Manitoba Hansard — 25 March 1968 (Sitting 19, 28th Legislature, 2nd Session)

28-2-19

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITO BA 2:30 o'clock, Monday, March 25, 1968 Opening ,prayer by Mr. Speake.r. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees 461 MR . DOUGLAS M. STANES (St. James): Mr. Speaker, I l:Eg to present the report of the special committees of the Hm1se -- the Standing Committees of the House. I have the report down Mr. Speaker. MR. CLERK: Your Special Committee appointed to prepare a list of Members to compose the Standing Co:nmittees ordered by the House, beg leave to present the following as their first report. HON.

STERLING R. LYON Q. C. (Attorney-General)( Fort Garry}. • • • • agreed with the other side of the Huuse we dispense -- this report will appear in Hansard. REPORT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE Your Committee met and prepared the following list of Members to compose the Standing Committees ordered by the House: PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS: Ho::i. Mrs. Forbes, Hon. Messrs. Craik, Lyon, McLean, Spivak, Messrs. Beard, Campbell, Froese, Hanuschak, McKellar, Molgat, Paulley, Stanes, Steen and Tanchak. PUBLIC ACCOUNTS: Hon. Messrs. Baizley, Carroll, Craik, Evans, Lyon, Spivak, Weir, Messrs.

Beard, Bjornson, Campbell, Clement, Dawson, Dow, Einarson, Froese, Hamilton, Harris, Jeannotte, Johnston, McGregor, McKellar, Miller, Molgat, Paulley, Shew man, Uskiw and Watt PUBLIC UTILITIES AND NATURAL RESOURCES: Hon. Messrs. Carroll, Craik, Evans, Johnson, McLean, Witney, Messrs. Beard, Bjornson, Clement, Desjardins, Dow, Fox, Green, Guttormson, Hamilton, Jeannotte, Klym, McGregor, McKenzie, Molgat, Paulley, Stanes, Steen, Vielfaure and Watt. AGRICULTURE AND CONSERVATION: Ho:i. Mr. Enns, Hon. Mrs. Forbes, Hon. Messrs. Johnson, Weir, Witney, Messrs.

Bjornson, Campbell, Cl ement, Dawson, Einarson, Froese, Green, Hamilton, Hanuschak, Kawchuk, Klym, Masniuk, McKellar, McGregor, McKenzie, Mrs. Morrison, Messrs. Shewman, Shoemaker, Tanchak, Uskiw, Vielfaure and Watt. MUNICIPAL AFFAIBS: Ho:i. Mr. Baizley, Hon. Mrs. Turbes, Hon. Messrs. McLean, Messrs. Barkman, Beard, Cowan, Dow, Einarson, Froese, Green, Hamilton, Hill house, Kawchuk, Klym, Lissaman, Masniuk, McKellar, McKe;izie, Miller, Mrs. Morrison, Messrs. Patrick, Shoemaker, Stanes, Steen, Tanchak, Uskiw and Watt. LAW AMENDMENTS: Hon. Messrs. Baizley, Carroll, Craik, Enns, Evans, Hon. Mrs. Forbes, Hon.

Messrs. Johnson, Lyon, McLean, Spivak, Weir, Witney, Messrs. Bark man, Bjornson, Campbell, Cherniack, Clement, Cowan, Dawson, Desjardins, Doern, Dow, Einarson, Froese, Green, Hamilton, Hillhouse, Jeannotte, Johnston, Klym, Lissaman, Mas niuk, McKellar, McKenzie, Miller, Molgat, Mrs. Morrison, Messrs. Roblin, Shewman, Shoe maker, Stanes, Steen, Patrick, Paulley, Petursson, T anchak, Uskiw, Vielfaure and Watt. PRIVATE BILLS, STANDING ORDERS, PRINTING AND LIBRARY: Hon. Messrs. Enns, Witney , Messrs. Barkman, Beard, Bjornson, Campbell, Cowan, Einarson, Hanuschak, Harris, Jeannotte, Klym, McKellar, McKenzie, Mrs.

Morrison, Messrs. Patrick, Pet urs son, Shoemaker, Steen and Vielfaure. INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS: Hon. Messrs. Baizley, Carroll, Craik, Evans, Johnson, Spivak, Witney, Messrs. Beard, Dawson, Desjardins, Fox, Green, Harris, Hillhouse, John ston, Lissaman, Masniuk, McGregor, Patrick and Stanes. STATUTORY ORDERS AND REGULATIONS: Hon. Messrs. Craik, Lyon, McLean, Spivak, Messrs. Campbell, Cherniack, Cowan, Froes, Hamilton, Johnston, Klym, Mo�gat, Pet urrson, Stanes and Steen. All of which is respectfully submitted. MR. STANES: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Ru;>ertsland, that the report of the Committee be received.

462 carried. March 25, 1968 MR . SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion Introduction of Bills. HON. THELMA FORBES (Minister of Urban Development and Municipal Affairs) (Cypress) introduced Bill No. 50,

an Act to amend the Mimicipal Act (1). MR . LYON introduced Bill No. 19,

an Act to amend the Reciprocal Enforcement of Judgments Act; and Bill No. 26,

an Act to amend the Reciprocal Enforcement of Maintenance Orders Act. HON. GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Ed".lcation) (Gimli) introduced Bill No. 20,

an Act to amend the Public Schools Act. HON. STEWART E. MCLEAN Q. C. (Provincial Secretary) (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Education, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider three resol utions which are on the Order Paper in my name. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Wh'.)le with the Honourable Member for Arthur in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE MR. MCLEAN: Mr.

Chairman, His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor having been informed of the subject matter of the proposed resolutions recommends them to the Ho".lse. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee proceed. The Resolutions standing in the name of the Minister of Public Utilities.

Three resolutions, Resolution No. 1: Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure to ame:-id The Manitoba Telephone Act by providing, among other matters, authority for The Manitoba Telephone Commission to borrow by way of over draft, line of credit, or loan, or otherwise upon the credit of the commission, amounts not exceeding in the aggregate the sum of ten million dollars of principal outstanding at any time, and authority for the Government to guarantee the payment of the principal and interest on such borrowings. MR. MCLEAN: Mr.

Chairman, the i;resent what would be called temporary bor- rowing authority of the Manitoba Telephone System is established at $5 million and the purpose of this Bill is to increase that limit to $10 million.

This reflects the expanded operations of the Manitoba Telephone System, and of course the increased costs of doing their work, and I would recommend -- well this is the Committee stage and we will have an opportunity of dis cussing it, and I would just point out that there will be an additional opportunity of the mem - bers asking the officials of the Telephone System more details about the nature of their temp orary borrowing when they appear before the Committee which begins its deliberations to morrow, although the Telephone System will not be appearing for a matter of four or five days. MR.

DOUGLAS CAMPBELL (Lakeside): Mr. Chairman, I was wondering if one of the reasons that the Honourable the Minister is recommending an increase in the emergency borrowing powers of this Commission is that he thinks that by having some short-term borrow ing of this kind that he might be able to tide them over until unterest rates become a little more favourable or is he really trying in this case to forecast the market, or is it the fact that the operations really require some such added credit? I'd like the Minister if he would to tell me what the "otherwise" means.

It seems to me that this says they could borrow by overdraft, line of credit, or loan. What would be the other method in addition to those? MR . MCLEAN: Mr. Chairman, there is no attempt here to forecast the capital market nor to provide against the increasing interest rates. That might conceivably be some thing -- I doubt very much if that would have any bearing on this. I think it's required for the ordinary operating operations of the utility and it's recommended by the utility on that basis. I have to confess, Mr.

Chairman, to the Ho:10urable Member for Lakeside, that I don't know what the words "or otherwise" mean. My understanding of it is that it's an overdraft or line of credit that is involved and I would be unable to explain the use of those other words. MR . GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Op;iosition)(Ste. Rose): Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indicate where the amount of overdraft is shown in the statement of the Telephone System? I have the statement before me and I see nothing in current liabilities

March 25, 1968 463 (MR. MOL GA T cont' d.). . • • indicating any amount going to the bank. MR. JACOB M. FROESE (RHINELAND): Mr. Chairman, it seems rather high that they would require ten million of short-term money for operating purposes when their total in come this last year just amounted to roughly $40 million. This would represent 25 percent of the total income .'.)f the Hydro. Unless part of this mo:i.ey is going to be spent on capital, I can't quite see where they would use that much mo"'ley. MR. MCLEAN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I'm sorry I can't answer the question of the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. I don't know, perhaps it could well be that at the time of that statement there was no money owing to the bank on short-term credit. I would have to acknowledge my ignorance as to the fact that there is no item covering this item in the state ment currently before the members.

I think, answering the Member for Rhineland, that this would be related to capital expansion of the Telephone System, and the honourable the member will remember, or know, that approximately $30 million a year in capital improve IllSlt is made to the Manitoba Tele phone System, and that when one is thinking of this amount you relate it to that figure, and of course if one is looking at it from a percentage point of view, I suppose it makes the percentage comparison even worse than he had suggested. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could obtain for us then some indications of the use of this borrowing power by the Telephone System. It may be here in the statement - I may be missing it - but I was under the impression that the Telephone Sys tem business was a fairly steady one over the years, that it did not have any great peaks by comparison to certain other businesses, and that if they are not using their present line of credit at the time of their balance sheet, do they in fact need an increase in their line of credit?

Maybe they do, but could the Minister undertake to provide to the Ho'..lBe some idea of their flow and use of this present credit? MR. MCLEAN: Mr. Chairman, I think a much more useful exercise, if I might suggest, would be to have a full discussion of this at committee when the telephone people are there to give that explanation. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that they're probably trying to avoid long-term capital arrargements at this particular time when the cost of money is high and that this is why they're asking for this large amount under current borrowings.

I mean this seems to be the answer as far as I'm c::mcerned. MR. CHAffiMAN: Reso lution be adopted? MR. CHAffiMAN: The second resolution standing in the name of the Minister of Public utilities.

Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend The Manitoba Hydro Act by providing, among other matters, authority for The Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board to bor - row by way of overdraft, line of credit, or loan, or otherwise upon the credit of the corpora tion, amounts not exceeding in aggregate the sum of fifty million dollars of principal outstand ing at any time, and authority for the government to guarantee the payment of the principal and interest on such borrowings. MR.

MCLEAN: The principle of this Bill is identical with that regarding the Mani- toba Telephone System, the diff erence of course being in the amount. Their present borrowing limit is $20 million and we are requesting here authority to increase that amount to $50 million. This is related to the sane general matters that I referred to in connection with the Telephone System,plus the large sums of money that are require:! in connection with the development of the Nelson River project.

Here again it would be my suggestion that we could have a full discus - sion at committee both as to the source of these funds and the manner in which they are used, and the manner in which this borrowing authority is used. I should perhaps make one comment, that there is just in the final portion of the resolution a reference to a guarantee by the govern ment. The provision is that the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council may guarantee.

The guar antee is not automatic rut rather is provided in any particular case, presumably where re quested, and then of course only if the Lieutenant-Gov ernor-in-Council is prepared to approve. MR. CAMPBELL: Is it not a fact, Mr. Chairman, that all the borrowings of the Power Commission as well as the Telephone Commission up to date have been guaranteed by the province? MR. MCLEAN: I believe that's so, yes. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, just one point while we're discussing this whole

464 March 25, 1968 (MR. FROESE cont'd.) .•. matter. I take it that any new borrowings that are being made either by the telephone or the hydro are done so on the entities of the Telephone System and the Manitoba Hydro and therefore will have nothing to do with what you have shown on the est imates here on the back sheet where certain revenues from these entities come in and will have to be repaid by the government. Am I right in this, that these moneys that are being present ly borrowed are all under the individual entities' name? MR. MCLEAN: That's correct. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution be adopted? HON.

GURNEY EVANS (Provincial Treasurer)(Fort Rouge): I wonder, Mr. Chair man, if I can make one remark in connection with what the Member for Lakeside said. I think with respect to short-term borrowings within their present limits, each of the utilities bor rows on their own credit without a specific Government of Manitoba guarantee. I don't know whether I caught his remark correctly or not, but I thought in case he got the impression that the government was guaranteeing the day-to-day bank loans of these utilities, that is not the case. MR. CAMPBELL: Would my honourable friend, Mr.

Chairman, not agree with me though that the moment that legislation goes through saying that such guarantees are available that the Cabinet will be -- my honourable friend will immediately be asked to guarantee even the short-term borrowings? MR. EVANS: Well, it may well happen; it hasn't happened to me so far. MR. CHAffiM.AN: Resolution be adopted?

Resolution No. 3: Reaolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure to ame:id The Highway Traffic Act by providing, among other matters, for the appointment of experts or persons having technical or special knowledge to assist the traffic board and to provide for their remm1eration. MR. MCLEAN: Mr. Chairman, when the present Highway Traffic Act was intro duced, provision was made for the appointment of what is known as the Highway Traffic and Motor Transport Board which took over certain duties that had formerly been discharged, by tre Motor Transit Board, I think, and certain other duties.

This Board is engaged of course not only in the administration, the hearings that it holds, but it is involved is such matters as discussions about reciprocity and related matters of interest, and from time to time it is nec essary for them to employ consultants who will advise them and provide them .with information that will be useful to the board in its deliberations.

This proposed amendment would author ize them to employ such people and of course to assure their payment, and is a measure which is similar to provisions that already exist with regard to the Public Utilities Board, and I think - and I'm sorry I didn't have an opportunity to check this - but I think the same authority exists with regard to the Municipal Board, and we recommend it as a necessary authority for tre Board in carrying out its duties. MR. FROESE: Mr.

Chairman, am I correct from what the Minister said that these will be new positions that are being opened up that have not been in existence before -- these positions will be new positions? MR. MCLEAN: Well, they're not, Mr. Chairman , they're not positions. When the Board would have a specific matter to be investigated, they would engage consultants presum ably to gather information and to advise them. The work has heretofore been done under the general authority of the government to engage people for that purpose.

This would make it quite clear that the authority existed within the statute for the purpose of the Board itself. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, the wording of the resolution would indicate though that the thinking of my honourable friend· from Rhineland was correct, because it says "for the appointment of experts" rather than the "employment". I would gather that quite likely what is intended is a combination of both, is it not? MR. MCLEAN: I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, now that this matter has been drawn.

I would think that the resolution might have been better worded if it said: "Among other matters, for retaining experts or persons", because that is clearly what is intended. MR;' CAl\IPBELL: Appointments are not intended, is that right? MF. MCLEAN: That is correct. MR; CHAmMAN: Resolution be adopted? Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. M;r. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has adopted certain resolutions, directed me to report L ... e same and asks leave to sit again.

March 25, I 968 465 IN SESSION MR . DOUGLAS .J. WATT (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Springfield, that the report of the Committee be received. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . Mc LEAN introduced Bill No. 38,

an Act to amend the Manitoba Telephone Act; Bill No. 22,

an Act to Amend The Manitoba Hydro Act; and Bill No. 37,

an Act to amend The Highway Traffic Act. MR , SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I wo·J.l.d like to direct the attention of the hon ourable members to the gallery where we have 30 students of Grade 4 standing of the Lans downe School. These students are under the direction of Mrs. Moroz. This school is locat ed in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Inkster. We also have with us today 25 students of Grade 11 standing from the Garden City School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Groff. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Seven Oaks.

On behalf of all the Honourable Members of the Legislative Assembly, I wel come you all here today. Orders of the. Day. The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. OBIE BAIZLEY (Minister of Labour)(Osborne): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to correct an answer that I gave to the Honourable Member from Kildonan on Th·1rsday last. At that time he asked if all the recommendations of the Woods Committee had been put into the amendments to the Employment Standards Bill, and my answer was "yes". Well, Mr.

Speaker, it's come to my attention that in one of the recom mendations of the committee it was altered slightly, and I refer to subsection (2) of

Section 30, which recommendation from the committee was that there should only be 30 days for an em ployer to pay for a statutory holiday that. the individual had worked or that he shou ld pay ov er time. The government feels that this 30-day period should be extended by mutual agreement between the employer and the employee, and that is in the Bill. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR . FOX: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'd like to thanl{ the Honourable Minister of Labour for this correction, and I would also like to ask him whether he has not since received correspondence from the Woods Committee objecting to this correction - to this amendment. MR. BAIZLEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question -- I presume that it should go to the Pro vincial Treasurer. Does the San Antonio Gold Mine, or whatever the proper name of that enterprise is, still owe money to the government of Manitoba? MR .

EVANS: I think matters concerning that contract are looked after by the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. I am informed that this is now the subject of an Order for Return and the information will be supplied. MR . MOLGA T: I appreciate that, but I wonder if the Minister could tell us whether they owe money presently. HON. DONALD W. CRAIK(Minister of Mines and Natural Resources)(St. Vital): Yes, there is money still outstanding on the original loan. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elm wood. MR . DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Minis ter of Agriculture.

There have been indications in the press that the Horsemen's Benevolent and Protect ive Society or Association is going to block racing in Manitoba this year. I won der if the Minister could tell me what the government's position is on this, what their last statements were to this Association. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Minister of Agriculture and Conservation)(Rockwood-lber ville): Mr. Speaker, the government's position on this matter is unchanged. We are hope ful that suitable arrangements will be made between the track owners and the horsemen so that Manitoba citizens will enjoy a racing season this year. MR.

RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood): A supplementary question. Is the government going to make any concessions or are they holding fast. Are they prepared to make any con cessions to have racing in operation this year? MR . ENNS: I think, Mr. Speaker, I already answered that question when I stated

466 March 25, 1968 (MR. ENNS cont'd.) .• .• • the government's position is mchanged. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Education. Is there any substance to the rumors that many of the Hut terite schools might be closed, that is in the districts that voted for a larger school division? MR. JOHNSON: Right offhand I think in all but two divisions arrangements have been made by the divisional boards.

I believe there are two divisions where a notice has been given by the divisional boards that they would like these children to come to consolidated schools. Now whether these have been finalized or not, I don't know. The only thing that's been brought to my attention is one division did write to this group and suggested an arrangement for the child ren in a grouping of some kind, but that was not accepted I believe. However, as this is under the jurisdiction of the divisional boards concerned, I would have to get a more precise answer for my honourable friend.

This is, as I recall it, the last time I reviewed it. MR. DESJARDINS: A subsequent question. Is it the intention of the Minister to look into this? I know it's the jurisdiction of somebody else but it's also your jurisdiction. I think that there's a special factor there that might cause some trouble I think. You might have these people that will not have any education if this is left. In other words, are you looking into this -- is the Minister of Education looking into this himself? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. OOERN: A question to the Attorney-General.

I understand that people apply ing for permission to be liquor waiters or waitresses are asked whether or not they have a criminal record. This is one of the questions. Could the Minister tell me if this is so, and secondly, would a criminal record block somebody from receiving this licence? MR. LYON: I would have to take the question as notice, Mr. Speaker. I don't know the anewer offhand. A quick reference to the Liquor Control Act might satisfy my honourable friend as to the requirements, but I'll take the question as notice and get him what answer I can. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition.

MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, I'd like a further question of the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources regarding San Antonio. In view of the fact that there's still money owed to the Province of Manitoba, does the government get regular reports on the status of the mine's progress and is the government satisfied with the present situation? MR. CRAIK: Well, Mr. Speaker, we do get regular reports on the mine. However, we don't check the mine on a week-to-week or day-to-day basis. I can't tell you the actual date of the last report, but we do get progress reports on their output and so on. MR.

MOLGAT: A third question, Mr. Speaker. Have there been any further negot iations between that company and the government in recent weeks? MR. CRAIK: We have had discussions with the company, but not in recent weeks. MR. DESJARDINS: A question to the Honourabl e Minister of Education. Is it a fact that the distance travelled by some elementary school students is well over 75 miles round trip? MR. JOHNSON: I couldn't answer that offhand. Not to my knowledge. I know of no case in point. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, could the Minister try to get the answer then for a later date? Thank you. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. BEN HANUSCHAK (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the Honourable the Attorney-General. Could he inform the House as to the length of time for which fingerprints, photographs are kept on file by his department or anyone falling under the juris diction of his department - any police detachment and such? MR. LYON: I couldn't give an answer to that, Mr. Speaker, because of course this information is not retained by the provincial department.

It is retained by the individual police forces, and to the best of my knowledge, the requirement for this is contained in the Criminal Code of Canada. If I can obtain any further information I will do so for my honourable friend. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I may have your permission to inform the House of the Flood Forecasting Committee's recent meeting - it's their second meeting - held on March 22, 1968. The committee met to review the situation concerning flood prospects on the Red and Assiniboine Rivers.

The committee reports that a Stage at Winnipeg is well below

March 25, 1968 467 (MR. ENNS cont'd.) .••. the first flood stage of 18 feet city datum is indicated. Furthermore, indications are that the Red Ri ver between Emerson and Winnipeg will be confined within its banks. On the Assiniboine River, below normal spring peaks are indicated and there's no evidence that flood stages will be reached, although ice jams of course could cause local flood ing between Portage la Prairie and Winnipeg. The situation on both rivers will be under constant surveillance by the committee up to and through the break-up period.

Should unusual conditions develop causing a marked change in the above forecast, further reports will be issued. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could ask a question of the Minister on that statement. In 1966, the indications earlier in the winter were that there would be no flood, then we had that very very heavy snow storm in early March. Supposing the same conditions were to occur this year and we were to have extremely heavy snowfall in the valley in the course of the next few days, would the Red River Floodway be available for use th is year in the event of it being needed? MR.

ENNS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the Floodway would be operational in the event that it's required. MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of N.D. P.)(Radisson): Mr. Speaker, may I ad dress a question to the Honourable Minister of Agriculture dealing with the matter of flooding. Have all of the outstanding claims for compensation in respect of past flooding occurrences been resolved as of today? MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, there are of course different areas of flooding where the province has been involved in paying compensation.

I am assuming that he is referring gener ally to the Red River Valley claims that were operating under the direction of the Red River Valley Flood Board. No, there are a number of outstanding claims that are still being dealt with. The greater majority of these involve moving, the moving of buildings. It was found that there were just not sufficient equipment to move the number of applicants in time.

I may inform the House that the earlier announced deadline cf the Red River Valley Board's operation ending March 31st of this year has been extended for a further year to accom modate the clean-up of this operation. There will be some further ring diking, and some fur ther plateau building going on within the valley, and hopefully the remainder of the buildings for which we already have applicants will be moved out of the flood zone. MR. PAULLEY: If I may, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question dealing with the overall picture of compensation for flooding and the result of installation of flooding.

Can my honourable friend indicate to me whether or not claims for compensation as the result of the lowering of the water table, or change in the water content to be a saline content which was harmful to bedding plants, been resolved? MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Speaker, some of these are pending and before Cabinet con sideration at this time. MR. PAULLEY: Excuse me, Mr. Speaker, I didn't hear my honourabl e friend's last couple of sentences. MR. ENNS: I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, Some of the particular claims that the Lea der of the New Democratic Party refers to are before Cabinet for consideration at this time.

Some of these claims have been dealt with. We are now dealing with a few specific commer cial claims that are still unresolved. MR. PAULLEY: Could the Minister, Mr. Speaker, indicate when they may be re solved? I do know that some of them are outstanding for some consideration of time. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders are called, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable the Attorney-General.

In the past number of weeks there has been some concern on the part of both students and parents of the University of Winnipeg over the way the "Uniter" publication has been handled in recent issues, or I should say at least one recent issue. Is the Attorney-General 's Department taking any steps to lay an obscenity charge against those people who are responsible for a publication such as this -- and I will send it over to the Honourable Attorney-General if he so wishes. I will not sully the pages of Hansard by quoting out of the offendi ng article, Mr.

Speaker, but my question is: Is the Attorney-General's Department laying a charge against the people re sponsible for a publication like this? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, to the best of my knowledge no charge has been laid or

468 March 25, 1968 (MR. LYON cont'd.) •••• contemplated, and I'm not aware that any complaint has been made. I'll be happy to receive the particular issue from my honourable friend and have it reviewed. MR. JOHNSTON: I would be very happy to lay the charge myself. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the First Minister. I believe this comes under him due to the fact that the announcement last year was made by his predecessor. I'm referring to the Committee for the Status of Women.

I see no particu lar reference in the estimates for any funds for the operation of that Committee. Is there somewhere in the estimates some money for this? Is it the intention of providing funds to them this year? HON. THELMA FORBES (Minister of Urban Development and Municipal Affairs) (Cypress): Mr. Speaker, I think I'd like to answer that question if I may.

I think we should give every nod to the women of Manitoba because they simply have done all of this on a volun tary plan and we really have been very fortunate in Manitoba that we have women of their cali bre who have done this work without charging for it. Now we did supply them with a meeting room in the building any time that they asked us to so do. Besides that, we have an agreement with them that we will print the report - the final report.

And as I understand it, the reports are coming in from the various groups in a form which really will not require much reprinting and this is another thing that I think they have handled very well. So I have no idea just how much it might cost to print that final re port. A third item was that they wanted to take the matter out of the urban area and into the rural area so that women in the rural parts of Manitoba might have a chance to have rep resentation, and we agreed to pay their out-of-pocket expenses on those occasions.

They were out for one week, and then I believe one day up in the Interlake, and to date I m ve not received the accounts of that but I understand that it's quite small. They kept it down to the minimum of travelling expenses and in many cases they were billeted and didn't have a charge at a hotel for staying, and in many cases their meals were provided. But I understand there are some expenses but none have been handed in to me to date. Su, Mr. Speaker, it's very hard at this time to say just what we will have to pay, but I must say that I think it will be a very small amount.

And indeed I am very very proud of the women of Manitoba that they have done this, they have gone about it, they've taken their time and their energy, and they mve not charged it against the Province of Manitoba but it has been mostly on a voluntary basis. MR . MOLGAT: I thank the Minister for her comprehensive statement, but my ques tion was: Are there any funds in these estimates for the Status of Women Committee? HON. WALTER WEffi (Premier)(Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, I don't think there's anything in there specifically for them. MR. MOLGAT: The answer is "no" then? I'd like to ask a subsequent question.

Has there been a request for any assistance insofar as research staff and any special studies? MRS. FORBES: No, Mr. Speaker, there has not been. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture. Earlier in the Session the Honourable Minister made mention of a possible meeting with the federal authorities and probably other bodies in connection with the Pembina River Basin Development which was under study by the International Joint Com mission. Are they proceeding with this?

Is there going to be a meeting and are they proceed ing with this matter? MR. ENNS: We have received, Mr. Speaker, at this point, no reply to a letter sent under under my signature to the Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines, Mr. Pepin. I am awaiting word or confirmation of such a meeting to take place, at which time we would hope to enter into some preliminary ·discussions. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to table a Return to an Order of the House, No. 40, on the motion of the Honourable Member for St.

George dated February 10, 1967. MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed with Orders of the Day, I wonder if I might make a small announcement, and that is, as all honourable members know, we will be

March 25, 1968 469 (MR. SPEAKER cont'd.) ..• honoured with a visit from the Go vernor-General tomorrow after noon, and I would like them to know that if their wives wish to view this ceremony they of course would be most welcome and I'd like them to know that my gallery will be av ailable for the wives of the honourable members on that occasion. I would ask if they are going to come that they would be good enough to be in their places by 4:15 , that is tomorrow afternoon. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR.SP EAKBR: Orders for Return. The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. l\ffi. �AUL MILLER (Seven Oaks): Mr . Speaker, I beg to move, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing:

(1) The names of the firms awarded contracts on Tenders No. 14-486 and No. 10-612. ( 2) The tendered prices submitted by these firms. ( 3) The prices submitted by the other firms. Seconded by the Member for Kildonan. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR . McLEAN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you would be good enough to leave this matter stand on the Order Paper. If it's necessary to have it stand in the name of a member, I would be happy to have it stand in my name. MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? MR . MILLER: As far as I'm concerned. MR. PAULLEY: It's a rather unusual procedure may I suggest, Mr.

Speaker. The member has proposed a motion. If my honourable friend wishes to hold, I would suggest that he should adjourn the debate because a member actually has already presented the motion by moving it. lVIR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minister have leave to allow this matter to stand in his name? MR. McL_EAN: Mr. Speaker, I have no objection to adjourning the -- I didn't really think there had been any debate, but if that is helpful I would be happy to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Health, that the debate be adjourned. MR.

SPEAKER: The Minister of Health is not in his place. --(Interjection)-- Oh, I'm sorry. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car- ried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. PETER FOX (Kildonan): Mr . Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Burrows , that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: Information indicating printing done for all departments of the Government and Crown Corporations for the year 1967 with particulars as to: (

a) Names of printing firms. (

b) Total amount for each firm. (

c) Whether same was ordered by tender, quotation or otherwise. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car- ried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. John's. MR . SAUL M. CHERNIACK, Q.C. (St. John's): Mr . Speaker, I beg to move, secon ded by the Honourable the Member for Logan, the motion which appears on the Order Paper in my name. I'm hoping someone will say "dispense", but if not I'll read it, and it should be of course recorded in Hansard, Mr. Speaker. Order for Return: That an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: 1.

The breakdown between interest and investigation fees which totalled $1, 721, 658 in 1967 and $712, 87 2, 00. in 1966 referred to on page 16 of the report of the Manitoba Develop ment Fund. 2. A breakdown of administrative fee of $15, OOO. 00 in each year as to payor and purpose. 3. A breakdown of "other operating expenses" of $173, 075 in 1967 and $94, 448 in 1966 as to nature, amount, recipient and, where applicable, particulars as to specific loans in volved. 4. What is the amount of each of"interest and service charge" and to whom is same paid, and what is the nature of "service charge"?

470 March 25, 1968 (MR. CHERNIACK cont'd) ... 5. A breakdown of provision for bad and doubtbul debts as to: (

a) basis for calculation. (

b) the number of months of arrears. (

c) the number of loans affected. 6. Has there been any moratorium ©n clnrging of interest on any loans, and if the answer is yes, then full particulars of same as to: (

a) number of loans. (

b) period of waiver of interest. (

c) amount of interest waived. Re Assets Statement 7. In relation to the assets statement on page 14 of the Manitoba Development Fund report, a breakdown between the amount and number of loans receivable and leasehold proper ties, both as to the gross values, and the provision and formula for estimat ed losses. 8. A copy of the manual governing the operating procedures of the Fund referred to in the le tter of V. C. Sullivan dated October 10, 1967, 9. A copy of the research and development program referred to as paragraph 10 of the Sullivan letter. 10.

In the case of the eight occasions when the Fund exercised its security and the additional occasion when the shares of the borrower were transferred to nominees of the Fund, the following information in each case: (

a) the amount involved. (

b) the estimated loss to the Fund. (

c) the estimated loss to the owner. (

d) the estimated loss to other creditors. (

e) the vari ation in terms of repayment agreed to on the change of management. (

f) the manner in which change of management took place. 11. Verification of the statement in paragraph 7 of the letter of March 8, 1968 from the Fund's solicitor to the effect that there is a reserve for doubtful accounts in excess of $900, OOO. 00 and where this figure appears in the statement of Assets and Liabilities. 12. The number of proposals reviewed for consideration for activities under

Part II of the Act in relation to: (

a) The number proposed by each of private enterprises, promoters, govern ments, officials of the Fund, and others. (

b) The amounts involved. (

c) The industries involved. Now, if the government •...•... MR . SPEAKER: I'm sure the honourable gentleman will wait until I put it to the floor, will he? Who was your seconder? MR . CHERNIACK: Logan. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion . MR . CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, if the government is prepared to accept the Order then I see no need to debate it, otherwise, I would like to make some comments. HON. SIDNEY SPivAK, Q. C.(Minister of Industry and Commerce) (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to move - if the honourable member will agree - and seconded by the Minister of Urban Development and Municipal Affairs, that the debate be adjourned. MR . CHERNIACK: Then if the Government is not accepting it, then I do want to exercise my right to speak. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I raise the point of order that we do in fact now have a motion before the House to adjourn the debate. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr. Speaker .•.•• MR . EVANS: I wonder if I have the floor?

That my honourable friend's difficulty might be overcome because he will have an opportunity to close the debate, and it seems to me that it would not be in order to have the honourable gentleman speak now. MR . CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, If I may. I understood that I had taken my seat in order to give the Minister an opportunity to indicate whether or not he was willing to ac - cept the Order so that I would know whether or not I would wish to speak. Now if that's not the case, then there's some misunderstanding here. MR . SPIVAK: •. .••.•• Mr. Speaker to adjourn the debate. If you want to debate it

March 25, 1968 471 (MR. SPIVAK cont'd. ) .••• now this is fine. MR. CHERNIACK: Then may I speak, Mr. Speaker? MR. PAULLEY: I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, in order to get back on all four square, that the Minister of Industry and Commerce be given unanimous consent to withdraw his motion . MR. SPEAKER: I wonder if we might not speed -- I beg your pardon? MR. PAULLEY: I understand the Minister agrees with that procedure and then you won't have that motion before you. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

We have followed the practice, it seems to me, that in circumstances such as this that had the Minister in moving his motion said that F some one else wishes to speak it would be quite all right with him, and possibly the Member for St. John would fit into that category. I'm open for advice in that particular regard. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr. Speaker, in framing this -- I'm not closing the debate incidentally, just to reassure the Honourable Minister -- in drafting this Order, Mr.

Speaker, I tried to be extremely careful to ask questions which are designed to more fully understand the report which has been filed with us and the financial statements. There are certain items in the statement which bulk certain items into one category, and the first would indicate what I mean. It says on Page 16: Interest and Investigation Fees, one million seven hundred thousand. Now I understand that the Fund makes a charge to the borrower of a certain percentage - it may be one or two percent - which it charges for investigation and the balance of course is interest on the loan.

I'm asking for a division of that so that we can more fully understand it, and that goes on for a number of the following items just to get further clarification of that information which has been presented to us. I have made a strong effort, Mr. Speaker, to avoid asking any questions which would appear to put the government in a position where it or the Fund would be in breach of any confidence, imagined or actual, and I think I should make it clear it is not my intention.

If the Minister reads into any of these questions a possibility of a breach of confidence taking place, then I invite the Minister to indicate to me the manner in which he reads that in and I would be quite prepared to consider amending or varying the Order so that it should suit the basis on which I am asking these questions, because all I'm asking is information of what I think should be available to the public that will reveal the manner in which the Board operates and to more fully understand the statement. Then I dealt, Mr.

Speaker, with some of the letters that were attached to the statement, and I find reference to a manual governing operating procedures of the Fund. It seems to me we should be entitled to see what that is. There is reference to a research and development program. I asked for a copy of that. If there is no program then the answer will be clear that there isn't one. And then I asked for information as to how the Fund has dealt with the nine specific occasions where it exercised its security or received the transfer of shares.

The information there, I believe too, is not one where it need be related to the name of a company but should only give us an idea of what was involved and what losses occurred. What I think is of extreme interest in judging how the Fund operates are the quest ions such as : What did the owner lose? Let's assume the Fund lost nothing. What did the investor lose in that? Or how did his creditors fare? Now this information, if it's available, would be I think a matter of interest for this House to explore and examine just how the Fund operates.

If the information isn't available to the Fund then naturally they will say so. There is also a statement by the Fund solicitor in his letter referring to a reserve of $900, OOO, and with my limited accounting experience I was unable to find that in the state ment unless it could possibly be -- I didn't want to use the word "concealed" because I don't mean any intention like that -- but there is a statement: Loans Receivable Net. Possibly the difference between the statement given here and the gross loans receivable is the $900, OOO figure referred to. But it doesn't matter.

If it were indicated we would know where it be longs. And the last question is one which I think is again very important for the House to know because we have a "nil" report attached to this to the effect that the government has not -- or the Fund rather -- did not.act as agents for the province or carry out any activities under

Part II. I am under the impression, whether it's just a figment of my imagination or otherwise, that there must have been proposals made to the Fund that it should examine,

472 March 25, 19 68 (MR. CHERNIACK cont'd) ..... explore, consider a development under

Part II of the Fund, and since that part and all work under it is clearly a matter which comes within the purview of the government, the Minister and the House, I think we're entitled to know what exactly has the government done in this under

Part II. How many proposals have been received; what is the nature of the proposals; who has been interested in making proposals to the govern ment and how many came from the government's own resources; what amounts were involved; and what industries were concerned. Again, Mr. Speaker, I want to stress that I am not in this Order requesting information about the names of companies; the names of peoples; the locations of industries or anything which is recognizable, or which I think is recognizable in terms of breach of confidence.

And in that sense I hope that the government will agree to accept the Order, and if in any way there seems to be something questionable about any of the matters requested in this lengthy Order, then I invite the Minister to so indicate and I invite the Minister to make suggestions for variations which would produce the desired results in order that we should get as much infor mation as possible of a legitimate nature. MR . SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minister intend to repeat his motion or shall I put it to the fl oar. MR. SPIVAK: Oh yes. MR.

SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Second reading of Bills. Bill No. 10. The Honourable the Provincial Secretary. MR. McLEAN: Mr. Speaker, with permission of the House, may this matter stand? MR. SPEAKER adjourned debate on Second Readings. Bill No. 27. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. ALBERT VIELFAURE (La Verendrye): Mr. Speaker,'I'm still looking for some material on this Bill and I ask leave to have this matter stand, unless somebody else wishes to speak, I have no objection. MR . SPEAKER: Second Readings. Bill No. 14.

The Honourable the Minister of Mun icipal Affairs. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, perhaps you could call No. 24 and perhaps the Minister will be back in her place by the time we finish with 24 and 35. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 24. The Honourable the Attorney-General. MR . LYON presented Bill No. 24,

an Act to amend The Queen's Bench Act, for second reading. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, this is self-explanatory, it allows the appointment of more than one Deputy to the Prothonotary, the accountant in the Court of Queen's Bench. MR . SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill no. 35. The Honourable the Provincial Treasurer. MR . EVANS presented Bill No. 35,

an Act to amend The Treasury Act, for second reading. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion. MR . EVANS: Mr. Speaker, this Bill contains three principles. The first is to change the form in which the government gives security to the bank for any overdrafts. The present procedure is to provide the bank with a large quantity of treasury bills and they select suf ficient each day to cover any overdraft of that day and transfer them to the banks own keeping. This means that we must provide the bank with a very substantial amount of treasury bills and keep them in being.

It is not practical to issue treasury bills in one day and get them down to the bank by the close of business that night. Each treasury bill requires an Order in- Council; it takes some time to create and certainly some time to deliver; so that's not a practical procedure. The practice has been to place a sufficient quantity of treasury bills in the hands of the bank to cover any possible overdraft. This has had the effect of providing the bank with more security than is required.

Some days the overdraft will be quite small, some other days it will be quite large, and sufficient treasury bills must be kept in hand at the bank to cover the largest amount of overdraft that is authorized. Now all of these treasury bills add to the public debt and appear in the total of the pub lic debt, and that is not an advantage in these days when the accounts and the debts of the province are being examined by people in the investment business and people who might loan

March 25, 196 8 (MR. EVANS cont' d. ) .... . money to the province. The Bill now proposes to change that procedure and provide the bank with a variable instrument, so that appearing on the face of what will substitute for the treasury bill will be only the amount of the overdraft at the. close of business on any given day.

Conse quently, it's only the amount of money that the province requires and has in fact drawn from the bank that will be shown as a part of the public debt and that will consti tute the face value of the treasury bill in question. 473 The second principle of the Bill is to raise the amount available for accountable advances from $100, OOO to $200, 000. Acco untable advances are required for quite a variety of pur poses. The first is out-of-pocket expenses for personnel in the field in the province and also when travelling on government busine ss. It's required for petty cash funds in all departments.

It's required for such things as buying unemployment insurance stamps; for assizes expenses including payments to jurors, witnesses, etc. - and this has amounted to as much as $30, OOO at one time; payments to employees as advances on their salaries when they would be away on holidays and would otherwise miss their pay cheque; advances to cover such items as snow plowing, road work expenses, flood emergency and winter works. This fund is used to cut down the delay of recompense for immediate or urgent emergency expenses.

On occasion it is advisable to pay out of a petty cash fund some small accounts for wages rather than to wait the time neces sary for the account to be put through and a payroll created and a cheque issued. The fund is used also to provide foreign exchange, as required, and this has been as much as $25, OOO at one time ; and for payment of advances such as are required to be paid into a court or for registration fees. Those are the eight main classes of expenses which are met from the accountable advance fund.

There is a third principle in the Bill and that is that the Treasury Act specifies the length of time that certain types of documents and records must be kept in the Treasury De partment. They are contained in the Act and honourable gentlemen can read them there; I don 't think I need to repeat them here. It is provided in this Bill that upon the consent of the Comptroller-General and upon a satisfactory photographic copy being retained, then certain of the documents may be disposed of in shorter periods than specified in the Act. I repeat the conditions.

Only upon it being satisfactory to the Comptroller-General and only upon a sat isfactory photographic copy being kept can the original documents be destroyed. I might point out that even under present conditions we have been able to dispose of very large quan tities of documents - even under the present conditions. I'm informed that we have disposed of 25, OOO pounds of records in recent months - that's 12 1/2 tons - and that we have been able to free approximately 1, OOO filing cabinet drawers of materials.

And for convenience of the Civil Service itself and even for the saving of money, this is an accomplishment. It will make it that much easier and we'll be able to dispose of that much more material if this amendment is passed by the House. I might indicate at this time that at the committee stage I will be introducing an amend ment which will make it rather clearer what is meant by a photographic copy.

I think the present wording is a little too vague and it should be inserted in the Act that it is a photo graphic copy of a type that would be satisfactory for evidence in court and certainly of a type satisfactory to our own Comptroller-General. Those then are the three principles in the Bill, Mr. Speaker, and I commend them to the Ho use. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Hon ourable Minister of Municipal Affairs have leave to come back to Bill No. 14 ? MRS. FORBE S presented Bill No. 14,

an Act to amend The Municipal Boundaries Act, for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MRS. FORBES: Mr. Speaker, when the Local Government District of Pinawa was est ablished, the agreement between the Province of Manitoba and Atomic En ergy of Canada Limited provided that the five islands which are in the Winnipeg River would be included with in the boundaries of the Local Government District of Pinawa.

Now when the boundaries of the Rural Municipality of Lac du Bonnet were being amended to provide for the establishment of the Local Government District of Pinawa, the land description of these islands was inad vertently left out of the description. In other words, they were not included in the exemptions under

Section 59.

474 March 25, 19 68 (MRS. FORBES cont' d. ): ...•. The five islands in question, Mr. Speaker, are sub ject to a caveat by Manitoba Hycro. They are owned by the Crown and the Rural JYLunicipality of Lac du Bonnet does not receive any tax revenue from them nor does the Local Government District of Pinawa re ceive any tax revenue. Some of these islands are situated quite close to the townsite of Pinawa and recently there has been some shooting taking place on these islands which could result in an accident in the townsite of Pinawa.

The Local Government District of Pinawa has a by-law which prohibits shooting within two miles of the townsite, and if these islands were include d within the local government district boundar ies, then the by-law would apply. So the purpose of this Act is to remove from the Rural Municipality of Lac du Bonnet the land descri ption of these islands which is, namely, all those portions of

Section 35 and 36 in Township 13 and Range 12 lying north of the Winnipeg River, and (

b) all of Sections 1 and 2 and all of those portions of

Section 3, 11 and 12 lying to the south of the north banks of the Winnipeg River and the Pinawa channel, all in Township 14 and Range 12. This was the original intent. I recommend it to the House and ask for it to go to committee. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, I note that the Bill provides that it be retroactive to the lst of January and I wonder what are the reasons for that. Is there any danger that in the course of that three months we would by passing the Act, making law here that would affect any one in any undue manner. Have there been any claims arisi ng during that time?

It there any possi bility of any liability arising on the part of certain individuals who might not other wise be covered, but by our action here would suddenly find themselves in that category ? My second point would be that in that particular area of the R. M. of r_.ac du Bonnet there have been a number of cottage owners who feel that they are not being treated fairly in view of the fact that they have to pay municipal taxes and yet in their view recei ve very little in the way of municipal services. This has been discussed here in the House previously.

Last year I br ought the matter to the attention of the Minister. Has she conducted any neg otiations with the R. M. of Lac du Bonnet ? Is there any possi ble solution for these people ? Could some of these areas, for example, be removed from the R. M. if they are of no part icular concern to the R. M. - I don 't know whether they are or not - but is there a means here of getting some agreeable settlement between the people who have summer res idences only in that vicinity and the R. M. itse lf ? Has the Minister been conducting any negotiations in this regard?

I thought when I first saw the Bill that possibly some negotiations had been arrived at, and that by mutual agreement areas may have been taken out and transferred back either to L. G. D. or to the Local Government District of Pinawa. Maybe the Minister could in closing the debate give us some-indications whether she has taken any action on this subject. MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, my remarks will be very brief. I'm concerned -- are the people living within the confines of these areas, are they in favour of the proposal that is being brought forward? Just recently we had

an Act br ought into the House here - I think it was under the Honourable the Minister of Utilities - where we had the principle that in case an extra burden fell on the taxpayer in a given area that they would have a right to indicate and to vote on certain measures. Does that apply in this case ? MRS. FORBE S: In answering the last speaker first, the Honourable Member_ from Rhineland, this agreement is an agreement between the Province of Manitoba and the Atomic Energy of Canada, and the inclusion of these islands was the intent in the first place.

It was left out of the agreement, -- it was inadvertently left out and as a result this problem has arisen. We understand that there is no tr ouble between anyone concerned here, so I do not think that we need to worry about that portion of it because it was the oriJinal intent here. In answer to the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition, there are no cases pending to my knowledge but I will check that out for you for a certainty. To my knowledge there are none.

In reference to your other question re cottages, this bill of course does not in any way take them into cons ideration, but I will be replying to your question on them at another time, but we did not consider them in the context of this bill. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . LYON: Mr. Speaker, I wonde r if you' d be good enough now to call the Committee of Supply. MR. EVANS: I beg to move, se conded by the Honourable the Attorney -General, that Mr. gpeaker do now leave the Chair and the House res olve itself into a Committee to cORSider

March 25, 1968 (MR. EVANS cont' d. ) .••.. of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, and the Res olution standing in my name. 475 MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Arthur in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR . EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, I record the fact that the orig inal message dealing with the esti mates has covered the whole sum of fae estim ates, and since this is only a part of them, then I record the fact that the message from His Honour has already been recei ved by the Committee. This is the usual inte rim supply, Mr. Chairman, to provide the government with enough money to carry on until the estimates have been completed and the supply bill passed and given Royal Assent. The fraction this year is two-tenths , although usually it has been one-tenth.

The reason for this is that it is much later in the year than usual and it was my judgement it would be prudent to ask for two-tenths rather than one-tenth on this occasion. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I do n't intend to object to moving on the two-tenths. I think under the cir cumstances it' s quite reasonable. I want to make it very clear, however, that in accepting $75, 400, OOO - odd as being two-tent hs, that doesn't neces sarily mean that I commit myself or my Party to accepting the eight-tenths to provide the total. On that one proviso, I am prepared to accept the proposi tion as it is. MR. FROESE : Mr.

Chairman, I was going to make the same qualification, so I think he's alread y spoken on my behalf. MR. CHAIRMAN: The resolution before the Committee: Resolved that a sum not exceeding $75, 426, 507, being two-tenths of the amount of the several items to be voted for departments as set forth in the main estimate s for the fis cal year ending the 31st day of March, 1969 , laid before the House at the present sessi on of the Legi slature, be granted to Her Majesty on the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March 1969. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, I regret that I spoke before you had the opportunity to read the res olution. I wonder if the House would now accept the situation and allow it to be recorded that the resolution was read and debate ensued. And now perhaps, Mr. Chairman, you'll be putting the question. MR. FROESE : Mr. Chairman, before you do put the question, we'r e not quite at the year's end as we haven't reached March 31st yet, but could the Minister give some indica tion as to what the situation is at the present time. Will we have a surplus or what is the situation ? Do we require the full amount asked for for the time being ?

If we have a large surplus, well then we would probably not need this full amount. MR . EVANS: I'll be reporting on the outcome of the present year's operations at the time of my budget address. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution be adopted? -- Agreed. Department No. XIl, Public Utilitie s. We were on Resolution 86, l(a). MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, we're still on the Minist er's Salary, is that correct? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. MR. MOLGAT: I noticed some time ago, Mr. Chairman, there was a press release by the Manitoba Hydro.

I didn 't see a written release, I merely heard this on the air regard ing extensions to the Brandon Steam Plant. I wonder if the Minister could indicate to us what is the plan there exactly. Does this tie in with any fur ther expansion later or is this just a temporary measure. What exactly is the inte ntion of Hydro ? MR. EDWARD I. DOW (T urtle Mountain) : Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask t_ne Minister in regards to some of the construction in the construction field of the Manitoba Hydro.

As you recall last year there was some discuss ion in regard to a contract to ATCO to which explanations were given at the committee stage and which I might say pers onally I wasn't very well satisfie d with. But just recently there's been another contract let to the same firm, ATCO, for some $856, OOO, and the information that I have, Sir, is that the plans and spec ifica tions, and particularly the plans, were drawn by ATCO and submitte d for tender in Manitoba.

My information is that many firms backed away from tendering on this because of the fact that they thought it was pretty well set up, that the firm that drew the plans would get the contract. I wonder if the Minister would enlighten us, in view of thi s fact, is there

476 March 25, 1968 (MR. DOW cont' d. ) .•... any truth to the fact that the plans were drawn by an Alberta firm, not using their own engineering staff, and how many people tendered on this particular con tract. MR. ROBERT STEEN (St. Matthews): Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to at this stage of the proceedings make a few general remarks regarding the Highway Safety program of the Province of Manitoba. First, I'd like to compliment the offici als of the department and in particular the Director of Highway Safety, Mr.

Peter Dygala, for the extremely able job they are doing in the driver training program and driver education facilities that are being est ablished throughout our province. This progress that they have made has been slow and steady and there's much more to do, but I think that all the members of the Legislature should have the benefit of seeing, not only the films but the actual program that they have for the driver education of our young people, similar to what I understand members of the previous Legislature had the opportunity of seeing.

This present House has about one-third of its members who have not had the privilege of seeing that driver education program the way it was displayed to the members of the House several years ago, and it would be an interesting adventure as well as a very educational experience for all concerned if they could have the opportunity of seeing this program and what the Department of Public Utilities and the High way Safety Division are attempting to do in our province. Mr. Chairman, I would also like to make reference to the breathalizer again.

I know I referred to this matter in the Throne Speech debate, but I think this is a very important matter that this House should be considering, either the introduction of amendments of our HighwayTraffic Act similar to what the Province of Saskatchewan did a few years back or the encouragement of the Federal Government to go ahead with the amendment to the Crim inal Code so that we might have compulsory breathalizer tests available.

But I would also stress too that the amendment to the Criminal Code, as it is currently proposed, is a dan gerous two-edged sword, because the 100 millimeters of alcohol for every 100 meters of blood or the same as . 10 rule is far too high and that we should be pressing for a reduction in this to the • 08 level, and I would hope that the Minister of Public Utilities might have words of wisdom and guidance for us later on when he replies to some of the questions that have been asked in committee as to what the intentions of the government are in this respect. Digressing from highway safety for a moment, Mr.

Chairman, I listened with a great deal of interest to the remarks of the Honourable Member from Burrows and the Honourable Member from Selkirk the other day regarding the Motion Picture Censor Board of this pro vince and the necessity for continuing in existence this board. We all know that as the member for Selkirk saw fit to point out, that we as a province have no control whatsoever what is shown on the television networks that so many of the residents of our province see; our control extends only so far as the motion picture houses are concerned.

And now the Censor Board issues only classifications of the various movies that come through its hands and I do not believe that they have seen fit to censor or refuse the showing of a particular film in our province for better than a year.

I think the government might very well take a good look at the necessity for continuing this board whether or not it's necessary, whether or not it's advisable, because as members saw fit to point out during the debates last year with respect to the amendments to the Liquor Act, it is impossible for us to legislate morals ; and as one of the members saw fit to men tion the other day about the return of the responsibility to parents at selecting or educating their children with regard to moral conduct and not leaving it to government bodies. With those few remarks, Mr. Chairman, I thank you. MR. JOHN P.

TANCHAK (Emerson) : Mr. Chairman, there is one matter of concern to many farmers in the Province of Manitoba in connection with Hydro. We all know that when the farmers first made application for Hydro several years ago they were required to pay a $65. 00 deposit before the Hydro would provide power for them. Of course this deposit was refundable after they had complied with certain regulations and increase in appliances and so on, and in turn the Manitoba Hydro contracted to provide power to every farmer, that is by installing a pole in the farm er's yard with a transformer on that pole.

Hydro kept their promise, but later on the Hydro encouraged the farmers to use more power. Hydro is yours; use it. So the farmers complied; they used more power; and subsequently they found out that the transformer on that pole, the original transformer, wasn't suff iciently large enough to take care of this increased consumption of power. When they asked Hydro people

March 25, 1968 477 (MR. TANCHAK cont'd. ) ..... to install a heavier one, they were told that they will have to pay more money for a larger transformer. Now it was the Hydro people who encouraged them to use more power and it seems to me that all the farmers -- that there's inconsistency here , because if the customer does increase consumption, then he's being penalized by paying more money for a larger trans former on the pole.

I think that Hydro should be happy that the farmer does use more power because the revenue is increased, and in a number of years by using more power the revenue to the Hydro will increase. In my opinion, I think that this warrants a change in policy. MR. CAMPBELL : Mr. Chairman, I have one matter that I would like to check with the Minister. Did you pass 86? MR . CHAffiMAN: No, we 're still on 86 (b) . MR. VIELF AURE : Mr.

Chairman, I hav� one point that I wanted to bring about and it's in relation to one of the towns in my constituency, and more precisely the town of Landmark, which in my opinion is being penalized from the situation that exists there because of the fact that some years ago - that's before the telephone system went into that area - these people had their own telephone co-op amongst the farmers, and about some seven years ago when they were bought by the Manitoba Telephone System, the COO at that time - that is the Central Dialing Office - was out in the ri.:ral areas and the people in the town suggested strongly to the Telephone System that the COO should be moved into the town itself.

Now I do not want to lay special blame to the telephone people at that time. I would call it an error of judgment, even though it was the strong feeling within the area that the COO should be moved into the town itself because it was already showing a fairly rapid growth and it certainly has grown much more rapidly than was ever expected by most observers I virould say. However, this has put the town people into the situation that in order to get a private line, a business line, they have to pay the sum of $500. 00 for a private line.

Now these people have tried everything to convince the Telephone System to move their COO within the town limits. However, they haven't been able so far and they have tried everything. Even some of the business people there have tried to buy a complete party line. This they couldn't get. They also would like to see the name changed. This, pers onally, I cm 't see why not. The name is listed as "Greenland" which is the former, the first co-op telephone system that existed there.

Now the town is well known for its trading as Landmark and it makes it very difficult for anybody outside fo locate Landmark in the Telephone System. Now, in my opinion, it is, I would say, urgent that the office be moved within the town. Now I know that there are many other towns in the province that do not have private lines.

However, the fact that these people had their own telephone system way before this was taken over and that they were the ones that suggested that the COO be installed in the town makes it realistic that they should get their private line because it is certainly not fair that people who had telephones before any other town in any other area I would say would have to pay right now the sum of $500. 00 in order to get a private line. Furthermore it even complicates within the area itself because the customers within the area have to go through two sets of private lines in order to get to the business in the town.

Now this is all happening just because of the fact that the central dialing office is some 4 miles out of the town in the middle of a farming district where the business certainly is not and if you check on the map you will find there are some very important, progressive businesses in the town of Landmark which, in my opinion, are being discriminated against by the fact that they just cannot have a private line except for a fee of $500. 00.

This has been brought to my attention over the years and I never realized until this year how serious these people were being affected and I came about with them; I made representation to the Minister and again today I am pleading for these people that the Minister give them a - how would I say -- collaborating year and make sure that a just treatment is given to them. In my opinion there is no reason why they should not be given the COO within the town limits.

My honourable friend, the Minister of Industry and Commerce, is trying hard to bring in dustry into this province and on the other hand here we are imposing a penalty to people who are really progre ssive, who are creating a lot of employment in the business -- in the pro vince I should say -- by the business ventures that exist in that town. I will just end by pleading with the Minister to really see to it that this is done in the very near future because actually these people, besides paying $50 0. 00 for a private line, have to pay a monthly penalty besides the $500. 00.

So with these few words I hope I've con vinced the Minister that there is indeed a need for a change in that area.

478 March 25, 1968 MR . McLE AN : Mr . Chairman, I would wish first to thank all of the honourable members of the Committee for the excellent points they have brought to our attention and the counsel and advice and perhaps the criticisms that they have expressed to us . I would like to just as briefly as I can deal with a number of the points which I as sume were placed in order that I might give some indication of - perhaps some answer or some information that would be helpful.

Generally speaking, in connection with Manitoba Hydro and with the Manitoba Telephone System, while I will be able to discuss certa in matters that have been brought to our attention, because of the fact that these are Crown corporations that are independently managed I know that the members will not consider it amiss if I just point out that they will be -- and hopefully so -- that they will raise any points that we are unable to deal with here when the Utilities are before the Committee and when the experts will be able to prese nt the detailed informa tion that will help .

And I would just remind the members of the fact that the Committee meets tomorrow morning at 10: 00 o'c lock and that all members of the Legislature are entitled to be there even though not members of the particular committee in question and to ask questions even though they may not vote if there is a vote in the committee . I will deal with matters that have been brought up in the order in which they have come and, as I say, try to indicate some information . The Honourable the Member for Carillon raised of course the problem of the number of subs cribers on party lines and my strong suspicion, Mr .

Chairman, is that as long as there will be Ministers of Public Utilities, they 'll be asked this question because this is a very serious one although I think that the telephone system can point to substantial improvement and further improvements as the Manitoba Telephone System facilities are being upgraded and improved. Indeed even for those of us, and I am still on a party line myself, even for those of us who are on party lines the new equipment I'm sure reduces the problems in that regard very substantially .

I was interested in the family rule that the Honourable Member for Carillon has where they are limited from three to five minutes and I was rather envious of him because I wish I could get that rule working in my own family . He raised the point about reflectorized licence plates and I can say that this matter is being very carefully considered by the Department of Utilities, the Motor Vehicle Branch, as to whether or not it would be advisable when the next licence plates come out they should be reflectorized .

I simply say that we approach it with a kindly approach although we have been much interested in a very recent announcement by the Minister of Transport in Ontario in which he announced that after a rather detailed study that they were not going to adopt reflectorized licence plates in Ontario and the basis of their decision in that connection has been that they have come to the conclusion that the number of accidents which occur beca use of non-ref lectorized plates -- or put it the other way around - because of the number of accid ents that could be prevented by the use of reflectorized plates would be minimal and would not justify the extra expense involved in that type of plate .

Now, I' m not citing that on any basis that that means what the decision is going to be here but that has been a rather interesting point of view that has been arrived at by the Ontario department as a result of their study .

The Honourable Member for Carillon also raised the matter concerning school buses and the confusion with regard to the rules and that matter is the primary responsibility of the Department of Education although they work very closely with the people in the Motor Vehicle Branch and I would as sure him that we have noted what he has said and will be glad to take the matter under consideration and ensure that the -- whatever we can do to ensure uniformity certainly will be done because we have no intention of permitting perhaps varia tions or confusion that would result from it .

With regard to the booklet on safety by the Highway Safety Council, I' m glad to have that suggestion and we'll certainly be very happy to consider what has been recommended . I notice that he refers to the fact that most vehicle accidents occur during the first four years of driving and this of course is reflected in such matters as insurance rates for young drivers because now most persons who drive begin their driving at an early age and we do know that there is a higher incidence of motor vehicle accidents during that time.

I was interested that the Honourable Member for Carillon encouraged the Censo r Board although other members of the Committee were not that enthusiastic . The Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Party referred to the gas utility, and

) March 25, 1968 479 (MR . McLE AN cont 'd) ... I asked a question concerning a decis ion by the Public Utilities Bo ard with regard to the Greater Winnipeg Gas Company and I can inform him that the decision of the board will be coming very shortly . The rate hearings have been concluded and it is expected that their decisi on will be made very soon .

He also raised the question of bringing into effect the thermal plants and particularly the addition at Bra ndon-and that was referred to by the Honourable the Leader of the Oppos ition - the increase in the Brandon thermal plant when at the same time we are anticipating the Nelso n River power .

The thermal plants, generally speaking, as I understand the situation, a sort of program has been worked out in great detail and the hydro electric power -- the electric power rather that will be obtained from the thermal plants and from the expanded thermal plants will be necessa ry to keep us in good order until the Nelso n River power is available . This is a matter of judgment with the Hydro Bo ard and in their opinion is the businesslike way in which to approach it .

Reference was also made by the Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Pa rty to certain contracts in connection with the Nel son River going to an industry in Quebec, a con tractor in Quebec , and I'm sure that is a matter of regret to those of us who would like to see Manitoba industry obtain contracts of this nature although it must always be balanced by our concern about the costs of the equipment concerned. I think however, that this might be a very suitable matter to bring up at the Committee and undoubtedly there will be other details that can be provided by the Manitoba Hydro.

I can report positively on one point to him that the reports of the utilities, the Manitoba Hydro and Manitoba Telephone System were printed in Manitoba. The Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Part y asked a question concerning driver testing, the number of complaints, that is complaints regarding the approach of the tester s. I can say only that I think only one or two complaints have been brought to my per sonal attention and we have been constantly of course urging upon the driver testing officers the importance of courtesy and good public relations with the people they deal with.

I am of course told from the other side and it's explained to me that driver testing is not only an exact ing job but it's very nerve wracking, if that 's a correct legal expression, and that often times a person who is engaged in this type of work day in and day out becomes perhaps a little bit on edge and often times not as friendly as we might otherwise hope that he would be . However, there is an attempt to do as much as we can and we keep emphasizing that point . He asked for booklets on the rules of the road.

I' m under the impress ion that those booklets are pretty readily available and can be picked up in offices where licences are sold and if that 's not altogether the case we 've noted the point and we'll be seeing that they are because -- maybe it's only because of my own driving record, Mr. Chairman, but I seem to have no difficulty in getting copies of that book and maybe they only give it to certa in people . He spoke of the conglomeration of signs and I join him on that .

I never cease to be amazed at the number of signs there are along our highways and not only the number of signs , but he didn't mention the number of lights and there are lots of times when you can't really tell whether that light that 's blinking on and off is a street signal or what it is . There' s one particular sign, Mr. Chairman, I might say that when I drive to work at night it has a red light and in the mirror of the car I always think it's a police vehicle that 's following me flash ing his red light and that 's very disturbing . I don't know what the answer is but it 's a difficult matter.

The Honourable the Member for Rhineland referred again to this matter of many people in southern Manitoba being on party lines and as I have said this is a difficult problem. If it's any conso lation of course I may tell member s of the Committee that there are some people in other areas of the province -- I know of two in particular -- where because of the physical loca tion that we 're unable to provide them with any telephone service at all . So I suppose these things have to be kept in some sort of perspective.

I'm convinced that the telephone system is doing its best in this regard, not as quickly naturally as we would like but I think making rea sonable progre ss. He spoke of the expropriation of land and I think in many instance s it's rather by ease ment rather than the actual expropriation of land, and the transmission line, and his sugges tion that in as many cases as possible these lines should go along road allowance s. Well I would agree with him although we have to remember that at the very great cost of the actual construction of lines that a mile of transmission line represents a substantial sum of money

480 March 25 , 196 8 (MR . Mc LEAN cont 'd) ... and that if, by going directly acro ss a parcel of land even a small distance can be saved, it 's very important in terms of overall costs . I have this impres sion: that the Manitoba Hydro does everything pos sible to meet the le gitimate problems of farmers and while not always able to do it exactly as they would wish does their very best to avoid as many difficultie s as pos sible .

The Honourable the Member for Assi niboia referred to the lack of, or the fact that he said there was not sufficient com munication in certain areas of the provinc e; he referred to the north, Moose Lake, Oxford Lake and Go d's Lake . That emphasizes the point I was making just a moment ago that of course there are areas of the province where it isn't a question of them being too many on a party line , they don't have the party line to start with and this, as I say, is the problem of balancing these problems .

The Honourable Member for As siniboia also referred to He adingley -- and he and I have had some corre spondence and this matter is under consid eration at the present time -- The extension of what I believe the telephone people know as free dialing . That is increasing the size of free dialing ranks along with the que stion of the number of people on party lines as one of the serious problems that the Telephone System has to deal with and there is an improve ment going on although no matter where the line is drawn I'm certain there 's always somebody on the other side who would like to be in a certain area.

But this is a matter which is Under const ant review and parti cularly of course the one about which he speaks - Headingley is under review . The Honourable Member for Assi niboia also referred to hydro for trailer home s and this matter was referred to on another occasion and I have to confe ss, Mr . Chairman , for the life of me I don't understand the problem because it would seem to me a matter of very little con cern if I had a trailer home whether I pay my hydro to the owner of the trailer park or whether I pay it to the hydro - it 's the same thing.

And as a matter of fact, the owner of the trailer park has to deal with the trailer owner with regard to water and sewer where that is available and I just say to the honourable member that I' m quite unable to understand any problem in this connection . If someone was bei ng denied electric current or if there was any problem about getting it I would begin to understand it but he may have some light to throw on that for my benefit . He asked if we were being tough enough on our driver suspensio ns . That depends on a point of view , Mr. Chairman .

If you 're the Minister of Public Utilities getting the telephone calls from people who've had their license suspended I would be inclined to say, and especi ally after yesterday, I would be inclined to say we must be awfully tough . Actually , I think the approach on driver suspensions has been since we last met, very substantially toughened up and I believe that every effort is being made to insure that those who ought not to be on the highway are not there and do not have driving privilege s. It is of cou rse , a difficult matter.

It's a matter of judgment in most case s but I think it would be correct to say that in the cour se of the past twelve months that the policy has been cons iderably strengthened and stiffened in that field . He referred to vehicle testing and thought the cost was not a factor . I have always tried to explain that while the actual operating cost of vehicle inspecti on as it was envisaged when the Highway Traffic Act was introduced - the present Highway Traffic Act was introduced - that the operating costs would be paid by the users of the service - that is the motoring public .

There was a substantial matter with re gard to the capital costs of providing the facilit ies re quired and we have under consid eration alternative plans for which we have not come to a firm conclusion at the moment . I think it would be fair to say that we recog nize the importance of motor vehicle te sting although I would warn members of the Co=ittee that it must not be over emphasi zed .

The Honourable the Member for Carillon when he was speaking said that 2 percent of acci dents - he was referring to accidents - were due to faulty mechanism and I' m not able to say whether that's the exact - I' m as suming that he has studied the matter .

It has been very carefully studied in some of the America n states and the conclusion to which they have come has been that compulsory motor vehicle inspection doe s not re sult in a subs tantial reduction in motor vehicle accidents and there is serious question - I' m now speaking about the studie s carried out in the United States by some authoritie s - que stion as to whether it is actually shall we say a paying matter from a financial point of view . And I was interested last November - November 14th I think if my - either the 13th or 14th when Dr . Shulman, who 's

March 25, 196 8 481 (MR . McLEAN cont'd) ... quite a noted person in Ontario was here discus sing this matter of highway safety and he made the same point , that those who expected that compulsory motor vehicle inspection would reduce the number of motor vehicle accidents would be sadly disap pointed beca use in actual practice it didn 't re sult that way.

Now these are the statements of others who have studied the matter and I only mention them so as that there be no sort of inflated opinion of the value of motor vehicle testing even though I would anticipate that we will come to a system of some sort in the Province of Manitoba. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr . Chairman . Mi ght I at that point ask the Honourable Minister a que stion ? Would the Honourable Minister tell us what Dr . Shulman said was the real big factor ? MR. McLEAN: Well, Dr.

Shulman was primarily intere sted in - yes the real factor or at least the major factor that he was pres enting was that with respect to the un wise use of alcohol in relation to driving and of course there is no argument about that. We don 't need to spend any time arguing that point, that is self evident I think to all who have paid any attention to it at all. MR . PHILIP PE TURSSON (Wellington) : Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I might ask a question ?

There have been reports from time to time in the newspapers about various car companies calling back - not just two or three or a half a dozen but several thousand cars because of some defect in the car itself, whether it 's brakes or motor or some other thing. These themselves if allowed to go would or could be the cause of car failures which could also cause accident s.

If they detect these things and call them back, if they're bad enough to call back there may be other defects not quite as noticeable and perhaps ,not in as great a number that are not caught or are not corrected by calling back - could they not concei vably create accidents on the highway? MR . McLEAN: Oh ye s, yes there 's no que stion about that and I' m sure that there are, aside altogether from those that are called back by the manufacturer, that there are many defects.

The point I think if I can explain it adequately is that for whatever reason the studi es indicate that the compulsory testing of motor vehi cles doe s not -- and I'm unable to give the reason, I' m only giving results as I under stand it -- does not bring about a subst antial reduc tion in the number of motor vehicle acciden ts . Now I can only give that information; I' m not attempting to just ify it nor can I explain it . MR. PE TURSSON: Mr .

Chairman, I wondered whether in the light of what we know according to reports that we have receiv ed, is there any way in which the public can be pro tected against these defects that the car companies themselves recognize and call cars back for repair , would there be any kind of spot checking that could be done as the cars come in off the assembly line or some manner in which the public could be protected, because the public should definitely be protected when these defects are not nece ss arily known but pos sible in the car . MR . McLEAN: Mr .

Chairman, of course our Hi ghway Traffic Act contemplates that only vehicles which meet the required specifications are on the highway and we have a pro- �.. vision, this is aside altogether from the compulsory inspection of vehicles, which requi re s vehicle s to meet certain specifications and the motor dealer to give a certi ficate as to their road worthiness when selling the vehicle , so that we assume - I think we have to assume that vehicles that are sold - I'm speaking now of Manitoba - that they meet the required specifica tions of our Highway Traffic Act; and these requirements are those requirements that are desig ned to ensure their safety as vehicles that are being drive n.

The whole que stion of the - shall we say the standard of manufacture is a good one and I'm unable to give any opinion as to how that matter could or should be handled - which pre sumably would have to be on a, rather on a national basis to be effective .

The Honourable Member of As siniboia asked if there was a handbook with regard to motorcycles and I can inform him that a motorcyclist handbook was prepared by the Motor Vehicle Br anch and - as a matter of fact it was the first one in Canada - and has been distri buted by the Motor Vehicle Br anch since August, 1967; and that we also have one res pecting bicycle s. The Honourable the Member for Burrows raised the question of the Censor Board and I would perhaps be inclined to take the same posi tion as I took a year ago.

I know all the arguments about the ineffectivene ss of censors hip of movie s; on the other hand I would say,

481 March 25, 1968 (MR . McLEAN cont'd) ... and referring only to this House, that at least one member expressed himself as being in favour of the Censor Board or encouraging the Censor Board and I think that the principle purp ose of the Censor Board is that of clas sifying films - if it performs a usef ul service that that is it . This whole que stion is difficult .

This afternoon earlier , the Honourable the Member for Portage la Prairie got up with a newspaper and said was the Attorney-General going to prosec ute the people who published it and I judge from what he said is not in favour of what appeared in that particular paper and probably rightly so and I heard nobody objecti ng to the question that he asked. This is a per sonal matter and I would see no reason for myself either to undertake any jus tification of the Censor Board.

I agree with him of course that the re sponsibility is that of the parents but I would ask him how the parents would know whether or not their children should attend a par ticular picture unless they had some guide as to its contents because unle ss the parent went himself to see it, he wouldn't know. Now as matters now stand, I, as a parent can tell wheth er a particular picture has been classi fied at least by the Censor Board as falling within a certain category, then if I have any parental influence I might use it accordingly.

If I didn 't know that it had been classi fied I might have my suspicions but I wouldn 't know unle ss I actual ly saw it myself. This is a very emotional, difficult iss ue and lots of the people if I may say so who get up and denounce censor ship would of course be the first ones to get up and denounce a particular picture or a particular book or a particular newspaper if it offended their partic ular sense of propriety .

So we can have it whatever way we like and as far as I' m aware I think that we can continue with our prese nt arrangements and it' & not doing any harm �d hope fully it may do a little bit of good . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Inkster . MR. SIDNEY GREEN (Inkster) : Mr . Chairman, on the last point, there appears to be a fundamental difference between suggesting that somebody who doesn't like what he sees written someplace or he sees portrayed on a screen denounc ing that and I think that I for one would defend the right of anybody to denounce it .

I defend the Honourable Member for Portage's right to denounc e what he saw in the Uniter . I read the same

article and I didn 't like it . I reser ve the right to say I didn 't like it and I think that there is something fundamentally differ ent between that right and reserv ing the right for someone to say what I shall or shall not read.

And that's apparently what the Honourable Member for Portage wants and if my honourable friend the Minister said that he takes it that this House acqui es ced in the suggestion that's been made by the Honourable Member for Portage that someoody be prosec uted because what they've written i:u a newspaper , that he took the general acquiescence or that is the lack of objection to my honourable friend from Portage's ques tion to be some sort of approval of the que stion, I stand now for myself for any right, saytta� I don't agree that somebody should be prosec uted for what they've written in the newspaper .

If 1 agreed with that, Mr . Chairman, I would ask them to prosec ute some of our major dailies for some of the stuff that they write - not particularly obscene from the context that the Attorney-General would look at what is obscene, but for what is obscene in its resu lts, far more obscene than what was written in the Uniter. So I think that there is a fundamental difference and I think that this difference for the ... .. moment has escaped the Honourable Minister .

I think that the basic problem with censor boards is not that somehow that there is a suggestion that someone will screen what will even tually go to the public , and that they can do it , that it 's pos sible for them to do it . My sugges tion Mr. Chairman, is that it's impossi ble for someone to play this type of God, as to tell me what is right for me to read; what is right for me to see - because it 's not only for children that people censor, it 's for adults - we have people who pre sume to say that Syd Green the Member for Inkster or any other member of this House can only read or see certain things .

And when we say that somebody can play God, which is what we are saying, let 's look at who plays God . I have an article, and I' m sorry , Mr. Chairman, that I can't give you the date of it but it was front page Winnipeg Free Press concerning the film "Warrendale". "The prize winningdoccm entary film Warrendale hailed by critics here and abroad was banned by the Manitoba Boa�d of Censors Wednesd ay. H. B. Scott, one of the four members of the Board said in a telephone interview Thur sday that the film was banned because of the foul language amongst other things". H. B. Scott objected to the foul language.

He thought that this would be too sen sitive for my ears because he 's censoring what I' m going to see and that's what I regard as important to hear . Documentary ? Is that what you call it ? This is a man who

·Ma rch 25, 19tits 483 (MR . GREEN cont'd) ... presumes to tell the public in Manitoba what they can see and what they can hear . Documentary - is that what you call it ? I thought it was meant for entertain ment. Isn't that what films are all about ? We wouldn 't allow language like that in any film in our provinc e, Mr . Scott said. I wonder if Mr. Scott can go around the province and stop the type of language which he says that he won't allow in a film. I wonder if Mr .

Scott - and this is the man who plays God and tells me what I can see and what I can read - if a person who says that isn't that what films are all about, for entertainment, and a documentary - is that what you call it, a man who is able to make those statements concerning a serious film, is that the kind of problem that inevitably results when you say that three people are going to be able to censor films. Because, Mr .

Chairman, if you could do it, if it was pos sible for us in this Legislature, or for even the Cabinet who are presumed I suppose to have greater wis dom than the rest of us , is it presumed that they could pick three people in the world .•. MR . CAMPB ELL : You're joking now. MR . GREEN: Well I certainly am . I notice the astutene ss of the Honourable Member for Lakeside . He 's the only one who regarded it as being funny. The front bench didn 't regard it as funny at all.

But is it pre sumed that the government can choose three people who are able to tell the Member for Lake side , the Member for Inkster and even the govern ment themselves what they can read or think. You may get three better people this day; you may get three better people next year; but isn't it inevitable that we will wind up with someone saying: Documentary - is that what you call it ? I thought it was meant for entertainment. And here 's an interesting statement. "If you ever printed that in the Free Pre ss you would go to jail" -- something that was in this film. Well as I said, Mr .

Speaker , I' ve read things in the Free Press that have made me angrier and that have offended me more than what ap pears in this particular film, but I don 't presume from that to tell the Free Press what to print or what not to print . I pre sume for myself the right to criticize just as I presume for the right of these people who are producing and making the films the right to say what they think - and it's fundamentally different from objecting to what the film says as to objecting to what the Censor Board says that I can see and I can't see . MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr .

Chairman, I just wish to ask the honour able member a question . Do I interpret his comments correctly or his

interpretation of the Act when he says that this board is merely to act as a clas sification board of films ? I believe that was the term that he used; and if that is so then it appears that he is reading an

interpretation into the Act quite different from that which the Act conveys to the average reader . MR . McLEAN: Mr . Chairman, the Honourable the Member for Burrows can read any

interpretation into my remarks that he likes. What I said was that the principal pur pose or the principal function of the Censor Board is the classi fication of films and of course it is true that there may be occasions when they reject a film altogether . I don't believe that hap pens too often but that might possi bly be the case . --(I nterjec tion) -- That's right . The re's no question about that. I' m not denying that. I' m merely talking about the operation of the Censor Board which is what the Honourable Member for Burrows introduced the other day .

All I' m saying is that I have no suggestions and I in fact don't believe that there would be any changes that would meet with the approval of this House with regard to the Censor Board. As far as the Member for Inkster is concerned of course he builds up a pretty good case on a very weak - by saying who is God.

That of course is intended I am sure to frighten us all and naturally we say, "Oh no, no, we wouldn 't want anything like that." He misses the point of course and there are all kinds of things which , if I might suggest it , that he advocates and would support where I might very well say to him, ''You want somebody to act as God." So you can take it whatever way you like and all I' m suggesting is that really we don't make much progre ss when we discuss this rather emotional is sue of censor ship and I' m just simply saying that I believe the Censor ship Board in Manitoba does a reasonable job, that they are of course subject to human error, as indeed all of us are , but that they do a reasonable job for us and perhaps it's a difficult job in these times when our moral standards and our standards of conduct are changing as rapidly as they are .

Coming to the Honourable the Member for Selkirk. He raised the que stion about hydro rates in Selkirk as compared to Brandon and I would like to suggest I am quite frankly unable to answer that que stion except that my suspicion is that it goes back to some of the original agreements, at least the power plants that were purchased by the Manitoba Hydro over the years and rates that may have been in force at the time of the acquisition of such plant . But

484 March 25, 1968 (MR. McLEAN cont'd) ... my thought would be that that could very well be a point that might be ventilated in the committee beca use I'm not in a position to explain it. The Honourable Mem ber for Selkirk also asked about the service between Selkirk and Winnipeg and how soon we might cut down on the number of party line users in St . Andrews. I' ve really dealt with that in a general sort of way and I would expect that perhaps that also might be- discussed at some length in the committee. What about the levels of Lake Winnipeg ?

The honourable member will be aware of the fact that the Water Bo ard -- I've just forgotten the name -- has been assi gned the specific responsibility of dealing with this and my understanding is that their public hearings will soon be opening, but they will be recommending water levels for Lake Winnipeg which will take into acco unt, I'm sure , the inte rests of those who are directly concerned. The Honourable the Leader of the Oppos ition asked about the extensions to the Brandon steam plant and does it tie in with further extension.

I am not aware that there are any furth er extensions intended but the pre sent expansion at the Bra ndon steam plant is designed to ensure an adequate supply of power pending the commissioning of power from the Nelso n River .

The Honourable the Member for Turtle Mountain asked about a contract for the purchase of trailer homes at the construction site at Gillam and while I have not any direct information on it, from my recollections of that, it was gone into at some length before, is that the plans were not drawn up by Atco, they were drawn up by persons instructed to do so by the Manitoba Hydro and that there is no question that they were open, they were quite explicit and were open to all concerned for their tenders. The Honourable Member for St .

Matthews indicated that he thought the proposed provi sions in the Criminal Code regarding the breathalizer were that the limits were too high . Well that 's a fair matter of debate and perhaps we will be having something to say about that later in the Sess ion. I am aware that there are many people who feel that the limits as proposed in the amendment to the Criminal Code are too high, and I think that 's a legitimate point and might well be taken into ac count .

I' m not too clear from what the Honourable Member for Emerson said when he spoke about farmers having to pay more money for larger transformers and again this is a matter we might discuss . I suppose one might be inclined to ask the question: well how much more ? And perhaps the larger transformer enables them to get cheaper power . That is I mean cheap er power in the sense of getting their use down to a point where the lower rates apply . But here again perhaps we can have some useful discussi on about that in Committee .

The Honourable Member for LaVerendrye raised the question of the people in Landmark and suggested they were being penalized. I think perhaps for the record I ought to say some thing about this . He and I have been discussi ng this and I have met with the people concerned, but I think that for the record, Mr . Chairman, I ought to say that perhaps some of the facts ought also to be put on the record .

As I understand it, the telephone system in this particular area was originally owned and operated by a private or co-o perative telephone system; that they had their central office located at Greenland and that in the transa ction under which the Manitoba Telephone System acquired their system and undertook to provide telephone service that the telephone system was given the actual loca tion where the community dial office is now located which was the place where the central office had been previously locat ed.

So that if it was an error of judgment it was an error of judg ment on those people who originally established the system there. But I think it also ought to be recorded, Mr. Chairman, that that is at a community known as Greenland and it's a community just the same as Landmark.

The fact of the matter is that Landmark has evidently, since the establishment of this com munity dial office , has grown more rapidly than Greenland and so with the wisdom that comes from hindsight perhaps the community dial office ought to have been placed at Landmark. :t wasn't, but I think one could say that what was done was done with good intentions and without disturbing what had in effect been the previous arrangement .

And so I would have to suggest in the most kindly manner than I can that I do not think that the Manitoba Telephone System can be charged with an error of judgment nor do I think that they can be charged with impos ing a penalty on the people at Landmark. However, I think that there is probably help on the horizon and that with the exercise of goodwill and patience and with the expansion of Landmark that has evidently taken place and is taking place that it will be possible for the good people of Landmark to look forward to an improvement in the situation as far as they are concerned.

But I would have to enter a caveat

March 25 , 196 8 485 (MR . McLE AN cont'd) ... on any suggestion that what was done was done in anything but good will and to avoid -- I' m sure that if the Manitoba Telephone System when they took over that co-operative telephone system, if they had established their community dial office at any place other than where the previous co-operative had it that we would have been hearing about it in this House and there would have been a demand to know why the telephone system was changing what the people had become accustomed to in that community .

Events have moved beyond that and there is every likelihood that the service will be improved and the necessary changes made that will accommodate all concerned.But let us not look at it with the rather better wisdom that we have from hindsight but the action that was taken must be judged, I' m sure, in the light of the circumstances as they were at that time and that under the circum stances it was perhaps not an unreasonable action for them to have taken . If I might refer back just to a matter that the Honourable the Member for Wellington raised concerning the car companies calling back large number of cars .

I have received a message from above that may throw a bit of light on this which points out that many of the defects are latent defects which would not be detected in the course of a reasonably careful inspec tion which would be made through any inspection sys tem . In other words the point that I think that is being drawn to our attention is that these particular defects for which the manu facturer is calling back the car is not the kind of defect which would be normally detected in a motor vehicle inspection that can be given under any system that we presently contemplate .

And I must assume from that that these defects are found by the company after perhaps check ing again as the manufacturing process is going on. I thought perhaps that information might be of some assistance to the ..• MR. ALBERT VIEL FAURE, (La Verendrye) : Mr. Chairman, just one question please . Did I understand the Minister right to say that there was some change contemplated for Landmark? I don't intend to get into a long argument with the Honourable Minister and it wouldn't serve no purpose here .

I will say that I don't agree with all he said, however, if he assures me that there is some change coming, I'm agreeable. MR. McLEAN: No, Mr. Chairman, I enter quickly to say I did not say that. I said that with the growth of Landmark and in accordance with the policies of the Manitoba Telephone System I am certain that the people of Landmark may look forward to some improvement. Jl<ffi. NELSO N SHOEMAKER (Gladst one) : Mr.

Chairman, I thought I heard my honour able friend the Minister say that nobody was really opposed to this whole question of breath alizers, that so far as the principle of the breathalizer was concerned everybody seemed to be more or less in agreement and that so far as the technicalities centering around the per centage of alcohol in the blood that was a technical question and not one of principle and I believe in answer to my honourable friend the Member for Lakeside he said that he concurred in what Dr .

Shulman said , that the number one factor causing accidents and in particular fatal accidents was centered around the whole problem of alcohol. But I was waiting for him to tell the House what he intended to do about it . Is it the intention of the government to implement le gislation at this Session of the Le gislature to provide for compulsory breath alizer tes ts ? This is the thing I believe that the people of Manitoba are concerned about. Is it not a fact that B . C. , Alberta and Saskatchewan have all now introduced breathalizer legis lation. It 's on the statute books now.

I received a letter dated March 21 and that 's not long ago, in which this private citizen says traffic accidents, injury and death totals for 1967 in Manitoba were as follows: 18, 841 accidents, 8, 640 injuries to persons and 202 deaths in Manitoba, and he goes on to say that more than 50 percent were caused by drinking drivers. So assuming there were 50 percent, the 101 people mig ht have been living today if we had breathalizer legisla tion .

Well, this is what the Safety Council -- my honourable friend the Attorney-General is shaking his head in the negative and he like I, I suppose, likes to have a drink now and again -- but I think this whole question of breathalizer legislation has been looked at long enough, let's do something about it for a change . Another statement that was made by the former Registrar of Motor Vehicles in this province was that he could tell well in advance -- this was exactly what he said .•. MR. McLEAN: Mr.

Chairman, this statement the honourable member made on a pre vious occasion and I just want to have it on the record that I do not acknowledge, indeed I deny that that statement was made. MR. SHOEMAKER: Which statement is my honourable friend referring to ? MR . McLEAN: The one you are about to make .

486 March 25, 1968 MR . SHOEMA KER : The one I'm about to make! Well, my honourable friend is in the wrong business, if he can tell well in advance the statements that I' m going to make. I was going to quote the former Registrar, what the former Registrar of Motor Vehic les, his ability in respect to forecasting .

However, he's going to deny what I' m going to say in that regard, but I would like him to deny what has been said in Bri tain then in regard to the reduction in traffic accidents and deaths since they implemented breathalizers over there, and I hope that my honourable friend will be able to inform the House that it is the intention of this govern ment to implement breathalizer legis lation at this session of the Legislature . Now, Mr. Chairman, I thought too that my honourable friend was going to tell us about some new legislation that was forthcoming in respect to power toboggans.

I'm sure my hon ourable friend didn't know that I was going to talk about them. I see that he's engaged in a conference in depth with the Attorney -General . But my honourable friend, just a month ago, yesterday I believe, put out one of the propaganda sheets in respect to safety hints given for power toboggans, and he state s in the letter that I have before me that the use of power tobog gans are increasing quite rapidly; that is a fact. I saw in the paper the other day that the sales of power toboggans in Manitoba is now well over the 5, OOO mark.

But in the letter that my honourable friend sent out to the new spapers all over the place , lists a number of safety hints, and I can't hardly comprehend the content of this letter because he goes on to say what you have to do when you 're crossing the roads and all this . I thought it was illegal, and as I said at the last session and I'll repeat it again. Course, now the snow's gone well you don't see them around very much.

But they're going up and down the ditches and all over the place in greater numbers than they did last year , there's no doubt about that. --(Interjectio n) -- My honourable friend the Member for St . Boniface says: "They can't read, snow toboggans can't read" -- but that was a statement attributed to my honourable friend the Minister of Labour . Now on high school Driver Training Course, does the government offer the same course to all high schools in the Province of Manitoba that it announced two years ago ? I believe at that time the government paid half of the cost up to $20 . 00 per student for the cou rse .

I think it is a very very worthwhile type of program and I would be interested to have my honourable friend enlighten us on that subject . MR . LE ONARD A. BARKMAN (Carillon) : Mr . Chairman, I thank the Minister for his remarks that he made before . I don't know if it was intentional or if he forgot . I shall not try and bring up party lines too much of it at least at the time and pos sibly leave it for a year, but I do hope that the Minister is not staying at his su=er resi dence too often because I doubt if anybody will get through to him with complaints in case he is over there at his party line telephone .

I thought perhaps the Minister would bring up the subject that I discussed or tried to discuss the other day concerning a warning device of some sort . I think this is very import ant. I see that the board member of the telephones has also just entered the Chamb ers. Perhaps he has something to say on that, I don't know . But I feel that this matter of trying to find a device of some sort for the sake of saving human lives, leave alone the lives of live stock and poultry , leave alone the many thousands of dollars that are lost every year -- I think it 's cert ainly something that we must take serious.

And while I'm on my feet, I thought

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	28-2-19
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	28th 2nd hansardpdf 19.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	891d3ecf54dd641a1646596a5cad94c5d70031fe

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