Volume XL Wednesday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Third Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas . Number 58 10 June 1987

The House met at 3:00p.m . 1'-1 R . S P E A K E R ( M c N i c h o 1 as ) : OrdE!r, please! Oral Questions MR. SPEAKER : ThE! hon . the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I do not see Social Services seat today. AN HON. MEMBER: the (Mr. "He is out of town . MR. EFFOIW : Minist.E!r of Brett) in his He is out of town. That is finE! . I wi11 direct my question to thE! Premier.

I ask the Premier, :in light of a11 thE! probJ.E!lns that have taken place and the fact that E!Very women's organziation in this Province has condemned the Minister of Social Services for his outrageous opinion on the working parents of this Provice, and the Premier has heard some of his own cabinet ministers condE!mn thE!Se optnions, and he knows that the minister holding those views on chtld care and young offE.~nders cannot properly or responsibly discharge his particular duties under the Social Services portfolto, has the Premier asked thE! ministE!r to r'esign, sinCE! aJ.l of these thtngs have come to J.ight, and if he has not, will hE! do it now?

MR. SPt:AKER : The hon . the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: L3084 JunE! 10, 1987 Vol XL No, Mr. Speaker . MR. t:FFORD: Mr. SpE!aker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to say to the Premier that we are speaking for everybody in this ProvinCE!, not. only women's organizations but also al1 parents in the Province, and we• arE• gi:dng to continually ask the questton until we get some satisfaction.

I ask the Premier how can he tolerate in the portfolio of Social Services a minister whose expressed viE!WS are so cornplE!tE!ly hostile to the people he is supposE!d to service? How can the• Premier leave in Cabinet a minister whose views on the concerns of working mothers are publicly condE!rnned even by SE!nior members of his Cabinet? MR. J. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : A point of order, the hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. J.

CARTER: It is quite obvious to me and it is quite obvious to anyone on this side that the hon. member is reading and not even doing a VE!ry good job of reading his question. It was obviously writlE!n for him and I would suspect that he is rE!ading it now for thE! first time. Is this proper conduct? Is this allowed? Is QuesU .on Period just a matter of rE!ading, parroting off some text that some dreary assistant has gotten ready for you? No. 58 R3084

MR. SPEAKER: To .that point of order, I have mentioned on a number of occasions that questions and answers should be as brief as possible. There is no point of order. The hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. ~3peaker, my question was very brief. I askE!d thE! PremiE!r VE!ry simply how can he tolerate and accept thE!

MinistE!r of Social Services in his Cabinet when already several of his own Cabinet Ministers have expressed the view that thE!Y do not. agrE!e with the Minister of Social Services and they think that E!Very statemE!nt that the Minister of Social Services made last week was totally wrong and opposite to government views? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: ·M-~·-speakE!r, the issue of day care and homemaker services is in recognizing the reality of the population of the Province whereby, over the last seven or eight years, the increase in the labour forcE! of 2 5, 000 people means 21,000 females entering the work force and 4,000 males. In response to that fundamental reality, and that is the issue we are dealing with, the issue is are we rE!Sponding to what is the reality out there in the labour force today.

We have increased the budget of the Department of Social Services from $45 million to $111 million, we have increased day care • from $3 50,000 to $650,000, and we have increased our funding to transition houses - we are the government and the party that introduced funding for L3085 June 10, 1987 Uol XL transition houses $381,000. Those Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

E .. 8JMIEF_~ECKrO.!~D: -from are thE! zero to isSUE!S, If those are the issues that ar€~ important to the hon. member, I say to him that WE! h,:lVE! rE!Sponded to those issues and we will continue to respond to those issues to ensure that we provide as much money as is possible. As a matter of fact, it would be difficult to find other programmes in government that have increased their budgets as much as they have increased in the day care home,maker -transition house area, as well as in affirmative action, rna t.rimonial property rights and the like.

And just in the last couple of weeks we have opened the first day care centre rtght here in this Confederation Complex. So our record is cleat", our policy is clear and we intend to expand in those arE!aS and all others to ensure that the fundamental reality, the demographics of our labour force are recognized by gouernrnE!nt. We do have a responsibility and we will carry out that responsibility in the most eloquent way possible, and that eloquent way possiblE! is to put more money into these programmE!S to E!nsurE! that WE! are' doing a good job for all the people of the Province. MR.

EFFORD: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, Premie'r, he No. 58 let me cannot say keep to the skating R3085

around the answer. that we are looking resignation of the Social Services. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. EFFORD : The ansWE!r for is the Minister of Le t me ask the Premier how can he explain when he said two days ago in the House of Assembly, that this government takes a back seat to nobody when it comes to day care services in Canada, while all statistics prove very clearly that Newfoundland ranks number ten in Canada in the amount of money that it puts into day care services? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, one cannot look at the absolutes of money, because one has to look at the relevant issue in each jurisdiction. Based upon our ability to pay, based upon the needs that have come forward in the last number of years, we have responded and we have increased the budgets of day care and homemaker services, transition houses. and so on, by 100 and 110 and 120 per CE!nt. My point is that we are responding to it. It is not an issue of an individual, but an issue of whether we are responding to it, and, Mr.

Speaker, we are responding to it and we arE! providing additional funds for all the areas that are important to ensure that what is happening out there in society at large is being responded to in a socially progressive way by this government. We are doing that, we will continue to do it, and we will continue to expand those services to ensure that we are responding in an effective manner. L3086 JunE! 10, 1987 Vol XL MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the LeadE!r of thE! Opposition. MR. SIMMONS: I had not intended to rise on this matter, but t.hE!

PremiE!r in giving the answers that he gave on Monday and his colleagues haVE! giVE!n in the last week, must realtze that thE!Se arE! not the issues. There is no dispute about the amount the governmE!nt is spE!nding. That is on the public record. If the Premier wants to finger what is the issue - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, what is in dispute is the propriety of the continuance in Cabinet of the Minister of Social Services. That, I say to the Premier, is the issue.

Will he indicate to the House if he finds the minister's continuance in Cabinet under the circumstances to be improper and, if so, what stE!pS he intE!nds to takE! to address it? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I disagree with the Leader of the Opposition. The issue is whether we are dealing with the women of this Province in a responsible, effective manner. That is the issue. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD : Is this government what is happening No. 58 responding to in the labour R3086

force, what is happening in society at large•? Are we responding by trying to provide more day care services? Answer: Yes, with a 100 per cent increase over the last several years. Are we responding on homemaker services? Are we responding on affirmative action? Are we responding in transition houses? To 1:hose thing t:hat matter, are we responding? The answer to that is we are increasing the btJdgets of all those areas every single year . That is the is sue . Are we doing a good job on responding to social concerns in society at large? My answer to that is an unqualified yes. We need to do more.

We will try to do more. Mr. Speaker, we are increasing the budgets for those areas quicker and in a larger percentagewise that in other areas of government. Therefore, if you look at the totality of government services, we are doing more in those areas than WE! arE! doing in other arE!aS. The other people who are in those other arE!as could easily complain that they are being somehow sacrificed for these new areas. We will defend what we have done, and we will say that we have a lot of catching up to do in making women equal partners in the whole of society and the work force.

We have morE! war k to do, and we intend to do it, Mr. Speaker. That, in our view, on this side of the House, is the issue. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: ThE! han. the mE!mber for Twillingate . L3087 June 10, 1987 Vol XL MR. W. CARTER: My question is to the hon. t.hE! Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout).

With this year's inshore ground fishery, especially on the Northeast Coast, getting off to a very slow start, indeed in most parts of the areas affected there has been practically no groundfish landed at all so far, and with Unemployment Insurance Benefits having been discontinued on May lS, will the minister tell the House if he has taken steps to ask Ottawa to maybe extend the Unemployment Insurance Benefits to help the affected fishermen over this slack period? MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. SpeakE!r. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: No, Mr.

Speaker, we have not asked for an extension of the UIC programme so far this year. MR. W. CARTER: A supplementary . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: han. the Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that this is a VE!ry SE!d.ous problem, in fact one that does exist, will the minis ter undertake to contact his federal counterpart with a view to having some kind of assistance made available to fishermE!n? And will he also, Mr.

Speaker, then again make further representation to the federal government to resolve the anomaly with respect to unemployment insurance to fishermen whereby it is discontinued on May 15 No. 58 R3087

irregardles s of the state of thE! fishery? Will he inequity removed as getting some temporary now when it is need? MR. RIDEOUT: Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: have that weJ.l as assistance The han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR . RIDEOUT: Mr . SpeakE!r, first of all we haVE! made representation in the past and wilJ. do so again on correcting the anomaly. There is no doubt about that. It has beE!n unanimously the position, I suppose, of aJ.J. people in this House, that the arbitrary May 15 cut-off of UIC for aJ.l of Newfoundland and Labrador is not an equitable programme.

We have done that in the past and we will do it again. In terms of the first part of thE! hon. gentleman•s question, we have had some discussion over the last day or so along the lines of making the kind of request that he has been referring to. And I hope we would have that finalized very shortly and will in fact be so doing . MR . K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD : Thank you. I have a question for the Premier and it concerns youth unemployment.

I posed a question yesterday to the Deputy Premier who told me to go back and look through some programmes that your L3088 June 10, 1987 Vol XL goVE!rnment has . I would likE! to ask the Premier, besides the great numbE!r of programmE!S you now haVE! out there that are tackling the problem, sinCE! youth unemploymE!nt officially is only about 40 per cent, could you tell us if you have any other plans in mind to tackle the problem that is out there, which is presently going up and has increased 11 per cent since you took over? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, we are doing all we can as it relates to youth unemployment in a whole range of areas. I think one of the keys to employment generally. and youth unemployment, is in the issue of training.

We are spending I do not know how many tens of millions this year on the re-organization of our whole post-secondary education system, especially as it relates to what were traditiona1ly calJ.ed the vocational schools, combining them into community colleges to provide more up ·-to-date courses for students so that the courses that they do take give then a greater chance of getting a job afterwards than some of the courses that have traditionally bE!en offE!red.

So I think the wholE! educational syst:em is being revolutionized over the next year or two to try to respond to it, and I think that is more the long-term answer than any short-te!rm things we can do, Mr. Speaker. Secondly, of course, as the hon . member has acknowledged, there are a J.ot of programrnE!S now in plaCE! which are attempting to res pond to that very difficult problem in the area of the job creation, projects through the various departments No. 58 R3088

where are a lot of youth will get a chance to have employment opportunities during the Summer, through our private sector employment initiatiVE!S, which have been very well received, and we will, over thE! next number of weeks, be announcing hundreds and hundreds of more jobs, many of which will .go to the youth of the Province. But the long-term answer is a more responsive education system. We are working, therefore, both on the short-term, through our job crE!ation initiatives this year, and in the long-·tE!rm~ through a rE!Volution in the post-secondary educational institutions of the Province. MR. K.

AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplE!mE!ntary, the hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD : Mr. SpE!aker, I suggest to thE! Premier thr?.re will be a revolution aJ.l right, but I do not think he is going ·to like it, because the job that you have been doing on tackling the youth unemployment problE!m is one that thE! people of this Province are not too pleased with. Since he talks about these great programmes I most of them Liberal thoughts from this side that we have given him over the last twelve years, by the way - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. K.

AYLWARD : would you consider doing what the Nova Scotia government did to tackle their probJ.em of youth unemployment when Nova Scotia set up a youth initiatives office in all different parts of that province to give career L3089 June 10, 1987 Vol XL counselling to young people all over the Province of Nova Scotia? Nova Scotia is just across the water over there, it is not up in Ontario. Would you consider an initiative such as that that could help tackle the youth unemployment problem instead of the 11 per cent increase that has happened whiJ.e you have headed your administration? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, we are willing to accept ideas from anywhere . Where they come from does not make any differenCE! to us as long as they are sound and reasonable. I think what the hon. member is refE!rring to is what we are now setting up through the reorganization of thE! vocational schools, because we will be providing a far better counselling service, through the new post-secondary re1Jolution that I talked about, than doing it on an ad hoc basis J.ike they are doing in Nova Scotia. It is better to do it on a longer tE!rrn basis.

That is what the whole reorganization of the post-secondary institutions are suppoSE!d to do. For example I Mr. SpeakE!r, in a Jot of that reorganization there is the requirement for enlarged libraries and counselling services in aJ.J. the community colJ.egE!S. That is where we hav1?. to get the young people. As they graduate from high school we have got to get . them into programmes and ge ~t them into an educational system which wiJ.l advance beyond the high school certificate level to that 1E!Ve1 where they can get a tradE! No . S 8 R3089

or can get some counselling and get into the work force through that procedure. So rather than doing that on an ad hoc basis, we are doing it on a more organize:~d long term basis. Whilst we t..uill have to watch and see what. Nova Scotia does, we believe that our approach to the system is far morE! to the corE! of things, not just dealing with the surface. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Premier about a more insidious use of the few, and I reiterate the few, student jobs that have beE!n created.

Specifically, Mr. Speaker, Catamaran Park is located next to Badger. It is a major contributor to the economy of thE! town of Badger. It is seem, and rightly so, as a source of employment for students or other people of Badger. Yet with ten jobs created at Catamaran Park, not one job went to Badger. Why is the Premier allowing his ministers to turn his Summer employment programmes into vehicles for blatant political patronage? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. SpeakE!r, I do not know.

I am not familiar with the situation at L3090 JunE! 10, 1987 Vol XL Catamaran Park at all. I would have to fi-nd out. I would have to ask such questions as where did the applications come from, were thE!re a massive number of applications from the Badger area, were there applications from the Millertown -- Buchans area, and were there applications from other communities that are near Catamaran Park. I guess whatever applications were in the department would have to choose from those applications.

So I do not know if the hon. member has at his disposal information which would indicate that there were ten or fifteen or twenty or thirty applications in from Badger for those jobs. That would have to be one of the questions. But I have not got all of the information here at my fingertips. I will try to get it for the hon. member in the next couple of days, and then respond t.o him in a more specific manner. But for him to make a charge or to allege that certain things were done wrongly without giving me all the information leaves me at a decided disadvantage.

I would like to know how many youths from Badger appl:ied, how many from Millertown applied, how many from Buchans, how many from Grand Falls, how many from Windsor, in the hon. member 1 s district, and then on the basis of that and other such relevant information I would be ablE! to makE! a j udge!lnent as to whether the things were handled properly or not. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the member for Windsor - Buchans . MR. FLIGHT: No. 58 R3090

M r . Speaker , I wo u 1 d 1 i k e to , very quickly, give the Premier some! of the information. I can tell him that there arE! tWE!nty-five or thirty needy students from Badger, young men and women form lower income families, and wherever the applications came from certainly a lot came from Badger and I am aware of those applications. But the ten jobs were designated for one community in Newfoundland, for Grand Falls, which is in the district of the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Simms). MaybE! the Premier is right.

He intimated that maybe there was no political interference or patronage involved, but would the PrE!mier tell me what possible criteria could be 11sed that saw ten jobs cre!ated at Catamaran Park and not one of those jobs going to the town of Badger? Now, what possible criteria could have been used for that to have happened? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I just have some information here which might help the situation.

Projects are handled by the Parks Division of the Department of Culture, Recreation and Youth as part of a provincial parks e1nployrnent programme designed to improve the parks. Two hundred and twenty-five people have been hired in thirty-five parks all over the Province. People from all OVE!r our Province are! eligible, such as at Wooddale Nursery in Grand FaJ.ls, where there are people from Windsor, Bishop Falls and Norris Arm working, for example.

Positions have been filled by unemployed people who had applied for these L3091 June 10, 1987 Vol XL special parks projects and all fit eligibility oriteria, because 40 per cent of those employed must be under tWE!nty--five, not nE!Cessarily students but under twenty-five. ThE! ministe!r has inforrne!d lriE! that he received no representations from the member for Windsor Buchans at all for these special provind.al job crE!at:Lon projects . That .is the information I have right now, so I will have to gE!t more to respond to the han. member. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR.

FLIGHT: Mr. SpE!aker, I realiZE! onE! has to be relevant here but the Premier has suggest.ed things that I would be tempted to respond to in a third .supplementary but I am surE! the Speaker would stop me, as he so should do. I suggE!St to thE! Premier that we have seen in this Province many demonstrations against many polic:ies of this administration, and now we SE!E! students, needy, unE:~mployed students and young people, having to demonstrate against what is perceived as summer employment programmes being used for political patronagE!. So I ask thE!

Premier what advice does he have for the students of Badger who demonstrated yesterday and are demonstrating at Catamaran Park to support their rights to some of those jobs at Catamaran Park? What advice does he have for them? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: No. 58 R3091

Mr. Speaker, I am not here to give advice to anybody, I am here to answer questions that relate to government policy. All I can say to the han. member is I do not:. have a11 the information. It seems to me, Mr.

Speaker, what the han. member for Windsor-Buchans does almost every year is not to be on to his cons ti tUE!ncy and ensure that students got applications in for all of the opportunities that are going to come up this Spring, he refuses to do that, he waits until the worst happens, and then comes in this House of Assembly to try to make a po1icy football out of it and get his name in the paper, in The Grand Fal1s Aduertiser and on TV tontgh{: so that he can then proud1y boast to the people of Windsor-Buchans that he is representing thE!m well in the House of Assembly. MR. FUREY : Mr . Speaker . MR .

SPEAKER: The han. th ·e member for St. Barbe . MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, I haVE! a question for the Premier. If you check with the Newfoundland Statistics Agency you will find out that since 1979, when the Premier and his Administration carne to power, 25,000 people have left this Province, which is the population of the enU.re City of Corner Brook. Can the Premier tell this House and the people of this Province how we have reached this crisis of out migration, many of them young people, since he has come to power?

How is it that since he has come to power 25,000 Newfound1anders and Labradorians have left their homes? MR. SPEAKER: L3092 June 10, 1987 Vo1 XL The han. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: I have to say it oncE! again, that that. is a question which isolates the facts to the advantagE! of thE! hon. member.

One would have to look at thE! out. migration of Newfoundlanders ever since 1900 or 1920 or 1930, 1940, up through the Smallwood years, from 1949 to 1971, in order to weigh whether in fact the out migration during the last period of U.me, in the period of years from 1979 to 1985 or 1986 or 1987, is any diffE!rE!nt than or better than or worse than the out migration before in order to make a value judgement on this administration and its job to try to create more jobs in the Province. One cannot do it in isolation.

And I really am disappointed in the han. member, because he usually asks good questions, for him to try to isolate one particular group of facts to prove his own point without looking at · the totality of the situation, and thE!n making the reference or the comparison, because then he• might have a legittmate question and built into his question a legitimate allegation. MR. FUREY : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. Barbe . MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, the PrE!miE!r commissioned a study on unemployment in this Province, which cost nearly $3 million.

Now if he read that. study hE! will see• that Recommendation No. 105 states, 11 Both federal and provincial funding for youth employment programmE!S ... should bE! increased substantially. 11 Why has No. 58 R3092

the Premier ignored this recommendation of a Royal Commission which cost nearly $3 million which could have kept some of our young people home? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: A well read question, Mr. Speaker, by the hon. member. We are responding to what the Royal Commission has to say. Do not isolate one rE!COmmE!ndation of the Royal Commission. They also went on to suggest changes in our post-secondary educational sys tern, which is at the heart, in many ways, of our youth unemployment problem. And as I answered in an earlier question today, Mr.

SpeakE!r, WE! are trying to get at the root: of the problem, and that is to improve and changE! thE! educational system, at the primary, elementary and secondary levels as .~ell as at: the post--secondary lE!Vel, becaUSE! that. is where the core of the problem exists and that is what we must try to change as it relates to the drop-out r"ate and so on. We must get at the core of the problems, and that is the core of the problem, the educational institutions of our Province, if we are truly to make significant gains in lowering not only youth unemployment but latterly unemployment generalJ.y.

We are in the short term introducing programmes, as I indicated, through the parks and Fisheries, through RuraJ. Development and so on. Hundreds and hundreds of new jobs have been created in the last couple of months, and hundreds and hundrE!dS more wi11 be creatE!d in the next few months. And on the L3093 JunE! 10, 1987 Vol XL private sector programme, we are trying to encourage ernployE!rS who participate in that programme, and thE!Y are being very responsiVE!, to ensure that they hire a significant percentage of youth in those jobs that are to be created.

So we are trying to tackle the long term through our educationaJ. system and we arE! trying to attack the short term in the crE!ation of new jobs through the programmes I just mentioned. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : A final supplementary. MR. FUREY: Mr. SpeakE!r, Dr. House thought t hat t hi s pro b 1 em t.ua s s i g n if i c a n t enough to isolate· it. In fact, there are only a handful of recommendations that he talks about in terms of youth and unemployment. One of those was Recommendation 105, the other is RecommE!ndation 112, which taJ.ks about the establishment of businE!Sses for young peopJ.e.

ThE! Premier, Mr. Speaker, can stand there and waltz around the question until the cows come home, but the fact of the matter is that an awful lot of young people have left while he has held the rE!ins of power. What are you going to do about it? And what do you say to those young people in Calgary who said to you, when can WE! comE· home? PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I noU.ce in thE! han. member 1 s question that he has not No. !>8 R3093

acknowledged the fact that we have this year set up a new Youth Entrepreneurship Programme to respond directly to the Royal Commission's report. The Development Corporation, which comes under the Department of Development, has now in place a Youth Entrepreneurship Programme for thE! youth of the Province to participate in, to go to the Development Corporation, sit down and discuss their idea, and there might be equity contributions from the Development Corporation for young pE!Ople who has that idea to get them off the ground, and to provide them with some money to start new businesses.

So in the very area that the hon. member just mentioned - I do not know if he rE!ad the Budget Speech or has listened to what is going on around the ProvincE! -· there is in place right now a brand new Youth Entrepreneurship Programme to respond directly to that particular recommendation by Dr. House in his report, Mr. Speaker. So we are responding directly to what the Royal Commission said. There is today in existence in Newfoundland a Youth Entrepreneurship Programme. Additionally, we are revolutizing post-secondary institutions to make thE!m more responsive and provide more counselling, more training, Mr.

Speaker, than ever before in the his tory of the Province. On the short term we are bringing in the programmes through parks, through Fisheries, through Rural Development, and on our private sector programme, 40 per cent youth must be hired. So we ar'E! responding on all fronts, Mr. Speaker, to youth unemployment. I would ask he please, interested the hon. member would if he is that in youth getting L3094 June 10, 1987 Vol XL involved in business, sit down with the Development Corporation and understand that new Youth Entre!preneurship ProgrammE! which has been launched as of April 1 this year. MR. DECKER: Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premter. One of the problems v.Jith youth unE!mployment relates to training, and I talk about the trades especially, Mr. Speaker, for example, where an apprentice carpenter cannot become a journeyman because he cannot get his work experience, a navigator cannot get sea time. I ask the Premier, what solutions is hE! offering so that young people can finish their trades rather than remain apprE!ntices ail their lives?

Surely the Premier realizes we have enough unemployed apprentices in this Province. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker', I tJJas very proud yesterday to see some of thE! people that the hon. member mentioned, apprentices and the like, on the Come By Chance site working. There are 420 or 430 out there - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: - and 98 or 99 per are Newfoundlanders, in the apprentice No. 58 cent of them a lot of them field. As a R3094

matter, in a certain component of that refinery which was supposed to be torn down, i:hat Liberal white elephant which has now become a P. C. success, they have developed a number of innovative \JJays to do things out there which otherwise would have cost the company a lot of money, and a lot of good, young Newfoundlanders are working. What we have to do is create more opportunities like that in the Province.

There is a responsibiJ.ity upon the government and upon the private sector and the society as a whole to creatE! more and more opportunities so that thE!Y wi 11 have the work experience, so they can get on to their nE!Xt stage, j ournE!yman and so on. That is what we have to do. That is we arE! doing. We are doing t t in St. Lawrence. We are doing it. in Baie Verte. We have done it with the Kruger mill in Corner Brook which Bowaters were supposed to close down. We are doing it all over. We are doing it at Hope Brook. There are young NewfoundlandE!rs who have trades who are working there.

Now we have got to do it with small and medium sized business, Mr. Speaker, through the Youth Entrepreneur Programme or whatever. So, Mr. Speaker, we are responding to that problE!m, and it is a response of creating more opportunity so that there therefore those opportunities are available for those young people to become more than just apprentices in their trade. MR. DECKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: ThE! han. the ITIE!mber for the Strait of Belle Isle, a supplementary. MR. DECKER: L309S JUnE! 10, 1987 Vol XL He says it all with a straight face which 18,000 youth are sti11 unemployed. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! MR. DECKER: The hon. Premier r·emtnded the member for Windsor -Buchans that he did not go to the MinistE!r of Forest Resources and Lands for jobs for his constituents. I ask thE! PrE!mier, in thE! futurE! should applications made by the youth of this ProvinCE! for go~1ernment jobs be accompanied by a letter from the MHA, and if the sitting MHA happened to be a Liber~al, does the Premier think thE! applicant would actually have a good chance of getting that job, or wouJ.d he suggest that he go to another MHA? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: No, Mr. Speaker.

To respond, the han. member has now changed in his supplementary to another issue rather than the one he started his original IAJith because the response on the original was too good to suit him, and he could not continue so he had to go to another issUE!. That is fine. I will take him on on this issue too, even though it is really irrelE!Vant and out of order for a supplementary to be on another subject. But, Mr. SpE!aker, just let me respond to the hon. gE!ntleman just the samE!.

What I said was if the hon. member was doing his work as a representative of Windsor -Buchans, he would be out to all of the communities with letters and with his own personal representation physically to ensure that the young people out there knew the avenues through which they could quite possibly No. 58 R3095

and quite probably find jobs and have applications in to all of the various agencies which are going to be creating youth employment this Summer, Mr. Speaker. That is what. I arn saying, that thE! mE!mber himself has a responsibility, as dOE!S thE! hon. member from the Great Northern Peninsula, as a rnerr1ber of this House to make representation and to push for people from his district to be hired and to get as many jobs as he can gE!t, not that it is necessary for a politician to have his name attached to any youth appLication on any progr·amme.

But we all understand in this House that if we are here as members representing a constituency we must represent the youth as well the agE!d, uJe must represent a11, and therefor·e the lack of represent:at.ion by the hon. membe!r tells me something, that the han. member is speaking in a VE!ry hollow way. One would think that the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands would have been deluged with letters from the member for Windsor - Buchans supporting job activiU.es in his constituency for the Summer so that youth could get jobs.

One wouJ.d think that that is a legitimate role for a member of the House of Assembly to play and I am sorry to think that there are members who are not taking that kind of initiative. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. MR. FLIGHT: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han . the member for Windsor- Buchans. L3096 June 10, 1987 Vol XL MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, Hansard wi11 show that in answering my third qUE!Stion thE! PrE!mier accused mE! of creating situations in my distr-ict and thE!n turning thE!m into a political football.

So I would just J.ike, Mr. SpeakE!r, to set thE! record straight. Number one, I would tell the Premier that at J.east a week and a half ago, I called the deputy minister - PREMIER PECKFORD: That was a week and a half ago. MR. FLIGHT: A week and a half ago, Mr . Speaker, - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I called the Deputy Minister of Recreation and tried to head off the kind of situation that we have in Badger.

Does the Premier want the number of letters that I have written on behalf of thE! constituents delivered to his office today and a list of the phone caJ.ls made? But more importantly, Mr. Speaker, and to the point, having watched this han. crowd and watched this honourable ministry perform, eVE!ry time that I have had a constituent from Windsor - Buchans, whom I represent in this House of Assembly, ask me to support his application for a job, I had to make a judgment, Mr. Speaker, whether or not my supporting hirn would hurt his chances of gEd:ting that job. No. 58 R3096

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I have seen evidence that indeed it would. PREMIER PECKFORD: To that point Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! To the point of the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: of order, Mr. order, the hon. The han. member demonstrates his ignorance of the rules of this House under thE! guise of a point. of order. To get up to make a statement like that is not a point of or·der. It is a difference of opinion betweE:•n two hon. ITIE!mbers, as the han. SpeakE! r no doubt wi 11 rule in a few minutes. In the same way, Mr.

Speaker, under the guise of the House of Assembly, he gets up to make a political statement about ·thE! J.ack of jobs for youth in his district when he has not done his work in the first instance. The two of them are very similar. The hon. member, at least, is very consistent in the way he approaches things. He does nothing. A week and a half ago! A week and a half ago!

Does not everybody know that a budget comes down in March, and that during the Winter the han. member should have bee n do i n g hi s wo r k . 0 n c e a g a i n the hon. member is showing that he is doing things under a guise for politics which he should be doing legitimately as a member. MR. SIMMONS: Let me speak to the point of order, Mr. Speaker, if I may. L3097 June 10, 1987 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: If the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Simmons) wants to make a brief comment, I would hE!ar it. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I do.

I hesitate to rise given the obvious frame of mind and hHnperament of the Premier today. H1:! seems to be under the same kind of strain he was undE1r 4:44 that morning when he was writing that Sprung statement. I do not want to do anything to aggravate his condition. But, Mr. SpE!akE!r- AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: - I rose to make a very particular point which the House needs to have its attention drawn to. The Acting Premier YE!Sterday gave the assurance to the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr.

Flight) that the applications were being considered under merit by people within the department, and that there was no political interference. The Premier, in an u nf ortuna te move for him, s 1 ipped in accusing my friend for not writing the minister. He has, by implication, told thE~ House that the way to get the jobs is not the way the minis ·ter said yesterday at all, but to cozy up to the minister, to play politics. Now, Mr. Speaker, they both cannot be right. I suspect the PremiE!r inadvertently told thE! truth today when he admitted it is aJ.l one great big political boondoggle.

PREMIER PECKFORD: To that point of order, Mr . No. 58 R3097

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point the Premier. the Premier. of order, t.he han. A brief comrnen t by PREMIER PECKFORD: Number one, I know the in-House Leader of the Liberal Party had to get up to try to defend his member who has done a terrible job on Question Period. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). PREMIER PECKFORD: I know and understand that . is part of the game. That Let me just say, Mr. Speaker, in response to thE! specious point of order raised by the member for Windsor - Buchans t:hat in Red Bay -- where is Red Bay? Is that in a PC district or a Tory district?

It is in a Liberal district, and twenty-six of the thirty-two jobs that are going to be created there under the programme that we have announced for Red Bay are coming from the community of Red Bay. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, Red Bay is where they are" coming from. So that just demolishes anything that is left to the han. member for Windsor Buchans. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Orde!r, pJ.easE!! I think I let that point of order develop too long. There! is obviously no point of order. L3098 June 10, 198'7 Uol XL Petitions MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a pE!tition on behalf of some forty people from the Bay St. George area. It is just a further addition, Mr. Speaker, to the number of pE!ti tions that we have been sent from all around the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador because of the recent cutbacks in the Department of Social Services. Mr. Speaker, we want to tell the present administration very clearly that as long as it takes us on this side of this House to stand to our feet and try to beat the message into their so-called thick heads, we are going to do it.

If it takes six days, six months or six years, Mr. Speaker, whatever it takes, the OpposiU.on is going to keep sending t:he message until someonE! on that side, someone with some caring, someone with some responsibility for the Department of Social Services listens, Mr. Speaker, and changes some of the crazy and the stupid statements that the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Brett) has recently made, along with the recent cutbacks in t:he Department of Social Services. Mr. Speaker, whilE! thE! Premie!r is in th"i.s House of Assembly, I would like to make a couple of points.

One of them is that I am very disappointed. I have heard it. very clearly around the districts and around St. John's, all thE! No. 58 R3098

people you are talking to are also disappointed that the Premier would allow the Minister of Social Services to go up to the conference on Social Services in Nova Scotia just recently, or' just Monday, and represent this Province. What IJJe foind very strange is that thE! PremiE!r would allow the Minister of Social Service to go and rE!present this Province as Minister of Social Services where he will be presenting his views, and we say his views because, obviously, it is not the view of the Minister of Justice (Ms VergE!), it is not. the view of the Minister of Career Development and · Advanced Studies (Mr.

Power), and it. is not the view of the rest of the Cabinet, it is his own personal view that he is going to be presenting to those people. We are wondering, Mr. Speaker - I am sure we have not got t.o wonder too long ·- what kind of an imprE•ssion thE! Minister of Social Services is going to leave with the rest of thE! ministers who are a·t that particular conference in Nova Scotia.

If he E!Ven rE!peats in any way whatsoever just part of the statement that he made in this House of Assembly last week and many, many times since the HouSE! of Assembly, over the weekend to the nei.IJS media and privately, we are going to find it very s-trange that thE!

Premier of this Province can hold his head up when talking to anybody outside of this House of Assembly when it comes to the parents of the children of this Province, not only the women, but when we say parents we should remember there are a lot of single parents, male and female, who have to use the day care services in this Province, or the little day care services that are there for them. L3099 June 10, 1987 Vol XL Mr.

Speaker, getting back to thE• peti-tion and the number of people that has been laid off, therE! is now some talk and some fears among some other areas in the Department of Social Services, some of the district offices and thE! regional offices, that there may even possibly be some further cutbacks. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is something nobo dy in this Province can tolerate, any further cutbacks . We cannot even t.olE!ratE! or begin to tolerate the recent cutbacks. Mr.

Speaker, what we have to do is everybody in this Prov:ince has to send a message very loud and clear that we are not satisfied with the little amounts of rnone!y that the! Minister of Social Services and his department are placing into the day care system; we are not satisfied especially - we are not satisfied in the urban areas - but especially, Mr. Speaker, we are not satisfied in rural Newfoundland because that is where, Mr. Speaker, the Department of Social Services is really falling down on the job.

Those thirty-five jobs that were just r'ecently cutback are having a great effect on the Social Services Department thr'oughout t:he Province and especially in rural Newfoundland . Child care is really falling down. I was just talking to a social service worker in the Department in my area the other day and she was telling me there is absolutely no way, Mr. Speaker, she can handle her case load . There is no way she can give the necessary service she is supposed to do in performing her job as social worker. Now what it is doing, Mr. Speaker, is putting a strain on those people.

When anybody has a strain and has an overloaded case No. 58 R3099

load while trying to perform their duties t~hat they were so clear·ly trained to do, what we are going to see is total frustration and confusion set in. We are going to see those people, number one, not able to pE!rform their job in the tJJay they should. They are going to be so confused and frustrated, you are going to see good, qualified people leave the Department of Social Services and seek other employment. Mr. SpE!akE!r, we haVE! to keep sending this message across to the Premier and across to the Cabinet Ministers on the other side because there is no alternative.

There is definitely a major problem in the Department of Social Services, and the minister very clearly last Wednesday, Thursday and Friday and all weekend, he has told us very clearly where the problem lies. It is very, very clear that the Minister of Social Services is not competent in carrying out his duties as Minister of Social Services, and, in fact, as any minister '. He could not take any portfolio. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. EFFORD: In conclusion, Mr.

Speaker, we know of no other answer to the problem only to keep putting pressure on the Premier of this Province and the Cabinet Ministers to immediately, not tomorrow, not next week, Mr. Speaker, but immediately ask the Minister of Social Services for his r·esignation. Thank you . MR. K. AYLWARD : Mr. Speaker. L3100 June 10, 1987 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: The hon~ the membE!r for StephenuiJ.lE! . MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to support the petition so ably presE!nted by my colleague from the Port de Graue district (Mr. Efford) and I appreciate his comments on the petition.

He puts t:hE!m very weJ.l when he talks about the situation that lies out there in the Province for the people who are under the Department of SociaJ. Services, who get services from this department, who are the people who ltve day by day trying to improve themsE!lVE!S and to make a living, and who have to rely on the gouernment 1 s heart, Mr. Speaker, for a way of living and for a better way of living. It is a sad statement, Mr.

Speaker, because these people who have to rely on government funding and government money for a way of living are now seeing this government money or this government conscience or government incentive or government funding bEdng cut back by several hundred thousand dollars in the departmE!nt with the laying off of 35 people. We see this going on, Mr. Speaker, whiJ.e we see other tremE!ndous amounts of money being spent in other areas where the priority, we feel, and I feel, doe:~s not lie. Where they should be addressing the problem, they do not seem to be bothered with it. As you can see today, Mr.

Speaker, the Premier 1 s response to youth unemployment questions indicates the response of the provincial government to social issues in No. 58 R3100

this Province. We SE!e in the area that I represent, specifically the Bay St. George-Port au Port area, there is a cycle of welfare that has been created over the last ten year·s where many of the children who are raised in that cycle have not been able to break out because of thE! lack of E!mployme!nt opportunities. From the Premier 1 s response today on youth un(:~ITiployment, WE! can see that ·that cycle obviously will be allowed to continue.

We can also see, since they are going to cut back thri ty-five more positions, we can see that even the people who have to survive on social assistance and who have to survive on the Department of Social Services are going to have to survive with less. So we can see that this government is really moving ahead in dramatic steps to solve the problem, Mr. Speaker. I do not even know why we are getting up presenting petitions because everything is hanky dory out there, Mr. Speaker. There is no problem at all!

I do not even know why people are sending them to me to tell the truth because obviously there :is not a problem. We arE.~ spending $111 million and that is solving everything. I can see that. There is no problem whatsoever! There is only about twenty years or ten years of a cycle of people being brought up in a WE!lfare cycle and are never going to get out of it, but that is not a problem. That is okay! We are spending this amount of money here and that amount of money there. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! L310 1 June 10, 1987 Vol XL MR. K.

AYLWARD : So we are spending money and that problem. this amount of solves th e Well, cutting thirty-five positions does not solVE! the probJ.em, Mr·. Speaker. It takes away from solving the problem. We are trying to get the message across to the other side that they should reassess the issue, rE!assess what they have donE:~, and put those people back in there. MR. WARREN: Will you resign your seat for the new Leader? MR. K. AYLWARD : If I ever leave my seat, I wilJ . do it willingly, not be booted out on my behind, by the way. So, Mr. Speaker, I think that this government should get the message. MR.

TOBIN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. the member for Burin - Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I arn wondering if I heard the gentleman correctly. Did he say that the people on sociaJ. assistance are :in a cycle and they nE!ver get out of i i:? If he did, he should apo logiZE! to t:he families that are on social assistance. Hansard will show what he said. MR. SPEAKER : To that point of order, there is no point of order. The hon. the member for· StephenvillE! . No . 58 R3101

MR. BAIRD: Apologize! MR. K. AYLWARD : Get the Hansard. gentlemen . MR. MORGAN: Let us send out the households s hot.l.li ng what he House. the Hansard to all in Stephenville said today in the MR. K. AYLWARD: In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, the yahoos on the back over there can do what they want. I have not got a problem with that. I am going to continue to bring to this House the issue of the laying off of people in an area where they are needed more. If this government wants to make a joke about it, then go ahead because they are making a joke about everything else. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: The hon . the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: I would like to petition asking services under the Social Services. support the! for improved Department of In that re!gard, we have this year increased the budget of the Department of Social Services from $104 million last year to $111 million this year. In other words, we are going to spend $7 million more this year in the Department of Social Services than we spent last year. So, inste!ad of cutting back. tJJe are irnpr·oving L3102 June 10. 1987 Vol XL the! s:i. tuation .

If you look at Group Homes, Mr. Speaker, last year we spent $597,000, almost $600,000. lhis year we are spending $857,0UO, Mr. Speaker. We are improving the situation as it relates ·to social services all over the Province. Down through all of the budget areas, :i.f the hon. me!mbe!r wishes to look at them, he will see in the area of mental retardation, from $366,000 to $418,0000. In all that area we are• doing morE!. In Special Child Care Allowances. we are doing more; Independent Living Services, we are doing more. MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A point of order, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, we have been presenting petitions in this House for quite a while about those thirty-five layoffs. I just understood the First Minister of this Province, the Premier. to stand in his place and say that he supports the petition concerning the thirty-five layoffs and asking to have them reinstated. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. TULK: He supports the petition.

Does this now mean that we can stop presenting those petitions and that the Premier has agreed that if he will not himself rt::~inst:ate t he p o s i t ions . he wi 11 t a k e t hi s petition back to Cabinet with his full support asking that Cabinet reinstate those thirty-five social No. 58 R3102

workers or are we just hearing the Premier get up and guff off about what is in the Social Services Estimates? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is no point of order. The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I support, as I said at the beginning of my speech in response to the petition, the principle of improved services through the Department of Social Services to the people of this Province, which underlines i:he wl1ole principle of the petition presented by the hon. member.

I was just trying to indicate to members opposite that almost in every area of Social Services, right from Social Assistance right through to Work Activity Projects to get peopla off the welfare roles and into the work force, tAle are increasing our budget to these people and therefore trying to pr·ovide a better SE!rvice and more money to these people so that we can get on with doing the kinds of things that the hon. member mentioned in the body of his remarks supporting the petition. He talked about Community Development Projects, where we have another $20 million this year.

Employment enhancement initiatives, if that is not what the hon. member was talking about, I would like to know what it was. This is what we are trying to do, Mr. Speaker, throughout all of the programmes that are in the Department of Social Services. L3103 June 10, 1987 Vol XL Even in family counselling services, 11.1hich the hon. member is talking about, for individuals and families out ·thE!re who might nE!E!d some assistance and counselling services to help them, we are doing it, Mr. Speaker. Transition Houses: As WE!

ITIE!ntionE:~d today in Question Period, throughout the whole budget there! is $7 rnil11.on to do the kind of thtngs that the hon. member wants done. MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo on a point of order. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I hate to interrupt the Premier in his listing of the social services estimates but the petition is very clear, I say to the Premier.

I want to read to him Standing Order 92 of this Legislature, 11 Ever·y member offe!ring a peti t.ion 11 - and obviously those supporting it 11 to the House shall confine himelf to the statement of the parties from whom it come•s, the number of signatures attached to it and the material allegations it contains. 11 The material allegations containe!d in this petition is that the people of Bay St. GeorgE! are asking that the thirty-five positions be reinstate!d. They are asking that the DE!partment of Social Services reinstate! t.hE!m. Now, the Premier has said that he supports it.

Will he te!ll us why he supports it? Will he tell us what he is going to do as a result of that support? And will he indeed take this to Cabinet and ask - MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, he cannot be asking No . 58 R3103

questions. MR. TULK: I am asking him to qualify his support. Will he qualify his support and tell us that we do not need to put any more of those petitions on the table of the House? PREMIER PECKFORD: To that point of Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: order, Mr . The hon. the Premier to the point of order. PREMIER PECKFORD: What the hon. member is really saying now is that his colleague who presented the petition was out of order. Because when the hon. member presented thE! peti t.ion, hE! got into the whole field of social services in thE! body of his remarks.

Therefore, if the han. member is going to be consistE!nt in his point of order, he should have gotten up earlier and called attention to the fact that his member was out of order because he was not dealing with the s peci fie principlE! of the petition but rather straying into all fields of socia1 serviCE!S. Given that there was no point of order, given that the han. member was not brought t.o attention by the Chair, I took .it upon myself to respond to the body of the hon. member's remarks in his support of the petition, indicating that I supported in principal improved services to social services. MR.

SPEAKER: It is han. To that point of order. very difficult to keep any member strictJ.y to the wording of the petition. rule thE!re is no point of exact I must order. L3104 June 10, 1987 Uol XL The hon. the Premier's time has now elapsed. Orders of the Day MR. SPEAKER: This is Private Member's Day. I ca11 on the hon. the member for St. Barbe, who has twelve minutes left. The han. the member for St. Barbe . SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FUREY: Before I get into my general comments about this particuJ.ar resolution, Mr.

Speaker, I think it would bE! very wise to refresh han. members' memories on all sides of this House to what the Minister of Social Services said in his opening rE!marks a WE!ek ago today, just after the Leader of Her Majesty's Opposition took his seat. Here is u.Jhat the hon. the MinistE!r of Social SE!rViCE!S said, and I am quoting verbatim, Page L2889: "But I can assure the hon. member" - meaning the Leader of thE! Opposition (Mr·.

Simmons) 11 that if tomorrow he would read back in Hansard what he said today on this motion, he would be ashamed of himself, because nothing that he said was constructive and nothing that he said was intelligent." Mr. Speaker, how a week can change the colour of somebody's commentary. Let us look at t.vhat the Minister of Social Services said in the aftermath a week ago that was constructive and intelligent. It is also worthy to note, as we saw here again today, that when the Premier or his administration gets in trouble they do one of three things: They distract, they No. 58 R3104

diVE!rt, or they mythologize. They distract by throwing numbers a c r o s s this way ; they are champions of the women 1 s movement by marching out statistics which are supposed to make them heroes . They divert, Mr. Speaker, as we saw the Premier do on public television the other night, or they mythologi.ze. Now, what is the myth they have created ever since this minister· stood in his place to speak on this very important, very sensitive issue which affects a great number of our people, Mr. Speaker? What was the myth they created?

Here is the myth they creat.ed: They said the minister was not spE!aking as the minister. Not~.J, just imagine! The minister was not speaking as the minister. Well, he u.1as speaking as one of three things, Mr. Speaker: He was either speaking as a private citizen, which he could have done any time . outside this Chamber, he was speaking as a private member, which he could have donE! any time inside this Chamber, or Mr. SpeakE!r, he was speaking in his place, I submit, as the Minister of Social Services responsiblE! for day care in this Province. I say to you, Mr.

Speaker, that the evidence is quitE! clear that not my words, not any words of the other fifty members in this Chamber, but the words of t.he Minister of Social Services are what will show, Mr. Speaker, clearly to everyone in this Chamber, to every member on all sides, from all three parU .es, that it was the Minister of Social Services who uttered those devastating comments of a week ago which put a scar across the face of this government that will take quite a few stitches to patch up. What did he say? He said on page L3105 June 10, 1987 Vo1 XL L2891, and I quote verbatim, 11 As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, as the Minister of Sod.al ServiCE!S, I understand .. . 11 , and he goes on. Where eJ.se did he speak as the Minister of Social Services, Mr. Speaker? If you turn to his words on R2892, and I quote verbatim again, 11 So, Mr. Spe<~kE!r, as one minister· in Canada who is rE!Sponsible for child care ... 11 , and he goes on and on. Again, Mr. Speaker, where does he speak as Minister of Social Services? L2893, and I quote VE!rbatim, 11 I happen to believe that not only as the Minister of Social Services ... 11 , and on he goes, Mr. Speaker. Again on page R2893, Mr.

Speaker, I quote verbatim, 11 So I guess the choice we have to make as a government and I have to make as Minister of Social Services is, from whom do I take it? 11 Mr. Speaker, on four separate occasions the record is very clear. There are no more excuses. It cannot be made any more crystal clear, Mr. Speaker, than the four instances quoted, not by any of the other fifty-one members in this Chamber but by the minister in his capacity as minister, and hE! states it on thE! record on four separate occasions, 1 I am speaking as the minister . I am on the record as the rninistE!r.

I speak for this government as the minister. 1 Can tt be any clearer? It cannot, Mr. Speaker. So let us be quite hone•st and up front and straightforward on all sides of this Chamber. Let us not create myths that he tJJas speaking as a prtuate person. He could have done that outside the Chamber. Let us not distract. and divert by saying that he tJJas speaking as a private mE!mber. He, himself, says he was not. No. 58 R3105

The fact of the matter, Mr. Speaker, is that he was speaking as the Minister of Social Services for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, what did he say as the Minister Responsible for Social Services in this Province of ours? He said some things that made the Minister Responsible for the Status of Women very uncomfortab1e, Mr. Speaker. He said some things that the Minister of Justice, who is in her own right a great champion of women's rights, very uncomfortable. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FUREY: And he said sornE!thing, Mr.

Speaker, that. the Premier has been ducking and dodging for five days now. But., Mr. Speaker, this government has to own up to u.1hat this 1nin.ister said. Nou.J what chd he say? MR. J. CARTER : A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: OrdE!r, please! A point of order, the hon . the member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, there are several points to be made while I am up on a point of order: One is that the gentleman is being tedious and boring, which I think so~ewhere in our rules is contrary to our rules, but, most importantly, he is, I believe, misconstruing the minister's remarks.

L3106 June 10, 1987 Vol XL Now, it is true that you can point to isolated phrases that if lifted out of context would make what the minis·ter said look not in keeping with the spirit of the rest of this side of the House. HoweVE!r, if you take the remarks in total and look upon thE!ITI half sensibly and discount the disturbance that the member for Fogo intE!rpoSE!d in the middle of it, then I think you wiJl see that they were fairly well-reasoned, and a well-reasoned argument was trying to be put forward. Just as importantly, it is now five minutes after four. This is Wednesday.

After four o'clock we are not required to lis ten to an interminable debate, and I think the member should mend his remarks accordingly. I think it is intolerable. It is not fair. Now, the one point that s h o u 1 d be made is that the hon. member is saying far more about himself than he is saying about the Minister of Social Services, far more! MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, therE! is no point of order. The hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY : Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for raising the issue of context. How does onE! take thE! words from that minister out of context?

You tell me how to take this out of context, Mr. Speaker, and I quote verbatim: "So, Mr. Speaker, as one minister· in Canada who is responsible for chiJ.d care I want to go on record as saying that I wish we had more conscientious mothers, more people who would be willing to sacrifice their· careers, stay home and raise their children." No. 58 R31.06

How do you take that out of context? It gives rise to the logical question, Mr . Speaker. This statement implies that mothers who work , who arE ! forced out of their homes to work, widows and widowers who are forced to work are not conscientious. Mr . Speaker, that is outrageous, ludicrous and demands an apology from this minister wi·thout any more waste of time, without any more diversion, distraction, or mythologizing. This minister is clear, the context is clear, it could not be any clearer. What else did he say, Mr . Speaker?

He went on to say, and I quo t.e: 11 0ur correc tion al cent res in Newfou ndlan d tod ay are full. They are bur sting at the sea ms . I assume people get mar ·r ied, ma ke a consci ous decision to ha ve a family, I someti mes won de r if we would not ha ve as man y p eo ple in our correctional centres if these people continued on with a conscientious decision to stay hornE ! and raiSE! their children. 11 Now, Mr.

Speaker, logically what the minister is saying is that if thE! mother or father are not home with the children and these children ar ·e forced out into day care centres , these children are on the path to prison. There is no other way to interpret that. Sorry, guys, that is the way it is, that is what the record says, those are the ministers words, and it cannot be diverted, distracted or mythoJ.ogized any more. Mr .

Speaker, these words are so insidious and cast su ch a slur across the working community of mothers and fathers in this Province who choose to SE!nd their children to day care, these words of that minister have put this government in such an embarrassing situation, the minister L3107 June 10, 1987 Vol XL responsible for the • Status of Women so embarrassed, the Minister of Justice so ernbarrasSE!d, the !

Premier so embarrassed, that I am going to now moVE! an amendment to relieve th em of th eir embarrassment, and I move that . thE ! resolution tabled last Wednesday be further amended by adding thE! following: AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that because of the refusal of the minister to retract or apologize for the statemE !nts made by him in this House on June 3, 1987, this House repudiate the Minister 1 s statements - MR. WARREN : A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon . the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, as I understand tt, the hon. gentleman had exactly twelve minutes to speak. He has already gone nearly fifteen rninutes. MR. SPEAKER: there is The hon. To that point of order, no point of order. member 1 s time is not up YE!t. The han. the member for St. Barbe . MR. FUREY: Mr.

Speaker, I was saying, and I shall repeat for the benefit of those people who choose to interrupt: BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that because of the refusal of the minister to retract or apologize for the statements rnade by hirn in this House on June 3, 1987, this House repudiate the Minister 1 s statements, apologize to the No . 58 R3107

working parents concerned and their children and request the Minister to resign. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . FUREY: I wouJ.d not. mind, Mr. Speaker, if there were not ample opportunity for this minister to crawl ou t - MR. SPEAKER : Order, pleaSE!! The han. member 1 s time is up. MR. FUREY: By leave to conclude? SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leave. No leave . MR. FUREY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. DR. COLLINS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han . the Minister of Finance . DR. COlLINS : Mr. Speaker, my understanding is that there is an amendment already being debated.

The hon. member is bringing ·in a sub-amendment, and the first thing that has to be decided by the Chair is whether the sub-amendment is in order. We have not had that decision yet. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the han. the member for St . Barbe. MR . FUREY : Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. I was saying, in conclusion, that a lot of people across this Province including the Status of Women, the Nurses Union, L3108 June 10, 1987 Vol XL thE!

Federation of Labour, parE!nt.s and concerned people everywhE!re not just in the political rE!alrn, not. in lhis arena but out there in the everyday strE!et life, Mr'. Speaker, we are seeing people who are VE!ry, very upsE•t, and WE! arE! saying that this minister has had a full week to apologize publicly, to retract those awful remarks. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Is the han. member speaking to that point of order? MR. FUREY: Now, Mr. Speaker, he situation where hE! has It is as simple as that . DR. COLLINS : is in a to resign. Further to that point of order . MR.

SPEAKER: Further to that point of order, the hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS : Mr. Speaker, on page 155 of my edit .ion of Beauchesne, Fifth Edition, SE•cU.on 438 (1), it says her·e: 11 The purpose of a sub-amE!ndmE!nt 11 -· and this is what IAJe are dea1ing with now- 11 is to al tE!r the amE!ndment; it should not enlarge upon the scope of the arne!ndment but it should dE!al with matters that are not covered by the amendment; if it is intended to bring up matters foreign to the amendment, the ME!mber should wait until the amendment is disposed of and move a new amendment. 11 Now, Mr.

Speaker, my undE!rstanding of the wording of this sub-amendment is that it deals tAJith matters that are not in any way related either to the main question or to the amendment that was brought in by the Leader of No. 58 R3108

the Opposition, if my memory serves me correctly. So I moue that this sub-ame!ndment is out of order. If the han. member had the right to speak again, which he does not at the moment, he could bring in anot.hE!r amE!ndment after this amendment has been dealt with. MR. TULK: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the han. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: ThE! han. gE!ntleman quotE!S

Section 438 of Beauchesne, page 155, and he USE!S as his argument that the sub-amendment should not bring up mattE!rS fored.gn to the amE!ndrnent. Mr. Speaker, anybody who beJ.ieues that the . words of the minister and, indeed, the amendment itself are contrary to the demand for good day care services in this Province, which is a principle of this bill, is just looking for an argument that is completely out of order. The truth of the matter is, Mr.

Speaker, the effects of the words of the minister, and the absence of an apology from the minister, upon day care in this Province speaks right to the principle of the private member • s bill that was introduced - and, inde•ed, the amendment - by the member for St. John 1 s East ExtE!rn (Mr. Parsons). Mr. Speaker, I would go on and say to the han. gentleman that we are looking at a situation here where two amendments can be pr·oposed at the same time to a question, as is defined in

Section 438 (2): 11 A sub-amendment must attempt to expJ.ain the substance of the amendment and may not substitute an entirely netJJ proposal. 11 This is not an E!ntirely new proposal, Mr. Speaker, and it does speak to L3109 June 10, 1987 Vol XL the substance of the amendment that has been put forward, because the minister 1 s actions and thE! minister 1 s lack of action in not apologizing does indeed takE! away from the effectiveness of the day care system, and that is exact.Jy what the principle of the main motion and the amE:~ndme•nt is and, I would submit to Your Honour that it is perfectly in order. MR.

SPEAKER: Before ruling on order I wi 1.1 recess a couple of minutes sub--amendment. that the and Recess MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! point of House for review the To the point of order raised by the hon. the Minister of Finance, the sub-amendment is in order·. We will now debate the sub~amendmE!nt, the amendment and the main motion. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! DR. COLLINS: Just a point of clari fica tion, if I rnay. MR. SPEAKER: A point of clarification, the han . the Minister of Finance. DR.

COLLINS: My understanding now is that a sub-amendment essentially brings a whole new question before the House, so that anyone who has spoken before has the right to speak again on this new question. MR. TULK : No, Mr. Speaker. it, if we were No. 58 As I underst.and dealing with a R3109

piece of legislation that was before the House, say a Finance Bill or something like that, a government bill or a government motion, that would be the case. As I understand it in this particular case, on a pr·ivate member 1 s motion I think the same rule would apply to a subamendment as it has been ruled applies to an amendment, and in the case of an amendment the rule has been in this Legislature that you cannot speak again if you have spoken on the main motion. So, I would submit to Your Honour that the Minister of Finance is wrong when he states that - DR. COLLINS: Can cite a precedent for that? MR .

TULK : I think the precedent was established perhaps two years ago. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, any han. member can speak to the main motion only at onE! particular time, and the sub--amendment would be regarded as part of the main motion. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: fhe han. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : ThE! han. the member for St.. John 1 s East. MR. LONG: Mr. SpeakE!r, point of Inasmuch as rules, it is I am rising on a personal privilege.

I understand the necessary to rise at L3110 JunE! 10, 1987 Vol XL the earliest opportunity and this is the earliest opportunity to raise a point which relates to our dE!bate in thE! House YE!StE!rday afternoon. I have just been reading the Hansard of yesterday and I would refer the SpeakE!r to page 3074 which carries the debate, and at the top of the pagE!, at thE! end of thE! dE!bate by the han. t:he member for Menihek (Mr.

FE!nwick), the Chairman said, 11 The han. the member 1 s time has E!lapsed. 11 Then Hansard rE!Cords the Chairman saying, 11 0n motion, clauses 6 and 7 carried. 11 I am appealing to thE:~ Chair that our privileges were breached and I would refer the Speaker to Beauchesne,

Section 766, in which it says: 1 ThE! clauses of a bill in committee must be considered in their proper order; that is, beginning with Clause 1 then taking up Clause 2 and so on, to the end of the bill. The Chairman usually calls out the number of each clause and reads the marginal note; he may read the clause at length if it is demandE!d by the committee. Each clausE! is a distinct question and must be separately discussed. 1 My argument, Mr.

Speaker, is that accordJng t.o the transcript in Hansard the Chairman was incorrect 1 y proceeding through the clauses under debatE! in CommittE!e yesterday and my appeal to the Chair is that if the Speaker can take this under advisement, once we come back to this matt.E!r, presumably tomorrow, once the bill is recalled, that. we would rE!VE!rt back to Clause 7, which we were not given an opportunity to discuss. That is my case, Mr. Speaker. DR. COLLINS : Mr. ::speaker, to that point of No. 58 R31l.O

pr'ivilege. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of privilege, the han . the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: If I understand the hon. member correctly, he is referring to this

section here where it says: 1 Mr. Chairman: The han. the member 1 s time has elapsed. On motion, Clauses 6 and 7 carried. 1 Now, if I understand the han. member correctly, he is saying that the Chairman said 1 ClausE~s 6 and 7 1 , and so and so and so forth. But I do not believe that is what it reads at all. In many places in Hansard there is a sort of an abbreviation put in and if something is carriE~d that is all it says, 1 0n motion, Clauses 6 and 7 carriE~d. 1 It does not mean that is LAJhat the Chairman said, it just says that those were the motions that were put forward and they were carried.

That is the way Hansard records those. I suggest, and if I r'emember correctly, this was the case: I think the Chairman said, 1 Clause 6, carried. ClausE~ 7, carried. 1 Then the hon. meJflber got up and said, 1 I want to speak to Clause 7, and Your Honour has subsequently ruled that Clause 7 tA.Jas already carried. 1 But the Chairman of Committees did not say, CLauses 6 and 7 carried. He said the two separately, and that is just the way it is recorded, in a sort of an abbreviated way in Hansard . If you look through Hansard, in any number of places, you will find that is the way Hansard does things . MR. J.

CARTER : To that point of privilege, Mr . Speaker. L3111 June 10, 1987 Uol XL MR. SPEAKER: To that point of privilege, the han. the rnernber for St . John 1 s North . MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I think Hansard will record that I rose shortly after that to point out, as the M:inist .E!r of Finance said, that that is exactly what did happen. ClauSE! 6 carried. Then Clause 7 carried . The Minister of Finance is quite correct in saying that is the way it is recorded in Hansard, but if the tape itself were listened to, you would see quite clearly that Clause 6 tA.Jas carried and Clause 7 carriE!d.

When the hon. membe~r got up to speak, we tA.Jere into Clause 8. That was the way it was and that is that. Although the written version of Ha nsard may not support it, certainly the taped version of Hansard will. MR. SPEAKER : I will have to before I make a point of privilege . rev ·.iew ruling Hansard on that The hon. the Minister of Justice . MS UERGE: Thank you, Mr . Speaker . Another day, Mr. Speaker, I w1 11 wear a bright colour so you will not have any trouble noticing me. Mr. Speaker, I am ple~ased t:o participate in this discussion about public child care in our Province.

The motion befor e us, made by my colleague, the membE~r for St. John's East Extern, is extremely well worded . It is concise, but it captures the essence of the necessity of rnorE~ supports For parents in th is Province for the care of their young children . It ref1::'!r's to ttJJo No . 58 R3111

recent studies: There are others that I will get into later. It says, in its second recital, that the Province has demonstrated a considerable commitment, within its limited fiscal capacity, to improving child care resources.

It. gOE!S on to call on a11 mE!mbe!rS of the House to uni t.e in urging the federal governmE!nt, in its imminent new national child care funding poJ.icy, to give a higher ratio of cost-sharing to poorer provinces, provinces such as Newfoundland and Labrador, so that we can continue to expand our publicly funded child care services, our supports for parents for the care of their young children. Mr. Speaker, I would like to deal with the three elements of this motion one by one. First, the need for more accessible quality child care: Mr. Speaker, this is a need for the sake of young children.

It is a need for the sake of families. Particularly, it is a need for the sake of mothers. not that mothers are any more indispensable than fathers to the car'E! and upbringing of young children, but the practical reality of our society is that most of the burden of looking after young children rests with mothers, rightly or wrongly, and most of our growing number of c:single parent familtes are mother led. So the nE!E!d for better supports For parents caring for thedr young children is critical for t.he sake of children, for the sake of families as a whole, and especially for the sake of mothers. Mr.

Speaker, the early years of life are the most important for learning and for development. This is a fact that has been demonstrated by several important psychological studies. It is L3112 June 10, 1987 Vol XL thoroughly documented in research. I wiJ.J. refer to some of the studies, longitudinal studies of children who have partid.pated. By age five the brain has rE!ached 90 per CE!nt of its adult weight and half the final intellectual growth of the child has been achieved, according to a study by Brierley in 1980. MR. SIMMONS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: OrdE!r, please!

A point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I hate to interrupt the minister. I find her views quite interes·ting. I do so strict1y for parliamentary reasons, because I submit she is qui t:e out of orde!r now. If, Mr. Speaker, you refer to Beauchesne paragraph 304 (9), which is on page 100 in the Fifth Edition, it reads in part: "Afte!r an amendment has been moved, t:he question on the amendment is proposed, and any member who speaks after that question has been proposed speaks to it and not to the main question ... 11 Now, Mr.

Speaker, the minister's views on day care are interesting, but they re1ate to the main question which was put down by the gentleman for St. John's East Extern. What the House would now like to know, and the member for St. Barbe would particularly like to know, is what the minister's views are on the sub-amendment which is now before the House. That sub .. -amendment relates, Mr. Speaker, to the refusal of the minister to retract or apologize for the statE:~ment.s made, that this No. 58 R3112

House repudiate those ex tend an apology to parents concerned and minister 1 s resignation. statemE!nts, the working request the Now, I understand that the minister in rising to speak to this sub-amendment as opposed to waiting for the main qUE!Stion to be called now wants to speak to thE! sub-amE!ndment. I would suggest to the Chair that she be directe!d, there!fOrE!, to confine her remarks to the sub-amendment, to give the House thE! benefit of her views on the important subjects addressed in the sub-amendment, as she is directed to do by Beauchesne, paragraph 304, sub-paragraph (9), as I have read, Mr.

Speaker. DR. COLLINS : To that point of order, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon . the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. SpE!ake!r, I raised a point of clarification a little while ago as to thE! spE!aking on a sub-amendment and it was ruled that we go by precede!nt. When the point was brought up by the House Leader opposite, I asked him for a reference. He said, 1 There is no such reference. We go by precedent. 1 Now, Mr. Speaker, they cannot have it both ways.

They cannot go by precedE!nt when they want a ruling one way and then, when they want to counter something being done on this side, say, 1 Well, now, okay, we tAJill throw all that out. Now we wiJ.l go back to Beauchesne and go strictly by Beauchesne. 1 If we are going precedent that the to have the sub-amendment, L3113 June 10, 1987 Vol XL the amendment and the main question ar'e all wrapped up into one on PrivatE! Members 1 Day in thE! debate, well, when the minister speaks, she has every right to speak to all aspects of what is placed before the floor at any time. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

To that point of order, been the practice in this debate both the amendment main question together. it has . House to and thE! The hon. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I might say that this is my one opportunity to participate in this discussion, and what I believe to be important to the pE!Ople I rE!present. in this House of Assembly are the issues of child care, and opportunities and rights of working mothers. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MS VERGE : Mr.

Speaker, I am going to use the time allotted to me to address those issues, and I refuse to get distracted into a gutter-level discussion of persona lities. What I am here to do is represent the interests of my constituents, and others in the Province, when it comes to concerns about good carE· for young children and supports of parents of young children. Mr. Speaker, what I was saying when I was interrupted was that research has shown that the E!arly years, the years from birth to age five, are the most important in a person 1 s intellectual development. Further, Mr. Speaker, it has been shown by No. 58 R3113

research that preschool programmes, early childhood education programmes, nursery school programmes, play school programmes. a variety of care arrangements for young children at this critical stage, with care provided by care giVE!rS othE!r than parents, and there are lots of modE!lS, when donE! well, when well planned, have substantial and consistent long-term benefits for the children r·elated to their school sucCE!SS, re!lated to their job opportunities and related to their self image. The research shows a Firm link between the early years and later development. Mr.

Speaker, it has been shown that these kinds of quality care programmes for young children can benefit all kinds of children, no matter what the home circumstances are. No matter whether there are two parents at home full--time, one parent at home full-time, only one parent in the home setting, all children stand to benefit from good quality care programmes, with care givers other than parents. But. Mr. Speaker. the re!search is clear in point'ing out that. there is a special bE!nefit to children from disadvantaged homes, who have disadvantaged backgrounds, and there are many reasons for disadvantages.

There are those around who refer to some mythical good oJ.d days when morn was t.hE!re full-time. I think it is a my-th that morns eVE!r devoted themselves full-time and exclusively to the care of their children. In the good old days, there were large households; the average family size was quite great and, by and large!. there WE!rE! older children. ther·e were other adult family members. if not fathe!rs. to hE!lp mom in looking after the young children. But, Mr.

Speaker, that L3114- June 10, 1987 Vol XL is changing well as in America. in the our Province as rest of North According to the 1981 census, there was an aVE!ragE! of only 3. 8 adults in a Newfoundland and Labrador household. That compares to 4-.6 people in a household in 1971, and S in 1961. So the average family size in this Province has decreased quite markedly. and thE! extended famtly is no longer as common as it once 1.11as; it is no long~;.~r as common to have a grandmother, grandfather, aunt, or uncle living ih a household to help mom and dad raise the children. Mr.

Speaker, in our Provice the divorce rate has gone up significantly, para11el1ing the trend elsewhere in North America. It is still lower than the North America average, but in 1981, according to the census figures again, the divorce rate in this Province was 96 per 100,000 population,

whereas it had been 69 in 1975. In our Province, according to the 1982 census figures, almost 10 per cent of families with children were single parent families and the vast majority of them, Mr. Speaker, were mother-led families. Mr. Speaker, according to thE! provinctal perinatal programme study in 1982, 15 per cent of all live births in our Province are to adolescent mothe•rs, many of thE!SE• mothers unmarried, many who were chosing to keE!p thedr babies. So, Mr. Speaker, the demographics of this Province have been changing.

Women haVE! be!en E!ntE!ring thE! paid labour force in unprecedented numbers, again mirroring the trend in the rest of North America. The Premier has referred to facts No. 58 R3114-

which are in the government publication, The Economy 1987, shou.Jing that between 1979 and 1985 the annual average size of the labour force increased by 25,000, and of this number 21,000 are wome!n. In other wor'ds, 84· per cent of the net.t.J entrants to l:he labour force in that pE!Y'iod were women. Mr. Speaker, right now, of the total provincial paid labour force, 4-0 per cent ar'e women; of the employees of this provincial government, of our provincial public service, 40 per cent are women. The average age is thirty-eight. A lot of people working for this provincial government are mothers. Now, Mr'.

Speaker, these are all facts pointing out why child care is critical, why supplements and supports to pare!nts, whether they are at horne or whether they are in the paid work force, arE! important for the sake of the children of the families, particularly for the sake of mothers. Mr. Speaker, this administration has a deep commitment to providing these supports, to providing good care to our young children, and to allowing women to make choices for themselves so that they can do what is best for themselves as individuals, and what is bE!St for their children and their families. Mr.

Speaker, first I will talk about what we have done for women in particular. We have established a Provincial Advisory Council on the Status of Women, and we have appointed to the Advisory Council committed feminists who are concerned first and foremost about the interests of the women of the Province. In that respect, Mr. Speaker, I think you will find that our Province is unique in the country. I do not think there is another Canadian L3115 June 10, 1987 Vol XL jurisdiction which has appointed such a strong group of advocates for women to its Advisory Council. Mr.

Spe!aker, WE! haVE! established a permanent part of the public serviCE! called the Women's Poli.cy Office, u.Jhich is part of the Department of Career Development and Advanced Studies, which is dedicated to providing for government research and analyses of public policy proposals so that we have the benefit of advice and can ensure that our policiE!S arE! beneficial to women. Mr.

Speaker, we passed t.he matromonial property reform legislation which had as one of its main features the equal ownership of the matrimonial home automatically, immediately during marriage, which has the effect of creating a joint tendancy so that when the marriage ends through death or separation or divorce, the matrimonial home becomes the sole property of the surviving spouse. Mr. Speaker, for our own public SE!rViCE!, 4-0 per cent of whom arE! women, we have received a report of a Task Force on Affirmative Action for Wom~::~n, which we appointed, and we are now implementing their recommendations.

We have provided collective agreement provisions for famtly responsibility leave. Now, each employee, man/woman, can take off up to three days a year with pay for family responsibility, to at.tend to a sick child, to go to school with a child, 'etc. We have also Labrador allowance and maternity leave provisions which providE! the kind of supports I arn talking about to women and men, in the case of Labrador allowance, so that they can look after their No. 58 R3115

children and also have good careers; we have a sexual harassment clausE! in most of our public service collective agreements; we have an accelerated management programme for women; we have an Affirmative Action Council made up of public servants. Most significantly, Mr. Speaker, last week we opened the Province 1 s first work place day care centre here at. Confederation Complex for fifty children, children of our own employees. Mr. SpE!aker, this will serve as a model to other employers in thE! ProvincE!, public sector and private sector, and I understand, Mr.

Speaker, that the Workers 1 Compensation Board is already looking at copying the example. Mr. Speaker, what have we done in tE!rrns of spending on child care? There has been a geometric progression of increase in spending on child care by the Department of Social SE!rvices. I have a breakdown here for the last eleven years which shows a big increase year after year after year. There was a 71 per cent increase from 1985 ·- 1986 to 1986 - 1987, bringing thE! total to $1.3 million. This year the total is over $1.4 million.

This money is paid to day care centres for start-up, for capital requirements; this money is paid for training, and the bulk of j_t goes to subsidize child care spaces for children of parents who have low incomes, or children who are handicapped. Mr. Speaker, that is a huge increase. A couple of years ago, Mr.

Speaker, we began in one of our publicly funded post-secondary institutions, the Cabot Institute, the first publicly funded training programne for child care, day care L3 116 June 10, 1987 Uol XL workers, and we are committed to beginning the second at Fisher College of Applied Arts and Technology in Corner Brook. Mr. Speaker, we have all kinds of goals and policiE!S worked out to continue to expand child care services throughout the Province. We need more staff in the Department of Social ServiCE!S. We need to regionaltze the services. WE! nee!d child care consultants in each part of the Province.

I can spE!ak for thE! Corner Brook area, where there is a definite need for a social services child care consultant. We need these consultants to work with families, with community groups, with volunteer groups, with employers, to help people form parent co-ops, to help private agencies like YM-YWCA with their child care programme:1, to work with E!mployers like fish plants, like FPI to develop work place child care centers. MR. EFFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hon . the member for Port de Grave. MR.

EFFORD: The Minister of Justice just very clearly said that in the Corner Brook district office she would like to seE! additional social workers to work on the child care problem. That is nE!eded not only in Corner Brook but all around the Province of Newfoundland. I am very confused. We have been presenting petitions in this HouSE! of Assembly against the cutback of thirty-five social workers. MR. BUTT : No. 58 R3 116

This is not Question Period, old boy. If you want to ask questions, you get up at another time. You are breaking the rules of thE! House. Sit down! You are tnaking a fool of yourself. MR. EFFORD: Why did the Minister of not ge~ to her feet and those petitions? MR. SPEAKER: Justice support To that point of order, there is no point of order. The hon. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have already illustrated, Mr.

Speaker, that this Province has been increasing funding for child care services by leaps and bounds, rates of increase completely out of proporU.on to the rate of increase in provincial revenues and the provincial economy. So, Mr. Speaker, clearly the answer - and this brings me to the motion - lies in increased federal funding, and in that respect we wait with anticipation for the announcement by the federal goVE!rnment of its new national child care funding programme. Mr. Speaker, we are urging the federal government, and I invite all members here to unite in supporting the member for St.

John's East Extern's motion to have the federal government give this Province, being one of the poorest in the country in terms of few resources, a more generous cost-sharing arrangement . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. member's time is up. The han. the member for the Strait L3117 June 10, 1987 Vol XL of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: Mr . Speaker, if t:he han. the Minister of Justice really and truly means what she said in that speech, which I thoroughly enjoyed, if she is not pontificating, thE!n I ask what. is she doing on that side of the House?

Because she is saying exactly what we have been saying for thE! last seven days in this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. DECKER: Why would she not reconsider she should be sitting in Chamber? MS VERGE: where this A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : A point of order, the han. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: As the member opposite said, they have only been talking about child care for the past seven days . Some of us over here have been working on it for a good ten years. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there :is no point of order.

The han. the membE!r for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: If she only if she only for the had some of the vigor, had some of the venom Minister of Social Services, to child who is a total disgracE! care in this Province, No. 58 R3117

that she has for me, Mr . Speaker, then I would pat her on the back. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. DECKER: But, Mr. Speaker, enough of this name calling. First allow me to compliment the hon . member for St . John • s East Extern for the second 1

WHEREAS 1 in this motion which he put forward, Mr. Speaker. In the second 1

WHEREAS 1 he rE!fers to the Cooke Task Force on Child Care and the report of the Royal Commission on Employment and Unemployment. The han. member did not pluck this statement out of the air. He is backing up the resolution which he is putting here. Would to goodness, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. Minister of Social Services would learn something from the member for St. John 1 s East Extern. Because what does the Minister of Social Services do? He comes in this House and he says, •studies have proven that working mothers are the cause of child delinquency, young offenders.

The jails, the reform schools, are filled with the children of working mothers. 1 He quotes studies. Did he table thE! studies? Did he give the names of the studies? No, Mr . Speaker. He plucked it totally out of his head. He misled the House. But the member for St . John 1 s East Extern gives the names of his sources, Mr. Speaker . DR. COLLINS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I think it is bad L3118 June 10, 1987 Vol XL enough for the han. member to accuse a member who is not here of misleading the House, I think that is bad enough, but he is saying the hon. member who is not here mislE!d thE! House on the basis of his own

interpretation of things, things that are not in Hansard . He is saying that certain things are in Hansard, and because of what he is saying is in Hansard, this is a misleading of the House. These things are not in Hansard. The hon. thE! MinistE!r of Social Services said no such thing as the hon. member is accusing him of. It is, as I say, bad enough, but now he is saying that the minister misled the House. I think it is a tissue of misinterpretation, and it is maligning the minister who is not here to defend himself. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of ordE!r, therE! is no point of order.

The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member from St. John 1 s East Extern (Mr. Parsons) quotes his sources, unlike the Minister of Social ServiCE!S (Mr. BrE!tt) and he is doing this House a great favour by doing so. But I would suggest , Mr . Speaker, that he will even do the Premier a greater favour because ultimately the Premier is going to have to remove that minister who, I understand, is attE!nding a day school CE!nt.E!r, who is attending some sort of a seminar for day schools or day care in Ontario .

I am sure he is making quite a contribution to that. But the hon. member for St . John 1 s East Extern is going to save the Premier•s neck because No. 58 R3118

when, ultimately, the Minister of Social Services has to resign, then I am going to suggest to the hon. Premier that he replace him by a rnan who quotes his sources, who is not afraid to say what he means, and not afraid to say who he is quoting. I am suggesting, Mr. Speake!r, that the member for St. John's East Extern would be the ide!al person to replace the Minister of Social Services. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, after just complimenting the hon. member, I very kindly, very gently have to say to him that in the third

WHEREAS when he gets on with the foolishness about the 11 considerable cornmitment 11 of the Province, I would suggest, in kindness, that the hon. member just got a little bit carried away. He was just trying, I suppose, to curry a bit of favour with the Premier· or with his colleagues, maybe trying to hasten the chances where he would some day get into thE! Cabinet, but he got a little bit carried away. Thank goodness we saw his mistake and the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was kind enough to amE!nd that third

WHEREAS, Mr. Speaker, where he replaced it. He asked that that one be removed, and I am sure the House will go along and support his amendment. 11 AND

BE IT RESOLVED that this House instruct the provincial government to live up to its responsibilities For child care by implementing a carefully thought out plan of action to adequately address the problem and to L3119 June 10, 1987 Vol XL strengthen its financial case in Ottawa. 11 Mr. Speaker, that takes all the foolish, all the political nonsense out of it, all the currying of favour out of it and it brings it right down and puts it in perspective. So I am sure the hon. member for St. John's East Extern wi 11 be quite satisfied to allow this amendmE!nt to go in there. This is not a great change.

It just gives morE! strength to this argument which ul t.imately is going to have to be taken to Ottawa. In his fourth

WHEREAS, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member refers to the 11 willingness 11 of the federal government 11 to be responsive 11 • I cannot say whE!ther or· not this is the actual fact or not, but I have no reason to doubt it. The membE!r who gets up and quotes Cook and quotes thE! House report, I have no reason to doubt his fourth

WHEREAS so I am going to give the hon. gentleman the benefit of the doubt and I too am going to say that there is a willingness on the part of the federal government to listen and possibly help us to do something about day care. Mr. Speaker, let us, for a minute, put ourselves in the place of, let us say, the Prime Minister or in the place of Ottawa, just Ottawa, which I will put in parenthesE!S. Here is a private mt:!mbers motion coming up from Newfoundland and the Premier of the Province gE!tS up in the House and totally pul1s the shores out from his Minister of Social ServiCE!S.

He says, 1 The Minister of Social Services is spouting off with a philosophy that I do not accept.' The Premier goes far enough, Mr. Speaker, to have instructed his secretary that when she gE!tS thE! No. 58 R3119

... dozens and dozens and hundreds of calls that she is getting from the Status of Women, who they appointed and tried to stack with Tory members, when she gets phone calls from the concerned women and the concerned men around this Province, the Premier has instructed his secretaries to say, 1 I agree with you. I disagree with what the Minister of Social Services said. 1 The Government House Leader (Mr. OttenheimE!r), Mr. Speaker, gets up and he practically goes on and says the same thing. 1 The Minister of Social Services is not speaking for me, I wiJ.l have you to know . No , he is not speaking for me.

He is just spouting off. 1 And then, of course, the ultimate, total insult is when the MinistE!r of Justice (Ms Verge) gets up, as shE! did today, and tries to wash her hands totally and says, 11 I am not a part. 11 Can you imagine Ottawa whE!n this request comes up, if it is passed without being amended? Can you imagine what would happen if this request went up wj t.hout being amended? What would they say? ThE! Premier is saying one thing, the Minister of Justice is saying something, the hon. House Leader is saying something, and the minister of Social Services is saying something totally different. Mr.

Speaker, let us can the nonsense. Let us stop fooling ourselves. Let us stop the preposterous and foolishness here and now because the Prime Minis·ter knows, and every single Canadian knows, that it is the Minister of Social Services who speaks for the government. When there is something to do with day care, when there is something to do with L3120 June 10, 1987 Vol XL social services, it is the Minister ·of Social Serv:ices who speaks, not the Minister of Justice, not the Premier, not the House Leader, it is the MinistE!r of Social Services who speaks, Mr. Speaker. The Cabinet is not unlikE! a piano keyboard.

If you strike a certain key, you gE!t one sound, and if you strike another key, you get another sound. If the thing is not: tota.1ly out of tune, Mr. Speaker, as this goVE!r.nment is, if it :is not totally out of tune and you have the right person sitting at the piano, you will get some nice music coming from it. Unfortunately, that is not the case here. So let us not talk foolishness. The hon. Minister of Social Services speaks for the government and when he stands up in his place in this House, he does not have the luxury of speaking as a individual, Mr. Speaker, he speaks for the government.

And what is the government saying? What is the Peckford Administration saying? What is the Tory Administration saying to Ottawa, to the women 1 s groups in this Province, to the parents, to thE! men and to the women of this Province, the Peckford Administration, the Tory Government, the administration which is presently trying to run this Province is saying, as it says in Hansard, Mr. Speaker, on L2892: 11 I also beliE!Ve that we need more mothers. 11 This is an absolute slur.

This is not just the Minister of Social Services, this is the Peckford Administration saying, 11 I also believe that we need more mothers, 11 and the tone! Hansard misses the tone, Hansard misses the venom, Hansard misses the full No. 58 R3120

impact of this slur which the Peckford Administration is placing on the mothers in this Province who have to go out and work or the ones who go out by choice. Whether they have to go out or not is totally irrelevant, Mr. Speaker. What, Mr. Speaker, is the Peckford Administration saying? When the hon. the Minister of Social Services speaks, the Peckford Administration can wiggle all they J.ike .

They can put up the Minister of Justice, they can put up the Premier, but until they take the final step and force the Minister of Social Services to resign, they are saying, on L2892, 11 0ur correctional centers in Newfoundland today are full. They are bursting at the seams. 11 Why? Because mothers go out and go to work. MR . HEARN: He did not say that . MR . DECKER: That is exactly what the Peckford Administration is saying. The Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) can squirm all he likes, but as long as he sits :in the same seat as thE!

MinistE!r of Social Services, 11 0ur correctional cente!rs in Newfoundland today are full. They are bursting at the seams. 11 MR. J. CARTER: Lies, that is a lie . AN HON. MEMBER: It is dead wrong. MR . DECKER: The hon. minister is accusing me of lying. I assume he can read the written word. The hon. Minister of Social Services speaks for the government. He is the one who speaks on social services L3121 June 10, 1987 Vol XL matters, Mr.

Speaker and as long as he sits in · that Cabine!t, it ·. is the Peckford Government which says that our correctional institutions are filled with the children of mothers who are working. That is what the Peckford Administration is saying, Mr . Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear·! MR. DECKER: Now, Mr. Speaker, we go up to Ottawa, if this particular motion was passed in this House and if it is not amended. It goes up with the Peckford Administration instructing its minister. They had to instruct this minister, Mr. Speaker. How, in the name of goodness, can a minister get up without following instructions?

I could see some backbencher E!Ven getting up and speaking without instructions, but I certainly could not see a minister. The minister is saying, Mr. Speaker, in R2892, that, 11 As one minister in Canada, 11 and, of course!, whe!n he says as one minister in Canada, he is committing his government . Let us enlarge on it. As one government in Canada, Mr. Speaker. So the word is going out to Ottawa, the word is going out to all the world, that Newfoundland believes that the place for the mother is in the kitchen, that the place for women is in the kitchE!n, Mr.

Spe!akE!r, as my co lleague said, barefoot and pregnant. Let us put an apron on her, Mr . Speaker, let us give her the scrubbing tub, let us give he!r the scrubbing brush, and let us give her the mop . This is what they are saying. Mr. Speaker, expect them No. 58 what else to say? would There you WE!rE! R3121

supposedly a lot of surprised people in Newfoundland and in Canada because the Minister of Social Seruices made this statement. I, Mr. Speaker, was not the least bit surprised. Let me tE!ll this hon. House that thE!re are 3 5, 000 people in Newfoundland who uoted for the Liberal Party in the last election. They were not one bit. surprised either, Mr. Speaker, because what we haue here is a uery cJ.ear indication of the difference between Tory philosophy and Liberal philosophy, Mr. Speaker. Tory philosophy belongs in the 1700 1 s. Tory philosophy belongs in the Charles Dickens nouels.

Tory phiJ.osophy does not belong in this latter half of the Twentieth Century, Mr. Speaker. So I was not the least bit surprised when the Minister of Social Seruices got up and spoke for the Premier and spoke for the Minister of Justice and spoke for the Minister Responsible for the Status of Women, and spoke for the Gouernment · House Leader, and the Minister of Education and the whole works of them, Mr. SpeakE!r, because he was expounding Tory phiJ.osophy, and he did a good job of it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. J . CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A point of order, the hon. the member for St. John 1 s North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, I do not mind the hon. gentleman saying what he has to say, euen though I think some L3122 June 10, 198'7 Vol XL of it. is quite the other hand, to moderate microphones in adequatE!. libeJ.ous, he should his tone. but, on be able The t.hi s House are I realize, wit.h thE! new lE!adE!r in the House, he is, perhaps, showing off, trying to make an impression, hoping that in the unlikely euent that the opposite party should euer form the gouernment, somet.:ime in the next millennium, he might. be able to sleaze his way into a Cabinet post. But, Mr.

SpE!aker, it is unnecessary for him to s h out , and I wo u 1 d as k y o u to c a 11 him to order. MR. SIMMONS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : To that point of order, the hon . the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIMMONS: So as not to take up my colleagues time as that would be playing into the hands of the gentleman from St. John 1 s North, I giue him notice that at the appropriate time we are going to deal with his deliberate filibustering so my colleagues cannot make their points. MR. J. CARTER: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Greening) : Further to that point of order. MR. J. CARTER: I suggest that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Simmons) entertain us with a light-hearted joke. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is No. 58 R3122

no point of order. The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I know what . is going on in this House. We all knotAJ what. is going on. We have seen it before, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in conclusion, I am going to say that I beJ.ieVE! that we should support this motion as put by the hon. member now that we have dressed it up, now that we have taken the political partisaness out of it. But, if this final amendment had not been added, tf it is not passed, we are going to see the government in quite a predicament. If this motion is passed without our amendment, Mr.

Speaker, here is the predicament that the government is going to find itself in: They have two choices. They either vote against this motion as presented, and keep the minister in the seat . . 'This is the choice without this motion being amended. They can vote against the motion and keep the present CabinE!t as it is or, Mr. Speaker, they have to vote for the motion and ask the Minister of Social Services to resign. That is what they must do. Now that is the way the motion stood before we came to their assistance. Mr.

Speaker, we do not want ourselves to look like an absolute total bunch of fools down here if this thing goes to Ottawa. We are saying, "AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that because of the refusal of the minister to retract or apologize for the statements made by him in the House" of Assembly, 11 this House repudiates the Ministers statements." If the L3123 June 10, 1987 Vol XL minister does not have the decency to stand up here and apologize himseJ.f, surely goodness, if we have any respect for this Chamber, then we are going to see that these words are not allowed to stand.

So we are giving hon . members a way out, we;! are he1ping the hon. the Premier out of his dilemma because he cannot support the motion as it present1y stands, before the amendment, because to support that wou1d mean that he would go against his Mintster of Socia1 ServicE!S, so hE ! would have to ask him to resign. But we are softening it, we are giving him a way out, Mr . Speaker. We are saying, since the minister will not resign, then the House is going to do it for him. And I believe, Mr.

Speake!r, that that is a proper way out of this dilemma that the Minister of Social Services put the government into and, by imp1ication, put this House into. Mr. Speaker, thank you very much . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to start off by saying, to put the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle 1 s (Mr. Decker) mind at ease, we will not be voting for the sub-amendment. However, Mr.

Speaker, I should say to the hon. gentleman also, it was only recent1y they elected a new No. 58 R3123

' leader. I am just wondering what is the policy of their new leader towards women's issues? As the hon. gentleman has said in the past, hE! is speaking ouer there just now for the party. Is he also speaking for his new leader? AN HON. MEMBER : Yes . .MR. WARR~_I~~: Time wil1 te11 if the has changed his mind. tell, Mr. Speaker. new lE!ader Time will Mr. Speaker, let mE! just begin by saying that for the last two weeks in this hon. House we were talking about day care. Mr . Speaker, all of a sudden -· AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Tell jokes . MR. WARREN: No, Mr.

Speaker, I from the hon. member night, I do not want more. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: heard jokE!S last Friday to hE:~ar any On a point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon . the Leader of the Opposition MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker will agree, I told a marvelous joke about 12 Downing Street, but this is not the time to rete!ll it. What I would like to talk about - MR. PEACH : You wouJ.d not tell it here, would you? MR. SIMMONS: L3124 JunE! 10, 1987 Vol XL Yes, with great Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). MR.

SIMMONS: delight, My uersion of it, not gentleman's uersion of it. Mr . thE! Mr. Speaker, on my point of order, the gentleman for Torngat has, in his usual fine Disraeli, Gladstone, Churchillian style, thrown out a challenge that we cannot pass up, Mr. Speaker. The Liberal Leader is in our presence. If he is so anxious to hear the uiew of the Liberal Leader, if he does not take our word that we are reflecting the Liberal Leader • s uiew, then he can haue it firsthand this uery minute.

All he need do is persuade his colleagues to inuite the gentleman who is the Liberal Leader to come before the Bar of the House and speak to the House on women's issues. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HEARN: To that point of order, Mr. Speake!r. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon . the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN : First of ail, I submit it is not a point of order. Secondly, the gentleman from Torngat Mountains just asked thE! question, 'Is the speaker from the Strait of Belle Isle representing the uiews of his party as he indicated the Minister of Social Seruices was? • A uery good question.

He also asked, 'Is the member representing the policy of the new leader? • That is a No. 58 R3l24

very good question, and the new leader will get to come in here when one of the members over there is forced to resign and he runs in his place . MR. SPEAKER : To that point of order, therE! is no point of order . The han. the member for Torngat Mountains . MR. WARREN : I would say to the hon. gentleman opposite that maybe after our emergency caucus meeting tomorrow night, the hon. gentleman may have his chance. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: I tell hon . gentlemen opposite, you do not have to cast the dice to see who is going to have to resign. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us get back to day care.

In the last couple of days I took the opportunity to look for every private member 1 s resolution that was brought into the House of Assembly since 1975. I will table them from year to year as I go through. Let us look at day care and women 1 s issues: 1.975-76 none; 1977 none; 1978 none; 1979, the last session, none. Not one private member 1 s resolution on day care or women 1 s issues. In 1980 thE!re were none!; 1981 none; 1982 none; 1983 none; 1984 none! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Nineteen eighty-five, yes. MR. SIMMS: L3125 June 10, 1987 Vol XL Who? MR. WARREN : Milton Peach, Carbonear .

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: What side is Milton Peach on? Mr . Speaker, the first resolution on day care to bE! brought into this House was brought in by a member on the governrnE!nt side. NinetE!en eighty-six, yes. Where? The Straight of Belle Is le!? No. Try again. One more try. The · socialists? No. Mr. Greening. Where is he from? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Where are the issues? Mr . Speaker, 1987, yes. MR. HEARN: St. John 1 s East? MR. WARREN: St. John 1 s East Extern! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: He is the member, Mr. Speaker . There are three, Mr. Speaker.

Now, what about wornen 1 s issues? The hon. the member for St. John 1 s East brought in a resolution on wife battering. That is the only resolution concerning women 1 s issues that has been brought in here by a member on the other side in the last fifteen years. What d1 .d our socialist friends do in the last threE.~ or four years? Did the leader of the Socialist. Party bring in a resolution on day No. 58 R3125

care or on women 1 s issues 1986? No. He asked 1E!ave introduce a bill to amend PubJ.ic Service Act, probably get more money in his coffers. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FENWICK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! tn to the to The hon. the member for Menihek on a point of order. MR. FENWICK: At the time, if the member remembers, I introduced six different bills, one of which was on women 1 s issues, which, as the member very conveniently forgot, wer·e ruled out of order· by Your· Honour. Unfortunately, the ruJ.es do not allow for any more than one order at a time. MR.

SPEAKER: To that paint of order, there is no point of order. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, what about last year? Did the Leader of the Socialist Party in this Province bring in a resolution on day care? SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. MR. WARREN: What did he bring a resolution in on? MR. FENWICK: I did. I did. MR. WARREN: Against jobs in Labrador. the issue you brought in. tell the hon. gentleman L3126 June 10, 1987 That is Let me opposite Vol XL that never, as long as NewfoundJ.and has been a Province of Canada, have we had a Social Services Minister m