Volume 3 THIRTV-SD<TH GE~E.RAl ASSEMBLY OF N.EWF:OUN.t,LAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM: REPORT FRIDAY, MARCH 29, 1914 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 36

March 29, 1974, Tape 944, Page 1 - apb The House met at 11:00 a.m. Mi:. Speaker in the Chair. (Opening of session missing due to breakdown of master tapes,) MR. W.N.ROWE: ••• Cove to the Seal Cove branch, six miles to be upgraded and resurfaced with crushed stone, also all by-roads within the Coll!Dlunity of Wild Cove.

Secondly, to extend and build a by-road also covering it with crushed stone which links five families with the main road in the Community of Wild Cove and to extend and build also, covering it with crushed stone, fifteen hundred feet of road to the wharf linking it with the main road in the Community of Wild Cove. The second petition, Sir, says: "We the undersigned of Wild Cove do petition (to myself) for a new water supply system including a new dam to be built on a higher level and a new, larger main waterline to be installed.

Now, Sir, the people of Wild Cove have been after improvements in these services for some time. When we formed the administration we made some money available to have a water system installed. One of the problems being of course, tha~ there is no c011D11unity council in Wild Cove and therefore, lacking that kind of organization there is a limit to which any government wants to go in giving out money for service&, especially if things have to be maintained, like water systems or sewer systems and that sort of thing.

However, Sir, we did give out a certain amount of money to assist with the installation of a water system. Not a very good one I must admit, it freezes up and sometimes it does not work too well. I would like to support the petition of the residents that the Department of Municipal Affairs under its unincorporated communities water vote provide further assistance to this community for a water system. The road, Sir, has always been a bone of contention. It is sort of a path or winding road that leads off the main road to 2861

¥.arch 29, 1974, Tape 944, Page 2 _ apb Seal Cove and many officials in the Department of Highways who have always given the excuse that there are very few families involved and the amountof money necessary to upgrade that road to a half decent standard is not warranted by the number involved. that is the type of excuse and I suppose economically, purely economically that makes some sense.

On the other hand, Sir, what one has to realize also, from the economic standpoint, is that aa we go over the list of people on this petition we suddenly realize that in the case of Wild Cove ~ are talking about one of the most industrious communities in Newfoundland. Everybody there, Sir, with the exception of one or · two, everybody there is working and that included bad times and good times. If we look over the list we will see that a person is a foreman or a miner, heavy equipment operator, f~ll-fledged mechanic, some fishermen, carpenters.

Everybody has a trade, a good paying crade and of course, everybody p&ys a great deal of taxes to the provincial government .and then to the federal government. They feel and I think rightly, that more in the way of public services should be provided to their communi.ty. People have to go back and forth over the road, children go back and forth over the road to Baie Verte to go to school and j.ust about all the men in the community go back and forth to work in Advocate or Rambler ~.i.nes and the road, of course, has a very adverse effect on their cars and everything else.

People also go back and forth over that road to go to hospital . . ' , ..

March 29, 1974 Tape 945 IB-1 For these reasons, Sir, I would ask the Minister of Finance to hopefully allow sufficient funds for the treasury board to allow sufficient funds within the Department of Highways and the Departll!fflt of Municipal Affairs to bring these basic and elementary services, that is an upgraded road and a water system~ bring these basic services up to an acceptable standard. I support these two petitions wholeheartedly, Sir, and I ask that they be received by this honourable House and referred to the department to which they relate. NOTICE OF MOTIONS: MR. E.

ROBERTS (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Thank you. Mr. Speaker, I would like to give notice of a motion and, if it is agreed and I think it may be when the motion is read, to ask if the House will adopt it unanimously at this time. Although I did not have the opportunity to consult the Premier in advance - an oversight for which I apologize - I hope he will be able to second the motion. The motion is as follows, Sir: ''WHEREAS On March 31, 1949 immediately before the stroke of midnight Newfoundland and Labrador became the tenth province of Canada; and

WHEREAS The intervening twenty-five years have proven without any doubt whatsoever the wisdom of our decision to become a province of Canada and our people have prospered to an extent undreamed of; and

WHEREAS Newfoundland's decision to enter Confederation was prompted by the inspired leadership of Joseph Robert Smallwood and brought to fruition by many years of active and untiring publicity and campaigning by him before,during and after the national convention; and

WHEREAS This House feels 'that it would be the wish of the entire province that an expression of our indebtness to the said Joseph Robert Smallwood should appear in the journals of this House; BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED: That this House take advantage of this happy anniversary to salute Joseph Robert Smallwood and to place on the records of this House the gratitude and appreciation of all the people of Newfoundland and Labrador for the outstanding service rendered by him to Newfoundland and Labrador during these momentous years." 2863

March 29, 1974 Tape 945 IB-2 Mr. Speaker, that is almost word for word,with the change of twenty to twenty-five, the same motion moved by the Hon. Mr. Curtis in 1969, seconded by the then Leader of the Opposition, who is presently the Minister of Education. I move it, Sir, I would hope that the Premier will second it and as I say I did not have the opportunity to see him outside the House to ask him if he would but I hope he will. If not, one of my colleagues would be happy to second it, Sir. HON. F. ~ORES (PREMIER): Mr.

Speaker, as the Leader of the Opposition said, this notice of motion was just given to me a moment ago. Certainly Mr. Smallwood's contribution twenty-five years ago deserves to be on record and I will gladly second the motion. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, does this motion require unanimous consent? MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if it be agreed, I would assume by unanimous consent, then it could be entered in the journals of the House. If not, then I would assume that it is like any other motion, it would be debated at the proper time,in due course. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: I would like to debate it. MR.

ROBERTS: You would like to debate it? Fine. MR. SPEAKER: It is the feeling of the Chair that the motion would require unanimous consent of the House. MR. ROBERTS: Have we the consent? MR. SPEAKER: Do we have the unanimous consent of the House? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: No. MR. SPEAKER: There is not unanimity, so I cannot accept the motion. MR. ROBERTS: Cannot put the motion, no but I mean it could be entered as a notice. Fine. Thank you, Sir. HON. T. DOYLE ( ~INI STER OF TOURISM): I give notice that I will on tomorrow beg leave to - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

DOYLE: I give notice that I will on tomorrow beg leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting The Colonial Building". 2864

March 29. 1974 Tape 94S IB-3 ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to d·irect a _quaettoa to tbe. ''Money- ' bags'.', the Minister of Finance. Would the minister iaform the Bouse if he has yet - MR. MORGAN:· Mr. Speake~~ on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! -Order.-please! The honourable member from Bonavista South rose on a point of order. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, just for a point of obsenatioa. and infomation. The 2865

March 29. 1974 Tape 946 (Morning) PK:- 1 The honourable Member for Bell Island was thrown out of the House of A•sembly. I should say thrown out I guess,for a four day period. Are the four days up, Mr. Speaker? HON. MEMBERS: No, no. MR. SP!AIQ:R: Order, please: For the clarification of honourable members the four days have expired. The honourable member left on Monday evening before the sitting had expired, and Monday has been counted as ~ne sitting day; Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, which are the four days. and he is free to take his seat today. MR. S. A. REARY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Finance has yet secured the information that I asked for concerning the Group Insurance Plan covering the employees of the Linerboard Mill? The minister undertook to get me the information before he had me flung out of the House there four or five days ago? MR. CROSBIE: In connection with that so-called question, the honourable minister who is speaking now did not have the honourable gentleman flung out of the House. The House of Assembly had the honourable gentleman flung out. That is who did the flinging.

Now in connection with the question that he asked a few days ago.about Group Insurance I think it was, the proposals were requested in August 1972 by "Kates, Peat, Marwick, from eight companies in connection with the group insurance or employee fringe benefits or whatever it is. The best proposal and the one accepted was from Canada Life. That is who got the business. This Lab~ador Linerboard now I am talking about. MR. NEARY: Stephenville. - part of Goose Bay? MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I am not familiar with every detail of the company's operations.

All I k~ow is. that there ia a group insurance plan at Stephenville, and this is who has got it, and eight firms were asked for proposals in August, 1972. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on Interim Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair: COMMI TTEE OF SUPPLY: 2866

March 29, 1974 Tape 946 (Morning) PK - 2 · MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! HEAD VII, Department of Justice $1,400,000: HON, W, W, MARSHALL (MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO): Mr. Chairman, I would like to give a few details with respect to this. The total vote is for $1,400,000 comprising of salaries of $565,000 for April and $565,000 for May. A total of $1,030,000. Equipment and supplies a total of $200,000 for both months; miscelleanous expenditures of $70,000. In other words it is just general housekeeping as it were, Expenditures to keep the department going for a period of two months.

On motion, Bead VII - Department of Justic~. carried., HEAD VIII, Social Services, , $8 million: MR. OTTENHEnmR: Mr. Chairman, on behalf of the Minister of Social Services who as honourable members know has been ill for some time: A breakdown of the expenditures asked for in Interim Supply. the total is $8 million. The breakdown as provided to me in the following categories: $720,000 salaries ·for personnel of the department. The' Child Welfare Programme of the department, $388,000; other allowances - which is for disabled persons and fot" blind, $47,000. Then other subheads,the total of $160,000.

That will include, for example, field services of the department, 2867

March 29, 1974 Tape no. 947 Page 1 - MW staff training programme, the general administration of the department. Those are the main areas and, of course, the huge bulk of the remainder and that is - I have not added the total but I think it would come to $6.7 million in round figures and that, of course, is the social assistance programme itself. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there are just a couple of questions I would like to ask. I do not know if the minister can get them. He can probably get me the answers, the officials may be outside there.

Could the minister tell me, under Child Welfare if there has been provision for an increase in the foster home rates? Has there been an increase in the last few months or is there an increase included in this amount for foster homes? Bow many children are in foster homes at the present time? Would the minister also inform the Bouse if there has been an increase in the blind allowance or if the amount of the blind allowance is still the same as it has always been?

Vould the minister also find out from the officials if there has · been an investigation into complaints made by some of the senior citizens in the Senior Citizens' Home in Gander, complaints about the washroom facilities out there? I think Lakeside Homes it is· called. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Actually, I do not have that specific information. If the honourable gentleman will agree, I will certainly provide it this afternoon and with leave of the committee before we get into another heading. I will undertake to provide it this afternoon. Just to go over them~to make sure I have them right.

In :hild Welfare the number of ~eople in foster homes and whether an increase in foster home payments is envisioned, The same with respect to the blind and with respect to the Senior Citizens' Home in Gander- if there is any action taken or contemplated with respect to complaints from some residents? MR. CHAIRMAN: On motion Head VIII, Social Services, carried. 2868

March 29, 1974 Tape no. 941 Page 2 BEAD IX - REHABILITATION AND RECREATION: HON. 't. DOYLE (Acting Minister of Rehabiliation and Recreation) : Yes, Mr. Chairman, the amount of $3,000,00Q is broken down as follows: general administration, $40,000; homes for special care, $430 1 000; homes for the aged. $800,000; children's homes. $3~0,000; training schools, $160,000. MR.. F. B. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, would the minister mind s~-·- down just a little please? MR.. DOYLE: Fair enough. I will go back.

General administration, $40,000; homes for special care. $4301 000; homes for the aged, $800,000; subhead 905, children's homes. $360,000; 906, training schools, $160 1 000; 907, rehabilitation, $36,000; 908 1 recreation and sports services, $450,000; 909, youth services, $741 000; 910, Labrador Services, $570,000 and 911, grants to private agencies, $80,000, for a total of $3,000,000. The amount for salaries is included in each subhead. The amount for the institutions and training schools are to cover normal expenditure on maintenance and clothing.

The amount for recreation and sport services and youth services are to cover travelling for field officers~ the 4-H Programme, the Young Voyageur Programme and to carry out our programmes of support for sport and recreation throughout the province. The amount for Labrador Services is to cover normal operations of that division. On grants to private agencies. subhead 911, provision has been made for requests from agencies for their semi-annual grants. 2869

March 29, 1974 Tape No. 948 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: Gentleman, I realize now that I put the question about the home in Gander to the wrong minister so perhaps I could save the Minister of Education the trouble of looking for that informatinn because my question really should have been to the minister responsible for rehabilitation. I had forgotten all about restructuring, Mr.

Chairman, and being a stranger in the House in the last few days I suppose you do not blame me but I would like to put the same question to the Minister of Tourism who is responsible for the rehabilitation in the homes for special care-· if he could tell me if there has been an investigation into the complaints made by some of the residents of that home, Lakeside Home in Gander? I would like to know what the result of the investigations were? MR. DOYLE: All I can tell you right now is there has been an investigation on it. I can send down and get a copy of the investigation.

It has been an ongoing investigation but I will check it out for him. MR. F. ROWE: · Three · million for two months, when looked at in terms of the total budget for the Department of Rehabilitation and Recreation for the full year,could translate itself into something like $18 million as compared with $8 million last year,which is an increase of $10 million. Now the first question I would like to put to the minister: In this amount of e3 million any indication of what - Is this $3 million, Mr. Chairman, any indication of what is likely r to be contained in the main estimates for the minister's department? MR.

DOYLE: As it specifically refers to sports and recreation which I think is what he is referring to,in specifics, right? Is the honourable member referring to the overall budget or - MR. F. Rm-TE: The overall budget. MR. DOYLE: Well the reason for the large amount now and the reason why it will not necessarily translate into six times that. is that a lot o~ the grants that are paid in a year for both recreation purposes and for private agencies such as CNIB and so on, they are paid you know like April 1, or the people want them as soon as the estimates ao through, April - May, so that that part of the amount 2870

March 29, 1974 Tape No. 948 NM - 2 will be heavier in the first couple of months of the year than later on because it will all have been paid out during the first couple of months you see. That is why that

part is higher in the first two months than it is for the rest of the year. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, at this great dinner, the great Sports Hall of Fame dinner we had some months ago at the Holiday Inn, the honourable the Premier suggested at that time that there will be things done in the name of sports and recreation in this province the like of which we have never witnessed in the province over the past twenty-five years.

I was wondering if the minister could give some indication of what amounts of money or what programmes would be made available for the purpose of these great steps forward in the field of sports and recreationt MR. DOYLE: I cannot be too specific at this time, Mr. Chairman, for the simple reason that the overall estimates will have to be approved because, depending on the total that is :f.n there for sports and recreation and what is approved, what new services we can do will depend on the total budget rather than just,part of it.

But I can say, as the Premier has said publicly, that there will be a fairly large increase in recreation support, I do not mean to make any puns, recr~tion support in general during the coming year but as . to specifics at this - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. DOYLE: I am sorry about that. As to specifics at this point in time I cannot because we have to get the full estimates through first because the new programmes we have we hope to introduce this year are based on the total amount, not just on the ,µnount for the . first couple of months. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I would like.to ask the minister 2871

March 29, 1974 Tape 949 (morning) IB-1 what the situation is with respect to 4-H Clubs throughout the province. I had received a letter and persumably this is a form letter that has gone to most of the or probably all the members of this House. Sir, I would like to just read that letter and ask the minister what the problem seems to be with respect to 4-H Clubs in this province. "We are writing this letter t~ ask for your support of the 4-H Programme on an islandwide basis." This is from the St. Mary's Bay 4-H district council. "Here in St.

Mary's Bay we have nine clubs with the possibilities of at least nine more" We are deeply concerned with the lack of attention the 4-H Programme has received in our district and on the island. •we blame this lack of concern on you, the politician,who it seems have not helped the programme extend the way it should be. The 4-H Programme is concerned with the development of our youth. Surely this is a worthwhile purpose alone to expand and explore this excellent programme. We do not blame the 4-H staff, the few that there are,for lack of attention in our area, we blame it on the government.

For this programme to be extended it obviously needs more money and more staff to help us with the youth. "We sincerely hope that you will enquire into this matter and give us you total support." Now, Sir, this is from the St. Mary's Bay 4-H district council. It seems that the representative of that council feels that the politicians in the government are not doing enough to help the 4-H Programmes. I was wondering if the !llinister would indicate what the problem is here and what the - I did not quite get the budget for the 4-H Programme in interim supply.

What seems to be the problem? ~- DOYLE: Yes, I would be delighted to, Mr. Chairman. The 4-H Moveinent is one that is very close to my heart. It was covered in that amount I gave for recreation and sports services and youth services which totals $450,000 plus $74,000. The problem has been simply lack of staff and I am personally convinced purely because of the fact that the 4-H Moveme'nt in my 2872 •

March 29, 1974 Tape 949 (morning) IB-2 . district, in Ferryland, happens to be a very successful.one simply because they have had staff in which to get it going. The same thing applies in other parts of the province where the department has been able to lay on staff. There is no reason why 4-H will not work anywhere if the staff can be provided. The problem has been all along a shortage of staff. We have added in the past year - we have just about doubled the staff and we have plans,once the main estimates are through, to further add to what we have done in the past year. It is a growing movement.

It is a very important movement. It does wonders for the members in it, which I have seen at first hand. It is somethi~g that I feel has been down-played unfortunately and we have now come to the point where we have got to make it into a major programme. There are many, many areas in the province such as St. Mary's and such as parts of my own district that want in on it and such places on the West Coast and.well.all over the province who are crying out for assistance. The only way that they can get it is new staff. We have just advertised for a 4-H officer for St. Anthony, I believe it was in the paper this week.

So, we are gradually getting out. The staff has been about doubled and we hope to add to it this year. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, is there any of this . money at all in interim supply going towards the 1977 Swnmer Games? MR. DOYLE: No. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, I believe most of us are aware of the rather acute shortage of beds or rooms which exist in the homes for the aged. I am particularly concerned insofar as that relates to bedridden cases. I am sure in our respective constituencies we have all run into a number of cases that present real dilemmas.

The only solution for those cases is for them to be admitted to a home. We are told that in the case of Hoyles Home the waitirig list is about 200 long, 400 I misheard the official on the phone I guess. Anyway 400, that is "·orse still. I am sure, relatively speaking , the same 2873

Karch 29. 1974 Tape 949 (~orning) IB-3 could be said of the other h~s across the province. As I say, we · all know of particular cases. The one that I just want to mention to you to dramatize the situation before putting a question to the minister is this one. It is in $.t. Alban's. It came to my attentiot) the last week or so. I was aware of it to some degree but I did not realize just how serious it was. there is a family in St. Alban' s who have had eight 2874

March 29, 1974 Tape 950 IB-1 children, all physically handicapped. Three of them dierl between one, two and three weeks old, another a couple of months old and another seven yea.rs old. The family still cons.is ts, in addition to the 1 father and mother, of five handicapped persons one eleven and one sixteen years of age here in St. John's in a home, a girl twenty-one at home, a boy twenty-two, both able to walk to some degree but just around the house, and a boy twenty-four, a fellow twenty-four who was in the re­ habilitation center until Wednesday of this week.

Everybody in rehabilitation and I think in the minister's department agrees, they do to me anyway,that he is a case for the home. This fellow,twenty­ four, he is in a wheel chair and he is unable to tend to himself really. I just mentioned this one because it is a case where just sheer humanity requires that we have a look at our programmes and see if there is anything that can be done that is not being -done right now.

Obviously my specific question to the minister is what plans do government have to alleviate the acute shortage which exists in homes for the aged, acute shortage of rooms and beds which exists in homes for the aged across the province? MR. DOYLE: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member's comments and question are well taken. We are only too well aware of the problem. As he is probably himself aware, there is a movement under way in Springdale for the establishment of such a home.

There are at the latest count, I believe, similar movements in approximately six areas of the province, Bonavista, Springdale, Baie Verte and so on. Speaking personally, I feel that everybody would be better off if we could have a network of smaller type homes throughout the province rather than two or three massive units in one or two larger centers such as we have in the case of Hoyles Homes which is filling the need. We all know that.

We have been talking lately with these various people, mostly inter-faith committees from these various places and we are going to have to get involved in the coming year with certainly two or three of them. There is no way in any one given year the government 2875

March 29, 1974 Tape 950 (morning) IB-2 could get involved financially with six or eight or ten but I think the basic philosophy should be that - you know, it is obvious that a person would like to stay within the area of where they were brought up. It makes things very much easier on their relatives as far as visiting is concerned. It makes them feel like they are still in their own atmosphere as it were. So, I can assure the honourable member that it is a matter that we are giving serious thought to. We have met with five or six delegations representing various places,including Springdale.

Just last week as a matter of fact was the most recent meeting with the Springdale crowd. It is an area that we have to get involved in but, as I said, it has to be looked at, I feel, in a new light. That is to have a network of smaller homes throughout the province, rather than two or three large places. I simply say that if the honourable member should care to give me the name afteTWards or now of the particular family he referred to in Sc. Alban' s, I shall certainly have that checked out to see what I can do for the twenty-four year old wheelchair case.

All I can say now is that we know it is a massive problem. We are working on it and I would sincerely hope that during the coming year we will find it : possible to get involved in three or four areas.of the province. MR. SIMM)NS:A further word; I could not endorse more what the minister bu said about the philosophy of trying to locate some homes in the various areas around the province. I think this is important.

As I have travelled ar~und the country, particularly the nation rather than the province, I always get a bit disgusted that those old people's homes tend to wind up on the busiest intersection in town. 2876 ,,

March 29, 1974 Tape 951 (morning) PK - l and the philosophy that he has expressed is one that I can certainly endorse. MR. NEARY: Started by the former administration~by the way. In fact the pro~ra111111e was already implemented when the minister took it over. MR. SIMMONS: I would just like to mention, I will not mention the name obviously. It probably would not be discreet to do so but I would mention for your information, the official I was talking to, Mr. Reg Moore, he was most helpful but he will have the name, he is quite familiar with the case already.

I would certainly appreciate whatever the minister could do in this respect. Thank you. MR. ROWE, W.N. Mr. Chairman, as the minister knows - I imagine he knows, probably in conjunction with the Minister of Health, there has been a proposal put to the government by Dr. Black, the Supervisor, Administrator or whatever his title is at the Boylen Hospital in Baie Verte,to get an old age home, for the want of a better word, sort of adjacent to or connected with the hospital in Baie Verte. What is the present status of that? I have been.writing letters back and forth and receiving letters from the Minister of Health.

I do not believe any final decision had been taken at the time I received my last letter. Yb.at is the present status? Is there any likelihood at all of that going ahead this year? MR. DOYLE: It falls in the same category as the one I just mentioned to the honourable the Member for Hermitage, I said we have been dealing with five or six groups; Baie Verte is another one of them. There are Springdale, Baie Verte, Bonavista, and two or three others but Baie Verte, is one of the ones that we are considering, is getting active consideration at this time. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, just for the sake of setting the record straight and for the minister's own information, the programme that the minis~er outlined there a few minutes ago was started three years ago in this province. It has taken the minister and his government two years to discover that the programme for establishing smaller type senior citiz~ns homes in various communities and regions across this 2877

March 29, 1974 Tape 951 (morning) PK - 2 prov:f.nce was started three years ago,unveiled. the programme was unyeiled over at the Arts and Culture Centre at that great conference that we had over there in - the Development Conference in 1970, I think it was. AN HON. MEMBER: A great development. MR. NEARY: The master plan was there in the department. I left it behind me, Mr. Chairman, when I left the department. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NF.ARY: We had already started. Sir, we had established a hoae in Gander. Grand Falls. Corner Brook. approved one for St.

Anthony, approved one in principle for Grand Bank, Lewisporte .. AH HON. MEMBER: Wabana. MR. NEARY: No, not Wabana but that was in. the cards. I ·can tell the minister about that. We had a number of applications from Inter­ faith groups in other parts of Newfoundland that were under active consideration. Let me point out to the minister that it does not cost his government one penny, not a cent to build these homes. The Inter­ faith groups bon:owed the money from CMHC. All they need is a . ~ . , .. , guarantee · of occupancy from the minister's department.

The minister" stands here and says,~W.e cannot afford to bui~d all of these homes this year. 11 AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Now the minister did say it. ·well the minister certainly inferred it. "cannot afford to build all of these homes this year." The Inter-faith group all they ~sk for is a guarantee of occupancy from the minister's department. They, themselves, put some equity into it, either by the way of land or actual cash. They borrowed the ... 1110Dey from CMHC and I have never known CMHC to turn down an application. That is how those homes were built in Gander, Grand Falls and Corner Brook.

There were a number of others on the drawing cards. As a matter of fact, the one for Lewisporte, I think had already been approved. One for Grand Bank had been approved in 2878

March 29, 1974 Tape 951 (morning) PK~ 3 principle and St. Anthony had been approved. Remember the controversy we had about that one, about a year or so ago? That had already been approved. So the master plan was there. The only thing, Mr. Chairman, ia that the government is dragging its heals and that is why we do not have more beds for bedridden people in this province at the present time, because the plan was, Mr. Chairman to make Hoyles Home over here exclusively for bedridden patients, the home in Gander exclusively for bedridden patients. I am talking about a five year ~lan.

The one in Grand Falls, bedridden patients, the one in Corner Brook, bedridden patients. All the other homes, the small type homes,would all 2879 •

March 29, 1974 Tape No. 952 NM - 1 have ambulatory patients and not only that, Mr. Speaker, but we went far beyond that too,and the minister made no reference of this. We had a programme for looking after senior· 'citizens who wanted to remain in their own homes- What about __ them? We had meals on wheels programmes. We had assistance to help senior citizens who wanted to remain in their own homes, assistance to repair their homes, visitations and all sorts of other things. So there is nothing new in this, Mr. Chairman. The programme has been on the go now for four years.

We were also taking a good hard look at the newer part of the General Hospital when it is phased out, when the Health Science Complex is open here at the university~ We were taking a good hard look at the nurses' residence and at the newer part of the hospital to see if it could be converted into a home for nursing care. There is where the need is in this province, Mr. Chairman, nursing care. As far as I can see from the minister's answer,· not one move has been made in that direction, at least the minister did not indicate it. I can only assume that nothing has been done about it.

The Minister of Health can tell his colleague all about it because we have people occupying hospital beds that really should be in nursing homes. They really should, Mr. Chairman, free up the beds for people that can go in and be cured. So no wonder, Sir, they have 400 of a waiting list at the Hoyles Home, no wonder. I cut it down as much as 1 could when 1 was there. As far as I. can see.this government has not done a single thing about it. Another thing, Mr. Chairman, we had a plan for day-care centres. A lot of people in this province are interested in day-care centres. What has become of that plan?

Will the minister tell us what the government'• philosophy is on this, what they intend to d~ about it? They have a number of proposals. Have any of them been approved? What financial assistance will the people get? This is cost-shareable with the Government of Canada: The Government of Canada will match it dollar for dollar. What is being done about that? When the minister

March 29, 1974 Tape No. 952 NM - 2 stands up to answer some of these questions would he also tell us how much residents of senior citizens homes are paying now? What are the rates at Hoyles Home and all these other homes? How much of the Old Age Pension cheque is the individual allowed to keep now? Is it still the same as it used to be - $15? That I was always opposed to.Or has it been changed? What about Harbour Lodge? Sir, that defunct hotel that I took over when I was Minister of Social Services? Harbour Lodge now it is called. I changed the name to remove the stigma from it, Harbour Lodge. AN HON.

MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: I do not know what it was called, the Saddle Hill Motel or something. There are members on the government benches that can tell you the name of it. What about Harbour Lodge, Sir? There were big plans to extend Harbour Lodge, to put an extension on it. It was supposed to go up to about 250 beds. When I left the department the Harbour Lodge was about fifty per cent I would say occupied. What is the occupancy rate now? What about the extension?

We were told,as a result of a feasibility study that we did on that motel when we took it over,that it would not be feasible to operate it unless the extenaion were put on. Our decision was based primarily on the fact, Sir, that there was room for expansion and that the Government of Canada had approved an extension to that building. What has happened to that? Because, Mr. Chairman, my honourable col~eague, the member for Hermitage, put his finger right on it when he talked about this little twenty- four year old boy in the wheel chair, Sir, Harbour Lodge was taken over, Mr. Chairman, for mentally and ~ 2881

March 29, 1974 Tape 953 (morning) PK - 1 physically handicapped adults. There is where the need is in this province. Sir, the Minister of Health will be the first to admit that he is running an institution down there on Topsail Road that is a disgrace, a disgrace to any province in Canada, down in the old Sanatorium. I presume it is still operating. Closed down? What happened to the people, the residents that were in it? I am not talking about the T.B. patients, I am talking about the mentally and physically handicapped and the people who were prematurely senile. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: We are talking about what? All' HON. MEMBER: Hillview Lodge. MR. NEARY: Hillview Lodge? No I am talking about the old Sanatorium. DR. A. T. ROWE: The Waterford Hospital - MR. NF.ARY: The structure is still there, I do not care who is responsible for it, DR. A. T. ROWE: My department - MR. NEARY: Well who is responsible for it? Is the Minister of - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: The building is still there. The people are still in that fire trap. DR. A. T. ROWE: The Waterford Hospital is under a board. MR. NEARY: Pardon? DR. A. T. ROWE: The Waterford Hospital 15 under a board.

MR. l\"'F.ARY : I do not care what it is ~der, it is an utter disgrace. DR. A. T. ROWE: Nobody said so. We started to expand the place, spending money that they did n~t spend for years on the Mental Hospital. i-fR. fEARY : Mr. Chairman,! said the Minister of Health would be the first to admit and agree with me that it is a disgrace. DR . A. T. ROWE: We are doing something about it. MR. lIEARY: Well ;,,hat are they doing about it. The minister has not told us what they are doing about it. 2882

March 29, 1974 Tape 953 (mornin~) PK - 2 DR. A. T. ROWE: We are spending $4 million or $5 million out there. MR, NEARY: Doing what? DR. A. T. ROWE: Renovating the old buildings. MR, NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Health knows full well - DR. A. T. ROWE: I should not be involved, I am sorry! MR. NEARY: The Minister of Health knows full well, Sir, that putting these people in a mental instition is not the place to put them. They are incurable. They should be put in a separate institution, Sir, and that was the beginning of it. Harbour Lodge was the beginning of it.

The only thing is this honourable ~rowd did not follow through with the plans, Mr, Chairman, when they took over, The people are still forced, these helpless, these poor helpless people, unable to fend for themselves, Sir, are forced to live under primitive conditions, in a fire trap down on the Topsail Road. That is a fact, Sir, the ' Hon. the Minister of Health cannot deny that or the Minister responsible for Rehabilitation. Three years ago I started to do something about it, Sir.

Any man with an ounce of humanity in his blood at all, who is a true Newfoundlander, whoever had the privilege of visiting that fire trap down on the Topsail Road could not help but coming into this House and demanding that something be done about it. It is a disgrace to Newfoundland. Then in this Twenty-Fifth Year of Confederation, they are going lighting touches and having bicycle races, tinsel, guffaws and a- half a million for George McLean and a-half million for that one. MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member is not being relevant to the motion. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I am merely drawing a comparison.

I am trying to .. point out the priorities. Sir, while I had the opportunity to sit in the public gallery for four days,! had a good chance to see the priorities of this government. The first day I sat in the Speaker's gallery and heard the same minister who is piloting this Interim Supply Bill throur,h the House, talk about films and that sort 2883

March 29, 1974 Tape 953 (morning) PK - 3 of thing, Si.r, tit).sel, parties and refreshments. These poor people dawn there forced to live under these conditions, unable to loolt after themselves, no place to put th8!11 but down in tiu.t trap down on the Topsail Road. we started to do something about it, Sir, and unfo.rtunately this government have not followed through. 'larbour Lodge was just: a hu111ble beginning. I had the plans i:>n the drawing board fo.r enother institution fo.r iso of t .hese people. .Beca~e this is the real -problem in Newfoundland, Sir, the real problem,apa.rt from the homes fc,r nursing care, the mentally retarded 2884

March 29, 1974 Tape no. 954 Page 1 - MW and physically handicapped adults are in homes in Newfoundland today and are not really being cared for in the way that they should be cared for. Do you know what happens to a person, Mr. Chairman, when he becomes prematurely senile? Be is whacked down in that hovel and that is all you can call it, that hovel down on the Topsail Road, the old sanatorium. The Minister of Health was glad to get the tuberculosis patients out of that old sanatorium.

They should have made a more strenuous effort to get the other people out of it, Sir, and building another mental hospital is not the answer or putting an extension on the Mental Hospital. The minister knows that. That is not the answer! Why have they not done something about it? I would like for the Minister of Rehabilitation to take the press down there sometime and take them through that hovel. I would doubt that the minister has had the opportunity te visit that so-called institution. If he had, it would be number one on his priorities and not films by George McLean_nor bridge tournaments nor silver coins.

He would do something about it. Mr. Chairman, this government have no sense of priorities when it comes to the needs of the ordinary people of this province. I would like to know what the minister bas _in mind to do with this place. Is he going to leave these people in the hands of the Minister of Health and condemn them to a mental institution for the rest of their lives? I hope not, Sir. I think I asked the minister what the rate is at these homes. What about meals on wheels? We started a programme over at Hoyles Home,with the co-operation of the Victorian Order of Nurses, What has happened to that programme?

We intended to implement a similar programme right across Newfoundland and Labrador, not only for people who live in homes, in government operated homes but people who live in their own homes. I "would like to hear something about that. Mr. Chairman, I would like to hear the minister tell us whether dr not his government intend to build a senior citizens' home 2885

March 29,1974 Tape no. 954 Page 2 for the native population in Northern Labrador or if they intend to build a home at all anywhere in Labrador or is Labrador being forgotten again? We had plans and we were negotiating with the Grenfell people in Northwest River to build a small home, not a large one, a small type senior citizens' home in Northwest River for the native population. What about that plan? Mr. Chairman, I did not take the files with me when I left. All these plans were left behind.

I am sorry, Sir, that it is taking me so long to make my point but this is a matter that I do know s0111ething about and I had a tremendous interest in it when I was minister of that department, Sir. I was doing something about it. I have not seen any evidence of late, Mr. Chairman, that anything is being done about it. Mr. Chairman, what about the boys' and girls' training homes? Are we still operating the Boys' Home at Pleasantville and the Boys' Home at Whitbourne and the Girls' Home down on Waterford Bridge Road? Have they been switched around? Have they been closed up? What has happened there?

Perhaps the minister could tell us if that unfortunate incident that arose a few weeks ago has been cleared up. Mr. Chairman, these are just a few of the questions that I would like to put to the honourable minister, Mr. Chairman, before I take my scat, I want to remind him again that his philosophy is not new. The minister comes in and has the nerve to tell us that we are just now starting to look at smaller type homes, just beginning to look at them. He should have asked the director down in his department about it or his deputy minister. They know all about it.

The minister did say that or he certainly left that impression with me. I just want to set the record straight in this honourable House, Sir. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Chairman, I did not say that we were just beginning to look at it, this 288ii'

March 29, 1974. Tape 955 (Momin~) RH - 1 business of having sma_ller homes throughout the Province. I said we were looking at it. I did not say we just started. Before I answer some of these questions, it would seem to me, to only talk about drawing inferences from things which the honourable member seems to be doing, if I can draw an inference from his remarks today and in recent days, it would seem to me that if the honourable member's party were in pover today there would be no celebration at all for Confederation. swallow but - I find that kind of hard to AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

DOYLE: I have said it now. It was relevant when the honourable mem- ber said it. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. DOn.E: The day-care centres come under the Department of Social Services~ That policy is presently under review. The Harbour Lodge is operating at pretty well the full capacity and an extension is being seriously considered. The Waterford Hospital, as the honourable member well knows, comes under the Department of Health. Hillview Lodge,which he referred to,on Topsail Road,comes under my department and it is being renovated. The Homes for Special Care are still going on.

There has been a switch in the location for the boys, for the girls. The last question I' he asked: There has__been several incidents recently, I am·not quite sure which one he is referring to when he asked of a recent matter: AN HONOURABLE MF.MBER: Inaudible. MR. DOYLE: They all have a fair amount - MR. NEARY: Can the minister tell us about the several incidents because there are several we have not heard about. The minister could - go ahead, tell us about them all. MR. DOYLE: MR. NEARY: MR. DOYLE: MR. NEARY: They have all been settled. Yes, but what are they?

Which one is the honourable member referrin~ to in particular? The minister has aroused my curiosity. Now, Mr. Chairman, I would like for him to tell us what are the incidents? MR. DOYLE: Well, you mentio~ed this specific incident. Are you talking 2887

March 29, 1974. Tape 955 (Morning) RH - 2 Exon House or the Boys Home or exactly what is the honourable gentleman talking about? MR. NEARY: Yes. The answer is yes. HR. DOYLE: The answer is yes 7 MR. NEARY : Yes . MR. DOYLE: Well the Exon House case, as everybody well knows,was settled by a board. I understand that some of the people have taken the matter t'o the courts and therefore I will not discuss it any further. If the hon­ ourable member is referring to the unfortunate case at the Boys Home a month or so ago, the necessary and proper action has been taken in that matter.

Those are the only incidents I can think of offhand. The rates for homes, as the honourable member well knows, are in various categories. They have recently been changed and rather than toss out figures here now, I would like to get . the new changes and let him know later on today. They have only been changed in the last month or so. They have been increased, obviously. The honourable member is quite correct in his comments that the Senior Citizens Homes are funded by CMHC with very little difficulty. The Government's involvement is to guarentee ninety-eight per cent occupancy.

Those are the only notes I have, Mr. Chairman. If I have missed something, I will write them down again. If I have missed something I will write it down. That is all the notes I took. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister would undertake to find out if Exon House is fully staffed now because I have been hearing some very disturbing reports that all the staff positions at Exon Hcruse,especially the nursing staff, nursing assistants~ Sir. have been vacant for two years. Would the minister undertake to find out why this is? Is it because they cannot get staff?

Is it because of the controversy they had over there they cannot get staff to work at Exon House? What about the training pro­ gramme over there, the educational programme that we set up? Is that fun­ tioning now at full capacity? What about the social counsellors? How many do we have over there now? I think we star·ted off with five. 2888

March 29, 1974, Tape 956, Page 1 -- apb Two if I remember, quit a year ago under rather strange circumstances. What about this? Are these kids now just placed in Exon House, left there without eny attempt df rehabilitation? Is there any attempt to educate and train these children? Because that was the whole purpose of Exon House, Mr. Chairman. Does the minister have any plans to expanc the services for mentally and physically handicapped children? What is happening in the home up on Water Street West? Is that still in operation? How many children are up there? What about the staffing problems?

What about the problems with the officials? Have all these been ironed out? The reason I am so concerned about these matters, Mr. Chairman, is because you cannot have dissatisfaction or low morale in an institution of that sort. You cannot have it, Sir. If you do the whole institution deteriorates. I would like for the minister to tell us or assure the committee that all these matters have been cleared up. As far as celebrating Confederation is concerned, Sir, if that honourable crowd had their way I am sure we would not be celebrating the Twenty-Fifth Anniversary of Confederation this year. MR. -Doyle: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to know who is doing the celebrating? However, let us not get on tha~ one. To answer these questions, Exon House first: As the honourable member well knows, it has been, is and I presume will be for a long time . difficult to get the correct number of appropriately and properly trained staff for Exon House. Exon House now is pretty well up to full staff. There are a few vacancies which we are trying to fill. The turnover is much higher than I would like to see it and I am sure higher than the honourable member would like to see.

As to the educational programmes and the social counselling that is still going on. There is no change in that. Water Street West is still in existence. I did not come prepared at this time, perhaps I should have, with all the details as to how many are in each home. I would have thought and I ~ould be prepared to answer all these detailed questions when we get into the overall estimates. 2889

March 29, 1974, Tape 956, Page,2 -- apb rtorn1ng I do not have those figures in front of me nm. as to how many are in this home or that home but I will be prep~red for the estimates to answer all these detailed questions. ?-lR. filARY: Mr. Chairman, I realize the minister does not have all these statistics at his finger tips but when he starts reciting government philosophy in this honourable House, then, Sir, he gets me a little bit riled up and he better be prepared to start . . answering questions. When we get on the main estimates, Sir, I will · have a few choice questions for the honourable minister.

I have only one more question concerning Exon House for the minister. Was that elevator ever put in at Exon House? I remember we were debating it before I got flung out of the department, not flung out of the House, Sir. We were debating - as a matter of fact, I think we had called tenders to install an elevator at Exon House. Has that elevator ever been put in? It has not been put in yet? Two years have gone by and the elevator has not been put there yet? The experts, the officials, the independent _expertise, Dr. Stanley, we bad over from New Brunswick all said; "Put in an elevator." AN HON.

MEMBER: They have been on strike for two years. MR. NEARY: Who has been on strike for two years? The elevator companies? AN HON. !-'EMBER: No, the Tory Government. MR. NEARY: I think the Tory Government have been on stnke for two years, Sir, not the elevator companies. MR. W.N.ROWE: A sit-down strike. MR. NEARY: They have been on a sit-down strike as my colleague says. What is going to be done about that elevator? Is it ever going to be put in? Or will we have to wait for a change of government before we get it in? AM BON. MEMBER: We will wait some long then. MR.

NEARY: We will not have to wait much longer,I guarantee that. HR. W.N.ROWE: Another six months or so. AN HON. ME•.BER: It will not be long now. 2890

March 29, 1974, Tape 956, Page 3 -- apb MR •. REAR!:. Call the election and we will find out how long we wiU llave to wait. I am dead serious, Mr. Chairman -. I want to find out •bout that e-levator because we were told by all and sundry, including Dr. Nora Elphinestone-Jtcnouf-BrQWne. How 1a that? Now the spouse of o~e of 'my former colleagues in this honourable House, -who 1• - MR. W.N.ROWE: Cousi~ of .the Queen Mother too. MR. NEARY: cous,in of the QUetn Mother, Sir, who is to my knowledge the only medical practitioner, is that .the right tet1!d,nology? • 'J:b.e only one -in Newfoundland who has taken an interest in these children. The only one. 28"91

March 29, 1974 Tape No. 957 NM - 1 Dr. Pottle, Dr. Pottle I must say from the minister's department was a tower of strength when I was a minister down there. He was a tower ~f strength. But Dr. Renouf-Brown was really the only medical person who really took this work to heart and who made a study of it, practically devoted a large part of her life. She certainly had an intense interest, Sir, more than any other medical man that I know or woman in this province. I think, Sir, it was her recommendat-ion that that elevator be installed.

That home, Exon House, cannot function properly, Sir, and besides we were told by the Fire Commissioner, the Fire Commissioner told us it had to be put there because the fire escapes were unsatisfactory. So I would like for the minister to tell us what the plans are in this regard, Sir? It is no laughing matter. These little kids over there have to be brought up and down in people's arms. If members think it is a laughing matter, just sitting over there with the smirks and snears on their faces,why do they not go down and visit these homes?

Has the minister gone down to visit the homes on Water Street West and Exon House? I guarantee you if any member sitting on the government benches vent down there.he would not come in here with a grin on his face when you talk about - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: I am not referring to the Minister of Mines. He is not the only one over there. It is a very serious matter, Sir, when little children had to be lifted up and downatairs, not little children, some of them are big children, almost as big as the Premier.

So, Sir, it is a very serious matter and it is something that we intended to rectify and I would like to find out what the ainiater intends to do about it. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Chairman, I could not ag~ee with the honourable member more that it is a most serious matter and also I completely agree with his statement that members of this honourable House, on both sides, if they have not been in any one or more of these homes, they do not really grasp the seriousness and the unfortunate situation 2892

.... March 29, 1974 Tape No. 957 NM - 2 which these children and their fmnilies find themselves in. I would certainly like to endorse his remarks about Dr. Renouf-Brown. She is still performing admirably. As far as the elevator is concerned,! am hopeful that it will be installed in the coming fiscal year. MR.. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, just to get back on to the subject I was on earlier, the matter of the homes, I wanted to ask the minister also who takes the initiative in these matter•, I gather.

I have had some contact in relation to the Springdale effort which has·been going on for some time and which the minister referred and of course there are other efforts around the province he bas referred to. It seems to me that ~n all cases the initiative appears to come from the local community. Now there is certainly nothing at all wrong with that, nothing wrong with it, lt is rather admirable that people in the local areas are recognizing the need and wantin~ to do something about it.

But it does mean, de facto it does mean that if there be . an area where there is not a conununity leadership to do something about the need, there may well be large areas of the province, large areas in terms of population concentration, which would be completely neglected on this point. I am wondering if government has some overall plan whereby these regional homes he has mentioned would be on a

schedule or priority basis for va~ious parts of the province. Could he indicate whether government has that kind of plan? Who takes the initiative in getting a discussion going on homes in various areas? A further question: If government has that kind of plan, could he indicate to us either now or during the estimates what the priorities are for various parts of the province? MR. DOYLE: Yes, Mr. Chairman. In the first case the initiative has come from the local communities and in most cases it is coming from 2893

March 29, 1974 Tape 958 (Morning) IB-1 an inter-faith committee which is the way we would like to see it. At the present time we are plotting on a map the existence, the locations rather of the existing homes ·' , you know, in one color pin. We are locating in a different color pin the requests we have had from various parts of the province and then the obvious omissions or loopholes, geographically I am speaking of, will show up. If the initiative need to come from our department or from government for a certain area to make ·sure it gets covered, it will come that way.

I will be quite prepared and glad during the estimates to present the priorities to the honourable member at that time. MR. GILLETTE: Mr.

Chairman, very briefly because I do not think this is the time nor the place to discuss these things in detail but just as a matter of notation and of notice too to the minister and the government as well, we certainly and most sincerely hope in Twillingate that the hospital which is presently used will certainly be converted into a senior citizens home, particularly senior citizens who are bedridden or who need nursing care~ sort of a nursing home and a senior citizens home as well.

There was a time, I believe, when - we have been dealing with this as a board of directors for two or three years or more - there was a time, I believe, when it was considered by the for.mer administration that perhaps it would be cheaper to tear down the old building and construct a new one. I do not think that would apply today with the cost of building materials, with the cost of labour. I doubt very much whether that would be feasible today. We do have the structure there. Surely it is not suitable for a hospital again.

The physical plant, that is the heating plant, is just being held together now by men who know the plant so well that they are able to keep it working and keep it together. With new windows in the building and electric heat, there is no reason at all why the old hospital could not be turned into a senior citizens home. Of course, thi~ is one of the great hopes of the people of our area. They are definitely going to cry aloud against condemning 2894

March 29, 1974 Tape 958 (morning) IB-2 the old building altogether and beating it down. So, I just mentioned this, Mr. Chairman, to the minister and to the governmen~ that immediately the new hospital is completed and occupied; please be assured that as a board of directors of the hospital and as the citizenry of Twillingate, we will be going all out to try and turn the old building into a senior citizens home. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member for those remarks and I have taken due notice of them. On motion, Head 9, Rehabilitation and Recreation, carried. · Head 10, Health, $22.400,00Q. HON.

DR. A.T. ROWE (MINISTER OF HEALTH): The details for the months of April and May, the amount of $22,400,000 is made up as follows: The current expenditure, salaries, account fer $2,400,000. It is comprised of salaries in the amount of $1,200,000 for each of the months of April and May for employees in hospitals operated by government, doctors employed in district medical services, employees in public health facilities and employees at the headquarters. $15 million allocated for hospitals not operated by government in the amount of $10 million provided for A~ril and $5 million for the month of May.

This includes all operating costs 2895

March 29, 1974 Tape 959 (morning) PK - l salaries, supplies, equipment, heating, electricity, maintenance with respect to all of the hospitals in the province not operated directly by govenunent. The government hospitals in the amount of $700,000, requested the amount of $200,000 for April and $500,000 for the month of May. It includes the operating costs of government hospitals for expenses other than salaries. It covers items such as supplies, equipment, travelling, office expense etc.

The lower.amount requested for April is due to the fact that the greater proportion of payments relates to the payment of bills for services incurred in 1973-1974 which were charged to that year. The greater proportion of bills relating to April does not receive their pay until the month of May and hence the1 higher expenditure request for that month. The University School of Medicine, $550,000. The amount of $275,000 is provided for each of the months of April and ~Y, Miich represents the monthly grants which are paid in arrears to the School of Medicine to cover operating costs.

Under the heading of Other, $1,850,000: The item comprises four main components,the cost of drugs, supplies, appliances to persons in need as certified by the Department of Social Services. Dental fees with respect to Children's Dental Programme, laundry contracts with Laundry Services Limited, the payments to Newfoundland Medicare Commission for operating costs. The balance of the E1ount.shown uncer other, represents miscellaneous expenditures, travelling; office expenses for public health and general health divisions of the department. In capital, hospital construction grants, $1,900,000.

This amount represents construction costs for the following projects; Western Memorial Hospital, $700,000; Carbonear, $400,000; Notre Dame Bay Memorial, $300,000; Waterford, $300,000. The rental purchases of hospitals not operated by gove~ment, $200,000. So that is it. It accountsfor the $22 million, Mr. Chairman. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I take the minister's ft~ures, I did not add them up put I assume they come out to what he said they did. I have really only a very few questions because I think I shall reserve my 2896

March 29. 1974 Tape 959 (morning) PK - 2 comments on the health thing until the main estimates. when I will have adequate opportunity. As the House knows,we hope to clean up the Interim Supply by this afternoon by aix o'clock, so there are some other things. There are two or three things. I wonder, first of all, whether there has been any dicision made by the Premier, it is his prerogative but affecting this department, the appointment of a new deputy minister. Mr. Sellar~ . I believe is Acting Deputy, he is the Associated _ .. . Deputy.

I have no doubt, I have no personal knowledge of this of late of course, I have no doubt the strain is becoming very great on ·all of the senior officials, not just Mr. Sellars but I would assume all of the, you mig~t almost call them the management co111111ittee of that department, the three or four. six or eight men and women who are the top management people in what is a very large operating department. I wonder whether there is anyting new? Whether the minister is in a position to indicate when there might be a deputy minister appointed? DR. A. T. ROWE: Mr.

Chairman, there will be confirmation of the appointment of a new deputy minister within the very near future. It is nov being processed for cabinet. I do not think there is any· reason why I cannot mention the fact that with .confirmation of it, why it has not been coming. MR. ROBERTS: Well, certainly I would be delighted if Mr. Sellers were made deputy minister. I would say that he 1s a man I worked with myself and indeed recommended his appointment to his present position, as Associated Deputy Minister. I think the minister will have ... a good deputy and the government will have a good man.

I assume another medical person will be brought in that will then leave Dr. Colohan,present Assistant Deputy Minister ,the only full-time medical person in the top group. Now I am not sure what cousin Jimmy. Dr. Jim Roberts, he is a special adviser to the minister. I am not sure what his status is but the point is he is not in the chain of command. Re may have command but he is not in the chain of co11111and. 289"/

March 29, 1974 Tape 959 (1110rn:lng) PK - 3 DR. A. T. ROWE: •• ·• parts of the paper which will be announced in the very near future. MR. ROBERTS: Well okay that is fine. We will wait. The point is we need ••• The questions I have, Mr, Chairman, deal in the main, weli let me raise one district question first. One that is not unfamiliar to the minister, the Englee, Bide Ar:m, Roddicton, Cc:mche, Main l!rook ambulances situation. Could he tell us whether ther~ is anything new on that1 Now the last I heard 2898 •

March 29, 1974 Tape no. 960 Page 1 - MW The government, under the programme brought into effect in 1970 or 1971, have a programme under which they give ambulances to c0111Dunity groups. I suppose there have been thirty or forty ambulances given out. It is a very good programme. It is much like the volunteer fire brigade about which we hear so much. We have, in effect, volunteer @lbulance brigades in Newfoundland.

It is not as good as a programme in which we could hire ambulance drivers but until we reach that happy day, which hopefully will not be too much further away, we are in the position of having to make do with this programme. There was some talk that a grant would be given to the International Grenfell Association to compensate them and they would provide a driver for the ambulance. The Roddickton Area, Mr. Chairman, has a doctor in it. I know him quite well for he is my brother. He has been there since July and there was a doctor there before him. The doctor before him, Dr.

Patterson, was the first doctor ever to be stationed in that area. There was a health centre built at Roddickton and one is also at Port Saunders. I assume there will be others. There is one in Labrador South and one in Flower's Cove, that is certainly two. The people are still 150 llliles by road from the base ho_spital and the regional hospital at St. Anthony.

I do not know of any part of this province, with the exception of the Northern Coast of Labrador where people are as far from hospital services as they are in the Roddickton,Conche, Englee Area and in the comparable area over on the Straits, where I think you have the same situation in Port Saunders, Port au Chaix . and Hawkes Bay which again are about, in round figures, 150 miles from St. Anthony. Now, Mr. Chairman, there have been suggestions in the past of building a hospital but these have been rejected by everyb~dy who looked at it.

I think the present minister would agree that there is no need to build a hospital in the sense of a great, modern new facil~ty anywhere between St. Anthony and Bonne Bay. There 2899

March 29, 1974 Tape no.960 Page might be a need to replace the Bonne Bay Hospital or the Norris Point Hospital but the population is just not there. What we do need is an improvement in the transportation and the health centres which do provide doctors and x-ray and lab facilities on a basic level. Even now, if a person, if my friend, the Member for St. Barbe North, breaks his leg, he has to be taken seventy, eighty or ninety miles to St. Anthony to get an x-ray, even a simple fracture;

whereas, in Port Saunders and Roddickton, you can at least have the x-ray done there and if something has 2 to be handled by the medical officer there, it is handled and if it should need further treatment, of course, the patient has to be moved. Now that is the point. Mr. Chairman, I think we have a unique situation. I do not know of anywhere in Newfoundland where people are that far from their hospital. The Labrador situation would be different but you have the Northern Coast of Labrador where there is no poulation concentration.

I suppose Nain is the largest community on the Coa•t of Labrador,which has about 1,000 people at present I am told. The other conununities, Hopedale, Makkovik., Postville and David's Inlet are smaller,~d Rigolet. Mr. Chairman, there is an air ambulance and when the weather permits, which is pretty good, when the weather permits and people are seriously enough injured they can be moved by air. Surely air ambulances are not the answer to the medical needs, the non-emergency medical needs of the area. We come right back to the ambulances • ...

Through the minister's good grace, an ambulance was provided to the Town Council of Englee. That council, Mr. Chairman, is finding it an insupportable burden financially. The present Minister of Fisheries 1 think is familiar with the financial situation,in a general way,of Englee. They just do not have the cash to go hiring ambulance drivers~ It bas not proven possible at this stage to get all the councils in the area to come together on it. 'Whether they should or should not is anotner matter and I think they are in the same position as 2900

March 29,· 1974 Tape no.960 Page 3 · most councils throughout Newfoundland. They have little enough to do what they 111U11t do in the municipal sense. I ask the minister whether any progress has been made because if nothing is done, the information which I have, which comes from - not from my brother, he is reluctant to talk to me about medical problems in the area - the councils inwlved who I believe had a delegation in recently to see the minister,Pastor Reid from Bide Am, representing the councils in the area. I know the Minister of Industrial Development will be glad to hear that. MR.

DOODY: I met the gentleman. MR. ROBERTS: I met the gentleman on vacation too. Be is a most amenable gentleman, a very fine gentlemazi., a great fighter, a great developer and entrepreneur of considerable scale and ability. MR. DOODY: Durability. MR. ROBERTS: I might add durability. 2901

March 29, 1974. Tape 961 (Morning) RH - 1 He certainly is a most amazin~ man to me, 8ut my understanding from that brief and correspondence from the mayors brief is that unless something be done about that then the service is going to collapse and then we are right back to the start. The voluntary list will not work over one hundred and fifty miles of bad, dirt road, I ask the minister now whether anything is going to be done and hopef~lly, I urge him to state something can and will be done. DR. ROWE: Mr.

Chairman, as I remember there are two main problems associated with the operation, One is that the community council there are not getting the support of other councils in the area. There are four or five that combine, requested the ambulance,but now they are not making any contribution towards this operation, The second point is that the community council there have hired a driver who apparently does little else for an amount of money, I do not think I have to give the amount of money but it is more than the subsidy which Government pays. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: $400 a month. DR.

ROWE: Well, they are paying $5000 a year for doing this. Well, the subsidy that we give them. of couse as you know is $100 over a year, in areas where most of the ambulances are operated by volunteer drivers. In this particular case it is not a volunteer driver. It is a person who has made this; as I understand this is pretty well his full time occupation. He may well_have other interests, I do not know. I think the number of trips he has made since the ambulance came was something like ten which worked out to be a very expensive cost for that time. However, they were in and we discussed the situation.

They have gone back to do one or two things. One is to talk to the other council about any question of any support , they can give. The second thing which I told them was that we are at the moment.and this is not a secret, revising the whole ambulance programme of the Province, We are all very aware and I am sure that you were that there is quite a financial hardship to individuals fotthe cost of transportation and so I have indicated to them that hope- fully our new progr;mme will come into operation later when we will be able to do something worthwhile for them. 2902

March 29, 1974. Tape 961 (Morning) RH - 2 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I agree with the minister that the present programme whi~h I offer to the minister is certainly not the ultimate. It is better than what went before but certainly anything that can. be done to improve it should certainly be done. I think we have a unique si~uation in this area.

The driver, of course, George Compton, made his living in the last few years driving people, on a commercial basis, back and forth to St, Anthony, running a very good service and providing a very good service and providing a commercial service, most of which was paid for by the Department of Welfare, on travelling butPironically enough,when the doctor come into Roddington one of the effects of this, of course, wast~ cut the amount of travelling needed and thereby saving the Welfare Department a sub­ stantial sum of money and at the same time having the effect of putting George Compton largely out of business.

He had an investment in a Sunday school bus, twelve or fourteen passenger bus, a van~and anything providing excellent service. The minister, I know has sheets of testi- mony ~s do I, everybody in the area with any public position is saying that George Thomson is doing a terrific job. Well we are now in the position where unless something can be done and the obvious way I suggest is to make a grant to the IGA. The same sort of thing is done in Corner Brook, Mr. Chainnan. Here in St.

John's we have had it for fifty yearE, I do not know the situation in Carbonear or the northshore of Conception Bay, I know it is done in Gander. I know it is done at Grand Falls. I know it is done in Happy Valley. I know it is done at St, Anthony. In all of these places, the Government, it is not PC or Liberal , I mean all these places to my knowledge were getting ~ the support during my ten years as minister and I assume during the ten years of my predessors. All is needed is, in effect, to put one extra unit in the budget of the IGA, $5000 or $6000, what ever the going rate is and they would then hire Mr.

Compton. We would have the service, The Welfare Department would charge, anybody would be charged for anybody who had to go up to St. Anthony;in the appropriate way. It is fairly sirple and I think it is justified. I know that there are 2903

March 29, 1974. Tape 961 (Morning) RH - 3 other coTIDDunities who are providing a volunteer ambulance service but I would think there is nowhere else in Newfoundland where we are looking to volunteers ~o provide service one hundred and fifty miles of dirt road each way and I do uot think that is realistic, even in Port aux Basques. which is one hundred and twenty miles from the regional facility of Corner Brook and where the Lions Club have performed magnificently in the last five or six years, even in Port aux Basques, Mr. Chairman, they have •a: hosp~tal, thirty-seven or forty bed hospital.

It does a certain level of work. In Roddington there is no hospital. There is a public health centre that has some beds in·it but these are used to hold for urgent victims or for some types of maternity work or where persons come in 1 with a bad cold and the doctor says "I would like you to stay overnight for observation". They are not hospital beds in any medical · sense of the word and nobody pretends that they are. So, we have a unique situation and I think it is one that 2904

March 29, 1974 Tape No. 962 NM - 1 justifies a unique response and you know I have spoken to the minister outside. We have had conversations on this but I do want to renew it because something is going to happen and what is going to happen is that the thing is going to collapse. There will be a machine there that nobody is using. There will be no way to get people back and forth. I think the figure is far more than tentative. I from memory understood it was sixty but whether it is one or - I mean all we need is one debt.

There is now no way, and the minister would agree with that, there is no way to move a person from Roddickton or Englee or Bide Arm or Conche or Main Brook, four or five thousand people in that area~to St. Anthony either in an air ambulance or in the back seat of a car, no way except the ambulance and that is why we have the ambulance. So I renew my plea and I know the minister is working on a new policy but that is a bigger thing.

I mean one might be able to make a justifiable exception and to give the I.G.A. or for that matter give the council, I could not care less if it be the I.G.A. or the council but to make it possible to have a man taken on full time so _that the service can be provided to the people. DR. ROWE: That is an important point that I should have remembered and I apoligize for not mentioning_.Of course, the whole health service in the area are under the aegis of the I.G.A. and I was surprised that I they had not discussed this problem wi·th any I.G.A. officials before they came in,and one of the things that - MR.

ROBERTS: Inaudible. DR. ROWE: Well they have not been too anxious. Dr. Th01Das apparently - MR. ROBERTS: Well I do not know about that. DR. ROWE: Because there is some arrangement now with Flowers Cove and the I.G.A. operation and I have asked them to let me have the indications as to what Dr. Thomas feels about this. Anyway the man that you mentioned, Pastor Booth Reid,is coming ha.ck, either 2905

March 29, 1974 Tape No. 962 NM - 2 writing me or when he gets in touch with the other councils and with Dr. Thomas to let me know if they can do anything or not. We will then see what we can do. I quite appreciate that there is a need that there is transportation required and that it cannot stop once it has been started. AN HON. MEMBER: Like the school bus system. MR. ROBERTS: Well I think the minister has made his point and I have made mine and I hope it will work out and I believe the minister is quite genuine and will try. There are four capital projects, five that I would like to enquire about.

Two of them are underway. I would like to know what the current cost estimates are on the Carbonear Hospital, the regional hospital which started while I was minister over there,and the Health Sciences Centre ,which again was started during my period as minister,over here in the Prince Philip. I do not need them in detail. The original estimates of the Health Science Centre I think were $45.6 million of which $30 million came from Ottawa and $15 million came from us, with us bearing any increase, unless Ottawa agreed to give more.

But Carbonear started at $6 million and then a year ago it was $11 million or $12 million, speaking from memory, Mr. Chairman, I think my memory is correct, I would like· to know what it is now.? Could the minister indicate when we shall see a start on construction on the new regional hospital in Clarenville? I woul·d like to know the size of that as well and what type of work is to be done there and also - I am glad the gentleman from Bonavista South has once again honoured us by his presence. It is nice to see him once in a while.

The new hospital at Bonavista, I would like to know how large that is to be and when it is to s t,rt? Finally if .he could tell the committee, Mr. Chairman, what is the situation at Port aux Basques! I attended a public meeting out there,at the request of the Lion's Club, a meeting called by them.and we had . 2900 ...

March 29, 1974 Tape No. 962 RM - 3 a long talk about the need for a new hospital and all of that sort of thing. It was a few days after a delegation from the council had seen the Minister of Health. I should add,Mr. Walters, the Chairman of the Hospitals Boards,was there. Everybody who had anything to do with the hospital was at the meeting, a big crowd. I think four or five of the councillors who met with the 1 I minister spoke briefly to the meeting and the point of their remarks was what exactly the minister had said.

Now this is a classic case of three witnesses to one, Your Honour is in private life a lawyer and Your Honour has had witnesses, two witnesses see the one accident and one swears that the black car hit the man in the brown suit and the other swears that the green car hit the man in the yellow suit and both believe genuinely what they are saying. We have a classic case because I think if there were four or five people who spoke of their meeting with the minister, there were four or five different impressions of exactly what had been said.

Some· people felt that the minister had said Port aux Basques would get a new hospital, a forty or fifty bed type institution.and that it would start soon, possibly this year that the planning work would start and possibly construction. Others felt that the minister had been no where near as definite. He had been very sympathetic, very much inclined to try to help but point 2907

March 29, 1974 Tape 963 (morn i ng) IB-1 out that there were many difficulties or there were priorities. Persons quoted the minister as saying there was a list of priorities. Some said that Port aux Basques was high on the list of priorities. Others had it considerably further down. So, all I ask now is if the minister could make a brief statement to the committee to indicate just where the Port aux Basques hospital stands and then the other four that I mentioned. DR. ROWE: Mr.

Chairman, as far as Port aux Basques is concerned, the councillors that came in came in between two reports, one the Health Facilities Design that looked at the physical plant in Port aux Basques, whose report had recently been received and sent to the board,and before the Federal Provincial Task Force had given their report in Port aux Basques.

What I have said to the councillors in effect was that until we have the report of the federal-provincial we will not make any final decision on this but it is quite possible from what I know, that we will in our priorities have to eventually provide a new hospital for Port aux Basques. I gave no indication as to when this might be. Indeed I do not know when it might be. I could tell you the two spots now. We have something organized for Bonavista.

We have Placentia and Port aux Basques which are probably the next two cottage hospitals that have to get either complete face lifting or something new in the way of facilities. The councillors, I am sure the majority must have remembered that we have minutes recording the meeting which I could produce if necessary whic~ was to the effect that yes, we know that there are considerable problems. We are waiting for the federal,provincial people to tell us what their expert opinion is.

It is my own feeling that we will have to,within the foreseeable future, provide some either ungraded or new facilities for Port aux Basques. I think that was a fair, true statement of what I said. As far as Bonavista is concerned, our plans have not changed to provide the twenty-five bP.d hospital for Bonavieta. I believe that there vas some concern among the people down there and the committee 2908

March 29, 1974 Tape 963 (morning) IB-2 meeting with the Premier recently. As I understand it, the statement was that they themaelves wished to have a hospital of sixty beds. That I understand, because they originally wanted one hundred and .cwenty beds They are now talking about sixty beds, but to my knowledge no promise has be~n made that we will ~o beyond the twenty-five which have been reco111111ended by the experts. MR. NEARY: Is this a new hospital or an extention on the old one. DR. ROWE: lo, it is eventually to be a new one to replace the old one. AN HONOURABLE 'ME'MBER: When will it start? DR.

ROWE: Well, we called the first phase, the new outpatients last year. We got no tenders. We are calling that again now. When they have finished that, it will be a continuous phasing in. MR. ROBERTS: How long will this take then, Mr. Chairman? DR. ROWE: Well, I do not know. If I give a figure, it will be said eventually that I was misleading the House. I do not want to mislead the House but surely one can say that if we can ~et the first phase started this year, we look forward to completion in two to three years. That would be a reasonable assessment. MR. NEARY: Is the first stage to build on to the old hospital?

DR. ROWE: No, the first stage is to build a building in front of the old hospital. Then the old hospital becomes removed and the new one ,gets in between. MR. ROBERTS: Well, Sir, could the minister then outline the various phases? DR. ROWE: Right. The first phase that we have the money for and that we have tendered for is the new diagnostic and outpatient department.

The great need, as I saw it when I was in Bonavista,which is being confirmed by other people that have visited there,is that their present outpatient and diagnostic facilities are cofflpletely inadequate, completely antiquated and this new outpatients, new diagnostic outpatients department is the most urgent need. This is the first phase that is to be done. 2909

March 29, 1974 Tape 963 (morning) MR. NEARY: When will it be completed? DR. ROWE: Well, they have not even, you know - MR. ROBERTS: Have tenders been called? DR. RO~'E: The tenders are on their way out now as my friend and colleague has been able to confirm MR. NEARY: Any target date on it? DR. ROWE: Pardon me? ?-IR. NEARY: No target date? DR. ROWE: I do not have a target date, Public Works I think might IB-3 be able to. Now, as far as Clarenville is concerned,the regional hospital - .AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Hold it, hold it now! Let us go on! MR.

ROBERTS: The minister was going to tell us about the different phases. The first one was this diagnostic thing. I suspect our questioning has thrown him off the track. DR. ROWE: Sorry1 Well, that is the first phase, the new diagnostic outpatients center. The next phase is the provision of the in-patients facility of twenty-five beds which will follow the construction of the first phase. MR. ROBERTS: Two-phase. DR. ROWE: Yes. The in-patient and the out-patient facilities. MR. ROBERTS: Well~ when phase one is finished, phase two will begin? DR. ROWE: We go into phase two.

That is the plan • .AN HONOURABLE ME~ER: Right away? DR. ROWE: That is my programme. AN PONO-GRABLE !-(EMBER: Do we have a fiTI!I commitment? 1-ffi. ~EARY: The Premier has already told the people down there. Do ve have a firm commitment from the minister? DR. ROWE: You have a commitment now that we are going to make it a continuous operation. HR. NEARY: I know but what year? DR. ROWE: Pardon? MR. NEARY: What year? 2910

, March 29, 1974 Tape 963 DR. ROWE: Wel1, we are starting in 1974 41 hopefully. MR. NEARY: Going to buMd an aut-patients facility. DR. ROWE: A whole new out-patients, "'1l. NEARY: Now, the moment that is finished, will the second phue begin? DR. ROWE: Hopefu1ly. MR. NEARY: Hopefully. I mean, why be so indeciaivel Why not - IB-4 DR. ROWE: What are the construction problems going to be in a years time! I do not know. I could only indicate that our progrmnme is to make it a continuous programme. MR.

NEARY: We are hoping to be over on that side by then so hopefully is not - AN RONOtmABLE MID4BER: ·· Let us hope the hospital is finished before that. DR. ROWE: Right or they might have to wait ten years like some other places had to wait. For Clarenville the- 2911 •

MR. CHAIRMAN: If the honourable minister would permit me? AN HON. MEMBER: Sure. MR. CHAIRMAN: Honourable members, according to the rules, they should only speak when they have the floor. If this rule is abused, of ·course, honourable members will get shafe back and accordingly we shall have a very disorderly gathering. So I will ask honourable members to keep that in mind. DR. A. T. ROWE: On the Clarenville Hospital, Mr. chairman, the ~ituation is that the site has now been finally obt~ined. The progra111111e is for 138 beda.

The functional planning has been done and again my colleague is able to mention something about the possible architects. AN BON. MEMBER: Inaudible. DR. A. T. ROWE: It depends on when they get their design, sketches drawn. I would hope but I would have to leave that question for somebody else. We have told them what they want. We have asked them to build it. On the question of the costs involved in Carbonear, I am not familiar with the latest costs but I am sure my colleague, the Minister of Public Works,is able to give us some ~igure.

On the Health Sciences I can tell you that a recent communication that I saw indicates that in spite of everybody's amazement they are still on budget, (inaudible). AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. DR. A. T. ROWE: They are still on budget. That is what they maintain at the moment. I do not think there are any other questions that I missed. MR. NEARY: Well are all the contracts called yet? Have they called the - MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: If the Minister of Public Works will not answer the question - have all the contracts been called? ~- ROt:SSEAU: No, there are still some major contracts to be called and there are still (what is it that they call it?) design considerations but the last report we had,which was on the 28th. of February,from the 2912

I' March 29, 1974 Tape 964 (morning) PK - 2 people, they sa:.d that the thing is still on cos_t, I am sorry,on budget,and still the time frame of early 1976 may be beaten. It is still feasible for late 1975; that is the report we have. It is still $45 million but they will be in a better position within tvo months, a month or two after give out these larger contracts and the design cons~derations to let them know. So right now the last reports says $45, 600,000. MR. ROBERTS: ~ell we will wait and see. It shows how good was Harvey Self and the organization brought in.

Could the minister tell us anything for the reasons indicated by the Minister of Health about the Clareoville situation or what is going to be done there this year? MR. ROUSSEAU: We are looking at the design,of course. There are a couple that we ,muld like to look at. We would like to try and include them in a group rather ~han do one individually. We have a couple involved and I vill answer that more clearly,if I may, when I do my own estimates in Public Works. But we will be looking for architects in the fairly near future, to provide the design for the Clarenville Hospital. MR.

ROBERTS: Just so I will understand that, Mr. Chairman, no architects have yet been appointed in respect of Clarenville. Is that a correct statement? MR. ROUSSEAU: We had one small problem there. We had the land for the hospital ane before we said anything about it we wanted to ensure that that land was available, that it was crown land. So we have just now in the past week or two been, you know, certainly we had to get survey~ on it, lt was certain that the land was available. Now that the land is available we are ready to go ahead on that. MR. ROBERTS: I find that an ingenious answer at best.

I do not doubt the truth of what the minister says but the government of this province have the power to take land where it is necessary. Indeed as we saw earlier in the week, the legislature can authorized the government to take BRINCO, if need be. I mean that is quite within 2913

March 29, 1974 Tape 964 (morning) PK - 3 our competence. I suggest the answer is at best ingenious and that people u1ay well feel there has been some, shall we say, delaying on the matter. Be that as it may~ Architects will be appointed shortly for this Clarenville Hospital? MR. ROUSSEAU: I will let the honourable member know when I do my estimates. MR. ROBERTS: Well, you know, it is the Minister of Health who has to ask for the money. MR. ROUSSEAU: Within the fairly near future architects will be authorized to proceed with plans for the Clarenville Hospital. MR. ROBERTS: Well that is fine. I thank the minister.

Could he indicate, now again he cannot make a commitme_nt, I realize, but could he indicate to the committee, Mr. Chairman, what sort of time span architects need to design a facility such as the Clarenville Hospital? Indeed, what are going to be the instructions to the architects? That may be more for the Minister of Health, who is in effect the client; the Minister of Public Works is in a service function. But how many beds are there to be there and what kind of beds are they to be? DR. A. T.ROWE: I do not have the breakdown with me but we have the functional planning study which can be made ayailable.

The number of maternity beds, the number of surgical beds, the number of medical beds 2914

' ,. March 29, 1974 . Tape 965 (morning) PK - 1 all have been worked out. MR. ROBERTS: I thank the gentleman. I mean I would love to see the functional planning studies on Clarenville and for that matter on Bonavista. Now that the government have decided their position there is surely no reason why they cannot be made available. So in round figures, 140 berls in Cla~enville. Do I understand the minister will send me the functional - DR. A. T. ROWE: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Well I asked for the functional plan but I mean that is up to the minister what he gives me. .

Okay, let us come back to the architects: What sort of time span do the architects need to design 140 beds? That is a large hospital, that is $50,000 a bed, which is minimal I suggest. Re is talking $7 millions. MR. ROUSSEAU: Architects and with the need, of course, to have the department looking at it as well, I would say probably two, three, maybe four months. I will undertake to find out more definitely from the department before my estimates come up this afternoon. t would guess two, three or four months. MR. ROBERTS: Well, the minister will find a little more.

But are we then to indicate that say within - once the plans are drawn the govern­ ment will be ready to proceed to tender? Bow is the Clarenville Hospital? The minister confirmed that the position is that tenders will be proceeded with as soon as the architects are ready to call the tenders. Fine. Who is to run the Clarenville Hospital? That is the Health Minister now. DR. A. T. ROWE: It is our hope that it will be run by the board of management in the same way we are operating cetain other hospitals hut there has been no specific decision made on this.

I hope it will not be run as cottage hospitals by government but rtm as a regional hospital or an area hospital by a board developed by persons with expertise in the area. That wjll be my hope. MR. ROBERTS: Well certainly that is the policy and was the policy of six Ministers of Health. lt transcends partisanship entirely, the policy of getting the department out of a business of day~o--day operations. ' Indee.d, I assume that shortly all the other cottage hospitals will be 2915

March 29, 1974 Tape 965 (morning) PK - 2 out, as Springdale, - but that is another story. May I suggest to the minister, and I do so quite seriously and I think it is a very good suggest,that there might be a great deal of merit in constituting a board now, at least a partial board, both there in Bonavista and in - well in Port aux Basques there is one. In the General Hospital there is one. Have a board so that right from the functional planning stage on they can be involved. The men and women who will operate it as the board,in due course would have a great deal to offer.

But also I would suggest there would be a great deal to be said for involving people in the area now, so if there is any feeling that this hospital has been imposed on the catchment area, the people to be served by it,then thAt feeling could be obviated and lessened. I put it forward; I think it is a very good suggestion. We would have saved,the people of Newfoundland would have saved a lot of public grief if there had been similar boards set up say fifteen years ago or twenty years ago in - there was one in Carbonear - in places such as Gander and Grand Falls.

I put it forward both for Clarenville and for Bonavista, Finally, what about the Grand Falls Hospital? When can we expect s~me action on that? DR. A. T. ROWE: Again, Mr. Chairman, I do not want to be interrupted­ the statements of my colleague (inaudible). All the studies have been done. The architects are about to be appointed for the plans for the expansion which have been accepted and I do not see that there was any further problem with regards to the Central Newfoundland Hospital • • ne plans have been approved for the extension. Mr.

Chairman, I just want to, this is for the sake of clarification, I am sure the Minister of Mines and Energy will want th1~ clarified too a~d the Member for Burin is not in his seat. With thi! 140 bed hospital for Clarenville,that rules out any hope ~hatsoe,,er of a net.1 hospital on the Burin Peninsula! Is this r:y understanding from the minister that this new hospital in C~arenville -..,ill serve the needs of the people on the Burin Peninsula 2910 •

,.. March 29 1 1974 Tape 965. (morning) PK - 3 or will there be a new hospital on the Burin Peninsula? DR. A. T. ROWE: In answer to the honourable member's question, it does no,t in any way change any ideas or progranaes that we have for the development of hospital services on the Burin Peninsula. All of this will be made known in due course. MR. NEARY: Well vould the minister tell us what the plans are to develop a new hospital out on the Burin Peninsula? DR. A. T. ROWE: I do not have the authority yet to release the details on what is planned for there. This will be made known in the very near future. HR.

NF.ARY: Well I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if the minister could indicate when he will be in a position to make an announcment on the hospital for the Burin Peninsula? Will it be a month? Six months? A year? Could we pin it down? DR. A. T. ROWE: In the fullness of time, I guess when the House passed some estimates in the near future. MR. NF.ARY: ·Mr. Chairman, when the minister comes in with his regular estimates into the House, will he be able to give us an indication then when we can expect some action on the Burin Peninsula Hospital? DR. A. T. ROWE: Hopefully, Mr. Chairman. MR.

NF.ARY: Hopefully is the minister's pet word. _ MR. ROWE1 W.N~ I have a question, Mr. Chairman, it is not on the same scale at all as compared to ~hose 2917

March 29, 1974 Tape 966 IB-1 already asked or partially ans1.1ered. No1,1 this one is, however, important . too, I think.to the people concerned. I have had two or three calls from Clarenville, not on a partisan basis at all. I do not know what politics the people who have called me up had if they have any. They are all concerned about this young fellow(Mercer is itjgoing out of the ambulance business there. I believe it is Ike Y.fercer's son if I am not mistaken although I do not know him. I was not talking to him .

He apparently is going out of the business because, although he has a fully equiped ambulance and is providing a very enthusiastic service there,apparently a very conscientious service, he is going out of the business because of a ' difficulty in ~etting any government subsidy or pay for welfare trips or whatever it is. Two or three people there, maybe more but two or three persons called me up in order to say they are very concerned about the situation. Now, I do not know any of the facts involved.

One of the persons who called me up said that we are going to be left with a person who is driving a station wagon for an ambulance. I do not 1Ow if that is true or not. Could the minister give some facts on this? DR. ROWE: The honourable Leader of the Opposition asked this question a few days ago about the operation of the Clarenville ambulance and I tried to explain it at that time. Mr. Mercer has been running an ambulance service and an undertakers service. He has had considerable deficit over the past year.

He is a private ambulance operator and there is nothing in the present policy of government which allows us to subsidize private ambulance operators. Our programme is we assist those who are doing it as coumunity enterprises or as nonprofit orp,anizations but we do not have anything in our present programme to assist private operators . However, I realize that there will be some rather downgradin~ of service when his ambulance comes off the road.hut there is another ambulance operator in Clarenville. There is the nrovision of the community ambulance at Sunnyside and the service will not he dishanded completely.

It may not be perhaps the sam~ superior type that they 2918

,. March 29, 1974 Tape 966 IB-2 may feel they , are getting now but they will not be bereft of ambulance services. As I mentioned earlier,in our new programme · perhaps this sort of problem no longer exists. MR. NEARY: Mr, Chairman, do I understand it from the minister that there are no subsidies at the moment for private ambulance services! It is just fee for service? Is this the understanding? Although in the City of St. John's the ambulan .ce service is provided by the General Hospital, I presume - is this free or do the people have to pay for it or is it only free for people on Social Assistance?

I am sure the member for Harbour Grace must have some very strong feelings on this matter. Why does he not get up and express his views because you know, if the minister does not implement some kind of a prograJ11111e of subsidization or a programme operated directly by the department, the whole system is just going to collapse all over the province. The member for Harbour Grace, I hear his ambulance going by my house once in a while and I am sure he has some pretty strong views on this. Perhars he could tell us what the solution to the problem is. DR.

ROWE: As I mentionedlit has not been the policy of any previous administration and indeed not yet the policy of this govemment that we subsidize private operations. The community progra111111e is well known, and as far as anybody who is on social service or receiving indigent allowance, the ambulance is paid for on a fee-for-service basis, On motion Head 10, Health, carried. MR. SPEAKER: It now being one of the clock, I do now leave the Chair until three of the clock this aftemoon. 2919

Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd . Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY , MARCH 29, 1974 SPEAKE R: T HE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 37

March 29, 1974 (Afternoon) Tape No. 967 NM •- 1 The committee resumed at 3:00 P.M.: MR. CHAIBMA."i: Order please? The Minister· of Education wishes to answer some _questions that were put to him this morning. MR. OTTENHEIMER, Minister of Education: Mr. Chairman, with respect to two questions asked by the honourable member for Bell Island, one with respect to foster children. There are 1.088 children altogether in 490 homes and with respect to the blind there are 290 people receiving allowance for · the blind.

In both of these areas, in the allowances for both of,the e areas, government is •are of rising cost of living and active consideration is being given to the allowances . in terms of the next year. All ll>N. MEMBER: There will be no increase in last year 1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: No. HEAD ll - MINES AND ENEBGY - $4 million. MR.. ·CHAIRMAN: The honourable the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. L. BARRY, Minister of Mines and Energy: Mr.

Chairman, the amount of Interim Supply allocated for the Department of Mines and .Energy is $4 million and this is bro~n down into salaries - $120,000; current account - $3,600,000 and capital account - $280,000. Salaries - I - think it is self-evident what this is for. Current account, the normal functioning of the department and to get a tart on the projects that are to be commenced this year, geological mapping J.n different areas of the province.

It is necessary to expend fmlda on salari!!5, meals, accommodations, transportation costs, etc. and also for the mineral development programme which is the programme cost-ahared with the federal government. There will be an an amount needed to cover the . . salaries of existing staff, to hire students in May,,to purchase· equipment such as vehicles, boats, tents, canoes and so on, not for the minister~s fishing trips but to assist field parties. MR. THOMS: Any going down the Gander River? MR. BARRY: I do not think there will be any going to the Gander liver nor to the federal fishing lodge in Labrador. 2920

March 29, 1974 Tape No. 967 NM - 2 MR. BA,RRY: Mr. Chairman, I will 'be happy to.answer a11y questiou.s that arise. Included in this amount is the.sum of $1,102,000 fo"r the rural electricity authority. $111 609,000 for the Newfoundland and Labrador Power Commission, under the Industrial Incentives Act. $500,000 to the Power Commission for generating capacity and the figure for capital account - $280,000 is $60,000 to get a start on construction of the mineral laboratory in the Crown Land and Surveys combined building, which is cost-shared by the federal government. 2921

March 29, 1974. Tape 96R (Afternoon) RH - 1 that is about it. I am sorry, $220,000.00 for capital account in the Rural Electrical Authority. MR. S • NEARY : Mr. Chairman, I must say that since the new Department of Mines and Energy was former, Sir, that we were expecting great things from this department and from the minister but it has turned ·out to be a ~e~ great disappointment, Sir. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: A flash in the pan. MR. NEARY: A flash in the pan, that is all it is. The minister himself, on a number of occasions, Sir, has shown beyond any doubt that he is com­ pletely incapable of making decisions.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: It is indecisive. I was sitting in the public gallery, Sir, for four days, as Your Honour well knows,and I heard the minister reply to or take exception to an

article in the "Evening Telegram" and I tried I to listen to the minister's explanation as much as I could, Sir. I paid very strict attention to what he was saying and I must say, Mr. Chairman, it was the biggest lesson in double talk that I ever heard in vry life. Instead of clearing up this matter o~ granting the insurance for the power Commission to another company, the minister .merely created more suspicion, Mr. Chairman.

It was obvious to me, Sir, as I listened to his answer in the public gallery that he, himself, the minister himself, either over­ ruled the Power Commission or the minister was overruled by his cabinet colleagues; one or the other, Sir, ;t had to be. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: · Inaudible. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon. AN HONOUKABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Cabinet makes the final decisions, Sir, but that is what I am leading up to.

What I want to ask the honourable minister is what he rec011111ended, Did he recommend that this new company cover the insurance down at the Power Commission or did the minister himself.overrule the Power Commission, Sir?·• All we have heard, Sir, from the minister of this department is wishy-washy statements, indecisive statements, Sir, no factua~ ·•trai~htforward answers, just straight double-talk, Sir, is all 2922

March 29, 1974. Tape 968 (Afternoon) RH - 2 we have heard from this department in the past two years, no clear-cut policy, Mr. Chairman, no clear-cut policy from the minister. Then they go off to Ottawa, Sir, and they are still nodding their heads across Canada. That is the position that this Province took. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg): With the co-operation of the honourable mem- ber for Bell Island, I would like to welcome to the public galleries students from two schools, St. Augustines Elementary and Joseph R.

Smallwood Collegiate in Wabush, grade VI students. twenty in number~with their teachers, Miss Patricia Walsh and Miss Patricia Murphy. I trust that your visit here will be interesting and informative and I welcome you here on behalf of the honourable members. MR.

NEARY: Then, Sir, we saw the position that the Province took at the very important energy conference that was held in Ottawa when the Government of Canada were trying so desperately to keep Confederation in­ tact and little old Newfoundland sticking out like a sore thumb, everybody else out of step except Newfoundland said, ''No, we are not going to go along with your one-price policy across Canada." The minister nodds his head. Sir, that is the position that Newfound­ land took at that conference and now we see the Minister of Justice going up, the Premier could not· attend because he was ill.

He did not think it worth his while to send up the honourable Minister of Mines and Energy, the expert, sent up the Minister of Justice to the conference and did a complete turnabout, turned himself inside out, summersault and then 2923

March 29, 1974 Tape no. 969 Page l•- KW "e hear an announcement from the Minister of Mines and Energy that there would be an increase in gasoline, an increase in the price of gasoline and furnance oil in Newfoundland, when Hr. MacDonald and the Prime Minister of Canada had said that the increase of five or •ix cents a gallon would be west of the Ottawa Valley. I heard it this morning. That is what I am coming to,the double talk, Mr. Chairman. It would apply to eveeyone west of the Ottawa Valley.

Then the Minister of Mines and Energy, the same day, when his colleague, the Minister of Justice.was up in Ottawa, agreed-with what the Government of Canada was doing. agreed with the position_ that had been outlined at_ the pr~ous Ellergy Conference and the Government of Canada just doing now, taking action now, on what they said they were going to do at that ti•. This province said. "No." The Premier somehow or other and the Minister of Mines and Energy somehow or other thought it was a question of who owned the offshore mineral rights. They did not even know why they were in Ottawa, what they were discuasing.

AN HON. MEMBER: They knew the difference. a red herring. MR. NEARY: A red herring? I think it was a red whale, not a red herring. They are still shaking their heads up in Ottawa. It ia still the biggest 'Newfie'joke this year across Canada. What I am getting at, Mr. Chairman, is this: The s•e day before the Minister of Justice got aboam the plane at Ottawa to come back to Revfoundland, the Minister of Mines and Energy says. "Ob yes. The increase is going to apply to Newfoundland." I think he said that there is goina_ to be an increase of five or six cnts. AN BON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

NEARY: Which minister said it then? Well. Hr. Chairman, the statement was so wishy-washy that we did not know what he said. It was another classic ex.ample, Sir, of double talking. The people of this province were none the wiser for the lllinister having made the statement. Sir. The Premier. the Mini~ter of Justice, the Minister of Mines and Energy have been telling us all along that we use foreign oil in Eastern Canada. 2924

March 29 1 1974 Tape no.969 Page· 2 Increasing the oil from Western Canada 1 whether it was at the wellhead or where it was 1 did not make any difference to us,we were told• because we use foreign oil in Eastern Canada. Yet the minister tells us 1 "Oh yes 1 we are going to have an increase!" Maybe I got the wrong impression from what the minister said, Sir, because I found it very difficult to follow him. He said that it was going to be the same increase as the people were going to have to put up with west of the Ottawa Valley. Maybe the minister did not say what the increase was, maybe he did not, Sir. Mr.

Chairman, that even makes it worse.· The people of Newfoundland are still in the dark as to what the increase is going to be. Mr. Chairman, my understanding (the minister can correct me on this) is that Ottawa has agreed with the Eastern Provinces to· subsidize the price of gasoline and oil - subsidize it: Here is the hitch, here is the rub, Mr. Chairman. The provinces have to take the initiative and so far this province has not taken the initiative and has not indicated to the Government of Canada. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Let me explain myself now.

Do not come back looking so sanctimonious after going up and reversing another decision, backing away. This government are becoming noted now for backing away from situations. The Government of Canada, Sir, have set up the machinery whereby they are prepared to subsidize gasoline and oil in Eastern Canada. AN HON. MEMBER: They have been doing it since January. MR. ?."EARY : They have been doing it since January? Sir, my understanding is that the Government of Canada are right at the moment on the horns of a dilemma.

They do not know whether they should pay the subsidy to the province, to the oil companies or to the consumers. MR. BARRY: We do not care as long as - MR. NEARY: Ah: they do not care. This is exactly_ the point, Sir. MR. BARRY: We do not care as long as it does not cost us.the people, any more. 2~2;,

March 29, 1974 Tape no. 969 Page 3 MR. NEARY: Here is the point, Mr. Chairman. Here it is. The Govenunent of Canada are saying to the provinces, "Reduce you~ gasoline tax and reduce your oil t ·ax, reduce it by five or · 2926

March 29, 1974 Tape 970 (Afternoon) PK..: 1 ten cents." I think there is only about a twenty-eight or thirty cents tax on gasolinP., Sir. I am not talking about the sales tax. AN RON. ,MEMBER: He does not know what he is talking about. MR. NEARY: I do knowyhat I am talking about, Sir. The Goverrunent of Canada, Sir, AN RON. MEMBER: MR. CHAIRMAN: Inaudible. Order, please! While the honourable member may invite certain comments across the floor, I do think that honourable members to my left are certainly commenting to such an extent that the honourable member is-finding it difficult to maintain the floor. MR.

NEARY: That is what I am not Your Honour. I find no difficulty at all, I can handle anythi~g on that side of the House, Sir. What I am saying is this, Mr. Chairman, that the Government of Canada·have laid out a policy whereby they are saying to the provinces in Eastern Canada, -"Take five cents off a gallon of gasoline, off your tax.and we will pay it back to you, we will subsidize it.u This is What they are saying in effect, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: perhps - Yes, Mr. Chairman. Yes, yes, yes, they are! Well' then AN RON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: Well, they have said it to the whole of Canada, Sir. Well perhaps when the minister gets up to speak he can tell me what it is they ar~ saying, because we have no statement of ~olicy from the provincial government, Sir. If the Government of Canada are not saying this, tell us what they are saying. If they are not going to subsidize it~then will the minister tell us what that honourable crowd over there are going to do about it? The price of gasoline and oil in this province has ~one completely beyond the reach of the ordinary person. Is the province going to subsidize it?

You soon will not be able to live in this province, Sir. MR. BARRY: We just purchased an oil well, the Upper Churchill. MR. NEARY: T~ey just purchased an oil well! MR. BARRY: Fifty-four million barrels a year. 2927

March 29, 1974 Tape 970 (afternoon) PK - 2 HR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I will tell the honourable minister what they just did. MR. BARRY: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Yes, I will tell them. AN HON. MEMBER: Tell us. MR. NEARY: Yes, I will tell them. They put the people of Newfoundland into a position where Newfoundland will take all the risks, put up all the capital and somebody elee will get the cream, that 1• what they just did. All.1BON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Does the honourable member want me to go into details or shall I wait for my colleague the - AN RON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: I will wait until my colleague the Leader of the Opposition - HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! While the honourable member may invite and tolerate and enjoy having the honourable members to my left inter­ jecting, it is certainly out of order and I will call all honourable members to observe the rule that the member speaking has the right to be heard in silence. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

As far as the policy of the Upper and Lower Churchill are concerned, Sir, we will have our hands full in the future.as an opposition in this House,to keep our eye on political patronage in that deal, the Upper and Lover Churchill. But, Sir, this matter of an energy policy is a very serious matter. I only wish, Sir, and I hope, I sincerely ~ope ti_iat the minister would give up double talking and just state what the provincial government policy is on energy. Sir, what ie their policy?_ Do they have one? If they do, Sir, I do not know what it is. I think I follow this Bouse fairly closely.

I have not heard the minister yet come in to this honourabl~ House and tell us what the policy of his government is, Sir, on energy. They seem to be flying by the seat of their pants. AN HON. MEMBER: I could write a whole book on it 0 Your Honour. ' MR. NEARY: A whole book, hum! Give us a lot of bunk on it! The, are 2928

March 29, 1974 Tape 970 (afternoon) PK - 3 flying by the seat of their pants, Sir, why does not the minister get up and be man enough to admit that they do not have any policy,? No policy! They make it up as they go! They are ·ca~rying their - . energy policy around in the·ir vest pocket! I am getting sick and tired, sick and tired,as well as the rest of the people in this province,of hearing the Minister of Mines . and Energy get up in front of Rotary, get up in the House of Assembly, get up in front of the Lions Club 2929

March 29, 1974· tape no. 971 Page 1 - MW making wishy-ashy statements, indecisive statements, somethi.ng, Mr. ,Chairman,like lawyers down in court would make vben they "are trying to be indecisive .• Instead of the minister getting up and making a clear-cut factual, straightforward statements, Sir, he appears to me to be afraid to do this. 1 do not know vhy. When I was sitting in the gallery for the last four days, 1 uoticed this about a lot of the ministers on the other side.

If they do not have the officials to prop them up, Sir, if they do not have their officials stan~g by their side, telling them what to do, they .seem to be afraid to make straightforward statements, afraid that they would make fools of themselves. I hope now as a result of fA1 few remarks that the minister will be able to stand in_ his pl4ce in this honourable Bouse and lay it out, tell WI what it 18, What ~s the energy policy of this government? Do they have one? Let us hear it.

Let us today, before we leave this Bouse, assure the people of Newfoundland and Labrador that there ia going to be no increase in furnance oil. God only knows they cannot afford it, Mr. Chairman. They cannot afford it. They cannot afford an increase in gasoline. Maybe the Bon. Minister of Finance can, the old moneybag can afford it. 1 am talking about the ordinary people Sir. It 111 about time 1111 started thinking about the ordinary people in this