that this is an excellent example of how the provincial and federal governments can attack poverty in a united way. I think the Manitoba Child Benefit has one of the single greatest potentials to directly alleviate poverty for families in Manitoba. We think the program is designed right; it's just the delivery has to be improved with the help of the federal government.

We've been able to get some very positive responses from the federal government recently in the area of child welfare, with some discussions on working together to address on-reserve issues and with Jordan's Principle. Those are two areas where I think we've had breakthroughs in the last year or so alone. This is one that we remain hopeful because it was always part of our original strategy to try and bring down the welfare wall with the federal government by helping low-income families with children. * (16:10) The federal government has, likewise, though recognized the role of the welfare wall.

Rewarding Work is about the welfare wall more than anything. It was shortly around that time when we brought in Rewarding Work the federal government brought in the working income tax benefit or WITB. Minister Flaherty, I think, probably recognized that that welfare wall could be attacked by the federal government as well. So we see this as a complementary initiative to that. So I'm looking forward to some positive responses from our colleagues in Ottawa on this. Mrs. Mitchelson: Is the Manitoba Child Benefit available on reserves today? Mr.

Mackintosh: There's been a fair bit of dialogue, particularly around child we lfare about the fiduciary obligations of the federal government to Aboriginal people, First Nations people, living on reserve. This is an area, as well, where we respect the federal jurisdiction. It's important to continue that respect, but we think that they could join with us to ensure that the benefits are matched on reserve with the child benefit. Mrs.

Mitchelson: My long-term memory is pretty good, still, but I'm just wanting to go back and revisit the National Child Benefit at this point in time because the National Child Benefit is for all children, be all Manitoba children, and that would include on

May 6, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1721 reserve. Can you tell me how the National Child Benefit works? Mr. Mackintosh: The Manitoba Child Benefit is in addition to the National Child Benefit. It would enhance incomes for families with children. Mrs. Mitchelson: So then the National Child Benefit is paid equally, across all provinces, by the federal government, both on and off reserve. Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, that's right. Mrs.

Mitchelson: So I guess, in negotiations with the federal government, the Province is, and, I guess, I would ask what dollar figure they're looking at contributing and what that would mean per child, and are they, then, asking the federal government to pay the Manitoba Child Benefit on top of the National Child Benefit on reserve? Manitoba is saying that we want to provide a child benefit, but only to children off of reserve and we would like you, as the federal government, to pay that child benefit, to top up the National Child Benefit on reserve. Mr.

Mackintosh: We think it's important that there be additional assistance for low-income working families and to focus additional assistance, where families have children, is the right way to go. I think it's a good bang for the buck in terms of providing greater opportunities for families and addressing the welfare wall at the same time. So, respecting jurisdiction, we're doing our part and we're growing this exponentially, but that's why we need the federal government to really bring this home and making sure that it's a benefit available to all Manitobans. So we're going to continue our efforts. Mrs.

Mitchelson: I do know that there was a change in the National Child Benefit when government changed. The Member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) is here at the table, and I know that he accused us, as the government, of clawing back the National Child Benefit to those that received welfare. I know that the policy was changed when this government took over, and the National Child Benefit is being provided to all children, low-income children, regardless of whether they are working families or families on welfare. Am I correct in that assumption? Mr.

Mackintosh: So the National Child Benefit is available to those on EIA and not on EIA. The government, it was a very bold decision to end the clawback of the National Child Benefit. In Manitoba, I understand that we have the most fully restored benefit flowing to families of the provinces, that other provinces that have moved to end their clawback have only cherry-picked how the clawback should end. There are other provinces, though, big provinces like Ontario and British Columbia, that continue to claw back the National Child Benefit.

By the way, this investment, we've invested about $75 million more per year in low-income support since 1999, and I think one of the single biggest investments of that $75 million was the $13.7 million going to end the clawback. So, it was a very significant investment. Mrs. Mitchelson: I was part of the negotiations across the country for the National Child Benefit, and the whole focus of the National Child Benefit at the time was to ensure that low-income working families were better off than those that were on welfare.

That was the premise right across the country, and that was the premise that all ministers signed on to the National Child Benefit. The federal government agreed to give money to the provinces for those families that were on welfare to help to develop programs that might move people off welfare and into the work force. It's much more difficult to move people into the work force when you're receiving more money on welfare than you are in a low-income job. That was the premise of the National Child Benefit, and that was what all provinces bought into and negotiated.

That money was provided to provinces for those that were on welfare to try to help in programming. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think, I believe, that was the premise of the program at the time. I think we began to develop, as the result of that, some programming that worked for families on EIA to try to move them out of that cycle of poverty, because I've always been one that believed that a life on welfare will always be a life of poverty. That's reality.

I don't think they can ever afford to provide support to non-working families that would raise them above the poverty line, and I know that's something that some may strive to achieve, but I don't believe that we as a society would ever be able to afford that. The ideal, of course, for all of us, would be meaningful employment for absolutely everyone but trying to ensure, if you're a low-income working person, that the supports are available to you for your children, for your housing and other things that may need to be provided for families. * (16:20)

1722 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2009 So I know that the government made a decision and moved in a direction that would allow that National Child Benefit to flow directly to all families, regardless of whether they were low-income working or families on EIA. That was their choice and decision, and I hear the minister say that other provinces have cherry-picked, and some of the provinces haven't moved in that direction.

But I still believe that support needs to go to low-income working families, and that would be–I guess I would ask the question of whether the Manitoba Child Benefit, when we talk about 33,000 children that might be impacted by the National Child–maybe I better just go back on the National Child Benefit and ask the question, then. All of the money that comes–the federal government doesn't pay the money, the National Child Benefit, directly to those on EIA. Is it the Province that provides that money? Mr.

Mackintosh: Those two comments, first, the federal government's National Child Benefit does flow directly to the families now. It is not considered in the income eligibility test for EIA. But, I mean, a fundamental disagreement, I'm sure, that is obvious there is that we think that flowing the benefit to the families has had an impact on our poverty rate. We have had some, not enough, but we have had some improvements, particularly to single parents, single moms and their families–in fact, a very significant decrease in the rate there.

Not good enough, no consolation, but, as well, though, focussing this benefit as a flow-through is about children. It, of course, isn't a flow-through of some benefit that would go to everyone on welfare. It is to those families with children on welfare. So that is an important distinction.

But I also just want to conclude that, I think that while there may have been some thinking that a clawback would be justified because programming could be developed to deal with those on welfare, even by ending the clawback, not only have we not cut any of those initiatives, but we've grown them, and now, two years ago, we launched Rewarding Work, which is a whole new tomorrow in terms of addressing the welfare wall based on some of the best practices anywhere.

A lot of that is from efforts in the U.K. and Caledon Institute's research, and some other initiatives and some other jurisdictions; I think Saskatchewan is doing some work like that. But people still have to survive, you know, when you have children. I think that it was the right decision. There are groceries and rent to pay so, in concert with Rewarding Work, I think we're now– what's under development in Manitoba is truly a modern approach to enabling people to get off of welfare. You look at some of the initiatives that are focussed just on those who are working in Manitoba.

Allowing people on welfare to keep more of their earned income, I think, is resulting in more people on welfare working. I talked about some of those numbers earlier, but I think the movement is the right one. I'm sure those philosophies have gone to work in the past on the floor of the Legislature, but we want to move it on now and get this Manitoba Child Benefit take-up significantly enhanced with our federal partners. Mrs. Mitchelson: So just explain to me, the National Child Benefit, then, flows to the Province and the Province provides that to families with children? Mr.

Mackintosh: The benefit is income tested. I understand there's a very complicated formula that does include, though, essentially an analysis of income and the number of children in the family, and it's based on information provided in the previous year's tax return. That's my understanding. But the question from the member is whether the money flows directly from the federal government to a family, and it does. I understand that there's a monthly cheque that is mailed to every family. Mrs. Mitchelson: So that those that are on EIA also get a cheque directly from the federal government? Mr.

Mackintosh: Yes, everyone, whether on EIA or not, the families would get the cheque directly. I mean, the difference with ending the clawback then was that the eligibility for EIA changed. That income was exempted from the calculation of income when calculating whether someone was entitled to EIA benefits. By the way, there's a trend; I mean, we're focussing on a number of exemptions. In the last number of years alone and under Rewarding Work, there have been a number of new exemptions. Most recently, there've been settlements, for example, from residential school claims that have been exempted from income.

Liquid assets are a big move. That is about welfare wall and an incentive. I think we have among the most generous work incentives now in the country. We've doubled those, and we've doubled more for persons with disabilities just last December, as I recall.

May 6, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1723 So that was how it worked. It was just them not recognizing the cheque that comes monthly as income for that family. Mrs. Mitchelson: Does that flow directly on reserve to families too? Do you know? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, I'm advised it does. Mrs. Mitchelson: I guess the minister is indicating that the Manitoba Child Benefit will not really be able to become as successful as the minister would like unless the federal government comes on board. Mr.

Mackintosh: Well, in the meantime, we're making best efforts and we're looking at how we can intensify those by way of ads, by way of agencies and our offices having the application forms and information available. I'm sure the member has seen the ad campaign alerting Manitobans to the Manitoba Child Benefit and some basic information that would attract some interest.

That is showing some success; we're significantly increasing the take-up, but what we want to see–and we enunciated this when we announced it–was that it be integrated with Ottawa's scheme and in that way, we can certainly grow it almost immediately rather than the incremental growth that, although showing some success, is incremental over time. So we think that both governments have a vital role to play in helping to deliver this in a way that can best serve the needs of children. Mrs. Mitchelson: How much is the Manitoba Child Benefit today?

When the application goes out, is it income tested or is it a straight flat rate? Mr. Mackintosh: We started the–and by the way, we anticipate being able to enhance this program over time because we think it's a good model–but it is income tested up to $35 a month per child. There's a formula. In other words, it can be a partial benefit depending on your income per child, but the maximum is $35 a child on a monthly basis. * (16:30) Mrs. Mitchelson: I see in the annual report of 2007-2008, the last one that we have, that the uptake was, I guess, 783 families and 1,668 children for a total of 698,000.

That was '07-08. Do we have the numbers for '08-09, the actuals? Mr. Mackintosh: I'm advised that the department's in the process of getting the updated numbers now. The year that the member referenced, though, had only a partial year implementation. It was the January start in '08. Mrs. Mitchelson: So somewhere else in the annual report, if it only started in January of '08, there must have been a CRISP program, or was that cancelled? Where would I find that in the annual report? Mr. Mackintosh: I'm advised

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-3-37
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 3rd hansardpdf 37.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	87f649681c19d3e8871533c3109f97cecf052498

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