Fifth Session, 41st Parliament

(2020) REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS

(HANSARD)

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY,

SECTION A

Virtual Meeting

Friday, June 26, 2020

Morning Meeting

Issue No. 3

ISSN 2563-3511

The HTML transcript is provided for informational purposes only.

The PDF transcript remains the official digital version.

CONTENTS

Committee of Supply

Proceedings in

Section A

Estimates: Ministry of Education (continued)

Hon. R. Fleming

D. Davies

Estimates: Ministry of Labour

Hon. H. Bains

J. Martin

S. Furstenau

FRIDAY, JUNE 26, 2020

The committee met at 9:37 a.m.

[S. Malcolmson in the chair.]

Committee of Supply

Proceedings in

Section A

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF

EDUCATION

(continued)

On Vote 21: ministry operations, $6,657,927,000

(continued) .

The Chair: Good morning, everybody. I want to recognize that we are

participating today here, me and the Clerks, in Victoria at the

Legislature buildings from the homeland of the

Lək̓ʷəŋin̓əŋ-speaking people,

today known as the Songhees and Esquimalt Nations. We extend our

appreciation to them for their stewardship and for the opportunity

to undertake the work before us on their land.

Members are meeting from traditional territories all over the

province in this new digital way that we are continuing the work of

the people but also keeping people safe.

We are meeting today to continue consideration of the

estimates of the Ministry of Education.

Hon. R. Fleming: Thank you, Madam Chair, for getting us underway with that

territorial acknowledgment.

D. Davies: Good morning, Chair. Good morning, everybody. I look forward to

getting back. I think we’ve got about four or five hours remaining of

our estimates. That is a joke. As much as I have many questions that

probably could go on, I won’t. I think we’ve got about an hour or so

left, and we should be able to wrap it up.

I’d like to start off with a few questions around what the fall

looks like for returning back to school. I know that the government put

out a release yesterday: “June School Restart Sets the Stage for

September.” I know that there’s some information in there.

I’ve received a number of emails from teachers and parents and

notes from kids over the past number of months — lots of concerns, lots

of good stories as well. I think parents are just kind of looking for

some sort of certainty when it comes to what September might look like.

I’m just wondering if the minister could give us a bit of a rundown on

what he envisions.

[9:40 a.m.]

I know a lot of it depends on how the pandemic goes, but if we’re

expecting the stage 2 full return as laid out in the news release…. I

just wanted to get a few comments from the minister on that.

The Chair: For the benefit of the public, because I’m sure people from

all over B.C. are tuning in on cable TV or online to watch our

proceedings, this is a process called the spending estimates. Each

minister comes before this committee and takes questions from the

opposition about their budget and their programs — how they’ve spent

the money, how they will spend the money. And this goes on for

weeks.

Usually it’s happening parallel to the main chamber, so you’re

watching bills being debated in the legislative chamber. But in one

or sometimes two and sometimes even three committee rooms like this,

this work is going on. At the end of all the questions and the back

and forth which may, in some cases, take days and days or even a

week, there will be a vote as to whether the minister’s budget and

spending estimates are approved.

In between, the minister is conferring with his advisers. So

that’s why we have very long pauses in between. Usually in the

committee room, there would be a huddle of the minister and his

advisers. But in this case, they may be in a separate city. I’m

talking to them online, so it’s slow. Thanks for hanging in there

with us.

Hon. R. Fleming: Yeah. As we explained in the news release and on previous

occasions with the daily updates and frequent media questions to Dr.

Bonnie Henry and news conferences that I’ve done myself, the goal is to

have even more students in class in September, as long as it’s safe to

do so. We’ll continue to work under the direction and science-based

leadership of the provincial health officer.

It’s too early to say exactly what September 8 will look like, of

course, and I know the member will understand that. I also appreciate

that people are looking for certainty in an uncertain time. We have 74

days to September 8, so it’s too soon to say exactly what the restart

will look like.

But what we have committed to and the public and parents can

expect is [audio interrupted] the pandemic and the public [audio

interrupted] will continue on a daily or near daily basis in British

Columbia. There will be lots of information about schools that is shared

with the public on a timely basis. We have a steering committee that is

composed of all the K-to-12 education partners working on the September

restart. We talked about that yesterday in estimates and the

representation there.

I communicated yesterday through BCCPAC in a letter jointly signed

with their president to all parents in British Columbia reminding folks

what the stages document looks like, what we’re aiming for and what

steps they might want to take immediately. We talked in estimates

yesterday as well about it being advisable for parents to re-register

their child where they would normally place them in school and await

further information both from the school, the district and the ministry

and the steering committee that we have.

[9:45 a.m.]

D. Davies: Thank you, Minister, for that. Certainly, we understand

that parents…. Everybody is looking for some

sort of clarity and comfort in this time, and we understand that it is

unknown as we move forward. So I appreciate that and hope we can get

more information on it.

I want to talk a little bit about the steering committee. I know

it was canvassed a little bit by my colleague from Cariboo-Chilcotin

yesterday. To reiterate the importance of having representation from not

just the larger urban centres but members on that committee that make up

some of the smaller school districts, the rural, remote, northern

districts to be on that…. So I’d like to reiterate that first of

all.

Secondly, the steering committee. I see that it is also mentioned

in the news release. What is their role directly? Is it to provide

advice back to the ministry on what the school opening should look like?

Or is it bringing to the table just a number of recommendations on

different areas that they’ve been assigned to? I guess the second

question is: what kind of a timeline do we have on hearing back about

these recommendations?

Hon. R. Fleming: Thank you to the member for the question. A couple of things here.

There is a president’s group that I chair that meets biweekly that’s

composed of all of the presidents and executive directors and staff

leadership of the major K-to-12 organizations, partner organizations. In

fact, we have a meeting coming up.

The steering committee that was referenced in the press release

that the member cited is composed of a number of working groups that are

getting established now.

As you can appreciate, we are getting a flood of information about

the June restart from all 60 school districts and the independent

schools around the province which is [audio interrupted] steering

committee deliberations. They meet weekly. They review materials that

have been produced.

[9:50 a.m.]

There will be a substantive update in July to the public, another

substantive update in August and regular communication in between, as

needed.

In terms of giving the member a sense of some of the things that

the steering committee will be working on and where they will provide

advice and guidance [audio interrupted] things like emerging practices

and consideration [audio interrupted] sector during the COVID-19

pandemic, things like the [audio interrupted] from March to June 2020,

both stages 4 and 3 that we’ve been through, identification of issues

that need to be addressed and resolution of those

mitigations.

They will be tasked with updating the operating guidelines for

stages 1 to 5 well in advance of the 2020-21 school year. The emphasis

will be on implementation plans for a variety of scenarios, stages 1, 2

and 3.

The other area that the steering committee will focus on is review

and development of additional teacher and parent resources that will

support the school system in any of the contingencies, either stages 1,

2 or 3.

We have, as I mentioned yesterday to the critic’s colleague,

received very robust voices from rural British Columbia. I think they’re

well represented in all of the K-to-12 partner organizations. We expect

people who live in diverse parts of [audio interrupted] to be directly

represented at the steering committee.

I don’t think that’s going to be an issue, but I certainly want to

say that the Ministry of Education wants to hear about rural and remote

schools. We have had direct channels throughout the pandemic health

emergency with rural and remote school districts, where they have needs

that urban district do not have around connectivity, around

transportation, around delivery of services that may be a considerable

distance from where the school is.

We’ve also had conversations with them about exemptions for their

specific circumstances in stage 3. Some schools in rural and remote

communities actually operated at 100 percent of capacity because the

density of kids in those schools was limited, and it was [audio

interrupted] to do so. We’ve been very flexible and willing to work with

the rural and remote districts on putting in place regulations or

amending regulations and health and safety [audio

interrupted].

The Chair: Members, I think we’re experiencing some technical

difficulties. I’m going to suggest that we recess for five

minutes.

We’re in recess for five minutes to check this technical

problem. Thanks for your patience.

The committee recessed from 9:53 a.m. to 10:06 a.m.

[S. Malcolmson in the chair.]

The Chair: We are currently reviewing the budget estimates of the

Ministry of Education. We’ve just, with thanks to Hansard, gotten

ourselves and the minister’s microphone glitch-free.

I’m going to recognize the minister first and hope that you

can get your closing comment on the reply to the member for Peace

River North so that we are sure we’ve got it all on the record. Then

I’ll return back to the opposition critic.

Hon. R. Fleming: The response was around the president’s group in the K-to-12

sector that I chair bi-weekly. We talked about the steering committee,

which was outlined in the news release that the member cited. How they

meet weekly and how they’re divided into a number of working groups on

important areas. Then, maybe, where I finished was around the plan for

the steering committee, governments and the PHO, if necessary, to

provide substantive updates in July, an additional one in August and

regular communication on an as-needed basis.

Again, we’re 74 days out from September 8, the first day of

scheduled school for the 2020-2021 school year. That’s roughly the

timeline that the member was inquiring about for communications from the

committee and the working groups. That is inclusive of all the major

K-to-12 organizations.

D. Davies: Thank you, Minister, for the response.

In the event of a second wave, which I know has been discussed and

talked about, what is the ministry’s plan to manage that?

[10:10 a.m.]

Hon. R. Fleming: Thank you to the member for the question. As he is familiar with,

we have the five stages document that was released by the ministry,

which was developed with the provincial health organization, WorkSafeBC

and all of the K-to-12 partners. We have been in stages 5, 4 and most

recently, for the month of June, stage 3.

We were one of a handful of jurisdictions in North America that

resumed in-class instruction over the last month, which I think puts us

at a very good advantage to both move forward and, in the scenario the

member describes, to move backwards if we need to, depending on what’s

going on in the province as it relates to COVID-19 transmission next

year.

I think the detail that the member might seek is well documented

in the stages document. We’ve talked about where we hope to be for the

September restart, which is stage 2 [audio interrupted]. The steering

committee is charged with, among other things, providing additional

direction on what those stages might look like. We intend to keep moving

forward as long as it’s deemed safe to do so by the provincial health

office. The way we have outlined the stages for pandemic management in

the K-to-12 schools is that we can move backwards if we need to do so.

It’s quite nimble and flexible.

There would obviously be a number of signals that would be at the

call of the provincial health officer in terms of where we are, what

community outbreaks are looking like, what transmission rates are and

new cases. Those sorts of things would inform us if we need to move

backwards. Just as we hope that over the summer, they will continue to

help us move forward to a stronger restart with more kids in school

[audio interrupted].

D. Davies: I appreciate that.

The next question I have here is on autism funding. I’ve had

discussions and had a number of parents reach out. I’ve met with a

couple of the different organizations in the province, as well, over the

last little while. With the funding dollars that the families get on

autism, of course, lots of that money is used for therapies and

interventions and other programs. During the last few months, though,

with the pandemic, parents have not been able to utilize these

therapies.

I know they’ve been asking to see if that money can be rolled over

into next year. So far, they’ve been told no. I’m just wondering why

that is and if the ministry is reconsidering allowing that money to roll

over.

Hon. R. Fleming: To the member, he’ll know that autism funding for children is

distributed. It goes directly to families. It’s distributed by the

Ministry of Children and Family Development, so he might want to take

those questions there.

Autism funding that the Ministry of Education is responsible for

is directly funded to schools. There are, really, two levels of support,

with different ministry responsibilities for them. So I would suggest he

maybe hold those questions for the Minister of Children and Family

Development.

D. Davies: Okay, thank you for that.

I’ve got a question, and I’m going to use an example from my

school district, which is a similar situation in many rural communities

across the province. It’s around the funding review and some of the

busing issues that many of the larger rural ridings face. I’m just going

to read a little bit here from a budget consultation presentation that

was made.

[10:15 a.m.]

It’s regarding the student location factor, and I’m going to use

the example for school district 60. Provincially, districts spend about

1.9 percent of operating expenses on transportation. Given the geography

of the school district for Peace River North, 6 percent of their

operating expenses go toward transporting students to

schools.

They were hoping that this would have been addressed in the

funding formula. It wasn’t. It still has significant consequences and,

again, this isn’t just school district 60 that’s facing this challenge.

It’s lots of the larger, more remote districts. I’m just wondering if

there is a plan to review that, and when school districts that this

impacts would expect to hear about that?

[10:20 a.m.]

Hon. R. Fleming: I’ll try and give the member as much information at once, because

I know he wants to conclude estimates as scheduled.

He asked about the student location factor that is typically used

to recognize where students live within a district, the unique

geographic challenges, recognizing the costs — including transportation

— in communities and districts like district 60. In terms of where

funding will increase in Budget 2020, most immediately in the ’19-20

year, the budget we discussed at estimates last year, that fund, the

student location factor fund, was at $88.184 million for the province in

’20-21, up $3 million to $91.1 million.

That is of assistance to districts like 60 and other communities

and districts that have rural and remote communities where they serve

students. As it relates to district 60 specifically, through a number of

other funds that help that district in particular and others like it, we

have within the funding formula a small community factor, a low

enrolment factor, a rural factor, a climate factor, a cold weather and a

sparseness factor looking at the distribution of students across a large

geographic area.

[10:25 a.m.]

District 60, for those funds, received $8.8 million in the ’19-20

budget distribution to the district. That will increase in the 2020-21

year to $9.5 million, so that should assist with the issues he

mentioned. I would note, too, that school district 60, at the current

time, has about 7.5 percent of its annual budget in surplus, so they’re

in a pretty healthy fiscal position.

D. Davies: Thank you, Minister. With that, I think that concludes all of my

remarks. Just in closing, I wanted to reiterate a quick comment that my

colleague from Prince George–Valemount made yesterday about the shoulder

tap program, how important that program is. And I believe that you said

that you’d be looking into that, so I look forward to hearing that from

the ministry.

I just wanted to thank the minister for his time on the estimates

for the 2020 budget. Thank your staff. I know there’s a lot of work that

goes into preparing this, of course. And all the Hansard people, the

chairs that have made this fairly easy, actually. I was kind of

surprised how easy it was and didn’t know what to expect.

I want to close by thanking all of the teachers and school

districts, trustees, support staff, parents and, last but not least, the

students for how they’ve managed and moved throughout this pandemic — as

all of us have — and looking forward to seeing what September looks like

and mostly looking forward to this pandemic being over and moving on to

some form of normalcy.

As a final remark, certainly, again an enormous congratulations to

all of the graduates of 2020. They did not expect to see the graduation

that they saw this year, so this will be something that they will look

back on for the rest of their lives, I’m sure, as they move on. So with

that being said, that does conclude my remarks.

The Chair: Seeing no further questions, I’ll ask the minister whether

he’d like to make any closing remarks before I call the

vote.

Hon. R. Fleming: Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you to you and others who

have chaired these estimates proceedings. They’ve gone without a hitch,

but for about 15 minutes ago. The technology clearly works. We’re living

in the new normal, both at the Legislative Assembly and in industries

and occupations and work settings throughout the province of British

Columbia.

I feel very fortunate — and I know this will be shared by British

Columbians in every part of the province — that we live in a

jurisdiction that has shown that the public health care system, the

pandemic management here, is among the best in the world, in our

province. Clearly that shows in the results of keeping British

Columbians safe thus far. Certainly, that leadership has been

instructive and incredibly valuable for this school system and how

important that is to community and family life in British

Columbia.

I would echo the critic’s thanks to the school system. Just to put

it in perspective, we have in excess of 70,000 people who work on behalf

of kids and families in the school system. So it’s everything from….

It’s janitorial staff, who have met and exceeded the new cleaning

protocols, the health and safety protocols. It’s the teachers who’ve

gone above and beyond, creating a brand-new system for continuous online

learning. It’s the principals and vice-principals, who have communicated

with families on a regular basis.

It’s those voluntary organizations in the community who have

stepped up — some of them are restaurateurs and community service clubs

— to help feed kids who are facing hunger and uncertainty in the

pandemic and brought into being meal programs that serve 75,000 meals a

week. It’s Internet service providers and others who work with First

Nations in remote communities to make sure that connectivity was

possible, and we’ll keep working on those efforts.

It’s the teachers who came back into the classroom after they’d

set up their remote online learning systems to put smiles on the faces

of kids again. I think we’ve had overwhelmingly positive responses to

the four successful weeks of returning to school.

[10:30 a.m.]

I think B.C. can be proud of the leadership we have been able to

exercise in North America; it’s certainly being recognized across this

continent. We’ve had inquiries from the departments of education in

Washington state and Oregon and California and provinces and territories

across Canada, asking for everything that we’ve done in terms of

planning and creating a safe return to school. That leadership, I think,

is something that all of us can share some pride in.

They normally shy away from getting thanked, but I really want to

thank the ministry staff, from the deputy minister on down — all of my

ADMs, executive directors and staff — who have been putting in

incredibly long hours ever since we made the difficult call to suspend

in-class instruction on March 17. These people haven’t had much by way

of a day of rest in the weeks and months that are now behind

us.

In wishing everybody a safe and happy summer — the families and

kids in the school system, everybody who works in the field in the

public and independent school sectors — I want to maybe share the last

thanks for every member of the staff at the Ministry of Education who

have been working incredibly hard alongside those in the school system

on the landscape of British Columbia. We’ve done it together by being in

it together. We’ve stayed safe. I think that everybody has, hopefully,

the ability to have a well-deserved break ahead of them as we get ready

for a strong September start-up.

Thank you to the critic and his colleagues for the questions.

Thank you to Hansard and the Legislative Assembly for being able to

arrange this new means of conducting estimates.

The Chair: Thank you, Minister. I’ll echo the critic and the minister’s

congratulations to graduating students who have come through a

really hard time. To the tens of thousands of people across British

Columbia working in the school system and working for students: it’s

been an incredible spring, and you’ve done well.

Seeing no further questions, thanks to the minister and the

members.

Vote 21: ministry operations, $6,657,927,000 — approved.

The Chair: We are going to recess for the next minister. Let’s come back

to work in ten minutes. So if the committee agrees, we will recess

for ten minutes for the purpose of inviting the next minister to

join us. Thanks, everybody.

The committee recessed from 10:33 a.m. to 10:49 a.m.

[S. Malcolmson in the chair.]

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF LABOUR

On Vote 35: ministry operations, $17,185,000.

[10:50 a.m.]

The Chair: Minister, do you have any opening statements you’d like to

make?

Hon. H. Bains: Yes. Thank you, Chair. Good morning, everyone. I would like to

acknowledge that I am appearing by video from the Songhees territory,

which the Legislature stands on, and I’m grateful to be here. I am

supported by staff who are working remotely. It is a privilege to call

this beautiful province our home.

While we participate in estimates differently this year, one thing

remains the same: I start this introduction with my ministry’s budget.

For the fiscal year 2020-2021, the Ministry of Labour has been allocated

$17.185 million. This reflects an increase over last year due to a lift

related to the employment standards branch modernization project. With a

modest budget, the ministry has accomplished a lot of good for the

people of British Columbia, especially now, during the COVID-19

pandemic.

It’s as important as ever to make sure British Columbians are

supported by their government. My ministry and staff have worked hard

over the last several months to make this so. We have passed emergency

legislation to give people job-protected leave during the pandemic if

it’s related to COVID-19 reasons. As well, WorkSafeBC has created

reopening guidelines for a wide range of businesses so they can open in

a safe way.

COVID-19 has changed the province in a way we never thought

possible. But some problems existed before the pandemic. Our government

is acting to fix those problems while protecting people and keeping them

safe. Just this week our domestic and sexual violence leave bill passed

second reading in the House. This bill allows survivors to take up to

five days of paid leave to care for themselves and their

families.

We continue to make strides in improving the employment standards

branch. We have provided and will continue to provide incredibly

important support for our forestry workers hardest hit by mill closures.

Modernizing WorkSafeBC and shifting the workers compensation system to

better support injured workers remain an important priority for us as

well.

In closing, I would like to thank everyone who is supporting me

here today. These are very hard-working staff of my ministry. We have

tried everything that we could, but we put them through a lot in the

last few months. So much was expected of our ministry, and our staff

delivered.

Those joining with me are: Trevor Hughes, deputy minister; Joanna

White, acting assistant deputy minister and executive financial officer

of the management services division; Danine Leduc, assistant deputy

minister; John Blakely, executive director of the labour, policy and

legislation branch; and Michael Tanner, the director of the labour

policy and legislation branch.

Joining me from WorkSafeBC, we have Brian Erickson, head of

assessments, finance and corporate operations, and Al Johnson, head of

prevention services. Also with us are Joe Pinto, the head of claims and

rehabilitation services, and Ian Shaw, head of law and

policy.

I look forward to your questions. Thank you very much for the

opportunity for the opening remarks.

The Chair: Thank you, Minister.

I now recognize the opposition critic for Labour, the member

for Chilliwack.

Would you like to make any opening statements?

J. Martin: Thank you very much, and good morning to everybody. I would like

to take this opportunity to give a shout-out to the Clerk and the staff

at the Legislative Assembly and everyone at Hansard. It’s amazing what

has been pulled together in such a short period of time and how this

week’s sessions, the hybrid sessions, have basically gone off with very,

very few speed bumps. A couple hiccups here and there. Incredible hard

work and it’s much appreciated, allowing those of us who are members of

the Legislative Assembly to continue serving the people of British

Columbia. Thank you.

[10:55 a.m.]

If I may begin a round of questioning with the minister. The first

handful of questions are going to be general inquiries to get a better

understanding of the true depth of the financial impacts of COVID-19,

particularly on this specific ministry.

Perhaps we could begin…. If the minister could speak a little bit

about how COVID-19 has impacted revenues within the scope of this

ministry and how it might have impacted expenses within this

ministry.

Hon. H. Bains: On the impact of revenue and expenses to our ministry, there

hasn’t been much impact. On the revenue side, we maintain our revenue as

it was in the beginning of the year, and on the expense side, we have

cut back on some of the expenses. So overall, there’s not much impact on

revenue or expenses.

J. Martin: Thank you very much for that, Minister. In a similar line of

questioning, can you describe how COVID-19 may have impacted capital

expenses and capital timelines in your ministry?

Hon. H. Bains: On the capital expenditure, we have no impact.

J. Martin: Thank you for that. So with the province surely now in a state of

deficit, how will the ministerial holdbacks be impacted?

Hon. H. Bains: At this time, we have no information as far as the finances are

concerned, and that would impact our holdback.

[11:00 a.m.]

The Chair: I’ll say to the member for Chilliwack that the previous

minister we had encouraged that that question be directed to the

Minister of Finance when she takes her seat.

J. Martin: Thank you for the comment, Chair.

Were any additional funds provided to the ministry for COVID-19,

specifically? If so, how were these allocated within different

departments?

Hon. H. Bains: No additional finances have been forwarded to the ministry due to

COVID-19.

J. Martin: Have assumptions as described in Budget 2020 for the employment

standards branch changed? Have they gone up? Have they gone down? How

does this impact the ministry budget overall?

Hon. H. Bains: We’re in the second year of reformation of the employment standard

branch, and nothing has changed in these two years.

J. Martin: Have any of the key service plan targets for this ministry changed

as a consequence of COVID-19, and will they still be met?

Hon. H. Bains: No change to our target, in general terms, and no change to those

targets due to the COVID-19.

J. Martin: Has the Labour Ministry been hampered in its ability to process

applications or to interact with stakeholders? And if there has been

some impact, can the minister describe it, please?

[11:05 a.m.]

Hon. H. Bains: The ministry has maintained its key strategic functions amidst the

COVID-19 emergency. All ministry services have remained operational,

with temporary limits to some in-person service delivery in order to

control the spread of the virus. All offices are providing virtual

service delivery, and most remain physically open to provide in-person

service to clients, with appropriate precautions in place. So we

continue to function during the COVID-19. And yes, the delivery of

service sometimes has changed during the virus.

J. Martin: Can the minister be specific in terms of which stakeholders have…?

Has there been a change in the interaction with them, and what’s been

done to mitigate it?

Hon. H. Bains: We continue to engage with our stakeholders, as we always have

done pre-COVID-19. As I have said, the way we interact with our

stakeholders sometimes changed in certain areas of our delivery.

Overall, there’s hardly any change.

J. Martin: And just one final question in this particular round. Can the

minister cite the single biggest disruption that COVID-19 has impacted

within his ministry?

Hon. H. Bains: The biggest change, I would suggest, due to COVID-19 is like

everywhere else. In-person interaction that people are used to, that the

stakeholders are used to — going into the employment standards branch,

or going into the WCB office, the WAO office — has changed. Sometimes

they had to do virtual meetings.

I think that probably is the biggest change during the COVID-19 in

our ministry. Overall, all of our departments continue to operate,

continue to provide service, when they are approached.

[11:10 a.m.]

I would suggest that that is the biggest change, as we are seeing

right now. The way we used to do estimates was in person, face to face.

But now we are going virtual. I think this is the new normal that people

went through with COVID-19. That’s what happened in our ministry as

well.

J. Martin: Thank you for that, once again. That concludes the opening round

of general inquiries.

I wanted to move now to WorkSafe, if I may. Can we begin with…?

Perhaps the minister could provide an update on the review that was

conducted last year by Janet Patterson.

Hon. H. Bains: A number of reviews were conducted in the last three years. Paul

Petrie — the WCB hired a consultant to do a review of their policies and

practices. They also engaged Mr. Bogyo to deal with the surplus, and

Lisa Helps to deal with how we investigate major injuries and deaths in

workplaces. Those reports are being…. Some of them are being looked at,

at WCB to proceed with. Others require legislative changes.

Then there was Janet Patterson, as the member has mentioned. That

report was also to look at the inner workings of WorkSafeBC. That

report, we are still considering. Then we will make an announcement in

due course about that.

J. Martin: With respect to the review by Janet Patterson, when will the

public be able to see the report and recommendations?

Hon. H. Bains: Our intention is to release the report. We are still considering

it. It will be released in due course.

J. Martin: How will the ministry consult with stakeholders regarding the

implementation of any such recommendations in that report?

Hon. H. Bains: As the member knows, sometimes we are accused that we are

consulting too much. I just want to assure the member that once we make

the decision to release the Janet Patterson report, then the

consultation process will begin. We will take the input from those

concerned with the report, especially stakeholders and others, and then

we will take into consideration how we move forward, based on the

consultation feedback.

[11:15 a.m.]

J. Martin: Will there be any effort to prevent certain stakeholders from

feeling left out of the process, such as what is alleged to have

happened during the consultation for the review?

Hon. H. Bains: Member, we have demonstrated with our actions in the last three

years that we want to include everyone possible, especially those who

would be impacted by the recommendations and by the policies of the

government when we are considering those policy changes.

Certainly, we would encourage everyone to participate — those who

would be impacted by it, even others. We’ve done it in the past. The

other three reports also went for consultation, and we received good

feedback from those three reports. I expect the same thing: robust

consultation and feedback from our stakeholders. And then we will

consider the feedback before we move forward.

J. Martin: Does the minister anticipate any of the recommendations being

impacted or modified as a consequence of COVID-19?

Hon. H. Bains: Member, I think that would be part of the consultation process:

has anything changed since the report was delivered to me on any area of

those recommendations that Janet Patterson has listed? So I think we

will watch it. We will monitor it. If there are areas that need to be

looked at because of the input through the consultation from the

stakeholders, then we will certainly seriously look at it and consider

it.

J. Martin: Thank you. Can the minister tell us what WorkSafeBC’s current

surplus is in light of COVID-19?

[11:20 a.m.]

Hon. H. Bains: As you know, Member, the market has fluctuated during this

springtime due to COVID-19. I could tell you that at the end of last

year, the assets over liabilities for the WorkSafe accident fund was

sitting at 152 percent. And as I said, with the fluctuation in the

market…. We have since seen the improvement in the market. We are

sitting at approximately 145 percent under right now.

J. Martin: Is the minister considering ways to use the existing surplus or

unappropriated balance during the COVID-19 pandemic?

Hon. H. Bains: Member, I think the WCB and all of us must be very, very careful,

especially the way the market has gone due to COVID-19. Their main

mandate is to protect the workers’ health and safety and to look after

them when they are injured or they become ill at the workplace. We want

to make sure there’s a sufficient fund to pay for the past, current and

future claims.

Having said that, due to the growth in the economy in the last

number of years and, also, a good return on the investment, WCB and

their investment team were able to realize really good assets over

liabilities over the years. Their mandate is to maintain 130 percent

just to make sure that there is a cushion in case the market fluctuates,

but now they’re sitting at 145 percent.

There’s always that opportunity to look at how we improve the

workers’ side of the equation and also how we make sure that, for the

employer, the system is affordable and that we keep that balance. I

think there is expectation from the workers’ side.

Since 2002, 2003, there have been cuts to the benefits. There have

been reductions in benefits. At the same time, the employers…. The WCB

board has decided to give them a premium break since 2006.

I think they’ve been very prudent over the years. They are very

prudent, and that’s why they are in a very good financial situation.

They were before COVID-19. They are now still very strong financially,

and that’s important. When there’s opportunity as….

The board has engaged Mr. Bogyo to look at what can be done with

this surplus. When we talk about a surplus, we’re talking about any

funds that are over and above 130 percent. They want to maintain 130

percent. Anything over and above — there’s always the opportunity to

look at how we improve the workers’ benefits side and also, at the same

time, help the employers’ side as well.

J. Martin: Can the minister elaborate just exactly how that surplus might be

used to the relief of workers and/or employers?

[11:25 a.m.]

Hon. H. Bains: I think the right answer would be that we are watching the market

very carefully. Certainly, there is demand from both sides, and I think

there always would be an opportunity. As I said before, the board

engaged Mr. Bogyo to look at what can be done with that extra surplus —

over and above 130 percent — that can be utilized to help the workers

and also make sure that it’s a system that will continue to be

affordable for the employer as well.

We haven’t made any decisions, as you know. If we change any part

of the benefit side of the workers, it requires legislative changes. It

requires changes to the Workers Compensation Act, so the member will see

when and if we bring that legislation. There are those reports that

require certain legislative changes. We haven’t considered Janet

Patterson yet, but others we are considering, as I said before. Once we

finalize, the member will see the introduction of legislation to that

effect.

J. Martin: Changing topics slightly to workers compensation and claims: given

that so many workplaces have been shut down for several months, has the

minister seen a reduction in WCB claims?

Hon. H. Bains: The member knows that during the last three or four months, the

workforce all across British Columbia was reduced — decreased. And as a

result, there were fewer claims during the height of COVID-19. I would

say March, April.

[11:30 a.m.]

Those claims are starting to go up again and on both sides — on no

time-lost claims and the time-lost claims. The current trend is that as

the workforce decreased due to COVID-19, plants were shut down, workers

were laid off and claims went down. But as the economy is starting to

pick up again, we are restarting the economy again, claims are starting

to go up again.

J. Martin: Is the minister able to give us a rough approximation of how much

was saved in the last three or 3½ months with the reduction in

claims?

Hon. H. Bains: The net impact during this time is insignificant. What I’m advised

is that, yes, the overall claim volume was reduced, but at the same

time, the per-claim cost was higher, because it’s difficult for injured

workers to get back to work during these tough times.

Having said that, it’s too early to see what impact it will have

on the overall claims and claim costs for WorkSafeBC. We have, still, a

number of months to go. I think we will be in a better position at the

end of the year to see exactly what the real impact on the total number

of claims and the cost of claims will be by that time.

S. Furstenau: Thanks to the opposition critic. This is the time we’ve organized

for some of our questions. I appreciate the opportunity to ask the

Minister of Labour some questions at this time.

[11:35 a.m.]

I want to start with the precarious work question for the

minister. Anything outside of full-time, permanent, benefits-associated

work is increasingly becoming the new normal in British Columbia. Gig

workers, contracted workers, part-time employees, seasonal, temporary

work, irregular hours and more aspects of our modern workforce now make

up a significant majority of employment in our province.

These workers are those without a sufficient safety net in terms

of employment benefits like health care and sick pay; lesser financial

security, like the ability to secure a mortgage; and sometimes the

inability to qualify for federal programs like employment insurance.

There exists a very significant disparity across the range of workers

from those in truly precarious positions, like those who are underpaid

without benefits, to those who may be making in excess of six figures by

consulting independently. So it doesn’t fit into a single category, this

type of work.

I would be interested to know from the Minister of Labour: how

does his government define precarious work?

Hon. H. Bains: Thanks to the member for the question. It is, I think, a very,

very important question. As the economy changes, the way we do work

changes, and it brings its own challenges as a result of that. The

member knows that. We’ve seen more and more precarious work.

We have no definition in my ministry of how to describe precarious

work. Others may have. But we all know that there are people who are

working two, three, maybe more jobs in order to make ends

meet.

In our ministry, we are making changes to make sure that the

people who are at the lowest end of the financial rung are supported.

That’s how we made the changes to the minimum wage. We’re going to be at

$15.20 on June 1, 2021. Right now I believe we’re sitting at about

second or third highest in the country.

At the same time, we have some other vulnerable workers like

temporary foreign workers. We brought in legislation to protect those

workers. Recruiters now have to be licensed, and we are working on

having the employer also register with the employment standards branch.

We added resources to the employment standards branch to ensure that we

are on the proactive side of the enforcement rather than reactive, as it

was in the last 16 years.

I think we’re doing everything that we can in our ministry, within

our mandate, to help those people who need the most help. Many of those

precarious workers….

I might add that the member may have heard a story today; a

decision may be coming from the Supreme Court of Canada. I think those

precarious workers have won a huge victory at the Supreme Court of

Canada, Heller v. Uber , where they were told that in

order to resolve your dispute, you need to go to the Netherlands for

mediation and arbitration. You know it would be almost impossible for

any workers to travel to the Netherlands to deal with their

issues.

We are doing everything we can to make sure that we remove the

roadblocks, the barriers to justice for workers. In fact, we got rid of

the self-help kit, in addition to all the other things that we are

saying. So I think we’re doing everything we can right now.

[11:40 a.m.]

But it’s not lost on us. It’s certainly not lost on me that the

precarious workers need protection, and we are not there yet. It is very

live with me and for our government.

S. Furstenau: I appreciate the minister’s comments on this. I think it’s

interesting to note that if precarious workers, as in the case you cite

just now, the case at the Supreme Court of Canada, have to find

themselves using the courts in order to fight for their rights as

workers, that is a very strong indication that there is legislative work

to be done to protect these workers.

That is not how people should have to get protection for their

rights as workers, by going to the Supreme Court. As the minister would

know, that would be unavailable to a lot of people, to be able to pursue

that as an avenue. It’s an excellent indication that there’s legislative

work to do.

Further, on the question about…. The minister does not have a

clear definition. I think one of the challenges with that is that it’s

very hard to start to collect really effective data that can then inform

the decisions that need to be made legislatively.

Has the government, in any way, been collecting data on how the

impacts of COVID-19 have been specifically impacting precarious workers

in B.C.? If not, is there any plan to start collecting that data? If

there has been data collected, how granular is it — year-to-year-based

trends over time, or is it just a beginning?

It’s a lot of questions packed into one, but I’m hoping the

minister can let us know what kinds of efforts are being made to really

track the impacts on precarious workers as a result of

COVID-19.

Hon. H. Bains: Let me answer this question this way. Our ministry does not

collect data as far as the impact of COVID-19 and its impact on jobs.

Other ministries are doing it. Advanced Education and the Ministry of

Jobs collect data.

As we all know, though, the hardest hit areas during COVID-19 are

the hospitality, tourism, retail and restaurant industries. As you know,

many of those are lower-paid and part-time workers. Certainly, it has

the biggest impact on those workers.

I think as the economy improves, as we reopen, as the Premier

announced phase 3…. I think the first priority of all the government

ministries was to make sure that we maintained health and safety and

protected the health and safety of our citizens. Then, under the

guidelines of Dr. Bonnie Henry and the guidelines prepared in

conjunction with the WCB, we open up the economy in a safe manner so

that when we move forward, we continue to slow the spread of COVID-19

and the virus.

[11:45 a.m.]

I think we’ve been successful so far. But like I said before, and

as you have suggested, the precarious work, the part-time work…. I came

to know anecdotally that ride-hailing drivers were not working. Not very

many were working during the pandemic. But now, as the economy opens up,

and people feel more comfortable with their health, they are starting to

utilize those services.

We, actually, especially in my ministry…. I’m looking at how we

make sure that the people in every sector, whether they are full-time

workers, part-time workers, precarious workers, the new economy…. How do

we, one, protect their health and safety, and two, that they are paid

fair wages…? I think that’s where we are going to go.

We had a lot to do in the last three years. We’ve been here, as

you know, only three years. We have achieved much, and much more to

do.

Also, another area — I will leave it with you — is the exclusions.

You may know that there are a number of occupations that are excluded

from employment standards. We will be looking at that. We haven’t had

real time to delve into that. Then there are areas of the new economy

and how people work — as you have mentioned, precarious work. We will be

looking at that as we move forward.

Thank you for the question.

S. Furstenau: A little bit further on this, picking up on the comments that the

minister made about protecting health and safety.

Another very significant issue that has arisen as a result of

COVID-19 and the impacts has been around workers who do not feel that

they can take sick days. Here in British Columbia, obviously, we saw an

outbreak in a poultry-processing facility as a result of workers feeling

that they weren’t able to take sick days. As we continue in this

pandemic and the uncertainty that it brings with it, paid sick leave and

security for workers are going to be really essential to be able to

ensure that people are following the directives of the health officer to

not go out and to not work when they’re sick.

My question for the minister is: can he give us some insight into

where things are at with implementing sick pay for employees in B.C. and

whether changes that he sees at this time would be permanent? Who does

he expect would be covering the costs associated with sick pay — the

employers, the province, the federal government? It would be great to

get some insight into where we’re at with that conversation.

Hon. H. Bains: Another very good question and very timely. As the member knows,

we’ve seen cases where workers were working when they were sick, when

they should not have been working. That caused a lot of problems and

also helped spread the virus.

It’s not the workers’ fault. I think they’re torn. They stay home,

and then they get hit economically. They go to work, and then the virus

is spread and transmitted to other workers. It hits the employer and

their ability to operate. The business ended up being shut down, in one

case. I think it was a lose-lose situation.

That’s why we felt it was important that workers who are sick, who

are showing signs, flu-like symptoms, should have stayed home. Again,

it’s an economic hardship that they face. They know the rent still has

to be paid. They know the mortgage still has to be paid. They know there

are other expenses — groceries and clothes for children.

[11:50 a.m.]

They still need an income, and they can’t afford to stay home. I

think those are very, very challenging times for the workers and for the

employers, for that matter. They both were hurting as a result of

that.

The Premier, as you know, was very, very persistent, and he fought

hard with the federal government, trying to bring other colleagues from

other jurisdictions along. Finally, the federal government announced the

$14 billion package. Part of that was sick leave. We were happy that the

federal government listened and that, finally, that relief is

there.

Right now the details of how it’s going to be implemented are

being worked out between the federal government and the provinces. Once

more details are worked out and the terms are worked out, we will be

making that announcement. It will be a federal plan, paid for by the

federal government, coming out of the $14 billion.

S. Furstenau: Can I just follow up on that very quickly with the minister? It

will be a federal plan. But can the minister speak to the permanence of

this plan? Is this just for right now, or does the minister see this as

a permanent shift to guarantee that workers have access to sick

pay?

Hon. H. Bains: As the federal government and the provinces are involved in this,

I see this as time-limited to deal with the COVID-19 virus. I’m not sure

whether we can make it permanent. I think we will continue to work with

the federal government to see if we could put some permanency to

it.

The Premier was very clear that we want to see that there are paid

sick days available to workers here in B.C. and all across Canada for

obvious reasons. But he also suggested that we don’t want to add more

burdens onto the employers, because they’re also hurting

already.

I think we have to find a solution. How do we make it permanent?

Those dialogues, hopefully, will continue during the discussions that

are taking place between the federal government and the province. What

the outcome is, I think we’ll see.

S. Furstenau: Just switching gears to a topic that is of great interest for the

B.C. Green caucus: the emerging economy. As we begin an economic

recovery from COVID-19, we really feel strongly that all efforts need to

be forward-looking and investing in the emerging economy as opposed to

the economy of the past and really focusing on bringing prosperity to

people and to future generations.

Supporting the provincial workforce in the recovery from COVID-19

will take investment in new sectors that will result in more resilience

for communities and for the whole province. My question…. It’s a big one

for the minister. If he could give us some insight into what kind of

planning and what kind of work he’s doing to ensure that recovery

efforts are focused on the forward-looking, emerging economy in

B.C.

[11:55 a.m.]

Hon. H. Bains: I think, as the member may know, that the emerging economy task

force, under the Ministry of Jobs, is working on this particular area.

It shows that the government is very, very serious and keen in this

particular area. We agree with the member that this is where I think our

future lies. So we need to pay attention to this particular

area.

The second piece is the Premier’s economic recovery task force.

They have businesses, labour representatives, NGOs and others, who

discuss: “How do we utilize the $1.5 billion that is set aside to

restart the economy?” I think those discussions take place there but, at

the same time, also at the Ministry of Jobs. Member, maybe you need to

inquire during those estimates and see where that ministry is, as far as

the report on the emerging economy task force.

I move that the committee rise, report resolution and completion

of the estimates of the Ministry of Education and report progress on the

estimates of the Ministry of Labour.

Motion approved.

The Chair: Thank you, Members. This committee now stands

adjourned.

For members of the public, we’re back at 1:30.

The committee adjourned at 11:57 a.m.

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