March 20, 2002 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No. 2

The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

MR. LUSH: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I raise a point of order arising out of a couple

of incidents in the House on Thursday, and I am raising the point of order for

future guidance and direction of hon. members.

The point of order, Mr. Speaker, raises a couple of concerns in respect to

points of order or privilege that may be raised re interjections made from a

non-operating mike, particularly on the day after when one awaits the arrival of

Hansard to check out further what was said and discovers that the remarks made

are not in the written edition of Hansard.

To be more specific, I refer to the couple of instances that were raised. One

was a point of order made by the Minister of Justice and Attorney General re

some serious remarks which were made by the Leader of the Opposition re three

Crown prosecutors had become judges. Since the remarks were not withdrawn, they

have become problematic. In reading Hansard, we find that the remarks are not

there.

Now, similarly, the Minister of Transportation made unparliamentary remarks.

I think he said "he lied" and the remarks were withdrawn, so that is

not problematic. It becomes problematic when the offending remarks are not

withdrawn.

In the copy of Hansard, the written copy of Hansard, we find that the remarks

made by the Minister of Transportation were included but the remarks made by the

Leader of the Opposition were not.

Mr. Speaker, the question, the concern that needs to be addressed, is: what

criteria is used for including interjections from non-operating mikes, so that

hon. members can know this in the future.

I have observed many times, in reading Hansard, that all kinds of remarks are

entered into Hansard. Sometimes it says the name of the member, sometimes it

just simply says: An Hon. Member. So, it would be instructive for all hon.

members if they knew what criteria was used in exclusion or inclusion of remarks

by Hansard so that we can all know.

Mr. Speaker, the other thing which is very important is, when looking at the

Hansard the next day, in terms of whether a point of privilege ought to be

raised, or a point of order, and we see that the remarks are not in the Hansard

and, on playing the video - because we do have two records of the House: the

written copy of Hansard and the video. The question that arises is: What is

authority used by the House in those matters ? Is it the written copy of Hansard,

or is it the video? More appropriately, I guess, the question that ought to be

asked is: Occupants of the Chair - because it is not only Your Honour - who are

making these decisions, what authority do they use in doing that? Is it the

written copy of Hansard or is it the other medium?

Mr. Speaker, that should direct hon. members in the future in terms of

raising points of order or points of privilege, and should offer guidance and

direction for members in the future.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

What is next? Do we go to the Internal Economy Commission and ask for a goal

judge to sit in the gallery so that we can second-guess the rulings of the

Speaker? Essentially, that is what the Government House Leader is talking about.

A point or order was raised and dealt with by the Chair. What needs to be

understood here, clearly, is: What is it the Government House Leader is after?

Is he, after the Speaker's ruling, to challenge the Speaker's ruling through

the back door in terms of further clarification? The Speaker, in his role,

clearly rules on points of order. He has made his ruling on this particular

point of order. If you want to challenge it, there is an opportunity under

substantive motions under the rules of the House to do exactly that. If you want

to challenge it, stand up and challenge it.

Mr. Speaker, I submit to you that what is really going on here is just a

further political prank that we have become accustomed to since this House

opened, by the government, particularly since the House of Assembly has been

televised, and more particularly, Mr. Speaker, and to the point, since the

Member for Humber West has taken his seat in this chair, because that is what

this government is up to.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. E. BYRNE: Foolish points of order, points of privilege that really

are points of order, all designed, Mr. Speaker, by a desperate group,

unsolicited, unwarranted, unjustified, and I submit to you, Your Honour,

unacceptable in this Chamber.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair will recognize the hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi to

the point of order and then come back to the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Without getting into the kind of debate that we just heard from the

Opposition House Leader, I will say that if the Government House Leader wants to

rely on Hansard then he has to stand or fall by what is recorded in Hansard.

If there was a complaint about something that was said by a member opposite,

then I think that the proper method to complain is - if it was not recorded - to

repeat what someone heard another hon. member say, and if the member denies it

then the Chair has to rule. I think in this case, the Government House Leader

said: We will see what is in Hansard. We will rely on Hansard. If it is not

recorded in Hansard, well then I think that is the end of the matter. So I would

suggest that if, in future, people want to complain about what another hon.

member has said as being unparliamentary and ask to withdraw, they are going to

have to say what they heard the member say.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HARRIS: And then if the member denies it - an hon. member would not

deny having said something that they said and would apologize. I think that will

solve the problem that the hon. Government House Leader has gotten into by

saying he is going to rely on Hansard; and if it is not recorded in Hansard

there is very little we can do about it.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, that is the kind of direction I was looking for,

was given by the Leader of the NDP, and looking for information that was

valuable to all hon. members. I thought all hon. members like to know the rules

of the House and whether the written copy of Hansard is the supreme authority or

whether the video is.

Let me assure you, Mr. Speaker, that this hon. member has too much respect

for the Chair to ever challenge its ruling or ever to try and influence its

ruling in any way. Mr. Speaker, I have never challenged the Speaker, never in my

lifetime, and it will never happen. I respect the Chair and the rules of the

House too much for that.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

To the point of order raised by the hon. Government House Leader. In the past

the Chair has used the written recorded verbatim transcript to rule, but there

have been occasions when - before the print was made - the Chair has used tapes

as well to listen to what has transpired in the House and to rule based on what

I heard on the tapes. The Chair has never used the video tape, of course,

because we are just into televising House and we have never considered that at

this point, but it might be something that the Chair will consider and take

under advisement.

To the other point that the hon. member raised, how Hansard records

interjections. That is something that I will certainly take under advisement and

discuss with perhaps the hon. House Leaders as to why certain interjections are

recorded and others are not.

Before we begin our proceedings, I would like to welcome to the gallery

today, twenty Level II students from Canon Richards High School in Flower's

Cove, in the District of The Straits & White Bay North. They are accompanied

by teachers: Ms Dorthy White-Dredge and Mr. Genge, along with chaperones: Ms

Jackie Moores and Mr. Mylan Moores.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Members

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East.

MR. MERCER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Before a capacity crowd of almost 4,000 fans, the Corner Brook Royals

recently defeated the Deer Lake Red Wings by a score of 4-3 to win the West

Coast Senior Hockey League championship. A championship which they lost to Deer

Lake last year in the seventh game of a seven-game series.

Deer Lake, defending Herder Memorial Trophy champions, put up a spirited

defence of their title and left the arena with their heads held high in the

certain knowledge that they had given it their best shot and that they would be

back again next year.

Meanwhile, Mr. Speaker, in St. John's, the Flatrock Flyers, last year's

Herder Trophy finalists, defeated Outer Cove to win their tenth Avalon East

Senior Hockey title in the last eleven years.

This now sets the stage for a best of five series between Corner Brook and

Flatrock to determine the 2002 winner of the Herder Memorial Trophy which is

emblematic of senior hockey supremacy in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Game one and two of this series is scheduled for this weekend in the Corner

Brook Canada Games Centre.

Mr. Speaker, while I wish Flatrock well in the upcoming series, I wish even

greater success to the Corner Brook Royals led by Coach Eddie Kearsey, and such

seasoned veterans as Todd Gillingham and Darren Colbourne.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Trinity North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased today to acknowledge the

achievement of Andrew Critch of Hillview. Andrew recently placed first in a

provincial cadet public speaking contest. He is a member of 567 Air Cadet

Squadron in Clarenville.

Mr. Speaker, eighty cadets represented fifty cadet units from across the

Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, and Andrew won first place in the junior

competition for ages twelve to fifteen.

Mr. Speaker, this is the third year in a row that Andrew has represented his

squadron in this provincial competition. This is one in a series of prizes and

achievements that Andrew has accomplished in the area of public speaking.

Mr. Speaker, Andrew exemplifies the tremendous talent that we have in this

Province in our young people, and I ask this House to join with me in

congratulating Andrew on his most recent achievement.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin-Placentia West.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS M. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in this hon. House today to congratulate a

local student who is a credit to her community and to her former school of

Berney High in Burin. Melanie Adams, the daughter of Kurt and Marion Adams of

Marystown, has been named a recipient of the Natural Science and Engineering

Research Council of Canada (NSERC) Post Graduate Scholarship for 2002.

This highly competitive scholarship is valued at $34,600 over twenty-four

months and is based on academic excellence, research potential, communication

skills, and interpersonal and leadership abilities.

Melanie is currently completing her first year of a Doctorate Program in

Biochemistry Research at Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario, and has

excelled in her academic achievements, receiving the Ontario Government

scholarship and the Beaumont scholarship.

When Melanie graduated from Berney High School in Burin, she had over $85,000

in scholarship offers from other universities, proof of her academic excellence,

and I am pleased that she has continued to excel in her studies. As well, Mr.

Speaker, Melanie has also excelled in the study of music and voice and, knowing

her personally as a relative and friend, I know her to be a beautiful, talented

young woman in every aspect.

I congratulate Melanie on her accomplishments and wish her well in all of her

future academic endeavours.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, yesterday morning, I was pleased to attend the press conference

at the Mount Pearl Glacier where the Canadian Hockey Association's Atlantic

Centre of Excellence, together with Hockey Newfoundland & Labrador and the

Mount Pearl Minor Hockey Association, announced that Mount Pearl will be hosting

the 11 th annual Irving Oil Challenge Cup, Atlantic Canada's Bantam

Hockey Championships, at the Glacier from April 11 to April 14.

Each hockey season, 1,600 bantam hockey players throughout Atlantic Canada

compete for the Irving Oil Challenge Cup. While the teams from Nova Scotia,

Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick have not all been determined to date, we

do wish the Newfoundland bantam champions, the St. John's Celtics, all the

best. And, of course, I would be remiss if I did not wish the host team, the

Mount Pearl Blades, good luck as well.

The only Newfoundland team to win the Irving Oil Challenge Cup was the St.

John's Capitals who claimed the 1994 title in Grand Falls-Windsor. This year,

Mount Pearl becomes the third Newfoundland community to host this prestigious

tournament; the other communities being Grand Falls-Windsor in 1994 and Port aux

Basques in 1998.

Congratulations to the host committee, especially to the co-chairs, Mayor

David Denine and Gerard Curtis, and to all the sponsors and volunteers who have

worked so diligently to make this event a tremendous success.

The host committee wishes to invite all hon. members of this House, and all

hockey fans in Newfoundland and Labrador, to visit the Glacier during the

tournament and give our fourteen- and fifteen-year-old players good fan support

while witnessing the finest bantam hockey players in Atlantic Canada give their

best to a game they all love.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased to rise in this hon. House today to congratulate the Labrador

Mtis Nation on the leadership role that they have taken in hosting a symposium

on tourism in Port Hope Simpson to promote and identify economic development

opportunities on the South Coast of Labrador.

Entitled "A Mtis Tour: Appraising the Past, Embracing The

Future", this symposium, which starts today and will also take place

tomorrow, will explore the possibilities for development in tourism in the area

as well as promote local artists with displays by various Mtis artists and

feature local entertainment.

Mr. Speaker, the symposium will also feature workshops and plenary sessions

that explore the links between the Mtis culture and tourism.

I congratulate the Labrador Mtis Nation and their president, Mr. Todd

Russell, on conducting this symposium. As this Province celebrates Access

North-Labrador 2002, I am sure this will increase tourism awareness and promote

the development of this industry on the southeast coast of Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice and Attorney General

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to recognize the International Day

for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination.

Tomorrow, March 21, marks the 42 nd anniversary of the day in 1960

when more than seventy peaceful demonstrators against apartheid were killed and

over 180 were injured in South Africa.

The General Assembly of the United Nations has designated March 21, 2002, as

the International Day for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination. The Province

of Newfoundland and Labrador joins with others who will be celebrating this day.

Mr. Speaker, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador is committed to the

belief that equal opportunity and treatment should exist for all people. Every

resident of our Province has a right to realize his or her full potential,

regardless of race, colour, national or ethnic origin, and live at all times in

conditions of dignity, respect and peace.

The elimination of racial discrimination and racism can be accomplished if we

allow ourselves to live with understanding and respect for those around us. This

is a social and moral responsibility of us all.

Mr. Speaker, I would take this opportunity to commend the work of the

Newfoundland and Labrador Human Rights Association in this area. Their message,

and the Province's message, is that discrimination is a serious social problem

experienced by people worldwide. It is important that we stand up for those who

have been discriminated against, and work together so we can live in a society

where all of us are seen as equals.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Certainly, on behalf of all members on this side of the House, we join with

the minister and I am sure all members present, in recognizing International Day

for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination.

It is imperative, Mr. Speaker, that, as all members of society, we consider

important at all times the issue of discrimination. We must also keep in mind

that Canada is one of the leading nations worldwide in the acceptance and the

receiving of convention refugees. Therefore, many of our citizens, permanent

residents and landed immigrants are those individuals who come from a variety of

races and various ethnic origins. It is an important issue, and we, too, want to

join with the minister in recognizing the good work of the Newfoundland and

Labrador Human Rights Association as they deal with this very important issue.

It is imperative, as I have mentioned, that we always remember the importance of

the issue of discrimination in our society.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We rise in support of the ministerial statement as well. I think, as the

minister pointed out in the statement, there is a responsibility, both socially

and morally, for all of us. As we tune in to watch the evening news or read the

papers we can see that much of the suffering in the world today is caused by

discrimination and racism. Sadly, it is not just in other parts of the world

either, Mr. Speaker, it is not foreign. We have racism and discrimination in our

backyards as well.

I have in my office in Labrador, for many years now -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. COLLINS: By leave, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you.

I have in my office, in Labrador, a poster that I think very well describes a

bunch of children playing in a sandbox, and they are all of different origins.

The caption says: They can play together, but can they work together?

I think that says a lot, Mr. Speaker, because discrimination and racism are

not things that we are born with. They are things that we learn as we grow, and

it is up to all of us in society to help stamp that out whenever we encounter

it.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Finance. The Auditor General, a

very competent chartered accountant hired by this hon. House to provide an

independent assessment of our Province's finances, has expressed concern that

government is, in fact, misleading the people of our Province. In her annual

report the Auditor General also states that the Budget information published by

government focuses on an incomplete picture.

My question for the Minister of Finance: Will she commit today to follow

recommendation 2.2 of the Auditor General's Report and present a budget

tomorrow that is prepared on the accrual basis and includes all government

entities?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury

Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think, for the record, it is important to note, in contradiction to what

the Leader of the Opposition said, that the Auditor General has said that

Newfoundland and Labrador has some of the best financial statements in the

country.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, again, as was mentioned just last week, not

only do we have some of the best financial statements but we have been asked to

present at a conference on accountability measures, quality assurance and best

practices in the country, and Newfoundland and Labrador are actually presenting

some of their policies and procedures.

Mr. Speaker, the member opposite knows, as do the people of the Province,

that all of our affairs are tabled in the House under the Public Accounts. There

is nothing hidden. As much as they want to portray that there is something

hidden, there is nothing hidden. It is all tabled before the people of the

Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, in contradiction to what the Minister of

Finance said, I must remind her that the Auditor General said that we were the

most, least accountable government in the entire country.

Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General, in her last report, said that four Crown

agencies had unlawfully borrowed $7.1 million, contrary to the Financial

Administration Act. She also stated that there is an increase during the past

two years of significant breaches of this act, which is one of our most

important pieces of legislation.

Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Finance confirm that she and her government

will no longer continue to break the law and carry on with their uncontrollable

spending spree?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury

Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, all of our transactions, we believe and

have stood by them, and we appreciate and acknowledge the role of the Auditor

General. I will say again, to contradict what the Leader of the Opposition says

- and you can ask the Auditor General this herself or anybody can ask her - she

states that we have some of the best financial statements in the country, Mr.

Speaker. She also has acknowledged, Mr. Speaker, that we have a plan in place

with respect to our accountability, our financial statements, our tabling of

strategic plans, all of that, and she is well aware of it. She has known it. She

has also acknowledged, over the past number of years, the measures that this

government has taken to address such significant problems as our unfunded

pension liabilities. All of this, in fact, is headed in the right direction, and

we are confident that this is good financial management.

We also say again, very clearly, and we have been consistent, that we have

not, as the Member Opposite says, broken the law. We have followed the law, Mr.

Speaker, and we will continue to accept recommendations. We have made some of

the suggestions and recommendations that she has offered in the past and we will

continue to do that. But, Mr. Speaker, let's be clear: we have not broken the

law.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I suggest that the people of Newfoundland and

Labrador read the Auditor General's report. It is there in black and white.

They have, in fact, broken the law, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, the people of this Province, and in particular the people of

Labrador, are extremely concerned that tomorrow, in her Budget, the Minister of

Finance will read the Labrador Transportation Initiative Fund to the tune of

$100 million, to fix her government's mismanagement of our finances.

Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Finance commit to us today that she will

not take a cash grab from a fund which is set up under the Labrador

Transportation Initiative Fund Act, solely for transportation purposes, and

break a sacred trust with the people of Newfoundland and Labrador - particularly

the people of Labrador - and use it for unauthorized purposes.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury

Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I would invite the member opposite to ask

the members on this side of the House from Labrador what this government's

commitment is and has been to the people of Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

AN HON. MEMBER: They don't have any members.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Because again, Mr. Speaker, they do not have any members

from Labrador. We do have members and we respond to their needs, and will

continue to do so.

Mr. Speaker, I will also say to the Leader of the Opposition, with all of the

very important issues facing our Province today, knowing that the Budget Speech

is tomorrow, is that the best you can do, I say to the Leader of the Opposition?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, his Finance critic asked the same question

three days last week, for the four days we were open in the House of Assembly. I

will say, Mr. Speaker, to the members opposite and to the people of the

Province, I invite them all to listen tomorrow at 2:00 p.m. to the Budget

Speech. I will be happy to read out and explain and answer any questions

associated with any of the budgetary initiatives we announce tomorrow.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I must remind the Minister of Finance that I did, in fact,

attempt to ask one of the members from Labrador - actually, the Minister for

Labrador & Aboriginal Affairs - last week. The Premier would not let him

speak, if I remember correctly.

Mr. Speaker, given this government's track record of poor accountability,

fiscal mismanagement, and repeatedly breaking the laws of this Province, I ask

the Minister of Finance: How does she expect the people of our Province to

believe the smoke and mirrors Budget that she will present tomorrow?

Minister, if in fact you say $30 million, will it really be $350 million, as

the Auditor General says? Or, if you say $50 million, will it really be $500

million? All I ask you, Minister, is: Just tell people the truth.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again, I am interested in the line of questioning by the very hon. Leader of

the Opposition, who has consistently, again today, shown the ability to use

language in here, and attribute it to someone else, that has never been used.

I challenge the Leader of the Opposition to find, in writing, anywhere where

the Auditor General has ever said that the government has misled the people of

the Province. That is what he says in here, and uses the office of an officer of

this House, an hon. officer of this House, appointed by all of us, and he uses

his language and attributes it to her.

Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that it is consistent in how he is abusing the

privileges of this House and abusing all of us as members. It is consistent with

the point of order raised at the beginning of the session today. The hon. member

knows, because it is quite audible on the tapes, that he slandered three current

judges in Newfoundland and Labrador, and anyone who wants to listen to the tapes

can hear it loud and clear.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

And when asked, when brought to his attention by the Minister of Justice and

the Attorney General, rather than stand like the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation, and apologize, he refuses to even acknowledge that he said it,

even though the tapes have it loud and clear what he said, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier to conclude his answer quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

To conclude the point, I challenge again the Leader of the Opposition to find

anywhere in writing from the Auditor General a phrase that says that government

broke the law.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I accept the challenge of the hon. Premier and I refer him to the CBC

Morning Show on February 4, wherein the Auditor General, in her response

said, "People should know that it's misleading...."

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member now is on a supplementary. I ask him to get to his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: The Premier wanted the evidence. He is about to give it to

him.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. WILLIAMS: The Auditor General has said, in writing, that it is

misleading.

Thank you, Premier, in writing.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier is on a point of order?

PREMIER GRIMES: No, Mr. Speaker, I was going to respond. The Leader of

the Opposition made -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Again, I want to remind hon. members that Question Period is not a period for

debate, but a period to ask questions. Of course, I did not detect a question in

the hon. the Leader of the Opposition's - he made a statement, but it

certainly was not a question.

If members have questions, they ought to ask the question and certainly not

make statements because it is not a period for debate. That is why we have

always had a rule in this House where

preambles are not permitted on

supplementary questions.

The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Finance. I say to the minister:

For the very first time, Newfoundlanders and Labradorians will be paying

provincial income tax, even though they will not have to pay federal income tax.

I ask the minister, why is this happening?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury

Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite knows that last year,

2001, the federal government de-linked from the provincial government and now,

instead of having a tax on tax, we have tax on income. The member knows this.

The member also knows that we have announced a three-year tax reduction plan.

The first year we implemented the plan there was a $45 million reduction; the

second year $18 million, or approximately, altogether, about a $60 million

reduction. Mr. Speaker, the member also knows that the third year of the

taxation plan we have deferred because of our fiscal situation, and we have

committed to the Province that we will carry on with that program.

Mr. Speaker, the member opposite knows that we have de-linked from the

federal government taxation system and that now we have our own taxation system

based on our own reductions. The member opposite knows that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister must not understand the question I asked. Credits, Mr. Speaker,

could wipe out the federal income tax but it is not wiping out the provincial

income tax in all cases.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: For example, I say to the minister, the federal spousal

maximum is $6,243; provincially it is $6,055. The disability is $6,000

federally; it is $4,233 provincially. Students have $400 a month attending

post-secondary federally; provincial it is $200 a month.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member now to get his question. He is on a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: I want to ask the minister: Why is the minister forcing

this extra burden on the families of non-working and low income spouses, on

students, and on the disabled?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury

Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I just got through explaining to the member

opposite. I could not quite hear what he was saying. I have to ask him to speak

louder the next time so I can hear it all.

Mr. Speaker, what I will say is that the member opposite knows, as do all of

the people of the Province, that we now are de-linked from the federal

government taxation and there are different thresholds. I am not acknowledging

that ours is the same as theirs. We both know that there are different

thresholds.

Mr. Speaker, again, as I would say, any individual and many individuals have

called the Department of Finance asking about the changes in taxation. We will

offer the same today in the House as we do individually. If you need to be

shown, or if you need some guidance in how the two formulas have de-linked, we

would be happy to do that with you through our officials in the department.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the minister, I have prepared thousands and thousands of tax returns

over the years. I am very familiar, I might add.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SULLIVAN: Nothing. I spoke to accountants and I spoke to individuals.

I say to the minster, I know of people who are filing their income tax this year

with less income than last year and they are paying more provincial income tax

than last year on less income, I say to the minister.

An eighty-six-year-old man, whose son I spoke with today -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary, I suggest he get to his question

quickly.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am having difficulty hearing myself with the noise they are making on the

other side of the House. I am having difficulty hearing myself.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: I am not sure if the minister does not hear me or does not

understand what I am saying. I am not convinced.

An eighty-six-year-old man who is filing his income tax this year will pay

more provincial income tax this year on taking the same exact income and

applying to last year's form. I want to say to the minister, if the taxes that

she is proposing is a tax break, she is giving on one hand, and for many

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, she is clawing back on the other hand. I want

to ask her: Will she correct those inequities in her Budget tomorrow?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President to Treasury

Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I do not know about the volume, but I got

the question.

I can say that over the last three years, the provincial tax savings have

actually - it is clear that we have made improvements so that people are

actually keeping more money. We have actually not only put more money back into

the pockets of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians -

AN HON. MEMBER: Over $100 million.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: It will be over $100 million when it is fully

implemented, but at the moment, in phase three, it is approximately $60 million.

The percentage of savings is about 12.9 per cent up from 8.5 per cent in 1999.

Mr. Speaker, I know the member opposite would love to leave the impression

that it is not working and it is a dismal failure, but there have been actual

savings put forward and achieved through the changes -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to now conclude her answer.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: - that we have made from de-linking from the federal

government versus the old tax-on-tax system.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Trinity North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Health and Community Services.

Last year the Department of Health was advised by the health boards in this

Province that the budgets they were given last year were inadequate. The

minister ignored those comments and in September told this House that health

boards were in financial trouble.

Mr. Speaker, tomorrow the Budget is coming down, but over the last couple of

days the minister's office has been telling health boards that the budgets

that they have submitted this year will not be approved as they are submitted.

So will the minister tell this House today what additional cuts she is expecting

health boards to make next year?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, my office is in very frequent communication with

the health boards around this Province because we recognize the difficult

challenge that they face in trying to deliver health services throughout the

Province within the context of the finances that they have available.

Starting from the Budget time last year - this time last year the boards were

given an additional $50 million to run their operations. The member opposite is

accurate in saying that they did indicate they would have difficulty meeting

that challenge, and that they felt they required more funding; but, Mr. Speaker,

I would also like to recognize that they have been very successful in their

efforts this year to contain their expenditures. We see evidence of that, of

course, in the announcement just this Friday past when the Health Care

Corporation of this Province, the largest health board in this Province, has

indicated that they were able to deliver a balanced budget.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BETTNEY: I think that speaks to their ability to be able to deliver

high quality services and also to live within their fiscal capacity.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Trinity North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Mr. Speaker, I say to the minister, it is no trouble to

balance the Budget if you are going to cut services and eliminate services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Mr. Speaker, in yesterday's Speech from the Throne we

heard the government say that they were going to introduce, in the coming

months, a new strategic plan. We have been waiting on this side of the House to

understand what the existing plan is. We did not know there was one.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Budget Speech indicates that the new

strategic plan was going to talk about the priorities for action. It was going

to talk about the strategic objectives, and it was going to talk about some very

specific performance objectives. I ask the minister: Would she not agree that it

would be more realistic, more reasonable, and a normal, logical, business

practice to lay out the plan before you ask boards to develop a budget? Before

tomorrow's Budget comes down, wouldn't she acknowledge that it would be more

appropriate to have the plan in advance of the Budget?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, I just get a little bit confused when I hear

very conflicting information from the same source. When I look to the comments

from the Member for Trinity North, which were spoken publicly in April of last

year when he indicated that he was looking forward to regional health forums,

that he felt that government would be able to build a vision for health and

community services for the future, that he felt that a lot could come from this

process, that it was going to help work with our community partners. Mr.

Speaker, which is it the member really believes, that the strategic process we

have gone through to develop a health plan for this Province is a necessary and

a beneficial one, or is it one that, as he is suggesting now, maybe shouldn't

have been done and we should be concentrating on other things? Which is it, Mr.

Speaker?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Health and Community Services and involves

the 6,000 home support workers in the Province, Mr. Speaker, mostly women, who

provide services in hundreds of communities throughout the Province. Now that

the Supreme Court of Newfoundland has upheld the Human Rights Commission ruling

that the government, through the minister's department, is the prime author,

supporter and funder of home care services and therefore the employer of home

support workers. Will the minister confirm that the government will acknowledge

that, repeal the legislation declaring the person in receipt of the service as

being employer, and allow for free, collective bargaining in this sector and

allow these workers to bargain collectively with their true employer, the

government, as do other public servants?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, as the member opposite fully appreciates, the

decision that was made under the Human Rights Code and the Human Rights

legislation is one that is much, much broader than the

interpretations that

would be made under the Labour Relations Code.

Mr. Speaker, we are currently, as a government, looking at the decision that

has been reached with respect to this one specific case under the Human Rights

Code and we have not made any decision at this time what we should do in

response to that. Of course, one avenue that is open to us is to appeal the

decision; but, as I say, Mr. Speaker, at this time we are still reviewing this

decision and it will be some time before we will indicate what we are going to

do in response to it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi

Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am shocked, Mr. Speaker, that the minister would take this approach to the

6,000 people involved. Five years ago, in the 1997 Budget, the government

committed to providing workers' compensation benefits for home care workers in

the Province. That has yet to be done, Mr. Speaker.

Can the home care workers in this Province expect, in tomorrow's Budget, a

statement from this government that there will indeed be workers' compensation

benefits for this group of workers who expose themselves to injury in the

workplace, just as every other worker does in the Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, this government places very high value on the

contribution that home support workers make throughout this Province. In the

Budget of last year - because I really should not speak of what is in the Budget

this year. That is the job of the Minister of Finance, and we in this House, as

well as people throughout the Province, will hear tomorrow what the plans are

for our Budget for next year. Mr. Speaker, in the Budget of 2001, this

government actually increased the amount of funding to home support workers by

the sum of $7.4 million. That was a tremendous increase in the benefits for home

support workers, and that was provided to workers themselves to bring their

level of benefits and compensation to a level of approximately $7 an hour.

Mr. Speaker, that was a very significant increase and a big investment in

home support workers in this Province. We have demonstrated with our action, our

commitment to this industry.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Minister of Government Services and Lands. Minister,

the trade practices and licensing division of your department have set the

minimum required returns for gross gaming related proceeds of 10 per cent for

the six-month period of July to December of last year, and 15 per cent from

January to June of this year. I ask the minister if this is a regulation that

applies to all gaming operations, without exception.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

That is a regulation that applies to all Bingo operations.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the minister: Minister, what works in St. John's or Mount Pearl

certainly may not work in rural communities such as Little Catalina, Charleston,

or Lethbridge.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: I think the latest census report will verify that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, does the minister realize that the enactment

of those regulations will mean the closure of Royal Canadian Legions, Lions

Clubs and, most importantly, Volunteer Fire Departments in some rural

communities? Minister, where do you suggest the Volunteer Fire Department of

Little Catalina get monies for gas and equipment to provide for a service that

you demand when you take $11,000 from the only source of revenue on the -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. FITZGERALD: - fifteenth of next month when you intend to revoke their

Bingo licence?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: Mr. Speaker, we have a real problem with Bingo operations in

our Province and we are trying to do something about it. Bingos bring in

revenues of about $50 million a year. It is big business for some people, and it

is only returning about $5 million a year for charities, and many operations do

not manage to return that. We have Bingo operations in the City of St. John's

that are bringing in total revenues of close to $2 million a year and returning

only about a couple of hundred -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. NOEL: - returning less than a couple of hundred thousand a year for

charity. We are trying to do something about that, but we do not want to hurt

these small Bingo operations throughout many communities in the Province that

are doing a good job of raising money for charities in their area and they are

not paying out excessive amounts in rental fees, in wages and that sort of

thing. We are trying to find a way to deal with those kind of operations

differently from the kind of operations that are generating tremendous revenues

but not enough return for charities. It is a difficult job. We did a poll

recently, Mr. Speaker, as a matter of fact.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now conclude his answer.

MR. NOEL: The poll indicated that the people of our Province, some 86 per

cent of respondents, indicated that they felt that we were either requesting

enough or not enough, but not too much as a return to -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Question Period has ended.

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege that I would

like to take a few minutes to explain to Your Honour and to the House.

Mr. Speaker, I think here in our Legislature we are bound by a code that

suggests that, because we are not to be challenged, that we are hon. members,

that we operate on an honour system, and what we say in here is accurate and

truthful.

Mr. Speaker, in the realm of political debate we can suggest certain things

from our own point of view, and that is fair in political debate; but, Mr.

Speaker, what we have witnessed here repeatedly, and again today on a couple of

occasions, particularly by the Leader of the Opposition, is an abuse of the

Office of the Auditor General. That is extremely important, and I would like to

take a minute to lay out the case.

Mr. Speaker, the point is this: The Auditor General has written and

acknowledged that, with respect to the deficit of the Province, that the

Province has reported a cash deficit of $30 million last year and an actual

total deficit of $350 million through the public accounts; and, she has

acknowledged that the accounting of that was accurate, done in accordance with

all proper accounting practices, and signed her name to it. Signed her name to

it!

One other thing that she did very instructively for all of us last year, Mr.

Speaker, was to point out that on three or four occasions, maybe five or six

occasions, out of hundreds of thousands of transactions done in a year, that

several of them were done in contravention of what is referred to as the

Financial Administration Act. That was pointed out to the officials. They

accepted the

interpretation, changed their practices, and thanked the Auditor

General for pointing out a mistake. Pointing out a mistake, Mr. Speaker.

Those are the facts. The Leader of the Opposition today, to give credibility,

to try to give credibility, to a political argument that he wants to make about

mismanagement and misleading the Province and breaking the law, used that kind

of language, Mr. Speaker, which is nowhere to be found in any Report of the

Auditor General.

The Auditor General has never, ever, signed her name to a report that in it

anywhere suggests that anyone in the government misled the people of the

Province about the financial state of affairs in Newfoundland and Labrador. She

has never, ever, signed her name to a document that has that comment in it. It

is not there to be found.

MR. SULLIVAN: (Inaudible) CBC Radio.

PREMIER GRIMES: And CBC Radio, making some commentary and interview, is

not signing her name to an Auditor General's report with the comment in it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

PREMIER GRIMES: This leads to the whole reason for a very serious point

of privilege.

The other thing is this: Let me say it again for clarity, and you will be the

judge, as will the people of the Province be the judge, as to who is being

serious and who is playing politics. The Leader of the Opposition today said:

Stand up, Minister of Finance; admit that you are breaking the law, that you

have broken the law.

Mr. Speaker, what I have described again is the Auditor General, a respected,

hon. officer of this House, who has reported to the government that there were

some transactions that were in violation of the Financial Administration Act.

The same report suggests that, upon those officials being informed that they

were in contravention of the Financial Administration Act, they changed their

practice, made the adjustments, because they did not intentionally do it, and

nobody was trying to mislead anybody and nobody was breaking the law. There were

a few errors made, Mr. Speaker, that were corrected upon being pointed out to

the government.

To take that kind of a serious report from an Officer of the House and to

then try to suggest, and to use inflammatory language and politically charged

language, and attribute it, not to himself -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

PREMIER GRIMES: This is the whole point, and they want to make fun and

make light of it, Mr. Speaker, because obviously they do not recognize the

seriousness and severity of it.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, the point is this, quite fair for the Leader

of the Opposition to get up and say: I interpret that as meaning you broke the

law. But, he stands up and says: the Auditor General has stated that you have

broken the law. The Auditor General has said no such thing. I believe it is a

very severe affront to the Officer of the House, and to all of us, and it is an

abuse of our privileges if we are to sit here, Mr. Speaker, day after day and

hear that kind of political rhetoric and have it attributed it to an Officer of

House as if that officer spoke those words.

Mr. Speaker, I would ask you to look very closely and seriously at this issue

because it is one thing to understand that someone does not know the rules of

the House, is having a hard time learning the rules of the House, or does not

respect the rules of the House, but we should not be expected to sit here day

after day after day and have our privileges abused and the privileges of an

Officer of the House, like the Auditor General, taken into total abuse and

totally misrepresented for the purposes of making political arguments. We will

gladly debate the politics of it at any point in time, but we should not bring

into it the reputation of an Officer of the House like the Auditor General.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I ask you to look into it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to deal with two issues raised by

the Premier. First of all -

MR. REID: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: No, sir. The Opposition House Leader is about to embarrass

your Premier. That is what I say to the Minister of Fisheries.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: First of all, the Premier -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. E. BYRNE: I am on a point of privilege, Tom. This takes precedence.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair is aware that it is 3:00 p.m. on Wednesday. Normally we would get

into the private member's resolution but I do not see a private member's

resolution on the Order Paper, but I understand that there is an agreement that

we will do it.

However, we are now on a point of privilege and I would like to hear what the

other members say.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: I would also like to point out too, that when a matter of

privilege comes before this House, whether it is on Private Members' Day or

any other parliamentary day, it takes precedence over the Order Paper.

Mr. Speaker, two issues I would like to deal with, first of all, raised by

the Premier. The first deals with the comments made by the Leader of the

Opposition and the Premier trying to interpret what the Leader of the Opposition

said. The Leader of Opposition quoted correctly, and let me quote for him on the

first issue when he talks about what the Auditor General did or did not say.

First of all, and I will quote, this is the former Auditor General, herself:

When it goes back to the issue of accountability people should know that it is

misleading to tell people that we have a $30 million deficit, because it is

really $350 million. She used the word misleading, Premier, nobody else. The

Leader of the Opposition, in doing his duty in asking you and your ministers

questions, correctly, and I submit to you, Mr. Speaker, correctly put in context

her words. Secondly, talks about breaking the law. The Premier says misuse of

words.

Could he please explain to me, and to the members of this House, to the

people in the gallery, to the people in the public, and to the people in the

press gallery, what is the difference, or is there a difference, that if you

contravene the Financial Administration Act, which the Auditor General said: Our

review of the four special warrants which were issued on March 28 and March 30

of 2001, indicated that they were issued in contravention of the Financial

Administration Act.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. E. BYRNE: Is there a difference in breaking the law and contravening

the law? That is what I want to know.

Thirdly, the Premier alluded again to the Leader of the Opposition's

question. I will quote directly for him: This act is one of the most significant

pieces of legislation and it deals with non-compliance. So we have contravention

of the act, as outlined by the Auditor General, and non-compliance. What does

that mean? That the act was not followed and therefore it was broken.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: The Premier has alluded to the fact about the Leader of the

Opposition's non-understanding of the rules of the House. Let me point out a

couple to him. In the practice of privilege, for example, in the House, I guess

the most senior person in Canada in terms of the Canadian parliament experience

on breaches of privilege comes in this book called Parliamentary Privilege

in Canada by Joseph Maingot, Q.C. Here is what he says - here is what

privilege is, first of all, Premier, for your information. A prima facie case of

privilege, in the parliamentary sense, is one where evidence on its face as

outlined by a member is sufficiently strong for the House to be asked to send it

to a committee to investigate whether the privileges of the House have been

breached or contempt has concurred and report to the House. That has not

happened, and there is no sufficient case provided by the Premier, flying by the

backseat of his pants on this issue, to support the prima facie case for

privilege.

Secondly, Mr. Speaker, when it comes to privilege in Canada - and this is

extremely important - under the heading Maingot talks about debate on the

question of privilege and the Canadian experience. He says: In the Canadian

House of Commons questions of privilege are frequently raised but extremely few

are found to be prima facie cases. Furthermore - I suggest to you that this is

where the Premier falls into this category. He goes on to say: Furthermore,

members have a tendency to use the rubric privilege to raise what is really a

matter of order, not a matter of privilege, or in the words of the Speaker of

the House of Commons, a grievance against the government.

What is normally questions of privilege, the Premier has not outlined

whatsoever, in any way, shape or form establish a prima facie case whatsoever.

Let me just say this, for the record, this is extremely important, Mr. Speaker.

When you rule on this I would like you to take it under advisement or take under

consideration, reminding all members what privilege is, but for the record: The

second Question Period, when the Leader of the Opposition, the Member for Humber

West, stood in this House the Deputy Premier stood on a point of privilege,

which you later ruled out of order, to what purpose? Trying to create an

impression that the member does not understand the rules of the House. Since

that time we have seen three or four other occasions where the Government House

Leader has stood, even today, to try to create the same thing. Then the Premier,

again, stands today wasting the time of this House with nonsense motions of

privilege which are really points of order, grievances, or disputes between two

members.

Mr. Speaker, let me ask you to do this if you will. In considering this

motion of privilege, when you do, could you please advise the government that

their parliamentary, political stunts are just not working?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair will take the point raised by the hon. Premier under advisement and

rule on it at a later date.

Private Members' Day

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

It is Wednesday and this is Private Member's Day. I know that we do not

have a motion on the Order Paper, but I understand that there is an agreement

that the hon. Member for Cape St. Francis has a resolution that we will be

debating this afternoon.

The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to read into the House a private member's resolution that was

presented in this House before Christmas. For the record, I will read into the

House the resolution now:

WHEREAS the residents of dozens of communities in Newfoundland and Labrador

rely on ferries for transportation; and

WHEREAS seven of the twelve government-owned vessels in the ferry fleet are

older than twenty-five years of age; and

WHEREAS the normal life expectancy of a ferry vessel is about twenty-five

years, as reported by the Auditor General in her 2000 Annual Report; and

WHEREAS there has not been a significant upgrade of the Province's fleet of

marine vessels since 1993, with the exception of the Captain Earl Winsor and

the Ahelaid ; and

WHEREAS the Captain Earl Winsor , purchased from the Government of

Canada for $300,000 in October of 1997 when it was twenty-five years old,

required refit to meet Canadian standards and departmental requirements at a

total cost of $3.6 million; and

WHEREAS the Ahelaid , purchased from Estonia for $764,000 plus $166,000

in custom duties in May of 1999 when it was thirteen years old, also required

refit, which is not yet complete and which will cost in excess of $4.1 million -

which I understand now, Mr. Speaker, is up to over $6.1 million; and

WHEREAS many in this Province who rely on ferries are often deprived of

acceptable ferry service, or any ferry service at all, because the vessels are

broken down or unable to operate; and

WHEREAS the provincial government in the 1980s, while following a policy of

constructing ferries at the Marystown Shipyard, built the Gallipoli , the Beaumont

Hamel and the Flanders , and planned to build a sister ship to the Flanders ,

though that project was cancelled after the Liberal government was elected in

1989; and

WHEREAS constructing modern ferries at the Marystown Shipyard instead of

purchasing old and derelict vessels would ensure the Province has a reliable

fleet while also revitalizing the struggling local shipbuilding industry,

stimulating spinoff economic activity, increasing employment and boosting

provincial government revenues.

THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that this hon. House call upon the provincial

government to implement a vessel replacement policy of constructing new ferries

at shipyards in Newfoundland and Labrador instead of purchasing vessels from

outside the Province.

That is the private member's resolution which I expect will have a fair

amount of debate here in this House of Assembly today. I expect the Minister of

Works, Services and Transportation may speak to it. I hope he does, actually,

Mr. Speaker.

With respect to this private member's resolution, Mr. Speaker, when this

was presented in this House before Christmas, I received some letters of support

from various towns within the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador; one from

Marystown, copied to me, and one from Wabana on Bell Island. There is a lot of

interest in this private member's resolution because, of course, Bell Island

and the problems they have had over the past with respect to a continuous

service. They had many breakdowns over there this past fall, the minister would

agree. Two of the vessels were off on dry dock. They had to bring in a

replacement boat which was not suitable, which could not take the high winds.

Any time there was any amount of wind at all, basically, she had to close down

and the people on Bell Island could not get back and forth for hospital

appointments, for work commitments and what have you, Mr. Speaker. The people on

Bell Island are very interested in this private member's resolution.

Mr. Speaker, this is something that this party has been promoting for some

time. The Member for Baie Verte, in December of 2000, promoted a policy whereby

the government would implement a policy for a replacement of ferries within the

Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. In November of 2000, I, as the Chairman

of the Public Accounts Committee, and looking at the Auditor General's report

at that point in time, wanted a vessel replacement policy put in place by this

Administration, or the government, similar to the one that was there in place in

the 1980s, that this Administration, this government, the Liberal government

decided to cancel in 1989 when the former Premier, Clyde Wells - and many of the

ministers there now were there at that point in time - they cancelled it. Again,

that affected the ferry system in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

I find it a bit ironic, Mr. Speaker, that in the Speech from the Throne

yesterday, when the government knew full well that this was going to be

discussed in this House of Assembly today, that the government announced a

policy of sorts. We really do not know what it is, there are no details, but I

want to just refer to it here and read into the record what was said here in the

House of Assembly yesterday from the Throne Speech. It said, "My Government

will also be initiating a new vessel replacement and refurbishment program on a

cost-effective basis to address the needs of our ferry operations."

Mr. Speaker, what does that mean? I really don't know at this point in

time. I expect we will have to wait for the Budget to come down to see exactly

what the minister says. It is interesting to note that there are a number of

programs that can be tapped into from the federal government, basically, Mr.

Speaker, that can help with respect to putting a policy of this nature in place

in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Other provinces have done it; Nova

Scotia for one, Mr. Speaker.

It is interesting to note that last fall in the House of Assembly, when I was

asking the minister questions with respect to the Public Tender Act, and when I

was speaking on the changes to the Public Tender Act, that the present minister

brought in last fall, to basically purchase ferries or services, if there was a

breakdown or emergency situations, without having to go to public tender,

basically to circumvent the Public Tender Act, which I opposed at the time and

still do, Mr. Speaker, it is interesting to note, at that time - and I don't

understand if this would be one of the programs that the minister would tap

into, because he was so opposed last fall. Basically, the program back in the

1980s, if I understood it, was that the government associated with a private

industry for the private industry to build these three vessels, the Flanders ,

the Gallipoli , and the Beaumont Hamel , and they would lease them

back for extended periods of time, which put new vessels in the system.

Now, the minister seemed to have a great opposition to that. He seemed to be

very opposed to it at that point in time. So, I would expect that won't be one

of the programs that he would use, that he would partner with private industry

to do this. Now, unless he does a flip-flop, of course, which could very well

be. It is not unusual for this government to flip-flop, Mr. Speaker. So, maybe

they will look at that program.

Mr. Speaker, again I wanted to mention that this policy has been a policy of

the Opposition for some years now. We have promoted it many, many times. As I

said, the Member for Baie Verte promoted it when he was the critic for Works,

Services and Transportation. I have done it. I have asked questions in the House

many times, put out many releases on it, Mr. Speaker. So we have promoted this.

I am glad, Mr. Speaker, to be able to stand in this House today and say,

again, that the Administration, the government, are finally starting to listen

to this side of the House. Mr. Speaker, they have adopted another policy of

ours.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. J. BYRNE: Now, I have to say, too, Mr. Speaker, while I am on that,

with respect to our policies. I saw the Premier stand in this House of Assembly

- as a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, I went to Hansard, so I have a copy of

Hansard. The Premier has said in this House of Assembly that oftentimes we have

no policies. Then, on the other hand, he will come out and say, you do have

policies. We will use all of your policies before the next election and then you

won't have anything to campaign on, Mr. Speaker. So again, here we go; it is a

flip-flop.

Just for information purposes, Mr. Speaker, some of the policies that have

been adopted by this Administration that they were vehemently opposed to during

the last election - I will just name six or seven. There are a lot more than

that, Mr. Speaker, but some of the ones that are probably more interesting.

The provincial income tax: We proposed a provincial income tax cut in the

last election, and, of course, the Administration at the time, all the group on

the other side, most of them, Mr. Speaker, and the present ministers, opposed

it. They said: How can we afford this? Well, Mr. Speaker, a couple of months

after the election, what do we have? A provincial income tax cut. They saw the

light in that, and basically bring in more revenue to the Province by reducing

the tax.

MR. SULLIVAN: They don't need (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: That is right.

Mr. Speaker, a very interesting one: We said in the last election we would

cut and eliminate the payroll tax. Again, opposition from the government side of

the House. Cannot do it. Where will we get the money? Mr. Speaker, it should be

remembered that this government are the people that brought in the payroll tax

in the first place; a tax on jobs in Newfoundland and Labrador. Shortly after

the election, Mr. Speaker, what did they do? They proposed and tried to cut the

payroll tax.

Increase the minimum wage; we proposed that in the last election. Again, this

government vehemently opposed it. What did they do last fall, last year?

Increased it.

Mr. Speaker, we are pleased and proud that they have been listening to us and

taking our policies, but please do not get your ministers on the Open Line shows

and in the media and in this House of Assembly saying that we do not have

policies when, what do they do? They adopt ours, every second day, whenever they

can, Mr. Speaker, because, of course, they are void of ideas themselves. They

have been there too long, Mr. Speaker. They are too complacent. That is what the

problem is.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. J. BYRNE: They established a Child Advocate. What did we propose in

the last election? We proposed that very thing, but it could not be done. Now

government has listened to us again. I do not know what they are doing on that

side of the House, coming up with ideas themselves, Mr. Speaker.

Now, others: no forced amalgamation. We put that in our policy manual last

election and now the government has come out and said no forced amalgamation. I

do not need to elaborate on it. I am sure others will, Mr. Speaker.

Also, the ban of bulk water exports, Mr. Speaker. We were opposed to that,

still are opposed to it. The present Premier, who is opposed to it, was not

opposed to it, is opposed to it - flip-flopping all over the place, Mr. Speaker.

Again, they finally came down and adopted our policies.

The new Freedom of Information Act which we just passed in the House of

Assembly, in our last policy manual, Mr. Speaker; what this Administration

basically had nothing to do with; did not want to have anything to do with it.

The list goes on, Mr. Speaker, but we will not go there too much further.

Back to the policy itself, with respect to adopting a vessel replacement

policy, Mr. Speaker. People in the Province should know that there are basically

twenty ferries here in this Province to provide service to sixteen

interprovincial ferry services. They service some forty isolated communities

and/or islands in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. These ferries also

service some 30,000 people in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. It is

also interesting to note that the ferries themselves carry over 800,000 people

each year.

AN HON. MEMBER: Eight hundred thousand.

MR. J. BYRNE: Eight hundred thousand, that is the figure, and some

400,000 vehicles in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

We have vessels here, Mr. Speaker, that are in pretty poor condition, really,

in the Province. We have twelve government-owned vessels; eight privately-owned,

from my understanding; and, according to the Auditor General, fifteen of the

twenty vessels that are in the system are twenty-five to forty-three years old.

Mr. Speaker, I am making the case for why we need a vessel replacement policy.

It is good to see that the government has agreed that we need a vessel

replacement policy, but they have not given us the details. Really, it is hard

to comment on something from that side of the House when they put it out there

in a very vague way, what they are proposing. I will refer to the comments that

I was going to make with respect to this issue.

As I said, fifteen of the twenty vessels are twenty-five to forty-three years

old, and are very often breaking down, Mr. Speaker. Now the minister, as I said,

last year, pushed through the House of Assembly changes to the Public Tender Act

that could allow the government to circumvent the Public Tender Act to allow

them to buy services and basically, in my mind, to purchase a vessel, if they

really wanted to, without going to the Public Tender Act. I have a problem with

that. Again, he will probably get up and try to say that we do not want to

support the people in the various communities I was speaking about; that we do

not want to give them any service, and whatever the case may be. That is his

usual response to my questions and statements in the House of Assembly, which is

not the case, Mr. Speaker. We have been fighting for this for years and finally,

we might see something. Hopefully, it is acceptable. Hopefully, it is something

that we can accept.

AN HON. MEMBER: We will wait and see the details.

MR. J. BYRNE: Again, as I said earlier, Mr. Speaker, we will wait to see

the details.

Now, the Auditor General has said that -

MR. SPEAKER (Mercer): Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. J. BYRNE: By leave, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. J. BYRNE: I will go on for - does anyone oppose it, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member got twenty minutes after and he

has taken his time. I would not want to deprive him of his regular time, but we

gave him twenty minutes after to clue up. He is going to -

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will clue up in my closing remarks at the end of debate, and I will make

some of the comments that I had proposed to make at this point in time.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, it is indeed a pleasure for me today to rise

and to speak to the resolution that has been put forward by the hon. Member for

Cape St. Francis. I would also like to take this opportunity to pay tribute and

to compliment the many people who are involved in the ferry operations within

this Province. Our crews and the people involved in the day-to-day

administration of the ferry services in this Province do a tremendous job.

As a matter of fact, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, the Member

for Terra Nova and I, last summer, went across to St. Brendan's Island. As a

matter of fact, we went across on that old vessel, the old relic that the

Opposition continuously refers to. If we listened to them, our ferries in

Newfoundland are falling apart and they are not fit to be on, and all that sort

of stuff, but that is the Opposition and I guess that is your role, to paint a

bleak picture of what is happening in Newfoundland and Labrador, which is not

very, very accurate.

The minister and I traveled across on the ferry to St. Brendan's Island,

the Greenbay Transport , which is one of the older vessels in our fleet

that provides services to the people of St. Brendan's. As a matter of fact, I

was really, really impressed with the service that was provided to this island

by this older vessel and I made a comment to the crew and the captain how

impressed I was with the service, and how impressed I was with how it was

maintained. As a matter of fact, the vessel was so well kept and so clean that

you could actually eat off the floor. It was an older vessel but it was well

run, well equipped. As a matter of fact, we sailed across in the nighttime. When

we landed back on the mainland I said to the captain: I would like to go on this

vessel for another fifteen or twenty hours because it was such a pleasant trip.

When we hear the Opposition talking about the old relics that we have, these

vessels are well maintained. The system of our ferries within this Province go

through very rigorous inspections by CSI and they have to go in for their annual

refits. Only when they meet the strict guidelines that are set out by Transport

Canada are they in operation. The picture is not nearly as bad as painted my

critic and by the Opposition members.

When we talk about the major breakdowns, and all the breakdowns on the

ferries in Newfoundland and Labrador, up to the present time there have been

only five breakdowns on the ferries in this Province, in this twelve month

period. There have been only five breakdowns on the ferries. As a matter of

fact, for the information of members, I think only one of our older vessels had

a breakdown and that is the one that goes to Little Bay Islands. There was one

breakdown on that particular ferry this year, and that was it. But in terms of a

mechanical breakdown, there were only five mechanical breakdowns. Believe it or

not, when we hear this great story about our old vessels and they are always

broken down, the ones that we had the mechanical difficulties on this year were

not our older vessels but were the ones that were built. We had two mechanical

breakdowns on the Flanders , and we had mechanical breakdowns on the Beaumont

Hamel , which are the newer vessels within our fleet. There have been

interruptions in service to Bell Island. A lot of those interruptions had

nothing to do with the vessels themselves but had to do with weather conditions.

The hon. Member for Cape St. Francis can introduce this resolution, and I

consider it to be a very important resolution. I consider it to be a very

important resolution for the people from the forty communities in Newfoundland

and Labrador that depend on our ferry service. If he wants to make a joke out of

it and laugh about it then that is entirely up to him, but the minister takes

the service that we provide to the people of Little Bay Islands, St. Brendan's

and all the other communities in Newfoundland, as a very serious business. We

have a very dedicated staff and very dedicated people trying to provide the

service. As a matter of fact, this government has bent over backwards.

I want you to believe that some of these communities that we operate those

ferry services into are people that are the lifeblood of Newfoundland and

Labrador. They are the primary industries. They service communities that have

fish plants; Little Bay Islands, Gaultois, and these communities. Not only that,

but they are providing new dollars into the economy. They are very economically

viable communities and we are very interested in providing them a service. As a

matter of fact, last spring I met with the managers and the people in Little Bay

Islands. The fish plant is very important to that community. The department put

on extra runs and we also put on extra shifts to make sure that the workers were

able to get back and forth to Little Bay Islands to work in that very viable

industry and in the fish plants. So this service is a very important service and

the government is well aware that some of our fleet are older. If you want to do

a comparison with other jurisdictions, the average age of vessels - the B.C.

ferries, for example, the average age of their vessels is between thirty and

thirty-five years. In the U.S., including the Washington State ferry system,

most of their ferries are within thirty to thirty-five years of age. So the age

of the vessel does not necessarily mean that there is anything wrong with the

vessel, but we have strict guidelines in terms of inspections and that sort of

thing, that these vessels need to go through.

I want to remind hon. members that this government did have a vessel

replacement program. Now the previous government had a vessel replacement

program, and back in the 1980s they built the Beaumond Hamel and the Gallipoli .

They financed them through Xerox and Canada Trust. The criticism I made in a

speech to the House was that at the time the government gave the impression that

these boats were built in Marystown, financed by the government, and paid for

outright. They also announced the construction of the Bell Island Flanders at

the end of their term, but that particular ferry was built during the Liberal

Government, when we came in power in 1989. The actual boat itself was built

during that time. The Liberal Government at the time did not finance that

particular boat but paid cash for it, at that particular time, and did not go

through the financial arrangements with Xerox and Canada Trust as the previous

government had done.

What I was saying at the time was that the people of the Province should have

been informed about what was happening. I was not against the way it was

financed, but at the time they created the impression that these vessels were

built in Marystown, paid for, and were not financed in any way. That is the

criticism I had of it, that the government of the day was saying that they were

building these boats. As a matter of fact, some of these boats built at that

particular time - the Beaumont Hamel, for example, was built without any

consultation from the Department of Works, Services and Transportation, and when

we put it on the Fogo Island run it was not compatible for that particular run.

I can assure you that any vessel replacement that this government has will

have the full support, the full consultation, and will work with the Department

of Works, Services and Transportation to make sure that when we do have a vessel

replacement program that it will fit the criteria of the vessels that are in our

particular fleet.

There is no doubt about it, and I would be the first to admit, and I am sure

that over the next period of time, as things unfold, we need a replacement for

the Inch Arran, which is the ferry down in Little Bay Islands. We need a

replacement for that particular vessel, and hopefully within the next year or

so, and probably less than the next year or so, there probably will be a new

replacement for the Inch Arran in Little Bay Islands, which is very, very

important to the people of that particular part of the Province.

The other one that we need a replacement for, and the one that I sailed on -

and it was a great vessel; I had a great ride on it, it was a beautiful vessel

and it was a very clean and tidy vessel - is the Greenbay Transport ,

which is an older wooden vessel and needs to be replaced. Hopefully, over the

next period of time, as we unveil our vessel replacement program, they are

probably two of the vessels that we will need to replace in the system.

When the Opposition and our critics say that the vessels are run down and

they not operating, we have a very, very good record. We transported roughly

750,000 passengers and 360,000 vehicles last year, and some of these vessels are

operating continuously. I go to Portugal Cove quite frequently and observe what

is happening on the Bell Island-Portugal Cove run. These ferries do not stop at

all. The engines never stop. They load up, go to Bell Island, come back, and

they never stop going; continuously going.

Those of us who grew up in rural Newfoundland, and those of us who grew up on

the islands in rural Newfoundland, know that when you operate a boat so

frequently, they have engines and there are bound to be mechanical problems.

In addition to the vessels that are on the regular run, we have two swing

vessels which can be put into operation at any time when one of the other

vessels break down. We have them strategically located around the Province to

make sure that, if one of the vessels break down, the Inch Arran or one

of the other vessels happen to break down, within a short period of time one of

the other vessels are on the move to replace the vessel that just broke down.

One of the problems that we had last year, for example, on the Bell Island

run was that we had the Flanders into Marystown for its annual refit and

then one of our swing vessels developed mechanical problems and left us with

just one vessel with one thruster to operate out of Bell Island and Portugal

Cove, and then we had high wind conditions and tides which prevented the ferry

from operating on schedule.

I recently met the hon. Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island.

Only last week we met with the Ferry Users Committee on Bell Island and we had a

very, very productive meeting. Since I have been the minister, I have had a

number of meetings with the Bell Island Ferry Users Committee. We sit down from

time to time and we try to make the service much more efficient, much more

effective, and much more accountable for the people on Bell Island. I must say

that the relationship that we have with the Ferry Users Committee on Bell Island

is tremendous. As a matter of fact, I am sure that when we hear it from the

Budget, when we hear what the vessel replacement program is going to be over the

next period of time, that the people on Little Bay Island, St. Brendan's,

Gaultois - as a matter of fact, we have a problem in Gaultois. We have a fish

plant in Gaultois that is employing some 120-odd people. We have one of the

private vessels operating now to Gaultois, but we need a roll-on roll-off

service. Last year we were able to provide the Sound of Islay there on a

needs basis, to be able to let that fish plant operate and provide the

much-needed jobs that are needed in Gaultois.

This department works very, very well with the users groups in these various

communities. As a matter of fact, the number of calls that we receive to the

office about the ferry services, and to the minister's office, is very few. We

have to realize that since 1993, since the shutdown of the cod fishery in

Newfoundland and Labrador, this government has gone through a difficult time. To

be able to provide the basic services to people of Newfoundland in terms of

health care and in terms of education. We are probably a few years behind in

terms of our vessel replacement program but I think, as a government, we have

made the right decisions in terms of being able to provide more money for health

care, more money for education, and now, as you will see in the next period of

time, the time to improve our transportation infrastructure in the Province of

Newfoundland and Labrador has arrived, and I am sure over the next period of

time you will see our plans as we look at our vessel replacement program.

We will be in Happy Valley-Goose Bay on Friday to announce a new marine

service, more effective. We will be providing the best service ever coming up in

the next year or so to the people of Labrador. As a matter of fact, I am very,

very proud to be going to Labrador next Friday to announce a new marine service

for the people of Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. BARRETT: It will be the best service. As a matter of fact, over the

last year or so, working with the members in Labrador, we had two committees set

up, one on the south coast of Labrador and one on the north coast of Labrador. I

visit these communities. I have sat down with these committees. As a matter of

fact, what we will be announcing in Labrador on Friday is a service that will be

made in Labrador, for the people of Labrador. The people of Nain and those

communities will have a better marine service than they have ever had in their

history; second to none. This government will be very proud to announce the main

transportation initiatives that we have come up with, in consultation with the

people of Labrador, that will serve them for a long time to come.

Mr. Speaker, I have a problem with the resolution as it is worded. I sat in

Question Period today and listened to the Opposition, and I have sat here for

the last number of days, and the Opposition were up talking about this

government as being fiscally irresponsible. Well, if we pass this resolution

today I think that this House would be fiscally irresponsible. So I am proposing

an amendment to this resolution.

AN HON. MEMBER: What?

MR. BARRETT: Yes. Actually, most of the WHEREASs does not mean anything

anyway. The resolution is what is at the end. Those of us who have been in the

House for awhile know that the WHEREASs are more of a nuisance rather than any

substance to a resolution.

THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that this Honourable House call upon the provincial

government to implement a vessel replacement policy of constructing new ferries

at shipyards in Newfoundland and Labrador instead of purchasing vessels from

outside the Province "provided that it is fiscally competitive to do

so".

I think as the government, and the person responsible for the taxpayers money

in this Province, we have to put in this resolution.

AN HON. MEMBER: Not any more.

MR. BARRETT: This government is fiscally responsible, despite what the

Leader of the Opposition and all those members on the opposite side may be

saying over the last period of time. We want to put in this resolution to make

sure that - we have to be competitive. Under the Public Tender Act, we have to

make sure that it is fiscally competitive.

Mr. Speaker, I propose an amendment to this resolution by adding the words

"provided that it is fiscally competitive to do so". I submit to Your

Honour the amendment.

MR. SULLIVAN: (Inaudible) analysis shows that it is (inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair will consult with the House Officers to see if the amendment is in

order.

MR. BARRETT: Sure.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Windsor-Springdale.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HUNTER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to give support to the resolution by my colleague from Cape St.

Francis. Mr. Speaker, some of us in this Legislature have ferries in our

district. I am one of those MHAs who has to deal with a ferry service pretty

well on a regular basis. I see, from time to time, how important it is to have

something that is very reliable and on

schedule so that the people in those

communities, serviced by the ferries, can plan their lives; can make it to

appointments on time; to give their children the opportunity to compete and to

avail of services outside of the island that they live on.

Mr. Speaker, sometimes we forget how good it is to have the services that we

have until we see and talk to people that are serviced by a ferry, who have to

make other arrangements and do without services for their children and for their

seniors to get to appointments and to get the necessities of life outside the

communities and islands that live on. The island that I am talking about is Long

Island, which has three communities, basically, Beaumont, Beaumont North and

Lushes Bight. Even though it is a small population it is still important that we

deliver the same service to them that we would to any other island with a bigger

population. Even though the population is small on that island there is still a

great deal of cost to deliver that service. From information that I have

gathered over the past two years dealing with this situation it costs

approximately $1 million a year to operate that service and do the necessary

retrofits and repairs to keep that service going.

Two years ago, Mr. Speaker, I was told by a committee on that island that

this government supported to have that ferry taken out of service and a causeway

built to the island. Since then there was a lot of lip service done, a lot of

support from different MPs, premiers and ministers saying that they were going

to do this project, but up to date this project is not in sight, as far as I

know. Last year the government committed $2 million in the Budget to put towards

this project, which is roughly a 20 per cent amount to the project, with

agreement that the federal government would pay the other 80 per cent. At the

time the MP for that riding guaranteed people in that district that the federal

government would provide 80 per cent of the money for that project if the

provincial government would come onside with their 20 per cent. Since then,

after many meetings with different ministers and the Premier, the provincial

government has decided to support it. I believe they committed to support it

because they knew that they could not get the money from the federal government

on the 80 per cent that the MP at the time promised.

Since that time, Mr. Speaker, there has been a leadership race in that party.

Different leader contenders went to that island and made a commitment to the

people of Long Island that they would support and do everything in their power

to have that causeway done in the very near future. Even the former Premier was

out there and said to the people of Long Island that if he was in a position in

the federal government then that project would be done; absolutely nothing

standing in the way to stop that project from going ahead. Since that time, Mr.

Speaker, the former Premier was in a position in the federal government to do

something about it. He decided that he did not want to get involved. He was not

going to get involved and the project is still not done. The commitment is still

not there.

I spoke to the minister many times about this project and he met with the

committee many times. A commitment was made by the minister and I congratulate

him for being involved and meeting with the committee and myself, but I think it

is time now that the provincial government took this project on itself, to do

the full project even though it may cost close to $14 million. By doing that, it

would eliminate one ferry for this Province. The money that could be saved over

the long term could be used for other ferry replacements and the ferry

replacement program.

If we take this seriously enough, and we look at it in the long term, then

the jobs that we could create from building ferries in this Province is

unbelievable, the amount of spinoff and the amount of jobs that could come out

of this replacement program for this Province.

Mr. Speaker, by replacing this ferry on Long Island with a causeway, then

that causeway would give opportunities to the people of Long Island to avail of

school outings, and benefits for the children on Long Island to get involved in

sports off the island, because the island is not big enough to have all the

facilities that other parts of the Province have, and it is very costly. It is

$4 per person to get off the island to attend even a stadium, to be involved in

minor hockey or any other sports off the island.

We have to look at the aspects of the benefits of not only replacing ferries

that are old and dilapidated, but the benefits of increasing tourism in the

Province, making life a lot easier for our seniors and our children, making this

Province more acceptable to our own people to go from one place to another, even

though it has to avail of a ferry service. The people of Bell Island could

certainly be more happy with a service that is on a more constant basis, and a

scheduled basis, as other islands in this Province, Mr. Speaker.

The Green Bay area already has so many causeways. In the past years, there

have been causeways built to Pilley's Island, Port Anson, Miles Cove, Triton

Island, to Brighton and Triton. To complete that link in the Green Bay area, we

need one more causeway, the causeway to Long Island, that would complete the

link of all the towns and communities in the Green Bay South area. This would

certainly enhance tourism for the Green Bay South area. The millions of dollars

that this government can save in the long run can certainly be spent even on

roads or other vessels, and the people of Long Island will not have to put up

with different problems that ferry services give to island people.

In the past year we have seen many problems, even though the minister says it

was not a lot of problems, but there are some problems and interruptions in

services. Last year there were two ferries tied up because of a chain break to

an anchor. The ferry from Little Bay Island and the ferry from Long Island were

tied up for a day or so and the people on both islands were very nervous because

of the problem that they would have in getting off the island in emergency

situations. Even some people had to miss appointments with specialists, so this

is a very important issue for people who live on islands serviced by ferries.

I know, even though paint covers up a lot of the bad looking parts of a ferry

- because I have worked on some of our ferries on this Island for a number of

years in my business, particularly the ones in the central Green Bay area and

Change Islands, Fogo Island. I worked on all those ferries over the years. I

have been from top to bottom and front to back, and I have seen a lot of

problems on the ferries. They are kept running alright, but it is time that we

get a ferry replacement policy, something that is going to replace the older

vessels even though some people believe that they are in good shape and they

perform well. Most of the time they do, but we cannot afford to have a time when

the ferry is not in service, and not supplying the service to our people in this

Province.

Mr. Speaker, the jobs that are created, even though it might be a bit more

expensive to build these ferries in the Province, it is important that we

support our own industries in this Province. It is important that we take the

money that we do have for any vessel replacement services in this Province and

spend it in our own Province, because the taxes that we get back and the

spinoffs and the money returning to government, after a period of time, is a lot

greater than what we are going to get by giving some other province or other

country millions of dollars to build ferries for our people.

The reason the minister gave to support the amendment to the resolution is

not a good reason, in my point of view. I believe, even though it may cost more,

we should avail of the expertise that we have in this Province, the expert

facilities that we have. We have good facilities in Marystown, and the

expertise; we can do this job here in this Province. Mr. Speaker, I think this

resolution is fine just the way it is. Let's use our people to build our

ferries.

Mr. Speaker, the causeway committee of Long Island have done their own

projected feasibility and design. After government said that it was not

feasible, the causeway committee in Long Island proved to this government that

it is feasible to build that causeway to Long Island. It is a pretty good

in-depth study, professionally done. It cost a lot of money to do this study,

and I think that now this government should take it seriously enough; not only

commit $2 million in the Budget, but commit the full capital cost of doing this

project. Let's get it out of the way. Let's get it done, provide that

service. One ferry gone out of the system where, over the long term, millions of

dollars could be saved to spend on other members' roads, other members'

ferries. When that is done, down the road, in many years, probably it could be

used in health care and education.

This government should be fiscally responsible in long-term planning, not

just for today -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HUNTER: - but long-term planning where we can see where we can get

the best bang for the buck on projects like this one in Long Island.

Mr. Speaker, I am going to sit down and give my colleagues a few minutes to

have something to say on it, but I do encourage the government and the minister

to get more involved in the Long Island causeway project and see this project

done as soon as possible.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin-Placentia West.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS M. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I certainly thank the hon. Member for Cape St.

Francis for bringing this resolution forward, especially since this is something

that I have lobbied aggressively for; and I thank the minister for acting on my

request.

I was certainly elated, Mr. Speaker, to hear in the Speech from the Throne

yesterday, that government will be initiating a new vessel replacement and

refurbishment program, on a cost-effective basis, to address the needs of our

ferry operations.

Of course, Mr. Speaker, my interest, as a member representing a district so

greatly dependant on the shipbuilding industry, is more closely related to the

construction of vessels. I feel certain that my hon. colleague for Cartwright-L'Anse

au Clair shares my delight, for this is something that we have both lobbied for,

each, of course, with a different agenda, but each complementing the other. The

hon. member needs the service for her district, and I, of course, have the

facilities and the workforce to supply these vessels in Marystown.

Mr. Speaker, I cannot speak on this resolution without relating it to one of

my main industries, the shipyard in Marystown. As most hon. members are aware,

my district is dependant on two main industries, the Marystown Shipyard and the

two FPI plants, the facility in Marystown and the FPI secondary processing plant

in Burin. All other businesses in the area, Mr. Speaker, are dependant on the

survival of those two industries. If the Burin Peninsula is to grow and prosper,

Mr. Speaker, it is necessary to have both operating for the greater part of the

calendar year.

Mr. Speaker, we all know that the history of shipbuilding in our Province,

indeed in our country, has been one of peaks and valleys, one of bust and boom.

Unfortunately, the last year has been another rock bottom for my area, and we

have sadly witnessed a major decline in our population, as people left their

homes to find employment in other parts of Canada and the United States. It is

easy to be critical, Mr. Speaker, but the actual fact is, no matter which

political party governed, despite everyone's best efforts, there always has

been those lows and highs.

When the yard was owned and operated by government, Mr. Speaker, there were

continuous complaints from the rest of the Province. Government were

continuously reminded that they had lacked the expertise to run such an

industry. The taxpayers in our Province were continuously complaining about the

continuous infusion of funds into the shipyard. The solution seemed to be a

strong entrepreneurial operation with marketing expertise to seek out work on a

variety of borders; locally, nationally and internationally, on a commercial

basis.

To reflect for just a moment, Mr. Speaker, on the history of the yard in

Marystown. That shipyard was built in the late 1960s to complement the need for

the building of trawlers for FPI or Atlantic Fish, as it was called at that

time. However, the moratorium in the early 1990s brought with it the need to

diversify. As a result, Mr. Speaker, the federal and provincial governments

invested over $40 million to establish the Cow Head Offshore Fabrication Centre

that continues to allow the yard to pursue new business opportunities in the

offshore oil and gas industry.

The result, Mr. Speaker, was a state-of-the-art facility with a multi-trade

workforce second to none in the entire world. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, any

entrepreneur's dream. When Friede Goldman came on the scene in 1997, it

appeared to everyone to be the ultimate solution. Everyone, Mr. Speaker, the

media, the unions, government, did a fair amount of investigating into the

company and everyone believed that the company was in there for the long term.

After all, this was one of the biggest companies of its kind in the world at

that time. Its shares were something in the area of $47 a share and were

expected to rise to even in the $70s per share.

In the first year of operation some 1,150 workers were employed at the yard

in Marystown, the most ever in the yard's history. But, Mr. Speaker, as it has

been proven many times in our history even the best of companies can take a

fall. As we know, the parent company of FGN, Friede Goldman Halter took a

downturn eventually going into bankruptcy protection. Mr. Speaker, this

situation has caused untold grief to the workforce in Marystown, to the Local 20

union that represent them, to the local management of FGN, to the entire

business community, to the Chamber of Commerce, the municipal councils on the

Burin Peninsula, as well, to our government and indeed, to me personally as the

MHA representing that district.

These past few months have been frustrating for us all as we worked with the

company on a number of restructuring options, with the executive of Local 20,

meeting with other companies that expressed an interest in securing the facility

and trying to find ways and means of helping our workers through this downturn.

Despite our best efforts, Mr. Speaker, employment opportunities remained very

limited, with the major project for last year being the environmental cleanup of

the yard. That project employed about 200 workers for a four month period. That,

Mr. Speaker, combined with a little refit on a couple of vessels kept the gates

opened, but just barely.

Just recently, Mr. Speaker, the yard was awarded a contract for the annual

refit of the Captain Earl W. Winsor at a price of something like $273,

000 and this work is expected to be completed some time around mid-April.

Mr. Speaker, I believe that most people are aware by now that there is a very

reputable company genuinely interested in securing the FGN facility. If all goes

as planned this will hopefully bring much needed employment to Marystown later

this year but we will need something to tie us over for the next five or six

months. Our major refurbishment at this time would certainly be welcomed.

Mr. Speaker, I met with Wayne Butler and other executive members of Local 20

as late as this past weekend. I have to highly commend them for their untiring

efforts on behalf of the yard workers that they represent. The truth is,

negotiations have been of such a highly sensitive nature that these people could

not get on the airways for free of jeopardizing the future of that facility. I

certainly commend them for holding in there and dealing with these issues in

such a very professional manner. There is one thing though, Mr. Speaker, that I

can assure the shipyard workers in my district, I have worked closely with your

executive and they have represented you well.

Again, Mr. Speaker, hopefully we will soon have something positive to report.

Right now, every passing day is a lifetime for those who wait and for those who

represent them. Mr. Speaker, never in the history of the shipyard facility in

Marystown has there been a greater need for employment. The construction of a

new ferry or certainly some major refurbishing at this time would certainly

enhance the opportunities for our many skilled work force who have been

deliberating which move to make next. We need employment in Marystown, Mr.

Speaker, and we need it now. Many have left the area and others are about to

leave. These people have held on as long as possible but their EI funds are

running out and it is a matter of survival.

There is always one person, I guess, that needs a special word of mention and

in this case I would like to speak about a person who has done a tremendous role

through all of this. This gentleman, Heber Pike in Marystown, is a really good

friend of mine and a former colleague during my years on council. He was also a

former manager of the shipyard in Marystown and is now employed with a company

called (inaudible) in the United States. Heber has known the workforce in

Marystown for a long time through working with them. His company has been

providing employment for several of our skilled workforce over the years, the

last couple of years in places like Trinidad and various US states. These

workers have been employed on various contracts, have made good money, and as a

result allowed their families to maintain their homes in the Marystown area.

Since these people have worked away from the area rather than move away, it

ensures a local workforce will also be available once the services are required

at the yard once again.

Back again to the issue of building ferries, Mr. Speaker. The fact of the

matter is, had government been in a position to build a ferry or ferries, up to

this point, it certainly would have been done. Construction certainly has not

been put on hold due to any lack of lobbying or any good intent. There is no

argument against building ferries in this Province. Everyone agrees there was a

real need to replace our ferries and an attempt to do so just as soon as such

funding can be made available. To this point in time the funding just has not

been available.

The member stated in his resolution the life of a ferry, according to the

Auditor General's Report - and I might add from other reliable sources that I

have spoken with - is approximately twenty-five years. In fact, the Government

of Newfoundland and Labrador manages a fleet of twenty-one ferry vessels, which

operate sixteen routes throughout the Province. Last year we transported 725,000

passengers, 360,000 vehicles, and made 20,000 round trips. Our fleet is the

second largest ferry fleet in the entire country. The provincial government owns

twelve of the twenty-one vessels providing ferry service to the people of this

Province, and the average age of government owned vessels is actually 24.4

years. As the minister stated earlier, this compares to thirty to thirty-five

years being the average age of ferry vessels in B.C. and the US, including the

Washington state system.

In this Province provincial ferries are the primary mode of transportation

for many communities and it is our responsibility to ensure that those dependent

on this service are provided with the most effective service possible. Our

government is doing everything that they can possibly do to ensure that this

service meets those standards and is not interrupted. However, from time to time

there are situations beyond anyone's control. Last year I guess we were

fortunate in experiencing only four unexpected breakdowns.

Mr. Speaker, we do have regulations and policies in place concerning our

ferries. In conjunction with two regulatory bodies, Lloyds of London, a vessel

classification association with CAI, a division of Transport Canada, all ferries

undergo an annual refit. Every two years or sooner, all vessels are removed from

the water and placed on dry dock to inspect the hull, shafts and propellers, and

conduct any necessary repairs as well. No vessel sails, Mr. Speaker, unless they

hold an operating certificate from CIS. Mr. Speaker, every fifteen to twenty

years, a vessel will undergo a mid-life refit. Some major work at this point

includes ultrasound testing of the hull, and necessary repairs, as well as the

vessel's superstructure.

Mr. Speaker, the Flanders, one of the three vessels built in Marystown

in 1990, had necessary repairs totaling $300,000 to $400,000 done in Marystown

last year. It is notable, as the minister already stated, Mr. Speaker, that the Flanders

is the only one of the three vessels that was financed and owned by government.

The other two vessels: the Beaumont Hamel was built in 1985 for Canada

Trust Company and is leased by the government with a twenty-year buyback

agreement; and the Gallipoli , constructed in 1986, continues to be owned

by Xerox; again, a twenty-year lease/buyback agreement.

Mr. Speaker, I have checked the cost of building ferries several times, and

it is expected to be somewhere in the area of $20 million. That would be for a

vessel somewhat similar to the Captain Earl Winsor . That particular

vessel was purchased from the federal government for $300,000 and was completely

refurbished.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

It has been brought to the Chair's attention that people are having

difficulty hearing the speaker. There seems to be much too much chatter in the

Chamber. If members would, while the member is speaking....

MS M. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, that particular vessel was purchased from the federal government

for $300,000 and was completely refurbished for $3 million in Marystown. We are

all very much aware that the cost of purchasing overseas is substantially less

than the cost involved in building at home; yet, Mr. Speaker, that should never

be an option. Whether or not we decide to build or lease, we have to ensure that

the vessels we operate are built in this Province.

Mr. Speaker, I am certain my colleagues on this side of the House are very

aware of the return benefits to our economy derived from building at home:

return benefits and revenues through income tax, payroll tax, HST, and secondary

industry created as a result of the operation of this major industry. I realize

that, as a government, we have had to balance many priorities. Mr. Speaker,

marine services needs have to be balanced with the needs for health care,

education and other social and economic programs in our Province.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, there is a chance and we are hopeful that we are going

to be in a position to do something about the ferry fleet in our Province. Mr.

Speaker, we have assessed our fleet and know what work needs to be done on each

and every vessel. We have established our priorities and know what needs to be

addressed first.

Mr. Speaker, I realize that government has to look at a policy that is

flexible, and allow us to keep our options open, but I maintain that to

construct or refurbish outside of this Province would not be an option. I agree

with a cost-benefit analysis to show that we are fiscally responsible, but the

real benefit to this Province is to retain our workforce and have our work done

here at home.

Again, I thank the hon. Member for Cape St. Francis for bringing this

resolution forward.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the Member for Baie Verte, the Chair

would just like to inform the House that the amendment as brought forward by the

Minister of Works, Service and Transportation is in order, and that the

resolution is therefore amended by adding immediately after the word Province,

provided that it is fiscally competitive to do so.

The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I am certainly delighted today, to stand and support this motion put forward

by my colleague for Cape St. Francis. Mr. Speaker, in this House of Assembly for

a number of years, this side of the House, our party, has espoused what they

thought should be done a long time ago. As a matter of fact, we think it is long

overdue. So, we are delighted that the government has at least hinted to a

policy that will finally address something that is long overdue.

I have to make some reference to a few points that the minister made when he

was on his feet. First off the bat, I can tell him that I, too, travel the ferry

system in this Province. In my district, of course, Little Bay Islands has

become famous when it comes to the ferry system, and the history of that

particular island and what it has contributed to this Province. I think, if I am

not mistaken - and the Minister of Fisheries or maybe our critic for Fisheries

can tell me - I believe that the Little Bay Islands plant had the second crab

licence ever in this Province, so the history of that community goes back a long

way where it has contributed to the economy of this Province and had some very

prosperous years. That particular ferry system to that island, like so many

other parts of this Province, is critical and crucial to survival and, of

course, any economic development that may happen on the island portion.

When you look at the statistics on inter-ferry service in this Province and

see, as the member before me has spoken of, over forty islands and isolated

communities in this Province. Forty communities have over 30,000 in population

and the numbers, Mr. Speaker - the Bell Island ferry service, which is over 50

per cent of all the provincial traffic in this Province.

It goes back in history. As you look at the coast of our Province, and where

our communities are spread along the coast, we also see the geography and how it

has affected so many people in this Province. It is their lifeline. I agree with

the minister when he says, when you go on one of these runs and you talk to the

crew - I always do, talk to the captain. I know many of my colleagues who travel

on these ferries go and talk to the crew to see what it feels like, to get a

flavor, really, of what their day-to-day jobs are like.

It is true, when you look at a particular boat, paint can do a lot, as the

Member for Windsor-Springdale said earlier. The real truth behind a good ferry,

a good boat, is to see if the motor is running properly. That is what most

people tell me is most important, that it is going to be reliable.

Mr. Speaker, I look back at some press releases over the last few years. Go

back to 1999, when the community of Harbour Deep was in my district. It is now

in the district of the Member for Humber Valley. I have traveled there on the

ferry service many times. Just a year or so ago, maybe two years ago - I cannot

remember the exact date - when they had a very close call with that ferry

service, when there was a full load of students on the boat, it went adrift for

hours. There were some very tense moments for the people in that community.

Then again last year, Mr. Speaker, the community of Little Bay Islands, a

situation with the plant and so on. It also was their civic holiday when we had

a breakdown of the Inch Arran . The minister spoke of the Inch Ar