Volume XL Tuesday il Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND First Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Number 7 7 May 1985

The House met at 3:00 P.M. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Opposition. MR. BARRY: the 000 Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I wonder if, before we start the regular business of the House, we could ask members on all sides of the House to join in an expression of condolence to the family of the late General Clarence Wiseman, a distinguished Newfoundlander who established a place in history for himself by becoming the first Newfoundlander, indeed I think the first Canadian, to become the international leader, the world leader of the Salvation Army.

General Wiseman is known for many good works within Newfoundland as well as for the tremendous contribution he made to the Salvation Army, and I think it would be appropriate if this han. House were to pass resolution to extend to his family. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: a unanimous condolences The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speake~, we would certainly associate our words with the words of sympathy expressed by the han. L311 7 May 1985 the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) with respect to General Wiseman.

He had a very distinguished career in .the services of a very distinguished religious denomination, one which has rendered a great deal of service to this Province. The people of all of this Province have benefited immensely from the work ·of the Salvation Army. Certainly General Wiseman was very well regarded by everybody. He had been one of the main people in the Salvation Army and had a real association with the Province of Newfoundland. We would very openly endorse the remarks made by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) and wish to be associated with them in a unanimous resolution. Oral Questions MR.

BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Premier. I would like to pass over a letter on the letterhead of the Premier's Office, which seems to carry his signature, and I would like to ask the Premier in light of this letter, which is dated March 25, addressed to Mr. Jim Hearn, PC Candidate, District of Mount Scio - Bell Island, where in the first paragraph the Premier states after a

preamble, 'I am pleased to say that a Peckford government would within thirty days from April 2 set up an independent public review of rates on the Bell Island ferry," if the R311

independent public review has been set up yet, Mr. Speaker? PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: No, Mr. Speaker, it has not, but it will be very, very shortly. We are a tiny bit behind on it right now, but we are in the process of ensuring that that commitment is kept. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas ): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

BARRY: I wonder if, in the context of that independent public review of rates, would the Premier give consideration to an examination of whether the time has not come to treat the intraprovincia~ ferry systems within the Province as part of the highway system? Would the Premier be in a position to instruct this independent review committee, however it is going to be set up, to examine the cost of establishing a rate-free ferry service, or at least rates that would be no more than the cost of moving the same distance along the highway system? PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SP EAKER : The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: I do not will take Oppositon's know, the (Mr. Mr. Speaker. Leader of Barry) idea L312 7 May 1985 I the and considerate it. I do not -know if we will make it part of the Terms of Reference of the enquiry or not. It is a very difficult proposition when you look around the Province at the number of intraprovincial ferry systems. What has happened over the last number of years is we have taken on quite a few additional ferry services all over the Province, and they are a very expensive proposition.

There was, under an old agreement with the federal government, the idea that where they had been involved earlier they would provide the infrastructure, like ferry terminals and so on, and after they were built they were passed over to the Province and we would be responsible fo r them forever more so that we have added quite a few. I do not know what the cost would be but I will take the matter under advisement and discuss it with the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe). But it we will be moving ahead as it relates to the rate structure as was committed at that time. MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout) and it concerns overfishing of East Coast cod stocks by the West Germans. The federal minister (Mr. Fraser), his federal counterpart, is quoted as calling them a bunch of pirates and he has threatened to cut off ECC vessels from fishing within the 200 mile limit. And it is regarded as perhaps the most serious case of overfishing in Canadian history. As I understand it all the ECC countries were allocated some 9500 metric tons. R312

The West Germans were allocated some 7000 metric tons and they took some 25,000 tons and at $1.00 per pound I ~derstand that that translates into something like $40 million worth of fish. My question for the minister is this: How long has the minister or the government known about the situation of overfishing by the West Germans? What sanctions did they recommend, such as revoking licenses and so on? Will they table any communications? And are the West Germans still out there? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, I will table a telex that we sent to the federal minister last week when I get a proper copy. This is just a draft copy but I will table one when we get it. We were, if I remember correctly, made awar.e of the problem last Friday, I believe. I will have to check to make sure but I believe it was last Thursday or .Friday, and immediately when we were made aware of the problem, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr.

Ottenheimer} and myself got together and with the help of our officials we telexed the federal minister expressing our very grave concern with this overfishing by the West Germans and we recommended that the federal minister use whatever means were at his disposal to insure that, first of all, the fishing stopped and, secondly, that some guarantees be put in place to ensure that this kind of activity did not continue. This is a very serious matter. This Province and all of the Atlantic Provinces, I might say, Mr.

Speaker - because the matter was discussed in some detail in Montreal last weekend L313 7 May 1985 when we attended the Fisheries Council of Canada meetings, so all of the Atlantic Provinces, and particularly ourselves, are very concerned about this matter - have requested the federal minister, who by the way is now in West Germany, to use whatever he has to use, to use whatever means necessary for him to use, to bring about an end to this problem by the West Germans. In terms of specifics we do not really care, Mr.

Speaker, if it means cancelling quotas, if it means cancelling licenses, if it means extending jurisdiction. Whatever the federal government can do to correct this problem must be done quickly and it must be done immediately. This Province, as well as the other Atlantic Provinces, have made our requests very clear to the federal government and have asked them to act on it without delay. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for .Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I find the minister's answer strange.

Up until last Friday, I think his words were, the provincial Department of Fisheries did not know that this over- fishing was taking place and yet I understand the federal ministers said that Canada protested thi_s overfishing for some two months. So the Premier and the other ministers talk about co-operative federalism, yet we see the pirating and the stealing, if you want, of some $30 to $40 million worth of fish offshore. My next question to the minister is, in view of the fact that the federal minister (Mr.

Fraser), after two months of protesting himself, or so he says, that Canada protested this thing, in view of that fact I want to ask R313

the minister if this is what we can now expect in fisheries and other matters of importance to Newfoundland, that there will be no consultation? The minister had admitted he was not consul ted by his federal counterpart until last Friday. Will there be no consultation between the two parties, the two polit ical parties that are of the same strip? Is that what we are now talking about, that there will be no consultation and the minister will be told when it is raised in Ottawa by the federal members of Parliament for Gander-Twillingate (Mr. Baker) and Burin-St. George's (Mr. Price)?

Is that what we can expect, that first of all the minister will hear it on the air waves and then hear it from the federal Minister of Fisheries? MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.Speaker, first of all, not hear of this matter on waves before we heard officials of the we did the air it from federal Department of Fisheries. I said I would check our record to make sure, but it was towards the end of last week, and we were aware of it a day or two before we heard any public outcry about it on the air waves.

So, you know, the hen. gentleman can get up and try to wax eloquent and poke words down our throats and say they are facts when, in fact, they are not. The record can prove they are not facts and that we were informed by federal officials about this matter towards the lat·ter part of last week. Now that does not take away from the fact that, as I understand it, the overfishing had been going on for some time. And I do not know if the hon. gentleman is correct or not when L314 7 May 1985 he alleges that the federal minister (Mr. Fraser) said he was aware of it for two months. I do not know.

That is a question he would have to address to the federal minister. But the fact of the matter simply is, Mr. Speaker, that as a government and as a Province we were made aware of this problem sometime towards the latter part of last week and we immediately, as we became aware of it, took whatever action we could in requesting and directing that the matter be addressed as a very important, sensitive matter and that it be addressed as quickly as possible. So any other talk or innuendo is just that, Mr. Speaker, and I have no intention of trying to respond to it. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hen. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, there is no innu~ndo. The federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Fraser) has said that Canada has been protesting this overfishing by the West Germans for over two months. That is the minister's federal counterpart. They are not my words, they are his. I believe the hon. gentleman, that when he was made aware of it last Friday, he made representation. I do not doubt that at all. But my question because we overfishing worth of is very important, are talking about the of some $40 million fish offshore.

My question to him is: Are we being taken for granted by the federal minister because of two political parties being of the same stripe? But in view of that situation, in view of the fact that he was not consul ted until last Friday, that R314

the provincial department heard nothing about it, will the minister agree that the federal government has neglected its d11ty by not telling the provincial minister about this stealing of our resource, the pirating of that resource? And let me ask him this question, and I know that in former years this government would have done it: Would he also agree to an all-party, unanimous motion from this House condemning the federal government for its action in not consulting with the provincial government? Or just what does he propose to do to see that it does not happen in the future? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I have already told the hon. gentleman and the House that immediately we became aware of this problem as a government, we made representation inunediately to the federal minister. I volunteered to table that ·and I will table it as soon as I can get a copy that is in appropriate order to table. I do not have it with me now, I just have the working copy draft, that we were using last week. So I have already told the hon. gentleman that, Mr. Speaker.

This government did not sit back for one minute after we became aware that the problem existed, when we inunediately made representation to our counterparts in Ottawa. As to any kind of a unanimous resolution or something of that nature, I believe it would be more in order for the hon. gentleman who asked the question, who is House Leader for the Opposition (Mr. Tulk), to consult with the appropriate person on this side. I am not going to make conuni trnents one way L315 7 May 1985 or another on that, Mr. Speaker, during Question Period. MR. TULK: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the whole scenario that we are looking at here is as a result of Mr. Mulroney wanting to keep his image in place while attending the Bonn Economic Summit? Is that part of the reason? Is that the problem? Are we keeping quiet in this House because there is a P.C. Government in Ottawa and a P. c. Prime Minister who wants to keep his image intact so that he can look good, shake hands and smile at everybody when he is in West Germany? MR. BARRY: At the expense of Newfoundland fishermen. MR.

TULK: At the expense of Newfoundland, to the tune of $40 million worth of fish. Let me ask the minister then, in light of that, has he yet found out from his federal counterpart whether the federal government asked Mr. Mulroney when he went to Bonn to make representation to the West Ge:qnan Government and just what carne about as a result of that? Or did it sit back, as it has been known to do in budgets and so on that have been brought down by the P.C. Government last Fall, did it just sit down and take what the federal government passed out? ~.Ye are talking about $40 million worth of Newfoundland fish! MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon •. the Minister of Fisheries. R315

MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman does not have a monopoly on what we are talking about. I know very well what we are talking about and those of us in the government here know very well what we are talking about. If I stood up and took four or five minutes to make a political speech in at; tempting to answer a question, you would have a rash of points of order from the other side. The fact of the matter, Mr.

Speaker, is that, if the hon. gentleman was interested in following current e~rents in the country, he would have heard that the Prime Minister said yesterday that, yes, in fact he did raise this matter with the West Ge~-man Chancellor and there is no higher political or diplomatic order to raise it with than th e leader of West Germany. The Prime Minister has already indicated that he did that. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWI CK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health (Dr. Twomey).

As we all know, everybody who is being paid out of the public purse these days is in, or is the process of being in or is coming out of a zero-zero freeze for the last couple of years. I have been told that as of April 1 this year one of the largest and most highly paid groups covered by it, namely the doctors practicing in this Province. On Apri l 1 the Newfoundland Medical Association has instructed all its member doctors to increase their fee structure by 10 per cent. I would like to know from the Minister of Health (Dr.

Twomey) whether, first L316 7 May 1985 of all, this is true and what the department is doing about it if it is? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. DR. TWOMEY: I believe what you have read is the recommendation of the Newfoundland Medical Association to have their official billing book increased by the percentage which you mentioned. This is used for purposes such as billing people from other provinces, dealing with other federal agencies and other foreign countries. It has nothing at all to do with the agreement between the Newfoundland Medical Association and the Department of Health. MR.

FENWICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary the member for Menihek. MR. FENWI CK: hon. the What the minister has said is that it does not apply to MCP payments and so on. There is a certain number of services not covered by MCP, some by Worker' s Compensation, others that individuals have to pay for themselves such as medicals and so on and so forth. Can he assure me now that these kinds of payments are not covered by this increase? MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Minister of Health. DR.

TWOMEY: I give you assurance that Workers' Compensation charges are not covered by the one that you have just mentioned because there is an agreement between the Workers' R316

Compensation Board Newfoundland Medical on its fee schedule. and the Association The one other question that I am sure that you are asking is about special health examinations. I can not give you that assurance because there is not an agreement on that between the Newfoundland Medical Association and the Department of Health. MR. FENWICK: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary the hon. the member-for Menihek. MR.

FENWICK: Since there is a possibility that the individuals in this Province are the only people actually paying the extra increase I would like to ask the Minister of Health if he could enquire whether or not that actually is the case and get back to us with the information, and whether or not private individuals are now having to pay 10 per cent more despite the fact that there is supposed be a general freeze on these costs. MR. SPEAKER: ·The hon. the Minister of Health. DR.

TWOMEY: I can give you the assurance that I will make enquiries, but I am sure that the Newfoundland Medical Association will not be able to give me an answer that will be universal. I think it is at the discretion of physicians if' they want to charge that extra 10 per cent when they are consulted about medical problems that are not covered by the agreement between MCP and the Department of Health. MR. FLIGHT: L317 7 May 1985 Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon •. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question to direct to the Premier and the reason I direct it to the Premier as opposed to the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Dinn) is that he himself has alluded to this issue on several occasions. The question is relative to the gold discovery in the Cinq Cerf area known now as the Chetwynd deposit. According to the present owners, the Chetwynd deposit could possibly result in a mining operation with a ten to fifteen life expectancy creating around 300 jobs.

Now the Premier has made a commitment that the Buchans miners - and he is well aware of the plight of not only the miners but of all the people in Buchans today · - would get priority for those jobs. Now the question is does that commitment still stand, that the Buchans miners will get priority for those jobs if indeed the Chetwynd deposit is indeed developed and a mine established? MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, in answer to that question, let me say that I indicated in an interview in Corner Brook some weeks ago that the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Dinn) and the government would be sitting down with the company when the development phase occurred for that ore deposit, if in fact it does occur, but if it does, and trying to negotiate with them some arrangement whereby R317

laid-off miners in other parts of the Province, including Buchans, would be given some preference for jobs there. I particularly made reference to Buchans in that interview because the questioner at the time asked me about the plight of the miners in Buchans. And I said there would be an opportunity, quite likely, those who still want to go mining, if and when that gold deposit was developed. So we will be pursuing that with the company to see whether we can get the miners who are now unemployed in Newfoundland employed there first, on a priority basis.

But liTe will have to negotiate that with the company, but that is our intention, and we will pursue that with the leasees of the ore deposit when they have decided that it is a commerical venture and that they want to put a development phase intc1 operation. So we will pursue it ~· MR. TULK: ·A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor Buchans, a supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I may have misinterpreted the Premier, but if I did he can correct me.

He seemed to have indicated to me in his answer that up to this point in time he has not discussed with the owners of the property the possibility of integrating the Buchans miners into that operation. As he knows we are talking about a new concept, one of ferrying in or flying miners in and out, something like we are doing in the offshore. There have been excerpts in the L318 7 May 1985 two or Northern three Miner where the owners of that property have indeed indicated, based on the the geological work they have done, based on diamond drilling, times and years and the number of employees and tonnage and grades.

So they are well on the way to looking at the possibility of bringing that mine · into production. It seems to me it is important that get in on the ground floor and let that company know what the government's commitment is to the people of Buchans, other miners and the miners in Buchans. And I would ask the Premier at what point why has it not already been done, because things are moving down there in Chetwynd. When does he intend to talk to the operators and · owners of the mines?

And if he does intend to, he should find out if that is the concept we are going with, with not creating a townsite as such in Chetwynd, but bringing in miners from other areas so we will not ha,re a town that is dependent upon a mine when it goes dry as Buchans did and as FARO did and as all other mines do? MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: We have ongoing discussions with the various mining companies in the Province when they are involved in exploration, and we have discussed the whole range of different ways of developing that ore deposit. The green light has not yet been given.

The hon. member can quote the Northern Miner or he can quote the Southern Miner or the Eastern Miner or whatever he likes, but these are magazines which we all know about that put out articles on different ore deposits and so on, and possible developments around Canada. But there has not R318

yet been a green light given to the development of that ore deposit. They are still toying with various ways of developing the ore deposit. Now we have had talks with them before the present Minister of Mines _and Energy (Mr. Dinn) was appointed. The previous Minister of Mines and Energy, now the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe), he and I had talks with the company back even before they had the discoveries they have to date, when they would just have some initial discoveries.

So we have been talking with them as long as two years -ago about modes of development and about the job prospects, and who would get the jobs. All that has been done many, many months ago. But it cannot be finalized until such time as the company and its board of directors gives the green light for the capital that is going to be needed. And they are still toying or playing with different ways in which they a"fe going to develop it. It could be a fly-in/fly-out, it could be a townsite, no final decisions have been made. But all of the aspects of a development has been discussed fully with the Minister of Mines.

And we will continue to stay on top of it until, in fact, we have the kind of priority development phase that we would like to see and where we will push for the unemployed miners to get first crack at the jobs. MR. FLIGHT: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, the Premier has L319 7 May 1985 indicated that there has been correspondence or communication with the owners and operators. As he knows, we are talking about a new concept when it comes to ferrying or flying miners in and out.

I am wondering if the Premier is prepared to tell the House what the reaction of BP - Selco, the owners of that mine, was to that concept, to that mode of operation? Are they looking positively at developing the mine, if indeed it is ever developed, with that kind of view of bringing in miners from areas like Buchans as opposed to starting a townsite right on the site of the ore deposit? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Well, we are still in the discussion phase. The Minister of Mines (Mr. Dinn) might be able to add more to it than I can, so I will bow to the Minister of Mines.

There have been discussions on three or four different modes, but I will ask the Minister of Mines to further elaborate on it. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, the problem we have here is that we do not have a mine. Whilst we are in discussions with the company, and, as a matter of fact, within the next week or so the company will be making a presentation to the Resource Policy Committee of Cabinet again, until they can delineate the size and whether or not there will be a mine - you know, there is a good indication there - I do not think that we R319

should announce anything with respect to a mine or what the possibilities are there until we have the area delineated. They have spent $3.2 million, starting last September, and finished that part of the exploration phase up to the end of December, and they have another $6 million in there. I was there at a pres1~ conference a month or so ago when a reporter asked the President of Selco if there was going to be a mine here.

He said, 'Well, I am not in the habit of investing $10 million of investors' money wi1:hout a good possibility. ' But we do not know whether that mine will be operable if it is a mine - for five years, ten years, fifteen years or twenty years. MR. FLIGHT: What I am saying is if there is a mine will you advise the miners from Buchans? MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman was in the House before and he should learn the rules of the House, that he gets an opportunity to ask a question and then gives a minister the opportunity to answer the question.

Now, if he wants an answer, I will be quite happy to answer it. The fact of the matter is it is not delineated, we do not know what the size is,, and until they meet with the Resource Policy Conuni ttee in the next r,qeek or so, we will not be able to say whether it will be a fly-in/fly-out operation, whether a mine site will be developed there, or what the stor..y -is. We have discussed all different modes. MR. FLIGHT: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. L320 7 May 1985 MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the minister has indicated to the House that he and the Resource Policy Conuni ttee is going to meet with BP - Selco next week, and I presume they are going to tell the government their intentions, all I am asking is if the indication is that there may be a mine, whether it is next week, next month or next year, will the minister undertake now, and give this House a commitment, that he will indicate to that company, in his meeting next week or next month, that the government's intention and desire and their commitment is to have miners flown in, in this case particularly from the Buchans area and, as the Premier has indicated, miners from all over Newfoundland?

Will the minister undertake to indicate to the company, so that they can make their · plans for five years down the road, as the minister alludes to, that if indeed they start a mine that the mode of operation will be to fly miners in or ferry people in from the Buchans area to work in that mine? Will he indicate that definitely? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, we are not in the habit of telling people what to do before they outline what the possibilities are.

As I have indica ted to the hon. member, hopefully that will be done within the next couple of weeks but maybe it will just be an update of how far they have gone with their exploration activity at this point R320

in time. I do not have to give the hon. member a guarantee of anything. The Premier has already said that if it is a fly-in/fly-out operation then - MR. FLIGHT: Who decides that? That is what I am asking. MR. DINN: - he wfll be miners in specifically seeing to the from the it that Province, Buchans area, will be given preference for that sort of an operation. But if it is not, if there is a mine and a townsite developed, that kind of thing, a twenty year operation or a twenty-five year operation, then we would have to look at all the modes. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I am not 'sure to whom I should direct this question in view of the restructuring of the Cabinet positions, but it is to whatever minister whose job it is to protect Newfoundlanders and· Labradorians from harsh and unjust laws from the federal government respecting UIC. Mr. Speaker, I believe it might be the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr. Power).

My question is, in view of the seasonality of much of the labour force in this Province, is the minister aware of any attempt · by his federal counterpart to tinker with or to wreck the UIC programme, thus bringing hardship to the workers of this Province, particularly the seasonally employed workers? L321 7 May 1985 MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Certainly that is a hypothetical question, because we have not seen any tinkering with that UIC programme.

What the federal minister, Miss MacDonald, and I have been doing is everything we possibly can to improve the seasonal and permanent nature of jobs within Newfoundland through the training programmes we have, through the job creation programmes we have, and through the student Summer assistance programme we have this year. All those programmes are designed, Mr.

Speaker, to assist Newfoundlanders in every ·way possible to, on the one hand, be well trained for the jobs that are going to come up, and, on the other hand, to preserve the jobs they do have, and certainly to, in any way, guarantee and secure the jobs that we have in Newfoundland. Any possible changes to tTIC or other programmes that might happen in Newfoundland will certainly be dealt with from our point of view and the federal government's point of view of protecting the jobs we have, expanding upon the ones we have, and training people better for the jobs that are about to come. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bona vista North. MR. LUSH: Now, Mr. Speaker, the minister R321

cannot wiggle out of this this very important question on the basis of hypotheses. I would have thought that these hon. gentlemen specialized in hypotheses. Mr. Speaker, in view of the seriousness of this problem, had this happened two years ago the hon. gentlemen would have been on the airwaves: They heard rumblings of this, that there are going to be proposals with respect to changes to UIC regulations in this Province.

My question to the minister is, what representations has he made to this point in time to protect Newfoundlanders and Labradorians against any changes which will drastically affect the labour force in this Province, particularly the seasonal workers, the types that I have listed, fishermen, fish plant workers, construction workers, an entire list of them? MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNi chola s): Th~ hen. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The election may be over, but the Liberal Party of Newfc:lundland is just as inconsistent now as it was before. They tried to defeat all the members on this side of the House, they tried to defeat every single member on this side of the House, to defeat the government because we fought with the federal .Liberal government.

Now that we have a different approach and we are doing exactly what they recollUI\ended to us for _ three or four years in a row, now that we are diplomatic, now that we are working behind the scenes, now that we are doing our jobs in a L322 7 May 1985 different way, that approach is wrong and they want us to go back and fight in public. Obviously, Mr. Speaker, that is not the way we are going to do business. We are going to represent the workers in Newfoundland, seasonal and otherwise, in a very responsible fashion.

There has been a vast amount of correspondence and meetings between myself and the federal minister, and the bureaucrats involved, to make sure we protect the jobs that we do have. We are going to continue, and certainly as one minister I am going to continue, in doing the work in that same responsible, sensible, rational fashion as I have done in the past. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! The time for Q~estion Period has expired. Notices of Motion MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I am doing what the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout) asked me to do.

I give notice that I wili on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a motion as follows: That this hon. House unanimously condemns the federal government for not consulting with the provincial government concerning overfishing by West Germans in offshore Newfoundland even though the federal government was aware for some two months that the West Germans were pirating over $40 million worth of Newfoundland fish. Mr. Speaker, I R322

ask leave of this hen. House to have this motion introduced and put to a vote immediately, today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: A private member can only have one motion on the Order Paper at a time and there is already one standing in the name of the hen. member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk).

If the hen. member for Fogo wants to address things · appropriately without playing his petty little politics with the matter, we might have considered it otherwise. · If he wants to try to use the House in this manner, we will go by the rules of the House. MR. BARRY: To that point of order. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hen. the Leader of the Opposition, to that point of order. MR. BARRY: The Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) knows full well, Mr. Speaker, that if members are prepared to support such a resolution all that is required is to give unanimous consent. Now we noticed the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Rideout) going up and whispering - unfortunately he did not whisper quietly enough pointing out to the Government House Leader that the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) had another motion on the Order Paper so that he would not have to deal with the content of this motion. Now if L323 7 May 1985 members opposite are prepared to live up to their commitment to fight for the fishermen of this Province, it is about time we found out where they stand. Mr. Speaker, are they so cowed by the government of Canada that they will try and use every procedural technicality to try and avoid dealing with the content of this message?

Will they give leave or will they not? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: To that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) suddenly now has awakened out of his sleep for the last thirty minutes or so. Was he around when the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout) indicated . . that we have taken the strongest possible measures, and so lndicated to the federal government.

I have personally been on to the Prime Minister's office, and when the Prime Minister went to West Germany he raised the issue with the Chancellor because we were on to him about it. The Prime Minister called back yesterday to tell me personally that he had raised the matter with the West German Chancellor. We are doing all we can with the federal government and therefore this resolution is unnecessary. MR. BARRY: Why did they not tell you about it two months ago? MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. R323

MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order,. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me p1oint out to the Premier the essence of this motion and then perhaps he will allow it. We are not condemning the provincial government, we are not even condemning the Premier today - tomorrow maybe, but not today - we are condemning his federal counterpart in Ottawa for not consulting with him even though he has know that this has been going on for two months.

For him to stand up and say that since Frj._d.ay he has been talking to the Prime Minister about a certain problem, or sometime last week he was talk.ing about it,, is sheer nonsense. Give leave and let us condemn your Tory counterparts in Ottawa. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! To that point of order, the motion is not in order unless there is unanimous leave of the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Nay. MR. SPEAKER: The motion is not in order. Petitions MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: Mr.

Spea:;cer, I rise to present a petition signed by 2,186 people. L324 7 May 1985 The prayer of the petition: "We do pray that the government set one electrical rate for all citizens in Newfoundland regardless as to where they live." The people who signed this petition, Sir, are from Ship Cove, Great Brehat, St. Ant~ony Bight, St. Carols, Wild Bight, Quirpon, Raleigh, Strai tsview, Goose Cove, Hay Cove, Griquet, St. Lunaire, L'Anse-su-Meadow, Noddy Bay, Cook's Harbour, Boat Harbour and St. Anthony. It is my pleasure to support the prayer of this petition.

There is a subtle, a slight difference in the tone of this petition, Mr. Speaker, from that in the few similar petitions that have been presented to this hon. House in the past few days.

Whereas this petition is concerned with the electricity rates, it is chiefly concerned with the electricity rates where diesel generated power is in existence. The electrical rates present a very severe problem all over Newfoundland, as this hen. House is aware, but the rates are especialiy more severe to the people in the towns and communities which are named in this petition. In these communities and towns, Mr. Speaker, after the consumers use 500 kilowatt-hours of electricity, the rate goes up.

And I maintain, Sir, that the government in a sense is delivering by way of a Crown corporation a commodity to these people, and when the government delivers liquor or beer or other luxury i terns, one price is maintained. And here is the government presenting electricity, which is such a basic need to our people today, but offering different rates just because you happened to live in a different part of our Province. My suggestion, Sir, to the government is, for goodness sakes, look at R324

• what is happening out there, look at the real world. There is an epidemic today in our Province, an epidemic which is concerned with electricity rates and nobody seems to be listening. I stand appalled when I see members on the other side of this House stand up and support the prayers of petitions which are asking that the electricity rates be dealt with. Who is supposed to deal with those rates if it is not the government? It is as if there were some other power over which the government had no control is forcing those high rates upon us. Mr. Speaker, support the petition. Thank you. MR. J. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker. I am prayer pleased to of this MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The bon. the member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support this petition, but at the same time, I would like to point out some very serious flaws in the bon. member's comments. If the same rate were to apply across the board to everyone · in Newfoundland, the rates would go up, because it is well known that the commercial rate is far in excess of the private rate.

Furthermore, when he suggests that there may be some power higher than the government controlling electricity rates, he fails to notice that the iron laws of economics, unfortunately, are beyond our power to control, and already, the private segment of the power-consuming public is being subsidized by over $20 million. L325 7 May 1985 I would also like to point out, Mr.

Speaker, that I think they are very hypocritical when they get up and say they support the petition but not one single person from the other side has suggested anything in the way of a solution, no hint, no suggestion, no tincture of a solution has come from the other side. If they want to be anything other than hypocritical, I suggest that "they sit down and put "their thinking caps on. There has been no evidence of that whatsoever, and I think it is a disgrace and a shame to play politics with such a sensitive issue.

I just hope that we can all get together on this, think hard, and come up with a proper solution. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the petition presented by the member for the 'Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Decker). The very least that should be done is for government to look at whet-her the cut-off point is appropriate today, the 500 kilowatt hours t'er month. Maybe this should be raised. But there are other questions with respect to the diesel system.

Is it appropriate for those on the diesel system, in addition to paying higher rates than others, once they go above a certain level of consumption, is it appropriate for them to have a fuel adjustment charge applied as well? We would be interested in hearing from some of the members, perhaps the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren). He is talking about how he is going to stand up for the people of R325

Labrador. Well, I know the people of Torngat Mountains would like to see where the member stands on this particular issuE!. Perhaps the member could stand up at the appropriate time in the House and give his response, and let this House know whether he is prepared to pressure his colleagues to deal with this problem which is creating untold hardship for those thousands · of people on diesel systems. We know, Mr. Speaker, it is a matter of money, but we also have to consider the costs that these people in rural aLreas of our Province are having to incur -.

We know that in the long-term we have to get as many a,reas of the Province as possible on hydro power, but in the interim, there are people being crushed, particularly people on fixed incomes, Mr. Speaker, as we pointed out yesterday in this House. Perhaps this is -something that again establishes the need for a public inquiry with representatives of those consumers in diesel areas to let us see whether there is anything we can do to keep costs down for the people with respect to electricity. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas ): The hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to present a petition signed by 141 people, concerning the high rate of electricity in this Province. The prayer of the petition reads: "We, the concerned citizens of Newfoundla~d and Labrador, do hereby protest against the increased electricity rates in our Province. As you are aware from the news media conc•arning the L326 7 May 1985 astronomical jump from December to January in our light bills, something has to be done. We are asking for your help and support in signing this petition to help stop high electricity rates.

We therefore present it to our MHA in the Newfoundland House of Assembly." Mr. Speaker, this petition is signed by 141 people and the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Decker) just presented a similar petition. The member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) responded to the member for the Strait of Belle Isle, saying that if we were to have one rate of electricity for everybody in the Province, some people would have to pay more. We pay the same sales tax, we pay the same income tax, we pay the same rate of tax in other instances, Mr. Speaker. Why is it that we have five different rates for electricity?

If the people here in St. John's were aware of the electrical rates that apply to the twenty-one communities, for example, in my .own district and in Torngat and some of the rural areas on the Island, then I am sure they would not mind an increase of a couple of dollars. This petition is concerned with the fuel adjustment charges. Another member on the government side asked us for solutions. We are not the government.

We do not have economists and research people behind us, and that is why we are asking, and the ladies from Flatrock are also asking, that an inquiry be set up with consumers so that we will fi~d out, Mr. Speaker, what can be done about the problem. Along with an inquiry, something R326

needs to be done now on behalf of widows, single mothers, people on low income, and people who have been asked to sign over their child tax credit to prevent their electricity being cut off, Mr. Speaker. Something must be done to help these people. As the former Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) said, he is quite aware of the suffering of the working poor. Just as low income groups are provided with a drug card by Social Services, surely, through _ that department, these people could receive assistance to help with a portion of their electrical bills.

We have children in this Province who suffer nutritionally because of high electricity bills. They are not getting proper food or heating in their homes, as well as proper clothing as parents have to make vital decisions. It has -been proven, Mr. Speaker, and the Minister of Justice (Ms Verge) will confirm this - and I hope she will support this petition and try to raise it in other matters - the group in our society in Canada and Newfoundland as a whole that are suffering the most are the single women or the widows of our Province over sixty.

They are unskilled, their husbands have passed away, those that have married, and they find out, Mr. Speaker, that they cannot maintain their independence. They cannot live in their own homes any more and they have to go in with family members or they have to go in boarding homes and give up their independence. !viR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the member has spoken for five minutes. He can only continue by leave. L327 7 May 1985 Does the hon. member have leave? SOME BON. MEMBERS : By leave. MR. SPEAKER: Leave is granted. MR. HISCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In cluing up, Mr.

Speaker, I ask that this petition be put on the appropriate desk and something finally be done about it. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the prayer, the spirit and concern that is expressed in the petition just presented by the hon. the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock). I would also like to address some of my coii1Illents to the two petitions that have been presented. As I said last week or a couple of weeks ago, here you have the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) , Mr. Speaker, on the opposite side of the House.

This is the same gentleman who was Minister of Mines and Energy on this side of the House and who could find no easy, simplistic and quick solution to this problem that is now being raised. MR. BARRY: How many years ago? PREMIER PECKFORD: Many years ago. MR. BARRY: Times change. PREMIER PECKFORD: R327

Oh, yes they do. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: And now, Mr. Speaker, their other excuse is when you ask them for ideas they do not have ·ideas. Suddenly when you become government you get immersed miraculously with a whole bunch of ideas. These hon. members of the House of Assembly who are supposed to have ideas, Mr. Speaker, and they have not come up with one idea. MR. BARRY: Set up that public inquiry. is one idea •• PREMIER PECKFORD: I was quiet, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: That I am hitting a sensitive nerve now, Mr.

Speaker. Can I have the courtesy of silence in the same way as I have given. The bon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) was not prepared to do anything when he was Minister of Mines and Energy, when he was responsible for Hydro, to try to help keep electrical rates down when they were still going up and now that he is Leader of the Opposition he has got al l the answers. MR. BARRY: They were a lot lower then. PREMIER PECKFORD: They were on the way up and the L328 7 May 1985 Bon. leader about it. did I not am do anything hitting a sensative nerve now. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Order, please! The hon. the Premier asked for silence. Every hon. member is entitled to silence when he asks for it. I would ask all hon. members to remember that. The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker, we are hitting a sensitive nerve. The Leader of the Opposition cannot take it. Electrical rates were going up and he was not smart enough to have an answer to it. MR. HISCOCK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! A point of order the hon. the member for Eagle River. MR.

HI SCOC K: The petitions that were presented on both sides basically asked that something be done. They did not asked for a shouting match to go o.n between the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) and the Premier. Mr. Speaker, with regard to fuel adjustment, it ·was not there at that time and, Mr. Speaker, the people of this Province, the working poor, the widows and other people of the Province want a solution. MR . SP EAKER: R328

Order, please! There is no point of order. The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, thank you, very much. Holyrood was built when the Leader of the Opposition was Minister of Mines and Energy and because this year is the driest year in thirty-six years, that is the reason why some of the ele_ctrical rates went up. Holyrood Thermo Generating Plant - MR. BARRY: Which one? PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition did not realize that when he was Minister of Mines and Energy he was responsible for Newfoundland Hydro which also had a thermo generating unit. MR.

BARRY: I did not build it. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: No, of course he did not build it. He just made sure it kept open so that we could help give everybody electricity when all the water was generated, Mr. Speaker. What is the answer the Opposition has now? 'We do not have any answers. The government is supposed to have all the answers. Wash our hands clean of it.' SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! L329 7 May 1985 PREMIER PECKFORD: Here is the alternative government that wants to be the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador.

What is their answer to high electrical rates? 'We do not know. The government is supposed to know.' You would think that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) would have all the answers. MR. BARRY: Set up the inquiry. There is your answer. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. PREMIER: So you want to hide behind an inquiry. MR. BARRY: Do you mean like the unemployment inquiry? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! Order, please!

I do not know if some hon. members think that I am the new teacher and the students are trying me on for size but when an han. asks for silence when speaking he will get it. The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: member he is Thank you, very much, Mr. Speaker. So we have here now all of these petitions coming in which the Opposition tries to get behind and tries to support. And we also have the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) there, sitting in his place, mouthing these lovely platitudes, the very member of the R329

House who knew in his heart and soul and knows today in his heart and soul that there are no easy answers to the electz·ical rates. Not only that, Mr. Speaker, he has inherited a party whose policy in the 1960s was to give away power. And that is why we have high electrical rates because of the infamous hydro contract.

The other thing the members of the Opposition will not give credit to is that this very year we have subsidized electrical rates in this Province to the tune of $40 million, $20 millio:n to the domestic consumers that the hon. member was just referring to, and $20 million to the industrial consumers to create jobs. Too bad, Mr. Speaker, that the new members of the Opposition could not have a leader who would stand behind the position he took when he was on this side of the House. SOME HON. MEMBER S : Hear, hear! MR. FLI GHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to support the petition so ably presented by my colleague and so unably supported by the Premier. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Dinn) knows that Newfoundland Hydro have indicated to Cabinet that they must make a decision this year. In 1990, five years from now, which will be five more years of having the fuel adjustment charged that we have been murdered with this past four or five years, they must make a L330 7 May 1985 decision as to where a new source of power will be developed. We are going to run short of electricity in 1990, so we have five years.

We either have to have an intertie with Labrador or we have to increase the generating capacity of Holyrood. Now, Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland Hydro has told the minister that either that decision is made this year or this Province is in trouble in as far as electrical energy is concerned. If the solution is to increase the generating capacity of the thermo plant at Holyrood since there is no other hydro sources left on the Island, then what we are looking at is a doubling of the fuel adjustment charge, Mr. Speaker.

Every time the generating capacity of Holyrood is increased, fuel consumption is increased, and unless this government takes responsibility for it · and does something about it, one has to assume that the fuel adjustment charge will increase. And let us never forget that the people of · Newfoundland are not complaining about electrical rates set by the Public Utility Board. The people of Newfoundland are being wiped out by the fuel adjustment charge.

And there are all kinds of stories, maybe the minister might want to talk about it, there are all kinds of stories about why so much fuel is being consummed in Holyrood. MR. J. CARTER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKE R (McNic holas): Order, please! A point . of order, the hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the people who signed R330

that petition obviously wanted a member to speak on behalf of that petition. They did not want some hypothetical domesday scenario painted for them. I think it is quite out of order. MR. FLIGHT: Those are facts. ignorant. Do not be so MR. J. CARTER: The hon. gentleman is quite out of order in painting a hypothetical doomsday situation. MR. BARRY: To that point of Speaker. order, MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Mr. To that point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: We see members opposite, including the member for St. John 1 s North (Mr. J.

Carter) , beginning to squirm as the pressure that started this grass roots movement started by ladies from the district of the 'member for St. John 1 s East Extern (Mr. Hickey) , but spreading all across this Province - starts to be applied to members opposite. We see the Premier and we see members squirm because they know, members of this House know, and everybody in Newfoundland knows, Mr. Speaker, that the setting up of a public enquiry is the only way to establish the confidence of the consumer that everything is being done that should be done.

Confidence has been lost in the Public Utilities Board, confidence is being lost in the ability of government opposite to do what should be done to keep cost down, to keep tabs on whether Newfoundland Hydro is getting the best price it can for oil, for L331 7 May 1985 example. If government does not have the courage to set up that inquiry all the points of order of the members opposite, including the member for St. John 1 s North (Mr. J. Carter) , are not going to stop the people of this Province from getting up and marching on this building to get action from this government, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order. no point of order. There is The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, the government controls the rates of electricity. There was legislation passed through this House in 1977 that have effectively tied the hands of the Public Utilities Board. The governmen~ has the right to set electric rates in this Province, and so the government must accept the responsibility for electrical rates that we are living under.

It is not necessarily the rates as such, it is the fuel adjustment charge that is creating the problems for Newfoundlanders, Mr. Speaker. And if ever there was a contradiction in terms, it was seeing the Minister of Justice (Ms. Verge) a few days ago, Mr. Speaker, who is part of the inner circle, who has the responsibility for tackling this problem, standing up and presenting a petition against the actions or inactions of her own government. MR. BARRY: Hypocritical. MR. FLIGHT: R331

Hypocritical. She is there. She is part of the problem, Mr. Speaker. I would like to see her become part of the sol uti on, and so would all of the people in Newfoundland. It is incumbent on the minister to tell her Cabinet, to tell her Minister of Energy (Mr. Dinn), to tell her Premier, that her consti tue:r.tts cannot survive any more on this.

If the fuel adjustment charge keeps going up, and if her government, because her Cabinet has to make! a decision this year as to whether the generating capacity of Holyrood is to be expanded, and the minute that decision is made, up goes the fuel adjustment charge for her constituents. Mr. Speaker, it is incumbent upon the Minister of Justice not to be hypo,cri tical in this House and to go to the Cabinet and say, I want the kind of action taken on th is that the Premier promised, not during the election, prior to the election.

Prior to the election the Premier went on Here and Now and said that we have a short-term solution for fuel adjustment and we will be announcing a long-term solution fairly quickly. There is only one solution, Mr. Speaker, one is the setting up that public inquiry to get the confidence back of the people, as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) said, and the other solution is be prepared to do something about that fuel adjustment charge. Mr. Speaker, having said that I support the petition so ably presented by my colleague. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! Orders of the Day L332 7 May 1985 MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): Motion 2. Motion, the hon. Mines and Energy bill, "An Act Newfoundland Corporation Act, No.l6) the Minister of to To And introduce a Amend The Labrador 195P. (Bill on motion, first time, Bill No. 16, read a ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, that the hen. the Minister Responsible for Housing to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation Act". (Bill No. 20). on motion, Bill No. 20, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: Address in Reply.

The debate hen. the Mountains was adjourned by the member for Torngat who has twenty-one minutes left. The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. WARREN : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. During the Question Period, Mr. Speaker, the hon. the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) asked the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout) whether or not there have been any consultations between the Prime Minister and Helmut Kohl, the Chancellor of West Germany. I think the Premier said that there were ongoing negotiations. Since the Minister of Fisheries sent a R332

telegram to the Prime Minister outlining our concern, I think the hon. member for Fogo should also advise the House whether his Party also sent such a telegram. If there were telegrams from both major Parties and the New Democratic Party as well, I think, Mr. Speaker, that would constitute the unanimous opinion of this House. MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNic holas): A point of order, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me point out to the hen. gentleman from Torngat Mountains (Mr.

Warren) that we could have saved the .taxpayers some very worthwhile dollars to be spent in his district or mine if his House Leader (Mr. Marshall) had given leave and unanimous consent of the House to send that motion condemning the federal government. I know the member for Torngat Mountains, having sat with him over here, would condemn any government for. MR. MARSHALL: To that point Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: of order, Mr. To that point of order, the hen. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, that is not a point of order.

The hon. gentleman is just getting up interrupting the hen. member for Torngat Mountains {Mr. Warren) . It is not a point of order. I think if the hon. gentleman persists in interrupting speeches without valid points of order he is disrupting the House, L333 7 May 1985 and there are certain appropriate remedies that will have to be taken. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order,_ there is no point of order. The hen. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, continuing from yesterday, I wish to say that I believe the hen. member for Fogo (Mr.

Tulk) is a wee bit upset that two of his former colleagues decided there was no reason for us to remain on that side and so therefore we have taken steps to join a government that is committed to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, if anyone saw the Here and Now ,programme y~sterday - in fact, I have to compliment CBC - one would realize that a very major event has taken place during the past two or three months. In fact, since February 8, Mr.

Speaker, a very major event has taken· place in my district and that is the commercial aspect of caribou meat, in fact, the Terrington co-op has placed a delicacy, caribou meat, in the various stores in Goose Bay and hopefully next year we will have the opportunity of purchasing caribou meat from my district in Sobey•s and Dominion or anywhere else in this Province. This is a commitment I received from this government, that they will try to help the people in Labrador and naturally, Mr. Speaker, here are the ways and means that they are going about doing it. R333

Now, Mr. Speaker, let me say something to former teachers. In fact, I believe fourteen teachers ran for the Liberal Party in the last election. Let me say something to them, Mr. Speaker. With all due respect, I believe there was some unrest in the last election with the various teachers throughout the Province, but let me say - MR. HISCOCK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! A point of order, the bon. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr.

Speaker, with regard to the Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development, the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) , when he talks about the commercial hunt and he talks about having co-operation, having one unified voice for all of Labrador, how can he turn _around and ask the _people of Labrador to have one unified voice when the people in the North receive special treatment,

whereas the people in Southern Labrador cannot even get access to the caribou? So if he is going to ask for co-operation, then he should treat all Labradorians equally, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no point of order. The bon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, frustrations member for I can understand the of the hon. the Eagle River (Mr. L334 7 May 1985 Hiscock) so I beg his indulgence in the few minutes I have left. Mr. Speaker, let me go back to the teachers.

I have talked to many teachers, particularly in my district during the election, and also other teachers in the Happy Valley - Goose Bay area, and let me say one thing that the teachers in Labrador are upset with. The teachers in Labrador are not upset with the zero/zero programme as much as they are upset that the NTA is not treating the teachers in Labrador equal. That is the problem, Mr. Speaker.

I think the time has come now that the NTA should consider a separate bargaining unit for teachers in Labrador and then the teachers would get a better voice and when they go to the negotiating table they will have a chance - MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker •. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the bon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the member for Torngat Mountains {Mr. Warren) is talking about equality.

I wonder i£ in his speech, in the few words of wisdom he is going to give to this House, could he tell us what his position is with regards to the customers, and some of them, I guess, are in his district, the people in this Province who have to pay diesel rates over and above the hydroelectric rates in this Province when he has formerly ~called for a unified rate across this Province? MR. MARSHALL: To that point of order, Mr. R334

Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, what the hon. gentleman is doing is completely out of order. The hon. gentleman is giving a speech on the Address in Reply. He has said nothing which is even on the face of it out of order, and the hon. gentleman opposite is just getting up and interrupting. I understand that the hon. ge~tlemen are still smarting over the fact that the honourable and valued member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) came over to the government side of the House, but that does not give them licence, Mr.

Speaker, every time the hon. gentleman is speaking, to get up guise of a point of order to interrupt the hon. gentleman because when they are doing that they are infringing the privileges not only of the hon. gentleman but privileges of the House as well. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, this is a debate on the Address in Reply and it is a fairly wide-open debate and the bon. member has a right to speak fairly broadly. If hon. members disagree, or if in their opinion he is incorrect, they will have an opportunity to speak to the cause. The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR.

WARREN: I will make a promise to you, Mr. Speaker, that I will not mention any telephone calls I received on February 7 if that is what is upsetting the bon. member. L335 7 May 1985 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I believe it is high time that the teachers in Labrador, in an isolated area of this Province, have the respect of the NTA and have tbeir own bargaining unit. I believe at the same time that Mr.

Fraser Marsh with NAPE should also consider that in the last three negotiations the Northern free package that the provincial employees were asking for was dropped by the NAPE negotiators, because the members of NAPE stationeq in Labrador are only a minority in all of the civil service. Therefore, I am calling upon NAPE and the N'l'A to look at the Labrador teachers and the civil servants as separate bargaining units and they will be better off. MR. FUREY: . What about the "Northern fishery? MR. WARREN: I say to the bon. member for St. Barbe that I believe he will only be here for a short· time.

However, I would also say to him, Mr. Speaker, that this government, in the Throne Speech, has shown its commitment to the establishment of the Northern fishery. In fact, it was Mr. Rompkey, in the last federal Liberal government, who dragged his feet and neglected the setting up of the Northern fishery. Mr. Speaker, I was in that party when there were negotiations ongoing with Mr. Rompkey, but with very little success. Let me continue and advise the hon. R335

gentleman - he has only been here a couple of three weeks - that he should realize that Labrador is a vast territory. MR. FUREY: With no Cabinet minister. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas ): Order, please! MR. WARREN: It may have no Cabinet minister, Mr. Speaker, but it does have a loud voice in government. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! When an hon. member is speaking he has the right to be heard in silence. The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARRE N: Mr.

Speaker, there will be some good things happening in Labrador in the next few days, in the next few months, and in the next few years. There wil~ be great things happening because of this government. In fact, tenders have been called, or will be called within the next ten days, for a new school in Nain. Which government is building the new school in Nain? Let us look at some of the othe!r things happening: We are asking for a Consumer Affairs office to be set up in Labrador. I think it is needed. Yes, Mr. Speaker, it is needed and I will say to the hon. the member for Menihek (Mr.

Fenwick), the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock), and also the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Kelland), that I am willing to ~.;rork with them. L336 7 May 1985 Mr. Speaker, I am not too big, or too pious, or whatever words you want to apply to me. In past years I have gotten up in this House, on the other side, and I have made accusations against the Premier and against members on this side, said they were not doing what was best for Labrador, that they betrayed the people of Labrador. In fact, I have copies of the second last brochure I issued in my district and some good things are there, Mr. Speaker.

It is very, very valuable. Let me also say that I have the last propaganda sheet that the candidate who tried to defeat me issued. There was something in it in the Inuit language, which I had the opportunity of getting translated today, and it said in one sentence, 'You Inuit people always voted Liberal. I know you are not going to let the Liberals down this time.' It goes to show, Mr. Speaker, that neither Mr. Woodward nor the Liberal Party can tell the Inuit people in Labrador who they should vote for. SOME BON. ME MBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

WARREN : The Inuit people will vote for the person they believe is best for them. Mr. Speaker, let quote two short paragraphs of my closing address to the Labrador Development Conference last week because I think it is very vi tal, very valuable to all members of this House. I said, 'My challenge is your challenge. We all know how to approach a chal~enge for we are here to conquer a challenge, and I am determined to help you if you will help me.' And that is the way this government will work. It . R336

has to be Speaker. a two-way street, Mr. Mr. Speaker, in the last paragraph I said, 'The people of Torngat Mountains have given me their support at the ballot box. Now I am prepared to support all of you to accomplish the goals which you have set as a result of this conference, and your goals will be my goals~ MR. TULK: That is powerful stuff, whoever wrote it for you. MR. WARREN: I believe I have been in this House long enough that when I want to express my views on Labrador and the Labrador people I do not need a . former teacher from Fogo tell me what to say. SOME BON. MEMBERS : Hear, he.ar! MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, let me also say, in case members do not know, that that conference was considered a success by the participants. Here are some of the remarks made by the participants: 'Conference well represented, well organized, and covered a lot of very important issues.

Trusting that the important points brought out in the conference will get serious consideration and indeed be included in the proposal.' Number 5 said, ' I must say we had a good session of meetings and I now feel that the groundwork has been laid and we will now get on and produce a development plan and put some of the ideas in action.' Number nine says, 'I think this is going to make a difference to government's L337 7 May 1985 attitude Labrador, feel.' toward the people . of knowing how the people Mr.

Speaker, I said to the media on February 8 that I wanted more consulation with Labrador, I wanted this government to pay more attention to Labrador, and I can see, in the rna tter of two short months - two short months tomorrow - that this goveriunent has its determination and shown its that commitment to make sure Labrador and the people Labrador will not be forgotten. of I have much to say, and I am sure I will have plenty of opportunity to say it during this session. However, the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.

Decker) used a biblical quotation yesterday in his closing remarks, so I think it would be appropriate for me to close with a biblical quotation also, and it is in response to some of the members on the other side who said yesterday, 'Why do we all not come over there?' Let me close with this biblical quotation, 'Many are called but few are chosen. ' SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, h.ear ! MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. GILBERT: Mr.

Speaker, first of all, I extend my congratulations to you on being appointed to the important position of Speaker of this House. I anticipate that you R337

will execute the duties of the position with the fairness and good judgement that your predecessors have shown. I am confident that all who wish to be heard will be, and opportunities for question and debate will be dispensed in the manner dictated by the rules and traditions of this hon. House. I also extend congratulations and best wishes to all members of the House who were successful in re-election and to those new members who, like myself, are here for the first time in. this hon. House.

In this regard, I would like to express my pleasure and­ appreciation to the people of Burgee - Bay d'Espoir for giving me the opportunity to represent them in this 40th General Assembly of the Newfoundland and Labrador Legislature. I take it as a great honour and one which was not given lightly, nor taken lightly. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to extend my sincere congratulations to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry), who is primarily responsible for the overwhelming increase in the popular vote and the great confidence the people of this Province have shown in the Liberal Party.

Leo Barry has brought about a new revitalization and a new beginning to the Liberal Party. This is proven by the high calibre of people who have been attracted to the Liberal Party by Leo Barry and by the fine people he has sitting in this hon. House today. does this Speech differ from the see i 1;., they are same. They talk Mr. Speaker, how from the Throne last six? As I basically the about the unemployment, welfare, but L338 same energy, there 7 May 1985 subjects, health and are no real differences.

Some 'future history student, as he reads this Speech and a few others that preceded it, will smile and say, 'Surely, the people could not accept such empty promises and such vague solutions year after year.' But there is a glaring difference in this Speech. Nothing has been blamed on the current federal government. I wonder why is it? Is it because they are of the same political belief as the members opposite? Does this mean that the inequalities which we have been led to believe existed in Newfoundland have disappeared?

They can still blame Churchill Falls on a government of twenty years ago, but they cannot come up with any solutions to the real problems of today, such as unemployment and skyrocketing hydro rates. ·What is in the Throne Speech that is going to help my district, the forgotten district of Burgee - Bay d' Espoir? The voters of Burgee - Bay d 'Espoir could not be bribed, bought or frightened into voting for a government that had represented the district for the last six years.

They were told that unless they elected a government member, they would not receive anything from the current government but they, like 52 per cent of all Newfoundland voters, decided they did not want a Tory government, and the next time they will get their wish. Now, the hon. member to my physical right and political left, yesterday used numbers as if they were painted on his forehead. And I am sure, Mr. Speaker, when he looks in the mirror and sees those -­ numbers on his forehead, they must be an awful weight, because as he looks across to the members opposite, he realizes that some of R338

JJ those numbers elected ten members on that side of the Bouse, and but for that, we would have a new government in Newfoundland today. And I am sure there are at least ten members over there who have the hon. member's picture on their desks and they thank him every morning when they go to work. Mr. Speaker, what is in the Throne Speech for the people of Burgee - Bay d'Espoir? The main problem in the area is unemployment, as it is in all of Newfoundland. In the Morrisville to St. Alban's -area, 75 per cent of all the people eligible for work are unemployed or living on a salary of less than $7,000 a year.

This is comprised of ten weeks on some sort of a make-work project and forty-two weeks of unemployment. In my days in the district, I went into homes where it was sad and sickening to see young men, thirty years old, sitting around with no hope, watching T.V. and saying, 'I think I might as well give this up. I do not want to work for ten weeks a year. I want someone to give me a job so that I can look after my family and guarantee my children a decent living. ' Those people do not want to continue such short-term employment.

They want permanent jobs, or even jobs that would give them six or eight months work a year, so they could at least move to the poverty line. There is another serious problem with youth unemployment. In the Morrisville to St. Alban's part of the Burgee - Bay d'Espoir district, there is virtually 100 per cent unemployment among people sixteen to twenty-four years of age. Again, Mr. Speaker, this is net always recognized, because some of the people have never L339 7 May 1985 worked, and under our system of government, they are not classed under statistics unless they have worked.

So when there is a Manpower project to hire people, unless they are what is commonly known in the trade as an 'exhaustee' , they are not classed and cannot go to work, hence, there are still no jobs for those people. Those young people who are unemployed will remain so because Statistics Canada and Canada Manpower do not want to increase the number of jobless. This is a tragedy brought about by a government that does not care about the suffering imposed upon innocent people. We have lost a generation to this problem of youth unemployment and it is time, Mr.

Speaker, that members opposite address some of the jobs promised in the most recent election. Mr. Speaker, the unemployed figures of three times the provincial average from the Morrisville to St. Alban's area of the Burgee - Bay d'Espoir district are the result of two problems mainly. The first one is big business. In 1940, Bowater established a logging export operation in this area. The residents of the Bay went to work at what seemed to be a better job and regular work, forsaking their traditional ways of life for a more secure future.

The bottom fell out of this dream when Bowater moved out in the mid-1950s, leaving a vacuum that has not yet been filled. Traditionally, the Bay d'Espoir people were employed in sawrnilling and boat building, supplemented by agriculture. When Bowater moved, the people tried to go back to their traditional roles but found that Bowater still had timber rights in this area, and another R339

avenue was closed to Bay d'Espoir. The next thing that happened was a thing called big government and then, a thing called Newfoundland Hydro - a promise unfulfilled. During the 1960s, a hydro project was started in Bay d' Espoir that built up the hopes of the residents. This created up to 3,000 jobs during the construction, and I might add that a Liberal Government started this project. The hydro was: not needed in Newfoundland at the time, but the Liberal Government of the time convinced Price (Nfld.) Limited, Bowater and ERCO to give them a commitment to become the primary users of the power from this source.

When they went in and got this commitment signed by Bowater, Abititi-Price and ERCO, they then went to the bank and negotiated the money to build a hydro project which was not needed. They did not need this power in Newfoundland at that time. And, with this, they borrowed on the future to put Newfoundlanders to work today. This would not be a bad policy for the present government to endorse. When the plans were initially made to attract industry to the Bay, one of the ideas was to make it a distribution centre for Central Newfoundland.

This was talked about for awhile and during that time there was great hope and expectation on the part of those people. They were told, 'A little bit further down the road we will have jobs for you.' Still, all they have to this day is the ten weeks work and forty-two weeks unemployment. With the change in government in the early 1970s, they were left with a promise that was not fulfilled, a broken promise from Hydro, and they are still wondering what happened to L340 7 May 1985 them. Today, Mr. Speaker, the cheapest power in Newfoundland and Labrador is coming from Bay d'Espoir Hydro.

Forty-two per cent of all the hydro in the Province comes from Bay d'Espoir. One hundred million dollars a year of Newfoundland's total hydro sales volume comes from Bay d'Espoir. In return, what does Newfoundland Hydro put back into Bay d'Espoir? AN HON. MEMBER: Absolutely nothing. MR. GILBERT: Not quite . ~nat. They put back seventy full-time jobs. AN HON. MEMBER: For how much money? MR. GIL BERT: For an annual $1 . million payroll. They used to hire six or seven temporary students in the Summertime. They have now cut out that.

In return for this $1 million salary they put in there, the electricity bills that ~ome out of the Bay d' Espoir area are $1 million, so I really do not think they put much in there. Now, in other areas, where we have a resource-based industry, a renewable industry, there is usually from those industries a grant in lieu of taxes. Newfoundland Hydro does not pay municipal taxes in that area.

In Grand Falls, Price-Abitibi pays grant in lieu of taxes, Kruger in Corner Brook are paying a .grant, Baie Verte Mines, which is a mine that has maybe a ten-year licence, they pay something to the municipality of Baie Verte, and in Wabush and Labrador City, there are grants in lieu of taxes. Yet, where we have one of the cheapest R340

resource industries that we have in Newfoundland - 42 per cent of the hydro that is produced in the province is taken from there nothing goes ·back into an area that has 75 per cent of the employed unemployed. MR. TULK: That owned by the Province, is it not? MR. GILBERT: That is owned by Newfoundland Hydro. So we have a problem there that nobody has addressed.

The people have changed their traditional lifestyle from that of being loggers, and working in sawmills to truck drivers, and heavy equipment operators with the expectation of plenty when that hydro project was finished and we were going to put a development in Bay d'Espoir. Nothing has happened. We have a very serious problem there, and Newfoundland Hydro can . sit as the Lord in the Manor, shall we say, without giving anything back to the taxpayers. The children of Bay d'Espoir do not have a hockey rink, they do not have a swimming pool, they barely got the amenities of life.

You know I know that Churchill Falls was created for hydro, so naturally they are different circumstances. However, some arrangement should be made with Newfoundland Hydro to pay a grant in lieu of taxes to help improve the way of life for Milltown, St. Alban's, and Morrisville. Now, Mr. Speaker, at the other end of district of Burgee-Bay d'Espoir, in Burgee, Ramea, Grey River, Francois, and McCallum areas, we have a reasonably good L341 7 May 1985 employment picture, because of the fact that those people still maintain the traditional role of Newfoundland, engaged full-time in the fisheries.

Their tradi tiona! lifestyle is there. It has been followed and despite the mismanagement of government down through the years the fishery is still alive and well in this part of the South Coast of Newfoundland. There is still hope for the people. They have a good lifestyle. I believe that if the .present government had spent more time working on the fishery instead of fighting with Ottawa over there an offshore would be oil agreement, at least 20,000 more Newfoundlanders working in the fishery today. MR. TULK: You are right on that. MR. GILBERT: This is the problem.

People in my district do not want to hear about the Atlantic Accord because they realize it is not going to help them. They realize it has no benefits for them whatsoever. They realize that whatever benefits were there were sold off when we agreed to produce this oil offshore. So they are more concerned, as want to talk oil. n And that someone said, "we about fish, not is the cry that the district that I goes up in represent. AN BON. MEMBER: out in my district they said, go home 'Brian•. MR. GILBERT: In my district they said, if there could be oil squeezed out of a cod fish, Mr. Peckford, would be all right.

Now we have a problem in Ramea R341

with Fisheries Products International. A problem that could develop in view of the fact that Fishery Products International are now operating a plant there, and it is possibly going to go on a six month basis, operating only for six months of the year. This is a serious matter of concern to the people who live in Ramea who have been used to working at least ten months of the year. So I think that we should look into this and some serious consideration should be taken into ensuring that that plant remains open all year.

The district that I represent has a serious problem in transportation, that is the Western end of it, the Burgeo part of it, Burgeo, Ramea, Grey River, and McCallum. In that part of the district Burgeo is connected to Newfoundland by a ninety mile dirt road, it leaves the Trans-Canada at Southwest Brook on the Province's West Coast, and this, most times is a path, and at the best of times, it is impassible. So in the Wintertime the road is not safe to travel, because the road is not really finished, and it is impossible to keep it open because it has not been completed. There is no room to plough snow.

Last year we had a situation where people almost died there when they were stuck there for four days without food and nobody to get to them. So I think it is something that we have to look at. Mr. Speaker, during the election a promise was made to complete thirty miles of this road this year. And I assume it will be done, when the secondary roads agreement is signed. I was led to believe during the election that this will be signed in time for to L342 7 May 1985 have the work done this year. Mr. Speaker, the Minister · for Transportation (Mr. Dawe) said that the ferry from Burgeo to Ramea is to be replaced.

I am sure I speak for all of the residents of Ramea, when I say, thank you for this election promise which will be kept. However, while we are waiting for the new ferry it would be very much appreciated if he could come up with $40,000 so they will be able to hire two more people to put on that Ramea ferry so that we would not leave people standing on the wharf in Ramea on a Saturday evening, if they wanted to get_off for the weekend. The problem is that that they have not got enough crew.

They can only take twenty passengers, where if they had the full complement of crew on that ferry, they can take the full complement of forty people. So I ask that, in the interim, can we possibly get that $40,000, which is not too much and bring the crew up to full force. And I wonder, when the new ferry goes there, will it . be big enough to take a mobile home? A lot of the people in Ramea want to live in mobile homes. Now it cost them an additional $1,300 to hire a CN Marine ferry to get a special trip to bring in a mobile home.

I think something should be addressed on this, and maybe in the building of the new ferry, provision should be made to have this included. Mr. Speaker, the coastal communities of Grey River, Francois, and McCallum depend upon CN Marine for their very survival. Last week . the CN Marine very casually and callously decided to cut back on the coastal service and save $1 million. The move will cost the people who live R342

.... in those communities expenses to travel, not to mention the added burden and misery caused by the . longer travel taken over very rough waters. Again, a decision made in Ottawa and, not supported too strongly by our Provincial Government. I talked to the federal member there and he says he is still working for it, and hopes to have the service to Hermitage reinstated some time this week. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: Because of your interjection. AN HON. MEMBER: No. MR. GILBERT: Well, anyhow, Mr.

Speaker, we hope that the ferry service to Hermitage will be effective because, as I said in the question to the hon. member last week, it is a matter of roads and ro~ds are constitutionally guaranteed to the people who live on the South Coast of Newfoundland. They do not have roads, they must depend on CN Marine. I again urge, Mr. Speaker, that the government should immediately contact their friends in Ottawa and have Mr. Mazankowski reinstate the regular coastal

schedule in its entirety. Mr. Speaker, health care is a major problem throughout the district of Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. First of all, there is not one senior citizen's home anywhere on the South Coast of Newfoundland, from Grand Bank to Port aux Basques, compared to fifty-five senior citizen's homes and licenced boarding homes on the Avalon Peninsula. Now I realize that the Avalon Peninsula has a L343 7 May 1985 higher concentration of population. However, a study released during the election revealed that Bay d'Espoir could support a fifty to sixty-bed senior citizen's home.

This was also promised to start this year with a completio .n ta~get of 1987. Mr. Speaker, I hope that the government will now honour this very worthy commitment. Are they going to follow the policy announced by the bon. Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) before the election, that Tory districts will get most of the benefits even if the need is great in Liberal districts? I really do not think that this is the democracy for which our forefathers fought. The people in the Bay d'Espoir area have to use the Grand Falls hospital.

There is presently a shortage of beds at this hospital but I do hope that the promised expansion goes ahead and that it will take care of the needs of the people of Bay d'Espoir. MR. TULK: If this government waits for them to vote Tory before giving it to them, this government will wait a long time. MR. GILBERT: Well, they have to wait right now. There are problems and suffering in the Bay d'Espoir area because of the fact that the hospital is not adequately staffed ~o look after the medical needs of the area.

During · the most recent election a staff clinic with a doctor and dental service was promised to Ramea and this service was to be provided on a weekly basis to Gray River and Francois. This is yet another election promise, Mr. Speaker, that I hope the government will be forced to keep because those people need R343

that service Mr. Speaker, hydro rates, like everywhere else in Newfoundland, is a major concern for all the residents of Burgee-Bay d'Espoir but there are certain differences in my district which I believe should be pointed out. First of all, the Bay d' Espoir area of my district supplied 42 per cent of the hydro for all of Newfoundland and they are concerned as to why they are not treated like the people who live in Churchill Falls where the residents receive free hydro. As I stated earlier, Bay d'Espoir should be given special consideration.

Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro puts approximately $1 million in salaries in the Bay area and they take out $1 million in electricity payments. I believe that something should be done by Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro for the people of the Bay d' Espoi t area. Hyro bills, which have become a nightmare to most of Newfoundland, are a catastrophe when you go to Burgee, Ramea, Grey River, Francois and McCall~ because they depend upon diesel generated power.

Consequently they are paying two and a half to three times the rate paid by the rest of Newfoundland and Labrador, plus the fuel adjustment charge, for a basic right to live in Newfoundland. I believe that the people of my district are being discriminated against because they have to use diesel generated power with the Bay d'Espoir generating station right on their doorstep. Every effort should be made by government to ensure that all people in Newfoundland and Labrador pay a standard rate of electricity.

How can anyone justify saying that a person living in Grey River should have to pay three times as much for electricity as a person, say, L344 7 May 1985 living in Foxtrap? Mr. Speaker, in conclusion what has happened to the brave new beginnings promised us when this most recent election was called? It is certainly not reflected in this Throne Speech. Are the Premier and his government going to pursue a vigorous and open discussion with Ottawa to ensure that Newfoundland gets its full share of the Canadian pie?

Or are we now to assume that because we have a Tory government in Ottawa and a Tory government in Newfoundland we will get our rights by osmosis? If that is the case, Mr. Speaker, I believe it will be a long time in seeping down and we cannot ajford to wait. What is the government going to do about the heartbreaking, mind-numbing curse of unemployment that is affecting 50 per cent of the people who live in Newfoundland? Mr. Speaker, they now have a mandate. I ask them to act on behalf of the people of Burgee-Bay d'Espoir to put Newfoundland back to work. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hen. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. R. AYLWARD: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. R. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, first of all, as all members who have spoken before me, I would like to congratulate you on your election to the Chair. I R344

am certain you will do an excellent job. We worked together in the last session as Deputy Speaker and Deputy Chairman of Committees and I am certain that the experience you gained - and I had a little myself - at that position will help you in your duties now. I look forward to working with you in this session. I. also wish to congratulate the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Greening) on being chosen as Deputy Speaker, a position that I was honoured to serve in for three years.

I must say I found it a very interesting and challenging job and I am sure the member for Terra Nova will do a better job than his predecessors. I certainly offer him any assistance, any help that I can give him, although it might or might not, benefit him. Also, I would like to congratulate the members of the House of Assembly who were re-elected in the last election; on both sides of the House, and particular congratulations to the new members. It was not so long ago that I was a new member. MR. CALLAN: I am a new member. MR. R. AYLWARD: The hon. member for Bellevue (Mr.

Ca .llan) is not quite a new member. he has been here longer than I have. But I do realize the challenges that the new members have and it is not an easy job to drop into. There is a lot of learning but I am sure you will do well. As for the mover and seconder of the Throne Speech I certainly am delighted to congratulate them. I do note that they spend an awful L345 7 May 1985 lot of time sitting in their seats learning, trying to find out what is going on in . the House, and I am sure they will be very good members for their districts.

But particularly I want to congratulate the hon. member for Humber Valley (Mr. Woodford) • In my new post now as Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development I am sure the member for Humber valley, being a full-time dairy farmer - and I do not know but he is the first full-time dairy farmer ever elected to the House, I am not sure - will be of great assistance to me in formulating agricultural policies that will benefit this Province as a whole and the agricultural industry generally which needs considerable help right now. Every time I hear the member for LaPoile's (Mr.

Mitchell) name mentioned I look in the wrong direction, but I certainly do congratulate him and I am sure that he will be a hard worker for his constituents. There is one other person who I am very delighted is back here in this House, and I am extremely delighted that he was appointed my parliamentary secretary, and that is the hon. member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren). MR. BUTT: The Labrador retriever. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. R. AYLWARD: Before the last provincial election I had the honour to visit the hon. member's district.

As Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development we toured his district and I was very impressed at the support that the R345

hon. gentleman had in his district and the esteem in which he was held by all of the people, and particularly the younger people in his district. He obviously has done an excellent job for them and I am certain he will do a better job for them now that he is on the right side of the House. But particularly I am happy to have his experience and advice in my duties as Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. Certainly he has shown to date a vast knowledge of the area and he has been of great assistance to me already. I look forward to working with him as my parliamentary secretary. MR.

WARREN: Thank you very much. MR. R. AYLWARD: The trouble now in my department became visible when I visited the hon. member's district. I just saw a photograph that was taken in Davis Inlet of myself, my parliamentary secretary now and my deputy minister, and the Indian Band Council, and the thing the three of us had in common- and one of the members of the Band Council got quite a kick out of it while we · were sitting there­ this is the new style for the departmental haircut. So we have something in common already. MR. WARREN And we are proud of it. MR. R.

AYLWARD: I am not sure that all the staff would go along with the haircut, but probably some day they will all have to. Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to be able to have a few words on the Throne Speech. Having had the opportunity to campaign in my own L346 7 May 1985 district and several others - as the hen. member for Fogo (Mr.

Tulk) mentioned I was in his district and I had the opportunity of visiting five other districts; I guess if you want to tally it up I was successful in three and not in two - but from campaigning in my own district and all around the Province it is obvious that the most critical concern of people in our Province today is jobs, no doubt everybody is aware of that. I do very much appreciate the suppport of the constituents who elected me. I would also like to congratulate the two candidates who ran against me. Mr. Sullivan and Mr. Sala ran very good campaigns. MR. WARREN: Much cleaner than some campaigns. MR. R.

AYLWARD: I do not know about other campaigns, clean or dirty, but I know both of these gentlemen put up very good campaigns, made me work harder than I ever had to work before .and I am delighted for it. It is very hard, when one had such dedicated constituents and workers, to overturn the sitting member. The people who worked on my campaign were as a very hard working team and kept it all together for me and I do want to thank them. The message that was received, no doubt, throughout the election was the need for more jobs.

In this Throne Speech there is not much recognition from the other side of the House that there are considerable mention of initiatives to create jobs and to protect jobs and I would just like to go over some of them briefly. There was one thing I would like to mention. It is too bad the hen. the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) is not here now. He was R346

kind of going around with his chest out saying how many votes he got and how many votes were against the government in the last election, , and I found it surprising that in my district, which was fairly well known as a PC district, the message that I was getting and the reason for quite a few people voting against this government is that when the election was called and we were doing such a fantastic job - and it was very obvious in my district that we were doing such a job - people were actually afraid that we were going to wipe out the Opposition completely.

I am not making this up, this was told to me during the campaign, that a lot of people voted against us, it seems, just to ensure that there would be an Opposition. Rightfully so, I do not argue against that, but it was a concern in my district that we wer~ going to get elected by too much of a majority. MR. TULK: Fifty-two per cent voted against. MR. R. AYLWARD: They had this mind and there for Opposition district, which not happen. concern in their was quite a vote parties in my ordinarily would Mr.

Speaker, just to get back to the Th .rone Speech and to point out some of the initiatives that this government are taking to create and protect the jobs that we have, there is not much recognition on the other side given to the Atlantic Accord. I mean, people seem to slough it off now that it is do~e - it is over, forget about it. This Atlantic Accord we had to fight very hard for. We went through some difficult times, and people criticized us, saying that L347 7 May 1985 if we had signed when Nova Scotia did, we would be way ahead now and we would have a lot more jobs.

But the thing that struck me was, immediately the Atlantic Accord was signed, there was an interview in which the Nova Scotia agreement and the Atlantic Accord were compared, and while there are those who say that we got no better deal than Nova Scotia right off the bat, the night the Accord was signed or the next morning, I watched the news and I saw Premier Buchannan from Nova Scotia saying he was very interested in what we signed and he would be looking for a - similar deal.

Obviously that means, if you do not want to listen to what this government is saying about the Atlantic Accord, it is better than the Nova Scotia deal. One particular thing that will start to help us this year is the $300 million development fund, a gift, a grant to the Province, not a $200 million loan that has to be repaid. The 75/25 initiative, we gladly put some money into it. We would put a lot more into it if we had it. MR. HISCOCK: Where do you get the 75? MR. R. AYLWARD: We are going to get it from the federal government through signing an Atlantic Accord. MR. HISCOCK: Where do you get the $75 million?

MR. R. AYLWARD: We are going to have to borrow it because we are a poor province. l-1R. HISCOCK: Is not that what you accused the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) of, wanting to buy votes? R347

MR. R. AYLWARD: Seventy-five million dollars is a lot easier to borrow and a lot easier to pay back than the $300 million or $400 million that he wanted to borrow. I mea,n you are comparing apples and oranges, it is not nearly the same. This development fund is much different than was offered to Nova Scotia and it will help us immediately. The offshore oil, to talk about it, and w1e have been trying to get this message across, is important to us, but everybody in this country knows that it is not the he-all and end-all. It is going to be used as a tool to develop our resources, that is pretty straightforward.

We will get revenues from this offshore oil resource, new money coming into the Province, so that we can develop the fisheries,. which has been, is and always will be the biggest industry we have. So we can get our fisheries back on track. It will help us in the forest industry and, of particular interest to me, we will have more monies to develop our agricultural industry. I will have some more to say about that a little later on. The Throne Speech points out where we are trying to develop a future for this Province and create permanent long-term jobs in the fisheries restructuring.

I know there are more monies needed for it, but it is an initiative to say that we are trying to get the fisheries back on track so that we can protect the jobs that we have and create more jobs. The fisheries is the single most important resource we will ever have. We have to concentrate on it~ as we have been, bu~ we need new monies and we expect to get this new money from our offshore L348 7 May 1985 oil resource. Another very important step in the development of this Province, and the creation of new jobs and the protection of jobs that we have now, is the deal on the Upper Churchill.

We have been in the past and will continue to try to get a better deal for this Province on the Upper Churchill, which also will give us more money than we have now. It will help us with our problems in electrical supply and electrical generation right now and in the cost of electricity, if we get a new deal. The most positive thing that I have heard, and the biggest contrast between now and what happened in the past, is that I heard the Prime Minister of Canada say on television that he is personally interested in getting a deal.

If we had to have the Prime Minister of Canada interested in this five years ago it probably would be straightened out now. One of the main problems at that time was that the Government of Canada, and particularly the ~rime Minister, was not interested in helping us get a better deal. So the Upper Churchill obviously is going to be another benefit when we get that agreement changed, in conjunction with the other five rivers, and more development within Labrador. One thing last year that benefited our economy and helped us out in real hard times was the mineral production in our Province.

Last year our mineral production reached almost a billion dollars, and this year it is expected to exceed a billion dollars, which will create new jobs and protect some of the jobs we have. One important government took initiative this in the last year R348

or so, and it has been helped out through the Burin Peninsula Development Fund, is the reactivation of the st. Lawrence mine. And not only the reactivation of the mine itself, which has been closed for quite a number of years, but we are going to get some secondary processing and some milling done on site in this Province through the reactivation of that mine, which will create new jobs, jobs that were not here for the last seven or eight years or more. I am not sure when that mine closed - it is more than seven; it must be ten years now since that mine closed - but the reactivation of the St.

Lawrence mine is important to the Burin Peninsula, and it is certainly important to the people of St.Lawrence. It will create 150 jobs in that area which, obviously, are desperately needed. The initiatives this government took on the protection of jobs in Baie Verte_ certainly is very important for that area. The future seems to be fairly optimistic. We have two very good prospects of gold finds in the Province.

They were mentioned earlier on today, but these gold mines will create new jobs and government is actively pursuing more exploration and, hopefully, will have some of the deposits explored and worked in the near future. Saying that unemployment is our biggest problem is certainly true, but youth unemployment has to be the most serious part of our unemployment situation right now. Youth unemployment has been much, much too great.

The youth I meet who ask me to find them jobs, and whom I sometimes place for interviews, continuously come back to me and say, 'Yes, we seem to be L349 7 May 1985 trained for this type of job. The employer said we have good academic standards, he would like to be able to hire us, but we do not have any experience.' That is the biggest problem our youth are having now.

To try and combat this the federal/provincial programme for job creation for youth this Summer, the $7 million programme, is supposed to allow and will allow 6,000 of our youth, over its duration, to get learning-related job experience, which is very important to our youth. They have to get experience so that they can go out into the job market on their own.

The youth or students who are now taking course at our vocational schools, technical schools, and university, if they can come out and work for a few Summers in the field in which they are b~ing trained and get that work experience, when they go back to the employer after they have graduated they can say, 'Yes, I have experience, you have no reason not to hire me now,' Work experience is very important for out youth, and the programme set up through the Department of Career Development and Advanced Studies will definitely help our youth, 6,000 of them.

The provincial government normally, as I understand it, in the course of a year would hire approximately 1,000 students. This is a positive side of this Throne Speech and a positive thing for our youth right now. It was mentioned yesterday by the han. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Decker) that this community development programme which is run by the Department of Social Services should be disbanded, thrown out. I think he R349

said, get rid of it, it is a shame. I know that in my district I promote this type of job, because people who have been unemployed, in the construction industry particularly, have been unemployed for the first time in their lives, and they have been unemployed for quite some time now. The intention of the programme is not just to get them off Social Services and put them on unemployment.

That is part of what happens, but the intention of the programme is to allow a person who wants to work the dignity of being able to say that he went out and worked for the day and earned his cheque, ne earned his employment, he is supporting his family. That is a big problem with people who are unemployed, the loss of self-esteem. Even though a lot of these jobs are not permanent, even though they are not the complete answer, we have to let people have · this opportunity of being able to go out and earn their living. But there is another benefit to that programme.

Projects are being done in communities, through the people who are availing of the programme, which would not necessarily be able to get these projects done. One thing in particular that I support very strongly is it helps the agricultural industry in my area. We are trying to develop some new land to try to allow our farmers to produce enough hay to operate their dairy farms. In my area we have sixteen to twenty-four people hired on to help clear this potential agricultural land, which will be of long-term benefit to this Province. The farmers themselves do not have the capital, or the cash to put into it.

They can do L350 7 May 1985 small, little bits at a time, but they need extra help. This community development programme has been very successful in my district. It has helped not only the people who are employed by the programme - MR. HISCOCK: Is that social assistance? MR. R. AYLWARD: No, it is the community development programme run by the Department of Social Services. This programme has not only helped the people it employs, it has helped people who would not be able to afford to have these projects done, not only in the agricultural industry but municipalities, recreation groups and others.

The fact that the provincial government has guaranteed 1 per cent of the capital cost of new public buildings for local art work might not seem important to a lot of people, but it is vital to our artists and to people who create, that 1 per cent of the cost of new public · buildings is set aside for the purchase of art objects produced in Newfoundland. This seems to be not very significant, but it is very helpful to the artists of this Province; it creates work and it also creates new art objects.

The hospital construction programme that this government has been continuing for the past few years, that also creates work. In creates construction jobs, and it also will provide new positions for people in the medical field or in the service areas in the hospitals. One important thing in my area too R350

and it was brought to my attention during the election and before; we have been working on it for quite some time now with the Department of Education and the school boards - is the commitment from the provincial government to spend $60 million on the school construction programme. I happen to be living in a very rapidly growing area. The school boards are having problems keeping up with the demand for classroom space. All the West end of the city of St. John's, the Conception Bay South area, and Mount Pearl are expanding faster than the school space is being provided.

So, rather than this year spending $13 million on school construction; the provincial government has guaranteed $20 million this year, $20 million next year and $20 million the year after, which will help with some of the problems of school construction and certainly will help my area and others. I am very proud and pleased to see in this Throne Speech that a new school for the deaf, which has been planned for quite some time, will be built. Ten million dollars has been committed to build a new school for the deaf, and I am doubly proud to have that school built in the district of Kilbride.

It will be on the site of the old sanitorium, the old Hill view Lodge, on the corner of Topsail Road. MR. BARRY: Are you out (Inaudible). MR. R. AYLWARD: that far now? My district now, for the information of the bon. the Leader of the Opposition, has moved West in the last election. I was L351 7 May 1985 further East than that. My district now runs from the cross-town arterial and everything South of Topsail Road in as far as Mount .Pearl, including Brookfield Road, the Goulds, Maddox Cove, Blackhead and part of Southside Road.

Unfortunately, in the last election, I lost Shea Heights, but they have quite a capable member in the bon. the Minister of Finance (Dr. C9llins) and I am sure he will look after them. My district was reduced considerably the last time. MR. TULK: There will be no problems this time travelling down in Pogo. MR. R. AYLWARD: No, I had no problems travelling in Fogo and I was really surprised. I am waiting for the book to come out on the results to see how the candidate for this party did around the Clarke Head area, the area that I visited. MR. BARRY: We did very well over there. My colleague did very well. MR. R.

AYLWARD: I understand that the Conservative candidate did very well in that area. MR. BARRY He was disappointed you could not stay any longer. MR. R. AYLWARD: Had I got a chance to visit Fogo during the election, maybe it would have been changed around. I could only get to one part of the bon. member's district. Mr. Speaker, one other thing that was fairly evident in the election campaign was that there was a feeling around that our government R35l

was an anti-labour government. These feelings were promoted by people with special interests, no doubt but, from this Throne Speech, just to show that this government is not .anti-labour, there have been some significant moves already. I am very pleased that we have the hon. the member for Bay of Islands (Mr .. Blanchard) as our Labour Minister. He brings us a lot of expertise in the labour field. These changes were started a little before he got here. The hon. the Minister for Intergovernmental Affairs now (Mr.

Ottenheimer) who was Minister of Justice, the gentleman who represents the district next to mine, started some of these moves. I am very pleased to see that some of these moves have been introduced and I look forward to working more closely w.i th the new Minister of Labour and the labour movement generally to .see if some of the problems cannot be overcome. Since being appointed this department, Agricultural and Development - MR. HISCOCK: Did you really want it? MR. R.

AYLWARD: minist-er of Rural, Northern Yes, I must say that if I had the choice of picking a department to be minister of, I would have put in my request for the Department of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. Several things impressed me considerably about it, but one of the very important parts of my department is the rural development part.

Visiting Rural Development Association and meeting with some of the people involved in the rural development side of my department, staff included, I was very surprised to know that there L352 7 May 1985 are approximately, from time to time, between 1,500 and 2,000 volunteers operating in the rural development movement. They are all very enthusiastic people. They are trying to create jobs for all the small areas of our Province.

The thing that impressed me most was, although they use the make-work projects, their intention is not to sit around and wait for next year's make-work project or next year's six or ten week programme, what they are trying to do is use these programmes jobs. to create permanent I have a note here just to show you some of the statistics: The Rural Development Authority, which is the loan part of our department, in the last quarter of 1984 - 1985, we approved loans totalling some $640,000. This is just in the last quarter of the 1984 - 1985 year.

This $640,000 protected some jobs that already had been created, it created new full-time jobs and considerable part-time jobs, but the total jobs in the last quarter that were effected by our Rural Development Authority was 202 jobs for this Province which, to my mind, is very significant. Some of the types of businesses which the department has supported and is supporting are: fish processing, we loaned some money for