PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number45 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, APRIL 24,1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

Apr1J. .tlf 1 1~1u, ·.rape bUS 1 l'age 1 -- apb The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker, in the Chair: HON. J.R.SMALLWOOD (Premier): Mr. Speaker. in behalf of all bon. members I should like to express a word of very cordial welcome to some fifty students who are here today in the galleries, fifty students of grade VIII 1 two seperate classes of grade VIII students in Holy Cross in St. John's. They are with two of their teachers, Mr. Dunphy and Mr. Foley. We are very glad that they did come to visit us today. I do not know how it is arranged Mr. Speaker.

I ~ave no idea how the arrangement is made for the visit of the students. and the order in which they come. These fifty students from Holy Cross are here today. and if they had been here yesterday. not so much yesterday as the day before and the day before, Tuesday and Wednesday of this week they might have found the proceedings a lot more interesting and perhaps a little more exciting than they are likely to be here today. However 1 that is the way it goes. It is not always the same every day, some days are more intensely interesting than others, and I can hope that they will be interested in their visit today.

I believe this being private members day, that the resolution from the bon. the member for St. Barbe South will be debated, and this is the subject of the national park,proposed park Gros~Morne~ on the West Coast of our island. This is a tremendously interesting subject, and I do hope that all our visitors will find it extremely interesting. I want to express a very special word of welcome indeed, very special, very cordial, and very special word of welcome to one of the most distinguished Newfoundlanders we have with us in this whole Province today.

A man who will go down in Newfoundland history as one of the great names in our history, a name, the only name we have ever had in Newfoundland in the medical field who earned the right to be ranked with Grenfell, and that is of course Dr. John Olds, who has spent forty year, forty years in Newfoundland practising medicine at Twillingate. Through his hands, untold thousands of Newfoundlanders have passed, and received medical attention and surgery, and he has become a tradition in Newfoundland. A name that will never die, Dr. John Olds.

He has just arrived in the city today from Ottawa where at the hands of the Governor- 2710

Apr:u "' .. , ! 'J IU, ·.rape b to, l' age t. -- apb General of our nation he has had the ·Service Medal of Canada conferred on him. A great honour, the nation of Canada, this great country of Canada through the highest authorities have seen fit to honour him with the Service Medal. Dr.

Olds is still extremely energetic, practising medicine, running that great hospital in Twillingate, still unhappy I think, in fact I am sure, unhappy because we have not built the Twillingate Hospital bigger than it is, and have not spared the money to make it better than it is physically speaking and from the stand point of space and facilities in it. But we had lunch together today with the President of the Council who represents that famous district of Twillingate in this House, and a distinguished citizen from Twillingate who accompanied him Mr.

Herbert Jillett and we have had talks, the four of us about ways and means of perhaps overcoming this financial problem in connection with the enlarging and improving of the physical facilities, not the service because, I do not know how that could be improved under the hands of a distinguished doctor and surgeon and a distinguished staff that he has been successful in attracting to Twillingate. 1 know that I speak for the House when I express our thanks, the thanks of this House, and the thanks of Newfoundland to a great man, to a great Newfoundlander, a Hewfoundlander who choose to be a Newfoundlander.

A Newfoundlander by choice, the thanks of this House and the thanks of the Newfounfland people for the marvelous work of a great man. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to join with the bon. Premier and with the rest of the House, in the first instance to welcome the pupils from Holy Cross School, 1 was a little surprised that the Premier had not been an ex-pupil of that school, but I suppose he could not attend them all ~ After all he was only in school to a certain age.

I would like to welcome all these young gentlemen to the House, and to hope that their stay here will be pleasant, they will enjoy what they see, and get some information as to how the House operates. This House has been called many things, but 1 have never heard it classed as an information centre. Nevertheless we are here to do the business of the people we do it to the best of our ability and we trust that today will be no exception. Aa the Premier has mentioned today is private members day, and 2711

perhaps the item we Will be discussing will he very important to an awful lot of people. It may not be of much interest to others, but we trust that it will get full discussion. In addition Mr. Speaker, I am highly honoured and highly privileged~ to join in the welcome to a very great and distinguished gentleman in the person of Doctor Olds.

I have not had the privilege to meet the gentleman, but by reputation I might say that over my readings over they years, among all the people in whatever service they served in this great Province of our, I think Doctor Olds ttame will go down in our history as being on of the greatest contributors to the health and the welfare of so many of our citizens. I am sure MR. SMALLWOOD (J.R.): Would the hon. gentleman allow me the honour to introduce him and Doctor Olds here today? I would like to do that. MR.

MURPHY: I would consider that a great favour Sir, unfortunately the Premier did not think of it before lunch time, I might have had a free meal. But, in continuing, I am sure that the great tribute and honour paid on our wonderful Doctor is only too well deserved, and that in receiving that honou~we, all of us here in this Province of ours, join in our very sincere congratulations and trust that he will be spared to carry on the work that he has accomplished over a great number of years, for many more years to come. And I say that Mr.

Speaker, quite sincerely, because as I say, gentlemen like Doctor Olds are very few and far between today. Men who have dedicated themselves to the service of their fellow citizens and for the good and the betterment of their community. MR. CROSBIE:Mr. Speaker, I Mould also like to welcome the students from Holy Cross School, and hope that they will hear some interesting discussion today on the Bonne Bay park. I have had the good luck Mr. Speaker, of meeting Doctor Olds, and the first time I met him was when I visited Twillingate, as Minister of Health to speak •• to the Twillingate Chamber of Commerce.

I was just about to deliver my speech that night following dinner when the Government building in Twillingate caught fire, Everybody deserted the hall, actually I was pleased to find out that they were tearing off to go to a fire, I thought they were tearing off 2712

April 24, 1970, Tape 618, Page 4 -- apb because they did not want to hear my speech. But they had a very seveu&fire that night, and the rest o~ the night was spent fighting the fire. We certainly join in congratulating Doctor Olds on this recognition of his great service to Newfoundland and the nGrth-east coast. All over the Province there are people who are proud to say that they were operated on by Doctor Olds, or that Doctor Olds had cut them up. Of course he always sews them back together again, that is the great advantage of being a doctor. When you cut somebody up you can sew them back together again.

Doctor Olds was a medical pioneer in Newfoundland when there were very few Doctors, particularly in our out-harbour areas, and he has made a great contribution to life in Newfoundland for the safety and health of our citizens. I certainly hope Mr. Speaker, that the Government will be able to arrange the funds or find the funds to renovate or rebuild the Notre Dame Bay Memorial Hospital at Twillingate. That is badly needed, and although they .. are performing a fine service, they could perform a much better one if they now had a modern building and equipment.

We are all sympathic with the fact that it is not easy to come by money these days, even for such worthy purposes; but we hope the Government will be able to help this year in Twillingate. Once again Mr. Speaker, we are delighted to welcome Doctor Olds, and we hope that he will go on for many years to come in this great service he is performing in Twillingate on the north-east coast. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to welcome myself, Senator Daniel Laing, who is in the Speaker's gallery from Ottawa.

Senator Laing is a Liberal Senator in Ottawa from To~onto, a distinguished lawyer and a partner in the firm of Laing, Mitchner. Governor General Mitchner was once senior partner of that firm with Senator Laing's father. He is down visiting the Province and will be visiting Gander tomorrow for certain purposes which I would not mention in the Bouse, because we do not wish to discuss renegading in the House today. MR. MURPHY: No politics, no please MR. CID.SBIE: We do not want to introduce politics in the House today, but I would like to welcome Senator Laing here and I hope he will find us an interesting 2713

April 24 0 1970. Tape 618, Page 5 -- apb comparison between procedure in our House, and that in the Senate in Ottawa. MR. ABBOTT: Mr. Speaker. having known Doctor Olds longer than any other member of this House. I should like to associate my-remarks with other speakers. I have worked with Doctor Olds, not in the operating room. but I did work with him on the board of directors of the hospital association for ten years at Tw1111ngate.

Now it wes during the war, World War II. during the depression which preceded :_ World War II,and .dur:fngWorld War II,I know how hard Doctor Olds worked when doctors were not very plentiful either in Newfoundland or in Canada, or indeed in the United States. Because, at that time most doctors were called up and were members of the different armed forces. 2714

Aprll 24th, 1970 MR. ABBOTT: Tape 619 JM - 1 I can speak with authority as to his devotion to the hospital, to the people of that area and indeed to the people of the whole East Coast and it was a personal delight for me when I heard of the honour which was being conferred upon him at Ottawa. I am sure it is a pleasure for me to see him sitting today in this House and he is another one of our Canadian citizens and also associated with him is my personal friend, Mr. Gillett. I too hope that something will be devised and planned for the hospital of Twillingate which is badly needed.

We do hope Sir that you to, I am sure, are familiar with Dr. Olds and the good people of Twillingate, we will all work together for that purpose. HON. F.W. ROWE (MINISTER OF EDUCATION): Mr. Chairman, I would like to associate myself with the other speakers who have first of all welcomed this' fine bunch of young students here from one of our famous city schools. Perhaps it would be a good time to express our condolences to them for the very serious misadventure and misfortune that took place this year which affected them so dramatically and drastically.

May I also and this is my primary reason for standing at this time because we do have students here every day from all our schools and it would be occupying, I think, too much of the time of the House if I were to stand up each day as Minister of Education and greet those students. The official greeting is given normally by the Head of the Government but I do feel that I should associate myself at this time with the other speakers in welcoming here one of Newfoundland& most distinguished citizens.

I must take issue with my hon. friend who has just spoken there and whom I have personally been connected for many years too, I do not know, I think perhaps we should leave this to Dr. Olds to referee but I have a feeling that perhaps I am the one who has known Dr. Olds the longest having visited him and the late Mrs. Olds~ during I believe the first month, the first weeks that he was in Newfoundland. We had a very - MR. DICKMAN: Forty years ago1 How old are you? MR. ROWE: I am, shall I say it was in the early thirties. My age has been brought to the attention of the public so much lately in particular by my 2715

••r .. -..-.. - . _ _ .. ... . MR. ROWE: bon. friend from Burin that perhaps I should not say so but I am fifty-seven years old, a pretty advanced age at this time. Hay I say also that I have more· than a passing reason for expressing my welcome here to Dr. Olds today. My home is as the House knows is Lewisporte and we were one of the first settlements to benefit from the creation of what is now a famous Newfoundland hospital, Notre Dame Memorial Hospital.

Indeed my father, I am very proud to say, was one of the chartered subscribers to that hospital, was himself treated there in that hospital and many members of my family received treatment, excellent treatment I am very happy to say, at the hands of Dr. Olds and his associates in that hospital. Like all other Newfoundlanders I am very proud of the honour that has just been conferred on him, it is a recognition of his great services and it is, of course as he would be the first to say, an honour also to Newfoundland. While I am at this may I also express my personal pleasure in welcoming here along with Dr.

Olds a well known Twillingate business man who happens also to have been an old college chum of mine in the person of Mr. Herbert Gillett. RON. J. NOLAN (MIN. OF SUPPLY): Mr. Speaker, I would like as the member for St. John's South to welcome the students from Holy Cross, the two grade eight classes and also their teachers, Mr. Dunphy and Mr. Foley. At the same time while I am on my feet and as a part of this greeting I would like on their behalf, Mr.

Speaker, to thank you most sincerely for taking time out recently to go and visit with both classes and to speak to them prior to their visiting with us in the House of Assembly. I was wondering if it would be in order be~ause I know of the great number of requests you received to go to various schools from time to time, Mr.

Speaker, to suggest "to this House if it would not be a good idea perhaps because I know how many schools in various parts of the Province would like to have the Speaker go and visit with them prior to their coming to the House if it would not be worth while for us to consider perhaps either say three or four short tape recordings done by the bon. the Speaker on proceedings in the House or some such pamphlet which could be perhaps distributed and at a minimum cost I would suggest to schools in Newfoundland. I think it might be worthwhile. Perhaps it may be something 2716

Tape 619 JM - 3 MR. NOLAN: worthwhile considering because the Speaker as you can appreciate cannot obviously visit every school. Unlike the bon. leader of the Opposition the Premier did not have the opportunity of attending Holy Cross

whereas I did, I would remind the hon. leader of the Opposition that learning is a continuing process and we are presently attempting to arrange to get some night classes arranged for the Premier at a later date, if we ever get a, perhaps, new Holy Cross School built in the West End of St. John's. MR. WELLS: There is a vacant seat down, there. MR. NOLAN: A vacant seat but nevertheless he can then claim to be an ex-pupil. Also, of course, another man in the House today my colleague, the hon. Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources, is also a former student of Holy Cross.

As many of you know Holy Cross was burnt down this year and as a result many of the classes now are located in the recreation centre in Buckmaster's Field. It is as I indicated a badly needed for and was all the time as a matter of fact even before the fire a great need for a new school in the West End of St. John's and that need is all the more evident right now and I am hopeful that in the near future we can see the facilities that are so badly needed for perhaps seven or eight hundred boys in the West End of St. John's. I would also like to join with the others in welcoming and congratulating Dr. Olds.

I had an opportunity some time ago to visit with him in his home in Twillingate and I would like to thank him for his courtsey and also to welcome Senator Laing on.his visit to our House today. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. HR. CURTIS: Mr. Speaker, as a member for Twillingate district I want to thank the Premier and the hon. members for the kind welcome they have given Dr. Olds. Dr. Olds is my host when I go to Twillingate and for the last twenty years I have enjoyed having intimate chats with him and in visiting the hospital with him and seeing at that hospital people from all over Newfoundland.

In fact I have seen people from Corner Brook come to Twillingate hospital for 2717

"J.ape bl<J JM- 4 MR. CURTIS: treatment. Dr. Olds is a well known surgeon. His name is a household word in Twillingate and the people of Twillingate are very conscious of the fact that this is the fortieth aniversary of his coming. When he came to Twillingate he came there at a salary I think it was SlOO. per month or less and in spite of that small salary he settled down in Twillingate and I do not think you could tear him away from Twillingate if you tried.

His name as I say is a household word and the people of Twillingate are hoping that on this his fortieth anniversary the Government can see its way clear to give assistance to the building of a new hospital there so that the excellent staff trained by Dr. Olds can do justice to the constituency they serve. I would also like to welcome the students from Holy Cross and Senator Laing. I have not met the Senator but we are glad to see him here. PETITIONS MR. BURGESS: I would like to take this opportunity of presenting a petition on behalf of approximately 2,800 residents of Labrador West.

The prayer of the petition is relative to a matter which comes under Federal jurisdiction and this is the matter of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and the scheduling of television in Labrador West. In Labrador West the facilities have been provided essentially, the transmitter has been provided essentially by the Iron Ore Company of Canada at no cost to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and all that is left for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation to do is to provide the scheduling and the programing.

We have approximately fifty hours of viewing time per week and sixty-per-cent of it in English and forty­ per-cent of it in French. Now the people of Labrador West feel that this is in no way adequate, neither the type of programing or the viewing time hours and they would like to see some change as soon as is practicable, some change as soon as possible.

Now the prayer of the petition, Sir, is that the residents of Labrador West demand of our Provincial Government that the strongest type of represent­ ation be made to the Federal authorities concerned pius the Canadian Broad­ casting Corporation to ensure an immediate study into the scheduling and viewing 27~8

April 24t·h, 19.70 MR. BURGESS: Tape 6J.9 time hours of the CJCL television outlet in Labrador City. We would li~e to s.ee some strong representation made on our behalf since it is entirely frustrating when one is watching television in Labrador West one has to resist the impulse to put .their boot through the television set at times. I am a very restrain type individual but there are some people who are not so I am ·sure there is 1110re than one television set that is gone by the wayside. 1 would like t .o present this petition to this bon.

House and have it referred to the department to which it relates if in fact it relates to any department but I would like to have the strongest kind of representation made o.n our behalf, Sir. Thank you. ..._. e A

Tape no. 620 Page 1 April 24th., 1970 HON. EARL WINSOR (Minister of Labrador Affairs): I would like to support the petition presented by the hon. member for Labrador West. I realize what the position is in Labrador West and how aggreviated the people of Labrador West become, when television which they hope to see, is not shown for days or weeks after. However, Mr. Speaker, it has not gone unnoticed by this Government.

I have made strong representation, as Minister of Labrador Affairs, on behalf of the people of Labrador West, and the only satisfaction I can get from the people concerned at Ottawa and from the CBC is that there will be the satelite installation which will be put into effect in 1972 and until then they cannot assure us of any real improvement in the situation. Now this is not going to please, I am sure, the people of Labrador West.

But in addition to that, Sir, I have requested that the delivery of the film should be speeded up and, instead of a week or two weeks, they should get the filming with the least possible delay. I have been assured, Mr. Speaker, that the CBC would look into this, and I strongly support the petition of the hon. member for Labrador West. HR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I would certainly rise to support the petition as presented by the bon. member.

I always have felt, and I have said so publicly that the only time that Labrador can tr.uly be considered a part of Newfoundland is through information and this can only be done by having a good radio and television hookup; so that they are in daily contact. There is nothing more frustrating than to be in Labrador and to have a Christmas program come on a week after Christmas for example. It is DOt at all relevant.

No one associates with it, and although for us who have the benefits of radio and television the way we do have here on the Island, you cannot really appreciate the seriousness and the great communications' gap that is there unless you actually live there and unless you are exposeJ the to it daily, as residents of Labrador are. I would certainly support this and in addition to that what has been tabled farthis House, it should be the responsibility of someone to see to it that it is forwarded to the 2720

April 24th., 1970 Tape no. 620 Page 2 responsible representative or authority in Ottawa directly. I take much pleasure in supporting it, Sir. MR. CALLAHAN: I, too, wish to support the petition, Mr. Speaker, and say that not only is it a question, as somebody as said, the direct service.

It is also a question I think of improving the present service until the direct service is provided, because I think my bon. friend from Labrador West, in his petition, would agree that that is not going to be done in a week, and some proposals have been made, and I think they are workable, and I think they are practical, if the parties involved will come together to, infact, speed up the service and particularly the Provincial news service. It is possible, because it is being done by private television on the Island.

It is possible with air services now being as they are and what they are to have same day service with filmed news • It is being done right now, flown from Toronto and shown within the same twenty-four hours in St. John's; the filmed ~ news of the private network from the previous ten hours. The same thing can be done in Labrador. I would like to add to that, Mr. Speaker, ·whether people in St. John's and generally the Avalon Peninsula and the East Coast realize it or not, we do not in fact have a Provincial television network even on the Island.

It is quite true to say, and I think my bon. friend from Humber East, if he were here, would agree that except for the private outlet in St. John's which has outlets in other parts of the Island, which do not cover the rest of the Island, and except for the recently and I say 'recently' within the last year or so; established new satelites of the CBC. Large parts of this Province effectively are cut-off from the main production centres of the televison communications' industry in the Province.

So it is a problem that applies on the west coast and on the nordicoast and the northwest coast of the Province as well as in Labrador. I do not know, perhaps it is necessary to createsome formal basis for dealing with this problem, which is a Federal problem, but none the less is a problem for the same people who live in the Province, who are served by the Provincial Government. It 2721

April 24th., 1970 Tape no. 620 Page 3 might be through the transportation

section of the Government that communications could be added on. I do not know. But the problem extends beyond simply the Labrador question. It also is a very real problem in other parts of the Province; so far as a truly Provincial television communications' service is concerned, · we do not have it, and as far as Labrador is concerned, I think if the parties; namely, the CBC and principally the Iron-ore Company and perhaps Wabush should bear some of the costs as well, Wabush Mines. If they would get together, Mr.

Speaker, it is my opinion that a very simple practical a~rangement could result in people in not only in Western Labrador incidentally, but on the coast as well could have same day service in terms of Provincial news and many live programs produced in the centre of the industry in the Province. I hope that what I have said falls on the right ears, and makes some impression. MR. FRED RO\{E:· Mr. Speaker, I rose at the time the bon. member from Labrador West rose. I thought he was going to pay a tribute to Dr. Olds in line with the othe~ and that is why I yielded at the time.

With your permission, Sir, I would like to make a statement at this time. I believe, Mr. Speaker, this statement will be of interest to the House, to all members of the House, in line~ with our policy of reorganizing the Department of Education, with a view td having it play a wider role in all aspects of education in the Province. I am able to announce the following additional appointments to the Department.

Mr. ~raham Snow has been appointed Director of the new division of Physical Education and Youth; This new division which will include the former division which was in the Department of Provincial Affairs, but which will be much wider and much more comprehensive. No, no that Bill, Mr. Speaker, is merely the name of the department itself. No, it has nothing to do with that. The Bill before the HOuse is merely 27~2

April 24th., 1970 Tape no. 620 Page 4 the Bill which changes the name of the Department of Education from that name to the name, "The Department of Education and Youth." This is a transfer which has been authorized. I am making a statement with regard to the appointments within the Department of Edu~ation. This division will be responsible for assisting schools boards in the development and administration of Physical Education programs in schools and for assisting communities in the organization of Physical Fitness programs and competitive sports. Mr. Snow who was born at Carmanville is forty-one years old.

He was awarded a Bachelor of Arts Degree from Memorial University in 1955. In 1959, he received a diploma in Physical Education from Dalhousie University and he was awarded a Masters Degree in Physical Education from Springfield College, United States in 1960. In addition, Mr. Snow has completed a number of postgraduate courses in Physical Education. He has a wide and varied experience in the field of Education in Newfoundland. In 1964 he was appointed Director of Physical Fitness Division in the Department of Provincial Affairs.

The second appointment is one of great interest, I am sure, to the House, because it is actually the second appointment of this kind in the history of Newfoundland and this is the appointment of a member of a religious order to the Civil Service of Newfoundland. I have always regretted, Mr Speaker, and I know the House has and others as well the fact that until recently, it was impossible for the Government to avail itself of the services of these highly skilled and talented members of the religious orders. That policy has now been changed, and we are very happy to take advantage of it.

Sister Te~esita Dobbin has been appointed to the position of Reading Consultant in the Division of Instruction in the Department of Education. She will, of course, be a consultant and the word; as I use it here, means a consultant available to all the schools of Newfoundland. Sister Dobbin who was born on Bell Island holds a Bachelor of Arts Degree and a Bachelor of Education Degree from the University of Ottawa. A Master of Arts Degree from the Catholic University 2723

April 24th., 1970 Tape no. 620 Page 5 .,f Ame.rica aiicl a Ph .1)., from the same Un~versity. I should interject that s}ie iS probably one Of the tvo Or three most highly educated perSOtJS in this Province at tb;ls time. Sister Dobbin has bad extensive experience tdehing in various parts of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Last year she was appointed Reading Consultant with eonsultan,t with the Roman Catholic School Board in St. John's. 2724

April 24th., 1970 Tape no. 621 Page 1 a new position, Sister Dobbin will be working with school board personnel in an attempt to improve the quality of the reading programs in Qur schools, and this again, I should interject is one of the most- serious problems in the whole field of education in Newfoundland; the problem of reasoning itself. The third appointment is that of Mr. Otter Lawrence, who has been appointed supervisor of curriculum in the division of instruction. Mr. Lawrence is a native of Bay l'Argent in Fortune Bay. He has been employed by the Department of Education for the past eighteen years.

For fourteen years, district he was~school supervisor and for three years, assistant director of curriculum, and for the past year, supervisor of curriculum. He has spent five years in addition to that teaching in various parts of Newfoundland. Mr. Lawrence holds a Bachelor of Arts Degree from Memorial University and an Arts Degree · in Curriculum from Columbia University. He also is a specialist in the field. He is also incidentally a member of the International Reading Association. The fourth appointment is that of Mr.

William Kennedy, who has been appointed supervisor of Pupil-Personnel Services in the Division of Special Education. Mr. Kennedy holds a Bachelor of Arts Degree from St. Mary's University in Halifax and a Bachelors· Degree in Education from Dalhousie University. In 1967, Mr. Kennedy completed a Masters · Degree in Education in Guidance at St. Francis Xavier in Nova Scotia. His impressive academic career also includes four years study in philosophy at All Hallows College in Dublin. Mr. Kennedy who was born in Trepassey has taught several years in Newfoundland.

He is also, this is an interesting fact, taught in Jamaica as a participant in a Canadian Teachers Federation Project overseas. For the past three years, he bas been employed as a full time eoaasellor at the Smallwood Collegiate in Wabush·, In his new position, Mr. Kennedy will be working with school systems across the Province in the development of guidance and counsel programs, another great defect as the House knows in Newfoundland, the need for guidance, adYiee available to schools. 2725

April 24th., 1970 Tape no. 621 Page 2 The fifth appointment is that of Mr. Norman Harris who has been appointed Assistant~Director of Instructional Materials, again in the division of instruction. In this capacity, he will be responsibile for the promotion of audO-visual and other instructional materials among local school systems throughout the ~rovince. I stress, Mr. Speaker, that this is of special interest to this House that these appointments are designed to service the schools of Newfoundland. Mr. Harris is a native of St.

Josephs in Placentia Bay and, as a matter of interest, is also a brother of the Dean of Arts and Science, Dr. Harris at our University. He holds a Bachelor of Education and a Bachelor of Science Degree from Memorial and at the present time has completed a Masters Degree with special emphasis on educational media. During the past year, Mr. Harris has been working, in fact for the pass three years, with the audO-visual division at Memorial University. The sixth appointment is Mr. Kenneth Pittman who is appointed as specialist in Art in the Department of Education. Mr. Pittman is a native of Corner Brook.

He holds a Bachelors Degree from Loyola College, New York. He has also studied several years in fine Arts at Sic r~orge Williams University in Montreal, and he holds a diploma in Commercial Art from Westport in Connecticut. At the present time, Mr. Pittman is employed as supervisor of Art by the Roman Catholic School Board for Humber, St. Barbe. In his new work, he will be responsibile for the development of an Art program for Newfoundlands' schools and he will provi~e the systems to school boards in implementing that program. The final appointment, Mr. Speaker, is that of Mr.

John Acreman ·who has been aamed Assistant Deputy Minister in the Department of Education. The House will remember that Mr. Acreman was appointed chief superintendent in February of the present year. He will continue to act as chief superintendent and as liaison officer between the Department of Education and the district schools boards. He has had vast experience in that, Mr. Speaker. and is particularly fitted for it. In addition to administering the chief superintendent's division, he will have 2726

April 24th., 1970 Tape no. 621 Page 3 special administrative responsibilities for the internal operations of the Department of Education itself. There are several other senior posts that have been advertised and I expect to be able to announce the appointments of these posts within the next few weeks. This means by the first of June or thereabouts, the reorganization of the Department of Education, at the senior and executive level, will have been completed at least for the time being. Mr.

Speaker, in view of the interest of the House and others, outside in this matter, I have prepared copies which are avaiable to the press. MR.. MURPHY Mr. Speaker, I would just like to add a word of support to the petition presented by the hon. member for Labrador West, and I think all of us here in the House know that the member that was previous to the member that is now sitting, Mr. Devine, I think, was one of the strong points he always made of communication in Labrador, and I am sure that all of us here together on both sides of the House seem to be very much in favour of pressing the c.

B. c. on this and as I said not long ago with reference to communications with southern Labrador, and in this age where we have communications with the moon and so on and so forth.

There is no reason by C.B.C. cannot come up with some help for the people, in all districts of Labrador and I am sure the Labrador members;, one thing that they must receive constantly from their constituents, and that is the lack of communication, and I believe that if this Hduse really went to it to support this petition, I am sure that action would be forthcoming in a very short while on the extension and the improvement of communications, radio, television, telephone and every means in Labrador. MR.

SPEAKER I is moved and seconded that this petition be received and referred to the department to which it relates. Carried. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, not wanting to delay matters, I would like to say that we also support the prayer of the petition. As the bon. member no doubt knows. Motion carried. 2727

April . 24thh, 1970 Tape DO 621 Page 4 MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I,tOOt·' have a petition for presentation to this bon. House. I hope I can look forward to the same enthusiastic and unanimous support from my petition that the hon. member for Labrador West has received. It is sigped by 650 citizens, approximately 650 of the municipality of Lawn, the communities of Point au Gaul, Lords Cove, Point May and Taylors Bay. It goes on to say that: we do hereby bring to your attention our grave concern about exisiting conditions of that

section of the highway routes 11 and 14, which serve our area, from St. Lawrence, through Lawn, Taylors Bay, Lords Cove, the northern and westerns sections of Lamaline to Point May serving additional sections of Lamaline and also Point au Gaul and to Fortune and Grand Bank. The petition continues, ~fr. Speaker, to indicate very clearly, which is a very fact, that many of the residents of these towns commute daily to Fortune, Grand Bank and St. Lawrence.

This road is the only means by which they can travel to and from these places. !he school system in that area or systems used this same road for the transportation of high school and elementary pupils. The two hospitals serving the area are located at Grand Bank and St. Lawrence and

PK - J. MR. HICKMAN:ar,ain this so-called road is a vital artery and means of communication to them. These examples will serve ·to illustrate the need for and the rights of "the people tl) have adequate road connection. At present daily commuters state the road is in a deplorable condition, and very little is being done in the way of maintenance. We also contend that mere maintenaace · .. cannot c~ete with the detoriation of the road, and we strongly urge that a program of improvement be immediately carried out.

The road referred to will soon be subjected to its maximum use by trucks during the season of the shore fishery. For example last year 10 million pounds of fish was trucked to the fish plant at Fortune and Grand Rank. The road in its present state of disrepair is detrimental to the communities concerned, and it is a menace to the public safety. We hereby demand that adeqeate improvement be carried out immediately. Let me say, Mr. Speaker, that this road that we call the shore road was built long, long before Confederation. In fact it was built I believe before the days of Commission of Government.

There has been no change in that road since that time. Well, maybe one chance, the,potholes are now more numerous than they were when it was designed to accommodate a very small amount of traffic. And now with the industrial development that side of the peninsula and large quantities of fish in the summer the road just cannot bear the traffic that is now attempting to use it. MR. NEARY: They will need a new member. MR. HIC~·~: Maybe they are right, but they will not get one. They are very happy with the one they have. Government in . l966, MR. NEARY: Will the hon. member repeat that? MR.

HIC~·~: I said they are very, very happy with the member they have, and the indications are that, he can continue as long as he is prepared to offer himself to that district. ~~ich will continue for the foreseeable future, to set bon. members minds at ease. MR. Speaker, in 1965, I think, anyway it was before I was an hon. 2i~9

- -r - ·-- MR. HICIO!fu'l: member of this House, Government recop.nized the justice and wisdom of this petition, and tenders were called for the construction and paving of a road from Lawn to Fortune. This was to be done under the Atlantic Development Board Grant, the tenders were called, the contract, as I recall, the statement of the hon. present Minister of Finance, who was then Minister _of Highways, and the member for the district of Burin, that the tender had been approved.

But as this was a cost sharing program, it was necessary for the Government of the day, to find the full cost of its share of building this road, and at that time the never, never, plan was very much invogued for the construction of highways, Ottawa rejected the never, never plan, that was the last that has ever been heard of the road from Lawn to Fortune. So it is with a great deal of pleasure, and at the same time concerned that in 1970, a road that was built in 1925, still remains in the same deplorable condition that it was in at the time it was built.

I ask that this petition be laid on the table of the House, and referred to the appropriate department to which it relates, in the fond hope and certain knowledge that the hon. ?iinister of Highways will take the appropriate action, and if he cannot find the money, the hon. Minister of Social and Community Development who .. has got a pocket full of DREE Dollars, will undoubtedly see that this is carried out this year. MR. THONAS BURGESS: If the hon. gentleman will recall, that Hr. Hhite told:::us they will have more asphalt than they know what to do with it at Come-by­ Chance. HR.

HICKHAN: He hereby demand that adequate improvements be carried out illlJ!!ediately, and pray. No the prayer starts, just a petition. But I can see that this is not going to get too sympathetic consideration from the other side of the House l!r. Speaker. HR. CROSlHE: Mr. Speaker, we would like to support the prayer of this petition s~ ablied presented by the bon. member for Burin. And we hope that the stark facts that he has recited will receive reaeptive hearing from the !-lin is ter of !' i ~>ht.:ay!i. - -- _- ~ ::1. MR.·-CROSEI~: These are the stark ·facts, the other facts he should ' already know. 2730

MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I once had the pleasure of driving over that road, in the company of the hon. member for Burin, the hon. the Premier, and several other members of the Government, and I think we can all testify to the fact, this road needs improvement. And that any cost benefit analysis now would show that the benefits of paving that road would certainly out­ weigh the cost, and we hope that the prayer of the petition or even the demand of the petition will fall on sympathetic ears and that this work will be undertaken as soon as the snow, and wind•••, ••• MR. lliC101AN: The snow is gone. lfR.

CROSBIE: rain clears out of the Burin Peninsula. MR. SPEAKER: It be moved and seconded that this petition be received and referred to the department to which it relates. NOTICE OF MOTION MR. SMALU"OOD: Hr. Speaker, before you pass on may I have permission to table the Annual Report of the Tourist Development Division of my department. The House will be interested to know that $62 million was spent by tourists in Newfoundland in the past year, $62 million. An increase of nine per-cent over the year before.

The House will be interested I am sure to know, that 308 , 000U o~ visitors went to the Terra Nova National Park last year, that 391,000 went to the Signal Hill Historic Park. Which is an increase of twenty- seven percent over the year before. That 17,000 visitors went to Castle Hill last year, an increase of 120 percent over the year before. And that 21,000 went to the Quid! Vidi Battery last year. And that 3,000 visited the \'!king Site at L'Anse Aux }!eadows in the Strait of Belle. Copies L think are available for all hon. members. NO%ICE OF MOTION BON. L. R. CURTIS: (MINISTER OF JUSTICE): Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomo~row move the House into Committee of the \~ole to consider certain amendments=·to the Taxation Agreement Act, 1957. I also will move the House into a Committee of the \Vhole to consider certain amends to the Telegraph Tax Act. These two resolutions will replace -Motions 5 and 6 on the Order Paper. 2731

ANS~~RS TO QUESTIONS MR. Sl-fALU100D: Mr. Speaker, answer to Question No. 155 on the Order Paper o~ March 5th. in the name of tbe bon. member for St. John's West. The answer is "No." But I can add that a lease was submitted. but it has been referred to the Department of Justice for their consideration. Answer to Question 209 on the Order Paper of Harch lOth. in the name of the bon. member for St. John's Centre, the Leader of the Opposition. The answer to (1) $4,167,714 United States dollars. $4,167,714 U.S. from the Newfoundland Industrial Development Corporation. (2) $3,374,710 United States dollars and $848,429 Canadain Dollars, total $4,223,139.

(3) Is outstanding liabilities $9,500, and balance of contracts $99,750.

April 24, 1970 Tape 1623 Page 1 MR. SMALLWOOD: In answer to Question No. (222) on the Order Paper of March 10, in the name of the hon. member for St. John's West. The answer is in two parts. The short answers to

Part 2. The answer is "yes." And part of that answer is Paragon Hotel Limited; payments amounting to $38,995. Sea Mining Corporation Limited interest amounting to $303,872. The answer to the first

part is as follows: Atlantic Sugar Refineries Co. Limited, $2,631,000; terms equal semi-annual installments over twenty years. Interest rate, eight and a quarter and eight and three-quarters percent. Security, mortgages on the six trawlers. Then Fish Buildings Limited - amount $3 million, semi-annual installments of principal and interest; eight percent. Security, a note to the Crown Corporation: $750,000 has been paid. Hotel Buildings Limited, amount $6,450,000. , The terms demand interest six and a half and seven and a quarter percent respectively. Security notes of the Crown Corporation.

Marystown Shipyard Construction Limited, amount $5,060,000. Terms demand, interest six and a half, seven and a quarter. Security notes of Crown Corporation, title is in the name of the Crown. Mooring Cove Building Company Limited, $1,847,000. Terms demand, interest six and a half, and seven and three quarters percent. Security notes of the Crown Corporation and the title is in the Crown. Newfoundland Pulp and Chemical Company Limited, $2,500,000. Mortgage to be executed, interest eight percent. The title is in the name of the Crown. Or the title is in the Crown.

Newfoundland Steel Company Limited, million the amount of $3.25, .and the terms are in accordance with the Act no. (83) of 1969 of this House. The Paragon Hotel Limited, the amount is $143,000. The terms are equal monthly installments over twenty years. And the interest is ae~en percent, and the security is second mortgage. Provincial Building Company Limited; the amount is $4,167,714 US dollars. And the terms are demand interest prevailing New York rates. The security is that it is a Crown Corporation. Sea Mining Corporation Limited, $2,800,000.

The terms are equal semi-annual installments over fifteen years, and the interest is seven and three quarters percent, and the security is a mortgage. 27:33

April 24, 1970 Tape #623 Page 2 Steers Limited, the amount is $750,000. The terms are equal semi-annual installments over twenty years, and the interest is eight percent, and the security is a mortgage. Question No. (224) on the Order Paper of March 10, in the name of the hon. member for St. John's West. The answer to the first

part is "yes." And the amount is $28,446,000. The answer to the second

part is demand notes, demand notes of the Corporation. The answer to the third

part is "yes," and the reason is that it is our policy and it happens to be our own institution. The answer to part (4) is that the advances represented a portion of funds raised by the Government for general purposes. It is not possible to relate them to any specific source, and therefore, the •details requested were not available. Question No. (227) on the Order Paper of March 10, in the name of the hon. member of St. John's West. The answer to the first

part is that there has never been an overdraft at the Bank of Montreal. And the House will understand of course, tha the term overdraft has a specific banking meaning. Within that meaning there has never been an overdraft at the Bank of Montreal, so far as the Government of this Province is concerned. This is a figure that comes from the Governm.ent 's books. It includes . hundreds of cheques which are outstanding. The Government borrows by way of a demand loan to cover any funds required. Short-term financing of course. The answer to the second

part is; the Government demand loan as of March 1, 1970 amounted to $14,859,670. This represented the short•term or treasury notes at the Bank at that date. In the second place, the power distribution district of South Newfoundland. Power distribution district owed the Royal Bank of Canada $200,000 as of March 1, past. And in the third place the New­ foundland Industrial Development Corporation owed the Franklin National Bank of the United States $4,500,000 as of March 1. The answer to the third

part is that the Government's outstandin~ treasury bills as of March 1, 1970 were $4,697,744. And in the second• place, the Newfoundland and Labrador Power Commission had outstanding treasury bills as of March 1, totalling $3 million. Question No. (355) on the Order Paper of April 27:31

April 24, 1970 Tape #623 Page 3 10, in the name of the bon. member for Fortune. The answer to the first

part is that the Government drew down only half of the amount namely $7,500,000 U.S. funds. The rate was ten percent renewable every six months for five years. And the answer to the second

part is the interest rate fluxuates, up and down. Present market conditions would indicate that the renewal interest rate is dropping. Question No. (380) in the name of the bon. member for Burin. The answer is in the first place, $2,500,000 and seven and one quarter percent interest. In the second place $250,000 at seven and three quarters percent interest. And in the third place $500,000 at seven and three quarters percent interest~ Question No. (329) on the brder Paper of April 9, in the name of the bon. member for Burin.

There is no lease, A lease was submitted, but has been referred to the Department of Justice for their consideration. A proposed lease was submitted. Question No. (322) on the Order Paper of April 9, in the name of the hon. member for St. John's Center, the Leader of the Opposition. Would someone do him the kindness to jot down the answer? The answer is that the funds were used to pay certain obligations of the Company. The loan was of a temporary nature and has since been repaid in full. The answer to the second

part is that it has been repaid in full. The answer to the third

part is that there were temporary loans, and no agreement was entered into, and at present the Government has nothing • There is nothing for this company that has been guaranteed to the Government. Question No. (431) on the Order Paper of April 15, in the name of the bon. the Leader of the Opposition. Joseph R. Smallwood, August 16, 1968, bon. L. R. Curtis, January 19, 1968. Ron. E. M. Roberts, October 20, 1969. John M. Shaheen, New York, N.Y. June .28, 1960, Mr. Homer·White, same address, same date. Mr. Peter L. Karas, same address, same date. Mr. James W. Emmison, same address, same date. Mr. James P.

Derainie, same address, same date. Roy M. Fermark, same address, same date. General Otto Lessing, Maypark Place, St. John's. I do not know the date. It is not shown here, but I assume it is the same date. 2735

April 24, 1970, TApe 624, Page 1 -- apb MR. SMALLWOOD: I did not hear that question MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Shaheen and the and the others closed the MR. SMALLWOOD: June 28, 1968, and all from his name on with the possible exception of Geaeral Lessing are of the same date, but the date for General Lessing is not shown in my answer. Question no. 476 on the Order Paper of April 21st. in the name of the bon. the member for St. John's West. This information in my answer to the first part was given only recentiy in recent days in this House. I neglected to take it down, but no doubt it is in Hansard, The answer to the second

part is yes, though the definitive report has not yet been received. The answer to the third

part is that I have already tabled that information in the House. MR. CROSBIE: A supplementary question Mr. Speaker, with respect to the first part. No exact date was given by the bon. the Premier earlier for the appointment. MR. SMALLWOOD: The information was not given by me, because, ! did not remember it at the time, but it has been given since in this House by the representative of that company. No doubt the date will be found in Hansard. Question no. 477, on the Order Paper of April 21st. in the name of the hon. member for St. John '·s West.

This has reference to a question that was asked previously but as there is a correction now in the answer given before, I give the answer. The first

part is the full purchase price was $11,968. less trade $4,200. $7,768. plus seven per cent S.S .• A. which was $543.76 for a total of $8,311.76. I think that maybe perhaps given correctly before, but the one that I think was incorrectly given before is the second part, and the second

part is $1,243.72 plus $636.03 that is per an additional number, for a total of $1,879.75. MR. HICKMAN: Would the bon. Premier permit a supplementary question for the information of the House. Does the Government pay S.S.A. tax on its own vehicles? MR. SMALLWOOD: In the words of an Americanism, search me, I do not know. I am just reading the answer the Department of Finance sent me 2i!lG

April 24, 1970, Tape 624, Page 2 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: I realize that, I am not asking for HR. SMALLWOOD: I do not know, I just do not know. I was surprised when I saw it. I assumed the Department of Finance who prepared the question, I know I must take responsibility for it, especially as I happen to be acting Minister of Finance. But I am a little bit surprised, I did not bother to check back. They compiled the answer as they do virtually all these answers on financial matters, and I assumed that it is charged in. It is charged in as a revenue, and it is charged out as an expense. It is just mbook-keeping entyr.

It goes into one pocket of the Government and ~oms out of the other. It is pure book-keeping and nothing else. When the Government pays S.S.A., it pays it to itself. So it takes money out of its pocket and puts it back in another pocket of the same Government and then it all ends up in C.R~F. (Consolidated Revenue Fund). The hon. gentleman was a member of the Cabinet for three years, he ought to have known, he ought to have found that out. He did not, well I have been a member for longer than three years and I have not found out.

I may now as a result of this question make sane ~quiries and see if we are having that kind book-keeping. It seems normal enough, double entry book-keeping, I mean I do not see anything wrong with it. It is simple double entry book-keeping is it not? MR..HICICMAH: Double dutch MR. SMALLWOOD: It may be double dutch to the bon. gentleman, but there are a lot of things that are double dutch to him MR.·HICKMAN: Ah yes, we have had whole lot of it all this week MR. SMALLWOOD: Question 478, on the Order Paper MR. CROSBIE: Excuse me Mr.

Speaker, excuse me Premier you did not give the number of ~ires, I think the question I asked. How many tires were involved? There was a lot of money spent on tires, we were wondering how many tires were involved? MR. SMALLWOOD: Well I have the vanity to, enough vanity to cause me to ask the Department of Supply to find the best tires that are made in the world, and if I find that they have not found the best I would be very annoyed. I 2737

April 24, 1970, Tape 624, Page 3 -- apb have asked them to find the best tires there are in the world because 1 drive a lot in this car belonging to the Government, and I sometimes have considerable distances to go and I feel that somehow the job 1 have owes me at least the best tires that can be put on the car. This may be highly unreasonable but there I am an unreasonable sort of fellow. Twelve tires and six tires, so that is eighteen is it not? Question 478 on the Order Paper of April 21st. in the name of the bon. the member for St. John's West and if I am not mistaken I have answered this before.

I am more than certain 1 have, but however 1 will answer it again, just in case I did not although 1 would swear that I did. The answer to the first

part is Mr. Speaker, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the hon. the Attorney General, the bon. the Minister of Finance and the hon. the Premier. The answer to the second

part is that there was no formal meeting as is so frequently done, there was a telephonic consultation and that would take the place of a formal meeting. BON. S.A.NEARY (Minister of Welfare): Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to question 472 on the Order Paper of Friday April 17, in the name of the bon. member for Bonavista North. The answer to part one MR. CROSBIE: Which number is that? MR. NEARY: 472, on Friday's Or~er Paper April 17th. the answer to part one is yes, tenders were called in the calander year 1969 for a school and dormitory in Northwest River for the native population in Northern Labrador.

Tenders were received from Newfoundland Engineering and Construction Company, Beck Construction Company, Saunders and Rowell Company, Mark Gosse and Sons Ltd., and H & S Construction. These tenders were called through the public press Mr. Speaker, and I believe also in the Newfoundland Bulletin. The answer to part two, the contract was awarded for the school to the lowest tender who is a well known Newfoundland Company, Mark Gosse and Sons, Spaniard's Bay. The question about the extras should be referred to the Minister of Public Works. No contract has been awarded yet for the dormitory.

The answer to part three is yes, and the answer to part four should be directed to the bon. Minister of Public Works, they are the ones who are constructing the building. 2738

April l4, 197U, Tape b24, Page 4 -- apb .Hr. Speaker,! have a supplementary question connected to part one of the question. You did not give the price tendered by each concern which is asked for in the question. In connection with part two, you did not give the contract price or whether any extras have been awarded. Is the bon. minister going to give us that information also? MR. SMALLWOOD: The two tenderers were Crosbies and Gosse? MR. NEARY: No, there were five tenders, Newfoundland Engineering was one MR. SMALLl.JOOD: That is Crosbie HR. NEARY: Yes. Hr.

Speaker, as far as I know it is not customary to give this sort of information MR. CROSBIE: Why not? HR. NEARY: I intend to follow whatever the procedure has been up to the present time HON. J.A.NOLAN (Minister of Supply): Mr. Speake~, 1 would like to table the answers to first of all question 390 on the Order Paper of April 13th. asked by the bon. member for St. John's West. The andwer to the first

part is $15.751,427., the answer to the second part two, tenders are called in all instan~es. Three, all tenders are awarded to the lowest tenderer, and part four, tenders are opened daily by two members of the purchasing staff. There are no representatives or persons or firms tendering present at the opening of tenders, there could be as I am sure as many as twenty or thirty firms tendering on a particular item due,for tendering on any day. We have no knowledge as to who will be tendering until all the tenders are open and recorded. The answer to question 416, asked by the bon. member for St.

John's West on the Order Paper of April 14th., the answer to part one yes, incorporated under Federal Laws December 6th.l966. The answer to part two, wholly owned subsidiary of Atlantic Aviation Corporation, Willington, Deleware, U.S.A. The answer to part three, Eastern Provincial Airways Limited, Atlantic Aviation of Canada Limited, Field Aviation Co.Ltd.Kenting Aviation Limited, Newfoundland Air Transport, and the lowest cost proposal was accepted. The answer to question 458, 27~9

April 24, 1970, T.ape 624, Page S - apb MR. CROSBIE: Would you please ta~ it a bit slower till we get this down. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, would the bon. member want sOlQething repeated that 1 said? MR. CROSBIE: No, I just ask that you take it a little slower so that we may take 1 t down. HR. NOLAN:. Sorry, alright MR. CROSBIE: What is the ne:l(t one? MR.. NOLAN: Question ••••• .•••••••••

MR.NOLAN: Question No. 458, asked by the bon. member for Gander on the Order Paper of April 17,

(1) Yes.

(2) Atlantic Aviation Company of Canada Limited. MR.ROWE: Question N6. 465, on the Order Paper of April 17, asked by the bon. member for Bonavista North. (1~ No agreements of any kind between Newfound- land and Canada on those matters. MR.FRECKER: Mr. Speaker, I have a very short statement here on the Btd~r Paper of April 8. Question No. 304: it should be redirected to the Department of Municipal Affairs. member for Fortune·Bay. The question was asked by the bon. MR.WINSOR: I have the answers to several questions here appearing on the &rder Baper April 13, Question No. 396: asked by the hon. member for St. John's West.

(1) Since January 1 to March 31, 1970 International Fisheries and Fish Meal Limited has processed herring into fish meal and fish oil on an experimental base. A hundred and fifty tona of fish meal and fifteen tons of fish oil were produced. ·

(2) The herring plant is engaging the production of herring for human consumption using the offal and rejected herring from this production for processing into fish meal and fish oil. Seventy-five per cent of the activities this January to March involved the curing of food herring and twenty-fjve per cent production of meal and oil.

(3) The Government sole contractual responsibility in meeting operation defects is limited to meeting operation defects of the two chartered Harmon vessels. No financial assistance has been required or received since Janaary of 1969. The vessels are expected to return operating profits which the Government will share in the calendar year 1970. Question No. 454 Asked by the Leader of the Opposition, member for St. John's Centre on the Order Paper April 17. (1) is ~ per cent per annum. (2) 7. 3: (a) $937,536. ·(b) $670,558. (c) $434,280. Question No. 455: asked by the hon. member for St. Jobn's Centre.

(1) No. {2) Does not arise. QUESTION No. 459: asked by the bon. member for Gander on Order Paper April 17,

(1) The Government hopes to induce commercial interest to conduct full scale operation at Riverhead. Failing this the fish plant would be available for use of fishermen.

(2) Does not arise.

(3) Does not arise. 27~1

(4) The complex consisting of the fish plant boiler house office building and storage tank which cost in ex~ess of $130,000 in 1967 was purchased for $25,000 and in these circumstances only an inspection was made by fishery officials prior to purchase. MR.STARKES: Question No. 167 asked by the bon. member for Gander on the Order Paper March 5,

(1) No.

(2) Target date was December 31, 1969.

(3) September 30, 1970.

(4) The contract is not yet complete when the contractor returns the clean-up will be effective. Question No. 387: asked by the bon. member for St. John's West.

(1) With the exception, the only exception to this is the situation where at Torrent Riuver Bridge and approaches, this was awarded to Lundrigans Limited as CCM Construction Newfoundland Limited who were the lowest bidder asked to be released as they could not carry out construction because of other obligations. The bids received fori this contract were CCM Construction $162,560 and Lundrigans Limited $172,472.

MR.BURGESS: Who will the contractor be to build the road from Labrador City to Seven Islands1 MR.STAKEB: If you have ~question I ·suggest the bon. member put it on the Order Paper and I will do my best to answer it. MR.CROSBIE: I understand Mr. Speaker, that in all other cases they are awarded to the lowest tender. That is the answer. MR.STARKES: For my information, yes.

(2) Question No. 387, tenders for roads the Deputy Minister of Higkways the Chief Highway Engineer, and the co~rdinator of engineering services. In the contract paving Lethbridge to Georges Brook the maintenance engineer of highways, and Mr. John Fahey of the Federal Department of Public Works als«•attended. For bridges, the Deputy Minister of Highways, chief Highway engineer, chief bridge engineer and tbe co-ordinator of engineering services and the second part of that question, representatives of parties bidding on contracts are nbt invited to be present at the opening of tenders.

But they are called in immediately afterwards and all bids are read out. question No. 386 asked by the hon. member for St. John's West.

(1) Yes, public tenders were invited for all jobs. 27J2

(2) the Deputy Minister 6£ Highways, chief hi.ghway engineer, the co-ordinator of engineering services, anJI the ~epresentative frOIII the federal department of Public: Work.s, and for bridge contracts, the chief bridge 27~3

'Iape no. 626 April 24th., 1970 Page 1 that the chief bridge engineer fits in with the others mentioned. Were all such contracts awarded to the lowest tender1 The answer is yes. Question no. 160, asked by ~he hon. member for St. John's West. I think I have that one in, Sir. · This one got mixed up with the others. In my efforts to be as reasonable as possible and ~et the answers, I put in an extra one, ~r. Speaker, and I hope you will forgive me. I have the aaswer to Question no. 383 asked by the hon. member from St. John's West.

The question with respect to contracts awarded by the Department of llighways durinp, the financial year that commenced April 1st., 1969, list any such contracts with respect to which the contractor has been allowed extras or additions to the original contract price in excess of five per cent of the original contract price, outlining in each case the name of the contractor, the amount of extras or additions to the contract agreed to by the department and the reasons for such agreement to extras or additions to the contract?

In connection with this, I have the following: I will table it in any event; Lundrigans Limited, Corner Brook Stream Bridge extension, the extras amounted to $3,931.38; Lundrigans Limited, Little Barach~is Brook Bridge, $5,479.31; Signal Construction, L'Anse au Loup, Barasway, $4,297; CCM Construction, Traverse Brook Bridge, $38,158.35; Beaton Abbot, Deadman's Bay Brook Bridge, $4,125; Beaton Abbott, Burry's Brook Bridge, $4,150 , ; Lundrigans Construction, Clam Brook ••• ·MR. !nfALLt~OD: Would the hon. minister make it clear to the House that it is Beaton Abbott, not Beaton J.

Abbott, so there will be no possible misunderstanding? MR. STARKES: I think, Mr. Speaker, that this has no reference to the hon. member for Bonavista North. This Beaton Abbott is from Musgrave Harbour. I do not want to have us confused on this matter. Lundrigans Construction, Clam Brook to Terrenceville, intersection 3.6 miles, $68,639; Western Construction paving Marystown to Red Harbour, ten mUes, $29,671.

April 24th., 1970 Tape no. 626 Page 2 Now, Mr. Speaker, in regard to these extras the contracts were all awarded on a used basis and many people think contracts are awarded on a per-mile basis; so many thousands of dollars per-mile. This is not so. The contracts are awarded on the basis of so much per ton of rock, bog, etc. removed and so much per ton for fill, gravel, etc.: replaced back in which to build roads. Any amount :·in excess of those specified in the contract has to be an extra.

On the other hand should the amounts of rock, bog, gravel, etc., be less than called for in the are contract, the contractors paid proportionally less than the contract price . Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of more here that would take about an hour each; not that long, but a half-hour to read. I beg leave to table the answer to Question no. 385, asked by the bon. member for St. John's West on the Order Paper of April 13th. I beg leave to table ,the reply to Question no. 441 on the Order Paper of April 15th., asked by the bon. member for Gander. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR.

CROSBIE: Before Oraers of the Day, I would like to ask the Minister of Justice a question. There seems to be confusion with respect to pay increases for the constabulary, Would the minister tell us whether sergeant and acting sergeants are included in these pay increases? MR. CURTIS: Mr. Speaker, every member of the police force is included. It is true that the budget only refers to constables, but all officers of the constabulary are included. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, on Orders of the Day, I would like to direct a questi~n to the bon. the Premier.

Would he inform the House, whether the Shaheen group will be available for questianing on Monday next? MR. SMALLWOOD: I do not think so, Mr. Speaker. I think they are fed up with insults and slander. MR. CROSBIE: On a Point of Order, Mr. Speaker. That is not a proper answer whatsoever. There have not been any insults or slander given in this House to anyone. 27~5

April 24th., 1970 Tape no. 626 Page 3 MR. SMALLWOOD: A debate on my answer? MR. CROSBIE: There may have been insults given outside the House. MR. SPEAKER: Order please~ MR. CROSBIE : A contemptible answer like that, deserves an' answer Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! The bon. Premier did not say that the visitors were slandered in the House. ORDERS OF THE DAY BON. WILLik~ R. CALLAHAN:(Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources: I would hope, Mr.

Speaker, that it might be possible to sign an agreement with the Government of Canada for development of a national park or second national park in this Province; I would hope that it will be possible to sign such an agreement this summer. We are not anxious to have any unnecessary delay, and we are anxious to have the national park proceed and to have the expenditure of whatever funds the Government of Canada may have set aside or ma7 plan to set aside.

We are anxious to have those funds expended on the proposed Gros Marne National Park with the expenditure beginning, your Honour, as quickly as possible._ ·The only reason the actual development;work might not go ahead as quickly or in as great intensity as it might otherwise do, is anything that might happen to cause a slow-down in the definition of some kind of basic agreement related to the proposal that we. now have made formally to the Government of Canada with respect to the entire northwest coast. I should like to say, Mr.

Speaker, that we are not, and I repeat "not" asking the Government of Canada to give us agreement on every point, on every detail in the proposal we have made. What we seek, Mr. · Speaker, and what we hope will be written into the agreement that we hope to sign this summer is in the first instance,-substantial agreement or I should say in the first instance; agreement in principle to our proposal for integrated, overall 27~G

April 24th., 1970 Tape no. 626 Page 4 development on that coast and in the second instance; substantial agreement on the details of the proposal we have made. Mr. Speaker, there have been suggestions, may I say, that the people on the St. Barbe coast and in the Straits of Belle Isle, have not been fully informed and indeed it has been suggested that we are as a Government afraid to discuss the matter _publicly, and I want to assure the House and the people on that coast, Mr.

Speaker, of two things: that i~ the first instance, we are very anxious that they will be well informed on this matter and secondly, perhaps, I should say that there are three things I want to say. The second thing is that an order has been place .d for sufficient copies of the Whfte Paper in booklet form and some have now been printed and others are being printed and several thousands copies will start going in the mail on Tuesday, hopefully, to go into every home in that area; so that the people will be fully informed.

April l4tn, 1970 Tape 627 JM - 1 MR. CALLAHAN; and his opinions, Mr. Speaker, from what I know of them are not generally reliable. The other thing I wish to say, Mr.

Speaker, is that sometime ago, and I think I have a copy of the letter here, I received a letter from the Corner Brook Chamber of Commerce written I understand following a request from the Northern Regional Development Association. ·~rch 25th, 1970 Dear Sir: At a joint meeting today the representatives of the Stephenville, Deer Lake and Corner Brook Chambers of Commerce met with a member of the Northern Regional Development Association to discuss the Bonne Bay National Park issue.

As a result of this meeting it was decided that before any action was taken we would request all the facts from the departments of Government concerned with the national park. Then they go on to ask some particular questions and they say in the last two paragraphs, "We of Western Newfoundland consider the park to be a vital interest to us in the natural growth of our communities and indeed the liveli­ hood of a considerable number of Newfoundlanders will depend upon this park.

If there is anything that we can do to expidite the bringing into being of the Bonne Bay National Park then we are prepared to assist you in doing so. Yours truly, R.A. Pollett, Pres." Mr. Speaker, I have replied to Mr. Pollett and I raised the question of the correspondence because there had been some reports of what I had said orally to him earlier and they have not been entirely accurate. So rather than depend upon the oral statements that have been made if I read my reply to Mr. Pollett: "April 21st, 1970 Dear Mr. Pollett: I re~ret my inability to deal immediately with your letter of March 25th, 1970.

You are aware that the Government then were completing a \~ite Paper on deveiopment of the St. Barbe Coast and Southern Labrador and I was not in a

l'ape tiL/ .Ji.'& - 4. MR. CALLAHAN: position to give you a very satisfactory reply. I now enclose a copy of the White Paper in booklet form. It should answer a great many questions for you. In 'the meantime it has been proposed," (and this is the matter about which I am concerned at the moment, Mr. Speaker), "it has been proposed that a meeting or conference be held to discuss the entire matter. It is my understanding that your Chamber is prepared to sponser such a meeting or conference and I shall be pleased and happy to attend.

The one condition I would attach is that it be held on the North West Coast preferably at Rocky Harbour. Would you be so kind as to let me know as quickly as possible whether your Chamber is in fact interested in sponsering a meeting and the date on which you propose it take place1 Kindest regards. Sincerely yours," MR. WELLS: Do you mean an open public meeting? MR. CALLAHAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I mean an open public meeting where anybody who wishes to come and ask questions or be informed may do so. MR. WELLS: Would the minsiter permit a question?

Does he not realize that the meeting requested was a meeting between the Federal minister, minister and executive officers of the organizations that met and wrote the letter and then most certainly a public meeting is well but that was the first meeting that was requested so that they could aseess and report back to the groups, does he not realize that? MR. CALLAHAN: Mr.

Speaker, my participation in this business about a meeting has been very simply that indeed prior to this letter from the Chamber of Commerce I spoke on the telephone with the president of the Chamber of Commerce and expressed to him my feeling that there should be a public meeting. Now I have not heard - MR. WELLS: I agree that there should be a public meeting but this is a separate meeting altogether. MR. CALLAHAN: I have not heard, Mr. Speaker, of a private meeting with the Federal minister and indeed I would say my knowledge of what happened some 2'"' .~ 9 , ...

Tape tl"' ..JL'l - .) MR. CALLAHAN : months ago would led me to say that until such time as there has been an agree­ ment and the Federal Government are legally and in every proper way in the picture the Federal minister would not be prepared to discuss what would in fact be a purely Provincial issue until some agreement is signed. Last fall I believe one of the officials, Mrs. Manuel, who is an official of HRDA,,l believe, I believe wrote my colleague,Mr.

ChrJtien, inviting him to come to a meeting and I believe his reply . was in the terms I have just indicated namely; that until there is an agreement, until the Government of Canada would be properly involved as a participant by agreement or in some other legal way he would not feel that he or his officials should intervene in what up till that point is strictly a Provincial issue. MR. WELLS: But the meeting requested by Mr. Pollett was a meeting with the executives of those groups that his letter represented. MR. CALLAHAN: This is not in this letter, Mr. Speaker, which is all I have on paper. MR.

WELLS: That is what was intended and I am personally an ·~offi!er·:of 1 ·the Northern Regional Development Association. MR. CALLAHAN: I would be glad to have a private meeting, Mr. Speaker, I am not objecting to it. MR. MYRDEN: This was requested before actually. MR. CALLAruL~: I am not objecting, Mr. Speaker, to a private meeting.

My thought was to have a public meeting which I think is what should be done and my request to the Corner Brook Chamber of Commerce was and to NRDA incidentally was that either NRDA or the Chambers of Commerce and NRDA together sponser a meeting at Rocky Harbour as I felt it should be on the coast or if they did not feel they should sponser a meeting I would certainly go myself and have one anyway but that was not its right, that was simply - MR. WF.LLS: Would the minister permit_ another question on this point?

Would he say now so that we can know the answer, would he say now that as soon as it can be conveniently arranged between the minister and the executives of these organizations he will meet with them? MR. CALLAHAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, very glad'to. I would think that it would be 27:)0

April 24th, 1970 Tape 627 JM- 4 MR. CAJ,LAHAN: most convenient if the two meetings could be held at about the same time but in any event I will be very pleased to attend both the public and private meeting. But, Mr. Speaker, what I started out to say is that we want the people to know what is happening. We intend to circulate the White Paper to every household up there.

I intend to attend these meetings and further than that I do not know what the procedure is because frankly it is rather new and I think there are no set rules but I would hope very strongly and I am pr~pared to recommend to the Federal minister that as soon as an agreement is signed and as soon as they properly are in the picture that there be in fact a public hearing so that the people of the area can come and be heard in a formal way and say exactly what they feel should or should not be done. MR. HYRDEN: Is that the same as they do in Nova Scotia? MR. CALLAHAN: This has been done in Nova Scotia. Mr.

Speaker, what we have done is to indicate to the Government of Canada much more than just the definition of a national park. But we very definitely have said in the document what the national park should be and how complete it should be. We have said - MR. MYRDEN: We agree with the way it should be too, what the minister suggest. MR. CALLAHAN: What we suggest ·you agree. MR. MYRDEN: I agree with respect to the contents of the park, yes. MR. CALLAHA!t: I could not be more pleased, Mr. Speaker, because I think if we have a division of our people on this we will not in fact get what we are looking fo_r. MR.

MYRDEN: I am not sure about the essential nature of the airports and all of the other things - MR. CALLAHAN: These are other matters with which I am prepared to deal. MR. MYRDEN: With the nature of the park? MR. CALLAHAN: Yes. MR. MYRDEN: We agree. MR. CALLAHAN: I am glad to hear that, Mr. Speaker. MR. MYRDEN: Eminently sensible.

Tape 627 JM- 5 MR. CALLAHAN: The one thing I have to say about that so that there is no misunderstanding, Mr. Speaker, is that we are not saying; put these facilities within the park. We are saying; in association with it. MR. MYRDEN: Have them available? MR. CALLAHAN: Right along side. MR. MYRDEN: Close, right. MR. CALLAHAN: Not necessarily in because the new philosophy that is developing might not permit that and we do not want to just hit a blank wall. MR. MYRDEN: But do not have it so as it is just useless. MR.

CALLAHAN: Well, the bon. gentleman knows I think that if we were to go with another wilderness park it is just the matter of roping of an area with nothing there that was not ther before except a few tables, benches and a few roads. MR. MYRDEN: That is there now. MR. CALLAHAN: What is there now? MR. MYRDEN: Agreed. MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Speaker, I am warmly, Sir, grateful to the bon. gentleman and I hope everybody on the other side feels the same way, that what we have ~roposed is eminently sensible. MR. MURPHY: Most unusual. MR. WELLS: That is three pages of the white paper. 2 ... ~ . 2 I;J

MR. Rot~E: F.H. That is the "Hhite Paper", the"Red Paper" is somethin~ else. MR. CALLAIIA..'I: Mr. Speaker, last day when I was speaking some questions were raised, two actually, and some hon •. members opposite told me they had not had the opportunity and the pleasure of seeinR what the underwater areas are, in the proposed underwater park compontent. And I sent downstairs for the photographs and got some of them back, but by that time we had gotten into some difficulty, some rather deep water in the House, and I did not get a chance to MR. m~LLS: Muddy, Sir. :t-1R. CALLAHAN: \-/ell, it was boiling.

I did not get a chance, Sir, to show hon. members what the underwater compontent area looks like. Before I pass the pictures around, as I will ask one of the pages to do, let me say that Dr. John Green at the University, t·rho did the study for us, for the Government, and who is responsible for the photographs, reported some surprile, I think amazement would be rather a strong word, but certainly surpriSed that the kind and variety and the colour of vegetation on the bottom north of Rocky Harbour was such as it was.

Indicating, this is important when you think in terms of water sort, indicating a much higher degree of heat in the water in that area than anyone had thought to be the case. These pictures, !1r. Speaker - MR. HYRDEN: \olill you permit a question? l·1R. CALLAHAN: Sure. MR. 1-!YRDEN: It is my understanding and I guess everybody's :ll.ere, north of Rocky Harbour is out in the Gulf, there is no harbour north until you get to Port Saunders. 'Now is that an actual direction, would it be up the Arm? I understood they were doing this up in the eastern arm area? MR. CALLAHAN: Mr.

Speaker in reply to that. no, the area :1-':r. Speaker, is along the coast. It is not intend to be inland in the archives. At else the area has" been looked at, and on which we have a recommendation. And it would be just north of Rocky Harbour on the coast. And this incidentally, is t~here these pictures were obtained. I might say, Mr. Speaker, I have photop.raphs of an underwater park in the Bahamas, or at least I have seen pictures of a park in the Bahamas, movies. I have photos of an underwater park in Flordia, and I have coloured photos of an underwater park in }Iaine. And in no way, Sir,

MR. CALLAHAN: did they compare, certainly the picture quality is better, the colour and the variety of colour in no way compares with waters exhibited in the photographs that are now being passed around on the other side. The other thing, }!r. Speaker, I should like to do because it fairly I suma up our position, it sums it up I think rather well, it is not a confidental document, I should like to circulate for the advice of hon. members for their cinforrnation the letter with .which I transmited copies of the white paper to my colleague, Hr. Chretien.

I will say it is not a confidental letter, and it fairly _sums up our position. I think there are sufficient copies here for all hon. members, and for the press gallery. Mr. Speaker, there are one or two points that have been raised, for which I would like to deal because I think they tend to, my hon. friend said a few minutes ago, about the underwater park area, muddy the waters and put the completely wrong complexion on what we have done in the white paper.

The suggestion has been made for example, that we have not acted in good faith with the Government of Canada, tha~ somehow the Government of Canada had been very good and very generous and very kind and have offered us something, and we in turn have turned around and somehow taken unf~ir advantage, which I must say is a bit of a switch in approach. But the suggestionc_has been made, and I should like bon. members, Hr.

Speaker, to know about one or tvlO things that .. have happened, which in my opinion, have been very important and vital, which tend to indicate I think strongly that we have in fact been acting in r.ood faith. One of them, Hr. Spei&~er, was the subject of the ministerial statement from this House a couple of weeks ago, when the hon. the rremier advised the House of the completion of the new 66,000 volt transmission line down the northwest coast. Mr. Speaker, last spring, I think, in April month, the Chairman of the Newfoundland and Labrador Power Commission, Mr.

Hobbs came to see me one day, on the same day I had received a note from the Premier, and in each case the su}lject was that of a new power transmission line down the north coast. And in each concern, both in the notes from the Premier and in ~lr. Hobb's visit, the concern ~V'as the effect that the buildin~ of that line tdrht have on the proposed National Park. 27rJ4

.1.ap~ O.Lo MR. CALLAHAN: Now, I suggest to the House, Mr. Speaker, that if we are not concerned about the National Park, we would not have been very much concerned about where the transmission line would have gone. But hon. members migh say '"ell, that is not a good case ~ because if you built it just anywhere, there might have been some objection or something alone that line. But in fact what I am going to relate to the House now is not publicly known and so the objection that I have anticipated in my opinion is not a sound one.

In fact what happened was that the Power Commission came to the Department of Mines, Agriculture and Resources as the department responsible for the park negotiations, outlined their plan, reminded us about their commitment, to deliver electric power to Hawkes Bay, to the new industrial development, they 't6id us" of their need to get this transmission line built in a hurry. And they were not talking about peanuts or about stringing a line across the road, they were talking about a $3 million project, and a very vital one, and one HR; SMALLWOOD: $3·:aillion and another $1 million for standby down there. MR.

CALLAHAN: For standby down there exactly, ~!r. Speaker, $4 million for the total project. This particular line, Sir, had to be built and had to be built on schedule. And the House maybe interested to know, that the first thing we did was to ask the Power Commission to defer any action until such time as we could discuss the matter with the National Parks Branch. And they did defer, they did some work, they started to work north and south of the National Park to cut right of way, but not to do any work that would commit them in anyway shape or form to a route through the National Park area. 27:;5

April 24, 1970 Tape #629 Page 1 MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Speaker, the National Parks people were very hesitant for the same reason I mentioned a few minutes ago, their hesitancy in attending public meetings. They were very hesitant about having anything to do what clearly was provincial land. He had no rights, but I suppose they felt that there was the risk of becoming somehow embroiled in a situation completely outside the federal jurisdiction. But we did persuade them Mr. Speaker, to become involved. The Power Commission went to Ottawa. The Federal people came to St.

John's, and between them and under the supervision and based upon the guidelines supplied by the National Parks branch of the Federal Government, the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, the Transmissionline was built. But Mr. Speaker, the transmission line

section through the National Park was deferred almost six months despite the urgency of building the line, in order to allow these negotiations on the routing to be completed. And I might say that two or three routes were attempted and each time at least in the first two instances, it was necessary to change. In one instance and the bon. member for St. Barbe South will recognize the routing when I say they were going to go along the Wiltondale Road across to the other side of the Arm, over to Gadds Harbour, and either string a long line which would be very expensive across the water, or go under water.

And the Fire Commission in that instance felt that the overwater lines would be too expensive a proposition, and that the underwater lines they were not happy about because existing cables had not been successful due to ice and other factors, and they did not want to take a chance. The next proposal was to somehow go up behind Gros Morne and come down the other side. And that involved studies and feasibility inspections of the area with the plan being to service the land by helicopter.

And the advice that came back on that one was that because of weather conditions, be it would practically impossible to give any assurance or to have any assurance that these lines could be serviced in wintertime by helicopter, or indeed that the lines could stand. So Mr. Speaker, that had to be abandoned. So eventually they came back to the ~articular area of the

April 24, 1970 Tape #629 Page 2 National Park and they worked out between them in agreement, a route worked out by the National Parks people followed by the Power Commission, and at a delay of about six months, and I might say an increased expenditure of I think close to $100,000 a route was followed which accommodated both the National Parks' planners and the Power Commission. Now Mr. Speaker, I suggest that that is a pretty good and firm indication of good faith, because we could have gone through. We bad no reason to ask National Parks to plan the route.

We had no reason other than the National Park to delay the line for six months, and we certainly had no reason other than the National Park to spend an additional $100,000 in order to make new rights of way, and to get into areas that extended the length of the line and caused problems to the contractors and escalated the cost of $100,000. They changed it Mr. Speaker because they went back through the Park area only under National Park supervision, after having tried every other way. We could have gone through the Park area in the first instance on our own plan.

But we deliberately went and involved the National Parks people against their will, 1 might say, so that they planned the route over provincial lands, and I suggest that it was one of very few, a very rare situation, where a federal department actually came in and planned and laid out the route for a provincial, project on provincial lands, federal people having no say or no instance there. MR. MYRDEN: It would have been eminently stupid not to have done it, would it not? MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Speaker, I do not think so. I do not think so. We were talking in terms of provincial lands.

We were talking about a transmission line that had to be built. We could have gone ahead and built it ourselves having regard, shall we say, to the fact it was a proposed park area. There was no reason for us to hold up for six months and drag National Parks into it. If we did that Mr. Speaker, then I suggest again, that it is an instance of good faith on our part.

April 24, 1970 Tape /1629 Page 3 MR. MYRDEN: Just an occasional glimmer of sense. MR. CALLAH~~= Now Mr. Speaker - well that is more than we normally get from the other side. It was an occasional one a few minutes ago, and once again I thank the hon. gentleman. Now Mr. Speaker, the question has been raised and I read again in the "Evening Telegram" today as a matter of fact, the Editor on Page 7. It says in Paragraph 1, 2, 3, 4 of the Editor's column. "At no time was it intimated that oil concessions were involved until this fact was uncovered and publicized.

" "Then, he says,came the White Paper with its very truculent attitude towards the Federal Government termed by some an untimatum." And then he goes on to say, and the bon. gentleman who gave me his assurance of agreement a few minutes will be interested in this. "At any rate it was an assertion that the Federal Government could have the land and presumably all that is in it in return for a multi- million dollar kind of Disneyland, stretching from Cape Ray to Cape Ball.

Now he says, the whole matter is in slings and we must wait and see what Federal Minister Chretien and his department feel inclined to do about this unexpected situation." Now Mr. Speaker, there are so many inaccuracies in that one paragraph of two, four, six, eight, ten, twelve, fourtee, fifteen lines of type, that I could spend next week discussing it. Take the first sentence. At no time wA• it intimated that oil concessions were involved. Now the hon. the member for St. Barbe South referred to the same thing the other day.

He started off by telling us that, he said on page 1702 of Hansard, "the present administration felt duty bound to investi~ate the possibilities of any mineral wealth within the Park area, and this action I agree with." These are his words. He went on further down Mr. Speaker, he referred to oil, and the suggestion was v~ry much as now has been made by the Editor of the "Evening Telegram," that nobody knew about it. But just as the hon. gentleman said the other day that nobody knew about it, a few minutes later and I am trying to find the place he went on to say that "7 .... 8 ~ ~

April 24, 1970 Tape #629 Page 4 people might have known about this for a hundred years. MR. ROWE: Will the hon. gentleman permit a question? I ask this question because the hon. gentleman was not in the Government, and in fact was not a member of this House at the time that it happened. But I ask him if he does not recall the fact that at least five years ago, a very highly publicized expedition consisting of the Premier and Cabinet Ministers, at least four or five or six Cabinet Ministers - in fact my recollection is that it followed a meeting of the Cabinet at Stephenville.

And we flew down the coast and took helicopters and flew in, in the helicopters and examined the drills at work in that area. And everybody knew who was doing the drilling. It was highly publicized at the time. Hy bon. friend will recall this. It was highly publicized at the time, that this was the Doyle interest who were doing the drilling on concessions that had was been given them there. And in fact we went in there 1· one of the parties, we actually saw not only the drills but the oil being pumped up MR. MYRDEN: That was Parson's Pond. MR. ROWE: It was part of the general area, and it was highly publicized.

MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. ROWE: The point is Mr. Speaker, does not my hon. friend remember that this very fact was highly publicized at the time. MR. CALLAHAN: Yes Mr. Speaker, I am well aware of that. I think in the same year, there had been drilling done in the Cape St. George area, or not in the Cape St. George area, in the Boswarlos area of the Port-au-Port peninsula. Mr. Speaker, the reference I was looking for is on Page 1711 of Hansard for April 8. The bon. gentleman said, "Mr.

Speaker, the great.tragedy of this whole befuddled contoversy has arisen over this oil concession business in the areas of the northern

section of the proposed National Park. From the map supplied in the "Evening Telegram," which came as a surprise to many people4 when it showed that there were at least three concessions given to NALCO back in 1950-51-52. The whole idea which has been confirmed by the Federal Government that no oil rights would 27~9 .

April 24, 1970 Tape #629 Page 5 be considered within a boundary of a national park, seems to have brought this whole idea back before the public and so on." And he goes on to say, "well Sir, we all know the history of oil within the Parsons Pond area but we were greatly surprised that any thought would be entertained by these people to start development south of this concession." Now I do not know quite what that means Mr. Speaker, but as the map on the front page of the "Evening Telegram" indicated, and it was I think, accurate. Two of the five areas, and they are not concession areas.

There is a difference Your Honour. They are fee simple areas. Two of the five areas are south of the border, the northern proposed boundary. One of them straddles the proposed northern boundary, and two are north of it. MR. WELLS: How did these get to be fee simple areas? Everybody thinks it is just exploration areas. MR. CALLAHAN: No Mr. Speaker, they are not concession areas in any way shape or form. They are fee simple areas, which were old oil concession areas. I do not know how many people tried them over the years, back into the 1800's, and in 1952 MR. WELLS: Who had the original fee simple? MR.

CALLAHAN: I do not know. All I do know Mr. Speaker, MR. WELLS: Was it NALCO? MR. CALLAHAN: In any event Mr. Speaker, in 1952, this House passed the Parson's Pond Oil Lands Vesting Act, and vested these lands in the New­ foundland and Labrador Corporation. So they are not MR. WELLS: How did they get the right to do that? MR. CALLAHAN: The House did it Mr. Speaker. I do not know what the background was. I have not searched it, but I know thelegislation exists. And it was confirmed I think in Amendment, the adding of two or five in the next year. In any event I have not gone back to search that. It is the law.

And the fact is that these are fee simple area&. Now two of them are south of the boundary. One of them is on the boundary, and two of them are north of the boundary. Well one of them is 27GO

April 24, 1970, Tape 630, Page 1 -- apb MR. CALLAHAN: Partially north and partially south so MR. MYRDEN: It cannot be partially, you are either in or out, you are not half way there, you are in or out MR. CALLAHAN : Well then Mr. Speaker, if two and one half are north and two and one half are south, the point is that the boundary runs through one of them and two of them are south of it. These are the same areas 1Mr.

Speaker 1this is no surprise, these are the same areas to which my bon. colleague referred to a few minutes ago which were explored in a major way four or five years ago and way back every five, ten, fifteen years 1 suppose for the past hundred years somebody has shown some interest. The fact is that they are there, and the situation, the suggestion that all concessions were hidden because this is what it says, until the fact was uncovered and publicized. They were not bidden Mr.

Speaker, because in the first instance legislation was debated and went through this Rouse, and in the second place so far as the Government of Canada is concerned, 1 do not know about anybody else, anybody who did not know there was exploration going on, anyone who knew that cannot say it was bidden because it was happening. The Government of Canada have known since the beginning that these rights existed. These are the very rights referred to in the letter which my colleague, who is now the Minister of Labour wrote on December 30th. 1966 to the then Federal Minister.

Part of it is quoted on page 4 of the history of the proposal in the White Paper, which says the Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources replied on December 30th.1966 to indicate that while he hoped it would be possible to approve the reservation of an 800 square miles area, there were " matters of importance that must be resolved, which include .timber concessions, mineral exploration, resettlement of communities, and public roads policy." This occured Mr. Speaker, as I have already indicated only because of the escalation in the size of the thing.

Prior to that this was not the problem because, the original twenty to forty and then 120 square mile area did not take in these fee simples. Once it got beyond that it started to take in certain rights, and this is where as I have said earlier in the House, this is where the problems 27G1

Apr1L ~q, 1~/v 1 1~pe u~u, rage £, -- apo really started. Then Mr. Speaker we come to the suggestion, then came the white paper with its very truculent ·· attitude towards the Federal Government, termed by some an ultimatum. Now Mr. Speaker, what we have said in the White Paper, and I refer bon. members to the twenty questions, section, where it deals with the mineral resources.

One of the questi~ns is, "If not to open a mine, what is the Government's intention?" and the answer is, the intention is bargain for a commensurate benefit in return for locking up the resource in the national park, referring to mineral resources.

The next question goes on "Does the Government not consider an national park to be a commensurate benefit?" and the answer is, the Government considers that another wilderness park, in addition to Terra Nova and the presently existing and planned Provincial parks will not confer sufficient benefits on the region or the Province to justify locking up the known resources of minerals, timber and wildlife in the area, not to mention the cost of acquiring private rights and property title. Mr.

Speaker, we have put forward in this document, in this~ite ~aper, the proposition, the claim, the argument if you will, that if areas of Provincial lands, and the resources they contain are required for National purposes, the nation should bear the cost. Mr. Speaker, when we did that, we did not do it lightly, and we did not do it in an unthinking way, we did it because, we felt that, and we still feel that it was not an unreasonable position and indeed, that it was an eminently reasonable one. We have been told that it is blackmail. MR. MYRDEN: Yes, · MR. CALLAHAN: The bon. gentleman says "yes" MR.

MYRDEN: Yes, agreed MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Speaker, we are now told again that it is blackmail, and I ask the House Sir to keep that in mind, because, I intend to deal with it. We are told that it is blackmail, we are told that it is an ultimatum, we are told that we have no business saying these things. 27G2 r

April 24, 1970, Tape 630, Page 3 -- apb Monday March 30th., St. John's Evening Telegram, 11 Two West Coast politicians who have been severe critics of Provincial Government policy on the proposed Bonne Bay National Park, say the park is not a matter of negotiation between the Provincial and Federal Governments. 11 The bon. the member for St. Barbe South is quoted as saying, " It is not up to Mr. Callahan or the Provincial Government to decide what kind of park it will be." He said.

" It will be a national park along the lines of all other National parks which have proven very successful." I wish I could believe that Mr. Speaker. He said, " Be is taking the first steps in a campaign to gain public support and to bring pressure on the Government to do something about the outstanding mineral rights. The further down there is a reference to another gentleman the member of Parliament for Humber - St. Geroges - St. Barbe. Mr. Marshall also said there was nothing for the Province to negotiate except turning over the land with no strings attached.

Everyone in Ottawa is wondering why the Province cannot hand over the land. MR. fl'EAKER (Noel): Order please, Beauchesne page 133, it is not in order to read articles in newspapers, letters or communications emenating from persons outside the House and referring to or commenting on or denying anything said by a member expressing any opinion reflecting on procedures within the Bouse. MR. CALLAHAN: Thank you Mr. Speaker, we are in the same paragraph, and I think one is incomplete without the other. Well then Mr.

Speaker, we go back to Hansard and we find much the same thing in the bon. gentleman's remarks of April 8th. The suggestion again that we should just hand it over and not bargain. So it is blackmail, and it is an ultimatum and call manner of terms of that nature have been used to characterize what we have done. MR. WELLS: Election manifesto, do not forget that one MR. CALLAHAN: Well that has been used as well Sir. Mr. Speaker, what I have here is a brief to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and the National and Provincial Parks Assoeiation-of Canada.

And the National Provincial Parks Association Mr. Speaker, is an association of parks administrators 27G3

April 24, 1970. Tape 630 • Page 4 ~- apb and our director of Provincial parks is a very senior and highly regarded member of it. But so are national parks administrators. On page 3, of this brief. and itlc;ldentally the date on which I received it was the 16th. April, and it is dated the lst.April, and it deals S'Decifically with the provisional master plan for the Kejimkujik National Park. the new National park in Nova Scotia •••••••••••••• 27G 4

}ffi. CALLArUUl: Now on Page 3 it has this to say, and I think is a general principle, although it deals directly with the netv National Park proposed to Nova Scotia. "Hith this Kejimkujik, being the first National Park to have been established in ei~ht years, in all Canada, it is hard to escape the conclusion that the Government, and this is the Gevernment of Canada, is taking a far too rigid step over the conditions it has laid down as a prerequisite to negotiating with the Provinces for new National Parks.' ' Now Mr. Speaker, let me read that again, because it is important.

"l.Jith Kej imkuj ik being the first National Park to have been established in eight years, it is hard to escape the conclusion that the Government, meaning the Government of Canada, is taking a far too rigid step over the conditions it has laid down as a prerequisite to nep:otiating tvith the Provinces for new National Parks. It should be possible to provide great incentives than are now presumm to exist, for the provinces to transfer the needed areas 1:..'ithout in anyway compromising with respect to ··criterion .for national parks set out in the National Parks Policy statement.

Ne•' and imaginat'tve thinklng tvill he needed if there is to be any hope of meeting furture National Parks needs., . So what this document says, Mr. Speaker, is that unless the Government ,, of Canada are prepared th:·wordsth~t are used here, areto provide r.reater ,, incentive; .• We say to provide commensurate benefits, if we have to give up great~gobs of our resources, then it cannot be expected that there will be more national parks in Canada. Now I did not know, Hr.

Speaker, when the '\-Thite Paper tvas being prepared or written or finalized, that the ~ational and Provincial Parks Association was going to make that statement. But, I am very glad they have because it confirms what we have long felt, and they have made it. }ffi. WELLS: Would the ~!inister permit a question? MR. CALLAHAN: Yes, ~lr. Speaker. MR. WELLS: Is he aware that the hon. l1r. Chretien announced in Ottawa today, thi~ afternoon, that the C~vernment of Canada prepared to proceed with the park forthwith as soon as the Government of this Province turns over the land? 27G5

HR. CALLAHA.J.~: No, :Nr. Speaker, I am not aware of that, but I will tell the House this that I spoke with the minister on yesterday morning, and that I had been in touch with various seniors of his officials, within the past ten days, and that I nave told them what I have told the House this day. Namely, Sir, that we are prepared to sign an agreement immediately. We hope we will be able to sign an agreement by this summer providing we can at a agreement in principal and in substantial detail on the proposal we have made. ~IR. WELLS: How many airports? ~.

CALLNUU~: They are studing the proposal and my feeling is, Mr. Speaker, that we "Till have an agreer.tent. And I do not kno"r what the question was to the minister in that other place today, and I do not know what his answer was. But I would say that his answer was in accordance with the discussions we have been having. MR. WELLSl : The question was what was• the Governr.tent 's position on the park? And that was his answer. MR. CALLAHA.J.'l: I say that Hr. Speaker, because MR. HELLS: I have not heard the detail that is the information I have. ~IR. CALLAHAN: I say that Mr.

Speaker, because I have had very close contact with the hon. ~· lr. Chretien over the past year and a-half. I have found him to be most co-operative, and I expect that he and I will continue to get on well indeed, it is my hope that very shortly, and I should tell the Royse this, it has been suggested very shortly when he and his senior officials have had an opportunity, because really Mr. Speaker, and I think the House knows this, Mr.

Chretien and certain of his officials have been virtually varitably snowed under the past couple of weeks on the Northern Pollution Bill and problems with legislation repecting Arctic Territory. t>ben I spoke with one senior official about five days ago, he told me then, that it was his feeling that within a week or so, the minister would be able to review what his officials findings had been. I have the impression that the findings were not unfavourable and that perhaps, verY soon after that, as I had indicated would certainly be the pleasure of this Government, the minister mi~ht be in a position

--. ·-~- .., __ l-IR, CALLAHAN: to come and ' visit us, and to sit dmm in St. John's and perhaps iron out the details of that agreement. And I have extended that invitation, }!r. Speaker, and I sincerely hope that the minister will be able to do that. HR. lAYRDEN: Would the minister permit a question, Hr. Speaker? Can the minister tell the House now today that after this last year and a-half they have been discussing a silica mine in Bonne Bay, can the minister tell the House whether it is going ahead, or whether it has been shelved? MR. CALLAHAN: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman said I think in this House, ,, I believe, I was not here, or perhaps I was, I think he said, he had been never so mad in all his life, as ~~hen he read the \\rhite raper. And that statement is somewhere in Hansard. Mr. Speaker, I do not know if he has read it or not, but if he has it there, or if he has not, I can send him over this copy if he would like to look, but I would like to have it back, it is the only one I have on my desk. On page 4, of the twenty questions, what is the result of the examination of the mineral area of east arm and any other mineral examination?

Answer, ~~~~<)) the . result is that the examinations produced in one area~evidence of hi~h grade silica up to 1 million tons. And indications of similar reserves, in several . other nearby deposits, and in addition areaial survey~ discovered signs of minerals in tl.renty-three areas within the proposed boundary. Hhat owns is the present value per ton? ~fuo/the rights? Answer, approxiamtely $6.00 1 and the Crown. Is it the intention of the Government to open a silica mine? Is this what the hon. gentleman· . is asking? Answer, there are plans. · to open a mine.

The Government's purpose in conducting the mineral examination was to evaluate a knm.rn resource for which there is a good market demand. This has been done and the existence of a known commodity was many millions of dollars has been approved. If not to open a mine, no, Mr. Speaker, it is not six, MR. WELLS: One million tons at $6.00 a ton. MR. CALLAHAN: It is not six, Hr. Speaker, I will go back to a previous answer, the result is that the examination produced in one area, evidence of hi~h grade silica up to one million tons, and indication of similar reserves in several other nearby deposits.

Now the opinion r,iven:· me by the Hineral 27G7

AprJ.J. .l.'+tn J.':JIV .rape o.a MR. CALLAHAN: Resources Branch of the department, is that the likelihood well is almost unthinkable - MR. RO\iE: But even $6million is not to be sneezed at or is it? MR. CALLAHAN: Well I do not think it is to be sneezed at Mr. Speaker. lfuat I am saying is, the opinion I have is virtually unthinkable, that the other reserves would not be, and they obviously have riot been assayed, but the earth is the same, the stra~igity of the area is the same, it is very close by and the possibility that the other area will be ~qaally as good, is extremely strong.

It is practically taken for granted. So it is four or five times, MR. HELLS: Gross Marne may be gold too. MR. CALLAHAN: l·lell, Mr. Speaker, I have information,the hon. !!entleman might be interested in, sometime, to show that if we were to go dotvn to Signal Hill and you know, dig it up in wheelbarrows and assay it, you would find Sir a bit of gold, silver and other things there. So that is not as funny and ridiculous as the hon. gentleman may think. Well, then Hr. Speaker, it is not to open a mine. \fuat is the Government's intention?

The intention is to bargain for a commensurate benefit in return for locking up the resource of the National Park. Mr. Speaker to carry on with the point I was making before the question. That is what the National Park and Provincial Parks people said. That is there brief to the Hinister. But unless the Government of Canada

MR. CALLAHAN: Government of Canada give some incentive, unless they give what we call commensurate benefit they should not expect too many more national parks in this country. Mr. Speaker, I should like also to refer to MR. MURPHY: What did you say, they should not expect too many more national parks, referring to the National Government? MR. CALLAHAN: read it again? MR. MURPHY: Exactly. Was the bon. gentleman not here? Would he like me to Three or four years ago the big cry was up that we were going to be the only Province with two great National parks. I thougkwe were looking for the National park at that time.

Now the Federal Government are looking for it. Hl. CALLAHAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman apparently was not here, he was not listening. If he was here he was not here in spirit. MR. MURPHY: I just asked the bon, minister to repeat what he just said. MR. CALLAHAN: I said Mr. Speaker, I read from the brief, the Government is taking a far too rigid stance over the conditions it has laid down MR. MURPHY: Provincial Government? MR. CALLAHAN: No, the Federal Government.

The Government of Canada is taking a far too rigid stance over the conditions it has laid down as a prerequisite to negotiating with the Provinces for new National parks. It should be possible to provide greater incentives that are now presumed to exist, presumed to exist, for the Province to transfer the needed area~ without in any way compromising with respect to criterior for National parks. MR. MURPHY: That is what I was referring to HR.

CALLAHAN: And I think it is fair to infer from that that unless as we have proposed prior to this, the Government of Canada provide greater incentives, in other wo;ds, greater reasons, unless they come up with some commensurate benefit as to why we should hand over areas and their resources, you know, they should not expect .that they will be knocked down in the rush by Provinces to get national parks built. HR. HURPHY: That is what I am saying, we have completely gone about now, four

April 24, 1970, Tape 632, Page 2 -- apb of five years ago we were being done a great favour by the Federal Government to have a second National p~rk. Now we are doing them the favour by allowing them to have it. ~· CALLAHAN: That Mr. Speaker, I think is why the setting says it should be possible to provide greater incentives than are now presumed to exist. That is why I pointed it out, because it is a presumption, that the benefits exist. If the hon. gentleman will read this he will see that the

section on the economics which show that the benefits do not exist as they have been.presumed to exist. MR. MURPHY: My favourite bedtime reading that is. MR. WELLS: Would the Minister permit a further question on the park? Would he tell the House why the Government is so reluctant to convey such properties to the Federal Government that might possibly have minerals in them when they conveyed them wholesale to Dayle? John C.Doyle by virtue of these Acts. Originally through NALCO, but Doyle got that totally. MR. CALLAHAN: There is a very simple answer Mr. Speaker MR. WELLS: Why? MR.

CALLAHAN: That if we convey the properties to the GOvernment of Canada, they are locked up forever. The resources stay in the ground. If somebody develops them, and .all we have to do is look at Labrador City, or Wabush, or Baie Verte, or any mining operation you want to look at. It is a $327 million a year industry in this Province. It pays out about $50 million a year in wages. BON. F.W.ROWE (Minister of Education): The concessions to Doyle and all the oth~rs were conditional MR. CALLAHAN: Well exactly, 'that is true MR. WELLS: They are not conditional, they are fee simple MR. CALLAUAN: But the difference Mr.

Speaker, that is not to be confused with concession agreements. A concession agreement gives a company the right·usually for four years to explore a defined area. provided they spend a minimum amount of .aney a year doing it. When the f~ur years is up. unless they have found something which will cause them to take a development license and put in as was done in Labrador, hundreds of millions of dollars to develop it. they loose it and somebody else gets it. That is the difference. 2770

Now Mr. Speaker, to carry on with the point because I think it is important, the Journal of the National and Provincial rarks Association of Canada, February 1969, page 18, there is an

article planning a Canadian National Parks System, and it is written by Lloyd Brooks formerly chief of the planning division, National and Historic Parks Branch, I should addfof the Government of Canada. MR. SMALLWOOD (J.R.): Who publishes this magazine? MR. CALLAHAN: This is a publication Mr. Speaker of the Journal of the National and Provincial Parks Association which is the organization of National and Provincial Parks Administrators, and as I said a few minutes ago, our Provincial Parks director is one of the most senior and highly regarded men in this organization. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is Mr. Chafe? MR.

CALLAHAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Brooks I believe was the chief of planning when the Gros Horne proposal passed as I have indicated, or the Government have indicated in the document passed into the area of the FRED program consideration. A few years ago he was in charge of the planning for all national parks. On page 18, he says " needless to say, in all cases it is this first condition of Provincial asquisi~ion and release of land to the Federal Government at no loss, that is the major stumbling block in setting aside a new National park." I will read it again.

Needless to say, in all cases it is this first condition of Provincial acquisition and release of land to the Federal Government at no loss (I think at no COST would have been a more appropriate word, or more understandable) it is this condition that is the major stumbling block in setting aside a new National park. The he goes on," the view often expressed MR. SMALLWOOD: Before the hon. minister goes on, I did not quite follow that.

Is the argument that one of the principle obstacles now in the way of getting national parks, one of the obstacles in Canada's way, in the way of the Canadian Government, is a reluctance of Provincial Governments to pass over large blocks of Provincial land without any compensation. Is that more or less what that sentence said? MR. CALLAHA.I.~: I think that is a fair and accurate

interpretation Mr. Speaker. Let me go back, Mr. Brooks is talking about a National park system, and the 2771

April 24, 1970, Tape 632, Page 4 -- apb growth of the National J,>ark System, and he says "The National Parks Sys