PRELHUNARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT House of Assembly For the period: 3:00 - 6:00 p.m. February 16, 1977

February 16, 1977 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR.. SPEAKER: Order! Tape no. 321 STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: Page 1 - mw The han. }tinister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform the House today of ~~rJ;ain projects sponsored by the Department of Forestry and Agriculture under the Provincial Job Creation Programme. I have listed the regions in brief. I have an attachment here showing in detail all the programmes that we plan to carry out.

In the Labrador area we have two projects at Goose Bay involving acquisition of timber needed for facilities associated with our fire control centre at Otter Creek, and the harvesting of cones for future reforestation programmes. In the Western region we have five projects, at Pasadena, Sops Arm, St. George's, Cormack and Roddickton. These projects range from pre-commercial thinning and site preparation for planting to the construction of helicopter pads at our ranger stations for forest fire suppression and other related activities.

In the Central region 1 ten projects, at Glenwood, Bay d'Espoir, Birchy Bay, Botwood, Gambo, No~ris Arm and Gander Bay. These projects include site preparation, pulpwood salvage and cleaning of flooded shorelines, in addition, roadside improvements in the area from Jumpers Brook to Grand Falls, Springdale Junction West and the Port Anson road near Robert's Arm. In the Eastern region we have three projects in the Argentia Access Road 7 Salmonier area, Port Blandford area and the Lethbridge area. These projects cover roadside improvement and forestry thinnings.

The twenty projects in total will provide employment for various periods for 254 people, representing approximately 15,400 man-days, and will cost $557,000. The projects are all geared to our present operational plan, our present forest improvement policies of the 890

February 16, 1977 Tape no. 321 Page 2- mw _Mr • • faynard. government. Most of the work will start on the projects immediately. I will have enough copies for all the members of the hon. House, listing in detail each of the projects and how many people will be employed on each of them. 891

February 16, 1977 Tape 322 IB-1 PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fortune-Hermitage. MP .• J. WINSOR: ¥r. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf - actually there are seven petitions - on behalf of tune Bay. These communities are Harbour - Mille, Little Harbour East, Little Bay East, Grand Le Pierre, St. Bernard's, Jacques Fontaine and Bay L'Argent. As all the prayers of these petitions are pretty well identical I will read the first one that is listed here. "We, the undersigned, feel that "'Te are justified in asking for a firm commitment w1th regards to the completion of upgrading and subsequent paving of the

section of road from the Burin Peninsula - Hi~hway to Harbour Mille,connecting the communities of Jacques Fontaine, St. Rernard's, Bay L'Argent, Little Bay East, Little Harbour East and Harbour Hille. We feel that there is still some upgrading to be done with regards to widening the road in certain areas, ditching, taking into consideration that school buses are covering the entire length of the highway on a regular basis. lve place special emphasis on the need for guardrails in certain dangerous places.

This being done~we feel that the next course of action should be to pave the road since the major portion has been upgraded for some time now. '~ve firmly believe that your government should seriously consider our petition and make the necessary commitment to carry out the aforementioned suggestions at the very earliest." In supporting this petition I should like to point out that the recent publicity given this particular area of my rlistrict by the Harbour }~ille group that ~ve are all very much aware of, applies quite the same to all the rest of theM.

And I am afraid that if we do not get something done in this area that these people too wjll be up in arms as the Harbour Mille people were. I have very much pleasure in supporting these petitions, Mr. Speaker, and I ask that they be placed upon the table of the House and referred to the department to which they relate. 892

February 16, 1977 Tape 322 SO'ME HON. MEMBERS : Fear, hear! ¥.R. SPEAKER: }~_. NEARY: The hon. member for LaPoile. ¥r. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to support IB-2 the prayer of the seven petitions presented by the hon. member for Fortune-Hermitage (:tA"r. J. Hinsor), representing 947 of his constituents in the connnunities of Harbour 'Hille, Little Farbour East, Little Bay East, Grand Le Pierre, St. Bernard's, Jacques Fontaine and Bay L'Argent. Mr.

Speaker, it is my understanding that a firm commitment was made to the people in these communities by the administration, but for some reason or other unkno~m to the people in the area, all of the sudden the equipment ,.,ras withdrawn from the area. Now, Sir, ~re have another example of an unkept promise by the administration. It is not good enough, Sir, the way that these people have been treated in these communities. Mr.

Speaker, we saw before our very eyes in living colour recently on television the hazard that is being created in·the Harbour Mille area because there are no guardrails on the road, especially for the protection of school buses that go over that road every day. It is a safety hazard, Sir, and it is a wonder, and it is only probably due in large measure to the caution exercised by the drivers of these buses, there has not been one of these buses go off the road and a bus load of children either drowned or killed.

It is not good enough, Sir, and I call upon the administration now to fulfill that promise that they have made to the people in these seven communities. So it gives me great pleasure, Mr. Speaker, to support the prayer of the petition. SOME RON. ¥E}"BEPS : Hear, hear! 893

February 16, 1977 Tape 323 PK- 1. MR. SPEAKER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MAYNARD: Are there any further petitions? ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to a question asked by the bon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe) some days ago, I think it was on the Order Paper, regarding the number of locations of strategically located experimental farms as indi~ated in a campaign speech October, 1971.

The answer is: We have set up three experimental farms since 1972 1 One is a resource centre at Pynn's Brook, which now serves as an educational facility for farmers and staff. It accommodates the Western swine breeding station. Also it accommodates an equipment bank, and is the site for experimental trials and crop production. We also•have our regional offices on that site. In 1973 the development of a potato seed farm was started at Glenwood for the purpose of producing certified seed potatoes for Newfoundland farmers, to demonstrate the potato production techniques.

And in Victoria, Carbonear a sheep · breeding station has been under development since 1974 for the purpose of producing breeding stock and training entrance into sheep production. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a question in the absence of the Premier, and the Government House Leader, Perhaps I could address my question either to the President of the Council or to the Minister of Finance, whoever is the senior minister representing the administration in the House at this time.

I ask the Minister of Finance, I am not sure whether the Premier is in the Province or not. Well whoever should appropriately answer the questions, Sir. Have the government received any request or representation from the Mayor or the Council of St. John's with respect to assistance to the city in the situation caused by the present lawful~ strike of the outside workers at the Municipal Council? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister. ''- 894

February 16, 1977 Tape 323 PK- 2 DR. T. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, the answer to that question is, no, Sir. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: I thank the hon. gentleman. Given the fact that at present the situation is one of, at most, inconvenience, but it may easily become one of serious inconvenience or even great·, great problems, can the hon. gentleman tell us whether the government are prepared to respond to such a request from the city? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister. DR. T. FARRELL: Well,at the moment, Mr.

Speaker, I think it is hypothetical, But I would like to say to the han. Leader of the Opposition that there have been discussions in case of emergencies, and when that time comes I think we will have some plans to assist in whatever way possible. I should add perhaps that this strike is legal, and perhaps my hon. colleague, the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations might like to add something to that. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman's colleague, the Minister of Manpower is not in his seat,although he was in the House earlier on.

But granted the fact the strike is lawful, as ---1--I said at first, could the minister tell us wi hom_th discussions were held, or more particularly,~they held in recent days_? -------- MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister. DR. FARRELL: Oh, yes. Mr. Speaker, these discussions were all internal with the administration. MR. ROBERTS: Oh they were not - there were no disussions with the Council? DR. FARRELL: Oh,no not outside, among our own selves. MR. ROBERTS: Yes. DR. FARRELL: No,not with the Council, no,with the administration. 895

February 16, 1977 Tape 323 PK - 3 MR. ROBERTS: Not with the Cabinet, the Executive Council. DR. FARRELL: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Terra Nova followed by the bon. gentleman from LaPoile. MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, a question for the bon. Minister of Finance. With respect to the - teachers' pension, a matter of ' grave importance now, insomuch as that if this thing is not resolved in a satisfactory manner, pretty quickly we will have a Province-wide teachers' strike.

And I am wondering if the minister can inform the House as to why the government are so insistent and so determined to bring about a change in the wording of the teachers' pension? And I am not exactly informed as to what the wording is, but I think it is a matter that the pension may not be altered without consultation with the teachers. I think it read previously, without the consent of teachers, now it is to read, with consultation with teachers. And I am wondering if the minister can inform the House as to why the government are so insistent and so determined in bringing about this change? 89fi

February 16,1977 Tape 324 AH-1 MR. SPE.AY..ER: Han. Minister of Finance. 1-1R. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, at the risk of being boring and tedious and repetitious I will go through it again for the benefit of the han. member. Yesterday I explained at some length, I thought,and in some detail to OO'_e of the han. members opposite ~.;rho asked very much the same question.

The first part of the question, I think was why is governmant so concerned about the change in the language at this particular point The answer to that,as was given yesterday and has been given,is the fact that right now we are only asking for one change in the language of the act and that is that we ask for the right-of the collective agreement. We are asking for the right of consultation on the level of benefit that should be paid by the teachers into the fund, I we are not asking that the amount of premium that has been paid by the teachers into the fund.

I think it is an average now of about 4 per cent, maybe a little less than that. Right nm:.;r the teachers have the right of veto on - ~~~t_. They c~m say "He -1_Jay no more or we pay whatever" and that is the way the present agreement reads. ~\Te have asked that that be changed to consultation The need~or our urgency,as was asked yesterday, or why government is so insistant on it,as it is being asked today, has been explained on rn2nv , occasions and we will try it again.

The fact is that it is a nension fund , that the people of the province of Ne~vfoundland, the taxpayers, are ultimately going to be responsible for the payment of the pension from that fund,and we feel that it is only right and proper that the people of the province of Newfoundland should have some say in how that fund is established and what the premiums are paid into it. The

preamble to the question spoke about the imminence of a strike, and the fact that there was a strike on the way and so on. I think that is presumptuous. -We have not received any notification of a strike, we have not been told of the results of a vote than is 897

February 16,1977 Tape 324 All-2 HR. DOODY: now under way as I understnad it. If the event should occur that there is a rejection of the conciliation board's recommendation, the majority re-port of the conciliation board, Hhich is what governments position is, plus some added things which government has put in since, if the NTA membership reject the conciliation board's report and government offer, then certainly I have no doubt that the NTA will be back and we will sit down and have another cracl~ at the thing.

But to say that there is going to be a strike iminent tomorrow, there is a strike brewing, you knmo1, it just is not so, it is not true. Fe are waiting for the results of the teacher's vote on 'tV'hat the offer is right nm.;r. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. HR. ROBERTS: I will yield to my colleague from Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: To make it explicitly clear~! again want to ask the hon. minister,did I gather from his answer that the only reason t'hat the government are seeking this change r' is so that the government may control the rate of premiums, as opposed to other benefits _... under the pension schemer i·fR.

SPEAKER: The hon. minister. }ffi. DOODY: There are two items once again that were raised, Number one,is that the government is not asking for the right to control the rate of payment, The government is asking for the right of consultation as to the level of what the payments into the fund should be. Right now the government has no say;the veto power is in the hands of the NTA. And the other part of your question 'tV"as the level of change of benefits. There is no other change of benefits suggested. Everything else remains exactly as it is.

We are not asking that the retirement age be changed,or that the benefits be put on the same level as the general service agreement~or that any other changes be made in the pension act. We are simply asking for a say in the level of payments into the fund, That power we do not hnve This is entirely in the hands of the NTA right now,and they are very reluctant, I understand, to give up that power. 898 now.

February 16, 1977 Tape No. 325 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER: A su~plementary. MR. ROBERTS: Hr. S1Jeaker, I a.Dl .not sure the minister is answering the question because I for one am not able to follow it. Let me accordingly ask him this. Are ~ve correct in understanding that the present situation with res~ect to the teachers' pension plan which exfsts under

an act of the Legislature,! assume,but is also part and parcel of the agreement - _it is part of the collective agreement between the government and the school boards on one hand, and the NTA representing the teachers on the other hand - that under that collective agreement the premium rate, the rate at which a teacher pays into the pension fund, whic~ I believe is four per cent, as the minister said, that that rate is now determined jointly by negotiation between the NTA on one . hand and on the other the employer~,including for this sense the government? MR.

DOODY: It cannot be changed without consulting the - MR. ROBERTS: The minister is saying the same thing another way around,that i t cannot be changed without the consent of both parties. It cannot be changed equally ~Yithout the consent of the schoolboards, who are their employers at law, and the government who pay the shot. And so is the minister then saying that what the government want is the right to change that without the consent of the NTA, in other words unilaterally. Consultation, Mr.

Speaker, is the ~"ord the minister has used,but consultation does not necessarily - it is like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder. It does -not necessarily imply anything beyond saying, "Well we would like to change it, what do you say?' · Then the NTA say, "We do not think you should change it." Do the government then have the right still to change it unilaterally? That is ,the question, and could the minister address himself to that, Sir, I wonder? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Finance.

February 16, 1977 Tape No. 325 NM- 2 MR. DOODY: I think that I have addressed myself to it,and it is in the

interpretation ,of course ., as the hon. Leader of the Opposition has said, it is very much in the eye of the beholder or the ear of the interpreter. Our vie~v of consultation is that t"tvo responsible groups of ueople sit dmm jointly and work out what appears to be a reasonable,and seems to then to be a reasonable solution to a problem which may arise some years down the line. If that is to be interpreted as dictatorial or as a one-sided process then of course the word "consult" should probably be striken from the dictionary~because it serves no purpose.

Our idea of consultation has been the same sort of arrangement that we have been able to work out with the NTA over the past years since this administration has taken office,and they have been a very meaningful and a very worthwhile series of consultations that have resulted in substantial benefits both in the pension plan and the level of income and in the general standards of the teaching profession generally, that we would like to see that same sort of level of consultation continued with the same sort of meaningful and helpful results to both sides.

Right now, under the terms of the present collective agreement,there can be no consultation. We are completely at the mercy of the language of that particular

section of the collective agreement. As I say,how it eventually turns out, what eventually develops, will be determined after the vote comes in and after the next series of discussions take place. MR. ROBERTS: A further supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. HR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I am not allowed to debate the minister's answer, except I should maybe put it down for the Late Show -· tomorrow,because the minister still has not made it clear; it is now bilateral, it takes two parties to agree and what the minister seems to be saying is he wishes the power to rest in the government, 900

Feburary 16, 1977 Tape No. 325 NM- 3 MR. ROBERTS: to do it unilaterally after a consultative process. But that is not my supplementary, Sir. My sunplementary is this; have the government had made a study to indicate whether or not the rates of premiums now paid into the funds, together with the interest that would accrue thereon in respect of that capital, will be sufficient to cover the foreseeable liabilities? In other words, Sir, an actuarial study. The han. Minister Clf Finance. ~~~~~~~-~o, there has not been really a legitimate actuarial study done as yet. Obviously there has to be one done.

There was a brief from the NTA last year on which they based their arguments and on which ~.;re had a cursory look at by a recognized firm of chartered accountants who gave us some advice. But there has been really no definitive or positive actuarial study either on that pension plan or on others. There is no question at all in the . mind~ of this administration that the pension funds generally of the public service have got to be looked at far more closely than they have in the past. It has been an area of neglect and one that we are going to have to address ourselves to.

I think that it is something that is long overdue~ and it is not only the teachers' pension fund. There are pension funds generally that have to be looked at and looked at in a reasonable and sensible light. They have been treated,I think, far too .901

February 16, 1977, Tape 326, Page 1 -- apb MR. DOODY: lackadaisically in the past, just accepted contributions to general revenue and with a guarantee of payment. I have no doubt that that guarantee is good and the payments will be met and have to be met. But as the han. Leader has suggested, and as others have already, and we have discussed this at some length, it has to be done on a far more scientific and more businesslike manner than it has been done ~n the past. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance, Sir, the President of the Treasury Board. I should like to ask the minister if he would tell the House what law firm or what lawyer represe~ted the bond purchasers in the recent $50 million bond issue that · was floated by the government~ What firm in Newfoundland,or what lawyer,represented the bond purchasers? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DOODY: The hon. the Minister of Finance. I do not know the name of the lal~ firm. The law person who was engaged by the syndicate, by the people who handle the sale of the bonds in Europe, was Mr. Roberts Wells.

The name of the law firm is Wells, Something, Something and Something. I am not up on terminology or the name of the law firm, but Mr. Wells was the Lawyer who was hired by the syndicate, the sales people. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the minister indicate to the House if the government brought any influence to bear on the syndicate to hire the law firm or to hire Mr. Wel l s as the lawyer, the local lawyer, to represent the bond purchasers? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister· ·of Finance. MR. DOODY: I am absolutely amazed at the question, Your Honour.

Of course, we could not possible bring pressure to bear on such a group of international and renowned and very, very independent and capable business people. This practice / 902

i February 16, 1977, Tape 326, Page 2 -- apb MR. DOODY: is absolutely unheard of and would never be even imagined in any civilized society. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. minister indicate to the House if this practice of hiring a lawyer who is supporting the government, a former minister, conforms with the policy that was laid down by the administration ~¥hen they ~ere campaigning back in -1971 and 1972, that they were going to do away with this sort of conflict of interest? Is this in keeping wi th the policy of the administration? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: In the first place, Sir, I think that conflict of interest thing should be stricken out of the question because, obviously, in my opinion there is no conflict of interest. As to government's policy in this matter,it is our policy to hire the most competent people 'I that we can. We would hope that the firms with whom we do business hire the most competent and capable people that they can.

If it so happens that this very competent and capable person is also intelligent enough to be a supporter of this government, then certainly that is all to his credit and certainly a tribute to his good taste and intelligence. Certainly his ability has never been in question and I for one would never question it. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, · I wonder if the hon. the Minister of Finance would indicate to the House ~hat fee Mr. Wells received in return for the services that he provided in this particular bond issue? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. MR.

DOODY: That was one of the ~uestions, I think, raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition yesterday. In terms of the bond issue the people who are looking after it on behalf of government, the Deputy Minister of Finance and the 00'1 '->VJ

February 16, 1977, Tape 326, Page 3 -- apb MR. DOODY: Assistant Deputy Minister and the representative of the Department of Justice have not yet returned from their European safari, but much to my amazement they managed to carry off this great financial coup without my assistance and without my presence. I am sure the people in Paris are very disappointed about the fact that I could not make it but nevertheless they seem to be struggling through. So I do not have that information and I will not until they return to the Province. They are in _ trans~t somewhere between Paris, London, Gander and St.

John's and then the snow storm. But as soon as I find out, or if I find them, I will get the information and when I get the information I will answer the hon. the Leader's question and then he perhaps might, du'ring one of your little confabs, pass it on to you. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member with the original line of questioning on a supplementary? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask -the Minister of Finance if Mr. Richard Greene, the former bagman of the P.C.Party,has been notified that his services are no longer required in connection with government bond issues, and when was it? MR.

DOODY: To the best of my knowledge, Sir, we have not notified any~ody that their services are no longer required either as bagman or as lawyers. I think that both serve a very ·useful function in society and both have been known to play a very prominent

part in the activities of the political life generally. We have not sent notices to anybody that their services will not be required. I cannot say that Mr. Greene's s-ervices ·will not -be required, perhaps they will be sometime in the future. Who knows, we may even have to take Mr. Curtis or Mr. Dawe out of retirement and send them off on one of these journeys, but I am not in a position to make these judgements.

February 16, 1977 Tape no. 327 Page 1 - mw Mr. Doody. We find the best t alent available, but it is up to the syndicate to hire whom they want, and they hire them whenever they want to hire them. You know, I am certainly not going to dictate to Ames and these people. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speak~r ,_ a fu;-t_her __ supplemE~_ntary. MR. SPEAKER: A further supplementary. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: I only wish the Minister of Finance were under oath in this proceeding. But, Mr. Speaker, my question relates to the activities of his deputy and the assistant deputy, who I assume is Mr.

Warriner, and whatever other officials of the Minister of Justice attended the bond closing in Paris~which by the way is ~perfectly proper procedure . to do - could th:_ minister tell us whether all of the expenses incurred by these officials, all of the expenses incurred by these officials, are paid by the Government of the Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: No, I really cannot. As I say,I have not seen them since they came back. I certainly know that their travel and their hotel bills and so on are paid by the government.

It may very well be that a dinner was laid on by Credit Commercial de France,by Ames or by some of the other underwriters, and I have no doubt that perhaps Mr. Warriner or Mr. Martin and the repr~sentative of the Department of Justice may very well have been invited guests at such a function. MR. ROBERTS: I am not talking about that. MR. DOODY: Well then the expenses of getting there and getting -- bac.k and so on are paid for by the Province of Newfoundland. MR. ROBERTS: What did they travel, economy or first-class? MR. DOODY: Overseas, first-class, I think. MR. ROBERTS: First-class, overseas. MR.

DOODY: I think so, yes. Certainly the ministry do. 905

i February 16, 1977 Tape no. 327 Page 2 - mw MR. ROBERTS: These are not ministers. These are deputy ministers. MR. DOODY: I do not know. I honestly do not know. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: A question to the hen. Minister of Transportation ~d Communications. I refer him to page ninety-six of the Auditor General 1 s Report,'· ·~xpenditures without legislative appropriation;~ referring to payments totalling $28,820 made to consultants for services -- rendered in connection with a revision of the organization and operations of the department.

I wonder if the minister could tell me ---what wer~the nature of these revisions and organization in his department? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I will take that question under advisement. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SliEAKER: A supplementary. }ffi.. HODDER: I wonder if the minister hap seen the Auditor General's Report yet. This is the second question I have asked on the - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The hen. gentleman was recognized to ask a supplementary, but not to sort of debate directly or indirectly the minister's answer. Does the hon. gentleman wish to rephrase his question? MR.. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker - MR.. SPEAKER: Go ahead. He does not wish to rephrase his question. The hen. member for Eagle River,followed by the gentleman for LaPoile. MR. STRACHAN: and Energy. Mr. Mr.

Speaker, a question for the Minister of Mines (, .. ·~ Speaker, I am diffi ulty checking the accuracy of ., the minister's statement made here in the House yesterday concerning the energy conservation proposal between the federal government and the government of this Province. I am wondering whether the minister would let us know whether he intends to table attachments A B and C, because we only have attachment D here, and we cannot check the 906

February 16, 1977 Tape no. 327 Page 3 - mw Mr. Strachan. accuracy of the proposal unless we have these attachments tabled in the House. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr.

Strachan ) will find out from the clerks of the House, the officers of the House, --\ matte~ before the hon. because of the urgency of getting this House, I was only able to have two attachments, but on the original statement that I !ead from, , attached to it was all the other attachments which I assumed the officers of the House would get copies of for the enlightenment of hon. members. MR. ROBERTS: They have not been distributed. MR. STRACHAN: They have not been distribu~ed. MR. PECKFORD: So I would just ask Mr. Speaker if it is possible for the officers of the House to provide that information? MR..

SPEAKER: Order, please! Any~hing that is tabled, it is the clerk and his associates who are responsible for its distribution. MR. STRACHAN: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. STRACHAN: Is the minister saying that he then tabled attachments A, B, and C, that they were tabled yesterday? MR. PECKFORD: I think that is what the hon. member can take from my statement, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A question for the Minister of Fisheries, Sir.

Could the minister tell the House what steps, if any, his department ~or the government have taken to deal with this very serious and urgent matter of seal meat, large portions of seal meat being left -on the ice in various parts of the Province at the present time? ': 907

February 16, 1977 Tape 328 IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. lfinister of Fisheries. MR. W. CJLRTER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to tell the House that the officials of the Department of Fisheries,along with those ~f my .-\.---colleague, the }!inister of Industrial and Rural ~ initiated a pilot project in the Notre Dame Bay Development, have area where they are aimed at producing a top quality seal meat that we hope will be marketed through the various local retail outlets.

Officials of both departments have worked on this for quite some time and they are working with a company, Notre Dame Fisheries Limited, I think it is the Eveleigh Company in Comfort Cove,who are supplying certain wrapping materials and certain machinery. The company will be processing the meats. And maybe by next weekend,actually, we are hoping that by next weekend on the shelves of the local outlets in St. John's we hope there \..rjll be choice cuts of seal steak and roast. Like I said,it is being prepared under very, very extremely sanitary conditions.

The seals are being landed, eviscerated and frozen~or at least stuffed with ice,and later cut and bled and prepared,vacuum sealed in a very attractive package and sent to the various supermarkets. This, Mr. Speaker, is a beginning, ana we are working on other arrangements, my colleague and !,with respect to the processing of this very important meat. ¥aybe if this one works we will later, maybe this year, certainly next year, get involved in a more extensive processing capability when it comes to seal meat.

But like I said,by next weekend Newfoundlanders, certainly people in this area, should be able to buy seal meat properly packaged, properly wrapped, competitively priced and, like I said, all prepared with the help of both departments and the Notre Dame Fisheries Limited. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question to the minister, Sir. And I thank the hon. minister for the information. I did not real::!.ze when I asked the question that the two ministers had done their homework. Mr.

Speaker, in connection now with the cannery in Comfort Cove, I presume it is going to be reactivated as it has been closed down for some time? AN RON. MEMBER: No doubt • 90R

February 16, 1977 Tape 328 IB-2 MR. NEARY: Well the reports on radio or in the newspaper said i t was closed down, and I presume it is going to be reactivated now. But will the fishermen have to bring their carcasses, their meat, to the canning factory in Comfort Cove or will they have people go ~ around in trucks in the various places and pick it up? -Beca use \a lot of thi C c;,e-;i" meat is qui te a distance away as t he m1ni.ster knows. How will they_gg!_it to the cannery? ~. SPEAKER: The hon. ¥inister of Fisheries. MR. l-7. CARTEP..: Mr.

Speaker, it is not a simple matter when it comes to the processing of seal meat. They tell me that if a seal is pelted and the carcass left on the ice, that the fat apparently permeates the meat and just about spoils it. But to produce a top quality seal meat it must be delivered to the plant with the pelt still on, eviscerated, pelt on with ice in the enterior of the seal. I suspect that at the beginning fishermen will have to bring their seals to the plant.

But like I said,things are progressing and hopefully the whole operation can be expanded and maybe at some date in the future, and hopefully this year, the company will probably be able to go out and collect seals. But certainly it is a start and ,;~e believe that with the help that Y7e are giving that company that they can produce a top quality product and one that will be acceptable to most consumers in the city and other parts of the Province. :MR. NEA'RY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary to the original question? MR.

NEARY: Would the minister be in a position to tell the House just how long the carcass of meat will remain in top condition with the flipper on? How long, you know, how many days can the fishermen keep it if they pack it with ice and so forth? MR . W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I do not pretend to be an expert on seals or seal meat but I do not think it yrould last that long. Frozen seal meat ,I am told., can probably last for years. But this will not be fro zen, it will be chilled with ice, loose ice packed in the seal, in the cavity. 909 II

Febrtiary 16, 1977 Tape No . 328 IB - 3 PREMIER ?·fOORES: It v.rould last a fair while because it comes \in from a long distance. ~tR . 1\1" . CARTER: ~.Jell it would last quite a distance because the conditions under ~.rhich the seal has been killed and transported would prett ~.rell be ideal, I suupose, lo~ver temperatures. But as to the exact time I cannot answer that question. 910

1 February 16, 1977 Tape No. 329 NM- 1 !viR. SPEAKER : The hon. member for Fogo I believe has a su~lplementary. CAPT. ~,TINS OR: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. ~~- · SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo hes a supplementary. CAPT. HINSOR: ~1r. Speaker, will the minister inform the House what kind of seal is he talking about? It is certainly not the white coat. Is it the bedlamer, the bay seal, the netted seal? ~. FLIGHT: The Christmas Seal. CAPT. 1-H~SOR: '1-Ihen we are talking about fli-p-pers, Hr.

Speaker, I do not think the minister is trying to give the impression to the House that we are talking ,about the choice meat when we think of the flipper as we know them which is taken.from the carcus of the ~.J"hite coats. 1.R. LUNDRIGAN: Tut, tut, tut, tut, tut, tut. CAPT. t.JINSOR: Tut, Tut, Tut, I am asking the minister. MR. LUNDRIGAN: They are old seals. We all know that. CAPT. HINSOR: If they are old seals then they are not choice meat. This is my point. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Fisheries. ~1R. H.

CARTER: My advice to the hon. gentleman. is not to knock it until we have had a chance to prove it first. MR.. SPEAKER : The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. W. CARTER: That kind of a comment, Hr. Speaker, if I can finish the answer to the hon. member's question, that kind of a comment will add very little to the success of the project. MR. ROBERTS: Unless it happens to be a truthful one,unlike what the minister came up with' ~ ~. W. CARTER: Is the hon. Leader sug~esting, Hr. Speaker, that I am not telling the truth1 SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh! Oh! r1R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for \Vindsor - Buchans. 911

February 16, 1977 Tape No. 329 NM- 2 MR. WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR •. FLIGHT: I yield to the supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Or der, please! there is time for one further question. If the hon. gentleman wishe!=: t-.n yield, then the bon. member for Lewisporte with a supplementary. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, it is a supplementary in connection with this seal meat. I wonder if the minister would tell us whether or not rules and regulations are to be brought in to prohibit the selling of seal meat from the backs of trucks _and / -----=~~~~~~~-=~~=-~~~ other things such as that in St.

John's and other places ~11hich would ruin the market for this delicious, properly prepared seal meat from Notre Dame Bay. ~1R. MURPHY: Do not try to do away with Steers eave in my district. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MURPHY: The only industry I have. MR. SPEAKER: Or der, please! MR.. lv. CARTER : Mr. Speaker, the sale of flippers and seal meat from the backs of trucks I suppose is as old as the'industry itself.

Certainly I suppose the Department of Health have already looked at the requirements and the standards but I am not sure if we have any regulations at the moment that would prohibit the sale of flippers or meat. I am not even sure ~f we would want it. Like I said,it is an old and a very traditional custom in the city. SOME FON. MEMBERS : Hear! Hear! 000 MR.. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, before we go to Orders of the Day may I raise a point of privilege of the House.

I do not raise it ~--------- -- ~___. ------=~- in any censorious sense,but the Minister of Mines and Energy in answering a question asked by my colleague from Eagle River (Hr. Strachan) said quite specifically that certain letters had been tabled in the House yesterday, Sir. I have checked with the officers at the table and they·tell me that to the best of their knowledge, Sir, the specific letters were 912

February 16, 1977 Tape No. 329 NM- 3 MR. ROBERTS: not tabled. Now I do not raise that as I said in a censorious sense. What I ask the minister is can we have an assuranc ~ that the letters in question, which v1ere referred to ~vith attachements "A", "B" and "C" of his statement, v7ill be made available - I care not whether to the officers at the table or to tl·e Eouse at large -but will be made available as he said they would be? ~m. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, can I - MR. SPEAKER : I recognize the hon. member but I was just informed by the Clerk Assistant and this might inform both hon. gentlemen. { I knmv, ~1r.

Speaker, that t}J.e letters were \ MR. PECKFOPJ): tabled and that the Clerks hav.e found the relevant -documents \ referred to by the Leader of the LOpposition. ~1R. SPEAKER: I have just been informed by one of the officers --~~ t the table,and apparently it just came to their attention or they have just located it within the past minute or su, these particular items which it t-rould appear were tabled,and whether mislaid or put in the wrong file, that I cannot say. MR. ROBERTS: But they will be distributed now,will they? 11R. SPE~XER: They will be distributed. Yes. ORDERS OF THE DAY: :MR.

SPEAKER: Today being Private Members' Dav, motion one, the adjourned debate on that resolution, Debate ':Tas adjourned by the hon. member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir. SOME RON. :1:-mMBERS : Hear! Hear! MR. SIMMONS: ~rr. Speaker, the motion to which I would like to ~ddress myself for a few minutes was moved by my colleague from Eagle River C1r. Strachan) and I listened with great attention to what he had to say on the subject of the motion which reads in parts, "This House is gravely concerned with the state and sentiment of public opinion in Labrador." Mr.

Speaker, I am quite prepared to do a little talking if I could 913

February 16, 1977 Tape No. 329 NM - 4 m. SIMMONS: get rid of soi!l.'e' of the htim in the House. There are several meetings going on at the moment. MR. . SPEAKER: Otder, please! The hon. gentleman wishes to be heard in silence. MR . SIMMONS: As I was saying, Mr. Speaker, my colleague and friend from Eagle River moved a motion last week which says in part, "That the House ~vould express its grave concern over the state and sentiment of public opinion in Labrador,and further that the House would seek to appoint a Select · Cotmnittee to consider and study matters pertaining to the state and sentiment of public opinion in Labrador." The motion 914

February 16,1977 Tape 330 AH-1 MR. SIMHONS: moved by my colleague goes on to provide that the proposed select committee would~among other assignments, consider reports and recommendations that have been submitted to government over the years, receive briefs and representations from various organizations and individuals and agencies,and ~vould have authority to sit throughout the province and then ulitmately ~vould report its findings and recommendations hopefully to the House of Assembly and again, hopefully, for action.

As I say, I listened with great interest to what my friend from Eagle River had to say on the subject, as I did to those comments made by the subsequent speaker · the member for Naskaupi, I always find I listen to him with particular attention because as the only native-born Labradorian in these chambers, of course he brings to the debate, has the capability to bring to the debate a certain unique dimension.

I listened also with _ equal care to the following speaker, the member for Grand Falls , Industrial and Rural Development. the Hinister of As the fourth speaker in this particular debate,I hope only the fourth of many speakers because it is probably one of the more important issues we will consider during this session of the House and one of the more important issues we have considered, perhaps for a long time. AN RON. MEl.ffiER: You are speaking fourth. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, I am the fourth.

The_ Minister of Industrial and Rural Development was the third speaJier, after the member for ~askaupi and the member for Eagle River.And as I said,I hope I am just the fourth of many speakers on this subject because I am anxious to hear the views of the various members on this particular issue and,even more importantly 1 anxious to see what the resolution of this particular motion will be and whether or not we will indeed get a Select Connnittee appointed to address 915

February 16,1977 Tape 330 AH-2 :HR. STI1MONS: itself to the _pr_o_ble~-- Mr. Speaker, this topic, considered in the context of a debating vehicle,lends itself admirably to a fire and brimstone,free-for-all,rousing ~artisan type of debate.

As a political partisan I can call to mind all kinds of arguments to demonstrate that not enough has been done in Labrador: The meager municipal and community services alo~g the south and north coast of Labrador, the continuing physical isolation in those areas, the disposition of the Snowden Royal Commission Report concerning Labrador, the recent and abortive effort to launch a Labrador Development Corporation, the economic uncertainty prevalant in the Happy Valley-Goose Bay area, the lack of a service industry in the western part of Labrador, all these issues and a host of others, Mr.

Speaker, can be readily summoned to help make a partisan case. that not enough has been done in Labrador. At the same time and equally, Yr. Speaker, I recognize that the government benches contain no shortage of men who are quite capable of mounting a spirited defence of the administrations achievements and efforts in Labrador. There is no guarantee that the debate on this particular motion will not proceed along exactly those lines that I have just sketched.

With those of us on this side mounting a great litany of undone things in Labrador,and with those on the government side mounting an equally spirited defense of what has been achieved, there is no guarantee that will not happen. Let me say, Mr. Speaker, at the outsetli hope it does not happen. Should 'that become the case, I believe It will be not only a crying shamelbut much more significantly , I believe that kind of debate on this particular subject will do 916

February 16, 1977 Tape 331 n -1 Mr. Simmons: a very grave disservice, not only to the mover of the motion, but to the very intent of the motion, and an equally grave disservice to the concerns which this motion embodies, and an equally grave disservice to the people of Labrador, and let me go further, I believe an equally grave disservice to the future of this Province. The motion moved by my friend from Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) is a very simple motion, but at the same time a very important one. The wording of the motion is non-partisan. You will not find in any of the

preamble, indeed there is no

preamble for ' this very reason, you will not find any

preamble which condemns the government for what it has not done or which condemns the government for what it has done that it should not have done • . This motion is deliberately a very non-partisan motion in terms of its wording, and in terms of its intent. Because, Mr. Speaker, it is not the intent of the mover or the intent of any who support this motion,to clobber the government or to lay blame for the present situation in Labrador. So, Mr. Speaker, I hope that this debate will not become a shouting match across the House.

I hope it will not become an exercise in me-tooism, in which we line up in our respective groups according to party labels. I hope it will not be a shouting match, but rather a rational approach to a very serious situation. I hape it will not become an excerise over the next few Wednesdays, an exercise in scoring partisan points, but rather a much more worth-while exercise in comparing notes about our concerns, our respective concerns, our deeply felt concerns for Labrador. I hope, Mr.

Speaker, the debate which will extend today and probably over other Wednesdays, I hope it will not be a confrontation of opposing viewpoints, but rather an affirmation on the part of all of us to do together, to begin doing together some of the things that must be done in Labrador. 917

February 16, 1977 Tape 331 PK - 2 Mr. Simmons: As I have saidtthe motion is a very simple one. The motion asks only that the House appoint a Select Committee. A Select Committee, Mr.

Speaker, not another study, not a royal commission that is going to take months or years to complete, and then,in the tradition of royal commission reports no matter what government has appointed the commission, in the tradition of such reports to find itself on some shelf somewhere gathering dust while the problem continues, and escalates and aggravates. -The motion is not proposingsome royal commission or some . lorig~winded study. tfhat is is proposing, Yr.

Speaker, is a Select Committee, five, seven members of this House of Assembly who will go to Labrador and go . there fairly soon in the next three, five, in the next few weeks and listen to the people of Labrador so that the Committee can come back having listened and attest to the truth or otherwise contained in the statements in this resolution. 918

February 16, 1977 Tape 332 MR. SIMA:ONS: The people of Labrador cannot all come here to this House and make their concerns known, so let us take the House to the people of Labrador. Let us send five, seven, whatever number of people, to IB-1 Labrador to hear what the people have to say. You see, Yr. Speaker, it is this House and only this House which has the legislative pm-7er, the authority, to right some of the wrongs in Labrador. I "do not suggest for one moment, Jlfr. Speaker, that all the ills of Labrador can be corrected by legislation. But I do believe, Mr.

Speaker, that it is one of the beginning points, one of the very important beginning points. As I have said,we are the only people who can launch that kind of a beginning, a legislative beginning. We are the people Who can through legislation make the right decisions about Labrador while there is ti~~ to make them. ¥r. Speaker, I do not think we can make very intelligent decisions about Labrador if v7e continue to sit in St. John's as armchair experts. Indeed, Mr.

Speaker, I feel very strongly that a great part of the problem as it relates to Labrador is that too many of the decisions affecting Labrador have been made in ignorance and in St. John's. The Select Committee is our attempt to begin to change that process. A significant element in the Labrador issue I believe is the very diversity which exists within that great land mass. You would have to look far and wide across this hemisphere and indeed around the ~vorld to find comparable diversity represented among so relatively few people.

The 40,000 souls or so who have their home, their domicile in various parts of Labrador constitute an amazingly broad spectrum of economic station, of cultural background, of value system and of aspiration • . . Picture,for example, the unionized iron ore worker in Labrador City with a gross annual salary approximating $20,000,with access to a full range of municipal services as complete as available almost anywhere in the industrialized world. Compare him,if you would~or contrast his situation if you would, the situation of the iron worker, on the one hand,with the seasonal fisherman who spends his Su~~ers 91q

February 16, 1977 Tape 332 IB-2 MR. Sn¥.0NS: at Snug Harbour on the Coast of Labrador and his Winters at Norman Bay, a kerosene lamp as his only light source, his access to health services dependent on fair weather and the availability of an aircraft. Or consider the sometimes logger in Goose Bay,whose life pattern is a curipus mix of insecurity and apprehension because of the developing situation involving Labrador Linerboard,or the close out of the Ameriean base and other such blows to the economy of that area, 920

February 1b, 1977 Tape no.333 Page 1 - mw Mr. Simmons. and compare that would-be logger in Goose Bay to the electrician at Churchill Falls,just a scant few miles to the West, the electrician with relative af~].-~enc_e b11t .. ~1:- the __ same time a very stifling claustrophobia, a very real lack of roots compared to a logger in Goose Bay or the seasonal fishermen on the coast. Other comparisons could be made between those who live on the North Coast of Labrador and those who live on the South Coast. I am not suggesting, Mr.

Speaker, that the lot of the iron ore worker in Labrador City or Wabush is better than that of the seasonal fishermen,nor am I suggesting that the lot of the fishermen is better than that of the iron ore worker. Who are we here in St. John's to judge ·that the urban trappings of Wabush - Labrador City can in any way compensate for the uprooting from the ancestral homes of Trinity Bay or the Southwest Coast.

The Lion's Club member in Labrador City who goes to Hamilton, Ontario for his regional meeting is certainly operating in a very different world than the representative of the Inuit people in Nain who travels to Cambridge Bav for his meeting~ as did the late and highly esteemed Hartin I'artin of that corrnnunity accompanied, I believe, by the wife of the member for Eagle River ~rr. Strachan) a co~ple of years ago. But how different are the worlds.

Tne Inuit going off to Cambridge Bay, many miles North of Winnipeg, to have dialogue on problems which confronts him in his particular realm, and the Lion's Club member tripping off to Hamilton, Ontario to share with his particular fraternity. How different are the two worlds, and·how dramatic is the contrast when we think of it in that particular context. And yet these people at home occupy the same land mass, albeit a fairly large land mass, but these people are just two of a relatively small total number of people, two of about 40,000.

And so the contrast could go on, and we could continue to compare and to contrast the peoples who live in 921

February 16, 1977 Tape no. 333 Page 2 - mw 1-.ir. Simmons. various parts of Labrador, to point out how great is the diversity within Labrador. And as I have submitted a few moments ago, I believe that diversitv, which exists within Labrador, is a significant element in the complex issue which faces this Province insofar as Labrador and its future within the Province is concerned. In a thousand and one ways people in various parts of Labrador relate to very, very different worlds.

And many of these worlds are strikingly unlike, very unlike, dramatically unlike the set of circumstances to which we relate here on the Island of Newfoundland, all of which brings me to what I believe is the crux of the situation, the crux of the situation insofar as our inability to deal with it is concerned. We who have lived here on the Island, and that includes almost every member of this House with the exception of the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie), and to some degree the member for Eagle River (Mr.

Strachan), with that exception everyone of us who sits in this House has spent just about either all our life or just about all our lives here on this Island, 922

February 16, 1977 Tape 334 IB-1 t.ffi.. SIMMONS: involved in the set of circumstances which is particular to this Island and which is not necessarily very like the kinds of circumstances I have outlined as they apply to Labrador. We who live here on the Island and who have a well-developed penchant for categorizing every­ thing that is urban or rural as St. John's and do"~ the bay, is it any wonder that we have so little comprehension of the diversity of life styles which is Labrador? Is it any wonder that ~ve have committed the error of thinking of Labrador as a whole bunch of outports?

Our chronic myopia on this matter, our chronic nearsightedness on this issue is absolutely incredible. I hope, Mr. Speaker, ~ve do not add stubborness to myopia. I hope we do not dig in our heels as a people in this House for partisan reasons or wha~ever reasons and decide to look the other way,or worse still decide that we understand the problem completely and then proceed to apply another Band-Aid solution. The Labrador issue as described in this motion, Hr. Speaker, is a very real one. During the past twelve months it has been my privilege to visit various parts of Labrador five times.

I have not been South of Paradise River or Cartwright in the last year, though I have been there earlier. But otherwise I have been to all parts of Labrador from Paradise River in the South to Nain in the North on the Coast, the Happy Valley-Goose Bay-Northwest River area. I have not visited }-~'ud Lake in the last year though it was my privilege just four or five years ago to do so. Also in the last year I have been able to get into Labrador City, Wabush, and Churchill Falls on a couple of occasions in the case of each community. I tell you, Hr.

Speaker, not as one who is any expert on Labrador but as one who has been there a few times, perhaps more frequently than most members of this House other than those ~vho resicle in Labrador - CAPT. WTII'SOR: - I -;a ;-elect~d in Labrador for years. MR. SIMMONS: - or indeed most Newfoundlanders, and there are exceptions. My good friend from Fogo (Capt. Winsor) reminds me - and I had forgotten - that he for a good many years of course represented Labrador. It is so 921

February 16, 1977 Tape 334 IB-2 'MR. SI~ONS: easy to forget that there are people in the Rouse, ·not only older in years than we are,but older in their knowledge of Labrador. And it is not my intent to stand here and profess a great knowledge of Labrador but to say to my friend from Fogo (Capt. ~-Tinsor) and others that while I have only been there four or five times in the last year, that oddly enough is more times than most people in this House and most Newfoundlanders have been to other parts of their own Province and indeed other parts of their Island.

I say it not, as I say, to become the expert on Labrador or to pose as the expert but to draw attention to the lack of knowledge which all of us collectively have about Labrador. Hr. Speaker, having been there a few times and having seen)I can confirm what those who live there and who are much more intimately involved with this issue have been saying all along, that the issue is a very real one. The issue ~nich my colleague from Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) poses in this motion is as real as the light of day. We would be fools and irresponsibles to ignore it or to talk our way around it. Let us, !A.:r.

Speaker, not make the costly mistake of pretending the problem, the issue, the sentiment, does not exist. The most cruel injustice we can commit against the people of Labrador,and indeed against the future ~vell-being of this Province, is to attempt to minirnize,to dmm play the problems, to s"t..reep the problem, to Sl>.Teep the issue, to sweep the fact of the grmv-ing sentiment under the carpet,

February 16, 1977 Tape J35 PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: to continue to apply those Band-Aid solutions. Labrador, Mr. Speaker, is chock-full, brimful, full to overflowing of examples of such Band-Aid solutions, Band-Aid approaches,which far from helping to cure have only served to aggravate. The alienation movement, and I would call it that rather than _ a . ~eparati~t mo~ement at this particul~r time - the term 'separatist movement' suggests to me that a conclusion has been l!eached among the people, and I am not sure it has.

That is not to say that they have not locked up inside of them, a lot . of frustrations on the subject .- but I would term it for the purpose of my discussion here an alienation movement, a very real one. That alienation movement is being funded, Mr. Speaker, by both levels of government. And that, Mr. Speaker, is not a partisan charge. I say both levels of government, federal and provincial, Liberal and P .C • That alienation movement is being fostered by money from the taxpayers. I am not suggesting for one moment that the government, either federal or provincial, has deliberately fuelled the alienation.

I do not believe at all that was the case, nothing could be further from the truth. But, Mr. Speaker, I am saying that in a hasty effort to treat the patient, if I may use an analogy, to treat in a hasty effort to treat the patients before the diagnosis is fully understood, massive amounts of money have been poured into organizations in Labrador, money which is being used de facto, money which is being used de facto for purposes very different than those purposes intended by government. I said, Mr.

Speaker, a few moment ago that I believe that one of the dangers in discussing and debating this motion is to understate, to play down the sentiment to which this motion addresses itself. One of the dangers is to pretend it does not exist, to hope it will go away. I would submit that an equally hazardous course of pursuit would be to overstate the issue, to · undu~y ~i~1!~~~ the issue out of all proporti~n, to over dramatize. I see that as a very real possibility and a real danger as well. 925

February 16, 1977 Tape 335 PK - 2 HR. Sll!MONS: I hopea Mr. Speaker, that the expression of my deep concern for this issue will not be misconstrued by l1lY listeners - as overstat~ent, but rather as an honest and a realistic expression of the issue as I understand it. Mr. Speaker, this motion is a plea, a ple~ from the member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan),one who sees firsthand the dangers involved in not coming to grips with the sentiJllent. One who sees firsthand t.he 926

February 16, 1977, Tape 336, Page 1 -- apb MR. SIMMONS : inherent dangers if we fail to arrive at an equitable solution to the dilemma which we face in Labrador. This motion is a plea from the people of Labrador, a plea to come to Labrador and to listen, a plea to us as members of this House. We cannot all go but we can send five or seven as a select committee. The plea to us here in the House to come to Labrador and to listen and to apply a yardstick to the sentiment which does exist there, not only to the sentiment, but to its basis, to ask why does it exist and to ask what is the resolution of the issue?

This motion, Mr. Speaker, is a plea from all in these chambers here,and indeed all in this Province who have faith in the future of Ne~-1foundland. and. Labrador. I do hope that the plea will be heard for it is a plea to the House of Assembly to do something, something concrete,about Labrador. It is a plea to begin doing that something now. I would see the select committee . _moving into high gear just as soon as the motion receives House approval, presuming it would.

And I would hope the committee's . work would not be any dragged out affair, any royal commission under another disguise, anothe~ long- winded study that has no completion date. There is no reason, Mr. Speaker, why this committee could not get down to business as soon as it is appointed, go to Labrador reasonably soon, travel around Labrador, hear the viewpoints, the various expressions of these viewpoints, assess . the situation. There is not reason, Mr.

Speaker,why the committee could not complete its work and report to the House during this session, · report to the House during this session either later this Spring or sometime early in the Fall. Mr. Speaker, it is not an equitable solution of the Churchill Falls dispute with Quebec which will solve the Labrador issue as articulated in this motion. I 927

February 16, 1977, Tape 336, Page 2 - apb Ma. SIMMONS: repeat, it is not an equitable resolution to the Churchill Falls' dispute with Quebec which will solve the Labrador issue. A decision to proceed or not to proceed on Gull Island will not be the panacea that will cure all the ills of Labrador. A Trans-Labrador highway ' . 92 S

February 16, 1977 Tape no. 337 Page 1 - mw Mr. Simmons. will not be the salvation of Labrador. All these, the Churchill Falls issue, the Gull Island issue, the highway issue, all these have implications for the economic and the social development of Labrador,and indeed for the economic and social development of the Province as a whole. But, Mr. Speaker, whether Churchill Falls or Gull Island or a highway contributes to a solution to the dilemma pose~ ~n ~his motion, or whether Churchill Falls or Gull Island or a highway helps only to magnify, to aggravate the dilemma even further, remains to be seen.

There are, however, Mr. Speaker, initiatives which must be taken if the destinies of the people of Labrador and of Newfoundland are to continue to be intermingled to their common benefit. I do not pretend to know what all of these initiatives must be, but I am convinced of two things. First,the initiatives we have taken thus far have not worked, and in some cases,have backfired badly.

And second, I am convinced that we will do irrefutabledamage to the cause if we persist in continuing to applyBand-Aid solutions without first launching a determined endeavour to understand the true dimensions of the dilemma which confronts us in Labrador, the dilemma which is so well stated in the motion moved by my colleague from Eagle River. }rr. Speaker, in concluding, just let me reinforce the last two statements I have made.

First,that I am strongly of the opinion that the steps that have been taken so far, the initiatives that have been taken by government, whatever the political stripe whether federal or provincial, those initiatives at best have not worked, and at worst have worked only to our detriment and as a Province, and to the detriment in particular of the people who inhabit, who make their domicile in Lab~ador. And secondly, Mr. Speaker, I am of the strong and urgent opinion that we cannot afford, that we can ill afford to continue on this tack of applying Band-Aid solutions 929

February 16, 1977 Tape no. 337 Page 2 - mw Mr. Simmons • before we stand back and assess the true dimensions of the sentiment so well described in the motion. It is in this spirit, Mr. Speaker, that I support the motion moved by my colleague, the member for Eagle River. It is in this spirit that I have quite deliberately during the course of my few remarks not attempted to assign blame, to attribute fault or to point fingers, - - - ·- - - - - -· • --• · ·- ·- ·-- • ·-·· --P but rather to use ~y speaking opportunity in the debate to call attention, as I am sure others will, 930

February 16,1977 Tape 338 AH-1 MR. SIMMONS : to what is a very real fact of life for all of us, whether we live on the Island or in Labrador, a very real fact of life and a continuing fact of life which has staggering import for the future of the province and for our future as a people. And I would hope, Mr.

Speaker, that all of us as we enter into this debate, will look upon the proposal of a select committee, not as a debating vehicle, not as a way of having an acadamic exercise in these chambers and scoring points of each other, but rather let us analyse carefully in our preparation for this debate,and in debating itself, Let us analyse carefully carefully whether this select committee,composed of us as members, five or seven of these members in this House, let us ask ourselves honestly and without blind allegiance to party lines or to whatever other forces that normally bind us, let us ask ourselve quite openly and honestly whether perhaps this vehicle, this select committee, may not have the potential of being-a very productive beginning towards addressing ourselves to the sentiment expressed in this motion.

It is in that spirit , Mr. Speaker, that I am very pleased to give my full support to the motion. Thank You. S0!1E RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Tourism. ~ ~· HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to delay the House very long. I ~·rant to add my comments to the resolution because I think it is an important subject.

I think the fact that hon. members may have different vie~1s or be of different opinions in terms of ~o1hether we support or otherwise this resolution,should not in any way detract or be misinterpretated as a lack of concern or a lack of interest in the subject that is before us. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, I think it is very important that hon. members participate in this debate and set at rest once and for all, or to put in proper prospective, 931

February 16,1977 Tape 338 AR-2 MR. HICKEY: the whole question of Labrador in relation to the province, to the Island part of the prov:tnce, and the question of Labrador separating. One, Mr. Speaker, must arrive at the conclusion that when people, be it a minority group or otherwise who talk about separating, one must arrive at the conclusion that they are unhappy with what they have, or 'tvi.th their place with~n the overall structure of the province. The minority group in the province of Quebec, and I say minority because, :!1r.

Speaker, I firmly believe,as do a great number of Canadians, maybe the majority of Canadians believe that it is a minority group who talk of separating the province of Quebec, make it very clear why they wish separation. Orte can quarrel with those views, obviously any of us who believe in this country can appreciate the stand that a lot of us take with regards to that province. 932

February 16, 1977 Tape 339 IB-1 MR. HICKEY: The resolution at hand, ¥r. Speaker, more than anything else,! think addresses itself to the question of the unrest in Labrador. But to put it very bluntly - and I think T.Ve should put it bluntly , and we should not couch it in any other terms- it i.s fine to put it that way, by way of resolution,but in the kind of debate that this resolution v7arrants and demands I think we should be very blunt and honest with the people of Labrador, for that matter the people of the whole Province.

Those of us on this side should make very clear government's position with regards to the question of Labrador separating from the rest of the Province. To do anything other than that,I think, ?-!r. Speaker, would ~e in fact just an exercise, quite - possibly an exercise in futility or a waste of time. So I think we should seriously address ourselves to the question. Now the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Hr. Simmons) made some comments, some of "mich I agree with. v7hen he says that this should not be a heated partisan debate, I agree it should not.

And whoever might share my vie'tv, I do not think the - certainly I will be charitable enough not to think that the member putting forward this resolution did not have this in mind. Certainly I will not imply that his motives were anything other than sincere when he brought in this resolution. I do not agree with the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir(Mr. Simmons) though when he says that we should not on this side at least catalogue some of the things that have been done. Because as I said earlier, Mr.

Speaker, if one talks about separatism, one really is talking about people who are discontent with their surroundings, discontent with the services that are being provided to them, discontent with the attention that is being paid to them or the manner in which they are viewed or looked upon in the whole concept of the Province. In order for one to address themselves to this question,therefore they must by necessity make reference to some things tvhich are being done and have been done or the things which are to be ddne. So it is virtually impossible to 933

February 16, 1977 Tape 339 ~. HICKEY: debate in a meaningful 'tvay the question that is before us without drawing hon. members attention to the situation in Labrador today versus five or ten years ago. IB-2 I do not think for one second, Mr. Speaker - and it is for this reason that I find it impossible for me to support this resolution - I do not think for o.ne second that a select committee of this hon. House or any other kind of a committee to be set up would serve the 'tvhole question that is put before us. Indeed, }{r.

Speaker, ~!e might well be accused - and I say properly so ' if we were to follow this suggestion of a select committee-of the ,rery thing that the hon. member ,for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir refers to and that is Band-Aid treatment to a very big issue or a very big problem. I do not see - and I say this with all sj_ncerity - I do not see the separatj st issue or the issue of unrest in Labrador as being a monumental problem. I see the issues that probably give rise to this feeling as being monumental. But I will not accept the suggestion that the desire to separate is widespread in Labrador.

I cannot accept that fact, Mr. Speaker, because there are too many reasons for the people of Labrador to want to remain part of this Province. There are too many advantages as opposed to going it alone. Let us take,for example,one of the problems in Labrador, namely the two different groups of people who inhabit that vast land, the settlers versus the natives.

February 16, 1977 Tape 340 PK- 1 Mr. Hickey: Let us ask ourselves the question, what is it that the settlers of Labrador want, be it in Labrador City, be it on the Coast, be it in Goose Bay, be it wherever? I suggest, Mr. Speaker, they want equal treatment as citizens of this Province. They want good services as citizens of this Province. They want similar opportunities to determine their own destiny as the rest of the citizens of this Province. In other words, we can put it in a nutshell by saying that they want everything that the citizens of this Province want and demand on the Island part of the Province.

Is there anything wrong with that, Sir? I say on behalf of this administration, no,there is nothing wrong with that, for we acknowledge that, and we adhere to that, and endorse that, and are working tediously to bring that situation about. I further say, Mr. Speaker, that to continue on the course that we have embarked upon is the answer to w~atever unrest is present in Labrador, and not to give credence to the issue of s~paratism by a Select Committee or any other organization or body to study it. Mr.

Speaker, if there is anything that should turn off the people of Labrador it is the word or words 'Committee' and 'Studies'. They have been studied to death. There is another thing, Mr. Speaker, that shou1d very quickly turn off the people of Labrador, and that is for a government to pay lip service,and not much more,to the problems that beset those people. Mr. Speaker, if I am accused of being partisan when I say this, I hope I am not, because I state a fact, I do.,not say it in any partisan way, and I am the first to acknowledge that partisan kinds of debate should be kept out of this issue.

But as I said earlier,one cannot address themselves to the question at hand without making reference to what is presently going on, and what has not gone on in the past, or the conditions ten years ago versus the conditions today. 935

February 16, 1977 Tape 340 PK - 2 Mr. Hickey: I suggest, Your Honour, one of the things that encouraged the kind of unrest among the minority group in Labrador is the kind of lip service that was given those people in relation to their problems. For so many years while they acknowledged, and while they were very clear that the great storehouse of resources were being tapped to help develop other parts_of this Province, and while they did not feel they were getting their fair share in return for what was being taken out. Mr.

Speaker, this administration does not quarrel with those people who expound that theory or belief. We agree wholeheartedly with it. And as I said,- it--is for this reason that we addres·s ourselves very seriously and constantly to the improvement of the situation in Labrador, the further development of Labrador, and only in this way will we show the people,even this minority group however many there are, that to expound on the theory of separatism, or for a government to acknowlege that theory, and address itself to that theory by way of study or what have you, is not the answer.

The people of Labrador want action, not study. The people of Labrador want results, want solutions to their problems, not an acknowledgement 1 936

February 16, 1977 Tape no. 341 Page 1 - mw Mr. Hickev. fo ~ governments for the past twenty-five years or more have been telling the people of Labrador,"We acknowledge your problem, we know your problem." They have been told that, Mr. Speaker, when indeed the government did not know their problem. The issues of Labrador were studied in great detail by the Snowden Commission.

And this administration,while it has not solved all their problems or maybe not even scratched the surface, because there are a great number of problems, and a great many problems which are most difficult, which are monumental in terms of the problems that we meet and confront every day on the Island part of the Province.- I the very geography of Labrador warrants special consideration - makes the problems there monumental as compared to the other parts of the Province. What would a Select Committee do to this whole question of unrest? I suggest, Mr.

Speaker, it would do nothing but fan the fires of the minority group whose motives\! am not sure -some,at least, I am not sure of. Some I can accept as being most sincere - and ~ could only acknowledge that, at least in my opinion, which is only one person's opinion, are ill-advised or led astray or are groping in the dark for a solution,and in doing so catches the whole issue of separatism. This administration, Mr. Speaker, must not be railroaded by a pressure group or by an emotional issue such as separatism into finding solutions to the problems of Labrador. But the problems of Labrador, Mr.

Speaker, must be well thought out and developed. All the issues facing the people of Labrador must be met in a planned way, not a response to ·emotionalism, not a response for political consideration. Why I remember three years or three and one-half years ago, when the member who sat opposite, ' representing the old district of Labrador North, when the word 'separatism' or 'unrest' had not really found its way in the media, at least, not to any great extent, and in the debate on the issue of the bridge across North West River, almost threatened 937

February 16, 1977 Tape no. 341 Page 2 - mw Mr. Hickey. the administration that if it was not done, Labrador would be lost. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that kind of approach, that kind of response, that kind of representation, does not and wili not help the people of Labrador. In fact,it will ill serve the people of Labrador. It will play into the hands of those few, who maybe even_ believe in the concept as do that few in the Province of Quebec. And those people, Mr. Speaker, who ride the back of a separatist movement, be it for either Quebec or Labrador, will end up inside. It is a lost cause.

It is certainly not an issue. It is not an issue for one to get behind. I do not quarrel with the fact that it is an issue to be dealt with, and to be acknowledged. What I am saying, Mr. Speaker, in so many words is that this administration does acknowledge that there is a problem there,-does acknowledge that there are people in the Labrador area of the Province who talk separation. 938

February 16, 1977, Tape 342, Page 1 -- apb MR. HICKEY: What is being done now that was not done before? What has this administration done to cool the fires, as it were, of any movement towards separation? I suggest, Mr. Speaker, a great deal and without much of the fanfare that one expects to accompany projects and improvements of one kind and another.

The difficult situation to understand is that while those people who expound the theory of separatism or unrest or what have you,when faced with a positive kind of project or a project Which w:f.ll · help the people of Labra~or, instantly come forward with the response that we do not want any development, and I refer to some of the native groups in Labrador. Two national parks being planned: Parks Canada in conjunction with my own department, and before Parks Canada ever went into Labrador, Mr.

Speaker, they were advised that under no circumstances would there be a park in Labrador without absolute and full consultation and co-operation with this government and with the appropriate department. Why, Mr. Speaker? Very simply this; so that the people of Labrador, be it native or settler, would have absolute and total input, would have an absolute and total opportunity to reflect their · views as to whatever changes in ' lifestyle or culture or anything else pertaining to them as they live in Labrador. An Advisory Council in Labrador is already in operation, Mr.

Speaker, funded by this administration who,among other things it cannot be denied,is funded for the purpose of bringing to the attention of this administration the problems and any unrest there is in Labrador, to pressure,or lobby,or what have you, this administration. God knows, although they are funded by this administration they are certainly not silent in their criticism of this administration from time to time, nor should they be. Is that not a sounding board for the 939

February 16, 1976, Tape 342, Page 2 -- apb MR. HICKEY: people of Labrador to use? Or a vehicle, as it were, for the people of Labrador to use to put forth its views and its suggestions or its ideas? I say, Mr. Speaker, it is,and a much more responsible one than a select committee. Because a select committee, no matter how it is made up, it is a political organization as such. Politics, partisam politics, will, no matter what,creep in to the functioning of that committee. I need not be told, Mr. Speaker, I have served on them. I have served on a few. I have had the pleasure of covering Labrador.

I am very fortunate to be able to say that I have covered all of Labrador. Western Labrador, Churchill Falls, Wabush and Labrador City, Southern Labrador and Coastal Labrador, the North. And while I do not claim in any way to know all there is about Labrador, I certainly have a working knowledge of the area and the problems and the people. I think that what must be acknowledged and what must be faced is a very simple fact.

As I said, the settlers who live in Labrador, be it in Labrador City or Wabush, be it Churchill Falls or Goose Bay, in the industrial areas or the large areas or urban areas, whatever you want to call them, 940

February 16, 1977 Tape No. 343 NM- 1 MR. HICKEY: want and demand services similar to those people on the Island, and I say, and ~ve say as an administration, that that is not unreasonable. It is a matter of geography. It is a matter of it being a monumental task. It is a matter of how quick and how soon this kind of service can be brought to those people, and I say it cannot get to them too soon, the sooner the better. l.Jhat about the other group? The other group, Mr. Speaker, are the natives.

And this is \vhere someof the unrest is coming from, maybe a good portion or a good percentage of it)and let me say that in my view I think that hon. members of this House should again make their position very clear and should not engage in pussyfooting around or sitting on the fence. Let them take their stand and let them deliver an answer to the native people of Labrador on some critical issues. One - do the laws of this Province appiy to the natives in Labrador as they do on-the people on the Island? I say they do. I say they must.

For the native oeople of Labrador elected to go '·lith and to look for the same kind of services that the people on this Island,or in any other part of this Province,look for. They therefore elected to live in a society which is civilized and which in no ~..ray reflects what was 100 ,"ar · 200 or 300 years ago. The Indian population of Labraaor, ~!...· or the Eskimo popula~i9n of Labrador,! submit, Mr. Speaker, have no more right to special status in terms of wildlife regulations than the people on this Island or any part of it.

Nmr it is a fact of life that they have special status in certain areas with regards to certain issues. While a citizen on the Island part of the Province have to take his or her chance to get a licence to hunt a caribou or a moose, the people in Labrador who have established residence and who meet--the resident reauirement are allowed eight per family. Why is this, Mr. Speaker? There is a great fallacy and a great misunderstanding ,and I think it should be made, and I Y7ant 9lt1

February 16, 1977 Tape No. 343 NM- 2 HR. HICKEY: to make it very clear as the minister responsible, a great fallacy that this is done so as to cater to the Eskimo population or the Inidan population of Labrador. Nothing, Your Honour,can be further from the truth. Those people are given that special status so as to provide an adequate supply of protein, it being an area where a readily supply is not always available. It is no way.to illustrate·this government's desire or wish,or any ot~er ~overnment's, special status because of their cultural background, or their racial background. Mr.

Speaker, this administration has not been known to let anybody starve. I do not know what administrations were know for that. There might have been a few back in the thirties, but certainly this one has not been kno11m for that nor will not be knmm for that. There has not been an administration, Hr. Speaker, that have eyer governed this Province more alert and more conscious or having a greater desire to reflect the needs of the ordinary people than this one. so,you know,let us ~ot talk about people starving.

It would be suicide for any of us to sup,gest that we have one law, one regulation,for the Indian pooulation of Labrador, or the Eskimo population of Labrador, 9lt2

February 16, 1977 Tape No. 344 NM- 1 MR. HICKEY: and another one for the rest of the citizens of this Province. vfuy? On what grounds? ~%at is the justification? How do we explain it to somebody in Bonne Bay, in St. Barbe, or up the Northern Peninsula? How do we explain it just across the Straits, nine miles? You can take eight caribou over there, Sir, but you can only take one over here,if you are lucky, if you manage to get a licence,and then you will pay for it. But in Labrador you do not have to.

So let me make it clear- '~ ~,....,"r"\ "r7T "'"T . .&:'l.l\.. .., ~.LV'lo'-'&..U:.i.r.'1 • ~~y I ask a question? r-m.. HICKEY: Yes,go ahead. }ffi. STRACHPu~: But you should mention the fact also that the fellow in St. Barbe has the choice of going to the market ~ and buying meat every month of the year. He has potatoes. He has vegetables. He has fresh fruit. He has eggs. You should make the point that these people there, if they did not have that privilege,as you call it, the privilege to hunt and get eight caribou, one per person in the family, not eight per family, one per person.

If you have four in the family you get four caribou. In other words there would be no meat, no protein, there would be nothing at. all for seven months of the year. MR. HICKEY: I will not hesitate at all, ~r. Speaker, to acknowledge that. As a matter of fact that is just what I have said in another way. I have described,and I think adequately explained~why this policy is in effect, not to give special status because of racial background but re~ognizing a need in an area which is difficult in terms of supply, difficult in terms of transportation, or what have you.

And I could not agree more with my han. friend that,you know,until such time that those·-stable i.tems are on the supermarket shelves or the shelves of the stores, ,.,hether they be small or large,in Labrador so should there be special consideration and special status and special regulations to adequately_ take care of those people. ~Vhen I mentioned the eight caribou 1what I was referring to was a maximum of eight.

February 16, 1977 Tape No. 344 NM- 2 MR. HICKEY: But my han. friend is absolutely right; it is one per person up to eight. What concerns me, Hr. Speaker, in my dealings,in most recent dealings,~.;rith some of the issues in Labrador and some of the people in Labrador,and I am sure that my han. friend across the way does not in any way acknowledge this kind of attitude, at· least to my knowledge of him certainly does not indicate to me that he does,and that is the willful, deliberate disregard for a statute of this , . J. rovJ.nce, for a law of this Province. Two years ago, Hr.

Speaker, or a year and a half ago,a number of my colleages and I acceded to a request from the Native Association of Labrador to set up an_advisory board or an advisory committee- not the Advisory Council nmv that I talk about that is funded by the Province .- but this was an advisory committee so that the native peoples of Labrador would have all the input that was necessary into developing and changing wildlife regulations. Well, Mr. Speaker, there was some difficulty in getting together for meetings and getting people off the Coast and what have you.

There were great difficulties in agreeing on the terms of reference of that committee,and finally we got off the ground and had one meeting. My staff -.;.;rent to B:appy Valley,I think 'it was. And even then we went, my staff ~.;rent, wi.ththe knowledge that at least word had come back from two members of the Native Association that they intended to burn the Wild Life Act. There was one meeting, and Mr.

Speaker, I made it clear to one of those people that -.;.;re will not negotiate with you t-7ild Life Regulations or any other regulations, or any other issue, nor will we talk to you under the threat, under any threat, under the suggestion of disregard for the law, what could be 944

February _ 16, 1977 Tape No. 345 NM - 1 MR. HICKEY: considered -a kind of blacl~il. But I made it very clear,"We are not going to do business that way. If you are not prepared to sit down and rationally debate and discuss those issues which you find unacceptable,and our willingness to try to achieve some compromise uosition, if you are not prepared to do that then there is no point of any discussion. Indeed there is nothing to discuss~' About one week, Mr. Speaker, before ~ve were due to have another meeting,! was informed that some caribou had been taken by the natives,or one or two~I am not sure.

I was told that my ~vildlife staff, I was told this by a gentleman, a native of Labrador, that he had informed the wildlife people he was going to take twenty caribou and he said, "Hinister I ~vish to inform you now that we did not take twenty, we took only nine." And I was also told that my staff acted hastily in going to search for that caribou meat by bringing in the Mounties. But the gentleman neglected to tell me all of the story.

He neglected to tell me that when my wildlife staff went to investigate upon receiving a complaint, that some twenty or thirty people meleed around that first house they went to, and I do not imagine they were wishing that gentleman the time of day. In fact,I get the impression that the atmosuhere was somewhat cool indeed to that gentleman. So much so that he was prohibited from entering that house. -MR. ROBERTS: The minister's officialT MR. HICKEY: The wildlife officer.

The official had no choice but go and get the assistance of the RCMP, and he asked for a number of the RCMP in keeping with, or in relation to the number of natives that had congregated around the dwelling. He went back, of course the meat had been taken out, and those people have contacts in the area. The reason I say today, Mr. Speaker, to give credence to my statements that there is not unrest or there is 945

February 16, 1977 Tape No. 345 NH - 2 HR. HICKEY: not talk of separatism or separating from the Province by any large majority of even the native population, is because a good number of the native people of Labrador are quite prepared and willing to acknowledge and stay within the limits of the law. For how does one think that information on those issues such as taking caribou without a licence,or not within the law,gets to my staff? There is not agreement among the native people that the law or the Wildlife Act should be broken, nor was there agreement in that particular instance.

I informed that gentleman when he called me again a couple of days later that I would not sit down and discuss with hi~. or anyone else, nor would I a1lo~.;r my staff to go in an atmosphere 'tvhere,on at least one occasion~ it almost reached the point of violence,or certainly violence was suggested. Nor was I prepared to have my staff sit down and attempt to work out a compro~ise position or improve wherever possible those regulations under any threat. I askPd that gentleman, Mr.

Speaker, and I ask this same qu~stion of han. members of the House today~ whatever the racial background of a citizen of this Province may be-be it Eski."'lo, be it Indian, be it anything- does any citizen have the right,or should any citizen be aided and abetted to adopt a position which in fact says the good laws and the laws that I like I shall uphold; the law I do not like I shall break? Think about that one, because that is very appropriate to the situation in La.brador, because this is ~vhat I am told by some of the native people l-1 in Labrador, We will tear up your Wildlife Act.

We will not uphold or will not acknowledge or stay within the boundaries of your Wildlife Act. We want nothing to do with it and we will break it!1 And then I am asked will I please envoke a regulation which empowers me to give special status to certain people in Labrador. My answer to that gentlemen was very simply, very quick and concise:· N~ ~ . -I will not •1' 946

February 16, 1977, Tape 346, Page 1 -- apb MR. HICKEY: I will not perpetrate on the rest of the citizens of this Province any discrimnatory policy which says, "Because you live in Labrador, because you happen to be of an Indian background or an Eskimo background you may break any law you wish and I will see to it that you are absolved from going to the courts." I say, Mr.

Speaker, the day that any minister, myself included, fails in his duty, whatever the ultimate results might be, fails in his duty to treat fairly and squarely the citizens of this Province that is the time that that minister should be out of office. That is why that gentleman was given that decision.

So you see, Sir, when we talk of the question of separatism for Labrador I say as I said in the beginning of my comments, we should not be blinded by the facts and the facts are that one group wants services similar to those people on the Island part of the Province,which we say they should have, which we say they will get as quick as we can deliver it to them, ~nd the other group, a goodly number or a reasonably good percentage want the same thing and I say we should see to it that everything possible is done to achieve their goals and their desires. --~y friend illustrated reasons for special consideration given to special people in · __ Lahr~dor and I say that should continue and should be increased and broadened if necessary for the peoples of Labrador have a right, have a right to the same kind of food as anybody else in this Province, be it on the Island or anywhere else.

And so we should not turn our backs on that. We should not lose sight of the fact that Labrador is a special area with special problems and with a special kind of geography. But we should not, Mr. Speaker, we should never allow ourselves to be clouded, to have the issue -~~to the extent where because of those areas of uniqueness, .be it geography or weather conditions or what have you, be it racial or the racial background of those people or any other reason, we should never let the issue, the main issue be clouded 94?

February 16, 1977, Tape 346, Page 2 -- apb MR. HICKEY: by those other considerations to the extent where we give special status to special groups in Labrador purely and simply because of their racial background. The people of Labrador stand equal in my view, Mr. Speaker, one and all stand equal be it Indian, Eskimo or settler. And I would like to hear hon. gentlemen in this House state very clearly what their view is on that, let us not run with the hare and hunt with the hound. And if we do not state our views, Mr. Speaker, very clearly on that we are fanning the fires of separatism.

And those who do not take that kind of position will have their mark in history, instead of attempting to solve the problem of separatism, which I am sure is what prompts my hon. friend into bringing the issue before this House, will have their mark in history as having contributed something to it and not addressing themselves to the question by way of solution. No, Mr.

Speaker, in conclusion, while I have a very warm spot in my heart for the issues and people of Labrador, and find myself deeply concerned as any responsible citizen for the issues of Labrador, I cannot find myself supporting the establishing of a select committee, because I think, I honestly believe it would be a step backwards. I think, indeed,we would be, as I have said, open to criticism.

We would be opening the door for people to criticize us by simply saying, "Oh there is another committee who are going to do some more study, who are going to visit Labrador, the various sections of Labrador and talk to all those people again." I would be awfully 948

February 16, 1977 Tape 347 IB-1 MR. HICKEY: surprised if the media and if the printed media who certainly do not hesitate to pass opinions on issues very quickly after they are raised in this hon. House, I would be awfully surprised, indeed I would be amazed if this House approved the setting up of a select committee, if you did not see editorials in the paper which would simply say, "Another committee. They are going to study it again. They are going to put a Band-Aid on a problem when really a cure is required." I would be awfully surprised if that did not happen.

And while I do not always agree with editorials - I happen to be in a portfolio . _in which I find it impossible to agt<ee always with editor~als. I would love to because I have a lot of friends in the media such as }!r.

Collins and a few others, I would certainly have to agree if in fact we were to approve this resolution, set up this committee, and if such an editorial appeared in the paper I would simply have to ac~owledge it and say, "He is right." While I may not be able to say it publicly, you know, if we were crazy enough to jump in and bite the bit and set up this, then certainly I think we would reap what we would sow. We would deserve that kind of commentary. So, Mr. Speakr, I will be opposing this resolution. It is too bad because I would have liked to have seen a resolution which I could support as I said.

I think that the issues of Labrador are big. I think they are very challenging and I think that moves such as setting up a committee, such as putting the name Labrador onto the Province of Newfoundland or putting it on the stationery or anything of that nature, that is not going to wash. The people have had enough of that. They want some action. They want some results and they are getting it from this administration I SO~ HON. MEl'BEFS : Hear, hear! Wt. SPEAKER: The han. member for Twillingate. MP_. SMALLWOOD: ~r.

Speaker, I offer very sincere congratulations ~ to the hon. member for the Coast of Labrador and the hon. member for the Central part of Labrador : on-- the perfectly splendid speeches they made in this House on this resolution. I congratulate the han. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (~r. Simmons) for the thoughtful and non-partisn 949

February 16, 1977 Tape 347 IB-2 MR. SMALLWOOD: remarks of his speech and I congratulate the ¥.inister of Tourism - I do ·not know just what it is I congratulate him on but I congratulate him anyhow because frankly I disagree tvith most of what he said. When he says that Newfoundland's law is to be enforced in Labrador without fear, favour or affection regardless of race, regardless of history, regardless of anything, everyone was to be treated exactly and precisely alike, he was expressing a view that is rapidly disappearing across this nation of Canada.

He was flying in the_ face of a sentiment that is rising in Canada and becoming very strong. That is to say that the special case of the native peoples all across the nation, across the Northern half of this continent including Labrador, the special case of the native people must, I say, must an increasing number of statesmen in r.anada say, must receive special care, special attention. This has got 9Sn

February 16, 1977 Tape No. 348 MR. SHALLWOOD: to be the case, because the danger is not in Quebec alone _. There are _ other parts of Canada and other peoples in Canada ~vho are unhappy, who are discontented, r.vho are dissatisfied and surely it is the nart of statesmanship to satisfy them as far as it can reasonably be done. Now in the case of Labrador I cannot overlook the fact that the Indians, the Indian people have been there continuously, not continually but actually continuously for at least 9,000 years. At least 9,000 years, how much longer we do not know.

In the course of time the archaeologists NM- 1 and the anthropologists and other scientists at our university, and at other universities will probably uncover evidence pushing the history of the Indians in Labrador much back behind 9,000 years. It was only this past Summer that a professor at ~emorial University discovered and uncovered what is now regarded as the oldest burial mound in North America, North, Central or South America, 9,000 years old. This past Summer that was found.

This pushes the existence of the Indians in Labrador back at least 9,000 years and there is unrnistakeable evidence that the Inuit people, usually called Eskimos, have been in Labrador for at least 5,000 years. Now we, we and our forefathers, the oldest of us, the Dawes of Conception Bay and the Garlands and the Davises, and the other oldest of all Newfoundland families have been on this Island a maximum of a little over 400 years, not 4,000, but 400. We came here the day before yesterday.

The Indians and the Inuit people in Labrador have been there thousands upon thousands of years, and they have never ceased te .be there. And I, if I were ~inister of Tourism, talki~g to this resolution, I might indeed, if it was party decision, caucus decision, to vote against the caucus, the resolution, say that I was going to vote against it as he has done but I think I would have been a little kinder, a little . 951

F~bruary 16, 1977 Tape No. 348 MR. SMALLHOOD: more gracious in my references to the native people of Labrador. They are there, there is no doubt of that. They are there all right. They are human. They can speak. They can be discontented. They can express their discontent and that discontent can grow. It has been _ growing. It continues to gro~1. MR. RIDEOUT: It is a good thing there is only a small number of them. That is the only thing that saves them. MR. SHALLWOOD: Now I am not happy at all about the state of public opinion in L_abrador.

It seems to me, and this what I am about to say is said only after a lot of careful and I believe mature thought on my partt that t~ere are three great problems .facing Newfoundlanders today• OD.e and foremost is the financhl condition of this Provincet which I believe is precarious in the extreme. The second is the economic situation of this Province which again is serious but not so serious as the financial. I cannot helo remembering every time

February 16, 1977 Tape 349 IB-1 _MR.. S~.ALU700D : we hear of the appalling degree and percentage of unemployment in '-...__. our Province today, I cannot help remembering that it could be a lot worse. I cannot forget that throughout most of my life since I have been on this earth,for the greater part of those seventy-five years, the average percentage of unemployment in Newfoundland in January, February, March and April would be say, between fifty and sixty-per cent. I can just barely remember when unemployment averaged about seventy per cent in the ~~inter in Newfoundland.

And though it is an appalling thing that in a Province of Canada, that in a part of the new world that is part of this beautiful Canadian nation we should have 30,000 or 40,000 unemployed men and women. That is an appalling thought. I cannot forget that so~ething around $200 million, $250 million is poured in here from the t~C, the National Employment Commission or whatever is the correct name. MR. NEARY: Unemployment Insurance Commission. MJL Sl-fALUJOOn: Unemployment Insurance Commission at Ottawa.

And I cannot neglect the fact, I cannot just blot it out of my mind that thousands of those unemployed people)because of the rates of pay in Newfoundland for so many people, thousands of them are getting just about as much in unemployment insurance as they would be getting if they had jobs 1 at the particular kinds of jobs they would have normally, if they had jobs. Nevertheless when all that is said. the fact remains that the economic condition of our Province today is very serious.

Then thirdly, the Labrador. people's discontent, their dissatisfaction, - ---- - . . their discouragement, thei~ unhappiness_, _that is problem number three in this Province today. Now, l~r. Speaker, I have placed that problem very high in the catalogue.

Number one, the financial condition of the Province; nUmber -two, the economic condition of the Province; and number three, the deepening dissatisfaction of the people of Labrador, not native peoples alone, not Inuit and Indian people alone, but thousands of others as well, some of them being natives of Quebec or of Nova Scotia or of New Brunswick or of the Azores ~ ' of Portugal, and a great many of 953 :....

February 16~ 1977 Tape 349 IB-2 MR. SMALLWOOD: them natives of the Island of Newfoundl~nd and a good many ?f them natives of other parts of Labrador who have gone into the industrial centers. Now I a.gree rrlth the minister :t-IDo just sat dmm, that there is not a powerful or violent movement for separation in Labrador. I C!.gree. I do not think there is. I think there is some. I do not think it is extreme. I do no·t think it is powerful. I do not think it is vio1entJ but- it is there. There is a suggestion of separeitf!lg from Newfoundland. There are other suggest .ions.

There is, for example, the suggestion of setting up a regional government for Labrador. There is even the crazy suggestion that Labrador should become a Province, with all of its 35,000 or 40,000 souls, should become a Province. 'l'hen the little baby province of Prince ~dward Island would seem like a giant. 954

February 16, 1977 Tape ~lo. 350 ~ffi.. SHALLVJOOD: There is a lake in Labrador which I had the honour of having named after me, a lake, one of many lakes, one of many hundreds of lakes in Labrador. There is one of them that is larger than the v7hole Province of Prince EdT11ard Island. AN RON. ~1EMJ3 ER : It is man mcde though. HR.. S}fALU.TOOD : It is man made, no it is God made but man did a little damning, built a few walls and things to keep it from escaping. Prince Edward Island has a population of what is it NM- 1 now- 110,000? Something of the order of 109,000. I remember when it was 95,000.

I remember when it was falling steadily. It fell from a little over 100,000, 101,000 down to 98,000, dmvn finally to 95,000. But it has been coming back and I believe now it is something of the order of 110,000 souls. HR. NEARY: A good many are federal civil servants. ~m. SMALLWOOD: A good many of them are federal civil servants. That is the complete truth. And a good many of them are peo?le from different parts of Canada and the United States who have gone in there, bought land for country homes and _ retirement places to live out the remainder of their days. A few Newfoundlanders have done that.

The late Phil Grouchy, Vice-President and General Manager of the -great paper mill company of Grand Falls, lived out his remaining days in Prince Edward Island. Talk of Labrador becoming a Provii).ce .. Mr. Speaker, I was in London in December and I went to the House of Commons and sat in listening to the debates on devolution. For many years, as the han. member for the Coast of Labrador what is the Coast? MR. NOLAN: Eagle River. MR. SMALLWOOD: Eagle River so well knows, he being a native Scot, 95~

February 16, 1977 Tape No. 350 ~1M - 2 MR. SM...<\LLI-lOOD: for many years in Scotland there has been discontent among many people over the fact that they were subject to the Parliament of the United Kingdom, discontent with being Part of the United Kingdom.

So a -nationalistic movement sprang up and has grmvn and grown and it began running candidates in elections for Parliament at London, -at ~e~~mf.~~ter, and they finally got one or two elected, then three or four, then five or six or ei~~t or tenJ and today in the Parliament at Westminster, I think) there are some twelve or fifteen Scottish Nationalists,~i.P. s, elected on that ticket. Not as Tories, not as Liberals, not as Labourites but as Scottish National Party, SNT.

And they have kept up a clamour for a great many years in Scotland for a seuarate government, a sort of separatist movement to have a government and a parliament of their own. Now it is perfectly true that the government of the United Kingdom had a Secretary of State for Scotland and they had an Under Secretary of State for Scotland and many of the ministries in the British Government had Scottish branches and had offices in Scotland and the Parliement and the Government of the United Kingdom went a long way to satisfy the nationalistic aspirations of Scotland. HP... ROBERTS : Scotland had their o~m law.

It alwF.ys had their mm law. MR. S"MALLWOOD: That is right. And so this movement grew and grew and resulted in legislation being brought in to the House of Commons, and I was there and h~ard the debate on it. I was there the night it passed. The parties split on it. The Labour Party, the Government Party split. Some of them voted against it and some voted for it. The Tory Party split, some for, some against. The Liberal Party, I think there are only twelve or thirtPPn of them anyhow in the House of Commons, I do not thin 1: there are quite as many Liberals in the House of Commons at Westminster today 95ll

February 16, 1977 Taoe No. 350 NM - 3 HR . S~fALLHOOD: as t here are Scottish Nationalists . It is incredible b ut it is true. I think they \Jere more or less unanimous _, and the devolution bill just scraped through . Now -what is that bill? ~~c tl and , ~x . Soeaker, is a nation of abou t 7 million people . Roughly speaking about the population of Onta rio . But unlike Onta r iot Scotland is a nation . It has always been a nation. Ho~-1 long has it 957

February 16, 1977, Tape 351, Page 1 -- apb MR. SMALLWOOD: nation a thousand years? MR. J. CARTER: MR. S~.ALLWOOD: been a nation5 How long has it been a Longer. Longer than a thousand years. It had its own Royal Family, it had its own Kings, it had its own parliament, it had its own laws, it was a nation. It had its own armies. Again and again it invaded England with its army and the battles were fought and these are commemorated in song, this Scottish nation.

Wales also had its nationalistic movement, a lot of unhappiness among the people of Wales, a lot of discontent and a growing nationalistic feeling with this result: In December Parliament, the House of Commons, then followed by the House of Lords, with the Queen signing, giving the Royal Assent, Parliament has now passed a law applying to Scotland and to Wales. Now what is that law?

Does it say that the United Kingdom is dissolved, the United Kingdom being the nation of England, the nation of Scotland and the nation of Wales, those three nations having united to become the united nation which is the formal name today, does it mean under this devolution law that they are now dissolving and becoming once again three separate nations? It does not. The very

preamble to the bill, if I had remembered I would haye brought it here,, says that what this bill is to do for Scotland and for Wales in no way is to separate the three nations. What is to be done for Scotland and what is to be done for Wales is to be done within the gambit of the constitution of the United Nations and done within the limit of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. DR. FARRELL: MR. SMALLWOOD: DR. FA..l?.RELL: May I ask a question, Sir? Yes, of. course. The Scottish Nationalists are not very happy with that position at the moment are they? MR. SMALLWOOD: I think that the Scottish Nationalists, the Scottish Nationalist M.P's who voted unanimously for it regard 958

February 16, 1977, Tape 351, Page 2 -- apb MR. SMALLWOOD: it as a great step forward, a very great step forward. MR. ROBERTS: It is the Labour M.P's who are embittered, the Labour M.P's from Scotland. MR. SMALLWOOD: vfuat was happening in Scotland was that that great stronghold of the Labour Party which was sending men religiously _- and almost that is the proper word because it --- - . - .. was dDne with great fervour, great emotion - they were sending M.P's, Labour M.P's to Westminster from all parts of Scotland, nearly all parts.

In late years, in several elections past the Labour vote was going down and the Scottish Nationalist vote was coming up and the Labour Party, fearful of what the net result would be if it went on for another ten or twenty years say, might end up by having no Labour M.P's from Scotland but all the M.P's from Scotland being Scottish Nationalists.

So, to head that off, the Labour Government set up a royal commission, there was a white paper - any hon. member who would like to see it, I have it - there was a grey paper - anyone 'tvho wants to see that I have that and I have the legislation. _The legislation was the culmination of these white papers, these studies that were made. Now, Scotland will still send M.P's to the House of Commons, Wales will still elect M.P's to the House of Commons, but each of them, each of !them will have its own Parliament and each of them will have its own government and the government of each will spend its own money.

But where will they get the money? From the Parliament of the United Kingdom. Each year in Parliament the budget will be brought down as usual and it will contain an amount to be voted to the Parliament of Scotland and an amount to be voted to the Parliament of Wales. But these Parliaments, if you can put so grandiloquent a term on them, are not allowed to pass any law that is contradictory of the law of the United Kingdom, because Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom and so does Wales. 959

February 16, 1977, Tape 351, Page 3 - apb MR. NEARY: Do they not do the same thing in NortheTn Ireland? MR. SMALLWOOD: Northern Ireland had, has not got now, but had its own Parliament and elected members of Parliament to Westminster. I do not know,with regard to Northen Ireland, whether the Parliament of the United Kingdom voted money to the Parliament of Northen Ireland. I do not know whether they did or not. AN BON. MEMBER: MR. SMALLWOOD: They did, yes. They did. Well, 960

February 16, 1977 Tape 352 IB-1 }fR. SHALLWOOD: I did not know that. I have never made much of a study of Northern Ireland. And if Northe!TI Ireland had been in this devolution bill I would have listened with great interest to the debate that 1i7ent on. Please~ please let us hear no more of this silly idea of Labrador with its 30,000 or 40,000 people -what is it, 45,000 now? AN HON. ME~ER: Forty thousand. ~. S~-'ALL~~OOD: -something of the order of 40,000 or 45,000 souls and pro~ably 112,000 square miles becoming a province, that is too foolish for words.

It is too silly for serious minded,grown-up, mature men to talk about. Let us put an end to that. But~ what do you do? What is the solution? Hhat is going to prevent a rapid increase in the amount of dissatisfaction, of discontent, of unhappiness? Surely this, that and the other idea will be mooted in Labrador. Surely all kinds of suggestions will be generated, all kinds of proposals will be made. Many of them will be silly and foolish. But many a silly idea, many a foolish idea has caught on and people lacking the facts, lacking the information, fall for foolish ideas.

So some foolish idea in Labrador can take root~ it can become popular and it can get to be accepted by large numbers, at least large proportions of the population of Labrador. Now to allow that to happen is stupid. It would be stupid of this House. It would be stupid of the government of this Province, stupid of the Opposition~ stupid of every ME). to be content to let her ride, to do what the minister did there~ "tolhat I am often tempted to do. The minister was powerfully tempted there in his speech to refer to the things, the good things, that the present administration have done for Labrador.

I am not arguing that they have not done good things for Labrador. But if he is going to talk about the good things that the present administration did for Labrador, I could mention some forty or fifty good things that the previous administration did. But the net result of it all is after whatever good things were done by my administration and whatever good things have been done by the present Premier's administration, after it all~ the net result is 961

February 16, 1977 Tape 352 }'!R. SMALU700D: discontent, dissatisfaction, unhappiness. So much for the good that has been done. Now let me try to expose and perhaps explode a silly idea. IB-2 I have heard people in Corner Brook argue publicly at a meeting, because of the great industrial structure there was in Corner Brook and in the Humber Valley that money ought not just be scooped up by the government in St. John's and spent generally around the Province. The money that is generated, the tax revenue generated in Corner Brook ought to be spent in Corner Brook.

I got myself in serious trouble when in reply to that at a banquet or some speech I made in Corner Brook I said, "This is the theory of feeding the fat so"t-;r." The hon. minister viill remember the trouble I got in. It ~vas true but it was indiscreet of me as a politician to say it because it seet!!ed as though I were comparing Corner Brook to a sov7 and all kinds of ,.;rang - I could have put the same thought in other words. YR. NEARY: We used to say the same thing over on Bell Island once upon a time. MR.

S¥~LLWOOD: On Bell Island they would talk,years ago~when it was a great industrial center,of all the revenue they were generating. Incidentally they did not generate it for the Newfoundland Government. The Newfoundland Government,except for income tax 'ilen there was income tax and for customs duties when ther~ were customs dut~es coming to the Newfoundland Government, the Nev;rfoundland Government got virtually nothing from the big enterprise. ~-· NEAFY: Ten thousand dollars a year. MR. SHALLWOOJ): Ten thousand dollars a year.

That great company, mining a million, 1.5 million, a million and three quarter tons of iron ore a year paying $10,000 to the Newfoundland Government. However the same thing in Grand Falls. They have a magnificant industry there, a great modern paper mill, the first ~,re had in this Province. And you would hear talk in Central Newfoundland along the same line. We are 962

February 16, 1977 Tape No. 353 NM- 1 MR. SMALL\\TOOD: generating the revenue and St. John's gets it and the government gets it,and they soend it where they like. Let them spend it here where it originates. ~ow look at that argument for a moment, just look at it. Look at it nationally, _You have ten provinces. You have three provinces that are very rich, Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia. ~\That have you got? I argued on TV with .

Wacky Bennett when he was Premier of that province . and I was Premier of this one, and on TV ~.re had a debate, and he wanted the Government, the Legislature of British Columbia to have the right to put on any kind of taxes they liked) and they should have the preference over Parliament. I said, "What are you sugge3lting that you pull out of the Union? What you want is the advantages of Confederation and none of the disadva~~ages. You do not ~.rant to pay a federal income ta"<. You do not want to pay in British Columbia. You do not want to pay federal customs duties.

What do you want to pay Ottawa?" "Well we do not w