Manitoba Committee Hansard — 31 October 2018 (Social and Economic Development Committee, Sitting 7, 41st Legislature, 3rd Session)

41-3-sed7

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session – Forty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development Chairperson Mr. Dennis Smook Constituency of La Verendrye Vol. LXXI No. 7 - 6 p.m., Wednesday, October 31, 2018 ISSN 1708-6698

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Forty-First Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLUM, James Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP BINDLE, Kelly Thompson PC CLARKE, Eileen, Hon. Agassiz PC COX, Cathy, Hon. River East PC CULLEN, Cliff, Hon. Spruce Woods PC CURRY, Nic Kildonan PC DRIEDGER, Myrna, Hon. Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph, Hon. Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FIELDING, Scott, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC FLETCHER, Steven, Hon. Assiniboia Man. FONTAINE, Nahanni St. Johns NDP FRIESEN, Cameron, Hon. Morden-Winkler PC GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib.

GOERTZEN, Kelvin, Hon. Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Clifford Emerson Ind. GUILLEMARD, Sarah Fort Richmond PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC ISLEIFSON, Len Brandon East PC JOHNSON, Derek Interlake PC JOHNSTON, Scott St. James PC KINEW, Wab Fort Rouge NDP KLASSEN, Judy Kewatinook Lib. LAGASSÉ, Bob Dawson Trail PC LAGIMODIERE, Alan Selkirk PC LAMONT, Dougald St. Boniface Lib. LAMOUREUX, Cindy Burrows Lib. LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas NDP LINDSEY, Tom Flin Flon NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP MARTIN, Shannon Morris PC MAYER, Colleen, Hon. St.

Vital PC MICHALESKI, Brad Dauphin PC MICKLEFIELD, Andrew Rossmere PC MORLEY-LECOMTE, Janice Seine River PC NESBITT, Greg Riding Mountain PC PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine, Hon. Midland PC PIWNIUK, Doyle Arthur-Virden PC REYES, Jon St. Norbert PC SARAN, Mohinder The Maples Ind. SCHULER, Ron, Hon. St. Paul PC SMITH, Andrew Southdale PC SMITH, Bernadette Point Douglas NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC SQUIRES, Rochelle, Hon. Riel PC STEFANSON, Heather, Hon. Tuxedo PC SWAN, Andrew Minto NDP TEITSMA, James Radisson PC WHARTON, Jeff, Hon.

Gimli PC WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC WOWCHUK, Rick Swan River PC YAKIMOSKI, Blair Transcona PC

199 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT Wednesday, October 31, 2018 TIME – 6 p.m. LOCATION – Winnipeg, Manitoba CHAIRPERSON – Mr. Dennis Smook (La Verendrye) VICE-CHAIRPERSON – Mr. Doyle Piwniuk (Arthur-Virden) ATTENDANCE – 11 QUORUM – 6 Members of the Committee present: Hon. Messrs. Cullen, Eichler, Hon. Ms. Squires Mses. Fontaine, Klassen, M essrs. Marcelino, Piwniuk, Mrs. Smith, Messrs. Smook, Wishart, Wowchuk PUBLIC PRESENTERS: Bill 29 –The Wildlife Amendment Act (Safe Hunting and Shared Management) Mr. Scott Phillips, Municipalities in the Ag Zone Mr.

Cameron Neurenberg, private citizen Mr. Archie McPherson, Reeve for Westman Area Ms. Michelle Assailly, private citizen Mr. Joseph Maud, First Nations in Treaty 2 Territory Mr. Cornell McLean, Lake Manitoba First Nation Ms. Cindy McKay, private citizen Mr. Brian Kotak, Manitoba Wildlife Federation Mr. Jimmy Thunder, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs Mr. Jeremy McKay, private citizen Bill 35 –The Crown Lands Amendment Act (Improved Management of Community Pastures and Agricultural Crown Lands) Mr. Dean Harder, National Farmers Union, Manitoba Mr. Brian Lemon, Manitoba Beef Producers Mr.

Christian Artuso, Bird Studies Canada Bill 223 –The Child and Family Services Amendment Act Mr. Manoj Nowrang, private citizen Ms. Mary LeMaître, private citizen Ms. Michelle Scott (and Ms. B reanne Hepp - by leave), Ma Mawi Wi Chi Itata Centre Bill 228 –The Animal Shelter and Rescue Awareness Day Act Mr. Kevin Toyne, Winnipeg Humane Society Ms. Katie Powell, Save A Dog Network Canada WRITTEN SUBMISSIONS: Bill 29 –The Wildlife Amendment Act (Safe Hunting and Shared Management) Joe Masi, Asso ciation of Manitoba Municipalities Tom Teichroeb, Manitoba Beef Producers Michel Leclaire, The Wildlife Society, Manitoba

Chapter James Battershill, Keystone Agricultural Producers Pamela Robins, Function Four Ltd.

Bill 35 –The Crown Lands Amendment Act (Improved Management of Community Pastures and Agricultural Crown Lands) James Battershill, Keystone Agricultural Producers Lynne Fernandez, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives Barry Ross, Association of Manitoba Community Pastures Duncan Morrison, Manitoba Forage and Grassland Association Katherine Storey, private citizen MATTERS UNDER CONSIDERATION: Bill 29 –The Wildlife Amendment Act (Safe Hunting and Shared Management) Bill 35 –The Crown Lands Amendment Act (Improved Management of Community Pastures and Agricultural Crown Lands) Bill 36 –The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (Impaired Driving Offences) Bill 223 –The Child and Family Services Amendment Act Bill 228 –The Animal Shelter and Rescue Awareness Day Act * * *

200 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 31, 2018 Mr. Chairperson: Good evening. Will the Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development please come to order. This meeting has been called to consider the following bills: Bill 29, The Wildlife Amendment Act (Safe Hunting and Shared Management); Bill 35, The Crown Lands Amendment Act (Improved Management of Community Pastures and Agricultural Crown Lands); Bill 36, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (Impaired Driving Offences); Bill 223, The Child and Family Services Amendment Act; Bill 228, The Animal Shelter and Rescue Awareness Day Act.

I would like to inform all in attendance of the provisions in our rules regarding the hour of adjournment. A standing committee meeting to consider a bill must not sit past midnight to hear public presentations or to consider cla use-by-clause of a bill, except by unanimous consent of the committees–of the committee. In addition, if necessary, the Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development will meet again to consider these bills tomorrow, November 1st, at 6 p.m., in room 255. We have a number of presenters registered to speak tonight on various bills, as noted on the list of presenters before you.

On the topic of determining the order of public presentations, I will note that we have some out -of-town presenters in att endance, marked with an 'asterik' on the list. With these considerations in mind, then, in what order does the committee wish to hear the presentations? Mr. Ian Wishart (Portage la Prairie): As presented numerically. Mr. Chairperson: As presented numerically–no, it– the–as been put–Ms. Fontaine? Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns ): To proceed with the out-of-town guests first, please. Mr.

Chairperson: Is that agreed by the committee to proceed with the out -of-town guests first? [Agreed] Written submissions from the following persons have been received and distributed to the committee members: Joe Masi, Association of Manitoba Municipalities, on Bill 29; Tom Teichroeb, Manitoba Beef Producers, on Bill 29; Michel Leclaire, The Wildlife Society, Manitoba Chapter, on Bill 29; James Battershill, Keystone Agricultural Producers, on Bill 29 and 35; Lynne Fernandez, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, on Bill 35; Barry Ross, Association of Manitoba Community Pastures, on Bill 35; Duncan M orrison, Manitoba Forage and Grassland Association, on Bill 35; Katharine Storey, private citizen, on Bill 35.

Does the committee agree to have these documents appear in Hansard transcript of this meeting? [Agreed] Before we proceed with presentations, we do have a number of other items and points of information to consider. First of all, if there's anyone else in attendance who would like to make a presentation this evening, please register with the staff at the entrance of the room. Also, for the information of all presenters, while written versions of presentations are not required, if you are going to accompany your presentation with written material, we ask that you provide 20 copies.

If you need help with photocopying, please speak with our staff. As well, in attendance with our –in accordance with our rules, a time limit of 10 minutes has been allotted for presentations, with another five minutes allowed for questions from committee members. If a presenter is not in attendance when their name is called, they will be dropped to the bottom of the list. If the presenter is not in attendance when their name is called a second time, they will be removed from the presenters' list.

Prior to proceeding with public presentations, I would like to advise members of the public regarding the process for speaking in committee. The proceedings of our meetings are recorded in order to provide a verbatim transcript. Each time somebody wishes to speak, whether it be an MLA or a presenter, I first have to say the p erson's name. This is the signal for the Hansard recorder to turn the mics on and off. Thank you for your patience. We will now proceed with public presentations, out -of-town guests first. Bill 29–The Wildlife Amendment Act (Safe Hunting and Shared Management) Mr.

Chairperson: I will now–on Bill 29, I will now call on Scott Phillips, Municipalities in the Ag Zone. Mr. Phillips, do you have any written materials for distribution to the committee?

October 31, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 201 Mr. Scott Phillips (Municipalities in the Ag Zone): No, Sir, I do not. Mr. Chairperson: Then you may proceed with your presentation. Mr. Phillips: Good evening, everyone. First off, I'd like to thank for being asked to come in tonight. Hope no one's missing out on the trick or treats, and I'm honoured to be allowed to speak. My name is Scott Phillips, councillor in the RM of Sifton. For those that are unaware of that, that is in the southwest part of the province. It is –and definitely an ag zone.

I am here to represent several dozen towns, RMs and groups , which cover tens of thousands of miles in the western Manitoba, which believe this ban should take place immediately. For the last few years, I've sent in hundreds, if not thousands, of pieces of testimonials, pictures, evidence and, sadly, obituaries as a result of night hunting-slash-spotlighting. I personally live near Crown land and have seen the spotlights late at night. I've heard shots late at night and like a fool have gone out to confront the culprits.

So anyone that thinks, who is this guy and what does he know, I live there, I see it, I live with it. It is extremely unsafe to human life, unethical to wildlife. It causes several insurance claims to livestock mistaken as wildlife as well as equipment. This is not sustainable to any way, shape or form, and anyone who took hunter safety would agree with this. I, along with thousands of taxpaying citizens, seek closure on this before something tragic happens again. And whether we like to admit it or acknowledge it, it is going to happen again.

So the – this is not an isolated issue or an isolated area, it's a province-wide one, and we need to work together on it. I, along with everyone else, is grateful for the parties of the day here to have found common ground on the dangers of spotlighting as we take the final steps in this closure. For those that have got my emails for the last two, three years, if this ends, you won't be getting the hundreds of emails and saying, where's my reply, et cetera. I've been extremely animated on this, as it's hit home, it's hit personal, guys, and it has to end. There's nothing safe about it, folks.

That's all I can say. Thank you again for letting us come in, and look forward to the rest of the evening. * (18:10) Mr. Chairperson: We will now take questions of the presenter. Hon. Rochelle Squires (Minister of Sustainable Development): Not really a question. Just want to thank Mr. Phillips for coming in this evening, and I want to thank you for your perseverance on this issue, as you have been very passionate, outspoken advocate for safety of all Manitobans and of livestock and property and this has been a concern that you've brought to our attention many times.

And I want you to know that we're listening to you and really appreciate you coming here tonight to present. [interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Phillips. You have to wait 'til I mention your name before you can speak. Mr. Phillips. Mr. Phillips: Thank you for the kind words. I know I've sent you and your predecessor several hundreds of emails, and I'm pretty sure I'm blocked by now. But it was well worth it. So we look forward to closure. Ms. Judy Klassen (Kewatinook): Thank you for your presentation. So I'm wondering, you stated you represent a lot of people in western Manitoba.

So my question is, what have you done to make daylight hunting safer for hunters? Have you opened up the lands that are rightfully ours to hunters? Mr. Phillips: Yes, actually, for those that don't know, I work quite closely with Sioux Valley Dakota Nation. I have several First Nation guys that work for me. I have set them up with a lot of landowners with bushland along the rivers and creeks, to allow them to hunt on there. I know that some people don't get a fair shake in life, but I've done lots in the last few years, personally, to make sure that the guys can take advantage of hunting and fishing and so forth.

Mr. Chairperson: Do we have any other questions of Mr. Phillips? Seeing as no more questions, we thank you for your presentation, Mr. Phillips, and we will move on to the next presenter. I will now call on Camero n Neurenberg, private citizen. Cameron Neurenberg. Do you have any written materials for distribution to the committee, Mr. Neurenberg?

202 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 31, 2018 Mr. Cameron Neurenberg (Private Citizen): No, I do not. Mr. Chairperson: Then you may proceed with your presentation, Mr. Neurenberg. Mr. Neurenberg: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Cameron Neurenberg, as the Chairman has indicated. I am an agricultural producer residing in the RM of Lac du Bonnet. We farm on both sides of the Winnipeg River. And I'm also a hunter, a lifelong hunter. Primarily a big game hunter.

I'm an executive committee member of the Manitoba Wildlife Federation a board member of the Lac du Bonnet wildlife federation and environmental and land use committee member of Keystone Agricultural Producers. I will address the issue of safety as it pertains to Bill 29, first off. East side of Lake Winnipeg is fairly unique. We don't have a high–as high a concentration of agricultural units that you would in other areas of the province. Primarily, the area north of the Winnipeg River is Canadian Shield. We farm bordering the Canadian Shield. We have close proximity to Whiteshell Provincial Park.

The Lac du Bonnet area is a high, high traffic recreational area for urban Winnipeggers and many of them are hunters and anglers. So we are exposed to hunting pressure from various sources. We are proponents, on our farm, are proponents of advocating for written permission. You a pproach us, we grant written permission, we know who's on our land and that's how we address the safety issue.

Given the fact that we're on the east side of Lake Winnipeg, I have been involved in an organization called the committee for moose management, which is an organization that encompasses eastside communities, indigenous communities along eastside of Lake Winnipeg. We have been working co-operatively for 20 years to develop wildlife management strategies within that geographic area. We have had sig nificant successes. We've made good friendships, and have found lots of common ground. So that's a big background there.

With regards to safety, it is difficult to comprehend as to how it came to pass that the authors of the Constitution of our great nation would enshrine an activity that places its citizens at risk. And yet this is where we find ourselves presently. We have rural areas where–in –within Manitoba where school buses carrying children, farm families tending livestock and managing crop product ion at unconventional hours are working in an environment that allows hunting at night when one cannot see anything beyond the range of the artificial light being utilized.

Bill 29 is courageous in addressing this serious safety issue on behalf of all Manitobans. The shared management component of this bill is one of –that is of particular –well, I guess the best way to say it, it's dear to my heart. As I mentioned earlier, I've been a member of the Committee for Cooperative Moose Management, moose matters committee on the east side of Lake Winnipeg, and these are forums that are in place to facilitate the shared management initiative that is being proposed in this bill.

As a member of the executive committee of the Manitoba Wildlife Federation, we have str uck a steering committee to take a leadership role in this historic endeavour. And MWF is committed to participate in developing a shared management strategy that benefits all Manitobans. Working with east -side indigenous community members, there is a gen eral recognition that the current approach to resource management is unsustainable and unworkable for all peoples, and it needs–we need to change it.

To –the resource management is not working for anyone, and diligence to turn this ship is required, as to r esources are dwindling, absent strong management strategies with grassroots input. In that spirit, MWF has reached out to First Nations elders as well as grassroots Metis Manitobans to come together and co- operatively create a truly shared management strategy. In closing, I encourage all MLAs to support Bill 29 and set the tone for comprehensive, inclusive resource management policies for all Manitobans. We must and can do this for future generations. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation, Mr.

Neurenberg. We will now move on to questions. Ms. Squires : Thank you very much, Mr. Neurenberg, for coming down here tonight and presenting to us your thoughts on Bill 29. And I just want to take the opportunity to thank you for your work on the conser vation of moose and other iconic species here in Manitoba. You've been a large part of many committees that are working towards ensuring that these species are here and available in the future for our future generations as well. So I want to thank you for your work in that regard.

October 31, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 203 Mr. Neurenberg: Thank you, Ma'am. Ms. Klassen: Thank you for your presentation. I was wondering if you could name some of the communities you work with along the east side. Mr. Neurenberg: Over the years, Hollow Water First Nation, Black River First Nation, Sagkeeng First Nation, and we have, through the Moose Matters committee, in the last three years, worked with Bloodvein First Nation. And Brokenhead First Nation often hosts and facilitates the meetings that we have. Mr. Chairperson: We thank you for your presentation, Mr. Neurenberg.

Seeing as no other questions, we will now move on to the next presentation. Thank you. We will now call on Pam Robins. Pam Robins? Pam Robins does not appear to be here. We will move her to the bottom of the list. We will now call on Bob Austman, hunters safety instructors association of Manitoba. Bob Austman? Bob Austman is not here. Mr. Austman's name will be moved to the bottom of the list. Our next presenter, Archie McPherson, reeve of Westman area. Mr. McPherson, do you have any written material for the committee? Mr. Archie McPherson (Reeve, Rural Municipality of Pipestone): No, I don't. Mr.

Chairperson: Then you may proceed with your presentation as soon as you are ready. Mr. McPherson: I'd like to thank the committee for the opportunity of appearing here tonight, even though it was on short notice at 1 o'clock this afternoon. I was heading back to the field when I got a call, so three-hour drive later, we made it. And I'm thankful to be here. I don't have anything prepared, so I'm going to kind of shoot from the hip. I am very grateful that all parties involved over the past several years have come together to get to the point we are at tonight here with bringing this legislation forward.

As some of you are probably aware, it was the RM of Pipestone that originally brought the resolution forward roughly four years ago, so it was gratifying to see that we're at this stage of the –giving this legislation hopefully passed through. * (18:20) I'm not sure if there's possible–amendments could be made to this. All the way through with this, we were concerned about allowing night hunting in the southern part of the province in designated, large parcels of Crown land. And I'll use the Spruce Woods for example. I think it's still creating a lot of possibility of danger to local people.

They talk about possibly issuing permits and whatnot. If you issue eight permits for a given night to allow somebody go into–hunt in Spruce Woods, how do the game wardens not know that there's not another 10 parties in there hunting without–properly permitted? And it can create some pretty dangerous situations. As a former RCMP officer back in the '70s and the '80s, we were actively involved in enforcing The Wildlife Act. Worked in conjunction with the game wardens a lot of times. I personally was involved in a lot of dangerous situations –high- speed chases, loaded firearms, alcohol involved.

It's not a pretty situation to be in. Talked to several game wardens. They're already concerned about issuing permits in the southern part of the province. They realize that there's going to be lots of problems and concerns for safety and whatnot. I just question why we'd jeopardize our good game wardens to put them in those kinds of situations. We've got a lot of designated area in the northern part of the province that –thousands of square miles where there's no one that could be possibly injured, possibly other than the hunters themselves.

So if some amendments could be made to that effect, I would be very grateful for. I encourage everyone to pass this bill. It's certainly in the safety of all people in the Province of Manitoba. And with that I –again, thank you for the opportunity to speak before you. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation, Mr. McPherson. Ms. Squires: Thank you so much for coming down here, and especially for driving three hours to be here. And I want you to know that your concerns with the bill and your comments are greatly appreciated and provides us something to think about.

204 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 31, 2018 So, much appreciated for your time tonight and for your commitment to safety in Manitoba. [interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Mr. McPherson, you have to wait to speak until I–Mr. McPherson. Mr. McPherson: Thank you, Madam Minister. Ms. Klassen: Thank you, as well, for making the three-hour trek and for bringing forward your concerns over the permit system. I know that in my east-side communities, there's a lot of permits that are handed out, and we still don't know who's in our traditional lands and territories in my riding.

The question I have for you is, you know, is there anything in particular that you have done to make daylight hunting safer for all our hunters in Manitoba? [interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Mr. McPherson. Mr. McPherson: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I've worked in the past with firearm safety courses. I've –I'm well known in the area. I've hunted all my life. Lots of people from Winnipeg, Brandon, come out our way deer hunting in the past.

It's getting less because the deer population isn't the same as it was back in the '70s and '80s, and it's probably consistent throughout the province with the primary deer hunting out our way–although there's moose there, now. I've assisted a lot of people in acquiring permission to land because I know everybody in the area and all the farmers. I farm myself. So people would say, well, who's land are we on, can we get permission? And I'd– I–hundreds of people over the last 40 years I've helped get permission to get on land and so on and so forth.

S o I was always kind of the go-to person when it come to hunting and getting permission granted, so on and so forth. Mr. Chairperson: Are there any other questions of Mr. McPherson? Mr. Doyle Piwniuk (Arthur-Virden): Thank you, Mr. McPherson. I'm glad tha t you came here today and presented, and I also want to congratulate you on being acclaimed as the reeve again for Pipestone. And thanks again for coming out and supporting this bill. Mr. McPherson: Thank you, Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairperson: Any further questions? If not, we thank you for your presentation, Mr. McPherson, and we will move on to our next presenter.

Thank you. We will now call on Michelle Assailly. Michelle? Michelle, if you could give me the proper pronunciation of your last name, please. Ms. Michelle Assailly ( Private Citizen): Certainly, it's Michelle Assailly. Mr. Chairperson: Assailly. Thank you. Do you have any written material for the committee? Ms. Assailly: No, I don't. Mr. Chairperson: Then you may proceed with your presentation. Thank you. Ms. Assailly: Hello. I am a relatively new hunter, even though I grew up on a farm in rural Manitoba. My husband and I both enjoy the meals prepared from meat that I have harvested.

He's not interested in hunting, and he worries sometimes when I'm out later in the day because I'm not the only one out there. And he obviously is a little nervous. There's many safety issues surrounding hunting at night. It goes against everything that our hunter education safety courses teaches new hunters. N ight hunting is also contributing to the decline in some of our wildlife populations and makes these populations less sustainable. The fact is, the safety zones for firing firearms at night is zero. You cannot see beyond your target. And this is a key pri nciple in hunter education programs.

It's also a key principle across Canada and North America's hunter education programs. This can be verified at International Hunter Education Association's website, which is iheacanada.ca. IHEA has recognized the impo rtance of heritage and cultural values in Canada, and the International Hunter Education Association Canada fosters a collaborative educational network that sets a foundation for a safe, respectful and responsible hunting community for today and tomorrow. Night hunting is unsafe for any Manitoban, regardless of hunting rights.

As a government and concerned citizens we have the possibility through implementing this bill to protect all citizens of Manitoba from personal danger from night hunting, and also to protect our rights to hunt safely. Night hunting's also unsafe for non- resident hunters, people that come up from the US, which

October 31, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 205 could affect local tourism, and it would cascade into affecting our economy in a detrimental manner. There are two very apt acronyms that I get directly from the RCMP, which is a national organization. The first acronym is ACTS, to remember four vital acts of firearm safety. The C in that acronym stands for control the muzzle direction at all times. You can't see past your targ et during night hunting. The second acronym is PROVE, p -r-o-v-e, to remember to prove that it's safe. The V stands for verify the feeding path.

This would be impossible during night hunting. There is such a thing as fair chase in ethical hunting, it's sporting, which is absent in night hunting. We must manage our harvesting of key species to ensure there are animals for us to hunt in the future. We see there's alarming declines in our moose population, for instance. Dr. Vince Crichton has indicated this in various media, including his podcast called Moose Management, which can be accessed at panoramicoutdoors.podbean.com and also on iTunes. See also his video The Man Who Would Be Moose; it's very interesting to watch.

What is going to be done to make sure I have an opportunity to ethically harvest a moose for my freezer in a free–in a few years from now? I've never harvested moose. This is an opportunity to make a difference, and this is why I'm here. Night hunting is not ethical hunting. Further, spotlight night hunting isn't moral; lazy, reckless and cowardly tactic, often employed by greedy, unskilled poachers who couldn't bag a deer on a fair playing field if their disgusting, cheater lives depended on it. Thank you for your time and attention. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation, Ms. Assailly. Ms.

Squires : I just want to thank you for coming down here tonight and espousing some of the facts and opinions about safety. Ms. Klassen: Thank you for your presentation. I – you used some very strong language and which, you know, I feel was not necessary, but I can–I know that your frustration is coming through in the language that you're using. I do believe that there is a way that we can work together to make sure that both the interests of a ll hunters are carried forward. You know, this bill blankets everything night hunting.

In my area up north, night hunting–that's one of the primary ways that my people harvest beaver. And so, you know, this bill does not take into consideration for those kinds of hunting, and so that's why, you know, I'm sitting here today trying to make sure that our voices of every Manitoban gets heard. * (18:30) And so I appreciate your comments and I was just wondering if there was any recommendations – I've tried to put recommendations–if you had any. Ms.

Assailly: I would recommend maybe –I do a lot of volunteering with hunter education and Manitoba Wildlife Federation and stuff like that, and I would suggest that there needs to be a lot more education for existing hunt ers. I mean, don't just teach the brand new ones. There might be something still to be learned later on, or possibly getting a lot more strict with action or fines or jail time against people who, you know, are really rampantly, horribly doing it, because there's some really good examples out there of nasty people night hunting for nothing more than profit. Thank you. Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St.

Johns ): Miigwech for coming in to present to us. I do want to just touch base on your last comment that you just made in respect of lots of nasty people night hunting. In your opinion, can you give me some examples of what you're talking about? [interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Assailly, Ms. Assailly: Sorry–there was a group of hunters that were arrested in southern Manitoba at night with lots of moose meat, a couple of trucks and a helicopter, and I believe they all got impounded because they were flying this meat across the border. Now, I don't hav e names for that, I'm sorry.

It was just something that was discussed at a get - together one time, but there's other incidents that I've heard of. That's the kind of nastiness that I'm talking about, whe re it's just sheer –sometimes it's not even meat; sometimes it's just for the horns, like for the antlers. You can't, you know, harvest a moose and just take the antlers. That's really wasteful, and with declining populations, I think that's disgraceful, really, but, yes, for nasty people I would say probably the ones that are harvesting it so vastly as to make it a commercial enterprise. Mr.

Chairperson: Do we have any more questions for Ms. Assailly?

206 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 31, 2018 If not, we thank you for your presentation and we will move on to the next presenter. I will now call on Joseph Maud, First Nations in Treaty 2 Territory. Joseph? D o you have any written material for the committee, Mr. Maud? Mr. Joseph Maud (First Nation s in Treaty 2 Territory): Yes, I do. Mr. Chairperson: Okay. We will have our staff distribute it. As soon as it's distributed we will–then you may proceed with your presentation. Oh, there's more to hand out? Mr. Maud: One more. Mr. Chairperson: You may start with your presentation, Mr. Maud. Mr.

Maud: Good evening. I don't know how to address you guys –members of the Manitoba Legislature? My name is Joseph Maud. I am a treaty member of Skownan First Nation, a Treaty 2 member. I am also–prior to being employed with the Treaty 2 office, I served faithfully f or 12 years as a council member for Skownan First Nation. And prior to that I was a Canadian Armed Forces sold ier. So, but anyways, I am speaking for Treaty 2.

I'm speaking not only for myself, but speaking for the First Nations in Treaty 2 T erritory when I tell you that this committee and the government of Manitoba would do the people of Manitoba a great favour if you would delay this passage of this bill, any further process regarding this bill. There is still time to sit tight and do the right thing. I 'm speaking for the entire Treaty 2 territory and nobody else. We can go from west of Brandon to the Berens River, from Pine Creek all the way to the Winnipeg River, to the US border.

There are 22 million acres in this territory, which encompasses most of southern Manitoba. We have a lot of talking about, to do it together. Why aren't we talking? Doing it right means engaging in serious sit -down discussions with First Nations. This has not taken place. We are reasonable people. We will find a reasonable s olution which does not jeopardize the people of Manitoba and which does not contravene our rights and interests. You have a law here in Manitoba which they say you will act in accordance with the United Nations declaration on right of indigenous peoples.

This bill, as it stands, is contrary with the rights set out in the declaration. As this bill stands, it is contrary to the Constitution of Canada. Why act in a way which will cause us to challenge this bill in the courts, to challenge it successfully, at the end of the day? Why set yourselves up for a bad–for bad relations with us, when we are seeking your friendship? Why do you refuse to sit down and talk? I ask you honourable legislators to do your duty to your people, to your province, and set this bill aside for the next six months while we work together to accommodate each other's needs.

Our children, your children, need to be able to live together in friendship. Do not leave them with bitter feelings when it would be easy for us to work together. That's my presentation. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Maud. We will now take questions. Mrs. Bernadette Smith (Point Douglas): Thank you for your presentation. I appreciate you coming down and speaking on behalf of Treaty 2 territor y. My question to you is, do you know of any territory in Treaty 2 that was consulted about this bill? Floor Comment: Pardon me? Mr. Chairperson: Mister– Mrs. Smith: Do you know– Mr.

Chairperson: Okay, Miss Smith –Mrs. Smith, sorry. Mrs. Smith: Do you know of any of the communities in Treaty 2 that were consulted on this bill by the minister? Mr. Maud: The Province of Manitoba, I guess, engaged Treaty 2. We had a series of this–earlier this year, in March–February and March. We went to the nine communities and talked about night hunting. Like I said, it was just a general discussion. I would not call that consultation. Nor was there any accommodation for any of the legislators here, or your staff, to come to Skownan or any of our Treaty 2 communities and talk in Ojibw e.

There's a lot of words that cannot be translated from English to Ojibwe or vice versa. So it was a general discussion on night hunting. That's all I will say that was. It was just a general meeting. No consultation, it was just a general discussion. Ms. Klassen: Thank you for coming out tonight. I really appreciate it. I hope the minister will thank you as well –again, and in friendship, because you have made the trouble of coming all the way out here.

October 31, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 207 My mom is from Lake Manitoba First Nation, so you know, I'm very concerned to this bill. And you're right, there is something that needs to be done. But it needs to be done in co- operation with our people. These are our lands ; at the end of the day, these are our lands and our territories. And we do acknowledge that there's something that needs to take place.

And it needs to take place with us at the tables. * (18:40) I've spoken to many chiefs across Treaty 2 territory, and they said the same thing that you're saying today, that it was just a 'deneral' discussion. They actually 'quode'–we actually have somebody who is being quoted as saying this is not to be taken as a consultation. And so I appreciate you voicing that today here too. My question is: What are some of the solutions that, hopefully, it'll perk up the ears of the PC team here to make sure that this bill does not pass today? Mr.

Maud: Okay, I want to point out, I guess, when you say solution, and I'll just–like, I guess in, kind of in a similar context about fishing, like, there was a – in Lake Dauphin, there's a conservation issue about our people being charged. And so what Treaty 2 did, is that we have experts, our own elders, than how –that know how to sustain and manage the wildlife, including fish. We, Treaty 2, approached one of our experts in– of Skownan First Nation about helping to restock Lake Dauphin. We had no money. We had no funds.

This spring, the Province of Manitoba put out a conservation measure, like, any fish caught over 25 centimetres to 30 c entimetres, our people would be charged. We said, don't charge our people; we have a solution. We'll help restock Lake Dauphin, which we did successfully. We restocked 500,000 fingerlings into Lake Dauphin. So that was–so there's solutions that Treaty 2's offering. I want to point out one other –15 years ago, the Province of Manitoba came to Skownan First Nation. They seen that how our people are fishermen, are land users, managed Lake Waterhen really good.

They have–our treaty fishermen, they've been doing it for centuries. They came up to Skownan, the Province of Manitoba: Skownan, would you be interested in eco-certifying Lake Waterhen? So the dialogue, chief and council, the fishermen, the Province of Manitoba, 15 years –this is started about 15 years ago. So what happened? Four years ago, Lake Waterhen was the first eco - certified in the western hemisphere, the first eco - certified lake in the western hemisphere. So that's because our people look after Lake Waterhen. Our people manage it. They don't ove rfish. They don't overkill. They clean up the lake.

It –the Province didn't have to tell us how to manage our resources; we did it–we did this on our own, and like I said, it's a shining example that our people know how to manage the resources, whether it b e wildlife or fish, and in this case, night hunting. Mr. Chairperson: We thank you for your presentation, but we're well over the five -minute question allotted –question period allotment. We thank you for your presentation, Mr. Maud, and we will now move on to our next presenter. Thank you. I will now call on Chief Cornell McLean, Lake Manitoba First Nation. Chief McLean, do you have any written material? Mr.

Cornell McLean (Lake Manitoba First Nation): No. Mr. Chairperson: Then you may proceed with your presentation when you are ready. Mr. McLean: Good evening. Thank you, Chairman, and also say hi to Minister Squires. I was supposed to do that same speech as Joe just did, but I'll just wing it. First, it's about to accommodate and consent, I guess, for my community and also for the communities of Treaty 2. I'm also a vice -chief of Treaty 2.

We've had several discussions, meetings, with Minister Squires, people from her office who work –who are from my community as well, came visiting, spoke abo ut the night lighting, the safe hunting issues. I have no problems with the safe hunting, night lighting. I'm not going to tell my people that they can't harvest for and feed themselves and they can't go night lighting. I think it's our right as F irst Nations people and as the F irst Peoples of this country that we're entitled to, you know, to feed our families from –whether it be from the lake or from the bush.

At the end of the day, like I say, we had people from Minister Squires ' office come to Lake Manitoba, speak about the night lighting, the safeties of it. It's just going to become unsafe if it's taken away. They're going to do it anyway, right? You know what, let's be truthful with ourselves here.

208 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 31, 2018 Like, myself being a hunter as well, I don't go night lighting, so, you know, I don't see the pros and cons of it. I'm a guy that –I don't shoot from the side of the road either, so–there's Crown land that's designated for us, so, you know, I practise that. And I only take what's needed for my community, for my members, for my family. So, you know, I think it should be done in a meaningful way. We need to be accommodated by the Province before we're able to provide our consent as First Nations people. Mr.

Chairperson: Thank you, mister –Chief McLean, for your presentation. Ms. Squires : Thank you very much, Chief, for coming down here tonight, and thank you for the dialogue that we've had in the past. And I really look forward to ongoing collaboration with you on future conversations about how we c an ensure the conservation of our iconic species and work together in a shared management of our resources. So thank you for being here tonight. Mr. McLean: Thank you. Ms. Fontaine: Miigwech, Chief McLean, for coming to present to the committee tonight.

So, just to be clear for everybody in the room, I know that when you describe the staff from the minister's department coming to your community, you talk about it in terms of visiting. So–and similarly, I think Mr. Joseph Maud spoke about it in the same way. And so, was there any attempt by the minister or her department to begin or execute thorough consultations with chief and council, with elders, with hunters, in your community? Mr. McLean: I'll say it was like a sheep in wolf's clothing, the way I'll put it.

The person was my band member that came to my community to address us on the hunting issues, came during a meeting that we were having with Treaty 2. And my members were there, and a lot of my young members and my older members spoke to my band member, I'll call him, and explained to him about the pros and cons of night lighting. And he assured us that this wasn't a consultation process, that he was going to take our information back to the minister, and we were going to have meaningful dialogue to get to where we needed to get in terms of what was safe and what was unsafe for night lighting. Mr. Chairperson: Ms.

Klassen. An Honourable Member: Follow-up? Mr. Chairperson: Ms. McLean –or–sorry. Ms. Fontaine. Ms. Fontaine: So, just to be clear then, you wouldn't consider that consultation–first question, would you consider that consultation? And was there any follow-up based on what you were just saying, that you were going to–beginning those discussions? Was there any follow-up from the minister's office? Mr. McLean: There was follow -up. No, it wasn't consultation, but there was follow -up. We –myself along with the grand chief of Treaty 2, along with the other chiefs, came and met Minister Squires in her office. Ms.

Klassen: Thank you for your presentation, Chief. Welcome here. I really appreciate your words because, you know, it officially puts it on the record what I have been trying to say in House, that there was no true consultation. So, you know, while we have the PC team here, can you tell the minister and her colleagues here what true consultation looks like? Because they are having a heck of a time trying to figure that out. Mr.

McLean: Well, I don't think it's just a phone call or–you know, I think it needs to be meaningful discussions, with the minister or deputy minister coming to my community to address my members, you know, to tell us what we want. Mr. Ted Marcelino (Tyndall Park): Regarding the suggestion that this bill coul d be held and make it a little–make more time for it to be discussed among those who will be mostly affected by it. Can you comment on that, please? * (18:50) Mr. McLean: Well, we were told that this bill was going to be in the spring. Here we are today. You know, who will be mostly affected?

Well, we just had a community hunt in our community. Feeds all of our elders. And then we take care of all of our big family. So it'll certainly affect our people – my people.

October 31, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 209 Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Klassen, we have about 15 seconds left, so if you could make a quick one. [interjection] Oh, sorry. Ms. Klassen. I guess I didn't– Ms. Klassen: I'd like you to speak to when there is a harvest, you know, the sharing that goes on in the community. If you could speak to that, explain to these members what that means. Mr. McLean: It goes by the size of the family. It's once a year. Like, in the fall . It's–it goes–it'll go half a deer to the elders and then a full deer to the families. Mr.

Chairperson: We thank you for your presentation, Chief McLean, but our –we're, again, well over our time allotted for questions. So I thank you very much and I will now move on to the next presenter. I will now call on Cindy McKay. Cindy McKay? Do you have any written material for the committee? Ms. Cindy McKay (Private Citizen): Yes, I do. Mr. Chairperson: Okay, if we could get that handed out. Ms. McKay, you may start your presentation. Ms. McKay: Hello, my name is Cindy McKay. I'm from Pine Creek. I'm a band member there, as well as a councillor.

Miigwech for accepting our–my request to make a submission on the above matter. In short, our submission today addresses concerns, comments by the honourable Minister of Sustainable Development (Ms. Squires) to members of the legislative process. Specifically, these comments are: First Nation hunters are routinely shooting bullets through the night into farmhouses, damaging property and causing lives to be lost –when, in truth, there's no evidence of this. How does one know who's shooting when it's night time? When we have other hunters that come into your areas? But that's not your area, it's our territory.

First Nation hunters are the main reason for species loss–when, in truth, there is zero evidence of this. In contrast, the evidence suggests that anim als are being starved due to inadequate wilderness habitat. Bill 29 creates a shared management process – when, in truth, the bill pays lip service to the idea of shared management and leaves all power in the hands of the government. And I share the same comments with the chief that there was no consultation in my community. They came there and they only listened to the one individual that was in line with the agenda, which is to ban night hunting.

So there was no consultation there. I need some water. We made sure at the time when they came that this was not consultation. There was no follow -up after that. We didn't know where the report–we didn't know what the statements –or, where the statements went. There was no follow up at all. Now, if you want to be meaningful, you need to provide us with meaningful consultation. Pine Creek First Nation was duly consulted– when, in truth, the engagement with Pine Creek was inadequate.

In addition, we know the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, Southern Chiefs' Orga nization and Anishinaabe Agowidiiwinan, Treaty 2, have expressed opposition to Bill 29 and the consultation process leading up to it. The government of Manitoba ought to respect these organizations, as they speak for us, the rights holders. Thus we hope this committee considers our submission and proceeds accordingly. Again, how does one know that was our people? We feed our people. That's it. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation. Ms.

Squires : Thank you very much, Councillor McKay, for coming down here this evening and sharing your thoughts with committee and for providing us with your comments here that we can review accordingly. So thank you. Ms. McKay: Miigwech. Ms. Fontaine: Aaniin. M iigwech for coming to present this evening and travelling down here. So I just want to be clear in respect of your submission. And the comments that are written here in the four bullet points, those are comments that the Minister for Sustainable Developm ent made about your community and to members of your community, to be clear?

210 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 31, 2018 Ms. McKay: As far as I'm aware, by talking to some band members, yes. Ms. Klassen: Yes, thank you for pointing out the more–for coming out here as well, but for pointing out the more plausible explanations for the possible decline in moose populations. You–I don't particularly believe this minister when she says that the populations are declining as she has gone on record as stating. You know, there's been a lot of good harvest this –in my community, so that points exactly to the opposite of what she's saying.

But, you know, it's quite frustrating when we hear that she's gone on record and saying these things in our communities and, you know, not truly listening to all the people that are talking. You know, they've done that time and time again in our committees, when they would be going with a person who is aligning with them and then just completely shutting down and ignoring, you know. I would like for you to say, as an indigenous woman, how that makes you feel. Ms. McKay: I was very disheartened when they left, and I felt really helpless knowing that our hunters were not even listened to.

They were –they came there with only one agenda –is to ban this night hunting, and that's the only people they listened to. And we specifically told them that it was not consultation. Mrs. Smith: Thank you for your presentation. We appreciate you co ming down and sharing some words from your community. You know, I've heard a few people speak about people who are, you know, doing this for sport. Can you speak a little bit about, you know, the meaning of being able to hunt and provide for your family in your communities and what this bill would do, to that effect? Ms.

McKay: Well, it would stop our hunters from feeding our families, simple as that. Ms. Squires: So, with all due respect, I do want to clarify and emphatically deny that these aren't m y words, either on the record or off the record. Ms. McKay: I don't think you were there in person, were you? Ms. Squires : So, if you're talking about a specific consultation that was held in your community, my officials were there, but I was not there i n person. And therefore that sort of clarifies that I would not have been able to make these comments on the record or off the record. Ms.

McKay: But your representatives were there, and like I said, they were not listening to our hunters at all. * (19:00) Ms. Squires : Then I would hope that we can have the record state that these are certainly not my words. I never said these on the record or off the record. Thank you for the clarification. Mr. Chairperson: Ms. McKay? Ms. Fontaine. Ms. Fontaine: So, I guess I won't comment on the minister's comments right now, and the attempt to really kind of dismiss the concerns that you're bringing here on behalf of the whole community.

I think the minister is more concerned about her reputation than actually the families of Pine Creek. I do want to just point out for the record that the minister did just state that she hasn't been to your community. And so, therefore, I would indicate to the committee for the record that there has been no consultation with Pine Creek, and the minister just confirmed that just now. Miigwech. Ms. McKay: You're absolutely correct. There was no consultation. Mr. Chairperson: We thank you for your presentation, Ms. McKay, but we are, again, well into–well over our five minutes.

So we will now move on to the next presenter. This concludes the out -of-town presenters on Bill 29. We will now move to the out -of-town presenters on Bill 35. Could the minister please take the seat. I will now call on Dean Harder, National Farmers Union, Manitoba. Mr. Dean Harder. Mr. Harder–is Mr. Harder present? Mr. Harder's name will be moved to the bottom of the list. The next out -of-town presenter we have is on Bill 228, The Animal Shelter and Rescue Awareness Day Act.

October 31, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 211 I will call upon th e member responsible for this bill, Bill 228. Okay. Katie Powell? Katie Powell's name will be dropped to the bottom of the list. We will now move back to Bill 29. I will now call on Brian Kotak, Manitoba Wildlife Federation. Brian, do you have any w ritten material for the committee? Mr. Brian Kotak (Manitoba Wildlife Federation): Yes, I do. Mr. Chairperson: Okay, we will get it distributed to the committee. And you may start your presentation when you are ready. Mr. Kotak: Thank you very much.

And thank you for the opportunity to speak about our support of Bill 29. The Manitoba Wildlife Federation represents more than 14,000 hunters, anglers and outdoor enthusiasts in the province. For 75 years, our organization has promoted the safe use of fire arms and safe and ethical hunting practices. Bill 29 will better protect public safety, protect property, and help conserve our vulnerable wildlife resources. Tonight I'd like to address some of the specifics of Bill 29.

First and foremost, this bill pro vides a much needed mechanism to deal with public safety issues surrounding the dangerous practice of night hunting. The sad statistics of hunters and even nonhunters being killed or injured by the use of firearms at night is tragic. How many near misses o r actual incidents are not even reported in those statistics? Sadly we're speaking about people, not statistics. As hunters it's our collective responsibility to ensure not only our own safety, but also that of others while we undertake our hunting tradi tions.

Unfortunately, at night it's not possible to know who else is out there in the forest and in the field. Our organization is responsible for administering the Manitoba Hunter Education Program. With more than 180 instructors, each year we teach a n ew generation of several thousand hunters and prospective hunters how to be safe and ethical hunters. One of the most important aspects of this training for all hunters is to correctly identify their target. That is, be sure you know what you're shooting at.

This may sound pretty obvious, but when you're looking through a rifle scope at night is what you're looking at a whitetail deer or a mule deer? The difference is important, as one species can be legally hunted. The other is a threatened species in Manitoba and hunting is prohibited. Sometimes the obvious is just not so obvious, especially in the dark at night. Equally important is to know what is behind your target. Even in an area that you're familiar with and may have hunted many times before, i t's impossible to know what your target is at night.

It's far too easy to get turned around at night, impossible to know if somebody else is out there, if farm machinery has been moved around or if livestock are now in a particular pasture or forest. Knowing your target and what's behind it is vitally important. Today's firearms are powerful. When not handled safely, they are extremely dangerous. For example, according to the ballistic information used in the Canadian Firearms Safety Course, the dangerous range of even a small calibre cartridge such as a .22 long rifle is more than 1.6 kilometres.

The dangerous range for larger calibre rifles used for big game species such as deer, elk or moose is even greater: over three kilometres for a .243 calibre, over five kilometres for a 30 -odd .6 calibre, and over five and a half kilometres for a .7 millimetre magnum. These are calibres commonly used for big game species in Manitoba, and this is why our hunter - education instructors focus so heavily on the sa fe handling and use of firearms, and why we teach that hunting at night is so dangerous and unacceptable.

In addition to the public safety aspect, damage to property, whether it's houses, vehicles, barns, agricultural equipment or livestock, continues to occur as a result of night hunting. Rural property owners and their assets are particularly at risk and Bill 29 is needed to protect property. The populations of our wildlife species are declining throughout the province, especially moose and elk. Some populations are so low now that any level of hunting threatens their sustainability and existence. Night hunting is contributing to that

212 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 31, 2018 decline as well as preventing these populations from recovering. Enacting legislation that limits night hunting will help those populations. Defining where it is safe to hunt at night –our organization is concerned that night hunting will still be allowed in the province even with these proposed restrictions. However, we do acknowledge that this bill attempts to balance t he rights of Aboriginal peoples to hunt for sustenance with the protection of public safety, property, and our wildlife.

In order to provide as much protection as possible under this legislation, The Manitoba Wildlife Federation insists that careful cons ideration be given when defining where it is safe to hunt at night, particularly in the southern zone. We are willing to take a

part in the process to identify safe night -hunting areas and so are the knowledgeable hunter -education instructors that we entrust to teach new hunters about safe and ethical hunting practices. We also agree with the complete prohibition of night hunting by all persons on private land. Our organization also supports the requirement that any Aboriginal person who wishes to hunt at night in a designated night -hunting area in the southern zone must apply for and hold a valid time - and geographically bound permit.

We're pleased to see the acknowledgment of a need to facilitate dialogue between private land owners, Aboriginal hunters, governments and other interested organizations to create mechanisms for granting written permission for safe hunting by Aboriginal peoples on private land during the daylight hours. This is an important initiative , given the continual reduction in the amount of Crown land available for hunting and trapping by Aboriginal hunters in southern Manitoba over the last century or more. Many of our members are rural and private landowners and were very interested in being a part of that dialogue.

The Manitoba Wildlife Federation is very pleased to see the concept of shared management in Bill 29. This form of wildlife management is long overdue in Manitoba and is an important mechanism for interested parties to work collab oratively to ensure the sustainability of our wildlife resource. Several informal models of this management style already exist in Manitoba, such as the committee for co -operative moose management and the East Side Lake Winnipeg Moose Matters Committee. Both committees forge partnerships and promote open dialogue between indigenous and licenced hunters.

Both committees have also developed recommendations to government on rebuilding our moose populations in eastern Manitoba. * (19:10) These are well -thought-out recommendations developed collaboratively and agreed upon by consensus. Shared management committees need to be developed now. Whether these are new committees or utilizing existing members –or, members of existing ones, we desperately need the model to be implemented now, and the priority should be for regions of the province where wildlife populations are at risk or where these ad hoc committees have already been working for years.

Finally, I'd like to touch briefly on the topic of enforcement. All legislation needs to be enforced. In the context of Bill 29, adequate enforcement means focusing on priority areas. This means focusing on the geographic areas where our wildlife resources are declining or being prevented from recovering due to night hunting. However, focusing on key geographic areas will not be effective if the human resources are not in place. We've seen a large decline in the number of conservation officers in the province over the last decade.

Currently, there are too few conservat ion officers that are stretched too thinly across too large a geographic area. Equally important is having the courts and judges impose stiff penalties to those convicted. We have witnessed judges imposing minimal or no penalties. Last week, in –a provinc ial court judge sentenced two hunters convicted of spotlighting off a provincial road and in an area closed to hunting. The judge's sentence include d returning the confiscated vehicle, imposing no fine and told the hunters to go out and shoot five deer or a moose and provide the meat to their community.

Is this a failure of the Crown attorney? The judge? Both? What message is this sending to hunters who break the law? What message does this send to our conservation officers who risk their very own safety as part of protecting our wildlife? The reality of any new legislation is it–that it requires proper and effective enforcement and

October 31, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 213 significant penalties to act as a deterrent. For Bill 29, this is critical. Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you tonight about Bill 29. This is an important piece of legislation, not just for our members, but for all Manitobans and for our wildlife resources. The Manitoba Wildlife Federation looks forward to taking an active role in its –in the implementation of Bill 29. Thank you for your attention and for the opportunity. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Kotak. Ms.

Squires: Thank you for coming down here this evening, Brian, and sharing your thoughts and presenting on behalf of the Manitoba W ildlife Federation. I know we have had a long process thus far in working together on the longevity and the conservation of our natural species and our habitat here in Manitoba. And I look forward to this continued relationship as we move forward with th e many challenges we face in the Province of Manitoba. Thank you. Mr. Kotak: Thank you for those comments, Minister Squires.

And I personally look forward to being able to continue to work with everybody –with our First Nation partners that we currently work with, with licenced hunters and with government to– especially on the shared management, to get that in place. Mrs. Smith: So thank you for your presentation. It's nice to hear that the minister is consulting with someone. You heard various speakers come up and, you know, speak about their lack of consultation. Do you believe that First Nations should be consulted on this bill? Mr. Kotak: Absolutely. That is a legislative requirement, a requirement of the constitution of Canada.

Yes, and we –we've be en reaching out to governments of all stripes for many years on this issue. So it's imperative that everybody is around the table to make all this happen. As far as what can –constitutes consultation, that is not a question that I can answer. Mr. Chairperson: Mrs. Smith, on a follow-up. Mrs. Smith: You just answered it. So–I was going to ask you if you thought that meaningful consultation had happened between the Province and First Nation communities. Ms. Fontaine: I'm–miigwech for your presentation.

So I am–I note that in your presentation you kind of set up a dichotomy between, you know, those that are in favour of banning night hunting, and indigenous peoples because you constantly talked about Aboriginal people getting licences and you're in favour of Aboriginal people getting–applying for licences to effectively hunt in our territories. I'm curious why the dichotomy. Is there only –is it only indigenous people that night hunt according to your view?

Is there any other individuals that night hunt tha t–your presentation set up just this dichotomy between yourself and the folks that you represent and all indigenous people. Are we the only ones that are night hunting? Mr. Kotak: No, absolutely not. There are non-indigenous hunters, poachers, out there that are out night hunting as well. And I hope that through this–not just this legislation, but through stronger enforcement, stronger penalties, that we will see, you know, whoever are committing these crimes to be brought to justice on behalf of our wildlife. Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Fontaine, on a follow-up. Ms.

Fontaine: So, they're not crimes yet. At any rate, I did –now I forgot my –so why didn't you, in your presentation, talk about or include those individuals that, as you said, do it for sport or for fun or whatever? Why were you solely focused just on indigenous people? Mr. Kotak: Because I believe the legislation is place–in place already for night hunting for non-indigenous people. Enforcement is the issue there in my mind. Ms. Klassen: I concur with your statements that there needs to be training or more conservation officers, but I need–I know they need to be fully trained.

You know, there's so many disgusting stories of what COs have done, you know, held a chief to gunpoint, literally gone into his home and raided his freezer and took everything out of that freezer. And I just want you to speak to the issue once again so that the minister is clear that–what your stance is in regards to conservation officers.

214 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 31, 2018 Mr. Kotak: Well, certainly , conservation officers should be held to a high standard of conduct, and part of that conduct is respect. I'm not familiar of any cases with–of conservation officers. I won't say that it doesn't happen, but I can't say that it does happen. But our organization advocates for ethical hunting. Our–and the same would be –go–would go for how we enforce the laws, is that it–it's got to be done respectfully. Mr. Chairperson: We thank you for your presentation, Mr. Kotak. And we will move on to the next presenter.

It has been brought to my attention that Mr. Dean Harder is an out -of-town presenter but was in the hallway with his child when we called his name. What is the will of the committee? Should we allow Mr. Harder to make his presentation on Bill 35? [Agreed] Bill 35–The Crown Lands Amendment Act (Improved Management of Community Pastures and Agricultural Crown Lands) Mr. Chairperson: Do you have written material for the committee? Mr. Dean Harder (National Farmers Union, Manitoba): I do. Mr. Chairperson: We will get it distributed, and– Floor Comment: Sorry about that. We were out trick-or-treating. Mr.

Chairperson: Mr. Harder, I have to ask you the question; that noose around your neck, is that a prop or this your costume from Halloweening? Mr. Harder: Oh, it's from Halloween. It's Halloween. Should I–okay, I'll wait. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Harder, you may start your presentation. Mr. Harder: So, thank you for considering our comments here on the proposed Crown Lands Amendment Act, Bill 35. I'm here representing the National Farmers Union in Manitoba and farmers who are unable to speak for themselves due to timing of this meeting and distance to the Manitoba Legislature. We have some very real concerns.

The Manitoba government has frequently proclaimed its support for farmers, especially young farmers, and so it is especially baffling that with little notice, Halloween night at 6 p.m., they've chosen to speak on this, and any government mill –bill for that matter. And this lack of respec t of turning a fun night – you want to sit down? Nope. Sorry about this. * (19:20) Turning a fun night into something truly horrible for farmers cannot be more ironic. Community-based ranchers will from this point forward, be asking, why has the Ag Minister played a trick on us? Is this bill for real?

Do you not think real, substantial consultation is appropriate? The National Farmers Union and its members haven't been brought in to even one consultation on this issue. Perhaps the government itself is scared because it knows the real consequences to farmers. The Crown Lands Amendment Act, Bill 35, contains clauses which are a direct harm to all cattle farmers, ranchers and will especially harm Manitoba's young cattle farmers and their families. Clause 2.2(2)(

b) and (

c) and 2.2(3) of Bill 35– [interjection] Do you want to sit down? Floor Comment: Yes. Mr. Harder: Yes, do you want to sit? Okay, you stand right there. Thank you. Yes, all right. That's Mikaela [phonetic]. So, these allow the establishment o f lease fees and pasture rents by auction and are completely unacceptable. Neglecting to include a point system, and which we've had, which considers a farmer's proximity to a lease, neglecting to give points for young farmers, neglecting to even consider if a bidder is a resident farmer at all, are unacceptable. An auction is a poor and unfair way to establish a price.

There are better ways to establish a fair market price for pasture rents and Crown land leases. A survey of the private rents being paid for pastures would be one logical way to establish a fair market price. Bill 35 bases a lease or rental price solely on a bid where the only criterion that matters is the highest price and which throws young ranchers into competition with the highest absente e out -of- province corporate bidder. This is bad agriculture policy for any province. One of our cattle operators –operating members states: This government often proclaims a desire to reduce red tape.

It is notable that the new Crown land lease system does not reduce any red tape for farmers. It might reduce red tape for government itself, and perhaps this is the intent, but that red tape

October 31, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 215 would only be reduced if the new prices established by bid were to be applied across all leases regardless of the accessibility or the grazing quality of the land. Doing so might cut corners in the process, but the result is unfairly high rents for cattle ranchers for the poorer quality leases. Again, this is bad agriculture policy. I just talked to another farmer family o n the phone yesterday. The son is 28 and his parents are in their 50s.

They're having to move because community pasture area has been taken up by Saskatchewan cattle in the community pasture in their area, and their land base isn't big enough. So when asking to purchase land, they've come up with some real challenges right now that we don't see addressed by the bill currently. Now, here's their question: One of our concerns is that the price that ranchers are asking for their ranches when they only have a small parcel of deeded land and a lot of Crown, they are putting way too much value in the Crown land, and it is something that you will never own.

Plus a bank will not lend money on the Crown land. Also, how secure is that Crown land? It's surrounding tha t farm area. Will it be yours after you spend all this money buying a ranch, only to lose it to another rancher that bids more for the Crown? You see, even private land prices that are not Crown land are already speculatively going up on their value due to these changes that are being made. And private land tied to public land leases with no transfer guarantees or even a high likeliness of transfer are being put into private parcels.

In this instance, something was assessed at $200,000 was – that was assesse d at $200,000 was priced at $900,000, as if cattle ranching wasn't enough of a gamble. We are in a large generation transition, and it is ludicrous that start- up and young Manitoba farmers are being pushed out of the way by this bill. And we've heard stuf f about –you're probably going to hear stuff about, oh, this creates more transparency. But you have a board in that–in this position. You have a board that is elected, and they have judged stuff on a point system.

And is it more transparent if you have a n auction and it goes to business No. 543246? Is that more transparent? I wouldn't say so. You don't even necessarily know who that owner of the land is now, and, if you do, what can you do about it? Nothing, it seems like. I would hope not. I hope changes , at the very least, could be made. If the government wanted to shift production out of the hands of ranch families and into the hands of out-of-province corporations, and especially direct harm to young ranch families, then Bill 35 would achieve this.

If government still owns the land, then why are they unwilling to be good stewards with it? I–we don't understand. The National Farmers Union believes all of us should be wanting more farmers and not less. Do you honestly think that large -operator, employee -based operations are an efficient way to raise cattle? If so, you're wrong. Ranch families have absolutely proven to be the most efficient cow -calf production system due to their hands -on approach, attention to detail and their ability to bring up dedicat ed young farmers who contribute to their communities.

Employee - based, large operations simply do not have the same commitment to success, which is critical to an industry which deals in mother cows and the birth of their calves. Bill 35 will not cut red tape for farmers. Instead, these amendments will transfer access to grazing land away from young cattle farmers and into the hands of, dare say it, the elite.

The government, through passing this bill, has dedicated to throw those efficient young cattle ranchers to the wolves in an auction for Crown land leases in which no family could outcompete in the end deep pockets, of pension plans or Cargill or your friendly multi - provincial ranch company. Bill 35, as it stands, is clearly and unfortunately a government cash grab on the backs of young cattle ranchers. Moving to simplified, highest bidder only scenarios contributes to elimination of the next generation of efficient ranching families. So this Halloween, rip up this nightmare.

Return to the point syste m for assigning Crown land leases and fight for more farmers, not less. Thank you for considering our submission. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Harder. Hon. Ralph Eichler (Minister of Agriculture): Thank you for your presentation. I understand that you're trying to get your child out to Halloween, and we appreciate you taking time to come in tonight. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Harder, do you have any comment on that?

216 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 31, 2018 Mr. Harder: Oh, well, thank you for your understanding. Mr. Chairperson: Do we have any other questions of mister–Ms. Klassen? Ms. Judy Klassen (Kewatinook): I just want to say thank you. You have an adorable little one there, and thank for your patience. And, hopefully, she still gets a bit more treats tonight. Mr. Harder: She had some candy while waiting, so she's had her sugar fill. Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Smith–Mrs. Smith, you had a question? Mrs.

Bernadette Smith (Point Douglas): Yes, I just want to thank you for coming out tonight and f or, you know, pointing out that obviously we need to keep, you know, our farmers and our cattle ranchers here in Manitoba, and not bringing in people from outside Manitoba and, you know, putting money before people, which this government seems to continually do. We need to invest in the families that are here in Manitoba. And, you know, just again, thanks for coming in and taking time out of your young daughter's experience of knocking on doors and collecting candy. So miigwech. Mr.

Harder: Well, the nex t generation is really important, and, you know, for too long we've said, you know, like, in one sense, we want people to believe they can have a future while the people, the farmers, they're passionate farmers. They want to farm. And that's what I'm passionate about. That's why I'm doing this, to be honest with you, because I think we have to give them a standing chance. And, you know, this is the government's land; they can do things differently, and they have the ability to do things differently than t he private sector.

And so, you know, why are we removing the opportunity to have those that are close and part of their communities and taking that away from them? So this is why we're really concerned. And, you know, I've heard there's going to be potentially more community–yes, there could be more community pastures because of this. But there's no guarantee that we're seeing in this bill of that scenario. There's no guarantees to young farmers wanting to buy new land or making that huge risk. So I think we need to give them that leg up that they really do deserve. Mr. Ted Marcelino (Tyndall Park): My question to you, Mr.

Harder, is: What is the solution to the dilemma that we might face if the Crown lands are set up for auction and it becomes unaffordable on the part of a young farmer? Mr. Harder: Well, the scenario that has occurred is instead of buying land themselves, then they have to become employees of larger companies if they want to stay ranching, which, you know, has its own risks. You know, they cannot be their own entrepreneurs anymore, and that's a concern. * (19:30) And bringing up the auction scenario, are we looking at scenarios where there can be one auction for a huge amount of land?

Is that the scenario that you're actually considering? So it's not even on individual parcels? Because that's, you know, that's an added danger here that's going to occur that I really encourage this committee and others to reconsider–and the Ag Minister. So this is why we're concerned. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Marcelino, on a follow-up. Mr. Marcelino: Yes, and one of the most amiable ministers in the Cabinet today is the Minister for Agriculture that we have here present today. What will you tell him regarding your fears about this bill? Mr.

Harder: I mean, I've expressed it to the most point, and perhaps there's stuff in the back end being looked at , but, you know, by not giving the opportunity in the system, as part of this option, to those closest to the land already, you can have a scenario where you might have your farm, but you need–you'd like that land around it to be able to –you know, it makes sense. Locality makes sense as part of the reason why they should have, or be able to use, with stewardship, this parcel. There's a reason, and I really encourage going back and including that as part of where this land goes to, where it gets used.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Harder, but our time for questions has expired. I will now call on the next presenter.

October 31, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 217 Bill 29–The Wildlife Amendment Act (Safe Hunting and Shared Management) (Continued) Mr. Chairperson: We will be mov ing back to Bill 29. Our next presenter for Bill 29 is Jimmy Thunder, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs. Mr. Thunder, we have your written presentation here, a number of–so we will be distributing it to the members of the committee. You may proceed with your presentation, Mr. Thunder. Mr. Jimmy Thunder (Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs): Thank you for providing the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs the opportunity to make this statement regarding Bill 29.

The Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs acknowledges that we are gather ed on Treaty 1 territory, the ancestral and sovereign territories of the Anishinabe Nation. The Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs Chiefs- in- Assembly would like to clearly state that we strongly oppose Bill 29, which is clearly an unjustified infringement of Aboriginal and treaty rights that are protected by

section 35 of Canada's constitution. This bill will also dismiss the requirements, including that of free, prior and informed consent, as found in the Unit ed Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. And it will ignore the calls to action of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada, including No. 43 and other related ones that call on federal and provincial governments to use the unit ed declarations on the rights of indigenous peoples as a framework for reconciliation, and even Manitoba's own Path to Reconciliation Act.

Our position was shared with Premier Pallister in a letter from grand chief –former Grand Chief Derek Nepinak dated June 27, 2017. It should be noted, that correction: this was from the former Grand Chief Derek Nepinak. This letter is attached in your handout. Our position was also –included the AMC Chiefs-in-Assembly Resolution APR -17.11. This is also included in your handout. This resolution states, among other things that Anishinabe law be applied to the discussion on night hunting.

The elders support First Nations who have developed and codified their laws that sets out the protocols on hunting, including night hunting. The treaty right to hunt not be altered, diminished or abrogated in any way. That the recognition of food sovereignty and traditional diet of First Nations is taken as a priority. That the First Nations unfettered right of access to First Nation ancestral lands and resources are recognized by the government of Manitoba for the purposes of hunting, fishing, trapping and gathering, and the commercial right to make a living off of those resources.

The Chiefs-in-Assembly support community and regional e ngagement, with the financial support of the Province of Manitoba, to develop the critical discussion needed to ensure successful relationships are built in the context of treaty and Aboriginal rights to hunting.

The Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs remains v ery concerned that affected Manitoba First Nations have not been meaningfully engaged, despite the fact that the Province of Manitoba has stated it, quote, engaged more than 20 First Nations communities in co-ordination with the following organizations: Southeast Resource Development Council, Swampy Tree Tribal Council and Anishinaabe Agowidiiwinan. End quote.

Manitoba never provided the AMC with their engagement reports on what First Nations actually said, and we would encourage the committee to properly inform itself on what First Nations actually said during this engagement. In closing, the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs cannot support Bill 29 as is presently drafted as it will impact the AMC member First Nations' treaty and Aboriginal rights. We recommend that Manitoba properly obtain free, prior and informed consent as identified in the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

Absent that, if the bill does become law, the AMC chief's office will explore all its political and legal options, inform the AMC Chiefs -in-Assembly and seek direction from the chiefs on how to proceed, including, but not limited to, pursuing a remedy in court. Thank you for your time. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Thunder. Hon. Rochelle Squires (Minister of Sustainable Development): Thank you for coming down here

218 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 31, 2018 this evening, Mr. Thunder, and for presenting to us and providing us with the package that you just have, and I look forward to continued dialogue with you. Mr. Thunder: Thank you. Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns ): Miigwech for your presentation. I missed a little bit of it; I apologize. I really had to go to the washroom and I apologize.

But, similar to many of the other indigenous leadership that have presented tonight, there's been a theme tonight, and the theme is that while the minister espouses that she has consulted and worked in partnership with indigenous peoples and our leadership, really there's been an absence of that.

And so I see–I–first off, I just want to get on the record, whether or not you believe that the AMC has been adequately consulted with, and then, secondly, were the engagement reports requested by the minister's office –or by AMC from the minister's office and there just wasn't any respon se, or was there a promise to get the engagement reports and just nothing has come from that minister's office? Mr. Thunder: For that question I would like to request to confer with my fellow associate from AMC. Mr. Chairperson: Can we agree to pause the clock? Is that all right with the committee? Agreed? [Agreed] Mr.

Thunder: So, it is our belief that we did ask for them, but it is our expectation that they would have been provided for us if meaningful c onsultation was the intention. Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Fontaine –oh, sorry – Ms. Klassen. Sorry. Ms. Judy Klassen (Kewatinook): Thank you for coming out and for your presentation. It was very well drafted.

And I would like for you, if you can restate, again, the practices that we do have so that my colleagues across the way know that we actually do have methodologies and systems within our own communities and that's why we keep saying we weren't consulted, is because we were never given that opportunity to talk. So, if you could expand on that, I'd appreciate it. * (19:40) Mr.

Thunder: Yes, it is–the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs is actually surprised that this is still an issue, that, you know, those of us who have been hunting for thousands and thousands of years don't have an adequate methodology to ensure that we're hunting in a safe manner. You know, this–again, going back to, you know, the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, you know, just the idea that we do have a framework. We are willing to be consulted. We're being–we're willing to be addressed and to co- develop these rules of safety. We do want people to be safe.

We don't–we do want people to be able to hunt in a way that is –that they're able to provide for their families and a way that nobody gets hurt. And the idea that we are not part of the process of ensuring that this safety happens is , 'quitely'–quite frankly , surprising to not only the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, but all of the First Nations communities that we represent. And, quite frankly, we real ly feel that it's about time that we are consulted –that we're consulted in legislation that relates to our fundamental treaty rights. Mr. Rick Wowchuk (Swan River): Thank you for your presentation.

Could you maybe tell me what the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs have in place for you to deliver the hunter education program? Because we've heard a lot tonight here about safety and you have agreed, you know, that your–safety is up most in your mind. So do you have instructors within the First Nation communiti es that deliver the programs for your young hunters? Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Thunder, do you have a response to that? Mr. Thunder: I would refer –I would like to refer back to our –[interjection]–I would like to refer to – [interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Order. Order. Mr.

Thunder has the floor, if he has a response. Mr. Thunder: I would like to refer to our handouts. We have–we speak to that in our 10 points. The –I've only read four of the resolutions –the four points of the resolution that we have handed out. I would refer to that document. And, yes, I would agree that it is –it's a bit of a ridiculous question. We've been doing this for

October 31, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 219 thousands of years. We have elders that retain this traditional knowledge. And, if there's anything further required, we can submit it to you in writing. Mr. Chairperson: We thank you for your presentation, Mr. Thunder. Time for questions has expired. We will be moving on to the next presenter. Thank you, Mr. Thunder. We will now call on Paul Conchatre. Paul? For the Manitoba Lodges and Outfitters Association? Is Paul present? Mr. Conchatre does not appear to be present. His name will be moved to the bottom of the list.

We will now move on to Rick Ryan, private citizen. Is Rick Ryan present? Rick Ryan? It appears that Mr. Ryan is not present. He will be moved to the bottom of the list. We will now call on Jeremy McKay, private citizen. Jeremy McKay? Mr. McKay, do you have written material for the committee? Floor Comment: I do. It's actually the Pine Creek First Nation– Mr. Chairperson: Mr. McKay, you have to–before– I hav e to recognize you before you speak. Mr. McKay. Mr. Jeremy McKay (Private Citizen): Yes? Mr. Chairperson: Go ahead and say what you were going to say. Mr. McKay: I do have written materials.

They're the same material that Councillor McKay had previously distributed. Mr. Chairperson: Okay, so then we do have them. So then you may proceed with your presentation, Mr. McKay. Mr. McKay: Okay. Boozhoo. [Ojibwe spoken.] My name is Jeremy McKay, and I'm a band member of Pine Creek First Nation. I'm just go ing to go off script here for a short while and clarify a matter that was dealt with before. So Councillor McKay had mentioned some comments by the honourable minister.

I think she situated them at a different place at a different time, but those are, in f act, the comments of the minister and they can be found in the Hansard of October 3rd, 2018. Part of my role as a young person from Pine Creek is to research into these matters and to inform our leadership. So that's what I've done in this situation. Spe cifically, they're found at page 3366 and 3367. Moving on to my comments that I had prepared this evening.

So my comments will briefly provide some additional contexts to the letter of pine 'cleek' – Pine Creek First Nation that, as I mentioned, Councillor McKay had previously distributed. I will begin with the issue of safety and sustainability. One of the challenges –one of the most challenging things about the engagement on this bill over the last couple of years that I've been involved with has been the stereotypes projected at indigenous peoples. I think we got a little bit of a sample of that this afternoon. And there's been a real failure to communicate between parties on each side of the issue.

I think a small microcosm of that is this room itself, where we have the Anishinaabeg people on one side and the moniyaw people on the other side. That's typically been the nature of this process for a couple of years now. So that end, one of the first requests that I made to the provincial representatives that we were talking to is to set the stereotypes aside and engage in a process to gather facts and evidence so that we can be–or, so that we can move forward in an informed way and have an informed discussion. For example, we wanted to know how many people are being hurt by night hunting.

When we talked to some of our relatives in our communities, very few recall any injuries that have occurred, and they've been practising this method of hunting for as long as they can remember and back a few generations for sure. And is it really indigenous people who are posing such a huge and imminent purported safety risk? I think we heard before that there are others that may be engaged in hunting in this province that could be part of the problem. In addition to that, is night hunting really harming the moose population? When I discuss with my elders, they talk about the moose population, and

220 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 31, 2018 they, too, are concerned with the declining numbers. But their reason for that is loss of habitat, and I thi nk that, in addition to indigenous peoples, our four - legged resident –relatives have been experiencing loss of habitat for, I guess, 150-some years now. And, when I would raise these concerns to the provincial representatives that I would talk to, they would quickly dismiss these concerns and change the topic.

They would start talking about treaty obligations, and I think there would be an attempt to shame us into saying that we are not fulfilling our inherent responsibilities as indigenous peoples. So t hat was the response I would get when I would bring up valid and legitimate concerns regarding the accusations of safety and sustainability. Regarding shared management, we were actually fairly excited when this process begun. We were excited because we finally have an opportunity to deal with shared management of natural resources, and that is something that, I think, excited me and many members of my community.

We wanted to learn more about what the possibilities were, so we talked to our relatives down south, the Chippewas, who have been engaged in a shared-management regime for quite a while now on night hunting, and we learned a little bit about their process. * (19:50) So what they told us is that they have trained guides in their communities tha t accompany night hunters. They go out the day previous and identify a shooting path. They train their hunters, which includes a marksmanship component, and they practise safe night hunting in an area that's way more populated than Manitoba.

So we were–like I said at the beginning, we were really excited about this opportunity to have a shared management regime that would reflect something like the model down in Wisconsin, but upon reading the bill, we quickly realized that indigenous peoples would simply be participating on a recommendation level. We would not at all be empowered to make any decisions in a meaningful way. So, subject to any questions or comments, those are my submissions for this evening. Miigwech. Mr. Chairperson: We thank you for your presentation, Mr. McKay. Ms. Squires : Thank you, Mr.

McKay, for coming down here tonight and presenting to the committee on Bill 29, and I appreciate the previous dialogue that we've had on this, and I look forward to hearing from you as we move forward. Mr. McKay: Miigwech. Ms. Fontaine: Miigwech for your presentation. It is always particularly a beautiful thing to see when our youth get engaged and represent our communities in such an articulate and beautiful way that you did tonight, and so I just want to honour you for that. And your comm unity should be extremely proud, your chief and council.

I do want to go back to some of the comments that you made earlier on just clarifying the previous presentation and the comments that were made by the minister. And I know that you said that they ar e in Hansard, and we are trying to get one of our staff to go pull up those Hansard right now. But can you maybe just expand a little bit on that? Like, where were those comments made by the Minister for Sustainable Development about indigenous people here in Manitoba? Mr. McKay: So, those –our record of those comments were made on –well, we took those from the official Hansard report from October 3rd, 2018.

I have a copy of the Hansard right in front of me. They begin on–like I said earlier –page–I don't know. You guys are smart enough to find them. But those are –I think those are fairly moderate comments. There's been some more aggressive comments by this government in different venues, so that's –that shouldn't be a shock to really anyone here. Ms. Klassen: Thank you for coming out to present today. We also didn't mention that you're a graduate from law school, and I want to personally congratulate you on that right now.

Every time –I want to point out that every time I've mentioned four-legged relations in t he House, I have been outright laughed at by the members opposite, the members of the PC team. But just so you know, from my youth, for the generations yet unborn, that will not stop me from trying to protect those who cannot speak for themselves today. So I want to also thank you for teaching us about what our southern relations are doing across the border there, and if you can expand on that and what your hopes –you know, are you wanting them to stop the bill tonight and then bring in some of those teachings?

If you can expand on that.

October 31, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 221 Mr. McKay: Yes, definitely. We think the bill should be delayed until we can have a proper discussion about what shared management is. And this is a unique circumstance where we're not just pulling things out of thin air. There is a precedent for this in different parts of the world actually not that far from us. So yes, I think we should have a full conversation of that. But before my time is up, I just want to give thanks to Ms. Klassen, Smith and Fontaine for being here today.

This–I think this process would be a lot more difficult if you three weren't here tonight, so miigwech. Mr. Chairperson: We want to thank you for your presentation, and we will now move on to the next presenter. Thank you very much, Mr. McKay. Bill 35–The Crown Lands Amendment Act (Improved Management of Community Pastures and Agricultural Crown Lands) (Continued) Mr. Chairperson: We will now move on to Bill 35, the presenters from Bill 35. Is Brian Lemon in the crowd? Brian Lemon? Mr. Lemon, do you have any written material for the committee? Mr. Brian Lemon (Manitoba Beef Producers ): I do. Mr.

Chairperson: We will get the page to distribute that. You may start your presentation. Mr. Lemon: I hope my voice lasts. I'm in the middle of our fall district meetings, and I've been spending evenings speaking fairly loudly to producers across this province, so. [interjection] You know what, the water won't help. But anyway, thank you. My name is Br ian Lemon. I'm the general manager with the Manitoba Beef Producers. The Manitoba Beef Producers are pleased to provide comments to Bill 35, The Crown Lands Amendment Act. Manitoba Beef Producers believe the changes proposed through Bill 35 are positive.

MBP, or Manitoba Beef Producers, is the primary voice of Manitoba's beef industry, representing approximately 6,500 beef producers involved in all the various aspects of the beef industry, including cow-calf, backgrounders and finishing sectors. Cattle production is a major economic driver in Manitoba, creating thousands of direct and indirect jobs and deriving millions of dollars in purchases of goods and services. MBP appreciates this government's and, more specifically, Minister Eichler's personal commitment to growing the beef herd and its confidence in our sector.

MBP believes the long- term economics of livestock production in Manitoba are sound. Taking advantage of these economic opportunities, though, depends on having stable, consistent and predic table policy and regulatory environments. This includes the policies related to Crown lands and ag Crown lands. These lands are critically important to both the current and the future viability of Manitoba's beef sector.

Many producers rely on predictable access to Crown land leases as a major part of their operations, and, in many cases, affordable access to these lands is going to be essential to new entrants due –to our industry and to the efforts to grow the provincial cattle herd. If the beef cattle sector is to grow, it is essential that these lands be distributed in the most predictable and transparent manner possible and that their use be both effective and efficient for producers. These are critical principles to maintain in relation to Crown land legislation, regulation and policy.

Over the past year, Manitoba Beef Producers has engaged in several discussions with provincial government about Crown land policies. This included changes that were made to the ag Crown land leases regulations and the ag Crown lands grazing and hay permit regulations last year. Manitoba Beef Producers also participated in the consultations related to the modernization of the policies related to these programs. Bill 35 proposes to provide for an auction as a one –as one op tion for determining fees and rents for agricultural Crown lands.

MBP believes –or has provided input around an auction process during the previous consultation processes and supports this approach in principle. The old points -based allocation system was of ten very frustrating for cattle producers, creating confusion and leading to appeals. MBP believes demand should be the determinant of price for agricultural Crown land, and the truest way for this is an open auction process. MBP supports the use of a fa ce-to-face auction process. MBP cautions that placing any minimum price on these lands will interfere with the market forces and will artificially raise the price to

222 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 31, 2018 producers. It is MBP's position that there should be no minimum prices for agricultural Cr own lands. Rather, the market and the producer's willingness to pay should be allowed to determine the cost of these lands and these permits –these leases and these permits. Further, MBP recommends the creation of a system whereby the bid results are made publicly available, such as the bid results library that's used by Manitoba Infrastructure. This would help ensure greater transparency and help inform producer decision-making processes.

MBP looks forward to the discussions with the government about how t he public auctions would work, including methods for notifying prospective bidders of available parcels. Bill 35 also allows for certain lands to be designated as community pastures and to regulate how they are used. Manitoba Beef Producers sees considerable value in this approach. Just as access to agricultural Crown lands is key to the success of Manitoba's beef industry, so too is access to community pastures.

When the federal government announced that it was winding down its Community Pasture Program and transferring the land to the federal –or to the provincial government, MBP sprang into action. Working with the pastures' patrons advisory committees and other stakeholders, including the government, MBP advocated for the creation of an independent, not -for-profit group to assume management of these pastures.

This led to the creation of the producer-run Association of Manitoba Community Pastures. * (20:00) MBP is appreciative of the past funding through Growing Forward 2 and from the Canadian Agricultural Partnership that has fa cilitated the transfer of these lands and creation of AMCP. Bill 35 notes that, and I quote: the purpose of the community pastures to support haying and grazing on rangelands in a manner that maintains and conserves the ecological integrity and natural biodiversity of the area.

So clearly these pastures support both livestock production as well as providing valuable ecological goods and services. Earlier this year, a report released by the International Institute for Sustainable Development provided an ecosystem services evaluation for AMCP-managed pastures. The study found that the ecological goods and services derived from these pastures are worth $13.3 million annually, taking into account factors such as forage production, carbon sequestration, biodiversity, and much more. MBP sees considerable merit in the AMCP continuing to manage this valuable pasture system.

Just as AMCP provides sound stewardship for the pastures that they manage and helps the Province meet its conservation objectives, so do ca ttle producers utilizing agricultural Crown lands. MBP believes that beef producers –as beef producers, our members are some of the very best stewards of the landscape. With this in mind, MBP believes that it's important to place agricultural benefits of these assets at a level footing to the environmental objectives.

MBP believes that the two sets of objectives are completely complementary and should be considered symbiotic, and the agricultural production should not be sacrificed to deliver the environ mental or conservation objectives. MBP believes this could be achieved, in part, with the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Eichler) being delegated authorities over all of

section 7.2 of the act by the Lieutenant Governor. MBP notes that

section 7.7(7) of Bil l 35 provides for the making of regulations with respect to community pastures including, and I quote: governing, regulating and prohibiting any use, activity or thing in designated community pastures or specific designated community postures. End of quote. MBP believes this provides the opportunity for regulations for informed access by members of the public seeking to enter Crown lands within the community pasture system. This principle needs to be applied to all Crown lands –or, agricultural Crown lands, sorry.

MBP has never looked to block public access; rather, is looking for informed access by members of the public wishing to access Crown lands used by cattle producers. Specifically, MBP believes that public access must be limited to those circumstan ces where the public has prior authorization from the lessee or permit holder to access the Crown –the ag Crown lands. MBP believes these rights need to be strengthened to protect livestock, producers and the public. Unauthorized access can lead to signif icant biosecurity issues, can endanger livestock and

October 31, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 223 producers, can endanger the public, and can lead to litigious liability concerns. Providing clear rights of access and clear prohibitions for unauthorized public access will strengthen the effective and efficient use of these agricultural Crown lands. MBP respectfully requests that a provision for informed access to all agricultural Crown lands be added to The Crown Lands Act.

Going forward, MBP looks forward to engaging with the government about the regulatory framework that will accompany the changes being made in The Crown Lands Act as well as other topics such as unit transfers, ownership requirements, improvements on the agricultural Crown lands, and lease and permit lengths. MBP also looks forwar d to participating as the government undertakes a fulsome review of the act in the coming year, which I understand is to take place by the department.

By working together, the cattle sector and the provincial government can envision agricultural Crown lands system that will help strengthen and grow Manitoba's beef industry. In closing, Manitoba's cattle producers are the single largest users of agricultural Crown lands. and the success of the agricultural Crown lands program has a bearing on the success of beef producers. Thanks–Manitoba Beef Producers thanks the committee for the opportunity to provide comments on Bill 35 and I would be pleased to answer any questions. Thank you. Hon. Ralph Eichler (Minister of Agriculture): Thank you for your presentation.

I know you've been on the road talking to producers each and every day. It's that time of year where you're able to get together, your producers, and we appreciate you sharing your comments with us. But we heard a presentation earlier tonight in regards to staying with the old points system, and it’s going to be –the new legislation should be heartful for young producers to get started. Would you just explain to the committee the Manitoba Beef Producers' position on this comment? Mr. Lemon: I almost jumped you.

Certainly, I think we recognize that in the –in prior times, there was a specific policy focused on trying to help new entrants with the Crown lands policies. It's Manitoba Beef Producers' position that if we're going to be successful with these lands, they need to be effective and efficient, and that's –should be the guiding principle, i f we can look at a way to make sure that these lands are used in the most effective way possible regardless of the producer. An auction is really a way of –is a way of measuring demand and measuring a way of a producer's willingness to pay.

And so we're supportive of the auction. Mr. Ted Marcelino (Tyndall Park): Mr. Lemon, the question I have –oh, thank you, first, for being here. There's concerns about young farmers, or those who are stepping out to become beef producers, getting sidelined and marginalized by bigger corporations because of the way that this bill would allow big corporations to get ahead in bidding by auction those agricultural Crown lands that will become available.

Knowing fully well that you represent the beef producers of our province –and we thank you for your work–do you think it's a well -founded fear on the part of the young farmers? Mr. Lemon: I think certainly there's lots of work to be done with the –working with the government and the industry in terms of the actual design of the regulatory framework and the policies that come out of these changes. But what I've seen in the –in what's being proposed, we're talking a corporation where every member of the corporation has to be a farmer, has to be actively involved in managing the land.

I would suggest that that probably goes a long way towards alleviating a lot of those concerns about –we heard about pension funds and things like that coming in and bidding on those lands. So I think as long as we leave it in the hands of producers–and, you know, our producers are going to be–they're going to be worried to make sure that they're able to actually compete against their fellow producers for this land.

I don't think any of them think it's going to fair that they compete against large corporations for the –for access to the land, but I think what I've seen in the bill thus far, looks like you need to be a producer to–a farmer or a rancher to apply for a lease. Mr. Marcelino : Yes, don't you think there is an imbalance in the availability of credit regarding, say, an auction of a substantial acreage of forage or

224 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 31, 2018 grassland which is agricultural Crown land? Do you think it's not even material or relevant in the way that most young farmers think about their future in this province? Mr. Lemon: I think access to capital is a huge challenge for all producers. And having access to–I would argue that producers –there is probably no more important relationship than relationship they have with their banker. And so access to capital and access to Crown land is a way around that.

And so that's not something unique just to young producers, albeit I certainly can see that, young producers getting in, the access to capital issues are that much more exaggerated, for sure. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Marcelino, but our time is pretty much up, so if you– Mr. Marcelino: I'll make it short. Drought has affected some of our agriculture Crown lands, especially those that produce forage. And has that been a concern, let's say, of cattle producers abandoning their business? Mr. Lemon: I think we're seeing a larger number of cattle going to market this fall than we would typically see, for sure.

And that's directly related to the availability and the affordabil ity of feed. So certainly that is happening, for sure. Mr. Chairperson: We thank you for your presentation, Mr. Lemon, and we thank you for being here. We will now move on to our next presenter. I will now call on Christian Artuso, Bird Studies Canada. Christian Artuso? And if you could correct me if I'm mispronouncing your name. * (20:10) Mr. Christian Artuso (Bird Studies Canada): Fine job, Sir. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Artuso, do you have any written material for the committee? We will get the page to di stribute it.

Once it 's been distributed, you may start your presentation. Mr. Artuso, you may start. Mr. Artuso: Thank you, everyone. I did provide a written comment but I might ad lib a little bit or add an additional comment, perhaps. My name is Dr. Christian Artuso. I work for Bird Studies Canada where I –nationwide NGO, concerned, of course, about conservation. I also work with many other organizations and various committees. I'm also involved in the Range and Implementation Management Group and we work directly with the AMCP, the Association of Manitoba Community Pastures at a larger level.

Tonight I'm going to speak on behalf of Bird Studies Canada, and I'm mainly here just to talk about

section 7.7. So, on behalf of Bird Studies Canada, I'm actually here to express my support for this amendment. And perhaps you might find it a little surprising that a conservationist would say that, but I've outlined the reasons for this below. They are in bullet form on the handout. And primarily, I'm here to support the statement of purpose which is expressed in 7.7(1), and if you'll let me read that, it says: the purpose of community pastures is to support grazing and hanging on range lands in a manner that maintains and conserves the ecological integrity and natural biodiversity of the area.

I think that is superbly stated. Let me explain why. In the prairie ecosystems of the Great Plains – and of course we are in the Great Plains here, and southern Manitoba west of the Canadian Shield is part o f the Great Plains system –grazing is a key ecosystem process that has maintained grasslands for millennia. Formerly, of course, this was bison who provided this service. However, interestingly enough, today well -managed cattle grazing can provide the sam e service if done well in proper context: native mixed -grass prairie.

Interestingly enough, if you remove the process of grazing, the habitat changes over time. This is a relationship that the animals and plants have, to speak to an earlier point. Now, t he plough print in Manitoba has been expanding significantly.

This is particularly 'imparent' since the turn of the 21st century and we have lost a great deal of native grassland habitat, so much so that grassland species at risk that are designated as eit her threatened or endangered under both the federal act–that's the Species at Risk Act, or SARA, and the Manitoba act, that's the Manitoba Endangered Species and Ecosystems Act, or ESEA, and, I might add, as well by the IUCN, the International Union for the Conservation of Nature

October 31, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 225 globally–these species have disappeared from much of their former range in Manitoba. Many species which used to occur as far as Winnipeg even in the 1980s –in fact , I live in St. James and some of these species were found in St. James until the early 1980s, you now have to travel to the west of the province, in fact the far west province, and the only place you will find these grassland-dependent species is where sufficiently large parcels of prairie grasslands occur.

In recogni zing this and the urgency of the situation, conservationists, 'conservant' sentences – concerned citizens, are united to find ways to prevent the further loss of native prairie. Much of the remaining native prairie in Manitoba is, interestingly enough, in cattle production. This means that conservationists such as myself partner with cattle producers as stewards of a declining ecosystem. Now, community pastures represent some of the largest tracks of native grassland in Manitoba.

And well-managed examples–and I'd like to give you two examples that I'm quite familiar with: Spy Hill-Ellice and Ellice-Archie Community Pasture near the town of St -Lazare in western Manitoba. If you're not familiar with them, these pastures provide exceptional biodiversity value s, and I would stress the exceptionality of these pastures.

Since 2015, I have been–Bird Studies Canada and myself have been conducting surveys on these two pastures and have documented that, in fact, they contain the highest concentrations in the province of some of our rarest species, most notably Sprague's pipit, which is provincially threatened; chestnut - collared longspur, which is professionally – provincially, excuse me–endangered; as well as good concentrations of Baird's sparrow, which is also provincially endangered; and a long list of other birds and animals and plants. As an ornithologist, I tend to speak to the birds.

I'd like to further mention that these –this area, these pastures, these community pastures actually represent probably the only area left in Manitoba where a person can truly experience what native prairie means, where you can immerse yourself in the so-called sea of grass, that famous term, and be surrounded by the full palette of colour, song and fragrance that is native prairie. It's hard to find. Nonetheless, these community pastures, though they are an extraordinary biodiversity asset, are vulnerable to loss and disturbance and their future is by no means secure. They warrant immediate protection.

If they are converted to other land -use types or if they're overly compromised by linear developments, surface disturbances, then the aforementioned species may indeed become extirpated in this province. Increasingly, therefore, this presents an opportunity for conservationists and agriculturalists to work together. These lands can be managed to simultaneously produce good- quality food–in this case, that's beef, since these are ranches –and support ecological integrity and natural biodiversity.

This integrated approach, I think, will serve future generations of Manitobas well –Manitobans well, both economically and environmentally. And, if I might add to my script the interesting example given by Mr. Harder earlier tonight of hardship and the –a producing family have to move away from their home community when a community pasture in Saskatchewan was lost and they did not have enough land to graze their cattle, hence forcing them to move away. And this is a real concern in other parts of Canada –in prairie Canada.

And I'm very pleased he re tonight that we have this amendment that should allow for the protection of these community pastures in this province. So, in conclusion, protection of these pastures, as enabled by this amendment, is both urgently needed and laudable. I would like to emphasize, however, that designation is the first step. Certainly, sound management must follow. That is absolutely critical. This should include mechanisms to prevent disturbance to the designated pastures, and I hope to have the opportunity to work together with you to do just that.

But once we've achieved designation, we can work together to further support our native biota and provide a home for some of our most threatened species. Thank you very much. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Artuso. Mr. Eichler: Thank you for your presentation and taking the time tonight to present to us. And I found your presentation quite interesting. In regards to, following up my colleague from Tyndall Park, in regards to it being a bit of a drier year in certain parts of the province. Now, the community pastures are managed by the Manitoba community pasture association, and is

226 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 31, 2018 there any concerns in this legislation or advice you may have for us as we get ready to move forward, whether it be in the regulations or anything in the act? Mr. Artuso: Thank you for the question, sir. No, I don't have specific concerns that I wish to address tonight, but the principle should be upheld of maintaining–managing in such a way as to maintain the ecological integrity and natural biodiversity of the area. I do believe that is a key concern. I do–I have had the opportunity, especially over the past three years, to work with a lot of beef producers.

I have surveyed a lot of private land with beef producers, and I've –interestingly enough–found them to be excellent stewards of the land and have been pleased to find large numbers of species at risk on some of our well -managed cattle pastures in the province. So I do think we have an opportunity to work together. I do think that these things can work together–and, again, as long as we adhere to those key principles. * (20:20) Mr. Marcelino : Your favourite subject, which is – which are the birds, is also mine.

And I usually worry a lot when I don't see birds along the highways feeding when I'm driving through, especially Highway 59 and Highway 75 and all the way to Highway 6 just during the fall . I usually visit northwards to see the changes in the–but that's beside the point. There is an advisory group that will be formed as a result of the efforts of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Eichler). And is that something that you would consider if g iven that role as a member of that advisory group so that we could protect the birds? Mr. Artuso: Thank you very much for the question, Mr. Marcelino.

If you'd like to see some prairie and the birds, then I'd be happy to take you on a transect starting in Winnipeg and going west instead of north. And the reason I would like to do that is to sh

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	41-3-sed7
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	41st 3rd hansardpdf sed7.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	88693563e49e0511384542dc6dcf0259b3db4af0

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