PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT House of Assembly For the period: Thursday, March 17, 1977

M.arch 17, 1977 Tape 1074 IB-1 The House met at 3:00 P.¥-. Hr. Speaker in the ('hair. }~. SPEAKEP: Order, please! I am pleased to welcm::1e to the gallery t~vo former members of the House of Assembly, ~~r. Albert Furey and Dr. Noel !·{urphy. I know all hen. members join me in ~relco!'ling thes~ gentJ emen. Sm1E HON. ~"E~~EPS : Hear, hear! l'T... SPE.AKEP: The hen. Yinister of Constimer Affairs and the -Envircinmenf: -- I - • - YR.. MtT.PHY : ~fr. Speaker, may I clai~ the indulgence of the House just for a few short moments.

I believe I should read into the record a couple of letters of thanks I got fro!':! the Canadian Heart Foundat:i .on from the town of Harbour Grace. It is addressed to me on behalf of the executive of the Canadian Heart Foundation, Newfoundland division.

"I ~rould like to express the thanks of our foundation to your fellm -: Cabinet members as well as MHA' s from both the government and Opposition sides of the Rouse for givtng of their time at a benefit hoc key game at S ~ P. ~~oores Yemorial Stadium, Harbour Grace." I thought I ~wuld rea~ that in,and also one from the to"-'Il of Harbour Grace ,because I think it is one of the fe,;,, tiroes in the history of this Provi.nce that the members of the Rouse of Assembly have receiver any ~vord of thanks.

I would also,Tvhile I am stood on my feet,like to offer stncere congratulations to an hon. gentleman of this Rouse ~vho today celebrates his birthday, age unknmvn, who has served t"renty-five years as a member of this Rouse of Assembly, Sir, and six years as a member of the Ro>:.al Navy. I refer to the bon. member for Rurin-Placelil~fWest u~r.

Canning) , Sir, and I ,.,..ould like to place on the recorcl of the House the congratulations I feel of all of us for having contributed, you might say,thirty-one years of his J_jfe at a very younr, age to the service of his Province both in the' Navy and in the House of Assembly. Rear, hear!

¥arch 17, 1977 Tape 1074 IB-2 STATE!'TNTS BY ~f!NISTE:PS: MR. SPEAKEP: The bon. ~~:inister of Justice. ~!Y • HI CKY AN : 't-'r. Speaker, in a mutual effort to develop commercial and innustrial opportunities between Canada and the European Economic Community, two senior representatives of the EEC ·are visiting St. John's today and tomorrow for meetings with Cabinet ministers, government officials and the local business community.

His Excellency, Curt Heindenreich of West Germany, of the Canadian deleg~tion of the Co~mission of turopean Cownunities and Johannes Van Rij, first secretary of the delegation have arrived in St. John' s~or are arriving at this minute, follov ring a similar visit to other Canadian provinces. As ~~inister of Intergovernt!lental Affairs I express the hope that the visit by EEC representatives will establish a base for joint initiatives bet,·reen Newfoundland and the European Economic Community.

I am encouraged by the future possibilities of development projects of benefit to the Province of Newfoundland. r ~y colleague, the !finister of Industrial nevelopment,,·~elcomes the opportunit y of participating with the FEr. to inentify opportunities designed to provide nevr employment and new industry for Newfoundland and Labrador. }1}?_. SPF.AKFT'_: The hen. r.1.ember for Burgeo-Bay d 'Espoir. Hr. Speaker, on behalf of my colleagues on this side of the House I would certain] y say that vTe first of all thank the governT!\ent for the information about the visit of these tw·o gentlemen from the European

March 17, 1977. Tape 1075 RH- 1 MR. SIMMONS: - I Economic Community. ;We welcome tpe news. We hope it is just the beginning of collaboration between this Province and the EEC which will have positive benefits economically, financially for us. On behalf of my colleagues also we welcome Mr. Heindenreich and Mr. Van Kij as visitors to the Province and hope that their visit will be a most enjoyable c;me. The subject of the discussions, }'Ir. - MR. DOODY: Why do you not go back to Europe with them. MR. SIMMONS: I would suggest instead we give them Brian Davies to take back to Europe with them. Mr.

Speaker, the subject of the discussions we do not know in detail, but we would certainly like to hear from the Minister of Industrial Development and/or others in Cabinet about as to what is being talked·about,and what -the fellow-up of the discussions are.

The minister may indicate at some point whether this indeed itself is a follow-up of the meetings or the much touted visit of last February when the Minister of Fisheries, the Minister of Industrial Development, the Premier and the Minister of Public Works as he now is went to various points in Europe, a trip that, as I say, was much touted at the moment and at the time,and about which we were promised much results including a statement. We have not heard either,of course, Mr.

Speaker, and perhaps this is the beginning of an effort by government to inform us on that particular trip which took place well over a year ago. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must call to the hon. gentleman's attention that his remarks must be, number one, brief, and number two, only comments, not debate. I would consider his latter remarks as getting outside the area of comments into debate. I realize that brief is a relevant term,but presumably it has to be compared to the length of the statement to which it is a reply,which in itself .·

March 17, 1977. Tape 1075 RH- 2 MR. SPEAKER: was a fairly brief statement. MR. SIMHONS: Yes, I quite agree, Mr. Speaker. I have no intention not to be brief. I was attempting to put this into some kind of a context and I do hope that whatever the reason for the visit it will be the first of many if it offers some promise of economic and financial co-operation between the two•communities represented in those meetings. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Lewisporte. MR. F. WHITE: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to present a petition from one of the most central but certa~nly one of the most forgotten communities in this Province, the community of Norris Arm North. Most hon. members know the whereabouts of Norris Arm South. It is located on the Trans-Canada Highway to the right between Grand Falls and Norte Dame Junction. But Norris Arm North is on the other side of the inlet and is about seven miles from the Trans-Canada Highway, a totally separate community from Norris Arm South,and connected by a gravel road from the Trans Canada Highway.

As I said~the petition is signed by 160 people and really there are three prayers to the petition: . Op.e_~ ,: the pavement of the Norris Arm North road; _Two, warning lights on the railway crossing on that road; and Three ; - slow lanes be placed on the Trans-Canada Highway at the Norris Arm North turnoff. Now, Mr. Speaker, I will just say a word on each of those points.

With respect to the paving of the road to Norris Arm North~there was a commitment given by the administration, the present administration, the former Minister of Transportation and Communications, the present Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations,sent a letter to Norris Arm South and to Norris Arm North indicating that when the water and

March 17, 1977. Tape 1075 RH- 3 MR. WHITE: sewer was .finished in Norris Arm.South that the pavement would be carried on there atld,at the same time,that Norris Arm North would be paved. Well I want to give the ministers notice that the situation in Norris Arm South now is ready for ·pavement as well · as the Norris Arm North road. I hope, Mr. Speaker, that we can see some developments on this this coming Spring and Summer. Mr.

Speaker, with respect to warning lights on the railway crossing on the Norris Arm North road,I suppose it is one of the few m.ajor roads, that I consider to be. a, major _· rc;>ad in the Province, where there are not warning lights installed on the railway crossing. Now I have written to ~ - , ,) • · :' .. ~ ' t ~ a a • •

March 17, 1977 Tape 1076 JM- 1 MR. WHITE: the officials in the Department of Transportation and Communications who really do not have very - much authority with respect to this,and I have written to the CNR half a dozen times at least and I can ·-get . ~~ satisfaction with respect to warning lights on the . railway crossing. So I hope that the Minister of Transportation and Communications will take note and get on to this and hopefully we can have this done fairly quickly. That same thing applies, Mr. Speaker, with respect to the third point - slow lanes on the Trans-Canada Highway.

There are three school buses- two or three ,r am not sure,- coming out of Norris Arm North every single day going on to the Trans-Canada Highway and certainly there can be a slow lane put on the Trans- Canada Highway there because it is a new

section of Trans-Canada that is fairly wide and could provide for the construction of a slow lane or even -maybe not put a slow lane there,but reduce the speed limit in some ways. So, Mr. Speaker, I support this petition and I hope that the three things that the people of Norris Arm North are asking for are carried out this coming year. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I know the Minister of Transportation and Communications is anxious to support this petition, Sir, but I rise to support the petition presented by the menber for Lewisporte in behalf of 160 of his constituents in Norris Arm North asking to have the speed limit reduced along the Trans-Canada Highway, signal ~d _ warning lights placed at the railway crossing~and a slow lane on the Trans-Canada Highway. These are all very reasonable - and have the road paved.

These are all reasonable requests, Sir, and I understand from the member in presenting the petition that a commitment has already been made by the administration in writing and I am sure that the government will honour its commitment as made to the people in the Norris Arm North r:t,...,. ..r- · ..­ ·' .._ ~ - •••• L • ""-'oJUV

March 17, 1977 Tape 1076 JM - 2 MR. NEARY: area. I I note, Sir, incidentally; for the information of the House that the Minister of Transportation and Communications has reduced the speed limit on certain parts of the Trans-Canada Highway in recent days down to 20 mph. I presume this is to try ·and cut down on the deterioration and the destruction of the Trans-Canada Highway by the heavy equipment that is going over the Trans-Canada at the present time especially the tractor trailers and the big buses.

So if the minister can cut down the speed limit - I believe it is the only place in Canada this has happened,where the speed limit on the Trans-Canada Highway has been reduced to 20 mph. If it can be done in one instance I do not see why it could not be done as requested in the prayer of the petition on behalf of the people of Norris Arm North. It gives me great pleasure, Mr. Speaker, to support the prayer of the petition. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, just a few words on the petition. The prayer of the petition with regards to the paving of that

section of road,that prayer will be given consideration. That is all that can be said at this time prior to the budget being brought before the House of Assembly. With regards to the reduction of speed limit,that will be given immediate consideration by myself as the minister because more and more each and every day I am becoming more concerned with regards to the safety on our highways.

During the past number of months in certain sections we have reduced the speed limits from 60 mph to 50 mph, other cases from 60 mph to 40 mph mainly in places where there is commercial development like~ for example,in the Clarenville Area is one area I can refer to at this time - areas of that nature. The bon. member for LaPoile mentioned that we recently took steps to reduce the speed limit on certain sections

March 17, 1977 Tape 1076 . MR. MORGAN: doWn as low as 20 mph,and the unfortunate thing. Mr. Speaker~ is that that action had to be taken because of the present deplorable situation of certain section~ of our Trans- Canada Highway. I will qualify by saying again that certain sections - one sect .ion in particular is the

section in the Grants Pit area West of Glovertown, between Glovertown and Gambo. Yesterday in talking to the national media in Halifax I emphasized the fact that it is a deplorable situation when a province has to place speed limits" of 20 D1ph on a highway which l_inks together our nation. I am sure it is the only part of our country where ~e have ·to impose such limits. So I am· hopitig that our efforts and our discussions with the federal government will overcome that situation in the very immediate future • ..-;.·s···2 -" r •' , ._. J JM- 3

March 17, 1977 Tape 1077 Page 1. 'MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir. MR. SHNONS: Hr. Sneaker, I H'ould like to just say a brief vmrd in support of the petition presented by my colleague the member for Lewisporte. The road which connects Norris Arm North to the Trans-Canada Highway is a very recent innovation indeed. When I first went to the community in 1954, peddling door to door as I then was, there was no road through the comrmnity at all. We used to go across from Norris Arm South by boat.

They do have a road, a road that I had the occasion to drive over in the last year or year and a half ago, and it is a road like others in this Province that is ·in need of paving. I sunport ~.;rholeheartedly the prayer of the petition in this respect. The need for warning lights and the need for slow lanes on the Trans-Canada Hif,h~.:ray are two other prayers of the petition I can very wholeheartedly support. In addition to sunporting the prayer of the petition - as soon as the formalities are over. AN RON. MEMBER: Keep on going. MR. SIMYONS: I have all the time in the vmrld. I conp;ratulate Mr.

Sp~aker, on showing his true colours today, being St. Paddy's Day and all. MR. SPEAKF.R: A gift from the hon. member for L.'lPoile. MR. SP.tM0NS: I have heard of proselytizing but this is ridiculous. Mr. Sneaker, the mention of slow lanes in the petition gives one the opportunity I supnose to make a brief reference to the use of the present slow lanes.

I can understand the spirit of the petition; the slow lanes would allovT traffic in the immediate area to sort itself out in terms of its sneed and also in terms of ~vhether it is going to make an exit into the Norris Arm North road o~ proceed along the Trans-Canada. The problem vdth the slow lanes at the ' monent, Mr. S'f)eaker, is that an mvful lot of drivers are not using them. Surprising hmv many drivers you approach from the rear and find that the driver is insisting on using the centre lane, even thoup,h he may be coasting along at thirty-five or forty miles an hour.

I iust would say to the minister - if it is his responsibility, I an not sure - would say to him he \muld take this one under advisement \Jith a view to perhans a little further educating of

March 17, 1977 Tape 1077 Page 2. ~ M.R.SI~ONS: the ~river on the use of the slm·T lane. A lot of people are using it hut again there are quite a fe~-1 who are not; H~1.ving said that ~fr. Speaker, jost let me say. that I am very pleased to support all three prayers of the petition. MR.SPEAKER: Han. member for Fortune -Hermitage. MR.liTNSOR: "!-fr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of sane 166 persons from English Harbour East in Fortune Bay. The prayer of this petition,Hr. Speaker, is a little bit unusual it is in the form of a memo from the Rev. Charles T.

Babb,priest in charge of the Anglican Parish of Bay L'Argent,and the Rev. Father Kevin Bennett,priest in charge of the Roman Catholic Parish of St. Bernard's. This -petition of course has to do with a road • I believe the minister has a copy of this petition already. If not you should have it.

The prayer of the petition reads: "Gentlemen, upon representation of the undersigned people of English Harbour East, ' I Fortune Bay 1;,1e have undertaken to present to you their request for a road 1;,1ithin the community of English Harbour East which will make it possible to gain access to the t~vo public burial grounds maintained by both our denominations. Access to these burial grounds presently is possible only by boat,or across the ice by slide and ropes 1;,1hen the harbour is frozen.

This makes it very difficult for any of the families of the deceased to be present for a burial as well as making it exceptionally dangerous for those pallbearers and others ~vho have to attend to the burial of the dead. 11 In this present age this situation is certainly deplorable and unacceptable to the people concerned as witnessed by their unanimous signing of the enclosed petition. As the priests concerned in these cemeteries and being

March 17, 1977 Tape No. 1078 NM- 1 MR. WINSOR: aware of the needs and feelings of the community involved,we endorse this petiticn. 11 In supporting this petition,! have visited there and it is a very, very pathetic position that these two priests are placed in. A funeral is bad enough at any time,but when half the people have to stay on one side of the harbour and watch the corpse going across the harbour in a boat - AN HON. MEMBER: How many miles of road? MR. WINSOR: I do not think there are any miles. It is probably half a mile or so. MR. MUR'PIIY: Mr.

Speaker, I do not want to interrupt the but I am rather curious. I have heard this on radio and I am just wondering how the graveyard originated in the first instance? Was the road washed out or something previous? · Perhaps I am out of order, but I heard it expressed and I am iust wondering why the only access is by water? TJack' could you explain that? MR. WINSOR: In reply to that I would say like most of the Southwest Coast it is very difficult to bury people in rock,and that was probably the only few sods they had on a little island. MR. HURPHY: I see. I see. MR. HINSOR: That is quite what it is. AN HON.

HEHBER: vfuat is the distance? MR. 'VHNSOR: Oh there is only about a half mile or le~~. It is not really worth calling a road because it is not that much distance. But it is certainly a very difficult situation, and these two gentlemen who co-operate beautifully in everything else they do down there,are not asking too much to have this done. And if it is any help to the minister I would remind him that the Reverend Charles Babb is six foot two and measures sixty-four inches around the waist. The Reverend Father Bennett is small but he is tough and I would heartily support this petition, Mr.

Speaker, and ask that it be placed on the table of the House and referred to the department to 'vhich it relates. SOME HO~. :'-1:EHBERS: Hear! Hear! ~fR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. 29b5

.. March 17, 1977 Tape No. 1078 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition so ably presented by my hon. friend, the member for Fortune Bay (Mr. J. Winsor). I believe this is the first petition the bon. member presented in the House. is it? SOME RON. }'!EMBERS: No. No. No. MR. NEARY: Oh I see, this is the second petition my bon. friend presented. But it is a unique petition,! will say that.

I believe it is the first time in my fifteen years in the House that I have heard a petition like the one the bon. gentleman just outlined, that I heard the prayer of the petition asking to have a road built to a cementary so that the people could attend the funerals of the deceased members of the family and of the community. ·MR. J. WINSOR: And it is ecumenical. MR. NEARY: And it is ecumenical in content, so my bon. friend says.

And, Sir, I am going to throw this suggestion out to the like of Brian Davies and the Green~eace; if they want something to crusade for here is a good cause, let them travel throughout the world and ask the millionaires that they are scrounging and bumming the money off of for a few thousand dollars to go down and build this half mile of road down in English Harbour East so that people down there can attend funerals of the dead in the community. That w·ould be a good cause for Mr. Brian Davies to crusade, Sir, instead of out wasting his money and throwing it away like he is doing. AN RON.

HEMBER: And it could be a one wsy road too. MR. NEARY: And maybe when they get across, when they get the road built, then stick Brian Davies down in one of the holes that they dig on the other side. So, Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to support the prayer of the petition. It is only for the sake of a half a mile, Sir, I am sure that the minister could probably take care of

March 17, 1977 Tape No. 1078 NM- 3 MR. NEARY: this matter under a local road grant of some kind, and let the people in the community build the road themselves so that they can attend the funerals, they will not .have to stand on the other side and watch the caskets being put in the ground and unable to be there by the graveside for the last rites. I think it is a terrible thing. It is awfully cruel, Sir, and it is too bad that we cannot turn people in communities like this that have problems of this nature, we could not turn them into seals so that r1aybe they would get more attention from the outside world.

But it is a good cause, Sir, and I hope that the government will accede to the prayer of the petition. }m. SPEAKER: The hon. me~ber for Harbour Grace. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I am sure it will not be a conflict of interest if I support this petition. I know personally Reverend Babb, who is a former resident of Harbour Grace, and I also know of his size.

But, Sir, this petition is a little unique and also the request is a little unique, for Sir, any person 9I think,who have lived their lifetime, at least we try to give them a good send off and I feel, Sir, that they should have smooth sailing on their way and I trust that the hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications will see that this road is upgraded, and if at all possible paved.

Yarch 17, 1977 Tape 1079 IB-1 SOI-1E RON. }'T:l'BEPS: Hear, hear! . }!'P. SPEAY.£"R: The hon. member for Bay Of Islands. HR.. HOODPOH: ~Jr. Speaker~ having spent about eight years on the Southwest Coast and also having gone ~any ti~es to Gaultois, where the han. member lives who brought forth the petition, I want l to give ~y full support to it as vJell. One thing I note about it is that perhaps it brings out something that is happening nmv. We have in this peti.tion \vhat "'e call an ecumenical spirit.

He have the priest and minister working tor,ether on jt and this is something really that is really p,rm,,ing, not only in the HorJ.Cl but j t is growing surprisingly in our Province. I think really this is something that we cannot overlook. So I want in fact to give it my full support. It is only a half mile of road. I kno"T hovr difficult I found U sometiMes on the South Coast trying to get back and forth, knee deep in snow to the graveyard and in many cases, as the han. member knows, to the church on the hill in Gaultois. So I give this my full hearted support. SO}"E RON. }~'HREPS: Rear, hear! HR.

SPEAKER: The han. l!'.ember for Eagle River. 'HR. ST'PACHAN: l~r. Speaker, I support the prayer of the this petition. I th:i:nk that in any cases where people require roads around their community they should have them. I notice that is a unique or unusual request that the people \·Iant to have a r0ac for the living to ca.rry the dead, or the living to visit the dead. I hope that the ninister will accede to their request and also to the request that I had previously made in a previous petition in v!hich I asked for a roa(l so the living could also visit the livi.ng. Thank you. ~1R.

SPEI-..KER: The bon. member for Carbonear. }ry. p. 'lvf00PY.S: Hr. Speal :er, I have the honour and the pleasure for the second time in as many \-reeks to present a petition from 171 residents of the co~unity of Freshwater in my district. I am not sure under whose jurisdiction a part of the petition's prayer comes under,but pa-r-t of it does come under the ~epart'!J,ent of Consumer Affairs and Environment, part of it may come under the Department of Fisheries,

March 17, 1977 Tape 1079 IB-2 1-~.. R. '!-f00P.ES : and part of it may be under federal jurisdiction. So I thought the wtsest thing to do for the benefit of ~y constituents is to present it to the House through the Hinister of Intergovernmental Affairs and let him sort of untangle it. The prayer of the petition, Yr. Speaker, says, "~ .... Thereas the community of Freshwater contatns some tl•Tenty full and part-:-time fishe~en who obtain their livelihood fro~ the sea;and

whereas this small community takes pride in the bem.tty and cleanliness of its waterfront and beaches ;and

whereas the present w·harf and marine structure in Fresh"t-Tater j s both an eyesore and inadequate for the use of its fisheri!Ien;

be it resolved that we, the undersigned residents and voters, do humbly petition the Eouse of Assemhly, the provincial minister in the nepart~ent of Fisheries,and the federal Department of the Environment to as soon as possible undertake the repair and restructuring of the wharf and marine structure in fresh"rater and·also to provi~e assistance to locaJ people to clean up the beaches and beautify the small Haterfront area. 11 }~r. Speaker, there are exactly 188 voters in the col"lT\unity of Freshwater and 171 of them have signed this petition. ftnd if that is not a record, certainJy it must be pretty near one.

That seems to me like well over ninety or ninety-five per cent of the electorate have coTI'.e out and w·illingly attacl)ed their signatures to th5s piece of paper hoping to receive some support and encouragement from the government ,,;rh.id:ever one it may be.

In antici.pation of the presentation of this petition,so as not to be exaggerative or hyperbolistic,I visited the cotmrunity and vi.e¥red the sight and the vYharf structure etc. and if there is any one stngular thing that I ,,rould v1ant to support ,.moJ e-hearterlly and fully it is this eyesore, this excuse for a wharf, this actual shame to ~mat ever governt:"ent is responsible. The fishermen in this comMunity need it badly. They need it necessarily to c ... ... . •. ~ ,... ,_ -·~ {"

March 17, 1977 Tafle No. 1080 NM- 1 MR. MOORES: survive because of their livelihood and I feel, Mr. Speaker, that it is only fitting that whatever government is responsible they get on to this quickly and to do something about it. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER : MR. SIM!'-toNS: I support it fully, completely, one hundred per cent. The hon. member for Burgee-Bay d'E~poir~ Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in support of the petition presented by my colleague from Carbonear on behalf of the 171 persons in Freshwater who have signed it.

The problem he raises is a very real one in a number of fishing communities around this Province, including a number in my own district. An aspect of the problem which he mentioned that I would like to just draw attention to for a moment is the question of jurisdiction. The responsibilities of the federal government of course are not our direct concern here as legislators. But I ~vould suggest to the Provincial Department-of Fisheries that an initiative be taken to identify those various fisheries facilities, haulouts and wharves and so on.

I am aware that the department knows who owns them but very often the fishermen in the communities concerned do not know, as my hon. colleague has just indicated is the case in Freshwater. And as an important first step it might be worthwhile for the Department of Fisheries to undertalc.e a labelling programme, ft would not be a very expensive one at all,to place a label or to otherwise identify the various facilities around this Province which it owns. The very first question that comes up whenever you talk to a fishemen' s committee or a fishermen about a haulout or a wharf is ! Who owns it?

And I would suggest that perhaps the 2950

March 17, 1977 Tape No. 1080 NM- 2 MR. SIMJ'fONS: Minister of Fisheries, who is not here today because he has other obligations at the Fisheries Coference I realize, but perhaps his colleagues could pass on the suggestion to him because it would not be a costly one at all. I find very often it just takes a phone call to the appropriate person in the Department of Fisheries and the individual concerned can tell you very readily. There are exceptions to that, I can name places where there is still q~estion about whether it is a federal wharf or a federal haulout or a ~rovincial one. I understand also, Mr.

S~eaker, that the provincial department is presently trying to iron out this very question about Hho owns what in terms of fishing facilities in the various communities. But I do make the suggestion and I hope it is taken under advisement, Othen.Jise I would like again to reiterate my whole-hearted support for the petition so ably presented by my colleague from Carbonear. MR. SPEAKER: MR. MURPHY: The hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment.

In view of the fact that the Department of Cons~~er Affairs and Environment '"as mentioned in the petition,and I do not believe it has come to our notice in any letter or any form~and it is the first intimation I have had myself. And being very much concerned with matters pertaining to pollution, '"hether it be a beach or a park or whatever it is, I can assure the member from Carbonear (Mr. R.

Moores) that anything '"e can do in any way we will take the action and that may be an action perhaps that the petition may not call for, and that is the action nerhaps of getting those people '"ho do contribute to pollution perhaps to pay the price for it and to make sure it does not happen.

But I would like to assure the member again that if he wants to direct it to my department I would be only too hanoy to have my officials look at it,because again a beach or a wharf or a public place is where in most cases food is being harulled in the form of fish and fisll products, and I thin!~ we have got to be very, very careful that we do not destroy a lot

March 17, 1977 Tape No. 1080 NM- 3 MR. MURPHY: of the work that we are doing by polluting the area concerned. So again my assurance that anything I can do in the way of trying to cure the matter will be done if it is brought to the attention of my department. ' ANS~~RS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: I have answers to question no. 196, asked in the name of the bon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), no. 152, in the name of the same hon. member, and no. 166 in the name of the hon. member for LaPoile. And also, Mr.

Speaker, . an undertaking I gave to the hon. member for Baie Verte-tfuite Bay (Mr. Rideout) a few days ago with regard to the regulations under the Newfoundland Medical Care Insurance Beneficiaries and Enquiries Act, I have a copY, for him~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communica~ions. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, in reply to a question of which notice was given by the hon. gentleman from Windsor-Buchans last week with regards to the activities of the Buchans Mining Company, Asarco, in moving their ore from the Buchans Mining area . 45. _,.'l("'-' .. '",...;: ,... .. ", ,._l.l-4

March 17, 1977 Tape 1081 JM- 1 MR. MORGAN: to Botwood from the present means,which is rail transport,to road transport. I informed the House then that I would talk to the company to determine the reasons for their plans. I have talked to Mr. Houtman and Mr. George Neary of the company and only today I was informed by Mr. Houtman, who I understand is in a top management level with the company, that because of the high costs of maintaining their own railway facility,which runs from Buchans to Millertown Junction~number one;and number two because of the high cost of maintaining the rail

section from Grand Falls to Botwood,which was then owned by ·:A,N.D. _,Company is now used solely by Buchans Mining Company'l and therefore the maintenance cost had to be borne by the Buchans Mining Company, because of these increased costs of maintenance of the rail facilities,these are the two major factors- and not CNR's rail freight rates - these are the two major factors in influencing the decision to divert to road. They informed me they will now meet with the unions in connection with the employees concerned.

I have been given no indication that there will be any layoff with regards to their change and with regards to the mode of transport. Unfortunately this department,and in fact this administration whether through any agency whether it be Public Utilities Board or Department of Transportation,there'is no agency can prevent that company from doing that. It is solely their own decision based on the ecori.orl1ics of their mode of transport. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Burgeo-Bay D'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Justice.

I wonder would the minister indicate to the House what steps the provincial government is involved in these days with respect to the harassment at the seal hunt ; ~hat steps the government in particular is taking to discourage Mr. Davies and the other·people .,.-"1,., .. , ..... - ,-....:. ~:-.;~ . __ : .... )

.. March 17, 1977 Tape 1081 JM- 2 MR. SIMMONS: who are harassing the local people in their pursuit of the seal hunt? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. minister. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I will attempt as I have done the last two days during Question Period 9 to keep bon. members advised. My answer must of necessity be a little lengthy • . Mr. Speaker, I have today sent the following telegram to the bon. Romeo LeBlanc, Minister of State - Fisheries, Ottawa. nThe following telex was received by me today from Captain I ' Morrissey Johnson of the sealing ship Lady Johnson · presently prosecuting the seal fishery at the Front. 11 Re Canadian sealing regulations Gulf and Front areas. Today I have observed

section 12~subsection s,articles a and b violated on numerous occasions by helicopters landing on the ice near the sealers and deploying persons who have intimidated. and hampered my crew in their lawful enterprise. Canadian Federal law enforcement agencies are aware that these infringements of the law are taking place but to date to my knowledge no positive action has been taken to prevent reoccurrences. My position is 51 degrees 41 minutes North 54 degrees 18 minutes West.

I request confirmation that canadian law exists in these areas,and if so is it only for law abiding persons otherwise why are these violaters allowed to continue to operate. Please advise at your earliest since I am not too enthused about continuing the hunt under these conditions. Other ships have experienced infractions of the Criminal Cod~and all t~e sealing fleet share my convictions. I appeal to you to ask your federal counterpart to stop these so-called protesters from coming out here by having their helicopters grounded by the Ministry of Air Transport,otherwise serious consequence may occur.

Yours Sincerely, Morrissey Johnson, Master, Lady Johnson. That is the end of the quotation,and I continue with my telegram to Mr. LeBlanc.

March 17, 1977 Tape 1081 JM - 3 MR. HICKMAN: _ 11 In_ my opinion it .is clear beyond all reasonable doubt that several persons who are harrassing Newfoundland sealers and attempting to prevent Newfoundlanders from going about their lawful pursuit are in violation 6£ the laws of Canada and in particular tbe Seal Protection Regulations. Whilst the enforcement of the -Seal Protection Regulations falls within your exclusive jurisdiction,! have suggested to the Commanding Officer of

March 17, 1977 Tape no. 1082 Page 1 - MS MR. HICKMAN: the Royal Canadian M.ounted Police in Newfoundland that adequate members of his force ba despatched to the Front to protect Newfoundland and Canadian sealers and to enable them to continue their work unimpeded by foreigners or anyone else.

I understand R.C.M.P. officers will be moving to the Front as soon as weather conditions permit with adequate men assigned to each Canadian ship. 1'I am satisfied your officials have in their possession adequate evidence to warrant the laying of charges under the provisions of the Seal Protection Regulations and I would ask that you issue ·.' the necessary instructions that this be done forthwith and that you ask your colleagues,the Attorney General of Canada and the Solicitor General of Canada,to issue the necessary instructions to ensure adequate police protection for tho~e at the Front.

Will you p~ease ask the Minister of Transport to prohibit helicopters being used for unlawful purposes set forth herein. Signed T. Alex Hickman, Minister of Justice and Attorney General, copy, Honourable Ronald Basford - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HICKMJill: Minister of Justice and Attorney General, Honourable Francis Fox, Solicitor General of Canada, Honourable Otto Lang, Minister of Transport. And I think, Mr. Speaker, that pretty well indicates what the position is today,and for the record may I read the short telex I also sent this afternoon to Captain Morrissey Johnson, Sealing Ship, Lady Johnson.

"Re you tel"; I have arranged for adequate po~ice protection to move to the Front immediately or as soon as weather conditions permit to afford necessary protection all Newfoundland and Canadian sealers and to allow them to continue their lawful enterprise. Understand R.C.M.P. have been in touch

March 17, 1977 Tape no. 1082 Page 2- mw Mr. Hickman with masters of Canadian sealing ships to arrange adequate accommodation on board each ship. I have also asked the Honourable Romeo Leblanc, Minister of State - Fisheries, to arrange wherever evidence is available for his officials to lay charges against anyone in breach of the Seal Protection Regulations. "I have further asked Mr. Leblanc to request his colleagues, the Attorney General of Canada and the Solic1tor General of Canada,to issue necessary instructions to ensure adequate policy protection for all Canadian sealers.

Further I have asked that the Minister of Transport of Canada be requested to prohibit the use of helicopters at the Front for unlawful purposes. If you or youraew experience further harassment please advise me at once. I wish you and your crew a bumper voyage. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. HICKMAN: Signed, T. Alex Hickman, Minister of Justice and Attorney General. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the minister reads very eloquently~ especially the 'stops'. Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary for the same minister. \-lould the minister indicate whether this is the first representation that the government has made to Ottawa on the particular subject of the need to enforce the regulations, those regulations which come under federal jurisdiction? Is this the first such representation? If there have been previous ones, would the minister agreeable to table those telegrams or letters or whatever form the representations took?

March 17, 1977 Tape no. 1082 Page 3 - 1111o1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I know that my colleague the hon. Minister of Fisheries has during the past several days - and I think prior to that - indicated to the appropriate minister in Ottawa the concern of the Government and Newfoundlanders with respect to the harassment,and before that the planned harassment.

That - in my portfolio, namely, with respect to the law enforcement~as I explained and to the House yesterday,and as Captain Johnson, you know, so readily knows and indicated in his telex to me - that matter lay outside of my jurisdiction. But I did yesterday ask, and I received an assurance from the Commanding Officer of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in Newfoundland that he has, through his superiors in Ottawa, alerted them to the very real concern that I have over the safety of Newfoundlanders at the front and their right to ~-;,,.-...d- · · ·g· "" "',, --:.. .-. ,...,'-..*'__. ..

March 17, 1977. Tape 1083 RH- 1 MR. HICKMAN: conduct the seal hunt without any harrassment. And this is why I have to be very careful in arranging, rather than directing~that these !idditional police officers go to the Front . because there were two out there at least yesterday, Mr. Speaker. MR. WHITE: How many are going now? MR. HICKMAN: There will be at least, I am told by Chief Superintendent Farr.that he plans at least one per ship And I would say that one per ship - bear in mind as well, Hr.

Speaker, that there are already fisheries guardians, I think they c~ll them, at the front who have pretty broad policing powers themselves. I would suggest that - anyway, to answer the question from the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir(Hr._ S~ons), that Chief Superintendent Farr has indeed at my request brought to the attention of his senior officers,who in turn I know have advised the appropriate ministers. I also have been advised that the fishery officials, the guardians, have submitted to their minister, the hon. Mr. LeBlanc,evidence of breaches of the regulations.

And that was done by these - alleged breaches of the regulations - by these people at the Front and is awaiting instructions to lay charges. I would hope that these instructions, and the only person who can give these instructions, as I understand it,is the hon. Hinister of the Environment-Fisheries. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: I will allow one additional supplementary before recognizing another hon. member. HR. SIMl10NS: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary for the same minister.

Is he aware whether any charges have been laid or are about to be laid under federal jurisdiction~and further, if there are any charges which are being laid or can be laid under provincial jurisdiction? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN : As of three o'clock this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, I was advised that no charges had been laid by federal officials,

March 17, 1977. Tape 1083 RH- 2 MR. HICKMAN: federal fisheries guardians. But I believe yesterday they submitted to their superior officers, I presume in Ottawa, what they considered to be adequate evidence of alleged breaches of the regulations to warrant the laying of charges. And of course, they cannot lay them without the authorizations from whoever in that department,or the minister,grants them. With respect to the provincial department of the Attorney General, we have issued instructions to the R.C.M.P. and these instructions were issued by Mr. John G.

Kelly, Director of Public Prosecution, to investigate to see if there is any evidence which indicates that there have been any breach of the Crimal ·code · of Canada, in particular as i mentioned yesterday, tc see whether or not any charge of conspiracy having been committed within the jurisdi~tion of this Province can be sustained.

But let me assure this House,the R.C.M.P~ are moving swiftly ,and quickly to investigate and accumulate whatever evidence there may be available to make sure that there has been no breach of any law coming within the jurisdiction of the Province or the breach of any law that I,as Attorney General,have the right or obligation to enforce. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ·. MR.. SPEAKER: I recognize the hon. member for LaPoile(Mr. Neary).

Before he asks his question,however,I would like to draw to the attention of the House, and I did not interrupt anybody during the previous questioning and answering, but I would draw to hon. members that the regulation as outlined in Beauchesne, paragraph 181, "Ques.tions must be answered briefly and distinctly and be limited to the necessary explanations, though a certain latitude is permitted to ministers of the Crown whenever they find it necessary to extend their remarks with a view of clearly explaining ~~tters

• ,. March 17, 1977. Tape 1083 RH- 3 MR. SPEAKER: in question." It does not give very precise guidance. And also. in May, ·"An answer should be cont'ined to the points . contained in the question with such explanations only as renders the answer intelligable, though a certain latitude is permitted to ministers of the C.rown and suppleti:tentary questions without debate or comment may within due limits be addressed to them which are necessary for the elucidation of the answers that they have given."

Yarch 17 J 1977 Tape 1084 IB-1 '!'T. • SPF.AKE"P : vlhat I ~dsh to point out to hon. members is that I think one of the duties of the Chair is to perm:f.t as tr.any questions as possible from hon. members •. Um.rever, in so doing - and I say this because R number of hon. members are standing constantly and presul'labJy have other topics - hoHever,,.rhen a particular subject matter i.s the object of questions days in a row,and the object of supplementaries, then the Chair can only assume that this is a ~~tter of quite some interest to the House and therefore it is a question of judgement.

But obviously ~rhen a particular subject continues cay after day and 1idth a number of supplernentaries,and vJhere the ans~·7ers, perhaps necessarily are quite lengthly, then obviously one cannot have both situations, both the continuation in depth of a particular subject and a'broad variety of quest:f.ons. It is essentially up to hon. memhers, I think, ·which they wish on any particular occasion. The hon. ~ember for LaPoile. JvfP. • NEARY : l'r.

Speaker, l"lY question :f. s for the M:fnister of Transportation and Cor.:tmunications. 1.Jould the mini.ster tell the House l-!hat steps the government have taken in the last fe,·! days to protect the Trans-Canaca HighHay from further Cleterioration and destruction? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. 1-'in:fster of Transportation. l"F .• MQPGAN: 1{r.

Speaker, as earlier stated speaking on a petition ~dth regards to the Trans-Canada High, .ray the cepart1:1ent has now placed restricte~ speed limits or reduced speed limits dovm to the level of tFenty F!iles per hour,and these are in certain sections of the T:rans-C"anac!a Highway, in the sections Hhere the conditions are that heavy type vehicles, I am doubtful ,.;hether they can drive beyond that speed limit of hrenty I!liles per hour, sectj_ons like for example the

section bet~·een the Gloverto~rn access and the Carnbo access. Tomorrm.r I vrill be travellj _ng the ~·!estern part of the Trans-Canada in the Corner Brook to Port aux Basques area and if the situation over there is the sa111e as it is on the Eastern rart - there is a

section (we:r there i!l the C'r,::~bbs 'Piver ,qre;:~ - the same speed 11.-rdt will be pJ aceo there as ,.:ell, a reduction do~>n to n.renty miles per hour.

!-fa rch 17, 19 77 Tape 1084 IB-2 HP. NE.A.'PY: A suppleJnentary, 1·fr. Speaker. NR. SPEAKE"P.: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Pould the Minister tell the House if there is any hope at all for federal assistance to repair and upgrade and reconstruct and widen the Trans-Canada Highway? Is there any hope at all of any assistance from Otta~.J" a to do this? The han. tanister of Transportation. 1-~r.

Speaker, I am pleasec! to have the opportunity to inform the Fouse -.;dth regards to this situation because it seems that the media in particular these ~ays a~e giving the impression to the Newfoundland public that this is a lost cause with regards to obtaining the necessary upgrading of the Trans-Canada High~ay, and that myself, as minister, is taking a different measure by means of attempting in a proposal to divert the tractor trailers from Port aux Basques to .Argentia and this is because of the fact that there is no possibility of eetting a federal-provincial agreement.

I am pleased to inform the House of AsseMbly that as a result of ~onths of work over the past year,and months of work involving meetings, discussion, negotiations and a proposal put forv7ard,officially presented by the four Atlantic Provinces and surveys carried out and a study carri .ed out just last Fall \-lith regards to the truck traffic in our Province, that our proposal put fonmrd seeking approximately a quarter of a billion dollars, $250 million f0r this Province to carry out the necessary ·upgrading, reconstruction and in some cases four-lanirig some sections, that that proposal is now being dealt with by the federal Cabinet as of this week.

And I am hopeful that tne federal Cabinet will, as I earlier stated, look at the Matter from t~ro main points. Number one, j_t is essential that soT!'ething be done this year, be co1:1mencecl this year on our Trans-Canada Righr·!ay 11 and it will overcome a major transportation problem in our Province. lmd nuJPber two, it will also help alleviate the high unemp~_oyment situation because it \vHl boost the road buildi .ng construction jndustry. So the proposal of ninety-ten cost-sharing is now before the feQeral level of Cabinet and I am hoping sincerely that in their '"isdom they 'dll

Mareh 17, 1977 Tape 1084 IB-3 l~P.. . :t-mRGA.N: make a decision satisfactory to thj.s Province . SOl'~ Eear , hear! iEA"PY: A supplenentary. }ry_, SPEAKER: The bon. l!lember for one additional supplementary. }.f!t. NEA:PY: }~r. Speaker , the ll'..inister indicated that he ~o1ould be travelling ~~estern Neto.•foundland tomorrow to meet with various groups • . Hould the minister indicate '"ha t particular groups the minister vTill be meeting ~-1 ith, in what coiP.rnunities in the ~ estern part of the Province? 3D04

March 17, 1977 Tape No. 1085 t"'M - 1 MR. SPF..AKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. !1R. MORGAN : Mr. Speaker, tomorrow afternoon a meeting is being convened at Port aux Basques, in the hon. gentleman's district, and that meeting will have representation from the Corner Brook Chamber of Commerce, from the Stephenville Chamber of Commerce, from the Port aux Basques Chamber of Commerce, the Channel and Port aux Basques Tmvn Council, the Lions Club of Port aux Basques, the Hospital Board of Port aux Basques and I missed,I think,the Stephenville Chamber of Commerce as well.

And also organizations such as the Lions Cluh and others. MP .• NEAPY: The unions as well. MR. MORGAN: And the request came in mainly in the beginning for this meeting from the CNR unions,and it was as a result of my proposal being made public that has been put fon~ard to CN ~farine and the Atlantic Provinces Truckers Association to reroute some of the tractor trailer activity into Argentia. Because they are concerned in the Port aux Basques area that this kind of a move is going to hurt the economy of Port au Basques.

So tomorrow the Deputy Minister of the Department of Transportation, the Director of Transportation for the Province, and myself, and I issue an invitation to the }fl!A for the area, the hon. gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) to attend that meeting so we can - MR. NEARY: I accept. MR. MORG&~: - so we can discuss the situation and hopefully not to just accept criticism of the proposal no<t>J put fon1ard but to listen to alternate proposals from the groups in the western part of the Province. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: Mr.

Speaker, I understand under the rules that I have f .. ,..- ~;. ·._::~

March 17, 1977 Tape No. 1985 MR. STPJlCHAN: to readdress my question to the Minister of Tourism if I wish to debate it on the Late Shmv. Could the minister tell us "t-7hether - MR. SPEAKER: It would be preferable if the bon. gentleman just lvent ahead and asked his question without intimating beforehand that he was going to be dissatisfied with the reply. MR.. STRACHAN: My old friend reali~es already I am dissatisfied lvith the reply anyway.

Could the minister tell us the criteria in which he bases the change in the open and close management zones, in particular reference to the Red Wine Mountain area in Labrador? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Tourism. NM- 2 HR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, the professional staff of my department draws a circle around any given herd, caribou or moose or wildlife, and that is deemeQ to be · a restricted area. It is not always done by physical marking. And I think in the case that the hon. gentleman refers to, it was not known at the time that the river .,I believe, "t-7as used as a route or what have you.

In cases such as this, upon request from groups or people in any given area, if they can show that it is necessary that there be provisions allowed for travel, lvhatever means, then certainly we respond to that kind of suggestion and make any necessary changes. MR. STRACK~~~: Mr. Speaker, I am dissatisfied with that. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Windsor-Buchans, follmved by the bon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR.. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, I have a couple of questions for the }1inister of Transportation and Communications with regards to his conversation with the officials of American Smelting and Refining Company. Did the officials concerned indicate to the 3L06

March 17, 1977 Tape No. 1085 NM- 3 MR. FLIGHT: minister the pay load that they intend to put on the highroad as a result of now shipping their ore to Botwood by truck, what tonnage of trucks Hill they expect? How many tons per load will be going per trip? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the tonnage or the pounds per trip is not determined by the company, it is determined by the regulations set down by the Department of Transportation and the Highways Division. There is a limitation with regards to restriction of weights.

They have to concur with these restrictions. However, the indicatibn from the company today in my talks with them is to the effect that they are planning to truck eight trips per day from Buchans to Botwood and that would be in accordance with the weight re~trictions per truck. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr • . ~peaker. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. 11R.

FLIGHT: If the weight load or pay load is such that there is an obvious deterioration in what I have already pointed out as a very badly deteriorated road, would the minister then consider putting a half load limit in effect or else forcing Asarco to reduce the load regardless of what the standards are set right now; are we going to permit Asarco with excessive loads to break that road up, sixty-eight miles to Badger~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: No, Mi. Speaker, the company~Asarco 1

March 17, 1977 Tape no. 108"-' Page 1 - MS Hr. Morgan. will not be given any preference over and above other companies in the Province like, for example, Bowaters,who are now shipping their pulp from Glenwood to Corner Brook. So the Buchans Mining Company will be given the same treatment as other trucking companies who are now trucking in the Province. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde, followed by the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. ROWE: I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice, Sir.

In vievT of the fact that · the matters pertaining to the sealing industry really comes under the jurisdiction of the federal government, and they do have the Seal Protection Regulations, is the minister aware of the fact that these regulations are really not effective, they are really no good, because of the fact that we did have a court case in the .Supreme Court over this \.;hole issue a fe\.J months ago, and it was proven that these regulations v7ere very weak indeed and there are certainly loopholes involved? aware of that? Is the minister MR. HIC!<MAI"l': Yes, Hr.

Speaker, I am aware that there was a matter came before the Supreme Court of Newfoundland last year arising out of a prosecution that \vas taken under the regulations. And I think it was Hr. Justice Nathaniel Noel held that it was - I was going to say ultra vires the Parliament of Canda because it was in international w·aters. My recollection is that the learned justice also indicated that one of the reasons why he had to arrive at that conclusion was that as of that date the Government of Canada had not seen fit to extend its 200 mile economic zone jurisdiction.

That has since taken place, and I would think that the law is now different. I would also hope, but l; do not know this, obviously, that the officials in the Department of Fisheries and the Environroent in consultation with the la~.; officers of the Crovm would

March 17, 1977 Tape no. 108{; Page 2-- MS Mr. Hickman. have takenmatever steps were necessary to cure any loopholes that have been found in the original regulations. Now \·lhilst I am on my feet, Mr. Speaker, a further report on the seal hunt. I have since,within the last few minutes,been in touch again with Chief Superintent Farr lvho indicates that there is not unanimity as yet amongst the masters of all the sealing vessels, Canadian sealing vessel~s at the Front,as to whether or not they want R.C.H.P officei:s on board.

They have one spokesman who has indicated that he is in favour of it,but there is one captain who still wants a little more time. The rationale behind it is that apparently somewhere in the area the Federal Ministry of Transport has an ice-breaker, and if the ice-breaker is directed as they feel it should oe by the Minister of Transport, if he is the minister in Ottawa, to proceed to the vicinity of the ships, and I believe Mr.

Leonard Cowley,who is on board one of the ships is trying to arrange that, that the R.C.M.P. will then go on board the ice-breaker, you know, the whole lot of them and stay in the vicinity of the ships rather than have one man on each boat. But either way we are determined, when weather conditions lift and improve, to get an ad~quate number of R.C.M.P officers out there. There is no problem today because with the fog in the area the harassers cannot get out there and harass. MR. NOLAN: The boats are all in one area, are they? MR. HICIO:f.fu~: I would think they are in close proximity thereof, yes. ~.fR.

ROWE: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROWE: In vie'..r of what the minister said about, you know, that some of the captains may not want R.C.H.P. officers on board the ships and this sort of thing, and the minister had hoped that as a result of the 200 mile limit now that the law would be interpreted a little differently - the minister has only c...'<:pressed hope -

March 17 » 1977 Tape no. 108 t:- Page 3 Mr. Rowe. has the minister made any representation to the Parliament of Canada or to the Fisheries Minister of Canada, any representation calling for a la'" to outla '" any interference from outside groups or any interference whatsoever with the seal fishery within the 200 mile limit? SOl-IE RON. MEHBERS: Hear , beat! MR. ROhTE: A law, an actual law outlawing interference with the seal fishery? That is the only way I can see that it can be cleared up. HR. SPEA..l{ER: The hon. minister. MR. RICKNAN: Yes, unless, Hr. Speaker, I could anticipate a far more favourable response than any Attorney Generals have in the past,

}~arch 17, 1977 Tape 1087 IB-1 I do not think that any request from a province to amend that type of la~,T in Canada vmuld receive very favourable attention or response from a federal minister.

One ~!inister of Justice that I did ask one time to change a law told me that if the fathers of r:onfederat:f.on had intended that provincial Attorneys General wou]o have that kind of right, they would have sai0. so and he could not find it i.n the British North }~erica Act. l~ell be that as it l'lay,I am satisfien that the regulations that are in force today, ~- !arch 17, 1977 are capable of enforcer.:tent because of certain changes that have transpired in the last fev months. .And it is obvious that }'r.

LeBlanc, the lfinister of Environment-Fisheries of Canac:'!a must share that vie111 to an extent that he has had his men taking the necessary ev~dence with a viel-r to laying charges under the regulations. And all they need now, ~(r. Speaker, is the green light to turn the red light on Greenpeace. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. tn.ember for LaPoile follm·:rec'l by the han. gentleman for Bellevue. }'J.' .• NEAPY: r ~r. Speaker, my question :ts for the !'inister of Health.

In vie~..r of the fact that there has been an awful lot of publicity recently over the fact that there may be wicesprear , cancer of the cervix in the female population in ~ewfoundland, would the minister tell the House just how serious this situation is in this Province? ~W. SPEAKER: The bon. r'inister of Health. }fR • COLLINS : :.-!r. Speaker, it is Cl. matter which is serious. All bon. members realize that,I am sure. And it is something which ~ve are discussing now with t~.e nev-!foundland Cancer Treatment Foundation. }ffi. NEARY: A supple~entary. ~T.. SPF.AI<Er: A supplementary. HR.

NEAPY: Can the minister tell the House just how '!"\any clinics or centers we have throughout the Province that Hill allow v-mTTlen to have tht:! pap test done?- - P.mv tl'any centers, you know, arc available to the female population of this Prov:f .nce?

Tape 1087 IB-2 l"P.. SPE./>RP.P: The han. Yinister of Health. 1-11'.. cnLLINS: Yes.All of the centers, Yr. SpeaJrer, have the facility for that. The problem arises v.-rhen we look at the r-rays and me<'lns of the laboratory tests follm,Ting the exar.dnat:f.on. }~. NEAPY: A supplementary. :1-'fP. SPEAKEP.: A supplementary. }U!..

NEAP.Y: ~,Tould the minister tell the House what kind of an education programme or what kind of a public:f.ty progrannne is conducted by his department to encourage women upon the importance of having a regular smear done as a safezuard against invasive carcinoma, in other v~ords, cancer of the cervix? MR. SPI:AKF.T': The hon. }~inister of Health. ~'R. COLLI~S : }fr. Speaker, there j_s a considerable amount of promotjonal work done by the medical profession, by the nurses assodation and by all the other professionals in the health field. ~rr'.. NEAP.Y: A suppJenentary question, l'r. Speaker. ~IF..

SPEA.KEP: I think there is only a very short period of t:l'.rr..e left so I v.rould recognize the hon. ynember for Bellevue. ~~. CALLAN' : Yr. Speaker, my question. is for the !·finister of Tourism. On l~arch 31 last year, almost a year ago, I asked the minj_ster the same question: Poulil jt be necessary for hunters in this Province to successful complete a hunters safety course to qualify for a small or large game license for hunting in the Fall of this year? The han. ~finj ster of Touris111. NR. FICKEY: Yr. Speal·.er, it is not manna tory.

He "t.70uld encourage as many as possible to invo]ve theM.selves in the hunters safety training programme. He ~•ill be taking some steps thj s year to increase our efforts to tn.ake the facilittes and testir.g avajlahle and v1e ence>urage it and '"e vmu1d hope that as 1'1any people as can be acco~modated during t,he coming year take advantage of :f.t because I think I can say that as soon as it is practically possible then ,.ye 't<70Uld ~·rant to go that particu~ar route. ?T.. Cl\LLIL~ : !~r. Speaker, I p:i.ve notice that f. would like to discuss this on the Late Shov7 •

March 17, 1977 J.'R. SPE.t\KER: the debate. Tape 1087 OP.DERS OF THE DAY : Order 4. The hon. member for LaPoile adjourned "'R . NEAPY: l1r. Speaker, I understand I only have three or four minutes left, Sir, in this debate. As the House is aware we are I B-3 · debating Bill 'No. 14, "An Act Respecting The EstabU.shment And Operation of The Polytechnic~!

Institute Of Newfoundland." Well, Sir, again I want to repeat 't-7hat I said yesterday, that I whole­ heartedly without reservation, "t<-7itbout any strings attached, Sir, I whole-heartedly support the principle of this bill, to establish a polytechnical :i.nstitute in this Province. It ~v-ill be a good th1ng, !-~r. Speaker, if it becomes a reality. I again want to re~eJnphasize a point that I made yesterday to the bon. mtnister, that he not allow this matter to fall into the hands of the acac1emics ' ! 3U13

. : March 17, 1977 Tape 1088 JM - 1 MR. NEARY: because if the minister does that, Sir, then it is doomed from the start;that the imput, the foundation upon which this polytech must be built,the imput must come from the private sector, from business and industry, from the trade and from labour. Only in that way, Sir, will it be a success. There must be tremendous research, very intensive research done before plans are finalized to get the polytechnical institute off the ground. It is all right to go ahead with the design,to acquire the site and to start to design the building. I hope, Mr.

Speaker, the building will be a better design than that dull, drab thing that we have over here now on the Prince Phillip Parkway,that College of Trades and Technology with long corridors in it. It is a terrible, terrible design and it is too bad that we cannot afford to bulldoze it down a~together. It is very impractical and it looks bad. So, Mr. Speaker, th~se are the only few words of wisdom and advice that I offer to the minister. I wish the minister well in his negotiations with the Government of Canada. I know it is not going to be easy.

Some of the other ministers may have to give up some of their projects and make this a priority. The Minister of Justice may have to forget about his jails. It is far better to put people in the Fisheries College and in the polytechnical institute than to put them in jail. There is no doubt about that, Sir, that vandalism and crime and drinking goes with unemployment - · no question about that - goes hand in hand. So, Mr. Speaker, I wish the minister well in his negotiations. It will be a good thing if the minister can pull it off.

It will be a good thing for Newfoundland but certainly, Sir, I hope that the minister will carefully research this polytechnical institute before we actually start to put the building up and decide 3t14

.. March 17, 1977 Tape 1088 MR. NEARY: beforehand what is going to be taught inside the walls of this institution. Mr. Speaker, I wish the minister well and I whole-heartedly support this bill. MR. SPEAKER(DR. COLLINS): The bon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few words on this bill JM- 2 and want to express some of the questions and some of the reservations already expressed by my bon. colleagues who already addressed themselves to this particular topic. I want to say, Mr.

Speaker, from the outset that I certainly will be supporting this bill and will give my reasons for so doing as I - MR. WHITE: Just a moment, Mr.Speaker,There is no quorum in the House and I wonder if we could get a few more people in to listen to the bon. member as he makes his remarks. MR. SPEAKER: Order please: A quorum call has been asked for. I ask the law clerk to count the House. I am informed that a quorum is present. The bon. member for Terra Nova. 3(·15

}larch 17, 1977. Tape 1089 RH - 1 MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I think hon. members cannot be condemned for expressing some reservations and having queries about the polytechnical institution. This is an idea that has been bandied around for a number of years. And it is only a matter of getting assurance from the minister that this indeed is not an administrative concept, that it is not an administrative idea,but indeed it will come out to be a physical building at some time. And I do believe that the Premier certainly gave an answer to that.

I, for one, am pleased to see that we will eventually get a building, a physical building, offering programmes which will be called a polytechnical institute. But there are some questions, Mr. Speaker, that arise in my mind with respect to this polytechnical institute.

And these questions are, number one, I would like to. know whether this bill today certainly sets up the mechanism to combine or to co-ordinate the programmes of the Trades College or the Fisheries College, and I am just wondering whether or not these two institutions know, for example, all the ramifications of this particular bill, whether they indeed have had input into this particular bill,because if you are going to co-ordinate two particular schools - I wonder if somebody could provide me with the bill so I can see what it is that is coming together - and if these two institutes are coming together for efficiency, and one of the things we must look at certainly is the duplication that is now going on in the various colleges referred to in the institutions that this bill aims to bring together, I am just wondering what will happen, for example, in the event that this bill will do away with duplication, do away with courses.

For example, . if the bill does away with courses to avoid duplication this obviously will affect staff at both places. Does this mean that we are going to have to get rid of certain staff members, that certain 3{;16

March 17, 1977. Tape 1089 RH - 2 MR. LUSH: members are going to be laid off,. and if that is the case whether this has been thought out and whether these people have been notified. So, Mr. Speaker, that is a concern of mine, is what will happen in the event that this coming together will result in the elimination of certain courses and what will happen to staff members that are teaching these particular courses. Secondly, the bill refers to a board of governors. Again, I think that we should know just what is the composition of this board of governors.

Will it be the people that are now in the principles of the various vocational schools and the trade schools and the College of Trades and Technology or the Fisheries College, will it be these people? Will it be members from these institutions or will it be business people in the community? Just what will be the composition of the board of governors? Just how will they - I believe the bill says that they will be appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor. But, Sir, I do believe that it is incumbent on the minister to tell us something a little more about the composition of the board of governors.

I think that is all I would want to question about the specifics of the bill other than to say that I certainly agree with the establishment of a polytechnical "institute. I cannot see how anybody could object to the establishment of such an institute, realizing of course that it is another dimension, it is providing the youth of this Province, the people of this Province with another dimension in education. Indeed it is another step towards providing equality of educational opportunity in the Province. I want to refer to that just a little later. There is JC17

March 17, 1977 Tape No. 1090 NM- 1 MR. LUSH: another 3uggestion I want to make, Mr. Speaker, with reference to the act and that is that there are three distinguishable types of post-secondary education in the Province today, there are three; there is the university, there is the technical and vocational education,and that includes the College of Trades and Technology and the College of Fisheries and the District Vocational Schools,and the adult and continuing education. And I believe the major issue that must confront this Province in the future is the co-ordination and the articulation of these three seg111ents.

Now I realize that it looks like this bill is going to bring in two, _particularly the technical and vocational aspects of education, but Sir, I believe also that we can co-ordinate the three aspects that I have mentioned, the univeristy, and the adult and continuing education aspects. I believe that we can also consider co-ordinating these three because I do not think the Province can afford the duplication that results from the competing institutions and agency.

So I believe that there are certain segments of ~1emorial Univeristy,for example, certain technical courses that also can be brought under this legislation. Now I think there migrt be people who would argue that you probably cannot bring together technical education and liberal education. I forget who it was who said the antithesis b_et,·Jeen technical education and liberal education is fallacious. He went on to, not in the exact words, but to say that there is no technical education which has some aspects of liberal education,and likewise there is no liberal education but it is technical.

So certainly there is every reason why we should, fran the point of view of economy, that we should be able to bring together all three of these segments. The bill does bring together the technical and the vocational aspects ,which is a good aspect, it \·lill elil'!linate a lot of duplication, a lot nf duplication that the Province cannot afford, but I would suggest that we in the future look into trying

March 17, 1977 Tape no. 1090 NM- 2 MR. LUSH: to bring some of the' courses at Memorial University, some of the technical courses also under this umbrella,if you will. And there must be also co-ordination between these institutes with respect to the adult anr continuing education -aspects because every on~ of these institutes are into some aspect of adult and cont1.nuing education, offering courses in the evening, at night, and I think there must be some co-ordination here to see what duplication there is, to monitor these courses for the sake of economy.

There is another point that I do not think should go unchallenged. The hon. member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) yesterday'i and I do not know whether the said this in jest,but I certainly want to go on record as saying that I do not hold the same opinion that he does of Memorial University. I thought yesterday that he asked the question, you knm11,what has Memorial University done of value to this Province? And again)whether in jest, he went on to say that probably nothing other than to· contribute to the unemployment of the Province. Now,as I said~I do n~t know whether the member was in jest or not. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Mr. Speaker, I did not make any such statement. The member is quoting me completely out of context, Sir. Obviously the hon. gentleman was not following what I said, Mr. Speaker. And I ask the hon. gentleman if he is going to quote me to quote me correctly. Sir, I think that Memorial University has had some value to this Province, And I did not just condemn the university. !1R. LUSH: I do not know, as I say, what the exact-but I thought he made some reference to what exactly was the value

March 17, 1977 Tape 1091 Page 1. HR.LUSH: of Nemoria] , and then I thought he made some reference between the t\·70 and unemployment. I just '17ant to say that I think }~morial University has been a tremendous value to this province. It is very very difficult to measure the value of Memorial to this province in terms of the numbers of teachers that they have turned out in this province. Right nm-r,Sir, t-7e have more degree teachers, more degree teachers at this moment than 'liTe had teachers in 1949.

We could go on do'lm 'through the list; the numbers of engineers that have been produced by l~emorial, the ·: number of doctors, the numbers of scientists, people have gone throughout Canada and throughout tl:J.e United States mak.inr; very worthHhile _ contributions. So I certainly want to go on record as being one person in this House that is very prourl of Hemorial University. But I do suggest to the minister that in the future we look at coordinating these technical and the liberal programmes as well as the technical ones. Hr.

Speaker, this is, as I said before, this is another step tm.rards providing equa1ity-of educational opportunity in this province and there is nobody ca~ argue against the Bill that tvould do that. It is a step tmvards expand:i .ng and diversifying our post-secondary education. ~gain this is certainly necessary. But, Hr. ·speaker, related to equality· of educational opportunity is also another aspect which is very important~and that is accessibility to these programmes. r ~ ere is one thir>.g right now, Sir, right now at this moment~tve have thousands of students in this province -.;.;ralking around.

Students who graduated from Grade XI, students t\'ho graduated -.:vith good marks,and yet they cannot get into a post-secondary institution, particularly trades and vocational schools. This is Hhy I am so concerned that tl:te p0 1ytechnical institute just does not become an adw.inistrative thing, that indeeri it become the physical building, a building that -.rould be able to house more students, a bu .; 1d.; -1- ---t .. , , th'=' ~ac'] i'-:t. cs th .,._ <>re .,..,,,,; -re~ t-o teach in a ..L ........... L 5 \'V-L\..l.lo - \:;. .L.. -L - .L..- ... "" ... ._ - - --.--·- - · ••

Harch 17, 1977 Tape 1091 Page 2. MR.LUSH: technological age, building that "lill have the necessary facilities required to train a~d develop our young people for the skill .s that will be necessary today. One of the great difficulties today is accessibility by our students to be able to get into the institutions that we have. And of course that is related, space is one thing. Right noy1 I am sure that the post secondaJY institutions,particularly the Fisheries College and the College of Tr~d~s and Technology, these buildings now are buTsting and cannot ~ake in more students.

But, Sir, with providi~g the space we must make sure that these prograr nmes are accessible to the students. Today ~ve have many students from low income families. Because of financial problems they cannot get into these places,and I believe that is another point that we must be very concerned about. I know the Canada Hanpo~ver is providing monies. I believe last year it was somewhere areund $12 million. But, Sir, the point remains that '"e still have a large number of students v7ho ~vant to get into our trades schools, who w·ant to get into the _Fisheries Coll~ge;and they cnre discriminated against.

They cannot do it and as long as that is the case then '"e have not made provision of equality of opportunity. But, Sir, it is a step in the right direction. I just want to impress this upon the minister and I know that he is concerned about it and that "7e can mal::.e some moves in this direction to ~ . mprov::!.ng the financial grants to students, the financial . aid that will indeed give us greater equality of educational opportunity. Hr.

Speaker, these are the only concerns • I just l?robab;tv want to make one last point, but I believe in settin~ up these programmes that every effort will be made to involve people from every walk of life, c.verv walk of life ,from business ,frorn industry, yes, and including the academics too, because they have something to offer. I believe in trying to ascertain the needs of the labour

Harch 17, 1977 Tape 1091 Page 3. MR.LUSH: market; we have to, !1-nd with the view to developing courses, of course aimed at fulfilling the needs of that labour market that we must , 3C22

March 17, 1977 •. Tape 1092 RH- 1 MR. LUSH: involve people from every walk of life~ from every segment of society, to insure that we are fulfilling the needs. in an adequate way. One other point, Mr. Speaker, I think we must certainly be concerned with fulfilling the local needs, or let us say our provincial needs. We must make sure that we have programmes that will train students to be able to take care of the kinds of jobs that the Newfoundland labour market will demand. But I think there is another aspect and a bigger one. I also think that we have got to be concerned with training people to work in Canada.

There are also job needs there. And that is one of the justifications for the federal grants that we get because we train people to work on a national level and on an international level. So this is why I think when we are looking at the kinds of programmes we cannot be too parochial. We have got to have a broader perspectiv~ because we are not only training our people to work in Newfoundland, Certainly there are people who want to broaden their horizons. There are people who are going to want to work on the national level. There are people who are going to want to work on the international level.

So I believe that there must be recognition of that fact in this polytechnical institute as well. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. I. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, I wish to talk briefly on this topic. I agree wholeheartedly with the principle of the bill. It is an idea which is close to my heart because for six years I taught at the Fisheries College and put together some of the courses at the Fisheries College.

In fact in was almost twelve years ago that the idea first started for a polytech institute originating with the idea that the Memorial College between Merrymeeting and Harvey Road was of little use, further use because of confined facilities and

March 17, 1977. Tape 1092 RH- 2 MR. STRACHAN: that a new Fisheries College would have to be built. And in fact in 1966 we started the design of the Fisheries College part of the polytechnical institute at that time. So the idea is twelve, thirteen years old, not really seven years old. I am glad to see that it has now come up and now being presented because I think the idea, the principle, the concept of it is an excellent concept.

Since I do not want to talk too long on this, I just want to get into a small part of it which I am concerned about because it was ideas that we developed at the Fisheries C~liege in 1967-1968 1-1hich led me to believe that one has to be very careful in the designing and the structure of a polytechnical institute. I agree wholeheartedly with the comments made earlier by the member for LaPoile(Mr.

Neary) on. the ipea that we cannot build an ivory tower, that we have got to make sure that the polytechnical institute keeps close to the trade, keeps close to the fishermen and various other parts of this Province,which was the initial intention of it. I ~efer this very particuJ: ar~y to the :f.dea :f.n 1968 in the Fisher1es College where we found that within the confines of a building one can teach the basics but it is very difficult to teach the practical aspect.

A technical education must blend the academic and the technical and make sure that the people who were involved in it are out getting their hands wet, getting their feet in the slurry. At that time the only way we could do it was either to try and obtain facilities or to try and get out into the industry.

I remember after we put the ~oo~ technology course together,which was a three year diploma course, we found that we were turning out students to start 'tvith who were not fitting into the fishing industry, and the reason being that they had a basic background, a background of chemistry, physics and additional subjects, but they did not know how to operate within the fishing industry. And before we obtained the premises on 3l.24

March 17, 1977. Tape 1092 RH - 3 MR. STRACHAN: the southside of Joe Brothers we .decid~d then to get in touch with business and t:o p.lace our students during their final year for three, four months at a time on projects within the fishing industry. So we had students travelling all over the Province and working within industry on-the-job-training in some ways, but at the same time using their education, their training in order to develop projects, in order to develop new products within the fishing industry. The point I am really g.etting here - I am being verv concise about it - is that I agree there must be a cross fertilization between the industry, 3(25

March 17, 1977 Tape no. 1093 Page 1 - mw Mr. Strachan:~ the small industry, the fishermen, the trade, the unions and so on, the Salt Fish Corporation, there must be a go-between, a cross fertilization between that and the polytech institute, that if this becomes an ivory tov1er for purely academic work then I think that the whole idea will fail. And I know that the minister is taking this into consideration and will, of course, design something.

But I would put it to him that if you are designing the facilities, the facilities also need to be, as well as classrooms and laboratories, it also needs to be facilities close to an area which is close to the sea or close to water in which you can develop waterfront premises where you can have fishermen landing fish, and you can work on this kind of thing, if the fisheries part of it is going to be developed properly. Also it must be taken into mind that a student cannot be trained within the confines of this, that he must be trained within business.

And I found that when we adopted that concept the best years that I had at the Fisheries College, in 1967 to 1970, the three years then, the best years and the most productive from the students' point of view were the years in which we took them out around this Province, when the students were going to LaScie, when the students -.;.;rere going to Fogo, Lumsden, Valleyfield, going to Bay de Verde, Old Perlican, Bonavista, down to Burin, Grand Bank and Harbour Breton and working on problems which the fishing industry had.

Yne fishing industry would come to us, say they had a problem, a particular problem in the fish meal plant, they had a particular problem with freezing scallops, they had a particular problem with quality control on their fillet line, and then they came to us with that, we could then slot our students in and they would use their expertise in order to help the industry and help the business and also to, of course, help th~Gelves and get th~sclves '"!l(rJJr .J·,.,o

March 17, 1977 Tape no. 1093 Page . 2 - mw Hr. Strachan. involved in the industry. Then we found that industry turned around and instead of rejecting the students, which they had done up to that point- they were rejecting students because the students had no more practical knowledge than anyone else taken off . the street- and when they then accepted that idea, they usually hired these students v1hen they were finished the diploma programme. And this was an encouragement to the student.

He often found the area of the industry that he wished to work on, whether it was on the fishing draggers, whether it was in the fish plant, whether it was in a small plant business, a small plant operation, and they could put this together. And I think this is a very important part that the polytechnical institute should not be an ivory tewer. It should not just be a building.

It should be something which reaches out with all its fingers to the industry all across the Province, and tries to get the students trained and brought into line with the industry and so they can automatically, when they graduate, virtually move into industry.

And it pleases me very much many times, when I move around the Province, to see how many of the students that we producen ~t that time, how many in these last three years are actively working in industry, still working, and in fact many of them have reasonably senior positions~regarding they have only been there four or five years, that they are in industry. They are now starting to develop their own small businesses. I know of two small businesses started off by these students who have had the incentive to move on further from industry and create something of their mvn. So I would like to put this point here.

I could talk about this for considerable time. I have great deep feelings about it. But I think that point will suffice and will be sufficient to bring forward the situation I am bringing to you. 3(;2'7

March 17, 1977 Tape no. 1093 Page 3 - mw Mr. Strachan. I support the bill. I support the principle of it. I hope that something will come of it, that it will move on from here, and we will see the polytechnical institute. I think that, although the university has been of tremendous advantage to this Province, I feel that there has been far too much emphasis on academic training,in the academic side of it, and that this Province should look very clearly to the technical side, because that is where the jobs are. That is where we can plug many of our citizens in and many of the young people want to go in.

And instead of having people with a Bachelor of Arts degrees floating around the Province with no practical experience, they could be trained in the technical side of things, which I believe was the original concept behind the College of Fisheries by the ex-Premier of the Province, the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood). So I heartily endorse the principle of this bill and hope that it comes to fruition. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear: 3C.28

March 17, 1977 ~rp.. SPEAK:RB: }·'R. SHALUJOOD: Tape 1094 The bon. member for To:·d.llingate. I, of course, would be quite an unusual and extraordinary person if I rlid not 'tvelcome this bill, if I did IB-1 not support it and support it very heartily indeed. And I do so in the strong hope that the government really mean business, that they are not going to be content nerely to call the College of Fisheries., Navigation, t-farine Engineering and Varine Electronics and the College of Technology by a new name.

The minister did not.,as I understand it,make it abso]utely clear as to whether the Fisheries College,to give it its short name.,and the College. of Technology are to continue as such in the existing buildings. I did not gather that.

I did gather from the Premier yesterday that the intention is to erect a new building,what might perhaps be called a central building,1vith "~;rings scattered about, one of thera being the present Fisheries College, the otl1Cr being the College of Trades and Technology, v!ith the College of Fisheries perhaps befng moved out of the present building into a someFhat larger one, but not the ma:tn central building that it is proposed to erect, that is proposed provided the government of ranacla '\;Till give substantial financial assistance to the government to do so. MR.

NEARY: On a site that you picked out ~by the v1ay. Nm•! I do not know what site they have in rnind. MR. NEARY Ridge "!;>oacl .. YR. SHPLUJOOD: The site that I picked out -and, ~r. Speaker, I personally picked it out, That is to say I drove around and around and around in my car to try to find the right spot for the ne>v polytechnical. I v7as torn bet\veen t'•!O desires. One Has to put it near the university for two reasons.

One reason being to p,ive it a certain dignity, to try to break clmm a feeling that ,,Tas beginning to emer ge in _Newfoundlard, na!llely, that if you are in the university you are somebody and if you are in the technical college or the Fisheries College you are somebody much less. And that if therefore the new polytechnic were to be put~physically speaking,physically near to the university• some of the prestige of the university might rub off on the polytechnic. 3(29

¥.arch 17, 1977 Tape 1094 IB-2 The second reason was that as there was an adMitted, an undoubted nee0 at the university for large athletic grounds~~mich i.t does not possess toc1~y, a large football field or more than one football field, and other grounds for athletic purposes, that these could be used also by the stucents of the polytechn:i .cal.

Therefore instead of having to have tlvo completely different sets of facilities,one for the university at consj .derable cost and the other for the polytechnical, one set might serve both institutions, and at a considerable saving in capital expenditure and also for the purpose of furthering the idea of the university students and the polytechnical students rather merging, having certain things in common. So therefore the site I selected was in Pippy Park.

Pippy Park,as the House must kno~or, is a substantial area of land in a sense surrounding the university ca~pus, the presently existlng caMpus, the new campus. Pippy Park goes to the l~est of the campus and to the East of the campus but mostly to the North and consists,! believe,of a good many hundreds of acres. I have forgotten just hmv roany hunclreds.

I have related in my memoirs the story of my taking the telephone one day and calling the late Chesley Pippy and saying to him, "Ches,have you got a million dollars to spare~" ~~~.Jell", he said, "I do not knoP about to spare." "~,Jell'', I said, "have you got a million dollars?" He said that he did. "'-Tell", I said, "I Fould like to have it." 3[}30

March 17, 1977 Tape 1095 JM- 1 MR. SMALLV100D: 11 What do you want it for?" I said. "'fo pay some of the cost of creating a big park which if you gave us the $1 million we would be glad and proud to name after you in gratitude for the $1 million. 11 He said, "You have it, Joe, 11 and sure enough we did. We got the $1 million. It was the quickest and the easiest million I ever got in a three or four minute telephone call. He has been paying it,and his estate since his death, regularly every year because there was no point in his writing a cheque for $1 million and handing it over.

Instead it is being paid at a rate of so much a year until the full million is received. In Pippy Park,I think on the higher level of the campus - I would say almost immediately to the North of the campus up on the higher level·-is the site I selected for the polytechnical. The House may be amused to know that I had a hobby of selecting sites. ! _selected t~~ site for this ' building uncle: circumstances that were terr~bly tragic for me personally,accompanied by the late Dr. Jame~ McGrath and Mr. Gregory Power. I drove up to the top of Signal Hill and they were with me.

I was driving but they were with me to keep me company and try to keep my mind off a certain tragedy,and we parked up on top of Signal Hill and I began,as I had done again and again but not from that particular spot,to look over the city to find a site for this building, this present building, Confederation Building. I did. I found what looked like an excellent empty space and I begau to trace it and I drew their attention to it. I said, 11 You see St. Thomas's Church. 11 Yes-,they identified St. Thomas's Church,and you see this and you see that and you see the road that goes in and so-On.

I traced it out with my finger pointing at the air and they could 'not identify the field~a meadow,but it was a large meadow. So we drove in to it and got as far as ~ Is it called Gooseberry Lane? Just down in front here where Isaac Mercer, the lawyer,lives. Gooseberry Lane. We drove up Gooseberry Lane and stopped the car and then climbed over the fence into the field and we walked around r 3031.

March 17, 1977 Tape 1095 JM- 2 MR.. SMALLWOOD: J.. the site of this present building. _ MR. NEARY: All trees then,was it? MR. SMALLWOOD: No, this was a meadow. It was a meadow, a grassy meadow and it belonged to the Anglican Church. It belonged to the orphan aid - or at least it belonged to the Anglican Orphanage and the government bought it and proceeded to erect this building on it. MR. NEARY: And the Opposition thought you were mad building this beautiful bnilding out in the wilderness. MR. SMALLWOOD: Well, we were criticized,but governments ar~ always criticized.

So frankly I find· precious little thrill in criticizing the present government because I spent twenty-three years being criticized and frankly I just do not get any thrill out of it. If I did perhaps I would do a little more criticizing. But I did not mind the criticism. I felt what we were doing was the right thing. This po1ytechnical has been a dream of mine for a good many years. We did not build it. Five years, going on six years have passed since I went out of office and it is still not built. I do hope that they will make a beginning this year, six years after I have gone out.

I spoke repeatedly in public of this great dream of a Newfoundland polytechnical and it was well known, publicly known, r 3C32

March 17, 1977 Tape No. 1096 NM - 1 MR. S!1ALLHOOD: this is one of my dreams. Now perhaps at the hands of the present administration,provided they can get some financial help from Uncle Ottawa, our rich uncle, they may be able _to go ahead and put up a central building. I wish that the minister when he closes the debate will spell out if he is in a position to do so, spell out more particularly just what the polytechnical is to be, not immediately, not instantly but in the next three or four or five or eight years.

Is it to consist of one fine commodious central building, possibly on the same site that I chose or some other site~ And is it to have branches, one for Fisheries and Navigation. and Harine En!!ineerinl!" ;:mn F.1 .,.,..t-,.nni ,..c:, •. >hi ,.t. is what the present college is, the other College of Technology, and then others specializing in perhaps a more advanced form of technological education? And if he could - now I was going to say if he can do it we would greatly appreciate it. I ~ully understand that a government may come to a decision.

I can imagine a Cabinet meeting, I can imagine the Premier saying, or perhaps the Minister of Education, "Look here, what about this polytechnical? Are ~.re ever going to do it or not? ' The times are not propitious perhaps to launch into the deep now, v1e have not got the oodles of money that we had had during some parts of the last twenty-seven or twenty-eight years and perhans we should hold our horses and leave this for something that may be more urgent." Then I can imagine someone saying, "Well, t.re do not have to lash out a lot of money at the moment.

We already have the beginning of the polytechnical in two colleges and let us incorporate those two colleges in the new polytechnical. Let us take our time, ~et the blueprints, get the plans made,and let us approach Ottawa and see if we can get some money from Ottawa. But in the meanwhile let us announce it as our policy. Let us bring a bill into the 3033

March 17, 1977 Tape No. 1096 MR. SMALLWOOD: House to give us the authority to create the polytechnical." Then some member of the Cabinet might be sufficiently politically minded to say, "Sure, and let us change the name of the Fisheries College and let us change the name of the College of Technology and put a new name on it and it will be ours." NM- 2 Now that ~10uld be a purely political approach which I am sure the Minister of Education would never even think of, it wou1d never come in his mind. It might come in the mind of some more politically minded members of the Cabinet.

I will, I hope, be pardoned by the House if I express a little vanity in this matter. I had some little something to do with creating a university,, and there are not many men living today in Canada who ever 'had anything to do with the creation of a university. That is a proud privilege for any man. And I had some little thing to do with the creation of the College of Fisheries and with the College of Technology and with the creation of some seventeen trade or vocational schools in Newfoundland, the only ones there are. There has not been one built since I went out of office.

I would hope to see one or two or maybe three others built when times become more propitious for that from the financial point of view. The House will not, Mr. Speaker, the House has not found me in the last year and a half or lvhatever it is since I have been back in this Chamber, nor will they find me in this session, or as long as I am a member of the House, unless I Rm a member five or six or eight years from nm.;, by lvhich time I would hope the Province will be much more nearly on a financial even keel than she is today, the House will not find me advocating very much 3l'34

¥arch 17, 1977 Tape 1097 IB-1 to be done in the way of capital a~count expenditure 's, even on roads, even on paving, even on hospitals, even on water and sewer projects, even on so stmple and primative conveniences as artesian vTells. Still less l:J111 the ~!ouse hear !'le advocating anything but Modest capital account expenditures on anything because it is roy profound conviction that we have got to have a halt, 't<!e have gClt to have a hesitation, a pause, an arm1st:tce in heavy capital account expenditure.

I co not believe there are very rr.any hon. members in this Eouse today \·Tho share that vievr, I do not believe there are very I'lany hon. me!!'bers of this House o; even for that matter very !Tlany f:on. ministers of the CroFn in Nel•foundland today \vho share my feel~.ng that ,.Te are perilously near to deep, deep fi_nancial trouble. Emvever, that is my vievr and so I am not even going to urge the minj ster or his colleagues to get cracking on this polytechnical. I am not going to urge that they begin lashing out money on that. I believe ~·r.

Speaker as in duty bound has something to say, and perhaps I vmuld yield the floor to His Honour for a morrent. 1iR. SrEAKER: I thank the hon. gentler1an . .A..nd as hon. members knovJ at five o'clock I am required to inform hon. I!lembers vThat three Matters will be debated at five-thirty. I have received notice of three so no selection Has necessary. They 'vill be debated :i.n the order in which I received ther.>.,v!hich is the order in vrhich I Hill read them. Fi.rst,the hon. member for LaPoile arisinr, from a 0,uestion asked the hon.

Hi_nister of Justice; the subject matter, increasecl drinking especially by the youth of this Prov1nce. Number t\·JO, the hon. t'lember for ;-;agle T?iver arising from a question asked the hon. '-'.inister of TourisM; su~ject Inatter, criteria by \,..flich open and closed man~gement zones are deter!'lined especially in P_ed l-line Piver and mountain area. Thirdly, the hon. !'let'lber for Bellevue arisjng from a question asked the hon. ~·inister of Tourism; subject matter, need for hunter safety course for larr-e and small gw_e hunttng 3G35

March 17, 1977 ?1R. ~PK-'.KEP..: license. Tape 1097 The hon. member for T,;.rillingate. IB-2 HR. SHALLH00D: ~·r. Speaker, the Rouse knows, I think the Province kno'li7S ~that I have enormous respect for the han. r.'.e!'lber for - I always forget- LaPoile (Yr. Neary); Not only enormous respect but a lot of affection. I think that Newfoundland is better off because a man of his caliber is a member of this Rouse. I believe this Rouse is better off. I thinl: the v7hole institution of representative government is better off, it is strengthened, by the fact that he is a member of this Chamber.

And ,;.re can all feel prou~ to be a member of the same Chamber of ~-Thich he is a member. Although we do not ah.:rays agree 'vith him. Though Pe rlo not ahmys share compJ e tely every vieF he expresses - and he has expressed a view from ti.me to time about the university that I do not share. I do not think for a moment that the university is perfect ·. I do not kno¥: of any human institution that is. It is not perfect but, Sir, '"here is the pen that is going to v~ite an account of the eno~ous good that the vlOrk of the unjversity since 1949 has brought about in Ne'ivfoundl8 .nd?

This afternoon you have in this Province I suppose some 30,000 to 40,000 young '!'len and ~mmen "''ho have gone through the universHy, some 30,000 to 40,000 young Newfoundlanders. The day v7e became a Province of Canada we had in the whole of NevTfounc'l.l<md perhaps as many as 500 or 600 persons '"ho had ever been to university. There ,. 3C'36

March 17, 1977 Tape no. 1098 Page 1 - mw Mr. Smallwood. might have been that many. I remember speaking at a speech day meeting of one of the colleges here in town in which I pointed out that here tonight in this audience are more persons - I think the hon. Hinister of Justice was the chairman of that board, because I believe it was the United Church College what is it called? MR. HICKNAN: MR. SMALLHOOD: Prince of Wales College.

Prince of Wales College. - and he was there in his bib and tucker that night, dressed up and looking extremely handsome, and I was the principal speakertas usually was the case in those events - and I pointed out that there that night, in that assembly, there were more persons ,.,ith university degrees than there had been in the whole of Newfoundland the day we becane a Province. My colleague, the hon. member for ~h~r~yer_ it is - Terra Nova - these new ~ancy names that the government in my absence put on a lot of the districts take a little getting used to.

Perhaps if you were here in the Chamber ,.,hen that bill was debated, you would remember their names a little more closely MR. NEARY: Or ' would be more confused. l1R. S:HALUlOOD: - or be more confused perhaps than ever. I do not know.

But as my hon. friend said here today,the numbers of persons in Newfoundland with university degrees, medical doctors, engineers, latryers, educators, thousands, quite literally there are thousands of New-foundlanders this afternoon in this Province. and the great majority of them are in the Province - some,it is true 1 have had to leave the Province, and seek work or ambition, the realization of ambition in greener fields,or 3C37

March 17, 1977 Tape no. 1098 Page 2 - mw Mr. Smallwood. what appeared to be greener' fields, but the vast majority of them are still here. They are living here. They are working here. They are serving Newfoundland. They are serving Newfoundland in a countless number of ways, and they are serving Newfoundland with superior minds, minds that have been honed,·minds that h~ve been drilled, minds that have been shaped and molded to greater use, and sharper use. And Newfoundland is benefiting enormously, Mr. Speaker, from that fact.

As a matter of fact,if you take all of the graduates of our university,and all who have studied at the College of Fisheries,and all who have studied at the College of Technology, and all who have gone through the seventeen trade schools, you are talking of close to 100,000 Newfoundlanders, men and women, close to 100,000 who have had their lives changed, and for the most part, with precious few exceptions, improved.

They are better men and better women because these facilities and these opportunities were created and have been'operating for their benefit and for the benefit, may I remind the House, of tens of thousands and scores of thousands yet to come, because there are youngsters all over Newfoundland today, the sons and daughters of fishermen and labourers and loggers and miners and railroaders and shop and office workers, not only the sons and daughters of rich merchants and rich lawyers and rich doctors and rich "" civil servants, but the sons and daughters of ordinary people all over Ne\-lfoundland, there are tens of thousands, .indeed Sir, there are scores of thousands because you have in the ·schools today something I think close to 200,000 students, I do not remember the precise number, and scores of thousands of them and other youngsters who will take their places, scores of thousands of NevJfoundlanders will go through that univeristy ~ 3038

Harch 17, 1977 Tape no. 1098 Page 3- 1W .• Hr. Smallwood. . artd through the College of Fisheries and the College of Technology. And who has got the brains, ,.;ho has got the skill , who has got the imagination, '"ho has got the knowledge, and who has got the mental grasp to be able to spell out the wonder and the marvel of the good that that \olill do to Newfoundland? Truly t 3C39

March 17, 1977 Tape No. 1099 NM- 1 MR. SMALLWOOD: we are living in another world, truly we are living in another Newfoundland, and an incalculable part of that change has been brought about by the proliferation, the escalation, the enormous, the staggering increase in the numbers and the quality of education institutions scattered from Cape Chidley, you might say, to Cape Race and throughout the entire Province.

Today amazingly, amazingly, and I suppose you would have to have gone through Newfoundland for two-thirds of your life before Confederation and one-third since, as I have done, to be amazed by it, to appreciate the miracle of it, today, Sir, in settlements all over this Island and in many parts of Labrador, today you have schools which would have made the people in St. John's gasp, and almost uncontrollably proud if they had had them. There was no school in St. John's in 1949, not one equal in magnificence of structure equal to schools that were built after Confederation in dozens, if not hundreds of places.

And I remember being present at the opening of that magnificent school in Springdale, that which the hon. member down there somewhere, up on the South Coast, was then one of the principal figures. Springdale, I remembered the day I ·opened . that school with a brass band there that came all the way I believe from Corner Brook to play music.

I remembered in opening that school that the first time I had go~e to Springdale, after Confederation came, I had been there once before by boat, but the first time after Confederation I got to Springdale by taking the train to Badger - there was no other way to get to Badger, there was not a helicopter in Newfoundland at that time - the train to Badger, a car down the Halls Bay Line to South Brook, and from South Brook a boat put off to sea and go out around the Cape and up into Springdale. That is how I had reached there. That was the only way you could get there except to take a schooner. MR.

PECKFORD: Would the hon. member just permit a comment? He should · ~ 3C40

March 17, 1977 Tape No. 1099 NM- 2 MR. PECKFORD: not forget when he is talking about Springdale and he is talking about that school,that that school was named after a good friend of the hon. member's and who is still alive. MR. SMALUJOOD: That is right. In fact I think I put the name on it. Would someone refresh my memory? AN HON. MEMBER: Grant. MR. SMALLHOOD: Harvey Grant. As a matter of fact,! think the hon. minister was closely associated with the school and the hon. member for Southwest Coast - AN RON . ME~ffiER : Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Yes, was either the principal or one of the principal officers of that school. But that was only one. There are schools all over Nevrfoundland today ~nd Labrador, that would put to shame the best schools there \-lere in St. John's the day v7e became a Province, I mean architecturally, in size and dimension and so on. vle had some fine schools in St. John's ­ at that t:!me, we had Bishop Field College, St. Bon's College, the Salvation Army College dovm on Springdale Street, we had Holloway School, v.1e had Prince of Wales, and lve had Curtis Academy, we had MacPherson.

But all of these would fall far short of some of the great school buildings we have in Labrador and other parts of Newfoundland today. In all that picture of education expansion an~ improvement, the university has played a great central part because there must be, I do not knmv, ~here must be thousands­ are there not?-thousands of teachers teaching in Ne~v-foundland , today,either in classroom or as inspectors or supervisors or in some kind of executive capacity which -plays a great

part in the development of education, are there not thousands of teachers today in Newfoundland actually in the education field who got their training at the univeristy, are there not thousands? 3C41

March 17, 1977 Tape No. 1099 MR.. SMALUJOOD: The Minister of Education,! take it,is a product of Memorial Univeristy. The han. gentleman from Terra Nova (Mr. Lush),! take it is a product of that university. 3L42 NM- 3

March 17, 1977 Tape 1100 MR. SMALLWOOD: I take it that the Minister of Mines and Energy is a product of that university. I take it that the member for the Southwest Coast here up in Fortune Bay and Bay d'Espoir is that it? MR. SIMMONS: Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. JM- 1 MR. SMALUJ'OOD: Burgeo-Bay d 'Espoir is a product of that university, and how many others? MR. SIMMONS: The member for Lewisporte, Bay Verte-White Bay. MR. SMALLWOOD: The member for Lewisporte, the member for - and so on. Who is going to put - MR. LUSH: Well, this one. MR. ROUSSEAU: Somebody from the West Coast. We are all the same here. MR.

LUSH: The Minister of Education. MR. WHITE: Saint Francis Xavier, yes. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, welll a great many from the West Coast have come in to Memorial University and are - MR. ROUSSEAU: And we also went across. MR. SMALLWOOD: They had been doing that even before Confederation and the few- there were not many. You had to be someone. You had to be the son of someone to go away to university. That was one of the great reasons we had for creating our own university so that you would not have to be the son of a prosperous merchant or some other person of more than ordinary wealth.

You could be the son or daughter of very humble parents and all you needed was to have a brain, all you needed was to be smart, all you needed was to be ambitious and the son of the poorest, the poorest in the land were able to go~and did in fact go and they are still going to our university which is - MR. FLIGHT: It is not so any more though. MR. SMALLWOOD: Not so any more? I would be sorry to hear that. I would be sorry to hear that. I would imagine that out of the 3C43

March 17, 1977 Tape 1100 JM - 2 MR. SMALLWOOD: 6,000 or 7,000 or 8,000 students at the university this afternoon there are many hundreds~if not a couple of thousand who are from very modest and moderate- families of very modest means. I would not think that you have 6,000 or 7,000 students up there today who are only from well-to-do families. If it were otherwise I would feel deep regret and considerable shame and no little anger because the day surely has gone in Newfoundland when education is just a privilege for the privileged classes. Surely that day thanks be to God is gone.

Yes, the bon. member wants to - MR. FLIGHT: I would like to make this observation and see if you would agree, Sir, that whether they are from humble families or the mighty that to put a year through Memorial University this day and age costs around $2,800 per year. I submit to you that anyone who is in Memorial from the low income bracket that you refer to,and they complete their education,will come out $10,000 to $12,000 in debt. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, wel;l let me put it this way.

All my life since I was a little youngster I have been reading and hearing of students,espec!ally in the United States, more there than in almost any other country,because in England it was always the case until quite recently when the red brick universities began to spring up- it was until quite recently in Britian you had no chance to get in to one of the great universities unless you were the son of wealthy people.

I remember that Sir Richard Squires and Lady Squires entered their sons names - Dick, Bobby and Norman - entered the names of their three sons when they were one or two years old for entrance in England. You had to be someone and you had to get on the waiting list. It is not like that today. But in the United States it was quite different. It was entirely commonplace in the United States for young fellows to work as waiters - even in 3C44

March 17, 1977 Tape 1100 JM- 3 MR. SMALLWOOD: the university they would be waiters serving the other students - work their way to earn their way to get through university. I would imagine that there are still perhaps several million young Americans who get through university by working and earning their way.

Now there does not seem to b"e that opportunity in Newfoundland,but so long as a young man or woman can borrow the money, so long as there is someone who will take a chance to lend the money - $5,000 - $8,000 - $10,000 - $12,000 to get through university and get a degree and then get in the big money­ so long as that can be done all that is needed is that the students be healthy, be energetic, be ambitious, be smart and determined 3(45

March 17, 1977. Tape 1101 RH- 1 MR. SMALLWOOD: to get ahead and in that way sti~l,today~no matter how thin times may have become, still today there are thousands and thousands of young Newfoundlanders, male and female, who somehmv can get through university. I remember reading a book by a Canadian ,I forget his name now at the moment1 who visited Russia as . a tourist - well he is a newspaper man, ' h.e is a wPl 1 -knQwn iournalist and a rightist not a leftist - and he visited the Soviet Union and he went down in the southern part, Tashkent, Samarkand, and what is the other one, those three famous - .

UR • NOLAN: And the Black Sea? MR. SMALLWOOD: Well, no, yes, getting down almost to the Northern boundary of India. He visited there and what did he find? He found in the university, I think it wa~ Tashkent,or it might have been Samarkand, he found thousands of young students - these are Russians, a communist country - he found thousands of students who were going to school at six o'clock in the morning, going to university at six o'clock in the morning and were working ten and twelve hours a day. You might almost sav it was like slave labour. But they would go through hell to get a university education.

They would dress shabbily, theiraccommodation was shabbyJ they did not live on the fat of the land. I was in Cuba and I will never forget the impression that was made on my mind as I \vent through one university with 30,000 students, 30,000, and not one of them, not one paid as much as a nickel for tuition, for books, for papers, for clothing, for food, for board, for accommodation, not one cent, the 30,000 students.

But every one of them in the college of medicine ;where they had 3,000 or 4,000 students, in the college of engineering , where they had 3,000 or 4,000 students,in the different colleges that made up that university, what did you have' You had them going out and working so many days a week. And they earned their way. They will not pay r 3046

March 17, 1977. Tape 1101 RH - 2 MR. SM..-\LLWOOD : any cash. As a matter of fact they get paid cash for the work they do. And in addition to getting paid some cash for the work they do they get their education free, their food, their clothing. Now they look like a bunch of tramps. They are all dressed in blue denim, we used to call it - what is the new word for that now? _l__"ffi. RIDEOUT: Jeans. MR. SMALLWOOD: Jeans, jeans, jeans. I was brought up to call it blue denim. The only people that wore blue denim in Newfoundland were the longshoremen.

If you saw any man in ·~· John's with blue denim he was a longshoreman. That was almost like a uniform. Today it is a uniform for college students, is it not? Well you talk about the condition of Newfoundland today. You have, Mr. Speaker, you have a most remarkable contrast. You have two Newfoundlands, side by side. One is tens of thousands of unemployed men and women, tens of thousands, maybe thirty or forty thousand unemployed this afternoon, no jobs. And I saw the time when if you had that number of unemployed in Newfoundland you would have a revolution every afternoon and another one every night.

You would have mobs. You would have parades. You would have them tearing down buildings. Why do you not have that today?

Because for some of them, and there could be room for argument as to how many, what proportion, but for the substantial number of the people who are unemployed today they are drawing more payment from the Unemployment Insurance Fund than the highest paid workers ever dreamed that they would ever get for hard work in Newfoundland .To draw that unemployment insurance - now not the electricians, not the plumbers, not the highly paid skilled workers, but tens of \ thousands surely of ordinary, not particularly well skilled Newfoundlanders are 3D47

¥arch 17, 1977 Tape 1102 IB-1 }1'J'. S~ALUJnon: not suffering. You go around r.onception Bay today as I do e~ery Saturday - I drive around t~e bay, I go do~m to Carbonear end I go :f.n the shopping center and then I go to all the shopping centers right along. There are six of them now·, six. 'HP.. WlPCf.N: You go to them all? ~. S1''ALLlJfH'I': I go to them al.l, every Saturday. ~'T- . P(YP_CAN: You are not campaigning · are you? I like to rni~~ Pith people. I like to look. I like to see people. I 1 ike to see ho"7 they are living. And ·phe