Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 61 (29th Legislature, 5th Session)

29-5-61

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XX No. 61 8:00 p.m., Thursday, April 12th, 1973. Fifth Session, 29th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans - Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

April 12, 1973 THE LE GISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 8:00 o•clock, Thursday, April 12, 1973 SUP PLY - ATTORNEY - GENE RAL MR, CHAIRMAN: I would refer honourable members to page 7 of the Es timates. Resolution 17 (a) -- The Honourable Attorney-General. 1685 MR, MACKL ING: Mr.

Chairman, it's always a pleasure to --(Interje ction)-- My colleague says not for us - well, it•s always a pleasure for me, at least, to have an opportunity to say a few words in introduction to the Est imates of a very efficient and a very worthwhile departmen t in government. --(Interj.ection)-- I have a brief, that is true, I come prepared, Mr .

Chairman, to give you a few words about some of the good things that this department has been doing and I•m sure that my honourable friends opposite will enlighten me about some of the bad things, but I really don't think that we have been doing anything that's very bad at all, I think that everything has been good.

However, you know, the assessment is always biased, I suppose. --(Interje ction)-- I see, Well, let me assure you, Mr, Chairman, that I have every confidence in my staff; we have succeeded very well in the development of further pro grams, programs that were initiated in past sessions, and the administration of these various programs has been flushed out although the budget reflects still further increases in some areas and I•ll touch very lightly on those in my general remarks, and no doubt during the specific items, specific resolutions, members will want further detail and I will do my best to honour that undertaking, Mr, Chairman, the most significant changes in the budget of the Att0rney-General•s department this year reflects a very substantial increased apportionment of funds for our legal aid program.

In the previous year the budget had provided for a total of $850, OOO. This year the total budget budgetted for law reform, pardon me, legal aid in Manitoba is $1, 400,000, In addition, the other area of very substantial increase is in respect to law enforcement, and this involves, this is reflected in the fairly substantial increase in the budget provided there from an increase from $4, 544 , 100 to 5, 833, 300 - odd dollars, I would like to indicate, touch briefly on the work of some of the various segments of this department . First of all, although not showing any priority of affection, Mr .

Chairman, I would like to say a few words about our Law Reform Commis sion, As you know, our Law Reform Commission is probably unique in Canada inasmuch as it is not entirely composed of lawyers or members of the bench, It does have a number of lawyers on it; it 's chaired by Francis C. Muldoon; but it does have lay persons and that Law Reform Commission has been very active in advancing reports in respect to various matters and, as honourable members recognize, already in this session I have had the privilege of introducing a number of bills which are the result of recommendations from our Law Reform Commission.

I expect that some time later this session I will be in a position to table a copy of an annual report by the Law Reform Comm ission, and later there will be copies for each member of the Legislature. I could list the number of specific legislative changes that they have recommended but I think I•ll leave that for the members when they peruse the report that later will be available.

In respect to the Human Rights Commissi on, the work of this commission has seen further development in an advertising program to bring home to the people of Manitoba the varied activities of the Human Rights Commission in respect to the development of a full and effective human rights program, This commission has heard a good number of complaints, investigated them, conciliated some, others have been taken before or have been heard in a formal manner.

Orders -were made· and as a matter of fact two of those orders are still before the courts by way of appeal from decisions that the court made in respect to them, The Manitoba Police Commission has embarked on a very extensive program of public relations, development of -- Well the Honourable Member for Swan River says why? -- Well now, --(Interjection)-- Well, I want the record to show them --(Interjection)-- I want the record to show them • • • MR0 CHAIRMAN: Order, please. You all know the House rules.

When an honourable member is on the floor the rest will not interrupt (Hear, hear) The Honourable Attorney - General, MR0 MACKLI NG: I want, Mr. Chairman, therefore, if the Honourable Member for Swan River wants to criticize the Police Commissi on, and he did so from his seat, he'll have an opportunity to rise and register his criticism, but I want to indicate that he appears to be

1686 April 12, 1973 SUPPLY -A TTORNEY - GENERAL (MR. MACKLING cont'd) .••.. critical of the fact that we in this government recognize the need for better relations to be developed between people in society and those who are charged with the responsibility of enforcing our laws. And that I think is a continuing res ponsibility and if the Honourable Member for Swan River is critical of that then I think his criticism is very ill-founded. This --(Interjection)-- MR. CH AIRMAN: Order, please. Order. Order, please. I wish the Honourable Member for Swan River would quit muttering when another member is speaking. MR.

BILTON: Mr. Chairman, I•m not muttering. I mean what I say, whether you like it or not. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. --(Interjection)-- If the honourable member doesn't want to behave himself there are ways and means of dealing with him. The Honourable Attorney General. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman. --(Interjection)-- Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman, I want to implore you - - - Mr. Chairman, I want to implore you . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR. MACKLING: I want to implore you, Mr. Chairman, to be tolerant of the vexatious remarks from across the way because I intend to be very tolerant of them.

I appreciate the fact that the honourable members might disagree from time to time about some of the things I say, and it is their right to criticize in a formal way, or, if they choose, in their informal manner. And it won•t bother me, Mr. Chairman, because I•ve got accustomed to this sort of technique on the part of some honourable members. It doesn•t do them any good, and if it does trouble me in the least, Mr.

Chairman, I will merely place on the record that fact that these interjections are made, how they're being made, and point out that they're being made in a rude and unruly fashion, and I think that that will have the necessary effect because after all, I•m sure that honourable members sometimes read Hansard and they will wonder about their rudeness being alluded to. Therefore, Mr.

Chairman, I think that -- I hope that you will disregard the mutterings of the Ho nourable Member for Swan River, and I am indicating now on the record that he is muttering again. --(Interjection)-- Well, now we are continuing to hear these rude interjections from the Honourable Member from Swan River, and when he makes them I will record them. --(Interjection)-- That•s right, indeed. In any event, Mr. Chairman, the Manitoba Police Commission has met on quite a number of occasions.

They have developed a very far-reaching program and in due course later during a specific review of my estimates on that particular matter, I will go into some detail about the type of program that they envisage and some of the specifics of it. I would like to also indicate, Mr.

Chairman, that the Criminal Injuries Compensation Act, by virtue of which the innocent victims of crime now receive compensation, has been fully developed, The arrangements with the Workmen's Compensation Board are working very well as the result of which instead of having a separate bureaucracy, a separate mechanism to deal with the assessment of the injuries to victims of crime, we now have the same board carrying out like functions and saving the taxpayers in considerable cost. You know, from time to time, Mr.

Chairman, critics, particularly those in the Official Opposition, suggest you know that we proliferate the bureaucracy, that we go out of our way to develop a larger bureaucracy. Time and again, I can refer to examples and here is one where it is a hard-headed constructive approach towards government program that has been utilized to made sure that no more staff is hired than is absolutely necessary to carry out an effective program, And such is the case with the workings of the Criminal Injuries Compen sation Act pursuant to arrangements with the Workmen's Compensation Board. And that is as it should be.

A person who is injured as a result of a criminal act should be compensated along the same terms and the same manner, and have the same evaluation as the workman, if a workman, individual workman, suffered injury during the course of his employment. I might say at this stage, Mr. --(Interjection)- - I hear rude interjections again from the Honourable Member from Swan River but that does not dissuade me. He is interjecting again. He•s making raucous noises again, and let the record show that.

They are not intelligible, They are mean, they are nasty and they are petty, but they don't trouble me. - - (Interjection)-- He is making those noises again. Let me indicate, Mr. Chairman, that approximately a year ago the Federal Government announced with considerable fanfare that they were now going to provide some funding as

April 12 , 1973 1687 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY - GENERAL (MR. MACKLING cont'd) ..•.. compensation to the victims of criminal activity, and I think a lot of people throughout Canada felt that this was a very noble and proper act on the part of the Federal Government. We have lately signed an agreement with the Federal Government to accept their benevolence, and it•s based on five cents per capita or 90 percent of the actual awards whichever is the lesser, and I want to assure you, Mr.

Chairman, that I have drawn to the attention of the Federal Government in more ways than one, what I consider to be their token participation in this field. What we will receive by way of contribution from the Federal Government is a sum of approximately $50, OOO and, as honourable members will probably note when we come to the specifics of that ·item in my Es timates, we are budgetting for a minimum of $200, OOO by way of awards to victims of criminal activities, I suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that the contribution of the Federal Government is tokenism in this respect, and I had indicated to them that there was no reason why the Federal Govern me nt shouldn't have paid 100 percent of the cost of the awards of compensation for victims of crime , because after all, the laws pursuant to which people are tried for those criminal activitie s, the administration of all of those laws, that is, not the administration, the promul gation, the development of those laws, is an entirely Federal matter and one would have thought that they would have wanted to provide full compensation for victims of crime that have been determined pursuant to their laws.

I should touch briefly on the Provincial Lotteries Licen sing Bo ard, and that is distinct from the Ce ntennial Lottery, the Provincial Lotte ry. The Licen sing Board 1-iears applications in respect to the various lotteries throughout Manitoba that individuals wish to operate where the prizes have a gross amount of $3, OOO, 00 or more .

And there are a very, very considerable number of individual groups in society who want to raise funds for benevolent purposes and charitable purposes, by utilizing the lottery concept and that has been fairly and properly adjudicated by a board which we set up and I think it•s worked very well. --(Interje ction)-- Now, the honourable member asked me whether we have turned any down, Well I -- you know, I'm sure that there have been lottery applications that have not been accepted, I don•t think that if a board is doing its work it merely rubber stamps every application that comes before it or else it•s not performing a proper functio n.

If the honourable member has something specific, later on I•ll be most happy to deal with it . Now -- I didn•t consider that interjection very rude, Mr, Chairman, so I didn•t categorize it in that fashion, The Board of Review is a different board, Mr.

Chairman, I suppose it •s one of those which the Honourable Leader of the Opposition is so critical of; he would like to eliminate that Bo ard, eliminate a lot of boards, And one of these times I'll find out which one of the boards for which I am responsible and I have to report to the House , that he would like to be eliminated, and I will have to consider that suggestion if it•s made in a serious manner and I•ll certainly want the specifics of his recommendation, But the Board of Review was established pursuant to Federal law and is made up of a number of professional people includ ing two practicing psychiatrists, and they are charged with the responsilility of reviewing periodically those persons who are held in institutions at the pleasure of the Lieuten ant - Governor-in Council as a result of either their having committed a capital offence and riot having the capacity to stand trial or like circumstances, And as the result of the activities of the Board of Review, some of the persons who have been institutionalized have been re leased under very carefully monitored conditions and there has been some very humane progress in that field, I could touch briefly on the La nd Value Appraisal Commission , who has been charged with considerable amount of work in respect to acquisition of properties for such developments, for example, as the new Br andon Bridge and so on, It has worked very well, a system that was set up under the previous administration, and there •s no question but it was a very des irable thing, In respect to law enforcement, I do want to go into perhaps just a little bit more detail in connection with the developments there, Mr.

Chairman, because that is an area where we have made what I consider a fairly substantial thrust in developing a much more equitable program for some of the communities in Manitoba who have been faced with spiralling costs municipally and have complained from time to time to government that they need, they would appreciate there some increased aid in respect to the cost of police services,

1688 April 12, 1973 SUPPLY -ATTORNEY - GENERAL (MR. MACKLING cont•

d) Now one of the things, Mr. Chairman, which we inherited, was a provision in the Municipal Act that any community, village, town or city with a population of 500 persons or more was charged with the responsibility of engaging a police constable as a chief and such other deputies as that community might require, and of course those police services would be paid for by the community entirely at its own expense. For all communities with a population of under 500 people, the province assumed responsibility for policing itself.

Now looking at that system, one could see that there were bound to be some rather rough situations, some very inequitable situations. Particularly was that evident, Mr. Chairman, when one considered that some communities with populations under 500 had a much higher, a considerably higher equalized tax base than some communities with a population of over 500· So obviously some of the communities with a better ability to pay for local services including protection services, were not being charged with that service

whereas .other communities with a reduced ability to pay were charged with the full responsibility of engaging their own police services.

As honourable members know, some years ago -- I should recall the exact date, I believe it was in 1965 -- the Province of Manitoba entered into a 10-year agreement with the Federal Government for the provisioning of police services through the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and this 10-ye.,r agreement provided for a gradually escalating cost to the province up to a maximum of 50 percent of the costs of the provisioning of one Royal Canadian Mounted Police constable, including his salary, his automobile and all of the various equipment necessary for that individual policeman•s services, and on the basis of the agreement which was signed, as I say, way back in 1965, the total costs of the RCM Police for all the cars and all the salaries and so on, is tallied up and the number of police, the services chargeable under the contract, are then -- individual police units chargeable under the contract are divided into the total and they come up with an annual costing to the province of an individual police contract, and in 1973 that comes to $11,208, as I recall it, which is approximately, approximately 48 percent of the total cost of that policeman's salary, automobile equipment and so on.

Now, pursuant to the agreement that we have with various communities in Manitoba pur suant to extension contracts, we merely turn over to the community the services of an RCMP constable pursuant to the same costing arrangement that we have with Ottawa, and thus it is that a considerable number of communities in Manitoba have engaged RCM Police services, and they have provided an effective provincial police service since they are integrated as well with the police personnel that have a direct charge and responsibility to the province for policing the highways and policing all areas of the province where the population, as I•ve indicated, does not warrant a charge to the individual town or municipality itself, town or village or city itself.

Now --(Interjection)-- I want to abide strictly by the rules, Mr, Chairman, --(Inter jection)--If you•ll permit me to go beyond the 30 minutes I•ll be happy to answer questions as I go along, but I do want to abide by the rules and sit down when I•m supposed to, and then I think the honourable member will be able to fire questions at me and I'll be able to respond, but I don't want to break now and then not finish my overview of the department --(Interjection)- Well now, the rucord indicates that the Honourable Member from Lakeside says that I am a fine fellow and I think that•s very nice of him. --(Interjection)-- No, I think that we•ll have something further to say about steers later on, Mr.

Chairman, and I think the Honourable Member from Lakeside has some fine steers -- I hope he has anyway, because it's a good year for steers -- as long as we get some moisture. However, let•s not get sidetracked, let's not get steered off course here, Mr, Chairman. --(Interjection)-- Now, you know, the Honourable Member from Lakeside is now getting less polite and he is trying a diversion, don't think it•s a high level diversion this time. But I would like to carry on, Mr.

Chairman, by saying that as a result of an obvious inequi ty in this relationship between communities of under 500 in number of population and those with a population in excess of 500 but still with a very small tax base, we looked at techniques whereby we could provide some reasonable equitable change in tlB costing arrange ments, and what we came up with was a formula whereby there would be a gradual increase in the assumption by the community of a greater portion of the cost of an individual police man's salary based on the cost to the communities presently under the RCMP contract of

April 12, 1973 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY - GENERAL (MR, l\1ACKLING cont•d) ...• $11, 208. And what we did was we took the equalized tax assessment of each of the communities that would be affected, and divided up, and as each 1689 of the comm unities• equalized tax base increased by sums of $100, OOO there was a five percent reduction in the assumption by the province of the cost of an RCMP -- of that portion of the RCMP constable •s salary pursuant to the contract which normally they would pay for if they were paying for the 100 percent service .

And as a result, as a result we have provided a sum in excess of $200, OOO for . . . l\IR, CHAIRMAN: The Minister has five minutes. MR, l\Li\CKLING: Well I have five minutes, I•ll be able to conclude this item then hope fully, lVIr. Chairman, if -- that's providing the Honourable Member from Swan River is inter ested enough to contain himself. Thus it is, Mr. Chairman, that the foilowing communities will receive the following sums of money by way of assistance from the province. The Community of Arborg will receive 40 percent of the costs of an RCM Police salary or a contribution of $4, 483. 00.

And I want to make it clear, Mr. Chairman, that this money is being paid to the individual communities without reservation, without qualification, and where they choose to hire a policeman of their own they do so. If that police, if the costs of that police service is less than the amount which we provide, that is completely up to them. Naturally we would like them to maintain a high standard of police service and we think that arrangements with the extension contracts of the RCM Police would provide the be st service.

However , -- and I think here the Honour able l\lember for Swan River might agree -- however, it is entirely up to th<! community to decide on the allocation of that money towards police services. And I•ll read some of the communities then; I think I can quickly run through the communities and the amounts.

The community of Birtle -- $4, 483 contribut ion towards services , police services, Crystal City -- $8,406; Deloraine -- $2,802; El khorn -- $8,406; Em erson - $3,3 62; Er ickson - - $7, 845; Et helbert - $8,996; Gilbert Pl ains - $5, 043; Glenboro - $6, 164; Gretna --$9, 526; Gladstone - $5, 043; Grandview - $3, 36 2; Hartney - $7, 285; Hamiota - $5, 043; Lac du Bonnet -- $3, 362; Mac Gregor --$6, 724; Manitou --$4, 488; l\IcCreary - $8, 966; Mini tonas $8, 406; Melita - $1, 681; Mor ris , sorry about this - $560. 00: Niverville -- $6, 724; Notre Dame De Lourdes -- $8, 966; Pilot Mound -- $6, 164; Powerview ·--$9, 526; Rivers -- $3, 362; Riverton -- $8,966; Rossburn --$6, 724; Ste.

Anne $6, 724; St. Claude - $7, 845; St. Pierre --$7, 285; Ste. Rose du Lac - $7, 285; Shoal La ke - $5, 604; Somerset - $7, 285; Teulon - $6, 164; Treherne -- $7,285; Wi nnipegosis - $8,406; Carberry - $3. 362. To the Honourable Member fnm Lak eside, who has been constantly carping away during my reading of this list, I would like him to know that the Province of Manitoba, as I understand it, assumes the full cost of responsibility for policing in that area and there is no apportion. Now I think, Mr. Speaker, I have probably exhausted my time . --(Interjection)-- I have one minute left? That is delightful.

Therefore , Mr. Chairman, I will briefly indicate that in addition to that major thrust, the provis ion of very substantial increased sums of money for legal aid highlight the significant changes in this budget. l\IR, CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well. Thank you, l\Ir. Chairman, I was rather surprised that the Attorney-General was reading off all those amounts of mon ey.

It sounded like he was trying to outdo the Premier with his Budget, and quite frankly I would have thought the Premier would have been brought in to read out all the goodies as he has been doin g through this session. But we must say that the program that they have for helping policemen in the rural areas, policing in the rural areas of l\fanitoba, is gratifying and it's been asked for for a long time by the people of the rural areas and we have been pressing for it on this side , and for once , for once we now seem to have gotten through to the government that this is required.

You know, it reminds me of every time you read out a resolution, "the advisability of" and the government has taken for once the advisability of and done something about it, And I don•t really compliment the government on that; tonight is the Attorney-General's night, we•ll compliment him, But as the Member for Woodlands -- I mean Lakeside said, you know, it•s a good year for steers and it seems like a good year for the Attorney-General, but it•s not all that good; he's not going to get off quite that easy.

He•s given us a little bit of a lecture , you know; all of a sudden we now get recorded by him if we make a comment across the House so that our grandchildren can read it, and I wish he hadn•t said that because he well knows

1690 April 12, 1973 SUPPLY - ATTORNE Y - GENERAL (MR. F. JOHNSTON cont•d ) ••.•• that if the Opposition will be saying things that will be read by our grandchildren we might say a bit more. So you better be very careful from that point of view. Lecture, rudeness and will record, one would think that the Attorney-General has never been rude, never been mad, and never said anything that should not be recorded in this House. You know, it all dependswhoseox isbaing gored in this particular type of a debate. Mr.

Chairman, we will be getting down to the Attorney-General's Estimates item by item and I•m sure that there'll be questions on his Estimates as we get through item by item, but we are on his salary. As you know, when we•re on the Minister's salary that is the time when we must have the Minister come forward and explain the reasons why he gets that salary or why he operates the department with the policies that he has.

And I intend to talk policy because I do want some explanations from the Attorney-General regarding the policy, and I would expect that the Attorney-General would not mind and think he should, during the time when his Estimates answer some questions regarding policy of the Human Rights Commission. Mr. Chairman, a little while back we had a great reporting of the chairman of the Human Rights Commission being discharged. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I•m not going to discuss personal ities in this respect but I would like the Attorney-General to, when he•s explaining this or answering my query, that it would seem that the Human Rights Commission that was set up, that every time they got close to disturbing the Provincial Government on the Human Rights Commission they got their toes trampled upon. Mr.

Barry when he was on television, after he had received his notice, said, "You know, every time we approached private industry with some problems regarding human rights, that they were taken hold, something was done about it, we received tremendous co-operatio n. " And really, all the reportin g and all the indication really shows or leads us to believe that every time the Human Rights Commission got very close to checking the government up on something that they were doing, then there was a very great holler from the government.

In other words, it wasn't fair to be doing this to the government when it was fair to be doing it to others. That has to be explained. Mr. Chairman, I can remember one time, and I quite often refer to the days when the Honourable Attorney-General and I were aldermen together, we set up a safety committee in St. James and the first thing this safety committee did was investigate all the Public Works trucks and every vehicle we had in the City of St. James. They caused us no end of problems but it was good for us.

We learned what we were doing wrong and we accepted it; we had to accept it -- we had set up the commission. The same thing applies in this respect, and I think the Attorney-General should explain that all indications show that the Human Rights Commis sion, when they start trampling on the government•s toes, really it is not liked and they get into trouble. There is one other area where I believe the Attorney - General should give us some explanation in this House, and that is regarding the charges that were brought forward in this House regarding the investigation or criminal charges laid against Mr.

Kasser and Mr. Reiser or CFI. It is my opinion that the Attorney-General's position in the government is to handle the law enforcement and see that the law is carried out to the letter. And quite frankly, when it is learned that there is a criminal charge and there is somebody that should be prose cuted by this province for taking something from the people of this province, then at no time should there be any wasting of time to get that prosecution going for the benefit of the people of Manitoba.

And I read this once before in the House and the Attorney-General wasn't there, and I•m wondering now if the policy is changed. This is regarding the King Choy - - it's got, "Loans to King Choy have been irregular -- Premier." It says here, 11The bailiff notice provided for a seizure of company's inventory of processed foods which is expected to be sold publicly within the next week, Mr. Schreyer said a loan application can be so made as to give good impression of the company's solvency when in fact this is not the case.

He said he has some reason to believe that there was an irregularity in King Choy application. Whoever is involved in this King Choy group or firm I have instructed the civil servants on the case if they find any irregularities tc nail them and nail the m fast. I want no stone left unturned in this case, the Premier said." Now, Mr. Speaker, if that is the policy of the government, and I•m sure that the At torney General agrees that if there have been irregularities against the people of Manitoba in any way,

April 12, 1973 1691 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY - GENERAL (MR. F. JOHNSTON cont'd) .. ... shape or form, in this case the policy of the government was to prosecute or nail them and nail them fast. I think the Attorney-General should explain to this House all the reasons he can within the limits of judiciary and everything that we hear about regarding CFI why, what good reasons were there for delaying the prosecution against these men when there was evidence, evidence to say that they had taken something from the people of Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, that is a policy that should be explained to the people of Manitoba and to this House and I'm sure the Attorney-General is capable of explaining it and we would await that explanation. Mr. Speaker, that's really all I have to say at the present time. I would like to hear some answers from the Minister and possibly somebody else has some items they would like the Attorney-General to explain to them. But I think those two policies that fl.re the govern ment's policies, have to be explained; (

a) when the Human Rights Commission got close to trampling on the government's toes they seemed to be stopped and we would like to know why; and also I would like to know from the Attorney-General why he did not move faster than he did regarding the case against Mr. Reiser and Mr. Kasser. l\IR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Thompson. l\IR, BOROWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker,. I have been waiting very anxiously for the Attorney-General's Department, one of the few departments that I have a great deal to say.

I'm not going to be able to put it all in tonight but I understand that I can speak again and I certainly intend to . There are several items I want to touch on, legal aid, divorce, human rights, parole, drugs, crime and severl other issues in the administration of justice, including the one mentioned regarding why the CFI Inquiry and charges were handled the way they were. Tonight, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to really confine myself to the question of the Human Rights Commission which I consider a disaster in this province and I'm glad to see that Peter Warren has finally got off the tangent of chasing the farmers over the high price of meat and he's now talking on his program about inhuman human rights. I have a clipping before me, Mr. Speaker, dated the 6th of April and some of the recommendations here at Friday's conference. First recommendation: The Human Rights Act should have priority over all other forms of legislation.

That's a pretty incredible recommend ation and I'm curious to see what the Attorney-General is going to have to say about that. The Human Rights Act should prevent social agencies from ·visiting or having access to private residences without permission of the resident. Companies studying applications for credit bonding and employment should be prevented from seeking information on criminal or police records. A citizen advisory group should be set up to advise the Human Rights Commission on the public's concern about human rights. l\lr.

Chairman, I realize that these are only recommendations but they are pretty frightening when you examine them in the light of the Human Rights Commission or the human rights legislation in the United States that is being promoted and as a matt er of fact has been put on the legislative law books down there.

As I see the recommendations and the direction that the government is going into it would seem that the Human Rights Act is going to cause a great deal of problems; it'll crush and strangle individual and corporate rights.; is going to infringe on people's freedom of speech, freedom and right to hire or associate with one another, and I think we have the best example of that, Mr. Chairman, right at this time where a lady wanted to hire a woman to live with her as a babysitter.

She went to the local press and they said I'm sorry we can'ttakethe ad becausethestupid legislation that that government has passed will not allow us to take an ad saying that we want a nice little old lady to come and live in with this lady and kids. That is not human rights, Mr. Speaker, that is dictatorship by a stupid government. We have human rights, so-called human rights that doesn't allow an employer to ask a person if he even belongs to a union. Mr.

Speaker, you check the legislation that was passed by th e l\linister of Labour, the strike legislation forcing people to take the right to strike even though they don •t want it; and the other

section of the Act where you can't ask a person whether he's in a union. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that it's just the opposite of hu<!! an rights. It seems to me that it's cheap political, our political year phonyness, it's a reaction because there is an election coming. The l\Iinister is now coming out and saying that he's going to change certain things because there's complaints. You know last year we were talking about some people down on

1692 April 12, 1973 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY - G ENERAL (MR. BOROWSKI cont'd) ..... Main Street who were cashing T-4 slips at half price and the Minister at that time stated that he couldn't do anythingabout it because it was federal jurisdiction. Now he is saying to us he's going to pass legislation to stop this what appears to be out-and-vut robbery to buy T-4 slips at half price . On the other hand we have the Member for Flin Flon asking a question of the Attorney General yesterday, are they going to stop the banks of offering $25. 00, $25. 00 cash I believe to get al , OOO loan? Mr.

Speaker, it seems to me that what the bank is really saying, we'll give you a loan at a lower interest rate. - -(Interjection) - - A lower interest rate. Well if he want to talk about being sucked in I think there's worse examples where they're saying whether you can afford it or not, come into our travel agency and we will let you fly around the world with nothing down. That I think is sucking you in. A person is not going to go into a bank and get a loan and pay $50. 00 or $75. 00 just to gain 25, because in the end he's a loser.

It seems to me the bank should be co=ended for bringing forth a proposal if a person who borrows money is going to get a better deal than he has been up to now. But the Attorney - General gets up in the House -- the Attorney-Ge neral gets up in the House and he is E'..tddenly very concerned. He's going to look into this terrible practice.

But the shysters are operating and taking half of the money from the poor guys that have to have money, they can't wait for the slowpoke civil servants in Ottawa to return their income tax cheques, they've been swindling them for several years and the Attorney-Ge neral sits there and says, well what can I do? That's the name of the game. Well I suggest to you, Mr. Chairman, that it's phoney cheap politicking to be suddenly concerned about a situation like that . --(Interjection) -- Absolutely.

I think the longer we listen to the pious utterings from the government the more one comes to the con clusion that when it comes to an election they really are no different than those terrible Torys or those terrible Liberals. Mr Chairman, it seems to me that the objective of the government with their Human Rights Commission -- I think the fault has to be divided between the Human Rights Commission and the government because the government set it up, laid down the guidelines and the human rights people have to strug gle along with it somehow.

But it seems to me that they have almost a women's lib objective, to smash so-called male supremacy, to drag everybody down to the level of the prostitutes and the perverts and the homos, the anti-marriage and anti-religious --(Interject'.on)-- Well, I'm going to read something for the Minister of Educa tion that will cause him to turn green when he realizes just exactly what the objective -- and under the legi slation what can be achieved --(Interjection) -- I'm sorry, the Minister of Colleges and Education. Mr.

Chairman, there's been a lot of injustice in this country, there's been a lot of injustice in North America and certainly some kind of redress was necessary. But what we have today, Mr. Chairman, is a drive for social change that seems to have gone wild and is on the verge of extremism. We have a system that's going to really victimize the rest of society because someone else -- and I mentioned the babysitter epic as just one example, because someone else wants to drag somebody to their own level. So we're going to pass legislation saying everybody is going to be the same . And, Mr.

Chairman, if they are allowed to get away with it the next thing is going to be the Human Rights Act will be applied to the clergy, and you know very well that under certain religions women are not allowed to be a priest and if this Human Rights Act and this legislation is going to be brought to its ultimate then we're going to have to say to the religious organizations that it's a lot of bunk and we don't give a damn what your church stands for. Let me just read -- let me read an

article from the Phylis Schafely Report, January, 1973. This is a statement by the Rabbinical Alliance of America . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Order, please. I can't hear what the honourable member is saying. There's too much muttering and whatnot going on in this Chamber. If you want to have caucus meetings oro ther meeting so ther than to hear the honourable member then I suggest you go elsewhere and do that. MR. BOROWSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I'm referring to the legislation that's called the equal rights legis lation in the United States and the Rabbinical Alliance of America has made this statement to the state government and the federal government of the United States. "We demand that the equal rights amendments as now worded not be ratified until adequate protection for

April 12, 1973 1693 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY - GENERAL (MR. BOROWSKI cont'd) .. .. . our religious rights be written into it. We ask the states to send the amendment back to Congress to be reworded with clear, specific guarantees that our religious freedoms and practices shall not be jeopardized. We are not now prepared and we are certain that freedom-loving Americans of other religious persuasions are similarly not prepared to see religious rights in America harmed by politicians hurriedly pursuing the latest political fad. " Mr.

Speaker, if a government through its board can order a person that they have no right to say that I want a woman to babysit in my house why can't they have the right under the same legislation to say that we don't care what the Jewish Church or what the Catholic Church says, we say that you cannot exclude women from the priesthood. And they can use the force of it. I don't know if they're going to. Mr.

Speaker, that is what the human rights legislation is all about and if you look at -- I know the government has looked at the Americal legislation and I know some l'dinisters have said that it's a model that they want to tailor theirs by, and if that is a fact Mr. Speaker, then I think that more members of the House should read the legislation that they're bringing in the United States. It's pretty frightening legislation. And let me just read some of it: "Will make every wife in the U.S. legally responsible to provide 50 percent of financial support of her family.

Will wipe out a woman's present freedom to choice to take a p aying job or to be a full time wife and mother supported by her husband. Will make women subject to the draft. Will put women on warships and make them subject to combat duty on an equal basis with men regardless of whether we have a draft or not. Will eliminate the preferential social security benefits women now enjoy. Will w ,pe out many protective labour laws which benefit women. Will knock our present laws protecting women from sex crimes such as statutory rape and forced prostitution.

" -- (Interjection)-- Well you let them stay in office long enough and they will. "Will integrate boys and girls physical education classes in high schools and colleges. Will jeopardize present lower life insurance rates for women "�and in Manitoba the driver's licence. "It would create havoc in prisons and reforms by preventing segregation of sexes. " MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Attorney-General on a point of order. i\IR. MACKLING: l\'lr.

Chairman, my point of order is this : That I certainly do want to hear all the contributions of the honourable members in respect to the operations of my department but I really don't think that we want to take up the time of the House to learn what the operations of human rights commissions are elsewhere in the world other than Manitoba or what their iaws or what their recommendations are. I think that the debate has to be relevant. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR. MACKLING : I think that debate has to be relevant and I would appreciate it being focused on this Human Rights Commission. MR.

CHAIRJ.VlAN= I think the point is well taken. That the honourable member should stick to the items that are under the jurisdiction of this House, the proposed legislation that the honourable member is reading about is something that is outside the jurisdiction of this House, outside the jurisdiction. of this country and I think that his remarks should be .. MR. BOROWSKI: Mr. Chairman, I will read .. . MR. CHAIRl\IAN: Order, please. I think his remarks should be directed.to the estimates of the department we're under and the jurisdiction under which it operates. The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR.

BOROWSKI: i\lr. Chairman, I'm going to read something that I'm sure that's .. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: l\lr. Chairman, speaking to the point of order. that the Attorne y General brought up. Earlier today in this House we had the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. tell us that the Ontario Government put on a two percent increase in sales tax.

Now that is not relevant to the Province of M anitoba and if the members on that side can bring up things like that I think that the members on this side can compare l\lanitoba to other provinces as well. l\lR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Order, please. I don't think that is relevant to the point that is under discussion. ORDER! I was not in the Chair at the time. We were dealing on a point of grievance at that time. The honourable had a point of privilege or a point of

169-! A[-'ril 12, 1973 SUPPLY - ATTORNEY - GENERAL (MR. CHAIBMAN cont'd ) .... . order at that time. That was the time he should have raised it, not now. MR. ENNS: On the point of order. MR. CHAIBMAN: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, on the point of order. We are dealing with the operations the possible, the potential and the future operations of a human rights commission --(Inter jection)-- Yes we are. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, the item under consideration under the jurisdiction of the Attorney-General entails the operations of a human rights commission.

It is only fair, just as when we deal in the broader matters of taxatioµ that we talk about taxation practices in this jurisdiction or another jurisdiction the member has to be given leeway to discuss the broadest implications, the broadest implications of an organization that we have established under our legislation in this province. I think that's what the member is trying to do whether you agree \Vith it or not, but he is referring to the kinds of actions that are possible or that he can see is possible in his mind under this kind of a board. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Attorney-General, the same point of order. MR. l\lACKLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, Well then I assume that the Honourable Member for Lakeside will be happy to hear me give some dissertations in response to all of these contributions dealing with the relative human ri.shts proe;rams in the Soviet Union, in China, in Albania, wherever he wants I'll draw comparisons and I'll go into a complete evaluation of that kind of program. I don't think that's what we're here for. MR. ENNS: ::VIr.

Chairman, let me assure the Attorney-General we will await with eager ears, we will await with eager ears all the contributions that the . MR. CHAIBMAN: Order, please. MR. ENNS: ... At':orney-General may have to give on the .. . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. BOROWSKI: Well, Mr.

Speaker, we're dealing with the Human Rights Commission which I'm trying to point out is destroying more rights than it's creating and I am tryiag to give some background on which this so-called phoney human rights legislation of theirs is modelled on and I want to indicate which direction we're heading. And I will talk about some thing that those Sodomites understand, and this deals with Sweden. Time Magazine, August 17th, 1970: "The country is a model for feminist groups around the world.

In order to prod husbands into encouraging wives to take a job the tax laws have been rewritten so that next year married men \vill be taxed at the same rate as bachelors, a financial jolt to men with non-working wives. Stay-at-home wives are frowned on as a luxury housewife by the ruling social democrats. Sweden's education system recently has been deliberately changed to eliminate the difference in the assumed sex roles. School boys do needlework and study homemaking while the girls take courses in auto repair and manual training. Nobody should be forced" -- well you see, Mr.

Speaker, they're already admitting that they like this legislation and I tell you that this is what they had in mind for this province. MR. CHAIBMAN: Order, please. _ MR. BOROWSKI: No I will not answer any questions. No none. I'm sorry you wasted enough of my time. ''Nobody should be forced into predetermined roles on account of sex says Swedish Prime Minister Olaf Plume whose own wife works as a child psychologist. " Now, Mr.

Speaker, I think if we go back into history we will find out where this government and the Swedish socialist government are getting their ideas, and I'm referring to a book called, "Women's Lib - One-Way Street to Bondage." "Communists consider themselves the great emancipators of women." --(Interjection)-- Cllristian Crusade Publications, it's not Catholic and it's not Jewish. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. ORDER ! MR. BOROWSKI: August Babel, a German socialist pioneer wrote a book published in 1902 called "Women under Socialism" which was highly praised by Lenin.

Babel' s conclusion after analyzing the lot of women in all forms of society in ancient and modern was, Communism is the most favourable social condition of women. Lenin himself wrote into the Communist emancipation ofwomen and I quote� " Take the position of women. Not a single democratic party in the world, not even the most advanced bourgeois republic has done in tens.of years a hundredth part of what we did in the very first year we were in power. In a literal sense of

April 12, 19 73 1695 SU PPLY - ATTORN EY - GENERAL (l\IR. BOROWSKI cont'd) ..... the word we did not leave a single brick standing of the despicable laws which placed women in a state of inferiority compared with men; of laws restricting divorce, of disgusting formalities connected with divorce, of laws on illegitimate children and on searching for their fathers, to the shame of bourgeois and of capitalism to be said numerous" --sorry-- "and of capitalism to be said, numerous survivals of those laws exist in all civilized .::ountries.

We have a right a thousand times to be proud of what we have done in this sphere" --Lenin. l\Ir. Speaker, as you look at '.vhat has been happening in this province since they brought in the Human Rights Commission which I think everybody in this House supported because they realized there were these injustices, but they have mongrelized it now where it's being used as a weapon and a club to beat down people who happen to have views contrary to those dead beats sitting on that side. And we object to th2.t, ;.\lr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, the Communist Party considers that women working in the house, it stultifies, degrades her, chains her into a kitchen and to the nursery and wastes her labour on barbarously unproductive petty nerve-wracking stultifying and crushing drudgery. That is their idea about women. lVIr. Speaker, if you're going to have equal rights among men and women --(Interjection)-- No, that's not my idea. That is -- I am quoting from the book. l\IR. CHAIRMAN: Ot:der. Order, please. The hour being 9:00 o'clock -- the Honour able Attorney- General. lVIR. MACKLJNG: l\Ir.

Speaker, I wonder if the honourable member would give us the reference to that noble work he's reading from because I would like to at kast have the benefit of checking it. l\IR. BOROWSKI: Yes, Mr. Speaker, it's called, "Women's Lib -- One-Way Street to Bondage" and it's a Christian Crusade publication from the United states. I would be very happy to give him a copy for 50 cents. The previous one, lVIr. Speaker, is ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please, MR. BOROWSKI: The Phylis Shafley Report from Alton, Illinois, January, 1973 issue . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

The hour being 9:00 o'clock, the last hour of every day being Private Members' Hour. Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply have adopted certain resolutions and have directed me to report the same and ask leave to sit again. JN SESSION MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS (Logan): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Point Douglas, that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried.

16 96 Apri l 12, 197 3 PUBLIC BILLS - SECOND READING MR . SP EAKER : First item on Thursday night - the Honourable House MR . PAU LLEY: Mr . Speaker . I understand that there has been consensus that we will give co nsent to the second reading on public bills that have been printed and not yet introduced for second readi ng, namely Bill 28, 29 and 27. I believe there is consensus and agreement on that, Mr . Speaker, and I would appreciate you ca lling the same . MR . SP EAKER: Proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Br andon West. The Honourable Member for Br andon West . BILL 28 MR . EDWARD McGILL: (Brandon West) presented Bill No. 28,

an Act to amend The Brandon Charter (2), for second reading. MR . SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for Br andon West . MR . McGILL: Yes , Mr. Speaker, I think I can be very brief on Bill No. 28 . At a pre vious session of the Legislature there was a bill passed that gave the City of Br andon authority under its Charter to enter into the co nstructio n of a parkade in the core sector of Brandon. Subsequent to the passage of that bill and in the process of selecting a site it became evident that the best site involved some land belonging to the T. Eaton Compa ny .

The company is prepared to grant a long-term lease to the City of Brandon but in order to build upon land which is owned by the city and also land which is leased on a long-term basis an additional authority was required under the City of Brandon's Chart er . This bill if passed would provide that authority . Thank you. MR . SP EAKER : The Honourable Member for Radisson . MR . HARRY SHAFRANSKY (Radiss on): Mr. Speaker , I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Winni peg Ce ntre the debate be adjourned . MOTION presented and carri ed . MR .

JORGENSON: I thought that there was an agreement here that those bills would be passed this evening. Was there not ... agreement to receive second readi ng? MR . SP EAKER: Proposed motion -- Order, please . Order , please . I was informed that it would be introduction of bills . The Honourable Member for La Verendrye . Bill No. 29. BILL 29 MR. BARKlVIAN presented Bill No. 29 ,

an Act respecting The Town of Stei nbach for second readi ng. MR . SP EAKER : The Honourable Member for La Verendrye . MR. BARKM AN: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the House Leader and other members of this House for allowing leave, In the case of Bill No. 29 it has a deadline on it and I appreciate very much that this was granted. Mr.

Speaker , this is simply a bill if passed allowing the citizens of the Town of Stei nbach an opportunity to hold a referendum on May 14th of 1973 instead of the regular prescribed date in the Act being the date when ci vic elec tions are normally or usually held, which this year would fall on the 24th of Octob er . I have no intention at this time to endorse or reject the intention of the referendum but I ask the members of this Legislature to leave that up to the people of Steinbach by giving them an opport unity to oppose or to favour such a referendum . So, Mr .

Speaker, the bill is merely asking for an earlier date for the referendum than the Act specifi es . I would like to make a few co mm-ents in this respe ct. I was quite co ncerned for a while that those opposed in allowing liquor , beer and wine sales would not have enough time to organize in opposit ion of these sales . I'm now satisfied and I hope with co -operat ion that we are receiving tonight these people will have ample time to present their views and to present their principles before the referendum would be held. I wish to leave another thought with all the members of this Assembly .

If this referen dum were held at the time of the local civil elec tions as the Act specif i es , in my opinion this could very Well change the outcome of the annual fall municipal election. I' m simply trying to suggest that this referendum co uld be of quite a co ntroversial nature , I belie ve the people of Steinbach would not want to see a councillor defeated or elected because of a stand that he or she took for or against this issue . I say co uncillor or co uncillors because the mayor Is term is not due or up for election in 1973 .

April 12, 1973 1697 BILL 29 (l\IR. BARKl\IAN cont'

d) I have perhaps one last comment that I would wish to make in regard to this matter . The Town of Steinbach passed a resolution on l\Iarch Sth , 1973 , and it was duly moved and seco nded. I just wish to read it into the record.

"Resolved that the town council go on record as having no obligations to an application for or the initiating of a private member 's bill to amend The Liquor Control Act which would permit the holding of a liquor referendum in the Town of Steinbach at a time prior to the annual fall municipal election ." This was carried and of course the secretary-treasurer hereby certifies that this is a true statement and if anybody wishes it to be tabled I will be glad to table it. l\Ir.

Speaker , I wish it to be clearly understood in this House and by the people of the Town of Steinbach, the aim of the bill is to change the date of the referendum only and shall not in any way encourage the outcome of the referendum in any way at all. There seems to be a contention of some people that if this bill passes then I for one am encouraging a "for'' vote in the forthcoming referendum . I think members in this House and myself realize that that decision will be left to the people of the Town of Steinbach and that this bill in my opinion, Mr .

Speaker, shall not influence the outcom e of the forthcoming referendum . MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable l\Iinister of Labour . MR . PAULL EY: Mr . Speaker, I want to assure my honourable friend that as far as the government is concerned that we have considered his representation and have considered the bi ll and realize the position as is existing at the present time in the Town of Steinbach; it could be even in the Town of Transcona under similar circums tances, Mr . Speaker , but it is not . So I want to assure the honourable irember , through you , Mr.

Speaker , that as far as the government is concerned we are prepared to agree to this bill being given second reading to night if that is the desire of the Assembly as a whole, and I also give my honourable friend the assurance that aE quickly as possible the responsible committee will be called to consider this bill and hear representations in order that the deadline of l\Iay 14th can be achieved . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morr is . MR . JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker , we have no objection at all to the bill proposed by the Member for La Verendrye recei,·ing second reading tonight .

Having represented the City of Steinbach for a number of years in the House of Commons I'm aware of the very strong feelings that could be generated on this particular issue and I think the course of action proposed by the Town of Steinbach in asking for a referendum at a time other than when the normal referen dum would be held, that is during the course of the civic elections , is a wise cour se, and for that reason we approve of the passage of this bill in second reading tonight and sending to committee .

I understand that there are peculiar situations that do arise from time to time which could not at the time of drafting of any legislation be taken into consideration, and there are occasions when legislation has to be drafted in order to take into consideration those particular situations . I think this is one of them and there may be one or two others that my honourable friends ·.vill be learning about in a very short time . MH . SPEAKER : Proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Flin Flon . The Honourable Member for Flin Flon . BILL 27 MR . THOMAS BARROW (Flin Flon ) pre sented Bi ll No . 27,

an Act to amend The Flin Flon Charter, for second reading. l\IR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Mem ber for Flin Flon . MR . BARROW: Mr . Speaker , the first explanation is by the mayor . I'll read ii to you and I'd like to give an explanation of my own following this . I '11 be very brief . "The amendment to the City of Flin Flon 's Charter will extend the city's boundaries to include the First ,-\venue-Church Street area which became a problem during the 1971 strike . A portion of Church Street , First Avenue, North Avenue and portions of some of the city's lanes crossed this area.

These streets and lanes were on Hudson 's Bay Mining and Smelting Company Limit ed's property and thus outside the city limits,were of necessity used by the public and were considered to be public roadways since the be ginning of Flin Flon . The way in which the streets were laid out in Flin Flon itself made it necessary to cross company property as well as the municipal boundaries in this particular area. Through the

1698 April 12, 1973 BILL 27 (MR . BA RROW cont 'd) ..... years no problems arose over this arrangement with the public as well as the cit y council being relatively unconcerned with a system that was working smoothly. Unfortunately during the 1971 strike the Hudson 's Bay Mining and Smelting Com pany Limited applied for and received a court injunction preventing picketing by strikers on their property. This of course meant that no picketing was allowed on the portions of the streets on company property . As a result picketers were requir ed to picket within the cit y to avoid being on mining company property.

Much distress resulted from the situation as picketing was now some distance from the portion of Hudso n's Bay Mining and Smelting Comp any property on which the plant and mines are located . The people became quite annoyed at suddenly being denied free usage of streets and roads which had been considered public . It soon became quite apparent that only through the extension of the cit y 's boundaries to include this area could the public interest be served .

Many discussio ns between City Co uncil and the Hudso n Bay Mining and Smelting Com pany as well as with elected officials of the Provincial Government have taken place as a result of this situation . The Ci ty Council now has obt ained the consent of the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Comp any to have the city 's boundaries extended by this amendment . We hope that the Legislature will give the matter early attention and thus resolve a situation which arose as a problem some two years ago . What actually happened , Mr .

Speaker, when a strike broke out in Flin Flon in 1969 the pickets were on the gates , eight on each gate, and the company in their ignorance and utter disregard to people moved these people two blocks over, two streets down. This caused more than a little concern because this land that people had thought was theirs for 30 years suddenly wasn 't theirs . The fire hall was on company Property , so if a fireman refused to cross a picket line we had no fire protec tion . The hospital or the clinic , you could see the doctor but you co uldn't go in and get your drugs . To honour the picket line this was out.

The building of the new hospital was also on company prop erty . They were building an extension at this time and if they all had honoured this picket line that would have been held up. The curling rink, the skating rink, also on company property, was not available to people who honoured the picket line. Now, there was a lot of pressure put on me at that time to pass a bill exonerating councils of spending money on property that wasn 't theirs for cleaning grains and so on. I did this be cause the present council wasn 't the only ones guilty of this offence, it was former councils too.

Finally we got the bill through all right , and then became a problem of how we obtained this land . So I met twice with the council in camera, asking them to give me authority to expropriate . But for some strange reason this word seemed very very hard to them to get out , and to me it' s a good word . The dictio nary says : to expropriate - to take land and give it back to people . But anyway they wouldn't do it and the reaso ns they gave , the first reason, it would break their agreement with the company. My argument was agreements are broken every day and amendment s are made and this is no reaso n at all.

The sec ond reason they gave , it would weaken our bargaining position with the company, who of course receive grants in lieu of taxes . My argument was, you have no bargaining position; when you go you go with your hat in your hand, and the com pany knew exactly what they were going to give and there 's no way you have any bargaining position . But anyway, they still wouldn't use that dreaded word . So finally I went to a public meeting and luckily there were some union people there and we put it on the line .

Either you give us the word to expropriate or the steel people and the trade people will pass this on and we 'll do it their way. Of co urse what happened, word gets right back to the company; the next day we got the word, "we will turn the land over to you." And what this bill does is give the land back to the people who rightly owned it in the first place . Thank you, Mr . Speaker. MR . SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris . MR. JORGENSON: Mr .

Speaker , we had originally intended to allow the bill to pass seco nd reading tonight , and up until the time that the honourable member departed from his prepared text , we would have been prepared to do so.

But since he injected a good many other imponderables into his explanation of the purpose of the bill , brought in the old class warfare, the fights and his disagreements with the city counc il , and many other things , we are now come to the conclusio n that it may be necessary to examine this bill somewhat more ca refully in seco nd reading and make a few more enquiries before we permit it to pass for second read ing. So if my honourable friend had not been so vindicati ve or so prone to expounding on something that could have been a relatively simple matter , he would have very easily had this

April 12, 1973 1699 BILL 27 (lVIR. JORGENSON cont'd) . . .bill passed tonight. So I have no other comments to make on it other than to inform my honourable friend that the bill wi ll be adjourned and we are intending to cause a further examination of the intention of this bill to ensure that my honourable friend has properly informed the House as to its proper intent. --(Interj ec tio n)-- MR . SP EAKER: Order please . MR . JORGENSON: l\Iy honourable friend the Member for Radisson, who continues to interj ec t, has just suggested that what we' re doing is filibustering. Sir , it's nothing of the kind.

My honourable friend has made statements that cause us to have a sec ond look at this bill . Had he not made those statements we would have taken them at his word if he' d have stuck to his prepared text. MR . SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for Br andon West. MR . McGILL: Mr. Speaker , I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Roblin , that the debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and passed BILL 21 MR . SP EAKER: Proposed Bill No. 21. The Honourable Minister of Labour . l\IR . PA U LLEY: Mr.

Speaker, lest I be acc used of de via ting from a prepared text, I' ll sort of clear my desk in front of me so that the Honourable l\Iember for Morris if he hasn't already taken

part in this debate , could make such an oration as he just has done on Bill 27, I believe , and indicate that they were going to take some co urse of action bu� as a result of that changed their mind . Bill 21, Mr . Speaker, is a very interest ing bill . I wonder if my honourable friend the Member for Sturgeon Creek, I believe he co mes from, if he wants to speak in the House would he kindly get back to his seat in order that he may be in order . --( Interje ction)-- MR . ENNS: Mr . Speaker, on a point of clarifi cation, could you indicate to the House what matter of busin ess we 're now dealing with . MR.

SP EAKER: We are on Bill 21. MR. PAU LLEY: Ye s. If my honourable friend from Lakeside would stop rattling his ·· head he would be able then to hear what is being said in the House and not be disturbed by the rattlings therein , of his head . And the same, of course , applies to my honourable friend from Swan Riv_er and some of the other honourable gentlemen opposite .

I am glad to note that at the pres ent time, though, the one who is a represen tative of the Con servative Pa rty of the fairer sex at least is quiet . _And maybe it would be a good thing if the male components of the Con servative Party would take an example from the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge , at least at this time . As I was attempting to sa:y -- (Interjectio ns)-- as I was attempting to say , Mr .

Speaker, I have followed with a great deal of inte rest the debate that has thus far taken place on Bill 21, which basi cally deals with the question as to whether or not the person who would be the mayor of the City of Winnipeg should be elected by the Unicity Co uncil or by the citizens as a whole . You will recall , Mr . Speaker , that originally it was thought advisable to select or elect the mayor of the City of Winnipeg by the councillors of the Cit y of Wi nnipeg.

And then it was decided that for t..'ie first election of Unicity a change would be made to provide for the election of the mayor by popular vote of all of the citizens of Winnipeg and, as honourable members know, this was done . There has been some thought in some people's minds --(Interjectio n)-- have you taken

part in this debate ? --(Interjectio n)-- You haven't heard any comments from thi s side at all, Mr . Speaker, as I say to my honourable friend, because I am the first spokesman from the government in re spect of this bill . But Mr .

Speaker, my honourable friend from Rupertsland gives me the opportunity of indic ating what I believe to be a fact and the truth in re spect of this bi ll, because the Honourable Member for Rupertsland, the members of the Liberal Party , the members of the Con servative Par ty, who have spoken in this debate , feel that this is a great politi cal opportunity for them to sound the trumpets on behalf of the election of a person to be the mayor of the City of Winnipeg .

Time after time , and I believe even my honourable friend for Lakeside indicated , without any expres sion from this side of the House, that the Government of Manitoba does not like the present Mayor of the City of Winnipe g. Mr . Speaker, I want to inform my honourable

17 00 April 12, 1973 BILL 21 (MR . PA UL LEY cont'd) . . . . . friends that during the first election for mayor of Unicity, in my wind ow at 435 Yale Avenue West in Transcona was a sign indicating support for Mr . Steve Juba who was a candidate for the mayoralty in Winnipeg. My honourable friend, the House Leader of the Liberal Party (and Lord knows where his leader is tonight, out scuttling some body in the hustings somewhere) my honourable friend the Mem ber for Portage la Prairie asked me why I don 't support him now . Well, Mr . Speaker, he's not up for elect ion.

He 's not running . --(Interjecti on)-- I'm not scuttling him and if my honourable friend would only be courteous enough --(I nterje ction) -- MR . SPEAKER: Order please . MR . PAULLEY: If my honourable friend from Portage la Prairie would only be courteous enough to hear me out --Mr . Speaker, I'm surprised at my friend from Portage la Prairie speaking the way he is right now, because I believe it was only about three or four days ago that the same gentleman said he had t\vo favourite cabinet ministers or cabinet ministers that he likes, the Minister of Agriculture and the Mini ster of Labour.

And now he 's not even giving me the courtesy of really agreeing that I am at le ast a half decent individual . He may not like my policies, and here again --(Interjecti on)-- Yes, and you're the greatest shoveller of that muck that sometimes is raked around that I' ve ever seen in this House. lVIr. Speaker , the same thing applies to the Honourable Member for Lakeside . Even a moment or t\vo ago. MR . SPEAKER: Order please . The honourable member state his point of order. l\IR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker , on a point of order, I fail to see anything about the bill in the remarks of the Hon ourable the Minister. l\IR.

SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Minister of Labour . MR . PA UL LEY: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order, on the point of order I can see the failures of my honourable friend from Roblin because he 's consistently failed to comprehend anything that goes on in this House . But, Mr . Speaker, --(I nterjection )-- the Att orney-General gave you heck ! Boy, you sure deserve it.

You sure asked for it, you sure deserve it, and so far as the blubbering friend of mine from Lakeside --(Interjection )- - who fails in his forwarding of a suckling pig to the 11-linister of Labour, I think he should just desist and keep quiet lest I make more reference to that . But the point though, Mr. Speaker , that I' m endeavouring to make tonight --(Interje ction) -- MR . SPEAKER: Order please . Order please . MR . PAULLEY: I am trying to suggest, Mr .

Speaker, that there are those in this House who were wont to use any threat, as flimsy as it may be, to condem n this government because they think that an eleetion is in the offing. And they may be right . They may be right . And I would suggest, Mr . Speaker, that they should fear an election for the mayor of the City of Winnipeg --(I nterjec tion)--Mr . Speaker, did my honourable friend have a point of order ?- (Interject ion)- - Yes.

The Honourable Member for Rupertsland talks about hanging on to the tails of Juba, which he is doing. !'d on't know who put forward the 250 bucks, or whatever it was, that the Member for Rupertsland says that he paid for to get a couple of thousand letters back through the press medi a. But what, Mr . Speaker, the actions of the Honourable Member for Rupertsland indicates quite firmly the attitude of the Opp osition, that they are trying to hang on to the coattails of Steve Juba because they think that it would be in their stead.

And this is the whole emphasis that has been placed by the Member for Rupertsland and I guess maybe some of his friends outside of the House, the Member for Portage la Prairie, the Member for Lakeside, we have --(Int erjecti on)-- MR . SPEAKER: Order please . Order plea se . Order please . May I suggest to the Honourable l\lember for Lakeside that he contain himself. He has had his 20 minutes. I think he should be courteous enough to offer it to someone else as well. The Hon ourable Minister of Labour . MR . PAULLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . l\IR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister of Labour permit a question ? l\IR. PAULLEY: Ye s. l\IR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie . l\IR. G. JOHNSTON: When the Unicity Act was brought in, after some pressure and discussion the government decided that they should allow the mayor to be elected for the first term. Now I ask the Minister, what has changed in the democratic process where, if it's right in the first term, it now becomes a wrong thing after that ?

April 12, 1973 170 1 BILL 21 MR . PAULLEY: Mr . Speak er, this is exactly the point that I am trying to make to my honourable friend. I would say, Mr . Speaker , . . . MR . SPEAKER: Order please . Order plea se . Those little caucuses that desire to have a tete-a -tete can step outside . The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR . PAULLEY: Mr . Speaker , this substantiates the question of my honourable friend from Portage la Prairie , validates what I am trying to say . You know, we often talk about British justice or justi ce.

We condemn, we condemn prosecu tion, or persecutio n and sentencing before a man has been heard . That is the import of the question of the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie because he turned· around and said in his question , what has changed our approach, wi thout knowing whether that approach has been changed, or not. This is the idiocy that is being practiced by members opposite , Mr . Speak er. They have not given us an opportu nity of expressing our position, and it hasn't been expressed in this House . MR. G. JOHNSTON: When will it be ? MR.

PAULLEY: In about three minutes if you'll only keep quiet . And you will be surprised --(Interjection) -- The time limit, Joe , only gives me that much . But , Mr . Speaker , one would think, one would think that we 're going to have to have an elec tion for a mayor to morrow . I ask my honourable frim1d the Member for Portage la Prairie , I ask the Honourable Member for Lake side , and even I'll go as far as Sturgeon Creek, and ask them if they know when the next mayoralty election will take place in the City of Winnipeg. Will it be tomorrow ? Will it be this fall ? Will it be next spring ?

Will it be over a year hence ? And yet that outfit, Mr . Speaker , and in this instance I say that outfit across the other side ot this Chamber collec tively, have attempted to get on the coattails of the present mayor of the Cit y of Winnipeg and say, here is our champion , and those of us on this side of the House are opposed to him . Well I would suggest to my honourable friends opposite that this government has done more through its programs to aid the present Ma yor of Winnipeg to continue a firm position in the City of Winnipeg . We haven't persecuted him and my friend from Swan River •.. MR.

SPEAKER: Order , please . Order, please . MR . PAULLEY: The answer is ye s, Mr . Speaker, because this government has assisted the Mayor of Winnipeg and the City of Winnipeg in providing the neces sary finances in order that they might buy buses,

whereas that money-pinching outfit that we threw out wouldn't give them a red cent . And there's this --(Interjection)-- here is this muttering Member for Swan River who cannot conceive at all and cannot comprehend the contribution that this govern ment has made to the citizens of Winnipeg, and he , Mr . Speaker , he, Mr .

Speaker, in past debates has always criticized and condemned the distri bution of the resources of Manitoba -� (Interjection)-- No , I'm quoting you now. --(Interjection)-- Oh you wouldn't understand because you don't know from one day to the other what you said the day before . --(Interjection) --Yes they are . Yours. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prai rie . MR . G. JOHNSTON : About seven minutes ago the Minister said that within three minutes he would tell how he was going to vote on the bill and I would ask him to inform us how he's going to vote on the bill . MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minist er of Labour. MR . PAULLEY: You know , if my honourable friend but would --(Interjection)-- Yes, thanks, Gordon, I guess it's on beam wi th your inept thinki'lg . If my honourable friend from Portage la Prairie --I was almost going to say if he had a half an ou..'l.ce of intelligence he would grasp what I'm saying but I guess I can't give him credit for that --(Interjection) -- It does esca pe you, I know. I'm trying to penetrate his skull and I'm having a heck of a job.

I' m trying to establish --(Interjection)-- Yes, I made a solid promise that in due course or in a few moments whatever a few moments are, and let you decide what the twinkling of an eye is. Mr . Speaker , I indicated to my honourable friend that I will say where I stand . I also want to say, Mr . Speaker , and I want to repeat that that outfit across this As sembly have attempted with any bets they had or to use any excuse at all to find an elec tion iss ue . They have found, they have found none thus far that has any basis in foundation or fact. They couldn't challenge us on our budget; they voted for it .

So they go muckraking and they do it- but , I want to tell them, Mr . Speaker , that in this instance it's not going to pay off, because this government has never yet said that it does reject the elec tion of the Ma yor of the City of Winnipeg by a popular vote. I hate --I hate like heaven, Mr . Speak er , I hate like heaven --

17 02 April 12, 1973 BILL 21 (MR . PAULLEY cont'd) ..... --(Interjection) -- Why was the bill introduced ? Because you're stupid , that's why it was introduced, because you can't comprehend for two minute s any logic or any legal or proper approach to any of the problems of the Gmernment of Manitoba or the City of Winnipe g. But you thought that you would become a champion like Joan of Arc of years back.

I want to say to my honourable friend that it's absolutely ridiculous and his endeavour s will be scuttled because he jumped the gun, he got in the front part of a horse where he actually belongs at the rear end of it. MR . SPEA KER : The Honourable Member for Roblin . MR . McKEN ZIE : Mr .

Speaker , of all the examples of second reading of bill s that I've seen in this Legisl ature all the years that I've been here, where you 're supposed to talk about the principles of bill s and talk about the issue s of the day, and this front bencher over here who is supposed to be giving this province a thrust to move into tomorrow , and talking about all the wisdom of this government going in to meet an election, and stands up and make a speech like that, Mr . Speaker ? My, I feel sorry for the people of this province if that's the bes t they can offer on Bill 21 . And, Mr .

Speaker , this great orator, who sometime s reminds me of a statue that stands behind me with a piece of paper in his hand and that big pencil that he waves around from time to time . . . A ME MBER: And the Havana cigar. MR. McKENZI E: Could you imagine this province moving ahead tomorrow under the thrust of that speech that we just got tonight ? Unbelievable . Un believable . Especi ally when an issue is at stake that's a very important issue such as : do the City of Winnipeg elect their mayor at large, Mr . Speaker, or do they have that done by the City Council ? And, Mr .

Speaker, this great philosopher over there from Transcona said, ''We'll sound the trump et s." My God, they must have heard the trumpets clean past Transcona tonight with that speech . And he said -- did he say that the government doesn't like the mayor ? I didn't hear him say that, no . I hope he didn't say it . But, Mr . Speaker , I rose to my feet the other day on the meat boycott issue and I in my remarks said that the people of rural Manitoba are willing to stand shoulder to shoulder with our urban friends at any time to meet the challenges and the issues of the day that are to move this province forward.

So, Mr . Speaker, in Bi ll 21 I give you the support of the people of my constituency to meet this issue and I support the bill most wholeheartedly . And I'll give you the reasons, Mr . Speaker. The First Mini ster of this province has made speeches outside this House and said he supports it, and who can quarrel with the First Minister ? The First Minister says he supports the bill and the First Minister is an honourable man .

The Mayor has been out in my constituen cy from time to time and has helped us with some of the problems in rural Manito ba, and we 're prepared to come in and offer our advice to the Honourable the House Leader - and I don't think he's going to take it - but neverthele ss, electing a mayor at large, not only in Winnipeg. The philosophy , as I support in this bill, is that they elect their own mayor all over this province - all over this province. And, Mr .

Speaker , don't let the Honourable the House , or the Acting Premier - I don't know what his capacity is tonight - stand up and tell me that he can deny the people of this province that rig ht. I hope that this government does not stand up on this bill and deny the people of this province the right to elect their own mayor because if you are, that 's the mo �t regressive step that Manitoba has had for a hundred years of its hi story . We 've always' had that rig ht. Mr . Speaker , if this government or --(Interjectio n)- - the Premier ? No, Mr. Speaker, as I understand , the Premier is with us .

A ME M BE R: Oh yes . MR . McKENZI E: He's supporting us, and the Member for Rupertsland. But there's some problems over there , and I know where they are . It's not the Member for St . Boniface, no . It 's not the Member for Burrows, no . It 's not the Member for Ste . Rose . Then I get lost. From there on I get lost . Who supports wh at? MR . SPEAKE R : Order, please . MR. McKENZ IE: Mr . Speaker, this is a real gut issue - coming into an election year . The Mem ber for St .

Allard, or for Rupertsland, pardon me, the Member for Rupertsland tells me that he has in his possession 4, 750 letter s, 4, 750 letters with some 9, 300 signatures . Now that's pretty important. --(InterjeCtion)-- Have you got as many opposed to that ? Have you got any letters in your pockets in opposition to this bi ll ? Have any of you members over there got one or two letters or even ten letters in your pocket opposing? The Honourable

April 12 , 1973 1703 BILL 21 (MR . McKENZIE cont 'd) ..... Member for Rupertsland tells me that he 's got 4, 750 letters in support of that bi ll, with some 9, 300 signatures . --(Interjection)-- Well I think it's the duty of the members of this House to move that bill to committee as fast as we possibly can. Le t's get it over into the committee room and let the people make the decision . Let the people . - (Interjection) -- No, they won't . Mr . Speaker, this philosophy of this government - you kno w, big government can do things better than people . They don't understand what the people want.

Big government with the socialist philosophy, the old steamrollers I could spot this afternoon, Mr . Speaker , in the debate about the problems of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation. We saw it. We saw it . The big steamroller government rolling over the people of this province said "No ill will, " and this is going to happen in this bill . Mr. Speaker , no doubt somebody's going to get blamed for stalling with this bill , and I heard the Honourable House Leader espous ing, was it this afternoon, about stalling, yes.

In one of the matters he said red herrings or stalling tactics from over there . --(Interjection) -- We ll, be very careful who you accuse of stalling in thi s House because I guarantee that on this issue we 're not stalling. We'd like to move it to Committee as fast as we possibly can. I recall, Mr . Speaker , the Honourable Member for Portage introducing this bill one year ago. I also recall the debates on the Unicity bi ll where the op position warned the govern ment of some of the problems that they were going to have to legislation. If my memory serves me correctly , Mr .

Speaker, the government agreed that there would be certain problems with , the Unicity legislation. As many amendments as we could bring in the Law Amendments there, some were passed,some were not passed, that the government agreed that there was going to be some problems . Here is a real problem . And that's denying the people of the city their democratic rights . And are you as a government going to stand up and deny the people of the City of Winnipeg their democratic rights ? Are you going to deny the people of the Town of Roblin the right to elect their own mayor ?

Or the people of Grandview the right to elect their own mayor ? Are you going to deny the people of Roblin the right to elect their own mayor ? Are you going to --(Interjec tion)-- Mr . Speaker , no . They 're going to do it like they did with the Guidelines or the old manifesto . I read that manifesto, that's a skillful document. Where they 're talking about municipal corporations where the Minister will appoint the mayor . - (Interjection)-- Yah . Read the manifesto . The one that they cooked up in Brandon. What a beautiful document . What a beautif ul document.

Where in a municipal corporation structure the mayor will very skillfully -- because the people haven't got the wi sdom to elect their own councillors out in rural Manito ba, the Minister will look after it . So you can see the reflection in the thinking of this government when they try to deal with a simple little bill like this that asks for the City of Winnipeg the right to elect their own mayor . And my gosh, Mr .

Speaker, I hope we never see the day in this province, ever , that the people of the City of Winnipeg are denied the right b elect their own mayor , or the people in Roblin are denied the right to elect their own mayor , or Grandview or any place in this province . Mr . Speaker , I support the bill most wholeheartedly, all the people in my constituency support that kind of democracy. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Education . MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr . Speaker , listening to the Honourable Member for Roblin was most interesting and amusing .

In fact, during the first part of his speech I wasn't quite sure whether he was debating the bill or whether he was campaigning for the re-.election of the present mayor , and it puzzled me somewhat because I'm not really aware of any mayoralty election being on at the present time . In fact if the honourable member would read the - (Interjection)-- Well , I wasn't aware of the fact that Lhe Honourable Member of Roblin has such powers that he can call the election of a mayor at wiil, at any time he chooses.

But -- well , however, I believe, Mr ; Speaker, that that is about all the comment that the remarks of the previous speaker deserve . It 's rather --(Interjec:;i,on)-- If the Honourable Member for Thompson had been listening to the Honourable Minister of Lab our carefully , and it's very interesting, Mr . Speaker, because during his closing remarks he did indicate, he did indicate his position on thi s bill , but obviously it just went rigM past the honourable member 's ears and --(Interjection)-- It probably is, it probably is . Well, Mr .

Speaker, since the enactment of the legislation creating the present structure of the City of Winnipeg, we have brought in a bill making certain amendments to it and it may well be that during this session we 'll bring in another bill making further a::nendments to it . --(Interjection) -- The other Minister ...

17 04 BILL 21 MR . SP EAKER: Order , please . Order, please . April 12 , 1973 MR . HA NUSC HAK: The other Minist er , Mr . Speaker, made no reference to this particular fact at all , none at all. None at all . Mr. Speaker , if you would examine the bill passed during the last se ssion of this House you will find that the amendments that were in - troduced and passed, which are now law , were those of a housekeeping nature , clarifying certain anomali es, ambiguitie s, omissio ns, of a technical nature .

They're amendments which are des igned to assist the City Council in going about their job performing, di scharging their resp onsibilities in a more effective and efficient manner . And , Mr . Speaker , there 's nothing unusual . As I've said before , it's quite conceivable that another bill dealing wi th amendments of a similar type will be introduced during this session because as the activities of the council proceed now into another year of operatio n , from time to time different problems do arise and Council becomes aware of need for further amendme nts .

In the provinces' dealings with the City , from time to time again the need becomes apparent for making certain amendme nts , again to streamline the operations as between the Cit y and the Pr ovince of Manitoba. Then of course , Mr . Speaker , if you read the present legislation, and it does specifically state the term of council , and course co upled with that , of the mayor , and this was for a very very definite and a specif ic reason. And the reason for it was , Mr .

Speaker , to give both the City and the Province an opportunity to - it's a trial period , it 's a new concept, a new system of government that we had introduced, a system of urban government which we are proud to say that we have pioneered because there is none other like it in the whole North America n continent or perhaps anywhere in the world. Therefore , Mr .

Speaker , we are very co ncerned that the government of the City of Winnipeg grows and develops in an- orderly and systematic manner , that we do not just sim ply pick on single issues as the Honourable Member for Ruperts land did in his bill and -- (lnterjec tion)-- MR. SP EAKER: Order , plea se . Order , please . MR . HA NUSCHAK: I believe , Mr . Speaker , that the Honourable Member for Rupertsland did speak when he introduced the bill - I think, I think; I would check the journals but I' m sure - the Votes and Proceedings - I'm sure of this. He mumble s, he mumbles -- (lnterjectio n)- Mr .

Speaker , apparently the honourable member even de spite the fact .!le 's been in the House for - ·how many years ? he still doe sn't know the rule s. He doesn't know one of the basi c rules of this Ho use . That one must stand when he speaks. -- (lnterjecti on)-- MR . SP EAKER: Order please. MR . HA NUSCHAK : Well, Mr.

Speaker , as I mentio ned a moment ago, we did introduce amendments of a housekeep ing tidying up type , but any amendments of more substantive nature dealing with the admini strative structure of the organization of the government of the City of Winnipe g, dealing with the matter of electio ns, dealing: with the matter of powers of a co uncil , dealing with the matter of powers of its various committee s, the executive policy committee , standing committee s, community co mmittee s, to deal with that , Mr . Speaker,! believe that we ought to give the Cit y of Winnipeg a fair chance .

Give them an opportunity , not on the basis of one year , or a year and a fraction, but give them the opportunity , give them the time , the period that was assu red them in legislat ion , and then at that time, Mr . Speaker, would be the proper time to re -examine , to re -examine not only the matter of elec tion of mayor , not only the question of power s -- (Interjectio n)-- the Honourable Member for Birtle-R uss ell, he wis hes to make a co ntribution to the debate ? MR . GRAH AM: In due time A MEMBER: He 'll be a hit if he does make a contributio n . -- (Interjection) - MR . SP EAKER: Order, please . MR .

HANU SCHAK: Perhaps , Mr. Speak er, I should not hold my breath waiting for the honourable member to make his co ntribution . But there will be a time , there will be a time , Mr . Speaker, to deal with amendments of a substantive nature governing the - related to the operations of a co uncil of the City of Winnipeg and not in a piecemeal fashion such as the Honourable Member for Rupertsland suggests. I don't feel, Mr .

Speaker , that you can deal with this issu e of election of mayor in · iso lation , that you can just lift it out, set it se parate and apart from the -'-- (lnterjec tio n)- obviously the Member for -- (Interjectio n)-- no, no, :io , no, the other one , Sturgeo n Creek - the Honourable Member for St urgeon Creek in his years on co unci l, I believe that he did sit on the council of the suburban municip ality , right, and . . .

April 12, 1973 1705 BILL 21 MR . SPEAKER: Order please. The hour of 10 :00 o'clock having arrived ... Order, please . The hour of 10 :00 o'clock having arrived, the House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until 10:00 A. M . tomorrow morning.

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-5-61
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 5th hansardpdf 61.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	891da118e52c1f1998c190f9d53c7e29c770aef3

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