Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 72 (35th Legislature, 3rd Session)

35-3-72

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Third Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS {HANSARD) 39-40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis c. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLI No. 72 • 1 :30 p.m., TUESDAY, MAY 26, 1992 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Msnltobe ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LA THLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage Ia Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonn et Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Veren drye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

3785 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 26, 1992 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PR ESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Leonar d Evans (Brandon East) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Edward A. Kostecki, Robert Thompson, Joan Wallace and others req uesting the gove rnm ent consi der reviewing the fund ing of the Brand on General Hospital to avoid layoffs an d cutbacks to vital services. Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Wayne Johnson, Florence MacCollum, Tanis Suitters and others requesting the Minister of Family Services (Mr.

Gilleshammer) consider a one-year moratorium on the closure of the Human Resources Opportunity Centre in Selkirk. PR ESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Cha irperson of Committees): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), thatthe report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPO RTS Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister charged with the administration of The Liquor Control Act): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to present the 68th Annu al Report of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission for the fiscal year April 1, 1990 , to March 31 , 19 91 . ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Economic Growth Average Weekly Incomes Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, in 19 90, this government was 10 out of 10 in terms of average weekly earnings in Canada for any province. In 199 1, we were second last for average weekly earnings in Canada. Today, the March 1992 statistics over 199 1 indicate a couple of things.

One is we are continuing to be second last in the country in terms of average weekly earnings for families in Manitoba. Secondly, we have in fact declined in March over February in terms of average weekly earnings for families in the province of Manitoba. I would like to ask the Premier about the impact of this decline and our status of weekly earnings being either ninth or 1Oth. What result has there been from this decline in weekly earnings? What has been the result of job loss and economic activity in the province of Manitoba with this change? * (1 335) Hon.

Gary Fllmon (Premier): The question by the Leader of the Opposition gives me an opportunity to talk about attitude and approach to a topic such as this. Of course, we all know that the master of gloom an d doom over there, the Leader of the Opposition, always takes the negative side. He always takes the most negative point of view.

What he would find very interesting, I am sure, is the statistics that were published recently that said that Manitobans on a per family income basis, after taxes, rank fourth best in the nation, next only to Ontario, British Columbia and Alberta, provinces with much larger populations and much larger economies than ours. Number four in after-tax per family income in this country are Manitobans.

The reason is that this government has been concentrating on keeping their costs down, that for five straight budgets, this governmen t has not raised any major taxes in this province, and as a result, Manitobans are actually better off today than they have been in the past because of the fact that we take less away from them of their earnings. As a result, they rank fourth best in the nation in terms of whatthey have for buying power, for supporting their families and for quality of life-fo urth best in the country, Mr. Speaker.

3786 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 26, 1992 Employment Statistics Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : Well, Mr. Speaker, we had the last place results of gross domestic product last year which measures all economic activity. Our dropout in our labour force was twice the national average. Our poverty rate is now the highest in this country, and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) last week told us in this House that this is a deliberate economic strategy of the provincial government to lower incomes, to lower purchasing power, and thatthis, in turn, would result in greater economic opportunity.

I would like to ask the Premier why we have 17 ,000 fewer people working today than we did 12 months ago, and are those 17 ,000 people better off, as the Premier suggested? Maybe these results are only positive in Tuxedo because in the rest of the province, we are getting greater unemployment and less purchasing power with the decline in average income. Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we know that the politics of envy and jealousy that are preached by the Leader of the Opposition are the kinds of things and the attitude that he and his New Democratic colleagues enjoy.

They always want to preach that kind of thing and tear down anybody who has been successful in business or has been successful in opportunities in this province. But, Mr. Speaker, the figures that I was talking about are not relative to any one district or any one constituency. They say that the average per family income after taxes in this province, the province of Manitoba, is fourth best. That is everyone. That includes those in rural Manitoba, northern Manitoba, urban Manitoba, an d wherever they live-that is everyone. That is what he should be interested in.

When he asks about job losses in this country, then he should perhaps do a little bit of reading and research to fin d out what is going on in other provinces. He should perhaps find out why there were 260,000 jobs lost in NDP Ontario. That might give him some clue as to what is happening in the whole world on an economic front. It might give him some idea that there is a recession that has affected, not only this province, not only this nation, but indeed the entire world. That is why 260,000 people fewer are employed in the province of Ontario.

I can als o tell him that the things that this government has been doing have been to lessen the burden on people so that individual families in Manitoba can have after-tax income, opportunities for a reasonable lifestyle that rank them fourth best in the country. Those are the kinds of things that he should be interested in if he is truly interested in people in this province. * (1 340) Average Weekly Incomes Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): We are not talking about envy here, Mr. Speaker. We are talking about equal opportunities. We are talking about the 58,000 people that do not have jobs.

We are talking about the thousands of people who are on social assistance. We are talking about the aspirations of our youn g people and the opportunities for our young people. That is the question before us. The Premier has mentione d average weekly earnings. He kn ows that his comparisons are wrong in that when everybody is inclu ded in the labour income num bers, Manitoba's labour income went down. It went down because of the higher number of people who are unemployed. In terms of average weekly earnings, it is only for those people who are working.

Please do not let the Premier compare apples an d oranges in a statistical response here today. I would ask the Premier: In light of the fact that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) said last week that it is a de liberate strategy of the government to lower incomes as a way of being competitive and creating jobs, in light of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that we are 1 0 out of 10 two years ago, nine out of 10 last year, and now we have had a decline in average income for families, what is the impact on the 17 ,000 who are unemployed and the 55,000 who are unemployed in the province of Manitoba? Hon.

Gary Fllmon (Premier): Firstly, I reject categorically the comments that he alleges were made by the Minister of Rnance. As usual, Mr. Speaker, he is misrepresenting the facts. The Leader of the Opposition does not und erstand that

whereas incomes may have gone up more in other provinces, so did their taxes, an d the taxes not only took away the increase but took away more of the increase. When New Democrats say that they want to have people earning more money, that is so that they can

May 26, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 3787 tax away more money. That is exactly what has happened in provinces throughout this country. As a result, in this province, since we did not increase major taxes-in fact, we have consistently been selectively reducing taxes-people are still better off, that after taxes on a per family basis, we rank fourth best in the nation because we have not been taking away money by way of punitive taxes that New Democrats and other administrations in this country have. Economic Growth Government Strategy Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East ): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance. On Friday next, Statistics Canada will release the first quarter estimates of economic growth for Canada, and some economists are predicting that the first quarter will either be negative or cl ose to zero. The Conference Board economists have now told us that Manitoba's 19 92 growth rate will probably be invisible. Mr. Speaker, we are in a double-dip recession, largely because of the lack of consumer demand which is the result of high unemployment and fear of unemployment.

My question then to this Minister of Finance: When will this government do something to fight the recession and, most specifically, when will this government do something to stimulate economic demand in this province? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I am well aware that the Conference Board will be coming out with their spring forecast, indeed, I am led to believe in a formal fashion tomorrow. Mr.

Speaker, let me assure the member and indeed all members of this House and all people in this province that Manitoba will be ranked third with respect to that release, and indeed our growth will be positive on a nominal side. It will be above the Canadian average, and it will be the third best in the nation. I would think members opposite would take some satisfaction in that, in the sense that we are growing above the national average. Municipal Public Works Programs Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East) : Mr. Speaker, I am sure it is going to be below the forecast of this Minister of Finance.

Given that many mun icipalities are unable to finance required public infrastructure, and given the prospect of continuing high levels of unemployment in this province, would this government now finally look seriously at establishing an incentive program for municipalities to encourage them to step up their public works program and put people to work in producing useful and needed projects-bridges, streets, sewer water systems, et cetera? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, there is so much to rebut in the member's

preamble. Firstly, let me tell him that I am led to believe that the Canadian forecast of growth is going to be dropped from 2.2 down to a level of around 1 percent, so I can say, he challenges this government for having missed the mark on its forecast with respect to the '92 growth rate, but I am here to tell you, we are probably closer to the forecast than any province in Canada. Mr. Speaker, with respect to infrastructure renewal, there is only one provincial government in Canada that has held the capital spending in su ppor t of infrastructure thr oug hout all the provinces.

Now, if the member wants to talk about the Southern Development Initiative, if he wants to talk about the RED I program, if he wants to talk about the $5-million commitment to the City of Winnipeg, if he wants to ta lk about a hundr ed- million dollar-plus Highways budget, and if he wants to compare it across any other province in the country, he will realize only one province in Canada has maintained its commitment to capital, and that is the province of Manitoba. That was within the budget that the member opposite voted against, Mr. Speaker. * (1 345) Government Strategy Mr.

Leonar d Evans (Brandon East) : The Conference Board in Canada, senior economists said that our growth rate could be invisible this year. We are still in a major recession, Mr. Speaker, and therefore I ask this Minister of Finance: Does he have a program , an effective plan to fight the recession and com bat unempl oyment in this province, or is he admitting that they have no plan? He talks about creating a better business climate, but business cannot sell all of its current output. So what we need to look at is the demand side and not

3788 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 26, 19 92 the supply side of the equation. When are we going to stimulate demand in this economy? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): A full response to that question was provided by the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) in response to the question put forward by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer). Mr. Speaker, the first responsibility, we believe, to fight this recession is to keep taxes down and also to provide more disposable income to the families of this province.

Over our budgets, five of them accum ulative, Manitoba families now have a hundred million dollars more in their pockets to spend in the economy. That is the first issue, not like other provinces where indeed maybe the weekly earnings are increasing a little bit more, but where taxes, significant taxes, are taking even more. Mr. Speaker, I would also say to the member, we also have done every thin g we could as a government within the restraint of the revenues that are coming down to us, not at the rate of 8 or 10 percent, as the former government had, but in the area of 1 or 2 percent.

We are doing everything we can to maintain the expenditu res on the capital side, the job-creation areas, in $300 million in this present budget, $1 00 million in Highways alone, compared to every other province in western Canada which is slashing, Mr. Speaker, money out of their capital expenditures, particularly in Health and Government Services. Our government is doing many of the things that the member opposite would want us to do; that is, to maintain the level of expenditure and capital, to maintain the infrastru cture so badly needed in the city and indeed in the province as a whole.

Economic Growth Employment Statistics Mr. Reg Alcock {O sborne): Mr. Speaker, sometimes you get so far down, every way seems like up. I would like to tell the Finance minister that he is correct. Manitoba will have the third highest growth in this country in the coming year, as predicted by the Conference Board. That is a full 2.1 percent below what was predicted just a few months ago, and I will share those numbers with the Finance minister if he has not received them yet. The other thing though that has happened, Mr.

Speaker, is that the em ployment growth in this province dropped by 2.4 percent last year, and the Conference Board is now predicting that it will drop a further 2 percent, two full percentage points. I would like to ask the Finance minister why. * (1 350) Hon. Clayton Manness {M inister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, as one employer in the province, but certainly not as the only employer in the province, maybe the member would like to ask that question indeed of the employing companies and industries in our province.

Maybe he would like to ask them whether or not the government of Manitoba is on the right course in doing what it has been doing over the course of the last four or five budgets. If he had the courage to ask the business community, the people who for the most

part create the jobs in this province, he would be told in no uncertain terms, Mr. Speaker, that the course and the path being followed by this government is the only path that can be followed. It is the only one, given the fact that government no longer has the capacity to go and borrow, in an unlimited fashion, money. Now, the member says there is a $500 million deficit, Mr. Speaker.

The reality is that is equivalent-it is a $300 million deficit, but indeed the $500 million that he talks about is basically the interest on the borrowings, on the debt that he accomplished and his members accomplished when they were in government. So I say to the member that when he says why, l think it would be better that he put that question to the major employers of this province, the business community, and they will tell him it is because we are in a recession.

It is because the U.S. trade figures are not picking up in a fashion that is needed to bring us out of the recession that we all would like to be out of. Mr. Alcock: If we are coming out of the recession, why have we lost 15 ,000 jobs in the first quarter of this year, and why is employment in this province predicted to drop another 2 percent? Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, the answer is the same. There is major restructuring going on in industry. There is major competitiveness coming to a point wher e , inde ed, prod uction is being maintained at levels necessitating in some cases fewer employees.

That is part of the restructuring that is taking place.

May 26, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 3789 It is unfortuna te when one looks at the impact on employment num bers, but that is obviously one of the results of the restructuring that has taken place to put our firms on a competitive footing vis-a-vis other jurisdictions in a North American context. Mr.

Speaker, the other solution, of course, was to follow what the member opposite would have us do, and that was to build these massive walls at the border and try to supply only ourselves under the belie f th at because we were Canadian or Manitoban, somebody outside of this jurisdiction would buy our goods because we were nice people. The reality is, it does not work that way. You either produce a product that is competitive, or indeed you do not produce at all. Retail Sales Tax Statistics Mr. RegAicock(Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Finance minister could share with us his retail sales tax increases for the first quarter. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I do not have those numbers with me at this point in time. I am prepared to share that information with the member, and I will report to the House this week. Trucking Industry Operating Authority Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, motor carriers' operating authorities are privileges given by the province to legitimate trucking companies in this province.

Since at least 19 90, a Winnipeg firm has been impersonating a motor carrier in Manitoba. This company has no trucks and no authorities to operate in Manitoba, yet has been listed on bills of lading as a carrier, enabling them to operate and collect carrier fees from customers. My question is for the Minister of Highways and Transportation. Why has this minister allowed this illegal practice to continue, costing Manitoba jobs and legitima te Manitoba trucking companies business opportunities? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr.

Speaker, we have the Motor Transport Board that adjudicates the licences and authorities basically that are issued in this province, and I have to indicate my strong support for the chairman of the Motor Transport Board who has done a very capable job for many years. If there is a specific issue that the member wishes to address, I certainly would welcome the particulars and get the information for him. Mr. Reid: I will be pleased to share this information with the minister.

Since this minister has the power to act, why has the mini ster 's de pa rtm ent been allo wing out-of-province carriers to lease their operating authorities to nonauthorized companies? Mr. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of what the member is talking about, but I am prepared to take the issue up with the chairman of the Motor Transport Board to find out exactly what is going on.

I also want to ind icate at this time that the Motor Transport Board and the position of the Manitoba government has been very consistent in terms of protecting the interests of our carriers-! think seven out of 13 national carriers that are headquartered in Manitoba. We are very possessive in trying to protect that kind of industry for Manitobans. Mr. Reid: That is why I raise these questions, because those jobs are so important to Manitobans.

Will this minister ensure that these companies that are operating without authorities in this province of Manitoba will not just receive $250 fines, but the full force of the law will be brought to bear on these companies that are operating without authorities in this province, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, I am prepared to take this issue up with the chairman of the Motor Transport Board, and whatever the law will allow to be done, we will make sure that it is addressed that way. • (1 355) Manitoba Housing Authority Internal Audit Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr.

Speaker, for several weeks now, the Minister of Housing has had the results of an internal audit of the former Winnipeg Housing Authority on his desk. Now it is part of the Manitoba Housing Authority. I would like to ask the minister: What was in that internal audit, and what is he doing about it? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing ) : Mr. Speaker, perhaps the member for Burrows would like to expand upon what internal audit he is referring to.

3790 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 26, 1992 Mr. Martindale: Well, if I am allowed another

preamble, I could tell the minister this is an audit of overtime that was done because four employees claimed $1 1 ,000 in overtime, but because concerns were raised, the overtime was not paid. His department did an audit. I would like to know what recommendations or findings were made and what action was taken. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, the matter the member refers to came to my attention several weeks ago. At my request, the internal auditor looked into the situation and found no wrongdoing and made cer tain rec omme ndations as to pay ment of overtime.

It was my decision, along with the senior staff of the department, to not pay any overtime. Mr. Martindale: I would like to ask the minister why no action was taken against these employees, since it is my under standing that logs were kept, after the fact, of overtime and that people were duplicating requests for overtime of hours not worked, and yet three of those four employees were promoted to the new Manitoba Housing Authority. Has the minister considered those facts, and what has he done about them 7 Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Speaker, the purpose of any auditor is to presumably look into the facts of the matter and provide that information to those in decision-making authority. That is exactly what happened. The auditor reported, said there was no wrongdoing -no wrongdoing, Mr. Speak er-made certain recommendations with respect to the question of the overtime logs, in effect, and people promoted-no one was promoted in these situations. Three of the four employees, in fact, all four employees have positions with the new Manitoba Housing Authority after following due process of competition. Internal Audit Tabling Request Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Since the minister says there was no wrongdoing, would he table the internal audit so that we could have a look at it? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, there are the personal interests of the people involved here, the employees who were involved and so on. The auditor indicated no wrongdoing, so I am not prepared to expose those people to ridicule by members opposite, particularly the member for Burrows, accusing them of something for which no proof has been garnered after an internal audit. Mr.

Speaker, that member should be ashamed of raising this kind of issue in the House. Aboriginal Child and Family Services Public Inquiry Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (L eader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, for weeks an inquest in Brandon has been hearing the very sad story of how a youn g boy comm itted suicide because he apparently was lost in the cracks of the child welfare system in the province of Manitoba. Yesterday, Dr. Charles Ferguson, a director of Winnip eg's Chil d Protec tion Ce ntre and a well-k nown authority on the issues of child protection, testified. He had some very frightening things to say.

Among what he had to say-and I want to quote: that workers who challenge political leaders or local child welfare committees are frequently sacked. Mr. Speaker, the aboriginal com mu nities themselves have been calling for a public inquiry on the involvement of the leadership of aboriginal communities into child welfare cases. Will the Premier now overrule his Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) and call for such a public inquiry? * (1 400) Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, the member is correct.

There is an ongoing inquest in Brandon which has a num ber of presenters coming forward and all of us, of course, are following the details that come out from there and note a lot of contradictory testimony that is coming forward. We are in the middle of that process, and we are prepared to allow that process to take place and reach its conclusion. I would remind the member, and I have stated before, I believe in Estimates, that I have been in contact with the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs and, particularly, Chief Jerry Fontaine who is the chairperson of the chiefs' committee on child and family services.

They had put together a task force a number of weeks ago to look at Child and Family Services' issues and, in particular, to deal with the issue of governance which I believe is one of the

May 26, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 3791 problems that has been highlighted by aboriginal groups. I have been in contact with Chief Jerry Fontaine, both in person and by letter, and while that process is going slower than I had hoped it would, certainly my attitude is to allow that process to go forward. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. S peaker, the chiefs have called for a public inquiry. It is this government that is refusing to convene one. Dr. Ferguson also went on to say and I quote: Many children, and particularly aboriginal children, are suffering horribly.

H e said that Family Services' officials have exacerbated the problem by refusing to intervene in cases to avoid confrontations with aboriginal agencies. It, the department, in the last 10 years, has been really almost pathologically benevolent toward the aboriginal system he said, addi ng: Officials justify the hand s-off approach because of the push for aboriginal self-government. Mr. Speaker, self-government does not permit, under any circumstances, children to be abused.

Will this mini ster now investigate his own department to ensure that there is not a benevolent approach being conducted in his department toward aboriginal agencies and aboriginal agencies are held accountable, as all child welfare agencies are to be held accountable? Mr. Glll eshammer: Mr. Speaker, many of those agencies are no w ce lebra ting their 1Oth anniversaries.

I indicated in my first answer that out of that testimony in Brandon, a lot of contradictions are coming forward, and as noted by some journalists, contradictions not only within that tes timony, but also contr adic tions with the information brought forward in the AJI, which ind icated that these were the leading child welfare agencies across this nation. I can tell you that we do have other provinces and other jurisdictions who are currently looking at the manner in which these agencies operate.

The agencies are a product of a tripartite agreement with the federal government, the native bands and the provincial government. Certainly, in the formative years, I believe, and there are those here who have more history with child welfare and those agencies than I do, but in the early years, those agencies were formed and allowed to grow under the auspices of self-government. I can tell you in recent years and recent months that we have taken an attitude that when there are questions that come up to do with the agencies, we seriously look at them, work with the staff of- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mrs.

Carstalrs: Mr. Speak er, ther e is no contradiction in what Dr. Charlie Ferguson is saying. There is nobody in this House who will deny that this man is a clear expert in his field when it comes to issues of child protection. He says very clearly that politics is being put before the issues of child protection. Will this minister now take some leadership and ensure that child protection is the first and only issue of his department and not political gamesmanship? Mr.

Gll leshammer: I can assure you when I said there were contradictions comin g out of the hearings in Brandon that I was not challenging the integrity of Dr. Charlie Ferguson. I was saying that looking at the testimony that has occurred over the la st six to eigh t wee ks, the re have been contradictions. We, and I as minister of the department, are very concerned about some of the stories that are coming out of that particular hearing. We are prepared to allow the hearings to proceed and to look at the recommendations that are brought forward at the end of those hearings.

I say to the memb er that we have been active with the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs which has put together a task force to look specifically at the governance issue with the agencies, but also to look at service delivery issues as well. We have offered to work with the chiefs and with that particular committee to provide support to it, to have this task force go ahead and do its work. Core Area Initiative Replacement Agreement Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): My question is for the Minister of Urban Affairs.

Last June, the Minister of Urban Affairs told the House that negotiations for a new Core Area Initiative were proceeding well. On December 10 , he told the House that he hoped to sign an agreement of under stand ing within 30 days and that a new agreement would be in place by April 1 . In March, he told the House that within the next little while he hoped to conclude an agreement. Last

3792 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 26, 19 92 month, the minister once again stated he hoped to conclude his discussions in the very near future. Mr. Speaker, time is running out. Has the minister finished his discussions, and can he finally tell us when he will sign an agreement? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, what I told the member for Wolseley the last time she asked this question was that we are not prepared to sign an agreement just for the sake of signing an agreement. Mr. Speaker, we could have done that a year ago.

We want to have the best possible agreement to provide the best possible services to the people who are the most in need. That is what we are negotiating at the present time. We will continue to do that to ensure that we have those kinds of services and the money to back them up for the people of the inner city of Winnipeg because that is our commitment. Ms. Friesen: Is there any connection between the obvious federal desire to get out of urban affairs on a constitutional basis and the absence of a new core area agreement? Have we, in fact, been watching for the last year, Mr. Speaker, a giant confidence trick?

Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, we are attempting to negotiate with our partners, the federal government and the City of Winnipeg, an appropriate agreement that will provide the kinds of services that are needed and necessary by the people of the inner city of Winnipeg. Mr. Speaker, we are continuing to do that, and we are hopeful that we will reach a satisfactory conclusion to the benefit of all of the partners. Public Consultations Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Is the minister still com mitted to the public consu ltation that he promised publicly last November? Could he tell us when that will begin? Hon.

Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, yes, we are still committed to a public consultation process, but until such time as we have at least the basic framework finalized, there is not mu ch poi nt in conti nuing on with ra ising expectations in the community. When we have that framework realized and we have the concu rrence of the partners in the agreement, we will then conduct the public hearing process. Impaired Driving Third -Party Benefits Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation.

This government has prided itself for many years for taking a tough stance on drinking and driving. However, despite this, the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) and the minister responsible for MPIC have refused to do away with a loophole for impaired drivers under the MPIC regulations. Under

Part 4 of the reg ula tions, im paired driver s, unl ike unl icensed drivers or drivers driving unlicensed vehicles, do not lose their third-party benefits and re main an ins ur ed for the purposes of the regulations. This means that impaired drivers are effectively dealt with more leniently than any other type of disqualified driver. Why has this government allowed this loophole for impaired drivers to persist? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the admin istration of The Manito ba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker, I am not sure that I agree with the

interpretation that this is a loophole. Mr. Edwards: This matter was brought to the attention of the Minister of Justice some two years ago, and he indicated that he would be reporting back to the House. I assume the minister responsible for MPIC yet today does not have an answer to the question posed.

For the minister again, can the minister tell members of this House how many thousands of dollars have been lost because of MPIC's inability to go after impaired drivers for the damage that they cause on the highways, which right they do not have under the MPIC regulations, a right that they have for other unlicensed drivers but not those driving while impaired? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, no, I do not have that number at my fingertips, but I could certainly attempt to get it. * (1 41 0) Mr.

Edwards: Can the minister give this House any reason, any rationale, that he would support that would provide for impaired drivers to be treated any

May 26, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 3793 less leniently than those driving while unlicensed themselves or driving an unlicensed vehicle? Can he give any reason to support that exception in these regulations, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Cummings: The member has made a number of comments regarding his feeling that this is a loophole or an ina ppropria te coverag e. The Minister of Justice and myself are more than prepared to look at any ways that can go to reducing some of the willingness that people may have to drink and drive, and certainly we want that practice stopped at any cost.

There are certain principles involved in coverage of insurance, and certainly those who are involved in accidents, the recipients of damages certainly expect to receive some coverage. I want to assure the member, Mr. Speaker, that this is not a dead issue, but I do not think it is as simple an issue as the member would like to characterize it. Dauphin Lake Advisory Committee Funding Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, I have a ques tion for the Minister of Natural Resources.

Following on the groundwork that was done by the previous government, the current Minister of Natural Resources appointed the Dauphin Lake Basin Advisory committee. Now after some three years, the mini ste r has sti ll faile d to provide any substantive funding, even though there has been a great deal of dedicat ed work done by these volunteers with an awareness centre with low cost, Mr. Speaker, but certainly monitoring of water quality, a number of good things have been done with very low budget. The minister has avoided any pressure because of the management basin plan that is being prepared.

I want to ask the m inister whether he could indicate when he expects to receive the Dauphin Lake management basin plan, and what funding sources he has identified in his budget for this year, so that projects identified in that plan can begin immediately. Hon. Har ry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I we lcome the opportunity of speaking about the good work that is being done in the Dauphin Lake area.

It really and tru ly is one of the better exam ples of this government's commitment to improving our natural environment, the Department of Agriculture working together with the Department of Natural Resources, local farmers working together with the local community and the various interests around Lake Dauphin, cottage owners, fisheries as well as the sports people. I had a meeting just last week with the senior Water Resources official, Mr. John Toews, with whom I think the honourable member is acquainted.

We are awaiting specific budgetary proposals very shortly, and I will be calling on my colleagues, no tably the Minis ter of Environment (Mr. Cummi ngs) , perhaps with the special Environmental Inn ovations Fund to be of assistance again, as he was in other years, along with programs out of his Special Conservation fund and those of my department. I expect to have some information for him shortly. Mr. Piohman: Mr. Speaker, how does this minister hope to maintain any credibility with the board when he has cut even the meagre support he has given them by cutting a half-time clerical position effective May 31 ?

How can he maintain credibility with the dedicated volunteers on that board when he is cutting even that small amount of support? Mr. Enns: Well, Mr. Speaker, it was my intent, and I am going to carry out my intent, because I did want to commend the honourable member for Dauphin and thank him quite frankly for the support that he has given my ministry, my government, in our attempts in improving the situation at Dauphin, and we are making progress. I would simply ask him to continue that support. A half a clerical position is not going to improve the water quality of Lake Dauphin.

Half a clerical position is not going to necessarily improve a major problem on some of the tributary creeks, rivers and streams that bring the sediment into Lake Dauphin. I know the honourable member understands that. What I have to do is to bring together the resources so we can impact on the field in a way that the Dauphin Lake Advisory committee wants us to, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Nonpolitical Statements Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I seek leave to make a nonpolitical statement. [Agreed)

3794 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 26, 19 92 Mr. Speaker, I am rising in this House to recognize National Missing Children's Week in Canada. As all members are aware, one can pick up a newspaper on any given day and see that virtually every day, week or month has some national significance. However, as we are also aware, most, if not all, pale in comparison to this. No one can ever truly know the horror, loneliness, suffering and the heartache of all involved when a child is missi ng. It is every parent's worst un speakable nightmare.

Organizations such as Child Find Manitoba and its counterparts that exist throughout Canada and North America have done and continue to do a great deal. Their work is known and respected by all involved. Suffice to say that Child Find Manitoba has touched the hearts of many Manitobans already. Sometimes the result is positive and sometimes the en din g is one of tragedy. However, the one dominant fact is that clearly a great deal remains to be done. This week, Child Find Manitoba launched their Green Ribbon of Hope campaign to highlight National Missing Children's Week.

Unfortunately, what precipitated the green-ribbon initiative was the recent tragic death of Kristen French in Ontario. Child Find Manitoba began in 19 85 with several objectives: to assist parents in locating abducted or runaway children; to educate parents, children and re lated agencies in pr eve nti on -awaren ess techniques; to provide support to grieving parents; to create an awareness of the problems associated with missing children in Canada; and to support the maintenance of a national registry of missing children that was set up by the RCMP in 19 86.

Child Find Manitoba has a small staff supported by about 70 volun teers who assist with public education, fingerprinting of children and fundraising. I am sure all of us would love to see a day when organizations such as Child Find are not needed. However, the grim reality is that they are needed more and more with each passing day. I would like to read the proclamation for National Children's Week because it speaks to us all.

WHEREAS over 50,000 children are reported missing each year in Canada; and

WHEREAS Manitoba children and their families are also victims of this tragedy; and

WHEREAS increased awareness of the problem is needed to help reduce the incidence of missing children as well as to help locate missing children; and

WHEREAS this is a commun ity issue, not just a family issue; and

WHEREAS this week is set aside to rekindle new hope in search of missing children. THEREFORE it has been proclaimed that the week of May 25 to May 30, 19 92, is Missing Children's Week in Manitoba, and all Manitobans are urged to remain vigilant in our common desire to protect and nurtur e the youth in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I would ask all members and indeed all Manitobans, private citizens, community groups, unions and the corporate community to not only support Missing Childr en 's Week, but to get involved and help out wherever possible. Ms.

Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): May I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [Agreed] I would like to join the Minister of Family Services in recognizing this week to raise awareness about missing children. The term "missing children" would lead one to think that most of the missing children are missing because of abduction, but the fact is, although this is a troubling issue no matter what the conditions, most of the children who are missing are missing because they are runaways.

I think it is important that we realize there needs to be services available so that these children, when they do run away, have a place to go. I would like to recognize the work of Child Find in trying to help with the problem of missing children, but there is also the need to recognize that there are other services that are required for children who are runaways. Thank you. Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if I might have leave to make a nonpolitical statement. [Agreed) A friend of mine who was a social worker, worked first with the Child Guidance Clinic and then in the south end of the city, used to talk about "disposable" children. He defined them as the children of families who were under such enormous stress today through two parents working, repeated divorces, remarriage, blended families and all of the things that we have become so aware of.

This leads, as the member for the New Democratic Party just mentioned, to a tremendous increase in runaways, a weakening of the attachment to home and family.

May 26, 1992 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 3795 But there has also been a more troubling phenomenon, and that is parental abductions, where kids are actually taken in defiance of legitimate orders of supervision and guardianship, and to a lesser but, unfortunately, growing number of third-party abductions, where people are actually stealing particularly very young children and incorporating them into their own family. What Child Find does, Mr. Speaker, is mobilize the community, remind us that these circumstances exist, that these kinds of issues need to be confronted by the community.

I think all of us in this House owe them a vote of thanks, and we need to congratulate them for the work they do. Thank you. • (1 420) House Business Hon. Clayton Manness {G overnment House Leader) : Before I move the Supply motion, I would like to change the sequence for consideration of Estimates. I have discussed this with the opposition House leaders. I move, seconded by the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr.

Downey) , that the sequence for consideration of Estimates as outlined in Sessional Paper No. 72, tabled on March 20, 19 92, be amen ded in order that the Estimates of the Aboriginal Justice Initiatives, to be considered in the Chamber, follow the Estimates of the Department of Justice; and that the Estimates of Native Affairs, to be considered outside the Chamber, follow the Estimates of Northern Affairs. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable government House leader have leave? Mr. Manness: By leave of the House. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader) : Mr.

Speaker, I just want to indicate that there may be some other adjustments needed to be made. I know there are some dif ficult ies with some upcoming departments, but we certainly have no problem with joining those two departments. Motion agreed to. ORDE RS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness {G overnment House Leader) : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture, and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Education and Training. • (1 430) COMMITTEE OF SUPP LY (Concurrent Sections) AGRICUL TURE Mr. Deputy Chairperson {M arcel Laurende au): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resume consider ation of the Estimates for the Department of Agriculture. When the com mittee last sat, it had been considering item 4.(

c) Veterinary Services Branch on page 16 of the Estimates book. Mr.John Plohman {D auphin) : Just forthe record, the minister had some information from MACC, I believe, that is being prepared. Is it ready now or are we going to get it later today or when? Hon. Glen Findlay {M inister of Agriculture): The information that was requested that we committed to last night, it is not fully ready yet. It may be ready during the course of the afternoon, but I have here what I will table is terms of reference for the Red Meat Forum which we had indicated we would give out last night. Mr.

Plohman: I wanted to ask the minister, briefly, what the current status is of the Larry Williamson game farm and involvement by his department in the health of the animals there. Mr. Findlay: Since approximately last September, we have done something like six to eight inspections under The Animal Diseases Act, and we continue to do those inspections as warranted. I believe there have been two inspections in the last two or three weeks. Mr. Plohman: Are there any orders being issued insofar as the operation and time lines being given to the operator?

3796 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 26, 19 92 Mr. Findlay: Over the course of that period of time, Williamson was operating, then two fellows by the name of Rehman and Wallace came in and operated it for a period of time. They seem to have left the scene and Williamson is back as the oper ator. No order s have been issue d to Williamson at this point in time. Mr. Plohman: Then the latest inspection, since Larry Williamson is back in charge of this, is that, what I gather from the minister, they have taken place since he has been back and everything is satisfactory as far as staff is concerned? Mr.

Findla y: Since Williamson retu rned as operator, two inspections have been done, one as recently as this past weekend. Undoub ted ly, additional inspections will be occurring. Mr. Plohman: The minister may know that this has created a great deal of interest in the area, and so the local media as well are very interested in this issue at all times. They seem to be wanting to know what is happening, and there does not seem to be a lot of information. Everyone is groping to find out whether this game farm is going to continue to exist or whether it is being closed down, so that is why I asked the questions.

In that context, is the minister indicating that there have been certain instructions given to comply with certain regulations from his department's point of view? I realize Natural Resources is also involved, but in terms of his own branch here, the Veterinary Services Branch under The Animal Diseases Act, that there have been orders issued and that time is being given for compliance. Is that why the minister said there would be further inspections to see what progress has been made? Is that really what has happened? Mr.

Findlay: Staff are at the presen t time evaluating the information that they gathered in the last two visits, and we will be monitoring the situation carefu lly over the next few week s and will undoubtedly, in time, be making recommendations. Mr. Plohman: So am I to under stand that there are not specific recommenda tions as this was just simply a fact-finding inspection as opposed to direct orders at that particular time? After analysis of what was gathered, then there may be some orders issued, but up to this point there are not, just fact finding? Mr.

Findlay: In the course of the visits, there has been verbal communication, but nothing in the way of orders given at this time. As the member indicated, basically fact finding and information garnered in those fact-finding missions is being considered and disc ussed and appropriate considerations that will be given over time. Mr. Plohman: Just leaving this issue, but before I do, in terms of the enforcement of any orders, is it by way of fine? Is that what enforcement lies under The Animal Diseases Act? Mr.

Findlay: Yes, under the act, fines can be levied, charges can be laid under the Criminal Code for cruelty to animals, and thirdly, the animals could be seized if that was deemed appropriate. So those are three actions that could ensue. Mr. Plohman: Then none of those actions have been taken to this date, I gather from what the minister has said? Mr. Findlay: That is right. Mr. Plohman : Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, moving on to the couple of issues that relate to The Animal Husbandry Act, changes that are being proposed in the Legislature by the minister as a result of actions taken last year involving the Semen Distribution Centre, I guess all references to that in the act are being remo ved this year as a re sul t of the privatization of this centre. • (1 440) For the record, to refresh my memory and record, how many employees were involved last year that were in governmen t employ that were terminated as a result of the privatization of this function of the Semen Distribution Centre?

Could the minister report on what the activities are of the new operation in terms of employment and economic activity in the province? I ask those questions for both the Semen Distribution Centre and the vet services lab, keeping in mind that the minister had given as one of his rationale in making the decision last year that this was a function no longer required to be in by governmen t and basically a good economic opportunity for a priva te-sec tor company in Manitoba who could actually thrive in this business and perhaps expand it in terms of employment opportunities and economic activity.

So if I am correct in saying that was one of the major reasons that the minister mentioned, which I

May 26, 19 92 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 3797 believe it was, I am attempting to determine at this point whether in fact that has happened in this province as a result of what the minister did last year. Mr. Findlay: Yes, the Semen Distribution Centre, prior to our privatizing of it, we estimate we were doing 50 percent, maybe 60 percent of the semen business in the province, and the private sector was doing the rest. ABS and Western Breeders were the big players at that time. Western Breeders purchased the Semen Centre, and at that time there were three staff in the Semen Centre.

Western Breeders now have four staff in the province, we understand two in Winnipeg and two in Souris. Mr. Plohman: How many did they have prior to the purchase in the province? Mr. Findlay: We believe two, and one of the staff members that was in the Semen Centre, a Mr. Klagenberg, is now the Manitoba agent for Transfer Genetics. So, you could basically say one has gone and been employed there, and if you take the difference in the number in Western Breeders from two to four, there is two more positions. But Transfer Genetics were not a force in the province until Mr. Klagenberg went into their employ. Mr.

Plohman: I was asking, I guess, about the Vet Services Lab and the Semen Distribution Centre. The minister has said thatthere were three. positions in the office. Now Western Breeders has four in the province. They had two prior. So they have gone up two, and we have lost three. So we are down one job. He says that job could be the-what function?

I am not sure what he said it was, but I would take it from what he said that that is an additional person in add ition to the four that Western Breeders has in Manitoba, that this one person who has taken another position is located outside of Manitoba but servicing Manitoba, so he is mentioning this in that context? Mr. Findlay: No, Mr. Klagenberg is in inside of Manitoba as an employee of Transfer Genetics. Mr. Plohman: Transfer Genetics, working for whom? Transfer Genetics is the company? Mr. Findlay: Yes. Mr. Plohman: Oh, I thought that was the function. Mr. Findlay: No, that is the company. Mr.

Plohman: In competition with what? Mr. Findlay: In competition with Western Breeders and ABS. Mr. Plohman: Okay, but clearly for Western Breeders function, that is not a relevant factor for them. I mean, the person had an employment opportunity, was working for the government, got a job in the private sector but not with the company that took over. So it is not really relevant for the issue here. What we have done is lost a job in Manitoba under his privatization. Is the minister saying that the person who was hired by Transfer Genetics is a direct consequen ce of the privatization of the Semen Centre?

Otherwise, I do not unde rstand the relationship, him mentioning this in the first place. Mr. Findlay: In terms of jobs in the semen business in Manitoba, when he is working for Transfer Genetics he is in the semen business in Manitoba. That position with Transfer Genetics, as far as I know, did not exist prior to Mr. Klagenberg going into their employ and working in Manitoba. So that created another position in the semen business in Manitoba, as a result of or as consequence of, however you want to look at it. Mr.

Plohman: Okay, it could be argued that they saw an opportunity that they might not have seen if Western Breeders was not competing against them in terms of their ownership of the Semen Centre. I think that is questionable as to whether that could have happened either way. It may have just been time for that to happen. This other company wanted to expand. Obviously they did not get the business that the Semen Centre had. Western Breeders got that business. Or did Western Breeders lose some of that business to other companies, to competitors?

Is that what the min ister is intimating by this sug gestion that this job was a result of his privatization of the Semen Centre? Mr. Findlay: Just to restate what I have already said, in the semen business in the province prior to the privatization, really ABS and Western Breeders were competing with the government, so to speak. The Semen Distribution Centre was handling the semen material from Transfer Genetics.

When the privatization occurred, Transfer Genetics decided to market their commodities directly in the province and have done it through hiring one of the employees of the former Semen Distribution Centre.

3798 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 26, 1992 With regard to the Drug Centre, under the provincial ownership there were eight full-time positions. Now under the ownership of the vet co-operative there are 1 0 full-time positions and one part-time. So you might say that as a consequence of that privatization, there are two full-time and one part-time positions created. * (1 450) Mr. Plohman: Where is this vet co-op-is that what it is called now? Where is it located, the 1 0 positions that the minister talks about and the one part time? Mr.

Findlay: Yes, they are operating under the name of Midwest Veterinary Co-operative and they are located on Lagimodiere here in Winnipeg. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, to the minister, is this a new company formed for just this purpose, or is this an amalgamation of a previously existing company that was in this business with the co-operative? Mr. Findlay: It is a new co-operative consisting of 88 practising veterinarians in the pro vince of Manitoba. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, when did they begin their operations, and what did they get in terms of inventory, supplies and equipment and so on from the govern ment? Mr. Findlay: The co-operative went into business on September 15 , and they purchased the inventory and equipment from the government. Mr. Plohman: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, purchased that at the normal purchase price or selling price of these drugs, or was it a discounted clearing price? Mr. Findlay: The drugs were purchased at book value and the equipment at a depreciated value. Mr.

Plohman: Is the departm ent doing any follow-up monitoring of this operation as a result of it taking over a major function of the government, in its infancy at this point? Is there any follow-up? Mr. Findlay: Yes, department staff have been in close contact with the co-operative but there have been no complaints and no reason to do anything other than discuss with them, or work with them in any fashion they may request. There is no need for any analysis or no complaints to follow-up. Mr. Plohman: So there is no regulating of their operations in any way. They are just operating as a free business? Mr.

Findlay: The co-operative is purchasing drugs in bulk from various suppliers and selling them directly to the veterinarians. In the case of the vet districts clinics, that we have the vet services commission and the veterinarians negotiate the markup that will be charged in the clinics on the drugs that are purchased from the co-operative. Mr. Plohman: How was that markup regulated prior to the takeover? I imagine there was a small markup by the government in order to bring it close to a break-even operati on.

We had our big discussion last year about whether they were breaking even or not, but it was certainly not at a great cost so there must have been some markup on those drugs by the government upon sale, or some markup allowed by the vets in the sale as well. But did the government tell them how much they could mark it up or is this a new function? Mr. Findlay: Yes, there was a markup in place between the Drug Centre and the veterinarians which was 6 percent for animal health, food animal products and 1 0 percent for pets.

As I said earlier, the markup that the vets put on the product when they sell it to the producers in the government vet clinics is negotiated by the commission with the veterinarians. So those same two procedures still operate. The markup between the co-operative Drug Centre and the veterinarians, we believe, is now around 1 0 or twelve percent, very comparable to Saskatchewan and Alberta. Mr. Plohman: So what we are seeing here then is initially the co-operative having to mark up its drugs after it purchases them in volume and sells them to the various vet clinics.

It has to double the markup for large animal drugs as opposed to pets here. We are talking 6 percent to 10 or 12 percent. So in fact the markup is now almost doubled, if I am hearing the minister correctly, and the price that the vets set when selling to the farmers would probably be very similar with the exception of this 6 percent. The markup that they would have would be set using the same mechanism that was in place before, so there still is some regulation there. Would that be under The Veterinary Services Act?

May 26, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3799 Mr. Findlay: The procedure that the commission uses for negotiating the markup in the clinics is the same now as before. The buying policy of the co-operative with the private drug companies, we do not know at this time whether they are buying at the same price or lower or higher. We would have to assume probably very similar to the buying policies used by the Drug Centre when it was under government ownership. .. (1 500) Mr.

Plohman: Are any of the employees who were doing purchasing with government now working for the co-operative and therefore bringing their experience and contacts with them? Mr. Findlay: The co-operative now employs three of the people who used to be in the employ of the Drug Centre. One Brian Lezak was the major buyer, and he is their major buyer over at the co-operative . Harry Sing h was in charge of warehousing and is in the same capacity with the co-operative, and a Rick Landon worked with Harry Singh and is also in the employ of the co-operative. Mr.

Plohman: Has the department done any monitoring of wholesale drug prices to determine what kind of an increase we have seen in prices generally this year from last? The price the farmer pays, retail. Mr. Findlay: There has not been any specific monitoring of retail prices across the province. The general belief is that they have moved up marginally, probably still in a general sense slightly lower priced than, say, Alberta or Saskatchewan.

There is another business that is actively selling drugs directly to farmers in the province that is creating, it is probably safe to say, considerable competition for the veterinarians in terms of selling drugs. So that competition is also keeping a lid on any potential increases. What our under standing is is that this competitor buys dir ect from drug companies and then sells direct to producers. Mr. Plohman: Did that competitor not exist prior to the turning over of this operation to the vets, and what is the name of the company that is involved? Mr.

Findlay: Yes, the competitor is Weiller & Williams of the Winnipeg Livestock auction mart. They have been in the business for some period of time, but since they built the new facility out on the Perimeter north of the city they have become much more active, and we believe, you know, much more active in recent time. They have become a fairly significant competitor in that business. But that is who they are and that is where they are located. Mr.

Piohman : Can the minister foresee at this time or plan or contemplate any changes to The Veterinary Services Act to reflect the changed environment with regard to this business at this time-any regulation that he would foresee? Mr. Findlay: No, no changes to the act are contemplated because of the privatization of the Drug Centre. Naturally there continues to be some request from the veterinarians to look at the act. That is sort of an ongoing process, but no changes are being contemplated relative to the Drug Centre. Mr.

Plohman: So I am to under stand that the minister does not have a mechanism for monitoring the retail prices and has no plans to put any in place nor to regulate those prices. I think of it in terms of what has happened with the pharmaceutical drug prices since the patent laws have been tightened up, I guess you could say, or there is a greater patent protection for the name-brand companies in Canada.

They said at the time, when that act was passed federally, there would be no increases in drugs and yet experience has shown that there has been an increase of about 11 percent a year over the last five years, about 55 percent in that same time period and maybe inflation was around 20 percent. So there was a rather large increase. In this situation it is possible that drug pric es- alth ough the mini ster said there is competition with this other operation right now, it remains to be seen how effective that competition will be in all instances, in all situations in the province.

So there could be some increases, and I just wondered whether the minister had any plans to monitor at any time what is happening in that industry. Of course, it would be premature to say if there would be any need for any regulation, but the monitoring seems to me to be a critical thing, at least in its formative stages. Yet, the minister has not monitored. He said, it is general wisdom that it has probably gone up a bit, but it is still lower than Saskatchewan or Alberta. Does he intend to do anything, a little bit, on a pilot basis even, spot checking, or anything? Mr.

Findlay: I guess we would say there are two functions going on: No. 1, there is the marketplace regulation which we have already talked about; and the other, which we have already talked about, is the

3800 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 26, 1992 role of the commission in negotiating markup with the veterinarians in the vet districts. * (1 510 ) That does not put any regulation directly on the private vets, but in competition it is pretty tough for them to sell drugs at a higher price than what the farmer can buy them at at the vet district clinics. So there are the activities of the association, plus there is the competitive marketplace for the private vets, and the competitive marketplace of Weiller & Williams being in the business of selling drugs directly to farmers.

We will certainly be keeping an eye on what is going on and be listening to input from various red meat commodity associations, whichever has an interest in drugs, as to how the scene unfolds. But at this time, we are not proposing any additional monitoring, other than what the commission is doing, the vet commission. Mr. Plohman: Is Weiller & Williams able to provide competition throughout the province or is this rather localized, around Winnipeg to the greatest extent? Mr. Findlay: Our belief is that he is doing business all over the province.

Obviously, the majority of it may be within 60 or 1 00 miles of the city. But cattle are coming to this auction mart from all over the province and being sold from that auction mart to all over the province. So there is a contact with producers. Undoubtedly, he is in the process of trying to have dealers elsewhere in the province. Whether he is successful or not remains to be seen, but we believe he has an influence over the vast majority of the province. Mr.

Plohman: Does he have a truck distributing these drugs travelling throughout the province or is this all done from a store, a warehouse at the facility at the Perimeter? Mr. Findlay: To the best of our knowledge, it is just done out of the auction mart on the north Perimeter. Mr. Plohman: I would suggest that it would probably be limited in terms ofthe impact it is having right now . The minister may choose to differ, although we would have to explore this further to find out. What is the role of generic drugs in this field? Is there a lot of competition in that area? Mr.

Findlay: There are very limited generics available. It is primarily trade-name drugs that are sold in the marketplace, very few generics. Mr. Plohman : Is the pricing policy the commission negotiates with the vets a standard one across the province, or do they allow some variance in the prices from location north to south or east to west or whatever? Mr. Findlay: The commission nego tiates with representatives of the 31 vet clinics and what they negotiate with those vets is the same right across the province in all the clinics. Mr. Plohman: Just on the Semen Distribution Centre then.

We have covered some of the methods used in the vet services in the lab with drugs-drug lab. What is the practice and procedure in the Semen Distribution area now without the government being involved in terms of pricing and availability? Has there been any follow-up as a result of privatization there by the staff? Mr. Findlay : The semen bus ines s is ver y competitive and from our knowledge it would look like the cost of most semen has come down. The very high profile sires may not have come down, but the majority of semen has come down in price.

The charges that the technicians are applying for their business is much the same as it has been. We are not aware that it has gone up, but the general cost of semen on average has come down because of the competition. Mr. Plohman : Is there the same type of markup from the Semen Distribution Centre? The Drug Centre used to have a 6 percent markup, as the minister relayed to us today. Was there that kind of a markup with the Semen Distribution Centre when it was owned by the government? Mr.

Findlay: Yes, when we had the Semen Distribution Centre, we had a markup in place which was around 1 0 percent, and the technician had a markup of around 20 percent. We are no longer in the business, so either the technician or the producer buys directly from Western Breeders or ABS

whereas we used to buy from ABS or Western Breeders and then put the 1 0 percent markup on, and then the technician put his markup on. As I said earlier, the technicians markup charges are much the same, we are no longer there as a middleman, so that is undoubtedly why the producer is actually acquiring the semen a little bit cheaper

May 26, 19 92 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3801 now than he was before. So the same semen is available direct now as opposed to through the Semen Distribution Centre where we act as a middleman. When we were there as a middleman, as I said earlier, 40 or 50 percent of the business was being done direct from the companies to the producer or to the technician. Mr. Plohman: Yes, just a question whether there were any volume discounts that the Semen Distribution Centre received as opposed to an individual producer or even technician purchaser.

That has not been addressed in the minister's answer in terms of whether the Semen Centre-you did say, Mr. Minister, that the prices have dropped slightly because it is very competitive. So I will accept that on face value, but on exploring that further, I would question it in terms of whether the Semen Centre, even though they were a middleman, so to speak, were able to purchase because of the volumes at a discounted price from ABS, as opposed to what the individuals can now purchase from ABS. Mr. Findlay: When the Semen Distribution Centre was in operation there were no volume discounts.

We under stand that that is still the same way it is, whether a technician buys 1 0 straws or 1 00 straws, he is paying the same price per straw. We were not, in the semen distribution business, able to obtain volume discounts. Mr. Plohman: That is interesting, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. I will tum this over to the Liberal critic at this time. * (1 520) Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): In the expected results you say you hire veterinary students to provide them with experience and to encourage the return to rural practice after graduation. How many students do you hire in the course of a year? Mr.

Findlay: Students have a four-year program at Saskatoon, and prior to that they put in at least two years, either there or two years or more here at University of Manitoba, Faculty of Agriculture, to get into the first year here. For students who have completed that, what we call the first year in Saskatoon, the first year of vet training, we have hired seven students whom we either paid out of the budget or out of the STEP program for a total of 13 weeks of work and assigned to various districts around the province.

The second year we hired four students for 13 weeks, and they will be paid nine weeks out of our budget and four weeks by the vets involved. In third year there were 1 0 students involved; they were paid five weeks either through the STEP program or through the budget and eight weeks by the veterinarians, again totalling 13 weeks. So in each of the three years there are a number of students working for 13 weeks in the province paid partly or wholly by the government to work in various clinics around the province. Mr.

Gaudry: Since you started that program, you have not had any graduates yetthat have gone back into the rural to practise in one of the clinics in Manitoba? Mr. Findlay: This program of hiring them during the summers after the first, second and third years has been ongoing for some time, so many of the students who have been hired as summer students have come back into the province, either working as a veterinarian in the clinic or as a veterinarian in a private practice. We have had lots of them come back.

We cannot give you numbers, but it adds obviously a work experience opportunity for these students , and hopefully it attracts them to come back and take up a practice either in a clinic or as a private vet in the province. (Mr. Bob Rose, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) Mr. Gaudry: You feel it is very successful in respect to hiring them and then trying to convince them to go back and practise in the rural areas? Mr. Findlay: I think what the member for St. Boniface is probably referring to is the scholarships that are in place. There are the scholarships, and then there is the summer work experience.

In the scholarships, they can receive a maximum of $750 a year over the course of four years, in other words, a maximum of $3,000. If they come back to the province and work in a rural practice, they work it off, whatever the scholarship was that they had received over the four years, atthe rate of 20 percent a year. So they come back and work in a rural practice for five years; they work off the value of their scholarship which could have been as much as $3,000. In the 19 91 graduating class, there were four students who had scholarships totalling $3,000, $2,400, $2,1 00, and $2,550 that returned to work in

3802 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 26, 19 92 rural practices here in Manitoba and obviously are in the process of working off their scholarship. Mr. Ga udr y : The fam ous qu estion of decentralization: Out of this department, have there been any employees who have been decentralized to rural Manitoba? Mr. Findlay: No, ther e have been no job s decentralized out of vet services. Mr. Gaudry: In appropriating grants, there is an amount of $51 6,900. Is that part of the grant, and how is it distributed to the clinics? Is it according to their requests or to the government's proposals? Mr.

Findlay: For the 31 clinics in the province, the maximum grant they can achieve is $20,000 per year. It is allocated by us on the basis of $1 5,000 for the first veterinarian, and an additional $5,000 for the second veterinarian. They can only get that grant or that amount or a portion of that amount based on the contribution from the municipalities. If the mu nicipalities put up a full $20,000, we will match it. If they put up $1 5,000, and they have one vet, we will match it. If they have two vets, and they put up $1 7,000, we will match the $1 7,000.

In terms of the budget available for the grants, last year was $488,900; this year it is $493,400. But we match what the municipalities will put up to a maximum of $20,000 per year for each of the 31 clinics. Mr. Gaudry: Yes, one last question. In the allowance for staff turno ver $27,700, was that someone who retired and hired someone at the lower scale? Mr.

Findlay: Yes, that allowance is not for specific retirement but cases for where people will be leaving our employ and will be replaced by other staff, maybe at a lower salary or there will be a period of time in which ther e is nobody in the position-obviously, we save salary dollars. So it is actually our projected saving because of the turnover process. Mr. Plohman: Just briefly on the situation in Alonsa. Could the minister give us an update of the vet services situation there? * (1 530) Mr. Findlay: The Vet Medical Board will be holding a formal inquiry sometime not far down the road. The veterinarian, Dr.

Thompson, received a court injunction to allow him to continue to practise until that formal inquiry occurs or until the end of June. That is our understanding at this time. Mr. Plohman: So, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, he is continuing to function there until the end of June or until some other court decision affects it. They have full-time services of a vet at Alonsa now, or is it restricted as a result of certain charges that have been laid? Mr. Findlay: Our un de rsta nding is it is for emergency-related services that are requested but, as I said, it is not for a subsequent court action.

The court injunction is in place until the vet medical board has held the formal hearing to review his case. We expect that to occur in the next number of weeks. Mr. Plohman: How many districts are without vets right now? What is the outlook for replacing the vets if there was a decision made that he could no longer practise, for example, and they would then be without a vet? Are there any other districts that are short vets right now? Mr. Findlay: Over the last few years, it has been relatively common to have a clinic or two or three in the province actively searching for a veterinarian.

At this point in time, St. Lazare is without a veterinarian. Selkirk Clinic is in the final stages of winding down, and Lac du Bonnet is in the process of winding down their clinic. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the minister is saying that two clinics are going to close, because they do not have. Is that what the minister means by Selkirk and Lac du Bonnet winding down, that they are not going to operate and offer services any longer as a result of a shortage of vets? Mr.

Findlay: In both cases, Selkirk and Lac du Bonnet, a decision to move towards winding down the clinic was a local decision by the local board and the local councils. In Selkirk, there are private vets in operation in the area. Obviously, a decision was taken by the board and the councils that that was adequately servicing the area and there was no need for them to be putting money into a clinic. If they are not doing it, then naturally they do not draw our matching money. In Lac du Bonnet, my understanding is that there was considerable difficulty over time attracting a veterinarian there.

So they are proceeding in the direction of probably winding it down.

May 26, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 3803 Mr. Plohman: So these are part of the 31 that the minister mentioned, not necessarily 31 locations, but 31 vets or 31 clinics. Mr. Findlay: When I referred to a 31 , it is 31 clinics in the province. In some cases, there is more than one vet per clinic, but they were included in that list of 31 . Mr. Plohman: So, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, we would be down to 29 clinics if these two were to go, and there is the St. Lazare situation and then there is the potential Alonsa situation.

So I guess I just would express some alarm at the tendency maybe to close these. I wonder if this is a trend. Is this symptomatic of perhaps funding not being realistic in the modern situation that they just cannot continue to fund this service? What is causing this? Mr. Findlay: A year ago, we set up a new clinic in Fisher Branch so that added one to the list. The funding that we put in there for the building would be about $1 58,000, somewhere in that area.

That was set up because they had been successful in attracting a veterinarian who was prepared to stay and was giving that commitment, and the presence of a clinic only improved the chance that he would stay. In terms of the 31 clinics that I mentioned earlier, there are 56 veterinarians involved at those 31 clinics in large animal practice throughout rural Manitoba, but there is a total of about 1 00 large animal veterinarians throughout rural Manitoba. So just slightly over half of the veterinarians in large animal practice in the province are presently in the clinic situations.

In other words, almost half are outside the cli nics but operating as private veterinarians. The situation in Selkirk, as I mentioned earlier, there is an adequate vet deemed to be present to serve the community. Lac du Bonnet has had a consistent ongoing problem trying to attract a veterinarian, and the local board and the local municipalities are proceeding in the direction they deem appropriate for their area. Mr. Plohman: Yes, and I can appreciate the local decisions on that aspect.

Insofar as the minister's position, though, is he in any way encouraging the winding down of these clinics and moving towards private clinics? Is this something that he is in any way actively involved in? Mr. Findlay: No, the minister is not actively involved in any way. It is a decision by them. Our matching grant is available. If they choose to put up the money, we match it. If they choose not to, obviously they do not attract the matching money.

But we are not actively involved-! am not actively involved on either side of the issue with regard to those clinics or any other clinic regarding whether they should wind up or privatize or whatever. Simply, events unfold as events shall unfold, and in some parts of the province, clearly, there have been clinics operating for some time. A private vet can come in and set up business close to or 1 0 miles away, at his own volition , and producers use whichever vet they deem appropriate. Whether they use the clinic services or strictly the services of the private vet is entirely up to the producer. * (1 540) Mr.

Plohman: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, we will be dealing with the weed districts, for example, maybe in the next section, and it is a matter there of funding being cut. In this case, the minister is saying the matching grants are still there. If they are never increased, eventually it is like a cut. They are no longer relevant in terms of thei r abilit y to assis t substantively the service. So that is why I was asking the minister.

I mean, he does not have to necessarily make a decision that he is going to phase it out, but he could choose not to increase the grants over successive years and eventually they are no longer relevant. So I just want to ask the mini ster: Have they been increased? Is there a plan to increase-they were not increased this year, I take it. When was the last time they were increased? Is there representation being made about the relevance of those grants right now, the size of them? Are they still sufficient to do the job? Mr. Findlay: This is my fifth budget as a minister.

It was either in my first or second budget-1 am not sure which one-we increased the grant ceiling from $1 5,000 to $20,000. So in my term in office over the last fou r years we have increased it fairly substantively at some time in the past. We are not aware of any broad request from vet districts for increases. There may be one or two that would like to see it happen, but there is not a broad request. More and more clinics are moving up close

3804 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 26, 19 92 to or at the $20,000, but not everybody is there at this time. Mr. Plohman: Will the minister review this again before the next budget? Will he be reviewing this $20,000 maximum ceiling again since it will be four or five years since the last increase? Mr. Findlay: It is our belief that the increase that I just mentioned, the $1 5,000 to $20,000, was in my second budget-in other words, three years ago.

We review it every year in that budgetary process, and there was no formal request in the preparation of this budget requesting increases, but in terms of the preparation of the next budget, we will definitely be reviewing all lines as to appropriateness, or whether there is need for increases or decreases, and this will be one of them that will be considered. Mr. Plohman: I was going to complete my question with that question when the minister talked about decreasing.

Is that something that the minister is any way contemplating because he mentioned whether some have to be decreased or increased, not just increased. Of course, that is the case with the weed districts. It is not because it had to be but because government chose a certain direction and, therefore, reduced the grants over a three-year period. Is that kind of plan something the minister is asking his staff or he is personally contemplating? Mr. Findlay: No. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Rose): Item 4.(

c) Veterinary Services Branch: (1 ) Salaries $1 ,373 ,6 00-pass;

(2) Other Expend itu res $1 ,074,000-pass. Item 4.(

d) Soils and Crops Branch: (1 ) Salaries $1,9 84,200. Mr. Plohman: Before I ask questions about the weeds, is this appropriate

section for the weed districts? [inte�ection] Yes. The issue of the new compound, I think, is something that everyone is probably looking at. It is called Reclaimer-Ameliorator Polymeric Gel (RAPG). It has not got a commercial name yet, but I note that the

article by Mary Ann FitzGerald in the Winnipeg Free Press of May 16 discusses this pr od uc t and indi cates tha t ther e is some involvement to the government through Industry, Trade and Tourism for some research into this product. Is that more appropriately discussed under research? There is only a research grant of, I think, $800,000 for the University of Manitoba. That is not involved in this product, I guess. So we might as well deal with it under Soils and Crops?

Is this something that there has been any research done by exper ts in the minis ter's department up to this point in time, and any input into any research that has being done and funded by the government? Mr. Findlay: Yes, with regard to the compound RAPG, we are not directly involved in it. About the only thing we know is that UMA Engineering has a contract.

They have a scientist who is involved in the development of the compound and, to the best of our knowledge, is working with the AECL, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited at Pinawa and has some degree of grant from Industry, Trade and Tourism to further research and explore the compound and determine its capability of moisture conservation in the context of using it to improve crop growth in arid lands. I know there has been some discussion that it may have considerable market value in the drier regions of the world, maybe even including the Palliser Triangle of western Canada, but that is all we know about it.

It is in the research exploratory stage at this time and, if the compound proves out to be able to do the things it is purported to do, it will be a very promising material. Mr. Plohman: Just on AECL's involvement and the gove rnm ent's in volve ment, is there some ownership of intellectual property in the public domain as a result of the involvement? Would there be any initiative on the minister's part to ensure that?

Dealing with a new product, which if patented privately-and I understand there is an individual inventor, so I guess he has the first options on it in terms of what or whom he sells it to, but it seems to me that there is an aspect in the public interest here in terms of what happens to that product, to intellectual property. Has the minister given any thought to this concept and this idea in terms of what would happen to the ownership and the potential options for farmers if it was held by, say. one of the large chemical companies under protection for 20 years or so.

The cost could be enormous for farmers who want to have access to it. On the other hand, it might be in the public interest to have some portion of this involving the public sector through research-it is involved now-some conditions set so that farmers could get access to it at a much lower

May 26, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 3805 price if it ever became marketable commercially as a product. * (1 550) Mr. Findlay: In terms of the compound, we are not involved as a department in any fashion with the research, exploration or the contracts that exist involving UMA Engineering, Atomic Ener gy of Canada and/or the inventor, so I cannot comment any further.

It is an interesting compound for the agricultural industry in arid regions of the world, but I would have to suspect that the ownership lies somewhere between the inventor and UMA Engineering and/or ma ybe involving AECL thro ugh wha tever contractual arrangements they have at this time in the further exploration of the compound. Mr. Plohman: I think this leads to an interesting debate on this issue, and it is one that I think governments have to consider in terms of the increasing powers that are being given in terms of ownership of intellectual property.

Perhaps this would not fall under intellectual property, but it seems that it does because it received the United Nations Environmental Program prize in 19 90 and recognition by the Swiss-based World Intellectual Property Organization. I do not know whether it falls strictly within that or not.

Certainly, this whole area is an evolving area with new technology and one that I thin k governments have to give some thought to in terms of how the public is involved and the public interest is protected in balance to the fact that there are huge international conglomerates who can very well tie up the mar ket for thes e new products and essentially control that market because of the gigantic size of those conglomerates. Mr. Findlay: I guess the best way to describe the compound at this stage, it is purely in its infancy in terms of whether it ever achieves the expectation that presently exists for it.

Before it can ever be used in Canada, clearly, it would have to be registered in some fashion, whether it is under the fertilizers act or what act it would be under. Right now, it kind of maybe falls between the cracks, between the pesticide act and the fertilizers act. There would have to be a lot of testing done in terms of its efficacy, and others to prove it can actually do what it claims to do. There certainly would have to be a fair bit of work done on residues and uptake by plants of the compound or any decomposition products of the compounds. So it has a long, long way to go.

It does not mean that this is the only compound of this character or of this nature that is in the development stages. I think government's role in this case is to be sure that the compound, when eventually registered, is adequately able to do what it is purported to do, in other words, do the efficacy testing and the residue testing for the compound. That is government's role.

It is the role of the scientists in the private sector to do the research and bring forward the information to get into their investigation process that government would eventually use for the provincial registration of the compound if that ever occurs. As I said , this may not be the only compound of a similar nature that is in some stage of exploration right now. Mr. Plohman: Wel l, I would submi t that the government also has a role in the research end of it, not just the private sector. That is why I was raising that question with the minister.

I imagine in the other areas of the Soils and Crops Branch, there is a substantial amount of research that is taking place with test crops being grown and managed by the department. Is that still a function that has taken place to the same extent it has in the past and even expanding, new varieties of crops being field tested? Mr. Findlay: As a department, we do the crop variety testing, we do demonstration plots, we do fertility plots, we do crop development work.

A compound like this will have to be researched a lot further before we would want to include it in any of our ongoing demonstration or product development plots that the department is involved in, because it is nowhere near being close to being marketable or usable. It has, it is fair to say, several years of research ahead of it before it can get to that position where it would be something we would want to get involved in, in terms of further exploring its capability to work under different conditions in the province, like we do with the new crops or new technologies. Mr.

Plohman: So the minister is saying that once it becomes potentially, at least, commercially viable, then it would be something that the Soils and Crops Branch would actively be testing and pursuing in terms of generating interest by farmers in this new product and seeing how it would perform. Does that mean that the whole issue of genetic engineering is not something that the department is actively

3806 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 26, 1992 involved in, in terms of new strains, varieties of crops from scratch? (Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair) Mr. Findlay: As a department, we are not directly involved in any bioengineering research, but when and where private companies are involved in doing some sort of studies, trials or research with bioengineering-! guess we could call it samples or varieties-we are made aware of it, and our staff will visit the studies of the trials to gain information for the use of the department in some fashion down the road. Mr.

Plohman: So is the minis ter basically comfortable with that function and role atthe present time? * (1 600) Mr. Findlay: In terms of becoming any more formally involved is exceedingly expensive, and we are just not able to be involved in direct research. We are in constant contact with the university and with various companies that are involved in trying to explore those opportunities, and we just do not have the resources to be involved any more directly.

There is no question that various forms of biological engineering is the new wave of research and will open, in my mind, I believe, many new doors in terms of opportunity of improving the quality of crops we produce. Certain specificities that are required in those crops can be done this way. So I think it is a new wave of scientific research in agriculture. We will stay closely in tune with what is going on, but we do not have the resources or the staff to get directly involved.

I guess our research arm for the department is the University of Manitoba for which we give a grant of over $800,000 a year, and we will work, research-wise, through them in the future. Mr. Plohman: Because of modern technology they can eliminate hundreds of years of trial and error in developing new strains of plants. So I wonder whether the minister is aware of any activities taking place at the university as a result of the grant money that the province provides? That is not strictly in this section, but it is related. Since we are talking about it, the minister may be able to shed some light on that. Mr.

Findlay: It is our understanding the university is involved in hybrid canola research. which is some utilization of biotechnology techniques. Also, in terms of herbicide resistance, it is doing some biotechnology work there. They have grants to work in those areas. Certainly, the probability of some major breakthrough in canola hybridization is, I think, very, very probable. lfthe member read a few articles in the last couple of weeks on herbicide resistance, he will clearly see that it is a developing problem for weeds such as wild oats, millet, Russian thistle, and undoubtedly some more.

Because as you constantly kill out the susceptible strains of a particular variety, you are going to allow the nonsusceptible ones, or the resistant ones, to survive and multiply. So through the course of using chemicals over time, you select for resistance basically. Some of that resistance is starting to emerge. It is a major challenge for farmers to be able to have at their disposal chemicals that overcome those resistant strains of various weeds. In some parts of the province, in millet and wild oats, it is of grave concern.

So we desperately need either choices of basically different chemical types of herbicides or another vehicle, another means by which we can utilize some compound that allows us to control those resistant strains of those various weeds. Because if we do not, three or four years from now, we are going to have some really major weed problems because of resistance. Mr.

Plohman: It is certainly an important area, and I guess the minister is obviously aware of the future trend of engineering certain strains of crops that would respond only to certain kinds of chemicals manufactured by a certain chemical company, for example. That is the kind of thing that concerns me in terms of the kind of control that could be exercised by individual companies who have engineered the kind of crop that produces in an excellent way, but responds only to certain kinds of chemicals that they have engineered particularly for that strain.

That is of some concern, and I think that is one of the reasons why I think the public sector has to be continually vigilant and active in research, and not leave it all to the private sector to do. Because it will be the monopoly of perhaps a very few large companies at some point, if it is not already. Mr. Findlay: The member sees it as a problem, and I see it as an opportunity- Mr. Plohman: Right, if it is handled right.

May 26, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 3807 Mr. Findlay: Certainly, with the involvement of universities, that is the public sector involved in terms of research. My general understanding is that many companies are exploring the ability to genetically engineer plants so that they respond specifically to certain herbicides and that the end result will be better control of weeds, higher production of food commodities. I think the public sector is involved through the universities and through government research. One example I could give is there are some weed problems in canola.

If somebody could come up with a canola strain that Is resistant to Roundup so that he can move in and spray all the plant material with Roundup and kill everything except the canota that is growing there, that would be a very major breakthrough and would be very positive for the canol a industry in this country. I think that is an area of research that is being worked on and looked at, but I would not say there is only one company in the busi ness of pursuing that kind of gene tic engineering. I say it is exciting.

It is opportunistic. • (1 610 ) The memb er sees concerns there, and we might share some of the same concerns about whether the product when it comes out is adequately researched so that all safety factors are considered and efficacy factors are considered, but we have a regulatory system to manage that. Naturally, if the price is too high, the consuming public-in other words, the farmer in this case-will not buy it. So the company is under pressure to keep it priced so that it is usable by the consuming public, being the farmer in this case. Mr. Plohman: This is an important area.

I wonder whether the minister can tell us about the activities of his branch in this area in organic farming and control of weeds in a natural way without use of any chemicals. Is this something that is actively being developed and pursued as an option? Mr. Findlay: Manitoba producers and Manitoba agriculture have a fair bit of involvement in the development of what is generally called organic food commo dities, organic production.

As a department, we have been involved with the Organic Producers Association of Manitoba, whose president has been Alex Scott of Virden, and a lot of the people that have attempted organic farming have been in that southwest area of the province. They had certain guidelines that they requested members to follow in order to have what they would call products that could be generally certified as organic. We have discussed with them ability to have guidelines for organic production in Manitoba, but we are now in the process of working for national guidelines or standards for organic production.

That is in the process of being done. Through the department, we have committed some funding in the process of developing those nationa l standards. We worked with the organization in terms of the meetings they put on, information meetings they have held about that. The Manitoba organization has worked with Kent Flour Mills in Virden and with Can-Oat in Portage for processing of their organic grains for direct shipment after processing to marketplaces in eastern Canada and Europe, which, I think, are a couple of the places that they market to.

A manual has been put together for general procedures for a farmer to follow if he wants to end up with an organic compound. We hope that the certification standards are available fairly soon. I am just not sure how soon they expect them to be done. [interjection] They expect that printing of the standards will occur in the next few months. So they will be available fairly shortly. There is no question there is a market for organically produced commodities. You will see various grocery stores have a section. They call it green foods or organically grown foods.

I guess I always say wherever there is a niche market and somebody is prepared to pay a price that you deem is acceptable, you go ahead and produce for that niche market. Mr. Plohman: Would the minister say that GRIP is neutral on this as a program for-whether it discourages or encourages organic farming? Mr. Findlay: In terms of GRIP and organic production, at this stage it looks like it is basically neutral. Whether a producer is producing regular wheat or organic wheat, he works for the same market price, the same support price.

If he sells his commodity at a premium-in other words, the organic wheat had a premium to the regular wheat-the farmer pockets that premium. There is no question that he is producing less bushels per acre, so his IPI will be lower. An Honourable Member: So will his input costs. Mr. Findlay: His input costs will be lower; plus he pockets the premium. If he is selling it for a dollar

3808 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 26, 19 92 or a dollar and a half a bushel more, he pockets that prem ium. There has been some discussion on whether there should be a separate category for this, but there has been no request to pursue that. We will wait and see what may evolve in the future, but right now it seems to be relatively neutral. You pocket the pr emium, but your IPI will be lower and your costs should be lower. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that is the way I would look at it, Although some people have raised it with us that it is actually a disincentive.

I do not fully under stand why it would be at this time, whether it is just marginal in that regard , but it may be something that will be brought to the forefront more for discussion at some time in the future. Mr. Fin dlay: Once the national cer tification process is in place, that might be the appropriate time to weigh the pros and cons, the advantages and disadvantages, whether there needs to be any special consideration given. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Deputy Ch airperson, the minister has indicated that he is following through with the reductions in the weed district grants and has received continuing concerns from the weed districts. He indicates that he is working on an integrated structure for progr amming. I am not certain what exactly that involves at the present time. I wonder if the minister would shed some light on exactly what activities have taken place with regard to a new model for weed districts, with a reduction in the funding by the province, and what kinds of services would be integrated, as he says, for financial efficiency.

What progress has been made and where is he at on that new model and what does it involve? Mr. Findlay: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, a district review comm ittee was set up in volving represe ntatives of Manitoba Agriculture, Union of Manitoba Municipalities, weed districts and Farming for Tomorrow organizations to try to look for some model of integration of some of the delivery programs of agricultur e in municipalities across the province to achieve financial efficiency for both municipalities and the Department of Agriculture and the pro vincial government. • (1 620) It is fair to say that discussions have been ongoing for some period of time and they continue on at this point in time.

We will be undoubtedly having a discussion with UMM at their June district meetings on the proposals or recommendations that have come forward to this point. There does seem to be some ability to integr ate weed district activities with soil conservation activities. That is probably one of the more likely things that we can do. Whether there can be integr ation further is still under discussion. I am sure the member remembers that under the weed district program that was in place, only about a little over 50 percent of the municipalities in the province participat ed.

Almost 50 percent of the agricultural area of the provi nce had no weed district activity in it. We would like, through this process , to find the mechanism to have weed district activity cover the province completely. Whether that is achievable or not remains to be seen. We had increased the grant for three consecutive years to try to entice more municipalities to get involved in the weed district program as it existed. That did not work. The municipalities did not see fit to get involved in the program as it existed.

So now we are trying to find a mechanism to have the weed district activities cover all mu nicipalities in some integrated fashion, both for their financial efficiency and for our financial efficiency. Mr. Plohman: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I ask the minister, why would he cut the funding first and destroy the program before putting in place a replacement?

Does it not make more sense to continue the program and at the same time be developing the guidelines for a more integr ated approach and then switch to it, rather than choking it off, in the meantime, and perhaps being left with nothing in many of those areas when the funding is no longer there and getting to that point already? Mr. Findlay: If we had no end of money available to us, probably that would be a way you could go.

We had to swing vast amounts of money from the department into risk protection programs like GRIP and NISA, tripartite , and expenditure reductions had to occur in some areas of the department. This was one area that we chose to reduce expenditures in and, at the same time, trying to find another delivery mechanism that would exis t involving the Department of Agriculture and its ongoing services and the municipalities in their ongoing services that would be cost efficient and program effective for all involved. That is the process we are still in.

May 26, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3809 Mr. Plohman: The Liberal critic the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) mentioned that this was offloading on municipalities. We lose sight of that sometimes, the government does, when it talks about holding taxes down, that in fact it is resulting in tax increases at the municipal levels because a lot of services are being offloaded.

Is that really what the mi nister sees out of this that these services, this integrated approach will be largely paid for by the municipalities or does he foresee an influx of money from the pro vince once there is an integration of the service, that there is going to be a grant available again or is it just going to be services in kind by the departme nt and any funding that has to come from anywhere will have to come from municipalities? Mr. Findlay: It is too early to bring that kind of discussion to this table. It has not been developed.

They still have not reached that stage as yet as to what it will be and who will pay for it. I think it is fair to say municipalities do not feel they can pay any more. We are in a position that we cannot pay any more. We are mutually working together to try to find a solution that achieves program deliveries that are reasonable and effective from both their point of view and our point of view.

In terms of how it can be paid for, the expectation is it can be paid for out of existing expenditures that are presently ongoing in various areas and try to find some efficiency process to achieve additional program activities with no additional cost to either delivery vehicle, the pro vincial government or the municipalities. Mr. Plohm an: Just on the issue of soil conservat ion, for example, the municipalities, I do not believe spend any money on soil conservation as a municipal corpora tion, so I do not know where the integra tion is.

Not that it is not desirable, something has to be done there, but it is a question of whether there is any money being put that could be more efficiently used to do both weed control and soil conserva tion, just for example those two. So I do not know where they are going to achieve a saving there in terms of their delivery of programs, because they are not doing soil-if I am wrong, well, the minister can give me some examples. The only area that I can see that happening is in special pr ojects un der a federal- pro vinc ial agreement where individuals are involved, or maybe the conservation districts.

Conservation districts do not exist in all areas of the pro vince either. Has the minister reviewed the reports and studies that his officials are involved with or the group that is working on this area, that they have brought forward? Are they talking about perhaps using funding from other sources such as federal level or conservation districts ? Mr. Findlay: The member talks about conservation districts and that is not what we are re ferring to here. We are refe rring to the soil and water associations, some 44, which were set up across the pro vince to deliver the Farming for Tomorrow program .

That is all federal and pro vincial money. We are in the process right now of looking at the mechanics of how we can utilize the Gr een Plan money that was announced by the federal minister a few months ago, some $1 70 million for across the country for agriculture in some matching fashion, so those discussions are just getting started as to how we would use them. I would see the soil and water associations as being the basic pedestal on which to build the utilization of those moneys beyond the existing four-year agreement that is in place under Farming for Tomorrow, the soil agreement under the soil accord .

Whether we can dovetail some activities or related activities of weed districts, whether it is in alternate pest management or whatever, into that overall process, utilizing moneys that we are already expending, is the challenge that the department and this committee has. The issue of the Green P lan money is a new issue, a new opportunity, and it will extend us for a period of time and hopefully we will be able to integrate in a broader sense a more efficient delivery of a numb er of program initiatives. Whether it is all achievable or not remains to be seen. Mr.

Plohman: If the minister can accomplish some reverse offloading, that would be fantastic. I would be the first to compliment him if he is able to do that by taking advantage of some federal program ming dollars. They may be not there forever though, and so certainly this is kind of a sporadic approach to it that you might have dollars one year and nothing the next or when the agreement expires. • (1 630) Howeve r, if there is some inf ras tructur e developed on the basis, the chances are that those agreements could be renewe d every five years or whatever the case might be.

But it seems to me that until he has actually got that plan in place, it might

381 0 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 26, 19 92 be wise to put the brakes on this cut, because next year he will not have any funding for weed districts and he may not have this fully developed, this option. Is the min ister sa ying, under those circums tances, that he would review this possibility of maintaining this meagre $4,16 0 per district for a year longer if it took that long, or does he fully expect to have a mature mechanism in place for the next fiscal year? Mr.

Findlay: Certai nly the district program review comm ittee has had various meetings and are maturing their thought proc ess, and there will be discussion of their findings to date at the June district meetings. As we look ahead to the budget for next year, certainly we will be prepared to look at the present expenditure relative to the dir ection that this committee points out as being the most realistic direction to follow, and determine whether it is feasible to follow the reductions as we had previously laid out or reconsider them, and that laying that out is a promise to reverse what we have planned to do.

But we are open-minded enough to consider the pros and cons on an ongoing basis of our expenditures relative to program and delivery objectives we have in a broad sense for the department, and for looking at attra cting as much of that federal Green Plan money to this provi nce as possible. Mr. Plohman: Well, I will leave that issue. I think if we have to develop structures to ensur e we maximize those dollars, then we are wise to do it. In the meantime, though, I do not agree that we should be, as I indicated earlier, cutting programs before we have developed alternatives.

That is why I think the minister has missed the boat on this one. I will turn it over to the Liberal critic. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 4.(d)( 1) Salaries $1 ,984,200. Mr. Gaudry: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am looking over Grant srrransfer Payments here, where there has been a reduction, and it explains at the bottom, but the horticultural society falls under those grants. In 19 81 , you supplied grants to 39 organiza tions, can you give us how many societies were covered in 19 91 -92? Mr. Findlay: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in last year's budget there was zero funding for horticultural societies.

The year previous, my recollection is about $33 ,000 was granted to hor ticultur al societies, but it was removed from last year's budget, so there was no funding in the last budget for horticultural societies. Mr. Gaudry: There was a request from the East Kildonan horticultural society. What have you done with those people as far as their request in regard to reinstating the funding to them? Mr.

Findlay: Yes, we have had two or three requests from hort icultural societies to rei nstate funding, but we have had to respond to them that the decision has been made to terminate those grants and it is not possible at this time to reins tate those grants. Mr. Gaudry: Were they referred back to their muni cipalities to apply for grants in regard to continuing the work they were doing? (Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) Mr. Findlay: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, staff of the departm ent have continued to work with the horticultural societies to try to help them find alternative mechanisms of funding their operations and their umbrella orga nization. So various ways and means of coming up with the resources they need to carry out their func tions have been discussed with them by staff of the department. But the ability of us to reins tate the grant at this time does not exist. Mr. Gaudry: You mentioned that you had tried mun icipalities that they absorb some of these societies.

Have they been successful in doing so by contacting their mu nicipalities? Mr. Findlay: In terms of the discussions, we have not, as a department, promoted that they go to the mun icipalities to find the funding. We have promo ted them to do various thi ngs as an organization so that they become self-sufficient by some mechanism, whether it is membership fees or private sector grants or whatever. But we have not promoted them to go talk to the municipalities to fund them. Mr. Gaudry: Are you aware if any of those societies have folded up because of nonfunding from the government? Mr.

Findlay: As far as we know, at this time, they are all still functioning.

May 26, 19 92 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 381 1 * (1 640) Mr. Gaudry: There has been some indication that there would be construction on an alfalfa pellet plant in Sprag ue or Woodridge . Is there any indication as to whether or not there is going to be an alfalfa pellet plant? Mr. Findlay: There have been numerous groups wanting to develop for age pelleting or proces sing plants in the pro vince. As a department, we have been working with anybody who comes along wanting technical information, guidance. In the Marketing Bra nch, we have been working with that industry, through the Manitoba Forage Council.

We prefer to work through the council, which represents all of them as opposed to directly in the marketing sense with any one

part icular plant. It is a very competitive business. It is not an easy business to get into. It is high cost. It is big investment. We stron gly recom mend to anybody who is looking at it that they do the appropriate market analysis and have a very well researched plan so that they know when they spend their money, make the capital investment, they have

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-3-72
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 3rd hansardpdf 72.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	88f3d0cdd52dbf11cffc715c854706c7b84eb2b3

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